Stop us if you've heard this one before: a Christian baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay couple has had their day in court – and won.
Back in 2017, California bakery owner Cathy Miller refused to bake a cake for the wedding of Eileen and Mireya Rodriguez-Del Rio, a lesbian couple.
Citing her Christian faith, Miller declined their order and reportedly referred the couple to another local baker.
The couple filed a lawsuit, arguing that Miller, owner of Tastries Bakery in Bakersfield, CA, blatantly violated California's Unruh Civil Rights Act by discriminating against them.
Now, five years later, the courts say that Miller did nothing wrong.
First Amendment Right to Discriminate?
In his verdict, Kern County Judge Eric Bradshaw found that Miller’s religious beliefs were sincere.
"Miller's only motivation, at all times, was to act consistent with her sincere Christian beliefs about what the Bible teaches regarding marriage," Judge Bradshaw opined in the verdict in Miller’s favor. "That motivation was not unreasonable, or arbitrary, nor did it emphasize irrelevant differences or perpetuate stereotypes."
"It's been a long five years," Miller told the Bakersfield Californian after emerging victorious in the court of law. "I'm hoping that in our community we can grow together, and we should understand that we shouldn't push any agenda against anyone else."
Who's Agenda Is It Anyway?
Critics of the ruling say the only agenda being pushed here is an anti-LGBTQ one.
“Of course we’re disappointed, but not surprised,” said Eileen Rodriguez-Del Rio. “We anticipate that our appeal will have a different result.”
During the case, the attorneys representing the same-sex couple tried to reframe the refusal to service a same-sex couple as targeted harassment.
CA State Attorney Gregory Mann asked Cathy Miller if she follows "everything that the Bible says,” including some Old Testament commands like not eating shellfish. The line of logic was that if she only selectively chooses to acknowledge the anti-gay parts of the Bible, and doesn’t follow the less convenient parts, then perhaps she’s not religious – she’s just a bigot.
The defense scoffed at the suggestion. "The state was actually questioning the sincerity of Cathy's faith," said Miller’s attorney Paul Jonna, who called the argument “disturbing”.
Closing Arguments
The case is just the latest in a long series of Christian wedding vendors refusing to service gay couples on religious grounds.
You may remember the case of Colorado baker Jack Phillips of Masterpiece Cakeshop, who refused to bake a wedding cake for a same-sex wedding all the way back in 2012. His case went to the Supreme Court, which ruled 7-2 in his favor - although the ruling was intentionally narrow in a way that could not be used as precedent in any other case.
Bakers are hardly the only wedding vendors to refuse service to same-sex couples, however.
From invitation designers to florists to clothing stores, many types of vendors have refused to assist same-sex couples on First Amendment grounds simply because they’re gay.
The bad news for gay couples is that, in the battle of liberty vs. equality, the courts (so far) have tended to favor the Christian vendors’ right to refuse services on faith grounds over LGBTQ couples’ right to equal treatment.
What do you think? The First Amendment grants us all the right to freedom of religion and the right to free speech. But what should happen when one’s sincerely held religious beliefs include discrimination?
157 comments
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Parson Golden
Claiming to be Christian and actually being Christian are worlds apart.
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Val Jester
Isn’t that stating the obvious?
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Parson Golden
Perhaps, but there are still people that do not comprehend that basic concept.
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Lyle Roy Gleason
A very holy man once commented, "I like your Christ, I DON'T like your Christians. Your ' Christians' are so UNLIKE your Christ." That person was Mahatma Gandhi.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Put these people say they ARE Christians.
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Parson Golden
Yah, well people say a lot of things that are false, including “Christians”.
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James T Wade
I'll keep it simple :-) You can't legislate morality it has to come from the heart.
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Lionheart
Totally agree! It’s a pity the Christian God had such low morals. Clearly, most of us, with better morals, were not made in his image 🤭
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
The Christian God doesn't have low morals, but only low morals, actions, and words ascribed to Him by Bible writers, and that can be done to anyone. You are laughable talking about your morals being "better than God's morals", since you are evasive, game playing, backbiting, lying, pretentious, and indifferent to other people's problems, which are infinitely lower than God's actual morals.
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Lionheart
🎣
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
John D. Partin, I think Lionheart is far more God-loving than he cares to have us believe!
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Lionheart
Thank you, George. I actually don't love/revere/worship any of the worlds gods, but I do consider my morals better than those I've read about 🤗
🦁♥️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, why do you blame God for the shortcomings of men and women?
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Canadian Yankee
In your beleif did he not create us. The maker is always responsible for the product.
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Canadian Yankee
If I were a graphic artist and someone asked me to create a positive ad for the Nazi party I could not do it in good consious and certainly it would not, even if I did it be my best work. I don't agree with withholding essential services like medical attention but where there is a lot of choices for various products I would stand by the right to withhold service. I would also boycott any store that did.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Canadian Yankee "If I were a graphic artist and someone asked me to create a positive ad for the Nazi party".... I believe if offered enough money you would do it.
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Canadian Yankee
Sadly sir you obviously don't know me. I run a very successful radio program and podcast, Veterans Corner Radio and I have been offered substantial sums to add sponsors to the program and yet I still only have one small print shop, for which I receive no compensation, that was with me as a sponsor.
Not everyone is moved by money, although I suspect given you see that in others you might be among those who will sell there soul for 40 pieces of silver but I am not among them.
If you are a veteran you can find Veterans Corner Radio on selected over the air FM stations, on all podcasts networks and at www.veteranscornerradio.com just to name a few places to find it.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Canadian Yankee I do believe you but will say you are a 1 or 2 percent-er. Most people will sell out once there are enough zeros in the dollar amount. Are you sure you would not do it for even $1,000,000,000? Just think what you could do with all of that money? Or how many vets lives could you make better with a billion dollars? Would you even consider it for even a moment? All you would have to do is just create on positive ad for that $1,000,000,000.
I've helped US vets in the past and have to praise your work. I think Herman Goring's comment about the Nazi new recruits says it all in 1939. "The best thing this soldiers can hope for as we go to war is they comeback alive in one piece." But even then the trauma of war is something that will remain with them forever.
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Canadian Yankee
What does it profit a man if he gains the world and loses his soul. You don't know be but I have tried hard to be my own man during my lifetime, I have in many cases made decisions that on the surface seemed detremental to me and my well being but in the long run I have been able to sleep well at night. What good would all that money be if no one trusted me. I am not silly, if I were in direr straights and my family were starving there is little question I would steal to feed them, but then when times got better I would try to make ammends. My "Veterans Corner Radio: show and podcast is based on trust and trust is easily broken. Fortuantely I don't have to sacrifice standards for gold but I know many do and many can not help themselves.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Canadian Yankee It all depends on ones personality. Some people, sounds like you are one of them, cares deeply about others and would not feel right screwing them over.
Others feel they are in this world to steal and screw people over.
It's been my experience people with enough money are able to buy people's trust including from people who are not trustworthy.
