Brigham Young University, the private, Mormon college based in Utah, can’t seem to make up its mind on whether or not it will accept LGBTQ students. Their total about-face on whether they will tolerate same sex relationships on campus has many of its LGBTQ students feeling both betrayed and exposed.
"It was whiplash — total, complete traumatic whiplash."
Those words, spoken by a vulnerable 21-year-old bisexual student Tiauna Lomax, came after her fellow gay classmates celebrated changes to Brigham Young University's Honor Code that removed a clause prohibiting "all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings" less than a month ago. That meant LGBTQ couples could now hold hands on campus, for example, without fear of retribution. The news emboldened Lomax to come out to her parents, relieved dating women would no longer get her suspended from the private university. "I felt like I had an institution that supported me."
Church Elders 'Clarify' Brief Tolerance
But BYU’s tolerance was short-lived.
More recent "clarifications" have since walked back those remarks, flaming on-campus protests and a larger rally in front of the church's headquarters in Salt Lake City, where BYU students chanted: "Let all students date!" while singing Mormon hymns.
Church Educational System Commissioner Elder Paul V. Johnson's statement reasoned as follows: "Same-sex romantic behavior cannot lead to eternal marriage, and is therefore not compatible with the principles of the Honor Code."
Except current and former BYU students had been given the impression that as long as gay couples followed Church chastity rules and didn't have sex outside a heterosexual marriage, they could openly date and show affection on campus.
That is no longer the case.
LGBTQ Students Consider Leaving
The university's run-around means more LGBTQ students might transfer out for good.
Summer Lee-Corry, a 21-year-old queer student who transferred to Utah Valley University last year, insists BYU was no longer "a healthy place" for her, what with fears she'd be reported to the Honor Code Office and punished for maintaining even platonic relationships with other female students. "I've had several friends die by suicide. If I had stayed at BYU, I would have been one of those statistics."
Lee-Corry still attends church, and she's made it a point to insist BYU's attitude toward students like her remains at odds with her Mormon faith.
"What I learned within the Christian religion was that Jesus sat with people who nobody else would sit with. How can we call BYU 'the Lord's University' when I know that Jesus would have been part of our protest, loving and accepting the queer students there?"
While Corry may have a point, the fact is the LDS Church has continued to ostracize the LGBTQ community, even while updating its own General Handbook to encourage "kindness, inclusiveness, love for others, and respect for all human beings" and allowing gay men to serve in senior church roles... on the condition they remain chaste.
Case in point: only this year, the Mormon Church officially severed its century-old relationship with the Scouts BSA, a move many believe had plenty to do with that group's decision to welcome transgender boys, as well as openly gay youth members and adult volunteers, to shore up its own dwindling membership.
What Will BYU Do?
But then, Brigham Young University is a private institution, technically free to enact whatever rules it feels are becoming of its members and in keeping with their faith. That also means its LGBTQ students are free to leave- something that probably won’t bode well for a church looking to remain relevant with its far more liberal and progressive youth.
That is the push and pull. Question is, will the LDS Church adapt to a changing society, or double down on its antiquated beliefs?
121 comments
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John D. Partin
According to you, not basing your nonsense on science and facts is the same as "basing your views on science and facts" and name calling other people "the boy who cried wolf" is your inversion, too, of the actual truth that you are the boy who cries wolf and refuses to accept the truth!! So, come out of that self-delusion already and wake up and smell the coffee!!
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Daniel Gray
How is using science medicine and the law "crying wolf"? Still have yet to figure out where you got that silly idea from
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Daniel Gray
My ideals John, are based on fact and science. Something that you cant abide or accept. Thats no skin off my nose if you want to be the boy who cried wolf.
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Daniel Gray
"That's already been explained to you repeatedly over and over again (to protest against homophobia in those schools and to liberate them from it) and you still don't get it because you refuse to get it abd any explanations to you are just more pearls cast before swine!!"
Seems we have a person who just cant understand that if you are gay and you go to a school of your own choice and then you either know they dont abide homosexuality or you knew it going in, then the person that is doing the complaining are the ones that are the problem. No group should have to conform to newbies just to save their hurt feelings.
