Do women belong behind the pulpit? The nation’s largest Protestant denomination made their decision loud and clear: No. They've just voted overwhelmingly to officially expel two popular churches with women pastors.
The two churches – Saddleback Church of Lake Forest, California, and Fern Creek Baptist Church of Louisville, Kentucky – are now formally ousted from the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC).
A Denomination Divided
The overwhelming vote to expel Saddleback in particular comes as a shocker.
Built by Pastor Rick Warren, it is the largest church in the SBC, and one of the largest churches in the United States. Warren was one of the favorite evangelists of President Obama, and gave the invocation at President Obama’s inauguration. He's also the author of one of the best-selling books of all time "A Purpose Driven Life". When he formally retired, Pastor Katie Edwards took over as lead pastor at the church’s flagship Lake Forest campus.
That didn’t sit well with SBC leadership. The SBC believes that women do not have the biblical authority to minister, and allowing women in ministry is widely viewed as an opening of the door to more liberal church practices by many of the church’s most conservative members.
Earlier this year, the SBC voted to remove Saddleback and Fern Creek. Now they've just voted – by a margin pushing 90% – to uphold that ban.
The message is clear: women are no longer welcome to preach for the nation’s largest Protestant denomination.
Women Officially Ousted
If Tuesday’s vote to formally remove Saddleback wasn’t enough of an indication, on Wednesday, thousands of delegates representing SBC churches across the nation voted to bar women from preaching altogether. More than two-thirds of delegates passed the amendment to the SBC constitution affirming only men can pastor.
Now the estimated 1,800 women serving in pastoral positions in SBC congregations are going to have to find a new job.
“I never believed this would happen,” said Linda Barnes Popham, pastor of Fern Creek Baptist Church for some 30 years. “Why would you want to silence the voices of the faithful churches? Why?”
The war over women in Southern Baptist churches was boiling for years; now it seems settled.
Important note: if you're a female SBC member whose path to ordination has now been officially blocked, consider joining the ULC! The Universal Life Church welcomes people of all backgrounds into the ministry and does not discriminate based on immutable characteristics.
Writing on the Wall
If this came as a surprise to those churches, however, it probably shouldn’t have. The SBC’s own statement of beliefs makes clear their stance: “While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture,” it reads.
In arguing to keep women in pastoral positions in the church, former Saddleback head pastor Rick Warren pleaded with church leadership to ignore that statement.
“No one is asking any Southern Baptist to change their theology. I am not asking you to agree with our church. I am asking you to act like Southern Baptists who have historically ‘agreed to disagree’ on dozens of doctrines in order to share a common mission,” he said. “Saddleback disagrees with one word,” he argued. “That’s 99.99999999 percent in agreement! Isn’t that close enough?”
The answer, per a majority of delegates at the SBC convention in New Orleans: No.
What Next?
For many of the SBC’s conservative majority, women in pastoral leadership was a secret back door to other progressive stances. By closing that door, they are hopeful that they've squashed any chance of leftward drift.
Women in ministry was “as an early harbinger of a raft of other changes,” explained American Reformer Executive Director Joshua Abbotoy.
As their theory goes, the very idea of women pastoring over men blurs the line between “god-given” gender differences. If women are allowed to preach, what’s next?
What do you think? Is the SBC wrong to deny women the opportunity to stand at the pulpit, or is this an example of a church rightfully sticking to its theological guns?
173 comments
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Richard Lee Cornell
I know a Muslim woman who started her own Mosque all the women get to sit up front. Their rest rooms are much bigger. They tell the men is that they must cover their faces as not to offend the women there. They also have their own Imam which is a woman.
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ServantOfJudgement
I believe the biblical argument is: If there no men available or willing to teach God's word then Women can do so. God has surely placed women in very powerful positions so the angle is not that women should be kept down rather some jobs are suited for men and some are suited for women, as we know to be true. God doesn't want women to lose their nurturing nature by doing work suited for men which they're at risk of when they do.
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement,
I have to say that I find your argument here quite reasonable.
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Robert Rohr
I grew up listening to denominational doctrine against it, but I finally opened my Bible and read for myself. I did not see where the Great Commission excluded any follower and the early churches were founded, funded, and led by women. Case closed.
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Robert Rohr
I grew up listening to denominational doctrine against it, but I finally opened my Bible and read for myself. I did not see where the Great Commission excluded any follower and the early churches were founded, funded, and led by women. Case closed.
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James
It's all irrelevant
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James
Tons and tons of religion....not an ounce of salvation....
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James
Tons and tons of religion and not one ounce of salvation.
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Luisa Fernanda Montalvo Arroyave
Simple, say that they perceive themselves as men and that's it... the position of that church is ridiculous.
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Keith
I find this very disturbing! What is happening in this country? Why are all the progress and advancements of modern society in the 21 century going backward? We continued to make these advancements until the presidency of Donald Trump. His presidency was one where rights were being reversed, our country was being divided and racism and hatred are becoming rampant due to continuous lies, theory conspiracy, and a desire to control our country as a dictator and do away with our democracy. So, because of these lies that the Republican party is spreading, women's rights are being taken away from the right to make decisions about their bodies, and are being removed from being ministries in certain denominations. Progress is slowly being rolled back to a time when women had no rights, they were to do what a man told them to do, without questions. So, if these women don't stand up to these unethical decisions being made about them without any consideration of what harm these changes are causing. I think we need a female President. I believe that they can do anything a man can do and maybe do it better. This is what these power-hungry men are afraid of. They are afraid if they don't take away some of these women's rights, they will rise to the Presidency and will make these old conservative Republican men look like idiots.
Blessings, Rev. Keith
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Pastor George Day
Keith,
What does women's rights have to do with child sacrifice?
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Christina L Cooper
They seem to forget that Christ Himself called women to His ministry ...the Blessed Virgin Mary, Deborah, and Mary Magdalene to name but a few.
