A federal appeals court in Indiana settled a religious discrimination case for $650,000. A federal appeals court in Maryland threw out a nearly identical one. Both cases asked whether a public school can require a teacher to use a transgender student's pronouns. The Indiana teacher walked away with a major payday and his legal fees covered. The Maryland teacher walked away with nothing.
That Indiana case belongs to John Kluge, a former orchestra teacher at Brownsburg High School near Indianapolis. His settlement made headlines back in March. Four months later, with a different circuit ruling the opposite way on a nearly identical set of facts, Kluge's case has become something bigger: the clearest marker yet of how divided American courts remain on faith and gender identity in public schools.
What Actually Happened in Brownsburg?
Kluge taught music at Brownsburg for four years before the district adopted a 2017 policy requiring teachers to use transgender students' chosen names and pronouns. Kluge negotiated an accommodation: he would call students by last name only, the way a coach might. That arrangement lasted about a year, until several students and colleagues complained that his practice singled trans students out... cisgender students were still being referred to by Kluge using their first names and preferred/biological pronouns. The district revoked the accommodation, and Kluge decided to resign rather than comply with the policy. Then, he sued.
The complaints were not abstract. At a fall 2017 meeting of Brownsburg's Equality Alliance Club, several students raised concerns about the teacher's last-names-only practice, and others in the room indicated they'd noticed it too. Court records describe one student turning to a classmate mid-year just to ask why their teacher would not simply use his name. No one needed the full backstory explained to notice that something in that classroom felt off.
Kluge's own conduct undercut the idea that last names were simply neutral. At the music department's year-end awards ceremony, he used students' actual first names, including the names transgender students had chosen, because he judged last-names-only too conspicuous for a formal event. The classroom, apparently, was a different story. Some of Kluge's own students later disputed that any of this caused real harm, so the two sides never fully agreed on what students actually experienced.
Lower courts sided with the district twice, including a 2023 appellate panel that found the last-names-only arrangement left trans students "disrespected, targeted, and dehumanized." The Supreme Court's ruling in Groff v. DeJoy later that year then substantially raised the bar employers must clear to deny a religious accommodation, and the Seventh Circuit revived Kluge's case and sent it toward a jury trial last August. Brownsburg settled in March rather than risk a verdict, agreeing to pay the teacher $650,000 and re-train staff.
Whose Beliefs Should Bend?
Kluge's own words capture the belief behind this case. He has reportedly said that using a transgender student's chosen name and pronouns would send them down "a path that's going to lead to destruction, to hell," and that he could not, as a Christian, take part in that. His attorneys at ADF argue that schools refusing any religious accommodation are inviting expensive lawsuits, and for many conservative Christians, Kluge's fight reads as vindication of a sincerely held conviction.
But the courts that actually heard evidence in this case did not find a neutral compromise. Judges found that Kluge's last-names-only approach made transgender students feel isolated in their own classroom, a burden placed on no other student. Trans youth already face disproportionate rates of bullying, harassment, and mental health crises at school. A teacher's refusal to use a student's name is rarely just a matter of grammar to the student sitting in that seat.
The stakes here are not abstract. A Trevor Project analysis of national survey data found that transgender and nonbinary youth whose pronouns were respected by the people around them reported a past-year suicide attempt rate of 11 percent, compared to 17 percent among those whose pronouns were not. Statistically, consistent pronoun use was tied to roughly a third lower likelihood of a suicide attempt, even after researchers controlled for other factors.
Where Does This Leave Trans Students Now?
The split is already spreading. In February, the Fourth Circuit upheld a Maryland school district's pronoun policy (which requires that educator's use student's preferred pronouns) against a nearly identical religious liberty claim, ruling that a substitute teacher agreed to the district's terms the day she took the job. ULC has tracked this fight for years: we asked whether Christian teachers could be forced to use transgender students' pronouns back in February, and covered Kluge's original resignation all the way back in 2018.
Kansas math teacher Pamela Ricard's ongoing suit, which ULC also covered, illustrates further that this fight is not confined to one state or circuit. Each dispute turns on the same question: how far Title VII's protections stretch before costing transgender students their sense of safety at school. Until the Supreme Court resolves the split, expect more settlements like Kluge's, more decisions like Maryland's, and no lasting answer for the students caught in between.
Should the same Title VII standard that protects a religious objection to Sunday work shifts also protect a religious objection to using a student's chosen name? Where should schools draw the line between a teacher's conscience and a student's sense of safety in the classroom? And with the circuit courts themselves divided, is it fair to leave a teenager to sort out the answer alone?
106 comments
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Mary Handy Moore
The teacher made one statement that identifies him as a hypocrite, a Christian in name only (1 Cor. 13). That means that being called a name does not make one that name. On the other hand, a name one owns as the "self" is a genuine identity and belief about oneself. The teacher offered a lame and pathetic excuse-justification for his unwise choice not to contribute to the student going to "hell" because of his proclaimed identity. When did God give us the power to send someone to hell or heaven by decisions we make about them or the decisions they made? It never happened. It will never happen.
We don't realize it, but we have mental blocks when we become so dogmatic about gender identity because we don't know the content of what is in God's mind. We don't know the whole truth about anything we sincerely believe or think we know. We know, for example, that God made Adam and Eve, but God did not say whether he made Adam and Steve or not. If we are honest, we can admit that with ease, grace, and humility.
We can go off on many tangents about the subject of sexual identity, which in diverse ways hurt many people, including ourselves. There is one sure way to handle these sentiments about gender identity: who polices it or who makes decrees about it that stand because ... Ask God, I say, why he made people who must be born the way they are, in the genes, and who knows, even in the DNA. But God put it there since we didn’t make ourselves. We should be humble enough to consider that Luke 17:1-2 also pertains to them.
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Bruce Reed Durbin
Former teacher here: follow the guidelines set by the district, and put student's preferences in this situation above your petty views. Say a prayer for your students (to yourself) if you think that helps, and let people who are not harming others be. When did the idea of grace go out of fashion? Live and let live.
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Pastor Bobby Roy
“I believe some lifestyles go against God’s design. But Jesus taught me to treat every person — especially vulnerable youth — with compassion first. I can disagree with someone’s choices while still protecting their dignity. Jesus confronted sin, but He never used truth to harm a child. My calling is to love them, guide them, and never be the reason they stumble.”
