A Virginia wedding photographer just won the legal right to discriminate against LGBTQ+ clients.
Photographer Bob Updegrove challenged the state of Virginia after the passage of a 2020 law which expanded non-discrimination laws to include gender identity and sexual orientation.
No gay couple had ever asked Updegrove to capture their wedding. Nevertheless, the photographer decided to be proactive just in case.
It didn’t matter he hadn't been asked to provide his service to any gay couples, Updegrove argued. The fact that he might someday was apparently sufficient standing for a lawsuit.
A judge initially dismissed the effort, but on appeal the state settled, pledging that they will not enforce their existing non-discrimination laws against Updegrove should he be asked by a gay couple to photograph their wedding… which admittedly now seems even unlikelier than before.
However, the implications of the ruling could be broad – and consequential.
Not a Kodak Moment
Represented by the Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF), Updegrove sought legal reassurance from the state that he would not be compelled to provide his photographic services to same-sex couples getting married.
In the settlement, the state agreed that it won't “force Plaintiffs to offer or provide photography celebrating same-sex weddings,” or “prevent Plaintiffs from asking prospective clients whether they seek photography services celebrating same-sex weddings or engagements.”
Updegrove can also post his anti-LGBTQ policy on his website, should he choose.
A Developing Story
In many ways, this case is an unsurprising one. Updegrove joins a slew of wedding vendors in recent years who've legally challenged anti-discrimination laws for their right to refuse service to LGBTQ+ couples on religious grounds.
In fact, wedding photographers were just about the only wedding vendor left that had yet to challenge anti-discrimination laws in the quest to avoid servicing gay couples.
You’ve probably heard of Jack Phillips, the Christian baker who took his case all the way to the Supreme Court.
But in recent years, there was also a florist, wedding invitation designers, wedding venue owners, and a wedding website designer. These vendors all challenged state anti-discrimination laws on the grounds that they violate sincerely-held religious beliefs that marriage is only between a man and a woman.
Photo Finish
Following the decision, ADF Legal Counsel Johannes Widmalm-Delphonse took a victory lap, declaring that “free speech is for everyone.”
Thanks to rulings like this, he said, “the government can’t force Americans to say things they don’t believe." Moreover, Widmalm-Delphonse says it “will protect countless Americans from government censorship and coercion."
However, supporters of LGBTQ+ rights dispute this characterization. They've called the decision "legalized discrimination," and say that the string of legal victories for Christian vendors has them highly concerned.
Enshrining a legal right to discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation – even if just in a specific industry – could be used as justification for further expansions of such policies, they worry.
With the legal system seemingly prioritizing religious freedom over the rights of the LGBTQ+ community, some fear that marriage equality itself could be next on the chopping block.
But what do you make of this legal ruling? Should Christian wedding vendors have the right to legally discriminate against LGBTQ couples if they hold biblical views on marriage?
139 comments
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CJC
The problem is not that the photographer refused to do the job, it is that he gave a reason for not doing the job that the courts have taken up. Discretion is the better part of valor. People want to make statements about their piety as their reasons for not doing a job. There is no reason to cite your religious beliefs or political leaning.
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Karl G. Ruling
I'm waiting for someone to claim the right to perform human sacrifice as a core part of his religious beliefs. Would that be okay?
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Catherine Green
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Such biased reporting.
Firstly, one does not "win" rights. The court cannot grant one a "right". Rights are derived from God, not government. All a court can (and is required to) do is PROTECT ones rights; the rights one already has. Our forefathers wrote....."endowed BY THEIR CREATOR with certain unalienable rights...." not "endowed by the government''.
Secondly, the rights of one individual do not supersede the rights of another individual where rights conflict. The photographer has just as much right to his freedom to worship as the LGBTQ mental patient has to do whatever it is him and his sick cohort has. One cannot force another to perform a service and call it a "right". That's the definition of "involuntary servitude", or in the extreme, "slavery".
Now looking at it as if I was a LQBGT, if a photographer hated my chosen lifestyle, then why would I want to force him to take my money, thereby making him richer and making his business even more successful??? I think if I was a LQBGT I'd want to support and give my money to another LGTQB photographer and help HIS business grow.
One may argue in legal theory that a corporation may be required to serve anyone as corporations are not human, but a government-created entity, and must abide by the regulations or laws of the government who created them. But all the issues I've seen recently over wedding cakes and wedding photographers have been complaints against small proprietorships who are running their business as individuals, not corporations.
I do not and will not provide services to those that I do not want to, either in the church or in my small business, and I owe no one a reason why. I am a free human being, endowed by my creator according to my forefathers, and no one is entitled to my work, either paid for or free. I do not relinquish any Constitutional rights by performing labor. For instance, if the cops want to come search my place of business, they still need a search warrant as the Constitution requires it. I haven't given up my Fourth Amendment right, nor my First Amendment right, by performing work for pay.
And that's just the way I see it and will do it. And I really don't care who doesn't like it.
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Kenneth Kling
Every business owner should have the right to refuse to do business with anyone. I would think that in light of this man's refusal due to his Religious convictions, you'd simply find another vendor. I also refuse to believe that folks in the alphabet community wouldn't have a list of vendors that have/or can provide services to that community.
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Michael Hunt
Depending on where you live, you might not have vendors in your area willing to provide services to the LGBTQ community. What then?
