Pride month has officially begun… and so have the lawsuits.
An employment court in the UK has dismissed a discrimination lawsuit brought by a Christian man who argued that Pride symbols and LGBTQ+ visibility in the workplace violated his religious beliefs and harmed his mental health.
The case centered around a man named Mark Jennings, who professes to be both an evangelical Christian and a practicing Roman Catholic. Jennings had accepted a position with the UK’s Department for Work and Pensions in 2024. Before beginning the job, however, Jennings reportedly demanded that Pride imagery, LGBTQ+ symbols, and even the use of pronouns by coworkers be prohibited in his future workplace.
In court, Jennings argued that “He also sees the use of the rainbow by the LGBTQ+ community as co-opting a symbol of God and Christianity.”
He claimed that his religious aversion to Pride symbols, like rainbows, is so severe that exposure to these could trigger “autistic shutdowns.” He claimed to the court that he’d had these traumatic “shutdown” reactions in response to seeing a Pride flag at a bus stop near his home, and another from seeing rainbow laces on an athlete’s shoes during a soccer match.
When the Department stated that it could not enforce the removal of these symbols, Jennings suggested that the office be divided into “zones” to keep him safe from seeing the iconography, or that perhaps he could work remotely.
Ultimately, the Department indicated that it found his requests unreasonable and that they could not accommodate them, and Jennings responded by rejecting the job offer and suing for religious discrimination.
According to court’s findings, Jennings argued that “gender ideology” was “the work of the devil,” and claimed that exposure to Pride iconography caused him severe anxiety.
The court ultimately agreed that Jenning’s demands were unreasonable and did not find that he had been unlawfully discriminated against.
Judge Daniel Wright ruled that requiring employees to remove Pride symbols or restrict expressions of LGBTQ+ support could itself expose the employer to discrimination and harassment claims. The court also found that Jennings’ request to work remotely was incompatible with the face-to-face responsibilities of the role.
The ruling touches on an increasingly common legal and cultural tension: where does religious liberty end when it begins infringing on the dignity, visibility, or equal treatment of others?
For many religious Americans — including countless ministers ordained through the Universal Life Church — the answer is not especially complicated. Religious freedom protects the right to hold and practice personal beliefs. It does not necessarily grant the right to erase others from public life or demand that workplaces conform entirely to one person’s theology.
That distinction matters.
Modern workplaces are often made up of people from dramatically different backgrounds, faiths, identities, and worldviews. Some employees wear crosses. Others wear hijabs, yarmulkes, or Pride lanyards. In pluralistic societies, coexistence usually depends less on universal agreement than on mutual tolerance.
The court appeared to recognize that balancing act in this case.
Importantly, the ruling did not punish Jennings (who had allegedly sued two other organizations on similar grounds in the past) for being Christian or for holding conservative theological beliefs about sexuality and gender. Rather, the court found that his proposed accommodations would have restricted the rights and expression of others in the workplace.
That distinction may become increasingly important as courts continue grappling with disputes involving religion, LGBTQ+ inclusion, disability claims, and workplace culture.
The case also arrives during a broader period of political and cultural conflict surrounding Pride visibility. Across both the United States and Europe, debates over rainbow displays, LGBTQ+ education, and corporate Pride campaigns have intensified in recent years. Supporters often frame Pride symbolism as an affirmation of inclusion and equal dignity, while critics sometimes view it as ideological messaging they do not wish to endorse.
But in this case, the court drew a fairly clear line: seeing symbols associated with people you disagree with is not, by itself, unlawful discrimination.
What do you think?
252 comments
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Rolando Couce
PRIDE IS ONE OF THE 7 DEADLY SINS
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Lady Mutt Cat
Pride is not the problem. Excessive pride, hubris, is the problem. The Greek gods knew.
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Pastor George Day
Lady Mutt Cat
In reference to the seven deadly sins, “evil thoughts” may be classified as follows:
Physical – thoughts arising from nutritive, sexual, and acquisitive appetites.
Emotional – thoughts stemming from depressive, irascible, or dismissive moods.
Mental – thoughts generated by jealous, boastful, or hubristic states of mind.In the fourth century, the monk Evagrius Ponticus reduced the logismoi, or forms of temptation, from nine to eight, as follows: Γαστριμαργία (gastrimargia) – gluttony; Πορνεία (porneia) – prostitution, fornication; Φιλαργυρία (philargyria) – greed; Λύπη (lypē) – sadness, rendered in the Philokalia as envy or sadness at another's good fortune; Ὀργή (orgē) – wrath; Ἀκηδία (akēdia) – acedia (apathy, neglect, indifference), rendered in the Philokalia as dejection; Κενοδοξία (kenodoxia) – boasting; Ὑπερηφανία (hyperēphania) – pride, sometimes rendered as self-overestimation, arrogance, or grandiosity.
This list was later translated into Latin by John Cassian, one of Evagrius’s students, and incorporated into the Western tradition's spiritual pietas or Catholic devotions as follows: Gula – gluttony; Luxuria/Fornicatio – lust, fornication; Avaritia – greed, avarice; Tristitia – sorrow, despondency; Ira – wrath; Acedia – sloth; Vanagloria – vanity, vainglory; Superbia – pride.
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Rev. BH
Once again gang, if I may, please note who you are replying to! Our replies don't always directly follow. Amen, all.
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Brian H. Miller
I don't understand the whole pride thing. How can you take take pride in something you had nothing to do with? I was born white. I had nothing to do with that so, I don't take pride in being white. I was born heterosexual I had nothing to do with that. I was born a USA citizen, I had nothing to do with that.
I take pride in accomplishments. I'm proud that I worked hard enough to buy a house. I'm proud I graduated from school. I'm proud I've maintained numerous friendships for over 50 years. Do you see where I am going here?
If you are gay, chances are you were born that way and had nothing to do with it. Again, why take pride in something you had nothing to do with?!
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Cindy Mortensen Stain
If someone is experiencing discrimination for something they cannot control, the result is feeling diminished, put down, inhibited, powerless and shame.
Think of the word PRIDE as… “Take pride in who you are. There’s no shame in being born the way you were born.”
It might not be the perfect word according to your definition but surely you can empathize with the experience of being discriminated against for something you have no control over. If not, consider yourself lucky.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Brian,
Have you ever been teased or looked down upon because of how you look, where you grew up, how much money your parents did or did not have? Has anyone complained that your hair/ eyes/ skin are the wrong color? Have you ever been rejected because you weren't pretty, handsome, smart, or witty enough? These are the things the LGBTQIA++ people go through every day. Constant ridicule, bullying, disparagement, over something they cannot change. This month gives them a chance to look in the mirror and be proud.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
You hit the nail on the head.
I experienced bullying at school from both peers and teachers, endured ridicule in the village, and faced threats of being expelled from a foster family solely because I was coming to terms with my same-sex attraction and gender dysphoria.
Although it has not ceased entirely, the situation has improved due to broader acceptance.
I wish to clarify that I adhere to biblical principles regarding human sexuality, viewing my circumstances as a disorder. Nonetheless, society shows little mercy, and some churches are no different.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pastor Day,
I have as well, and am often misgendered and regarded as LGBTQIA++ simply because of my looks and build, even though I identify as a straight (ally) cis-woman. I have a ministry that targets those who have been wounded by religion, and a great number of those are from somewhere on the LGBTQIA++ spectrum. Personally I don't see it as a binary, but as a continuum in both sexuality and gender, as we all have components of both ends of the spectrum in sexuality (homp/heterosexual) and gender (male/female).
I hope you have found peace with it all, including a place of worship that shows mercy and acceptance.
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Pastor George Day
Brian H. Miller
Good point. And why should LGBT individuals endure rejection and discrimination when their identity is beyond their control? They already carry significant burdens. Perhaps Pride serves as a response to these challenges. What are your thoughts?
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Raul Armando Garcia
Maybe it the fear and respect for our God who is mighty and jealous . Remember Soddom and Gamorra, and others who went against God's will. May God have mercy on all of us! Amen
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Jennifer Rebecca Lovsey
LOL!! Your religious beliefs stop where others' rights begin.
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Lady Mutt Cat
If your god is so nasty and judgmental, why would you have anything to do with Him?
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Pastor George Day
Lady Mutt Cat
This question isn’t worth the spotlight.
But on Judgment Day, I’d happily trade places—just to see the look on your face!
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Sir Lionheart
I never understood why it’s a jealous god. What’s it worried about? Is it concerned another god might come along and take over? 🤭
🦁❤️
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Lady Mutt Cat
Their god doesn’t like competition. He thinks he’s a better cod than all others, just like so many of his followers believe that they are his chosen people. 🤣🤣🤣
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ServantOfJudgement
We have to elevate our thinking above the ape and animal Lionheart. It's not jealousy over a food bowl or a mating rival busy in the bush.
It is the deep emotional connection that confuses and perplexes the animal kingdom.
Oh how I long for the time spent with my own wife, son, daughter and grandson. Jealous not in anger or covetness, rather the deep emotional desire to be in fellowship.
"Mrs SOJ, will the young lad be joining us for dinner this evening? No, he'll be entertaining the in-laws. Oh... Bummer..."
Jealousy=Love.
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Pastor George Day
Sir Lionheart
Better late than never… I was starting to think you’d been abducted by coffee-loving aliens!
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Sir Lionheart
As a god, he sounds to be a very naughty boy and if I were his dad I would take away all of his principalities and dominions until he gets his act together. There would be no more omnipotence or omniscience for him.
🦁❤️
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Travis A. Lee
So funny that almost everyone cannot count or tell colors A "recognized" rainbow has SEVEN, yes, 7 Colors, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, INDIGO and Purple. Something the LGBT+ Flag DOES NOT HAVE. So it is NOT a "rainbow". You know who DOES also use the Rainbow? Buddhists. Dreamtime Practitioners. Hindus. Three of the OLDEST Religions in the WORLD. At least a THOUSAND years BEFORE that plastic Religion of Christianity who claims the "rainbow" as theirs because the Bible tells them so. No. Let's LOOK at the specific Reason for the Rainbow In the Bible. IT is a Covenant that "God" will Not destroy the world again with a Flood. YOU all got that right? He will NOT destroy the world with a Flood when the rainbow appears. He will remember the covenant. He does NOT "GIVE" the Rainbow to ANYONE. IT is a Covenant to ALL LIVING CREATURES. But Christians being the arrogant, self-righteous people who think THEY ARE the "Chosen" ones, what a laugh.
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Amy Varela
The only reason any of the Abrahamic faiths whine about the LGBTQI+ folks "stealing" the rainbow is because of the ridiculous story of Noah, which is very unlikely to have ever happened.
You are mostly correct about the colors of the rainbow versus the colors of the Pride flag. ROYGBIV. Red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet are the wavelengths of our visible light spectrum. Purple does not have a wavelength. There are also a lot of different styles of Pride flags with different color stripes. I think the arrogant religious "right" just needs something to whine about since they have no evidence that their god exists.
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Christopher Weymouth
I not here to judge no one. But, to walk and let people see by my walk in life it be better way.to hate on others not being a Shepard of God.
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ServantOfJudgement
I'm arriving to the conclusion that pride symbology is a form of hate speech pointed directly at Christianity. It is the swastika to the jew.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Too bad you’re wrong SOJ. Being LGBTQ+ has nothing to do with upsetting Christians, yall do that on your own by not minding your own damn business. Us existing just as we are has been a part of humanity far longer than Christianity has been.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Sorry kiddo, but it's not the "Swastika to the Jew". The Swastika represented, not only hate, but mass-murder. It was proudly worn by those that forced millions into gas chambers and hunted for millions more to enslave, torture, and kill.
The only ones who view it as "evil" are closed-minded individuals like yourself who are filled with the same hatred that the ones that wore that tainted symbol, a symbol that used to represent the hindu, as well as the native american, iconography of eternity and peace, once held.
