An Indiana high school teacher was forced to resign amid growing pressure from school officials after he refused to address transgender students by their preferred names and pronouns. The ensuing controversy has shown that heated debates over free speech, religious freedom, and transgender rights aren't going away any time soon.
28-year-old orchestra teacher John Kluge first made headlines back in May when he publicly opposed a new school district policy mandating that teachers call trans students by their preferred names, instead of their given names. Kluge insisted that the policy violated his religious beliefs and argued he shouldn't be forced to use speech he doesn't agree with.
"I'm being compelled to encourage students in what I believe is something that's a dangerous lifestyle," Kluge told reporters. "I'm fine to teach students with other beliefs, but the fact that teachers are being compelled to speak a certain way is the scary thing."
Transgender Rights in Flux
Transgender people, who make up roughly 0.3 percent of the American population, claim gender identities different than those associated with their assigned sex at birth. The world has become increasingly accepting of transgender identities, and trans rights have expanded markedly in recent years.
However, that doesn't mean there hasn't been controversy along the way. From high-profile disputes regarding transgender bathroom policy, to the ongoing debate over gender pronouns, society still fails to see eye-to-eye on some important issues.
LGBTQ advocates insist that using a person's preferred name rather than the one they are given at birth is about respect, and not a political or religious statement. "This is not a request for advocacy," explains Sam Brinton of the Trevor Project, a non-profit working to prevent suicide among LGBTQ youth.
But the conservative Indiana Family Institute is urging residents to write to school board officials in support of Kluge. "Brownsburg School Corporation is sending a message to their best teachers that they must violate their conscience and encourage students down a dangerous path or accept termination. What a terrible way to treat teachers!" they wrote in a statement.
Role of Government
This story raises crucial questions not only about what kinds of policies we should enact, but also how they should be enforced. For example, should the government play a role in ensuring the rules are being followed? Should citizens be mandated to use whatever pronouns transgender people identify with?
That's precisely the debate currently underway in Canada, where issues of transgender rights and free speech have come to the fore after the passage of Bill C-16, a law meant to curb discrimination and hate speech. Although many people supported the legislation, others warned it could have unintended consequences.
Those concerns were realized in a now-infamous incident at Wilfrid Laurier University in Ontario. A graduate teaching assistant was accused of violating trans students' rights after she showed a video to her class that included a debate over the proper use of transgender pronouns. School officials compared her actions to "neutrally playing a speech by Hitler" and insisted that holding a classroom discussion about transgender pronouns was a potential violation of human rights.
The school was later forced to apologize and admit that it overstepped its bounds. However, the incident has been held up as proof that enforcing the use of transgender pronouns by law creates a slippery slope.
**Finding a Balance
While it would certainly be nice if everyone could be compassionate and use whatever name/pronoun others wish to be called, that seems unrealistic. There will always be those who question the status quo and refuse to abide by rules they don't agree with.
The question then becomes: how do we handle the naysayers? Say we pass laws mandating everyone respect these new norms what if people refuse? Do we write tickets? Throw them in jail? You don't need a wild imagination to predict how that could quickly get ugly.
Is there a better solution?
The disrespectful cry-baby got what he deserved. Teachers ought to at least display good manners as role models for their students to learn from. It's not something which can only be taught at home or in school, for adolescents (and everyone else),learns from everything they witness in life. Teachers have a direct impact on their students, and must be mature and nurturing, or find another kind of work. Such pouting about his constitutional rights shows immaturity, and lack of concern for the rights of his students.
Students who don't have a constitutional right to be called yadayada.
The teacher did what he was hired for if you make an exception for one child in the class then you have to do it for all then no one would get an education. This worrying about offending someone one is just down right ridiculous.
Well, imho, whenever I tried to use a different name other than my birth name, I was taken to jail as "AKA," and locked up until a deputy made his own decision as to my "real name." Why should these kids be treated any differently?
As a retired Deputy Sheriff I can assure you that giving a false name to a police officer can land you in the pokie..and your defense being that you just don't like your legal name for whatever reason, gender, etc. is not a winning defense...
You have the RIGHT to remain silent.... you know the rest.
You are not required to provide a name or identification if you are doing no crime.
You don't even need I.D. nor proof of citizenship to go VOTE.
AM I BEING DETAINED ? AM I FREE TO GO ? The only two things anyone has to say to an officer...
And no, being arrested for 'resisting arrest' recursively - that has been struck down in multiple court cases, with the Judges ruling the arrests unconstitutional (and citizens winning very expensive lawsuits against police departments, unfortunately).
But you are correct, it is very illegal to give a False I.D. to an officer. Many drunken under age students learn that little life lesson the HARD WAY.
However, it is NOT illegal to call your self by any name you choose UNLESS your intent is to defraud someone in someway.
Exactly, if you are arrested they will put down your alias as your name. John Doe, also known as Johnny D. Law Enforcement want every possible name you go by. ;) As far as the teacher is concerned, when a person says... hello, I'm John, but call me Johnny D please... and you say no, it's not on your birth certificate so I'm calling you John Doe... well, that's blatant disrespect. The teacher could have simply done what the military does and call the students by their last names. That should be safe enough...
Not sure upholding ones so called rights at the expense of another’s is the answer and I’m sure using defamatory descriptions of this man is wrong.we are too quick to demonize or belittle those who don’t agree.
I agree, Kevin. What happened to having an open discussion where all sides are discussed with respect? Everyone has the right to disagree, and surprisingly enough, it doesn’t make their opinion wrong, simply different. Maybe if parents taught their children to believe as they choose as long as they’re respectful, and the people who are supposed to represent us modeled open and honest discussion, we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in today.
So if a person stated "the earth is flat" or "we have no need of Dr.s or Surgeons only prayer" would you be respectful of their "opinions" or would you rather think they've quite a few screws loose and dismiss them outright? Of course you would dismiss them because we have medical and scientific fact proving their arguments to be false. The people who argue against transgender people are absolutely no different than a flat earther or medical denier. Medicine and Science have proved their argument false and they deserve no more recognition than any other idiot!
Would it not be nice if all the people in this world were wise enough and educated enough to be able to do the following: See the opportunity to invite the students, (and all others who you may have an intelligent adult conversation with,) to discuss without rancor where these ideas and concepts fit in 2018! No preconceived lead from the teacher/monitor, no steering of the discussion other than keeping it harm-free and clean. And everyone in the group gets equal time, no interruptions. Maybe something might be learned from all concerned since all will have a potential different input.
If you truly can jump so easily to such extrem comparisons then I think you are missing the point of the lgbtqqiaap and all other human right movements. Everyperson has the right to ones personal opinion and disrespecting them for there belebel or belittle them is Rong. A flat earther, has as much right of believe as a Christian, or gender fluad person. Demanding respect from someone is imposable to inforce. And people with such personal believes as transgenders should be brought up, and egecated anuf to realise not every person will agree with there person belebel.
Donna...you are right...the problem is that people act from their egos, instead of their spirits...if they acted from their spiritual being, there would be no attacking everything that disagrees with their egos...Peace...Tom
I wish everyone would just STOP IT. This can but doesn't have anything to do with belief in God or government. The point of having rights is to let all others ( church, government, other people) know that their rights end at my nose as mine end at theirs. These folks can call themselves whatever they want, and so can anyone else for themselves or others. What gets us into trouble is when we, as in all of us, try to find some way to MAKE someone else say what we want or wish. It is each persons choice as to accede to their demands or not; NOT the other person or governments choice. This is what it means to have RIGHTS because if one allows these people or government to dictate our speech then our RIGHTS are gone and theirs are next when someone else finds something that these others say and are able to get enough people or government to disagree with then their RIGHTS will be gone also!
There is a very simple solution for this. You call the students by the name the unrolled in school with. I have friends with Nick Name's like.. Buddha because he has a round belly. One named Possum another named Cheeseburger because that's what I liked best for lunch. The parents gave the children a name of their choosing so to speak of them by any other name disrespects the parents wishes. If the parents want the children to have a different name just go to the court house and buy the legal forms. Simple. Very Simple.
There is a difference between the free will to call someone by their preferred pronoun, and being forced. Forced language is a trait of fascism, which falls under silencing free speech.
Let's be clear, choosing not to use a preferred pronoun does not invalidate that person's existence, it is simply the teacher's right to choose whether tor not they use them.
The idea of forced language can be compared to how a religious person treats blasphemy. Our education system is predominately on the left. The left is predominately non-religious. I'd argue that the godless left has found a new form of religion, and it is called social justice. Refusing to use preferred pronouns is a new form of blasphemy.
This sounds like another one who ought to be ignored.
Some people totally twist and misconstrue religion in their minds into thinking if others don't believe the same way they believe that they aren't religious at all. Some of them even pout, call names (which are totally unsubstantiated) and have childish temper tantrums when others don't agree with them.
Actually, sir, or ma’am, you are exactly the one who is pouting and name calling because someone doesn’t agree with you. I am a teacher. And these ‘rules’ are changing on a daily basis and are being made up by adolescents in our classrooms who are vulnerable to activists and people who absolutely despise people of faith (see Dan Savage). I treat all of my students with respect and have a classroom designated as a ‘safe space’ by our GSTA. My students respect me for my heart and we can have deep conversations over these types of issues. I teach them understanding OF ALL SIDES, and we don’t resort to name calling as you have. But it is not the role of government to force people into speaking a certain way if they don’t agree. Read the New Testament and see what happens to them.
Carl, you mean like the names you used in your earlier post?
You are rude.
You nailed it Carl!
And what is the problem of supporting equality, condemning discrimination and supporting social justice??? We on the left are humanitarians, walk our talk, help those less fortunate and those who are targets of hate (kind of like the words of YOUR savior) and we fight against a religious ideology of suppression, bigotry and hatred of so-called god filled hypocrites. Perhaps discrimination should be considered fascism.
So you decide or people like you decide what's acceptable to say and what is "hate speech" and should be banned? Sounds like a textbook definition of fascism to me. Perhaps you need to educate yourself on things you seem to be ignorant of, rather than speaking from the heart. Your and your peers get to decide what is acceptable, you silence the opposition through legal restrictions and create a society where only your points of view are the allowed norm. Does that sound at all familiar to you? People like to throw fascist around these days and say someone "literally Hitler," but not 1 in a 100 seems to actually have any knowledge to back up their claims. Hate speech is one of the very definitions of free speech, just because you don't like it is completely irrelevant. Please note, I'm not advocating against people being called by their preferred name. If someone genuinely asks to be called he, she, they, or Jolly Old Christmas Fart, then that's what I'll call them. The problem arise when you have a government entity that enforces a code of speech that is punishable by law, because you open a dangerous floodgate for setting a precedent for forced conformity. Decency without dictatorship.
The point for me is more about grammar than about right or wrong based on gender identity. And I agree with your point on "forced conformity", I'm not okay with that becoming the accepted practice. I also wonder why some of those complaining use He, Him, His, when talking about Jesus, ... why do they improperly capitalize a pronoun when it suits them??
Listen here, Mrs. Gertrude Mason, you are comparing not being a total jerk to being bent to the will of fascism? And shouldn't social justice be part of any belief system worth pursuing?
Name calling. Hateful rhetoric. Shouting down people who respectfully disagree with you. Sounds like intolerance to me. I can not believe what I am reading in the comments here. I never want to be identified as a member of the ‘left’ because they obviously have no interest in civility or tolerance. God is love. Read the New Testament. Trolling here is not what Jesus would be doing.
Good point, David.
Justice does not need a prefix.
While I agree that forced language is a bad idea, I'm not sure it's a free speech issue. Free speech has to do with speaking your mind whether in print or the spoken word. For a trans student to request being called by their preferred pronoun and name, they have had a lot to deal with to get to that point. It takes guts to come out and be who they feel themselves to be. To fail to treat them as you would anyone else is unfair, disrespectful and discompassionate. For the teacher to say it violates his religious beliefs is a prime example of legalism; something we people of faith eschew.
Please note, that I am a Republican and quite conservative, but I believe that everyone has the right to express themselves as they wish. For a student to come out, publicly, as gay, bi or trans takes a lot of courage. They are deserving of the same respect and love they all of their peers receive.
Everyone deserves respect including those whom disagree. Unfortunately it would seem that the only religion not respected in the free country of ours is Christian. It offends so many that we have to hide what we belive and bend which is considered a sin in our God's eyes. God teaches love but he also teaches that y I u do not condone wro n g. These children have been through a lot an are suffering, part of the reason they are suffering is because no one love dthem enough to insist there behavior was not appropriate and see what is really wrong. No child born should be allowed to go through a trans gender stage. Efore reaching adult hood. They should seek mental and emotional help because they do not love what they already are. I am a firm beleiver that you can still love someone and disagree with what they are doing and as the parents responsible for these young adult or in this case the adult responsible we should teach the me too address the issue, not embrace changing into someone else to be accepted. The teacher is not name calling or bad mouthing them he is just refusing to condone something he believes to be a sin and being the one person, taking a risk to say you were perfect whatever way you came in this world and don't need to change. His rights are being violated by forcing him to encourage or engage in somethibg that would cause him to sin Let's also think he is a teacher and obviously loves children so he is trying to be a good role model not encouraging this behavior. If it was that serious the parents would legally change there name so the teacher had no choice.
