Well, this is one way to end Pride Month.
In a 6-3 decision, the United States Supreme Court delivered a crushing blow to LGBTQ+ rights, ruling that a Christian web designer can legally discriminate against same-sex couples.
The case ends an eight-year legal battle between Lorie Smith, an evangelical web designer who believes that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, and the state of Colorado, which has anti-discrimination laws prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
It's worth noting that Smith was never asked by a gay couple to make a wedding website; she decided to challenge the law preemptively.
The Right to Discriminate
Lorie Smith is far from the only Christian wedding vendor who has challenged anti-discrimination laws on religious grounds.
From Bakers, florists, invitation designers, and bakers again… the list of business owners who have sought to refuse service on the basis of faith is a lengthy one.
However, while the Supreme Court has ruled on the issue before, this latest decision provides the most substantial First Amendment protections for religious business owners yet – setting a powerful precedent for future cases.
Writing for the majority, Justice Neil Gorsuch stated that Smith’s First Amendment right to express her faith should take precedence over anti-discrimination laws. “The First Amendment envisions the United States as a rich and complex place where all persons are free to think and speak as they wish, not as the government demands,” read the statement.
The court, he wrote, has long believed that “the opportunity to think for ourselves and to express those thoughts freely is among our most cherished liberties and part of what keeps our Republic strong.”
Experts say the decision effectively gives the green light to wedding vendors to legally discriminate against same-sex couples.
The Dissenting View
In their dissent, the three justices who ruled against the web designer argued that the Court's ruling is blatantly discriminatory.
“Today, the Court, for the first time in its history, grants a business open to the public a constitutional right to refuse to serve members of a protected class,” wrote Justice Sonia Sotomayor.
Additionally, they say that this clearly opens the door to further discrimination against other protected classes, and that the court’s decision “cannot be limited to discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.”
“How quickly we forget that opposition to interracial marriage was often because “‘Almighty God . . . did not intend for the races to mix,’” she wrote, quoting Loving v. Virginia.
Other critics pointed out that the legal challenge was all theoretical.
Contrary to what you might logically assume, Lorie Smith was not asked by any gay couple to build a website. Instead, she sought protection for if that scenario should occur (an important distinction, say critics of the ruling).
The Internet Reacts
Across the internet, reactions were unsurprisingly polarized.
Critics were quick to bash the decision, with some providing sarcastic commentary.
"I have a religious objection to bigots. Can I now deny them services, too?" quipped one Twitter user.
Others called it an example of "Christian Fascism" in action.
"Today's face of Christian Fascism: Lorie Smith the amateur web designer who decided her rights were being trampled by the mere possibility of having to design a website for a same-sex couple--even though no one had ever asked her to do that," another person wrote.
Meanwhile, many supporters cheered the decision as a victory for religious freedom. Among them was evangelical leader Franklin Graham:
What Next?
So what happens next? It seems clear that the Supreme Court believes religious liberty takes priority over anti-discrimination laws – at least in certain instances.
In her dissent, Justice Sotomayor lamented that, theoretically, this ruling opens the door to more incidents of discrimination.
“A website designer could refuse to create a wedding website for an interracial couple, a stationer could refuse to sell a birth announcement for a disabled couple, and a large retail store could limit its portrait services to ‘traditional’ families,” she wrote.
But the decision has other massive implications beyond the scope of the case itself. If the Court is inclined to view religious freedom with greater sympathy than in the past, more expansions of religious freedom could be just around the bend.
Considering the clear direction that jurisprudence has been heading since the Court took on its current conservative super majority, some fear that marriage equality itself could be at legal risk.
What do you make of the ruling?
Should Christian wedding vendors have the right to turn away same-sex couples if they don’t believe in gay marriage? What implications might this have for the future?
380 comments
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Rev. Rory
Same sex marriage, like heterosexual marriage, is government paperwork that allows people to share a health insurance policy or have the right to visit in a hospital or make healthcare decisions. It allows two people to file a joint tax return. It lets two people declare themselves as the parent of a minor, when the child is adopted or one person is the biological parent. It allows the parent to communicate with the school. The couple can also divorce.
What it does NOT do is force any church to perform same sex marriages, to bless those marriages, or to even acknowledge those marriages. They are not required to welcome such couples into their place of worship. Same sex marriage in no way threatens any religious organization in the United States. Same sex couples and opposite sex couples that decide to have a religious wedding still need to file government paperwork to be "legally" married.
Why there is hysteria over the LGBTQ+ community rights has more to do with politics and less to do with religion. Nobody "decides" to be gay or straight. We are who we are. Declaring that just in case a person seeks out the services of a company, and the owner of that company belongs to a religion that might not accept (might not) people that somehow conflict with the owner's beliefs, is over the top as the possibilities are endless.
We are molding our country into "Us" and "Them." In the end, we will be tribes of "Them" and there will be no "Us" in "US." I grieve for our country.
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Colleen McAllister
Rev. Rory very well put.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Just shut up go on with your lives and stop making a big deal about it. Heterosexual couples don't go around says oh look at us we are opposite sex couples married. Aren't we great please go with us and be the same as we are. Even if you hate the opposite sex. This is just STUIPD. AND NEEDS TO STOP. There still people that are the sex they are born as. Thats it DONE. You are either a Female or a Male. DONE. No them these it furries. Good god a person is not and cannot be an animal and use a litterbox and clean itsself like a cat in a juniorhigh classroom. This person needs professional help as do many.
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Rev. Rory
You are entitled to your opinion. I hope English is your second language. If so, congratulations to you as I admire people that can speak, read and write in multiple languages. If not, some remedial assistance is in order.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Pamela Kay Waters furries don't use litter boxes, that was a lie to attack furries. Humans are animals no matter what your religion may say otherwise
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Pamela Kay Waters
Yes they do. In cedar rapids iowa and marion iowa they do
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Michael Hunt
No they don't. That was a hoax. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/litter-boxes-in-schools-how-a-disruptive-and-demeaning-hoax-frustrated-school-leaders/2022/11
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Pamela Kay Waters
Explain yourself
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James Riggle-Johnson
@Pamela, Really? Children are not dressing as animals in class, not are they using litter boxes. I can’t believe people believe that stuff. It’s as ridiculous as it sounds. It isn’t happening. It never has. Some right-wing nut made that story up and it’s spread like wild fire. The LGBTQ community is just as normal as you are. We have friends and loved ones. We are happy and sometimes sad. We pay our taxes just like everyone else. As for refusing service to us, well it happens all the time. We have been kicked out of our childhood homes, denied house rentals, denied loans. All because we’re gay. It’s not right… no matter your religion, but now the highest court in the landshas deemed it legal. Eventually laws will be created to protect our civil rights. Eventually we will be treated like everyone else. May God be with you.
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Daniel Gray
Nobody decides to be gay? Tell that to Ann French-Elton John-Barry Manilow and a host of others who supposedly didnt know they were gay till way past their late 30's and early 40's.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Oh Daniel, they knew they were gay, the just hid it. They’ve said this publicly many times. They did not choose it.
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Daniel Gray
Not according to them, or are you saying you know more about them then they do?
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James Riggle-Johnson
Do you know them personally, Daniel? I do know Elton John personally. And yes... he has ALWAYS been gay. Look at the movie that he had made about his own life. He was the executive producer. It was about him, told by him. He was always gay.
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Daniel Gray
Sure you do. And if anyone believes that myth I have a bridge and a statue to sell you cheap. So if you are going to claim you know him personally then prove it. I wont hold my breath waiting
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James Riggle-Johnson
Daniel, you don’t believe anything you don’t agree with, and nothing will change your mind. Using circular logic based on your understanding of law, religion, or how you feel and an inability to see other opinions makes any proof irrelevant. Anything I say won’t matter. Your mind is made up.
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Daniel Gray
No I just dont believe your claim. And you have yet to prove it.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Daniel, if God were to come down and appear right in front of you, you would ask for their ID.
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Daniel Gray
Nope because God does not lie therefor I would know if he was the real thing. Nice try
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Daniel Gray
Read his own Autobiography in which he says he was not always gay. So who do we listen to? a book he helped write or a movie by someone else?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
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Daniel Gray
So you are trying to use a few peoples opinions as your basis in fact? are you really that desperate?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Did you even read the article? Because if you did, it obviously went right over your head.
Nature magazine isn't a media or 'News' site, it is a prestigious science publication founded in 1869. What you are dismissing is real science. You talk about a "few people" like it's a fact - did you even look at the 20 references?
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a#Bib1
Are you really that desperate?
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Daniel Gray
Yes I did and they mentioned only 3 people in the whole article. Nice try but massive fail
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Daniel Gray
no but you clearly must be by trying to use 3 people and claim they are the end all experts
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Daniel Gray
so big deal, you do know that there are over 350 million people in this country so does anyone in their right mind expect to agree with 20 people out of the hundreds of millions who say different? Are YOU that desperate ken?
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Daniel Gray
No I read the article and it clearly went so far above you Ken that go to its level cherry picking like you have done you would pass away from lack of oxygen
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You have a lot of words DG - self-serving abusive nonsense words.
Went over my head how? You don't say, just proclaim yourself the arbiter of intelligence - which is just what a delusional sociopath say.
You're only fooling yourself DG.
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Daniel Gray
No I have a lot of words and all of them are backed up in state and federal law so all you can do is whine and complain. But hey, isnt that what you usually do when you dont agree with someone? And I am STILL waiting for you to prove anything with something other then made up claims that are sympathetic to your chosen life.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Post your proof here.
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Daniel Gray
already did.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Not good enough.
You just told everybody you have no proof.
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Daniel Gray
Oh so let me get this straight kenny. When you post a link we are supposed to take it as gospel. And yet when a link that is posted that completely destroys you and whatever point you are trying to make..you either try and repeatedly claim the link does not work or that you refuse to believe it. Sound about par for the course with you Kenny? Oh and lets not forget the myths you add to these fake posts.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
How does that mean they "'decided' to be gay? Does the world only work the way you think it does?
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Daniel Gray
How about you ask manilow. He was married and had kids and then all of a sudden to the shock of his long time wife Susan Deixler, he announced he wanted a divorce because he decided he was gay. So how about you ask him and see the world does not work the way you wish it to.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Barry Manillow had said MANY times he had to hide his true self. That he always knew he was gay.
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Daniel Gray
So we are supposed to take your word for it and not his ex wife who knows him better then you? I mean she lived with him and if he was gay dont you think his wife would know it?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Post your proof here.
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Daniel Gray
already did
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Where?
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Daniel Gray
I posted a link directly from Susan Deixler who married him in 1964 and even his own step daughter who grew up with him said that he was always in a very stable marriage, So I guess we are suppose to ignore these two who actually lived with Barry, and just listen to your fantasies now or will you go off on a tirade when they are not accepted as fact?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I think it's apparent who's trying to shoehorn reality into their idea of it here.
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
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Daniel Gray
So you have one person in London, one person in LA and one person in Melbourn and you are trying to claim these people know more then Medical Science does? So WHO is trying to shoehorn what here? Say hello when you pass a mirror again
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Robert James Ruhnke
As always, it’s very clear the only thing you know how to demonstrate, Gray, is obsolete ignorance. Especially when it comes to the constitution and LGBTQIA+ people. Which speaks volumes to your character. Those men didn’t suddenly decide to be gay, they were closeted for decades before coming out. Lots of bi and gay men go through that. Go through the motions of getting married and having kids, it’s been a phenomenon for centuries. The irony is when straights say “the lgbtqia+ can’t have kids naturally,” when they do all the time. Heck, gays and lesbians have been known to hook up to have kids the old fashioned way because a bottle of tequila is cheaper than invitro fertilization.
Being LGBTQIA+ has its roots in biology. An there is science to back this. Though that’s irrelevant, much like your commentary. I’m saying these people know themselves better than any scientist. You constantly prove you know nothing about the community, and you’ll continue to know nothing so long as you keep pushing your hateful agenda. At your own expense to boot, I suspect.