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Lady Mutt Cat
Maybe they go against your god, but not my goddess.
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Mary Smith
Ditto That 👆!!! Not against my Goddess either 🥰
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Mary Smith
Pastor Bobby Roy, help me understand which God you are describing. The God revealed through Jesus sent His only begotten Son into the world—not to remain safely among the socially approved, but to walk beside the people religious society called sinners, outcasts, thieves, and prostitutes.
Jesus did not require people to become acceptable before He offered them compassion, protection, dignity, and presence. He ate with them, defended them from public condemnation, touched those considered unclean, and continued meeting people exactly where they were.
Yes, Jesus called people toward transformation—but He never used another person’s vulnerability as permission to shame, reject, or diminish them. So when Christians describe LGBTQ+ people as a “lifestyle against God’s design,” especially while speaking about vulnerable children, I have to ask: does that language truly reflect Christ, or does it reflect a human judgment being placed in God’s mouth?
Because the Jesus I read about did not merely claim to love society’s outcasts while continuing to label them from a comfortable distance. He walked beside them. He protected their dignity. He made room for them. That is the God I recognize. Which God are you speaking of?
Respectfully Rev-M.K.Smith
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Mary Smith
One thing I’ve been reflecting on is how important names are throughout the Bible.
I’ve seen people argue that changing your name somehow goes against Scripture. But when I actually read the Bible, I see something very different.
Throughout Scripture, names are deeply connected to identity, purpose, and calling. They aren’t just labels—they often represent who God is shaping someone to become.
God changed Abram to Abraham because He was establishing a covenant and calling him to become the father of many nations (Genesis 17:5).
He changed Sarai to Sarah as part of His promise that she would become the mother of nations (Genesis 17:15).
After Jacob wrestled with God, his name became Israel, marking a transformed life and a new identity (Genesis 32:28).
Jesus looked at Simon and said, “You shall be called Peter,” giving him a name that reflected the role he would one day fulfill in building the Church (John 1:42).
Even Paul is known by a different name than Saul. While Scripture doesn’t say God changed his name, it shows that using a different name was neither unusual nor condemned.
Perhaps the most beautiful promise comes in Revelation 2:17, where God says He will give His faithful followers a new name known only to Him and the one who receives it.
To me, that’s powerful.
The Bible doesn’t portray a new name as rebellion against God. Quite the opposite—it often symbolizes transformation, redemption, purpose, and a deeper relationship with Him.
If God Himself gives new names to mark new beginnings, then perhaps the question isn’t whether a person can be called something different.
Perhaps the deeper biblical question is:
What identity is that name pointing toward?
Throughout Scripture, a new name wasn’t about rejecting who someone was—it was about embracing who God was calling them to become.
That’s a conversation worth having.
Rev- M.K.Smith
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Charles Edward Brown
The bottom line is God created Adam and Eve. All others that came after were either a man or a woman. There is no other gender in this world. God also created the races. You are either a man or a woman, White, Black, Brown, Yellow, or Red. Of the total world population 3% identifies as lesbian or gay. 4% of the worlds population identifies as bisexual with many of these identifying as lesbian or gay. 1.7% of the worlds population identifies as asexual. 0.5% of the world’s population identifies as transgender. The remaining population which in the 90% of total world population identifies as cisgender, which is identifying with their sex at birth. Based on this information the population of the world that claims to be other than their birth sex is a very small minority and should not be allowed to dictate to the vast majority who identify with their God given birth gender.
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Mary Smith
I agree that Genesis says God created humanity. But I don’t believe the Bible teaches that God created the modern concept of “races.”
Genesis says God “made from one blood every nation of mankind” (Acts 17:26, KJV), emphasizing our shared origin rather than separate races. The Bible speaks of nations, tribes, peoples, and languages—not racial categories like White, Black, Brown, or Yellow.
Those racial classifications are human-made social categories that developed throughout history. Modern genetics also shows that all humans are remarkably similar genetically, and there are no clear biological boundaries that divide humanity into separate races.
Biblically, the emphasis is that we are all made in the image of God (Genesis 1:27) and are one human family.
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Rev Ned
Haters gotta hate!
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Shawn Hutchison
I’m not going to play along with people who are delusional by using “pronouns” you are either male or female.the rest are mental health issues.these so called “judges” need to start throwing these cases out.this country is a complete dumpster fire.
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Ben
Not too long ago this wasn't even considered a liberal verses conservative issue. It was pretty much agreed upon by everyone that you're who your biology says you are. If some guy wants to be a drag queen then by all means be so but he's still a man and I refuse to pretend like he's not.
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Leslie A. Hulberg Née Tomasura
If the teacher does not want to address the person in the way that person chooses could be detrimental to the mental health of the person being addressed. I certainly believe if the Christian teacher wants to follow their personal beliefs, they should be teaching in a Christian school. In a public school setting, there are times when one might be conflicted between their beliefs and the public school system (which allows everyone to attend) and be treated with equal respect, dignity and courtesy regardless of their belief or lack thereof. I think if you will not respect public policy, then seek a career in a company where you are more aligned with their values. If this was any company in the world, where you didn’t agree with their values and their policies regarding those values, you would seek employment elsewhere or you would adhere to those policies. It doesn’t matter if it’s a school, a factory, a real estate brokerage. If you don’t like the policies, find employment elsewhere.
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Steven Ferrell
Teachers should not be forced to recognize people living in sin. Just use last names for all students then so the poor babies don’t get their feelings hurt.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Indiana and Maryland are two different states, with two different political cultures and different laws.
Indiana, like my neighboring state have been "trumpestulent"states for years...
"Chacun à son goût".
Rtk
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Charles Edward Brown
Any State that supports Trump as President is a great state.
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Rosemary West
Everyone should just start referring to this teacher as "she". If the teacher complains, just point out that you don't have to comply with his or her preferred pronouns.
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Lady Mutt Cat
I want to know why a person with a penis can be accepted as a woman while a woman with white skin and blue eyes cannot be accepted as a black woman. I'm thinking of all of the grief that Rachel Dolezal went through. Either both situations are acceptable or neither is.
