How long does unwanted touching have to last to constitute sexual assault? According to one Judge, the magic number is 10 seconds. Anything less is – apparently – no big deal.
How did we get here?
The ruling came in the case of a 17-year-old female high school student, who last year reported being touched inappropriately by a 66-year-old custodian.
The school employee allegedly touched the student's rear end and grabbed her as she climbed a staircase.
Love, you know I was joking,” is reportedly what the custodian told the student. He admitted to this unwanted touching, but insisted it was simply in jest.
Italian prosecutors sought a prison sentence of three-and-a-half years and a sexual assault charge, but instead, a judge just decided to let the man go.
His reasoning? The groping lasted less than 10 seconds, so short that it "does not constitute a crime," the judge argued.
Now, outraged young people are taking to social media to express their outrage, and are posting uncomfortable videos of them groping themselves for ten seconds, to show just how long ten seconds really is.
Ten-Second Rule
The case went to trial, and not many are laughing at the custodian's joke after his shocking acquittal.
The judge argued that the caretaker made an "awkward maneuver without lust," and since it was only a brief moment, he had done nothing wrong.
The ruling outraged many around the world, with thousands taking to social media to express their dissatisfaction with the seemingly completely arbitrary 10 second time limit on harassment.
Outrage Grows
Following the ruling, the hashtag #10secondi began trending on Instagram and TikTok. Thousands of social media users, primarily women, have posted videos of themselves touching their intimate parts for 10 seconds.
The videos are intentionally uncomfortable, the poster staring silently at the camera as they touch their privates, a 10-second timer slowly ticking down. Their creator's hope to send a message that any amount of harassment is unacceptable and that they are, frankly, fed up with how blatantly women are mistreated.
"Who decides that 10 seconds is not a long time? Who times the seconds, while you're being harassed?" pondered Italian influencer Francesco Cicconetti on TikTok. "Men don't have the right to touch women's bodies, not even for a second - let alone 5 or 10."
Many have come forward to share their own stories of harassment, pointing out that less than a second of inappropriate and unwanted touching is enough to make one feel violated and cause severe mental distress.
War on Women?
The student who was initially harassed by the man says that both the ruling and the custodian's excuse is preposterous.
"The judges ruled that he was joking? Well, it was no joke to me," she stated. "He groped my bottom. Then, he pulled me up - hurting my private parts. For me, this is not a joke. This is not how an old man should 'joke' with a teenager."
The student says she fears the ruling will only prevent other women who’ve been harassed from coming forward.
Critics say it's just another sign of a disturbing trend of women facing discrimination, or seeing their bodily autonomy reduced or denied – efforts that some worry are ramping up.
From women being told they cannot serve as church leaders, to the reversal of Roe v. Wade that has resulted in sweeping limits on abortion access, critics argue that women are facing an unfair uphill battle.
This latest court ruling only adds fuel to their theory.
With global outrage growing, opponents of the decision are hopeful that the case can help shine a spotlight on the poor ways women are treated worldwide.
What do you make of the ruling? Does sexual harassment and assault require a stopwatch to identify? And if so, who’s watching the clock?
185 comments
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I hope Donald Trump doesn't hear about this. He might call it part of making America great again.
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ServantOfJudgement
Carl, I think you've got your presidents mixed. Biden is the hair sniffing, long hugging kid groping perv. Trump is the sinless meglomaniac.
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Tom Herman
Sinless? Where have you been? Trump's 2020 campaign video's of him being accused and admitting it (emphasis added) of grabbing women between the legs is famous.
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ServantOfJudgement
Tom, Sarcasm. He claimed to be sinless when he claimed to be a Christian. He cheated on his wife, a shameful thing for anyone, especially a president. How can a citizen trust a president when the mother of the presidents children cant trust him? That's two dirtbags we've elected since I've been watching.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Like almost every president has cheated.
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Colleen McAllister
ServantOfJustice you have no idea of what you speak. Trump is the one who thinks it's fine to grab a woman by her pussy. I'll take Biden anyday over that admitted molester.
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ServantOfJudgement
Colleen,
I guess I've got high standards. I don't want a president that's unfaithful to his wife and I don't want a president that gropes every female he comes into contact with regardless of age. YouTube the biden montages if you doubt me. You won't be able to stomach it if you're opposed to guys creeping on women. It's sickening we have a president like that. We're both right about Trump, I'm right about Biden.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
And who wants you to believe that?
Oh yeah - the right-wing propaganda you never watch.
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ServantOfJudgement
Oh, you can YouTube several montages of Biden creeping on women and girls. Super duper creepy and cringy. It's OK to use the same metrics to judge Trump and Biden. If you do you'll find their both sickies. Both are bad people. Do fox News Drones think Trump is a bad person?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
SOJ, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and don't get the impression that because I quit being a Republican that I must now be a Democrat. I no longer claim membership in any political party, and am sick and tired of having to vote for the candidate who doesn't seem as bad as the other ones. The only good man I voted for, the first time I was old enough, was Ronald Reagan. They just don't make them that good anymore, and it's been downhill ever since. That's why I've decided not to vote anymore. Plus the fact that there's too many airborne pathogens to feel safe going to the polls anymore. I have to stay alive as long as I can, so I can keep ministering on this blog . Y'all wouldn't be able to survive without me.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, you can youtube an enormous amount of any number of Democrat politicians and a collection of any questionable camera moments they may have. They will even supply the context and meaning of each shot.
Right-wing propaganda is well funded and never ending.
Yes, Biden has some boundary issues. I find it particularly hilarious that the GOP has decided to pursue Biden on this angle given Trump's history. You've got one complaint against Biden? There have been six against Trump, though it's true he was only convicted on one, and let's not even talk about his infidelities and his remarks about his daughter.