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John D. Partin
Seems like we have a person who just can't understand that if you are black and go to a school that isn't welcoming to black people in order to protest against that policy and open it up to future generations of black students and help make the entire society more just and equal in treatment of its citizens, yes, it is those who are complaining about those "'N'words being in our damn school that is only for white students" who are wrong!! And what is true of black students going to all white schools in order to open those schools up for black people and other minorities is also true of gay students going to homophobic and all straight schools in order to open those schools up for other gay and transgender people now and in the future!! You and your ilk need to understand that. It is sad that your mental abilities are so low that any more words than a very few overwhelm your ability to "understand" and are considered "smoke and mirrors" by you, since you don't want the truth to be told about your lies, but the truth deserves all the words for it that it takes and if it's "too much" for you, that's your problem!!
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Daniel Gray
Seems we have a person who just cant understand that race has nothing to do with this no matter how many times he tries to inject it into the conversation. He is only doing this because he cant prove the existence of a gay gene and this is his last step at being rational and he failed at that
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John D. Partin
Seems we have a person here who just can't understand that every part of humanity is related to every other part, since we are one human family, and that all bigotry is interrelated, too, and leads into and promotes each other, which even little children can understand (making them smarter than he is!), because racism and homophobia are practiced by the Klan and the Nazis, as even he admits---and still makes his stupid statement here!! He is only doing that to deflect the rightful charge of bigotry from himself, by unreasonably dividing bigotry into different categories, instead of reasonably viewing it as all ignorance, and because he can't accept sociological and existential evidence of homosexuality's being entirely natural as, in fact, scientific evidence, too, as all reasonable people do!! But his pathetic last ditch attempt at appearing "scientific" and "reasonable", in spite of himself and stumbling over his own feet, has proved to be yet another humiliating and colossal failure for him!!!
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Daniel Gray
Seems we have one person who cannot seem to understand that if you intentionally join a group or attend a school that according to you violates your lifestyle, that you now have nothing to whine and complain about as you attended the school or joined the group of your own free will
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John D. Partin
Seems, once again, following your "logic", black people couldn't have integrated into white schools, where white people didn't want or accept them. That is the whole point of integrating into schools where you aren't accepted: to get them to accept you and broaden their minds and enlighten and emancipate them from stupid bigoted "thinking". There is no whining or complaining involved or necessary, but just the forward march of Liberation!!!
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Daniel Gray
seems once again you get your panties in a knot because science medicine and the law are calling you incorrect. You want this changed Johnny boy, then do a constitutional amendment, otherwise shut your whining as it isnt doing anyone any good to have to read your ranting when you know it isnt going to change anything
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Daniel Gray
Yet another long winded sermon and nothing of any import to show for it
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John D. Partin
Because you see everything contradictory of your stupid views as "long winded", which is another evasion of really reading and considering it. You said that there are no gay or lesbian Muslims or Buddhists and I proved that you are a liar by citing names of gay and lesbian Muslims and Buddhists!! Call it "name calling" and "nothing of any import to show for it", as you always do to evade the proof against you, but you have been exposed once again as a liar!! Accept it and live with it!!
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John D. Partin
You keep proving me right about your having a Flat Earth Society mentality because when the proof of your being wrong is put right in front of your face (as with these gay and lesbian Muslims and Buddhists when you wrote that there aren't any), all that you ever do is evade and ignore facing up to and admitting the truth, the same as Flat Earthers do!! You can deny that all that you want until you turn blue in the face and your head swells up and explodes, but as long as you are still doing that, your denials are worthless and the facts speak for themselves!!
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Daniel Gray
I dont need to know what society you belong to, all anyone needs to know about you is that when you cant back up what you say you then take up 60 or 70 paragraphs of smoke and mirrors to try and confuse the issue. For example above me you have posted twice, used a lot of words and said absolutely nothing of import.
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John D. Partin
You're an IDIOT!!!! Calling you infected with Flat Earth Society mentality isn't saying that I'm a Flat Earther, as any sensible person can see, and saying that you are lying about there being "no gay or lesbian Muslims or Buddhists" after I have cited the names of gay and lesbian Muslims and Buddhists isn't "smoke and mirrors to try and confuse the issue", but is only telling the truth!! Only an IDIOT!!, such as yourself, would come off with this "I don't need to know what society you belong to" or "smoke and mirrors" BS in order to deflect and confuse the issue yourself and then accuse me and other people of what you are doing yourself!! Admit that you lied about there being "no gay or lesbian Muslims and Buddhists" and be a MAN!!!, for a change, and stop being evasive, weaselly, deflective, and devious!!!