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Keith
Following the decision, ADF Legal Counsel Johannes Widmalm-Delphonse took a victory lap, declaring that “free speech is for everyone.” Johannes Widmalm-Delphonse, you say “Free speech is for everyone” Does that mean free speech for LGBTQ+ people? Evidently, not. My question is: Is there freedom of human rights and equal rights for the LGBTQ+ community? However, it okay for people of small businesses to use their religious beliefs to discriminate against the LGBTQ+ community even after the state of Virginia’s passage of a 2020 law that expanded non-discrimination laws to include gender identity and sexual orientation. I assume some people don't think the laws apply to everyone. I'm a minister and I think some religious groups take things way too far. Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it right. I'm sure people don't like everything about you and that's okay. If I had a small business my priority would be to sell my product, make a profit and grow my business. Not to complain about someone's sexuality. What they do in the privacy of their own home has nothing to do with me or my business. I would be afraid to treat a possible customer, the way you have treated the LGBTQ+ community. Sometimes word of mouth can be the best advertisement and recommendation you can get and that word of mouth doesn't exclude any group of people. You know gay people have straight friends, families, and allies. Sometimes word of mouth recommendations can be the difference between a profitable growing business and one that closes due to negative press. By the way, I think God calls on us all to be good ambassadors and to treat others with respect and dignity, for love is greater than hate. Besides who are we to judge, that's between God and each individual person.
Blessings, Rev. Keith
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CJC
The problems arise when people use their decision as a political or religious statement. You don't want to bake a cake or work at an event you don't agree with then politely decline. Too busy to bake a cake or photograph a wedding? Don't use the opportunity for making a pious self-aggrandizing holier-than-thou statement. No one gets hurt by being kind instead of hurtful. 30 years as a wedding photographer...
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Glenn Anderson
Any "private" business should be able to refuse service to anyone for any reason. When they lose business because of the backlash and end up out of business, so much the better.
However, a public business shouldn't have that option and should be open for all
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Kathleen Virginia Howard
The Bible was written by men. A group of men decided what went in it. It’s a lovely book of myths and fiction.
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Lionheart
Due to its horrific nature I’m not so sure it’s a lovely book, Lady Kathleen, but I do get your point 🤗
🦁❤️
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
This hits home for me as a black woman child raised with gay family members. No rights should be impeded. You see, I saw how family was treated before gay rights, after and now.. seems the same.. hatred filled. So please do not take my unbiased opinions to heart. I seek knowledge and understanding from all present.
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David A Foreman
Every equality minded business everywhere should refuse service to Fundamentalist Evangelicals and Trump supporters on the basis of religious freedom!!!
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Rev. J. Blaine
Does this open the door for businesses to refuse service to Christians? Perhaps, based on the desire to only provide service for people that live in reality rather than fantasy and fiction?
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Jennifer Lee
Well, that is odd since photographers are not obligated to take every job that comes their way in the first place.
Just like an employer could not employ an applicant if they just don’t feel like it… As long as they do not say oh I don’t want to because you’re gay. So basically the court has given, “wedding photographers,” permission to say “I don’t want to take your job because you’re gay.”
That is just insanely mean
Further, on that note, it seems it would be just as logical to give people permission to refuse doing business with people they know follow Trump. Or people they know, voted in a bunch of Republicans to run their state.
… Will now that I’ve said that, I think it would actually be more logical to allow people to deny doing business with someone so that they could state out loud. The reason for the denial is that the person is a Trumper or a republican.
Anyways, when is the last time you heard of a photographer being forced to take a job they didn’t want to take or could not take on?
I’d say the precedence for pure ignorance in Virginia has been set
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JEROME THOMAS BABOR JR
Why would you want to hire a baker, photographer to provide a service if they didn't want to anyway regardless of the reason? Would you expect the best quality if they didn't want to do it? Pick your battles that really matter!
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Jennifer Lee
Exactly!!! The court is merely giving permission to the photographer to state the reason as specifically being that the couple is gay!
The precedence for ignorance has been set
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Julieann Isbell
Also eating pork and shrimp is an abomination. Wearing two types of clothing is an abomination. Planting two types of seeds next to each other is an abomination. Says you can rape a woman, you just need to give her father money and marry her. To take your drunk and disobedient son to the elders and stone him. That being left handed is a sin. Which sin do you do? It also says very frequently to worry about your own sin. Yeshua hung out with the whores and thieves. Unless you are the creator, you should worry about your own plank in your eye before pointing out your brother's.
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Samuel Puckett
The couple should not want to be photographed by someone who believes differently and plenty of photographers who would be glad to photograph them with same beliefs.
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David Bobb
I don't discriminate, lets start with that. Kudos to the courts for recognizing that the government should not be allowed to interfere with someone operating a business. The governing bodies have overstepped their bounds time and again. This whole lgbtq nonsense is pure garbage. How many times have we seen on media outlets this genderqueer philosophy, mental disorder, etc., etc., mock GOD? They force feed this to our kids, force-feed us in daily life, and if someone says something they're called homophobic. I, for one, am tired of this nonsense being pushed into my life. Every person has the right to love whomever they choose, just as every person has the right to their religious beliefs. One group of people shouldn't be held to different standards. If those people would be more in the "live and let live" belief, Im sure their problems would go away
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Samuel Puckett
The couple should not want to be photographed by someone whom has different beliefs when there are plenty of photographers who would be glad to have there business and the photographer can photo who ever and loose lot of doe at the same time.
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Michael Hunt
There was no couple asking for his services. He took this to court over the possibility of having to provide services to same-sex couples.
