Do Christian business owners have to serve LGBTQ couples? A Christian web designer is challenging a Colorado law that protects LGBTQ individuals from discrimination, arguing that the law violates her religious liberty. More specifically: her right to turn away same-sex couples on the basis of her Christian faith.
Web designer Lorie Smith has appealed all the way to the Supreme Court, which just agreed to hear the case in its next session later this year. In this latest clash between religious liberty and LGBTQ rights, which side will win?
No Website For You
Smith says her Christian faith prohibits her from designing wedding-related websites for same-sex couples. Since 2016, she’s been fighting the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act in court, arguing that potentially being compelled to produce a website for a gay couple violates her freedom of religion.
Interestingly, this is all preemptive – no same-sex couples have approached Smith about creating a wedding website.
She wanted to expand into the wedding website space, with a disclaimer on her website that wedding-related services would only be available to heterosexual couples. She feared running afoul of the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, so she preemptively filed a legal challenge.
The case moved through lower courts, with Smith appealing every time a lower court in Colorado sided against her. The lower courts consistently argued that the rights of LGBTQ individuals trumped Smith’s right to discriminate on the basis of religion.
With the Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) at her back, Smith made it all the way to the Supreme Court.
The ADF is pulling no punches, stating that “the government doesn’t have the power to silence or compel creative expression under the threat of punishment. It’s shocking that the 10th Circuit would permit Colorado to punish artists whose speech isn’t in line with state-approved ideology.”
Here We Go Again
If it all sounds a bit familiar to you… that’s because it is. You likely remember the case of Colorado baker Jack Phillips back in 2018, who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple. He claimed that his cakes were art, and that being compelled to bake a cake for a same-sex couple was a violation of his ethics and deeply-held religious beliefs. "I didn't want to use my artistic talents to create something that went against my Christian faith," he stated at the time.
The Supreme Court agreed with him in a 7-2 ruling, but it wasn’t the decisive ruling that activists were hoping for. Instead of a decision that would enshrine legal religious discrimination against same-sex couples as the law of the land, the ruling was so narrow that it could basically only apply to Jack Phillips.
In essence, they punted.
Since then, basically every type of wedding vendor under the sun has objected to a same-sex client at one point or another, from invitation designers to florists to Jack Phillips again, who was sued a second time when he refused to make a cake for a transgender woman.
One wedding venue in Mississippi even turned down a mixed-race couple on the basis that interracial marriage violates their Christian faith (...we must have missed that particular verse in the Bible?).
The Supreme Court will ultimately decide if Lorie Smith’s objections to designing wedding websites for gay clients is a valid religious objection or not, and whether the case will actually set a precedent for the future, or again be an extremely narrow ruling.
Should she be able to say “no” to a gay couple that wants a wedding website made? Or, if you’re going to offer a service to the public, should you have to offer it to everyone?
91 comments
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Ryan R. Shaw
It's her misguided self-righteous time in the spotlight; she 'doth protest too much'. And why would anyone shop where they're not welcome? My husband and I are in our early 70's and love to travel, both domestic and abroad. We still ask when renting homes, cabins, apartments if a gay couple will feel comfortable/welcome in their rental. Once we were told we would NOT feel comfortable there, we replied, "Thank you for your honesty" and found an even better rental elsewhere.
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Clay Serenbetz
Why would anyone want to patronize a business where the proprietors hate you?
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Rev Mark D
You know, I suspect in all this time nobody has actually ever thought of that. You know how screwball dedicated political activists/advocates on all sides are.
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Ronald Odom
"Interestingly, this is all preemptive – no same-sex couples have approached Smith about creating a wedding website.
She wanted to expand into the wedding website space, with a disclaimer on her website that wedding-related services would only be available to heterosexual couples. She feared running afoul of the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, so she preemptively filed a legal challenge."
The strange thing here is that no one has.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Exactly!
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Nicholas J Page
The web designer is out of order for refusing baked goods for gay couples .This is the 21st century gay or straight or transgender. Everyone has a human right to what they want or need in life. I would say to any couple coming from a Heterosexual male Minister go and find another business maybe they will learn not to discriminate against people. God Bless you all.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Why would Christian business owners turn away business and be unchristian to their fellow man? If they would read their Bible they would know this is something Jesus would not have done or encouraged.
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Pedro Pagan Jr
Should a Christian be forced to do what is sin in God eye? Should a person be forced to do what is unpleasant to them? Should a person be forced to go against their will or Conscience Conscience?
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Krystina S.