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Daniel Gray
Typical...the best you can do is call names.
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, you say in your post here that "There are no Gay Muslims as Islam won't stand for it", but here is a list of gay and lesbian Muslims: Daayiee Abdullah, Omar Sharif Jr, Faisal Alam, Urooj Arshad, Ludovic-Mohamed Zahed, El-Farouk Khaki, Nur Warsame, Mania Akbari, Parvez Sharma, Samra Habib, Ahmed Abdullah, Eman Abdelhadi, Bilal Qureshi, Tynan Power, Ramy Eletreby, Red Summer, Omar Sarwar, Mirna Haidar, Amanda Pressman, John Badalu, and Irshad Manji. These aren't the only gay and lesbian Muslims in the world, but only some of them. More names are available from The Advocate and other sources and these came from 21 LGBT Muslims Who Are Changing the World by Jacob Ogles. Look them up!! So, your statement that "there are no gay Muslims" is, quite clearly, based on ignorance and is incorrect, as usual with you!! You say in your post that "there are no homosexuals in Buddhism", but here is a list of gay and lesbian Buddhists: Rod Meade, Larry Yang, Rev. Angel Kyodo Williams, Steve Silberman, George Takei (Mr. Sulu from the original Star Trek), Roshi Pat Enkyo O'Hara, Finn Enke, Ellen Krug, Issan Dorsey, Lama Rod Williams, Jeff Wilson, Justin Simien, Caroline Contillo, Koshin Paley Ellison, Robert Chodo Campbell, Pablo Das, Ray Buckner, Peter Sweasey, Minal Hajratwala, Jose Cabezon, James Ishmael Ford, Steve Peskind, Chris Lemig, Haleigh Atwood, Kobai Scott Whitney, John Demont, Lindsay Kyte, Buddy Nielsen, Steve Levitt, Glenn Copeland, John Harvey Negru, Kyodo Williams, and Zenju Earthlyn Manuel. These came from lionroar.com and also aren't all the gay Buddhists in the world, but only a very few of them. Look rhem up, too! So, you have been proven wrong twice now about gay Muslims and gay Buddhists. Those are certainly a lot of gay Buddhists when, according to you, "there are no homosexuals in Buddhism"!! Of course, you won't admit that you are wrong about this because you never admit that you are wrong about anything, no matter how much evidence is shown to you right in front of your face to prove that you are wrong, since you have a Flat Earth Society mentality and no amount of evidence against your statements ever proves to you that they are wrong, but your not admitting that you are wrong about these statements isn't the same thing at all as not being wrong about them, except in your confused and self-justifying mind!! That is why I won't go on with pointing out your erroneous thinking about all other religions, too, since it would just be more casting pearls before swine and talking to a Flat Earther, and that is too much work to no avail or purpose!! Besides which, you could look this all up for yourself and educate yourself for a change, instead of my wasting all that effort and time on you!! However, your two clearly erroneous statements here make all the further assumptions built upon those statements also erroneous, since a faulty premise leads to a faulty conclusion, which is just basic logic!! You say in your post that homosexuality "is a sin because the religions say it is", but that is circular "reasoning" and like the Nazis saying that Jews are "inferior" because Mein Kampf, written by an anti-Semite, says that they are "inferior"!! What else is it going to say, since it was written by someone who hated Jews?!! Likewise, what else is the Bible going to say about homosexuality than that it is a "sin", since it was written by homophobes, who merely put their words into God's mouth, in order to make Him agree with them and "sanctify" and "justify" their own views and impose them on other people even easier, making God a big ventriloquist's dummy sitting on their laps?!! The same goes for every other religion that calls homosexuality a "sin". My proof that that is what those Bible writers did is that that bigotry is there in the Bible and since God isn't actually a bigot, that bigotry had to have been put there by bigoted human beings, who put their words into God's mouth. They made God in their own image and to suit themselves!! Finally, you ask why any homosexuals would go to a school where they know for a fact that the school doesn't approve of homosexuality and join that school? But I have already answered that question repeatedly and you just refuse to listen or understand, if you even can, what I'm saying to you!! Their reason for going to those schools that don't accept homosexuality is to challenge and defy that bigotry and change their minds and open the door for future generations of gay and transgender people to gain more acceptance in society and in these schools, the same as black people went into places where they weren't welcome in order to fight for civil rights for all black people and other minorities and change people's minds and attitudes and liberate this country and make it live up to its promise of equal rights for all and all men being created equal!! That isn't hypocrisy, but only what we should be doing and the denand of freedom!!