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Donald E Boyce II
By honoring the decisions of non LGBTQ+ you are thereby honoring anti-discrimination laws by not utilizing discrimination on religion. After all the LGBTQ+ couples could just use a different photography service instead of trying to force other people's hand thereby becoming a discriminator themselves. I'm always available and open to discussion. Yours truly, Minister Donald E Boyce II
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Jennifer Lee
Oh, that is how you read the situation… Interesting
I read it as the photographer was trying to be a victim and therefore took the situation to court.
Thanks for pointing out that it could’ve been the couple that felt they were the victim by not being able to hire the photographer that they wanted
In both directions, if one does not want to work with the other than the others should feel blessed that the one who was reluctant told them upfront
Maybe in the way it was told is why it went to court maybe the photographer had to be nasty about it and say I don’t want to work with you because you’re gay?
That would explain why our court systems would have to be bogged down by something so ignorant as setting a law for precedence, that a photographer for weddings doesn’t have to work with gay people… As if the photographer was ever forced to.
Evidently the photographer got ugly about it, and had to take their rejection to a point of being nasty. Will the court supports the photographer being nasty
I’ll bet you they’ll be a whole new slew of businesses popping up of gas in trick photography companies
Hallelujah
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David Hinckley
Because a lot of us are not judgmental people and just want to live our lives according to what we believe, even if it means some people get butt-hurt and decide that what THEY believe is how EVERYONE should live. Boy, I hate judgmental people, I hate all of them.
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
Had post an answer I gave her to the entire blog. It's something to think on.
First, I agree with statements as it pertains to business. It's no different than a restaurant refusing service. Secondly, first sexuality.. next will be race, creed, gender, favorite colors etc. Looks like a recipe for so much more than discrimination. I'll say it this way; It's like refusing proper care or living/housing, and/or acknowledgment because we got ordained online and not through years of school. Some may view us as half baked ministers. What happens if the ULC starts doing the same.. what then shall we do? Blessings Asé
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Jennifer Lee
if a photographer does not want to take a job, there was never some wedding photographer police standing there, telling them they had to take the job in the first place
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Mathew Mowbray
"you want me to photograph a gay wedding, ho let me see, sorry I am not available for that date"
How hard was that? but no you had to waste the court's time, what a tool.
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Rolando Couce
And transgenders show hate towards straight people theses people are hypocritical
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Michael Hunt
I know plenty of trans people and none of them hate straight people. They hate transphobic people which makes sense since they hate the transgender community and paint them as evil pedophiles trying to destroy America despite zero evidence to support that belief.
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Lionheart
Those few trans people that you know is of course a small data point of the worlds trans population to back up and support your argument, Sir Michael. I wonder how much of that is true for the rest of them?🤔
🦁❤️
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James Riggle-Johnson
Personally, I wouldn’t want to do business with someone who thinks I am an abomination, but this opens the door for people to refuse service to an entire group of people based on their sexual orientation. How long before restaurant owners refuse to serve LGBTQ people? Will that be okay? Based on this decision, I think it would be.
What would be said if a Christian photographer should refuse to take pictures of a Bar Mitzvah? According to this that might be acceptable. Discrimination of any kind should be unacceptable, but we find ways to exclude certain people we despise for one reason or another. We need to stop living that way and work together.
Should the photographer in this story begin to lose business because of his deeply held religious beliefs, you can bet he will cry religious persecution.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
the cristo-fascists are at it again, making it about themselves, earning their throw-down martyr card. keep it up, eventually enough people will get fed up and laws will start to be passed, keeping religion out of the public view. once that happens then they can all scurry around in the dark, damming everyone they want and still feel superior, if not completely unseen.
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ServantOfJudgement
You'll have to ditch the constitution for that to happen.
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ServantOfJudgement
Could a photographer in opposition to same sex marriage do their very best at taking quality photographs of a homosexual marriage? Could a Baker do their very best? Could a leftie do their very best for a President Trump event? What about an pro abortionist doing their best for a party to celebrate the striking of R vs W? If we're honest and realistic we would answer no. You can not put your heart into something you disagree with.
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Patricia Ann Gross
People who believe in reproductive choice are not pro-abortion. I personally would never have one but I support a woman's right to choose. Other than that one comment, I agree with your rationalle, and can't figure out why the guy isn't clever enough to have "other things" to do that day.
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Dent L. Sweem
I can refuse to do anything I think is wrong irregardless of what others think feel believe. It's called a conscious.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
It’s an empty victory that’s meaningless. There was no customer, no one was harmed this is just meaningless victory by a Christian.
While a few Christins might be overjoyed with an empty victory everyone else looking at this is kjust seeing the hate Christians have against people Christians don’t like. And Christians wonder why people don’t like Christians and want nothing to do with religion.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
So, much for the followers of the prince of peace and god of love. So much hate, it's unbelievable.
I wouldn't want someone who hated me, to take wedding photos,or make my wedding cake,
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David Bobb
how does not serving someone equal hate? couldnt he just prefer to not deal with that community because he is being forced?
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Dennis Chevalier
I agree.!!!!!!
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Dennis Chevalier
Very true hate only does one thing it creates more hate let's stop the hate please I beg everyone stop hating just because you can
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Lionheart
I wonder if those classed as heretics at the time of the religious inquisition saw that god as being the Prince of Peace, and God of love, Sir Matthew? There was lots of hate back then by supposed Christian’s. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Colleen McAllister
This would be an ok decision if this photographer also refuses to work for divorced, non-virginal, or any other type of sinner.