But yeah, let's go after Biden. There's some real juicy gossip there!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I was a staunch Republican until Trump got elected.
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Russel A. Kester
That's interesting to know. I what they would once have called a yellow-dog Democrate until the far-left, activist crazies took the party over. Isn't life something.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You mean the ones that support gay marriage?
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Russel A. Kester
😊 No, not the ones that support gay marriage. They activists who part of the third-wave feminist movement and other critical (insert noun) theory advocates because all these groups base their thinking in black/white oppressor/oppressed person thinking. Life is a lot of gray that requires actual critical thinking not critical theories.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Except where the TQIAA++ - or whatever YOU determine - is concerned.
Got it.
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Russel A. Kester
Again, Kenneth, no. I disagree with the TQIAA+ community and advocate it be seen as distinct from the LGB community because the first is about gender identity and gender dysphoria and the latter is about sex and sexual orientation.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Better get used to it. He will be the next president. There is already discussion going on whete the ticket may be a Trump/Kennedy duo. Diaper Joe won't get re-elected not with the way he's running this country into the ground.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Keep sucking up that right-wing propaganda. You'll see what it gets you in 2024
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Funny. Thecreal fascism is what is coming from the democrats. If you say otherwise it's gaslighting. I know what I'm talking about. Apparently you don't.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/capitol-violence
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Gee, haven't you noticed the unemployment rate? Lowest in decades. And the economy has been robust enough to thrive despite the Fed and their interest rate machinations. Inflation is down. But oh, yeah--let's bash the president, who really doesn't have that much say over the economy anyway. After all, he is not God. Looks like the Build Back better has been a win, though. Now, if the 1% were taxed at a percentage closer to what we peons pay, that would be a big plus.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Oh, and I don't think Joe is the one with the diaper issue.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
You suffer from Trump Stress Disorder. Get over it. He'll be re-elected. Go move to Canada.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I guess if Trump does get elected president he'll be broadcasting live from his prison cell, when he's not on the prison golf course.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
He's not going to prison. If so, it won't for doing anything wrong. The Mafia families have control right low. That's very obvious.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
KASE - You are delusional.
Trump lost the popular vote in 2016, and lost outright in 2020, and that was before J6, before the classified docs, before Dominion, before Dobbs, and isn't he due to testify in his own defense soon AGAIN (worked out great for him the first time!), and there are so many other things.
I'm sure Trump looks like a sure thing in your bubble - but your bubble isn't the world. Not even close.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Yes. We all know. By 81 million votes that suddenly appeared in three hours grasped from the air. You know the majority of Americans don't buy that. But, I'm responding you anymore. Not worth the time.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Promise?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Nope. Not in your life. Let's spar. Roman swords or 10 paces then turn. 😆 🤣 😂 😹 😆 🤣 😂 😹
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Tell me when you graduate middle school and we'll talk about it.
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Rena Nelson
Trump 2024!!!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Great candidate you've got there.
https://www.dw.com/en/taliban-endorse-donald-trump-in-us-presidential-race-report/a-55232735
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-38057104
https://www.mic.com/articles/158302/kkk-paper-the-crusader-endorses-donald-trump-for-president
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/capitol-violence
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/apr/18/dominion-wins-but-the-public-loses-fox-settlement-avoids-paying-the-highest-price
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Catherine
Might there have been a different outcome if the offended were one of the Judges' family members?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Too late Catherine. That judge has already groped all of his family members for less than ten seconds each, on many occasions. And you wouldn't believe everyone else he's groped. He was tickled pink that someone came along who was guilty of the same thing, so he could pass a law to protect himself.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
If a woman had done that to a boy, it wouldn't even have got to court in the UK.'
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Russel A. Kester
Yes, Rev. Mike! People just look the other way when women grope young guys, boys really, because somehow boys are suppose to feel complimented or enjoy it. Let's all sing a round of 'hey, hey Mrs. Robinson.'
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Little boys are wanted more then little girls, especially in the child trafficking.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Should we follow you for more human trafficking tips?
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Russel A. Kester
Keith, I think your comment about which sex is trafficked more is curious. I think you could be right. I don't know why that would be the case. Could it be like the case here in Oregon where boys were trafficked to farmers who made them work the farms for the benefit of wealthy farmers? I never did hear that anything happened to those wealthy farmers. Funny that.
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Rev Mark D
I was just wondering something similar, what the judge would say if he was on the receiving end.
Which reminds me, if this case went to trial, was it a jury trial or a bench trial? It seems like guilt or innocence is determined by a jury, if there is one.
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Jimmy Moon
Try that on my wife or daughter and you will be missing a hand.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
What if it's not your wife or your daughter, but your ass that they grab? Would you enjoy it, and beg for more?
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Russel A. Kester
Carl, you've confused me. I'm not sure if you're sharing a personal fantasy or trying to make a point.
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Jimmy Moon
You must be a sodomite to ask that.
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Russel A. Kester
Well, there's no logical connection between my comment to Carl and yours to me, Jimmy. What is clear is your intention to somehow insult me for being gay. Being gay is a wonderful blessing from our Divine Creator. And I think him for blessing me. You might want to update your terminology though.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
We need to get the US Supreme Court to issue the same ruling in the US. Seems like it would be easy to do since after the ruling on the Gay Web site case where the evidence provided to the court was all fake. The entire case was just made up by a group of Christins and they duped the court into making a ruling.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
In Italy, the jury could be made up of nothing but Catholic priests!
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Russel A. Kester
That might be of greater concern for boys not girls. Just sayin' ...
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
People have a right to refuse their services to someone they consider living in sin. I wish people would accept other's religious values and leave it at that period. Enough of this progressive liberalism bull manure. That's what has created the breakdown of our society. Just like open borders will create the fall of our country giving aid to all these illegal ingrates. Equality is not guaranteed to every American citizen nor is liberty. They are two values which the Founders meant to be at odds with each other. If you don't like what exists in your area where you live then leave.