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Daniel Gray
You can list as many as you want. But the Koran clearly says that Islam is against homosexuality. that Islamic scholars overwhelmingly teach that same-gender sex is a sin.
The Muslim holy book, the Koran, tells the story of Lot and the destruction of Sodom - and sodomy in Arabic is known as "liwat," based on Lot's name.
Men having sex with each other should be punished, the Koran says, but it doesn't say how - and it adds that they should be left alone if they repent.
The death penalty instead comes from the Hadith, or accounts of the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad. The accounts differ on the method of killing, and some accounts give lesser penalties in some circumstances. IN fact here are quotes FROM the Koran which refute everything you have said
Quotes from the Quran
Homosexuality is rejected in a number of places in the Koran. A few examples: ("Lut" is the same as "Lot" in the Bible)
Sura 7: 80-81: "And Lut said to his people: Will you commit a horror that none of the world's inhabitants have committed for you?" 7: 81-82: "You approach men with lust instead of women. No, you are a people who go beyond the limits." (also translated as: "You are excessive people") 7:84: "And we (Allah) let rain fall on them. Look how that was the end of the wrongdoers." 11:80: "They answered: you (Lut) know that we are not entitled to your daughters and you know what we want." 11:83: "When our (Allah's) command came, we turned that city (Sodom) upside down and rained layer upon layer of clay on it." 11:87: "And his people rushed to him (Lut); they had committed bad deeds before. He said: people, here are my daughters, they are cleaner for you. Fear then God and do not disgrace me for my guests. " (by abusing the messenger of Allah) 15:16: "And for those among your wives who are guilty of fornication, call up four of you as witnesses against her, and if they testify, lock her up in her house until her death, or until Allah gives her a And if two of you are guilty of this, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then leave them alone, for Allah accepts repentance and is full of grace." (This verse about “zina” is generally interpreted as a prohibition against any sex outside of marriage and does not relate to 2 women). 11:79: "They said: You (Lut) know that we are not entitled to your daughters and you know what we want." 21:75: "And to Lut we (Allah) gave wisdom and knowledge. And we delivered him from the city that acted abominably. They were indeed an angry and rebellious people." 26: 166: "You approach the men of all creatures!" 26: 167: "And you leave your wives your lord created for you!" 26: 169: "He (Lut) said," Really, I despise your conduct. " 27:55: "And Lut, said to his people, do not commit immorality against your better judgment!" 27:56: "Do you lustfully approach men instead of women? No, you are an ignorant people." 27:59: "And we (Allah) caused a rain to come upon them, and the rain was terrible for the warned." 29:30: "Do you men approach with lust and rob you on the road, and even commit atrocities in your meetings? But the answer of the people was nothing more than that they said: bring the punishment of Allah upon us as you the truth speaks. " 29:31: "He (Lut) said:" help me, my lord, against the people who cause disaster. " 29:32: "And when our messengers brought the news to Abraham, they said, We will destroy the people of this city; for its inhabitants are evil." (literally: "unjust") 54:37: "And they tried to disgrace their guests (by asking them to have sex with them). Then we took their eyes off their eyesight. Then taste my punishments and my warnings."So call it what you want but you are wrong.
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, verses put into Allah's mouth in the Koran by homophobes against homosexuality no more prove me wrong than verses put into God's mouth by homophobes in the Bible against homosexuality prove me wrong because neither of them are actually from God, but only from men who just used God to promote their own agenda of bigotry, sitting God on their laps like a big ventriloquist's dummy and making him say whatever they wanted him to say!! The homophobes today, such as yourself, who claim to "speak for God" no more actually do so than did those homophobes who wrote the Bible or the Koran. You just want to think that those verses really came from God or Allah because they agree with your homophobia, but that doesn't make it so!! The names of the gay and lesbian Muslims that I told you are those who have dismissed those homophobic "spokesmen of Allah", the same as gay and lesbian Christians have dismissed the homophobic "spokesmen of God", and follow the true teachings and voice of God or Allah, which is love and acceptance. God is love, as one of the few uncorrupted verses in the Bible actually states, and so nothing that is contrary to love, such as homophobia, can actually be God or from God!! Case closed!! I'm sure that that was too many words for you to "understand" yet again, but that's your problem!!!