Lionheart, skin color is in a different category as one really can't change race, nor is that considered a sin.
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Dennis Chevalier
He can refuse service for whatever he wants he can accept some things and not others it is his choice you cannot dictate it for him or her
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Michael Hunt
Can he refuse service to a couple because of their race or gender? If not, why is it okay to refuse service based on someone's sexuality?
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Lionheart
He can refuse services to anyone, Sir Michael, and doesn’t have to disclose the reasons as to why. That’s his right under the US Constitution. It’s what freedom and liberty is all about.
🦁❤️
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Michael Hunt
There are literally anti-discrimination laws in place to prevent someone from discriminating against a person because of the color of their skin. We have the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans with Disabilities Act to ensure such discrimination is illegal. So no, businesses cannot deny service to anyone for any reason. There has to be a legitimate reason for doing so or else you're gonna get sued. https://huckleberry.com/blog/right-to-refuse-service/
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Evone Payton Banks (Minister non denominational)
I agree with both statements as it pertains to business. It's no different than a restaurant refusing service. Secondly, the responder is correct also, first sexuality.. race, creed, gender,.. looks like a recipe for so much more than discrimination. I'll say it this way. It's like refusing proper care or living/housing, and/or acknowledgment because we got ordained online and not through years of school. Some may view us as half baked ministers. What happens if the ULC starts doing the same.. what then. Love to you both. Blessings Asé
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Theresa C. Marquess
Judge not lest ye be judged. Whether or not I agree with another person's sexual orientation, politics, or lifestyle, I do my best to be objective and stay neutral. The bible teaches us not to stand in judgement of others. Before anyone suggests it, yes, I would have served on a jury if the need arose. Still, not sitting in judgement until every reasonable doubt of innocence would be erased.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I refuse to ever sit on a trial. I will.make it personally known when asked I will not pass judgement of guilty if the evidence is very clear the perp is guilty.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Have you ever been called for jury duty? It is your duty to serve, or you'd better give good enough reasons for a judge to dismiss you. If you don't you'll receive your designation as a juror. I was one of 100 prospective jurors on one occasion. The judge must have heard every excuse imaginable. Very few people were excused. Those who said that they absolutely couldn't serve at that time, were reassigined to another court date. Just hope you don't get selected for a case where the defendant is gulity!
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Lionheart
I agree with Lady Theresa. If you’re on a jury on a case that involves child abuse, and it becomes obvious from all the presented facts that the defendant is guilty, it would be to your shame, and to the victims horror, if you didn’t find the defendant guilty when all the other jurors do.
🦁❤️
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Theresa C. Marquess
I totally agree with you, Lionheart! Every situation has to be handled individually.
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Minister Wilson
Hello Everyone,
Should Christian wedding vendors have the right to legally discriminate against LGBTQ couples if they hold biblical views on marriage?
First, there is no such thing as a "christian wedding business", there are wedding vendors claiming to be a christian.This is not merely a distinction without a difference,and it is becoming increasingly more obvious that these individuals would like to be treated as they identify. (the irony is not lost)
See, I have mixed views about this because I think it is a slippery slope. Not long ago the Supreme court ruled that Native Americans had no protections for smoking peyote as part of their religious ceremony.
It is widely understood that honor killings or animal sacrifices are illegal in most States and Cities, irrespective of it being part of a person's religious beliefs.
At this point, some might claim that some of these actions are considered "harmful" but how then are we defining harm.
While I don't think anyone should be to forced to take pictures of a person being hung, or bake a cake for white supremacist, these actions are not usually considered legal or protected speech.
So, while religious freedom is acceptable in theory, in practicality, religion is being used to discriminate against a protected class of people even though religion itself is supposed to be a member of a protected class.
What makes strongly held beliefs of a supremacist invalid, while strongly held beliefs for a person claiming to be religious valid, in the other respect? Harm, perhaps?
So, if a person claiming some manner of religious exemption seeks to discriminate then it contradicts the rationale for not discriminating against religion. In other words they should not be able to use their protected class status to go after other protected classes.
I think States should accommodate these business with special licensing which requires owners to post their views so other consumers could decide if they would like to do business with that establishment. Huh, I wonder then would the "religious business" owner then cry foul for being treated differently?
So, yeah, “the government can’t force Americans to say things they don’t believe.." they can force business to post things they do believe might cause harm to consumers...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Danny D. Maynard
"No shirt! No shoes! No service!" -- is a health issue, and not a religious one!
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Minister Wilson
Yep---And
I'm having trouble understanding your point.
If you would be so kind as comparing "No shirt! No shoes! No service!" with the legal right to discriminate against LGBTQ+ clients I would appreciate it.
Because right now it sounds like your saying if the LGBTQ+ clients wore shirts and shoes they would get service.
If you are attermpting to claim that a privately owned business can essentila do what they want or discriminate against whoever they want, then why can't the owner then discriminate against Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Indians?
Think it Over, Minister Wilson
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Patricia Ann Gross
Novel thought. Thank you. You make so much sense it is scary. If the photographer had to post a preference for an evangelical Christian model wedding, then most LGBQIA+ and their allies would bypass them on the list of wedding photography providers. It makes me wonder if the same photographer would photograph a Jewish, Muslim or Hindu wedding, especially if the price was right.
On the other hand, I don't like the notion of me having to "out" my views on any given subject just ot advertise my business.
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Minister Wilson
Patricia Ann Gross
I understand it is an uncomfortable notion, yet it is no worse than posting a health inspections for a restaurant.