Unlike "Good Christians", those wearing the colors of Pride have never mass-murdered due to religion, or gender, or sexual orientation.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
yet
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
There is no "Yet" to it. This is verified modern fact. Yes in ancient history, Christians / Catholics WERE persecuted. They were also a minority, a religion just barely starting out. And, sadly, most of them were also slaves. But that was way back then. Now they are repeating history by attempting to do to "minority religions", such as pagans, what was done to them in the ancient Roman era.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
you are very wrong here. there are "tons" more church shootings, job persecutions and the like increasing every day with trans/gay groups adding fuel to the fire. " yet" is very real!
I would include them here but you would just delete them again so what's the point?
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ServantOfJudgement
Bridget, if we're talking physical death then the Islamic flag is the swastika for the Christian. That one has killed millions of Christians and counting. I'm talking spiritual genocide though. That's the real travesty here.
A Christian believing homosexuality is good and accepted by Jesus is the same as one believing drunkenness is good and accepted by Jesus. Convincing a Christian he's fine if he's a drunkard will result in rejection by Jesus. He's said no to both.
I want to stress, this does not apply to unbelievers. This is strictly a Christian affair.
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ,
Sorry, but your analogy would have been on point if you had compared the homosexual with one who was born with Down's Syndrome or Cerebral Palsy (and it would have been equally offensive as what you said), because just like them, they were born that way. There are treatments and ways to convert/ change a drunkard, but you can't change someone who's gay any more than you can change someone born with anything they can't change.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
That was my point early on in this blog.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
I'm pretty sure he'll lose entirely on this one. If he doesn't like being around / seeing LGBTQ+ things at work or in public, then he should work for a Religious company that follows HIS personal religion. I, myself, am Pagan - to be candid Shamanic Tradition, and I'm Bi-sexual. Yes I like both men and women equally. Yes I AM married to my husband, but I had more than a few girlfriends over the years, too.
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Pastor George Day
Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
That constitutes adultery. Is your husband content?
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Alexander Clarke
Bible thumpers are the problem.
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Rev. RRW
Maybe we should be careful about letting partisan media narratives — from any side — shape how we see each other. As human beings, we all have biases, and it is easy to gravitate toward the side that confirms what we already believe without doing deeper research.
Whether someone is Christian, non-Christian, LGBTQ+, conservative, liberal, or somewhere in between, I think it is healthier to approach the conversation with an open heart and an open mind. We should try to understand more than one side of the story before reaching conclusions that simply reinforce our group identity or personal assumptions.
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Jerry Dean Silverwood
My God....a box of crayons must render him catatonic!
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
lol...good one humor can disarm all!
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Lady Mutt Cat
Excellent decision by the court. It’s absurd to think that you have the right to dictate how N entire workplace runs because you are a bigot.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
Yeshua Ha'Messiah is Hebrew from the Tribe of Judah (a Jew) and taught us obey the Hebrew Law of what you call "Old Testament" which is still active because "a testament is of no effect until the death of the testor." YHWH our Father is the Testor and not dead. "an heir can not inherit his father's legacy until the Father dies." "we are heir's with Christ". If you don't believe or follow the Hebrew God YHWH (or His Son Yeshua you call Jesus) then look at the other deities throughout history. Zeus replace Kronos after his death. Thor replace Wodin/Odin after his death. Quetzalcoatl replaced Nahuatl after his death. On and on. YHWH is about to be replaced by Trump.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Moderators, stop deleting truth and factual reporting I give here. My comments all have references leading to factual evidence. You are only proving your immature, childish ways of changing/deleting facts just to make yourself feel better instead of learning to becoming better by not continuing destructive behaviors!
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Lady Mutt Cat
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Comment has been removed.
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Johnnie Roberte Lambert
I would rather see Pride Flags everywhere than that orange cretin's face and name on everything. Happy Pride Month Everyone!!!
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Hate hate hate hate...that's all you know how to do. Actually READ the responses and attempt to understand what is really being said before throwing your name-calling like a monkey throws his feces.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Amen, Johnnie. I completely agree with you.
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Johnnie Roberte Lambert
Blessings to you Barbara. I agree with you 100%. xtians have become so demoralized by this regime especially, that they call themselves "Followers of Jesus Christ" instead. This country is supposed to allow freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Isn't this why it was founded? Instead the government is now pushing xtian beliefs onto everyone and demonizing anyone who doesn't agree with them. I don't think that's what the founding fathers wanted.
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Joe R Day
I was born in 1954 and raised in Texas. When I was 10, they found a body in a dry riverbed... The body was naked and the investigation found that someone had wrapped a chain around his genitals, hooked the other end to a pickup, then dragged him to his death... Because he was gay. Here's a few facts about Texas laws in 1954. "Felony Criminalization: Under Texas Penal Code Article 524, consensual sexual acts between individuals of the same sex were classified as "sodomy". Those convicted faced up to 15 years in a state penitentiary." "Widespread Entrapment & Harassment: Local police forces frequently used undercover officers in public spaces to entrap and arrest gay men. This fueled constant fear of exposure, loss of employment, and familial rejection." "Harsh Police Raids: Police frequently raided known gay and lesbian bars and nightclubs. In addition to sodomy arrests, individuals were often arrested on arbitrary morals charges, such as "lewd conduct" or cross-dressing." "The Lavender Scare: Paralleling the McCarthy-era Red Scare, the 1950s saw federal, state, and local governments aggressively fire and blacklist gay employees, framing them as security risks and moral threats."
Now, we are facing a return to those terrible policies... To this day, I still don't understand WHY folks who are hetero are so afraid of Gays and Lesbians. WHAT drives their fears? So, I asked google for an answer...
"Threats to the Status Quo: In patriarchal systems, a person's worth is sometimes measured by their adherence to traditional romantic scripts. When lesbians form relationships entirely independent of male validation, or when gay men reject traditional masculine stereotypes, it can destabilize the norms some straight people rely on for their self-worth," "Fragility of Labels: Strict social conditioning makes some straight individuals overly concerned with how others perceive them. The fear of being incorrectly labeled or perceived as anything but strictly heterosexual can lead to avoidance of the LGBTQ community."
And last, but not least: "Internalized Conflict: Psychological research has shown that some homophobia is driven by personal discomfort with one's own sexuality. Individuals with suppressed same-sex attractions or those raised in highly authoritarian/rigid environments are sometimes the most vocal in their prejudice."
I have lived with gay men and lesbian women and found that they are not so different from us. They care about their jobs, care about their partners and pets and the most telling thing about them? They don't care if someone is hetero. They just want to live their lives in peace... Finally, common ground...
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Lady Mutt Cat
And Texas is still a rotten place.
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Sir Lionheart
The month of June is also “Straight Pride Month”. This is the month where we all get to thank a straight person for LGBTQ+ people’s existence. 🫢
Yayyyyy! Thank you all heterosexuals. 🙌🏻
🦁❤️
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Robert James Ruhnke
Oh look. A pompous blowhard. Every month outside of Pride is already that, kitten butt. There is no need for straight pride, but I’m sure you’ll come up with asinine and inane ideas to bandy about.
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Sir Lionheart
Grabbing and holding your attention to respond is reward enough, Mr. Ruhnke.
🦁❤️
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Rev. BH
If attention is what you seek, Lion.
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Rev. BH
Pride flags, ribbons, colors, signs do not cause me to have a hissy fit .But as you can see here, it does to some. I am more bothered by the images of Fearless Leader Trump on coins, walls, golden statues, trading cards, cell phones, $250 bills and other doodads and junk he sells. Reminds of Mao posters and paintings everywhere.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
He was wrong. Our rights end where another person’s rights begin and his homophobia couldn’t be accommodated. Bigotry cannot be accommodated in the workplace because it puts hardship on the employer, the other employees, and the public. He never had legal standing here. He can work elsewhere with people who share his beliefs and the fact he chose not to do so shows he just wanted to make a scene.
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Rev. Frank H Kalebich
Well put, Lisbeth kieran bushey
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Brian H. Miller
I don't care what you think you are or how you achieve an orgasm. I just don't understand how you can take pride in something you had nothing to do with.
You can be born male, female, white, black, gay, whatever. You had nothing to do with it. How can you take pride in something you had no control over?
I understand taking pride in accomplishments but, not something you had no control over.
Pride is a slippery slope!
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Michael Hunt
When society has criminalized and even killed members of the LGBTQ community, being proud of who you are instead of feeling the shame and fear society has tried to foist upon you is an act of resistance. Pride is celebrated for the LGBTQ community because they no longer have to hide the way they were born. They can be public about their romantic partner just as a heterosexual couple can be and, in my opinion, that's a great reason to celebrate.
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Lady Mutt Cat
How about being proud to be yourself in a hostile world? That’s definitely something you have control over.
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Michael S. Russell
As well you should not push your religion on others. You want your freedoms but would reject others theirs. That is not how us Ministers should think. You should understand not everyone agrees with your views. As religions force themselves to be dominant, others are trying to force people to understand and accept them. Right and wrong. Good and evil. These are points of views and change from religions and geographic locations. This is something that should have been taught to you when you pursued being a Minister. I, myself, am not a member of the LGBTQ community. But I have seen both sides of this discussion try to force their point of view. Both are wrong to do so, but both seem to have the need to force their recognition. I pray for peace and freedom for both.
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Jannetje Eleanore Van Went
It's probably good that we are trudging through all the sides of these systems together...the Earth is round has no sides and will keep rolling over this all...there are so many things we could take from text and apply to real life, if we made a movie about it, it would be confusing, funny, offensive and misunderstood...everyone would be screaming over each other to be heard ..who would want that for real life scenarios?
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Denise Johnson
"Alphabet Agenda"? Exactly what is that? Folks just trying to live their authentic lives? Celebrating themselves and others when they are persecuted by others? You call it a sin. Why? I don't see anyone trying to make others agree with them. I do see them sometimes trying to explain themselves to others who persecute them, which no one should have to do. Do you have to explain or defend yourself for simply being you and living your beliefs in the manner you want too? Live and let live. "Turn the other cheek" as they say. Go on being you and living your life and allow others to be themselves and live their lives.
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Roy S. Thorpe
I have said it before and I keep saying it! The old testament is a collection of Hebrew laws, sayings and stories! The new testament is about the life of Christ! Some of it has been modified by its writers but remember Christ preached LOVE, just as God is a loving God so would-be Christians clean up your act and spread some love! Nothing else!
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ServantOfJudgement
Mr Thorpe,
Let me help you out a bit. The old and new testament are intertwined and inseparable. They each refer to one another as a function of self interpretation. The bible interprets itself.
Did Jesus spread love when he called the Pharisees children of Satan and condemned them to Hell? Let's not give our Lord only one leg to stand on, rather properly repeat what he said by words and deeds.
A Christian is behaving properly when he's angered by the rainbow being perverted into a symbol for a sex religion. We can critique him for how he handles the anger but not for feeling it.
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ and Man of Many Doctorates,
The pride flag is NOT a religious symbol, any more than a pink ribbon for cancer awareness. It is a symbol of the persecution of a marginalized group who fought for and won (and now is in danger of losing) their rights to exist and be regarded as human beings with the same rights as other human beings in this country. If this bothers you as "co-opting" a religious symbol of God's promise to never destroy the earth again, so should The Wizard of Oz bother you for creating such a beautiful song about one of the most beautiful structurs that nature provides. The rainbow has never been used as a religious icon, by this group or anyone else. They just chose the colors to identify the diversity within their group and to honor what God has given them (as the green in the flag sighifies nature). If it interests you, a quick Google search will give you the meaning of all the colors.
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ServantOfJudgement
Patricia, I know the meaning of the colors. The lgbt2qia++ definition is wrong. They're free to use them as they please. However, once it hits a church it becomes blasphemy and an abomination.
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ,
You said, "...once it hits a church it becomes blasphemy and an abomination." I guess it depends on the doctrine of said church. For those that use literal translations of translated works and those that choose to ignore the commandment "love your neighbor as you love yourself," the message being sent by those churches is that the pews are full of self-loathing people who really need Jesus message.