From what I'm seeing we now have a lot of people who use religion and God to tell lies and screw people over. Our politicians in the senate are telling people there are Space Lasers controlled by Jews which were used to start the massive fires in California and in food processing plants to create a world wide food shortage while profiting from these stories.
The world need less of these Christian religious people and more good people like you. People like you are rare.
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Canadian Yankee
It has been my experience those who make a show of being Christian and the least likely to follow Christ. I would hate to see all people of the Christian faith be tarred and feathered because of the likes of Representative Green.
BTW you may by followers but not people you can trust, at least I feel that way.
Thank you for your kind comment. I try.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Canadian Yankee You might like this... My parents raised me as a Christian. (Hated every moment of it.) Then when I was in Sunday school and in confirmation class I began to us a skill I learned in public school called critical thinking. As soon as I did, I realized I was being taught nothing but a bunch of man made stories starting with Genesis and God's creations. Ever heard of the Belgian Catholic priest, Georges Lemaître? He was also a theoretical physicist, (hung around with Einstein), mathematician, astronomer, and professor of physics at the Catholic University of Louvain. I'm sure you have as he's the one who discovered the "Big Bang". Unfortunately for Christians in doing so he proved that God and the Bible got the order of creation wrong in Genesis for days 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. We know Lemaître is right because his discover of the Big Bang or as he called it the "Primordial Atom" lead directly to the creation of computers, GPS and that Einstein was completely wrong when it came to the creation of the universe. If you are using a computer, thank Lemaître. But that also means God and the Bible is woefully wrong. And this priest is only one of so many others who made discoveries proving the bible/word of God was wrong and filled with lies. As and adult I studied have studied different religions. If one does, you quickly realize almost all of the stories in the Bible are the retelling of stories from other religious beliefs some dating back thousands of years before the Bible and Christianity existed. If you know European history you know Christianity was used to control as a method to control the masses without the need for police forces. People then were taught to behave and "slave" for their royal leaders in hopes of a better eternal life with God. And those who didn't would spend the the eternal afterlife in hell. Thank Martin Luther 500 years ago for exposing the Pope and Catholic church as a complete fraud and a scam. Got to love religion. It's when the first con-man meet the first fool. And the fools have been following ever since.
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Canadian Yankee
I personally am pro God, too many things in my life have pointed to what I believe is a fact, there is a greater being. I am not pro religion but I feel every person has a right to make that choice for themselves but not for me. I also don't think it is my duty to go around punching holes in others beliefs, again as long as they practice those beliefs in a manner that does not affect me.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Too many things in my life have happened….This is a very common statement. This is also not proof in any way shape form or fashion.
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Campuscoll
Yankee, if I were in your shoes, I would tell the Nazi oriented customer that you didn't think you could do what he asked. You just can't think of anything positive about the Nazi party. Tell him to go to the Skinhead printers down the street. They might be able to help him.
Seriously, I highly doubt that someone as you describe would ask you to do anything. That is a bit far-fetched. You cannot withhold service from anyone based on gender, religion, sexual orientation, age, etc. A Muslim would not go into a Jewish delicatessen and order a sandwich. But the delicatessen would serve him if he wanted one. When one serves the public, he is bound by a new set of standards that he must obey. It's just the way it is. And discrimination laws apply in the state in which he lives.
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James D Ingram
That is basically what the Bakery did. 'Go down the street to a different business'
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Canadian Yankee
Keep in mind, my comment was based on a personal service not the purveying of a commodity like a sandwich for a tank of gas. I beleive that there is a signifigant difference.
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Campuscoll
Yankee, if I were in your shoes, I would tell the Nazi oriented customer that you didn't think you could do what he asked. You just can't think of anything positive about the Nazi party. Tell him to go to the Skinhead printers down the street. They might be able to help him.
Seriously, I highly doubt that someone as you describe would ask you to do anything. That is a bit far-fetched. You cannot withhold service from anyone based on gender, religion, sexual orientation, age, etc. A Muslim would not go into a Jewish delicatessen and order a sandwich. But the delicatessen would serve him if he wanted one. When one serves the public, he is bound by a new set of standards that he must obey. It's just the way it is. And discrimination laws apply in the state in which he lives.
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Canadian Yankee
Please note there is a difference in serving a man a sandwhich and designing a special cake for a wedding. One is a commodity that can be purchased anywhere the other a personal service. However I would extend my comment a little further. If in chosing an occcupation I saw things in the job I could not do I would suggest not going to work there. An example is a pharmacist, the public has a right to assume they will follow the rules of thier profession and serve up that which is ordered.
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Pastor George Day
Canadian Yankee, Nazi is outlawed. LGBT is not. Significant difference there.
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Canadian Yankee
What source are you using for the outlawing of Nazi's. If you are going outside of the USA then there are places were both are outlawed, both Nazi and LGBT
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Tareq Asfour
I never believed in American Christianity anyhow or the courts.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I accept some of the tenets of religious belief. But the religious bigots such as this baker? If asked for directions I’d get them lost, if they were drowning, well, as the man said, I would not lend a hand. If they worked for me they better be a stellar employer that I can’t find a replacement for bc otherwise they will be fired ‘with cause’. If they apply for a job, well, the choice of the best candidate for any job requires a modicum of subjectivity, right? If I am renting there will be no space at my inn. Maybe install a kill switch on the motor of my tow truck that would prevent some cars from being successfully towed. Basically, I would shun them. I wouldn’t piss in their collective mouth if their collective teeth were on fire.
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Donna Crescenzo
???
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
??? Was I unclear about my attitude toward religious people? They have the right to belief what they want but they should realize that opening their mouths about it generates consequences. And it generates consequences bc of actions of people like bakers and photographers.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, I am surprised the moderators allowed this. This is hate speech. Hate speech is a crime.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Your opinion. That and a couple of bucks will buy you a cup of coffee.
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Rev. MichaelRS
The hypocrisy here is that the alphabet people want other people to accept and respect their values, but they don't want to accept and respect the values of others.
In the beginning, and for the longest time the mantra of these groups was we just should be able to love who we love and live our lives without being harassed and so on and so on and so forth.
But more recently it has changed to the point of;
If you don't approve of and support every aspect of our lives, if you aren't marching In or enthusiastically waving a rainbow flag at a pride parade, then you're a hateful bigot that wants us dead.
It's a ridiculous turn of thought.
The way you handle this is to simply leave them a one-star review citing the reasons why.
Plus, I am sure out there, somewhere, there is at least one gay cake maker, a gay florist and a gay caterer that would be very happy for the business.
Or, if against all odds you can't find one gay person in each of those fields that would be happy to serve you, they're also many straight people in those fields that really don't care one way or the other.
The only thing these lawsuits have done is served to give the parties publicity in the Conservative Christian Community who will support them financially, either through buying cakes or making donations and to strengthen their resolve in such matters.
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Tom
The LGBTQ community wants to be accepted as people who exist and are deserving of compassion. Homophobic Christians want us to accept their hatred of that community. That's not hypocrisy.