Spending taxpayer money to continue to defend these tailor made hypothetical cases (i.e. not ever happened or a real client involved) all the way to the Supreme Court is not sustainable or wise due to setting or establishing legal precedents.
If an establishment does not serve LGBT members based on the owners "religious beliefs" then they should be required to notify other consumers by posting those "beliefs" just like health inspections A, B, C, X, whatever have you.
If those owners fail to "post" No serve to Gays" then they can be fined for ever day out of compliance and if ever an LGBTQ person was turned down for service without the business posting beforehand then the business can be sued based on their non-compliance rather than "religious Beliefs"
We need to be Smarter,
Thank you for your response,
Minister Wilson
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Mark Gilgen
BOY for a religion that preaches NOT to Judge people you all are sure doing it. It is AGAINST his and the BIBLES beliefs so he should have that right. just like they have the right to be the way they are.
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Perry N Nash
That type of behavior is also against the teachings of Christ and The Father. I am surely amazed at the number of people here who call themselves minister and reverend but yet accept the behavior of "abominations".
"And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet".Romans 1:27 KJV
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Perry N Nash Not all religions bash gays or see them as "sinful" . The bible also calls left handedness sinful and evil
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
The Christian faith doesn't condemn being gay. It is practicing it that is condemned.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Which matters not to those of us who don't recognize the bible or its God
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Minister Butterworth
Nathaniel,
Read genesis. God created all, up to and including mankind. There was none before.
You have the right to believe what you want to believe. I hope you do the research on your own beliefs. All the talkers don't talk about that.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
I did my own research , and studying the bible, and I personally see it as all mythology, less useful than others as the god of the bible is evil in my eyes, he kills kids for what their parents do, he delights in babies being dashed on rocks during war, he hurt the Egyptians for what their rulers did , he killed Aron because Moses was "to close to him" so when I understood this that the Christians have lied about everything including real world history. I formally renounced all ties to that god , thankfully I was never baptized as a kid.
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Minister Butterworth
Nathaniel,
Tell me where in the Bible it says left-handedness is bad.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
I stand corrected it don't say that, but its still of no concern of mine as my religion don't recognize the bible or its God or any of his rules and the origin of my faith predates the Hebrews and their God
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Dave Shed
Good question Minister Raymond. People want to quote things and reword items in the bible, only to find out, what they quote is misleading and incorrect.
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Martin L Stigleman
You should maybe learn a bit about your own religion before you start throwing it out at others, huh?
There are absolutely NO passages in the Bible where Christ condemns anyone for homosexuality. NONE! In fact, the only things Christ condemns anyone for are Pride, Sloth, Hate, and PASSING JUDGEMENT ON OTHERS.
Oh...and not loving and accepting your neighbor...that ones in there too!
In fact, if you look at the teachings of Christ, you will find that, essentially he is preaching against most aspects of what Modern Christianity has become. You know, that whole thing about feeding the poor, aiding the needy, welcoming refugees,
Instead, Christians have the Old Testament and New Testament conflict to fall back on to ensure they can claim everything they don't hate is evil...and I've heard it used so many times it is sickening. The coming of Christ changed all the things in the Old Testament that you didn't like, so now you don't have to follow them...BUT, if what Jesus teaches DOESNT work for you in your situation, then you can just disregard that and go with the OT
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
You must take Scripture literally. He mentions those who practice abnormal sex sleeping with the same sex. So don't gaslight. I can't stand it when so called people think they know the Bible when you're probably a liberal Christian or not one at all. More like in the category of RINOS. So before you start stalking use your common sense.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
How do you know who wrote that? When? Why? The bi le is man made a few hundred years after Jesus lived. It was done by a corrupt church with its own agenda which was to control and manipulate the people. Those phrases ring of one of the church's edited ad ons. That is why people should always read with an open and inquisitive mind while never taking allegories literally.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I know who wrote it because the hurch teaches us that the Word of God is inspired by God through man. So therefore God is the Author not man.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Then you are also saying the atrocities committed by that same church were God inspired. The inquisitions with the torture and murder of anyone who didn't tow the catholic line. Add in all the thousands of completely innocent people who suffered and died. Did God inspire that? It was all done by the same church that published your bible.
Man's sins and atrocities are their own. God has nothing to do with the things man does to other men. He does not even judge us. We judge ourselves when we review the life we just left to judge for ourselves how well or not we fulfilled the life chart we wrote before we reincarnated again. And, our sins being ours, means that Jesus never had to die to take them or anything such. He was a mission life entity that came to bring 8n the new covenant with the all loving God and not the jealous and spiteful god of the old testament. He survived the crucifixion and lived a long life in what is now France. The fact that he had a human and divine side does not diminish him or his role at all.
Conservative christians are still victims of church manipulation. You are raised and taught to fear anything different. I have no such fear and prefer spiritual truths.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Keith Allen Steele Eash and I eat pork mixed with cheese that is first offered to Pagan Gods, spirit and daemons as a sacrament, my right under freedom of religion, and my religion don't recognize the bible or its God
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ServantOfJudgement
Martin,
There is a fundamental principle lost by unbelievers with regards to what the Bible says. That is this, if an apostle said it, Jesus is responsible for them saying it. That means that when Paul said no to homosexual relationships, Jesus said it. Paul merely repeated it.
