When the Supreme Court ruled in his favor back in June, Jack Phillips probably thought he'd cleared his last legal hurdle. But the Colorado baker who spent the last six years in the national spotlight for refusing to design a cake for a same-sex wedding has now landed back in court this time in a case involving transgender rights.
Reports allege that transgender lawyer Autumn Scardina called the Masterpiece Cakeshop in Lakewood, CO back in June 2017 with a special request. She asked for a cake with a blue exterior and a pink interior to celebrate the anniversary of her transition from male to female. According to Scardina, "the woman on the phone told me they do not make cakes celebrating gender changes."
Asked to justify his decision, Phillips told Colorado Public Radio: "That's a cake I can't create for anybody. I know the Bible says that God created male and female and that we don't get to choose that, and we don't get to change that. And I don't feel like the government has a right to compel me to participate in creating a cake that promotes that message."
Another Legal Battle Ahead
Scardina proceeded to file a complaint with Colorado's Division of Civil Rights, which determined there was "sufficient evidence" of discrimination. But Phillips is once again fighting back. Perhaps buoyed by his Supreme Court victory, he filed a lawsuit against Colorado regulators for religious discrimination, alleging they are continuing to unfairly single him out "for punishment" and exhibiting "hostility toward his religious beliefs."
Phillips is demanding the court provide a permanent injunction preventing the state from enforcing Colorado anti-discrimination laws against him - not to mention $100,000 in punitive damages for his troubles.
This story becomes only the latest in a series of cases involving transgender rights. From an Indiana teacher who refused to use students' preferred pronouns, to a dispute over gender policy in a Planet Fitness locker room, debate rages on over these issues. And despite making marked inroads in recent years, the movement for transgender rights is still facing stark opposition from certain parts of society, particularly those of Christian faith - like Jack Phillips - who are skeptical about gender transitions and refuse to acknowledge them as something worth celebrating.
Is Discrimination Legal?
Although Phillips currently enjoys the legal backing of the highest court in the land, the narrow 7-to-2 decision did not fully resolve the question of whether business owners can use religious freedom or other First Amendment arguments to legally refuse goods and services to same-sex couples or other marginalized groups. Given the contentious nature of this debate, experts predict the issue will inevitably return to the Supreme Court before long. Until then, plenty of grey area remains in the law.
What do you think? Should the religious beliefs of Jack Phillips - and others like him - be protected, or is the government completely justified in going after discriminatory behavior?
The issue at hand is that of whether or not the same product he or she is selling is offered for other people. If they do wedding cakes for heterosexual couples, it is law that they must make them for homosexual and transgender couples as well.
If this basic and very simple law is disregarded, we might as well go back to the lunch counter protests of the 1950s, or the separate water fountains and toilets for one group and others for other people.
No. The law does not stipulate that we have to perform the same services for everyone. Everyone does not need or require the SAME services, and if the law STATED that we had to perform the same for everyone, it would be hideously unfair and useless. Did you not read the SCOTUS ruling on the earlier case? It still applies here. Do you suppose this transgender person called THIS particular baker as a coincidence? You cannot make people accept you. That is impossible. A cake is not a necessity of life. It is a luxury, and a form of art, and as such, a person cannot be required to furnish it if they do not desire to do so.
No. This is the "Public Accomodations Law". A business offering a service must offer those services to everyone who comes to them wanting that service, who is willing and able to pay for them. There is effectively no difference between a straight cake an a gay cake and a transgendered cake.
Signs saying "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" are not legal. You can refuse service to people who disrupt the business,do not intend to pay for products or services offered by that business, do not meet the dress code for that business (e.g.,businesses that require forma attire") are permitted to do so.
The business is part of the community, uses public services offered in that community, including, but not limited to roads, parking, utilities, police, fire, and ambulance services.
Some of you people are trying to push this man and others into accepting you and your behavior against his beliefs, The Supreme Court of the United States saw it and ruled in his favor. The "Public Accommodations Law" was directly addressed by the Court and it ruled against the City. Now another form of "Homosexual" is trying to pull the same thing. It will not work.
This is not an issue of "Public Accommodations", it never has been. This is an issue of the LGBTQ Community trying to forces people to go against their moral belief, and basically tell them that their God is worthless and should not be followed. Which is actually strange to hear in this forum of Ordained Clergy.
Then again, I think I just made the correct point. You must believe that your god is better than his God and that yours must be obeyed. And that his God should be put away because it teaches that homosexuality in any form is wrong. And I think this is the real meat of the issue for most of the people that can't get it or don't want to get it.
There are a lot of folks here who are "ordained" specificly for the purpose of trolling, and to be able to say "I am ordained and I belong to the church of that flying spagetti monster dude".
Hi, my name is Reverend Glenn. When "power to the people" was explaining that: 'There are a lot of folks here who are “ordained” specificly for the purpose of trolling,' and referred to a word I am not familiar with: "specifly." This left me confused as to what the true meaning of his verbiage really is? At first, I thought it was just a typo, but after I re-read it 117 times, I concluded this word must have a far deeper meaning...
I wonder what species of "fly" a "speci" really is?
Sorry rev glenn....re-read it "specificly " not "specifly".
Yes, I misspelled a word. I am not perfect. I guess you are? GREAT.
BUT, if that's the best you can do, you need your "reverendship" revoked.....weak, lol.
Well, not "lol", it's kinda sad actually.
I don't even know where you got "specifly" from. Maybe you should put that pipe away for awhile.
Excuse me, power to the people. Reverend Glenn begs you not to de-frock me quite yet. For while it is one thing to merely mispell a word, it is quite another to mispell it a second time after the mistake is pointed out to you. So, should I once again ask what "specificly" means? Or, perhaps you would prefer for me to let it go because I simply assume that you are member of that class of people known as the "illiterati?"
Dear power to the people... It is one thing to mispell a word once, but when I correct you and you do it twice in a row, I guess you would prefer that I did not comment upon your work because you are a high and mighty vestige in the "illiterati" movement?
Glenn- I did not misspell it twice. You should read things more closely before you criticize
YOU are the one who misspelled my misspelled word, lol
BTW genius, you misspelled the word "misspelled". AND you've misspelled other words elsewhere on this blog.
So, get a grip word nazi.
OOPS! My mistake, you misspelled the word "MISSPELL" not "misspelled" word nazi.
So sorry to confuse you. I here your head exploding from high on my vestige!!!!!!!!
Whatever dude,you need to adjust your meds, and take a nap.
power to the people!!!!
Rev. Glenn, the misspelling hypocrite troll. Very entertaining.
Thank you Sir!!
Priest, right on the mark. What is happening is the attempt at a "fundamental" change in our society to accept whatever someone wants to claim is their "right". Forcing a baker, in this case an artist baker, to bake a cake he does not want to bake due to his religious beliefs is impinging upon his rights as an individual. As much as the gay crowd would like it to be otherwise, it is still forced labor and against the Constitution to do so. No one can be forced to do somethng they don't want to do, that is socialism/communism. When the baker says "no", he is exercising his right as an individual. The only purpose of this nonsense by the State of Colorado is to harrass this baker and force him to do the bidding of the LBGTQXWRRYT crowd to set a precedent which the SCOTUS has already settled as being unconstitutional. Get over it. Homosexuality can never make a case for being natural as it serves no purpose other than to make those who practice it feel better about themselves and the choices they have made. Knowingly or unknowningly. I cry for the people of CO who have such a corrupt government that they will do anything for votes, and this charge by the state against this baker is nothing more than that, votes.
I’m at a loss to your “values” I don’t know what religion you follow, but mine says not to judge others lest I be judged by the Lord. How does writing two names on a cake violate anyone’s beliefs? How about the pharmacist who refused to fill a prescription due to religious beliefs? How about a Dr in the emergency room refusing service? A police officer seeing a gay business being robbed? How about we extrapolate this to “I don’t believe in your religion” Discrimination is wrong, period! Would he bake a cake for an atheist? Now that would really be opposite of his values, right? Or is it ok to discriminate because you can “see” what “violates” your beliefs? I’m sure he is also against atheists!
So... If a baker bakes a cake for a wedding, he is participating in the wedding. By this reasoning could it also be said that anyone, who legally sells a firearm, knife, baseball bat, hammer, etc. to an individual who subsequently uses it to commit murder, has participated in that murder?
There are alot of christians who have tried/keep trying to force their views and religious law onto those of us that serve other gods....so you stop pushing and maybe non christians/gays won't push so hard....also there are alot of things christians do that are against my morals
Power to the People....sorry but, I have to get in on this....
You need to learn the difference between "here" and "hear". Just sayin'.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but here is how I see it. The path to God is Jesus. I think Jesus would decorate a cake. Being a Christian is hard.
Thank you, Sunshine!
@ Randall, Aug-22-18,08:49 post... At a loss to “values” < -- --- Thats passing judgment on yourself.
I don’t know what religion you follow, but mine says not to judge others lest I be judged by the Lord. < --- Thats also passing judgment. All of us pass judgment 1000's of times a day on copious matters (micro & macro)? Understanding what is meant by "passing judgment" needs to be revisited & fathomed in full spectrum as I just passed judgment in responding. LOL.
You got that right!! So glad I am not the only one seeing this contradiction on a Christian site!
Well said. Thank you.
I'm with the Baker on this one he should not turn his back on his beliefs for anybody he has his beliefs and it is his right as an American citizen a God-fearing man to believe in his beliefs kudos to the baker and God bless him and God bless America
Beth, I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of law. There is no law that says you can force someone else to perform a service for you. That would be tantamount to slavery.
What nonsense. When a person opens a business they are expected to serve all who come through the doors in an orderly manner and with the funds to complete the purchase. Can you honestly say that it would be slavery to demand a gas station sell gas to a man wearing a kippah because they did not like his religion. When we open a business we serve all,
What kind of business do you have, Bill? Because it sounds as if you run a fantasy shop. Nobody who opens a business HAS to do business with everyone who enters the establishment, and EVERYONE who has a business from time to time turns business down. Nonsense, indeed.
John, are you a lawyer? It IS against federal law to discriminate when dealing with the public in your business. You cannot refuse a black person your goods or service because you believe, as some Christians do, that black persons are black because of the mark of Cain. You cannot refuse service to anyone unless there is another factor entered into the equation; like no shoes or shirt (hygiene). If I own a kosher deli, a patron cannot force me to sell pulled-pork sandwiches. But that deli owner cannot refuse to sell to a Muslim because of his beliefs. No where in the Bible does it say not to do business with someone who does not believe as you do. If you carried this belief of restricted trade due to religious beliefs to its extreme, then why would a Christian sell anything to a divorced person? Jesus specifically mentions divorce and hated it.
Dealing with the public opens a set of rules and regulations by which all must abide. It's a business, not a church. Churches can refuse to seat anyone if they wish, but you won't find too many people in the pews. A business cannot, legally, refuse service. The ruling of the "christian" baker in the most recent Supreme Court decision determined that there were extenuating circumstances that made this case very unique. It was not a blanket decree that religious beliefs trump the established law. Do a little more research on that decision and you will be enlightened.
Campuscoll, a private business can refuse service for any reason, or you don't have a democracy. You can't force anyone to work for you against their will. Note the restaurant that refused to serve the White House press secretary.
Public accommodations, in US law, are generally defined as facilities, both public and private, used by the public. Examples include retail stores, rental establishments, and service establishments as well as educational institutions, recreational facilities, and service centers.
Under US federal law, public accommodations must be accessible to the disabled and may not discriminate on the basis of "race, color, religion, or national origin." Private clubs were specifically exempted under federal law as well as religious organizations. Title II's definition of public accommodation is limited to "any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests" and so is inapplicable to churches. Section 12187 of the ADA also exempts religious organizations from public accommodation laws, but religious organizations are encouraged to comply.
@ Capt Bill... Gas is not a "custom" order. Every one gets the same mix, this customer made it a point to CUSTOMIZE his order by bringing up PERSONAL sexual preferences. Who cares if one is gay or straight.. UNTIL it is brought into the order. A type of order his baking company NOT offer.
Serving all? Id kick out ppl that were unacceptable from my shop too. PS I want to walk into a gas station & order a tank of gay gas. Why bring personal intimate details into the custom order. Unless it is "custom" or a setup.
@ Chap Bill... Serve all? No. The law DOES permit various forms of discrimination to happen by many business. IE: Under 21, no smokes or booze. No shoes, no shirt, no svs. Who is to draw the line on "expectations" which are a set up for disappointment. Be 14 yo & go by 50 cans of spray paint from the local hardware store. They can deny the sale if they think they will be tagged that evening. Sell bullets to a 12 YO? To make the claim "expected to perform to all who enter" is embellishing a point to make a point.
@ Campuscoll... A black or white, gay or straight customer. It MUST be known in this situation has less to do w/ the customer. The customer ordered a custom product. A product the baker NOT offer to any one. Go to Safeway, Costco or ??? Ask them to make a cake depicting a sexual position (Greek) or other unacceptable design. They will also decline. Its MORE about the product ordered that is the barrier here. The bakers policies are as they are. (no custom products depicting or supporting unacceptables).
Judge, a business cannot discriminate against anyone because of race, age, gender, religion, etc., and the list goes on and on. You say they can refuse service or goods to anyone they choose. That is patently false and will land that business in court and, possibly, fined with jail time. It is against federal law and most states' laws. Where do you get your information? Bazooka gum?
Oh, Judge, I forgot to add. Ms. Sanders could have pressed charges against the restaurant for refusing service based on a political belief. But she chose not to. It still does not make it right nor legal. The problem with politics today is that there is no gray anymore, nor is there compromise and respect.
I respect your right to disagree with me, but I expect the same from you. Our disagreement stems from ignorance of the law. Do some research and cite for me chapter and verse where I am absolutely wrong. There are some states who allow discrimination based on gender preference concerning housing and other situations. Those are mainly Southern states with a bias toward change and an unhealthy and destructive penchant to mix religious beliefs with government actions. Wait till a non-Christian is elected and see where that leads.
John Owens, if one does business with the public, then, if engaged, they must perform the service. They cannot, under federal law, pick and choose who gets their goods or services without suffering the consequences. One cannot discriminate against anyone because of race, religion, gender, age, and, in most states, sexual preference.
A woman cannot be denied goods or services because she is pregnant and unmarried. That situation is a sin. Picking and choosing which sin can be called up when denying services and goods is pretty bad and illegal. Your business would not last long. Divorce is a sin and Jesus hated it. Try not selling to a re-married person based on that sin and see where your business goes. You will be sued and lose everything.
Not knowing the law is ignorance. Not wanting to find out what is legal and not shows a willingness to exemplify stupidity. Investigate and learn. We'll all be better off.
I'm sorry to inform you that my knowledge of the law is more thorough and accurate than yours.
I called it correctly when this came up for the gay marriage, but many on this blog said I was ignorant and uninformed and any other stupid thing they could think to say. After the SCOTUS decision not one of them apologized or said they were wrong or I was correct.
I am calling it the same way now for the sex-change celebration, and you will see that I am correct again, for the same reasons. It is not because I am so smart. You can be highly intelligent and still have no sense at all. It is because I have been watching the news for 60 years, and I don't let my emotions or the herd mentality that governs most people dictate right and wrong.
@ Stephanie W... Let see if your spin works... I want to rent a room in YOUR home & I'm a gay pot smoker. Oh, BTW. Best keep your young ones from view.
well CHAPLIN BILL What about the BAKERS RIGHT to his FREEDOM OF RELIGION Witch include not to align himself with those who He Believes are SINNERS should we take his Rights AWAY because he opened a Business? Force him to go against his GOD?
J, assuming I were operating my home as an inn, then pay your rent and you'll be entitled to peaceful quiet for the duration of your stay, that's the law. Your sexuality is not my business. Harm my child and I WILL hurt you real bad. As for your smoking habit ... don't bogart that joint my friend.
John, your supposed knowledge of Colorado law is severely lacking. Colorado has a law that no business can deny services or goods to anyone based on their sexual preference or gender identity, along with their race, age, ethnicity, religion and a bunch of other categories. Mr. Phillips violated the law and will suffer the consequences. It is not a law in Louisiana, but then, who really wants to live in that backward state.
@ Campuscoll ... Co law? Denial of svs? One can not break the law to enforce the law. Gay or straight. The baker offers NO such product, No art work depicting or supporting illicit, vulgar, gross, lude, or any unacceptable intent or the like. His art work is "G" rated & producing an affiliation w/ such energy is against the bakers "creativity" (the minds eye). This is a "G" rated baker and the baker will be the one to draw the line. PS: as I stated prior, if the baker did engage in baking any cake for an activity that is (or could be) classed as lude or unacceptable per company policy (and that trans knew the bakers policy) The baker maybe on every website & social media pg w/ his work, his likeness and who knows what will be attached to said good, services or function. Lude or unacceptable acts will be a stigma for years to come. This action will be on the net for ever... Every time I hear that churches name I think of this... https://jezebel.com/ohhh-god-teen-arrested-for-forcing-jesus-to-give-him-1633189538 . This baker is heading off the (lesser of the two) damage at the pass.
Mr. Owens: Thank you for such a simple and clear statement. GOD'S Law always supersedes man's law, and here in the U.S. the Constitution was put into place to LEASH THE GOV'T, not the people. It was set up to enumerate our GOD GIVEN rights, not define them or corral them nor deny them to We-The-People. As a Christian there are certain things I will not comply with b/c they go against God's Law. And my nation's law staunchly protects and defends my right to practice my faith. There's always another bakery. Go there.
Dear power to the people,
The correct spelling of the initial word in question is "specifically"--so I guess that makes you the Great Genius of the Illiterati? Or should we say: "Three strikes and your out?"
Dear Glenn......I DID spell it wrong the first time, then admitted it. You took my misspelling and misspelled it. I pointed that out to you....that was not misspelling the word a second or third time. THEN you continued to berate me for misspelling. THEN you misspelled words elsewhere on this blog. THEN you misspelled the word misspell by spelling it "mispell", haha. THEN you use the word "your" where you should have used "you're".