Would it be okay to refuse service to someone because of their race? If not, why would it be okay to refuse service to someone because of who they love?
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well, apparently, so far, the courts disagree with you.
And they're not being refused generalized service because they are gay. As the Colorado baker who was the genesis (if you'll pardon the pun) of all this said, he's happy to serve gay people in any other way. It makes no never mind to him. You're a gay person and you want a birthday cake? You got it?
But in his faith marriage is a sacrament between a man and a woman and his position is that he should not be forced to participate a similar celebration that is basically, from his perspective, mocking his faith.
The other thing is, there's no prohibition in Jewish or Christian scriptures about being of a different race or that being of a different race is sin.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. MichaelRS, your comment is misleading. Homosexuality and gender dysphoria, just like intersex, are not conditions of one's choice. They are experienced and life conditioning. You come across as very unkind and lacking compassion. This is a DISGRACE of one calling themselves a 'minister.' Besides, your 'alphabet' choice of language, in each context, may be construed as hate speech. That is also illegal and punishable under the law - I have just recently had a case where some of my students got arrested, mind you! One thing is to profess a traditional belief and defend orthodox doctrine. As a mainstream pastor, I do just that. Another thing is to offer pastoral outreach. The approaches aren't the same, and you lack the skills. Bingo!
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Pastor George Day
Rev. MichaelRS, your 'alphabet' choice of language is unpastoral and divisive. It does not serve the purpose of ministry.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
The EMT who refuses to aid a gay person because... The ER doc who won't treat a gay person because... The funeral home who won't allow a gay funeral because... The Fire Department that won't put out the fire at a gay person's home because... The court assigned lawyer who won't defend a gay person because... The teacher who won't teach the child of a gay couple because... The sanitation worker who refuses to collect the trash in front of a gay person's house because... The DMV worker who refuses to take a picture of a gay person because... The christian who refuses to love and respect and honor a gay person because...
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Robert Gagnon
If your not wanted somewhere, go to a place that accepts you and your ways. You want them to spit on your cake? You think you can force someone to change their ways, and genuinely like you? You'd rather spend months or years in court rather than be married and happy, after a wedding supplied by someone who likes you and your money. Maybe even contribute to a gay owned bakery. We had an expression when I was a kid. Stop making a federal case out of every little thing that offends you. Life is too short to waste on haters.
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Daniel Gray
They think they will win in an appeal but once it gets up to federal courts they will lose again as the SCOTUS has already decided this issue and nothing in a state level can overturn this decision nor can any state force this issue and ignore the SCOTUS decision no matter who they think they are. get over it you lost now either go to another baker or just not have a cake, its not rocket science.
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SpokenBhill
I feel like as a Christian your suppose to Not judge which why I'm having a issue with this man putting his bigotry off on Christian values as a Christian your suppose to want nothing more then to see unity and family's coming together to form a strong bond with teach other as well as making that promise to God I feel he is selfish for getting in the way of a contract and bond there making with each other and God.
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Tanya Keller
I think the visibility of a couple being same-sex is definitely causing the discrimination. I don't think these bakers are asking heterosexual couples their religious backgrounds prior to agreeing to make their cakes. Jewish couples, agnostic or atheist couples, Buddhist couples, etc. It is very easy to make this claim but if they are not ensuring all their customers are of their faith then they are discriminating. Period.
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Norma R Ray
It's a "CAKE". No one is asking you to become gay. Or to support that they are gay. They just want to buy a cake from you (which is what your business is). Why is that such a problem?
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Mark Edwin Currier
Go to a Muslim catering business and order pulled pork then tell them it's just pork we're not asking you to become Christian.
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Lyle Roy Gleason
As a goof, I have gone to a Kosher deli, and ordered up a ham sandwich and a glass of milk! They actually laughed, and said "sorry". I was in no way offended, and laughed with them!
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Rev. Jim Sutton
Let's keep in mind that any retail and wholesale place does have the right to "refuse service to anybody entering the establishment." As far as I know, a reason does not have to be given. But if one is, it's covered/protected by that "refusal of service." Remember the old sign "No shirt. No shoes. No service."?
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Doctor Loyal
Why is the demand for equal rights under a gay agenda acceptable, and to whom does it apply? Religion can pit diametrically opposed beliefs into a confrontational and sometimes physical battle. Why does anyone's beliefs trump another's beliefs? An expression of one's beliefs doesn't indicate bias or hatred of another's beliefs, it simply is an expression of a belief.
If the tenets of one's religion requires anyone adhering to those beliefs to display their belief, state their belief, and act according to those beliefs any different than someone whose sexual proclivities assume their belief is better than another's beliefs? The separation of Church and State is a firm foundation upon which to act as one professes, rather than having another's religious or lifestyle beliefs sweep aside mores and ethics based on another person's sexual choices. The discussion is so fundamental that one would tend to think that mores and ethics are just a silly convention brought up to frustrate someone else's desires.
In fact, persons pitting Personal and Sexual lifestyle Beliefs against another's Fundamental Religious Beliefs is more than just a confrontation, it is a deliberate choice to impose your lifestyle against another's beliefs. When sexuality is considered to be more important than deeply held tenets of one's religion, it is more than confrontational, it is a selfish imposition on another's deeply basic emotional needs.
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Tom
Sexuality is biologically determined and cannot be changed by choice. It's not a lifestyle any more than having brown hair is a life style. Religious belief is a choice that one can decide to change if they choose.
Your argument is that one's personal choice takes precedence over another person's biological imperative. You've presented a scenario where a person's belief to discriminate against someone for something they cannot change is more important than that person's right to receive equal treatment. This is the same argument that led to "separate but equal" being the law of the land despite the separation being anything but equal.
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Herbert William Kleinfeld
I spent 10 years working retail. Never once did I discriminate nor, refuse service to any customer based on the customer's color, displayed and/or declared sexual preferences or their political affiliations. If you're not capable of treating everyone with respect, there's no place for you in retail. Don't give me this crap about serving certain people creates a conflict of interests with your religious beliefs. In your home or place of worship run wild with your beliefs and convictions. But, when you're working you need to treat everyone equal. Before you start throwing Bible quotes around, remember Jesus teaching us to hate the sin but, love the sinner.
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Pastor George Day
Well said, Herbert William Kleinfeld. It is all a political game masqueraded as 'religion.'