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Traci Googins
Anyone that believes and has faith in their heart can spread the gospel. This is so disgusting that it breaks my heart. Why does everything have to be so hateful. I own and read the book of Enoch and the Dead Sea scrolls bible and I have yet to read one single word that says anything against women preaching the gospel. So, who voted on this anyways..... All the corrupt MEN in power that are afraid of strong women on a mission!!! Thank you GOD BLESS US ALL!! REV. TRACI GOOGINS
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Paul Edward Nunis
To defrock certain pastors might be a credal matter... expelling entire congregations (including the largest) is purely a venal political move.
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Katharine Q Toler
Sometimes the best man for the job is a woman.
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Shanna Warner
I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church as the daughter of a Deacon. I left the church because of the way it treated women. The only acceptable way for a woman to serve was as a teacher of children or other women (she couldn't teach men) or as the wife of a minister.
My dad raised three daughters, trying to make us subservient, but it didn't take. LOL. We weren't allowed to wear shorts in public in the summer because WE caused men to have bad thoughts. The dialogue was that any abuse, like beatings or rape, is caused by the woman.
I am now the Spiritual Leader of a very open, loving, inclusive church in Oklahoma. My congregants, even the men, love me because I lead them with heart. I teach only love, because that is what we are.
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Lawrence Dawson
Them Batpists just don't get it.
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Wilford,B
They never have.
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Russel A. Kester
It might be good to reassess the changes made in the last 100 years to decide which turned out to be beneficial for us as a nation and which didn't.
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Russel A. Kester
It might be good for some institutions to resist the beliefs of feminist critical theory advocates and practitioners which were lead, in great part, by toxic man hating lesbians it seems. It might be good for our country and churches if we as a society reassessed the point the far left has brought us to today. The basis of any beliefs should be vigorously questioned periodically.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Back to the good old days (of Torquemada)?
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Elsie L Aimable
The bible isn't it's people who are the ones who make everything re Religious.this is why you cannot get people to believe In God because humans make God sound like he isn't fun. They act like God is a joy killer. STOP LISTENING TO FAKE CHRISTIANS. STUDY FOR YOURSELF
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Elsie L Aimable
The bible isn't it's people who are the ones who make everything re Religious.this is why you cannot get people to believe In God because humans make God sound like he isn't fun. They act like God is a joy killer. STOP LISTENING TO FAKE CHRISTIANS. STUDY FOR YOURSELF
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Larry Mager
Robert Snyder, Sir, the reason the so-called self styled "Apostle" Paul wrote those words is because at the time the Jewish congregations were divided down the middle of the synagogue and women would OCASSIONALLY. call to their husband, "Honey? What is the Rabbi talking about?" THAT is ALL the verse was talking about...nothing more. I'mnot a fan of Paul, but I do need to stand up for him when, imho, he was right.
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Larry Mager
Ladies of the SBC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please allow me to make a one word suggestion: "Lysistrata"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Robert Snyder
1 Timothy 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
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Pastor George Day
Robert Snyder,
How bigoted and obtuse to quote these passages outside their context, and yet ignore other passages that endorse women in leadership?
Paul and Timothy were pastoring and overseeing a very messy community, which still found it very hard to let go of their pagan habits. Incest, promiscuity, and, yes, idle speech from women was a daily routine. THAT is the context of this reprimand.
I suggest you take a theology class!
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Robert Snyder
1 corrintians 14:34-35 The women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.
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Robert Snyder
1 Timothy 2:11-12 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet
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Tom Herman
I'm disappointed but not surprised that this group would ban women from being pastors. Tolerance and inclusion are not the hallmarks of this one organization. The lack of diversity will be their undoing. I wonder how many women voted for this? Is it no wonder that the SBC has lost 3 million members since 2006, more than half that in the last 5 years and 1/2 million in 2022? What is left will be zealots and those will die off in the next couple of generations. In my opinion this move is synonymous with the ultra conservative white male dominant ideology of the deep south. It is about power and control of people's lives, especially women by a group who is now only a vocal minority (since their are more women than men in the US) fighting to maintain the illusion of superiority. All people regardless of gender are children of the same universe. I urge those who are opposed to leave, form their own churches and practice their faith as they see fit. The SBC is a dying breed going the way of the dinosaur. Let 'em. The evolution of society will run its course. It's their club. They can make up their rules. I don't think membership in this group is compulsory. People can choose their own path (at least so far). This group will become a one line comment is history. So be it.
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Mary E. Holt
YES. Women were not allowed to do much in the Old Testament. They were basically servants, house keepers, cared for the children used and at times abused for the 20,000 years of the OLD testament.
New Testament, same thing.
This is the year 2 thousand and twenty three, and men like those in the south were upset that a woman can preach as well as many of them. How asinine can they get.
This national attitude men have to set women back 50 or 60 years is a mistake. I have to ask: What are they afraid of?
Remember ...Better remember GOD IS IN CHARGE....NOT YOU.
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Pastor George Day
Mary E. Holt,
The Old Testament only has about 4000 years :-)
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Mary E. Holt
YES. Sexism is in the Bible. People were so used to it that it was the way life was 2000 plus years ago. Thats the NEW Testament.
The Old Testament has 3 woman in 20,000 years who are mentioned. It again was the way life was. Now hears the eye surprise!
It's the year 2000 and 23 WOW. WOMEN ARE NOT ONLY IN SOME FAMILIES THEYER SMART, AND CAPABLE. What are men afraid of?
The southern territory of this great country has always been set in their ways and stuborn beyond any understanding. Not to the wise: GOD IS IN CHARGE, NOT YOU.
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Pastor George Day
Mary E. Holt,
The South does have a track record of strict conservativism, racism, misogyny and homophobia, I'm afraid.
Nothing new under the sun!
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Diana Bowen Williford
I was raised in Virginia in a wonderful Christian home. We went to church every Sunday, and Wednesday nights for dinner. Our church was part of the SBC. In the late 80’s we chose to separate from the SBC as we wanted to have women deacons. Several years later a first female pastor arrived. While I have no issues with female pastors I haven’t to date heard one who delivered a message quite like their male counterpart. I do however have an issue with a church or organization such as the SBC stating while women are not intelligent enough to speak God’s word to a congregation, it’s still ok for them to speak and teach Sunday School liking them to be “babysitters”. It seems quite hypocritical. God’s word is God’s word no matter who speaks or teaches it. In the pulpit or classroom.