Pffft....it's obvious you know exactly ZERO concerning anything to do with transgender people. Your post is nothing but ignorance couched in religious bigotry!
Judge much? The American Psychiatric Association has a term for this. They call it 'gender dysphoria'. You can read about it here. https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria Just because you want to call a plum an apple doesn't make it so. Someone once said that 'Political correctness is just polite tyranny.' Freedom of speech is the cornerstone of our democratic republic. When we start being reprimanded, fired or arrested for our words, we are truly lost.
Good comment, Gary.
Freedom of speech means there are no legal consequences to the things you say. It does not mean you are free of all reprimand when it comes to your opinion. An employer holds a right to fire employees when they are not following the policy and values a company has. This teacher being fired because they refuse to treat a student with the respect they’re due in the classroom is a rightful action by the school. If it is their policy for students to be respected, he should have adhered to that policy.
'kat house':No one has to be especially intelligent to recognize that the LGBTQXYZ;-ers are 'pushing the boundaries'; 'operating outside the envelope'; and trying to convince us their 'abnormality' is normal.
And they have the nerve to flaunt their disgusting behavior, as evidenced by your being 'proud' of your situation. You are a perfect example of the warped thinking of this group of misfits. You're really hurting inside, and we are to pity you and counsel with you.
Lol, how long did you and your small grey matter have to sit around and struggle to come up with that 'kat house' name, b0blf....idiot! The mere fact you are unable to use my actual name proves you are not even a worthy keyboard warrior, let alone someone anyone would take advice of any kind from. You can pity your lack of intellect, your lack of a better argument, hell your micro penis if need be, but I can most assuredly guarantee I need no pity or counseling from the likes of you or your ilk. You can take your ignorance & "pity", turn it sideways, and shove it straight up your ass, lol!?
lakesha, your opinion is quite shocking . It’s just an opinion of a very “Christian” person . Christian people like to call themselves kind, loving ,tolerant ,accepting.i see none of that here. I only see judgement ,which is often the case with many religions. It’s unfortunate that people feel the need to judge others just because they have a different belief system.Its very small minded,close minded.This world we live in today needs a huge wake up call!Listen to yourselves!That teacher was rightfully fired for shaming that poor student. Yes,shaming is what he did ,and he put his beliefs above common decency towards another human being.No ones beliefs or opinions are any more important Than anyone else’s.what that teacher did was BULLY that poor student ,by using his position as a teacher to do so.sad day ...tragic
Outing a transgender person by using a name or pronoun that they do not identify with can be emotionally shocking and dangerous. Outing a transgender person contributes to one of the highest murder and suicide rates in the world. What you don’t understand is not an excuse for being rude and placing people in harm’s way. People who are transgender are just people, trying to be their best in this world. People just like you and me. When in doubt, of what to say or what to do, be kind. Be extra kind.
Susan...i agree with what you wrote...this is not a legal or religious issue...it is an issue of respect, love and compassion for everyone, which is the way to live...any deviation from this way of living creates karma to be dealt with later, or in later lives...it is so difficult to understand why so many people feel that universal love and compassion is not the way to live...Peace...Tom
Susan...i wrote, but i do not see it...i agree with you...no matter whether a person has a particular sex, race, nationality, gender, religion, etc, the person is still a person, and to realize the most out of our lives we should simply live with compassion, love, understanding and forgiveness...anything else is ego/defensive, and unnecessary and often destructive...Peace...Tom
Joseph...while i am now receiving the ULC main page and comments, my comments do not appear...it seems we are halfway there...your additional help will be appreciated...thank you...Tom
Perhaps we should be mindful that children have vulnerable, delicate, and immature psyches. As such are very likely to be unable to recognize an adults refusal to defy ones own personal beliefs as a virtue. Instead, they perceive such acts as personal attacks they need others to protect them from (and who would refuse to come to the aid of a child?). Consider instead complying with their request, not as a degradation of your belief but compassion for their frailty.
Wow, Gilbert! Lots of leaps and bounds in your statement. "Our education system is predominately on the left" That's a pretty sweeping statement. Do you mean the secondary educational system or the higher education system where young adults learn, in college, to formulate their own opinions and try out other thought processes? "The left is predominately non-religious". Not sure how you're measuring that. Was Martin Luther King, Jr. on the left or right? Was Governor Ross Barnett on the left or right? Was Rosa Parks on the left or right? Were slave-owners on the left or right? "I’d argue that the godless left has found a new form of religion, and it is called social justice." Was Moses on the godless left when he led the Jews away from Pharaoh into social justice? Were the Nuremburg Trials run by the godless left when they held Fascists accountable for their acts? From my perspective, God never abandons anyone, even when they "render unto Caeser......" by calling someone the name they prefer, even if you don't believe in its origin.
Madison, I'm glad you have so many questions about your tribe.
I'd hoped you would be able to understand that my fact-based opinions obvious do not speak in absolutes. There will always be anecdotal evidence to counter my claims. But an alarming amount of my claims are true to a vast degree.
Leftist indoctrination starts as early as day care. I've seen crayon drawings from all the students posted on the window for all to see showing their political and social views. What does a 3 year old know about gun control or the biology of genders?
The reason public education institutes are mostly on the left are because most education systems receive funding from the government and the teachers are part of a union. This creates an incentive to promote more government control, like enforcing compelled speech.
Present day Liberalism is not the same as Martin Luther King Liberalism. In the 60s, it was better to be on the left and fight for free speech and freedom of expression. Berkeley was the home of free speech. Ironically Berkeley has become anti free speech. The left is no longer Liberal, they are tribal, culturally religious, and live by victimization and identity politics. Who was it that said "...live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."? Oh yeah, Martin Luther King.
Oh and my favorite from your response, "Were slave-owners on the left or right?", they were on the left. You cannot find one republican that owned a slave in the United States. All of those statues in the south that the left wants torn down? All democrats. Who was it that freed the slaves? President Abraham Lincoln, a republican.
HAHAHAHAHAHA.... what a moroon!
Good stuff, Gilbert. Thank you. The retards will reject it, but then, they're retards.
Says the pot to the kettle......lol!!!!
John, John, Johnnie, Jon, Juan.....while you've been cooped up in your dungeon smacking your Vienna Snausage to hot SheMale porn and conversely begging for someone to revisit this subject the rest of us, and the world, have moved on. In fact in the months time that you've spewed your bigotry and ignorance I have had a fantastic bilateral Breast Augmentation that is PAID IN FULL BY MY INSURANCE COMPANY. You know, those few people you had mentioned earlier in one of your off the wall diatribes. Remember, the few who have fallen for this craziness, such as:
EVERY SINGLE Credible Medical Organization in the US and the World in General, of which my Therapists, , Drs, Surgeons, etc, are all part of....
My Insurance Company BC/BS.....
My employer of 30 years UPS.....
My Union of 30 years The Teamsters....
My family My Friends Casual Acquaintances, and so and do forth....
And I'm positive I've left other groups or individuals out of my list, my very Very, VERY LONG LIST. But even if I haven't I'll put my list and myself up against you any damn day of the week.
So smart guy.....your move!?
Katelynne, not ONE of those companies believes any of that BS. They PRETEND to, for political reasons. Since I am not a politician, I refuse to pretend. Neither the doctors, nor the business people, nor scientists, nor politicians, nor preachers believe ANY of the crap you claim to believe, and I know you don't really believe it either.
You have allowed others to convince you of something you wish to be true but that you know is not true and then performed hideous and cruel mutilation to achieve, what, exactly? You are still a person under all that, and you have feelings, and those feelings really matter, and your happiness, but if your happiness depends upon other people pretending to go along with your dysphoria or whatever you term it, you are doomed to UNhappiness.
Your happiness cannot come from others, Katelynne. If you don't feel it inside, it just isn't there. It has nothing to do with others. If your reassignment didn't fix it, it can't be fixed by others.
I am sorry you think everyone must be convinced of what you know is not true.
OMG, JohnJohn Cecil, you truly do live in your own sad pathetic little bubble. Forcing yourself to believe such outlandish tales of political correctness and greed in order to make your assertions true; pffft, talk about a fantasy world. I'd happily provide you with names and numbers for any and all individuals or groups listed above if I thought hearing the absolute unvarnished truth would bring about any sort of enlightenment for you. Sadly I know it wouldn't bring you back from your self imposed world of ignorance that you revel in. You're definitely not winning anything!
Well, it is possible that I am slow, but I'm ahead of you.
Once again while you're living in your own little fantasy world I've had more success with my insurance company and surgeon (you know, those people who don't truly believe in this, lol) to get my next surgery and have it paid for 100%. I know I win so very much every day......my question though is how can you live with yourself being such a loser??,
They just wanted your money, Katelynne, and you were dumb enough to give it to them. I'm glad that makes you feel like a winner.
Your ignorance is now affecting your limited brain power and reading comprehension, Johnnie Owens.....as I've already stated, but will do so again for your rotted grey matter, I have paid ZERO of my own money for any Transgender related surgeries. And as I'm such a winner I'll not pay a penny for any future surgeries either. And best of all, aside of course from not paying a dime, is I know how much it eats you and all the other bigots up inside knowing there's not a damn thing you can do to stop it. That's called having your cake, and eating it too!??
That would make you a parasite. Congratulations.
Hmmmmm, seems you don't know your word definitions very well either....oh well, not surprising considering how ignorant you are concerning every other subject. Poor poor dumbdumb....must be difficult making your way through a world you just can't comprehend!
Gilbert Mason, the only thing that Abraham Lincoln had in common with modern conservative Republicans is the name of his party because conservative Republicans definitely aren't and haven't been since the Civil War in favor of equal rights for black people and women and other minorities. Republicans, no doubt, were a different sort of people in Lincoln's time than they are today and have devolved since that time, just as Democrats were different back then and have evolved since then. No doubt, there have been Democrats who weren't what they should have been, along with "Christians" who weren't truly Christians and so on in every other group in the world!! Welcome to the human race!! It was a Democratic president John F. Kennedy, though, who was in favor of civil rights and worked for passage of the Civil Rights Bill, which work was continued by his vice president Lyndon B. Johnson, while conservative Republicans worked against it or, at least, didn't cooperate with its passing into law. Should Republicans really get to rest on their laurels of past achievements and demeanor forever, even though they haven't been that way or done those things in a very long time? If Republicans even in Lincoln's time were conservative and anti-slavery and only Democrats were liberal and pro-slavery, what were the liberal abolitionists doing opposing the position and work of their fellow liberal slave-holding and slavery defending Democrats?!! "A house divided against itself cannot stand", as Jesus told us and Lincoln reiterated. Liberals couldn't have been both anti-slavery and deserving of praise for that and pro-slavery and deserving of condemnation for that because it's a logical contradiction. You can't tell me and get me or other thinking people to believe it, anyway, that there were no right-wing slave owners because thinking that black people are "inferior" and so "deserving of slavery" and that "it was good for them and their natural place" was a right-wing position, just as it was with the Nazis and is with neo-Nazis and Klansmen and white racists today. Also, you have the logical contradiction of white right-wingers and slave holders in the South during the Civil War fighting to separate from the Union and opposing the, supposedly, "right-wing" Lincoln and his sending troops to free the slaves and maintain the Union. You can't have it both ways, but that has never stopped you and John Owens and your ilk from constantly trying to do so!!
How cruel. I’d like to do your sources on your statements that schools are left and left is not religious. I believe that is a reflection of your hatred
How are my fact-based opinions hatred? Seeking the truth is not hateful. Logic and emotion are polar opposites.
Truth is hateful to those who hate the truth.
John Owens, is truth being hateful to those who hate the truth the real reason why you and your ilk hate gay people's having full equality, the same as straight people in this country and world, and refuse to admit that homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality or are you just a cantankerous old fool? Which is it?
The “left” is not Godless!
Let's review the available pronouns and possessive pronouns: He, she, it, you, your, our, their, his, hers, its. The article doesn't state what specific pronoun he was supposed to use. Now, if a dude is a dude, I'm going to refer to him as a dude, unless he's a prima-donna, in which case I'll call him Princess or Cupcake or if his name say, Carl, I'll call him Carla or Carlene or such.
As multi-faceted individuals, never seen by others as a whole, but from various points of view, we can at times be described by others with more or less accuracy, by different pronouns.
I'm kind of partial to twink or twinkie...Ok, so where were all these depressed, fragile, suicidal people 150-200 years ago. I don't believe there were an abnormal amount of suicides way back when. You know back when men were men and women were women...good old days gone forever.
