A Tennessee couple is suing the Department of Children’s Services, arguing that a state-sponsored Christian adoption agency discriminated against them because of their Jewish faith.
The lawsuit alleges that the couple, Elizabeth and Gabriel Rutan-Rams, were denied mandatory foster parent training and certification from the Holston United Methodist Home for Children, after trying to adopt a child from Florida.
According to the lawsuit, the agency initially told the couple that they would assist them, only to make an abrupt about-face upon learning that the Gutan-Rams are Jewish.
This is the first major challenge to Tennessee’s controversial new adoption law which allows publicly-funded religious adoption agencies to deny service to families on faith grounds.
Should a state-sponsored adoption agency be able to turn away families because of their religious beliefs?
Christians Only
“I felt like I’d been punched in the gut,” said Elizabeth Rutan-Ram. “It was the first time I felt discriminated against because I am Jewish. It was very shocking. And it was very hurtful that the agency seemed to think that a child would be better off in state custody than with a loving family like us.”
The Rutan-Rams, who are unable to have children of their own, found a young foster child in Florida they hoped to adopt. They went to the Holston United Methodist Home for Children for assistance in the process and to conduct their state-mandated foster training.
On the day their training was to begin, they received some devastating news: the agency only serves Christians.
The couple was surprised to experience discrimination, especially considering that the agency receives funding through Tennessee’s Department of Children’s Services to place foster children and train would-be foster parents.
While the couple is now going through another agency to foster (and eventually adopt) a teenage girl, they’re suing the original agency on the grounds of faith-based discrimination.
They’re not the only ones suing. Just last month, Holston themselves filed a lawsuit against the Biden administration, alleging that anti-discrimination laws violate their alleged First Amendment right to discriminate against potential adoptees on the basis of religion and sexual orientation.
Is Discrimination a Right?
It was two years ago now that Tennessee Governor Bill Lee signed into law a bill that explicitly allows religious adoption agencies to turn away LGBTQ couples.
In a confusing twist, that law was itself pitched as an anti-discrimination measure – the governor’s office stated at the time that it "prevents the state from discriminating against faith-based organizations as they serve and meet the needs of children."
While some states remain hostile to gay adoptive parents, there seems to be more support to prevent discrimination on the grounds of religion. Six others plaintiffs have joined the Rutan-Rams in their lawsuit against Holston, including several Christian ministers. The lawsuit was filed by Americans United, a nonprofit that advocates for the separation of church and state.
“Public funds should never be used for religious discrimination,” said Americans United associate vice president, Alex J. Luchenitser. “The law should never create obstacles that keep loving parents from taking care of children who need a home. That should certainly never occur because of religious discrimination.”
What do you think? Should a Christian adoption agency – one that receives public funding – really be able to turn away loving parents simply because they aren’t of the same faith?
Or do they have the right to only place children with parents who share their same morals and religious convictions?
83 comments
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Why are Christian's such dicks about this. They got kids who need homes. Christian's like to promote family values. Well here's a family willing to take in a kid and they refuse thinking the kid would be better off in an orphanage?
That's messed up. Would they allow Mormons and Muslims to adopt? Is this just haltered of Jews? Where's the brotherly love in this hatred?
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Read “In God We Trust” to review how, where, when, and why the GOP (currently a cult for the demagogue Trump) decided, back during the Roosevelt era, to commingle itself with Christian fundamentalists (White Nationalists, who support segregation).
The only voters, who should vote for GOP candidates, are the mega wealthy — because there are too few of them to elect any members of Congress, much less a USA president.
So the GOP ( in the 1930’s) decided to appeal to the USA’s racists, homophobes, segregationists, anti-public educationers, anti-choices, and anti-anyone elsers, if they supported health care for all, as well as making voting as easy as possible — for the poor.
Now the GOP is so intermingled with Christian White Nationalists, that it so hard to know the difference between the Jesu myth, and DJT.