Jesus is in alignment with the old testament allegedly containing a "mean" version of God which is untrue. The God of the old testament is in alignment with the God of the new testament for they are the same. Jesus is not the long haired gentle giant hippie the atheist paints him as. While he was here his actions and words generated enough hate by others to kill him. He slapped people around when he was angered.When he returns, he's going to put down billions of people that have gone evil. Billions.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Again, the bible is a manmade product. It was changed and edited so many times that very little original text remains if it ever was there. It should not be taken literally or as a stand alone source 9f anything. Everything needs to be read and taken into consideration. That thought scares those afraid to open their eyes. The more fearful a person, the more dedicated bible thumper they are.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Wrong. Do some research. You are very historically inaccurate and naive. Some of the oldest texts of the New Testament goes back to 300-500 years. All of the texts are very similar.
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Minister Butterworth
Martin,
Have you actually read the Bible? Maybe you should practice what you preach. Read gen19:1-11. Levit 18:22 and 20-13. 1st kings14:24 and 15:12. That's old testament. And since you asked, from the new testament: romans1:18-32.1st cor 6:9-11.1st tim1:8-10. Jude 7. I certainly hope this clear things up for you a little bit.
You Martin, as well as all those who hate/bash Christians out there, you have the freedom to hate us...Christians. it is your right to do so at your leisure. But please do your research beforehand so we wont have to correct you...
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Dave Shed
Jesus merely stated what God intended for marriage to be. Between man and woman. Matthew 19.1-12
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
The bible doesn't say anything about lesbians though.
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James Richard Munro
Oh ? It doesn't actually use the word "Lesbians." What it does say is, If women lay with women as man lays with women, it is considered an act of perversion. Seems to me that the Bible is saying, lesbians are perverts.
This is supposed to be a religious sight. Why are we even discussing these perverts?
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Michael Hunt
Not all religions view homosexuality as a sin or perversion...
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
But Christianity does.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Because backward attitudes like that presume the right to judge and condemn others.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Lesbians. The heck it doesn't. Anyone, that means anyone who commits immoral sexual acts are judged. That would include lesbians, whores, etc. You have a poor understanding of Scripture.
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Julieann Isbell
Also eating pork and shrimp is an abomination. Wearing two types of clothing is an abomination. Planting two types of seeds next to each other is an abomination. Says you can rape a woman, you just need to give her father money and marry her. To take your drunk and disobedient son to the elders and stone him. That being left handed is a sin. Which sin do you do? It also says very frequently to worry about your own sin. Yeshua hung out with the whores and thieves. Unless you are the creator, you should worry about your own plank in your eye before pointing out your brother's.
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Minister Butterworth
Julieann,
Eating pork and shrimp is ok in the Bible. As well as dressing in whatever you want etc... that was in the old testament where we lived under the Law of God. Since God sent his son Jesus to die for ALL OF US, we have been living under the Grace of God. This changed everything. All the haters and bashers got a few company lines that makes it sound like their really onto something, but if you read the Bible you will see that its just the uneducated ramblings of hate filled persons. I encourage you to read the Bible and see for yourself. Could be the best decision of your life.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
I encourage you to read gnostic christain texts then also. The bible is inaccurate in many places because it is manmade full of corrupt men's motives. The real key is to take that 8nto consideration.
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Minister Butterworth
Consider this,
God is the Almighty God. All knowing and all powerful. So men translated and rewrote. Not important at all. Do you really believe that God would allow his message to be corrupted? The message of love and salvation is as strong as ever. There will always be persons who doubt, as well as those who fear the truth. You don't have to be one of them. The choice is yours.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
That is a bunch of BS. Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost means one and the same thing .
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ServantOfJudgement
Mark,
Actually atheists preach that the bible preaches not to judge. It appears as if they know the meaning of the document from a snippet better than those who's study it daily.
Allow me to clear this confusion up yet again. When the Bible says not to do something, a person isn't judging when they repeat what the Bible says. For example: Do not commit murder means don't murder someone. If you see someone murder someone, you're not judging that person, you're stating they've done something the Bible says not to do.
The Bible says no to homosexual relationships. Nobody's judging anyone, they're just following and repeating what the Bible says.
You don't have to believe the Bible, follow it or care about it. Nobody does. For those that want to follow it, what is it to you?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
"Because the bible says ..." Is the deepest rabbit hole that has ever 3xisted. Cults, fanatics and zealots who use their own interpretation use that phrase all the time to try to justify their own actions done "in God's name."
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Dennis Chevalier
Hey it's not about judgment it's about freedom to choose and if I choose not to help days that's my chilies whether it's damned or blessed it doesn't matter cuz you don't get to make that decision only the Lord God does and that's the point I'm not saying that's my position I am just saying that what God judge and not fellow man
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Edmund E Yates
The implication that they have a "right" to be the way they are is entirely false, I feel like I need to get on my tub and start preaching about this situation. These creations that God made, have made a choice to be the way they are. I will say that having a choice does not give you a right to do wrong. I am not trying to force my convictions about being a Christian on anyone. I chose to be a Christian and to abide by the rules and regulations of the holy Bible on the other side of the corn these people have chose to be an abomination as it is stated in the Bible. Yet they claim that they are believers in God and they claim that they love God but God clearly states that he hates sin same sex marriages are a sinful Union. Just that plain and simple. I'm going to end this here because this could go into a 30 to 40 minute conversation so to end it they have a choice they made it but it is not all right again I am not trying to persuade them and influence them to become nothing more than a servant of the living God and conform to the rules and the regulation that are in the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Amen amen amen and it is so.