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Russel A. Kester
Keith, there's just so much wrong in your post. Where to begin? The US is NOT about accepting others religion or its values. It's about tolerating them and using your words to tell them, hopefully politely, what idiots they are for hold them. Equality IS the bedrock of our constitution, stating that all men (persons) are created equal. I think you meant to say that equity is not guaranteed. As for not liking where one lives, that seems to be you right now. Send us a post card.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Keith Allen Steele Eash. Not in America they don’t. How little you know about the history of America and the founding principal. Ever read words on the Statue of Liberty? This nation was created with open boarders, illegal aliens from Europe who brought a purchased slaves. One of the founding principles of this country is equality freedom of not having religion. We are you against the United States and refuse to abide by the Declaration of Independence which states “all men are created equal”? If you want to impose your empirical beliefs on a nations of free people why don’t you leave the country. Your believes are NOT what this country is about and defiantly is in opposition to the founding principals of this country. Why do you hate America so much?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Dude. You don't even know me and you don't want to go there. I won't brag on my degrees. My beliefs are closer to American founding then you seem to think. And we were open borders hen we acquired the Western South West. Impossible to stop Mexicans and even indians from crossing back and forth for many years. Much different now. The illegals are being paid to come here for one party hoping it will be in their favor to stay in power aka the democrats or should I say Communists. That includes the RINOS. This move of illegals can backfire as it is in France or they may support the conservative movement. The illegals coming here really for a better life are very conservative in family values. Problrm is the Mafioso political crime families which includes the Obamas, Pelosi , Biden and others are in cahoots with the cartels. They aren't doing anything to stop the border surge. It is an invading army. The present act by Texas to put up razor wire right at the banks of the River is an attempt to curb them. In any way we can't jeep.letting them in. A few dead bodies will send a message. The Statue of Liberty does not advocate open borders. It is not a founding document either. It was an attempt to fill jobs with immigrants who were vetted when entering if accepted. We were a growing industrial nation that needed workers. We don't need the illegal unarmed army entering our country now. If you want a better life stay where you are, shed some blood and change your system. Don't come to America and help the democrats turn it into a 3rd world **** hole like what you're leaving. During the Civil War the North encouraged immigration to swell the ranks of their armies to quell that allegedly Southern rebellion. The South had many things going against them which cost them their liberty and their right to solve the slavery question within their own time and keep Northern wildcats from investing in the South taking back all the profits from their own industrial investments. Anyone with brains must admit the Southerners were not rebels as treated by Northern interpretation of history past and present. Slavery was an industry that was meant to die out in time. I'm not going to go into racism, etc. I refuse to judge the South when our own country has become so immoral as of today going for our kids. It starts with abortion and ends with abortion. Amazing that our government has no intention to stop open borders, but it's very ironic we allow millions of illegals in and push abortion in and out of the U. S., and do nothing about the enslavement of children. They want their little boys and girls to bend over for them and kill them they're no longer useful and they're untraceable.
I do not hate America. I hate progressive liberalism with a passion and I will attack and destroy it through the Electoral process or by civil war which ever comes first. This nation has always been conservative. Even the Founding Fathers were all conservatives in that they shared the same values, but sometimes differing thoughts of achieving them. They were all classical liberals dedicated to the ideas of western civilization. That is what I hold to.-
Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Keith Allen Steele Eash Where did you go to school? What degrees do you have and where did you earn them? You knowledge of the history of the United States, Supreme Court and the United Constitution is abysmal. Your degrees are an an an embarrassment to the institution of higher learning that issued them to you as well as your professors? How is it did not fail? Did you cheat on all of your exams?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Never heard that fake allegation before. I think the Supreme Court investigated the crime. They're not stupid as you seem to suggest.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Keith Allen Steele Eash See there you go with your beliefs again and refusing to listen to the truth. We have the testimony and supporting documents proving the case was fabricated and nothing but lies told by Christians.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Keith Allen Steele Eash Sound like you don’t have a clue what the Supreme Court does or what they rule on. The Supreme Court doesn’t investigate crimes. They interpret the meaning of a law, to decide whether a law is relevant to a particular set of facts, or to rule on how a law should be applied. Go back to misreading your Bible.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I think you don't realize they look carefully at the investigations that were carried out when they decide rather to listen to a case or not. They don't have legal scholars who just sit on their rears. Anyone who looks into a case it's called research and investigation done on a phone just no leg work.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Keith Allen Steele Eash You still don’t know what the Supreme Court does and how they decide on what cases to hear.
Where did you go to school? What degrees do you have and where did you earn them? You knowledge of the history of the United States, Supreme Court and the United Constitution is abysmal. Your degrees are an an an embarrassment to the institution of higher learning that issued them to you as well as your professors? How is it did not fail? Did you cheat on all of your exams?
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Nicholas J Page
Putting your hands on a woman who is not your wife or partner constitutes as sexual assault.He should not have tried pulling her attire up just had a quiet word and said your underwear is showing.Better cover your self up. 3 female judges doesn't sound right to me assault is assault no matter how long it lasts.
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Russel A. Kester
Read another article on this, and it seems the janitor had pulled her dripping pants up in the rear as she herself had been doing during the day. Dumb thing to do. Sexual assault? Doesn't seem so. Since sexual assault was the complaint, and the case was dismissed by three FEMALE judges. Also, it was in public view of other students and lasted far less than 10 seconds.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If this was your daughter, would you want strange men adjusting her clothes for her?
We also have an active debate about shaking hands - but here it's okay to grab a woman's pants? What's wrong with SAYING something? Or talking to her companions? Or offering something to cover up with?