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Gene Schenck
Martin Luther king said are we going back to the dark ages when we had a son God and the earth was flat. Who the hell are they to do this we had piece marches for the blacks now you want to make women bow down to the sun as it rises in the east no wonder Jesus has not returned. If Jesus was still in the living amount earthly men I think he would want to ask God to change him into a woman. Please leave a generous donation of one penny in the offering box even that may be too much, all you women should stay home and do you own private protest at home.
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Rev. Peter
Anyone notice a growing number of empty pews in SBC churches?
"The Southern Baptist Convention," says the Christian Post, "lost more than 450,000 members in 2022, marking the largest drop in membership in a century, according to recently reported statistics."
Why would any woman accept second-class status on the basis of plumbing? As the late Colorado Rep. Pat Schroeder once explained, "I have a brain and a uterus, and I use both.″
(https://www.christianpost.com/news/sbc-suffers-largest-drop-in-membership-in-100-years-report.html)
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Rev. Peter
Anyone notice a growing number of empty pews in SBC churches? "The Southern Baptist Convention," says the Christian Post, "lost more than 450,000 members in 2022, marking the largest drop in membership in a century, according to recently reported statistics."
Why would any woman accept second-class status on the basis of plumbing? As the late Colorado Rep. Pat Schroeder once explained, "I have a brain and a uterus, and I use both.″
(https://www.christianpost.com/news/sbc-suffers-largest-drop-in-membership-in-100-years-report.html)
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Simple solution! All female church goers should boycott these stupid churches who seem to be doing everything possible to lose their congregations (and income)! Doesn’t seem a very xtian way to behave towards their congregations!
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Anthony Mark Campbell
The first person the resurrected Jesus told to tell others was Mary, a prostitute. He told her to go tell others. If it was good enough for Jesus to tell a women to tell others about Jesus, then it may be okay.
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Amber Fry
She wasn't actually a prostitute. She was introduced with another who was. She had the affliction of seeing and hearing spirits. But either way, Jesus was pretty fair and even regardless of gender.
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Gary Michael Steele
Anyone who has read any significant portion of the translated Bible would be hard put to deny it is extremely sexist.
Some biblical scholars note that this probably due more to translators’ biases than what is in the original text, but I’ve only read the English translations.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I am left wondering what happened. If, up till now, the Southern Baptists have allowed women preachers, what changed their minds? This is one of the more ridiculous things the SBC has done, and they’ve done some pretty ridiculous things. I have a feeling they are about to lose a good many parishioners. If there is a God, I’m pretty sure they’re thinking, “I really need to finish that new brain design. These people are out of control.”
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Amber Fry
My guess, women are probably doing better than the men in the church and this is their way of getting back the attention. Shut them down and get them out. It's fairly common.
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Pastor George Day
James Riggle-Johnson,
They've already lost Elevation. That's a mega church!
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Rev Wayne Steven
First of all let it be clear that I am a man or males since I was born and will remain that way however my question is is why are we as men so afraid the women that we have to oppress them do we realize that we are pressing half of the civilization in the world that is my opinion
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Ryan
It used to be, we'd take 1 step forward and 2 steps back. These days it seems, we're taking 10 steps back. From hatred, to bigotry, to racism, to "I don't like or want anything to do with that person, bc they're different from me." The world as we know it, and a large majority of the people in it, are quickly killing everything. It's become all about despise and disgust, some for good decent people, all bc of whatever anyone chooses to find fault in. How is any of this, the word of God??? Where is the love and respect that once existed, where people could just live and let live!? This is yet 1 more example of us reverting back to barbaric and controlling times. If a person feels, that they're calling is to serve God, nomatter what the gender, they SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SERVE! Utterly sickening to me, that this world seems to have gone back, 75 to 100yrs ago. I go on with my life though, hoping to see a change, and then this pops up....... If any of those women decided to open they're own church, to be at peace and help others, they'd probably be asked to tear it down, or some idiot group would probably force them to. Equality overall is non-existent and this world just saddens me overall. I've become extremely disappointed, and ashamed in humanity as a whole. Luckily there are still some decent people around. Lately it seems, not enough to make a difference. This is just icing on the cake.
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Donald J. Winfield
The "Scriptures" is very basically a reasonbly well crafted conspiracy. Virtually none of it's tenets are provable in any concrete way. There exists within its pages lines and paragraphs to reinforce whatever side of any moral or ethical position one wishes to stand upon. Current day SBC members are among the cruelest, least ethical, and inhuman of the followers of ant religion. The majority have politicised their religious beliefs to the point where they are more cult than sect. Women pastors or male pastors, this decision is senseless in an era where a large number of male Baptist preachers are being charged in sex scandals and crimes including pedophelia. Where are the pedophiles female Pastors?
The bright side of "cancelling" female Pastors is that it will likely shrink the ranks of the SBC worldwide. Clear thinking people of all possible sexual orientations will doubtlessly see the hipocracy of this mass fireing and find more liberal places to worship. Fireing female Pastors is taking a major step backwards and will, hopefully, have appropriate negative consequenses for the SBC.
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Robin Call
Wow, then all women should boycott their churches; see how long it takes them to reinstate women pastors into their churches. I guess these male pastors are afraid that the women pastors will take their jobs…Are they afraid of a little competition?
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JaZe
Sexism has always existed, but it has been exarcebated by religions where from Popes to monks men sought to raise themselves above everyone else with the excuse that they alone knew the word of God thus 'creating God' in their image. That so many people today still go along with such arrogance is disheartening.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
I recommend reading Still Christian by David P Gushee. Gives some interesting historical context to changes in the Southern Baptist religion. He is an ethicist so his perspective is interesting.
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Pastor George Day
Cheryl Pettijohn,
How does he justify only male leadership?
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Merlin
Not much different than the Taliban. Both strive to control.
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Pastor George Day
Merlin,
I think this is a bit extreme!
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Brien
Look, if you want to believe in fictional characters, you need to accept it as is. You cannot form reality around fiction. Fiction is not real. All of the worst on this planet, even in this country has been created by purely fictional beliefs. Since the zealots have decided to fight each other, I am good with it. Maybe they will realize just how stupid the beliefs are. If you want to believe in something, believe in yourself, believe in your family. Those things are real.