Ask the next MAGA’er you encounter, to explain who’s more important to the typical MAGA’er, Trump, the Holy Ghost, or the image of what the Christian God’s Son is supposed to be.
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John P Maher
WELL SAID Mr. Dusenberry, YOU GOT A BODASIOUS OPINION HERE, HEAR YE, HEAR YE, HEAR YE ! STOP the tRUMP EVERYTHING FINISHED OVER, AND TAX THE RICH !
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
William, have you noticed that members of Trump's family don't live to be very old. I'd say that time is definitely on our side.
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Paul Donaldson
The issue is about child adoption and having a safe and healthy upbringing, the birth right of all children. It is not about ethnicity, which no real American cares about today. The majority of children, from a religious or non-religious home, elect to follow their own lead upon reaching adulthood.
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Anisahoni
What in the world is wrong with these christians? Have they forgotten the guy they call their lord and savior was a Jew? Jesus was born of an Essene Jewish mother and father, his grandparents were Jews, he followed and observed his Essene Jewish faith and cultural norms. Jesus was a rabbi and only preached to Jews. If christians want to get closer to Jesus, they should convert to Judaism and stop behaving like they are somehow superior to Jewish people and being hypocritical. Shame on them.
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Reverend Steve
They are not Christians. They are ignorant, malicious pretenders. The current American "Born Again" or 'evangelical', or 'fundamentalist', or 'conservative' so-called Christians are 'Right to Hate clubs' rife with ignorance, hypocrisy, mendacity, homophobia, xenophobia, misogyny, antisemitism and the stupidest, least-informed and most decidedly anti-christian morons to be found anywhere in the western world. There are 142 different versions of their so-called Christian bibles - each one proclaiming to contain "The word of God" - that would be a neat trick since all their 'words' are different and none of them are in the language Jesus spoke and preached in. These frauds have never read the word of God, or even seen it. They wage war on homosexuality, for instance, advocating death for gays. Jesus nave had a bad word to say regarding homosexuality in His day. These pretenders make this crap up as they go along - "Quoting" the New Testament, a book they never read and relying on multivarious supercillious wrtitten manifistations of the Hebrew work so generously misquoted and misinterpreted and to be unrecognizable in these unauthorized cartoon copies containing mere approximations of Christ's teaching - and these distorted to suit current prejedices. American evangelical malarkey is the only real 'abomination' to be found in today's faithful worship of the actual Jesus.
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Colleen McAllister
Reverend Steve, by your post I can tell that you harbor tons of hate, not the attitude a Christian would have. As an Evangelistic Christian who used to work for a Christian adoption agency, I can tell you that we had Jewish families among our into, as well as same-sex couples. Real Christians do not discriminate.
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Preacher Greg
Reverend Steve, might I suggest you study your bible a bit? Especially that one pesky verse, Matthew 1:7? A hint of the verse, it starts out with, "Judge not, that ye be not judged...."
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Lloyd Pitre
Comment removed by user.
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
This Jewish couple found the child to adopt in Florida. They needed the agency "to conduct their state-mandated foster training." State mandated foster training cannot be anti-Jewish. Christianity is a Jewish cult, and therefore should never be anti-Jewish.
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Nicholas J Page
Sue for discrimination Didn't know being a Jewish couple is not welcome in any country .Live and let live what have these people have ever done to other countries around the world Watch the film Schindlers List a very moving story about the Germans hatred for the Jews.Its not right and should be eradicated Were all the same.brothers and sisters of the Jewish community Unite
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Rev Mark D
"Sue for discrimination"
Doesn't go very far when the judge and jury are all fundamentalist or far right Christians...which as I've said is a longstanding aspect of that state. And that state is so red it's actually infrared.
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John Anderson
Speaking as a non-Christian here, the BIGGEST difference between Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i is a disagreement over who the last prophet is. Yeshua was an Essene Jew, Mohammed followed the religion his father did before founding Islam, and the Bab was Muslim before founding Baha'i. Three of these faiths acknowledge their predecessors, and they ALL worship the same deity, although they call them by a different name.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
You forgot Joseph Smith.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
John, it’s easy to figure out who the last prophet is (or, was)
Because the is no such thing as a prophet— there are only charlatans and other types of fraudsters who call themselves prophets — so, John, as there was no first prophet, nor will there be a last prophet.