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Michael Hunt
That's not an equivalent comparison. There is no biological imperative causing someone to feel dysphoria over their skin color like there is with gender expression. Rachel Dolezal was pretending to be Black for her personal gain while transgender persons are expressing the gender identity their genes indicate. Transgender people aren't changing their gender because they're seeking to deceive people and benefit from doing so; they're displaying the gender that they feel most represents themselves.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Michael, you are absolutely wrong. Rachel absolutely believed, and still does, that she was black. You just choose to accept one and not the other. And some people choose to accept neither. You are just as prejudiced as people who refuse to acknowledge transgender people.
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Michael Hunt
Rachel Dolezal unsuccessfully sued Howard University in 2002 claiming she was discriminated against for being a White woman. It was after she lost the suit that she began pretending to be Black. This doesn't seem to be the actions of someone who absolutely believed, and still believes, she is Black despite being White. This seems to be the actions of a mentally ill person who habitually lies for their personal benefit.
Regardless, it doesn't matter if she believes she's Black or not, there is no biological reason for her to feel that way, nor does her biology back up her belief. There is, however, a biological connection to someone being transgender. It's coded in their genes and something they cannot change on a whim. There are many different scientific studies that have come to this finding; this isn't coming from a single flawed study.
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ServantOfJudgement
Holy mackerel LMC!! We agree!!
I understand your logic and agree with it.
If bruce can become Caitlyn and accepted, which he did then lets give Rachel the same. She truly believes and identified as black to this day.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Pastor Judgment! Our agreement on anything proves that miracles do exist!!! I was in touch with her a few years back. And her name now is Nkechi Amare Diallo, talk about using a person’s preferred name, but everyone knows who I’m talking about when I use her previous name. And I absolutely know that she believes she is black. I also know that she’s incredibly smart and talented. She’s simply an amazing woman. I completely understand why people with penises identify as women and people (if there are more than Nkechi) with white skin identify as black. They are simply overly attached to previous lifetimes. And goodness, I am very attached to previous lifetimes in Ancient Egypt. It just doesn’t happen to express itself as an outer change in my physiognomy.
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Vincent Paul Therrien
Comment removed by user.
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John Casillo
this issue is definitely gay
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Charles Edward Brown
This nation has caved to the LGBTQ+/Gender Confused Minority long enough. We give the Pride minority a full month but give the Men and Women who actually protect us one day. This needs to be reversed. I would much rather support a Solder, Marine, Airman or Woman, Coast Guard Man or Woman, a Police Officer, Deputy Sheriff, Firefighter, EMT or Paramedic anytime than a Gay or Trans person. Let’s be honest. God gave you your birth sex. You will always be the person you were born as and nothing you do will change that. Unless you have the surgery to remove what you consider the offending body part which most who claim to be trans are not strong enough to do, all you have to do is look between your legs and see what God gave you. Claiming to be a man when you are a woman or vice versa is simply a mental illness and should be treated.
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Michael Hunt
National Military Appreciation Month is May...
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Ari Joseph Bertine
I have Christian friends who sincerely and genuinely believe that anyone being cruel to transgender kids by refusing to use the names and pronouns that fit their gender identity is in danger of going to Hell because they are disobeying Jesus's instructions on loving one another. Jesus never said to force your own beliefs on others by making them live in fear, forcing legislation against them, and taking away their hope. He said to heal the sick, and the only treatment that heals gender dysphoria is transition. He didn't say to deny scientific findings about people's illnesses, either, and only agree with the ones that don't personally squick you out. So I can definitely see these friends' point of view.
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Robert John Hagon-Torkington
Grow up. When I was at school (UK) in the late sixties/early seventies all male students were addressed by their surname (family name) and all female students by their christian (first) name.
As a male I didn't feel intimidated or biast against as we all accepted it.
There's more to worry about in life than a name or a pronoun!
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Rev. Kev
IMO this is all just too stupid. So much whining by supposed adults about so very little. Just relax. If someone wants to be known and referred to by a certain name then what's the big deal? Are people afraid they'll burst into flames if they call someone by a name? Has this country really gotten this petty?
Get over it, folks. This is really not a big deal. There are way more important, real-life issues we can concern ourselves with. If someone tells me they want to be called a particular name then I just say "OK" and do it. Same thing with a preferred pronoun. Not my job to police their personal life choices and my life will not be thrown into turmoil for just being a decent person.
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ServantOfJudgement
A name is quite a bit different than a pronoun. Who care what someone wants to go by? The main problem with a name is if a person went by a name for 20 years then changes it. It's almost impossible to rewrite the instinct to use the old name.
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Patricia Ann Gross
A transgender person I know, changed his name in his 40s and gave family and friends a year before he would refuse to respond to a dead name or missed pronoun. The only person he gave grace, was his mother who was suffering with demential at the time. Since he now has facial hair and has always had a "stock" build, he is rarely misgendered. Family and friends quickly adapted as his appearance changed. Chaz Bono is rarely misgendered any more either. The ones who resist the most are those that have the conservative transphobic views.
When Sarah McBride took office in the House of Representatives, some who had never met her before, but knew she was transgender, took the initiative to both misgender and dead-name her. One even passed a "bathroom law" for the Capital building. Sarah had met the challange with grace, and done what she was sent to Washington to do, and that is advocate for the people of her state. She never made her gender identity THE issue, but does not have a problem advocating for their rights. Perfect balance of NOT making personal issues the main focus of public service.
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Rosemary West
It's difficult at first, but it can be done. I know several people who changed their names, not for a sex change, but for religious reasons or personal preference. Most of their friends made a conscious effort to use the new name, until it just became a habit. We used to do this all the time for women who changed their surname for marriage. Miss Jones became Mrs. Smith, and nobody complained that it was too hard.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Fully agree. I’ve never been presented with the situation, but if someone wanted me to call them by a different name or even use different pronouns, I’d make an effort. Why not what’s the big deal? But if you knew the person for a while there are going to be mistakes. Now the situation of rises ofhow tolerant the other person is towards such mistakes. How they react is going to strongly shape how I handle future occurrences. If you freak out rather than recognizing the fact that I’ve been making all these efforts, you’re gonna make an enemy.