Well Pedro: I just don't see how selling to someone is "sin." When a person sells an item or service, how do they know in what way EACH AND EVERY PERSON who comes to their door might be somehow doing something of which their religiosity doesn't approve? Some things are not easily visible: others are. Wedding services provided to a couple, both of whom are Satanists/Whatever, have been screwing around with hundreds of people, have engaged in serial rape and torture and murder together, and who are each on their 7th wedding (but are still married to at least 2 previous people), but who are 1 white male and 1 white female, may appear to be just FINE. What about a white male and a black female, or a Muslim couple? are they "anti my beliefs?" Is it obvious, or do they "pass" as nice white (and presumable christian?) people? I just don't get it. What about a transgender woman who easily appears "naturally female" and a man? How would they know? SHAME on this Christofascist who acts all "christian," yet is obviously just ALL BIGOT. WWJD? Jesus would love each person who came to them. Jesus would not discriminate. He wasn't petty and judgmental like that.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
The Bible tells us it is a sin not to support and help your fellow man. Building a web site is not a sin in God’s eye. To live together peacefully in a society we all have to make sacrifices and are forced to go against your will.
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Minister Wilson
Hello Members,
I have thought about this question for some time, and it is difficult, but in many ways, it is essential. I should not be forced to bake a cake depicting a person hanging or a Jew being burned because I should have the right to be a conscientious observer.
However, most people usually base these conscientious objections on disgust or personal dismay with a particular idea (Lent & Lopez, 2002). Of that, we can agree...
Yet, all “rights” are subject to be constrained within the context of societal norms and changes; for example, blacks were not served at restaurants, or they had to ride in the back of the bus. And as a society, we decided that these active discriminatory behaviors were not conducive to the society we were attempting to create.
While it is reasonable to conclude that “hate groups” or organizations affiliated with hate and racism should receive public condemnation and repudiation, the same cannot be said regarding homosexuality. Homosexuality is not an attempt to hurt or discriminate against others; in other words, a person’s sexual orientation should not be considered an active affront to a religion...
So then let’s conclude based on this rationale that
Hate = activate, and Not Hate = passive
So, according to this logic, some of these Christians appear to be purposing; is that they should have the “religious freedom.” to actively discriminate against “passive” members of society because they are insulted.
We have the right to refuse service for any reason except if that right is based on discrimination of a protected class, which arbitrarily causes harm, and very little in the way of public good comes from it...
So, the question is, should religious freedoms have certain limitations. I think they should, and they do.
We charge people with child abuse when they forego medical treatment based on religion, we routinely charge people for killing their “born children” because God told them to, we stop the Pakistani religious father from “honor killing” his daughter because she went on a date, etc...So harm and the notion of the public good are the underlying rationales for non-discrimination laws, as it seems.
What Christians are attempting to codify into law is that they should have the inalienable right to discriminate against people who are attracted to the same sex because God said it was terrible...
Where does that end? Perhaps I don’t want to serve Christians because they lie and are delusional, or maybe I don’t wish to serve blacks or jews because they are heathens or disreputable people, etc..etc...
It seems that we have been down this road before.The bible is directly attributable for these issues all throughout time.
If we should not discriminate against sex, then, sexual orientation should also be protected.
How do we know what a strongly held belief constitutes?
And this country is not based on a Christian theocracy, even though so many Christians want that to be the case. So, unless or until we can legally discriminate against Christians by not allowing them to shop in certain areas or go to the movies, religion should not be referred to as an “active public right” to harm and discriminate against others based on their religious views.
If that be the case then there is no problem with a resturant saying we dont serve police, or Republicans here, and I think most would agree that those actions and rationale would be wrong..as well
Those are my thoughts,
Minister Wilson
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
First off, I don't want someone who hates me to do anything for me. I also wouldn't want to support such a person.
Their God, their Prince of Peace, says to love your neighbor and to not judge others.
But Christians hate sooo many people and are super judgey.When can we declare Christians a hate group?
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Reverend Kurt
You are so on the mark. Christianity has been responsible hate, discrimination, division and ostrification across a large swath of history. The destruction of other cultures and stealing of their lands and children. Given another name (say non christian), this so called religion would be on the terrorist watch list worldwide.
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Lionheart
I can’t see SCOTUS approving that. If they did, the flood gates would be open for all store owners to only sell to their own kind if they wanted to.
Or even worse, websites like Twitter, or Facebook, might start banning people from their right to disagree with their own ideologies, and ban them. Oh……I guess they do 🤷🏼
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Rich Calton
a private business CAN decide to do business with whom ever they want [legally] OR NOT do business with anyone. Like your example of fake book ect....
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Krystina S.
No, Rich. not anyone. Those days are gone for people of color and disabled people. And should be gone in re to gender/sexuality as well. SHAME.
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
Website design is art, not religion. If the website designer is not inspired by the client's request, their mockup graphic will not pass the client's standards, and the client will reject the job. She can say: "My skills do not include what you need."
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Krystina S.
That is a cheap way to refuse. And it is wrong.
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Daniel Joseph Morse
Where is it wrong to say "my skills do not include what you need"? I call that an honest vendor. The vendor did not claim they could do a fine job for that prospective client. .