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Dallas Burnell Fly
The right to choose my sexual orientation I think not. God made me the person that I am. God does not make mistakes.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Proof of my previous reply about fanatics and zealots using "the bible says" to try to justify their own hatred and bigotry.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
According to the Holy Ghost (the Holy Ghost, was the Holy Ghost, when it impregnated the Virgin Mary, but the Roman Catholic Church, during the 1970’s, changed its Holy Ghost’s name, to the Holy Spirit, because worshipping spirits are not as silly, as worshipping ghosts) so I, as a ULC Bishop emeritus, pledge to excommunicate any homophobic minister in my congregation, once it becomes public knowledge that such a ULC minister, hates the gay.
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Lionheart
That’s the beauty of living in a country that has freedom and liberty. Many have died so that we retain this freedom. We have the freedom to decide whether we want to give of our talents to Black, White, Yellow, Gay, Trans, Straight, Christian, Wiccan, Atheist, Islamist, Democrat, Republican, etc,.
Don’t you just love freedom of choice? I know I do 🤗
🦁❤️
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Tecla Caryl Loup
So how is this different than refusing to serve Black people at a luncheon counter?
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Nothing, just Christians sowing hate at another target.
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Lionheart
Don’t you like freedom of choice, Tecla? There is very little freedom of choice if one is an Islamist, or living in North Korea, or China. Is that what you are used to?
I’m white, if someone refuses to serve me at a lunch counter I’m “free” to go and eat elsewhere. If I was “woke” I might get upset, but fortunately I’m not. Thank you for your comment 🤗
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Strongly different if you clearly think about it.
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Michael Hunt
Black people can't change the color of their skin just like a gay person can't change who they are attracted to so it's actually not that different at all.
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Martin L Stigleman
Please, explain how it is different, for those if us who don't try to justify our hate. Is it because serving Black people at a lunch counter isn't against YOUR religion?
You know, there are religions that differ from yours. Would it be okay if you were required to kneel when you entered a store? How mad are you going to be if you are waiting in line at the BMV for an hour, and just as you get to the front, the attendant walks away for their 1 hour obeisance because of their religion? Friday evening, your electricity goes out, so you are fine with waiting until Sunday morning for it to be repaired, since it is against the techs religion to work from sundown Friday to Sunrise on Sunday?
FYI...There are also religions that claim dark skin is a condemnation by God. Are you okay with them not serving blacks?
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William Waugh
Just another weirdo going off 'cause he can. These days it does not matter.
Im sure there are plenty of ministers here thru the Monastery that will be more than happy to fill the gap.
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Lionheart
What is it that makes him a weirdo in your opinion, Sir William? Is he a weirdo because his actions and thought structure don’t align with yours? We are all different you know. Are we all weirdo’s to you? Just asking in case my thoughts differ from yours.🤗
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Rev. MichaelRS
I like the hysterical (as in an emotional unhinged reaction) ending of the article how "some fear that marriage equality itself could be next on the chopping block".
That is not even the same area of argument and it falls under putting the genie back in the bottle.
Other than the radical islamist taking over America in the next 50 years, with the help of ignorant and complacent Americans, there is no remote scenario where the right for same-sex couples to marry is going to be reversed.
No one is going to stop gay people from marrying and having those that are WILLING participants help them celebrate that occasion either by being friends and family in attendance of the wedding or service providers.
There are plenty of straight service providers, such as caterers and photographers and such, that have no religious or moral stance on same-sex marriage and are happy to provide their services as long as the money is good.
Not to mention the gay service providers. Why not support ones own community in that regard. Even if you force the person to provide you the service, you think that's going to change their mind about you? You think that's going to make them love gay people and start marching in Pride parades. It's going to have the exact opposite effect.
And the only thing lawsuits against people like that Colorado baker do is galvanized the more conservative communities and validate their opinions that the alphabet community is "dangerous" to them and society at large
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“…. there is no remote scenario where the right for same-sex couples to marry is going to be reversed.”
Really? After what was done with Roe vs Wade?
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Rev. MichaelRS
The decision was that there really was no right to abortion under the federal Constitution and so the issue was turned back to the states where it belonged and never should have left.
Even Ruth Bader Ginsburg was not a fan of the reasoning behind the 1973 decision of Roe versus Wade.
But your statement implies that the justices make a really really just based on what they feel about and pay no attention to the law or the legal nuance of each case.
As an aside; all those people in the Alphabet Community these days that are "Marching for Palestine", you would be killed within 24 hours in Gaza or the West Bank.
And while one cannot be same-sex married in ISRAEL, they do recognize those marriages and civil unions done abroad. And it is the only country in the Middle East in which Pride parades and festivities are held without fear of being beaten up by a mob, put in prison or put the death.
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Michael Hunt
And what is stopping the Supreme Court from hearing a case on same-sex marriage and ruling that there is no right to same-sex marriage in the constitution? Clarence Thomas has publicly said just that. https://www.politico.com/news/2022/06/24/thomas-constitutional-rights-00042256
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well even if the Supreme Court does, rightly, return the question of same-sex marriage back to the states, my statement still stands.
In this day and age there is no state that it's going to put that genie back in the bottle.
Oh there might be the odd conservative politician here and there that might hoot and holler about it to appeal to their base to get elected to some minor office, but that'll be about it.
Actually even if they got elected to congress and put firth a bill there wouldn't be enough support for it to go anywhere. But they can still turn to their base and say hey I tried. It's all showmanship in some cases.