That's more than three strikes, that's you flailing wildly at the ball that you can't even knock of the T.
So, stop trolling. You are making an ass of yourself.
Your trolling ability is very weak glenn.
You guys should see “Bambi” again. What did Thumper’s mother tell him?
Power to the people Pnwed you, Glen... Thats Game, Set and Match to PTTP... (Gotta give credit where credit is due....)
cx ez clap lol
How come these activists dont go after muslim bakers? How about a halal shop that doesn't want to provide kosher foods?
Because they know how a muslim might react to a gay couple or trans person, and they are AFRAID. They only pick on Christians because they think they are safe doing so.
Evangelicals love to distract and deflect. "Go after the Muslims; they're much worse than we are. They throw gays off tall buildings, but we'll at least (grudgingly) let you live!"
I'm not aware of any Muslim bakers operating public shop who are refusing to make wedding cakes for anyone. When it happens, ask me then.
That bit about the halal shop is an unequal comparison. If the shop isn't already offering kosher foods to their customers, they're under no obligation to start.
But if they were already selling kosher products, they'd be breaking the equal accommodations laws by turning away customers on an arbitrary basis.
That is very true they are going after Christians because they are getting away with it. The Baker wouldn't make the gays a cake and conveniently a transgender goes after him next. They are trying to purposely go after Christian stores to cause trouble gain exposure and put people out of business. There are gays suing for just about anything right now. They are a bunch of babies who need some attention. Crazies who don't even know what bathroom to use.
Rick Smith, who do you think is the DEFLECTOR here? Look at what you wrote.
i don't know why these LGBTQXYZers, these 'half & halfers'. these 'poofters' and other 'crazies' get so much unwarranted attention. They are 'mis-fits', abnormal, and downright disgusting! Let 'em breed one another into non-existence, I say. The world would be a lot safer and saner!
Celebrating having oneself mutilated to try imitate a sex change does not fall under Public Accomodations Law.
That's what the baker thinks... how is his attitude working out for him? His attitude has cost him more than I will make in most of a decade.... fines, lawyers fees, time lost from work... Now he's gonna have to go through the ringer again! good!
@ Jason B... Thats what the Baker thinks? His attitude? Attitude on BOTH sides. Fines? Where were the "fines" assessed & for what? If so, how were fines assessed? I guess I missed it? Monetarily? Time? Energy? Smells a bit of embellished redundancy to make a point. What may the differences be between a physical crusifiction 2k years ago & a legal crusifiction in 2018 in an attempt to stand up for ones personal beliefs? The baker has no interest in being a party to supplying custom goods & services related to or supporting activities or actions not to his standards.
And YOU are 100% WRONG!
I think the term "Hate" has been used about more than enough, don't all of you think??? What is this, the U.S. of A. is a so-called free country, but the moment someone does not agree we tend to act worse than an obstinate mule, pushing back, delaying everything! Now, if this was the only baker in Salt Lake, than........... But surely he is not, so as the Dutch would say: "Just act norma!", and find an accommodating baker! I really wonder if the hate is not with people who despite knowing the firm belief of this baker would still decide to go there??? What next, are we forcing a Muslim Halal butcher to process bacon??? Surely not, I hope!
Just because this country is free doesn't mean everyone has to agree with everyone else.
What if you can't fulfil the requirements? Such as provide the service when it is required due to workload
BETH your not making sense. What your saying" We Reserve the Right to refuse Service" Are illegal??
What about the one hanging in your Corner BAR?? Should we sue because we Didn't get served?
What about a Business mans Constitutional Rights to his Freedom of Religion not to associate with those he believes to be Sinners against GOD ?
The BAKERS RIGHTS have to Be PROTECTED Let the Transsexual go to another BAKER
It is obvious that this is a Salem witch hunt. No telling how many bake shops are available in the area. It is obvious that these groups are intentionally picking on this one guy. Its not about the cake with them, if it was, they would simply go somewhere else. If I went to Lowes wanting the Baer brand of paint knowing they don't carry it. But I demanded that they sell it to me, I will take them to court because they refuse. Or I could just go to Home Depot, they carry that brand. Don't you see that it is not about the cake. They want to force him to disregard his personal beliefs in the Bible. Who out there wants to be forced to throw out their beliefs. Anybody, Be honest. If you don't want to be forced to throw out your beliefs, why should this cake maker be forced.
Lester Meredith, of course, it is about that particular baker's refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple and then a transgender person, the same as it was about those white racist restaurant owners and motel and hotel owners who refused to serve black people when those black people kept targeting their businesses because of their bigotry against them to force them to serve everyone equally and stop discriminating, as the law demands!! Other bakeries that don't have a problem baking cakes for gay or transgender people aren't the problem and so there is no need to keep targeting them, but this baker is the problem and so he should continue to be targeted by many more gay and transgender people until he either complies with the law and serves everyone equally or is boycotted and forced out of business!!!! If you won't serve ALL!!! of the public equally, you have no business even being in business in the first place!! It was also the white racists' religious belief that serving black people was a "sin" and against their religion, but they now have to serve black people, anyway, no matter how they feel about it still, or get sued back into the stone age and driven out of business (Hallelujah!!!) because you don't have any right to religious or any other beliefs that discriminate against other people and that includes gay people and those beliefs SHOULD!!!! just be thrown out!!!!
Lester Meredith, this isn't a theocracy, such as Iran, and so religious laws against homosexuality have NO!!!! relevance in this society to our civil laws and they were just put into the Bible by homophobes, anyway, to make God "agree with" them and force their views on other people. There is separation of church and state in this country and that means that the church doesn't get to dictate our laws to us!!!! Gay people are part of the civil population and so deserve and should have full civil rights, the same as you and everyone else, and that includes the right to equal service in restaurants, bakeries, and everywhere else!!
Our walk on this earth is NOT about getting the bakers of the world to submit to an others egotistical demands. GET UP, PERFORM, DANCE you bicth at the whim of one who "wants" (gimme-gimme / take-take) AND forces others to do it on the demanders terms. This is NOT about getting others to... do, be, act, bake, cook, say, think as the ego of another wants. Walk the path and be humble. This was a targeted hit on the baker & is forcing their believes on others... How about some one w/ a ski mask on asking to buy a gun. Thats his religious rights to wear head textiles. The seller of the gun might feel he is a "PARTY TO" an action that is unacceptable to them AND may want NO part of it.
@ John D... Refusing to serve a person of color is discrimination. We can see that. IE: Refusing to serve a person of color (white is a color) that is using their product, goods or services in a context that is against ones believes is different situation. This line could be squiggled around so many different trees in the forest that we all get lost to the aspect of which tree is on which side of the line as personal phaneron & ego takes over to justify who may be right / wrong.
Straight cake? Gay cake? Transexual cake? I never knew cakes could be gender specific, how do you tell?
Thank you John Owens. That was the perfect response. It is NOT a law that the same service has to be performed for everyone. A business owner has the right to refuse service to anyone. Please show me the law that says they HAVE to provide the same service to everyone. I have yet to see it.
Krystal, this is what the law says about refusing goods or services: As long as it is not for a "protected" reason (race, color, religion, or national origin) any business can refuse to provide service to anyone without reason. This law is federal and trumps all other law, even attempts at the state or local level.
You cannot refuse to sell to someone because they wear a turban for religious reasons. You cannot refuse to sell to a Buddhist. You cannot refuse to sell to a person based on where they were born. Can you refuse to sell to a gay Jew? Probably not. You cannot refuse on the grounds of an assumption. Refusing to sell to someone who cannot speak English is against the law. It is a very slippery slope to refuse service to anyone as they can claim you did it for a protected reason.
The rule of thumb for those who do business with the public, keep your religious beliefs to yourself. There is nothing in the Bible which prohibits doing business with non-believers. Christians need to remember that Jesus mostly dealt with non-believers and serious sinners. He dealt with them with respect and love, not hate and violence.
And non-Christians need to remember not to try to tell Christians how to be Christians.
My pleasure. Just trying to bring a touch of sanity and rationality to the herd here.
I believe you are correct! I believe every business owner has a right to refuse any customer for any reason what so ever! A similar example would be a customer asked for cake with Baphomet on it or Satan or Lucifer. Some said this is going backwards but the reality is that are Bible and our Lord Jesus is back there so we must not morph the Bible or Jesus into something that fits current style or worse yet, vanity!
This baker has been trolled relentlessly. He was asked to make a satanic cake he also denied that
If the baker wasn't already making Baphomet cakes for his other customers, he doesn't have to do it for anyone. If he was, his public shop must serve anyone with the money to pay for his goods.
I think this is absolutely ridiculous. It's just a cake!!
Yes, but the "cake" is just the tangible example for the underlying issue.
John, if the shoe were on the other foot and a gay baker refused to bake a cake for a straight couple or someone who dressed in clothes that are usually worn by members of their sex because of his prejudice against straight people and non-transvestites or non-transgender people---and that were the only place in that city or nearby to get that cake, straight and conservative people, such as yourself, would also be screaming your heads off about discrimination and his refusal to just bake the damn cake and leave his bigotry out of it and do his job equally for everyone!!! This is certain because straight and conservative people routinely complain when they don't get their way or get what they want: gay people even being allowed into the military or on police forces around the country, gay teachers' not being fired from their jobs because "they are corrupting our children and turning them gay, too", same sex marriages in the first place----forget about the cakes for them!, unisex public bathrooms, gun control laws that would prohibit their "right" to use an automatic rifle to go out deer hunting or for "home defense" with enough ammo to take on a battalion and background checks on people buying guns, the Equal Rights Amendment, and even black people's being integrated into the military or allowed to drink from whites only water fountains and eat in whites only sections of restaurants and receive the other services that white people do, at one time. You and your ilk have complained about these and many other issues at one time or another and are still complaining about them today and all of that is okay, right? But it is just "all wrong" for gay people or transgender people to complain when they don't get their way or their cake or get what they want and equality, too? By what double standard is that the case? A cake isn't a necessity of life for straight people, either, but that wouldn't stop them from complaining if they didn't get one because of a gay person's prejudice and hatred against them. You say that this isn't a racial issue, but it most certainly has been (and still is, in some places by some people) who, as noted above, refused to let black people drink from whites only water fountains or eat in whites only sections of restaurants or receive other services that white people received, and still today deny them those services, whenever they can. What if this baker now goes on to denying a cake to anyone who even looks "gay" to him, whether they actually are or not, or to people with long hair because he thinks that that is "unmanly" (as some conservative people think) or to Jews because "they should just become Christians, since Christ overcame the Old Testament and Judaism is now 'immoral'" (as some conservative "Christians" also think) or to anyone else for any reason whatsoever, be it not even liking how the person (you or anyone else) looks? How far should we go down this slippery slope? Should we go down it until everyone is only doing things for their own little group and we are divided into a million different camps, as I mentioned to you before? "If you only love those who love you, what are you doing more than anyone else is doing? Even the tax collectors love those who love them" as Jesus said. How far would you and other people be willing to excuse his prejudices and selective catering to the public, based on his likes or dislikes or feelings about "morality" or someone's "moral standing with God", especially if he practiced that on you personally?! If you wouldn't, as I assume, agree with his discrimination against you for whatever reason, then it is just following the Golden Rule of doing unto others as you would have others do unto you for you and other people here not to approve of his doing so to gay or transgender or any other people, either. That is a consistent standard, instead of the inconsistent and double standard that you and other people here propose. Of course, that transgender person picked that baker's business deliberately because of his refusal to bake a cake for a gay couple, the same as black people and other minorities have singled out businesses that denied services to their people---to keep pressing them on their bigotry and refusal to give equal service to all----and as you and other straight conservative people would also keep pressing a business that refused equal service to you, until they gave you and them equal service. What is wrong with that, since that is the only way that businesses are ever made to come out of their selective catering to the public and serve all equally, as they should, and leave their bigotry and "moral views" out of it. People shouldn't have to go to another place for their cake or whatever when that business is perfectly able to perform that service and would do so, except for their bigotry, anymore than you should have to go to another McDonald's or whatever restaurant because the one that you're at won't serve you, due to prejudice and dislike of you personally.
John Owens, generally, people don't think that anything is wrong, until it is done to them, and then it's "How could you possibly do such a thing to me?!! That is just terrible!!!! What gives you the right to do that?!!", but when that same thing is done to somebody else whom they don't care about, then it's "Well, it's not really that big of a deal, is it? I mean, it's not like it is a Constitutional matter or right, now is it? Let's just forget about it and move on!". This is because they don't love their neighbors as themselves and this is what is happening with your and some other persons here approving of this baker's not baking a cake for this transgender person and before them the gay couple wanting to get married, even though you wouldn't want anyone refusing service to you and would scream your heads off about it. Let's, at least, be honest about that!
John D. Partin, Since you want to HONEST, let's be honest about what is really going on here. How about that? You, like every other leftist, want to talk about loving neighbors as yourself, as though you REALLY love Jesus. Well, Point your finger at the trans person in this story. He/she KNEW what he/she was doing when he/she went to THIS particular baker on purpose, so OBVIOUSLY, the baker is actually doing EXACTLY what he/she hoped he would do, and you have nothing about which to actually be wringing your hands and crying about my sensible, rational statements here.
Nope your wrong. Christians would not go to a gay baker period. We don't like bum butter. The end times are here.
Actual Christians would go to a gay baker to have him bake them cakes, even if homophobic and phony so-called "Christians" who are bigoted toward gay people, such as yourself, wouldn't go to one. Actual Christians don't care if somebody is gay and accept all people equally with love! Do you also make ignorant comments about straight people, too, or is all of your ignorance just directed against gay people? If the end times are here, you're helping to bring them on! Why am I even wasting my time on someone like you, except to benefit some other people here by ridiculing you?
John, the proper term is not he/she but shim. I've heard some police officers calling them that.
John Owens, of course, the trans gender person in this story deliberately picked this baker because he refused to serve the gay couple wanting a wedding cake, the same as black people have DELIBERATELY! singled out white racist owners of restaurants and motels who refused to serve black people to keep going to until they decided to serve everyone equally, as they should, and it was (and is) right for black people to have done so and still be doing so wherever there is white racism and it is just as right for gay people and transgender people to keep singling out homophobic ("gay fearing and hating" if you like that better) bakers or others who refuse to serve them equally. Gay people are part of the civil community and so gay rights are civil rights, too, the same as for black people, and should and must be given equally to them, the same as for everyone else! You seem to think that nobody can REALLY love Jesus except you and other conservative, homophobic, narrow and small minded, and probably only WASP people, and that is just obviously not the case!! Conservatism just isn't synonymous with Christianity or Jesus' thinking at all or Jesus wouldn't have had all of those arguments and problems that He had with the Conservatives and homophobes of His time: the Pharisees, and they wouldn't have taken Him to Pontius Pilate to be executed! You and your ilk would also be protesting against anyone who discriminated against you and probably taking them to court, too, and that is all that this transgender person and the gay couple did. What would be alright for you is also alright for them. What is good for the goose is good for the gander! Do unto others as you would have others do unto you and don't approve of anyone's (such as this baker's) not doing so.
John, you can't see your own hypocrisy here, but you want to point out that of others.
John D. Partin, two thumbs up! Well said, I could not agree more!
John D. Partin, your post has eloquently stated my own feelings. Those who truly follow Jesus have only two Commandments: Love God and Love Others. Simple. All others are hypocrites, whatever the denomination. What Would Jesus Do? If a baker, he would lovingly bake a cake for each customer, without judging ("judge not...") Through His example, He would increase Love and Compassion. Many of us are not ChristoFascists, and it enrages us that so-called "Chrisssstians" would exhibit hatred, bigotry, racism, sexism. We are all "sinners," all unique, and what someone despises in each of us is not necessarily visible, or even knowable to others. He saw NOone as "Untouchable." Let Them Eat Cake.
I’m so sorry you feel like that. I as a Christian was taught not to judge, lest I be judged. Judgement is for the Lord not man. He opened a store to bake cakes, if he wanted to “sell” his personal views, he should have opened a church. God made every person and animal that walks this earth. For anyone to use the excuse, like the Pastor to that family the Duggars, who says “God doesn’t make mistakes” should listen to themselves, no he doesn’t make mistakes. That includes all the birth defects children are born with and sexual orientation. Homosexuality is how they were made by our Lord. Back to the baker. We’re now seeing discrimination everywhere, bakers, pharmacist and our government now. I thought we were past that, but no. How does writing a name on a cake violate anyone’s religious values? We now have pharmacists refusing to fill prescriptions,and companies being ok with that. How about an emergency room Dr refusing to save someone? A police officer who refuses to stop an attack on someone because they’re gay? A public school that refuses to take a child of a gay couple? How far are you ready to take this?
This a private business, not public, and you can't force anyone to work for you against their will
@ Judge... Unless one has a contract w/ the local municipality (government) to do a job AND has the market cornered. IE: Trash companies or recycling companies (curb side pick up) or USPS. There is NO law I know of that states they MUST do business w/ every one. The declination must be for a good reason & not because they are black or white / gay or straight. In the bakers case, he makes NO art, sell no art or offers no product that is off color as he sees it, per his company policy. The still waters that run deep is irreverent to the product/s offered. I feel one reason an interlocutory summary judgment was not entered in the 1st case & the judge permitted this to go the distance was the baker IS making his personal views known. I hope a interlocutory application is filed & won. Altho different plaintiff. I'd see this as harassment or a creative spin of double jeopardy.
" We’re now seeing discrimination everywhere" ..., Sadly, none of this is new. Discrimination has been everywhere for millennia. Since reaching the half-century mark, I can say things have improved and there doesn't appear to be as much discrimination as when I was young. People are changing, people are evolving, and it does seem to be at a sluggish and plodding pace from our physical time perspective.
I think they're all a bunch of self-homophobic closet queens.
Why do you think it is "judging" for the baker to not want to bake the cake, but NOT judging for the trans person to sue the baker? That doesn't even make any sense. Why should anyone have a right to sue someone WHO HAS DONE NOTHING TO HARM THEM?