Another question, if the LGBTQIA++ community and "is free to use them as they please" (your words, not mine), and they use the colors of the rainbow for their flag, how can their interpretation in what they design be wrong? If they wanted the yellow stripe to signify bananas instead of sunlight, they were "free to do so."
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Lady Mutt Cat
Who are you to speak for churches that aren’t your own?
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Lady Mutt Cat
His doctorates are probably paid for. He made fun of my mention of the Liberal Catholic Church and was too ignorant to even google it. So he made a major fool of himself, as do most of his comments.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
...and like I said 4 ties, the liberal catholic church is NOT RECOGNIZED by Rome so we do not deal with them.
BTW, the "BISHOP" on the website you provided is not on any record I can find of even being a priest let lone a bishop.
once a swing and a miss!
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Patricia Ann Gross
Dr. D,
The Catholic Church, even though they may like to think they are, are not the final authority of what does and does not exist. Scream all day long that because the Vatican says so, it doesn't exist, and it will continue to fall on deaf ears.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
I'm not screaming but folks here just can't accept the difference between it's liturgical exists and a physical one.
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Michael Hunt
Now you're moving the goal posts. You said the Liberal Catholic Church does not exist, you were proven wrong, and now you're saying it doesn't exist liturgically. All this despite making a post where you state, "While it retains Catholic-style liturgy, sacraments, and apostolic succession, it diverges significantly from Roman Catholic doctrine in ways that preclude recognition by Rome" which seems to suggest they do practice similar liturgy.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
learn to read!
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
that was a cut and paste from the Vatican it means they are doing catholic things by non holy orders/ordain people lying about being priests.
its fraud, its liturgically illegal and people have killed others for much less!
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Patricia Ann Gross
And Chicken Little insisted the sky was falling.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Wow I guess you told me....lol
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Lady Mutt Cat
🤣🤣🤣🤣 nice try, Buddy. It still exists.
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Lady Mutt Cat
🤣🤣🤣🤣 nice try, Buddy. It still exists.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
yes they are paid for in full off my student loans and over 12 years of study and 40 yrs of service.
Jealous are we???
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Lady Mutt Cat
Jealous of you? Hardly. Have you checked out the Liberal Catholic Church that you claim doesn’t exist yet?
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
How many times do I have to say it. YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS Rome doesn't recognize it so it doesn't exist...my God your dense!!!!!!
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Lady Mutt Cat
Says the man who is credentialed by an organization that embraces all faiths. How about you withdraw from your ULC membership?
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
You have NO idea who credentials me or how many I am associated with.
Just go away. Its your best and really only option.
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Lady Mutt Cat
And says the man who said I made up the Liberal Catholic Church. Trying to redeem yourself didn’t work so well, now did it?
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Lady Mutt Cat
OMG you still do not understand how liturgical actions work. Do yourself a hug favor and go to the website for the catholic church and put in that church you love so much. The exact words come back that it is not recognized by the Vatican and therefore DOES NOT EXIST!!!
The same thing I have said now 7 times, but you will not accept it! I pity anyone that comes to you for ANY religious advice and are a danger to others!
Here is THEIR MESSAGE right off their own website: "Does the Vatican recognize the liberal Catholic Church ?”
No, the Vatican (the Holy See) does not recognize the Liberal Catholic Church (LCC) as part of the Roman Catholic Church, nor is it in communion with the Pope.
Key Distinctions The Liberal Catholic Church is an Independent Catholic body that originated from the Old Catholic movement in the early 20th century. While it retains Catholic-style liturgy, sacraments, and apostolic succession, it diverges significantly from Roman Catholic doctrine in ways that preclude recognition by Rome:
Doctrinal Differences: The LCC incorporates Theosophical beliefs (such as reincarnation and karma) and teaches that all religions are equally valid paths to God, a stance contrary to exclusive Catholic dogma. Ordination Practices: Unlike the Roman Catholic Church, the LCC ordains women and openly practicing LGBTQ+ individuals to the priesthood and episcopacy. Authority: The LCC rejects the dogma of Papal Infallibility (defined in 1870) and the supreme jurisdiction of the Pope, which are fundamental requirements for communion with the Holy See and does not exist .
Web link https://search.brave.com/ask?q=does+the+vatican+recognize+the+liberal+Catholic+Church+&source=quick-answer-followup&conversation=0936c47bb6f6989b99b8b8c64ac462c583d9
You have been told/instructed in this now 8 times and have shown everyone here how uneducated you truly are!
You have absolutely no redeeming qualities in your interactions with me and others that I have read, and you seem to live to cause evil strife with me and others. You are combative and rude on a scale that I never though possible for ANY ordained minister.
Either act like a respectful adult or leave.
Do not interact with me anymore.
You should surrender your ULC creds!
Is your life that bad that all you feel you can do with it is cause misery and conflict with all that you interact with?
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Michael Hunt
Just because the Catholic Church doesn't recognize them as an official denomination doesn't mean the LCC doesn't exist... In fact, I think you just confirmed that it does exist. The Catholic Church doesn't recognize the Methodist Church but it definitely exists.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
That's apples vs oranges The Methodist church doesn't use the catholic church's same claiming they are just a relaxed version.
The composite of the LLC "Liturgically" does not exist. When they are composed of what are fake bishops and priests but using Rome's name they are excommunicated and therefore DO NOT EXIST. Its in the catechism. Its like a "AutoZone store that says its really Sears. Its is not and for the rules of Rome, doesn't exist.
It's their words I presented here. I have answered this over 11 times. No one here reads the copy and pasts I presented.
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Michael Hunt
So you now get to dictate what is a real religion and which don't exist?
It doesn't matter if the Roman Catholic Church does not recognize them as Catholics, they still exist as a separate sect of Catholicism. Even if their liturgy is not the identical to other Catholic Churches, they still exist.
If the Catholic/Methodist church analogy doesn't work for you, consider this one: There are many Baptist churches out there who do not support or follow the beliefs and actions of the Westboro Baptists, but the Westboro Baptist Church still definitely exists.
Is this really that complicated?
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
for you it is.....yes, you walked right in to that one!
i didn't determine anything; the catholic church did; Rome did.
please read before you try to make up crap!
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Michael Hunt
So you're just going to ignore the majority of my comment?
Rome doesn't get to decide what is a religion and what is not. It doesn't matter if the Roman Catholic Church doesn't recognize the Liberal Catholic Church as part of their religion, the Liberal Catholic Church still exists. No matter how many times you try to say it doesn't, no matter how you try to move the goal posts, the LLC exists.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
yes because I've answered all of it several times.
try this analogy...its going to be harsh so in there...
a false news report comes out naming a person that lives in you city and state with the same name is convicted of child molestations. Do you have any rights to refute it? ...to deny it?.... Of course you do.
This is Rome's way of making sure that all that steal the term and claiming to be Catholic churches are not fooled. They are taking donations in the name of Rome; they are fraudulently performing some sacraments coning people that ARE Catholics into believing they are receiving actual blessed sacraments and so on. This is why they say "they do not exist!"
people have died for religion and this will create even more violence in an era riddled with it. people give in desperation life savings thinking they are helping the real catholic church. imagine when you are finally told they are fake and you gave it all away to a collection of fakes!
Do you finally understand what is happening here?
Dr. D
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Pastor George Day
Dr Dennis Chevalier, MDiv, PhD, DDvin, ULC honorary DD
It appears there is a misunderstanding on your part.
You reference Roman Catholic authority within the ULC, which is inappropriate as the ULC represents Radical Protestantism, granting individuals the freedom to seek the divine on their own terms, even beyond Christian dogmas.
Furthermore, there seems to be a lack of knowledge regarding how the Holy See—distinct from Rome, which is the capital of Italy and not of the Vatican—engages with Independent Catholics and Sedevacantists/Sedeprivationists.
Researching the Polish Catholic Church reveals that the Roman Catholic Church permits its members to receive communion there, despite it also being an Independent Catholic denomination, same as the Liberal Catholic Church.
It is advisable to refrain from obtaining honorary degrees from non-Roman Catholic denominations, since you seem to be of that belief, and to familiarize yourself a bit more with pastoral and ecumenical Roman Catholic theology.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Comment has been removed.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Interesting that you’re now obsessing that the LCC does not exist. Your original comment was that I made it up to prove a point. I obvious not make it up regardless of whether you find it legitimate. The FACTS show that you just spouted off and are trying to prove a point that you cannot.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
it has nothing to do with me saying anything. But your continuing lies are the issue! There is NO ORIGINAL COMMENT FROM ME SAYING THAT!
I also told you to stop contacting me. You are a stalker.
You need professional help!
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Lady Mutt Cat
I have a screen shot of exactly what you said. Unfortunately there seems to be no way to post a photo here. Your exact words were “There you go making up terms to make “YOUR” point. I clearly made up nothing.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Dennis Chevalier, MDiv, PhD, DDvin, ULC honorary DD
As a professional therapist, I can assure you that Lady Mutt Cat is not the one in need of professional assistance. Conversely, your vehement reaction toward her appears to stem from being proven wrong, which, from my perspective as a therapist, reveals more about your own issues and need of affirmation than it does about the legal status of the Liberal Catholic Church you are attempting to disprove.
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Robert S. April
So far according to the state of Texas doctor Dennis is a real thing The only honorary degree he has is from ulc at the of his creditial string but he has a real Dr of Dvinity degree from NCU a real PHD from KWU, masters and Bachelors from CTU yet of So far I don't see anything about you except you're a blowhard desperately trying to matter. He was right, You guys are nothing but fakes so desperate to make the point that you'll just lie and lie and lie.
He said prove what you claim...well?
And after extensive on his and the backbiting that everyone pushes on him the only thing he has been doing and several others have made this point as well is that he wanted to make sure that people The truth is he knew it Truth is he thought truth that he could prove so that you wouldn't burn in hell and do you think he's making a joke about it
This proves you are completely lost!
Dr If I ever get a chance to meet you I will definitely buy you a dinner and a drink
April
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Lady Mutt Cat
Says the man who originally said that I made up the name Liberal Catholic Church and who keeps trying to figure out a way redeem himself once he realized that the Liberal Catholic Church actually exists, whether Rome recognizes it or not. And by the way, Denny himself is not a Catholic.
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Lady Mutt Cat
If your LinkedIn blurbs are correct, most of your “service” was being a cop. And boy does it show. The funniest part in LinkedIn is you saying that you’re an interfaith minister. You clearly don’t have any regard for what the word interfaith means.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
I have over 50+ years study and service. I have all those cute peices of tiolet paper from various "Authorities" my Yeshua Ha'Messiah taught me they don't mean a thing. So-called "Christians" divide the scriptures into "Old Testament" and "New Testament" when actually these only one Testament. Yeshua is a Jew and a Hebrew/Israeli that's more than a religion it's a blood heritage. A family group. I was taught to read and write the scriptures in Hebrew from old enough to read and write. I also asked too many wrong right questions of the rabbi. The English Bible is okay kjv the most accurate. However, it doesn't translate well without a cultural understanding. Point is "Man shall not have sex with a man as he would have sex with a woman. It is an abomination and both shall be put to death and their blood shall be upon them." Hebrew Mosiac Law same law Jesus followed. Only Jesus made it clear "let him without sin cast the first stone" this man is casting (virtual) stones claiming he is without sin. LGBT community don't recognize it as sin, Apostle Paul said let those type people be, "given unto their own desires".
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Dixon, In agree!
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross, sister, read your Bible—preferably before turning the Book of Revelation into a Facebook comment section.
Sex is not for recreation, the rainbow was not invented by modern politics, and ranting at everyone you disagree with a doesn’t magically make your 'progressive' stance attractive!
From Balaam to Ashtoreth to Moloch, Scripture has plenty to say about idolatry, sexual immorality, and the sacrifice of children. But if you’re going to invoke the 'Progressive Bible Translation,' at least let the Bible speak in context.
And when you get to the part about context, don’t skip it like it’s the boring genealogy. 😂
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pastor Day,
I have posted on this thread many times, and I'm not sure which one you are objecting to, so I'll just respond to your comments.