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Daniel Gray
Really? Ok then lets use your logic. Prove the existence of Dark Matter. You have a lot of people claiming that it exists but not one of them has been able to prove that it exists. The ones who claim it exists are using the same thing that people who believe in religions use, its called FAITH
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Rev. Kev
Religions depend on faith. As in assertion of truth with zero evidence. Such as the faith that God exists.
The scientific view of dark matter is based on direct observations of things actually happening. It's a proposed explanation for the phenomena. But no one worth their credentials says anything about it for a fact. At this point, it's ideas based on our current knowledge. But it is open to change with new data.
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Daniel Gray
Really? Ok PROVE Dark matter exist. I wont hold my breath waiting. You keep saying stuff like its proved. So far it hasnt been proved thats why they still insist its a theory, nothing more
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Michael Hunt
https://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frym.2021.576034
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Daniel Gray
Sure....and even by your own source they are depending on KIDS of 15 years and less to say they approve of this and its fact?
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Michael Hunt
No, my source is factual evidence written to help kids understand. If you still fail to understand science as explained for a child, well I can't help you there.
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Daniel Gray
No your source is a myth. You would have been better to get someone like NASA to be your source, but even NASA is not dumb enough to claim something exists that still has yet to be proved it exists. Thats why its called FAITH. And I bet you still believe in the Big Bang as well, even though the James Webb Telescope has disproved that fallacy time and time again. So tell us why anyone should believe anything you say when its so easy to prove you wrong each time?
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Pastor George Day
Michael Hunt,
So now what they don't know what it is, they call it dark matter!
I stick to the Bible!
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Rev. Kev
Daniel,
I find it odd that you are replying to my comment with the accusation that I "keep saying stuff like its proved" when I didn't write anything of the sort.
In fact, I wrote exactly the opposite.
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Daniel Gray
And I find it odd that you say in your post that there has been observances "The scientific view of dark matter is based on direct observations of things actually happening." and yet not ONE scientist says that you can observe this. nor have they actually seen this. And then you wonder why you are being called out?
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Rev. Kev
I have no idea from where you got your information to say "yet not ONE scientist says that you can observe this." Wherever it was from, you need to get rid of it. You were lied to. Or...well...you just made it up?
The reported existence of dark matter goes back to 1933 when Swiss American astronomer Fritz Zwicky discovered that the mass of all the stars in the Coma cluster of galaxies provided only about 1 percent of the mass needed to keep the galaxies from escaping the cluster's gravitational pull. Therefore, he inferred there had to be matter there that was not visible.
If we look at galaxies, themselves, observations see the most luminous matter at the center of the galaxy. So the stars at the edge of the galaxy should orbit slower than stars closer to the center to prevent spiraling away from the galaxy due to decreased gravitational pull from the galactic center. Just as the outer planets in our solar system orbit at a slower speed or they would break free of the decreased pull from our Sun. But that's not what's happening. The outer stars are moving at a greater speed than the math would predict. So there must be more matter that cannot be seen at the edge providing the gravity to keep the stars in the galaxy.
There is also the fact of observed gravitational lensing. A phenomena where light travels at a curve if it passes a bend in space time caused by a large mass. Gravitational lensing has been photographed by the Hubble and JWST observatories, to name a couple. Gravitational lensing has been photographed where there was no luminous matter to create the effect. Therefore, it can be inferred there is matter there in sufficient amounts to create the gravity well. We just can't see it.
Hence, the name dark matter.
The Euclid mission will (hopefully) be launching some time next month to map a chunk of the Universe to give astronomers and astrophysicists a better idea of the red shift of galaxies to better study galactic evolution. It will also carry out years-long measurements to try to determine how much dark matter there is.
The observations of the effect of dark matter are real and well confirmed over and over. The Big Question is: of what is dark matter made? There are several candidates on the table by astrophysicists. The problem at this point is being able to get a sample or measurement or reading that will give a definitive result. But a problem is that the candidates proposed don't interact, or barely interact, with normal matter and give off no light or other detectable energy.
So, yeah. Scientists in abundance have seen this for decades. The only people who would call me out for this are people who were ignorant of the facts.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Kev but wrong yet again (are you doing this to hope that just once in your life you get it right?)
So WHAT if one person thinks something is real that does not prove anything you need to prove it. We have images of what a molecule looks like and what an atom looks like and we can actually see them in microscopes...so where are the pictures of this myth?
And our outer planets dont orbit slower. Seems you have been lied to as since they are so far out from the sun it takes them many times what it takes us to go around the sun. Thats common sense and astronomy 101. So why are you trying to claim different? And I already know what Gravitational lensing is but it still does not show anything about this myth.
And no sorry, the actions are not proved as you claim. If that were the case then we would not have to thing about the Andromeda Galaxy as well as the Greater and lesser Megellon galaxys that sit less then a half a light year from us and all four galaxies will collide and become one major super galaxy in about a billion years. If your myth actually existed then all four of them would be racing away from each other instead of tword a collision.
So no Scientist has not see any such thing. If they had then they would be clearly able to show what they look like. I mean if they can catch Tachyons and Quarks which move at least 3 times faster then light itself moves, then they should be able to catch one of these IF they exist. The lack of proof is very telling.
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Rev. Kev
Daniel,
Where do you get one person thinking something from? I mentioned the guy who made the first observations and measurements. but a great many scientists have confirmed this. Why do you think they're dedicating expensive space observatory time, as well as a large part of an entire mission, on this?
"Gravity is stronger nearer the sun. Planets that are closer to the sun then need to have higher speeds in order to balance the higher pull of gravity. But they are also closer in so the distance they have to travel is shorter. The time for the inner planets to make 1 orbit is then a lot shorter than for the outer planets. Mercury's orbit is at a distance from the Sun which is only 0.39x that of the Earth's, so if it had the same orbital speed it would have a 'year' which is 0.39x that of the Earths also. But in fact the the 'year' for Mercury is 87.9 days, only 0.25x that of the Earth, because its orbital velocity is bigger to compensate for the higher gravitational pull. So it has a shorter distance to go around AND a higher speed, so its orbital period is much shorter. For the outer planets they have further to go and a slower speed so their orbital periods are much longer than that of the earth. e.g. Saturn is 9.5x further from the sun than the earth is, but its orbital period is 29.5x that of the earth.