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Jason Andrew Teller
Why would one want to force another, baker or otherwise, to violate their conscience? In a ceremony as potentially joyful as a marriage, would one really want to work with a company (or otherwise) that wasn't able to do so in good conscience, nor with a joyful spirit? That doesn't seem a good relationship, nor a good start. Does this matter not go deeper than whether a business can refuse service? One's conscience is one's conscience... 'religion' or not, business or not. One should not need to prove their sincerity in order to live according to one's conscience. Discrimination is part of life. We all do so every time we make a choice. And we do so for our own reasons; And this is good. Live and let live. Do no harm to others. The bakers have done no harm to others, they have remained true to themselves, their conscience, and their faith. This is understanding.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
right up until a chrs chen baker says they will not make a cake because one or both of the engaged couple has been divorced. or because one or both are jews or muslims or pagans or whatever. or because they are catlick and the bakers are bible thumpers who don't accept catlick and therefor they will not bake them a cake. the sword (or cake knife) cuts both ways and one of these days a chrs chn is going to be refused service and then what? all out war? crhs chns need to get over themselves, they are not special, they are not privileged, they are not the only ones who believe they are right
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Kirk England
What an incredibly unprofessional post! Insulting Christians and specifically Catholics by misspellings that you didn’t do for three other groups mentioned in your post!
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Jason Andrew Teller
Dear "Rev. Father JJ,"
The framing of an issue matters, and this one was incorrectly framed. It's not a matter of what religion a person is, if any. It's also not a matter 'laws' for businesses. It's a matter of Human free will. We all have beliefs, convictions, and a conscience. Business are owned and operated by Human Beings with feelings, thoughts, beliefs, convictions, and etc. Business are people, and people have a right to be authentic.
Second, and this was my other main point: Why would anybody want to work with another person(s) who did not desire to reciprocate? That would not be a good relationship. Especially for a wedding.
Third: Do you think that Christians and Catholics are never discriminated against? It happens all the time. Discrimination is apparently part of life, and who can totally understand it? You clearly feel entitled to your right to your discrimination. And so what? Not everybody is for everybody. So be it. People have convictions, we are all different. Our differences stem from different experiences in life(s). This is how it is. It's best to work on ones-self rather than to lash out at others whom one doesn't truly understand (nor, in your case, respect).
Fourth: It would be better if you would show respect to others equally.
Sincerely, Jason
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Pastor George Day
Why do you call us crhs chns? That is mockery and offensive. We are disciples of Christ. That makes us Christians.
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Pastor George Day
Jason Andrew Teller, it works both ways. When I was seeking recovery from drug addiction, I was refused access to a Catholic rehab because I was gay. Is that, also, OK? The rehab is known as Cenacolo Community... nice presentable name, but lacking love and compassion, sadly!
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Vicki
I think there's a difference between refusing service (like in a restaurant) or refusing to sell something that's on the shelf and available to any shopper, based on someone's religion or race or gender or sexual orientation or any number of things like that. But businesses should be able to refuse to provide a custom service that goes against their beliefs. For example, if I were a graphic artist I would refuse to create a design promoting war or homophobia. Same with a custom cake. Likewise, I would not want to be required to perform a wedding for people whose beliefs go against my conscience.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Because chris chens love their neighbors and leave the judging to their goD
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Krystina S.
I am guessing your response is ironic? Because obviously they are the judgiest sort of judgmental judgers.
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Richard Darwin Richards
Let's refuse to send weapons of mass destruction over to Ukraine that are killing thousands of people!
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Tom
Completely off-topic, but sure, let's stop giving them military aid so Russia can keep killing Ukrainians and steal their land. We should totally stop helping Ukraine defend its sovereignty. /s
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Richard Darwin Richards
Agreed ,stop sending military personnel and weaponry to Ukraine that is killing thousands of innocent people. Spend the billions of dollars here instead, healing and taking care of people. By the way, besides killing people with wmd's, what are you doing to help?
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Tom
The innocent people being killed are the Ukrainians being bombed by Russia and the Ukrainian civilians executed and thrown into mass graves by Russian soldiers who have occupied Ukrainian cites. We've been supplying them with anti-missile defense systems and the weapons they need to defend their country. Are you really suggesting we should just abandon these people in their time of need?
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Pastor George Day
Tom, does Ukraine have legitimate sovereignty? There's another side to the story we haven't been fed. Both Western and Eastern media are biased. Remember that the Ukrainian nationals acted like Nazi against the Russian ones until Russia reacted the way they did. Their government was overthrown twice through a revolution. With this I DO NOT endorse what Putin is doing, as I know most here would accuse me of that. In no way is war ever acceptable, but Ukrainians aren't innocent saints either!
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Alun Lloyd Palmer
It's difficult. The right of customers to equal treatment under California's Unruh law should control. I don't see why this is seen as covered by the first amendment. OTOH, it's an artistic work, and nobody wants a cake designed by someone who doesn't believe the wedding should take place, other than to prove a point, or file suit. By the time you decide the cake isn't flattering and you don't want to pay for it, that might be too late to get someone else to do a replacement. I think the case was wrongly decided, but I'm not sure it should have been filed.
For information, my eldest is transgendered and previously came out as gay. Fortunately, my wife is an excellent baker and cake decorator, so going to a commercial baker would be unnecessary. I can imagine someone filing suit if they don't have much choice of bakers where they live, and I can see why they might end up doing that. .
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Krystina S.
I think that if we follow the "sincerely held belief" motto, then people whose businesses are OPEN TO THE PUBLIC could refuse service to interracial people/couples, black people, asian people, hispanic people, handicapped people, Jewish people, Catholic or Protestant or Mormon or Seventh Day Adventist or Jehovah's Witness people, much less people of other faiths/sects, the ways that someone(s) could affect their "sensibilities" are endless. The whole point of OPEN TO THE PUBLIC is that you don't discriminate. You are not supposed to discriminate, based on what we used to call The Law. for example, refusing service to black people is forbidden. But I can see a place where "sincerely held belief" that black people are from one of the 12 Lost Tribes, and a "bad" one at that, means No Can Serve. Or that "sincerely held belief" is that the white business person has to keep the "races" separate. Ridiculous? Yes. Have I heard both of those things? YES. From bigots searching to explain their racism. In the same way, people cherry pick the "gay" concept from their version of the Bible (which is what their sect pushes, rather than what Jesus taught!!!) and cherry pick their "follow the Bible." Not eating shellfish? Really? AS IF that was the most important Regulation in the Old Testament? What about the other 612 Laws in the Bible? None of those, by the way, say you can't be gay. It is a disgusting example of bigotry being pushed by "sincerely held belief." If one is OPEN TO THE PUBLIC, then "Refusing Service" cannot be targeted as A GROUP. That particular carve out is for people who create demonstrable problems in the course of doing business. Not for the black person or the (how do you know they are) supposedly gay/trans person who walks in the door. Because serving people you feel uncomfortable about (like teenagers or elderly people or people in wheelchairs or oddly dressed people or people with many tattoos or people who ride motorcycles or people with darker skin or accents, etc. etc.) is YOUR JOB. It doesn't mean you "CONDONE" any imagined behavior of your CUSTOMERS. Jesus would be disgusted and horrified that so-called "Christians" are being BIGOTS "in his name." Shame on them. If you are open to the public, serve the public. Making a cake or arranging flowers does NOT make YOU gay or a gay-pusher.
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David Cox
Why do you think God gave Sodom and Gomorrah a chance to turn from there sins Lot was there but they did not change so God destroyed them....you need to read the old testament laws again. Leviticus. Also read Roman's chapter 1. Homosexuality is a sin in the bible. It's his choice. It's against his faith.