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Daniel Gray
Yea sure. And I will ask you the same thing...where is the the mythical gay gene then?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Did you even read the article? Because if you did, it obviously went right over your head.
Nature magazine isn't a media or 'News' site, it is a prestigious science publication founded in 1869. What you are dismissing is real science. You talk about a "few people" like it's a fact - did you even look at the 20 references?
What you just did is deny science. You are literally a science denier.
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Daniel Gray
Yes I did read the article and again it only mentions 3 people, nothing more
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Did you quit school in the third grade?
Not that it matters - no matter how hard you try to ignore and deny reality, it's still going to be there.
Humanity is bigger than you. MUCH bigger!
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Daniel Gray
No but its clear by your foot stomping tirades that you never made it out of Kindergarten
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Michael Hunt
You're projecting again, Daniel.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You have no point.
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Daniel Gray
and yet its you two who are throwing a fit. So who exactly is projecting again?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Misdirection.
You still have no point.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Actually, the whole argument of 'They decide they are gay' is a complete red herring.
Here is how you can prove it DG. 'Decide' for a year to be gay. Just decide to, and show everybody else how gay you are. Shouldn't be a problem for you - you 'know' you are right - right?
Secondly, do you know who this actually matters to? I'll tell you - it really only matters to the self-appointed gender police, the crotch inspectors who are VERY interested in what everybody else has in their pants and what they are doing in their bedrooms, the busybody Gestapo who work zealously to ensure everybody live a life that pleases THEM.
Are you one of those? Or did you just 'decide' to be?
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Daniel Gray
Still cant refute what I said and now going on a hankie ripping tirade I see
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There is a certain mentality that presumes to know all and see all, and presumes this necessitates running everybody else's lives to enforce compliance with your forgone conclusions.
You are correct, I don't - nor do I need to live in a uniform homogenous society where everybody is just like me.
I'm not terrified of everything around me.
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Daniel Gray
Neither am I and again I ask if being gay is natural and biological, then where is the gay gene?
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Michael Hunt
There is no "Gay gene" because there are a number of DNA markers that indicate sexual behavior. That doesn't mean your sexual preference isn't a biological imperative, it just means sexuality is complex and diverse, just like the rest of nature. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02585-6
There isn't a height gene either because there are over 700 genes that can all have an effect on your height.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
WHAT WOULD A GAY GENE MATTER?
You are DICTATING how you want people to live their lives.
Nobody owes you an explanation for living their life. NOBODY.
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Daniel Gray
Because homosexuals have aalways tried to claim that they were born this way and its in their dna. So again if this is true then provide the gay gene and stop throwing tantrums.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Everybody knows how the LGBTQ have been tasked with justifying their existence.
My question to YOU is what does it matter?
Nobody has to explain living their life to you or anybody else.
NOBODY.
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Daniel Gray
ANd my question is right back at you...what business is it of yours to demand that we abandon 240+ years of law just to make a very minute group happy. Whatever happened to majority rule that you are so fond of?
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Rev Mark D
Don't forget Meredith Baxter Bernie.
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Pamela Kay Waters
How much do you think their bringing up has to do with how these people turn out
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Geoffrey C. Olive
As an atheist, I wonder whether any Christians would shout and scream discrimination, which it would be, if I had a bed and breakfast business (which I don’t) and I put a notice on the door and website saying, “NO CHRISTIANS”!
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
They'd be howls of protest from them. Some may even decide to try to burn the place down.
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Colleen McAllister
A slippery slope here. While I agree that businesses should be able to refuse services to anyone it is only a tiny step to full discrimination. In this case the web designer had no real reason to reject a potential client as she had not even been approached. In this particular case the court is okaying a blanket discrimination. This is wrong as it opens the door to discriminate against any group including religious ones. I very much disagree with the Supreme Court on this one.
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Rev Mark D
Yes she was approached, she refused to work with a couple and that was the basis for the original case.
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Asa William Sprague, II
The name and e-mail address of the person who alledgedly asked for this website designer's services came forward to claim he did not send the request and that he has been married to a woman for the past 15 years.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but the court said you do and it cant violate the 1st Amendment. if you have a problem with that you are free to try and get an constitutional amendment to fit it to your ideals
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Daniel Gray
No such thing. You DO remember the pesky little thing called the 1st Amendment which makes it a federal felony to try and pass a law or enforce one that makes a person violate their religion...right?
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Daniel Gray
Nope sorry, they court is going by what is written in the 1st amendment. If you have a problem with that then build a time machine and go back and give the founders your opinion, or if that isnt possible then try and make a constitutional amendment that will give the opinion of what you want. But be warned, since 1787 you have had well over 25000 attempts to modify or amend the constitution, and 27 have actually happened so while its not impossible, you have a 0.00072% chance of ever getting it done and once you start you have a maximum of 7 years to get it passed or it dies and cant be brought back up again
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Najah P Tamargo
Minster Najah Tamargo USA
REALLY????? This....AGAIN????? It makes me soooo angry I just want to spit out a paragraph long rant of profanities!!!! I lost faith in the SCOTUS a long time ago, so there you have it! And if a "business" person wants to loose money out of their pocket because of their alleged "religious" believes, that's their problem. Don't lay it off on "religion"....it's people like YOU that give "religion" a bad name. ATTENION ALL LBGTQ+ members.....if you wish to marry, have a cake made, flowers done, etc., I AM RIGHT HERE and will not refuse you because no matter what "religion" says, I believe in acceptance, love, respect, consideration and loving EVERYONE!!!!!!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Conservatives today, particularly religious conservatives, adamantly believe if they have to deal with anybody they disagree with, this constitutes having opposing views "shoved down their throats". How does this work exactly?
If you allow the gays to marry, how exactly does that force anything down your throat? Does that take away your right to marry? Does that mean there can never be any legality to your relationship with your partner? Does that socially ostracize you somehow? Does that deny the reality of who you are as a person? Because NONE of that would happen to you, but that is exactly what the bigoted prejudiced anti-gay-marriage movement does to the gay community.
If you allow a trans person to live the life they want, how exactly does that force anything down your throat? Do you lose any rights? Would you then be forced to live a lie chosen by other people? Would you be denied anything? Because NONE of that would happen to you, but that is exactly what the bigoted prejudiced anti-trans movement does to the trans community.
But I understand. If the LGBTQ were recognized as actual people, then you would have to admit they exist. You would have to share the world with them, and that would make you sad, because the truth is that there is a certain mentality that feels it is truly above everyone else, and is frightened and angered whenever this delusion is threatened - but they find a common purpose in their bigotry and prejudice, so are often able to impose their small-mindedness on the rest of the world, to their great relief and joy - so they could care less what facts they have to burn or who they have to hurt to do it.
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Krystina S.
Fantastic post, Kenneth. Well said!
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Daniel Gray
And by going to force a person to bend a knee to your beliefs is not forcing it down their throats? So tell us how it feels to have your own words come back and bite you on the rear?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I get this all the time from the conservative mentality.
Here is your answer.
And since the above post flew right over your head, I will speak V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y and draw stick figures.
Facts matter. Context matters. Consequence matters. This is why nothing is biting me in the rear. This is why the conservative case always FAILS when it is closely examined.
There is NO reason for you to deny business to the LGBTQ other than bigotry and prejudice. Do you know what those mean? Perhaps you should look them up in the dictionary.
If you did those jobs for the LGBTQ, guess what - you are doing the exact same job you are always doing! There is NO change! NONE, WHATSOEVER. Your life goes on EXACTLY as it always has, unaffected!
But here's the difference - you think to yourself, "The LGBTQ have cooties!" And then you IMAGINE civilization hangs in the balance, depending on your refusing business to somebody because of your delusions.
Meanwhile, you have excluded a human being from society. THAT is an actual HARM.
Now, argue with that, Mr. Love Thy Neighbor.
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Daniel Gray
sure you did actually you didnt. but nice try with your myths.
And yes the "love they neighbor" is a saying, but NOWHERE does it say you have to accept their lifestyle or do business with them.
Busted yet again
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David Richard Procter
White Christians are making their move to dominate American culture including the law. The influx of minorities and the increasing presence of blacks threatens them. I do imagine that Justice Thomas thinks of himself as white; consider who he is married to.
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Marion Wolfe
It is inevitable every time Christianity is allowed a foothold of power. Christianity demands savagery from its followers until every nonbeliever is dead or converted
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Pamela Kay Waters
Catholics too
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Russel A. Kester
David, there are plenty of non-white Christians and Muslims who behave just as badly.
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David Richard Procter
I mentioned blacks and "minorities": "The influx of minorities and the increasing presence of blacks threatens (white Christians)."
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Russel A. Kester
You mention too blacks and minorities as victims of aggressive white Christians who are trying to dominate America culture which is quite different than your response which plays all of the aggression you spoke of to a mere thought that the rise of blacks and minorities threatens the hereto cultural dominance of white Christian values. The two are not equivalent. Therefore, white Christians are NOT making a move to dominate American culture, they are reacting to losing their dominance of America culture. Very different perspective. If we had a black Muslim culture historically and white Christians were rising in power and influence, black Muslims would no doubt struggle to maintain their dominance. That's human nature. So stop painting white Christians as the problem.
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David Richard Procter
Don't be obtuse. Read genuine and reliable news reports, and stop getting your BS from Fox News.
White Christian Nationalism is the problem, not white Christians. Do try to improve your reading comprehension.
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Russel A. Kester
David, not sure whose post you are responding. If mine, then your second paragraph seems to indicate that we're saying very similar things although I was attempting to point out how the original poster had changed his statements as he continued to dialog.
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David Richard Procter
Thanks for your comment. I don't like this web site - or the way it is set up. I get notified that somebody has replied to one of my comments, and I cannot find it! I really don't know what the other guy was complaining about; I could not find his post.
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Daniel Gray
And I suppose you would say that about Harris as well? Or Michelle Obama? Harris is married to a white man and Michelle is married to a man who is half black and half white. So tell us what race has to do with this.
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Daniel-David
I know that the quick mart where I fill up my tank and buy a lotto ticket, has a sign : NO SHIRT, NO SHOES, NO SERVICE. That’s not against anyone’s religion. It’s not a personal preference. It a rule that a business puts up and enforces.
This person filed this case that went to the Supreme Court, preemptively, not after the fact of her refusal to do a web-design for them.
The issues surrounding abortion has stepped way over that line of privacy and governments power to interfere with the most sacred of human rights. What’s next, they want to restrict access to mental health because it might be morally ambiguous?
We can buy all the guns we want, and some have a hissy when some sane person wants to put restrictions on the types of guns and ammunition. The allergy medicine I take is in the pharmacy, locked up. Got to ask yourself why?
They might be right, they might be coming after your guns, but taking the right of a man and a women’s choice, along with their physician doesn’t seem to upset them.
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Daniel Gray
Then you need to read the decision and the story, Colorado has been after her for SEVEN YEARS to violate her 1st Amendment rights. Seems that she did no go preemptively as you claim. Which throws doubt on the rest of what you said
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
She went preemptively, by definition.
She is a hateful shrew seeking to ruin other people's lives out of pure hate.
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Daniel Gray
Nope sorry wrong again Ken. She was attacked by Colorado for 7 years before this got to the Supreme Court, so its not a "preemptive" anything and you wold know that if you bothered to read the SCOTUS decision where it clearly states that this has been going on for 7 years and lists the courts she had to go through. You really should know what you are talking about BEFORE you start talking
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
the courts she had to go through for a job she was never asked to do?
Keep talking.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Kenny, but wrong again as usual as the phone call records and emails are clearly saying you are ignorant of the facts yet again
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Post your source here.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Okay, so now it’s free speech. What will it mean when she starts losing customers because of her decision? She will then cry foul, that she is being cancelled, that people are discriminating against her. This has opened a can of worms that will continue to grow. The LGBTQ community has always been here and always will be. We will not be erased.
The Supreme Court claims they are not political, but they come down on partisan lines every time. People are losing faith in their ability to choose fairly.
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Daniel Gray
No if she starts losing customers because of her decision then thats all on her.