Just like when the Republicans were screaming and yelling about repealing Obamacare and they would bring it up and there would be a vote but it'd be at a time when there was no chance it would pass because they were in the minority. But they ran on that and so they could go tell their constituents they tried.
But what happened when they had that majority for a couple of years? Nobody went forward with the repeal of Obamacare.
The other funny aspect of it would be that if some Congressperson put a bill like that forward there would be all the alphabet community would get together and there'd be all these marches and great waling and gnashing a teeth over it when from a very beginning it was going to be dead anyway.
Each side really likes to put on their shows.
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Michael Hunt
Several conservative states still have in their constitutions and laws that marriage can only be between a man and a woman. Should Obergefell be overturned, those laws would immediately go into effect. This is despite attempts in those states since 2015 to have that wording removed.
If you seriously think there aren't members of congress chomping at the bit to repeal same-sex marriage protections, you're simply not paying attention.
Republicans have taken a number of steps to repeal the Affordable Care Act in full or in part and have had some success in doing so, including removing any penalties for those who do not comply with the law. This includes when they had the majority in congress.
You're being incredibly naive if you think the Republicans are all talk and no action.
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Rev. MichaelRS
I just don't think the totality of the social tide in this country would allow for it.
But whatever. As far as I'm concerned Mr. Happy only travels where he was purpose built to go. So it's not an issue for me.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Seriously? The right of same-sex marriage hangs on one court case to be revoked. Just like abortion, same-sex couples are waiting for the supreme court to reverse their decision. The LGBTQ community is not considered a protected class. It does not mention it in the constitution, and people use that against us.
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Dennis Chevalier
Good for him I am so sick and tired of groups with a special interest to be in the news instead of just letting the photographer say no everyone has a right to refuse patrons it's on almost every shop every business why because you're gay do you think you have more rights than anyone else?
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Michael Hunt
Would it be okay to refuse services to someone because of the color of their skin? Why would it be okay to deny someone services to someone because of their sexual preferences?
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Harvey Marianne
I like you replie. I agree.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“…. everyone has a right to refuse patrons it's on almost every shop every business…..”
Really? Next time you go out take a picture of that sign in every shop you visit.
Oh, wait! The Punctuation Shop must have refused service to you.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Dennis Chevalier. Then your fine with me banning christians from my shop and refusing all service and help to them?
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Dennis Chevalier
If that is your desire then yes it doesn't matter if I don't like it it is your right you are in America
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Members of the LGBTQIA2S+ community do NOT want “special rights.” They want EQUAL RIGHTS. You know, like being able to hold hands in public without risking their lives. Like the right to be treated in medical facilities when the only one in their city is owned by a “religious” organization.
Your hatred of them belies your title of “minister.” More like “SINister.”
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Echo
Definitely find someone else. They want to have a small market reach by offending people, they got it. Love it when a service provider shows their hatred. Leave a review if you must, as to warn others this photographer isn't safe for lgbtq+.
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James Riggle-Johnson
And then the photographer will scream that he’s being cancelled because of his religious beliefs. It’s only okay for him to discriminate, and not for others. It's sad.
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Nicholas J Page
Who needs that particular photographer anyway
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Patricia Ann Gross
Especially when he isn't clever enough to say, "Sorry, but I'm booked that day.", or "Sorry, but I just booked a world cruise starting the week before, and I will be gone for three months."
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Donald R. Wooster
Exactly! Simple, isn't it? There are plenty of wedding service providers perfectly willing and happy to serve the needs of the lgbtq.............community. Unfortunately, said community seems to feel the need to start a ruckus whenever any provider chooses not to participate in their celebrations, or haven't you yet realized that the entire world revolves around THEM?? I'm quite sure that any services they might need, from pictures to cake, could be found within their own community, and they would be supporting their own financially. Problem is, that would mean living your life quietly, with no drama, but, as everyone knows, DRAMA is what they thrive on.
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Michael Hunt
You do realize that no LGBTQ couple asked him to photograph their ceremony. He preemptively sued despite never having a case of needing to turn someone away. They're just using their religion as an excuse to get around anti-discrimination laws.
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jpmcdunn
The phone book is full of wedding photographers! Find another one!
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Reverend Andrew
this not the case of finding another one ! He was never asked to take any pictures of a gay wedding ! He wanted to make sure that the state would allow him be the Racist Bigot that he is but use religion as a base to say to the world " HEY LOOK AT ME I'M A RACIST AND A BIGOT " and the state of Virginia say's I can be !
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James Mounts
In Virginia, mother of the Bill of Rights, you have the right to live whatever life you choose. You don't have, however, the right to force others to sanction your choice.
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Perry N Nash
The lefts sure make a mockery
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Perry N Nash. Being a leftist is the protected right of any American ,and on the side note this ruling lets me and others refuse service and help to Christians now
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Lionheart
I agree, Sir Nathaniel? Being a leftist, or a rightist, is the protected right of any American that loves the Constitution.
🦁❤️
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Danny D. Maynard
Better to be mocked than to be a sinful criminal!
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Lionheart
Sin is of course a human construct.
Where is the crime, Sir Daniel?
🦁❤️
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
This is not racism. You need to get an understanding of racism.
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David Bobb
where in the article does it mention race or bigotry? the man wants to keep pace with his religious beliefs. The state is trying to force him to do business against his creeds. thats where the wrong falls
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They will also have to accept others right to choose also. And some will choose to not associate with her also. Just as she may post her right to not service certain people, they can also post their right not to serve her and her kind.