The lat “Amazing Randy” offered $1,000,000 to anyone who could prove themselves to be a prophet— but none could do so.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
John, it’s easy to figure out who the last prophet is (or, was)
Because the is no such thing as a prophet— there are only charlatans and other types of fraudsters who call themselves prophets — so, John, as there was no first prophet, nor will there be a last prophet.
The lat “Amazing Randy” offered $1,000,000 to anyone who could prove themselves to be a prophet— but none could do so.
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Gary Richard Noce
Again, in these times of many lies and much hate, who do you follow? There are many children waiting to be adopted by loving good people of our creator. Anyone stading in the way of children being brought into a loving good home is not following our Lord. If they are not following our Lord, who are they following ????? Do they have any business seeing children find a home ?
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AnnaMarie Ingrassia
CHRISTIANS...NEWS FLASH...Jesus was born...lived...and died a Jewish man. A child needs a family. That family is qualified BUT they are Jews...Hypocrites...JUDGE NOT lest ye be judged...
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Jennie LeDeaux
Public money, state money, federal money should never ever use religion , gender, sexual orientation (which is a private matter not a social input issue). So sick of hearing people say what Jesus would have wanted because no one knows other than he wanted people to be loved and accepted and for us to act right. So many use him as an excuse to just be ugly natured. I don’t believe states should be allowed to make laws that are civil rights violations.
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Robert Edward Szekely
There is no "First amendment right to discriminate". (Why do imagine hearing these words issuing forth from Lauren Boebert's mouth?) How is it the child's best interests to deny them a loving home based on the faith of the adoptive parents? I was under the impression that charity and love--not discrimination--were supposed to be core tenets of Christianity, i.e., "What Would Jesus Do"? Certainly not what those hypocrites have done in His name.
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John Patrick Montgomery
What is the intent here? Clearly not the welfare of children in need of care, or means and ability would be what is taken into consideration, not one belief system or another. The pope just got done proving he is insensitive to those unable to have children, and now this organization proves they don't even care about the children at all. Is someone trying to prove they can be more unethical then thou? What is happening here?
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Paul Seldes
what faith would deny a child the arms of a loving family? The "so-called" Christians who are denying this family need to learn a little about the faith the claim to be.
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Rev Mark D
This craziness is par for the course of 200 years of Tennessee. To quote the Texas marketing authority, "It's a whole other country."
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but your opinion does not overturn the SCOTUS decision that completely destroys you https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/19-123_g3bi.pdf
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Rev Mark D
What is your point? Please explain...and do a good job, because what your position is generally, and here specifically, is very unclear. Don't like Jews, is that what you're trying to say?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Mark, did you know that Jewish people don't like being called Jews. It is an offensive word.
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Rev Mark D
Guess I'll have to remind myself not to call myself that.
What do you think about blacks calling themselves and each other the n word? I hear and see it often.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I stand corrected, Mark. However, I have been told that by some Jewish people. Maybe that's only when outsider are calling a Jewish person a Jew. My landlord is from Iran, and doesn't like being called an Arab. I suppose it's just a matter of personal choice. Some do and some don't. Shalom!
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Rev Mark D
Ah, well, that WOULD tick off an Iranian, they are Persians, not Arabs. Big difference. Muslims, yes, since the Muslims overran Persia in the 8th century and pretty much exterminated the Persian Zoroastrian faith, much to the world's loss ever since, but calling an Iranian Arab is tantamount to calling them Cherokee, it's that far off the map. Live and learn.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Everyplace outside the great Republic of Texas is in another country, Mark. And they do things differently in all 49 of those other countries, right here on this contenant. Texas is big enough for me, and we have enough problems of our own to work on, without needing to change those nation's in the mid east. I just wish they'd take Partin back to Nashville, and keep her there.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but the Supreme Court has already ruled that they can do this. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/19-123_g3bi.pdf a gay couple in Philly was denied to be an adoptive parents and they sued and lost. The Supreme Court said it made no difference if they were solely funded or accepted state money, they are protected by the 1st Amendment and no the city could not stop giving them money just because they refused.