There are a LOT of alternatives to imposing unwanted contact. Anything more than ZERO seconds of UNWANTED CONTACT is BAD.
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Russel A. Kester
Kenneth, my post stated clearly that it was a dumb, and I'll add inappropriate, thing to do. But he wasn't accused of being dumb, he was accused of sexual assault. Two very different things. If there was no sexual intent, then he's not guilty of the charge.
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Rev Mark D
Is intent a necessary element to the crime then over in Italy?
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SueW
I’m visualizing a pandemic of men “accidentally” falling into a strange woman’s corresponding part, and being dismissed because it was an accident.
The whole thing is bs. No I don’t believe it rose to the level of “sexual” assault, but putting a time requirement on unwanted touching of any kind is…I don’t even have words for it.
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Russel A. Kester
Sue, your position is quite good. And I agree that the 10 second thing is rather bizarre. Thank you for your clear headed thinking.
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Russel A. Kester
It is certainly is here, and since both countries share a basis in Roman law, I'll bet it's a safe assumption. But in order to show intent, the complaintant (sp?) must prove each of the required elements of the alleged crime. For sexual assault there are several. I remember a case where some rather fanatical parents insisted there 4-year old had been sexually assaulted because another 4-year old had stuck a cylindrical object into the poor little guy's butt. I had it squashed immediately by stating the obvious, 4-year old toddlers do not have the mental capacity to commit sexual assault. Sometimes people just overreact. We're all human.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
And you know his intent how?
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Russel A. Kester
That's what the law does. And it's actually quite good at it.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Well, letting the guy go makes more sense that 3 1/2 years in prison.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
And you know after this all those pedophiles will always be playing grab - ass in the confessionals!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
If that's directed to Carholic priests that is an insult to us Catholics and I think either demands an apology or remove your comment.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If you don't like the comments here, feel free to go somewhere else. I have it on high authority that equality and liberty are not guaranteed to anybody, so get used to it.
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Catherine
"Hypocritical piety is double iniquity."
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Russel A. Kester
Keith, you seem a bit upset, but even you must be chagrined at the mountains of cases and believable reports of the abuse of very young boys in Catholic churches, schools, boys' homes, summer camps, youth groups, and on and on in virtually every country in the world as far back as we can look. As much as it pains me, Carl has made an interesting observation. Let's hope the Catholic church has stopped paddling little boys' bare bottoms, just in case.
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John W
As stated: who is watching the proverbial second hand as it ticks down the time between 1 and 10 seconds? To the victim that 10 seconds can mentally seem like 10 hours. That ruling by the Italian court is ugly news for countless people female and male that may be sexually assaulted by indecent persons.
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He Who Breathes
10 seconds gives you time to taze them. Make sure you do it for less than 10 seconds.
Lets see how they feel after that....
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Breather, you could also hit them with a death blow in less than that, but make sure there aren't any witnesses.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
No time limit on white male fragility!
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Russel A. Kester
What did any of the above have to do with the mythical theory of white, male fragility? Remember, when you point a finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Don't be so fragile RAK.
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Russel A. Kester
Kenneth, I don't think I'm the one exhibiting fragility.
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Heather Adams
More than likely heirarchial. When you place social constructs such as oppositional defiance you establish the same, rhetorical, heirarchial structure of rule and abuse. Self awareness and self care matter.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I bet you like being mooned, don't you Jimmy?
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Pamela Vonbacho Ploof
Any woman who has been attacked,fondled or otherwise misused will tell you it's no laughing matter!!! I hope that judge receives his just reward for idiot judgement. It would be different if His daughter received that treatment.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Pamela, the judge you're speaking about are three women.
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Heather Adams
The heriarchial structure in society is askew.
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Russel A. Kester
Pamela, how sexist to assume that the decision was made by a male judge. Here's a hint: it was made by three FEMALE judges. Opoops!!!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So they were red-pilled.
It happens.
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Russel A. Kester
LOL. Kenneth, it's such a joy to discuss these topics with you. I think it's more likely that these judges as learned legal scholars who understand clearly all of the legal elements that are required to support an accusation of sexual assault.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Your faith and moral predilection is noted.
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Heather Adams
It's one pill.......not red or blue, it's one pill.
Heirarchial, not men, not women, heirarchial.
Men have just been in power longer. Facts. Those are facts.
Some women can be mysogonistic, which is a social construct as well.
Human nature, it all boils down to human nature.
If we were all ferrule animals then the perpetrator, or "assaulter" would have been eaten or the "assualted" animal would have fought back.
Nature and instinct say that it's not ok for another to puck another's fur unless you have permission.
Silverback Gorillas are one of nature's hierachial dominate creatures. Have many wives and runs the show. Everyone sees the male as the dominant one. In society, this is taken advantage of by those who can't control their natural animal instincts from the pollutants of today's society.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Does anybody else see how uncomfortable the young women in these videos are? And that's undoubtedly their boyfriends or trusted friends who are assisting in the videos. I have a daughter their age, and I worry ALL THE TIME about people who don't respect them or the law taking advantage of any opportunity to disregard all law or morality for their own amusement or gratification.
Who wouldn't - except YOU. You know who you are, you POS. I'm talking to YOU.
DON'T. EVEN. THINK. ABOUT IT.
You might think you're clever - but it will catch up to you. IT WILL.