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Lionheart
Stories in a book! I never did like the plots, and in particular the brutal genocidal, and infanticidal, qualities of that principal god character. I wonder who wrote him into those stories? It never was a good book for children to read. Much too bloodthirsty for my liking. I’ve actually heard on the grapevine that there are some people that actually believe that book of fiction to be true. I know it’s hard to believe, but that’s just the way some people are I guess. I wonder, if in time, some people will think the Harry Potter books are true? What do you think?
🦁❤️
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Ronaldo
Some people think that all of history is nothing more than stories in a book. Some even claim that the Holocaust never happened, that we never put a man on the moon, etc. At least the Harry Potter books were sold as fiction, unlike the Bible, so it is very unlikely any intelligent person would believe otherwise. We have found physical evidence of places mentioned in the Bible, and non-Biblical references to some of the people mentioned. So far, that has not happened with the Potter books.
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Lionheart
Not completely true, Ronaldo. The Potter books make reference, but not limited, to:
“Diagon Alley”, a high street located in London.
“Shell Cottage” the home of Bill Weasley, and Fleur Delacour. It’s located overlooking a beach outside the village of Tinworth in Cornwall.
“The Leaky Cauldron” is a dark, shabby pub and inn located on Charing Cross Road in London.
There are also references to England, and Scotland, both places are real.
It’s true there are also many fictional places and characters mentioned in the Potter books, just like in the Bible. For instance, there are nine references in the Bible to Unicorns. That’s all you really need to know how fictional some of the Bible is. 🤭
Thanks for your comment though, my friend 🤗
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Not exactly, Ronaldo. Harry Potter's books, it was claimed by the chief Vatican exorcist when he was still alive (Fr Gabriel Amorth), have the very signature of Satan. This isn't a naive statement. Those books put in the mouth of children witchcraft practiced formulas that have way more influence than you and I can far imagine. I believe those books are dangerous. Just imagine if your kid claimed to have an imaginary friend and suddenly started to act weirdly or get sick. Who would imagine the imaginary friend has anything to do with that nowadays? Fr Gabriel Amorth would!
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, I feel you well know that the origin of those stories is from the perspectives of those who lived through them as passed on in oral tradition. Their preservation is a guarantee of divine inspiration, but not how they are described. The Bible is both human and divine, just like Christ, who is its incarnation. As for Harry Potter, I'm not sure it's so good for children. The actual sorcery formulas are taken and reported verbatim from witchcraft realia. I would highly discourage it for children for that reason.
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Lionheart
I don't consider many of the stories to be worthy for the eyes of children, George. Too much blood/mayhem and horror, especially from that god fellow that was written in to it.
Witchcraft/Religion are all human constructs, but at least with Harry Potter, children don't live in fear they will go to a Hell if they don't believe in him 🤭
🦁♥️
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Olivier Ammour-Mayeur
Then, I guess you need to read the Bible more carefully! Sodom and Gomorrah IS NOT about homosexuality, it is about NOT WELCOMING strangers in the right way! It's about FORCING people in doing things THE WAY WE WANT them to do, not in THE WAY they are used to!
People who still read Sodom and Gomorrah from the gay point of view really have an issue with their sexuality (on top of with thei reading skills!).
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
David Cox First up, my religion don't recognize the biblical god or his rules, Second do you support my right to refuse service and or help to Christians? as I see their religion as an affront to Nature.
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Lyle Roy Gleason
Mr. Cox, I have been reading a number of your posts now, and it is clear to me that you cherry-pick that book of fairy tales that is 'the Bible' to support your own personal prejudices. Just what IS your opinion of selling your daughters into slavery or prostitution, or stoning to death people who have jobs that have them working on the Sabbath? Your 'God' approves of both these actions. It is increasingly hard for me to accept the 'Bible' as the word of 'God', when it is being used in this manner, as an excuse for racist, sexist, jingoist behavior for people to hide behind, or as an excuse for their bad behavior!
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Pastor George Day
Lyle Roy Gleason, you need to put things in perspective in the light of contemporary context. In biblical times peoples were harshly criminal in their approaches to wrong doings. Israel was being gradually educated by Yahweh to reduce their violence. With the advent of Christ and his teachings, things were rectified. An example is to reduce to stoning both a woman caught in adultery and the man, against punishing the woman only; or one tooth for one tooth rather than two for one. Jesus took the punishment for din on himself to the cross, and he taught us to turn the other cheek.
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Pastor George Day
David, the Bible didn't have a language, like we do, for those affected by homosexuality, gender dysphoria or intersex condition. Like today we embrace all of them under the LGBT umbrella, in those days they had the word 'eunuchs' for those outside the gender norm in common discourse. You are right: acts of homosexuality or gender mutilation are condemned in Scripture. But God also made very clear his love for those affected by this condition. Please see below.
Deuteronomy 23:1
No one who has been emasculated by crushing or cutting may enter the assembly of the LORD.
(Gender reassignment maybe?)
Leviticus 18:22
‘You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination’
(Men having sex with men maybe?)
Romans 1:26
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
(Women having sex with women maybe?)
Isaiah 56:3-5 And let no eunuch complain, “I am only a dry tree.”
For this is what the Lord says:
“To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose what pleases me and hold fast to my covenant— to them I will give within my temple and its walls a memorial and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that will endure forever.
(God’s unconditional love for LGBT maybe?)
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Steven Ferrell
You are trying to compare apples to oranges. There is no biblical stand for the groups you mentioned, there is biblical stand for not wanting to make a cake for same sex marriage.
They referred them to another baker who would do it, but it was not about a cake for their wedding, it was about trying to force others to go along with their agenda.
My question would be why anyone would want to give their money to support a business that does not support their agenda? If I know a business does not agree with me on something, I do not do business with them, as I don't want my money going into their pocket.-
Campuscoll
Steve, once you have a business open to the public, all religious concepts end at the door. You cannot refuse service to anyone. Period. The only standard accepted by law is an element of health and safety. A Christian baker in Kern County has won a court case about gay couples and a wedding cake. It will be appealled and the appeal will win in the higher court. In California one cannot have a business and pick and choose their customers. Discrimination is against the law. Sexual orientation is not illegal and a refusal to serve someone based on their sexual orientation IS illegal in California. It will be thrown out. I cannot find anywhere in my Bible where it says one must only do business with those who agree with my religious beliefs. The only admonition for dealing with non-Christians is on a personal level, not a commercial one. This judge was wrong and will be judged accordingly.
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Tom
"They referred them to another baker who would do it, but it was not about a cake for their wedding, it was about trying to force others to go along with their agenda." The agenda of receiving equal treatment instead of being demonized and discriminated against? That's the only "agenda" being pushed by gay couples.
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Pastor George Day
Tom, and the Jewish religious leaders referred Jesus to the Roman to be crucified. Bingo!