So while I dont agree with this, what they did was legal and constitutional according to a 9-0 decision by SCOTUS. So dont bother trying to blame all christians for this (some are ignorantly going to anyway) so no matter if you like it or not you cant stop it. On saying that there is no reason to start huffing and puffing and name calling as it brings you down to below the level of the people you are not agreeing with.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
You're very knowledgeable a bout the law Daniel. You sound like you might even be the best attorney on this blog. My hat's off to you, sir.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
The Case of Fulton v. The City of Philadelphia that you talk about was not broadly decided. The very narrow opinion is that because the foster care contract with the Catholic agency, even though requiring no discrimination against LGBT persons, allowed individual exceptions granted by the Commissioner. Since exceptions could be granted they would have to ne reviewed strictly and narrowly. The City did not show a compelling reason not to grant an exception to the Catholic agency. All Justices agreed that the Catholic agency should have been granted an exception.
This why three conservative Justices were upset and wrote a separate opinion stating “ Regrettably, the Court declines to do so. Instead, it re- verses based on what appears to be a superfluous (and likely to be short-lived) feature of the City’s standard an- nual contract with foster care agencies.” Later they said the current contract would disappear like magic vanishing paper. In other words the current decision would become worthless once the contract language would change and remove the possibility of an exception to the non discrimination clause.
So the assumption of those on here saying th SCOTUS says you can discriminate in this situation IS WRONG. Read the opinion They did not rule that discrimination in general concerning religious organizations was ok. Gorsuch, Thomas and Alito wanted to make the decision broadly, but the rest of the Justices did not agree.
Finally, I regret that the Methodist agency here is affecting the United Methodist Church as a whole.
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Robert S. McCann
Just because the supreme court has ruled an specific aspect, it does not really mean that they are right or wrong. We do not all the details, so we can not know for sure which way that goes.
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Lena Marie Adams
If it's within the law then they can do it. But there is nothing stopping someone from challenging the law in court. Hopefully they will put stipulations that both parties can agree with. Divisive laws aren't for the highest good of the communities they serve which are usually diverse.
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Rev. Dennis
The big problem I see is that this agency, (https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=holston%20united%20methodist%20home%20for%20children) is masquerading as a "Christian" organization. Unfortunately they are not living the word. ESPECIALLY since they are followers of Jesus and (SURPRISE), he is Jewish. So what faith does this organization actually follow? I am sure it is one which is not of heaven but of the more heated area.
@unitedmethodisthomeforchildren #PracticingBigotryDaily #NotFollowingGodsCommandments #UnChristian #TheyNeedToCloseAndRepentForTheirSinsAgainstGod
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Lionheart
It’s sad there is a religious organization that actually has the power to place children that have not yet been religiously indoctrinated, or have already been religiously indoctrinated, into any religious family to continue the programming.
How does everyone feel with Islamic organizations having the power to discriminate placing children into only Islamic families to continue with the Islamic programming of sharing their morals and religious convictions?
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Gerardo Salazar
For the sake of argument; should a Christian couple go to the Jewish community seeking to adopt a child what would the answer be?
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
The Jewish couple were seeking state mandated education. Jews do not ask anybody to convert to Judaism. But they happily provide education to anybody who asks for education.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
Better ask a strict Orthodox Jew. I think I know the answer, but that doesn’t settle the issue.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
We ought to not mention it much, Gerardo. I can see how a lot of Christian couples would adopt Jewish children for the sole purpose of converting them into christians. Wouldn't you agree?