And no the SCOTUS is going by what the Constitution says they must go by. At no time anywhere in Article 3 (the powers of the Judiciary) does it give them the right to interpret anything nor does it say they have that ability or authority. Now if you think they do then why are you complaining when they interpret it in a different way then what you wanted them to do?
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Rev. Kev
I think I'd prefer it if a business told me they had some issue with me for whatever reason. That way I can just leave and take my business elsewhere. If they didn't say anything, their personal feelings might get in the way of doing their job and they might deliver a below par product. Forcing them to do a job they don't want to do certainly wouldn't make anything better.
I have no control over other people and won't be able to change them.
So maybe mention it in a review online and let the free market have its way.
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John Condron
Your position makes a lot of sense, Rev. Kev... assuming you are located in a place with lots of choices of vendors. In the case of a web designer, that is easy because location literally does not matter.
But what about the entire range of other service providers who are now free to discriminate? What if a person lives in a small town, with only one bakery shop? Or wedding planner? Or stationer? Or funeral home?
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Pamela Kay Waters
Go to another town
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John Condron
The response of someone with great privilege, Pamela. Many people lack the ability to just pick up and move.
Very similar to the response of pseudo-patriots to any form of dissent: "''Murica... love it or leave it!"
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Daniel Gray
nobody said anything about moving, all that was said is if you can find a person in another town that will do it, then go for it. Your understanding and comprehension seems to decrease daily
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Pamela Kay Waters
Well then you have a problem. You can't change the old ways
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Daniel Gray
what old ways, there is no law out there that says you have to associate with anyone
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Daniel Gray
Sorry John, just because you are the only game in your town does not mean you have to serve everyone.
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Daniel Gray
again, then go to another town. Its not that complicated.
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Russel A. Kester
Rev Kev, according to your post, would you then conclude that the government was wrong to force businesses that served only white people to also serve non-whites? If not, how do you square that with your post?
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Rev Mark D
Kev: "...Forcing them...".. This is what it's all about: forcing them. That's what the SC stepped in front of and it's not the first time. The government can't be used as a weapon of coercion against religion and it can't be used as a weapon of coercion for religion... Unless you rewrite the Constitution (the Bill of Rights appended to it anyway) as you go. An important step against the effect that "Religion Poisons Everything." They still get freedom from taxes which I think is simply robbery, but that's another story.
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Marion Wolfe
The Abrahamic death cults need to be eliminated.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
People will shy away from something that sounds so extremist.
After all, if one wants their message to be accepted, one must speak to the audience in a way to have the message accepted. Anything else is self-defeating.
I would suggest "The Abrahamic extremists must be educated", as a suggestion.
That said, I very much appreciate your participation and your point of view here.
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Russel A. Kester
Rev Kev, according to your post, would you then conclude that the government was wrong to force businesses that served only white people to also serve non-whites? If not, how do you square that with your post?
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Russel A. Kester
Kenneth, while I think I understand where you're coming from, I'm also reminded of speeches from a former extremists who say that people who think as you do don't understand that extremists won't listen and are so emotionally and psychologically hyped that they were never hear you and you will not only lose but might end up dead for your efforts. Look at the far-left activists today who use bull horns and masses of people to force their ideas onto society. I listened to an BLM activist actually say that her job was to shout down, out down, and silence any opposition to the movements rhetoric and to NEVER listen to any other opinion.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Did YOU listen to her opinion - or dismiss it?
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Russel A. Kester
Kenneth, I did listen to Marion's post. Did YOU? Abrahamic religions have been very, very aggressive and guilty of horrible crimes against humanity because of their hubris to believe they have the ultimate truth to which everyone else must ascribe or die. These three are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. If they all ceased to exist tomorrow it would be great. That said, Hinduism isn't without its atrocities and Wicca is far too Goddess and third-wave feminist oriented for my tastes. Even beloved Buddhism isn't without fault.
However, when a religious group becomes aggressive to others, society might have to irradicate it for the good of society. Today, that would be Islam. In the past I might have said it should be Christianity, and in ancient times Judaism. Tomorrow it could be Hinduism or some other group that rises to power. Who knows?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
And, because of one adherent, you throw BLM in with that too?
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Pamela Kay Waters
WHAT
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Congratulations to the bigoted and prejudiced. You are winning! You must feel so good now!
Hooray for you. You really put the 'demon' in demonstrating narrowmindedness and hate.
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Rev Mark D
Kenneth that's a cheap shot. So same back to you even though I'm not alone those religious bigots, I don't like your bigotry either.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
This eludes conservatives every time. They seem incapable of wrapping their heads around the fact that tolerating hate doesn't make a society tolerant, it makes it hateful.
This is what Germany learned 75 years ago. You'd think the rest of the world wouldn't be so slow, but here it is.
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Daniel Gray
This seems to elude you ken, if you want the 1st amendment changed then get a constitutional amendment and do it. If not then you WILL abide by what it says no matter how much you whine and cry about it
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Did you know it is illegal to shout "FIRE!" in a crowded theater if there is no fire?
Same principle. Yes the 1st amendment is important, but safety and common sense apply. Any other thinking is ignorant, absolutist and dogmatic.
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Daniel Gray
And since when is refusing to do business with a person violating any form of safety and common sense? Oh wait you cant say because it inst and has nothing to do with this argument. Thanks for playing.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So you admit it's not about safety or common sense.
well then, what could it be about? Hmmm - I'm going to say bigotry, prejudice and ignorance - but go ahead, feel free to refute me.
Thanks for nothing.
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Daniel Gray
Oh so you cant prove its about public safety and want to take your ball and go home, is that it?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So you can't refute me.
I guess in your own way that makes you 'honest'.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but I just did.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"Sorry."
You lie.
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Daniel Gray
No the one who is lying is the one who is constantly throwing a fit and demanding that we accept his flavor of the month. Say hi the next time you pass a mirror
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That makes no sense whatsoever - which makes perfect sense in your case.
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Daniel Gray
makes perfect sense except to the person who cannot seem to understand english.
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Daniel Gray
Congrats Kenny, you are throwing a tantrum because the law does not agree with you and this is the only way you can make yourself feel better.
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Rev Mark D
Well Franklin Graham is a pig in any case no matter what.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
religion sucks, christo-fascists suck harder, no good comes of this, and remember, turnabout is fair play. just wait until some christo-fascist is refused service by a muslim or some other religious person...anyway, religion sucks
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Pamela Kay Waters
Well said
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Russel A. Kester
Father JJ, it seems a bit ironic to see someone write that religion sucks within an organization such as ours. All religions have issues. Members who refuse to see that truth are a problem. But religious beliefs can also be wonderful life affirming.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
russel the ULC is NOT a religion nor it it belief specific. it's at best an umbrella organization where people with the requisite $ can "become" a minister. nothing more, nothing less.
also you should sort out the difference between religion and belief; all religion requires belief, but not all belief requires religion
religion is NOT necessary to be "...wonderful[ly] life affirming." that nonsense needs to stop, the silly belief that religion is necessary for anything other than as a means for controlling people; individually, socially, culturally.
religion is THE driving force that can unite as easily (easier, in fact) as it can divide people, families, countries and religious leaders understand that better than anyone else. I see little difference between an iman in afghanistan and the evangelical preacher in texas, they are both after the same thing; control. their claim to know the mind of god and to decide what is best for all around them.
so yes russel, Religion Sucks. All religion. All suck and none of them are benign, just not yet as malignant as the rest. no religion, given enough time, will not become malignant if for no other reason than the simple fact that those who get "the calling" and heed "the calling" are the kind of people who can not think for themselves and, out of the many will arise a few who do "get it", understand that leading a religion is like having the keys to the car, it puts you in control and you get to make all of the decisions so yes Virginia, Religion really, truly does SUCK
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Russel A. Kester
Rev JJ, while the ULC is a church, hence we're ministers. Also, it does have several beliefs we all agreed to when we signed up. So, yes, your statement was ironic.
I defend my statement that religion can, and often does, promote living in a wonderful, life affirming way.
I'll go with a point the comedian George Carlin made about politics: it isn't politicians that suck. We educated them and voted for them so, perhaps, it people who suck. So, maybe, just maybe, it's not religion that sucks but the people who claim to practice them.
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Rev Mark D
I found out more about how the case got to the Supreme Court. Apparently the Supreme Court was looking for a case like this and interceded before the case even went through first level of trial, and simply brought it up to the Supreme Court. So there was no court decision in the case before the Supreme Court, acting unusually, just dipped in and scooped the case up and brought it to itself. So it was looking for a case to rulon and did not want to wait around the years it might take. This was an activist intervention by this court and since there was no original trial result, and before the original Court apparently had the chance to simply dismiss the case because there really was no standing for either party since there was no injury in the first place, no court result. There would not have been a trial in any case because the whole thing was made up by the web designer. There was no adverse conflict to resolve in the first place. The court just must have been part of some conspiracy to get a case very fast that it could rule on and so it kind of made it up. That's what seems to have happened apparently... now what does that say?
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Russel A. Kester
Thank you, Rev Mark. I feel much better informed.
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Paul Edward Nunis
It says that you may want to look again... the US District and Circuit court cases and their rulings against 303 Creative, are public record.
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Daniel Gray
Then you need to reread it as you clearly didnt understand it the first time
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Steven Frederick Gordon
I'm Jewish. On a regular basis, I care for people with swastika tattoos.
But if I had a printing company, I'd refuse to print the infamous Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
That's fine. That same court ruling means the rest of us are free to discriminate against Christian bigots.
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Daniel Gray
Yes you are, BUT you have to show it violates your established religion to do so and you cant.
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Michael Hunt
Where in Christianity does it say it's wrong to serve the queer community? Oh, it doesn't? It might say it's a sin but it says nothing about providing services to the LGBTQ community or even to sinners in general. If it's her "sincere religious belief" that she can't serve gay people, she has as much doctrine to support her claim as an atheist does who wishes to deny service to Christians.
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, you can't limit your discussion to Christianity. Where does it say in the Koran that Muslims must serve Christians? Oh, it doesn't. In fact, it says it's okay to enslave non-Muslims and make you their b*tch. One of the reasons for civil and NOT religious governments is to prevent just such destructive elements in society.
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Michael Hunt
I don't disagree with you regarding the problematic parts of the Quran but this person isn't using Islam and the Quran to discriminate against others, she's using Christianity, which is why I'm limiting my discussion to Christianity. You're just saying "what about Islam?" when that has no connection to the topic.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Where in Christianity does it say this is ok to serve the gay
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
The same place it says it's OK to serve [insert prefferred group].
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Daniel Gray
which does not exist. Thanks for playing
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Daniel Gray
And Jesus never said anything about being required to serve them either. Dont you just hate it when your own logic, or attempted as such; comes back to bite you on the rear?
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Michael Hunt
Daniel, this lady is claiming that her "sincere religious belief" means she can't serve gays. That insinuates that her religious doctrine dictates that you don't provide them service. She's arguing that the Bible gives her the reason to not serve gay people when the Bible says nothing about providing or restricting services to gay people, or sinners. Therefore my statement, "s she has as much doctrine to support her claim as an atheist does who wishes to deny service to Christians" stands.
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Daniel Gray
No michael she says she has no problem with them but her religion says she cannot do business with them. And the 1st Amendment says that is her right to do so.
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Daniel Gray
And where in Christianity Michael does it say that we should have to serve them?
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Marion Wolfe
He can. You might not like it, you might throw a tantrum over it, but he can do whatever he wants.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
In the US, all religions are equal. Christians are offensive to Satanists so I could easily meet your requirement.
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Rev Mark D
No Mike Eggleston, you are not free to discriminate against religious bigots, you're just not allowed to use the government as a weapon to coerce them. Well, actually you are free to discriminate them, you'll just have to pay the price... Most of the time that will be nothing but on occasion there will be a price. You just can't use the government as a weapon of your prejudice.