Refusing critical services is one thing, a private company that refuses to be part of an unacceptable act is an other. I could have made 100's of thousands in plastics stock, in the pharmaceutical industry stocks. But, i elect to be no part of the chain of events that make $$$ of the poor choices of others. In this case, "only a drug can prevent or cure" laws. I also buy no stock in oil, gas, GMO'ed foods or commodities. Schadenfreude is a term where ppl make $$$, get enjoyment, make choices that hamper, hurt or squelch others for personal gain & enjoyment. Suing because a private company has rights too is a joke & hurts the baker .
Public Accommodation laws in Colorado prohibit the discrimination of same-sex couples and transgender individuals of goods or services available to the public in any business. Mr. Phillips has broken the law and will suffer the consequences. Being adamant about his ignorance and willful disobedience of the law will only cost Mr. Phillips lots of heartache and lots of money. Religious liberty is fine but not while doing business with the public. You can put up any sign you want about refusing service, but it will not cancel the law of the land, and in Colorado, it IS the law of the land. Look it up, learn something.
This is about bullying this baker and anyone who disagrees with a particular agenda into acquiescing, while ignoring the rights of those who disagree. There are many sides to everything, not just one. I find that there are many who are enthusiastic about imposing rules, as long as they suit them, and willing to twist them when they don't suit them. Go to another freakin' bakery for your cake. Let this man believe as he chooses as long as he is not invading your space.
Jack Harte, this baker should be "bullied", as you put it, for his refusal to serve part of the public, the same as black civil rights demonstrators and workers kept "bullying" white racist owners of restaurants and hotels and motels and registrars of voters to give everyone equal service and let them eat and live where they pleased and vote as everyone else, who is white, is allowed to do. Gay people are also part of the civil community and so gay rights are also civil rights. No more than white racists should be allowed to keep black people out of anywhere or keep them from voting or having other equal rights should homophobic bakers, such as this one, be allowed to keep gay people from receiving his services, the same as everyone else does. That is full equality and anything less than that is inequality! The baker can feel however he likes about gay people, as long as he keeps it to himself and doesn't impose his feelings on anyone else, such as by refusing to bake that person a cake, the same as a white racist can go on being a racist, if he keeps it to himself and doesn't impose that bigotry on black people by keeping them out of his business or refusing to serve them. Nobody is telling the baker how to think or feel about anything, but just what he shouldn't do to other people because of his thoughts or feelings about them. You don't want other people who dislike or hate you imposing their feelings about you on you or denying you services because of their feelings about you and these gay people feel the same way and have the same right as you not to have bigotry imposed on them, either! Let him go on being ignorant to the end of his life, if that is what he wants, but just don't put his ignorance on other people! If he had refused service to some black people for a Kwanzaa or Martin Luther King's Day cake, he would have been sued back into the stone age already in a class action suit and his bakery turned into an empty lot! Just because it was done to gay people and they aren't suing him that far doesn't make it any more right. They should keep on "bullying" him until he serves everyone equally, as is right, and shouldn't have to go to another freakin' bakery, since as a public business, he is required to serve ALL of the public equally, not just the part of it that he feels like serving and should leave his feelings about people at home and not bring them to work and just do his job! If everyone took this baker's attitude and only did things for people that they agreed with or who were friends of theirs or "right" in their opinion, this world would become divided into a million different camps, each doing for their own, and there would be no helping or doing anything for anyone else or interdependence, as we should have in our society! "If you love those who love you, what have you done more than anyone else? Everyone loves those who love them" said Jesus. If he were discriminating against you personally, for any reason, you also wouldn't like it and would be protesting against it and taking him to court, perhaps. That is exactly how these gay people felt and feel about it. So, do unto others as you would have others do unto you and don't approve of anyone's not doing that.
JDP, So this Bakers RIGHTS mean NOTHING to you? His Freedom of religion an how he uses it to Run his life n business Mean NOTHING to you? You sound like a LIBERAL FACIST.
You will find you are mistaken in your interpretation of the law. I understand your interpretation but it is incorrect.
A request for a baker to bake a custom cake for any occasion is like sending out a request for bids on a contract. No one is legally bound to make a bid.
John Owens, the bigger question here is: what are people MORALLY! bound to do, even when the law doesn't require them to do the moral thing? When segregation was the de facto custom and unwritten and tacitly understood and accepted law (or even the law---PERIOD!) in the South, well, then, of course, restaurant and hotel and motel owners could get away with refusing to give rooms to black people or let them eat in the whites only sections of their restaurants or in those restaurants at all, and they had to sit in the backs of buses, and not drink from whites only water fountains or use whites only bathrooms, and they couldn't vote. When apartheid was the actual law in South Africa, black people in that country couldn't be together with white Afrikaaners and were subject to extreme penalties and imprisonment for violating their white masters' laws. None of this was ever what the white people MORALLY! should have been doing to black people. Even if you were correct in your view that a baker or anyone else doesn't legally have to provide any services for or the services requested by a gay couple or a transgender person, which you aren't (equal service to all or else you are practicing discrimination, which is blatantly illegal, as much for gay people as for black people), mere human legal standards aren't the highest consideration, which is the moral law of Love your neighbor as yourself, Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, and Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me! Why do you have to be reminded of this, if, as you say, a liberal such as myself "doesn't truly love Jesus Christ" and you, of course, "love Him so much more than I do"? Why do I have to be the one telling you this, instead of you telling it to me, if you "truly love Jesus Christ"? All kinds of things have been, strictly speaking, legal (including the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews, under their system of laws!), but they haven't all been the morally right thing to do. Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself are still the basis of everything that we should be doing and "upon this hangs all the law and the prophets" and should be the first consideration in our behavior toward gay or black or any other people, no matter what the law lets us get away with doing, as you, of course, "already know". "The baker isn't legally required to bake the gay couple or transgender person a cake" sounds awfully close to Shylock in The Merchant of Venice's saying "I don't see it in the bond" (to provide medical attention to Antonio so that he wouldn't bleed to death while Shylock got his pound of flesh) and "whites only" and "go sit in the back of the bus!".
Preacher Richard H, The baker's "rights" to not serve the gay or transgender part of the public mean no more to me than a white racist restaurant or store or motel owner's "rights" to not serve black people or Jews or Catholics or anybody else that he is bigoted against---and that is exactly NOTHING!!!! You are correct about that because all of the rights here aren't just on his side of the board and "zero rights", according to you and other people here, on the other side of the board with the gay and transgender people. Rights are a two way street, not just a one way street, all going toward the baker and not from him back toward other people, as you and many other people here "think". That isn't equality!!! He has no more "right" to refuse service to gay and transgender people than a white racist has to refuse service to black people and others. That is making his "freedom of religion" more important than every other consideration, which it simply IS NOT!!!!, in a democracy and free society where you live with all kinds of different other people!!! I know that you and many other people here think that the world should just revolve around you and your rights and that nobody else should have any rights at all, if they interfere with your rights (which you say that they "always do"), but that is just not reality or democratically free living or thinking!!!! You sound like a CONSERVATIVE FASCIST or just a CLOSET (or even out of the closet) NAZI!!!! My saying that there should be freedom and rights for gay and transgender people, too, isn't fascism, but just equality and fair treatment for them, too. You, supposedly, as a "minister", should believe that loving your neighbor as yourself and doing unto others as you would have others do unto you and treating people as you would treat Jesus Himself (Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me) and morality should be and are more important than the laws of man and the letter of the law (though we would never know it by this statement of yours here). So, if you agree that morality and loving your neighbor as yourself, etc. are more important than the laws of man, you should agree with my post below, too. If you don't, then we all will know that you don't think that loving our neighbors as ourselves is more important than the laws of man and that you are just another religious phony and bigot!!! Let's see which of those things is true about you.
JDP You throw around a lot of words but it boils down to your hatred of the bakers ABSOLUTE RIGHTS To FREEDOM of RELIGION Do you understand That it is IN the CONSTITUTION?
You compare the Bakers Refusal to Colored's Jews an any other Group. But the baker has a Right not to participate in Another's life of SIN .
The SCOTUS Already issued a decision on the GAY person infringing on the SAME BAKERS RIGHTS an the Baker WON 7-2.
The Transy is the same thing just the Fascist LEFT trying to FORCE their way of life on 95% of Normal Americans.
You cant Force Your lifestyle on others in America .That Forcing is the definition of The Lefts Fascist Tactics . Your Not Normal.
An this Love thy neighbor as thy self an Judge not lest ye be Judged Is the rallying Cry of the left when they attack Christians Jesus Condemns Homosexuality He also says Use Righteous JUDGEMENT when dealing with those who Go against GODS WORD an Have no part of them if they continue to SIN outright
John, when someone's argument is weak, they invariably go to racism. I wonder how Rosa Parks would take your statement. Every time people do this, they cheapen the sacrifices made by real freedom riders by comparing every thing to that. it is just wrong.
Who is Rosa Parks? is She a Transgender???
JDP So You admit to being a Fascist. You think the BAKER has no Rights?
difference between Discrimination you compare Blacks an Gays as the same thing
blacks ARE born that way
GAYS have a CHOICE not to SIN an MAKE the BAKER SIN. Supreme court will RULE once again for the baker no Matter HOW HARD you people Target that Christian Baker
THANK GOD for our RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS
MAYBE kids should study the constitution in history instead of rosa parks
JDP I bet we would HEAR Nothing from you if this Christian Baker Was a BLACK Christian Baker Would we?? I love how Mad you get attacking others Beliefs LOL An you never answered me Was Rosa a Transgender Do you Know?? LOL
In a court of law, the bigger question is legal. The baker wins.
well put, and I agree. surmised that way it does not require that one stand in moral judgement of one another, it just requires that one exercises his/her right to free will based their own belief on what is right or wrong for themselves as individuals.
Richard.h: Good stuff!
John Owens, gay rights are civil rights because gay people are part of the civil community and so, reasonably speaking (and not according to your unreasonable view, of course!) shouldn't the sacrifices made for gay rights (the gay bashings, misunderstandings, discrimination, firings, and even killings of gay people because they were gay) be compared to their counterparts in the black civil rights movement, by any fair-minded person? Gay people were also victims of the Holocaust, as were Jews and others, which, at least, no black people were victims of. That isn't a weak argument, but a realistic argument, and Rosa Parks would be just fine with it because she, unlike you, believed in equal rights for all people. By the way, "Pastor" Richard H., what rock have you been living under all of your life that you have never heard of Rosa Parks and "think" that she was a transgender?!!!!! Every grade school child has read about her in history class!!!
John Owens, you and other homophobes want to restrict the civil rights movement and civil rights to black people or yourselves because that "legitimizes" and lets you "get away with" denying equal rights to gay people in marriage equality or anything else, but your position here is simply absurd because all people who live in the civil community, which is EVERYONE!!!!!, have civil rights and shouldn't have those civil rights violated. That is just logical and reasonable, as opposed to your position, which is illogical and unreasonable.
You still don't have a RIGHT to a special cake. YOUR rights stop, at the exact place where mine begin. I don't have to bake you a special cake to celebrate your fake sex change.
"Pastor" Richard H., YOU, SIR, ARE AN IGNORAMUS!!!!!, as demonstrated by your not even knowing above who Rosa Parks was and "thinking" that she was a transgender person, when every school child has read about her in their history class and knows that she was a black woman who refused to give up her seat to a white person on a bus, which resulted in the Montgomery, Alabama Bus Boycott, led by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., and by the rest of your IGNORANT!!!! comments in this blog!!! What rock have you been living under all of your life, so that you didn't know about Rosa Parks and have the other stupid ideas that you have?!!! How could "LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF" and "Judge not, lest you be judged" be the "rallying Cry of the Left when they attack Christians" and the teachings and commandments of your alleged "Lord and Savior" for all Christians at the same time because, quite logically (even though I know that that is beyond your very limited powers of "understanding"), He couldn't be commanding us to do something and also forbidding us to do it. So, try to "explain" your "thinking" and make it easy on yourself and use very small words!!!
@ John's post dated 8-31-18 at 6:22 pm...Who is Rosa Parks? is She a Transgender??? < ---- We never took this entry as a legitimate query as posted.. I came across to me as more rhetorical in nature and to make a comparable. But now that you mention it as a serious question... I see several ways it could have been meant. As for the noun (ignoramus)? Judge w/ discretion & wisdom. Matt 7.3.5 = We will all be judged by the same measure that we use.
Does the White Christian Baker have these SAME CIVIL RIGHTS??
Being GAY is a CHOICE .
"Pastor" Richard H. I did answer you about Rosa Parks and told you that she was a black woman who refused to give up her seat to a white person in Montgomery, Alabama, which resulted in the Montgomery Bus Boycott, but, as usual, with you, it was just more casting pearls before swine and pouring water over a rock because NOTHING!!!! sinks into that head of yours, except more ignorance and bigotry!!!! No, I wouldn't accept a black baker's refusing to bake a cake for a gay couple or transgender person, either, but most black people want freedom for all people and are more accepting of others than that. I only get angry when attacking IGNORANT BIGOTS!!!!!, such as yourself!!!
JDP Everybody Knows Rosa didn't give up her seat. I new that when I asked the question at first, just wanted to see how you would react an teach me some thing, But you failed in that test of Your character. you call people who stick up for their Constitutional rights as ignorant Bigots or homophobes Just because they Stand with GODS Word ,the constitution and the Supreme Court.
Why YOU Continue to force your beliefs and life style choices on other people I'm trying to understand, Is it because Christians are not suppose to fight back an stick up For GOD and The Constitution? What on earth do Gays an Transvestites Want?
You seem to want to force people to Say OKAY I change my beliefs an accept what you do as NORMAL, and OKAY GOD Accepts you an your not sinning nor risking Eternal Hell fire.
Why go to THIS BAKER an say I'm celebrating my sex change operation and want a pink n blue cake? UNLESS there is a Political motive.
Why not Just go in or call an say I'd like a pink cake with blue frosting when can I have it? Do you EVEN Comprehend what I'm Saying to you ?
And as Far as MOST Black want everybody to be free ,That is a pretty ridiculous statement because everyone IS FREE. As a race Blacks stick together you see that in the news all the time during riots or street fight with 5 on 1 .An You say blacks are MORE accepting than who The Evil white man? have you ever walked around Alone in a black neighborhood in the city on a Dark night. You can PRETEND to be a Homie an act black but in most cases you need to get out of there
I don't know your race but i'll say this you don't like white Christian men who live with a certain moral code an Speak there mind whether you get offended or not.
We on this wend took the "Rosa parks" questions remains unanswered in full context. Was "Rosa P trans or gay?. <--- If I missed the answer the depth of the questions in full, do point it out...
Partin: richard h's 11 Sep comment was spot on! He has the guts to tell like it is . . . according to God's Word. You, Partin, can ignore/ridicule his comments to your peril.
"Pastor" Richard H., what I'm "admitting" to an IDIOT!!!! like you and what I'm actually saying are, quite obviously, two different things!!! Only a MORON!!!! of your caliber could get from my previous post to you that I'm saying that "the baker has no rights" when anyone with any intelligence, which leaves you out, knows that I was saying that his rights don't supercede (oh, I forgot about your limited mentality: "supercede" means go beyond, if that's easier for you to "understand") other people's rights. If I could send you pictures through this blog, such as stick figures, that would really make it easy for you to get, wouldn't it?!!! Gay people are born gay, too, no matter what retarded views you may have on the subject!!! Being gay also isn't a sin, again no matter what you "think" about it!!!! Our religious and God-given freedoms include the rights of gay people to love each other and be married, no matter what you "think" again!!! You are just a waste of my time and I'll stick to talking with the intelligent people here from now on, what few there are even of those!!!
P.R.H., gay people and transvestites and transgender people and Lesbians and bisexual people on Earth want EQUAL!!!!! rights, along with everyone else!!! What part of that don't you understand? We don't live in a theocracy, like Iran, and so religious statements in the Bible against homosexuality are irrelevant and can't be allowed to eliminate or interfere with gay people's and others' civil rights. If you want a country that only follows Biblical ideas about EVERYTHING!!!, then separate from the Union, the way that the South tried to do during the Civil War, and form your own separate country and do things entirely your way there Until then, though, and as long as you share this country with other people who don't agree with you, you DON'T!!!!!!! get to have everything your own way and impose your will on everybody else!!! Why should gay people or transgender people have to disguise a cake and pretend that it isn't what it actually is, instead of the bigoted baker's just doing his Goddamn job, minding his own business, and keeping his two cents worth of opinion to himself, the same as he wants other people to do toward him and not poke their noses into his business or deny him services because of their stupid opinions!!! You certainly sound racist to me, too, because you talk about black people's "only being for their own rights" and it "not being safe in a black neighborhood at night", but I have been in both Harlem in New York and in Detroit in Michigan at night many times and never had any problems. So, once again, you don't know what in the HELL!!!! you are talking about!!!!!! Anyone can be unsafe or safe anywhere because it depends on your attitude and what people sense in you. It doesn't hurt to have a convincer with you, either!!! There are assholes in every group, as you demonstrate for the white race, and good people everywhere, too, and not just only bad or only good anywhere.
JDP You keep resorting to a lot of words, Grandstanding, Name calling yelling about equal Rights The FACT IS THEY ALREADY HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS. They get jobs housing Adopting Babies They EVEN Get MARRIED No SIR What you want is to FORCE PEOPLE to accept your lifestyle AGAINST Their SPIRITUAL BELIEFS To change the way they think an worship , that is Fascism .The BAKER has Religious rights not to condone His belief of SIN
YOU PEOPLE HAVE ALL the rights WE ALL HAVE. You CANT FORCE PEOPLE to Give up their GOD or HIS TEACHINGS to Comfort your Condemned Souls.
ONLY EVIL Does this You Are a FALSE TEACHER an your MOTIVES are SUSPECT. May GOD Remove the Scales over your Eyes.