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Gerardo Salazar
Hello Carl Bernard, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this subject; Christianity, unfortunately, has become a sick perversion in the US in which politics, racism and a big dose of ignorance are used by unscrupulous people for their own gain without any regard for moral issues forcing those with ethics and a clear vision to run away.
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Rev Mark D
Gerardo, I would agree with you except for the part about "has become." More accurate would be "has always been."
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Gerardo Salazar
Unfortunately I believe you’re right in your appreciation so I’ll stand corrected. Always.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Yessir Gerardo, and wholeheartedly I agree with that.
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John P Maher
AS USUAL, SO WHO HAS AN OPINION ? or DO WE QUOTE SCOTUS, THE GOVERNMENT or YER GRANDMA ? JUST LIKE PEOPLE QUOTE THE BIBLE, READING OFF a PAGE is NOT AN OPINION, ONIONHEADS !
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Reverend Kurt
I have some questions for all Does one's religion or beliefs make a person more than human or less than human? Do not all beliefs and religions value and demand love? Is not family sacred in all religions? The beliefs and religions I have studied hold the greatest of all reverence for children. Am I wrong? were my studies in vain? The Rosicrucians hold that great wisdom comes from the mouth of a child. Is this not true?(I know My kids came out with great wisdom, usually at the most inappropriate times and situations) The sacred books I have read all state that adopting and raising children is a divine/universal imperative. Which to me means it transcends all beliefs ,faiths and religions. So my next question, pondering the above questions, is "what greater evil against humanity is there than denying the child the love and protection of being a member of a family?" Who feeds,clothes, raises the child? The parents or their religion?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Kurt, the Rosicrucians were very old men when they wrote Wisdom Of The Mystic Masters, and may have been senile. I first read that book when I was sixteen, in 1979. Don't take everything at face value. It helps to read between the lines. And if something doesn't sound right don't believe it, just because so and so said it's true.
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Reverend Gary
The Bible tells us that,
“a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.”
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Lionheart
Yes, I find there are similar parallels in the Harry Potter books, though obviously not referencing the religious dogma of “sin”. I’m sure there could be some other books that members could also point to with similar writings. I find philosophy fascinating! Does anyone know if there are any parallels mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita, or Vedas by any chance, or any Pagan literature?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I wouldn't think sin is mentioned in Pagan literature Lionheart. The closest thing us Wiccans come to that is karmic debt. The closest thing I can think of in Wiccan literature to the Bible stating that we should avoid bad people is a passage in the Wiccan Rede which states "With a fool no season spend or be counted as his friend".
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Rev Mark D
Gary, that's an apt quote. Good reminder.
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Dan Anderson
Oh, boy. Hearing the "so-called Christians" yelling "FREEDOM OF RELIGION" while at the same time condemning any other person practicing another faith, or no faith at all.
I heard and saw an interview at a political rally. The interviewer was asking about this issue. When asked about trust and respect for Christians: "Yes!" When asked about Jewish: "Yes!" When asked about Muslims: "NO!"
Apparently, many people still do not know that they all three worship the same God of Abraham, just from different perspectives. Ignorance does a great job of dividing societies, doesn't it.
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Reverend Steve
They are not Christians. They are ignorant, malicious pretenders. The current American "Born Again" or 'evangelical', or 'fundamentalist', or 'conservative' so-called Christians are 'Right to Hate clubs' rife with ignorance, hypocrisy, mendacity, homophobia, xenophobia, misogyny, antisemitism and the stupidest, least-informed and most decidedly anti-christian morons to be found anywhere in the western world. There are 142 different versions of their so-called Christian bibles - each one proclaiming to contain "The word of God" - that would be a neat trick since all their 'words' are different and none of them are in the language Jesus spoke and preached in. These frauds have never read the word of God, or even seen it. They wage war on homosexuality, for instance, advocating death for gays. Jesus nave had a bad word to say regarding homosexuality in His day. These pretenders make this crap up as they go along - "Quoting" the New Testament, a book they never read and relying on multivarious supercillious wrtitten manifistations of the Hebrew work so generously misquoted and misinterpreted and to be unrecognizable in these unauthorized cartoon copies containing mere approximations of Christ's teaching - and these distorted to suit current prejedices. American evangelical malarkey is the only real 'abomination' to be found in today's faithful worship of the actual Jesus.