Your first paragraph/sentence makes no sense at all. I never made a comment, either here or on Facebook about the Book of Revelation.
I also NEVER said sex was for recreation, neither does the Bible, as far as I can tell, however, there are certainly some stories about that. Look at Song of Songs if you need a jolt. I also did not say the rainbow was invented by modern politics, but since this bothers you so much, I DID say it has never been a religious symbol, at least, not in Christian circles. The rainbow was a gift from God to remind us that he would never destroy the earth by flood again.
I will NOT apologize for being progressive, I'm in good company. Jesus was progressive, liberal, loved those who had little, told those who had plenty to share and help take care of others, even if they do not believe the same way you do (read about the Good Samaritan if you don't believe me.)
There are hundreds of copies of the same stories in the Dead Sea Scrolls and they don't all match. So the stories have changed since they were first spoken and then again by the scribes that intially wrote them down, and then again when another scribe copied it, but then you dispute anything that BAS does, so I expect you to dispute that as well.
Yes, context matters. The original stories were told by people who did not have the technology or knowledge we have the privilege to have learned today, and the scientific methods to understand what they told others from divine inspiration, that years and tellings later, someone managed to write down, and they still got it almost identical to what science later proved as far as the order of the creation of the universe. They did not know or understand things like DNA, billions of days or years, or basic anatomy beyond what they could see on the outside and what they saw when they slaughtered animals for food. The Bible is stories inspired by God that told the early inhabitants of the Middle East how God created the earth in ways they could understand. I like to think after several thousand years that we are a bit more sophisticated than they were.
Again, why the hostility?
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Amen
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
seeing the number of "like" hits on Roy S. Thorpe comment shows just how uneducated most of these "ministers" are.
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ServantOfJudgement
I was surprised with my understanding of the Bible before I believed it and after I believed it then began studying it.
It really is true what it says about itself. You must believe it in order to understand it. Unbelievably satisfying to experience the contrast first hand. Also, impossible to explain to the unbeliever.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Very true
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Rev. BH
Dennis Chevalier "seeing the number of "like" hits on Roy S. Thorpe comment shows just how uneducated most of these "ministers" are." And seeing the number of "like" hits you got for that statement shows how most of these ministers are more educated than you think.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
NOPE
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Lady Mutt Cat
Liberal Catholic Church Uneducated indeed.
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Larry Dean Powell
We were given ONE job: "Love one another as I have loved you".
Some folks love to BASH one another, saving their 'pure love' only for those with whom they agree on everything. Memo to them: that ain't 'Christian'.
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James Riggle-Johnson
This guy is just trying to win a lawsuit to make money. He’d probably be better off just accepting the job. I get that he doesn’t want to see any LGBTQ imagery, but they’re not asking him to look at pornography. Nor are they asking him to join.
It’s like asking someone to remove their cross because it offends someone. And if pride displays are making you question your sexuality—the problem is not with the display.
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D'Ette L De Jarlais
If we are all children of GOD, who are we to judge or condemn or prohibit anyone's lifestyle or sexual preference. The Bible is antiquated and I am tired of religious people picking and choosing phrases from the Bible to suit or rationalize their "beliefs". Jesus is love. GOD is love. The rest of the bible is hearsay. Open to many interpretations because it was translated from many different languages, who is to say it was translated correctly. I am opposed to all forms of organized religions. Jesus didn't need money given to him when he preached. He walked and spoke to the people who would listen. That is how Christians should live their lives. Not by condemning other people who are different in ANY way. How can anyone possibly be a "Christian" and act in a condescending manner to someone who's beliefs or lifestyle is different. Live and let live. Keep your own backyard tidy and be kind to everyone. Jesus loved his enemies.
Everyone one needs to be kind to one another.
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Amy Varela
I agree that everyone should be kind to one another, but I reserve the right to meet others where they are. If they are in any way bigoted, they get minimal kindness from me. Bigotry, racism, homophobia, etc do not deserve respect.
That said, I have been waiting for decades for anyone to show evidence of the existence God. If an all-powerful being exists, it should be able to let everyone know the truth. As far as "having faith in a god, or Jesus, or angels", no thanks. Faith is what you have when you don't have evidence; and if you have evidence, you don't need faith.
But yeah, people should be nice to everyone. Some people don't include everyone, and can therefore, be excluded from niceness.
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ServantOfJudgement
D'ette,
If someone's sexual preference is children, you wouldn't judge them would you?
This is why I speak the future with LGBTIQCAPGNGFNBA++MAP.
Yes, Jesus loved his enemies. They crucified him. Jesus is going to deliver them to hell. He said so. We are not all the children of God. Jesus said so.
You don't need to believe or follow the Bible friend. Just don't misquote it.
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Allysha Boothman
There is a massive difference between two consenting adults and literal children. To compare the two is a bad faith argument, and you know it.
Not to mention, the president of the United States has been accused of that exact same crime, and you seem to be propping him up in your comments. It seems like the call is coming from inside the house, buddy.
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ServantOfJudgement
Allysha,
Oh I know there's a difference. Still one must judge the pedophile. We Christians are constantly scolded and told we're not to judge by people who constantly judge.
We humans Must judge one another for many reasons. We all do. It's not a bad thing depending on what exactly were judging.
Were a nation of presumed innocence untill proven guilty. I've heard trump eats babies too. Every single Biden voter gave the man a pass and even explained away his own daughter saying he took inappropriate showers with her as a little girl. I wonder why you don't talk about that? Why is it ok for Biden to shower with a little girl?
I have the power lefties don't. I can critique my president with zero fear. The left isn't permitted to do that unless it's time to throw them away. Then they will.
My president is an adulterer like Clinton and Kennedy. He says he's a Christian like Biden and Obama claimed but none of them let it show. I wish we had great men with integrity to choose from but we don't. All are dirty dogs. The good thing about Trump is he's getting illegals out but not enough and not fast enough. I'm happy he blew up those drug boats and I wish he chop more government jobs and spending.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Jimmy Carter was such a man, but not so good of a President. He was a much better statesman and spokesperson once he left office.
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shiningwolf7
Oh, servant of judgement, please, get a grip!
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
facts don't matter to this crowd I have discovered.
To the Participants and Moderators,
After spending considerable time observing and participating in discussions on this forum, I feel compelled to address a recurring problem that continues to undermine the quality and credibility of the conversations taking place here.
Many contributors in this blog present themselves as authorities on Christianity, theology, biblical interpretation, Church history, and religious doctrine. Yet what becomes increasingly apparent is that a significant number of these individuals demonstrate little if any familiarity with the disciplines they claim to represent. Rather than engaging in serious scholarship, many discussions devolve into exercises in self-justification, selective interpretation, and the rewriting of inconvenient facts or they reference alleged proof that no one has or can prove yet they write as if they were right there witnessing it.
A troubling pattern has emerged. When a participant presents a scriptural reference, historical source, or documented theological position, the response is often not a careful examination of the evidence but an attempt to explain it away. Clear texts suddenly become unclear. Established meanings become endlessly fluid. Historical facts become subject to personal preference.
For example, when discussing a passage such as Leviticus 18:22, one would expect a conversation grounded in textual analysis, historical context, linguistic scholarship, and the longstanding traditions of interpretation. Instead, what frequently occurs is an endless series of unsupported assertions designed to arrive at a preferred conclusion regardless of what the text actually says.
There is a profound difference between interpretation and revisionism. Interpretation seeks to understand a text honestly. Revisionism seeks to make a text say what one wishes it had said. Too many discussions here appear to embrace the latter. What concerns me most is not merely the quality of the debate itself but the effect these discussions have upon readers. Many visitors come to forums such as this seeking information, guidance, and understanding. They often assume that those presenting themselves as knowledgeable have done the necessary study and are speaking from a position of competence. When speculation is presented as scholarship, opinion is presented as fact, and personal preference is presented as doctrine, readers are gaslighted and misled. I have witnessed some so-called ministers here cannot even count to 15 without making that act sound like it’s a “TON”.
Theological inquiry is not a game. Religious scholarship is not an exercise in inventing meanings to accommodate contemporary preferences. The texts, traditions, languages, historical documents, and teachings that have been studied for centuries deserve to be approached with intellectual honesty and respect.
I have devoted many years to the study of service before self, theology, religious history, and biblical scholarship. I recognize that sincere people may reach different conclusions on difficult questions. Honest disagreement is never the problem. The problem arises when evidence is ignored, sources are misrepresented or lied about, and conclusions are determined before the investigation even begins.
There is a difference between saying, "I disagree with this teaching," and claiming, "This teaching never existed."
There is a difference between questioning a historical interpretation and pretending the historical record says something it does not.
There is a difference between scholarship and rationalization.
The purpose of serious religious discussion should be the pursuit of truth, wherever that truth may lead. That pursuit requires humility, discipline, evidence, and a willingness to be corrected when the facts do not support our assumptions.
If we genuinely care about educating others, then we owe them more than personal opinions disguised as expertise. We owe them honesty. We owe them accuracy. We owe them the discipline to distinguish between what the sources actually say and what we would prefer them to say.
Only then can meaningful dialogue occur.
Respectfully, Dr. D
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Patricia Ann Gross
Especially those who continue to add MAP to the LGBTQIA++ community. That is a fallacy that is not supported by any scientific studies.
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Steven Ferrell
If the alphabet bunch are really secure in their lifestyle, they would not need everyone else approval or affirmation.
Stop forcing the alphabet agenda on everyone.
Live your life in sin if you wish, but stop trying to make everyone agree with it.-
Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
We just want the right to exist freely in public the same as everyone else. We want the same legal protections as everyone else. That’s all. The only “agenda” we have is to receive those rights and we have to be visible to do so. We’re not forcing anyone to believe anything. We’re just asking for the same respect as everyone else. You don’t have to be LGBTQ+ if you don’t want to be because you weren’t born that way. You can’t force someone to be LGBTQ+ any more than you can force the sun to rise in the west and set in the east. You also can’t force us to be cishet. We’re not harming anyone by existing like everyone else does. The only harm being done is by people who are trying to force us to be something we’re not or people who don’t want us to have the same visibility as others.
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Michael Benjamin Roberts
Steven, you are missing the point. No LGBTQ+ individuals or supporters are forcing anything on anyone. They are not trying to make anyone agree with anything. They have a constitutional right to celebrate their own identity just like any other affiliation group. Think public displays of the Christmas season, Muslims special clothing, dietary restrictions of Orthodox Jewish people eating in a restaurant etc. The Constitutional words of We The People mean everyone, not just a select few, have the right to individual freedoms—life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. For instance, a sane Muslim simply seeing Christmas decorations in public spaces does not (or should not) take that symbol of celebration to imply that it is forcing Christian indoctrination on anyone. Publicly displayed Christmas decorations does not in any way seek agreement, approval, or affirmation from anyone or anything. Peacefully celebrating identity, religion, or beliefs isn’t asking permission, approval, or affirmation. It is simply people peacefully celebrating themselves and fellow humans who believe and live the same way as they do. At the end of the day, what is the harm? As long as people are practicing what they believe, why do those who don’t agree believe they have a right to stop or control who other people love, who they marry, what they celebrate, or how they identify. People who don’t share certain religious, cultural, or identity symbols have the right to look away. They do not have the right to control the beliefs, customs, and identity of fellow citizens—with violence or with the law. The dominate group trying to control and excoriating “the other” is neither Christian nor Christ-like.
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Melissa Thomasson
most christians r living a life of sin -adultery and fornication is a grievous sin in the bible. We find people on the pulpits telling you and me how to live , while they have 2 and 3 marriages under their belt while their first spouse is still alive , which violates 1 corinthians 7:10 . It also violates the scripture if someone desires the office of a leader he must be the man of one wife. Lgbt are not trying to make anyone agree with their life. I do see people like yourself yearning for acceptance in your sinful life of divorce and fornication. Have a blessed day .
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Lady Mutt Cat
I think there is more sin in denying gay people their happiness than there is in sleeping with someone of the same sex.