And GOD DIDNT GIVE YOU the RIGHT to MARRY Mans LAW DID
GODS LAW Says it is SIN an SIN is punished by DEATH ( Death Being Cast out of GODS GRACE) CONDEMED
Custom cakes are not the "same" order. If any one orders a cake and had to specify race, gender or the like in the order process it becomes custom product or a set-up. ALL orders, across the board, that are not offered by any given vendor will be declined to all customers alike. In the 1st case it indicated they not offer a given custom product. If they do make a trans cake for this couple, it will go against their policy of "not offering said good". This 2nd case impresses / confirms that the bake co is treating all customers, (gay, straight, trans etc) equally. That in its self makes this case a wasteful suit. Even a straight couple that ordered a product they not offer would also be declined. The bake Co has policies, & they are holding to them. If they did make the cake for this trans customer they could go back & sue for favoritism. Smells like a targeted effort to me. I'd be surprised if the bake co looses. is Johnny Cochran's firm the trans council?
He also declined a shelf cake to both this case and the last
All his work is "custom". There is not one mass produced cake on his shelf.
P.R.H., Nobody cares if YOU or your ilk ever accept homosexuality as normal and natural, as long as you keep your stupid opinions to yourselves!!! You, the same as Nazis, Klansmen, Black Muslims, and all other hateful people and haters have the right to hate any other people that you want to hate, to your heart's content, AS LONG AS YOU WOULD JUST KEEP YOUR BIG DAMN MOUTHS SHUT ABOUT IT!!!!! Nobody else wants to hear your garbage other than other stupid people like yourselves!!!!! Nobody wants to force you to give up your God, but you also don't have the right to cram your God down other people's throats and force them to live the way that you think is "right" and force your views on them!!!! You don't want anyone doing that to you and so don't do that to them!!!! That is living in a democratic society and free living for you and everyone else and sharing of rights in this country, instead of, as you want, only this baker and you and your ilk have any rights at all, and nobody else gets any rights whatsoever!!!!! That wouldn't be a Democracy, which is what we have!!!!! You DON'T!!!!!!! speak for God and can't tell us what God is saying or has said against gay people or anything else because the Bible was written by human beings, who just put their words and bigotry into God's mouth!!! Only when the clouds part and a gigantic Head pokes down through them and a big BOOMING!!!! voice tells me and everyone that HE has forbidden homosexuality and considers it a sin will I and all other intelligent people believe that it is actually a sin!!! Until then, we won't and don't because I wouldn't believe you about even the time of day or directions across town, much less telling me what "God has said or is saying" because you LIE!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL OF THE TIME!!!!!! and make God say whatever in the HELL!!!! you want Him to say and your kind have always done that!!!!! May the actual God of LOVE remove the scales from your eyes, the same as they blinded the Pharisees, and get you to see the truth, instead of your bigotry and hatred all of the time!!!!! You are the FALSE TEACHER here, not me!!!!
JDP HalalulYa I see I have Stirred the HOLY SPIRIT in you causing great Conflict inside you.
Ill try to address your Manic comments I HAVE but you seem to want to DENY me an others you disagree with FREEDOM of SPEECH Also you insist that Christian Baker Relinquish his Right to FREEDOM of RELIGION., That Trany is Trying to Force him to Go against his GOD an participate in its Lifestyle Choices (SIN to the BAKER). He isn't FORCING the TRANY to Convert just that it needs to go to ANOTHER Baker or Bake it yourself. You SAY I don't SPEAK FOR GOD. and The BIBLE was written by Homophobes an Bigots. If you read an had a Understanding of The bibles written Word you would See Doing the Gay thing is condemned in the OLD & NEW TEST..
So I go by The Holy Bible inspired By GOD as FACT because GOD wouldn't Lie it is against a Devine Beings Nature. I Also go by The HOLY SPIRIT who is with me .Who guides me to try an bring SINNERS to JESUS as JESUS COMMANDS. Christians to do. But THAT is NOT FORCING you to DO ANYTHING you either Accept his word or you REJECT it. But tantrums an Name calling doesn't Change SIN.
You say You wont BELIEVE unless YOU HERE it from GODS MOUTH. That's putting yourself up next to GOD as some Equal. that's even worse JESUS Said we have to HAVE FAITH. an that Those that walked with him will not Receive as Great a Blessing as those that Did not See the Miracle's But STILL BELIEVED Through FAITH in CHRIST
WHAT EXTRA RIGHTS are you looking FOR? You live FREE
I STILL say You are STILL JUST Trying to force others to accept gayness as some Wonderful thing. an That is wrong
Its not HATE or BIGOTRY that makes me point out SIN Its more of Caring n love for the Human soul I'd rather see it with JESUS than the Devil or Demons.
Still Ya'll Have FREE WILL My words aren't an Attempt to Force but to offer another Way
Do what you will but Don't force a Baker to make you a Cake. to Celebrate
Compare properly. Walk into Safeway, Albertsons, Freddys, OFC, Costco, Sams & order a cake w/ some suggestive implications. I bet they will decline. Being gay, straight, Christian, Jew, Buddha or any other denomination and while your at it, make sure to mention your intimate, personal life details of sexual preferences. Then order a cake. Why mix all these per intimate details in ones order? If I was straight & ordered a "GAY" cake I'd also be declined. This was a set-up in the making by the customer. This is NOT a product these stores offer. TO ANY ONE...
Good point, James
Custom order cake is NOT a service every one gets.
They could have just bought a cake mix and baked it themselves.
Bake their own cake? Come on, what type of comment is that? How can get the lawyers rich & attempt to self-write a paycheck baking their own cake? As the other cakes bake it smells like a targeted set-up to us.
His quote, "I know the Bible says that God created male and female and that we don’t get to choose that, and we don’t get to change that." is typical fundamentalist evangelical bait & switch. The Bible does indeed say God created male and female. DUH! It does NOT say "we don’t get to choose that, and we don’t get to change that." These deluded folks quote the Bible, and then completely leave the Bible and go off into exposition. They quote, THEN the interpret according to their pre-established theology. That is NOT a "God said it" moment. And most important, our country is run by the Constitution, not the Bible. So in the final analysis, it truly and seriously doesn't matter what the Bible says when it comes to matters of law and justice. Should this man be allowed to follow his convictions? Sure. The way to do that is to remove himself from public business. Not continue a business and be allowed to discriminate!
"The country is run by the Constitution, not the Bible"? Hmmmm. If biblical / spiritual books were read AND understood w/ out ones Ego / personal phaneron involved, the constitution & the teachings would go hand-N-hand w/ minimal to no conflict. The country is run by corporate greed.
Absolutely 100% correct!
I disagree with the baker's sentiments, but surely he has the right not to bake a cake. It would be easy to get around the problem, make the cake but just do a really crappy job
You shouldn’t never force somebody to go against there belief. This bloke is doing what’s morally right in his belief. Besides they can’t truly stop him from denying service to whoever he wants, the traditional church has always been apart from the law and only accepts it when it aligns with the church. I’m a sense, biblically whenever the government or church come at odds, the church is always right and you can morally break the law.
Before you read this, understand that I am neutral on this topic, personally. Spiritually, I truly believe that everyone should be able to worship as their heart and soul speaks to them to follow. Forcing anyone, Christian, pagan, Hebrew, gay, colored, agnostic, or any other faith, orientation, or other preferences, is simply wrong.
It is an interesting fact that we support religious freedom, but seem to be unwilling to let this baker embrace his. Not everyone is able to embrace all creeds or in this case preferences. This is not a crime. Bigoted maybe, but not a crime.
Maybe the Homosexual couple was in the wrong for trying to force the issue. Maybe the transgender individual should have thought about what they were doing when they went into this mans store requesting a special cake. Jack Phillips statement has been, “I serve everybody. It’s just that I don’t create cakes for every occasion” If you examine the case, he did offer the couple other "similar services" including a wedding cake. Not an outright refusal, BIG difference. He also does not make Halloween cakes. He has been very public about this. Should I ask for a cake with Nightmare Before Christmas characters on it and then take him to court we he refuses? No that would be wrong.
For those who are sitting in judgement, I draw your attention to Luke 11:46 But He said, “Woe to you lawyers as well! For you weigh men down with burdens hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers.”
Go with God and go in peace and understanding.
BTW - I live in Colorado and support the beliefs of both parties.
Acceptance, put into practice what Paul tells us all to do ,Rom. 15:7, “Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God.”
@ Steve.... Well put...
what happened to we have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason in our place of businesses.I grew up with those signs in every business
Anyone can post any kind of sign he wants to. That doesn't mean it's quoting a law.
The baker may have his reasons for not decorating a cake, but Jesus can't be one of them.
Jesus IS one... One of the many........ Other reasons are... The baker NOT offer custom products w/ suggestive, unacceptable, lude, crude, rude, off-color work, unacceptable as the baker defines it.
I am a gay male RN I do not have to provide treatment to Hetrosexual people! My Religious Right ! I am also a Minister. So do people really want to draw those lines in the sand
That's an interesting point Sir.. Where do we draw the lines? While decorating a cake is about as unimportant as it gets, the service you provide is about as important as it gets. Another wrinkle....you work for some institution while the cake baker has his own business. I work for a corporation and I provide a service. If it was my own business, I guess I could draw my own lines but as an employee, I service everyone . I guess I need to "render unto Cesar" from time to time to make a living.
The constitution is very clear on religious freedom.Our ancestors came to this land for religious expression.The state has no business telling anyone how to think.It’s funny how anti religious people cite the “separation of church and state” fallacy and until they want the state to tell religious people how to think,then it’s ok.Let this man be too live and worship as he sees fit,there are plenty of other places that will bake a cake to fit ones needs,stop trying to force people to do things against their conscience.
No soup for you. I think he has the right to refuse based on his religious standings. I don't think it is discrimination. Its kinda like if I don't want to work for a company that makes a flag that represents Nazis or makes guns etc. I have the right to use my talents the way I want and not make things that I don't. He is in fact an artist and he should have the right to decide what and when to practice his profession. There are other cake shops out there go to one who does not see this as an issue. We ALL have the right to believe in what we want.
You're equation of a known genocidal hate group with the LGBTQ community is a false equation....not supporting the Nazis or KKK or Alt-Right has absolutely ZERO to do with not supporting a group/section of the community that is no different than anyone else. Do you propose we go back to serving blacks and whites in seperate sections and so on and so forth? The bigots from the time this country was founded used the Bible and Christianity as the basis for slavery and then Jim Crow.....you are suggesting the exact same thing!
"No different than anyone else"? Whooooowee.
Why try to make it a racial issue? That is always the default position of the left when they have no rational argument.
@ John... Exactly.... No discrimination here. Bringing very personal topics into a cake order is a "custom product". A custom product not offered by them, no matter who you are. Is that Go-Fund-Me pg still up?
No Katelynne what I'm saying is that he has the right not to make the cake. The LGBTQ community has gained equality under the law. That does not mean that people have to agree with the lifestyle. If I don't want to associate with someone who takes drugs do I have to? they have a lifestyle that I do not approve of. If a Nazi came into the bakery and wanted the baker to bake a cake with Dead people on the top of it and right Jew next to the body should he have to do it. Of course not. He is being asked to create something out of the ordinary. Like it or not Being gay is not normal. Some people look at it differently than others do. The definition of normal is the conforming to a standard; Usual, Typical or Expected non of which the gay community has become even today. I'm not saying its right wrong etc. what I'm saying is that the baker based on his religious leanings has the right not to accept it if he is so inclined. I think its bad business but that's not my call. As for the blacks and whites in separate sections etc. Blacks and whites and Asians and Spanish decent are all pretty much normal at this point. As is evidenced by the commercials on TV you have mixed couples on every other commercial so I think its safe to say that it is normal. Or at least the media things so.
Another unequal comparison. Was the baker's shop already selling Nazi cakes with dead Jews on it?
If not, he's not breaking the law by refusing to start doing it.
If yes, then his public shop must sell them to whoever has the money to pay for it.
It's not complicated.
Selling a wedding cake doesn't equal participation in the wedding. It's food served to the guests after the ceremony.
What happens to the cake after it leaves the shop is not the baker's endorsement, and is no reflection on him. You might as well hold gun manufacturers responsible for people getting shot.
@ Rick S... Once the cake leaves the shop? Hmmm. WOW, who did your cake???? As I see it, the endorsement is... His product, his designs, the advertising, the pix & videos that HE did the cake will be all over the internet & social media w/ his work / signature on it.
'no different than anyone else.' No, Shouse, these LGBT?XYZ perverts ARE different than the norm.
They engage in despicable, unnatural relations. They try to convince others that their abominable life style is OK. God says it is sin. Many troll for victims and groom the unwary for their licentious purposes.
These 'misfits' are to pitied and prayed for. Their repentance toward God is a start in the right direction for their deliverance.
Bob, such hate. It's too bad you haven't read the New Testament in some time. It will tell you to love the sinner and not call them perverts or misfits.
In our great country, in the public sector, everyone has the same rights as everyone else. You cannot refuse goods or services based on gender preference or race or a myriad of other kinds of people. Do you support refusing service based on language or physical limitations? You cannot legally do this. No where in the Bible does it say that a business can refuse service based on beliefs. This is a man-made situation. And as we all know, when individuals make their own laws, most others suffer.
I agree that this particular situation does have the appearance of trolling this particular baker. But he is the one who refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding in the first place. The Supreme Court decision given to that particular case contained specific reasons unique to that case. It was not a tacit approval for refusing service based on religious beliefs. Read the whole story to understand the decision.
The government cannot force any church to accept gay members or perform gay marriages. How many churches would accept a person wearing a KKK hood or Nazi inspired clothing? I can only think of one - Westboro.
Keep your hate in check. It makes for a much better life and relationship with Jesus.
I DO read the N.T. regularly. Maybe you ought to not pick and choose what you 'think' the N.T. says!
Jesus, Himself judged and called names of those with attitudes and behavior contrary to God's Word. In Matthew 7:6,15-16, Jesus used terms like 'false prophets', swine, dogs, etc. And in Matthew 23:23 He terms people 'hypocrites'. He called them names because of their actions, attitudes and behavior.
And in John 7:24 Jesus tells us to 'judge rightly' and in Luke 17:3 we are to 'rebuke' the errant. In numerous places in the Bible we are admonished to use discretion, discernment, and judgement.
If Jesus was discerning of people's attitudes and lifestyles, and we are His disciples, then it follows that we, too, are to do the similar. .
That's actually a good, rational answer, Bob. It is not hate to tell a child not to play in traffic, or pet stray dogs, or drink bleach. No good fruit from some behaviors.
Not everyone follows your religion and believes the things you do.
Stop trying to force others to practice your particular religion.
In a few decades there will be 10 bullion ppl on earth & there will be 10 billion religions as every one spins, dictates and interprets the (already mis-translated) biblical works to their personal phaneron. When translated properly, it will be clear that all biblical teaching are for personal growth, personal development and kinda like an owners manual for the spiritual being that we should be.. Not instruction books on how to dictate your neighbor wrongs / rights. To many pots calling the kettle black.
Stop forcing 95% of America that Your choice to be a Homosexual has to be Accepted by Christians who believe it is an Abominable SIN. You wouldn't want a Majority of Americans to Change what they Believe Do You??
that would be Quite Fascist
Bob, I challenge you to study the Word deeper than what you have been taught all you life by other CHRISTIANS. I thought I knew what it really says too, until I studied it deeper for myself and really allowed the Spirit to direct me instead of allowing my mind and spirit to be influenced by what I had always been taught.
Study the "word", go deeper? In my case, it is studied deep. Copious ppl tell me over & over. I go to far, go deeper, I take it to far. I ask them, what is "to deep / go deeper". They have no answer but say "read the books". Everything taken far enough will create a parodox. Understand parodoxs & one will understand life. At that point it will be clear the student will have no use for all one has "learned". Let the baker alone & get on w/ YOUR life, not manipulate others. It is un godly (GOD = LOVE). it is unloving. Navigate your path with wisdom & discretion.
Does it? Same premise. A person with a perceived abhorrent practice , demanding you produce a product specifically for them.. satanic church is recognized, he refused that also . He gladly would sell them a cake just not a cake that was made specifically for them.
He says that but others asked for a shelf cake after he found out they were gay and refused to sale even a plain cake to them
It doesn't take much of an artist to bake a box cake and squirt some icing on it. I could even do that. And I wouldn't charge much either. As long as they pay for it I'll write anything on it. I'd even put Congratulations Jesus & St.Judas On Your Gay Wedding. I wouldn't even care if the guy who ordered it said his name was Satan ! But I would make him pay cash in advance. I wonder what Bob thinks about that.
The Evangelical Zealots are out in force and would gladly have us return to ignorance and hatred over medical and scientific knowledge.....until the country is wiped clean of the absolute stupidity of Herr Twittler the Orange, Cotton Pence, and their SS underlings this us what we have to look forward to!
Katelynne, the only zealots on this page are rooting for the trans person. There is no need for hyperbole, hand-wringing, or hysteria here. The trans person who file the lawsuit only did so to get 15 minutes of fame and this case will go just like the previous one involving this baker, as neither the law, nor the constitution, nor the Bill of Rights have changed. Your reference to ignorance and hatred should be directed at yourself, and this has nothing whatsoever to do with scientific knowledge. Furthermore, your side acts a lot more like NAZIs than the other side. Just saying.
+1 ;-) power to the people!
Katelynne is a radical leftist who apparently has trump derangement syndrome. There way is the only way. Tolerance for only their chosen ppl. Everyone else they are intolerant in contrary to their scream for tolerance. Scream down those who they disagree with and don't hold a adult discourse
Oh, if it was ONLY Trump derangement syndrome!
I am a member of the American Counseling Association, which is the professional organization for the Mental Health Counseling Profession in America. Our bylaws clearly point out my responsibility--to defend the rights of those in the LGBTQ community. I strongly support that bylaw, and the people it is meant to protect.
Ilk? Strong word. Ilk could also be said of the lbtgxyz community. They Demand fealty to their cause or else they will take you down. It was a total setup by the man dressed as a women.
Todd.....Christians have trolled non christians....non christian businesses and do similar harassment all the time ........