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Russel A. Kester
Kenneth, it seems a very unchristian thing to do to call anyone here a POS, as you stated it. I'm not aware of anyone who has posted that they agreed with the janitors actions. Some have sought to understand the judges' or justify the judges decision. Since you have a daughter, let's not go there as a father's love of and defence of his daughter is emotionally powerful and one can become, understandably, irrational. Yup, it seems Aristotle was just wrong about the celestial spheres. He got the whole man is a rational animal argument wrong too. So let's assume you had a son and a girl his own age accused him of sexually assaulting here because he 'accidentally' grazed her breast. Would you demand that he be locked up immediately on her say so or would you defend your son and want the entire situation closely examined by a competent and fair legal system? It seems to me that's the crux of the issue here. Innocent of the charge until proven guilty and then, if guilty, the punishment should be commensurate with the crime. Have you or anyone else considered that she was simply felt embarrassed, but not sexually assaulted, and used the charge of assault to 'teach him a lesson '? Women are not always innocent flowers. They can be vicious and ever so vengeful. So we leave it to the courts to determine facts.
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ServantOfJudgement
Yes! I even felt uncomfortable looking at the pics! Creepy! I have the same worry for my daughter and daughter in law, a counselor for sex offenders. Yikes! I've been raising my own livestock shortly after king George Bush II did his patriot act and spooked me. My eyes well up for each animal I butcher for food even after so many years of it. I will have no sympathy for the creep I catch messing with my girl. None.
On this friend, we are square.
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Heather Adams
I was told that it was OK for my male harasser to stare at me and harass me at work. Unwanted touching is unwanted, period. I have been actively attempting to build empathy into my everyday life but it's difficult when you are continually unwantedly touched and no one does anything to stop the continual acceptance of heriarchial greed continues. Taking an approach of reflection and positive teaching should make for a better society and not continue the cycle of abuse or intrusive acts such as touching someone without consent. In actuality it takes less Lan a second for abuse of a child to occur. This judge was working for an alternate that doesn't serve his community.
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Paul Johnson
If it doesn't belong to you leave it alone. therefore you want have to count seconds. Touching whichever male or female shouldn't be allowed. Of course there are those who could care less about others feelings. Then we get to court and some attorney will argue ten second rule from where did we come up with such goofy thinking in the first place. I think we probably need to focus on Revelation Chapter 13 it seems to be just moments away and are we prepared for this change to take place. It's all lining up for the final play and it's amazing he says ALL will be under the influence of the ememy. I think we need to prepare one another for these final days that lie ahead. The bible is becoming more real each and everyday.
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Sherrell K Zitting
Amen.
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Russel A. Kester
What did any of the above have to do with the mythical theory of white, male fragility? Remember, when you point a finger at someone, there are three fingers pointing back at you.
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Jake Reynolds
Bullshiit, this needs reversal, the judges involved should be removed, to many things wrong with this.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Go right ahead and tell them how to do it, Perry Mason!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I bet even female judges like an occasional pat on the rear, or a nine second grope. They might have even been trying to encourage it.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
When I was thirteen, while teaching swimming for the Special Olympics, I very quickly groped a very pretty female student under water, but not in the rear. After that, they only let me supervise severely mentally retarded boys practice their dog paddling. That sure taught me a lesson.
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Rev Mark D
Did I miss something, was this girl and the story of 10 seconds and having to pull up her pants mentally disabled or developmentally disabled (as they say)?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I don't know if there's any truth to it, but I heard that all three of those female judges were formerly catholic nuns, and modeled together for Hustler magazine.
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Heather Adams
And they use The KKKs beauty line Kourtney, Kim and Kloe. Emulation of other humans is un healthy. Greed, lust, envy etc... immediate, impulsive society.
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Steven Ferrell
NO MAN should be touching a HS girl anywhere like he touched her. That judge is an a worthless pile of crap.
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Scott Singley
Quote "This action sure looks like a sin, but remember Mathew 7 "Judge not, that ye be not judged." Pray for the women to find peace and let the Lord punish the wicked." @ Peter L Frank
:O :O
Anyway I would say groping is ASSAULT under any conditions that aren't INVITED or WELCOMED. NOW..... here's my point ;) FORCING YOUR SEXUAL IDENTITY OR GENDER is a violation of GOD'S LAW and the law of FREE WILL I will respect you as an individual and good person and we don't need to go THERE KEEP YOUR SEXUAL POLITICS AND EVERYTHING AT HOME STRAIGHT PEOPLE LISTEN UP TOO...... KEEP YOUR PERSONAL LIFE AT HOME AS WELL This isn't hard people You respect one another's personal space!
TRUMP HATERS.....Please STOP Fuhrer Biden is no better and you see how is administration is BANRUPTING all of you. NO ONE has been without fault on either side Capitalism has been breeding hate for DECADES because it only works when the people using it don't become consumed with GREED
Jesus is going to be pissed if He came back now all of us acting like money hungry sociopaths LIVE....LEARN....LOVE XOXOXOXOXXX
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Margaret Sullivan
...and punching someone in the face takes less than 10 seconds. Does that make it excusable?!!!
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Cyril R. VanKeirsbelk
It's Italy, it doesn't count. Different culture, different standards. They can sort it all out themselves. Not our business to get into theirs.
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Gina Wimsatt
This is not a matter of cultural norms, it was culturally normal in the US to discriminate based on skin color/ethnicity until 1964. This is a matter of human rights. If women/girls anywhere in the world are having their basic human rights violated, then it can happen to your daughter, sister, wife, mother here. It can happen here in the US, and does.
As a woman who has had her rights violated in this country I can vouch. And it gets dismissed and ignored by police, and the courts here as well.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Cyril, we only talk about the articles they give us. We don't get to pick and choose. We have to talk about something. They seem to think it's turning us into better ministers.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
No you really don't need to talk about anything.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Keith, I'm glad to see you read my comments. I only read the ones written by the ministers who I like.
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Michael Holland
Putting your hands on another should never be ok, even a hug should be approved before it is applied!