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Alexander Arends
The Supreme Court members base their decision on their interpretation of the law, not on popularity. That's why you will see Justice Roberts, a Republican appointed Supreme Court Justice sometimes disagree with the majority. The way I see it, this allows business owners to refuse service when they are asked to do something against their religion. I would think that refusal should be based on the requested service, not on the character or preferences of the individual.
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Daniel Gray
There is nothing in Article 3 of the constitution that gives them the right or authority to "interpret" anything. If so then please show what section you find that in as if this is the case then any future court can reinterpret anything to fit what they believe, and to that it leads to chaos
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
By Order of the Supreme Court:
We no longer serve LGBTQ+ people.Coming Soon:
No Blacks! No Jews! No Mexicans! No Interracial Couples!-
Daniel Ginther
Sorry, Blacks, Jews and Mexicans don't support child molestation and child mutilation.....Big Diff Timmy
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
But the LGBTQ+ people do?
Yes, I know, you saw it on Fox News - the organization recently ordered to pay 3/4 of a BILLION dollars for their lies - which also explains why you got my name wrong.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/18/dominion-wins-but-the-public-loses-fox-settlement-avoids-paying-the-highest-price
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Daniel Gray
So explain the chant of "we're here and we're queer and we are coming for your children" at the last pride rally and then they double down and try and force the issue.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The explanation is that we know you are terrified of everything, and you can't resist hearing what you want to hear.
Read the FULL article:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/children-nyc-drag-chant-video/
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Daniel Gray
Oh how desperate you must be to continue to bring up your boogyman.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What??
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Daniel Gray
dont understand english Kenny?
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Daniel Gray
getting all worked up because of you posting hysterical lies again I see, Kenny
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James Riggle-Johnson
Okay, fine, your sincerely held religious beliefs make you not want to design a website for my wedding, violating your free speech. Personally, I wouldn’t want to do business with a person who feels I live in sin or that I’m evil. Simultaneously, I don’t want my friends or family to do business with you either. However, if that person starts losing money, they cry foul. People won’t do business with me because of my sincerely held religious beliefs, as the farmer did in the previous article. No, they won’t do business with you because you’re a bigot. Soon we will have signs on business doors that say “Straights Only” or “Homosexuals Only.”
The real problem is Christians want us back in the closet. They don’t want to see us holding hands or kissing each other in public. Keep it in your bedroom, is how they put it. We aren’t having sex on the street. Heterosexuals have been holding hands for several millennia, but it’s not okay for us. THAT IS THE PROBLEM! We are not trying to force ourselves on Christians. We are trying to coexist without being accused of disgusting things.
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Daniel Gray
Notice the ONLY ones who are complaining are the ones who think its ok for the Government to decide what you can do and what you cant do.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Look who has a problem with authority - so wants to be in charge.
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Daniel Gray
So I am going by what the Constitution says, and that offends you so much that you try and use a 2nd grade insult because you have nothing else?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Isn't the government directed by the Constitution?
Try again.
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Daniel Gray
Yes they are, and a clear showing of that is by what the last 4 decisions of the SCOTUS have ruled that has some people so up in arms as it has gone against what they believe instead of what the constitution says, so whats your point exactly?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You agree with the SCOTUS do you? So you know they are all right-wing extremists, right?
Or maybe you like that. Maybe you agree with that. Maybe you could explain that.
For example, maybe you could justify Dobbs.
Forced pregnancy is a war crime according to the Geneva conventions - and make no mistake, there very much is a war against women and women's rights.
Supporting the anti-abortion movement requires embracing the mindless absurdity that a brainless cell is a "Person", and to this brainless cell is transferred all the rights and privileges of personhood that formerly belonged to the real actual conscious woman at the moment of conception, who is then reduced to the status of incubator.
No brain = no person. This is the undeniable biological scientific FACT that anti-abortionists dance and contort to deny, but no matter how they hope and wish and pray and fantasize is NEVER going away. It's textbook magical thinking.
A fetus doesn't even get close to the sophistication necessary for awareness until the third trimester, but 99% of abortions are done by 21 weeks, and nobody has an unnecessary abortion in the third trimester anyway, so that isn't what this is about.
This is what makes the anti-abortion movement brainless, criminal, and outright sociopathic.
Justify that.
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Daniel Gray
Already did justify that, whats wrong, you upset that you cant refute it?
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Daniel Gray
I already did justify it, nice try but your whines and smoke and mirror attempts at trying to prove your claims and failing miserably each time is not helping you. Sees you and Robert are the ones who are ignoring the fact that you are being proved wrong by other posters each and every time you post your OPINIONS and not based on fact or science.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Where did you talk about abortion?
And it's a classic troll move to not actually have any argument, but just criticize the counter-argument and proclaim yourself the 'winner'.
But everyone can see what you did.
Honestly - seek professional help.
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Daniel Gray
Again it seems you and robert are the ones who refuse to accept facts and try everything in your power to get even one person to believe the myth you have made yourself comfortable with
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Daniel Gray
And the only reason you keep trying to inject politics into this as it does not seem to be going the way you want it to and you cant stand it
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You still have refuted NOTHING about abortion.
Because you can't.
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Daniel Gray
I HAVE and each and every time I post a link you whine that they are not valid, and isnt it so very strange that when you click on the link it goes right back to the page and information I said it had? Does not say much for you now does it?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Other things anti-abortionists say:
"An acorn is an oak tree. An egg is a chicken. Batter is a cake. A blueprint is a bridge." ~Anti-abortionists~
"A woman's place is barefoot and pregnant - and if a woman disagrees with us, we will put her in jail." ~Anti-abortionists~
"Legally we have exactly ZERO responsibilities for the children we force women to give birth to. That's the great thing about being an anti-abortionist." ~Anti-abortionists~
"We must enslave women, because it's the moral thing to do." ~Anti-abortionists~
"Of course we will strip the right of bodily autonomy from a woman because of an undeveloped unbreathing unborn unperson that doesn't know anything, doesn't think anything, and would miss NOTHING if aborted. That's what makes us so empathetic." ~Anti-abortionists~
"A zygote is a rational and autonomous human being." ~Anti-abortionists~
"A woman must choose one of two options in life; Live as a monk, and hope she never gets raped, or look forward to the day she's stripped of bodily autonomy, sacrificed to a 'being' that doesn't even have a brain, valued solely for her uterus, whether she wants to or not, just as God intended." ~Anti-abortionists~
"There is no greater virtue-gasm than forcing a woman to surrender her bodily autonomy, telling her to her face she deserves it because she committed "The Act", and then telling yourself you 'saved a life'." ~Anti-abortionists~
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Daniel Gray
How pathetic kenny. the ONLY thing you got right in that whole rant is
"An acorn is an oak tree. An egg is a chicken. Batter is a cake. A blueprint is a bridge." ~Anti-abortionists~
"A zygote is a rational and autonomous human being." ~Anti-abortionists~
The rest of your idiotic rant is nothing but made up claims and yet here you are posting them as if they were fact. Ok then Kenny SHOW US where each and every one of the other rants you made were actually said. I wont hold my breath waiting as you cant.
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Daniel Gray
I did because they went by all the evidence available and not by the wishes of a select few who then throw tantrums. Sound about what you do huh Kenny
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Robert James Ruhnke
You’re okay with the government interfering in people you don’t like’s lives, your comments are constantly alluding to that. Even when you don’t have the guts to say the quiet parts out loud. That’s you projecting your own twisted views onto a situation again, Gray. You seem completely fine with government telling people who they can and can’t love.
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Daniel Gray
My views go by science and medicine. Sorry if that offends you but I really could care less.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Outdated and obsolete ideas you call science and medicine don’t offend me, Gray. You hiding behind them is just more proof of your cowardice. Which is on you, not me.
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Daniel Gray
So when scientific and medical fact dont agree with you, you then choose to call them outdated?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You deny science outright.
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What 'science and medicine'?
Go ahead and post your propaganda links here - and I'll answer with science and medicine.
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Daniel Gray
Nice try, I have already posted links and you have posted nothing from science and medicine that backs you up
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Daniel Gray
You mean unlike you have ever done before?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Now you are lying.
I have posted this link before many times, including to you:
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
It is from the prestigious science publication Nature, established in 1869, and includes 20 references.
You have denied seeing the article, you denied the science in the article, you denied the references, and simultaneously spun fantasies about your denial.
You deny science. You are literally a science denier.
You are going to have to do better than "No it isn't - I told you so!"
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Daniel Gray
Hmm lets see, the best you can do is to claim a story from a magazine that was printed EIGHT YEARS ago? and expect people to accept it as fact?
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Daniel Gray
So you are now saying that the medical books are all wrong because they dont fit your flavor of the month
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
As a guess, I'm going to say the last time you saw a science book was... never.
How about instead of spewing BS you come up with something better?
That would be different for you.
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Daniel Gray
As a guess I would say that you will do anything and say anything to try and get people to believe you and then throw a fit when links are posted that prove you wrong.
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Cindy L Edgar
Pretty much this is just the government trying to tell everybody what they can do and what they can't do I am an ordained minister and I have performed many same-sex marriages and I will until the end of time it's people like her that make it really bad for other people no one should have the right to judge anybody on who they want to be with
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Michael Holland
The whole ruling was based on hypotheticals, private businesses have always been able to choose their clients. Im more than happy to take my money to businesses that dont discriminate, money is money, its their loss!
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David G. Torrey
As a GAY Christian and recent appointed Reverend, I don't like this one bit! We across all religions were taught to love one another as ourselves. This web designer is not doing that! Furthermore, what happens between someone's romantic life and one's religious beliefs should not constitute government involvement. This web designer lady was NOT acting christlike in any way, shape, or form. If she makes the excuse of her being Christian to hide her bigotry, than she is in the wrong. Our country is on a downward spiral when it comes to equality. I hope and pray every day that this will change, but after seeing this article, I don't know if it ever will.
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Robert Edward Szekely
This web designer may purport to be Christian, but her actions clearly indicate the contrary. Christ did not teach hatred and persecution. Clearly, the SCOTUS majority in this ruling either doesn't grasp the true meaning of religious freedom, or they're closet homophobic bigots. This ruling needs to be overturned on appeal, and the justices who voted in favor of it, impeached and removed from the bench. It is clear that they do not understand the democratic values of justice, freedom and equity for all citizens, and not simply the heteronormative majority. Christ has said although you spoke my name, I never knew ye.
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John H McNeely
The problem for the Court is that it is obeyed only because people choose to obey it because they previously viewed it as non-ideological an non-partisan and honest when testifying at their confirmation hearings. And that each Justice would self impose the highest standards of ethics.
But Trump's three nominees to the Court openly lied to the Senate to get confirmed; thus committing perjury. When asked about particular issues, they testified that such matters were settled law. Then we find that each of the Trump appointee are involved in public scandals about accepting massive gifts and not reporting them or recusing themselves when the donars were before the Court.
This is the only Supreme court that has ever taken rights granted for over 50 years, in some cases, away, defying the Will of the American people. The conservatives have already paid a price and will pay even a bigger one if the Court continbues to behave in this way.. Chief Justice Roberts has demonstrated a lack of leadershipp in protecting the institution. Should the US House end up back in the majority control of the Democrats, I think you should look for measures to reign in the Supreme Court. There is nothing in the Constitution that says how many justices there should be, how long their terms of office are, or what they should be paid. If they mke Congress mad enough, they cn hae their term of office set at 6 month nd thereafter, for ten years. Their pay can be set to $0 and there can be only three of them on the Court.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
I've said this a thousand times. If your religion teaches you to hate, you need a new religion. If that web designer ever works on the Sabbath, they better be stoned to death, like the bible demands.
BanChristianity
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Takaya Kovani Sweeney
Slippery slope for those of us with dark skin.
Won’t be long now until the segregation signs are back up.
Give them an inch….
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James Mounts
I hate people who hate. Wait...eh..nevermind
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
This eludes conservatives every time. They seem incapable of wrapping their heads around the fact that tolerating hate doesn't make a society tolerant, it makes it hateful.