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Pastor George Day
Steven Ferrell, firstly, it is not about the cake but about the principle of being fair. Second, Jesus was accused by his religious leaders for attending feasts and celebrations with those who were perceived as sinners in his day. Would Jesus bake the cake and attend the gay wedding?
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Pastor George Day
Krystina S., this is very well said. However, Seventh Day Adventists are Protestants, unlike Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses, so they should not be listed separately :-)
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Nicholas J Page
Here In the UK it's classed as homophobic./ Discrimination.Personally if I was gay I would research these businesses to find out if they would bake a cake or not.They got it done elsewhere so what's the problem don't bring religion in to it.Its a personal preference.
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William F. Phillips Jr
Definitely a personal preference.
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Jimmy Moon
I think the queers knew the baker was Christian and targeted her to get their name in the paper. Why wouldn't you support other queer bakers if that's the way you roll? Seems to me, they should be sued for wasting the baker’s time.
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Krystina S.
Bigotry is alive and well, obviously. How would someone know a baker was a bigot? Your response is cruel and unfair to people just trying to live their lives.
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Olivier Ammour-Mayeur
I think people like you have no brains at all! How can I know, though?? Does it show on your face? Probably not... So I am just making an assumption... One that is as stupid as your comment! Do you go to shops asking for people's faith before buying anything?? Must be really tiring...
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Pastor George Day
Olivier Ammour-Mayeur, again... he needs a prescription to get the right pills!
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Pastor George Day
Jimmy Moon, you really must be suffering from insomnia at night to figure all this out! Thought about sleeping pills? Just a thought :-)
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Val Jester
The cure to this dilemma is to make the cake but inform the couple that all proceeds from the sale will be donated to the Family Research Council in their names. There. Fixed.
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CB Cuff
You mean like trick them into thinking everything's okay, the insult them by donating to a group which supports the same bigoted belief. ????
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Debra Susann Amber Cardot
Every small business should have the right to refuse service to anyone. No shirt, no shoes, no bride, no groom, no service.
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Tom
Might as well add no Blacks, no Jews, no women, no Muslims, no Arabs, etc. am I right?
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Lionheart
You missed out, No illegals, or Democrats 🤭
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, NO CATS NO DOGS... NO VEGETARIANS NO VEGANS?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
While Christians might feel they won this battle, you people are looking at the actions of Christians and seeing how mean and spiteful they can be. They don't want to be associated with such hatred.
Add to this the claim Christian politicians are claiming Space Lasers are the cause of all the fires in California and Oregon. And now these space lasers are being used to start fires at food processing plants to create a food shortage this winter. And the Christian politicians claim these Space Lasers are under the control of the Jews who want to rule the world.
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Cheryl Anne Hamm
Fortunately Christians are not part of the ultimate judgement. I have a feeling based on the state of their current faith many expecting immeasurable treasures and streets made out of gold are going to be disappointed.
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Pastor George Day
Cheryl Anne Hamm, I would not be so sure. Using your own standard measure, you might be surprised!
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Earl Wayne Bell
If you are a member of the LBGT community, I wish you peace and a full and content life. I don't believe however that you need to force your chosen life style on others.
Personally, I believe that homosexuality is an offense to God. We are all sinners and no one sin is worse than another. As a Christian I believe in God's forgiveness and that sinners should repent of their sins. That does not mean that I advertise my sin, am proud of it, or march in a parade of similar sinners and celebrate my sin.
I discern without judgement. I try to live a Christian life, but fall short. I'm thankful for the grace of Jesus Christ and I repent as best as I'm able.
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Arnold Eugene Karr
I find it ironic that the struggle for human rights has become mired in lawsuits over whether I may give thousands of dollars to people who hate me, for things I don't need in the first place. If they were denied service at a vendor of human necessities, that would be a reasonable cause of action. I'm not a lawyer, so this is an ethical more than legal argument. Seek peace within.
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Steven Ferrell
No one can ever tell me why they would want to give their money to a business that does not support their feelings or beliefs. If I know a business does not believe the same as I do, I for sure do not want my money going into their pocket.
What this was is them trying to force people to agree with them and their feelings or agenda. Trying to force someone to accept the gay or lesbian life style, will not make some one supportive of them, it only cause feet to be dug in on both sides and the divide to grow stronger.
I know pastors who will not perform same sex marriages. I have been asked if I would perform them. I say if it is legal in the state, then I will consider that as I would any couple. If it is still illegal in that state, then no I will not.
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Pastor George Day
Steven Ferrell, I take your same stance, but I do not call them marriages if they are same sex. In conscience, I must. But I will bless their union.
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Maureen K. Sullivan
I personally know gay people who intentionally seek out gay dentists, gay physicians, gay real estate agents, go on gay cruises, etc. Are they to be sued for discriminating against straight people in theses same professions or businesses? Grow up. Practice your freedom of choice and move on! If I were gay I would seriously consider opening a gay bakery!
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Donna Crescenzo
??? Everyone here seems to have a different opinion. The truth is that you nor I are the judges in this case. Miss Miller has only one judge- God himself. What she does in her home ( business ) is her business. She must be accountable to God as upholding her faith. Not one person’s opinion replying here matters. I do not believe she is a bigot or discriminating but holding fast to her belief the marriage is sacred- between a man and woman. All the arguments re; Does Miss Miller eat shellfish… if she does -she’s not a Christian- that’s not right. We all have God’s word in our heart and follow it the best we can. Some things are top of the list like- do not kill or love others as yourself. Many feel the sanctity of marriage between a man and woman is at the top of their belief system. We ALL sin and come short of His glory. As for the couple? —- they do not need to pick a fight and go to court… just move on. As a bridal consultant- I helped with a gay marriage at an EXTREMELY conservative country club. I was told- do not have the ceremony outside- nor cocktail hour. I refused to treat them any different than any other couple I assisted- with wedding management. I took them for pictures where I took every other couple- out on the golf course. It so happened there was a golf outing and we had about 100-110 spectators. They complained- my boss called me in to talk- I said - I was just doing my job. For me- loving others and making them feel welcome was most important. My beliefs have no bearing on others- the situation had nothing to do with me. In my house, my rules . In Miss Millers business, Miss Millers rules. Period.
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Theresa Gull
I think it is ridiculous that people can use their religious beliefs to deny someone goods and services. Pushing their own religious agenda is its own form of discrimination and has no place in society. Keep your opinions to yourselves and if you can’t, find another line of work.
It’s none of anyone’s business who someone loves. Mind your own house.
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Doctor Loyal
Why impose personal lifestyle and sexual proclivity over another's fundamental mores, ethics, and religious beliefs? I have no bone to pick with the way another celebrates their religion, whether it is celebrated by rubbing camel fat on one's backside, or any other means. However, a lifestyle and sexual preference should not be considered more important than another person's fundamental religious belief.
That particular choice of confrontation is not acceptable and forcing a person to deny their beliefs, mores, and ethics because one prefers sexual satisfaction with inanimate objects, inflatable dolls, sheep, or a same-sex relationship is cruel and selfish desire imposition.