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Brien
Can I ask what is wrong with you all? An entire discussion based on something we all learned in preschool, KEEP YOUR HANDS 🙌 TO YOURSELF. Now I am sure you learned that as a child. 1. If someone looks or dresses offensively to you, don't look. 2. If you feel the need to lay hands 🙌 on somebody without permission, DON'T. Now this is called common sense. A lost art that the older generation learned, but has been lost to the younger folks. Sorry, but watching a stupid topic explode is just ridiculous. Guess what? In this country there are even laws that govern this. It is called assault. Charges can be filed. Some of you speak as if this is new and there are no laws. Now as far as other countries go, I don't care. The people in those countries are responsible for themselves. Feel free to go and protest.
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Jessica Newell
Absolutely not. No unwanted touching of any kind is appropriate for anyone, women or men, but especially children. I am currently fighting a battle with a bill that is in the senate now for the state of Massachusetts Bill s.919 is to increase the statute of limitations for SA or Rape from 15 years to 30. It took me mpre than half my lifetime to report an assault where I was Drugged, Raped, and Video taped & happened to see the tape. It rook me 5 years and roughly 4 months to realize what actually happened and how it affected me. Assault is assault any way you look at it. NEVER is it ok to touch ANYONE without their permission. Please if able in Massachusetts contact your local senator about bill s.919. Assault is a life or death sentence for us. We either live a lifetime of trauma or it takes our life. No one but the person/persons affected should be allowed to say what that terrible experience has done to them. Shame on anyone who thinks they are better or worse than anyone else. We are all the same, human.
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Rev Mark D
This probably wasn't a female judge, correct?
I suspect that #10secondi is about to become a very popular thread.
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Russel A. Kester
Mark, according to the news article I read it was three FEMALE judges. If I misread the article, someone please let me know.
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Russel A. Kester
Mark, I went back and reread the article. It was three female judges who made the ruling as reported in The New York Times. Here's the link to the article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/14/world/europe/italy-assault-case-10-seconds.html
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Rev Mark D
Do you or anybody here know whether judges in Italy publish written opinions that go into the case law books like every case is here in the U.S.?
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Russel A. Kester
I don't know, but that's a great question. Surely someone here does. It would be an interesting read.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So they're red-pilled judges.
It happens.
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Rev Mark D
I would be willing to bet that if everybody who didn't like this result made public their pledge to not buy anything made or sold in italy, and not go to Italy with any tourism, until this was entirely reversed and convincingly so, we might see some serious, propotionate revision... If people stuck to their word.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Mark, do you think that would stop Italians from kissing eachother, first on the right cheek, and then the left. They even do it in public, without any shame, like two dogs! Atleast they don't lick each other's ***es, while howling!
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Russel A. Kester
Mark, I don't say this often but WTF? Are you actually calling Italians dogs because their customs for greeting one another is different than the US??? Please say I misread your post.
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ServantOfJudgement
Russell,
Carl is a chest poker, just roll with it. -
Rev Mark D
Russell, I think you meant carl, not me, I said nothing about dogs and Italians kissing each other in any of that, please get it right.
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Russel A. Kester
Yup, my bad. Sorry 😐
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Well, to begin with Russell, my name isn't Mark. And although my last name is Swedish, only one of my great grandfather's came from Sweden. The last names on my mother's side are Pistone and Maniscalco, and they came from Cicily which is pretty close to Italy, and has something to do with why I would never insult the Italian people, so watch your tongue, and quit taking things out of context. It doesn't hurt to add a little humour to our comments. We couldn't survive around here long if we were always serious.
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Russel A. Kester
Carl, your words were, " They even do it in public, without any shame, like two dogs! At Least they don't lick each other's ***es, while howling" in response to a post about not buying Italian products. Hard to see it as a joke, but it does seem to be a non sequitur.
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Rev Mark D
Well people kiss each other in France as well, what of it?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Jimmy Moon, you don't seem like a spiritual kind of minister, so what are you hoping to accomplish by writing on this blog for ULC Ministers?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
As usual, nobody in here really respects anybody else's religious values. Just a bunch of idiots voicing irrational statements based on a stupid article meant not to generate a rational comment but something based on emotion only. This isn't rational dialogue but only dialogue meant to divide so there is no respect of all the differing values this place supposedly says they uphold. It's utterly impossible to do. You can't truly be all children of the same universe when you allow religions to exist in here with those who oppose religion and are bent on destroying it. That creates two universes. Both in opposition to each other. Where is the Nazi Symbol, or BLM, Or Antifa, or KKK. I think instead of articles based on news the articles should be based on true dialogue about what people agree with first and go from there.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What planet are you on? You keep beating everybody over the head with what amounts to an official religion. That is how you are in DIRECT OPPOSITION to the two ULC rules - and the fact that they let trolls like you speak here is a direct manifestation and proof of ULC values.
"The Universal Life Church was founded on the basic belief that we are all children of the same universe and, derived from that basic belief, has established two core tenets by which it expects its ministers to conduct themselves:
1.Do only that which is right.
- Every individual is free to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment, so long as that expression does not impinge upon the rights or freedoms of others and is in accordance with the government’s laws."
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
You suffer from Trump Stress Disorder. Get over it. He'll be re-elected. Go move to Canada.
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Russel A. Kester
AMEN and blessed be in the name of the three, the one, and the sun.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What??
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Rev Mark D
Somehow I think you're complaint is not going to get much traction, I don't think getting a serious dialogue is the function of this blog, at least as far as I have been able to observe anyway. In fact I don't have any idea what the purpose is come to think of it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It is difficult to have an actual discussion.
I hope they update the software soon. IMO, they have the makings of a great online community here.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
ROTFFLMFAO 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
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Russel A. Kester
Rev. Mark, I'm crushed 💔. I think it might be that some people are making serious statements but perhaps not in the way one would in a logic or a formal debate. I've learned some things in here from you and a couple of other people and appreciate you whether we agree or disagree. So, thank you to you and all the rest, even Takaya (hope I got her name right) for being here and dialoguing. You're all very special (but some seem to be a little more special than others).