This is what Germany learned 75 years ago. You'd think the rest of the world wouldn't be so slow, but here it is.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Everyone has the right to refuse service to anyone. Whether they like it or not. These people need to GET OVER it. Quit your crying discrimination and go on.
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Robert James Ruhnke
You sound like the first person to cry over being told no. Lol get over people being gay.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Im not opposed to gay people they just dont need to cry over everything.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Like you’re crying over their existence now?
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
I wonder if you'd say the same about a business that refused service to Christians solely because of their beliefs.
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Russel A. Kester
Pamela, I'm not sure that's true. When a government entity grants a business license, doesn't that come with a promise from the business owner to follow local and state laws which might include doing business with the public without discriminating against any member of the public based on race, religion, sex, handicap, or sexual orientation?
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
It’s interesting, that those who self-identify as members of the Christian tribe, want everyone who doesn’t wish to become a Christian tribal member, to suffer the consequences,
Tribalism is just one of the most significant enemies of democracy in the USA,
And tribalism has the real potential to be the major cause of World War III (AKA, the Last World War).
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
I wouldn't want someone, who hates for who/what I am to do anything for me. They may muck it up on purpose. That said, the freedom party (the GOP) seems to love denying the freedoms of others. May Tyr smite the GOP!
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Steven Ferrell
It is not just GOP people. I know many hard working blue collar democrats who also are against trans, gay, etc. To try and say it is just one party is not true.
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Daniel Ginther
Homosexuals are for Child molestation and Mutilation, they no better than murderers.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Ginther have you considered how deeply closeted you truly are? I mean, seriously, your comments, hatred, your not-even-thinly-veiled disgust for gays and their death has only one source, and that is from your very own dark, hateful soul.
Ginther you need to accept the word of Gay, embrace Gay into your life, become One with Gay and all that hatred, all that anger, pent up over the years because you mother didn't love you, your father wanted nothing to do with you, all of that made you hide your true nature.
your Mommy knew you were gay and because of religion, couldn't love you. your father knew you were gay and because of religion (and his own closeted feelings) chose hate over love,
and now, here you are, spreading the hate you were served at home to the rest of the world so that all can feel as hurt, hated, rejected and despised as you were.
Verily I say unto you Ginther, open your arms, accept and embrace the Gay that is already in you, the Gay is good, the Gay is what you need, accept it, admit it, love and embrace it for after all, you are one of us, one of the Gay
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Donald Richard Starns
I’m sure you’re right, but isn’t it weird that it’s usually a priest or a minister, or a “conservative” politician who gets caught fooling around with kids?
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Pamela Kay Waters
Well said
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/nearly-1-700-priests-clergy-accused-sex-abuse-are-unsupervised-n1062396
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/19/new-jersey-catholic-diocese-alleged-sexual-abuse-settlement
https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/09/us/oakland-catholic-diocese-bankruptcy/index.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/probe-identifies-158-priests-accused-abuse-600-victims/story?id=93565644
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Steven Ferrell
What I don’t understand is why anyone would want to try and force a small business like those mentioned to do what they want, why would you want to give your money to them anyway?
If a business is against what I believe, I gladly go elsewhere because I don’t want to give that business my hard earned money. I don’t want to help them make money, I’d rather give my money to small businesses that support what I believe.
I think it is more they want to force everyone to believe like them. All that does is drive a bigger divide. Spend your money at businesses that support you and your beliefs and help them be profitable.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I think everyone has a right on certain grounds to refuse service to anyone in their own business. And as I said on certain grounds without getting into a big argument. Health, religious views, etc. If I was Jewish and a Nazi believer came into my business and started shouting racist remarks towards me and my faith and employees out they would go. If someone literally stunk due to uncleanness or other reasons out they would go posing a health risk to employees and customers. I still see signs in some restaurants and other businesses posted in the spring and summer and early fall; " NO SHOES, NO SHIRT, NO SERVICE". ia person walked with lice or bed bugs crawling on them out they would go. Simple as that. In the case of the alphabet clown community I will not adhere to the further destruction of our moral society.
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John Condron
Your argument is nonsensical, Keith. You correctly point out that one can refuse service to a customer who is literally "disturbing the peace" in their establishment, or are literally creating a health hazard (there are health codes in most places requiring shirts and shoes, Keith).
That is not what happened in this case. In fact, LITERALLY NOTHING HAPPENED IN THIS CASE, since nobody ever asked this obscure website developer to make a website for a gay wedding!
Your comment about the "alphabet clown community" suggests a pretty high level of bigotry on your part, though.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
What ever you choose to call me is fine. I don't ❤ care.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If the description is true, it isn't an insult - it's a DESCRIPTION.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but she provided recordings of the calls and she even had CCTV recordings in her shop that validate what she said as well as emails from the person. Nice try.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Post your proof here.
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Daniel Gray
read the trial transcripts from the SCOTUS, they are clearly available at www.supremecourt.gov or are you freely admitting that you cant or refuse to use a search engine?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, she submitted a name - and he denies it.
And he's straight too.
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/01/1185632827/web-designer-supreme-court-gay-couples
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Daniel Gray
And you do know that there are at least 15 different people within a 20 mile range around her with the same name and spelling right? I went to my locasl library and asked to reserve the new James Rollins book, only to be asked WHICH one I am. Without giving me any details I was informed by the librarian that there were FIVE people with my same name and spelling, and what makes it even more spooky is that (while not telling me what it was) she informed me that even our social security numbers was spooky as they were all ONE DIGIT OFF from each other and we all lived in the same county of 45000 people.
So tell me kenny, whats your point if you even have one?
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Daniel Gray
sorry but NOT what the scotus trial records say
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John Condron
OMG! You mean they got away with lying to the SCOTUS? Shocking!
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Daniel Gray
Nope, she provided the emails and phone calls that backed her up so the only people who are claiming she lied are people like Kenny
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
She lied.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
{Take your pick} is the last refuge of scoundrels..... tk
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Paul Edward Nunis
Yes... a long list.
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
Firstly, marriage should be decommissioned. it's an outdated question. A contract should replace it for civil marriage, and religious marriage should be apart from any contractual casualties.
Anybody could be civilly married at will, the contract ruling the wright and specifically the issues like the end, the child guard and other financial issues...
Secondly, as soon the civil and religious issues are separated, religious questions about marriage will not cause any trouble anymore as it will become free and "just for fun" choice.
Thirdly, nobody should be able to force anybody to give/sell a service in any circumstances. This is a matter of freedom of commerce.
For my part I don't care marrying any 2 or more "able to consent" people (not child, not animals, not IA, not self) whatever they manage to do in their'r private life. If blessing is effective, and god really infinite, he will give them their due at the end...
We are all children of a same universe, I will NEVER refuse a blessing to anybody asking it whatever could it manage to be and if even a child a monkey or an IA ask me to give it a blessing and a protection of god upon it, I will give it twice : one for their life and one for their eternity.
Nobody should be taken out of god's hands, deprived of grace or mercy by any ULC minister...
My the god of all universes bless you all. Rev. Jean-Anasthase
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Kirk England
The web designer was asked to write something creative celebrating gayness. She did not refuse to do it because the couple was gay (she has gay clients), she refused because she viewed the request as a request to create a lie. The court ruled this is a freedom of speech issue, not a discrimination against a “protected class” issue. Justice Soto Mayor is being disingenuous in her summary which is common for her. The government cannot compel someone’s speech.
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John Condron
Actually, Kirk, it turns out she was NOT "asked to write something creative celebrating gayness." She lied about the gay couple who supposedly attempted to hire her to create a wedding website. In fact, she had never created such a website. Apparently, facts like that are of no concern to the current SCOTUS.
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Rev Mark D
I just saw on the news that the guy who supposedly asked this web designer to do something, says he never did ask. So the case was a put up job. In that case why did Accord even advance the case, seems like there was no actual case.
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Pamela Kay Waters
RELIGION SHOULD NEVER INTERFERE with anyones school life or business. This is one of the biggest problems in this country besides politics.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Again if these people would just shut up about their sexual preferences and not flaunt like other groups and just go anout their life as they want maybe people would stop rejecting these groups. The main thing is DO NOT SHOVE IT DOWN OUR KIDS THROATS. Keep it to yourselves. It almost seems like you are trying to make people go down your side. SHUT UP.
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Robert James Ruhnke
YOU SHUT UP. Existing is not shoving it down anyone’s throats, and when LGBTQ+ rights are constantly under threats, we will not shut up. When you christo-fascist fools stop throwing away your LGBTQ+ kids, then we’ll stop adopting them into our chosen families. You’re the ones forcing and dividing people with your psychotic superstition. You’re the ones going door to door shoving your beliefs into peoples lives. We are just fighting for our rights as citizens in this country. You guys gladly commit atrocities to not protect your own children. The same said children who get shot at weekly, get molested by their pastors, coaches, and neighbors, but somehow that’s the LGBTQ+ fault your terrible parents. No Pam, you shut up. .
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Krystina S.
Yes Robert. It is bigots who force their bigotry down others' throats.
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Robert Gagnon
That's almost humorous. Look up definition of a bigot, though normally the majority, they don't own it. Hatred or name calling from a group other than your own is bigotry. Your use of the word is an oxymoron. Anyone that don't root for your team is basically a bigot.
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Pamela Kay Waters
How have the American Natives Indians been treated for the last 200 years? Everything taken from them and put on reservations. They're not throwing temper tantrums ARE THEY.
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Robert Gagnon
The more you push the more you lose. It's like Homer Simpson, just keeps walking into the wall. LGB is losing everything over radical extremist ideas. You will never win a war war against the majority, especially while sterilizing your youth.
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Anthony Dale Perdue
Yelling fire in the proverbial theater is a false call to action, which may lead to those attempting to escape suffering physical and or mental harm. So, it is illegal to do. Forcing a vendor to take clients they otherwise would not is a different issue. Yes, it hurts someone's feelings, but violates no human rights. I perform themed weddings, which means my business relies on diversity. However, I will not under any circumstances, officiate a KKK or Nazi theme. Anything other than complete freedom to choose my clients, would be a violation of my right to associate or do business with whom I choose. This decision protects that right.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You get it, while at the same time you don't seem to get it.
Tolerating hate doesn't make a society tolerant, it makes it hateful. This is what Germany learned over 75 years ago. This is WHY you should NOT officiate a KKK or Nazi theme, and SHOULD protect a LGBTQ+ right to marry.
People do things for reasons - and hate and love are VERY different reasons!
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Donald Richard Starns
I guess I have a naïve idea of things, since I think that the Christian thing to do is to be loving and accepting of all my fellow humans, and to treat them as I’d like to be treated. I try very hard to not judge others who aren’t like me. I don’t always succeed, but I keep trying.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Grifters know that it's easiest to fool someone who thinks that they are getting away with something.
It even applies to judges.
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Tony Steven Minish
Why are we arguing it has always been a free country until very recently. The SCOTUS did follow the Constitution. The gay community is pushing their lifestyle on us!! Look at what is happening in the schools they are grooming our young people that is what worries m!! You have a rite to buy or not buy from a business period. Hell in Michigan our Evil Governor just made it a felony if you don’t call a mental person by their pronoun?? Us They Them???? This too will be struck down by our SCOTUS as it should be!! We need to get back to ONE NATION UNDER GOD that is the way to combat all the Evil going on in our country right now! Pastor Tony
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Krystina S.
Wow Tony, your bigotry shines brightly. I am not gay, and have never been pushed to be gay by my many gay friends. For people to be free to be themselves is an American right.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Yes but what he is saying why are they making a big deal about their sexual orientation? Shut up dont flaunt it. Heterosexuals don't do it. I see more gay people showing pda today than Heterosexual people. There is a place for it in your own homes. Not to show off in public
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/nearly-1-700-priests-clergy-accused-sex-abuse-are-unsupervised-n1062396
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/19/new-jersey-catholic-diocese-alleged-sexual-abuse-settlement
https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/09/us/oakland-catholic-diocese-bankruptcy/index.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/probe-identifies-158-priests-accused-abuse-600-victims/story?id=93565644
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Daniel Gray
repeating myths does not make you any less wrong.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Calling documented accounts of priest molestation, myths, is why I 100% question you ability to interpret reality, Gray. Every time you “cite a source” that source usually countermands your claim.