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Robert Gagnon
Using the last names of students was standard practice in every gym or PE class I can remember as a kid. It was the way to go if you had multiple Johns, Jim’s, Roberts. If he only used last names with trans, that would be obvious. The story above only mentions one kid out of many asking why they don’t use first names. He sounded a little on the slow side to ask that. The Trevor project is extremely radical and exaggerates everything as a tipping point for trans kids. Maybe if the ideology didn’t teach these kids that not using pronouns was a murder attempt they may have a thicker skin like most kids. The world outside school is not going to cater to them, why should the school entertain a false sense of reality? It is so much easier to conform than buck the social system. But if you so desperately need to make a statement, have the grit to do it. If you’re trans and believe that’s what you are stand up for yourself and your beliefs, you’re not the only one being bullied. Take your place among all the other personalities or identities as you call them and tough it out like everyone else. Special protections end at the classroom door. Don’t fault and attack everyone that don’t tiptoe around an ideology.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Robert,
Oh how wrong you are.... Have you considered that rather than being on the "slow side" he was wanting the teacher to explain why and have it out in the open? That is advocating for self. That is calling out bias. That is getting one's identity recognized and out in the open, rather than closeted with dead names. Special protections are needed by people who are consistently bullied, not only the LGBTQIA++ kids, but those that have learning disabilities, physical disfigurements, have skin color that is not white, and the neurodivergent. Otherwise the gangs of bullies (and I include the teachers and other adults) beat them down.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I don’t think he is wrong at all. These far closer to being absolutely perfect than he is to being as wrong as you indicate. People should stand up for themselves. I have a particular strategy for handling bullies that’s not very popular. Given the legal implications it’s probably best to allow a pattern to develop but catch a as early as possible. They won’t expect you to jump on the pound the sh*t out of them. Happened much to me. I wasn’t bullied anytime after that throughout junior high school in high school. Dated a girl whose son was having a similar problem with neighborhood boys. I explained to him what to do. Other boys had to drag him off the bully. no more bullying.
And there was one case in high school where I stopped the bullying. Warned the guy and told him to stop the bullying. This one smallish kid who had allergies, wore a hearing aid and wanted to be a gynecologist. joke material for high school kids huh? “Whachu’ gonna’ do if I do?” …. “Do it and find out. Leave him alone.”
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Patricia Ann Gross
But what happens when the bullies run in gangs and they single out a vulnerable kid? What happens if the "bully" is twice the size? What happens when the victim is disabled? They are sitting ducks. You're right, it might work in a one-on-one situation, but most of the time what you describe is a fairy tale, not reality, and the one who retaliates is generally the one that ends up in juvie, not the bully.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Things have changed since I was in school. Are anti-LGBT gangs, the problem? Actual gangs? Thank the MAGAits for those I guess.
But one-on-one it works. Is there a chance of charges? Sure. Especially if the harm is ‘grievous’ in nature. Gotta’ walk a fine Venn Diagram between making sure the ‘message’ is string enough to drive home the point, going to easy and not serving as a deterrent for future occurrences and going overboard and being charged with attempted murder.
Are these gangs real? Real gangs, well, that’s different matter. Do they wear colors, have secret handshakes?
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Patricia Ann Gross
Dr. Z,
Actually bullies (including gangs of them) are very adept at hiding in plain sight. They use micro-aggressions, push kids down stairs "by accident," and goad them enough to get them to retaliate, knowing that the victim is going to be the one in trouble. Call me an idiot or other derogatory being often enough and I'll have my own temper tantrum. Yes that MAGAits are embolding them, but its not anything to "thank them" for (and yes, I know you were using satire when you said that.)
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Ari Joseph Bertine
No one is telling transgender kids to get upset over being called the wrong gender. Cisgender kids get upset at being called the wrong pronouns, too. It's a thing people universally dislike, and things that people dislike get more and more upsetting the more people that do them and the longer the behavior lasts, and especially when people say straight up they refuse to stop the behavior and then actually have the gall to mouth off at the person they're bullying and tell them they don't have the right to ask them to stop doing it. When it feels to a kid like the entire world is against them because adults, the people who are supposed to protect them from being bullied, are performing the upsetting behavior and refuse to stop, refuse to believe the kids when they say they know who they are, and there's nothing that kid can do, it is a big deal to kids. That's their whole life to them, they do not have the capacity to think ahead to how things will be after school when they no longer have to be exactly where adults tell them to be with no escape from the people who are actively disrespecting them all day. That shit causes trauma. Some do not survive trauma , especially if it's compounded with other stuff like a bad home life or other types of bullying as well. No one tells them to get depression.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Cisgender kids get upset at being called the wrong pronouns, too.????
Example?
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Patricia Ann Gross
Dr. Z,
Telling a kid on the football team, for example, "you're such a girl," because he missed a field goal. It happens all the time in locker rooms. Boys being called girls and girls being called "butch" when that is not how they identify. It is done in an insulting way, and is always taken as one. How would you feel if someone called you by a name or pronoun that wasn't how you identified? Would you even respond? When people call me "sir," I look around because I assume they are talking to someone else. If they persist and look me in the eye and repeat, "sir," I politely correct them. Sometimes they apologize, but I get the occasional, "oh, one of THOSE" responses. The short hair and stoky build does it all the time.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
There’s very little difference between the beliefs of the ‘common’ religious person and those found in the clip below. All of them are ‘out there’. It really comes down to the difference between a cult and a religion. A religion simply has more members. Whack be whack.
https://youtu.be/noKkLwSGJKw?si=CvwAZIFojtCXOraZ
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ServantOfJudgement
I was really amused by that video until something happened. You've got to believe on this one Z.
I was driving and listening on my way home when the chick went on about the power activation symbol at a stop light. Light goes green and I moved on. Then she got to the receiving code. I swear this happened... I've got two spent F16, 20mm gun rounds in my truck's cup holder. They're bass. Just as the chick got to the audio code I hit some potholes and the empty rounds started dinging together making a beautiful chiming sounds. This blew my mind.
I suddenly, and I mean suddenly had an extraordinary if not supernatural urge for a cold beer. Far be it from me to shy away from new powers so I stopped at a carryout and did what seemed right.
Two 24oz Milwaukee Best Ice.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The only evidence I have is that my father never threw anything away. So he never experienced needing some thingamabob and the ‘Man, I just threw that away last week!’ experience. I’m also reluctant to throw things away, but my living situation makes it hard for me to keep everything. So whenever I need something and I’ve recently thrown it away I feel as if I’m being punished for not honoring ‘the honor thy father and mother’. (Give you two guesses as to whether or not that’s true)
https://youtu.be/xqGWmlQAoX0?si=FTvqfh1uW8r9jBrs
“….It’s not hooked up to anything.” “….and restart him in judgmental mode.”