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Kat Strid
If somebody doesn't want to help me then all that's happening is they're losing out on money I'll go find somebody who will help me who I feel comfortable with I like to say things like what would that business do it Jesus was with the customers I'm going to do the wedding for them would they help them now KAT
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
It's best to stay away from those crazy people who call themselves Jesus, Kat.
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Rev. Elizabeth
Whatever happened to the freedom to one who decides whether they want to do that job or not? I was raised that I had the right to accept or deny what enters my life. It is in the Christian Bible that Homosexuality is a sin. This (or these) individuals are denied based on the Christian belief of the bakery. Why can’t that be accepted as much as the right of the same sex request? I want you, but I don’t want to do for you. Who wins? Since it is a business of the individual who refused, no matter their reason for refusing, they have a right to say no. You go into a flooring business and settle on a type of floor you want installed. Their policy is to check where the flooring will be done before the job will or will not be done. It’s that floorings business to run it that way. They don’t want the job. No matter their reason, they don’t want to do the job. In life we can use our religious belief to not do something, to take more time away from our job for prayer, to have a long lunch time for prayer. Not all are allowed to do this but these people, their religion calls for time of prayer and they can. Why can’t that be applied to all people? It can but the company has the right to say no, you are not that religion so you don’t get that extra time. People who smoke get extra breaks to have a cigarette. Why can’t the non-smokers have that choice. Well they can, they can stand where the smokers stand. I personally pass on that, but I have seen nonsmokers go up with a smoker but stand far away from them so they don’t breath second had smoke. Nothing can me done. Why? The company didn’t state either or in their policy. They do now, but they didn’t.
So this person wants a cake made a certain way, this company says no. So instead of going to other bakers, they take them to court. Their company has the right to deny any customer for their own reason. This is the right of businesses. Go find a bakery who will. This individual wants to be heard and be famous for making someone do something they don’t want to do. The judges need to look at this carefully. The individual has a right to ask and the company has the right to say no. Asking, answering. How simple is that? Wow.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
No homosexuality is listed as an abomination, not a sin. Jesus says to love your neighbor. He includes no exceptions to that. Jesus also says not to judge others. The bible also says that adulterers should be stoned in the streets, yet no one has called for Trump (who is well known for his affairs) to be executed. The bible also warns against bearing a false witness, yet FOX news, AON, and QANON the newsources of the religious right, are full off lies. The bible is all or nothing. You can't cherry pick.
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Krystina S.
I agree with you, Matthew. flugo does not add to the conversation.
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flugo
'ma's stroganov': What an asinine, useless bit of blather! You epitomize picking and choosing unrelated scraps to support your lame viewpoints. The Bible says we should have Jesus as our example. He judged.( Matthew 23:23, 7:6,15-16) And, Jesus APPROVED of OUR judging! (John 7:24) And, where in the Bible does it say there are no exceptions to loving your neighbor? Where? Wrong, again!
You'd do well to do your homework so as to preclude embarrassing yourself.-
Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Please point out the exception in these verses: Mark 12:30-31
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
Unrelated? If you are going to be against the LGBTQ community then you MUST also believe these things, otherwise you're a hypocrite.
Don’t have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don’t wear clothes made of more than one fabric. (Leviticus 19:19)
Don’t cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man cheateth on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10)
If a man lieth with another man, both must be killed. (Leviticus 20:13)
If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16)
If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be “cut off from their people.” (Leviticus 20:18)
Psychics, wizards, witches and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)
If a priest’s daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)
People who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God. (Leviticus 21:17-18)
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
From the book of Deuteronomy:
Anyone who dreameth or prophesieth anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
If anyone, even your own family, suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of its inhabitants, even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-16)
Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)
Women are not allowed to wear the clothing of men and men are not allowed to wear the clothing of women (Deuteronomy 22:5)
From the New Testament:
Slaves must be submissive and obedient to their masters. (Ephesians 6:5)
Women must be submissive to their husbands. (1 Peter 3:1 and 3:5)
Women should not style or braid their hair or wear any adornments (jewelry) or fancy clothing. (I would also presume that wording to include the wearing of make-up and coloring of hair in that context. – 1 Peter 3:3, 1 Timothy 2:9)
Women should be generally submissive and should be quiet, never teach or hold any authority over men. They should just be silent. (1 Timothy 2:12)
Women must wear head coverings in any place of worship. (1 Corinthians 11:4-7)
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Minister Wilson
Greetings Rev Elizabeth,
While I understand the rationale of what your trying to say, I cant tell if you personally have or have not ever been discriminated against because you dont seem to grasp what "harm is"...
What I believe your trying to say is that a business can refuse to serve anyone, well yes and no. Reasons matter. For example can a business refuse to serve black or mexican people because they are black or mexican? Why not the owner holds believes that these people are cursed and flithy Is this okay?Can a business say "oh I'm sorry" we dont serve Jews here? Why not?