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James D Ingram
The ruling is fair. A business should have the right to deny business on grounds of their beliefs. I create functional art using old objects. I refuse to work with firearm or gun parts. I don’t believe in supporting America’s worship of the gun.
What if the ruling was different? That would also mean that is someone wanted me to create a sculpture that glorified gun violence, I would be in danger of a lawsuit if I denied their request.
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Pastor George Day
James D Ingram, do you serve the public? If so, I do not think you should discriminate.
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James D Ingram
The choice with ‘who’ we do business is a two sided coin. I find that we support inclusive businesses and avoid businesses that support MAGA type views. Spouse and I even have a code word. If we see any kind to MAGA or tRump propaganda, we drop the word ‘Nickel’ and we both casually put down any item we are holding and slowly leave the store.
Not going to spend a ’Nickel’ with these people. Are we being discriminatory? Maybe. It’s my money, I have the right to spend it where I want to.
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Mark Edwin Currier
She had standing but no chance to win that suit based on discrimination. Try going to a Muslim catering company and tell them you want a pig roast or pulled pork. It's not happening. It's a private business on top of that.
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Rev. B
I doubt any practicing Muslim owns a business catering pork. They have menus for a reason.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Learning about Islam, would involve finding out that those dietary restrictions are for some members of the faith, and to personally consuming pork. Within the broader label (just as within other religions) are multiple interpretations.
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Pastor George Day
Mark Edwin Currier, if it's a professed Christian business, like the kind that supplies religious services, then they have a point. But when it is a secular business, my religious beliefs should not be grounds for discrimination, because my service is offered to the public.
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Charles Oliver Wolff
I don't have to let anyone in my business or my home. This gets misinterpreted as some kind of inalienable right which it is not. A private business can lock its doors any time it sees fit, is that denying service and deemed prejudice against night shift workers? Just like freedom of speech, I can ask you to shut your trap, but the government cannot. Private business owners are not the government. While it is unfortunate that prejudice still exists in the 21st century. What is more interesting here is that shopkeepers are not being asked to be gay, only to serve gay clientele. I don't believe it's very Christlike to refuse to acknowledge anyone else's right to be who they are. Or the reverse from them. Both sides here need to get over it.
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Autumn Tarin Rimer
Good on them for following the constitution. I don’t know why someone wants to force someone to make them a cake. Don’t you want something made with love and positivity for your wedding??
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
How is that following the constitution?
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
How is that following the constitution?
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
How is that following the constitution?
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Kenneth Kevin Falconer
I wonder if what I am about to say is pushing the boundaries of today, too far. Bibles and scriptures were written so long ago. Society was so different then. Society now has so many new and different facets to it. Is it now time to write a new bible? Why not? It can be all inclusive to the people and societies of today. We can respect a different life style without having to partake in it. We can respect differences as long as everyone involved is not forced. I would only choose to discriminate against people who wish to harm others or cause ill will to others. I don't know if any Being back then could have imagined how we were going to evolve into the society we have become. I don't believe I have an answer to this even though I have just thrown this out here, for thoughts and discussion. If you say yes then how shall we go about it. If you say no then what really should stop us from doing this? NO offence is intended here. Just a truly honest question.
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
There are so many similarities to back then as today as can be seen in all "Holy" books and stories compiling the history of humanity. People are people the world over and always have been. Everything that happens today has been described as having happened before to some extent shape or form, as far as the behaviors of humanity. Funny how the proposers of anti LGBTQ have in many ways been the same who would label any other belief or person unlike them and their ideals and culture as "satanic" and "abominations", yet Their own Gods Commandments tell them to Not Commit adultery yet so many do, not bear false witness, yet so many do, Thou shall not kill, yet many do, if not directly, then through war, death penalty and guns galore, refusing vaccines and refusing to protect lives by wearing a mask during infectious disease outbreaks. Their "God" didn't say how or for what reason, he just said thou shalt not kill. But "He did not command Thou shalt not be LGBTQ! Where is thy judgement of themselves? And maybe that is why the same plagues of humanity continuing to inflict harm upon us and our societies, because we don't learn and are even less apt to change, especially to change our own behaviors and let others be their own! These same Folks who Want most To control and have power over others, are many of the same generational groups and families who destroyed the culture of Native Americans through indoctrination schools, they hated the Irish and discriminated against them, then it was the Italians, and Hispanics, and on and on and have always sought to keep women inside their womb and their boxes. I think they need to mind their own commandments, and mind their own selves and let "God" care for Gods People! and as I recall their God also said, Thou shalt not judge as that is Gods day of judgement!! I think the only way democracy and the US republic is to survive is the separation of church and state, and church and politics! We are not a Theocracy, but have permitted our nation to morph into a money and special interest oligarchy and corporotocracy, in part as a result of actions taken and long planned to overtake ye nation state by religious and "supremacy" group pups, such as religious identity. or any number of "churches". And like many cults and humans who desire Power and autocracy over others they will Stop at Nothing to get their way and get All Others to comply! We are a people of many kinds! This is what has even in the Holy books been referred to as a Psychosis of humanity! Even their own God could recognize that, after all wasn't their God, the Omnipotent and Great Creator of all that there is? What's good for the goose is also good for the gander, either way it's not for you to decide how others shall Live, if it is maybe you should live in a cave! I would love to see the "religious" focus on their own behaviors and let others be free to be who they are!!! Perhaps if you don't like the freedom in the USA, Maybe go back and live under the Church of England! Or on a yet uninhabited island! As the saying goes... Who died and made you God? Apparently None of humanity has ever had the answer, maybe it's because we are just programmed prodigies...repeating history again and again.
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Kirk England
The Holy Bible was put together from many “books”. A lot of “books” were deliberately excluded because they may have blurred the Christian path. The Christian path says that marriage is between a man and a woman for the purpose of making and then raising children to be Christian. Western society has been eating away at the Christian path for a long time. In the 1970s marriage licenses no longer required a doctor’s certification that a couple were “healthy” enough to have children so that elderly widows could marry. I remember a news program featuring an elderly couple being presented as the need for discarding that requirement. Critics of the change said it would eventually lead to gay marriage being legalized. Proponents of the change insisted that it wouldn’t. Now here we are in a day when it is apparently ok to harass only Christian religious business owners on their stance on LGBTQ+ marriage.
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Minister Jeannine of the Church of the Free Spirit
We live in the United States of America and our founding fathers clearly created a document regarding the bill of rights for all, and were intent on and capable of upholding their own religious Beliefs and practices and the right to exercise freedoms of religion! Yes along the way many groups of extremists have pushed their values, beliefs and the like upon us and that is why we are no longer thee free democracy we once were because they have bastardized and overtaken the system now intent with creating their ideal image of "their Kingdom"! And they are doing it by refusal to serve others, and through hateful acts and in many cases threat and violence! Shame on them I don't know what Jesus and God you worship but you are not to be the Judge of others that God's realm not your human conditioned bias! If that who this nation is we might as well be Iran!