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Daniel Gray
I did no such thing John, I copied them directly from the Koran, meaning I actually did something that you have not done. I READ the book. So tell me John how can you make a claim about a book you have never read because if you had then you would know I am correct and all you are doing is whining and telling stories
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, I have read the Koran and those homophobic verses in it that you quoted, but those verses' being in the Koran no more prove than they actually came from Allah than homophobic verses in the Bible actually prove that they came from God---and they are both still the work of men who put those words into their God's mouth, in order to "justify" and "sanctify" them and impose them on other people easier!! You are still incorrect and the one who is lying, telling stories, and whining here!!!
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John D. Partin
You still haven't even admitted that you lied about there being "no gay or lesbian Muslims or Buddhists", but, instead, deflect to another irrelevant issue, as usual with you, in order to avoid admitting that you lied and dealing with the issue. Admit that you lied!! As for verses in the Koran denouncing homosexuality, they didn't come from God or Allah, but only from homophobic men who put their words into Allah's mouth, the same as homophobic Bible writers put their words into God's mouth. So, it doesn't matter what they wrote against homosexuality and those gay and lesbian Muslims that I told you about have rightfully ignored those bigots and listened to and followed the true voice and mind and heart of God, which is love. This is probably too much for you to "understand" again because it's longer than "if", but that's your problem!!
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Daniel Gray
Why should I admit to a lie John? I took the items directly from the Koran and according to the Koran there ARE NO lesbians or Gay men in the Islamic faith as their holy book says that homosexuality is a sin.
Spin it any way you want to John but you lose each time.
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, the Bible supposedly says that there can't be gay Christians, either, and yet there are gay Christians because homophobic verses put into the Bible and God's mouth by homophobes don't keep gay people from loving God and having a relationship with him, since they are above all that hate posing as "godliness". Neither do homophobic verses put into Allah's mouth in the Koran by homophobes keep gay and lesbian Muslims from loving Allah and having a relationship with him, since they are also above all that hate posing as "godliness". Does someone's telling anyone else that "they can't love their father" or "their father can't love them" actually mean that they can't love their father or their father can't love them? Of course not! Neither does homophobia in the Koran or the Bible mean that God doesn't love gay people as they are or that gay people as they are can't love God. So, no matter how you try to conservative spin it, you lost again!! You should be very used to losing by now, especially when you debate with me!!!
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Daniel Gray
cant deal with reality I see.
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, your saying to me, especially, or anyone who disagrees with you that I or they "can't deal with reality" is really the whole pot factory calling a single kettle "black", considering your own unrealistic and stupid statements in this blog!! I hope that that wasn't too many words for you to "understand" yet again, but it probably was!!!
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Daniel Gray
Still cant or wont explain why if a homosexual knew the school was anti gay, why did they go there then. Thats hypocritical
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John D. Partin
That's already been explained to you repeatedly over and over again (to protest against homophobia in those schools and to liberate them from it) and you still don't get it because you refuse to get it abd any explanations to you are just more pearls cast before swine!!
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Daniel Gray
Still waiting for you to show the gay gene instead of getting your knickers in a knot because you cant disprove me when I say there isnt one
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John D. Partin
Nothing can be proved to those to whom nothing can be proved and who aren't open to proof. None are so blind as those who will not see. The mind of a bigot is like the pupil of an eye: the more light that is shone upon it, the smaller it gets! If you start off with the categorial denial of any possibility of a gay gene, you make giving you proof of it and demonstrating it impossible to you because your mind is closed up tight and barred against the possibility. You can't put anything into a closed hand or closed mind or closed heart!! Sociological, cultural, historical, and existential evidence for homosexuality's being genetic and natural are also scientific, and not only what you rigidly refer to as "science" because it supports (or you make it "support") your homophobia. It is scientific to conclude from people's continuing to indulge in behavior that is socially disadvantageous and even dangerous to them (due to violence and even murder that it brings upon them) and not being able to be swayed from that, genuinely, into more socially acceptable behavior that there must be a genetic cause for it and that it is natural to them, even if that cause hasn't been specifically found yet. Why do you and your ilk have your obvious predisposition toward bigotry if, according to you, there isn't a gene or cause inherent in people for their behavior? The bigot gene hasn't been found yet, either, but that hasn't stopped you and all other bigots from carrying on with your bigotry. So, the gene for your behavior's not having been found yet is irrelevant to your behavior itself, just as the gay gene's "not having been found yet", according to your bigotry against it, is irrelevant to homosexuality's being proved entirely natural, as it is! The proof is in the pudding!