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Daniel Gray
Nobody is disputing these accounts. I am though disputing the reason for bringing them into this conversation.
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Michael Hunt
You just called the accounts myths. Are you okay? You seem to have trouble following simple facts of the discussion.
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Daniel Gray
Yes I did as I have proved that what Kenny and his buddies are trying to post as fact is in all actually false and comes from biased sources.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You are constantly bragging about how you 'prove' things. You haven't.
You proclaim any source that doesn't agree with you as 'biased'. It isn't.
You live in your own little world DG. You're fooling nobody but yourself.
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Daniel Gray
and you are throwing yet another tantrum because it seems that "my little world" (according to you) completely destroys you with links to show your myths everytime you post here.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Is that what reality is to you - a myth?
That's funny, because a lot of people think everything you think is s a myth.
Best get your best boy on it right away - you know, "SATAN!"
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Daniel Gray
so instead of desputing this like an adult, you try a very childish reply from the church lady on SNL
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Paul Edward Nunis
This ruling follows the Constitutional premise that government isn't supposed to tell individuals what they must create, and a limited authority to say what people can not create. And it also opens the door fully, for another person to use mere claims of 'religious beliefs' as a means to a less than altruistic goal.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
As a minister of YHWH and Our Father's Laws I'm opposed to the alphabet people agenda. However as a military veteran of the gulf war this decision pisses me off. 1812 James Madison who wrote the first 10 Amendments to the United States Constitution had to go before Congress and admonished them for trying to make polygamy illegal. There is no Federal law whatsoever against anything that has to do with religion. They leave that for the States to violate those Constitutional Rights. Marriage is "a religious exercise therein" and "the government has no shadow of right to interfere in matters of religion" -James Madison. I find it interesting that this Lori Smith was able to file a preemptive suit when I tried to, the federal Judge ruled; "you can't file a suit until the law actually effects you directly" who'd she give a blow job too?
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James Riggle-Johnson
I’m not sure, but I believe that’s what the lower courts said to her, but SCOTUS was looking for any opportunity to stick it to the gay guy. Lol!
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Richard Lee Cornell
Her suit was a pile of Bull. No one went to her to do anything.Now no one will go to her for anything. Even her God has turn Her back on her. She is a outcast of our society.
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Wellness Counselor
If you do not believe in same sex marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex! You should not be permitted to hold a position of public authority if you hold prejudices or are incapable of objectivity. If you can't put the rights of the people you serve ahead of your own interests, you have no business serving the public.
"I may not agree with what you say, but il defend to the death your right to say it."
I may not agree with your lifestyle but it's your life to live.
Using religion to justify prejudice is insulting. The greatest commandment is to Love God, yourself, and your neighbor. It does not say love only the neighbors with the same beliefs. It doesn't say judge your neighbor, it says love your neighbor.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
As I understand, the web site developer will work with anyone. However, they reserve the right to not build websites, which advance views with which their religious views disagree. I would not expect this person to build a website pushing my Heathen religion.
No more, no less.
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Rev. Jean-Anasthase
Firstly, marriage should be decommissioned. it's an outdated question. A contract should replace it for civil marriage, and religious marriage should be apart from any contractual casualties.
Anybody could be civilly married at will, the contract ruling the wright and specifically the issues like the end, the child guard and other financial issues...
Secondly, as soon the civil and religious issues are separated, religious questions about marriage will not cause any trouble anymore as it will become free and "just for fun" choice.
Thirdly, nobody should be able to force anybody to give/sell a service in any circumstances. This is a matter of freedom of commerce.
For my part I don't care marrying any 2 or more "able to consent" people (not child, not animals, not IA, not self) whatever they manage to do in their'r private life. If blessing is effective, and god really infinite, he will give them their due at the end...
We are all children of a same universe, I will NEVER refuse a blessing to anybody asking it whatever could it manage to be and if even a child a monkey or an IA ask me to give it a blessing and a protection of god upon it, I will give it twice : one for their life and one for their eternity.
Nobody should be taken out of god's hands, deprived of grace or mercy by any ULC minister...
My the god of all universes bless you all. Rev. Jean-Anasthase
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Janis Carol Sommers
All people in the private sector are free to discriminate. I am a Lesbian. If I designed websites I would not want to have to add Lorie's content to create one. I want to enjoy working with the people I want to support. Imagine what she might have written if she told her truth. Her beliefs and thinking have nothing to do with Christianity and why this ever went to the Supreme Court is just more nails in our coffins publicity. Why the two women pursued her is as mean as she is.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Then you are a heretic .
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Ian Robinson
STOP, THINK, MEDITATE. Anyone who has studied the bible and is a true Christian will be opposed to same sex unions. That is part of their belief system. Should they then be discriminated against and forced to participate in something that they feel strongly about. The answer is no. I am a shaman and a Wiccan High Priest and would carry out a handfasting between a gay couple as my own personal belief system does not forbid this even though my own personal thoughts may be different. I would even carry out a handfasting for a Christian or Buddhist or a worshiper of the Green Plastic Ashtray for that, again, does not violate the old laws that I follow.
Another point that people are missing is that if a true Christian is forced to conduct a marriage service for a gay couple then would that Christian be discriminated against because of their belief system. The answer is yes, they would be discriminated against by the gay couple. A circular argument me thinks. The answer is simple, to each their own. Their are plenty of ordained ministers out there so a couple has the freedom of choice to decide who to choose to carry out their ceremony.
Just to be controversial, if I walked down the street wearing a shirt that said "Straight, male and proud" would that be considered offensive by gay couples? I think that the world has gone insane.
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Michael Fitchett
This is not a case of discrimination but a case of freedom. You can love all people but disagree with their views.Do we really want the government to decide who we do business with or who we boycott. If we don't want to make a cake for someone isn't that our right? If we dont want to buy a cake from someone isnt that our right? I prefer these freedoms over government control even if it means people's feelings get hurt or it becomes a problem for the buyer.
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Daniel Ginther
As it should be, God does not condone or endorse homosexuals nor would he ever sanctify a homosexual marriage....Whats the big deal....Homosexual couples can get married by a judge....And dont force me to go against my christian beliefs and quit labeling hate to everything you disagree with.
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Paul Edward Nunis
The OT Scripture of God, and the NT teachings of Jesus often conflict. Either you stone your raped daughters to death, or you don't. Either you choose the lake of fire, or you don't. Either you do as the Pharisees, or you don't.
The way to serve the 2 masters of Jehovah and Christ at the same time, is through bearing false witness and hypocrisy.
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Daniel Ginther
The Homosexual LGBTQ party is the party of Hate....If you disagree with them, they hate you......Frankly I could give a hoot anymore, go have a Chick-fil-a sandwich and wash it down with a could Bud Light !
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/nearly-1-700-priests-clergy-accused-sex-abuse-are-unsupervised-n1062396
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/19/new-jersey-catholic-diocese-alleged-sexual-abuse-settlement
https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/09/us/oakland-catholic-diocese-bankruptcy/index.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/probe-identifies-158-priests-accused-abuse-600-victims/story?id=93565644
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Daniel Ginther
The LGBTQ Homosexual group are the people who support child molestation and mutilation....Frankly they should be rounded up like cattle and sent to the Middle East
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Christopher Peterson
How disgusting. How dare you claim to be a Christian and speak with such hate and misinformation. It's people like you who chase people away from the church.
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Daniel Gray
Really? then WHY are they supporting that children get mutilated as young as 7 or 8? They still don't even know what they want to wear or what they want for supper but the LGBTQ people want to allow them to have sex changing operations and drugs? And you claim that I am wrong? I guess you didnt hear the chant they put out in their last "pride Parade" which they chanted "We are here and we are queer and we are coming for your children"
Its people like you with your head in the sand that is causing the problem
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Doesn't happen. It's all just right-wing propaganda.
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Daniel Gray
happens all the time ken or are you calling the AMA liars now as they clearly are doing that to you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Post your proof here.
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Daniel Gray
Already did and you refused to accept it or even look at it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Not good enough.
You just told everyone you have no proof.
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Daniel Gray
No YOU are the one making claims and providing only sources that helped make your OPINIONS that you want people to accept as fact/
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You don't like that I have sources that disprove you?
So sad for you.
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Daniel Gray
already DID prove you lied.
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Robert Gagnon
Munchhausen syndrome is a factitious disorder, a mental disorder in which a person repeatedly and deliberately acts as if they have a physical or mental illness when they are not really sick.
Munchausen by proxy, When a parent causes illness or harm to their child for attention. Parents of trans are even worse.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Well put
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James Riggle-Johnson
@Daniel Ginther. It is comments like this that I question my faith in Christianity. With this type of thinking, when will we start rounding up homosexuals and taking them to gas chambers? What makes this different than Hitler rounding up 6 million Jews and murdering them?
There are no organized religions that support this type of action, so where do you get this type of evil from? What happened in your life to make you think like this? I feel sorry for you. I pity you.
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Daniel Gray
And its people like you that make me feel sorry for you since you cant accept reality
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James Riggle-Johnson
Daniel, I think you are going to be so surprised when you finally meet God.
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Daniel Gray
I dont think so. You on the other hand may need to give that statement some thought for yourself.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Here's some reality for you:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/nearly-1-700-priests-clergy-accused-sex-abuse-are-unsupervised-n1062396
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/19/new-jersey-catholic-diocese-alleged-sexual-abuse-settlement
https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/09/us/oakland-catholic-diocese-bankruptcy/index.html
https://abcnews.go.com/US/probe-identifies-158-priests-accused-abuse-600-victims/story?id=93565644
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Daniel Gray
Nice try. Using clearly biased myths to try and prove your point and failing miserably
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Those are thousands of real actual people.
Are you calling their trauma and pain a "myth"?
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Daniel Gray
Try and use non biased sources if you can
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You mean sources you agree with?
That would be completely biased, politicized, propagandized.
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Daniel Gray
No sources that dont just come from left wing sites. Whats Wrong Kenny, having trouble understanding english?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I understand propaganda - unlike you.
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Daniel Gray
I would expect you do understand propaganda as you use it constantly when you post here
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Pamela Kay Waters
And what anout the catholic priests???
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Daniel Gray
ANY person, regardless of who it is; that assaults a child in any way needs to be strung up by the short hairs or have the prison they are being sent to, given Viagra and then have them dropped in the middle of the "yard" naked and let the prisoners deal with them
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What about the LEADING causes of death of children? What would you do about that yourself DG?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMp2200169
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Daniel Gray
Yet again trying to use a biased poll by maybe three people to try and support your argument? Sorry but it isnt going to work Ken
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James Riggle-Johnson
You believe what you want to believe. It doesn't change the fact that you are wrong. People believe what they want too. That fisn't a biased poll. It is fact, and the parents of those children are still broken because of their loss.
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Daniel Gray
I stand by facts, not some myth from people who Kenny wants to try and imply that they agree with him.
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Daniel Gray
Stand by what the law says, but you wont do that as it does not agree with your rant.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What's with you and the '3 people' thing? I have no idea what you are talking about. You didn't even look at the link, did you.
That link is from the New England Journal of Medicine, a respected medical science publication established in 1811. It's not a media or 'news' site. They conducted the study, and the full weight of their reputation stands behind everything they publish.
This is what is really killing children - and conservatives and religious conservatives have ZERO to say about it. Just like the clergy sex abuse problem, you are BLIND to REALITY.
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Daniel Gray
SO you are admitting that you dont even read the links you try and post here? Its clearly in your link so if you dont know where it came from then why try and use some myth in the first place? So we all know who is blind to reality. Have someone mention you are passing a mirror so you can say hello to the problem
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You are delusional.
NEJM - New England Journal of Medicine.
It's not rocket science.
Remember - other people can see - other people can read.
Again - seek professional help.