Todd, I couldn't agree with you more, the LGBTQ community constitutes and "ilk" (one that I do not belong to, by the way.) If the member of any ilk poses in a roll with the intent of tricking another person into doing something that could get them in trouble, that is clearly wrong. I think that the LGBTQ community has some members who are operating from an extremely hateful position.
As I see it, you cannot overcome hate by doing something that is hateful. The baker has some very definite rights. As I suggested in another posting on this topic, the baker is a de facto artist, and should have the latitude to make the cake the way he wants to make it, based upon his feelings.
I prefer not to judge the baker--nor the member of the LGBTQ community. However, in this case, given the circumstances, I would be hard pressed to find any justification for demanding that someone makes a piece of artwork in a manner which would violate the artist's sense of values. In fact, it is downright stupid. Weddings are supposed to be a very special means of expressing love for those getting married. When the groom and bride participate in any hateful activity in conjunction with their wedding, I cannot help but wonder if the groom and bride also display hate towards one another?
The liberal, progressive community may disagree with me, they may even revoke my membership, but there is a time and a place for things. Making a mockery of your own wedding? Something is wrong with that picture.
My counselors always encouraged me to talk, while they listened. And one of the diplomas on my wall states that I am a drug and alcohol treatment specialist. Nevertheless, I still think the Bible makes great rolling papers, and would recommend it to relapsing clients.
Not all counselors give good advice. They aren't trained as advisors.
Many professional counselors that I know call it "talk therapy", so you hit the nail right on the head.
BTW, I live in Hawaii, where you can legally purchase both hemp rolling papers and the canabis to put into it--which I'm told is a superior combination to pieces of paper covered in ink with Biblical sayings on them.
Also, I must compliment you on having a drug and alcohol treatment specialist certificate on your wall! Sounds like you earned it the hard way...
I'll set up a lemonade stand and refuse service to "christians" on the very same principals. How long until there is a picket line in front of my stand? Sorry, but this can and will work both ways.
Except most Christians won't go to your stand waving their "Christian flag" and saying "ooooo I want you to make me a Christian lemonade."
A lemonade stand. Thats is an across-the-board product. Order a lemonade in custom form, IE: More / less sugar or lemons, bigger / smaller glass. How about a shot of ginger. The stand sells lemonade & NOT sells custom-ade. A gay, a Jew, a Christian will be denied service all alike. Is that profiling? No matter who orders a custom product at the lemonade stand. Its a vendor that NOT produce / perform as requested to all alike. IE: In the bake shops or the lemonade stands case. Either way, its not a custom product the vendor offers. Even if a straight couple order a gay cake for their neighbor. The bake shop would also decline the job as the service is not their forte. Go into Safeway, Albertsons, or other big chain store, order a cake w/ vulgarities or body parts on it. One may be denied service equally across the board based on the product ordered.
In terms of picket lines, groups that are in the majority have no need to picket to get there word heard--because they are the majority. So while I believe that it is perfectly OK to refuse services to Christians, I believe it is also perfectly OK to picket the refusal. But I don't think anyone needs to make a Federal Case out of it!
The gov't has no business here....or in most things they meddle in.
He can make (or not make) cakes for whomever he choses.
Already decided in the earlier case.
I've even seen bakers flicking boogers into the batter of special interest cakes. And don't piss off clerks at Dairy Queen, or they'll jerk something special into the soft serve. Sounds scrumptious, doesn't it ?
Elfstron: With your limited intelligence/vocabulary, you resort to crude, disgusting and emotive effluent. Most viewers of ULC would rather be informed, be challenged, be entertained instead of being inundated with crass vulgarities. Do yourself and others a favor by spewing your drivel elsewhere.
HE HAS THE WRIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE SOUNDS LIKE THE LAWYER JUST WANTS MONEY HE STANDS FOR HE BELIVE I WOULD DO THE SAME
In all reality, the bake shop is not refusing service to the trans-cross customer. The issue lies w/ the product ordered. its not a product they offer. If the same trans / cross customer ordered a product they offered, the cake would be made. If ANY ONE orders such a custom cake, they would be denied equally.
Dear Wesley W Brown... I am attempting to decipher what it was that you were trying to explain. Could you please try again, preferably not in all capital letters?
We've been there with Wesley numerous times before, but can't seem to get through to him.
This case was a too well known. Appears the transgender customer targeted them. I'm sure he/ she KNEW where the bake co stood on making such cakes. There is also a law that states "Business have the right to do business w/ who they choose based on the ability to offer such goods or services". How many ppl get refused entry to a night club based on age, gender? (to many men in a club means to few women in a club that has a legal occupancy limit. How many liquor stores refuse to sell to some ppl (of legal age). Also, No shoes, no shirt-no service claims. This business serves baked goods. Let's see how many ways this can be state.... A cross gender / gay type cake is NOT available to anyone, regardless of their personal status or standing. This cross customer will get no cross gender based cake. Straight or gay, cross or ???. NO CUSTOMER will get any such cake. Wrong or right / good or bad / gay or straight / Christian or Jew / male or female. If the cross gender orders a product they offer, I'm sure the bake co will perform. If a heterosexual ordered a product and they requested it be "custom - subject focused" to unacceptable content. they can just say "we offer no such product". The customers personal preferences is irreverent here. They offer NO product (in this case-custom) as requested to ANYONE. It will be no surprised to me if the bake co wins this one also.
The cake makers prejudice's are well known, and in My opinion and experience not at all Christian. In these days I think it's well and good to shine light on the bigots and haters in our midst. Let the free market make up its own mind and spend its money in full knowledge of who we are bringing our business to.
Recall the cases where the KKK wanted to adopt roads for clean-up? Get a KKK sign on government property for advertising? ...
... or ... https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/05/kkk-georgia-klan-highway-adoption-legal ...
Oh the legal paradox in the systems. Where will it end. Little minds (kids) seeing KKK on the public roads.
When I choose a business to patronize, it's important to me to know up front if they have some personal issue with me or the segment of society I may appear to represent. I would prefer that the cake maker, and any other business clearly states on their front door or in their display window just exactly who, AND who NOT they wish to sell their product's and services to. The sign in MY business COULD read," I choose to conduct business with all who are NOT racist, homophobe, transphobe, xenophobe, or fascist. Thank you for your patronage." But in fact, ALL are welcome to seek and enjoy the products and services I am happy to provide, regardless of your beliefs or phobia's. I currently repair, maintain, and restore vintage music amplifiers, professional sound equipment, solid body guitars, and accessories.
@ Step... Thats a great point. Like kind & quality for repairing a device. Now go spin / DJ the gay wedding. That is where some ppl have an issue.
You do not provide a custom , ie artistic, product. You provide a service that does not make custom products. Not the same. Onlt phobias are the atheists and lgbtqxyz community and their hatred of christian community. Why go someplace you know the person will say no. That is what the he/she did. Targeted harrassment. They continued by repeatedly calling and asked for offensive cakes. Satanic, penis etc
That's why Christians, Jews and Muslims are banned from my gift shop, (private Pagan church ran gift shop) I also refuse to do any monotheistic artwork , nor donate to any monist charity
I would never consider eating a cake that was made especially for me by someone who I knew didn't like me
There is a lot of truth to Carl's words... One can bless their food or one can curse the food. The energy of "blessing" can be toggled. Unable to locate the article about restaurants that hire ministers to bless meals B4 they go out. Ever wonder why prayers appear to go unanswered? Never serve or eat when upset. That baker knows he was unable to perform a quality service to the customer.
I believe this baker is just pushing the envelope to see how far he can take this. He has no integrity and is hiding behind religion to cover his personal bias. I do believe God is sitting up there laughing his ass off at the stupidity of the human race and all its foibles!
I interpret it the other way, Carla. It appears the LGBTQ zealots are determined to try to force people to accept their foibles or be forced out of business. I do agree that God would be laughing except it is so sad He just shakes His head.
God made adam then his companion eve. So they could procreate. Did not make another to have homosexual relations.
@ Todd ... That interpretation is subjective to ones personal phaneron & how we as a society is taught from a mis-construed biblical entomology.
That baker thought he'd found a clever way to raise his middle finger at the gays, and get away with it. He's using his particular religion to cloak his bigotry, and we all know it.
Rick Smith, you may be correct, but that sword cuts both ways. The trans person here is doing the same thing to Christians, and everyone knows it.
John Owens, how do you know the trans person is NOT Christian? Most of the trans community I know are spiritual people, and many ARE Christian. Trans and Christian are not mutually exclusive, just as Bigot and Christian are not mutually exclusive.
Dear Reverend Krystina,
Please don't confuse this discussion by bringing in facts. And besides, we all know that a person who claims to be a Christian cannot be a Bigot--those two are mutually exclusive.
Ooops, sorry, I just realized that I sinned by responding to your missive, Why? Because I brought in another of the things that is dreaded in this forum almost as much as facts--and that is logic.
Sorry, Reverend Glenn
There are a big difference between Christians and gays, trans etc. Christians abide by the truth and by God. Where as the gays etc are confused by metal illness. They are controlled by evil. They are perverted, attention seeking lost souls. They want to promote this as a badge of courage and honor and dance down the street in pride parades in outrageous costumes. They managed to get the liberals on board to take it all to a new level. They are in your face every where you go. They flaunt it like it was normal. And they push and push their agenda even to out young children. You can't have religion in schools but you can have books like " MY Two Mommies" and other sickening things to teach our 5 year olds. Just like Rome when perversion was the norm. Well Rome fell. So you tell me how can there be a gay or trans etc and a say they are a Christian at the same time as God himself would throw them into the lake of Fire.
Why are they purposely targeting Christian bakeries etc? To further their sick and twisted agenda. Instead of supporting their own gay businesses they would rather try to shut down Christian businesses. They are all just puppets with satan as their puppet master.
I can't even put a movie on without seeing two women kissing in the first 5 minutes. Or drive through town without seeing rainbows every where. A couple years ago the city cancelled the Christmas parade, the excuse was the city didn't have the thousand dollars for the insurance. But then go ahead with a big new rainbow pride flag to fly high at City hall and a big celebration and pride parade all paid for by the city. It took a local citizen to pay for insurance so the kids could have a Christmas parade, how sickening is that.
When you homo's bark about you don't have enough gay rights etc here. Wait until you see what kind of rights you get in Hell.
theres a difference between a christian and a follower of christ.christian has just become a word almost all religions use.I have a relationship with God.
Rev Wayne, it's sad to see how bitter a person can become when they don't practice what they preach. You can't love when you're focused on hate. As a Christian you should be aware of this. "Metal illness", I'm guessing that was Mental, or maybe I missed something. It's all about biological differences. God doesn't make mistakes, does he/she. In your mind there is a big difference between Christians and gays. In reality they can truly be one and the same. Everyone has a right to love God or not, how ever they perceive it. Your hostility promotes a non-Christian attitude. There are many stagnant Christians throwing the bible around and trying to get attention. They create quite a spectacle of themselves. Perhaps it's a need for attention, I'm not totally sure, but I do know your hatred will eat you alive if you don't get over it. Blessed be!
Also, GAY and bigot are not mutually exclusive, and LEFTIST and bigot are not mutually exclusive. AND if the TRANS person is a Christian, WHY are so many on this blog blaming bigotry on CHRISTIANS? As if ONLY Christians are bigots? Can't you see what is going on here?
Let me see here, A clever way to give the finger? bigotry. What is it w/ so many ppl taking the bakers inventory (motive, intent & desires) then running w/ all the assumptions as IF the gavel is swung ~ guilty. Analogy of discrimination. 1, Hi there pop, I'm a 92 yo man, me & your 18yo daughter is gonna elope. Does dad have anything to say about it ? 2, Hi bob... I'm gay and want to date you. And if you say NO. I'll sue the pant off you for discrimination. The bible states, cast ones pearls wisely. < --- That means be discriminating in ones choices.
Dear James H.,
The difficulty that I am having when I read, then re-read, your comment, is that I am unsure as to which side of the argument you are supporting...
You see, in every state the laws are such that a 92-year-old man does not need the permission of dear old dad if he wants to marry the 18-year-old daughter.
I reside in Hawaii, where (sad but true) the law would not even require parental permission if the girl is 8-years-old! I happen to be familiar with this insane law because, as a minister, I had to become licensed to officiate at nuptials by the State of Hawaii--so just for the heck of it, I read the law.
92 yo marry 18 yo... "needing" permission or not. My point was the emotional & mental status the dad would have in the situation. Which "side" am I on? You read correctly. I avoid taking sided. But, along w/ me, I also have the similar trait. It is also called phaneron. If I was to "take a side. it would be "for" the baker. The stand alone comment you read dated Aug-23 at 19:27 holds no sides.
I have to come out in favor of the baker, too. But my reasons are different from many people who take that stance--but I think you are agreeing with the same essential principles to which I am alluding.
I enjoy reading your comments because you do try not to take sides...
Aloha, Rev Glenn
Reverend Wayne, you ask why gay people are targeting "Christian" bakeries? For the same reason that black people targeted white racist businesses that refused to serve their people: to keep protesting those businesses and taking them to court until they stopped refusing to serve black people and gave equal service to all, as they should! Gay people (regardless of your feelings about them) are part of the civil community and so gay rights are also civil rights, whether you like it or not, and so should be given to these gay people, the same as everyone else!!! You wouldn't want a business that discriminated against homophobic and ignorant bigots, such as yourself, denying you service, would you? So, don't approve of any other business' denying gay people service and equal treatment, either! That is the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Ever hear of it? As for gay people's being "disgusting" to you, interracial couples are pretty "disgusting" to white racists, too, and so do you think that there shouldn't be any interracial couples because of white racists' "disgust" over them or anybody else that anybody anywhere is "disgusted" by? Homophobic bigots genuinely disgust me, too, but even you and your ilk have the right to exist, I suppose, the same as flies, so long as you keep your bigotry to yourselves and don't go buzzing around people and annoying them with it! Rome fell because of incompetent rulership, which had nothing to do with their being homosexuals there. Study your history, if you can.
John Owens, gay and bigot and leftist and bigot aren't mutually exclusive, anymore than black and bigoted against white people (because of some white people's treatment of and attitudes toward black people) are mutually exclusive, and they just lump all white people into the same category and hate them all, as does the Nation of Islam and the New Black Panther Party. That much is true. Some gay people also hate all straight people and lump them all together because of gay bashers and others who have harmed them personally or the gay community and some leftists hate right-wingers because of personal offenses from them or their assault on liberalism. That much is true, but who initiates this resentment and bigotry? It is nearly always the right-wingers, such as yourself. Anybody can be against anybody or anything, but right-wingers are the most anti-people of all people because you are against everyone who is different than you and the main initiators of bigotry, to which some people also retaliate and give you the same in return!! So many people on this blog are blaming Christians and calling Christians bigots because Christians are the primarily bigoted group here.
I'm sorry, John. I didn't initiate a DAMNED thing. Now, Mr. Reasonable and Rational, If I am against everyone different than me, WHY have I consistently maintained civil discourse with YOU, in spite of your many, many insults to me? The Baker here did not initiate this. The trans person did. I didn't initiate any slurs. YOU did. So, evidence HERE says, it is not the right-wingers initiating the resentment and bigotry, but the LEFT-wingers. "Christians are the primarily bigoted group here." You said that. PERFECT example.
I wonder how this baker would feel if it was done to him. I'm an Atheist and he comes in and wants a cake with something religious on it. And the Atheist refuses because its against his beliefs. And don't tell me atheist have no spiritualism because they do and are very good people...And as always ..Christians crying again of being miss treated.. I treat people the way I like to be treated..Even if I dont agree.
He's likely just say "Oh.....o.k." and find another baker to do his cake, not try to make a federal case out of it.
BTW- by your very statement, you make his cake, lol.
Do we ever think an artist and a medium should be forced by government and law to create anything? Just asking Where your lines are?
Exactly, he is not making a cake undecorated,, he is an artist. If someone were to go to a painter and say please paint "this" but "this" goes against their belief system, they do not have to paint "this". If an artist does only nudes, and someone asks them to do a fully clothed, they have the right to say no, and vice versa. This is not wal-mart, it is a place of artistic creation !
Calling decorating a cake "art" is a stretch at best.
Art is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I could consider a specialty item, such as a wedding cake, could be "mass produced"--but one that is made by a wedding cake artist will always be a work of art. As I said in another post, even if the cake baker is forced to make this cake, there is no reason, as an artist, that he cannot add some creative bit of artistry to his creation. If I were cake baker (I'm not), and felt like he does about LGBQT folks (I don't), I would add some little touch to that cake, such as a the sign that points downward and says: "damned to hell" (except I don't believe in hell!)
When you commission an artist to create a piece of art, you are stuck with the bill even if you do not like his creation.
Why cannot we just leave the bakers of this world alone?
So, if I were a baker, I would advertise to my customers that my products were works of art, and by definition involved the use of my creativity. I might also point out that l will employ my deepest spiritual beliefs into creating a masterpiece for them. I think that any baker worth his [very expensive] salt would have contracts for his customers to sign. That contract should point out that a baker while creating a cake to the best of his ability, a baker incorporates the baker's belief system into that baker's creation.
< ---- Agrees... well stated...
Leave bakers alone? Because some ppl are just half baked (if that) customers.
This is entrapment! This transgender lawyer knew that the baker had a lawsuit filed against him for refusing to make a cake for a same-sex wedding, so she decided to stir the pot and ask for the cake to be made for her anniversary of sexual reassignment.
Sounds like she wanted to see how the first lawsuit went, and if it didn't go her way, she would file.
I'm all for equal rights here but, entrapment is NEVER good! This guy has a business. He made cakes for the same-sex couple but just couldn't bring himself to make a custom wedding cake for them. Now, along comes this woman wanting an anniversary cake for her change. She will never convince me, or anyone else who can think logically, that she didn't hear about this original lawsuit and know how HER request was going to go.
If there were no other bakers around, I could see an issue...maybe but, this is just malicious! She is purposely going out to ruin this man's life because he will not back down from what he truly believes.