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Darryl Mizer
Hi Daniel, The studies I have read distinguish differences in the genetic makeup of all of us. The population we are commenting on here have 1 less chromosome/gene than do. I refer to Google Scholar containing dissertations and other peer reviewed works. Even without respect to research and studies I don't understand why being gay is a sin. Please don't hold your breath. . . . .
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Daniel Gray
It is a sin because the religions say it is. There are no Gay Muslums as Islam wont stand for it. There are no homosexuals in Buddhism as they dont allow it. In fact ALL the present-day doctrines of the world's major religions do not approve of homosexuality. Now to be fair a vast majority say love the sinner, hate the sin. Which boils down to "keep it to yourself". And then you have a few religions, like Islam; that calls for a homosexual to be stoned to death or beheaded in a public area. On that I completely disagree, leave them alone as long as they dont come and suddenly demand to thrust their lifestyle down your throat or demand you change a religion thats over 20000 years old to fit their lifestyle.
Sorry but you are not going to get everyone to agree with the homosexual lifestyle nor are you going to get everyone to accept the homosexual lifestyle. So my point remains the same. If you are homosexual then exactly WHY would you go to any business or school that you know for a fact does not approve of homosexuality and join them. Thats clearly hypocritical.
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Daniel Gray
What use? it w2ould be a medical miracle since nobody in the medical field has found your mythical gay gene. Nobody in the scientific field has found it either. Seems it does not exist. SO you can use whatever you want to sleep at night, but I would bet my whole fortune that I will never see a gay gene or it will never be proved to exist. But if you are so sure that it exists, then PROVE IT!
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, has it occured to you that the same argument that you put forth against the gay gene ("no scientific evidence for it") is also put forth by atheists, such as Lionheart in here, and others here and in the world against the existence of God, and if it can't be proved to their finite human minds that there is a God, "well, then, there must not be one"? And if it can't be proved to your and other homophobes' finite human minds that there is a gay gene and a higher science and reason for its existence than you can understand, you also say, the same as atheists about God, "well, there must not be one"!! But there is evidence of God's existence, even if they refuse to consider it as evidence, and science beyond their understanding of science that proves the existence of God, the same as there is evidence of the gay gene's existence, even if you refuse to consider it as evidence, and science beyond your understanding of science that proves the existence of the gay gene----and only your prejudice and bigotry against gay people and atheists' bigotry against God keeps both you and the atheists from seeing and admitting to that!!! "There is more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in your philosophy----or science----Horatio". You argue with Lionheart about his claim that there is no God, but you put yourself in his same role and position and argue from his same kind of thinking when you say that "there is no gay gene and where is the proof of it, if there is one?". The same as the whole universe's being in front of the atheist and there being absolutely zero possibility that all of that coordination, calibration, and intelligent laws for its maintenance and existence came out of mindlessness don't convince atheists that there is any divine intelligence behind and responsible for all that, gay people's being right in front of you and other homophobes and there being absolutely zero possibility that they are gay for no reason or would go on being gay if they could do anything about it or actually come out of it (and not just pretentiously "come out of it", as in conversion therapy), in this homophobic society, don't convince you that there is a gay gene and reason for gay people's staying gay, no matter what!! You can't, consistently, argue against and condemn atheist thinking against God's existence and then turn right around and practice their same basic thinking against homosexuality or something else. When the evidence of your own eyes and experience about gay people don't prove to you that there must be a reason and scientific basis for their existence, what more evidence could there ever possibly be that would convince you and your ilk of that?!! This has, no doubt, been more pearls cast before swine with you, but I did my part and said it, anyway, even if you don't accept it again, the same as the Pharisees never accepted Jesus' words toward them!!