Actually transgender people have always existed, and have been more readily accepted in many cultures without christian judean values. In Mesopotamia (English is not my first language, forgive me if I have the English name for it wrong) there existed up to as many as 5 genders people could readily identify as. India too, knows legally a third gender other than man or woman. The existence of people that experience gender dysphoria has never been in question. Wether they were free enough to speak up about it is another matter entirely. A teacher may hold an opinion but it is /NEVER/ a reason to treat one of his students with less respect. This includes respecting their identity. It is not up to him to decide what to call another person.
The fact that it is referred to as DYSphoria should be hint.
That you can not quit beating a dead horse, about a subject you have no factual knowledge of, is the most telling thing, John Owens, lol......talk about mentally challenged. In fact, since the last time I had the unpleasantness of seeing your craziness spread all over the internet I've had a bilateral breast augmentation. With the kicker being....
IT WAS PAID IN FULL BY MY INSURANCE!!
I don't know about you, John, but it seems all I can do is keep winning while you and your bunch keep getting pushed further and further off the flat earth map I'm certain you have hanging up in your home. And as you mentioned in one of your earlier posts there is such a tiny group of people who want this policy, and you were correct in that aspect, you were merely misinformed as to which group is mad and tiny (that'd be you) and which has more and more support and winning (that'd be me) every day!!!?
That's about the fourth time you've mentioned flat earth on THIS post, Katelynne. Can you still not see your programming coming out? You haven't won Anything. Oh, you try to smart off a lot, but you are just so much wind. You have NOTHING. NOTHING.
Yeah, you said your insurance paid for your unnecessary surgery? You don't think there are a group of crooks somewhere slapping each other on the back because you got that expensive stuff done and people who NEED medical care can't get it?
Yeah, you are a real paragon of virtue. You are just a selfish, small-minded, fake-tittied, fake all the way around person. Everyone here knows that.
LOL....make sure you read my newest reply....I'm WINNING WINNING WINNING!!! There's so much WINNING going on for myself I'm gonna need to spread it around with all my lovely Liberals.
Not so much for you and your troglodyte hoard! HAHAHAHA
Your fake arguments and fake laughter are pitiful. I feel so sorry for you. "Troglodyte hoard?" Do I have a following? How can you consider it troglodyte to recognize truth and reality rather than fantasy and myth? Civilization recognizes reality over myth. Puts me about 5 or six light years ahead of you.
Oh Johnnie, I am reality.... walking, living, breathing, and being accepted as truth and reality amongst the world. Whatever "truth" and "vapid notions" you cling to so dearly and desperately are the actual fantasies in this day and age. I'm still WINNING by the by!?
Winning a prize for stupidity.
"winning" so much that 41% of them commit suicide, and that's using the strictest, most PC definition of "suicide," not counting drug overdoses.
It's really strange. When a person with Cotard delusion says "I am a walking corpse, I've been dead for years," we don't shoot him, we get him proper help. When a person with body integrity identity disorder says "These arms and legs aren't mine, I'm not supposed to have limbs, can't someone please amputate them," we don't get out the chainsaw, we get him proper help. But when some virtue-signaling bored housewife decides to one-up the neighbors on how "woke" she is by coaching her four-year-old son to say "I'm a girl," out come the scalpels and hormone treatments that do irreparable lifelong harm.
If I were religious I'd be predicting serious consequences in the next life for such unspeakable abuse of an innocent child. As I'm not religious, I'll just say: welcome to Clown World. Honk honk!
I’m glad you already made your username ‘no one important’ because as expected your reply is not filled with anything important or factual either. Children that are trans do not get any form of surgery. They get therapy and psychologists to determine wether they are really gender dysphoric or not, and when they are they are just allowed freedom of their parents to cut (or grow) their hair and change their clothes and get called a girl or a bot etc. All the while these kids are monitored by specialists. Only when these children enter their teen years, they’re often given puberty blockers, so they have even more time to consider transitioning. This idiocy about whipping out scissors for four year olds is just that: idiocy. It only proves you know exactly nothing about what happens during a transitioning trajectory, and thus renders your opinion like your username: not important.
Speaking of 'twinkie' . . . . .You heard that a Twinkie is pregnant? Yep . . . fell off her shelf and landed on a Ding-dong!
I'm not sure how else one could refer to someone without using one of the basic pronouns listed. But as far as the student's preferred name, I'd suggest that the teacher go by the class list. if the student wants to change their name, they should identify it to the school's office, having it changed on the official class list and that problem is solved. Any more than that and it would appear that the student is simply trying to stir the pot and I wouldn't tolerate that in any class I taught.
It is a persons right to use whatever name they wish as long as it is not involving an illegal act then it becomes an alias. In highschool I had gotten bored of my first name for a time and started using my middle name. I made it a point to ask each teach to use that name. When one refused to get with the program I went and spoke to the vice principal who called that teacher in and we had a discussion about it. The teacher seemed to think it was their choice to call me whatever they wanted, and the VP made it clear it wasnt. That I had every right to use my middle name, and the needless disrespect the teacher showed to me and to the VP for arguing with him resulted in that teacher being fired.
And that was just for wanting to be called by my middle name. This teacher got off lightly as he was expressing far greater contempt to his students.
Speaking to others in a way that is meant to offend them is a sure sign of a lack of civility and social skills and both of which need to be weeded out of any civilized society. There is a reason some societies like the japanese have being polite and respectful at all times so ingrained into their cultural psyche, because during the long lasting age of the samurai showing anything but respect meant losing your head. Which is perfectly reasonable.
Either act civilized and be a part of society or be removed from it, that really is the only option.
Its really not hard, If I address someone I dont know if younger I refer to them as youngling, if older and male I refer to them as old timer, and if female then as madam. Simple, civil, and usually met with a smile from the kids and ladies, some of the old men grumble about it, but eh they are lucky we dont toss them in volcanoes at 65 as it is. One can only imagine how much better our world would be atm if that was sop.
I address all adults I'm speaking to as either sir or mam, respectively, unless I know them, then I also call them by the name they want to be called by. I also call children I know by whatever name they prefer to go by. Anything else seems disrespectful to me.
Yes, T'Keren. If you want to be called by your middle name, then others should call you by that name. Otherwise, they may find themselves fired from your group of friends or acquaintances. During later elementary school, I didn't want to be called Dick anymore, for obvious reasons, and forced people to call me Richard. It took time, but people realized at some point that I was serious about this. It is everyone's right to be called by the name or pronoun that they wish to be called by, and it is not the right of someone else to deny that right.
Or am I using the wrong pronouns to address her excellency ? She's never said what she was, and has never stated anything of which has made her seem manlier than a feminine, frivolous, flamboyant closet queen, so what else could I think ?
A better solution would be not catering to kids with gender dysphoria and instead getting them treatment!
That's a very narrow minded position. Please recognize that trans people have rights too...
Of course they do. But they are no more important than anyone else's.
They have a right to treatment for their mental illness, yes.
Do you know anyone who is trans? Mandatory treatment sounds a bit too authoritarian for my taste...
But what if they're content in their dysphoria?
You’re in luck! The only treatment for gender dysphoria is transitioning to the gender the person identifies with, which includes changing pronouns and identity! Most importantly, having people be respectful of their identity, so they do not experience dysphoria...
False. In fact, most studies show that after transition the depression and suicide rate goes higher.
WRONG FALSE INCORRECT Greg.....your information is complete crap and you know it!
Do you have reliable sources on that?
Yes, I do have sources on that. Greg is incorrect. The study often cited to back people like Greg M is a 2011 study conducted by an anti transgender activist from the Karolinka Institute in Sweden. This study shows that transitioned people commit suicide more often than cisgender people, because the only people used in the research /were/ people that underwent gender reaffirming surgery.
It is true that transgender people are more likely to commit suicide, but this is not because of their transitioning, it's because of the way they are ostracized by society. A more interesting study from the Williams Institute for the American Foundation for suicide prevention shows that for example, those who are openly transgender and have a job or less likely to commit suicide than the people essentially barred from a normal life. Those who are white and transgender, also less likely to commit suicide than those who are transgender and of a different racial background.
I have copied the following from the study:
Respondents who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those who experienced the following: — Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57% — Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school, at work, and when accessing health care • Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54% • Experienced discrimination or harassment at work: 50-59% • Doctor or health care provider refused to treat them: 60% • Suffered physical or sexual violence: — At work: 64-65% — At school (any level): 63-78% — Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law enforcement • Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement officers: 57-61% • Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law enforcement officers: 60-70 — Experienced homelessness: 69%
Now if you read this, tell me how this teacher is not guilty of inflicting actual harm upon his student. It is not the transition, it is the way people treat and view transgender people to do this day that causes great harm. They are often already unhappy in their own bodies, but it's the hateful attitude of people that is the true problem here.
One might argue, any emotional shift/decline is NOT from the gender reassignment, the depression would be more from the perpetual noxious environment and enduring incessant oppressive bigotry.
One might that is only an assumption, Bro. James, since it is scientifically unprovable.
Big false. There is absolutely nothing supporting this claim aside from a 2011 study conducted by a well known anti-transgender advocate. This study, often misquoted, contains the following caveat that is often ignored:
'It is therefore important to note that the current study is only informative with respect to transsexual persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. This is important information, but it does not follow that mood stabilizing treatment or antipsychotic treatment is the culprit.'
Meaning there can be no conclusive causality drawn between transitioning and suicide rates, because the study was only conducted on people who underwent gender reaffirming surgery, and yes /they/ were more likely to be suicidal than cisgender people.
I'm a major in sociology, mastering in gender studies, so the next time you want to talk academics mister Greg, do try a bit harder.
But you pretty much admitted there is a noticeable suicide rate. You more or less just stated you can't PROVE that it increases after the surgery. That's what tobacco companies were saying about smoking and cancer. Just an observation.
The point is there is no correlation between GCS and suicide, John Owens, as was being stated by Greg M!
The trans community has the highest percentage of suicide of any group in the country, but the percentage has nothing to do with being trans and everything to do with how the group is treated by society in general and family/friends in particular!
@ John Owens. i can smack you over the head with facts and studies all i want. Studies about how supportive family and friends take away the risk of suicide by transgender teenagers almost entirely. But judging from all your comments here, you have already made up your mind. You seem dedicated to argue in favour of a teacher disrespecting and purposefully ostracizing and mentally harming one of his students, because he thinks his religion gives him the right to decide about other people’s lives. He is a smallminded man, as are you. I’ve seen many explanations in the comment section already about the difference between gender and sex, and even the varieties found between these both in documented history and in nature. Yes, this is what science says about your precious ideas. Intersex people exist, many varieties exist in the way both chromosomes and secondary genital characteristics are divided among people. Transgender people have also always existed, with some older societies much more openminded towards this than our society. The truth of the matter is, be as it may, you disagree with any of these, it is not up to you to decide for other people how to live their lives. God will never punish you for being respectful towards another human being. Respecting someone’s identity is a part of that. It is ugly and despicable to other a child from it’s peers, especially when you are supposed to be someone they can depend on. Someone they learn from. If you are hateful in the sake of Christianity, i can only say our gods are very different indeed. And mine has a bigger heart than yours.
Here Here, Well Said Indeed, DHSocioloog!!!
Katelynn, he just said "there can be no CONCLUSIVE causality drawn between transitioning and suicide rates... because the study was only conducted on people who UNDERWENT gender reaffirming surgery, and YES/THEY/ were more likely to be suicidal than cisgender people."
So, very obviously, there EXISTS a relationship. The only thing in question is whether it is causal or incidental.
Personally, I have no opinion on that. It might be inferred, that those who are most likely to HAVE the surgery are also LIKELY (not MOST likely) to be suicidal. Other than that, one would have to compare per capita statistics to determine if the rates are higher or not, and for some reason those statistics are not included in the study.
DH, don't be a jackass and infer things not actually in evidence. I don't remember making any derogatory comments toward the student and not particularly in favor of the teacher. The whole thing is silly to me. My commentary is directed at comments, like YOURS, which are simply searching for vitriol and argument. I submit to you, that you are conceited and arrogant without cause.
Please be so kind as to point out the UNKIND things I have said in this blog. Or, just STFU.
DH, in point of fact, your little petty diatribe against me is TOTALLY unfounded. Not a little bit but TOTALLY. You just made up a bunch of crap about me, and talked about it. You are pretty self-righteous and arrogant to think you are so prescient as to glean any of the crap you said about me from any of MY comments on this article. Either you have mistaken me for someone else or you are just evil. Please read my comments and issue a retraction or you become a liar and a slanderer.