HE not she. Cant change dna. Just like we cant change color. Do my appearing white children not get to celebrate their black and indian heritage cause they look white. Yes they get discriminated in communities because of their color. Does racheal dozell get to claim she is black when infact she is lilly whire with no black dna?
Epigeniticly AND metaphysically speaking, humans CAN change their DNA, their color, energy codes and ones self in copious ways. RNA is way more difficult (not impossible) to modify.
Excellent point, James.
In a few decades, this could become an interesting world. In addition to a kid needing to choose HIS clothing outfit for the day, SHE will also need to choose IT'S gender of the day! Wow, just the pronouns involved are a cause for confusion!
As I have indicated copious times... And also as Alicia stated, A form of set-up. The article stated "in the national spotlight for refusing to design a cake". That is a custom product, off the path of the bakers line goods of what they offer. What ever the choice may be... Its NOT a product they offer to any gay or straight (as if a straight person ordered a gay themed cake for the neighbor).
Only baker in town? Even if he was the only game in town, The Gov should NOT be able to force the baker to offer products & services they wish (for which ever reason the baker chooses) to offer. Again, NO off color / unacceptable products are offered.
It's a business, if he wants to risk his business by denying you a stupid cake, then go elsewhere....If he were a doctor, it would be a completely different ballgame!!
I have turned dr in because of their bias. Like the uroligist who performed a vasectomey and when asking me if it hurt exclaimed good it is god's way of punishing you. I am Christian and he was catholic. I never went back to him again. Why would i feel he did not perform correctly. Same with a cake why fo there. (I am for the baker he has the right to do what he wants) the urologist should bot have been doing vasectomey if he was against them
If it were a Dr? Different ballgame? I've had many a Dr's deny me service. One of the more common claims Dr used to deny... " injuries occurred outside their scope of acceptability". In brief, I was injured in ways or needed non-emergency medical care that happened in a way that was unacceptable to the facility.
A human being must be true to themselves. I have married gay couples and never gave it a thought. Individual freedom is the most important gift given us. Leave the man alone. We can live a peaceful, loving life without having to have him share our believes. Show him the same courtesy.
Well put Don. There is great passion here and when we think emotionally rather than logically, we end up marching off to do battle armed with incomplete thought. Bottom line is we are challenged with loving all people. Christianity is hard.
A business has the right to refuse service. And "the narrow 7-to-2 decision", NARROW??
The "narrow decision" in this case means that the ruling was made because of a legal point in this particular case. They found that the earlier ruling had been arbitrarily hostile to the baker's religion, and that he had been treated unfairly because of this.
It's not a ruling on a broad point that sets a legal precedent for other cases of it's kind. It's specific to just this one case.
Also, you can print anything you like on a sign and hang it on the wall, but that doesn't necessarily make it legal.
If there is so much controversy then I say let the people decide if there are enough people in the community offended by his refusal then shut the shop down let his store go under why does it have to include the law or religion when the wallets of the community in which his business is in can simply never go to him and let is business go under. Don't go on about my punctuation and my sentence structure if you have a comment be an adult and get over it it's not the issue.
Yes, my sentiments exactly.
I don't approve of discrimination, but if I had been refused service by this baker, I wouldn't have handled it the way this customer did.
Lawsuits are time consuming and expensive for all concerned, and it stirs up too much animosity. I would've organized a boycott instead, publicize what happened, and perhaps contact the media,
That way, people can vote with their dollars on whether or not the community wants to support a business that turns away customers on an arbitrary basis.
The gay community does not operate on a hive mentality, with everyone sharing the same opinion. It's composed of individuals with a wide range of beliefs, and we don't always agree on everything.
A decent person would simply arrange for another baker to make the cake. No need to treat people this way.
One has the right to ask for a cake. One has the right also to refuse service. While homosexual people may be part of the community and transgender people and so on, it is also true that people that follow YHVH are part of the community. The difference here is that the worst case scenario for the transgender person is that they do not get a cake as they have specified for the reason they specified. For the person following YHVH it is the entire loss of business and livelihood for following what YHVH commands.
The gay community is using tactics like these to try to force people out of the community at large who do not agree with what they find acceptable. This is not being denied food or being forced to drink from another water fountain as per the civil rights. The racism present for African Americans was present on discrimination of an entire race who were enslaved on that basis which is not in and of itself, a Biblical injunction.
This incident is in flagrant contradiction to Biblical law, and then attempts to use the court of man to uphold Babylon as a form of persecution for those that follow YHVH. It is, in essence, no different than baking cakes to the queen of heaven, which is also forbidden by the Bible.
In short, while I do not feel it is my place to prevent someone who wants a gender change, it is neither their place to dictate to me terms which violate my ability to believe as I wish.
"The gay community is using tactics like these to try to force people out of the community at large who do not agree with what they find acceptable."
But isn't that exactly what you're trying to do by denying equal treatment to other people because they don't fit your religion's beliefs?
The US is not a theocracy, and your religion's dogma has no place in civil law. It's no excuse for denying civil rights to other people.
You have a right to follow your religion, but you have no right to make others practice it.
t about having the person follow or practice (the bakers) religion, but the baker
s religion, made himSelf feel uncomfortable if he were to create his art, in a manner or form he didnt feel comfortable with, as it violated how he personally feels in regard to his religion. None of us should feel so entitled for any reason, whether religious, sexual, financial, or any other reason, that we FORCE another person, to do anything that they feel violates their belief system.
So Rick, let me get this straight-- You are OK with one group forcing another to accommodate it, but not OK with the other group forcing accommodation. Is that what you are saying?
What is the difference between him and a restaurant refusing to serve the White House press secretary and her family?
The way I see it, there's no difference. Both parties should've been served and given the same treatment these establishments give their other customers.
BTW, I'm a liberal Democrat.
The difference, this is a custom cake, artistically made. The customer wasn
t asking for any cake, and denied, but asked for an artistic creation upon the cake, which takes it out of the same generic scope. The baker wasnt making cakes that simply say happy anniversary, or happy birthday, then adding a name per request, but creating art, and as thus, should not be forced into doing it in a way that violates his personal belief system. The restaurant, even if asked , hold this spice, add this spice,etc, was not doing custom orders, but serving meals to the public, that were pre-planned via a menu for All, which makes the difference between the two, in my humble opinion. I think that any business should be able to refuse service, unless it is an emergency room, pharmacy, public utility, or the only establishment of the like within so many miles, example a gas station, as the customer could run out of gas, or a grocery store if it is the only close one, and even then that would be more for rural areas.
Disagreement with someone does not allow you to label it hate. Christians can disagree with another’s beliefs. Does not mean they hate them.
@ John... exactly... Ones choices are NOT always as the perceiver sees (phaneron). Let the baker be & respect HIS if you want us to respect your views (right or wrong).
This is another group targeting this baker. He refuses to bake these items based on his religious beliefs. Since all religion is based on a belief would a Muslim baker bake this cake? No as this religion kills homosexuals. This baker needs to be left alone and the LGBTQ/GENDER CONFUSED customers find another baker.
@ Eddie... Excellent analogy / point. "would a Muslim baker bake this cake? No as this religion kills homosexuals...
I have trouble understanding the Christian justification for not providing services to one deemed immoral. I understand the Christian position regarding the immorality of homosexuality, but not for then refusing services. Jesus seemed to provide love and compassion to all - saint or sinner. Hate the sin, but love the sinner. I don't understand how providing a service to someone is showing acceptance for their lifestyle.
The baker doesn't want to be part of the sin
how is baking a cake part of the sin? The baker is not engaging in any illicit actions?
The purpose of the cake was " to celebrate the anniversary of her transition from male to female". In Christian religion this is an "illicit action" aka sin. Christians don't celebrate what The Bible say is a sin or be a part of that celebration. Look at the Supreme Court ruling and what they said, or better, ask The Pope
Thanks, Judge. I guess we just have different perspectives on how directly one has to be involved in an activity to be considered complicit in a sin. I do not agree that baking the cake is in any way being a part of the celebration. From my perspective, baking a cake for a function does not in any way imply the baker endorses that function or the values of the participants. It's only a cake. I don't read any more into it.
Who is to draw the line, make the call as to how biblical teachings should be interpreted Phaneron is at play & ppl want their egos satisfied. What if i wanted to go into a christian church & asked the pulpit to read from the Koran? or get museums to read from the book of James. Egotistical manipulation of others in this manner is a form of blasphemy against the reason we are all on earth. Spiritual being have an human experience. Lets get back on track PPL.
By Bob's reasoning, I suppose Christians should furnish condoms to hookers, and healthy fruit to pedophiles so their victims will have healthy snacks. After all, wouldn't Jesus do that?
How is baking a cake part of a sin. Sin or not... God will make that call as to waht is or not right.. Not some humans w/ a problematic case of phaneron. How about a flag co making me flags. Oh Wait.. .let me CUSTOMize that. I'm a POTUS hater... I want flags that support my cause. ~ F the POTUS ~ Oh yea... And make me flags that support the KKK. or I'm all for OJ Simpson, or Bill Causby. or I'm in2 anything others would find offensive or unacceptable. This world and all the business are NOT gonna cater to all the egos on the world. They are entitled to their rights to yes no as well as the buyer is entitled to their "I WANT - gimmy gimmy".
Not involved in "the action"? LOL. Until his website, his likeness, his product, his VERY unique work ends up on some gay website, various social medias & who knows where else showing off the Gr8 work the guy does. I can see the "exposure" on the internet now... Hey Bob, the party was great. We smeared the icing of John Doe's cake all over his XXXXXX. Then be bob'ed for french fries. No way would I wish to have any mom & pop shop of a smaller town smeared on the net like that.
Why are you insinuating that the gay couple would do something of that nature at their wedding reception? Do you know them personally? Not all gay people are involved in sexual activities that you are referring to, just as all straight people are not involved in or involved in such activities. Some straight people would be just as likely to do those things and post them online as some gay people would, but not all in either group. Some straight couples are swingers and such just as some gay couples are, but not all in either group are. For the record, personally I would have just gone to another baker to have my cake made. However I wish someone would tell me what kind of custom cake they were requesting, because clearly the baker does custom work. Its my understanding that the Trans individual was ordering a cake with blue on the outside and pink on the inside and I see nothing offensive about that. However I do believe the baker was targeted and personally I would have found another baker to bake my cake.
@ Steven. Aug-24-18,06:18 hrs, entry below... Why am I "insinuating". Why am I performing an act I'm innocent of? Do I detect my inventory being taken to the point of assUming. Kinda like asking when did one stop beating their dog. No insinuating here. If I meant the verbiage you claim, I would have come right out and stated it. Do I know of it happening? I see it copious time where ppl have sold vehicles & left their name on the door... https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-truck-sold-around-the-world/ ... One never known where their item, product or their likeness / name will end up. My focus is more on the legalize and ramifications of the situation. NOT who is ultimately guilty of doing what. You see no offence in a 2 tone cake? Unfortunately, the baker did see a conflict. Blue / pink cake? Lets see the FULL description of the cake and hear the discussion of how & why the baker claims to have known so much to decline business to a stranger & know sooooo much of the strangers intimate, personal situation? There is plenty of still waters running deep here that few of us arm chair respondents know.
Steven, on Aug-24-18,06:18. .. Or how about this one.... https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/russian-asbestos-trump_face/ ... Do ppl, companies or business want their likness being the target of what one has no believe, gay this, straight that... ALL clusters of ppl are capable of such atrocities to smear ones likeness or services (intentional or accidental). In this case, the baker is the one to make the call. Not others.
Jesus was a framer / builder (wood working). Did he work for ALL or did he cast his pearls wisely?
Yes, he provided the same service to all alike, but he would have refused (customized) service if the homosexual had told him the only way to provide his service was to jump into bed and have sex with him.
Hmmmmmm -- If one goes into business, main thought is to make money. If you are going to discriminate, you are defeating that purpose. It is self defeating as it alienates other potential customers. Besides, what gave you the right to shove your particular religious beliefs down others throats,
I'm an investor. I make $$$ from "investing". Do I buy stock in the tobacco industry knowing my part (investment) will be killing ppl? I can make $$$ from ppl getting sick from cigs. Do we invest in the drug industry and make BIG bucks at the expense of ppls health? I avoid doing business w/ any one I choose to & not suit for doing so.
It is wrong for ULC to write "Bahed with Hate" by this man art. They they not know what is in his heart and mind and are misleading their readers with their bias and their falsehoods. The only hate being expressed is by ULC in this instance and by the people who are trying to force him to do something he does not want to do. They should both feel shame, offer an apology and leave him alone to bake cakes when, where and for whomever he wants.
Well, Joseph never claimed to be unbiased. It seems every other article has something to do with LGBTQ. He obviously is trying to work out some of his own cognitive dissonance here, but Hey, if he didn't keep trying to push the LBTQ agenda, there would be a lot less reason for argument, and the blog would suffer.
That was shocking to me too. ULC is not a real church, it is a business. The Supreme Court ruled that it is not hate, but persecution of Christians is everywhere this days.
Altho operated for & in different ways. ALL churches are a business. Especially to the Gov & IRS.
Addendum... Churches are in the recycling business. Saving, recycling & re-purposing souls.
If he had refused to sell them anything in the shop including premade cakes, loaves of bread etc. that’s discrimination. However every artisan in every sort of material whether they be a composer writing a song a painter painting a portrait or what have you is free to Accept Or decline any commission. By the way my understanding is that the shop no longer make any sort of wedding cakes.
Does Jack Phillips cut his hair? His nails? Is he circumcised? Does he have any tattoos or piercings? Has he ever had a tooth pulled or his appendix out? All of these things make changes in the body that God created. If those changes are okay, why are some other changes not okay?
Cut hair? cut nails? Surgeries? The passage reads... Thou shall not defyth they temple. hair is considered an antenna to the soul by some... https://www.quantumbalancing.com/spiritualhair.htm ... Removal of parts as the FDA does is considered following the Government laws & rules. The FDA states "only a drug can prevent or cure". < --- that is defyting they temple as the need to do such implies one is out of sync w/ universal law to have bodily failure / bad luck fall upon thee. Cutting nails, a renewable item as we shed skin cells daily.
The Colorado baker may have the right to decide to make or not to make a cake. We, the people who believe it is wrong to choose who to serve or not to serve, have the right to stop him by not doing business with him and his suppliers. We all need to unite, boycott and close his business. The devil is awaiting for him in hell so he can make him a cake......
Really? The trans person couldn’t predict the outcome of their request? That person must be stupid. How come nobody is sueing Muslim bakers? If I was a baker, I’d bake for anybody that has the money honey!
So you would make cakes, lets just throw out some really outrageous ideas here?
A man or woman on the cake with a dog/horse/cow/goat/etc that says "Just married".
A cake that says "Incest is best".
One that says kill all pigs and shows a dead cop.
You would make one for NAMBLA that promotes grown men having sex with young boys?
You would make one that promotes rape?
That is all the ridicules ideas I can think of while this tired.
A private business has the right to refuse goods and services to anyone for any reason, it is private, not public and not government. If not, you don't have a democracy. In a real democracy, you can't force people to work for you against their wishes. My business is my property, same as my house, and I can ask you to leave and refuse anything you want without even give a reason.
One very important point is being overlooked. It is impossible for a human being to be concieved without the union of a human sperm cell and a human egg. Whether this is accomplished by natural process or artificial insemination.
The LGBT community needs to come to terms with this undisputable fact and get on with their lives.
Their sexual preferences and practices defy the natural order of the world. And, they still have trouble understanding why some people do not accept them and their chosen lifestyle.
Maybe the rest of us should walk around wearing T-shirts and carrying signs declaring to the world that, like it or not, we are and shall remain heterosexual. We could burst into places of business obviously focused toward the LGBT community, loudly proclaim our sexual preferences and demand service.
Then, maybe, just maybe the LGBT community would realize how they've set themselves up for so must ridicule and disdain.
Not EVERYONE in the LGBTQ community behaves in the manner that you are speaking about. STOP punishing those of us who don't because of those who do. We are as varied in our community as straight people are in their community. Stra
So what if it is an intersexed person aka hermaphrodites? That would also "defy the natural order" and they exist. What about all the questions that come along with that? If they are born with both "parts" or some anatomy of a male and some of a female...is that not also God's plan? Or do they need to be "fixed"?
OK. Now try to focus on the point I wrote about instead of putting up a smoke screen. I didn't criticise anyone regarding a physical malady or affliction. My criticism was directed at the individuals who find it necessary to spend their free time telling every stranger they come across about their sexual preferences and exploits.
I don't care what people choose to do with their significant other. However don't have to know the details of the encounter either.
If the proprietor of the bakery doesn't wish to bake the cake, he shouldn't be forced to do so by a court of law. Common sense tells me if the man doesn't want to make the cake for me, l wouldn't want to eat anything prepared by him. Plain and simple. The fact that this legal battle is still dragging on shows me that someone is more interested in their 15 minutes of fame than anything else. What's the big deal? Find another bakery... problem solved.
My fellow clergy ,
The word that we should perhaps be looking at is gratitude. For in this great country in which we live people are allowed to behave and believe as they wish, whether gay or straight, religious or athiest all people are protected under the same Constitution. There are many, many countries in the world where homo-sexuals are persecuted and can even be killed, where racism is not a dwindling issue but the norm with no possible end in sight. Yet here rather than be grateful for the freedoms that we have, we find it not enough. We endeavor to force our beliefs on others thereby hindering their freedom to believe as they will. A person cannot be forced to change their personal beliefs, they must come to that change on their own and by the realization of errors in their thinking. Let us not forget that regardless of the different beliefs and different life choices human beings make, we are all the children of the same creator and thus have equal value. And if we cannot by loving Council convince another that our way of believing is correct, we must then understand that their way of believing is something that is yet to serve them. And therefore let it be and accept them as they are, but neither side should attempt to force the other to change.
Well said, Rafael. If we all could just learn this point of view, then perhaps the incredible degrees of ignorance and bigotry I read in too many responses on this blog might not ever appear.