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Another religiously delusional whack job whining about belief infringement.
The pendulum will swing back. And pendulum swing back with equal power as its displacement. There will truly be wailing and gnashing of teeth among the mentality disadvantaged.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
This is the stupidest thing I've heard on the subject yet. My name on my birth certificate is "Miche'al" yet all my life people spell it and say it "Michael" until an English teacher corrected the pronunciation as (Mikh al) in 10th grade i didn't care, and still don't only tease people getting it wrong. So, a teacher calling people by first name offending them ... get over it people. My first name in my ethnicity of Jewish is both male and female. My last name is Scottish. (Trinity Church in Scotland to be precise, direct line of ministers in that church from 1600 to 1890). Teacher doesn't deserve a dime and students and their parents need to get their head out their butts.
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Colleen McAllister
It is quite simple. Call people by the name they prefer to be called. Unless it is a legal matter what we are called is a personal choice. Period.
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Christian
( 1=1 ) = TRUTH. In all things, seek Truth, Mercy, Grace, and Love.
If 1<>1 , all logic breaks down and fails.
The mind's rational systems may collapse.LOGOS reason thinking cognition wisdom insight understanding knowledge logic. JOHN 1 : 1 - 5 Explains God's Holy Spirit of TRUTH far better than anyone else : "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
We are commaned to not lean on our own understanding, but upon the Word of GOD. Follow Jesus to Our Father !-
Sir Lionheart
Presumably you are referring to the Christian god, right? Mankind has created so many throughout the eons of time, it’s hard to keep up with how many there are. I wonder which historian wrote the book of John that ended up in the Christian Bible? Whoever it was he never met Jesus, or even possibly John because he wasn’t alive at that time they were alive. He must have been relying on stories he’d heard. I wonder how much of it was true? It’s always interesting to me that there were no historians that ever wrote about Jesus that were contemporary to those times when Jesus and said apostles were alive. Weird…right?
🦁❤️
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Patricia Ann Gross
Sir LH,
You said, "It’s always interesting to me that there were no historians that ever wrote about Jesus that were contemporary to those times when Jesus and said apostles were alive." That's because at the time there were no "historians" in the modern day sense. People told others what they saw or experienced, and the stories circulated. Some of the manuscripts were incomplete (perhaps the scribe died before he finished it) and many were copied and then recopied by hand long before modern technology with "fact checkers" were invented. The apostles did not have smart phones, the internet, and social media to record everything they did.
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Sir Lionheart
Actually, that’s not true, Patricia. There were some very notable historians during the said times that Jesus was supposed to have been alive that never wrote about him. Most notable were:
Petronius 27-56 AD, Persius 34-62 AD, Philo 20-50 AD, Marcus Cluvius Rufus 15-75 AD, Quintus Cluvius Rufus 15-75 AD, Columella 4-70 AD, Florus Lucius 5 BC-55 AD, Geminus 10 BC-50 AD, Phaedrus 15 BC-50 AD, Titus Livius, 59 BC-17 AD, Marcus Paterculus 19 BC-31 AD, Pomponius Mela 15 BC-45 AD, Valerius Maximus 10 BC-57 AD, Lucius Seneca 4-65 AD, Hero of Alexandria 10-70 AD, Apollonius of Tyana 15-100 AD, Musonius Rufus 20-101 AD, Pliny the Elder 23-79 AD, Silius Italicus 28-103 AD, Quintilian 35-100 AD, Martial 38-102 AD.
Thanks for your reply though.
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Patricia Ann Gross
I said, "That's because at the time there were no "historians" in the modern day sense," which includes historical multiple accounts through various genres that have been preserved for posterity, including the "cell phone videos" we see today. Once again, you have led us way off topic and into the weeds. I was simply giving you an answer to a question/concern you raised.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You can’t have ‘modern day’ much of ANYTHING 2000 years ago.
They WERE historians and they said diddley squat about Mr. Magic’s son. No, the provided no video evidence of Jesus. They also didn’t say word one about your Jewish Zombie.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Yes, and Sir LH just proved the existence of Jesus with his own "counter" to my challenge to historians "in a modern day sense." My whole point was that 1700 years ago, history was primarily "recorded" by word-of-mouth storytelling, which was probably then more credible than "modern-day" eyewitness accounts because their memories were honed to retain the stories.
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Christian
Attempt understanding of AGAPE & LOGOS ?
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Sir Lionheart
For what purpose? How does you suggest that connects with my comment where I used logic and reason indicating there is no demonstrable evidence for the reality of any of the worlds gods that mankind has created?
What makes you think we are commanded to do anything by something that has no evidence of its reality?
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Christian
LOGOS & AGAPE
AGAPE IS god. LOGOS IS god.
You are looking at your entire world view completely upside down.
Meditate on "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος." and seek the Veritas you so desperately need...
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Sir Lionheart
Yes I’m aware of what you see LOGOS and AGAPE is, and I am also aware of the common biblical phrase in the book of John 1;1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
It’s certainly a beautiful piece of writing isn’t it. Most New Testament scholars—even many Christian scholars—agree that the Gospel of John was probably written around AD 90–100, decades after Jesus’ death. If that’s true, how certain can we be that it reflects the exact words or beliefs of eyewitnesses rather than the theology of a later Christian community?
We don’t have any surviving writings from people who personally witnessed Jesus during his lifetime and left contemporary historical accounts.
If someone from another religion quoted their holy book as evidence for its own claims, would you accept that as proof? Or would you want independent evidence for who wrote it and whether its claims were reliable?
Σας ευχαριστώ για τις σκέψεις σας, τις εκτιμώ ιδιαίτερα.
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Christian
God Bless You !
John 20:29
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Sir Lionheart
Thank you, Christian. I just love the wisdom in peoples writings. Some can be extremely insightful. May I kindly return the compliment and share one that I love.
"It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live."
Albus Dumbledore. (Harry Potter)
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James Richard Munro
It is the democrats that got us in this mess in the first place.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Obviously, I feel very sorry for misinformation… reality really hasn’t hit you yet, has it? Such a shame!