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Daniel Gray
Has it occured to you that I am speaking the truth and you are just upset because you cant refute it? And let the Atheist use the same argument, and the reason I say this is because they cant disprove that there isnt a Deity. All they have is FAITH that there isnt a Deity hence the reason the US Supreme Court ruled that they are a religion. And sorry but you completely lost the argument when you started in calling names like a little child with their knickers in a knot. From there on anything you were hoping to make a point with is suspect. And you did this all on your own with your eyes wide open. Or in easier terms for you to understand, your whole post is hot air as you said nothing, and then resorted to name calling, and that is the sure sign that you cant refute anything
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John D. Partin
Once again, you see "name calling" where it doesn't exist, except in your own imagination. You are always telling everyone in here that they are "calling you names" and nobody else who is reading their posts to you is seeing any name calling at all. So, it has to be all in your own mind and just your evasion and smokescreen for not answering or even considering any of their or my points and questions to you. YYou can go ahead and deny that that is what you are doing, but the truth keeps coming out every time that you post in here, no matter how much you deny it, proving that that is what you are doing. You're like the little boy who cried "wolf", until nobody believed him anymore because there wasn't ever any wolf, and you are always saying "name calling" until nobody believes you because there isn't any name calling. That is just your dodge and immaturity. Your not thinking correctly about that is just part of your not thinking correctly about anything else, either, and so "thinking" that I and other people have "lost the argument" (just because you don't want to face up to the truth about yourself or answer any questions or points in our posts to you) and that atheism is a "religion" just because of a Supreme Court ruling (because how could they ever be wrong about anything, right?) as an excuse for not caring about your similarity to their thinking is just par for the course and more of the same with you. You have a persecution complex!! Your saying that I and other people have "said nothing" and our posts are "hot air" is meaningless coming from soneone such as you who doesn't even know the truth and isn't honest to and about yourself, to make it easier for even you to understand. Your saying that you "can't be refuted" or "I haven't refuted you" and your not having been refuted or my not having refuted are two entirely different things!! What you will admit has been done to your points and what has actually been done to them are two different things. You are the one with your knickers in a knot here, to use your own childish imagery and make it easier for you to "understand"!!
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Daniel Gray
really? so you are now refuting your own posts?
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John D. Partin
Only again in your own imagination, the same as you imagine "name calling" and everything else!!
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Daniel Gray
still going off on tangents because you cat disprove what said I see
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John D. Partin
I have disproved your statements repeatedly. Your not admitting that I have done so isn't the same at all as not having done so. Maybe, that is short enough for even you to "understand", but I doubt it!!
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Daniel Gray
Still going off on tangents. You know if you would have spent half the time in trying to find scientific evidence to prove your point you would be much farther ahead then you are now with the name calling.
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John D. Partin
It hasn't even occured to you that you are "speaking the truth" because you don't believe any of the nonsense that you are talking in here yourself, but are only writing in here to read your own words and bolster up your own sagging ego and self-image of yourself with this exaggerated pretense of your "assuredness of being right" and striking out at other people!! Everybody here sees through all of that!!! You really know that all of my points about you are correct and that you do think along the same lines as atheists and so your "thinking" is as erroneous about gay people as theirs is about God. The more that you deny it, the more you prove that you really know that it's true. You will, of course, only come back with more of your pretensions of "self-assuredness, superiority, maturity, and righteousness", which you know as well as we do are just your deceiving yourself, in order to avoid listening to anyone and facing up to the truth about yourself, but it is really ridiculous for you to do so and keep up that charade any longer!!! You have long been exposed to everybody here and certainly in your "life" in the world as a fraud!!! But I'll understand if you continue that pretense and just make allowances for you, you poor thing!! We have to overlook people like you!!
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Daniel Gray
You know you are trying so very hard to get the facts changed to fit your agenda...I wonder why
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John D. Partin
No, I'm changing your stupid agenda to fit the facts and come up to reality, for a chsnge!!
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Daniel Gray
You seem to be doing a major amount of trying to refute what I said and failing each and every time.
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John D. Partin
Again, only "failing each and every time" in your own imagination, the same as you imagine "name calling" and other things because you never admit or face the truth about yourself or anything!!
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Daniel Gray
again I am still waiting for you to disprove what I have said instead of going off on tangents.
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John D. Partin
You consider zeroing in on your lies and wrong statements to be "going off on tangents", as a way of deflecting from those lies and wrong statements of yours being exposed and contradicted!! Too much for you to "understand" yet again, right?!!