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thank you too RAK.
We don't agree on everything, but you are articulate and you make it interesting.
I appreciate your posting here.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Keith, it sounds like you're going to be leaving us to start your own blog. By bye!
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ServantOfJudgement
Keith,
Notice with this story from another country some here immediately go to Trump, some go straight for Christians and some go for both. No matter the story, that's their mantra. Some stories are parallel but polar opposite meaning one the the Christian was out of line and the parallel story the Christian was wronged in the same way but its always the Christians fault to those in their anti-christ rut.
You can not get through to, you can not reason with and you can not taverse with anyone that immediately begins to point a finger within the first sentence of a news article. They won't let you. If you say what you'd normally say you get attacked. If you say something they would say, you get attacked. I tried it when I first joined to feel out the court. It's a lose lose situation all day long. Unfortunately, this is also the landscape of our country which means we don't have much time before they boil over and blame Christians.
Personally I'm here to try to understand the perspective of the people that hate me. I'm hopeful that after enough time I'll learn to communicate better with people that have differences. That's my goal but I'm fairly discouraged. Still, where there's a will there's a way, right? Not everyone is a brick wall here, I can learn from them maybe, hopefully.-
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
SOJ - You have to understand fundamental empathic moral values, IMO.
Neglecting that, you will constantly run into a brick wall - like you do.
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth, I agree, empathy is crucial.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Let's talk about that some time.
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James Philip Reader
The judge's ruling is complete and total horseshit. How about a zero-second rule - you put your hands on anyone without their consent and it's a mandatory ten year sentence w/o parole. If you need a cell to put them in, release a non-violent drug offender.
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Sam Prater
I’m very thankful I had sons. I thought I wanted a daughter when I was young. I would skin someone alive for touching my child.
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Govannon Thunorwulf
I know that I was quite shocked when I read the headline. I did not read the story, tho. I see more and more extremes everywhere. Is this what "Life" has come too?
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Angelic Realms
Harassment is invading the 18 space around a person. Shoulder, elbow, that is is it.
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Richard Reed
There should never be any amount of time before a case can be considered for sexual harassment. Any adult knows what they are doing expessally in this kind of situation. If it was an accidental touch then the offender would or should amediantly apologize for the incident. There's no way that you can claim it was a joke.
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Gina Wimsatt
When it comes to basic human right like the right to protect one's own body, It is time for us to hold everyone equally accountable for their own behavior. This is a human issue, not an issue that should have any political agenda attached to it. Women's right are human right!
Every person should have the right to care for and protect their own body. That mean the right to say no to ANYONE for any reason. One can be traumatized by the mere threat of someone unwanted forcing touch on them. Children are the most vulnerable to this.
I can tell you from experience no one has to be touched for there to be harassment or abuse. My daughter was groomed by a male elder family member. It is one of the hardest things, as a loving attentive mother to see happen to your child. No one knew what was going on. He gave her death threats if she spoke out. But he never touched her. A handful of inappropriate comments, threats and peeping tom sort of behavior sent my baby into a tale spin that led to a suicide attempt and subsequent hospitalization.
There does not have to be a single touch, and it can wreck someones life. It wrecked our whole family for years. And changed my beautiful, outgoing star, to a withdrawn, depressed, scared victim.
Do not sleep on anything your gut tells you is wrong! Learn from us. We advocate for other girls and women who need support after abuse.
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Peter L Frank
This action sure looks like a sin, but remember Mathew 7 "Judge not, that ye be not judged." Pray for the women to find peace and let the Lord punish the wicked.
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Christopher Hudzinski
The article said this happened in Italy. Sexuality is a little bit different there from what I've seen. This behavior will likely not be tolerated here in the USA unless your a politician.
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Dan Anderson
The microsecond it occurs, it is harassment. The thinking of his 'person' is much like the thinking that if food drops on the floor, you have 5 seconds before you can't eat it. Does that apply to that same food falling on doggy doo that someone tracked into the house with their shoes?
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Richard Lee Cornell
It is Italy. Those males are raise to be slobs. He is lucky that she did not punch the guys light out.
So, no means no, only after 10 seconds? Misogynist. Someone needs to insert a fist up that judges poop shoot for 9.5 seconds and see what he says.
That Judge would be reconsidering for sure!
Matthew, your use of the words no means no are used when someone is being or about to be raped. That isn't what happened here. He wasn't forcing himself on her, he grabbed the back of he pants, I'm assuming around the waistline, and pulled them up, it seems they were sagging down. We might be accustomed to seeing people, mostly men, with their pants hanging past their anus in the back, but not every country is.
But, that gives no right to the individual to.pull her pants up. Best to just bring it to their attention. Hands off period. Someone touched me they would find themselves laid out flat very quickly.
So why didn't she? She could've immediately turned around and slapped his face. She didn't. And your right, if he'd done it to a guy he would mostly likely have been punched in the face. She didn't because men and women are completely different despite the cr*p woke people and the trans community wants us to believe. This might be one area that where Islam has it right, men and women should be separated in school and public places.
Wow, ten seconds is a long time. Groping is wrong no matter how long.
Russel - I hope the next time someone takes you by surprise ( and this appears to be from behind) that you turn and slap them immediately. And remember, they can then accuse you of assault.... oh, and yes, this was a young woman, not so used to whapping adults or expecting them to mistreat her even if she could have seen him coming - and so girls schools with no men teachers or workers at all, right, 'cause this was a custodian....and Russel - no means no - for a kiss, a hand hold, anything. That's like saying stealing isn't a crime, only murder.....please stop giving yourself excuses to be improper and rude.