Reverend Rafael, my hat is off to you Sir. Well put. Your comments also are very much on a parallel course to what the Supreme Court decided. I would have just gone ahead and did the cake, but I'm not the baker. I would have just gone to another baker, but i"m not the customer. Living in our world is challenging. I often get the feeling that what is in front of me is a question to my character and how I respond or react is the answer to that question.
Rev. Rafael, I don't care if a racist or a homophobe or any other kind of bigot ever stops being a bigot, as long as they keep their bigotry to himself or herself. They don't have the right to impose their bigotry on anyone else because that is just overstepping their boundaries and rights and interfering with other people's rights, such as not being subjected to all of that. You are right that a person can't be forced to change their personal beliefs, but they should definitely be forced to keep their personal beliefs to himself or herself when those beliefs offend or impinge on other people (such as the Nazis' beliefs about Jews offending and impinging on Jews or homophobes' beliefs offending or impinging on gay people or, say, anti-Hispanic people's beliefs offending and impinging on you and other Hispanic people). Every bigot in the world can go on being a bigot, for all I and some other people care, if they will leave the targets of their bigotry alone and keep their bigotry to themselves!
I'm glad the taxpayers of Colorado have plenty of money to squander.
If I make biscuits with lard, how far will I be required to go to accommodate Muslims and Vegans?
They are just harassing this guy, otherwise they wouldn't say I want a cake to celebrate transgenderism, they would just order a cake with blue and pink or whatever. How would he know what it meant? He wouldn't. It's these people's nature to be flamboyant and in your face.. This is another sign of the extreme left trying to force their agenda upon everyone. If you want to do certain sex acts, do them, but don't try to involve others in some kind of voyeuristic way. Hetrosexuals don't do this for the most part. It's a mental disorder if you feel you have to flaunt things..just my opinion...
That is basically what I have been saying for years, I do not care what you do as long as it is not hurting me or trying to make me participate in any way.
If you want to have sex with someone the same sex, your dog, horse, sheep or goat etc go for it, just don't come telling me all about it, don't came asking me to make you a cake celebrating it, don't ask me to take photos/video of it and try to claim that since that is a service I offer (Photography in this case) that I have to do so and do so in no way makes me involved in the act your doing.
"do so" should have been "doing so".
Grace: ' . . . .don't care what you do as long as it is not hurting me . . . .' is a very SELF-CENTERED attitude!
A child running toward a busy street after his puppy. Your wife on top of a flimsy ladder. Your mother caught in the act of accidentally taking wrong medication. An injured elderly person lying on the footpath after falling. Your best friend's frequent binge drinking.
Responsible, CARING, decent citizens DO care about others' well being and take appropriate,SELFLESS action.
The Baker refused to sell them a custom made cake. He didn't refuse to sell them any other cake in the store just his custom creations. Just like the wedding cake. He don't not refuse service just his custom service. He agreed to sell them an normal wedding cake just not custom designed decorated cake. This story also doesn't mention the request people are making asking for dildos and such things on a cake. You can not force someone to build you something custom. Can I force any of you to say or do anything against your values. Those of you who perform wedding services would you eagerly perform them at a KKK rally? You provide that service so you must ignore your own beliefs and provide it for everyone right? How many here would create a custom piece of art depicting a Confederate lynching? We all have some line we won't cross. This Baker is being harrassed for standing up for his beliefs.
Well said Todd. The Supreme Court ruled on this. Why is it an issue again?
I do run a business and although I don’t always agree with other people’s choices of their lifestyles or beliefs we work for just about anyone. Are you really violating biblical teachings by baking a cake for someone? It seems to me that Jesus spent time teaching to those who disagreed with him not shunning them in horror. I was fortunate to have an ordained pastor as my dad and I know many times he wrangled with the homosexual agendas and such. However he always treated others with kindness even if they were not on the right path. It is truly our place to win others over with love and kindness not to only love them conditionally. God loves us all unconditionally otherwise there would be no grace or salvation for any of us. Just a sinners two cents
@ Mark... Do business w/ "JUST ABOUT" any one? I'm sure someday the baker will come across a few of them minorities( % wise) that fall under the "just about" part of doing business w/ any one. The micro / nano VS macro ramifications of doing business w/ 100 % of every one can be a tuff one to clean after the fact. .
Discrimination isn't always a bad thing. Change "transgender" (or "lesbian" or "gay" etc, etc) to "pedophile". What would your reaction be then??? Someone who owns a business should be able to decide who they want (or don't want) as customers. ANYONE who is unhappy with a decision made by any business owner can vote with their wallet and their feet. PATRONIZE a business who's owner has values similar to yours. Problem solved.
Everyone wants to be respected for he and she believes. Consider this. Let's say I, a gentile, went into my favorite Jewish deli, hankering for a roast beef and cheese sandwich. I know they have roast beef. I know they have cheese. I know they have bread. I have no religious reason to eschew such a sandwich, I am believer in and an advocate for, the ingestion and enjoyment of that combination. It is my right to do so. Should the owner of this deli, who believes that it is a sin to eat those foods together, be compelled to serve me such a sandwich? No. I can get a sandwich anywhere. If I want to eat in this deli, it's strictly Kosher. No doubt the baker will be happy to sell you bread, rolls, cookies, cupcakes. If he doesn't want to make a cake celebrating a same sex marriage, it is because he believes that it goes against his vision of who or what God is. There are some designers who refuse to work in pastels. Some actors who refuse to take certain roles, musicians who refuse to play certain artists, and the list goes on. Leave the baker alone. Go to another bakery. I am certain this couple was aware of this baker's beliefs and only sought his product as a means to make a point and leave this poor schnook as the scape goat. Lots going on in this world needs attention. This is silly.
@ Jack H... Exactly... On top of that... The baker has no interest in his name, work, likeness, reputation, etc boasted, plastered, smeared allllllllllllllll over copious internet sites & medias depicting lude imagery. The baker is heading THIS off at the pass. (see link) This type of visual being placed in ppls minds related to him or his work would be devistating... https://jezebel.com/ohhh-god-teen-arrested-for-forcing-jesus-to-give-him-1633189538 .
First, let's face the fact that Colorado’s Division of Civil Rights has an overt agenda to target and cause harm to any person or business which holds strong Judeo-Christian views and practices. This "commission", along with many other self described social justice people, organizations and entities; engage in extreme hypocrisy, hatred and disrespectful behavior which is not conducive to a harmonious society. Secondly, those who want to force Jack Phillips to comply with their personal beliefs or be destroyed if he doesn't, refuse to acknowledge and respect Jack's and all Christian's beliefs. It's really this simple:
So, if one could listen to and observe Jack objectively and without malice; they would clearly see that he is compliant with both God's Word and U.S. law. Jack makes and sells cakes to many people who are sinners, for he too is not without sin. However, Jack's unwillingness to condone or promote LGBTQ?? and deviant sexual behavior is a decision that he makes as a faithful servant to God and is not a pride or prejudice that he uses against humankind.
To those who target and oppose Jack and Christian beliefs I suggest that you re-examine your own thoughts and actions and seek the truth about who is really the one who is full of hate and prejudice and who is really about love and respect.
That person went to this baker knowing fully what his beliefs are. At this point it is harassment.
The lawyer asking for the cake is simply trying to make a lot of money and has targeted this baker because of his past reputation.
Can’t believe he is the only cake baker in Colorado. Is he? Sounds to me the lawyer must not be very successful and knows of this bakers past dealing with gays in the community Sounds to me he is trying to make a quick buck!
I may not agree with the refusal of the baker to provide service/products to everyone, but what gives us the right to tell an individual what they must sell or to whom they must sell. Life will have a way of balancing things and all those who disagree with his actions will not patronize him and eventually he will fail in the business practice. Or do we also tell people who are upset by his belief and action to patronize him?
It is the same as telling people what religion they must follow or they will be sued.
This later attempt seems to be more about picking a fight, and using government as a weapon, than a legitimate case of discrimination. I just have a hard time believing that the person didn't know who the baker was, and what the answer might be.
Father Fred, it was still discrimination from restaurant owners when black people went to restaurants that they knew would refuse them service (in their whites only section, anyway) in order to keep pressing the issue, expose their bigotry, and make them give equal service and equality to all who came there. It was right for them to keep "picking a fight", as you put it, because that is the only way that businesses are ever made to come out of their selective catering to just some of the public and give equal service to all, as they should. That was the point of the Civil Rights Movement and the point of this transgender person in picking this homophobic baker to go to for baking a cake, to keep pressing the issue and get him to serve all people equally. May there be many, many more such "pickings of fights" with him!
Hi John. I think you are mixing apples and oranges here in your argument. Refusing to serve someone because of their race is pure prejudice and not what the Bible tells us Christians to do. Refusing to "condone" homosexual and deviant sexual behavior is not a prejudicial act, but it is carry-out God's demand of Christians. Christians are called by God to love all and in this case that includes LGBTQ??. I feel that the baker is doing this, as he has made and sold cakes to LGBTQ?? people and will continue to do so. However, when an LGBTQ?? person or persons ask him to bake a cake that specifically promotes homosexual or deviant sexual behavior as defined by God; then he must decline, as this is considered "condoning" something that for him is a very big sin. Lastly, I would say that just because a person doesn't believe in the LGBTQ?? lifestyle; they are not "homophobic". This term and several others are way overused and most times improperly used. I don't agree with LGBTQ?? lifestyle, but I am not afraid of them and I surely don't hate them. I love them and just can't go against my faith and condone this behavior.
Bro. Chas, I'm not mixing apples and oranges because ALL!!!! prejudice and bigotry are one and from the same place: from ignorance, fear, and hatred, and you can't have any of it without having all of it!! Black people are also considered "immoral" by white racists, who believe that the black race originated from the "copulation of Cain with the woman that he found" (even though only Cain, Adam, and Eve were supposed to be alive then) and that black people live "immorally", anyway. Homosexuality, similarly, is mistakenly viewed as "immoral" because of homophobes' putting their words into God's mouth and making Him say whatever they wanted Him to say. I have been all through this with John Owens in Cake Wars: Should Christians Have to Bake Cakes for Gay Couples, and so go and look up my comments there, so that I don't have to repeat it all here. "Homophobic" isn't an overused term, when it fits, anymore than "racist" is to describe people who are against black or white or other races than their own, and "homophobic" similarly fits those who are against any other sexual preference in people than heterosexuality---PERIOD!!!!! Your actual faith tells you to love everyone as you love yourself and not discriminate or condone discrimination against them, since that, clearly, isn't loving them as you love yourself-----and just forget all of the bigotry!!!!!
Obviously, look at the history, the Baker man was targeted for his personal and religious beliefs. For monetary and political gain, Period! If I were him I would sue the S#*+ out of the lawyer lady and the city for harrassment.
He is not a public servant as are the police and the fire dept etc.. he has the right to perform work for who ever he wishes. He also has the right just as any other human civilian to not perform work for some one based on his OWN belief and religion. And should not be forced to do so. No one is forcing anyone to go to his shop or any other and buy things. Again this man was targeted because he is Christian. Period!
No, I'm not Christian. Please ground your selves, open your eyes and take a good long look around you. If you don't wake up, You will be in this Baker man's shoes soon.
What was that? The fire dept, The police, any government servant? Whatever the reason/s may be... Personal or bureaucratic. Public service personal have the right to refuse services... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwJrPa8Ps7A .
We are supposed to be discriminating, for everything. Jesus was. What makes anyone think they're better than God? Being around homosexuals makes me ill. Literally. The evil is prevalent. Sure, I feel sorry for them but they still make me nauseous, they've CHOSEN the evil. And I DO NOT have to inflict myself with their evil presence. Get close to vile things, absorb vileness.
I support Jack Phillips and his right of free speech and freedom of religion. The state of Colorado and certain groups who obviously hate freedom of religion, are persecuting this poor man, who I respect for standing up for his beliefs. This is tyranny, and nobody who loves freedom should tolerate it.
I would like to remind everybody on this board that transgender ("gender dysphoria") is a recognized mental disorder. Liberals are trying to normalize something that's abnormal to push their own agenda. These people are being exploited, along with all other minority groups. I say, end protected class status for women, LGBTQ, and all minority groups, and that solves the problem.
Any business should have an absolute right to refuse any service to anyone, without having to give a reason. Just like any customer has a right to not patronize any business he does not wish to. Yet again a liberal agency prosecuting people for having opinions that differ from their apologist attitude.
The fact that a straight white male need not consider reporting perceived persecution indicates exactly how racist the underlying policy is.
Equal rights means exactly that not special rights for the ever expanding list of minorities that majorities are excluded from.
Please read the DSM-5 and DSM-6. Gender Dysphoria is NOT a mental disorder, it is simply a condition. Conditions are NOT disorders. Let me point out that the reason for granting protected class status to any minority is that those minorities are not considered or treated as equals in our society, are targeted by criminal acts and so must be protected by specific law. When human beings finally abandon ignorance, prejudice, and bigotry, then we can think about ending protected class status for minorities. I really don't see THAT happening any time soon.
@ Steph... Wag the dog here for a moment to comment on your expression of (not a mental disorder). Actually gender-disorientation in any context can be classed as a mental disorder... https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/healthy_aging/healthy_body/the-brain-gut-connection ... AND ... https://www.sciencealert.com/cortisol-could-be-how-gut-bacteria-communicates-with-the-brain ... There are 100's of study in the past 25+ years that indicate a very close relationship between the brain & intestinal health. Invoking sensations that can make one "think" (ego) they feel a different gender than physical indications dictate.
James, having studied human brain structure, sexuality, identity, and gender for 18 years now, I must respectfully stand behind my statements on the subject.
Having studied epigenitics, metaphysical and the 2nd brain / IBS health along w/energy exchange of matter (related to the existence & progression of life) "as we know it"... I shall take a pg from your book & respectively stand behind my words as understood by "me". Mahalo.
According to The Psychiatry Online, which can be found at https://psychiatryonline.org/pb-assets/dsm/update/DSM5Update_October2017-1508425177203.pdf
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5) is the 2013 update to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the taxonomic and diagnostic tool published by the American Psychiatric Association (APA).
The Sixth Edition is still being designed and written. I am curious where you got DSM-6 from? Perhaps you are a co-author or editor of the upcoming revision?
I belong to the ACA (American Counseling Association), and used the DSM-6 extensively in my Etiology class. I cannot imagine a new version would be coming out so quickly...
DSM-5, DSM-6 (etc) along w/ the ACA. are all government run, gov controlled, gov everything & leave out 75% of the total equation of true reality. Emotional, Mental, Spiritual factors. The only main focus of government controlled "health" is "physical". Prayer is rarely taken into account in clinical studies & mentioned in citations. As the FDA states "only a drug can prevent or cure".
I apologize for being rude or direct, but it would seem that when you quote "facts" from a non-existant book (DSM-6), that you do not know what you are talking about. The ACA, which I belong to, is usually at odds with the government about many things. We are the greatest protestors that hold a valid mental health practitioner's credential against the DSM-5.
Your knowledge of current treatment is sadly lacking. The front cover of the monthly ACA Journal ran an article pertaining to the positive results that can be obtained from meditation/prayer. We are the mental health professionals who consider a belief system as an important support system required to maintain good mental health.
Perhaps you might consider reading some legitimate, main-stream Counseling literature before you open your mouth. Your comments are misleading and accusatory.
Like many in my profession, I believe that by merely repeating the same, spiritually-upward words over and over again (by reading or repeating a memorized prayer, for example) will improve one's mental health.
This is the very type of inquiry that many Mental Health scientists are conducting currently. They use a variety of an MRI that can show what electrical responses are occuring in the brain. But on a more simplistic level, you can conduct an experiment on yourself.
Try this: When you are upset, take your blood pressure. Record the result. Engage yourself completely and fully in your spiritual practice of prayer for 20 minutes. Take your blood pressure again. Look at the result. Wow!!! Guess what, your blood pressure just moved into a healthier range!
Of course, you can disagree with the results, and you can even continue passing along senseless gossip about the ACA, but I do not think you can disagree with the results of that test!
Agree or disagree, the results are here nor there related to the point of spiritual epigenitics & energy. Senseless gossip? Bet if I spoke my opinion on the ACA that was likable to readers it would be defined as acceptable & not gossip. Any one w/ a "licence" to perform is a government representatives. YES, the ACA and copious other agencies may be at odds and protest can be good or bad. It still not change much. Personal prayer, breathing etc is all OFF the books when it comes to "licences". The answer is... to not get upset in the 1st place. The laws that still permit "licences" to perform studies, tests and trials and the like are still under FDA rules that "only a drug can prevent or cure". Altho drugs do save ppls lives. Its a life style and mentality that licences, studies, citations that need to get out of studies that involve licences & gov permissions. Sincerely, w/ respect. DSM-X's are mostly incomplete and government limited. ACA's mission as we understand it. = To promote the professional development of counselors, advocate for the profession, and ensure ethical, culturally-inclusive practices that protect those using counseling services. < --- Government controlled, gov regulated, gov states what can (or not) be done to government values of professionalism. Excuse the typo. ICD-6 ~ DSM-5.
Sorry if I mis-posted this...
According to The Psychiatry Online, which can be found at https://psychiatryonline.org/pb-assets/dsm/update/DSM5Update_October2017-1508425177203.pdf
The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5) is the 2013 update to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, the taxonomic and diagnostic tool published by the American Psychiatric Association (APA).
The Sixth Edition is still being designed and written. I am curious where you got DSM-6 from? Perhaps you are a co-author or editor of the upcoming revision?
I belong to the ACA (American Counseling Association), and used the DSM-6 extensively in my Etiology class. I cannot imagine a new version would be coming out so quickly…
Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2018/08/colorado-baker-back-in-court-after-refusing-to-make-cake-for-transgender-woman/#MtKxOysj83IhHfmI.99
The thing about living in America is that you have the right to being a jerk.If his business is with those of his belief he will go out of business some time soon.