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Lady Celynia
State-sponsored and Christian shouldn't be in the same sentence.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Ya know. Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same god. The god of Abraham. Why are these sibling religions always trying to harm/kill each other?
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Karen M Butler
Children belong in a home that is loving and caring. Religion shouldn't play a part in this issue. Too many children are in foster care and group homes. A child does not belong with someone who has committed a crime. However, they do belong to people who want them, want a family, and want to give the child a better life. Someone needs to get their priorities straight and stop being so petty.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I Say sue their ***** off. A RELIGIOUS ADOPTION agency should be able to make rules against any couple that is living an immoral life like LGBTQ. But on grounds of fath, absolutely not, especially for Islam, since they are a false religion and associated with terrorism.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Unfortunately, when you are allowed to discriminate against one group, you can discriminate against any group of people. That’s how discrimination works, whether based on sexual orientation or religion; once it’s legal, it’s legal. Get off the high-horse about LGBTQ. Discrimination against any group is wrong. Doesn’t anybody remember the six million Jews that were murdered in WWII? It’s hatred, plain and simple.
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Amy Varela
"State-sponsored Christian adoption agency"? That description is a violation of the US Constitution. Of course it should not be legal to discriminate. If prospective couples pass background checks and psychological tests, they should be able to adopt regardless of which fairy tale they believe.
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Amy Varela
Keith, you are showing your ignorance here. People in the LGBTQ community are no more immoral than the people in the christian community. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there are very likely more immoral christians than there are LGBTQ folks, perhaps even a higher percentage of immoral christians. Jesus did not discriminate, therefore discrimination is immoral. Also, the god of the bible is immoral, but that's a conversation for another day.
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Daniel Gray
SCOTUS says they CAN do this, but it still does not make it right https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/20pdf/19-123_g3bi.pdf
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Rev Mark D
SCOTUS is not God, and SCOTUS tends to change back and forth, depending on the price of power and prejudice. So which is it you are arguing for? By the way, if you're answer is as terse as before, nobody will understand you or give you much credit.
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Lionheart
But all religions are false organizations Keith, with them all believing and indoctrinating others to believe in something where there is no demonstrable evidence to support their dogmatic beliefs. In this case its conditioning immature children's minds to accept that it’s ok in life to believe in mythical supernatural things where there is no evidence to support that belief. It prevents them from using logical reasoning using critical thought.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Socks isn't a bad word Keith. They would have posted that.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Keithette, can you explain to us the meaning of the word gaydar? And try not to be too campy in giving your explanation.
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rebadams7
If they are limiting their services, this should be clearly stated on all their information and intake documents. If not and they just decided their mission, then others would be grandfathered in. Just waking up one day and deciding to be xx-only does not negate their responsibilities
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Perßonally Reb, I cànt fit into anything smaller than xx. I wish I could wake up in the morning, and but on just one x. I'm back to working on it though, so maybe in a few months. I expect to be able to ride a bicycle on the Seawall shirtless before the end of summer.
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John P Maher
WATCH THE MOVIE * GONE GIRL, GONE ! BY the AFLECK BROS. JUST A THOUGHT !
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Alan Diamond
Of course they don’t want this innocent child to become part of the group that created COVID. And don’t forget that they have a satellite that is causing forest fires. Need I remind you that they were responsible for the Black Death and killed the one man who could bring peace and tranquillity to the world? Yep. Tennessee is going to show those people that enough is enough.
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Tom
Are you being sarcastic or do you actually believe in Jewish space lasers?
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Alan Diamond
Absolutely sarcastic.
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Ronald Jay Stark
Brilliant.