Plus, depending on the legal formation of the company, any incorporated entity does not share finances with its owner 2 seperate bank accounts are required. Why? because the company and the owner are 2 distinct legal people. So, an owner cant personally use the funds that an incorporated business has made other than a salary or loan, etc.. So, if the owner of an incorporated entity refuses service based on their religious views, quite frankly their own company should be able to sue them for a breech in their fiduciary duty...Companies are not moral agents they believe in money, laws, and taxes, that is it.
We probably wont see this happen be it could, and should...in some cases.
So lets take you logic even further, okay the gays can just go somewhere else because their gay...Well if you walked in a bank to cash a check or open an account and they said hey we dont like fat women in here, or we cant stand Christians, are hey we dont let women bank in here without their husbands, if your not married go somewhere else, right?
Well, we dont live in a theocracy, and what rights does the consumer have in a free market and free society... If a company harms you or your family you have the right to sue that company...That is how it works...
Moreover, lets say the police, firefighters, or hospitals (some privately owned) say the same thing...If your gay the police wont come to your house, or your house is on fire but hey your a homo let it burn, or even worse, sorry but we dont treat gays here in the emergency room... Is this okay with you "Rev"?
Why not? let the gay homo's deal with their own robberies and assaults, or hey homo buy another house somewhere else, or the hospital is well within its rights to screen patients for their sexual orientation before treating them, if this is okay with you, why? What has the gay person doen to deserve such treatment? And what if that were your friend or loved one, do you think they would have been harmed?
It might start with businesses, but it dosent end there, or are we to go back to good ole days of just blantant discrimination because hey freedom reigns right...
Your view tends to be very myopic on this point because you must believe that "no harm is really being done"...Well, I would argue that your wrong.
Having religious freedom does not give people the right to harm others...
And hey, lets have some checks and balances here does the designer work with divorcees, a person wearing mixed fabrics, people that eat shrimp? If so, why just homosexuality, and with such a lack of consistency for who recieves services how can anyone then claim that her beliefs are strongly held? So, the designer has the right to her religious views but she should not be allowed to "harm" others that have not done anything wrong to her or her business, based on whatever she happens to belief...
Where does this stop, so I would suggest that you consider the broader implications here, religion ought not to be used to actively harm or exclude other non-believing members of society, if that be the case, then the 9/11 hijackers were justified and well within their religious rights to do what they did...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Rev Mark D
If no one has actually tried to get their website made and been denied, can't the SC just punt again based on no one ever having been so damaged?
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Rev. Howard Slayton
Yep they sure can turn them away! It’s called the right to refuse service. It’s legal in a free country like These United States 🇺🇸 of America!
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Reverend Andrew
So if I ran a company and wanted to turn away all Christians or Jewish people then that would be ok with you ?
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Krystina S.
Nope, they sure can't just turn anyone away! It's called a free country like These United States of America, where bigotry- at least against races/ethnicities and disabilities- is ILLEGAL in commerce.
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Rev Mark D
Ok, so she makes the cake, but then maybe she spits in it.
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Ronald Odom
"Interestingly, this is all preemptive – no same-sex couples have approached Smith about creating a wedding website.
She wanted to expand into the wedding website space, with a disclaimer on her website that wedding-related services would only be available to heterosexual couples. She feared running afoul of the Colorado Anti-Discrimination Act, so she preemptively filed a legal challenge." --From the article.
She is asking to put up a sign the equal to "No Blacks Allowed." This is a slippey slope if allowed. I know some will not see that. The rule of law applys to all as per the letter of that law. People beloing to hate groups will start to use it is my religion to spread that hate. case in point, the "The Curse of ham". It was used to justify black slavery as a right.
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Odom,
Very astute observation there because it has all ready started
Another bullet point:
Whites only Church https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-permit-approved-whites-only-church-small-minnesota-town-insists-n1251838
It appears that Conservatives see religion as a means to keep their voting block rieled up and active and in most cases unknowing participants in the culture war. Gay marriage must have been a red-line since gay marriage equates to "Communist liberal progressives" on one end , "and anti-religious inpedements to American family values"...
In either case, they Conservatives have book-end these radicalized talking points because the base operates from a standpoint of fear...
Link "Political Orientations Are Correlated with Brain Structure in Young Adults" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3092984/
So, good job I think your doing a great job...
Thank you,
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Karen Robinson-West
As a Christian I agreed with her in that. I will not perform a marriage to any same sex couple. If it goes against the word of God because God made man in his image and gave Adam Eve to procreate and replenish the earth. Homosexuality is not Biblically correct. Just like everything else in this world, people have taken scriptures to suit their needs to say homosexuality, being transgender, and racism is okay in the sight of God. None of those is okay. As for Mississippi with the interracial couple, the first interracial couple was Moses and his wife Zipporah, a Midianite. Then Solomon and the Queen of Sheba another interracial couple in the Bible. I will marry an interracial couple but never same sex.
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Tom
The number of people who are talking about a bakery when this is about a website developer has me laughing so hard.