Oof, looks like I've struck a nerve. I've seen you agree with people above, tooting your approval at comments that make no sense. I personally found these comments quite derogatory:
'Let’s review the available pronouns and possessive pronouns: He, she, it, you, your, our, their, his, hers, its. The article doesn’t state what specific pronoun he was supposed to use. Now, if a dude is a dude, I’m going to refer to him as a dude, unless he’s a prima-donna, in which case I’ll call him Princess or Cupcake or if his name say, Carl, I’ll call him Carla or Carlene or such.'
'See, if “science” says a pecker isn’t a pecker, it isn’t science. I’m just saying.'
Maybe these comments are why I was lead to believe you are firmly on the side of those that seek to disrespect someone's identity. If not, I apologize, but your comments personally strike a nerve with me. Especially the one acting laughable about 'science'. You responded to a well thought out and informed comment with that. Nobody there was stating a penis was not a penis, they were referencing the fact that even when we are talking about secondary genital characteristics there is no absolute in nature, because intersex people exist. This is true. As long as there exists a variety, however rare, we can never state there are only two ways to be because empirical evidence exists to prove otherwise. In academics, we refer to this as falsifiability. If you want to prove black swans don't exist, you would have to look at every swan in the world, before being able to make that statement. However, if you want to prove there are only white swans, all you have to do is find a swan that is not white. Intersex people exist, there have been countless cases of them, therefore we cannot say that there are only two varieties of genital characteristics in human biology.
To respond to this comment:
'So, very obviously, there EXISTS a relationship. The only thing in question is whether it is causal or incidental.'
No, no relationship has been detected between these other than the fact that transgender people have a higher suicide rate period. It is like Katelynne said, transgender people have the highest suicide rates out of any lgbt group, wether they have transitioned or not. So no, we cannot state that there is a relationship between gender reaffirming surgery and suicide rates. Not too mention that that study was conducted by a radical feminist, who actively is argueing against transgender rights. (TERF, or Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist in case anyone wishes to know.) More important findings I've already cited somewhere above, but will do so again, come from a study by the Williams Institute, that shows a causal relationship between the way people are treated and suicide rates.
Respondents who experienced rejection by family and friends, discrimination, victimization, or violence had elevated prevalence of suicide attempts, such as those who experienced the following: — Family chose not to speak/spend time with them: 57% — Discrimination, victimization, or violence at school, at work, and when accessing health care • Harassed or bullied at school (any level): 50-54% • Experienced discrimination or harassment at work: 50-59% • Doctor or health care provider refused to treat them: 60% • Suffered physical or sexual violence: — At work: 64-65% — At school (any level): 63-78% — Discrimination, victimization, or violence by law enforcement • Disrespected or harassed by law enforcement officers: 57-61% • Suffered physical or sexual violence: By law enforcement officers: 60-70 — Experienced homelessness: 69%
You see being transgender means being uncomfortable with the way you are born, but also the way you are perceived. And the way you are perceived by society and family and friends is of far bigger influence than what may or may not be in your pants. So when you make derogatory comments like 'science saying a pecker's not a pecker isn't science hurrdurr' you further inflame a debate that equals gender to sex, and measures the value of people solely by their genital characteristics. It may seem silly to you, but it most definitely reaffirms people in the belief that what they are doing, policing transgender people and their identities, is the right thing.
It is heartbreaking, and it is tiring that people are so shortsighted. TRANSGENDER PEOPLE KNOW THEY ARE TRANSGENDER. THEY JUST WANT TO LIVE A LIFE AS THE GENDER THEY FEEL IS THEM. They're hurting literally nobody by just wanting to be referred to as either a guy or a girl. If we're talking about arrogance, than the audacity to believe that your religion gives you a right to decide for other people has to be waaaaaay up there with that.
On the topic of gender, I appreciate being taken seriously enough to be mistaken for a man, but I am in fact a woman.
Why does no one say 'I will fix my dysphoria by making changes to the cells in my brain' but instead say 'Consuming body altering drugs combined with cutting and grafting the cells of my skin is the cure I need'?
Hmmmmm......well, Jay, because that's what works. It's as simple as that. The experts have agreed upon transition and that's that! Oh, and one other thing......there is no abnormality concerning a trans person and transitioning has absolutely ZERO to do with sexuality!
Damn, DH!, You did strike a nerve. I take things personally when they happen to me. Does that ever happen to you? I tell people they make good comments, and you infer all the bullshit you want about me and then lie like hell? Because that's what you did, and you also cannot interpret what you read worth a damn. But hey, keep your fake opinions, regardless what the very facts quote say. BTW, do you know what a phudnik is? That's Yiddish. If you had a PHD, you could be one.
I have very little pity or patience for your hurt feelings when you’ve expressed your support to people like RMC, who seek to invalidate transgender people, and treat them as gay people were once treated in the 60’s. I get that it’s unpleasant to be confronted with how your words make you look, but this much vitriol amazes me.
Opinions aren’t fake. They’re opinions.
Lie like hell? I already cited the quotes above that you made, they’re not lies. You posted those comments, and while you may argue I misread your intentions, the result and how they came across to me remains the same. Derogatory.
Now if you want to talk about ignoring facts maybe we should talk about how you completely ignore the facts presented to you regarding questions you had about the relationship between gender reaffirming surgery and suicide rates. You rather focus on me personally and your own little vendetta. It’s flattering, but I’m here to argue about a topic, not entertain your temper tantrum. Since you can’t seem to give me a response with actual content, I don’t see a point in engaging in further conversation with you.
Give me 1,5 years and I should have my phd on Gender Studies and be worthy of the title phudnik. For now nudnik will do. I’d rather be a nudnik than a putz however. Have a great night, John Owens.
WTF, DH? "I have very little pity or patience for your hurt feelings when you’ve expressed your support to people like RMC, who seek to invalidate transgender people, and treat them as gay people were once treated in the 60’s. I get that it’s unpleasant to be confronted with how your words make you look, but this much vitriol amazes me..." YOU are the one full of vitriol, and once again, you accuse me of shit that exists only between your ears.
You think it can possibly be scientific to question whether a pecker is a pecker. That is just dumber than a rock. You can call it anything you like, but it is still a pecker. Emotions, fads, politics and even psychology have nothing to do with it.
I don't "seek to INVALIDATE" anyone, and I fail to see how you could make such a QUANTUM leap in logic as to arrive at that conclusion. Just because I didn't VEHEMENTLY disagree with RMC gives you NO JUSTIFICATION for your own demented lying attacks on me. If you or anyone else relies on denial of obvious, observable physical FACTS in order to feel VALIDATED, it is no WONDER you are such a basket-case. Truth is not emotional or radical or any of those things. It is just fact. If the FACT that a pecker is a pecker is THREATENING to you, then YOU are the one with a problem, and YOU are the one in denial and YOU are the one who needs re-educating.
As for my Carl/Carla comments, that is common among men to call each other a feminized version of their name from time to time, among men who know each other well and have fought and ridden and worked together. If you find THAT offensive, you must not be able to socialize at all. You are a poisoned minded, bitter shrew who has abandoned reason to accept the party doctrine and while I pity you, I will not give in to you at all because there are others reading who have not decided whether they want to be idiots like you who offer nothing but goon babble or real people like me who speak with an understanding of reality.
"The trans community has the highest percentage of suicide of any group in the country, but the percentage has nothing to do with being trans and everything to do with how the group is treated by society in general and family/friends in particular!"
Katelynne wrote that. How the Hell do you know that suicide rate has nothing to do with being trans and everything to do with how the group is treated? Is there a test group somewhere that is treated wonderfully to test that assumption?
DH, you are insane, petty, brainwashed, and more than a little stupid. Accuse ME of attacking YOU. Moron, and LIE, LIE, LIE.
DH, has more brain power in the tip of their pinky than you could muster throughout your entire body, John.....but then ignorance never has known how to go away peacefully!
Katelynne, if you want to pretend you are a female, you go right ahead and live your life to the fullest. If you want to insist that others indulge you in your delusion, like we might a little child having a tea party or playing super-hero, well, that's just asking waaaaay too much. As for your opinion of my intellect, you'd have to be a moron to make any assumptions there, because you haven't seen my IQ scores, but then again, you are so obsessed with trying to be a woman, that you allowed others to convince you to drastically mutilate yourself. I hope for your sake there is no reincarnation, because if there is, you will be doomed to repeat this over and over in each life until you get smart enough to accept what really are and make a good life with THAT. Oops. Too late for this incarnation.
John, it is clear from your comments are not only incapable of reading, but judging from your frequent use of capslock are also becoming slightly unhinged.
This thread was quiet for a while, but sure enough - another email notifies me you have once again responded.
Since you seem to be so lost on the things you say that you ask me to repeat them for you, I'll indulge your nonsense one more time, even though I know it is utterly pointless to attempt reason with someone like you.
To avoid confusion for you, I will put what you say in quotation marks and respond directly.
"You think it can possibly be scientific to question whether a pecker is a pecker. That is just dumber than a rock. You can call it anything you like, but it is still a pecker. Emotions, fads, politics and even psychology have nothing to do with it."
I don't believe anyone here has argued a penis is anything but a penis, yet I see you bring this up time and time again. 'science that says a pecker isn't a pecker isn't science.'
Nobody here has stated anything the opposite of that. It also is not the point. What is being argued here is despite the fact that someone has a set of genitals that does not correspond with how they feel, we can still accept someone's identity, and use the pronouns fitted to that identity. What is being argued here, is that gender, (note that I said gender, and not sex) has not been as set in stone throughout history as you and others may believe it to be. What is argued is that even biologically, there are intersex people who have diverging secondary genital characteristics.
For example, an intersex person may have all the biological characteristics of a woman, and yet have an x and y chromosome. There are countless documented cases of this, and it is in this discussion being used as an example to show that even those who want to argue in black and white biological facts against the fact we should respect the identity of transgender people comes up lacking conclusive proof.
Nobody here has said a 'pecker isn't a pecker' as you so eloquently put it, and yet you keep stomping your feet and insisting on it.
John Owens, I am beginning to question what you have in your pants. Perhaps you find it lacking and this is your way to comfort yourself.
Moving on to this glorious comment of yours:
"I don’t “seek to INVALIDATE” anyone, and I fail to see how you could make such a QUANTUM leap in logic as to arrive at that conclusion. Just because I didn’t VEHEMENTLY disagree with RMC gives you NO JUSTIFICATION for your own demented lying attacks on me. If you or anyone else relies on denial of obvious, observable physical FACTS in order to feel VALIDATED, it is no WONDER you are such a basket-case. Truth is not emotional or radical or any of those things. It is just fact. If the FACT that a pecker is a pecker is THREATENING to you, then YOU are the one with a problem, and YOU are the one in denial and YOU are the one who needs re-educating."
Directly after this, you said the following to Katelynne:
"July 3, 2018 at 3:44 pm Katelynne, if you want to pretend you are a female, you go right ahead and live your life to the fullest. If you want to insist that others indulge you in your delusion, like we might a little child having a tea party or playing super-hero, well, that’s just asking waaaaay too much. As for your opinion of my intellect, you’d have to be a moron to make any assumptions there, because you haven’t seen my IQ scores, but then again, you are so obsessed with trying to be a woman, that you allowed others to convince you to drastically mutilate yourself."
If you don't think treating her like this, and telling her she is deluded and that she isn't a woman is invalidating, I think the only one in need of education is you.
When you refuse to accept a person's truth about themselves, and their identity, you invalidate them.
You are so desperate and adamant to say I am the one lying when really, all of this is quoted and taken directly from the things you say.
You may stomp your feet and shout about truth and facts all you want John, but the one lacking in actual scientific sources is you. The only one who seems threatened by the truth is you, because this cold hard science you cling to in order to justify you misgendering trans people does not exist.
Call me a liar all you will, your intolerant drivel is all over this comment section.
So let me get this straight, DH-- You claim to adhere to fact and studies and all that , yet, because I say the truth to Katelynne about his/her x and y chromosomes and won't participate and pretend to believe he/she is a woman, THAT I AM A HATER? How can someone who pretends to love facts, be so ignorant and deceptive as to go along with an adult who pretends to be the exact opposite of what they are?
I am certainly not the one with a mental problem, a social problem, an intellectual problem, or a lack of compassion here. That would be YOU.
It is not intolerant to speak the truth. Tolerance means not oppressing and not killing and not ridiculing someone. It does not mean tolerating bullshit from someone. Katelynne dished it out, Katelynne can take it. You are being stupid and self-righteous.
>"I'm a major in sociology, mastering in gender studies"
Have you picked out which Starbucks you want to work at yet?
You're correct, Greg!
Is your statement coming from a place of love or a place of fear?
Red- you prob should have just left off at "A better solution would be not catering to kids." That would have been more than sufficient.
Better yet Red, how about you get yourself educated about gender dysphoria!