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Rev. BH
Steven, do you feel forced to change your lifestyle? If you're secure in yours, you shouldn't be so bothered by those who make other choices. You don't have to agree (your word) with the LGBTQ+ community, you do not need to give them "approval or affirmation", you simply need to live your life as you choose and give the same courtesy to others.
Don't be paranoid. They are not out to get you.
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ServantOfJudgement
Not exactly true rev bh.
Lgbtq2qia++ creeps into all spaces of life. Even into a church that preaches things in direct opposition to the mass movement. That's not paranoia that's rainbow septs to a church, right on to a dude wearing lipstick preaching xems version of the Bible.
One ounce of opposition results in hate beyond hate. Literally a satanic response to biblical adherence.
There's no hate like Christian love. Right?
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Rev. BH
servantofjudgement, it is always difficult in replying to you as understanding your posts is at the least baffling. What are "septs"? What is "xems"? Who is this "dude wearing lipstick"?
The LGBTQ+ community has no affect on my choices and causes me no concern. There are far more pressing issues throughout our world here and abroad. Wars, Ebola, global warming, daily shootings, a White house of incompetents, rising costs, hackers, etc. I have a Ukrainian friend who lives in constant terror. These issues worry me far more than a gay neighbor going about his life.
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ServantOfJudgement
Steps. Rainbow steps to a church by a mass movement that doesn't indoctrinate or infiltrate. Xem is a pronoun. A dude wearing lipstick is a gay preacher giving xems version of the bible. I'm hip with all the pronouns now that my employer had me take a class on gender sensitivity. I passed with rainbow colors.
Again and again I say I don't care what people do. I care when they push it to people who don't want it. I care when they teach it school. Identical to all religions. I got into a pillow fight with a gay dude in a hotel room in Chicago while the wife was in the phone. I truly don't care one ounce at all who a brother wants to get busy with.
My point of all of this is the lgbt2qia++ mass movement is creeping into everything.
Classes on gender sensitivity for crying out loud.
I can only make fun of it now.
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Rev. BH
soj, can you provide a photo of this "dude wearing lipstick ,,, preacher"? Or is this a self-created image to frighten yourself and stir controversy?
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Patricia Ann Gross
Rev. BH,
He was probably talking about a M2F Trangender Woman pastor. They exist in several denominations, but I doubt there is one at SOJ's church. Representative Sarah McBride (D-DE) often gets the same irreverent and disrespectful characterization, as well as dead-naming. Even by her colleagues who should all know better.
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F. Martin Aller-Stead
Mark was looking for notoriety. He was merely told his problems aren't anyone else's problems. He may believe what he chooses, and cannot force his beliefs on others. A good, fair, decision by the Court.
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Chris
Sounds like he was just looking for notoriety, since he had done this twice before. I'd wager he has no problem wearing his giant cross for all to see, regardless of how others might feel about it. As a pagan, I've had to work with some who would flat out try to convert me instead of doing their job. I had to put up with it. Bottom line, Christians are not being persecuted for being Christian. They can be persecuted for not following Christ's teachings. Big difference.
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DeElla J Kirkpatrick
Chris, I do not disagree with your comment. As a Christian, I believe in treating everyone with kindness and respect because it is not my place to judge. I chuckled recently when I saw a truck bumper sticker (along with several pagan stickers) that read, "Dear God, please save me from your followers." Sometimes people forget that while we all have our beliefs, they are based in faith. Faith is important and yet it is based on something we cannot prove. It is only what we believe. We all believe we are right, but if we could prove it then it would be fact and not faith. God Bless you and Blessed Be!
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Reverend Paula Copp
Easy fix. Don’t like pride month? Don’t celebrate. Don’t like gays? Leave them alone. (They don’t want you around either.) Don’t like gay iconography… oh, well… get over yourself. We in the LGBT have to put up with yours for 11 months out of the year. And before folks go biblical, the christian savior said NOTHING about homosexuality.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
wrong again. Moses and others said plenty about being gay. did you ever actually read the bible?
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
— Leviticus 18:22
A similar statement appears in Leviticus 20:13.
This is one of the primary biblical texts cited by Christians and Jews who hold that same-sex sexual relations are contrary to God's design.
However, there are a few important points that Christians debate:
The prohibition comes from the Law of Moses, not from a recorded saying of Jesus.
Christians differ on how Old Testament laws apply today.
For example, Christians generally do not follow many ceremonial and dietary laws found in Leviticus, such as restrictions on certain foods or fabrics. The question becomes whether the prohibition on same-sex relations is a ceremonial law tied to ancient Israel or a moral law intended for all times.
The New Testament also contains passages often discussed in this context. These include writings attributed to Paul the Apostle in passages such as Romans 1:26–27 and 1 Corinthians 6:9–10.
Traditional Christian interpretations have generally understood these passages as prohibiting same-sex sexual activity, while some modern scholars and denominations argue for different interpretations.
From the perspective of the Catholic Church and most historically traditional Christian churches, the Bible teaches that sexual intimacy is intended for marriage between a man and a woman. At the same time, the Church teaches that every person, including those who experience same-sex attraction, possesses inherent dignity and should be treated with respect and charity.
So if someone says, "The Bible never mentions homosexuality," that would be inaccurate. The Bible does contain passages that have traditionally been understood as addressing same-sex sexual relations. What is true is that Jesus is not recorded as specifically discussing homosexuality during His earthly ministry, which is a narrower claim.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
The original language said “MAN shall not lie with BOYS as with a WOMAN, it is an abomination”. The passage is condemning HARMING CHILDREN. The current language didn’t appear until the 1940s. Old Bibles printed before that time in German and other languages said men and BOYS, not men and other ADULT MEN.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
To the Participants and Moderators,
After spending considerable time observing and participating in discussions on this forum, I feel compelled to address a recurring problem that continues to undermine the quality and credibility of the conversations taking place here.
Many contributors in this blog present themselves as authorities on Christianity, theology, biblical interpretation, Church history, and religious doctrine. Yet what becomes increasingly apparent is that a significant number of these individuals demonstrate little if any familiarity with the disciplines they claim to represent. Rather than engaging in serious scholarship, many discussions devolve into exercises in self-justification, selective interpretation, and the rewriting of inconvenient facts or they reference alleged proof that no one has or can prove yet they write as if they were right there witnessing it.
A troubling pattern has emerged. When a participant presents a scriptural reference, historical source, or documented theological position, the response is often not a careful examination of the evidence but an attempt to explain it away. Clear texts suddenly become unclear. Established meanings become endlessly fluid. Historical facts become subject to personal preference.
For example, when discussing a passage such as Leviticus 18:22, one would expect a conversation grounded in textual analysis, historical context, linguistic scholarship, and the longstanding traditions of interpretation. Instead, what frequently occurs is an endless series of unsupported assertions designed to arrive at a preferred conclusion regardless of what the text actually says.
There is a profound difference between interpretation and revisionism. Interpretation seeks to understand a text honestly. Revisionism seeks to make a text say what one wishes it had said. Too many discussions here appear to embrace the latter. What concerns me most is not merely the quality of the debate itself but the effect these discussions have upon readers. Many visitors come to forums such as this seeking information, guidance, and understanding. They often assume that those presenting themselves as knowledgeable have done the necessary study and are speaking from a position of competence. When speculation is presented as scholarship, opinion is presented as fact, and personal preference is presented as doctrine, readers are gaslighted and misled. I have witnessed some so-called ministers here cannot even count to 15 without making that act sound like it’s a “TON”.
Theological inquiry is not a game. Religious scholarship is not an exercise in inventing meanings to accommodate contemporary preferences. The texts, traditions, languages, historical documents, and teachings that have been studied for centuries deserve to be approached with intellectual honesty and respect.
I have devoted many years to the study of service before self, theology, religious history, and biblical scholarship. I recognize that sincere people may reach different conclusions on difficult questions. Honest disagreement is never the problem. The problem arises when evidence is ignored, sources are misrepresented or lied about, and conclusions are determined before the investigation even begins.
There is a difference between saying, "I disagree with this teaching," and claiming, "This teaching never existed."
There is a difference between questioning a historical interpretation and pretending the historical record says something it does not.
There is a difference between scholarship and rationalization.
The purpose of serious religious discussion should be the pursuit of truth, wherever that truth may lead. That pursuit requires humility, discipline, evidence, and a willingness to be corrected when the facts do not support our assumptions.
If we genuinely care about educating others, then we owe them more than personal opinions disguised as expertise. We owe them honesty. We owe them accuracy. We owe them the discipline to distinguish between what the sources actually say and what we would prefer them to say.
Only then can meaningful dialogue occur.
Respectfully, Dr. D
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Patricia Ann Gross
Dr. DC,
There is a Biblical Archeological Society that has a blog, if you would rather engage with a group that is interested in scholarly study. I have used it several times in my PhD program for Theology and Leadership. It has about anything you would ever want to know about the Dead Sea Scrolls and a lot of discussions about Ancient Judiasm. It is apparent that this group is not interested in deep scholarly dives you are looking for. You can look here: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/blog/
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Thank you Pat, I will check it out.
Dr. Denny
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
I was a member of BAS but chose to leave because it appeared to be focused on undermining and dismantling the biblical faith.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pastor Day,
That would be because you either 1) believe the [translated] Bible to be inerrant and infalible or 2) deny that Christ was Jewish. BAS applies archeological concepts to understand the culture, nature, and understandings of the people in the time the Scripture was written. Their work with the Dead Sea Scrolls is exceptional. The truth of the Bible does not lie in individual words or verses, but in the overall message presented which has to be taken in context of the times. You cannot know that withoug studying that time.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
Thank you for your instruction.
1) I am a student of theology and have already earned an Associate Degree. Archaeology in Biblical Studies is part of my academic training, and I do not need to address your observations about my beliefs.
2) I am a Jew, and you are essentially lecturing a Jew on the Jewishness of the Messiah. I belong to a Conservative/Reform Jewish community, and my instructor is a Conservative rabbi. I am also a Messianic rabbi, ordained by another Messianic organization. Rabbi Marc welcomes me because Reform Jews are permitted to believe in Yeshua. As a Messianic, I am also a Christian.
I deeply value the context of my studies in archaeology, referring to original sources and accurately understanding the cultural background.
BAS, like all organizations, has an agenda. Initially, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but after attending more workshops, I realized their stated goal was to use archaeological data to challenge any biblical account—most of them being former priests or ex-believers.
Therefore, while I appreciate your advice, I would encourage you to take a closer inventory yourself. Do seculars truly wish to teach biblical Jewish context to a Jew?
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pastor Day,
Please show me the same respect you are asking of me. You also don't know anything about me or my background. I am a Progressive Protestant Christian, working on my PhD in Theology and Leadership in a Catholic program that uses BAS as a source. Amy Jill Levine, an Orthodox Jew and New Testament scholar contributes heavily to BAS. I know her personally having taken an exegesis course in the Gospel of Matthew from her. She was also recently elected to the as president of the Catholic Biblical Association, so your characterization of its contributors does not apply to all of them. What you realize as their "stated goal" is not stated anywhere. Anyway, biblical accounts should be challenged, and when they cannot live up to the challenge, they need to be reinterpreted. Even the creation story has been challenged by the theory of evolution, which when put in historical context is found not to be contrary to scientific evidence.
I apologize if I came off as "lecturing" to you about your beliefs, but that was because you first challenged my statement about BAS without providing any reasons why, so I had to make assumptions.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
This does not alter my opinion of you or the BAS contributors in the slightest—if anything, you may gain some credit for being a Protestant, though you remain yet a progressive one.
The fact that an Orthodox Jew works for Catholics speaks volumes.
I rest my case.
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr D
There are very few bible believing Christians here. In general everyone already has their own opinion on things and rarely will someone change their perspective. Don't forget, when God gives them over to their desires, the truth is the last thing they want to see.
You can correct a misquoted verse a thousand times to the same person and you'll not see a change. Like a bowling ball in the gutter, rarely will they pop out. I've seen a bowling ball pop out once but never a person.