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Sheila Norman
God loves everyone! If people that are of different faith loves the Lord with all their hearts God will give thee the desires of their hearts Prayer is needed all around the world. True faith is trusting the Lord for changes and follow through by His hand upon thee
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Michael Barton
If there are other agencies, enough to cover the gap, then why does it matter if they discriminate based on Religion? They were given public funds, but how much? Someone gives you a couple dollars, you don't get to own their business.
The gov. gives public money away, but how much control should that give them? You get a loan from the bank, does the bank get to control how you handle your business 100%? No. No.
But, things to discuss; if this org was approved by the State for a while, and no one said anything. Then it's really the State at fault. They need to better audit who they list for these type of trainings.
I don't feel any damages are award just because someone said no to you.
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Marc Warren Mauss
Aren't all Christians Jews? 2000 years ago, Jews were waiting for the Messiah. Some of those Jews accepted Jesus as the Messiah and others didn't. But at the time, those who followed Jesus still considered themselves to be Jews. Why do we not think of today's Christians as "evolved Jews"?
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Ronald Jay Stark
I left a comment below but your comment is quite on point. Well done! Thanks.
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John D. Partin
It's very sad that there is an atheistic and ungodly Pagan secular society that indoctrinates children into their "thinking" and way of living. Your not having any problem with that brainwashing and indoctrination because it is for what you advocate and "think" everyone should believe doesn't make it right, but that indoctrination is the other side of the coin, which you leave out of your bemoaning and consideration and is also sad. Children are going to be taught one way or the other and not left to decide until they grow up what they choose to believe, by your side or ours, but will be led in one direction or the other. You believe as much as Christians do "Train up a child in the way that he should go and when he is old, he will not depart from it", but only differ on what you want to train children for. "You're going to serve somebody" as Bob Dylan sang. So, why not lead children in the best way of love for God and their fellow men and humility and virtues, when it is taught correctly, instead of the hatefulness and ungodliness taught by atheism?!!
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Lawrence Evans
A consideration not being taken into account on this topic thread, No rational person would condone ANY adoption agency/group (State or privately funded) to KNOWINGLY allow, much less facilitate, ANY adoption by individuals who, by their own admission, belong to ANY group that DELIBERATELY mutilates the genitals of infants & openly allows the molestation of those infants!! Yet that is EXACTLY what is occurring in this case! Even worse is the fact that the couple suing in this case is claiming religious discrimination BECAUSE they belong to a group that OPENLY preforms RITUAL MUTILATION & MOLESTATION of INFANTS as part of their "Faith"!! This IS INSANE!!! ANY association with ANY group,("Faith" based or otherwise!) that, even suggests, that it's OK, in ANYWAY, to MUTILATE or MOLEST ANY CHILD, should be permanently blocked from ANY adoption!!!
CHILD MOLESTATION & ABUSE ARE CRIMES!!! All adults involved in these CRIMES should be charged, tried and IMPRISONED!! ALL children from any, similarly affiliated, families should be IMMEDIATELY & PERMANENTLY taken into protective custody! Infant GENITAL MUTILATION and SEXUAL MOLESTATION are CRIMES!!! Claiming these deplorable acts are "OK" as "Protected Religious Rights" is A GROTESQUE & DISGRACEFUL ABUSE of the First Amendment in order to get away with CRIMES AGAINST CHILDREN!!!
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Ronald Jay Stark
RELIGION and FAITH are separate things. We, Christians, Jews, Muslims, all share the same faith as we are told and pray to the same Lord of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. Religion is how the faith is practiced. Another way to look at religion is BRAND.
There is also differences in ethnicity. Jewish people, throughout history, have faced discrimination for one reason or another. They are so used to being disliked or hated they teach their children to avoid such encounters and go somewhere else. There are Christians today who erroneously hold Jews responsible for Jesus'(a Jew himself) death! It is so prevalent that John Dominic Crossan as written a book "Who Killed Jesus?" just to dispel such notions.