I am neither improper or rude. And, yes, there have been times in my life when I had to defend myself from people who thought I would be an easy target because I was gay. Lucky for me I'd served in the Army and it didn't go down the way they expected. Which brings up the point made that society should consider if co-ed education is good or not for the students.
Russell, your view is detrimental. Being groped when you didn't ask for nor want it, does imply a level of rape. Women don't often have a voice. You should know this being in the military. And certainly young girls in school who are taught to follow what adults say...she didn't have a voice. Your comments are short-sighted and frankly inappropriate.
Amy, there was no groping so your concerns about this girl having been groped are misplaced. Today women in Western societies do have a voice which is where this took place. Kids today understand that they need to beware of adults because not all adults are trust worthy. This girl was seventeen, hardly an impressionable child who couldn't defend herself. What was your other thought? Oh, yes, that I'm somehow short-sighted. Far from it, I advocated that girls be protected from any unwanted groping by a male by recommending that the be in all girl schools. So, what could have been inappropriate in my post?
Advocating for all girls or all boys schools is an interesting idea. It seems to me that this would desocialize our children. Maby they'll move to an all boys/girls world. Children need to be around boys and girls. Imagine young adult women and men uncomfortable around oneanother. I just don't see that as the answer. Just my opinion.
Raymond, I understand your concerns about socialization. Society will always have chances for socializing between the sexes and kids still have families both nuclear and extended. And there are the social opportunities afforded by public places. I think there are persuasive arguments that both boys and girls learn better when they are in single sex educational institutions. Thank you for your thoughts. This is how the marketplace of ideas works best.
Thanks for your feedback. I agree that things work well with so many peoples ideas and thoughts being interwoven. We get to to talk with people around the world and get their points of view and its awsome. It's really nice that we can converse and compare ideas with out arguing and attacking one another. Thanks again.
RAK you seem very eager to believe the defendant and support this ruling, which basically legalizes the fondling of women by any strange man. All he has to say is he is joking/helping and he gets to cop all the free feels he wants.
Is there anything you want to tell us all about how you spend your free time?
Kenneth, oh Kenneth, you do try so hard to stir the pot. The ruling doesn't allow men to fondle women as there was no fondling involved. As for your innuendo that I might spend my free time fondle young women, couldn't be farther from the truth. I'm 100% gay and have no interest, in that way, of any female whatsoever. Bad assumption my friend.
That does explain some things. Thank you.
It explains that I'm going by the court's decision. That's it's job. It received ALL of the facts including facts we probably don't have. Neither I nor anyone here is approving of the Janitor's action. I am trusting that the court got it right based on the evidence and the crime charged. Remember that rule of law thing? This is how it works in a civil society.
The rule of law?
Tell me RAK, what do you think of the rule of common decency? What do you think about that? Or do you agree strange men should be able to grope whatever women they want?
Of course, being gay, that probably doesn't matter to you. In fact, while 'Nobody' is 'approving' the janitor's action, you probably think women get whatever they deserve. Is that it?
I've seen you criticize plenty of court decisions on this blog - but in this case suddenly it's "I trust the courts to get it right" because "That's their job". That's all it takes? That's WONDERFUL! I guess then you are ecstatic about the recent court case legalizing the discrimination against gays. But I get it - absolute faith in the courts, NO faith in women.
Kenneth, I do not agree that men should be able to go around groping any woman that they fancy. Again, this was not about groping.
As for our court system, as I understand it, the lower courts are concerned with getting the facts and then rendering a decision. The appeal courts, including SCOTUS, take up a case when it believes the lower court might have erred in some way. It does not look for additional facts, but might send the case back to the lower court to find additional facts.
The judges sitting on SCOTUS right now are very much driven by ideologies which, I fear, might cause it to be blind to the true ideals of our nation.
As for the Italian decision, it seems it had the facts before it and concluded that there was no sexual abuse. This was pretty much a case of facts unlike the controversial decisions SCOTUS has made.
Just for my edification, since you excuse the defendant's behavior in this case, perhaps you would express exactly what you think is 'proper' unwanted touching of a woman, versus improper touching of a woman.
I feel that would greatly help alleviate any misunderstanding I may have about your position.
Kenneth, thank for asking for clarification. I don't excuse the Janitor's act. I've condemned it as dumb and inappropriate. It's just that the charge made by the plaintiff was supported by the facts of the situation so she didn't meet the burden of proof required by the law. In my humble opinion, it wasn't the court that failed this young lady, but it might have been the school. Hopefully, he got fired. No school employee should conduct him or herself this way wether the student was a girl or a boy. Losing his job and possibly his pension would be a pretty stiff penalty.
I have no idea what you just said. You just said he was both guilty and not guilty. Which is it?
If he touched her inappropriately, again - what was his motive?
Why do men touch women? Because they want to help? Because they think it's funny? Or is there another reason?
Let me put that differently. Do people touch other people for NO reason?
And if anyone thinks he did that for either of the first two reasons, then someone needs to hire him to sell ice cubes to Eskimos - because he just demonstrated a real talent.
Kenneth, I said that he was not guilty of the crime of sexual assault as determined by the Italian court system. I said he was guilty of inappropriate behavior as no school employee should conduct themselves the way he did. My statements are not contradictory; to the contrary, they are complementary.
How about hands off the privates in any circumstance unless invited? How is that so hard for idiots like that to understand??
The plaintiff never accused the janitor of touching her private area. It was her bottom, presumably near her lower back and NOT inside her pants.
Would you touch her bottom uninvited?
Why not?
No one should touch her bottom or anyone else's for the reasons I've already stated, it's inappropriate. But inappropriate and sexual assault are two different things as are the difference between slapping someone's face or killing them.