Requiring businesses to provide the same services to people of color as they did white people helped to bridge the gap of inequality during the civil rights movement. I would hope that no one here would say that doing so was a bad thing. How different is it to deny someone the same services they provide to a straight person simply because they are gay?
If someone can deny designing a website for a gay person, what would stop a realtor from refusing to sell a home to a gay person? By doing so that community could effectively deny homosexuals from living in their city, even of that person had grown up there. While this example may fit the definition of a slippery-slope fallacy, it’s also been proposed by homophobic organizations in response to these cases around bakers, florists, and website designers.
We should be promoting love not hate and bigotry against those we don’t understand.
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Susan Kay Dalluhn
Any one that hides behind God to show their ignorance is not a Christian but they do need help from God.
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Lionheart
Is one showing their ignorance by standing for a God that hasn't yet been proved to exist? Isn't that real ignorance? Isn't pure indoctrination of anything, without using logic or reason, ignorance?
🦁♥️
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James Lowrance
Atheism is a religion of hate and hypocrisy.
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Lionheart
Thank you for your misguided thoughts.
Atheism is just not being convinced any god is real. Just like you don’t believe in Thor, Vishnu, Krishna et al, which I also don’t believe in, so we are both equal there James. It’s just that I currently don’t believe in your God either.
So, you also have atheistic views towards those other gods, just not your own. Does that make you hate, knowing that you have atheist views about the reality of those gods? I suspect not.
I have love for my fellow man, and in particular those who are sick and suffering, especially children. Does that sound like a person full of hate to you? I am actually there for children in hospitals trying to help them heal, which is much more than your God does. I actually show up for them James. I wish your god did, or any of the others!
🦁❤️
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Jenni Lovsey
Either serve EVERYONE or do NOT be in business!!! You do NOT get a free pass to discriminate against certain groups based on your "religious beliefs"!
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Eileen M. Wright
True
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
BS.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I think I'll open a store, and put a sign on it which states: This is not a Christian business, but we don't mind having Christian customers. Just don't expect us to be very nice about it.
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rebadams7
I work off one principal - no artist, no matter the medium, shall be forced to accept any commision. If the cake is in the case, it should be sold to anyone, if it's a fill in the blank website - open to all. If you want to consult with the artist - in any medium - they get to accept or decline the comission. Period
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Pedro Pagan Jr
In this It would be what courts decide. My question would be, are there any Gay vendors and why not go to them ? Or Is it that they want to make a statement! Just like in Church, why go to a church that their God hates sin and Homosexuality. There is in Greek mythology Homosexual god or gods,, why not open a church? That have the same belief.
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Rod Gesner
She has had no such request.. She is chalenging preemptively; likely to make it a one sided claim of Artistic freedom.. To Me the artistic freedom issue is more than a simple one..as an Artist that makes Magical tools and simple selfdefense tools: (SwordCanes,staffs,wands,sceptors,, knives/Athames) I often refuse either by refusing to lower my prices( I hate bargain hunters, n lying resellers) Or recomending someone face the reality of counting on a knife for self defense when they cannot practice or follow thru to dissabling an opponent. Usualy they walk away.. Sometimes they show the skills n presence that I Will sell after getting a feel of their intents n willingness to train.. Thugs, Dark magic, and any others that turn me off.. I will not sell to them.. On the other hand... ie.. Chict filleys Why patronise a biz that actively supports fascist deprograming and oppresive xstain legislation. But I bet this person has church or gofundme support in creating this paper tiger to fight till Supremes have no choice but ruling ( however they may refuse ir as a spurious claim since No one gay has requested her services.. Xtain Fasciscm serving Overreactions Like this will continue as long as we allow misogynistic homophobic unevolved Fanatics to preach Blame and Eternal torture as a way of intimidating children and lost souls into joining and tithing their criminaly Insane Gangs.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Rod, I'm under doctor's orders to carry a cane and use it as needed, and have thought a lot about buying a sword cane. Do you have an online catalog, or some other way to check out your products? Please let me know. Thanks
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Minister Wilson
Hey Pedro,
A business is not a church... Why doesnt the business owner open a church for doing web pages then?Is she trying to make a statement?
So how that works,
Minister Wilson
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Pedro Pagan Jr
Should a Christian be forced to do what is sin in God eye? Should a person be forced to do what is unpleasant to them? Should a person be forced to go against their will or Conscience Conscience?
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Minister Wilson
Hey Pedro,
It depends on what the "person" or "Christian" is being asked to do. Religion or religious rights do not give or should not allow people to undermine rules that are established for the public good or general welfare of a society. How about the Christian clothes designer forced to mix fabrics, or withholding a divorce proceeding based on religious grounds.
See, nothing in the bible can be universally applied because life is dynamic, not static. For example, thou shall not kill does not mean unless you are being attacked...There are no caveats, only edicts..no rational just trust and faith that god well work it all out for you.
If you dont agree with that, then how come I cannot claim the Mexicans or Blacks at the resturant or on the bus make me uncomfortable because the bible says (or I have interperted it to say) that dark skin color is ungodly?