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Sir Lionheart
You are so right, Sir James. I’d rather be an American than a Democrat. 🤗
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Keith Ramsey
Yeah, this isn't constructive or respectful at all. Thanks again.
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Alexander Clarke
Yea, like St. Trump
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Patricia Ann Gross
Have you ever heard of Log Cabin Republican? They are everywhere. More than just the democrats are advocating for LGBTQIA++ rights.
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Alexander Clarke
They must drive the radical right wing Republicans crazy.
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James Richard Munro
It's amazing how low some politicians will sink to get a vote.
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Jeremy Cameron
I worked in a State facility and state law stated that you are required to call someone by their legal given name, I would explain that I mean no disrespect but that’s the name on your records, that is the name I’m required to use, a policy does not supersede law.
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Patricia Ann Gross
I presume that it includes any name that has been legally changed to something other than what's on the Birth Certificate. For some "legal given" can be an oxymoron, because the "given" name was given by a court of law rather than a parent.
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James Richard Munro
Jeremy, what state is that?
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Rev Ned
Some people aren’t happy unless they have something to complain about. This is true of conservative/fascist Republicans AND progressive/moderate Democrats.
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ServantOfJudgement
Pretty much Ned. Some folks aren't happy unless they're mad is an old bromide of mine. You left out progressive/moderate Republicans and and conservative/fascist Democrats but I get your angle.
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Keith Ramsey
The fascists are Republicans. Fascism is a Conservative mind set...not Democrat.
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Sir Lionheart
Hitler praised abortion, enforced gun control, controlled industry, censored speech, implemented nationalized healthcare, indoctrinated children, controlled education, banned opposing political parties, silenced churches, persecuted Jews, and he was a vegan.
Sounds like Democrats to me.🤷
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Michael Hunt
Hitler did not praise abortion. He banned contraceptives and abortion for Aryan women but encouraged it for non-Aryans because he was a eugenicist who wanted to create a dominant Aryan race.
https://alphahistory.com/nazigermany/women-in-nazi-germany/
He did not implement nationalized healthcare. Otto von Bismark created Germany’s national health care system in 1883, nearly 40 years before fascism in Italy and nearly 50 years before Nazism. Nazi Germany was opposed to the policy but failed to defeat mass sentiment, much like the Republican party today.
https://psmag.com/news/nazis-and-health-care-3483/
"[Hitler] indoctrinated children, controlled education, banned opposing political parties." Today's GOP has drastically changed education in America to minimize the horrors of slavery and racism in our country while also minimizing the contributions African-Americans made to it. They are distorting history to indoctrinate children into blind patriotism. Democrats have not banned opposing political parties and neither has the GOP for that matter, but Trump's deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller, has accused Democrats of shielding domestic terrorists and claimed there are left-wing terrorist networks with little to no evidence. In the wake of Charlie Kirk's assassination, conservatives attacked, doxed, and attempted to have people fired, successfully in some cases, simply because the person posted an unflattering quote made by Kirk.
There is only one party today that is actively courting White nationalists and anti-Semites to their cause and that's the GOP. The fact that Nick Fuentes has been laundered into their media sphere despite being a proud racist, misogynistic White nationalist and anti-Semite.
If you think Hitler has more in common with Democrats than Republicans, you're either ignorant of history and the Nazi regime or you're delusional and need to constantly view Democrats as the enemy of the state, much like how Trump views his perceived enemies.
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Sir Lionheart
That’s a serious accusation. What specific evidence shows that the GOP is actively courting white nationalists, rather than extremists trying to associate themselves with Republicans? There’s an important distinction between someone claiming support for a party and that party actually welcoming or promoting them.
Nick Fuentes has been widely condemned by Republicans as well as Democrats. The fact that some media personalities interview controversial figures or that a politician has a brief interaction with someone doesn’t automatically mean they endorse that person’s ideology. Guilt by association isn’t a reliable standard—we should judge politicians by their own statements and actions.
Would you apply the same standard consistently? If a communist, anarchist, anti-Semite, or violent extremist supports Democratic candidates, does that mean Democrats are courting them? If not, why should the standard be different for Republicans? Political parties don’t get to choose every person who claims to support them. They do choose their policies and official messaging, and that’s what they should be judged on.
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Michael Hunt
Fair point. Many of the GOP leaders have condemned Nick Fuentes, thankfully, so I retract that statement.
The point I'm trying to get at is that people such as Fuentes or Andrew Tate are being laundered into the modern conservative movement today and it doesn't help that Trump's deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller, and his Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, are White nationalists, of which there's plenty evidence to support that claim. Don't forget that Trump had Fuentes and Ye over to Mar-a-Lago for dinner back in 2022. And then there's Tucker Carlson who is or at least was the biggest voice in conservative media and he gave Fuentes an incredibly friendly interview and Trump refused to condemn Fuentes or the interview and instead praised Carlson instead.
https://www.mississippifreepress.org/trump-refuses-to-disavow-white-nationalist-nick-fuentes-praising-carlson/
It's not a coincidence that White nationalists support Trump and it's telling. They view him as the President who can fulfill their dream of a White America.
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Sir Lionheart
I think you’re still making a leap from association, to intent.
Trump having dinner where Fuentes was present, Tucker Carlson interviewing him, or extremists supporting Trump are all facts we can discuss. But none of those, by themselves, demonstrate that the Republican Party is actively courting white nationalists.
Likewise, your statement that Stephen Miller and Pete Hegseth ‘are white nationalists’ isn’t an established fact—it’s an allegation. That’s a very serious label, and I’d want to see compelling evidence that they actually advocate white nationalism, not simply that critics have accused them of it.
I also don’t think the support of extremists proves endorsement. David Duke has endorsed Republicans in the past, but Louis Farrakhan has praised Democratic politicians at various times. Neither endorsement means those politicians share the endorser’s ideology. Extremists often attach themselves to mainstream politicians because it gives them relevance.
If we’re going to say a political party is ‘actively courting’ white nationalists, I’d expect evidence such as official policy proposals, campaign outreach, or explicit endorsements—not simply controversial meetings, interviews, or the fact that extremists prefer one candidate over another.
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Michael Hunt
"Republican Party is actively courting white nationalists." I retracted this statement. Why are you still trying to litigate it?