My point is, this couple knew the risks and are ignoring the lessons of their youth; "If you're disliked go somewhere else".
If the agency is completely funded by a church, they can make the rules. If the agency takes state funding they cannot discriminate. I don't understand why so many so-called Christians feel they have the right to discriminate against anyone they don't like when the guy they supposedly follow preached the opposite of such behavior. One might think they only use the label to justify their own hatred and legalize discrimination.
Right wing Christians are the greats threat to our democracy. They want a Putin/Kin Jung Ung type "leader" who will allow the USA to become a Christian only country.
Respectfully, America has never had a "Democracy" and, hopefully never will! America, as a nation, has, from it's very beginning, been a democratic(adj) Republic (noun) in order to PROTECT the rights of ANY and ALL persons who happen to be a minority!
A "Democracy" (noun) is a strict "majority rules" form of government, under which, the rights of everyone who is not WITH the majority (Member of The PARTY) has NO RIGHTS because THE PARTY (majority) "voted to remove their rights for "Wrong thinking/Ideas"! If you think this sounds like China and North Korea, you are correct!
A "Democracy" is a form of Govt. in which ONLY the majority have rights and ONLY if they agree with the leaders of The PARTY!
In a "Democracy" : women's voting rights= GONE! minority rights?= GONE! property rights?=GONE! SLAVERY REINSTATED??= 100% legal! child trafficking? = What color, age, & sex of "Enemy of Democracy" child would you like to BUY comrade? Organ harvesting from "dissidents" and "Wrong Thinkers" ??? = EASY MONEY & MUCH more profitable than "Re-education" camps! State run brothels stocked with the wives and children of ANYONE the Party leaders decided needed "re-education"?? = Also 100% legal & considered "excellent for maintaining morale & ensuring RIGHT THINK among the masses!"
Conversely, a democratic(adjective) Republic (noun) form of Government), as we have here in America, is a form of government who's sole purpose is to defend the Rights and Freedom of ALL ,from arbitrary & capricious infringements of their Rights, from the "majority of the moment" (who ever is currently in power!) The protection of EVERYONE'S Rights was/is so crucial, the founders "enshrined" it into the "Bill of rights & The Constitution" and set those protections as the highest "LAW OF THE LAND" ! A "democratic Republic" compared to a "Democracy" are so dynamically different from each other, one could easily sum up the comparison by stating they are "Good verses Evil, respectively, when it comes to protections of individual Rights & Freedom! Additionally, You should also know that the particular phrase you used, "(Blank group or idea) is a great threat to our Democracy", is specifically designed by the media to indoctrinate people, who don't know better, into believing we have a "Democracy" (the type of Government). ALL of the mainstream media outlets/ channels WORLDWIDE are wholly owned and controlled by only 5 (FIVE) Individuals!! This is a specific psychological manipulation, done intentionally, to dupe the masses into abandoning the protections of their democratic Republic for the lies & hidden tyranny of "Democracy". This is done because a Democracy is simple to manipulate and corrupt for the benefit of those in power! Historically, no "Democracy" has survived very long, as the people, eventually discovering it's hidden tyranny and lies, have always had to resort to FULL VIOLENT REVOLUTION in order to regain their rights and always at great cost in their own lives!
On a third and last point that is not being taken into account on this topic thread, No rational person would condone ANY adoption agency/group to KNOWINGLY allow ANY adoption by individuals known to mutilate the genitals of infants & to openly allow the molestation of those infants!! And yet that is EXACTLY what is occurring in this case! Even worse is the fact that the couple suing in this case is claiming religious discrimination because they openly belong to a group that OPENLY preforms RITUAL MUTILATION & MOLESTATION of INFANTS as part of their "Faith"!!
Their open association with ANY group or "Faith" that subjects INFANTS to mutilation and molestation should be, at a minimum, permanent blockage from ANY adoption and , ideally, should be grounds for IMPRISONMENT of all adults involved and the immediate removal of ALL children from any, similarly affiliated, families!