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Daniel Gray
Oh you mean the same people who say the following https://www.webmd.com/baby/when-can-a-fetus-feel-pain-in-the-womb https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/7247-fetal-development-stages-of-growth
So since your claim was destroyed yet again maybe you should take your own advice for the professional help and stop tilting at windmills
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"Tilting at windmills"
Oh wow a literate quote! Did you read that on 4chan?
And you have a dead link there Einstein.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Why should i delete this post? Just because there is truth to this and it makes them cringe?
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ServantOfJudgement
We have a right to contract which instantly and automatically implies the right to not contract. A win for constitutional right.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Without a justifiable reason, it still constitutes discrimination, when one says, "I won't serve you BECAUSE YOU'RE GAY".
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Robert Edward Szekely
A business doesn't survive by refusing contracts. Normally, there are reasons, such as: the cost of executing the contract will exceed the revenue earned by the services that will be provided, the contractor is already overcommitted, and cannot take on any more work, the contractor will be unavailable during such-and-such period of time due to vacation/illness/family matters/professional seminars, etc.
Let's just be honest and call a bigot a bigot shall we? She should have the moral fiber to be honest and probably put a sign in her window that states her position clearly, e.g., "I won't serve queers because I don't like them because I think they're icky." (or someth
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ServantOfJudgement
Robert,
I agree with you as a blanket statement, meaning if a general business refuses to contract with a person strictly because they're gay its bad mojo.. if it's a specific thing the customer is doing and the company just can't get behind it then it may be ok. If I were a web designer I would not contract with a person that's celebrating their abortion for example. Regardless of abortions legality, I personally just couldn't stomach the job. Now if I refuse the work because the woman is white, black, gay hindu or whatever, then I'm on the hook for the bad mojo... I think that's the case with this business.
Stay safe
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I appreciate your posts here RES, but I do feel you are missing one important point, and that is conservatives are celebrating this decision expressly because they WANT to discriminate.
In SOJs reply, for example, he explains that he would deny someone service because of abortion. SOJ is very religious you see, and he has explained to me that he feels that everybody else should be subject to his religion. Other conservatives, as you explained so well, are bigoted, and in fact feel everybody else should be subject to their bigotry. It's about control, and they are unwilling or unable to understand that antidiscrimination laws are designed expressly to negate that type of ignorant and bigoted attempt to control.
This is what it's really all about.
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ServantOfJudgement
Not so fast Kenneth,
I said I would not build a website for someone CELEBRATING their abortion. I could not bring myself to do the work.
I would sell an ice-cream cone to someone that just got an abortion. Not hard to scoop ice cream and sell it.
Very big difference.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That's some hair-splitting I haven't seen before. Congrats.
But it is a hollow statement. People don't "celebrate" abortions.
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Randal Ketner
Government coerced speech is not discrimination. It's clearly a violation of the First Amendment. The court ruled correctly.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The First Amendment does not justify discrimination against individuals who are members of a disadvantaged and recently oppressed and long-ostracized group based on amorphous claims of religious justification. Belief that marriage is defined as the union of one man and one woman has absolutely zero bearing on providing goods or services to queer persons, unless the service is question is to actually OFFICIATE the WEDDING CEREMONY. All other arguments are specious, originating from "holier-than-thou" bigotry which "methinks doth complain too much".
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Robert Edward Szekely
How exactly is a business serving a customer "government coerced speech"? Legally, a gay/queer customer is no different from a black customer, a Muslim customer or an Indian customer. None of these have an impact on which church you attend of how you pray. When you open a business, you offer goods or services for sale to the public. It is a business transaction, not a moral pulpit. You set the prices for your offerings: it your customers are able to meet your price, as long as they remain courteous, considerate and respectful, you have no reasonable grounds upon which to deny any of the servierce. You cannot justify selectively denying service to certain members of the public for no other reason than because they are members of groups your have predetermined are unworthy or receiving your offerings. That is called discrimination, and discrimination is illegal. SCOTUS has made an erroneous ruling in this case which supports a bigoted rationale hiding behind a veil of false-religiosity.
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Christopher Peterson
Being completely honest, the business has the right to not serve anyone for any reason, BUT that also means I personally will not give them my business. I can't stand how so many of our fellow Christians don't understand the difference between "my religion says what I can and can't do" and "my religion says what you can and cannot do". I think the business is wrong for this decision, especially while claiming to be Christian, and it will only reduce the business they receive. Now, Christian hetero couples with LGBTQ+ loved ones are going to go elsewhere. They lost the entire gay community's business forever. All members of the LGBTQ+ community and nearly all allies. It's really sad when businesses pull this move.
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Robert Edward Szekely
I must disagree with the "any reason" argument. A patron who abides by basic rules and policies of the establishment by rights SHOULD NOT BE ARBITRARILY DENIED SERVICE, as that constitutes the definition of discrimination. If I say that conditions of receiving service at my establishment are you must wear a suit and tie and be over the age of 21, not smoke inside, and be reasonable and respectful of other patrons, and you abide by all of these terms, I cannot refuse you service because I think you're fat or ugly, or I don't like the color of your hair, or you wear big glasses, and I don't like people who wear big glasses. Maybe I don't like your accent, or people who come from certain countries, just "because". My point is, "any reason" is an invalid argument. That applies in your home, not in a business open to the public. You're thinking of uninvited guests who don't have an official purpose. Your business doesn't operate under the same rules as your home. If it's a private club, then things change a bit.
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Fuller Watts Crowley
Resistance breeds resistance. Why would someone insist that a person who literally hates them for silly reasons make a website or cake for them? Or anything? Go somewhere else where you feel supported and happy. Problem solved. Let the haters stick to their miserable little worlds. There's nothing to be done for them until they make the internal changes that open their hearts. And many won't, which is OK and not our job to manage. :)
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Alexander Arends
I think many of us are confusing "hate" with "conviction". That is sad. There is nothing wrong with acting on our convictions. We just have to be willing to face the consequences. Just don't have the government tell me how to think.
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Thomas A. Follis
Had the SCOTUS taken sides with the gay folks violate the web designers rights? NO. so how did the SCOTUS violate the gay couples rights? This is ridiculous. It should be a given folks. If I say no, that means “No service for you from me”. REAL SIMPLE. No way was gay rights set back a day, a month or a year. Grow up. Find something real to cry about.
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Robert Edward Szekely
That eerily echoes the sounds of "we don't serve your kind here" spoken to Negroes a generation ago. Slavery was once justified on religious grounds, too - but we have since matured enough to recognize that it is nonetheless immoral to deprive others of equal civil rights because we perceive them as different from ourselves. I vociferously reject these specious arguments, as they are plainly and obviously false. They are not about religious freedom, as religious freedom is about worship, not bigotry. Judging others as "less than I" hasn't the remotest connection to being able to worship a deity according to the dictates of one's own conscience. Imperfect humans judging other imperfect humans purporting to be an act of expressing religious freedom is like one criminal trying and sentencing another criminal in lieu of using a court of law.
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Robert Edward Szekely
When you open a business, you are offering goods or services for sale to the "public". The public generally means "everyone".
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Pamela Kay Waters
Everyone has their right to refuse service to anyone they want to.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Wrong. As per usual. This sets up theocratic fascists with an excuse to not serve LGBTQ+ people everywhere. An in many places that means services that are very necessary.
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Russel A. Kester
Thomas, I'm sure you'll feel the same way when everyone decides to not serve non-whites or maybe not serving straight, white men who are now minority. So tell us your stats so we can be sure to discriminate against you.
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James Riggle-Johnson
But that is the problem, Russel. This has opened the door for anyone to say "We Don't Serve Straight People." or whatever group you wish to insert. It goes against my free speach, or sincerely held relious beliefs. It will lead us down a road we don't want to go down. It's sad.
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Lynda Louisse Dickerson
Lorie Smith isn't the only web designer in town. Her refusal to serve certain potential customers just means more business for those who do. Money talks.
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Pamela Kay Waters
And so do people's religion
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
All I know is in April of 1989 I put my right hand on a Holy Bible an gave a vow before God (YHWH) when I joined the United States Navy 1) that I'd "Protect the citizens of the United States of America". 2) that I'd "protect the Constitution of the United States of America ". 3) that I'd "Protect the Office of the President of the United States of America ". Not necessarily the person setting in the chair. Over the decades I've grown,fallen and grew some more in my spiritual journey. I've been betrayed by the nation other's & I got shot to protect. I've gone to prison over a nonexistent crime and the same Federal courts denied justice. Ruling "The constitution is nothing but a piece of paper with ink blots" that Correction Officer can beat prisoners as long as it's for entertainment and not "punishment". Handcuff a man naked to a bunk and allowed other prisoners to rape him for a week for entertainment. Judges can tell the defendant "f- you" in open court. Convict people without evidence or crime. Allege victim say not crime happened is thrown out the courtroom. Now, cases like this in land of the free undermining everything me and other veterans fought, bleed and died for. Remember this happened during the Demoncats time in charge who are supposed to be allies with the LGBTQ+ community. Next year election if you don't see the Veterans Party candidate Me, Miche'al Joseph Dixon you have your prof the election is rigged and fony. They blocked mine and 200 others names from the ballots last election; if the LGBTQ+ community wants a real political Allie, I don't personally agree with their choice but it's their choice not another's to dictate to. FYI; I have a transgender brother and lesbian sister.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
Oh, add on The State of Louisiana denied me authority as a minister because I'm a convicted felon and registered sex offender. (Now with open warrant because I don't have extortion fee to pay the sheriff's office). The certificate the Church ordained me with is unless in Louisiana.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
Actually Amber Fry is correct; Amendment I "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble; and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Me and many other this is one of many Rights we fought killed and bleed and died to protect. Regardless of whether you worship some god or gods or just a goddess or claim none at all; Whether you are red, green, purple or blue; whether you are straight, homosexuals, transgender, asexual, bisexual, polymorphic, or xsexual; whether you believe in creation by God, aliens, Borg, time lords or transformers or evolution of billions of years with a zillion to one shot. All this doesn't matter if the Government is gonna wipe their behinds with the Constitution then slap Everyone in the face with it. That's the topic of this feed I thought. And there is a LOT of comments.
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David Richard Procter
Somebody wrote in response to my comment: "And I suppose you would say that about Harris as well? Or Michelle Obama? Harris is married to a white man and Michelle is married to a man who is half black and half white. So tell us what race has to do with this."
Must have been deleted, because I cannot find it.
My answer: Stop your god-damn "Whataboutism" and try to focus on what I wrote.
(I am tired of this web site and am about to rescind my ordination. Too much corruption, stupidity and ignorance.)
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Elsie L Aimable
I am a 61-year-old grandmother. It isn't discrimination. Everyone has their own opinions. If someone doesn't want to do something for you. You can always find someone else's to do it. I don't understand why everyone getting angry or upset because someone doesn't want to do something. It's their rights. Just like we have rights. WOOOWW everyone is different if we all do what everyone else do this would be a boring world. I am so happy my gay family members do not push anything on anyone else. I love them and when they tell me this person didn't want to do something for them I say find someone else who will. RIGHTS, LET EVERYONE LIVE THEIR OWN LIVES.PEACE AND LOVE TO ALL. YES I AM YELLING🥰
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Nicholas John Stricker
The right to refuse service to anyone is a business owners rights....no one has the right to force me into serving someone I chose not to serve.. .your rights end where mine begins.....
I will not be supporting any business who discriminates for such unprofessional reasons as religion, ethnicity, skin color, gender... well, basically, any business which discriminates.
Likewise I will refuse to provide service to anyone who makes a production of their religion, like wearing crosses and so forth. I'm so tired of them pushing their agenda in my face. Why can't they just keep it to themselves?
Chris I like the way you think
I am flabbergasted that Rev Mark D and I actually agree in something! Finally!! Feels good.
So why then are you pushing your agenda in their face when the Constitution says you cant?
Sorry to burst your bubble but the Constitution says no such thing. Either you have a poor grasp on the Constitution or you failed to comprehend Chris' comment; perhaps both.