Don't let it get to you, it's just how it is.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
What "gets" to me is all the deleting of my posts that I took the time to research and post for others in providing factual information but as you suggested, no one care.
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Lady Mutt Cat
But you couldn’t be bothered to research the Liberal Catholic Church. So much for your keen, insightful research.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
thank you.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
“Before you declare what Leviticus ‘really’ means, check the original text. It’s been pretty consistent for 3,000 years.”
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
“Before you declare what Leviticus ‘really’ means, check the original text. It’s been pretty consistent for 3,000 years.”
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ServantOfJudgement
Lisbeth,
Folks who don't believe the Bible get themselves into hot water when they quote it to people who believe and study the document.
You've quoted is a whish of what it says, repeated by everyone in favor of homosexuality trying to justify it with the Bible.
The original Hebrew text says a Man shall not lie with a Male... meaning any age.
The Bible is remarkably clear on this topic.
It doesn't really matter unless you're a Christian.
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Cindy L Edgar
I hate to inform you but there are many of religious beliefs out there not everybody believes in that one God thing and a lot of people have read that Bible and decided that that Bible was a joke so yes if you have read the Bible then you have the right to come back at the people that put other people down that are Christians and I am not a Christian by any means so stop judging remember that's a verse in your Bible it says thou shalt not judge thy neighbor. I am a pagan High priestess minister and our religions been around for a very very long time so stop picking on people because you believe in that one pretend book.
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ServantOfJudgement
Cindy,
I appreciate that there are tons of other beliefs. As I've said, nobody has to believe, agree with or follow the bible. I'm definitely not picking on anyone. I will however correct misquoted and misinterpreted verses from the Bible. That's what I did for Lisbeth.
Did you know that the Bible says you'll think it's a joke? Amazingly accurate!
The cherry picked phrases you're looking for are Love thy neighbor and Judge not lest ye be judged. Of course they don't mean what you think they mean but you guys sure love to say them a lot for not believing them.
Good luck High priestess!
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Amy Varela
I don't think the bible is a joke. I think it's a collection of myths and fairy tales, many of which were taken from earlier mythologies. It could not have been written or inspired by any being that created the universe. It was more likely to have been written by ignorant, Iron Age goat herders who were intimidated by the powerful imagery of the female deities in all of the other religions of the time. My evidence being Genesis, chapter 1, verse 16, the thing about the greater light and the lesser light. We can probably all agree that the sun is the greater light that rules the day. But the lesser light that rules the night? It can't be the moon, for several reasons. ~ the moon is not always visible at night; ~ the moon is sometimes visible during the day. ; ~ the moon is not always 'full'; and the main reason: THE MOON IS NOT A LIGHT! The creator of the cosmos would have known that. An all powerful, morally superior deity would have told those goat herders this information so that when the moon was not visible, they would be "inspired" to sacrifice virgins. That's not the only thing that makes the bible ridiculous, but it's the one that anyone with a reasonably intelligent mind understands.
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Lady Mutt Cat
If you’re a Christian, why are you obsessed with the religious law of the Jews? Try absorbing the New Testament. The Old Testament is a dreadful, violent book. Thankfully, your god has evolved. You should, too.
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ServantOfJudgement
Mutt cat,
The new testament and old testament are inseparable. God has not changed in the slightest.
A thorough unbiased study reveals this in simplicity.
The new testament says the same thing as the old.
God says no to homosexuality.
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Lady Mutt Cat
The nasty desert Jewish warrior god, you mean.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
that's with a capital "G" Get it right.....lol
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Pastor George Day
Lady Mutt Cat
What nonsense! This proves you know nothing of the Tanakh!
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Lady Mutt Cat
I’ll try to cope, Georgie.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Factual data should matter to everyone that took on the mantel to teach others their faith which is supposed to be why we are here.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Man of many Doctorates,
You are wrong again. She said the Christian SAVIOR said nothing about homosexuals and you quoted several things from the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) which outlines the Jewish faith before Jesus was born. Have you forgotten that the Christian savior is Jesus? Jesus also said he changes the law to two commandments: Love God, and Love your neighbor as yourself.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
Once again, a BAS secular seeks to instruct Jews and Christians. The Ten Instructions were inscribed on two tablets by the very finger of God, which was Yeshua. As the author of the Decalogue, He is the ultimate authority to assign a table of contents to the tablets. Did BAS claim to have added two more commandments to the original ten, or to have replaced them? Most likely not—they are far too intelligent to make such a claim.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pastor Day,
Once again, you mischaracterize me. Read my previous reply on the BAS topic. For clarification on what Yeshua said, read Matthew 22: 36-40, then reread verse 40, and you will have your answer. BAS didn't say it, it is right there in whatever translation you want to read, NRSV if you want the most accurate translation, but if you prefer KJV, that will work too.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
Did you say you are a Humanistic Protestant?... Oh no, sorry, a 'progressive' one!
Your responses or lectures using Brit Chadashah passages on me do not change anything—you lack understanding of the subject matter.
I am a Messianic Jewish rabbi and a Protestant pastor, with a Reform Jewish birthright to Israel. I am part of a mixed Jewish community of Conservative and Reform Jews, and my instructor, Rabbi Marc, is Conservative.
I am also the founder of the Theology of the Body Church, which is part of The UpperRoom Network (made up of both Gentiles and Jewish Christians).
I know my theology, though it seems you have some gaps in knowledge. God wrote the Decalogue on two tablets, each containing a table of contents. That is what Yeshua is quoting in the Brit Chadashah portion you throw at me.
Consult the teachings of the rabbis, for your own knowledge, also known as the Talmud. However, that might be a step too far for a Humanistic (oh sorry, again... 'progressive') Protestant.
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Dylan Tuatha Le Danaan
Just as the original sin of Sodom was wealth and haughtiness, the original Greek word, Arsenokoitai (ἀρσενοκοῖται) does not mean homosexual. That mistranslation was made in 1946, and has lingered ever since. The word itself denotes adult male acting with boy.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Sodom and Gamora's sin was sexual sins, violation of Moses' law AND what you wrote. Stop being selective in the already defined areas of the bible. Stop trying to change history to make yourself feel better.
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Melissa Thomasson
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."
— Leviticus 18:22 My understanding is that at that time this was said or written it was a time of war. God was telling the priest when they went to war not to take in prisoners of wars and mistreat them or sodomize them . It's not speaking of 2 men who love each other . but, rather a time of war where they would take in prisoners of war and do horrible things to them - and God was telling them not to do it.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Comment has been removed.
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Pastor George Day
Melissa Thomasson
What is the source of your claim?
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Amy Varela
As far as using the bible as the one and only truth, consider that the ignorant, Iron Age goat herders who wrote the bible had no idea at all about the Earth in relation to the cosmos, nor had they any clue about some of the animals. I know for sure that Genesis 1:16 is, at least, partial nonsense. The claim there is that the moon is a light, and anyone alive today with a few brain cells to rub together knows that the moon is not, in fact, a light. It reflects the light of the sun. Were the moon a light, it would always, and only, be visible as a full moon at night.
Also, in Gen 1:20, every winged thing is called a bird. Bats have wings and they are not birds. Penguins are birds with wings and they don't fly.
You'd think that the creator of the universe would know what the moon is and what bats are. Or is he ignorant, too?
And does anyone really believe that a man lived inside a fish, for any length of time? Really?
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Amy, do you feel better telling off a priest that never made the comments you are attacking me for?
And your comment of "goat herders " we call "an Agrion society" its definition is as follows: An agrarian society (also called an agricultural society) is a type of community whose economy is primarily based on farming and cultivating land. In such societies, producing crops and raising domesticated animals is the main source of wealth, food, and employment .
no charge for your re-education. :)
Dr. D
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Amy Varela
Thanks, but your reply contributed nothing to my education. I have no problem with people who believe the, in my personal opinion, nonsense in the bible, as long as they keep it in their places of worship and in their own heads. When your beliefs interfere with the lives and liberties of others, that's a problem. And it is a problem in the United States. A big one. Men using bible verses to take away women's control over their own bodies, and giving themselves that control. I believe that it is the fault of the ignorant men who invented a religion which has one male deity who gives authority to a few men, leaving women as nothing more than property. It's disgusting that anyone want to follow that, whether or not it's true... and there is no evidence for the truth of it. As far as I am concerned, all deities are characters in the stories people made up before science came along and explained how the universe works. And remember, he who makes the claim has the burden of proof. I do not know if any gods exist or not, but it seems to me that if there was one who wanted people to follow his nonsense, he should be capable of letting EVERYONE know the truth. Thus far, he has failed spectacularly.
I think, if one reads the bible carefully, the Abrahamic god is a genocidal, infanticidal, misogynistic, racist monster. If the bible is true, then that is what he is.
Have a lovely day!
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
You were on right track then jumped the track at the end. Yeshua whom English call "Jesus" is a Jew by tribe and as Hebrews are called today. Therefore in order for Him to "obey all the Law(of Moses)" as modern "Christians" say they believe, then Yeshua would follow the Law you mentioned. He'd also follow the Law that He be required to marry in and "Be Faithful and multiply" And you can't multiply as same sex. However, the same Yeshua told the men that accused a woman of adultery "Let him without sin cast the first stone" the same Law said "Both shall be stoned until dead and their blood shall be upon their heads" the man in the adultery was suspicious missing. The man complaining about the things around him and first year pre-psychology student can see he fears it because he sees his own sins reflect back at himself. I just wondering how long before Americans especially from North-East start getting offended again at being called "Yankee" which originally was an English/European insult calling the Colonist men "A stubborn Female Horse" after an European woman named "Yan Keys" (Jan Keys) King George whom was German ruler at time of American Revolution not English/Welch/Scottish or Irish. Now, Woman Lib would be proud as She was a Forerunner of "Women's lib" reason for the insults called her "A stubborn Female Horse" she didn't take men's crap. Just example of social hypocrisy of public iconography. Everyone getting their shorts in a bunch over nothing these days.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Dennis Chevalier, MDiv, PhD, DDvin, ULC honorary DD
Regardless of any honorary degrees one may display—though they are accessible to us all—there remains a lack of pastoral sensitivity in the language you engage with. 'Being gay' (referred to as a eunuchs in the Bible) and 'acting upon' homosexual desires, considered sins against nature, are not exactly the same thing.
As the Lord declares: “To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, choose what pleases Me, and hold firmly to My covenant, I will grant within My house and walls a memorial and a name better and more enduring than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting that will not be cut off” (Isaiah 56:4-5). Likewise, “There are eunuchs who were born that way, eunuchs who have been made so by others, and those who choose to live as eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it” (Matthew 19:12).
A 'eunuch' refers to an individual who is unable to engage in marital intimacy, either due to a congenital condition (physical, mental, or emotional) or as a result of external intervention, such as castration or gender reassignment.
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Lady Mutt Cat
And he doesn’t list any doctoral degrees, honorary or otherwise, on his LinkedIn page.
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ServantOfJudgement
Paula, please remember that the bible states that any code of conduct issued by a judge, prophet, apostle or Jesus himself is the same as Jesus saying it.
You don't need to believe or follow the Bible. That said, those who believe and study it know what I just said is true.
Jesus said no to homosexuality several times. He's pretty clear about the subject.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Name one time or verse where Jesus said "NO" to homosexuality. He had plenty to say about other types of "sinful" behavior, but not anything specifically about same-sex relations.
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ServantOfJudgement
Patricia, Romans 1:26-1:27 lays it down might clear. God thinks it vile.
Two very important things.
The code of conduct Paul issues is from Jesus directly as all code of conduct in the bible is.
Only Christians need to be concerned with God's code of conduct. It clearly says God gives non believers over to their lust. They need not be bothered by God's opinion.
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Patricia Ann Gross
If you're going to paraphrase Paul, you have to take into account who, when and why he was writing the letter, and in addition, you have to understand two additional things about the letter to the Romans:
It was a letter to a church he had yet to visit (commentary in New Interpreter's Study Bible, NRSV) -and-
In Romans 8:38-39, Paul emphatically states that NOTHING will separate us from the love of Jesus Christ.