"Because the outer planets move more slowly than the Earth then the Earth can catch them up and overtake them! So from the Earth we see them going backwards. This is called retrograde motion, and was one of the puzzles of ancient astronomy. This happens at opposition (sun-Earth-planet)."
http://astro.dur.ac.uk/~done/ia/ns4_ia.html
Check out the orbital velocities on this fact sheet: https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/
I can post dozens of sites dealing with planetary rotation that show the outer planets orbit at a slower speed. Because physics. A higher velocity and the Sun's gravity is too weak to hold them in its orbit.
Feel free to refute this with actual, scientific articles.
You also confused dark matter with dark energy. Did you even read anything I wrote? Dark matter has mass, so gravity. Dark energy is credited with the expansion of space-time and pushing things away.
If you plan to tell me I am wrong, bear in mind it's not me who is wrong. I'm passing on the results of decades of research by scientists who are experts in their fields.
So if you plan on saying they are wrong. You're going to need WAY more than your say-so. Because I can tell you don't have the education nor credentials to make proclamations of authority here.
I can post links to any number of articles from science sources supporting everything I wrote.
What can you offer other than "Nuh uh"?
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Pastor George Day
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ServantOfJudgement
Rev kev The hypothetical dark matter must exist for the math to come out square. I'd like to point out an engineering term, 'stacking tolerances'. This happens when measurements are based off of other measurements. If one is bad, the whole thing is bad. The theory of BB uses hypothetical math/matter which reduces the BB theory to BB hypothesis. This will be this way until they change their hypothesis or locate all cosmic matter. Until they change, you must believe in the invisible and when they change you must discard that which you previously believed. Again and again you will do this as the entire scientific community has done throughout human history, as I have done until my wake-up call. Thank God for that! Good data is good science. Bad data is religion.
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Rev. Kev
ServantOfJudgement,
I have no idea what you're writing about. To what measurements based off of other measurements are you referring, specifically?
BB/Inflation was discovered before measurements leading to dark matter. One does not depend upon the other. Both are based on specific observations and predictive models that stand on their own merits. The more data accrued, the more blanks are filled in and the theories become stronger.
Do some ideas or proposed conclusions change? Sure. Because new data can change or overturn the current position. Science is a continual and self-correcting process. Anyone who is scientifically literate goes into it with that basic understanding.
Nothing is based on unsupported belief.
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Brien
Oh Dan, I really enjoy disagreements with the mythical society, but this time you have no ground to stand on. As I said, which you didn't read, was to have faith in yourself, your family, and your friends. Those are REAL. You actually have to interact with them. The problem is, they have to want to interact with you. You seem like a toxic kind of person. I am not trying to prove the existing of math and science as these are tangible to ALL. You however seem to have a hang up with proving your fictional faith. You keep yours, and I will live brainwash free. Peace ✌️
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Daniel Gray
Sorry you can spew your nonsense anytime you wish. But that does not make you correct.
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Michael Hunt
You're a perfect example of that, Daniel.
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Daniel Gray
And we can see what I posted about you is the literal truth
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Michael Hunt
Narrator: "It's not."
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Daniel Gray
Their church, their rules. You dont like it then dont join. Its not rocket science
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Amber Fry
It goes further than that. If those in it to don't like it they are free to leave. Couple that with word spreading I don't see it staying that way for long. Either it will fade away or change it's tune back. All this back and forth and changing the rules to suit the few rather than understand and work with the many is a large part of the discontent going on at the moment, within the church and without.
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Timothy Newell
This isn't an issue of Christians, it's about man. The Pharisees were hypocrites.
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Pastor George Day
Timothy Newell,
And they're still around today!
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Cindy L Edgar
I called that segregation where men just don't want the women to preach I know a lot of men that should not preach I'm a minister there's nothing wrong with being a minister or a woman being a minister I called that Baptist trying to go back to women not allowed to say what they want to say
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William R Cox
the Baptist Church doesnt say that a woman can not preach. They are saying that the Bible says that a woman cannot be a pastor of a Church. The Bible clearly says that a woman cannot be above a man when it comes to spiritial things. Adam came first and Eve was made from Adam. They are equal, but God had demanded that a man will have the last word.
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Anthony Mark Campbell
Might be good to study church history and find out why these things were said. Who was he talking to? Why was he talking to them? What was the context? The truth may shock you.
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Amber Fry
You mean actually study? Actually learn something beyond 'the word'? The devil you say!!
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Pastor George Day
Amber Fry,
The book of Acts has no ending for a good reason: we continue the narrative with Church history.
As for women in leadership in the Bible, it has been pointed out here at length. Scroll up the posts.
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Pastor George Day
William R Cox,
You are simply twisting Scripture.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
The Baptist Church near where I live here in southern Maryland had a Pride Day BBQ on their grounds. Their marquee does not say to which convention they belong. I suspect, tis not Southern.
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Pastor George Day
Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson,
Baptists are like Anglicans and ULC. They're of many beliefs.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
I’m sure this is going to attack and keep new members, Who would want to be a member of a church that suppose to teach love and acceptance that tells women they are inferior and can’t teach scripture.
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Nicholas J Page
Discrimination and disgusting Women in the clergy are just as capable as men on doing the same.Im on your side sisters don't let me oust you from your calling.You have the same training as men .So who passes you on your training men that's who.I find the whole situation stinks as it's men who want to oust you.it makes me Sick whatever happened to equal rights.And I'm a male Minister Nick Page of the UK
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Pastor George Day
Nicholas J Page,
Which part of the UK are you?