Yes it does or are you ignoring the 1st Amendment which says you cant make a law that violates another persons religion? Or are you just trying to show your lack of knowledge?
Or to favor it either. Read the whole thing or stop bringing it up.
Awww mad because you cant refute me?
Jesus never said anything about refusing to serve people based on their sexual orientation. He was about forgiving sinners their transgressions and living in brotherhood. Anyone who claims that Christianity justifies their bigotry against LGBTQ persons is perverting what Christ taught, by weaponizing false religious teachings as a shield to hide their racism. This has absolutely nothing to do with religious freedom. There was NOTHING In HIS ministry to justify this: it's not in the 613 mitzvot (commandments) of the Hebrews or the Decalogue (Ten Commandments). The Book of Leviticus contained proscriptions to prevent Levite priests from desacralizing themselves. We stopped stoning adulterers and insolent children to death millenia ago, so what's the deal with this malarkey? It ain't religion, that's for certain.
The Bible defines marriage in Genesis 2:24 as a union between one man and one woman. Jesus Christ upholds this definition of marriage in Matthew 19:5, as does the Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:31. Any and all sexual activity which takes place outside of this context is treated as sinful, what Jesus calls ‘sexual immorality’ in Mark 7:21.
Further to this, same-sex practice is specifically highlighted as sinful a number of times in Scripture. In God’s Law, for example, condemnations of same-sex practice are given in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13. Further references are made in the New Testament. For example, in Romans 1:24-32, amid echoes to the Genesis creation account, both male and female same-sex practice are treated as sinful. Further references to the sinfulness of same-sex practice can be seen in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10.
The Scriptures are, therefore, consistent in their prohibition of same-sex sexual activity, across different periods of salvation history and within different cultural settings. Although the Scriptures are clear on sexual ethics, they also tell us that the prospect of forgiveness and eternal life is held out for anyone who turns from sin and puts their faith in Christ (Mark 1:15), no matter how they may have fallen short of his good design for sex and marriage.
Then your religion is incompatible with the reality of humanity - and that is why it will eventually fall away.
So if a state becomes majority Muslim and they codify Sharia Law, that’s OK?
Actually no, because that would be in violation of the 1st Amendment. You know the pesky little clause in the Constitution that says you cant make a law that violates anothers religion or any religion for that matter.
You've got some good company.
https://source.wustl.edu/2017/08/washu-expert-first-amendment-nazi-flag/
too bad kenny, I figured it wold not be too long before you started with the implied name calling because you cant refute the 1st amendment and people didnt just bow down and kiss your behind. Get ready Kenny as the present SCOTUS rules by what the constitution says and not by what you want it to say
No daniel, you have it backwards. Chris is refusing to spend his money with those whose opinions and practices he disagrees. That's the core of Liberty and being American.
Mark, I don't have a dog in this fight, and Chris does have a right to make their own commerce choices, so why can't this web creator make their own commerce choices? What's the difference? Now, in no way do I support bigoted beliefs, but I also believe in fair play. Why would anyone try to do business with someone that doesn't want your business? There are PLENTY of people that would be happy to provide goods and services. I believe situations like this are used so someone can have their 15 minutes of fame. Bigots generally don't stay in business long, unless of course you give them free advertising like this. Not only did this person WIN a supreme court decision, but if they decide to go for business they will be booked for awhile. So all this 15 minutes of foot stomping did was to now open up more protections. Just let it go. The bigots will fall off in the end. Believers are dwindling. Please, think before acting on impulse.
While this certainly has not been the case in the incidents brought up so far, what happens if there is no other business for a person to go to? They may not have a choice but to spend their money there. And if that business refuses to serve them, then what can they do? You could just as easily argue that if your religion prevents you from serving a member of the public, you shouldn't work on a job that provides services to the public. I don't see why this is even an issue. Jesus didn't refuse to deal with those he saw as sinners. I don't feel like I'm more righteous than Jesus.
That was my thought exactly. Resistance breeds resistance. Why would someone insist that a person who literally hates them for silly reasons make a website or cake for them? Or anything? Go somewhere else where you feel supported and happy. Problem solved. Let the haters stick to their miserable little worlds. There's nothing to be done for them until they make the internal changes that open their hearts. And many won't, which is OK and not our job to manage. :)
Surely there are better ways to spend this beautiful day, than feeding someone who just claimed that the 1st Amendment says that laws against religious killings (such as those demanded by Leviticus and wahabbists) are 'unconstitutional'.
And who said this? Not me nor anyone else in this thread so one has to wonder why you even brought it up?
No I have it correct. He is saying that he wont support your business if you dont think the way he does. IN that he can do it. But to try and put a person out of business for doing what the Constitution says they can do is clearly wrong
No Daniel you do not have it correct, boycotts happen all the time and that is not forcing somebody out of business, that's just choosing to use somebody else for their business. Look at what happened with the Bud light thing. This marketing executive decided to add a trans influencer because she thought that might attract more business and it backfired because a lot of people didn't like that and stop buying Bud Light. They didn't course Bud Light into doing anything they simply withdrew their business. The way commerce works is you get people to pay you voluntarily, you influence them to do so and if what you do has the opposite effect that's your misread of your market. They aren't trying to put you out of business, they just aren't favoring you with their money because they have a choice to where they can go. If you were one of those Bud Light drinkers who decided you did not like what that marketing executive did, then you would buy somebody else's beer, that is not you trying to force them out of business you are simply voting with your dollars which is entirely your right. Don't you see that? I think you do once you tighten up your reasoning a little bit.
Yes I do have it correct. Take for instance disney. they ticked off so many people with their actions that a lot of people have stopped buying their product (boycotting) and they are in the process of selling Lucas films back to Lucas, shut down Euro Disney and the one in China, laid off a total of 14,000 people, have already destroyed Marvel (their last three super hero comic movies have flopped so badly that they will never make their money back and dont even get me started about the Indiana Jones and the Dial of Diarrhea movie. And they may have to look into selling one or both of their amusement parks. According to their accountants they have only 2.5 million in liquid assets and well over 75 million in costs. Look at Budweiser. They insulted and ticked off their core customers and now they cant even give it away, fired the two people who started this effectively ending their careers as nobody is going to want to hire them in case they do the same thing to their company and its fallen to the level that the stock holders are demanding the CEO of Budweiser resign or the BOD fire him. Look at Target who is swiftly falling in line right behind Budweiser. Heck even Google is dropping out of supporting Pride month and gatherings because they are afraid of this happening to them. And I can name you even more.
My reasoning is sound and its simple. You get refused as a customer or you dont like the policies of the store then just dont shop there. Nobody is forcing you to do so Just what I told Chris. You dont like their policies, then dont shop there. But if you whine and cry about it then its just going to come back and bite you in the end. Just like Viola Davis who claimed that if you didnt go see the flop called The Woman King, you were a racist bigot. Or like netflix and Jada Smith who tried to change the race and color of Cleopatra, who was Greek, to being black. And had her contract with Netflix destroyed when even the Egyptian Government sued Netflix because of this.
This is one thing that both sides of the political fence are going to have to learn and learn quick as in my own opinion, this must stop and is the reason for the court decisions that recently came out as they are doing what the Constitution says to do. Nothing more and nothing less.
Right-wingers will believe anything.
https://dorksideoftheforce.com/2023/06/21/no-disney-isnt-selling-lucasfilm/
And you come along and try to use a fan site as your source? Ok since you want to try and use a fanbase as your source then here you go, another fan base that say they are selling Lucas Films back to george lucas https://www.change.org/p/fans-george-lucas-to-buy-back-starwars-40d5b104-432a-4763-bdd9-b8a95e0b020e
Dg - have you ever looked at how you construct your arguments? I assure you others have.
"fan site" - an obvious disparagement, obviously designed to mock and belittle the source.
Fair enough - but if the best counter-argument you can come up with is a source you yourself have already belittled, how desperate do you think that makes you look? Because if you had any real proof, you would do better.
But there is none.
If wearing crosses is such an annoying display then the rainbow thing must really annoy you. What's the difference? Why is it so important that everyone has to know peoples sexual orientation? Why must naked gay bicyclists have to throw their junk in little kids faces during pride marches? At least the cross stands for morals and social order, whether some deserve to wear it or not. As opposed to self gratification and aggrandizement.
@Robert, it’s not important for people to know our sexual orientation, but when someone sees two men holding hands it’s assumed they are gay, and people freak out saying “keep that in your bedroom.” On the other hand, if a man and woman are seen holding hands then it’s suddenly okay. Why should I have to hide my affection for my husband because it makes other people uncomfortable? I’m not running around naked or having sex on the street.
Now today, if someone wears a rainbow symbol it’s automatically assumed they are gay, and people are screaming keep it to yourself. Why do people have to become so hateful when they see anything that reminds them gay people exist? And I’m not talking about Pride events where people are dressed scantily. But if a parent wants to bring their kids to the event, isn’t that up to them? People have no problem bring their kids to a beach where women are running around is the smallest bathing suit know to man.
Personally, I would not do business with someone who hates my existence. I would also encourage everyone I know not to do business with that person. However, if that person starts losing money, they cry foul. People won’t do business with me because of my sincerely held religious beliefs. Soon we will have signs on business doors “Straights Only” or “Homosexuals Only”
Robert, when fundamentalist Christians are somewhere between 3 - 7% of the population than no one will care. Gays and lesbians have been about that same percentage of the population forever. Lastest evidence indicates it's just something nature does in all animal species (especially sheep) not just humans. The difference is that gay people never hunted down and killed straight religious people, but your kind have and did so in the most horrible ways possible and all the while claimed to be doing so in the name of God. Also gay pride is here because religious bigots told gays and lesbians that they were abominations and mentally sick. It's all so sad. So Pride events allow the gay community to celebrate how wonderful they are as special creations of God. Straight people and businesses are welcome to join but it's never required and no one is killed for not participating.
I never hunted anyone down, I believe you all deserve your day in the sun, but not a month. Flashing children? there's no excuse. Trying to force an ideology on every kid with severe punishments including expulsion for not complimenting another kids oddity? Human beings are tribal by nature, they will gather and find the ones least like them to villainize. It will always be an us or them situation. As a minority it stands to reason that you seek exclusivity for your tribe. Demanding equal say against the 93% majority (your numbers). Actually there are many more LGB than that, just secretive. Historically the minority never wins, maybe small battles, which encourage them to become more aggressive. This behavior unites the majority to smite the agitators to preserve the status quo. It's not right but it is human nature. Radical elements on both sides get the attention while average people like you and me debate, watch, or join the foray. History does not lie. Of course the winners write it.
Robert, I found much in your reply that I can agree with. You're a thoughtful person. I defend my statement of gay men being killed by straight people because it's not only history which anyone can read, but I personally experienced having someone I loved very much beaten to death by a group of homophobic pricks. 40 years later I still cry to think of what they did to him.
As far as flashing children, that seems more associated with a personal opinion. Europe has family nude beaches and their children are just fine. So just seeing someone's nudity doesn't cause irreparable damage.
I go with the 3 - 7% figure instead of the often quoted 10 - 15% because it is a lower and therefore more conservative figure.
Kids in school are exposed to ideas and realities their parents would rather ignore because that is where Henry Ford's ideas of America as a great melting pot becomes a reality. But exposing them to these realities just might help them to be much more tolerant and kind to others.
I think your insight into what happens to a minority when it goes beyond reasonable demands for tolerance and equality to trying to 'convert' society to its own identity is the very issue with the trans community and why a growing number of gay guys and lesbians are distancing them selves from it because they see the damage being done to them because of the vociferous trans activists.
I look forward to reading your comments on other issues.
This subject should be kept away from the kids in schools. Heterosexuals aren't pushed in schools and a lot of schools get in trouble for even bringing the subject up.
Heterosexuality is absolutely pushed in schools when the schools prevent homosexuality from being discussed. You're trying to deny a child the opportunity to express themselves and have beneficial conversations with educators when you keep LGBTQ+ out of schools. There are going to be LGBTQ+ students in schools whether you discuss the subject in schools or not.