Before, you answer please consider if this applies here. No one is asking this lady to do anything publicly offensive gay relationships are far older than your bible, no see she is personally offened by what the public has accepted, and using relion as an excuse to discriminate against other people.
So what happens to a gay black man whose husband is a jew, that want web site development services? Which rule or law should be followed?
This is nothing more than the extremme right wing attempting to interject their "religious ideas or values" into public life... I am opposed to this and find it personally disgusting...
If she is not turning away divorcees, idolitors, atheist, etc., its is most likely that this web designer has learned to accept these types of people in society. So why is being gay some line in the sand, now?
I would question her convictions if she had no problems with other sins or sinners in her bible but this is just too much...
No, this is a right wing culture war to roll back protections for LGBTQ rights, to live just like heterosexual couples do, plain and simple. Gays arent out there attempting to convert Christians into there life style, so why should christians have the utter audacity to impose theirs...
So, it depends, on whether or not the those "releigious rights/freedom" deny others their rights or freedoms...in accordance to what type of society best promotes a sense of general welfare for all...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
PS...Just imagine that these people being turned away for cakes and now websites , perhaps even medical treatment or police protection in the future, were your brother or sister, or aunt, or uncle, or you, how unpleasant would you feel?
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Gary Young
They can do whatever they please, however, it reflects sadly on them and their intolerance. You dislike gay people? Then you are insecure about your own sexuality and probably in the closet. Also, didn't Jesus come for sinners?
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Lawrence Albert Taylor II
If you're running a business to make money you do not turn away anyone. One of those people you turned away may have had strong connections to take the business to the next level. Plus with social media as instant news business owner that refuses to serve a customer for religious reasons won't be in business for long
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Minister Carlos Ricardo Walls
Judge not lest ye be judged.All has to answer for the deeds we lived on this earth?It won't be any man or woman doing the judgement on that day.
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Ronaldo
If I judge a person, and choose not to help him commit a sin against God or a fellow man, I would truly hope that God will judge me in the same fashion. God will judge me on how well I denied sinners and how well I served their purposes. Paul told the Corinthians not to associate with sinners, but without judging in some fashion, how would they recognize them?
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Pedro Pagan Jr
Should a Christian be forced to do what is sin in God eye? Should a person be forced to do what is unpleasant to them? Should a person be forced to go against their will or Conscience Conscience?
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Minister Wilson
Hey Pedro,
It depends on what the "person" or "Christian" is being asked to do. Religion or religious rights do not give or should not allow people to undermine rules that are established for the public good or general welfare of a society. How about the Christian clothes designer forced to mix fabrics, or withholding a divorce proceeding based on religious grounds.
See, nothing in the bible can be universally applied because life is dynamic, not static. For example, thou shall not kill does not mean unless you are being attacked...There are no caveats, only edicts..no rational just trust and faith that god well work it all out for you.
If you dont agree with that, then how come I cannot claim the Mexicans or Blacks at the resturant or on the bus make me uncomfortable because the bible says (or I have interperted it to say) that dark skin color is ungodly?
Before, you answer please consider if this applies here. No one is asking this lady to do anything publicly offensive gay relationships are far older than your bible, no see she is personally offened by what the public has accepted, and using relion as an excuse to discriminate against other people.
So what happens to a gay black man whose husband is a jew, that want web site development services? Which rule or law should be followed?
This is nothing more than the extremme right wing attempting to interject their "religious ideas or values" into public life... I am opposed to this and find it personally disgusting...
If she is not turning away divorcees, idolitors, atheist, etc., its is most likely that this web designer has learned to accept these types of people in society. So why is being gay some line in the sand, now?
I would question her convictions if she had no problems with other sins or sinners in her bible but this is just too much...
No, this is a right wing culture war to roll back protections for LGBTQ rights, to live just like heterosexual couples do, plain and simple. Gays arent out there attempting to convert Christians into there life style, so why should christians have the utter audacity to impose theirs...
So, it depends, on whether or not the those "releigious rights/freedom" deny others their rights or freedoms...in accordance to what type of society best promotes a sense of general welfare for all...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
PS...Just imagine that these people being turned away for cakes and now websites , perhaps even medical treatment or police protection in the future, were your brother or sister, or aunt, or uncle, or you, how unpleasant would you feel?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I'd like to make some christians sin against their god, Pedro. Will you catch some for me?
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Ronaldo
Government agencies and monopolies should not be able to deny anyone service due to who they are, but any business that has competition should not be held to that standard. It would be a sad state of affairs if a state agency decided not to issue driver's licenses to gays, or women, or Blacks, or if the local water or electric company decided to cherry-pick their clientele based on race, sex, or gender orientation. On the other hand, if a hairdresser is only good with White people's hair, and there is a boutique down the street that caters to Blacks, why should either be forced to offer services to the other race? Free market can make some of the business decisions for companies. If a bar, for example, denies all entrance to Whites, but a bar down the street does not, then all the racially mixed groups will go to the latter, as would all the Whites. It would be likely that the first bar would eventually go under or change its policies to attract more business. This, of course, is assuming no one will cry racism and sue the bar.