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Sandra Cottam-Shea
What a great opportunity for the female preachers to start their own church and move away from those sad, misinformed, frightened, patriachal ways. Why is Christs message of love never at the foremost of these churches? The deep South appears to be the petri dish of some very one sided and extreme views now and historically so. They need a shake up ladies, get that goddess power revved up and remember all those formidable and life changing females in the bible :)
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John W
Completely wrong move by the misogynistic SBC. I have a female friend that is active in the Fern Creek church in question. This decision will only serve to diminish the impact of the SBC as it seeks to consolidate its power base. I am generally conservative, however I do not think that female ministers diminish the word of God and Christ. Instead, they enhance it by being able to reach across gender lines.
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John W
Completely wrong move by the misogynistic SBC. I have a female friend that is active in the Fern Creek church in question. This decision will only serve to diminish the impact of the SBC as it seeks to consolidate its power base. I am generally conservative, however I do not think that female ministers diminish the word of God and Christ. Instead, they enhance it by being able to reach across gender lines.
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Anne 'Arie
No surprise there. Baptists are the most judgmental and the most critical group I have ever had the displeasure of being associated with.
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John W
I am a bit familiar with the Fern Creek Church as I have a female friend that attends it. I feel that it is a misogynistic bad call by the SBC. The belief that only males can.preach the word of God is wrong in my personal opinion.
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
"whatever men could do women could do better."
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Amber Fry
And five other things besides.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Men do a lot of things really well - like misogyny and incompetence.
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Robert White
Women have a right to be in pulpits just as much as men. They can be bring a different perception of things that we can’t, doesn’t God almighty flow through them just as he flows through us. They should always have a voice in church just like us. Because God love his divine creation, man and woman
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Lionheart
Well, we now have genetic evidence for the evolution of mankind, and no demonstrable evidence whatsoever of any god, so to say that ‘God almighty flows through us’ is a purely fallacious statement. It’s a statement, mostly created by indoctrination. Thank you for your comment though.
🦁❤️
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Robert Earl Scruggs
It is impossible to have an argument when you are CONSCIOUS. It is impossible to be sad, angry, frustrated, depressed, when you are CONSCIOUS. Now let me define Consciousness: Consciousness is when I see only the Creator, the life within everything. I see the blue sky and white clouds, the trees, flowers, the ocean, stars, sun, moon with my physical eyes. When my spiritual eyes have been opened, I see the Life, the Creator, within all things. If I see only the objects, I am unconscious. If I see that which gives animation to all things, then I see Life, I see God.
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April Linda Wiles
Denying our creator is the exact same as denying myself. Denying Gods love is like denying love itself. It's the very reason for my own breathe. Some may look at science as a way to disprove God's hand, I see it as how he did it. Some may look to the Bible for closeness to God, I read it to figure out why he loves me. I'm a mystic so my faith doesn't fit into religion. I've been rebuked by many sustained by just our creator.
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Lionheart
Thank you, Robert, for your description of what you see as consciousness, even though it’s as fallacious as it can get, with no demonstrable evidence whatsoever that your god, or any of the worlds gods, is real.
Even the omnipotent god you believe in doesn’t seem capable of proving he’s real. He/she/it relies on mere mortals to try and convince others he’s real. Don’t you find that odd?
Anyway, I would suggest you keep supporting your beliefs, if it really helps you, like many others on earth are supporting theirs.
Thank you for your comment of what you truly belief is consciousness.
🦁❤️
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April Linda Wiles
Meanwhile, no one really asked for your comments!
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Lionheart
The 1st Amendment of the Constitution is wonderful isn't it? Don't you just love freedom of speech?
I didn't ask for your comment either, April, but the beauty of this blog is that we all get to comment on posts without having to ask permission. I like to think your comment was well meaning, but either way, thank you 🤗.
🦁♥️
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April Linda Wiles
I was hoping you would have sarcasm to comment back to me. Your comments make me laugh each time I read them. Thank you so much.
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Pastor George Day
April Linda Wiles,
Well then... laugh brings humor :-) !
Good on Lionheart!
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Amber Fry
Sarcasm doesn't always translate well in print.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
There's plenty of evidence, but you won't ever see it if you don't keep an open mind.
Think of it this way. I'm going to splash my liquid colors against the wall. What are the chances I will get the Mona Lisa portrayed as a result?
You are intelligent enough to get the point.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Seems like I don’t even need to join in on this topic. Here a religious organization has just raised its collective hand and clearly stated ‘Religion is stupid’.
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Amber Fry
I don't know about religion but some people can approach it pretty idiotically.
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Joe Stutler
Should we expect any different from the crazy cultists?
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Gary Leu
It’s just about fearful insecure men who don’t seem to be able to truly respect their wives, mothers, and daughters. An appeal to Biblical scripture on the matter is neither definitive nor helpful, if one is honest. One can easily find references to support their own particular bias.
I have a simple test that hasn’t failed me. If a God exists, I view them as a parent. The best parent one could be. The parent I wish I could be. I don’t think this is an unreasonable premise. I then ask what would a parent do? What would they want for their child? What would they do to help? Usually the answer becomes apparent to me and I feel at peace with it.
I’m a fan of Jesus. His message is one of inclusivity. He told us that we have no business judging anyone. Instead we need to deal with our own crap. We need to forgive everyone, including people we don’t like. We need to look after people we don’t even know if we’re to be called one of His. He also told us that He loved us, and not to be so hard on ourselves or on others. When I master this stuff, then I’ll move on to the silly question of if Our Father really cares about the shape of someone’s junk when they are truly spreading this simple message. Bless.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Well said.
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Amy Minckler
How else are some of these "men of god" suppose to keep diddling with children in privacy?
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Russel A. Kester
Amy, I think you're discounting how many women have molested young men. It's been an open secret among guys forever. Remember the Simon and Garfunkel song, 'Hello Mrs. Robinson?' It just wasn't illegal until recent times.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You do realize the probability of that happening is probably 1 case to 99 cases of older men molesting younger women - right?
I have no idea what point you are trying to make - because any serious examination of the facts will only show how overwhelmingly men are awful.
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Rev. Kev
Technically, the SBC has Biblical support. 1 Timothy 2:12 says: ”I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” As with many things in the Bible, however, a person can selectively pick and choose verses to suit one's particular beliefs.
I don't agree with the SBC's decision. But it is their decision to make for their organization. Plenty of other churches allow women pastors.