Because Jay, my dude - no such thing exist. ‘Let me alter my brain cells real quick.’ Didn’t know we had access to that technology yet. Fucking wild. Let’s change it in the womb shall we. No more gay people. No more transgender people. Only blue eyed, blonde straight boys and girls from now on. Let’s change all the deviations. Instead of liberating disparaged groups, let’s just make them part of the mold. Heck, just change the dna of black people to be white people then we don’t have to combat racism anymore. It can’t possible be society that’s the problem after all!
Anne...you are touching on a new area of "science"...look up "crispr"; you will see information on companies that are rushing to get patents on gene-editing...they start by talking about combating diseases, but it will clearly become a much bigger issue (Aryan Race, etc)...Peace...Tom
This month is the first time the neurological condition that allows alcoholism to exist had been found. Cure to follow? Sure it won't be easy but it also seems like no one is even trying. I don't think the answer will be gene modification after certain age it all comes down to structure and brain mapping.
How can you write an article about pronouns and names causing a teacher to lose their job and not include what the particular words are?
I was just thinking the same thing. Glad I am not the only one who spotted it.
I feel that if a teacher with stated prejudices of any kind is allowed to stay in a classroom, parents and students should have the unquestioned right to change to a different teacher. No child should be forced to stay in a classroom with a teacher who does not respect them.
There is only one question to ask. Do your thoughts and actions come from a place of love or a place of fear?
Children in a classroom with a teacher with stated bigotries should have the unquestioned right to move to a different teacher. No child can learn in am atmosphere where they are not rspected and even openly critized for who they are.
If someone can choose to be called a boy/girl/man/woman based on what they "identify" as, shouldn't a person have the right (not sure that's the right word) to refer to them as they see them? If you identify as someone other than what you were born as, why can't I refer to you as what I identify you as?
Does that make sense?
I don't want to judge. Just asking.
That does NOT makes sense. I won't call you Stephen because I feel you LOOK more like a Stephen than a Joe. I'm afraid that your comment shows that you don't get it.
Glad you didn't understand.....
I have the answer...Make them all wear signs that designate them as whatever they are or pretend to be for the attention, or choose to be just to be different. Funny that these issues were unheard of for the past 250 years...
Funny how that statement is based on absolutely zero facts. Transgender people have always existed, as have other lgbt people. The fact that historians, influenced by judean christian values erased the identity of these lgbt people from the history books is what truly needs to be lamented. There are tombs from ancient Egypt, clay tablets from Mesopotamia describing the existence of transgender people - even people that did not identify within the gender binary. To say this is a new thing is nonsense. The only thing that is new is the fact our society has only recently become liberated enough for these people to speak up openly.
Hmmm...guess we should first define 'transgender'. It seems that a real, true transgender would have to undergo serious surgical procedures to accomplish that. Don't think they had that technology back then. But, for the record, if someone puts themselves through that series of operations to 'truly' become transgender, I'll have the utmost respect for them and gladly call them by whatever name they prefer. As for the other 'posers, pretenders, attention hogs, and gutless wannabees' they can kiss it.
Gary, this is yet another one of your comments that demonstrate a lack of knowledge on the subject, but allow me to clear some things up. 1) A person is not ‘a transgender.’ Transgender is an adjective, not a noun, derived from the ancient Greek meaning of trans, or opposite the spectrum. Someone is a transgender person when they identify with the gender opposite of the biological characteristics they were born with. Someone is transgender when they suffer from gender dysphoria, nót because they start transitioning.
2) One does not transition to ‘become truly transgender’ as you so tactlessly put it. Transitioning to the gender a person identifies with is the only known treatment for experiencing gender dysphoria. This process can be a long and arduous road. There are several psychological evaluations, doctors appointments and months and months of waitlists involved. Even people who are unable to start their transition due to medical issues, or perhaps are not old enough to do so - deserve to have their identities respected.
3) Back in those days perhaps there were no operations available as we know them now, but people seemed to have more decency in respecting someone’s identity. Societal acceptance and perception are of more influence to how somebody is feeling than what is or isn’t respectively in their trousers. I could have undergone all gender reaffirming surgeries known to modern medicine, but it would mean absolutely nothing if everybody still insisted on calling me by the pronouns I don’t identify with. 4) Being transgender is tough. Bigotry and ignorance is everywhere. On top of feeling insecure and rejecting your own body there is society debating your human rights and right to existence at every turn. To assume anyone would do it for the fun of it shows a gross contempt for the oppression faced by transgender people. You don’t get to decide for other people wether or not they are ‘truly transgender.’
I used to work at a plasma center, and one of the donors insisted on calling me Stephen. I would correct her, but she insisted I didn't look like a Chris, I looked like a Stephen and that's what she was going to call me. I wasn't offended, but most of the time I wouldn't respond to her unless she used the name I wanted to be called.
The problem with calling someone as we see them rather than what they prefer to be identified as is this argument can be used by bullies. "I see this person as female rather than male so I'm going to call him a female name even if that's not how he identifies." It can also be misused by those intent on causing harm. "Today I feel like being a female so I'm going to use the girl's locker room so I can see all the 'other' girls naked!" (both of these examples were provided to me by a former coworker who felt much the way the teacher in this article does)
I don't see the harm in referring to a boy as She if that's what she chooses to be identified as. It's not harming anyone. Transgender people are simply trying to live their own lives on their own terms and be who they feel they are. It's the same thing every other person in the world wants. Some of them may change their minds later on, some may go back into hiding due to pressure from peers, but that doesn't make them any less of a person. Being rude to them simply because you don't like how they live their lives is unnecessary. Using religion as an excuse is cowardly. There is no harm in being accepting, or at the very least polite to these kids.
I'm not judging you or calling you out specifically, Joe. I'm just answering your question. It's a matter of civility, of manners.
[Aside] Shall I hear more, or shall I speak at this?
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy; Thou art thyself, though not a Montague. What's Montague? It is nor hand, nor foot, Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part Belonging to a man. O, be some other name! What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other word would smell as sweet; So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd, Retain that dear perfection which he owes Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name, And for that name which is no part of thee Take all myself.
I take thee at thy word: Call me but love, and I'll be new baptized; Henceforth I never will be Romeo.
Tolerance does not extend to intolerance.....the bigoted piece of crap got what he deserved!
So many times I see posts like this and want to share whatever wisdom I can about the importance of being respectful and responsible towards yourself and those around you. These words often fall on deaf ears and it becomes tiresome. Be kind. If you can't be kind; shut up.
I think we make simple things too complicated. If a person wants to be called horse, call them horse. It's no different than a person named William being called Bill. Bill is not their name, but the person prefers it. The problem starts when we distract from the reason the students were there; to learn. If the teacher distracts from the student's education, they are wrong. If the student distracts from the other student's education, they too are wrong. If we keep the main thing, the main thing and not put our individual or collectives political views into it, everything will be okay. Bigotry is always the manifestation of fear. Cowards always attack what they do not understand and fear it may possibly manifest within themselves. When you know and are secure with who you are, you can accept others.
It is my humble thought that our place here in this realm is not to lend judgement on one another nor the path each the other chooses to tread. Each individual is entitled to choose their moccasins and the path that best suits their wear. Some choose open toe, some closed, some are beaded brightly, some plain, some are ankle high, others to the knees or higher. Some paths are dry and arid, some marshy, some are forested and others not, some paths are curved and some are straight. some are filled with hill and mountains, others flat. Most are many combinations of all of the above. Not a single person here can rightly or honestly say they know the sum of anothers path, already trodden or that that remains for them to travel. How then can any of us look to another's choice in moccasins and judge the adequacy of the fit for their need? The honest answer is that we can't. Judging others is a fruitless and wasteful expense of both time and energy. Judge not that which is not yours to judge. Help where help is needed, accepted, asked, and appreciated and be tolerant and kind or silent where it isn't. Such are the teachings of many religious texts, written in many languages throughout our small world.
He is a teacher in a school. Therefore he is an employee. When you go to work you leave things like freedom of expression and freedom of religion at the front door. When you are on the clock you represent your employer and you exhibit the values and policies of your employer. They don't have to be yours, but by accepting employment you have agreed to do this thing.
What you do and say on your own time is your own business. What you do and say on the clock is your employer's business.
If you don't like these working conditions you are perfectly free to go down the street and find another employer. Until then do what you are being paid to do.
Ok, so what if a child wants to be referred to as 'Jesus Christ', or Lucifer, or twinkle tows, or ??? Do you think the teacher would have lost his job for not conforming to the snotty nose brat wishes??
Ludicrous argument. Gender identity has nothing to do with names, titles of authority, or mythological beings/creatures. Those probably would be considered delusions (not real). Like the little voices people hear when they believe "God" is talking to them ... I would suggest listen closer, those little voices are their own consciences (delusions included).
Seems to me that we call these 'people' CHILDREN for a reason..If they are allowed to make these dangerous assumptions about themselves, why are parents needed? Parents are needed because these whiny butts have no common sense, no deductive reasoning powers and, by law, are not allowed to govern themselves. If we want to allow them to act like adults, make adult decisions, then lets kick them out of the house and make them get a job!! Can't have it both ways as in acting as adults in schools but reverting to children when they get home..You want to be a grown up, cool, get out and support yourself.
Assumptions??? Really??? The only assumption in this argument is whether you're a moron or complete moron....I'm going with total dumbass!
The teacher's religious freedom/rights end where the student and parents' begin.
I was fully aware of my own identity by 5 or 6. My religious experience was one of failure upon failure, and THAT god failed me. It was nothing less than abuse.
When the adult role model is toxic, and his (indoctrinated) ignorant solution is Reparative Therapy and superstitions, he does not belong in any possible judgment and authority over children in the general.
Don't misunderstand me, he is free to believe whatever myths he chooses at home, abusing his own children, and around the members of his cult. However, such intolerant, noxious, unethical supervisory behaviors are inappropriate in the classroom environment.
Its not though. Given the fact that this teacher got fired for referring to the person by their last name rather than using the "new" first name..
Either call all students by their last name, or address them with their preferred name. The mere actions of treating any child/children different, teaches hate and elitist thinking/actions.
Remember the ol' "green eyes" lesson from our childhoods? The isolating of any child creates a toxic environment. If the educator is unable to treat all students unbiased, he is unfit and teaching malicious social lessons other than the expected curriculum.
Perhaps, for mere self-actualization and fulfillment, this guy should consider a profession in a private pseudo-education institution approved by his favorite cult of choice.
It's not what he's saying, it's what he's doing ... and the lesson he is teaching the entire classroom.
Interesting you say this... If I agreed then perhaps all of these disrespectful football players should stand during the national anthem ... Tbey are working and are paid to play... No time for that bull crap either...
It goes both ways.
Teacher or not, he is being punished for using common sense. Abetting dangerous habits like being transgender by using those pronouns is like telling a suicidal kid it's okay to self-harm. Opinions don't change genetics and an extremely small opinionated minority shouldn't dictate what another person can and cannot say when they elected to be in that position. Perhaps we would be better off trying to help these children instead of allowing them to live a lie and pretend they are something they can never be. Also, comparing a classroom discussion of pronouns to “neutrally playing a speech by Hitler” is both ignorant and incredibly insensitive to the families of the millions that were killed in the Holocaust that actually suffered.
You're a special kind of stupid aren't you, Ben.....just out of curiosity did any of your mothers children actually live!?
WOW. Ben, you really do exhibit a special kind of something nasty and vile.
Maybe he should be addressed as "Asshat Asshat" instead of "John Kluge". The personal pronoun should be asshat. I mean, if he wants to be an asshat about it, then why should anyone refer to him by a name he prefers?
Public school teachers have a moral, legal obligation and professional obligation to show respect to all of their students and to not impose their religious beliefs or attitudes on them, or to promote intolerant attitudes among them.
So, what I don't understand is all the deep seated hatred towards the subject. How I do things is, if an individual looks like a girl, they're referred to as 'She' or 'Her' until I'm corrected. I don't ask for gender preference, I call it as I see it and if I'm corrected, I adjust. It's not a hard thing to do. Is it not safe to assume that most, if not all of us are ministers here? Now, anyone who uses God as an excuse to preach hate is wrong, for God only spoke of love towards each other. When will we, as a people, learn to come together? Not all conservatives or Republicans agree with Trump or believe we all should have extreme stuff going on. Not all liberals or Democrats have a lack of faith. So stop assuming things about each other and talk with one another. You may find you were wrong about one another.
Rev. Sal...nicely expressed...Peace...Tom
Mortified by much of this. As a life long Christian, Jesus taught to love the Lord your God with all your heart and to love others as yourself this is the whole of the Law. Respecting others and using kindness was the path of Jesus, and he I'd the ultimate example for Christian's He hung out with "the sinners", not disrespected them in the name of his own holiness.
Even in the ancient ti.es I went to school, it was common practice to call students by preferred names, be they legal or nicknames. Pronouns don't threaten anyone's belief system. If his faith is so fragile, and his god so small, he is worthy of pity but not to be loved to harm others.
By refusing to call students by their preferred pronoun, he is trying to force his own brief system on them and others.