I have already provided plenty of evidence to support that Stephen Miller is a White nationalist but I'll provide you more if you'd like. I don't think I've gone into Hegseth previously but, again, I can if you'd like.
Nick Fuentes and Ye weren't just at a dinner Trump hosted, they were the reason the dinner happened in the first place. Despite Ye's blatant anti-Semitism, Trump still thought it would be a good idea to have him to dinner. How does Trump's staff allow him to dine with an anti-Semite as well as not verify that the person he's bringing with him, Nick Fuentes, is a Christian, White nationalist?
Many of the Trump administration's policies, especially around immigration, are based on a White nationalist agenda. It's extra telling that he revoked TPS and refugee status for migrants of color and stopped admitting asylum seekers unless they are White South Africans.
I'm not forming these views because I want to believe the Trump administration is evil. I would love to be wrong about everything I've said here. Unfortunately, the actions of the administration have lead me to the conclusions I have made.
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Sir Lionheart
I appreciate that you’ve laid out your reasoning rather than simply asserting your conclusion. I also agree that Trump’s meeting with Ye and Fuentes was, at best, a serious lapse in judgment and politically damaging. No responsible leader should be giving extremists any appearance of legitimacy.
Where we differ is in what conclusions can reasonably be drawn from those events.
Calling someone a ‘white nationalist’ is one of the most serious accusations you can make. For me, that requires evidence that the person explicitly advocates a white ethnostate, believes white people are inherently superior, or openly identifies with white nationalist ideology—not simply that they support restrictive immigration policies or have associated with unsavory people.
Likewise, I don’t think immigration policies, however harsh or controversial, are by themselves proof of white nationalism. Many countries across the political spectrum enforce strict immigration policies without doing so from a white nationalist ideology. To establish your claim, you’d need to show that the motivation behind those policies is racial rather than based on border security, economics, or national sovereignty.
Regarding the White South African refugee policy, if your argument is that it was applied inconsistently or unfairly, that’s a legitimate criticism. But inconsistency or selective humanitarianism isn’t automatically evidence of white nationalism. I’d want to see direct evidence that race, rather than the administration’s stated rationale, was the motivating principle.
So I suppose my question is this: what evidence would convince you that these actions were driven by political priorities you disagree with rather than by white nationalist ideology? Because if every action is interpreted through that lens, then the conclusion becomes impossible to test or falsify.
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Michael Hunt
Here's plenty of evidence that Stephen Miller is a White nationalist.
https://www.npr.org/2019/11/19/780552636/stephen-miller-and-the-camp-of-the-saints-a-white-nationalist-reference
https://civilrights.org/resource/letter-to-the-white-house-civil-rights-groups-call-for-stephen-millers-removal/
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/18/us/politics/stephen-miller-white-nationalism.html?eafs_enabled=false
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/nov/24/stephen-miller-white-nationalist-trump-immigration-guru
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/12/14/stephen-miller-former-breitbart-editor-sidner-dnt-ebof-vpx.cnn
https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/story/us-jewish-movements-president-trump-must-fire-stephen-miller
https://www.uusc.org/the-human-cost-of-one-mans-racist-ideology-3-reasons-why-stephen-miller-must-leave-office/
The White South African refugee policy was to only allow White "refugees" from South Africa while denying such status for people of color. The only refugees allowed by the Trump administration have been White South Afrikaners who are falsely claiming a need for refuge in the United States. Whether or not it's being done consciously for White nationalism, it's still furthering the White nationalist agenda.
https://www.hks.harvard.edu/centers/carr-ryan/our-work/carr-ryan-commentary/afrikaner-exception-race-and-strategic-dismantling
If there's evidence that this just happened to be a political policy not motivated by White nationalism, please present it. If that was the case, it would seem to be be a huge coincidence that their political policy happens to align with the policy agenda of White nationalists. Again, though, please change my mind. I would love to see proof that all of these different articles are a lie.
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Sir Lionheart
I appreciate you taking the time to provide sources. I’ve looked through the types of sources you’ve cited, and I think they illustrate where our disagreement actually lies.
Most of these articles argue that Stephen Miller’s emails, rhetoric, and immigration views are consistent with or influenced by white nationalist ideas. That’s a legitimate argument to make. But an article making that argument isn’t, by itself, proof that he is a white nationalist.
To me, that’s an important distinction. I’d want evidence that Stephen Miller himself explicitly advocates white nationalism—for example, supporting a white ethnostate, claiming white racial superiority, or identifying with white nationalist ideology. Short of that, we’re interpreting his motives from his policies and associations.
Likewise, I agree the Afrikaner refugee policy is controversial and open to criticism. But a policy producing a racially uneven outcome doesn’t necessarily establish that its motivation was white nationalism. There can be other explanations—even explanations I might disagree with politically.
So I think we’re using different standards of evidence. You seem to believe that a pattern of associations, emails, and policy outcomes is enough to conclude white nationalism. I think those things justify suspicion and criticism, but not certainty about a person’s underlying ideology.
If tomorrow Stephen Miller publicly said, ‘I believe America should be a white nation,’ I’d have no hesitation in calling him a white nationalist. Short of evidence that direct, I’m reluctant to attach a label that serious.”
Can I ask you one thing? Is there any evidence that would convince you Stephen Miller is not a white nationalist? If the answer is ‘no,’ then we’re probably not debating evidence anymore—we’re debating interpretations.
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Michael Hunt
If there was evidence that Miller was not actually a White nationalist I would absolutely change my mind about him. However, he pushes White nationalist views and literature, advocates for policies aligned with White nationalists' agenda, and peddles White nationalist conspiracy theories. He may not admit to it or openly say that he's a White nationalist, but his actions align with those of a White nationalist. This evidence suggests to me that there isn't evidence he's not a White nationalist but, again, I'm open to being wrong.
The Afrikaner refugee policy is based off a racist lie that White Afrikaners are under threat from poorer Black South Africans despite there being zero evidence to support the claim. This isn't a policy that happens to produce a racially uneven outcome, it's a policy based on racism. It's based on the White nationalist agenda of making America a White nation, denying people of color from immigrating to the country but allowing White people in.
At some point, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and smells like a duck, it's not unreasonable to conclude that it's a duck.