You cannot paraphrase the epistles without a full study of the entire letter in context. The Gospels contain a better depiction of what Jesus said. Paul's letters are like reading someone else's mail. You don't know what prompted the letter or what happened afterwards. Every word Paul said was not meant for every person or every church. It was for a specific church in a specific time.
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Keith David Harry
Miss Paula, I was right with you and up to … get over yourself. As I rarely do, I agree with you. And then you dropped a bomb with the next two thoughts. Oh my, you are going to get skewered.
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Rev. BH
Skewered? Doesn't look like it, Keith. She's got 6 approval votes so far.
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Pastor George Day
Reverend Paula Copp
Jesus didn’t need to explicitly condemn homosexuality. It was already condemned in Scripture, of which He was the incarnation. Instead, He reaffirmed the biblical understanding that sexual relations are properly fulfilled within natural marriage—that is, the union of a biological man and woman, regardless of whether they are heterosexual or homosexual.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pastor Day,
Do you affirm all marriage traditions that were common among the prophets, kings, and judges in the Bible? Do you also affirm:
Marriage of men to more than one woman, but not the other way around?
Selling of daugters to the fathers of her prospective husband (i.e., slavery of women)?
Men allowed multiple concubines, but if a woman "commits adultery" she is to be stoned to death?
Where does it say one woman and one man is the only acceptable marriage?
Where in the Bible is "adultery" defined anyway? All of the above were marriage traditions of the times and not Biblical. I challenge you to prove me wrong. Please put that associate's degree to work to find it. I have a clue. You won't, because it doesn't exist.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
Here’s a breakdown of your points:
Marriage of men to multiple women, but not vice versa.
The Tanakh isn’t a collection of theological statements like the Koran. It’s a “Shamar” (testimony), showing God’s increasing involvement with fallen humanity, trying to correct wrongs. Polygamy, as a result of the fall, led to women being attracted to men yet dominated by them. This doesn’t make it right, just factual.
Genesis 3:16 says, “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe; with painful labor will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” Polygamy, though wrong, came from this dynamic. The gradual fix was to require one man to love all his wives equally, but even that, as seen with Leah, was impossible. By Yeshua’s time, Israel had eliminated polygamy, though equality and monogamy remain a challenge.Selling daughters to the fathers of their prospective husbands.
This is another domino effect of the same issue. It wasn’t right, just factual—an outcome of the fall, not God’s will.Men allowed multiple concubines, but women committing adultery faced stoning.
Your focus on this is understandable given your progressive stance. Your intent to correct it is good, but only Yeshua will fully restore order at His second coming. Meanwhile, grace helps us follow the mitzvah.
Where does it say one man and one woman is the only acceptable marriage?
The Brit Chadashah, which you quoted, states it clearly: Yeshua said, “At the beginning it was not so.”He told them, “It was because of your hardness of heart that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives. But from the beginning it was not this way. - Matthew 19:8
By the way, what made you think I read from the KJV? That’s yet another assumption on your part.
Some claim that King James was homosexual. The Queen James Version (QJV), featuring a rainbow on its cover, is popular among progressive Protestant communities.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pastor Day,
Why all the hostility? I'm not sure what Biblie you were looking at, but the scripture I gave you was the Two Greatest Commandments on which all the Law and Prophets depend (Matthew 22:36-40, and, BTW, they are love of God and love of Neighbor as yourself), and since I have no idea of what you call the Brit Chadashah, but it was not the scripture I quoted. I think you quoted 19:8. I also stated that the marriage practices were traditional, not scriptural, so thank you for agreeing with that point.
Please tell me what I have done to offend you so much. I don't like anyone telling me what I believe any more than you do, so if that was it, I do apologize. I made an assumption and missed the mark with it. Can we please move on with respect? I will concede you are the "resident" authority on Messianic Judiasm if you will quit calling me names and mocking my beliefs.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
Brit Chadashah means New Covenant.
I apologize if my words seemed disrespectful. My perspective is shaped by a limited regard for progressive Christianity or Judaism, as they often appear to emphasize self-reliance over the sufficiency of God’s Torah or the cross. You may contact me privately here.
https://www.theology-of-the-body-church.co.uk/contact-us
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
“Sincerely held religious beliefs” are just a BS excuse used by the christian nationalists to discriminate against anyone who doesn’t buy into their brand of garbage.
A year or two ago some state used this as an excuse to outlaw abortion. And they did NOT allow the following:
In Jewish law, an abortion is not only permitted, but it is obligatory (required) when a continuation of the pregnancy poses a threat to the life or health (physical or psychological) of the mother.
Imagine that!
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Pastor George Day
Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
As a Jewish rabbi, this seems entirely unfamiliar to me and strikes me as complete nonsense. What is your source?
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Colleen McAllister
The Court made the correct decision. As long as people are not trying to convert others to their way of belief then it should be acceptable to display your personal beliefs. Each to his own life.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
But open advertizements like that work place canners, etc. IS ATTEMPING to elisit others to be that way...
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Christopher Rocco Scafidi
Enlist? I mean, if seeing a pride flag is enough to 'turn you gay', then I've got some news for you: You were probably already gay.
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James Riggle-Johnson
There is no way to make a gay person. You’re either born that way, or you are not.
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Lady Mutt Cat
This is not really true, James. I remember the 60s very well. There was a group of feminist women who said that men were the enemy and “we don’t sleep with the enemy.” They CHOSE to be gay. I brought this fact up in one of my law school classes, and it wasn’t particularly appreciated there, either. Not refuted but also not appreciated.
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James Riggle-Johnson
First, they may have been just saying that. If they actually were having relations with other women, I would question just how straight they really were.
Second, the feminist movement was packed full of lesbians. I’m not saying they were all lesbians, but back then it was easier to say “All men are the enemy” than to say outright that you were a lesbian. Actually, a lot of men back then would call them lesbians to demean them.
Full-on straight people have no desire to have relations with same sex partners. And full-on gay people don’t have any desire to have relations with the opposite sex.
On the Kinsey scale, I would be a 5 because in my early teens, I had to know for sure.
0 – Exclusively heterosexual
1 – Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2 – Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 – Equally heterosexual and homosexual (bisexual)
4 – Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 – Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6 – Exclusively homosexual
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ServantOfJudgement
Mr Johnson, there's quite a few things that'll tip a dude over to the gay side. Crystal Meth addiction is a quick hitter I hear. Lust and anything that boosts lust will do it too. Exposure and over exposure fuzzies the lines and away we go.
When someone says there's no way to do something, there's as many ways as there are people in the room+1.
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James Riggle-Johnson
How many times have you crossed that line, SOJ? I am not talking about drug addicts who would do anything for a score. There are those who are curious... who might want to try it. Some of them might be Bi-Sexual. But I bring the idea back to you. Have you ever been tempted? The answer to that question is important. Have you been tempted away from the straight and narrow? I doubt it but I could be wrong.
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ServantOfJudgement
James, I've had a few gay dudes hit on me. I ran it through the ole simulator in my head for a few milliseconds. Not good, not for me anyway. Super politely I declined, I'm actually a nice guy about things. Especially when feelings can get really hurt.
I guess the answer would be not tempted but considered with imagination. I'm sure if all straight guys were asked the same, most would lie and say they didn't even imagine the scenario. Hard to believe when saying something usually causes us to automatically generate an image in our mind.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pride month has nothing to do with converting anyone to a particular lifestyle. It is acknowledging their existence and rights to be a living breathing human being with the same rights as straight people. If you are one who thinks this is a "choice" and can be "decided on a whim," when was it you decided you were straight? What are you afraid of? Did you know that putting the LGBGTQIA++ community back into the closet would create huge issues for a large community of people who are absolutely no threat to the rest of the human race.
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DeElla J Kirkpatrick
I somewhat agree with your statement. That being said, I do not believe the workplace is the place for expressing your personal views in regard to religion, politics, cultural or other controversial subjects. The workplace is where you to go WORK. People should express their beliefs and ideas regarding non-work related areas on their own time and away from the workplace. Employers should stay neutral in all non-work related areas out of respect to their clients and employees. In this case, a government or government adjacent agency should not represent and particular views on cultural, political or religious beliefs keeping the workplace completely neutral. I have personally seen companies put out of business by demonstrating that they lean one way or another on an issue.
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Patricia Ann Gross
DeElla,
You have a point, but to do all of that, you are also suggesting that workplaces not acknowledge other causes like Black or Women's History Month, and a great number of issues dedicated to charitable causes, United Way, and Cancer awareness. Some would argue these are equally "controversial." I wouldn't want to work for a company that did not actively show its connection with the community it is allowed to operate in, and to celebrate all of its employees, especially those that are part of diverse communities.
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Stephen P Singleton
I had to scroll back to make sure, but YES this was a court in the UK. The Decision in this case is totally in line with Common Sense and what I would expect of any court anywhere. Having grown up in the "US of A", I used to be proud of the common sense protections of US courts and the US Legal System until January 2025. NOW (I'd be willing to bet) there are US jurisdictions where he would've won! He needs to move to Florida. Or maybe Texas. And adopt MAGA iconography. Although there are British right wingers too, thank The Lord there is some (less and less) Common Sense in the Brit mainstream legal system.
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Najah P Tamargo
Najah Tamargo-USA
Members of the LGBTQ÷ can be religious as well. Why can't people just let it go. Jesus loved EVERBODY! Why can't we??
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Patricia Ann Gross
Najah,
You are absolutly correct. Many of the LGBTQIA++ community are devout Christians. There are open and affirming denominatios and denominations dedicated to their community and allies, just like there are denominations geared toward other marginalized and often persecuted groups (like Black, Latino, and Jewish who have converted but want to maintain their Jewish heritage). Loving someone is the important part of any relationship, and Jesus NEVER said you are to love each other except someone who aligns with your sex (assigned at birth). He also said nothing about homosexuality.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
Once again, your assertions are fundamentally inconsistent with historical and theological truth.
We Jews who accept Yeshua as Messiah—namely, Messianic Jews and Hebrew Catholics—do not “choose” to preserve our Jewish heritage; such a notion is both misguided, ignorant of factual truth and offensive. We ARE Jews, and our Messiah IS Jewish. By contrast, you are Gentiles.
Christianity, in its very essence, is Jewish; it was Constantine who transformed it into a Gentile heritage, though that is another matter entirely.
Gentiles are grafted into Israel.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Pastor Day,
I truly appreciate your stance on Jesus, the Messiah, whether it is from the Christian or the Jewish perspective is not an issue. How you describe it is not the way it was initially presented to me, so I apologize. I would hesitate to call it a "Hebrew Catholic," unless you want to face some of the same flack that A-J Levine has (see previous posts, so I don't have to repeat it).
By the way, when I traced my family tree back, my grandmother's maiden name was Ishmael, and her maternal grandfather's name was Israel Levi Zimmerman. I guess that should tell you how much of a "Gentile" I am. I'm not sure whether the conversion to Christianity came before leaving the "old countries" or after they immigrated to the USA in the 18th and 19th centuries.
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross,
This would mean that you may have a birthright or ancestral connection to Israel, which could be worth investigating further.
Hebrew Catholics are referred to as such because they are distinct from Messianic Jews. They form a separate community within the Catholic Church, with their own traditions, liturgy, organisations, and community structures. They are under the authority of the Pope, with the Vicar of St James serving as their ecclesiastical representative.
Hebrew Catholics generally identify themselves as Jews who are also Catholic. I previously had a friend who was a Hebrew Catholic.
Messianic Jews, on the other hand, are a diverse group consisting of different denominations and communities. In my case, my community is approximately half Jewish and half Gentile, and we broadly embrace Protestant theology.
In this context, there are various Jewish and Jewish-affiliated traditions, including Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, Samaritan, Messianic, and Hebrew Catholic communities.