Let's all sing the hymn! "Jesus loves me, but, he can't stand you."
Well , Back in The Dark Age when I went to School we were not allowed to use “ Nick Names “ be it on whatever paper we had to sign our names to or called by “ The Adults “ - Teachers , So kinda sorta in a way this ain’t no different. I can’t believe things people are allowed to get away with just cause they got their ‘ is that even allowed anymore ( their ) feelings hurt , My Goodness People get a lil thicker skin !!
There are only two genders in the world male or female that's it. If a female has a sex change she is now, a male. If a male has a sex change, he is now a female....It is plain and simple...If they are in transition between the twowhere they are half and half then maybe society should come up with a pronoun for that stage where there is no confusion..Maybe that student should have patience with the teacher until the teacher can adjust....What does LBGTQ want, maybe they should do a little compromising....A lot of heterosexuals would not have voted for same sex marriage, if they knew it would cause all of these lawsuits and individuals losing their businesses and jobs. Heterosexuals were told that if they voted in favor, the stuff that is happening now: lawsuits, lost jobs, lost businesses would not happen....Heterosexuals were lied to....because of this s alleged lies that constitutes Fraud then just maybe that law of allowing same sex marriage should be rescinded.
This is absolutely nonsensical. Transitioning and/or gender reaffirming surgeries are not the ultimate bar to which to judge people. You cannot look inside someone’s underwear; it is of little importance to you what is there. What matters is how this person asks to be addressed. If heterosexuals don’t want lawsuits they should not discriminate against gay people, but be accepting and treat us like anyone else. Supporting human rights and equality for people of all walks of life does not warrant an applause or reward - it is the christian thing to do.
In the Navy, we referred to this employee/workplace conflict as "unfit for military duty". Simply, this job was not a good fit for this band/orchestra/music teacher. If such personal "deeply-held religious beliefs" prevented him from performing his job and following Federal/State Department of Education standards and guidelines, he should probably find a new job where his paychecks are signed by "Jesus™". Moral judgment of this child is not in his job description.
On another note, I've known several closeted (terrified) music ministers who ended up praying the gay away, married, and with several kids to prove they were "healed". Only to bring extreme chaos to the family and other people when they finally decided to come out. Looking at the picture of this guy, and considering his staunch anti-LGBTQ stance, my Gaydar is sounding the LATENT HOMO alarms!
Sheesh, things were so much simpler when you 'people' were in the closet..We should have locked the doors.
If you "people" need to live in a Theocracy so badly, Gary, perhaps you should move to the Middle East.....they've plenty to choose from!!!
If you think that gay and lbgt behavior is 'normal', it only proves why there is a specific medical term of mental illness that pertains to you !! I don't think there are any mental illness issues specific to the rest of us 'normals'.
LOL....you're not the "norm" any longer, Gary, you're type is drying up and decaying bit by bit and sooner than later the world will be rid of you & they. But then you already know this and because you understand this to your very core you struggle even harder to make your bigoted views palatable to the younger generation. You Lose!?
Actually you lose, no reproduction equals no population... I don't think ANY of you are capable of reproduction, at least I hope not!!
Gary, just a quick question - do you really think lgbt people are.. born from lgbt parents?
If they were born that way, they would be born to those kinds of parents. More proof that they are not born that way.
Gay parents do not always produce gay children, in so much as, Breeders do not always produce Breeders. (I'm living proof.)
He is paid to teach, his religion does not belong at school unless it's a religious school. Respect goes both ways, if he treats his students with disrespect, that's what he is teaching and by refusing to address them as the gender / name they identify with is disrespectful. If he truly has such deeply held religious beliefs, go teach at a religious school. Otherwise, do your job and teach by example, a good example, not one of disrespect. Religion is not an excuse to treat others badly because you disagree with them.
Just anothe bigot trying to hide behind “religion”
So if a person stated “the earth is flat” or “we have no need of Dr.s or Surgeons only prayer” would you be respectful of their “opinions” or would you rather think they’ve quite a few screws loose and dismiss them outright? Of course you would dismiss them because we have medical and scientific fact proving their arguments to be false. The people who argue against transgender people are absolutely no different than a flat earther or medical denier. Medicine and Science have proved their argument false and they deserve no more recognition than any other idiot!
What is so wrong with using the name the person requests? If the child's name was Michael, but wished to be called Mike, did this so-called teacher refuse and only call the child Michael? Joe/Joseph? Elizabeth/Lisa?
What makes that any different than the child having been named Robert and asking to be called Tammy?
If Michael asked to be called Mike and this "teacher" obliged, then this "teacher" should have no issue using the preferred name for any other student. And if he can't do that, he doesn't deserve to be in the position he is. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
I personally believe this is an issue deeper than we think. First, the teacher is the teacher and if he is calling you by your legal name, nothing is wrong with that. If a transgender student desires to be called by another name, then get a name change, its easy a couple of forms and the filing fee, all in all it should cost between $150 - $500, depending on the state. Second, you are born either male or female, to act like the other gender is "pretending". If the person is acting like the other gender that's fine, but do not try to make every other person pretend along with you. Lastly, this is still a psychological condition known as Gender Dysphoria. It is accompanied by depression, anxiety and a host of other conditions that need treatment. Bottom line, if you want to be the other gender, have the surgery completed and end the confusion.
Are you offering to pay for the needed surgeries, Jeff??? If so great if not then perhaps you should do a bit of studying on the subject prior to opening your pie hole!
Why are we even calling these people transgender?? Unless they have had their sex changed, they are simply posers, pretenders, wannabees.
Katelynn -- I appreciate you standing up for trans youth, but it's not always about medical treatments. Mostly, trans people spend months or years transitioning socially before they start any medical transitioning. Many people now are choosing not to have invasive medical procedures, or are unable to afford them, and are living the best life they can under whatever their circumstances are. Blessings to you.
So now you're offering to pay for the surgeries, Gary??
Well lets see...if I can't afford a Corvette, do I just pretend to have one or do I save more money till I can..hence, if you can't afford to become a 'real' transgender then shut the heck up till you can!!
The teacher should find a job in the private sector.
WOW....You truly are ignorance personified, it's a wonder you don't hold a position in Herr Twittler's Fascista Government!
So glad Asian countries create many advanced engineers, doctors, and scientists.
If a school puts politics ahead of your kids learning, remove your children and place them in a school that strengthens their reading, math, sciences, and arts.
Their careers, discoveries, patents, and inventions need real knowledge, and independence. No one needs the brainwashed Cult of Statism.
If teachers are asking CHILDREN about their sexual behaviors, that is not focused on grades.
Many teachers are in prison for crossing the line...
Schools need clear policies to inform employees not to 'hit on' CHILDREN, or any aged student, as it is a clear and direct conflict of interest.
( Students should also refrain from dating behaviors during school hours, and focus their minds on learning.)
Educators need to maintain professional relationships,
not dating relationships, with students.
All people have the same Natural God Given Rights they are born with. The right to free speech, self expression, self defense, private property.
Using force , or threat of force, to enslave others to a particular cult or belief is unconstitutional.
President Lincoln could not have been any clearer, and he paid for the Truth with his Life.
He can sue for wrongful dismissal, but if he did actually "resign" the courts may decide he quit his job.
He could also sue for HOSTILE WORK ENVIRONMENT, but win or lose is up to the Courts.
Thank goodness religious schools graduate some of the top performing scientists, engineers, doctors, inventors, and artists.
To find a great Church school near you, just ask around.
Also SUE YOUR STATE to get School Vouchers - you shouldn't be forced by law to pay for school Twice.
Every parent can take the cash Voucher and give it to their school of choice.
Sports focus? Military? Religious ? STEM Focus ?
Every child deserves a custom education that enriches their life.
I suppose that's what the cults with schools are saying. Pseudo-scientists, pseudo-science - every person I know who went through the church's "private school" were subjected to settling for a GED (it was not a real diploma).
Please, don't get me going on vouchers ... equal access is NOT equal funding. Cult schools demanding public school funds, is nothing less than proselytizing at the government's expense and Jesus™ Welfare. Private schooling is a personal choice, not a Constitutional Right.
AMEN Bro. James!!!!
I'm feelin' The Spirit ... These folks are gonna' get me prophesying, and speaking in tongues, & sh*t!
Private property is a Constitutional Right.
States without School Vouchers are Pro-Slave States - kneel & worship the golden calf or men with guns come put you in prison and take away the children.
There are no "public" schools, the Cult of Authoritarian Statism is a Religion.
And since these high dollar schools repeatedly fail even the most basic security systems to protect the lives of kids - sending children to them is just neglect & child abuse.
BIG GIVER-MINT is Your God & Satan all-in-one: handing out rewards to the wealthy few while bringing death and enslavement to the many.
Recent news shows you how your "System'' keeps children: kept in cages.
The state sponsored indoctrination centers enforcing atheistic socialism are not part of the Constitution.
Fortunately enough free market systems still exist to allow some children to escape Slavery and prosper through Home Schooling or Private Schools.
There are good reasons why your Master Class and ruling elite send THEIR children to Walled off, Secured, well armed & defended very private schools :
One set of rules for the peasants, and no rules for the Royals.
School Vouchers literally give CONTROL back to WE THE PEOPLE. YOUR CHILDREN. YOUR CHOICE.
So, Get up off the ground, break the chains from your brain, and come join the Free.
Liberty is Wonderful. You will like it.
Yep. Tell them, Christian.
Being "transgender" is a mental illness. Kids professing it need help.
LOL.....you've no idea of what you're talking about. Idiot!
No. Actually, that is what science said only a few decades ago.
Quite simple. It is proper to call someone by their preferred name or title. That has no bearing on your religious freedom. Your approval of that name is not necessary.
AMEN. THANK YOU.
What I like to say is that any person's identity does not invalidate your identity.
It is a very complex subject, but put simply. I do not believe pronouns, or speech in general, should not be regulated by law.
Culture will change language, as it has done for millienia. You only have to look at the culture that surrounds the "N-word". No law was passed that made the utterance of that word a criminal offence. It should be the same for gender pronouns.
“Gay”, “perv”, “degenerate” were all words fully embraced in the LGB community since the Stonewall riots. When we used those words to describe ourselves we took the power behind those words and they could not hurt us. Much like the N-word in Pop Culture today.
But with the strong movement to equate speech one doesn't like as “hateful”, is like equating speech to physical violence. Laws are passed to end, or protect, people from violence.
There was a common saying when I was growing up. “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” (A mantra of mine growing up gay in a religious household.)
Today, that saying sounds more like “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words could land you in jail.”
The culture, and civility of humanity should determine its language usage. You can't legislate morality. It is quite the opposite.
The Transgender people I have known changed their names Legally, through the Courts, just like everyone else who wishes to change their names in America. I called them by their Legal names. I’m going to go ahead and assume that parents of Transgender children, provide them with the same courtesy. Let’s all be neighborly and treat others as we want to be treated. Pretty much sums it up.
A name change takes a long time to do legally. Most students have not had the opportunity to do so, or they might not have supportive parents, or the money to file, etc. Please call people by the name that they are using, and use the appropriate pronouns.
As Religious people we are never to be intolerant of others beliefs or disbelief. That intolerance and bigotry is the problem civil free society presently holds against the extremist factions in power throughout the middle eastern nations. Although they take this issue a step further and murder gays and disbelievers, but in this instance the issue is merely refusing to call a child by it's self adopted name. Jesus taught His disciples to shake the dust from your feet and go to the next place where ever the gospel was rejected. Let God judge, not us. If someone wants to be called "Snoflake" call him/her that. You only sin if you personally deny the existence of God just to comply with somebody else's wishes. Not if you bake a cake for a group of anti-religious folk or take photographs to meet a client's specifications. As for "modesty" in a bathroom, the solution is to put stalls with doors in large restrooms and take out the urinals, or in new buildings to comply simply put up single smaller unisex bathrooms at hallway intersections, large enough for only one person at a time. Yes this would dramatically raise building costs, but think about it, it would also cut down on a lot of the drug traffic activity in public schools! As a former teacher and graduate of public schools I can attest the big bathrooms is where much of this activity and school bullying takes place.
Everyone should read this article if you want to know what misgendering does to a person.
While all people should be respected, the fact remains that gender is not a choice. It is a biological fact. But the issue here is with children. A child claiming that they are a different gender needs counseling (and love) but not a reinforcement of their delusion. I realize this is an increasingly unpopular thing to say but as the old saying goes, sometimes the truth hurts.
You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you in the face, RMC....just because you say it doesn't make it any more truthful or intelligent!
That is not my opinion. Gender is a biological fact!! If you want to ignore science -- have fun. But destroying the lives of children with such foolishness is something all good people should speak out against.
Lol, yes in fact that is merely your "opinion", RMC.....modern medical and scientific knowledge say you are as wrong as wrong can be; you are far from a "good" person. You are patently ignorant and damaging to children worldwide!