These SBC women pastors could always get together and just start their own Baptist organization.
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Joe Stutler
Don't get between them and a rack of pork ribs, however.
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Aldren Bernard Manson
"...These SBC women pastors could always get together and just start their own Baptist organization."
AMEN TO THAT!! HERE, HERE!
Necessity is the Mother/Creator of invention! GO FOR IT, LADIES... The Universe is ALWAYS in your favor!
Peace Love and Light!
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Rev. Jim Sutton
That's a cherrypicked reason. Pretty much everything in 1 Timothy is Paul's OPINION, NOT the word of God. As such, the SBC has no leg to stand on if their decisions are based on the opinions of mere mortals and not the actual Word Of God.
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Rev. Kev
Pretty much every one of Paul's epistles are just his opinions/beliefs to begin with. But they are included in the Biblical canon so are considered holy scripture today. A part of God's Word. Inspired by God and all that.
I'm not arguing for nor against a denomination's use of the Bible. That's their biz. And it's not like they're gonna listen to me, anyway.
Just pointing out the bit of Bible that says what it says.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Jim Sutton,
You seem to forget that the whole Bible is inspired by the Spirit, so your argument is feeble.
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Wilford,B
Exactly Rev. Kev
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Aldren Bernard Manson
Comment removed by user.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Kev,
Was Paul picking and choosing selected parts of Scripture when he allowed women to be in leadership: Priscilla, Lydia, Phobe...?
Was Jesus also selecting parts of Scripture when he made Mary Magdalene apostle to the Twelve?
There is a context in which Bible verses must go. In those days women were considered very unintelligent, not because of endorsed discrimination, but merely as a fact of life. This led them to idle speech often. I'm not saying this to say those passages affirm this attitude, but they are part of a program of formation. Once all members in each church community reach maturity of faith, then the saints can grow in responsible decisions. It starts with obedience and order.
This was particularly true for the church in Corinth. But then women moved into leadership as time moved on. All Paul's letters are evidence of these stages.
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Stacey Owens
The letter kills but the spirit gives life. Except a man be born of water (word) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. No man called of God is led to judge after the flesh. Those that are lead by the spirit of God they are the sons of God. For they will be treated as they have treated others. The standard they use in judging is the standard by which they will be judged. For the law of the spirit of life has set us free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death,
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Pastor George Day
Stacey Owens,
When Jesus said we need to be born again or water and Spirit, the water was no reference to the Word. That was a reference to baptism, aka immersion, which was already practiced by the Israelites. Even today this practice signifies purification.
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Stacey Owens
The Word is life my brother, living water. I understand that you see water as baptism, but in the spirit, Jesus was talking about the living water in reference to the word of God in 1john 5:6 This is He that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.
The holy spirit teaches that the water is the word of God. Jesus said, except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into or see the kingdom of God.
Baptism is a act of receiving the spirit. Your bearing witness by showing your born again.
But, in the spirit, in John 3. He was touching on being baptized by the word of God, the living water. This is why he said, what born of the flesh is flesh and what's born of the spirit is spirit.
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Pastor George Day
Stacey Owens,
I'm not sure where you get your theology from. If you have a bible institute that has given you a degree, then my hat's off. But as for my formation, Jesus received both baptisms: water and blood (baptism of martyrdom).
What we call water baptism was referred to as living water, or immersion, in Jewish tradition. This sort of baptism could be received more than once in life. John the Baptist's old disciples are still around today. They are known as Mandaeans or St John Christians. They practice the baptism of John (with living water) every week.
As for the Word of God, aka Torah, Jesus is just that: the incarnate Word.
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Pastor George Day
Stacey Owens,
I'm not sure where you get your theology from. If you have a bible institute that has given you a degree, then my hat's off. But as for my formation, Yeshua received both baptisms: water and blood (baptism of martyrdom).
What we call water baptism was referred to as living water, or immersion, in Jewish tradition. This sort of baptism could be received more than once in life. John the Baptist's old disciples are still around today. They are known as Mandaeans or St John Christians. They practice the baptism of John with natural living water every week. The use of water from a pool would invalidate such baptism, which is why Mandean temples are normally by a fresh river - although with their diaspora now they do accept swimming pool baptisms.
As for the Word of God, aka Torah, Yeshua is just that: the incarnate Word.
John 7:37-39 describes a moment during Sukkot when Yeshua made a statement about offering living water. Experiencing Yeshua as living water means finding spiritual nourishment, satisfaction, and fulfillment in him.
Just as water is essential for physical life, Yeshua offers a spiritual source of life and refreshment. He satisfies our deepest longings and quenches our spiritual thirst. When we experience Yeshua as living water, we find true joy, peace, and purpose in our relationship with him.
He cleanses, renews, and sustains us, providing us with eternal life and a deep connection to God. It is through him that we can experience spiritual growth, transformation, and a deep sense of fulfillment
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Marvin James Sawyer
Baptist deny the Holy Spirit too so I'm not sure they let God come to church let alone women preachers
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Cheryl Pettijohn
This is true. My southern baptist relatives have told me point blank that the gifts of the spirit are not a thing. That it was only for those in the upper room at that specific time. How bland a belief system and yet so full of hate.
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Pastor George Day
Cheryl Pettijohn,
It's called cessationism, as opposed to charismatic theology. Calvin was a cessationist, and so was Spurgeon.
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Gene Schenck
Marvin so true I talk to spirits all around including the holy spirit their are a lot of dunder heads around let all the governments be of female for the next 100 years and after 50 years of piece on earth Jesus will return to earth.
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Pastor George Day
Marvin James Sawyer,
I think you mean they embrace cessationism. However, not all of them do. Baptists are all different. The only thing they agree on is adult believers' baptism.
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Reverend Marika
The misogynists are at it again. No surprise here.
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Brien
I think this is funny as heck. Religious zealots fighting amongst themselves. I wonder if we can turn this into a sport. In the meantime, pass the popcorn 🍿😁
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Aaron J Wisti
Put it on PPV and donate the proceeds to soup kitchen ministries!
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Gee what a surprise (NOT!). Once again southerners are striping rights away from women. Women need to run, not walk, away from the Patriarchy.