The photo which introduced this topic shows the baker's cake with the tag, "Made With Hate." So one might conclude that the editors are leaning left. The logic seems to be that if I believe something is wrong, it must be because I hate somebody. Certainly all progressives do not think this way. Some of my best friends are progressive. If I am against killing babies, then I do not hate women. If I want longer prison sentences, then I do not hate men (who are far more likely than women to be sent to prison.) If I want to keep MS13, drugs and human traffickers out of the US, then I do not hate immigrants. If I believe homosexuality, if actively practice, is a sin, then I do not hate everyone in the LGBTQ community. If I DARE to question ANY claim that a word or act is racist, the I am not a racist. Our dialogue should be fueled by kindness, not adrenaline. Who will take the high road if not ministers?
@ Rev Nancy... The image I see has no visible "tag" that reads (made with hate). Where may it be?
Willinghlam: Good one!
This male went into a hair cut place. They looked at me and shook their heads no, no, no. Claiming they only do womens hair. now is that gender discrimination or what? I filed no suit, filed no complaint, never bad mouth them. Took my business down the street.
If you say NO to my marriage proposal (said the white woman to the black man) I'll sue you for racism. A judge will take your inventory if intent.
Why cannot we forgive whoever we think is the bad guy, and go onwards and upwards, and perform the services that, as ministers, we feel are within our privy, and graciously acknowledge that which we do not feel is within the venue of our beliefs?
Humans have to assign the term "GOD" to the unknown as it gives them a form of security. Altho copious gods may be "false egotistical" gods. Just like ppl believe in the assignment of the term "miracles". Which is yet another area where humans lack understanding of the energy at play to create / permit what many call such word "miracle". The biggest problem I see is this unknown area, unknown creator of said universe labeled "GOD". Many egos want others to believe in their meaning of "the unknown". Their GOD (God = LOVE). Love created the heavens & the earths..
You stated: "Love created the heavens & the earths.."
I agree with that (according to my personal beliefs.)
There are others who appear to think that Satan is the rightful ruler of all things spiritual. I personally have a major problem with that stance, but think we need to allow for it.
I believe that if we begin to outlaw individuals or groups that the group in power thinks should be silenced, we are not allowing God to "do his/her thing."
Why? God is the one, afterall, who created Satan. Nothing can exist unless it is sanctioned by God (according to my belief system.)
Everything I ever say is "according to my belief system." I cannot believe that any belief system is sacrosanct, not even my own!
I believe that if we can just keep our focus on love, we are paying the highest homage to God.
GOD = LOVE... For mater to exist, anti mater must also. Unable to have light w/ out dark, no up w/ out down. good must have bad, right must have wrong. up must have down, in / out, love / hate, god / devil. There always has to be a counter force to all existence. w/ out motion there will be no existence. its called Yin/ yang. Adam / Eve, male / female. As in, love created the heaves & the earths & put forth life in the image of it's self. You are correct Glen, egotistical phaneron has no place in this equation when employed with a sacrosanct attitude.
Can you leave my Alma Mater out of this???
I had a very positive experience when I was there, and feel deeply hurt (using my illogical mind) when someone starts to compare it to my anti-Mater!
So, Back Off Dude! This is getting serious! I might have to challenge you to a duel. But considering the considerably chances I would be taking against a personage of your superior skills, may I instead request that said duel might be better turned into a duet?
Come on, guy, give me a break.
P.S. I doubt any of the dodoheads listening in can understand our verbiage...considering they would probably have difficulty defining the word "verb", much less "verbiage"...
Back off? LOL. I'm looking for reverse. Unsure I came w/ instructions to go in reverse... . Superior skills ? hehe. We all possess strong & week points. I'm a neophyte just as you may be.
I phyte for many things, but neo is not one of them...LOL!!!
The big bang? Maybe all forms of creation hold truth (in all or part). It is written... Adam / Eve (yin/yang) were created in the image of god (love). what does love look like? The yin/yang of creation could have been part of the ~big bang (black hole output).
You asked: "what does love look like?"
The answer to your question is really quite simple...
He is this tall, older gentlemen, with a long white beard and long white hair, who is wearing a pure white cloak. (Just to be sure you got the right guy, look for the cerubim and seraphin floating around him.)
They say that simple answers are usually the best answers...
But then, the "they" being referred to are very simple-minded beings. "They" require simple-minded paradigms to explain the unknown.
So, "what does love look like?"
Love is so multi-faceted and multi-dimensional, that it cannot be viewed from all sides at once. Babies can "see" love using a sixth or seventh sense. But as this phenomonal capability emerges and develops, human society requires that it tp become extinguished because of a mistaken belief that this skill (of being able to discern "love") is contrary to being a productive member of society. So, instead, toddlers get reinforcement of competitive behavior.
When a society teaches competitiveness versus cooperativeness, we end up with this mess we have inherited, and allow to flourish. No one every reinforced that (sixth or seventh) sense of love. I only wish I could explain it better.
Love cannot be viewed from all sides at once? How about if we are one w/ GOD (Love). One with LOVE? Thru LOVE ALL is possible. Not "all but some humans ever changing personal list of exceptions. Universal love is an energy that few humans (some have) have or will experience.
I am so happy that your comments indicate that you understood what I was trying to convey! (For perhaps obvious reasons, I have difficulty expressing these kinds of ideas.)
FYI, it appears you may have found a soft-spot in my state of being.
Now the big question that I ask myself is built upon some thoughts--(or perhaps premises?): 1.) Granted that only a tiny percentage of the human race have the capabilities necessary to experience it, but an even smaller percentage ever get the opportunity (I allude to the theories of Abraham Maslow, Clare Graves, etc.--who pushed the concept of self-actualization.) 2.) For achieving the likes of heaven, Nirvana, Buddhahood, Christ consciousness, etc. involves "getting lucky at the crap-tables of life" (how's that for a deeply profound, philosophical perspective?)
Therefore, how can we, us ministers who wish to spread some ideas about how to approach achievement in this realm, go about accomplishing that?
I look forward to your response...
Aloha Glenn. !st thing 1st... ego 101. If my client approached me & asked a similar query. I'd offer to have them read "life & teaching sof the masters of the far east. A series from Paul Brunton library and then on to other materials. IE: Standing in your own way By Anthony ???? Once one starts to know them selves & how the epigeniti energies dance in and with themselves. One might start to fathom how & what "love" truly is. On a side note. The orignal book / video of Anita Morjin "Dieing to be me", puts some words into order & employs etymology well & kinda skims the surface of how "love" is currently taken by humans on this planet.
I live in Hawaii, the home of the East/West center at the University of Hawaii. Half of the "church going" population here are Buddhists. My best friend has lived for years in India, in an Ashram, where his officially designated name implies a rank as the #2 man as the Ashram. But he completed Ego 899, and had to leave because he found the adulation as being held up as a guru was distracting to his spiritual practice.
I began my studies at a very early age, and found myself inside the walls of a seminary for two years. I dropped out, as in left I the all too holy, and apostolic, Roman Catholic church. In 1969 I took a course in college entitled "Zen Buddhism" (taught by a Zen monk who also happened to have a Ph.D.) along with a course in Chinese Civilization, studying the likes of Lao Tsu, Confuscius, etc.
My thinking, my practice, my personality continue along a path that I feel has provided me with some benefits, as I begin to realize my specklessness in the continuum of what Hawking called "the singularity."
I like using his words and example because he is arguably one of the greatest scientists of the early 21st Century. (Imagine the ideas Einstein and Hawking could have compared notes! Physics would never be the same--nor would our lives. And who knows, where ever those two might be at in this thing we can call a "journey"?)
BTW, I taught AP Math for a while at a HS Prep school, and can imagine what it will be like for some Math teacher (who would teach, but merely "mentor") of the future teaching a formula that can definitely provide a key to understanding the Universe.
So, when it comes to assigning such readings to a Counseling client, where I live, well...it is pretty simply to ascertain who is familiar with what along the lines of having broad, spiritual influences...but the Bible is appropriate as an assignment to some...
I realize I am bouncing around a lot, but you have provided so much "good stuff" to talk about...
I wish you could join me with my friend from India in a dialectical exchange...
I have a question for everyone on the blog. Why would a LAWYER who is transgender call a baker who has just spent 6 years in a legal battle over a gay cake in the first place if not to harass the baker? This should be thrown out of court and the baker should be paid for the harassment by the lawyer. I find it impossible to believe that this lawyer did not know who this baker was and the battle that he just finished and won if not to try to harass him. Now who is wrong here?
Seems that the simplest of things is forgotten here. Any business has the right to refuse service to anyone. Is this the issue of business practice or religion or discrimination. No shirt no shoes no service, seems we can discriminate against someone choosing to go shoeless or shirtless and no one says a thing but bring in religion or personal beliefs or principle and WOW it is like the world has ended.. I see this latest as a blatent effort to bring more focus and hopes to destroy a business owner and his writes to refuse service.. polical correctness has destroyed many things and caution needs to be played. If we all become afraid to speak in fear of offending someone then how do you pass the word?? I for one will speak openly and use caution in my speach but I cannot dance around worried that something may be offensive in a simple common conversation. People hide behind the descrimination and racest verbages all the time. Time to come out of the closer and live life it is short enough as it is why do we waste time fighting.
If I had a friend who needed a cake, and the best baker in town had refused simply because he or she did not like a customer, I would find my friend another and a better baker. Or bake one myself. If I had a friend (and I have , thankfully, very, very many) who identified as LGBTQ and needed a cake, and the best baker in town refused simply because he or she did not agree with LGBTQ relationships whether for personal or religious reasons, I would find my friend another and a better baker. Or bake one myself. And If I had a friend or friends, who insisted on continually challenging the best baker in town, because that baker chooses to discriminate against people based on who they are or who they love, and uses a religious stereotype as a basis for his or her discriminatory practices over something as simple as a cake...I would advise my friends to stop wasting their time dealing with a bigot and to take their money elsewhere, and to encourage their families an friends to do the same. Once the spotlight passes over, eventually that baker will not be in business. And then I will bake my friends a cake.
Scardina is a lawyer; clue number one. Her ethics should be in serious doubt when she deliberately creates controversy in order to make a name for herself, get her 15 minutes of fame and, of course to write a book and milk the speaking engagements. The courts should reprimand her, as a lawyer, for deliberately creating a lawsuit for personal gain.
Most of the commentary on this post make me ASHAMED to be an American, a Minister, a person of Faith who follows the Jesus Way. That some would imagine their personal "beliefs," ESPECIALLY so-called "ChriSSStian Faith" to be an excuse for bigotry, hatred, narrowmindedness, judgmentalness, cruelty is disgusting; I wish it were shocking. We do not need to "condone" other human beings to treat them respectfully; we need to treat equally others who have Human Rights, Rights under the Constitution, Legal Rights and the Moral Right to simply exist in our society. Why do the "Chrissstian" hypocrites believe they are, somehow, being "prejudiced against?" For the same reason that white men/people somehow "believe" they are experiencing "prejudice." AS IF God would somehow be upset that they serve other human beings, made in His own Image. AS IF we have the right to mistreat others based on how we "Judge" the mote in their eye, when "sin" is in us all (if that is their perspective), and many have "sins" which are not observed-- It is about the tyranny of the majority against a vulnerable minority. THAT is why we have government. To protect the vulnerable minority. Because otherwise, we could just have warlords.... I am a caucasian of Christian persuasion. I see that straight, white people have been using "JAY-zusss" as a weapon against their fear of "the Other:" THIS IS A SIN. I am embarrassed and deeply affronted by this despicable behavior on the part of the cake "artiste," as well as that of my "fellow ordained ministers." Such petty, hateful, vindictive, cruel, heartless, judgmental, disparaging, hubristic, uncompassionate people here. We, all of us, need to think deeply about the profound implications our personal biases have on our hearts, our relationship with The Divine, our interpretation of God's Word and Message, and our ministering to others.
Seems these days that the attack on Christians is growing soon there will be rights for Beastiality etc so we will have to add a few more letters to the LGBTQ. It will look more like LGBTQBPAZXDWFCIMJKEHNROSVYU then will it be crazy enough for you freaks
It's a big wide wonderful world!!!
So, Reverend Wayne, you are saying that the only way to avoid a "world gone crazy and completely out of control" is to just restrict people to only heterosexual activity (and even that only within Christian marriage and never before or outside of it or, as most bigots think, only between people of the same race, too, and not too widely separated in age, either). That leaves all Hindus, Muslims, Jews, atheists, different aged couples, interracial couples, and everyone else who doesn't agree with your views on sexuality still in the "crazy and freak section"!! Freedom for people doesn't mean a world gone crazy, except according to narrow and small minded people, such as yourself!!!
Someone made a key comment when referencing a custom order cake.
Believe it or not, when something is made as a custom item but does not specify every detail, leaving up to an artisan to create that product, what is being ordered can only be described as a piece of artwork. When that artisan creates that piece of artwork, he is engaging in being an artist.
When Michelangelo painted the Systine chapel, one could argue that he was just slopping a bunch of paint on the ceiling, and refer to him as a tradesman, and in today's parlance, would be referred to as a "painting contractor"--thereby ignoring any artistry in his work. If that is what some of the great Christian thinkers out there want to preach, so be it.
Art is that which someone declares to be art, and gets it accepted as such. Andy Warhol painted a picture of a Campbell's soup can, essentially duplicating someone else's artwork. Yet, his rendition was construed to be a piece of art in that mercurial place known as "the art world." So what it comes down to, is in that world of art, if you call it art, and can get at least one other person to call it art. But why not buy one of the original knock-offs in a grocery store for 89 cents, instead of paying 11.8 million dollars for Warhol's knock-off?
On the Gold Kona Coast on the Island of Hawaii, pastry chefs face off every year to make ginerbread houses. Is that art, or an activity for children? With all of the hoopla given to those contests, including huge public displays of that (gulp!) art, a substantial prize gets awarded to the winner of the coddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddmmmmmpetition, bringing great prestige to the $100 a plate restaraunts that employ these pastry chefs (a/k/a "pastry artists".)
Business owners have a legal right and moral right to refuse service to anyone....EXCEPT what is specified in commercial law. Example given: the Code of Federal Regulations, state law, local, - city or township ordinances.
A Christian must also follow the law of man. ---> as long as it does not break God's law. IF a business owner decides NOT to conduct business with an individual or group of people or organization, that decision is usually based on PERSONAL preference and desire; NOT on Biblical law or spiritual beliefs as a whole. However, often times PEOPLE are looking for confrontation and wish to make a stand ---which often entails people to TWIST the scripture and hide behind it.
The Bible is very clear on matters such as homosexuality (gay-lesbian, transgender and other deviant CHOICES of behavior).
Baking a cake does not mean the baker or business condones or accepts the behavior or life style of the customer. It is NONE of the bakers business. Just bake the cake, render the service collect your payment and go about your own life and business. How simple is that?
Now, if someone is trying to shove such beliefs and lifestyles in your face and wants to shall we say ...RUMBLE, then by all means, let the earth shake, rattle and roll as there is going to be a war to settle matters.....
A few years ago, I went to a baker in Georgia to make a cake for a Samhain. The baker in question, declined to make my cake because they were a Christian business and we were Pagans. No sweat. I just went to another bakery. If a business owner dosen't want to serve me, let me know up front. There are other places to serve me.Most of the marriages I performed were performed for couples who didn't feel comfortable with other ministers. The point is, there's always somewhere else to go. Do you really want to go to someone for a service that he/she dosen't want to perform? Substandard service or even worst, sabotage is what you can expect.
Blessed be, Andy. I agree, moving on is the best thing. People like that baker are just trying to convey that their religion is better than yours. Why bother. Folks like that live with a very limited and disconnected state of mind. They are the ones who will suffer in the long run as word gets around.
Moving on is good. But to claim. Folks like that ? Both sides are claiming the other is limited in belief and or morals. Are disconnected, etc... Whos to say; right or wrong as they both quote passages in biblical readings that are based on personal phaneron ? Who is the one to "suffer"? Most ppl are so busy accusing others of falling short, they loose sight of their own path.
"Folks like that" refers to their inability to accept others that are different from themselves. It has nothing to do with biblical BS or reality perception. It's simply being closed minded by choice, whether it's something that they have been taught, and can't get over, or something that they've taught themselves to cover their inability to grow. The religious stuff just gives them a weapon for their ignorance. So be it. Moving on is reasonable thing to do.
freedom of religion beliefs means i have the right to belief as i do and someone cant force me to go against my beliefs
So, if I am understanding you correctly, what you are saying is something along these lines:
If a 15-year-old girl, who was been repeatedly raped by her father, uncle and brother gets pregnant, she should have the right to terminate the pregnancy if she holds spiritual beliefs that the baby could be the devil incarnate--considering who the illegitimate dad's might be???
Or is it different for her if her father, uncle and brother are all born-again Chritians?
And, would it be different if the daddy turns out to be a guy from her church was also happened to be a duly ordained Roman Catholic Church, and maybe even the Pastor of that church?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this subject?
Oik, I did it... Was in Costco on Sat,Aug-25-18. Without ever hinting / mentioning any religious or personal preferences in the discussion. We asked the baker if they would make a custom cake order that was off color, questionable, or of an adult theme. They declined. Its more the product, less the customer.
Please sir, be careful of what you speak.
I am a loyal, card-carrying member of the First Church of Costco, and fear that you may be implying that they wronged you. Please do not sue my Church! I beg of you...
@ Glenn,,, We own several blocks of shares in your institution. We shall take your humble request under consideration. LOL.
I lie prostrate at your feet, singing praises to your greatness--your willingness to consider the request of a mere card-holder is simply beyond my greatest speculation...
Cx: I need you to make me a cake special order to these specs, ..... Baker: That will be $500, payment in advance and it won't be ready for 3 months because of backlog.
I have never believed that it is a good idea to piss off the person preparing your food product.
So many bakers in this world, so why get everyone's blood pressure so high.
Ok, I got it. All self-employed ppl (small bus owners / operators) can now use the "invite only" (private) operations to restrict who they wish to permit in2 their shop.
The heterophobes here are so strident!
The Baker will win this lawsuit also, for the same reason he won the last one.