Actually gender and sex are two different things. Gender is the identity you have. Sex is the biological characteristics and genitalia you are born with. Now if you were to say, there are only two genders - you’d be incorrect. Historically, throughout the many many years humanity has existed, there have been documents of different genders known to mankind. In mesopotamia, and some meso-american societies, there were up to five genders a person could identify with. If you were to say, there are only two sexes - then... you are also tragically incorrect. Intersex people do exist naturally, with all sorts of varieties existing in the way chromosomes and bodyparts are divided. In short - science does not support your claim. Science has found the opposite. As a scientist I’d kindly ask you not to use us for your twisted hateful false rhetoric.
See, if "science" says a pecker isn't a pecker, it isn't science. I'm just saying.
My god's bigger than your god.
Boy, RMC. These brainwashed people are going to be all over you like white on rice.
Apparently on you as well, John Owens!
Obviously, you all hate me for the things I do NOT say, Katelynne. As above when DH accused me of saying all kinds of things on here, that I have not said, and YOU CHEERED HIM. So, you admit you are one of the brainwashed. That's okay. How dull this blog would be without the lunacy.
Your ignorance, being as mighty as it is, John, I'm surprised your caretakers allow you on the computer alone.....careful, never know just whom you're speaking with!
You are the whiny moron who is fixated on me. You certainly haven't got anything more between your ears than I .
So sayeth you, John Owens.....yet as a Transgender woman I've forgotten more on this subject than you'll ever know and then of course real life experiences you'll never have the ability to know. Soooooo, wrong again!
Keep deluding yourself Katelynne. Nobody actually gives a crap.
I'm sure you know way more about weird things than I do. I never wanted to learn about weird things. That doesn't make me evil.
Now, I have not expressed any hate here, or made outlandish statements, but you are fixated on me for some reason. Just get off me and stay off me.
I may not be as knowledgeable as you regarding your particular gender dissatisfaction, but then, why on Earth would anyone study that, unless they were directly connected to it?
That being said, I'm intelligent enough to know a dude is a dude and a chick is a chick, and a dude can never become a chick. Period. That isn't hate, ignorance or stubbornness. That is just immutable fact. At the very best it will only be a clever disguise and pretense. That's most likely the reason for the HIGH SUICIDE RATE. Not persecution. It is called cognitive dissonance. I am sorry you are feeling it, but hating on me will not improve it.
You show more and more the true depth of your stupidity with every post, John.....I don't hate you but I do feel very sorry for you, ignorance has shrunk your comprehensive abilities to just about nil. Medical and scientific knowledge have passed you by leaving you and your kind in the dust of history and yet you still advocate for antiquity because you can never learn anything better!
And I feel sorry for you, Katelynne. I really do. I mean that. I'm sorry you had to put yourself through the things you have, and sorry it has not brought you contentment. Now, if you really feel sorry for me, STOP HATING ON ME.
Oh, and regarding this that you said:
"Medical and scientific knowledge have passed you by leaving you and your kind in the dust of history and yet you still advocate for antiquity because you can never learn anything better!"
Nobody really believes that. That is total made-up BS and everyone knows it but some of you PRETEND to believe it because your make-believe world is so important to you. And you say the Bible is a fairy tale!
HAH! I still do really feel sorry for you.
Lol....I'm the happiest I've ever been in my life, John, not sure where you got otherwise because I certainly never said it!
Let's see about that shall we, John:
The American Medical Association
The American Psychiatric Association
The American Academy of Pediatricians
The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry
The American Academy of Family Physicians
The American Psychological Association
The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists
The American College of Physicians
And ON and ON and ON, John. In fact EVERY SINGLE REPUTABLE MEDICAL GROUP IN THE USA and a ton outside of it endorse Transgender people.....
And that's just the Professionals. In addition to them both the State of Kentucky & The US Federal Government recognize me as Female. My employer of 30 years UPS and the Teamsters both recognize me as female. Every single therapist, surgeon, PCP, and the ladies who do my nails recognize me as female. My family, My friends, My Girlfriend, Her family, all recognize me as female.
And then there's you and your percentage of ilk.....case closed. You lose!
Katelynne, you can cite all the stupid names you can come up with, but it doesn't mean your IQ is one point higher. I've had pin-heads on here trying to prove bullshit, they name a bunch of studies. I read the synopses of the studies, and invariably, QUICKLY find where they person who cited them has obviously grossly misinterpreted them or perhaps just cited them without reading them, because we all know that you brainwashed people think if you can cite some other moron who believes the same as you, that makes you right.
You can't deny that you are not a woman. Not even to yourself.
Just remember, YOU started up with me.
Thank you John, for finally flat out stating the opinion that was already seeping through in your other comments. Truly, you have revealed yourself exactly the bigoted closeminded person I earlier accused you of being, accusing transgender people of deceit, disguise and denying their identities and right to exist and live as the gender they identify as. No matter how hard you stomp your feet and throw a temper tantrum claiming your backwards opinions are facts, and you denying these people their rights is not hateful, most of us see the truth. Bravo.
By calling you brainwashed, you think that qualifies me as bigoted and close-minded, BECAUSE I SAID YOU ARE BRAINWASHED!) You just verified it, and more lies-- big surprise--"accusing transgender people of deceit, disguise and denying their identities and right to exist and live as the gender they identify as." I didn't do that, but I see your problem. I say ONE thing, and you READ 5 things into what I say. Those little voices in your head are what are misleading you. My opinions about FACTS are that FACTS outweigh your fantasy science. Tell me ONCE where I have tried to deny "these people" (that sounds bigoted and superior) their rights.
Post my comments, damn it! You let these bigots post their lies. At least let me post my measured responses.
You are the moron who throws tantrums and tells lies. I am not bigoted nor closed-minded just because I point out facts to you within the voluminous comments you make, which you proceed to deny. I have not denied anyone's rights here, anyplace, and facts speak for themselves, proving me correct again and again, not because I am so smart or good, but because they are facts, which I recognize and you do not. You are the bigot. YOU are closed-minded. YOU are the one who stamps her little baby feet, and YOU are the hateful person here. I did not criticize the student here, nor side with the teacher. The voices echoing inside your micro-cephalic head must be saying the lies of which you accuse me.
Alright, as per your request, once again.
Here are your comments to Katelynne, a trans woman:
"That being said, I’m intelligent enough to know a dude is a dude and a chick is a chick, and a dude can never become a chick. Period. That isn’t hate, ignorance or stubbornness. That is just immutable fact. At the very best it will only be a clever disguise and pretense."
"You can’t deny that you are not a woman. Not even to yourself."
"Katelynne, if you want to pretend you are a female, you go right ahead and live your life to the fullest. If you want to insist that others indulge you in your delusion, like we might a little child having a tea party or playing super-hero, well, that’s just asking waaaaay too much. As for your opinion of my intellect, you’d have to be a moron to make any assumptions there, because you haven’t seen my IQ scores, but then again, you are so obsessed with trying to be a woman, that you allowed others to convince you to drastically mutilate yourself."
"Now, if a dude is a dude, I’m going to refer to him as a dude, unless he’s a prima-donna, in which case I’ll call him Princess or Cupcake or if his name say, Carl, I’ll call him Carla or Carlene or such."
I understand your panic. It's very hard to justify saying these things while still wanting to come off as non-bigoted.
It's not possible to have your cake and eat it too, John. If you say these things, if you see transgender people like this, that makes you a bigot. That makes you a person who actively contributes to our transphobic society, that makes you a part of the problem transgender people face and thus all of the above.
That's not what 'I'm reading into it'.
Again you yell about facts being facts, I have yet to see any of these facts. What are your facts, John? Where are these magical facts that prove you correct 'time and time again' as you say?
You haven't even made a convincing argument for anything, let alone present facts of any sorts.
You asked for facts, several people in this thread have provided you with these, studies and citations. (Yes, I read them, it is my field of academics.)
Yet you still shout facts are facts as if it
You asked to be cited back your comments and I did, yet it's still lies on my behalf I'm sure.
You're exhausting, and I am absolutely done with discussing anything with you.
Goodbye John Owens, have fun undoubtedly abusing your capslock button
Oh, that really HURT me when you talked about my capslock button. Invariably, a weak minded liberal will find a chance to say something about their superiors' grammar, spelling, punctuation, or jargon. They always DO, if the conversation continues. You know there are no italics or bold on here to put special emphasis on particular words. IF you were as literate as I am, you would also know that the meaning of a phrase can be changed or emphasized by stress on a certain syllable or word.
I have also been known to type in dialect, like the writings of Mark Twain or Robert Burns and of course, some air-head who has no logical argument will criticize THAT, too, but, you see, I don't CARE, because you are ninnies.
From now on, I self identify as a cat. I shall be adressed from here on out as mittens.
I just want to make a comment on the topic of gender inclusive restrooms whereby a gay man can stand up at a urinal along side a straight man and this is supposed to be acceptable. It's no different then if it were a straight man along side of a woman. The gay man is attracted to men in the he same way that a straight man is attracted to a woman. Even if the gay man wasn't attracted to the man or men he is sharing the bathroom with in such close guarters exposing genitalia or in view of the other men's genitalia it should be just as wrong for him to be there as it would be for a straight man to be in a woman's restroom, where under no circumstances would this be tolerated. It's the same with dressing rooms and locker rooms.
No gay is going to stare at your penis while you’re pissing, Warren - don’t flatter yourself. Good lord get a grip.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... Damn that was funny!!!!
Was that supposed to be an intelligent response. What are you 5
Well, I mean, shucks.....from the ignorance spouted throughout your entire post I had to imagine it could only be a child tapping at the keyboard. I responded in kind!
Well let me enlighten you Anne with your vast knowledge of frequenting men's washrooms I take it you have never experienced what I have and that is to not only have a gay man follow me into a men's washrooms take the urinal right next to the one I was using when there were was an entire wall full of them, then proceed to watch me urinate as he masterbated ...and you were saying??? I think this would also answer the other ignoramus Katelynne who thinks I don't know what I'm talking about..if you two feel so strongly about restroom inclusion why don't you get together to have gay men in women's restrooms.
Someone who does what you describe is mentally ill, and not because he’s gay. I may not frequent men’s bathrooms, but I have been harrassed by several straight men outside of bathrooms, in far worse ways than you describe. You don’t see me demanding that straight men are banned from clubs, public transport and the like, because it’s not reasonable. I guarantee you have shared your bathroom with gay men before that have not stared at you and were not attracted to you at all. (Wild concept: I guarantee you, a straight bigoted man, are not that attractive to someone in the lgbt community.) If what you say is true, you had a run in with someone who was mentally ill, not someone who was your run of the mill gay men, and frankly the fact you so readily believe yourself and the fact ‘all gay men would do this’ is telling.
LOL, that's a made up story if there's ever been one, Warren.....in fact it sounds more like a fantasy of yours, one that you can't wrap your head around, so you try to demonize a nonexistent gay man to make yourself feel better!
And FYI I have zero problems with a gay or a straight man in the restroom.....as long as they close the door and raise the seat pee away!!!!
I really don't care Katelynne if you believe it or not. it's not you or women in general I'm trying to get my point across to. I'll be satisfied if just one guy reads this especially young guys cause I was young when it happened to me. be very careful and aware of the gay guys that lurk in the men's rooms trying to get their jollies. Stick with the stalls that's your best option
Damn! There aren't any children reading this stuff, Warren. If I'm facing a urinal, nobody is going to see my stuff unless they get right next to me and look down at it. Nobody with a desire to do that has the courage to do that.
John Owens and Warren Wheeler are very sick and bigoted people, imagining and accusing gay men of hanging around public bathrooms to find other men to be with, since that is just a homophobic stereotype of gay men. They already have much better places to meet other men, anyway, and so just wouldn't ever need to find them in such a sick way as that and it is far more likely that John Owens and Warren Wheeler are merely relating their own past or present method of meeting women or men and putting that on gay men, deflecting, as is usual with their kind.
Why is it taboo to suggest we try and cure these people of their sexual abnormalities, but instead legislate the people to accept their condition? Perhaps because hubris naturally causes human beings to declare 'there's nothing wrong with me.' and its not PC to call someone out delusional? This week scientists published the first paper on how exactly the brains of alcoholics differ from everyone else. The answers to ending this amicably are out there. No behavioral manifestation exists without an underlying neurological state.