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Amber Fry
It's part of why numbers are down in the church over all. Even now. A few areas might see an uptick but over all it's still going down.
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Pastor George Day
Amber Fry,
Funny enough, the few churches I've been part of are overpacked! We must be parts of two different hemispheres!
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David Arthur Lewis
Yeah, cuz there's soooo many people knockin' down the doors trying to join the Slaver Baptist Con that they can be very, very picky about who they let in. Women should of course be barefoot, pregnant, obedient, and SILENT. The Christian Club membership just keeps getting smaller and smaller.
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Amber Fry
Let them. Maybe they will grind themselves right out of existance.
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Pastor George Day
David Arthur Lewis,
You are right that SBC is racist. They were the ones who fought to maintain slavery in the US. Any surprises?
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Najah P Tamargo
Minister Najah Tamargo USA
Interesting.....but NOT surprising. Look at who we are talking about! And what "scriptures" are we speaking about? Technically there are over 220 "Bibles". These are the same people that are turning our society into A HANDMAID'S TALE. Minimizing women and returning us to the times when females were nothing but chattel and breeding stock. Point - The Jewish faith has been around longer than Christianity.....and they allow women Rabbi's. Let's not forgot that Jesus was JEWISH. I know that fact has been denied and debated for centuries....but it does not negate the fact that Jesus WAS BORN JEWISH!!! Hence the reason the first "Christian Bibles" was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. This issue makes me so angry that I just want to spew out profanities!!!! So, I am going to stop now. UUUUGGGGHHHH!!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
No there are not 220 Bibles. Translations yes. Bibles no.
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Amber Fry
Yes, but they are different enough that they may as well be different bibles.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I always liked the Gideon bible, myself.
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Pastor George Day
Amber Fry,
In what way are they 'different enough'?
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Pamela Vonbacho Ploof
That is truly the way society is heading...back a hundred years. When Some Men feel threatened they take it out on women. We, as a society are headed on a dangerous path. Can't anyone see the devil at work here? Look at history... We are doomed to repeat if we keep on this path.
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Pastor George Day
Najah P Tamargo,
Your argument is flawed on at least two points:
What you call 220 'bibles' are translations of the same one...
The first New Testament was in Greek, not Hebrew or Aramaic; there's no such thing!
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Robert Hauck, MD, FAAP
What has it been. . . over a century since our society decided that women should have the vote? Where have these Southern Baptists been for the last hundred years? Heads in the sand? Other denominations have strengthened their mission by adding women to their leadership. National service clubs have thrived after welcoming women to membership and leadership roles. I would expect that such repressive actions would come from a small sect, but seeing this largest denomination excluding women helps me understand how our nation can elect a Trump and how an ultra-conservative minority can effectively stalemate our Congress. The rest of us MUST promote gender equity! (from the father of five achieving daughters)
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Colleen McAllister
As a Baptist - not Southern - and also a woman who occasionally preaches, I am in complete disagreement with Southern Baptists. No where do I see in the Bible that women can not be Pastors. As Paul says there's no male or female we are all one in Christ. After all Lydia - a woman - ran the first church in Europe. The SBC needs to let go of their male-centric bigotry and move on.
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Leonardo I Candelario Jr
The world is just getting worst, I dont agree with this Southern Baptist Church it sounds to me more like a CULT/ Natzi group. I encourage women to preach if that is their calling at the end we are ALL children of one GOD the God of spirits.
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Dr. Melly M.
I’m totally in agreement with you. 👌🏽😎
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Gene Schenck
You inspire me one of my past lives I was a woman with 2 children. Also 3 of preaching as a male God bless you.
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Pastor George Day
Gene Schenck,
How about a trans priest?!
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Russel A. Kester
It's there faith path, and they may practice it as they see fit. There are arguments to be made for women returning to traditional roles for the sake of their family and country. I'm unconvinced that the US is better today than 100 years ago. I'm unconvinced that children are better off. I'm unconvinced that men are better off. I'm even unconvinced that women are better off.
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Pastor George Day
Colleen McAllister,
More members at our ULC church here!
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Wilberta M. Berry
The Southern Baptist males have obviously not read the Bible. Their decision is political not Biblical or they would have recognized:
Miriam the first prophetess, Deborah the judge, Huldah a prophetess, Ester the Israeli liberator, Ruth, Lydia a successful business woman, Phoebe the helper and Deaconess, Anna, Mary Magdalene and Mary Jesus' mother. These Southern Baptist men are the most hypocritical and non God loving men next to the Evangelicals. What ludicrous jokes they are.
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Graylon Morrison
You are 100% right. This stupidness need to stop God accept anyone that preaches the gospel with a pure heart, apparently these old wrinkled drawed up men calling themselves Christians are actually serving satan
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Lionheart
Do you have any demonstrable evidence that your god, and Satan, are real, or did you read that in a book somewhere?
🦁❤️
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Rev Mark D
Right on.
Best book ever: God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything. -Christopher Hitchens
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Have you ever been present at an exorcism? I have seen many. Several elements, like the swiftness into different voices, the supernatural strength, speaking in unknown languages (even local Indian dialects from Italian elderly ladies) and change of skin color are things hard to explain.
I once saw a very thin woman whom six big men could not hold stable. That is physical evidence something claiming to be a demon was in her.
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Pastor George Day
Wilberta M. Berry,
The SBC IS evangelical.
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Jake Reynolds
Idiots speaking about two completely different entities, going back 150 years on women being equal or talking about a stupid advertising move by a beer company, putting the tranny issue in with women ministers is redicules to the extreme. My true feeling would include four letter epithets, so I’m finished.
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Pastor George Day
Jake Reynolds,
What's that??
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Conservatives, particularly religious conservatives, are of the strong opinion that girls are yucky, and they really have only one use. That's what the anti-abortion movement is about as well.
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Wilberta M. Berry
Too true.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
The article isn't about abortion.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
@ Eash - I don't blame you if you don't want to talk about it.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
What does child sacrifice have to do with this?
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Nothing surprises me about the reactionary Southern Baptist Church. After all, the denomination was founded on the defense of slavery.