I hope this provides some further clarification and helps explain the distinction between Hebrew Catholics (of Catholic theology) and Messianic Jews (of Protestant theology).
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Lady Mutt Cat
There is nothing more disgusting than the idea because one is Jewish, whatever that means in 2026, one has the right to kick Palestinians off of land that they’ve owned for decades and generations. Zionism is a cancer. According to my own family tree, Benjamin Netanyahu and I are cousins. I can’t imagine a more disgusting person to be related to.
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Pastor George Day
Lady Mutt Cat
That’s an offensive assumption. Why would you think I support Netanyahu just because I’m Jewish?
Real Zionism is rooted in biblical tradition, not about expelling Palestinians.
I’m not into politics, so if you’re looking to pick a fight with your bigotry and woke antisemitism, pick on someone else, siss!
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Lady Mutt Cat
I’m Jewish. Did you miss that business about me and Bibi being cousins? In your world view, I’m a self-hating Jew, not an anti-Semite. Get it now? I stand proudly with Jews like Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, and Medea Benjamin and Hannah Einbinder. And I repeat, Zionism is a cancer.
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ServantOfJudgement
Because we've been corrupted Najah. No person can behave as Jesus. If they did, they'd be crucified by us.
After all, look how many say what you say then hate President Trump and the Maga people.
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Nicholas J Page
It's the first time I have heard about this I live in England no way should an employee tell his/her employer to remove the Rainbow logo at work im Heterosexual and I support The lgbtq community. We have a gay couple who live upstairs and we treat them as we would expect to be treated. Gays etc should be treated as people and no expected to conform to other people's ideas etc.I have worked with gay people and they do not cause problems.
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Interesting article. I agree it is not the workplace for him. Do not offer the job. I agree there is no discrimination & teach tolerance & acceptance of all things. religion, transgender, straight & lgbt. He could work on his issue with a therapist or do yoga for his anxiety. Sometimes exposure to your fears or what ever is what teaches you to be tolerant. Blest Be amen. We are living in exciting times & freedoms.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Why must HE work with a therapist when its them insisting men can have babies and women can be US Navy SEALs?
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James Riggle-Johnson
Seriously? Why can’t a woman be a Navy SEAL? I thought this was settled long ago. If they meet the requirements to become one, then why not let them?
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Because not even most men can do it. Women are not built for it. Stop making an issue where there isn't one!
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James Riggle-Johnson
We have women Navy Seals. It's not an issue. It is a fact. They have passed the physical and mental requirements that their male counterparts do.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
There are no Navy female SEALs. I did an FOIA request and posted it herein. You can do the same. Anyone can. I proved it. Lets see YOUR so-called proof.
https://www.secnav.navy.mil/foia/Pages/default.aspx to see what I submitted here, scroll down and READ!!!!!
This is what I've been saying all along. TOO MANY HERE HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT WHAT THEY CLAIM!!!!
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James Riggle-Johnson
Forgive me Dr. D, I misspoke. Women have been able to apply to the Navy SEAL training program since 2015. I am surprised none have passed the training yet. I say yet because eventually one will make it. It’s what I chose to believe.
As for your superiority complex—well, I don’t have an answer for that. People who claim to know something about everything are frequently wrong. I assume, from your litany of degrees, that you are intelligent. But your condescending attitude towards the rest of us is uncalled for. It’s considered rude.
In reality, you cannot know if a woman can or cannot ever become a SEAL. Unless you are prescient, and in that case, I apologize again.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Well, here comes (maybe) a surprise....I agree with you. I come across as an ass and I don't try to but in a printed medium, with all the frustrations with that, the deletions of what I research and post and having to repeat what I say 3-99 times it makes me nuts and a smart-ass. Please forgive me.
Contrary to popular belief here and elsewhere I am a very funny and kind man (so I am told) but most of all reasonable.
you are right and my behavior could use a tune-up!
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James Riggle-Johnson
I appreciate that, Dr. D. I have a sarcastic sense of humor myself, and it doesn't always come across as polite in written format. It’s also very difficult to detect a person’s tone and intent in written format. I frequently come across as an a$$ when I write something. When we read something, it is interpreted by our own minds and by our preconceived ideas about what a person means when they write.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
no worries here. us smart-XXs need to stick together!
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
oh my what a surprise...my FOIA letter i posted here was "removed".
So I guess facts are completely irrelevant here! You will just deny and alter what we put here.
This is crap!
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Patricia Ann Gross
Or, maybe the moderators considered it plagerism. I sometimes get things I cut and paste from websites deleted, not so much when I type them. These "text boxes" have some sort of detectors of that sort of thing, because I occasionally get a "not permitted" page instead of a post removed message."
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Patrica, It can't be considered plagiarism if I'm the author.
Dr. D
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Patricia Ann Gross
Dr. D
But does the "bot" know that? I get "flagged" for using the same quotes from former papers that I authored all the time when I submit my papers, even thought they are properly cited with the correct authors. I also get flagged on my own words, and reuse of citations. I don't lose points, because the professor is able to see that it was my former paper, but I doubt any "bot" in a text box has that kind of intellegence, (even thought that is what the "i" means in "AI")
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Pastor George Day
Patricia Ann Gross
That’s because you’re so ‘progressive’… LOL! Time to return to the fold, sister! 😄
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Lady Mutt Cat
You are correct. There are no women SEALs. But women are eligible to apply, and that is how it should be.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
That I agree with and I hope you also understand that medicine, physical results and documentation will bear out that there are just some jobs that women cannot do. This is one them. In the SEAL community they also share this because a women would be useful in certain situations and that is why they are used as swift boat operators, and F's, etc. that are deployed along with SEALs but they are NOT SEALs. Just because they work with them doesn't make them the same. Thank you for seeing the facts! God Bless.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
I'm not sure what Female United States Navy Seals got to do with Gay pride offending some insecure guy in Ireland. But hears personal experience not skynet drivel. In 1990 I tried for the Navy Seals about 500 application and year apply. I was #357 of 500 that got washed out, just on the entrance test not even the actual training. There were still 75 women still in the game after I failed. On other fronts even if the Navy Seals doesn't have a woman yet. My Sister was an Army Ranger, fought in Iraq 2000s second round, I fought in round one, they were nice enough to give me go away presents in the leg and arm. My cousin a female in the Army 1990 I. A German pub, I watched this little mouse woman kick the butt of this huge Arnold Swartzagger looking German all over the pub in a fight. Gay or straight don't think your XX chromosomes give you more power over females. My mother and Grandmother taught us boys that "women are to be equal partners in a marriage not the man's house slave." Some of the greatest unsung heroes of ww2 were women; hell, the Late Queen of England was a member of MI6, a spy doing the same dangerous things everyone pays good money to see fictional James Bond do.
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Amy Varela
"Gay or straight don't think your XX chromosomes give you more power over females." Men have the XY chromosomes; women are XX. Just FYI.
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Lisbeth Kieran Bushey
Women can be in the Special Forces. Several are already. They have to pass the exact same standards as the men do and the ones that have managed to pass the grueling training have earned their place in the Special Forces. The SEALs haven’t had any women pass the course YET - but the SEALs are one of the hardest groups to join. Most men who try don’t make the cut. There’s a ton of women who have become Green Berets, Rangers, and Air Force Special Forces groups (PJs, etc.) and they had to EARN it.
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Amy Varela
Because HE is claiming that HE has an "autistic shutdown" if HE sees rainbow shoe laces and HE apparently has a fear of pronouns. That's a serious mental problem. Most of the people I know who are on the spectrum are in therapy. He's an evangelical Christian AND a devout Catholic. That in itself is close to an oxymoron. Evangelical Christians don't typically worship Mary and the many saints of the Catholic church. Regardless, Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. If you're following/worshipping Jesus, it's important to follow his example. Or maybe he should try not to be a so selfish, y'know, like Jesus wasn't selfish.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
Mary is not worshiped, its a veneration. Please actually read the bible.
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Lady Mutt Cat
Depends on the denomination. The Liberal Catholic Church sees Mary as a goddess.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
There you go making up terms to make "YOUR" point. There is no Liberal Catholic church!
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Lady Mutt Cat
Thank you for proving that a string of letters behind your name, in your case probably paid for, are meaningless to real knowledge. Feel free to google Liberal Catholic Church. An intelligent person would have at least googled it before spouting off and embarrassing himself.
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
what the hell are you afraid of that you must delete my comments?
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
I did research it when I did my Master of Theology program along with many others.
It is not a Rome authorized or acknowledged sect and therefore doesn't exist as you insist that it does.
And your buddy working with you that deleted the previous answer that also says the same thing will also get deleted I bet.
You though, as so filled with hate that it must be very crowed inside you.
You need professional help! I will continue to pray for you!
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Lady Mutt Cat
If you researched it, why did you say that I made the term up? I am sorry for your desperation to redeem yourself. I will pray for you.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
Just remember there are some jobs men are not physically designed to do also. Nancy Reagan said so.ething my mother and grandmother loved drilling us on; "Women are tougher than men and that'sa natural fact. Lets see a man sqeeze out somethingthe size of a watermelon from a hole the size of a lemon." & "God created women to help their man not be his slave. And men are to help there woman not be her slave master. My lesbian sister says she can't stand both sides because they both acting like tyrants; in 1990 while I was in Iraq getting shot for trespassing and interfering in other people's lives without being asked. Michel Rocard was the Prime Minister of France was on the news saying, "The United States of America is the biggest bully on the planet. If you don't conform to their way of life they will invade your country and force you to at gun point." I was insulted at the time, however my sister the lesbian and Army Ra ger was sent there in round two by George, jr. And she agrees and pointed out Michel Rocard is right and many of these comments prove him right. We. Ant let American citizens be free to live how they wish in "the land of the free". I've grown to understand the Dixie Chick's statement that got them ostracized. I want the be proud to be an American and a veteran but my fellow Americans make me embarrassed and our government proves Vladimir Putin correct in statement he told in 1990 as General of the GRU. "Wouldn't you rather work for a governmentthat holds the k ife to your throat andtells you what to do? Or your silly government that pretends to be your friend and stabs you in the back?" I told him my government will never do that to me, then got stabbed in the back.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Dennis Chevalier, MDiv, PhD, DDvin, ULC honorary DD
I’m curious how this post managed to get through, as it seems to attack the individual rather than the ideas. I believe our moderators should hold a revision meeting to address this.
Regarding your own ‘Romanic’ standard, does ULC, which you appear to be so vocally engaged in, actually exist?
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Lady Mutt Cat
https://www.globallcci.org
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Lady Mutt Cat
🤣 www dot globallcci dot org
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Lady Mutt Cat
Here’s his statement that I add up the Liberal Catholic Church. Much different than his later comments that it doesn’t exist because Rome doesn’t recognize it.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Dennis Chevalier, MDiv, PhD, DDvin, ULC honorary DD
Independent Catholics do exist and, while not part of the mainstream, they align with the tradition of the Old Catholics, who are themselves associated with the Anglican Communion.
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Pastor George Day
Lady Mutt Cat
Liberal Catholic is not mainstream.
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Henry Buehler
pray the Rosary
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Dr Dennis Chevalier PhD, DDvin
I do are you saying that a Rosary exists that "your proof" she is worshipped?
If so, I would demand a refund on your education.
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Pastor George Day
Amy Varela, you clearly need to do your homework on Catholic teaching.
First, Catholics do not worship Mary or the saints. The Catholic doctrine is the Communion of Saints: the spiritual union of the faithful on earth with those who have gone before us in Christ. Catholics honour the saints and ask for their prayers; worship belongs to God alone. Mary is likewise venerated, not worshipped.
Second, Jesus affirmed marriage between a man and a woman. So what exactly are you claiming He said about homosexuality? If you are going to invoke Christian teaching, then at least represent what Christianity—and specifically Catholicism—actually teaches accurately.
Strong opinions do not substitute for knowing the subject. Do your homework.
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Whether I agree or disagree with someone's beliefs doesn't give me the right to stop them from expressing their beliefs. I believe the bible as it is written and that they will have to answer to God not man in the end.