Because Jay, you absolute fucking walnut, there is no point in what you say. There is no cure for this. The only thing that helps people who are experiencing gender dysphoria is to let them transition and live their lives as the gender they identify with. All these attempts of ‘curing’ people of something are harmful to them, just as the notion that being gay could be cured lead to torture and mistreatment and increased suicide rates. Just because something does not fit in your tight little box of what’s normal, doesn’t mean it’s bad. Transgender people existing and being allowed to transition is not harmful to any of us. I think it’s funny that you bring up brains and alcoholism, because you’re underlying my point. Some people are wired differently. Alcoholics are often alcoholics because they are susceptible to addictions. (That is not the first paper on that issue however.) This is how their brain is wired. While you can do things to prevent someone from becoming addicted like keeping them away from overuse and preventing information etc, you can’t rewire a brain. The same goes for transgender people. You can’t magically take the dysphoria away, you can only help fight the symptoms of it - which can only be done by letting them transition and accept them as they are. If a teacher is wilfully ostracizing and harming students, he is not fit to be a teacher. End of.
Anne...i agree; you should respect and see people as they are, not as your ego wants them to be...it seems that ego/judgment always looks to have others less than they are, as that inflates the ego...if these critics really want to make the world better, they should donate to charities; work with the sick; do hospice...act and do compassion, not judgment and being arrogant...Peace...Tom
Speaking of hard fact based neuroscience not psychiatry quackery. This technology might sound like science fiction the only thing keeping it from becoming a reality are people who lack imagination and and people blocking the attempt insisting the problem doesn't even exist. In the meantime I completely agree upon the humane treatment of these outliers, don't be a douche and just call them in whatever manner they wish. "Hey you" sounds like a good compromise. Accept them as they are, yes. Insist we we can't do a thing because we have never done it, no. ignorance and lack of imagination have been the cause of prolonged human suffering forever I don't expect that to change but why is it too much to ask that people even discuss the possibilities?
I suppose that reason is that while exploring those ‘options’ you are also telling a whole group of people there is something wrong with them that needs fixing. The way you are right now, what you’re doing - it’s not accepted by society and we seek to cure you of this thing that falls outside of the norm. It’s a close close line to walk. How long before we rewire the brain of gay people?
Transgender people are not asking for science to focus on a way to change their brains, they’re asking for people and society to respect their identity.
The world is a more beautiful place because of people that are different. I don’t understand why you’d rather work on a hypothetical possible but not certain cure for something that is not a problem and can be fixed by treating people with decency and respect for others.
You should use kinder words. Name calling gets us nowhere.
That aside, you stated “The same goes for transgender people. You can’t magically take the dysphoria away, you can only help fight the symptoms of it – which can only be done by letting them transition and accept them as they are.”
You are correct in this. Gender dysphoria cannot be magically erased. Just like a physical (cosmetic) transition cannot replace or repair sex genes or DNA. So, it must be managed and monitored. Much like alcoholism.
Still we must come at the issue with compassion. There is a very high suicide rate before transitioning, and the rate does not fall significantly after transitioning, as one would expect.
Gender dysphoria is akin to BIID (Body Integrity Identity Disorder); where the mind and body are in a state of dysphoria. The removal of the “misaligned” body parts is NOT a clinical solution to BIID. So why should it be the solution in the case of Gender dysphoria?
There are people above spouting the most hateful rhetoric about gay and transgender people, but you trip over ‘absolute fucking walnut’? I hope you’re kidding.
Honestly, I’d agree but we’re way past kindness and sitting pretty waiting for people to give transgender people equal treatment because it’s being asked so politely.
The process of transitioning /is/ managed and monitored by doctors who specialize in this. It baffles me how people think transgender people decide to change their lives around on a mere whim. Several psychological experts and medical experts and even judges are involved in a process that takes years to complete.
The physical transition is not something everyone undergoes. It is not at the core of what the issue is about. I have a bunch of transgender friends, and not all of them have had gender reaffirming surgeries. Still, most are happy with who they are now, because they are accepted and able to live life as the gender they identify with. What matters is that others respect your identity, and agree to see you as you yourself do. BIID and gender dysphoria differ in this, because gender dysphoria is not only about a body part, but about your identity as a person. The cure for dysphoria isn’t just the physical transition, it’s acceptance - and unfortunately in our society the transition is needed in order to gain that acceptance. That is why it’s so important for a lot of transgender people to ‘pass’ for cisgender. Because not passing means being subjected to possible discrimination and violence.
Anne...i agree with all you are saying...the reality is that all people are equal souls, and when all of us learn to treat all souls the same, there will finally be no more need for this "world"...Peace...Tom
Where is all this hateful rhetoric of which you speak? I read accusations of it, but haven't seen it.
Well, I don't believe in reincarnation, but IF I DID, I would think that before a person can incarnate into whatever it is they think they should be, they would first have to accept the thing they are, and learn to be that to the fullest and best degree possible. Only after that would fate, karma, kismet, whatever allow them to evolve into what they wish to become.
Of course, that's all bullshit...But it sounds half-way spiritual.
Lol, Robert Tucker.....if that's compassion I'd hate to see what really screwing us over looks like to you! As has already been stated the high suicide rate pre transition has to do with how horribly trans people are treated by society, an "compassionate" people such as yourself. Post transition rate you quote is total malarky. Suicide goes down significantly once mind and body are aligned and needed surgeries completed!
NCTE. Preventing Transgender Suicide Washington: National Center for Transgender Equality. 2010.
See this study (among others). Suicide rate increases in study participants after transitioning.
Katelynne Victoria Shouse, As far as compassion goes, you—by reading just a fraction of your numerous, often vitriolic posts— make judgements before you even know someone. To claim you have compassion, but deny anyone else might also be speaking from compassion is just simply narcissistic on your part.
If you would like to contribute facts, anecdotes, or anything other than ad hominem attacks feel free.
P.S. Hateful speech comes from a hateful mind.
Other risk factors included the degree to which a person is identifiable as transgender, with those who consider themselves as not being able to pass at 44%, those who are generally out about their transgender status at 44% and those who have only some of their identity documents in their preferred gender at 46%. Those who have medically transitioned (45%) and surgically transitioned (43%) have higher rates of attempted suicide than those who have not (34% and 39% respectively).
I have cited this from your 'study' which is not actually a study but a short report from a conducted survey. These numbers are known, but misconstrued if you think the medical transition is the cause of the higher suicide rates. The money issues attached to transitioning and facing hospital bills, as well as being unable to pass and facing scrutiny even so whenthere were high hopes for the surgeries are actually the reported causes to explain those numbers. If you want to cite studies, read all the caveats please.
Compassion and Tolerance do not extend to Intolerance, Robert Tucker, your views are hateful and bigoted and dangerous and I'd no more give them credence than I would someone who believes the earth is flat or the Bible infallible!
There you go: flat earth. They all read from the same little playbook.
Just a generality, John......you really like trying to switch the argument to something that literally has nothing to do with the subject and therefore avoid answering whatsoever!
You are the one who brought up flat earth, Dumbass.
You are the one who brought up flat earth, Moron, not me.
As an analogy not as the main point of focus, John.....if you can readily ascribe to the boorish and bigoted notions that you do then truly, can the flat earth notion be far behind!? And as an aside I'll gladly put my knowledge up against yours on any given day!
Boorish? Are you trying to sound like an aristocrat? Is it really boorish to say that any scientist who tells you a penis is not a penis, is not a real scientist? IS THAT YOUR DEFINITION OF BOORISH?
Now, bigoted: You think because I care enough about humans to tell you that you cannot EVER really be a real woman that I am somehow a BIGOT? Because I don't go along with your delusion? What kind of stupid madness possesses you?
Just because you are so deceived, let me explain something: A prerequisite in any science is intellectual honesty. "This thing (whatever it is) is what it is. It is NOT something else." ; " I am going to conduct this experiment, and whatever the result, it IS the actual result, which I will publish."
Now, I am not a bigot. I am not boorish. You are not a woman, and a pecker is just a pecker. Stop being petulant.
You really have no idea what you're speaking on, Robert Tucker!
I enjoy discussions such as these. Listening to a variety of viewpoints. My goal is to end the suffering and suicides permanently but issue for many seems to be how do we force a CIS majority to comply with our wishes( legislation and fear seems to be answer to this question). I'm also guilty of the preconceived notion that everyone just wants to fit in and will do a great deal to achieve this.
I'm glad you're openminded and willing to listen. I am not transgender myself, but I am a lesbian and perhaps I may offer some insight. Sure, it would have been easier growing up in some ways if I was not gay. But I still would not /want/ to be straight, even if it would mean I'd have an easier time fitting in. I would want society to be more accepting of me, but I wouldn't change myself. For a lot of my transgender friends this works the same. They are proud of themselves, and their experiences. I understand it's a long road to achieving acceptance from a cis majority, but I believe it is the only rightful choice. When we look in history at oppressed groups, yes it takes time, and resistance - but eventually it happens. I've been blessed enough to grow up in a progressive country like the Netherlands, where gay marriage already existed before the act of homosexuality was proclaimed no longer illegal across all of the USA.
Maybe it will take legislating, and maybe people will whine about being forced to accept and treat others with respect at equal footing. I don't have pity for those people and the legal consequences they may face when they fail to do so. Eventually people get with the program, and it becomes normal.
I don't think the answer to society casting out a group for who they are is asking the minority group to simply stop existing. 'Get treatment, change your brain, stop being transgender.' I think it is rather horrifying to rather divert resources to a hypothetical solution by removing transgender people altogether, which may or may not ever come to be, than to use those resources to actually help people now, and work towards a more open and accepting society.
It is like Tom and Anne said... once we go into changing transgender people to fit a cisgender norm, where does it end? Do we take away prejudice and racism in our society towards people of color, by genetically modifying and removing them from our society all together? Do we 'cure' gay people rather than work towards ending homophobia? To me and I believe a lot of other scientists, the notion of looking into changing this part of people is unethical,
That is why currently all medical experts on the topic offer transitioning as the only medical solution.
It also creates a great market for unnecessary surgery and medicine. Fortunes are made and spent.
DH...it is interesting that when the majority of people feel uncomfortable, they resort to mob mentality (the majority forcing/asking/suggesting that the minority change, to make the majority feel more comfortable), rather than realizing it is completely backwards; that in order to achieve the peace of God, the majority needs to confront itself, and realize the situation of non-acceptance is a spiritual problem of theirs; the majority is refusing to accept that it should be caring, loving, compassionate and forgiving of all of our fellow souls...also, the majority does not realize that if it could slowly eliminate groups with which it is uncomfortable, it will none-the-less precipitate its own gradual erosion, because people have an unfortunate ability to always find differences to upset them...lastly, the majority fails to realize that the "different" groups are here for teaching and learning; they are not anomalies...Peace...Tom
Tom, thank you for your continued open and kind words. You are absolutely right, and it is exactly what I meant to underline. There is no telling where it will end once we start ‘curing’ people of what we consider outside the box. The box will only get smaller and smaller, when we could have been making our hearts and minds bigger.
It's interesting to see how what language is chosen and how it's used. Such as"we" and "cure" and "them", as if ones destiny and desires are dictated by others. I only suggest we pursue the medical technology that would allow an individual to create the mind they want. (To secular of a concept for this forum?) We all desire a life of ease and comfort, using that deep desire how many non CIS people would gladly "flip the switch"? And please don't give me crap about not " changing who person is" , I'm a sentient being I'm whoever the hell I want to be( limited only by the technology to make manifest). In fact I wish this technology existed, I would love to be asexual, I can just imagine all the extra time and energy I would have have to focus on my mad scientist endeavors.
Tom, what is a REAL failure is for the anomalies to try to tell the majority what to do. There was an old Sioux saying: "One man cannot change a whole tribe, but, if he is strong, he can live with the tribe, and not allow it to change him, much." Peace to you too.
John...there is a lot of wisdom in the Lakota way of life...but, respectfully, there is no reason for the majority or the minority to try to change the other...that is all ego...just live a loving, compassionate, forgiving life, and all is well...Peace...Tom
When I was in high school I called my history teacher by his first name, got Hell for that. When I was in college I only called one instructor Mr.out of respect for Mr. Edmonds (movie director). When I was in grad school every instructor was by first name since I usually were older then them. I took classes beyond that degree. Taking a class at a another college I was told that I was to call the professor by Dr. (so or so). I ask him why? Because he has a degree as a Doctor. OK! I ask if I was to get a AA then I should be call AA (******). If I had a BA then I should be call BA (****). OK! But since I got my MA you shall from now on call me Master (*****) when you speak to me. Get the point.The class did. If I want to be called Lord Jesus Christ because that is how I see myself or the Prophet Muhammad then should I not be called that. No I shall not! Does it matter if the child wants to be address as Miss or Mister then so be it. It does no harm. The locker rooms will decide if the child is a male or female. While the female child will be welcome in the boys locker room, not so with a boy inthe girls locker room.
Our country was based upon all people being equal, which they are in the heart of God, as well. Any 'religion' that thinks otherwise, doesn't. Accommodations should be available to all. Every being deserves respect & kindness.
I would ask the person what name is on his/her birth certificate then ask if they had gone through the courts to have their name legally changed. If they did not have their name legally changed, I would call them by their legal birth name. If the person doesn't like it, too bad, get it legally changed.