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Mistydawn Elizabeth Carter
Some people seem confused as to what the woman is selling. She is not a baker. She is a website designer. Now in my opinion, let her shoot herself in the foot. If she doesn't want to make wedding websites for same-sex or transcouples, she shouldn't have to. As a pagan I wouldn't force her to choose between her faith and her work. As a human being I wouldn't trust her work. If she is already putting caveats on her work how good is she? Now the baker. He never said he wouldn't sell to the gay couple. He said he wouldn't make a certain type of cake for their wedding. He let them know of cakes he had decorated that were in the display cases and even told them of other businesses that would accept their business. If this couple would have left the review and used someone else the free market would have taken care of this. However, everyone has the right to refuse to work for someone else. Otherwise it's forced labor.
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Michael Barton
As long as you don't qualify for a "public place" you should be in the clear. Not all businesses should be forced to be "public places" like restaurants. And even then you should have the right to freedom of speech, religion, and everything else in the Constitution.
The civil rights acts were noble, but have proven to be against the Constitution. It should be refactored. Behavior (same sex, sex) discrimination should be allowed or discrimination with cause should be allowed. But not if you're the only restaurant or hotel in town. There are gray areas that the law needs to be updated to handle. You have a right to be in business, and choose who you do business with (within reason).
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Robert N Clarkson
Merchants who profess to be Christian, but discriminate in whom they will serve in their business are not following the teachings of the faith.
Doesn’t scripture say Jesus healed the Roman's daughter? Didn’t Jesus preach for us to act towards all others as we want to be treated by them, equally, with tolerance, acceptance, and love?
Yes, hate the activity but not the person. Jesus was criticized for associating with prostitutes, tax collectors, and criminals. His answer to this was he came to heal the sick, not the well!
By our works and deeds we expose our true beliefs.
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Renae Lynn Hagen
That goes against freedom of religion and against god by judging others.. you can't have it both ways. Either you are Christian and don't judge others or not.. the supreme court ruled against one of the 10 commandments.. if that were the case I guess the baker better prepare on going to hell.. if u going to bible bang.. go in 100% not half assed.
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flugo
'renal hag': ' . . . . against god by judging others.' You don't know what you're talking about.
The Bible teaches us to be Chris-like. Jesus judged many times (Matthew 7:6, 15-16; 23:23 among numerous examples).
He even taught us how to judge. (John 7:24) In Luke 17:13 He tells us to 'rebuke', which involves judging.
Life is full of opportunities where even YOU (judge) evaluate, discern, and examine, so get real!
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Amber Fry
These businesses are private businesses. They should have the freedom to decide who they want to provide a service to. They just need to understand and accept that it also comes with a societal response. If they decide to bar same sex marriages then they risk boycotts. Their business. Their choice.
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Jenni Lovsey
No they do NOT have the "freedom" to disciminate.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
it's not discrimination. It's refusing service. No shoes, no shirt, no service. Same scenario.
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Timothy Lee Stewart
My question is, If you have ill feelings towards a business for not granting you service... Why would you want to force them to do so, if you're not planning on using them anyway? There are so many more ministries out there that would be happy to perform the wedding of your dreams without all the added stress. I get it!! You want to prove a point and show the world they need to change their attitude towards the Gay/LGBTQ community.... They aren't Gay/LGBTQ either.... So shouldn't they be taking them to court and force them to be that way as well!? The answer is no of course not! Just as you have free will, so do they. Be you and Strive for the Happier way that pleases You. It would be different if there was a law that said ministering was only legal and binding by a heterosexual Christian ministry..... Um Hello!?
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Pastor Ken
We need believers to stand up for our Faith in anyway shape or form. God Bless you with wisdom. In Jesus name
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Pastor Ken
We believers need to stand up for our Faith in the only true God. God Bless us all.!
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Lionheart
Which "only true God" would that be Ken, and how different is it from all the other "only true Gods" that others follow by faith?
As all you have is faith and no real evidence, how did you determine your faith is the real faith, and all the other faiths were wrong?
🦁♥️
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James Lowrance
What is your agenda here ? Atheism is a religion of narcissism your deity is YOU.
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Lionheart
I am here to address the myth of religion using logic and reason James. Don’t you just love that we are all diverse here at the monastery.org, Pagans, Religionists, and Secularists?
🦁❤️
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Richard Lee Cornell
Your point is what. That I must design a web site for you then I will charge you a huge price. It is against my will and is giving me stress and only by charging you that huge price will make me feel that I'm worthy of designing your web site.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
and that is where you are wrong. I would not serve anyone who sees me as their enemy and they are hell bent on destroying my country's religious and cultural values. Screw that. Hijab or not it will come in handy for them in the next toilet paper shortage.