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Peter Max Mueller
Please understand that belief in Jesus as the son of God is not mandatory.The choice of who or what to worship is not decided here. Or by YOU !
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Jesse Amado-Conway Garcia
Why would anyone want to give business and hard earned money to anyone who wasn’t grateful in receiving the honor and blessing of supporting a customer and a child of God. If they’re judging in “the name of the Bible,” those people are worshiping a false god!
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Lionheart
All I know is, I want some of that cake 🍰
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, me too if it's a vegan cake!
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Robert Lyle Mitchell
It would not bother me to do a same-sex wedding. Who cares it is not my place to judge you. I am going to be Happy for you and hope you have a Long life together.
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Kirk England
The lesbian couple and their fellow gay activists are seeking Christian businesses to harass. I find it hilarious that they don’t harass Muslim businesses at all even though everyone knows how anti-gay those businesses are! This whole charade is based in woke nuttiness. It sounds like the plaintiffs’ attorneys deliberately lost this case because everyone is getting tired of the nonsense.
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Pastor George Day
Kirk England, maybe because the Muslims are too busy planning their next terrorist attack. Now, if you think my comment is discriminatory, think about the LGBT people that are too often the target of hate speech from religious people. By the way, my best friend is an observant Muslim woman, so I have nothing against Muslims, like she has nothing against homosexual Christians. How beautiful the world would be if we just stopped trying to change others to our own agenda! The Christian baker to me is no different than the Muslim terrorist: they both act out hate speech.
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Pastor George Day
Now, everyone please, as you end your discussion, meditate on the Desiderata! This church is beautiful because we are diverse! Let us meditate together, celebrating our diversity :-)
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Tamara Kaye Cooper
From what I have read. They deliberately go to these Christian bakeries, knowing the bakery will refuse to bake their wedding cake. They want to file a law suit, they're just looking for a payday. It's sick & pathetic, if you ask me. There was a male couple that pulled this & made enough to buy their first home. It has now become a trend in the community. I'm happy to see that the courts are starting to turn around & back the business owners. There are to many other bakeries to go to. Our courts should not be backed up with this nonsense.
Any business has the right to refuse service to anyone on any grounds. She did at least refer them to another baker. Do I think she was wrong? Yes. Worth a fight in court? Nope. I've been refused service. You simply move on. Why would anyone want to do business with someone who probably hates them?
Absolutely.
People seem to get offended over the prettiest things. I've learned to never take anything personal. Since being offended is a choice and something no one can inflict upon you without your permission, I believe your suggestion to "simply move on" is the soundest advice in this thread.
I agree 100%. Any vendor should be able to legally refuse service to any person for any reason. If you are refused service simply move on. Having said that, I am a devout Christian and the teachings of the church I attend say that sex and marriage is to be only between a man and a woman. I personally feel that this choice is between the individuals and God. It's not my place to judge anyone. I have never been asked to perform a marriage for two partners of the same sex. I guess I hope I'll never have to make that decision. Be blessed Revrend Bill
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Mr Phillips: “I personally feel that this choice is between the individuals and God. It's not my place to judge anyone” if this is your sincerely held belief, that would require recognizing your role is make the cake or do the service requested as it’s between individuals & God the righteousness of act, not I, nor you, or anyone else judging on God’s behalf. I do not speak for God. I do not interpret for God. I do not judge for God. I hold only myself and my personal actions to standards I believe intended by biblical teachings. I embrace all God’s creations, no matter how, or with whom, they choose to be. As for “vendor legally refusing service for any reason” Nonsense. Public service providers should never be allowed to pick & choose whom they will serve based on their perceived understanding and own personal religious based bigotry that encroaches on any other human being’s abilities to receive business services. Who is any vendor to “judge” another? It’s so amusing watching my fellow Christians judging their fellow God’s people, deciding who is and isn’t worthy, all while they themselves are forgetting to simply ‘love one another as I have loved you.’
Pastor Jim, you probably have no experience of belonging to a minority thar is often target of hate speech, particularly from churches, and discrimination. I invite you to listen to people's experiences before you make your judgement.
Pastor George, you probably have no experience in dealing with the human psyche if you are unable to understand that any action or reaction (to include being offended) requires a choice to be made.
I agree. I wouldn't want someone who was forced to make my wedding cake against their wishes to make my cake. First I wouldn't want to support a business that was homophobic and secondly would you trust eating a cake that someone was forced to make for you; I wouldn't.
Anthony Spicer, they may poison it... lol
@Colleen McAllister Your claim any business has the right to refuse service to anyone on any grounds is incorrect. Do you really think a business can refuse service to someone because they are black or a women? Try getting the services of an abortions in some states and see if you get served.
You are comparing apples to oranges Douglas. There is nothing in scripture that would support refusing service to blacks or women, thus no religious belief would fit.
The Bible has absolutely been used to discriminate against Black people. Segregationists and slave owners used the Bible to justify their racism and mistreatment of Black people for decades. Additionally, there's no scripture that supports refusing service to homosexuals. Scripture may state that homosexuality is a sin but it says nothing about denying them service.
Tom, the Catholic Church teaches in her Catechism that discrimination against homosexuals is sinful.
But there is about rapping women and whipping of black slaves.
Mr Ferrell: 1. Timothy 2:9-15 So lady comes in with wearing gold and silk….. Hmm, grounds right there to refuse service. 2. Bible: Regarding “blacks;” yet somehow for years various passages have been used to justify their segregation and discrimination that included “refusal of service.”
BTW: the Bible makes apples, oranges, bananas, kiwi, and anything else exactly comparable as needed when it suits one’s interpreting.
While I disagree with the concept of refusing to provide services to someone based on their gender, preferences, or the like, I don't see how any court would back the plaintiff. There are too many protective laws by which a private business can get around antidiscrimination laws. All a vendor, or baker, would need to do is trespass the person from their property, telling them never to return; and the police would have to enforce it. The vendor doesn't have to give a reason beyond they don't want that person in their establishment. It's their property, similar to how one's house is private property. Maybe there need to be new laws, or amendments to the existing ones, but until that time this is the way things are.
This is incorrect. A simple claim of trespass is not enough without malicious intent. However, if a patron was asked to leave and refused to do so, that's a different matter and many jurisdictions name it differently but it is treated the same way, usually as a non-criminal violation (unless it escalates to a physical confrontation. Simply telling someone you don;t want them in your establishment does not make them trespassers. From a reverend and a lawyer.
I agree with you. If any business does not want my patronage, my money, for what ever reason, just please paste a large sign on their front door saying that and I will happily spend my money elsewhere. There are plenty of business' that want my money and will provide their quality products and services. Not sure I want to eat a cake that I forced someone to bake ... just sayin'.
ANYone on ANY grounds? So if someone wanted to refuse service to black, Asian, or Hispanic people for any of the usual racial hated reasons that would be ok with you. Should we also bring a return to "whites only" signs.
I pray this was sarcasm at least that's how I'm going to choose to see it lol