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Sir Lionheart
I appreciate that you’ve explained your reasoning in detail, and I don’t doubt that you sincerely believe it. I also agree that actions matter more than words.
Where we continue to differ is over what standard of evidence justifies applying a label as serious as ‘white nationalist.’
Your argument is essentially cumulative: literature, rhetoric, immigration policies, and associations all point in the same direction, so you conclude that white nationalism is the best explanation. I understand why you’ve reached that conclusion.
My hesitation is that many of those same facts can also be interpreted through a different framework—for example, hardline nationalism, restrictionist immigration policy, or nativism. Those positions may be objectionable, but they are not necessarily identical to white nationalism.
The ‘duck test’ is useful as a rule of thumb, but it isn’t conclusive. History is full of examples where people drew confident conclusions from patterns that later turned out to have other explanations. That’s why I prefer to reserve labels like ‘white nationalist’ for cases where there’s direct evidence of the ideology itself, not just evidence that is consistent with it.
I think it’s entirely fair to criticize Miller’s policies, his rhetoric, and even the sources he has promoted. Where I’m less convinced is the leap from ‘his actions are consistent with white nationalism’ to ‘therefore he is a white nationalist.’ Those aren’t necessarily the same claim.
One principle I try to follow is that extraordinary accusations deserve proportionately strong evidence. ‘White nationalist’ isn’t just a political insult; it’s a specific ideological label. Before I apply it as a statement of fact, I want evidence that clearly demonstrates that ideology, rather than evidence that can reasonably be interpreted in more than one way.
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Mary Smith
Sometimes you just have to spit the TRUTH! Well done Minster 🙏
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Lady Mutt Cat
Hitler was not a vegan. Why is it that MAGAts attribute to the worst of humanity, and falsely I might add, the attributes that they themselves disapprove.
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Sir Lionheart
Yes, you are right. Thank you for the correction. He was basically vegetarian later in life but he did eat eggs, and wore leather clothing, so that would take him out of the vegan category.
Thank you for your comment, Lady Mutt Cat.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Glad to set the record straight.
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James Richard Munro
Asking anyone to use your fantasy gender name is ridiculous. Cutos to the teacher for not playing along with the fantasy name. Perfect example of parent's failure to properly educate their child, Children. Some things you get to choose, and some things you don't. Gender isn't one of them you get to choose. Pastor Jim
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Rev. Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Why?
James David Vance goes by JD without issue. I bet there are people that call you Jimmy or Jim. Corporations claim to be people, and that's okay. So, why can't 13 year old Jimmy Monroe, go by Caroline Munroe who's a girl? Show me where this concept has caused you physical harm. The world is a dumpster fire, if it doesn't hurt anyone, and makes them happy, then play along.-
James Richard Munro
Because, if you call me Caroline Munro It may impact your health. I am not a girl. I was brought up to live in the real world. Not a fantasy world. Thank you to my adult parents. You may call me Mister Munro.
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Michael Hunt
So, if we call you by a name you dislike, you'll apparently resort to violence against us? If that's the case, why shouldn't transgender people respond violently when people call them a name they don't like?
Science has found that being gay or transgender is connected to the person's biology and not a fantasy world as you claim.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6677266/
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Beverly Lokensgard
If their DNA shows they are the gender they claim, then they can be true trans. Otherwise, it is just a fantasy.
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Michael Hunt
So, I'm guessing you didn't read the study about the genes that dictate our gender identity and sexuality. It confirms that being homosexual or transgender is linked to the person's genes, not a choice they make.
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Keith Ramsey
You completely ignore the fact they they are asking to be called that, and then you directly threaten to assault someone.
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Mary Smith
We are talking about names, correct? I don’t recall the Bible listing names as either Male or Female?! Again a human decided this for us …. Who are we following here ? Scripture ? A Humans interpretation of what is male vs a female name ? Or our own human interpretation of what defines someone based off their name choice… I’m so confused here …..
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Reverend Paula Copp
Gender identity is an individual reality and other people don’t get to decide whether or not they accept it. For instance, I don’t like the fact that you portray yourself as a cisgender male, so I’m going to call you “Miss Nancy”. Oh, you don’t like that? Then don’t do that to others.
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James Richard Munro
See above comment.
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Keith Ramsey
We get it, you appear to be hateful and intolerant of others, and don't care that you stomp on their rights as people.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Says the man who signs his post with his made up fantacy name. All names are made up, usually by our parents. Sometimes we like them, sometimes we don't. I go by a nickname and not everyone knows (though most of the guess) my legal name. Our school required we go by our legal name until I was in high school. They were the ONLY ones who called me Patricia, except my mom when she was really mad at me.
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Alexander Clarke
When my mom was really mad at me she called me by my first, middle and last name. When I heard that I knew I was in deep, deep stuff.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
Gender is indeed not something you get to choose. But you also don't get to choose which scientific evidence is real based on opinion. It has been discovered that the gender of the brain can be mismatched to the reproductive system--numerous studies on this have been peer-reviewed, duplicated, and confirmed as scientific fact. Equally solid is the work showing that being transgender is not a choice, a mental illness, or a delusion. Neuroscientists, neurochemists, psychiatrists, psychologists, and endocrinologists have studied the issue for decades and they unanimously agree that transgender people are the gender they say they are and that their brain structure matches the configuration of the gender they say they are, and that the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. So it looks like the people who are living in a fantasy world are the ones who refuse to acknowledge scientific fact because they just don't like it, it squeams them.
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Mary Smith
Before using the word “fantasy” to describe someone’s identity, you may want to check the dictionary, because the two words do not mean the same thing.
A fantasy is an imagined scenario or idea. An identity is a person’s understanding and experience of who they are. Your comment treats those definitions as interchangeable, which makes the argument itself fall apart.
You are free to disagree, but at least use words that accurately express what you are trying to say. Dig a little deeper and find the correct language before publicly dismissing a child with terminology that does not even support your point.
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being kind to someone is not a hard thing to do you don't have to approve of what they are asking of you but being kind to them won't hurt you at all. it's sad when we live in a world where being kind is something people want to debate on. how about just be kind it doesn't hurt you to call joe jill or Stephanie it doesn't hurt you at all. so choose to be a better person you can't go around judging people. sp be a better person and go out and be the reason someone smiles today in a positive way and stop all this hate