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Eileen M. Wright
Huh I just read jesus hates divorce I thought this was about a cake n ya if you are being abused divorce is allowed also like what smh
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Eileen M. Wright
Y did I just read about divorce on a post about a website just fyi if you're being abused its biblically acceptable to get a divorce also n remarry if you choose Its a pretty website for love off we discriminate against who can love we fail god
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Diane Minna LaFave
If it's a corporation then you shouldn't have the Right to reuse service. If it is a personal business then you should have the Right to refuse as long as it's not discrimination according to those laws. In this case she is claiming it's against her religion . Because the Government CAN NOT interfere with religion she has the Right to refuse service.
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Leona Weisenbach
I'm not going to make it long. So all I have to say is .. Christian use the Bible to control and hate others. And Christians wonder why they are hated so much....I'm sure if they walked into a place and was told they will not service you because your religion has committed a genocide on Pagan people.....
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rebadams7
I work off one principal - no artist, no matter the medium, shall be forced to accept any commision. If the cake is in the case, it should be sold to anyone, if it's a fill in the blank website - open to all. If you want to consult with the artist - in any medium - they get to accept or decline the comission. Period
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Jason Matthew Watson
Interesting use of the “art” angle. As someone who schooled in art I found that producing it is free and expressive. But these people have entered into another sort of religion: capitalism with consumers as their congregation. As soon as your art is the way you make money you then work for whomever hires you. Does one turn away a client? Maybe suggest someone better suited. I also try to look at it from the client’s side: do you want someone opposed to you doing the job for you?
Cultural climate is changing and it takes time to weed out old prejudices (the article mentions opposition to interracial marriage in this decade?!). We are in that tumultuous time now. Things change, will change. My biggest issue is that people quote scripture of what’s wrong or right without having read verses preceding and proceeding what fits their chosen belief. If they were attuned to all they’d see their own lives and particularly how they conduct business also defies their chosen faith
Providing goods or services for people who may not follow your "beliefs" does not constitute Supporting their whatever. If I were to go to Chick Fil A, they would sell me a sandwich-- EVEN if I had a Wiccan or Jewish or Democratic (party) or Pro-Choice sticker on my car. Even if I wore the hijjab. They are stupid and close-minded and conflate commerce with religious purity tests. Shame on them!!!
Hmm, all four gospels quote Jesus forbidding divorce. Yet so many so called Christians are on their second d or third or fourth marriage. Is the web designer asking about their previous marriages? Or if the bride actually has any business at all in a white dress? Or if the cute flower girl and ring bearer are the brides or grooms illegitimate offspring? Or if they are currently living in sin? I suspect not. Christian values are surprisingly elastic as long as the "sinners" are not a minority.
God hates Divorce unless by unfaithfulness and yet the spouse can forgive you. Christians are not trained in marriage, Titus 2 is one chapter that spells it out. If you love Jesus, Obey his commands and the words of those inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is our duty our sacrifice as Christians if you disagree then leave the church, the faith why waist your time and others.
The character known as God in the bible is an immoral, insecure, genocidal, misogynistic, racist monster who does not deserve praise, worship or respect. How so many people can bow down to that evil character shows how religion poisons people. I feel sorry for the people who are so wrapped up in their religions that they cannot distinguish between what the bible says Jesus taught and their own hatred for people who are different than they are.
For Christ's sake, people think Jesus was white! How ignorant can you get? If he existed at all, he would not have been white.
You do realize that the white dress has bugger-all to do with your religion and everything to do with fashion? No one wore a white dress before Queen Victoria in 1840!
And I am using Chick Fil A because of their despicable Christofascist court battles.
Bull. Any businessman can refuse service to anyone they choose. It's your business. Do as you please.
Certainly a businessman can refuse service, but if he refuses to serve any protected group, such as race, gender, age, etc., he can be sued in court for violating some real or alleged rights. There have been many such cases over the last couple of decades, and often the defendant has lost the case and has to pay restitution. A hundred years ago in America, you would have been right, but not today.
Ronaldo is right. "Christians" used the Bible as a weapon of bigotry and violence for hundreds of years in the U. S. Enough. It is SHAMEFUL to use your "religiosity" to hurt others. Race/ethnicity, disability, gender/sexuality are NOT something that a person needs to Approve Of Personally-- because they make a living providing services TO THE PUBLIC. And that means to PEOPLE. Even a white and black couple. Even a couple where one has a disability. Even a Republican and Democrat couple. Even a gay couple.
I agree with Ronaldo. You do NOT have the so-called "right" to refuse services to people because you, for example, don't like black people, or a white person and a black person being together. Or asian people. Or disabled people. "Good Bible-Fearing Christians" refused services to non-white people for CENTURIES in the U.S., and used their "Bible Tells Me So" rationale. Bigotry is just WRONG and UNCHRISTIAN. Like race, ethnicity, disability, gender should not matter.