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Darryl Mizer
As a retired psychologist, I'm firm in my belief that homosexuals are NOT sinners. Sexual orientation is biologically determined. homosexuality is an unalterable aspect of their identity. (Scientific American). Bible references to Sodom and Gomorrah differ widely. Actually Sodom is a mountain about 30 miles away. Sodom means salt and was referred to in many instances. Too, it was common for male workers to sleep separately from the women. Even this could have been misrepresented since virtually no one could read or write. Consider the time period.
I am a Progressive Revelationist. The things that God reveals to humanity are not all given at once. His revelation is being revealed in stages. This is known as progressive revelation. This is my reason that homosexual-ism is not a sin but a natural occurring part of life.
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Lionheart
Thanks Darryl. I’m just wondering if you have a particular god in mind that you believe is revealing things to humanity. Does it have a name? Just asking?
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Darryl Mizer
Nope - take your pick!
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Lionheart
It’s hard to choose. There are so many that mankind has created. I think I’ll pass.
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Daniel Gray
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Daniel Gray
Typical. You attack religions and then you refuse to face the fact that you cant prove there is no God and that just makes you mad, hence the reasons for your posts.
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Daniel Gray
Ok then if it is biological, then there has to be a gene that causes it. So where is it? Science says it does not exist. Medicine says it does not exist...and yet you do. So if it exists then you should be able to show the gene itself...right? I wont hold my breath waiting
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Darryl Mizer
IMO, Religion is to improve my life, not to condemn others.
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Chaplain Shawn
Greetings,
Still arguing over man's multiple interpretations of God's Word are we? There is not anything else happening in the world that has our full attention, and should take priority...guess not. Well as a man with a Bachelor's of Science in Accounting, we had to learn all about different business entities like, in this case, nonprofits. Colleges and Universities also have governance areas with their state and at the federal level as well. Since BYU is a Private university, the students are subject to their regulations. So, it does not matter how you identify. If BYU would restrict or not admit certain individuals on the basis of how they identify, then a lawsuit could rightfully be filed.
If we look at only the facts here, then we see a restriction on pda or public displays of affection. Most military bases all over the United States has pda restrictions. Uunfortunately, pda restrictions are not grounds for lawsuits. Therefore, BYU is able to implement policies that are in compliance with the United States Code of Law. The right answer was stated above. If you know the University is Supposedly Christian, then do not apply for acceptance. Any secular college or university would be a better fit in this case.
The confusion here is that many churches have become or adopted secular views to keep current with the times. It is on the secular conversion of churches apostle Paul would vehemently disagree. Paul authored Romans and Galatians. One only needs to consider those two letters to see how Christians are expected to be. One cannot be walking in the Spirit if they are hanging on to walking in the flesh. A transformation from the world is expected to occur. The transformation from the world enables one to conform and accept the Word, but the heart, mind, body, and soul needs to be saved, Spirit-filled, submit to the Word, receptive to sanctification, and for believing in Christ one will suffer. The secular world and subscribers like the suffer part. Yet, every secular civilization fell into financial irresponsibility, homosexuality, arrogance, tyranny, slavery, avarice, and malevolence.
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Lionheart
Let’s not forget that your mythical god advocated slavery, but thank you for your comment. Christians might get something from it.
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Daniel Gray
And lets not forget Lionhart that you have yet to prove that God is mythical
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Lionheart
I’m not the one making the claim that god is real, you are. If I make a claim that fairies exist it’s not for you to try and disprove it, it’s for me to back up my claim with evidence. So, where is your evidence Daniel? If you don’t have any evidence all we can assume is that your god doesn’t exist, just like it appears fairies don’t. Even your omnipotent god seems to be lacking in proving he exists. Doesn’t sound like much of a god to me if he’s real.
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Daniel Gray
No YOU are always claiming that he/she isnt real. So prove it. Either prove there is no God as you claim or stop attacking religion. Its a simple thing and its so easy even you can do it.
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Lionheart
Still you lack understanding. “No one” can prove a negative, no one. I cannot prove fairies, gods (any of them), Sasquatch, the tooth fairy, Loch Ness monster, elves, gnomes, pixies, flying saucers, et al don’t exist, as you also cannot prove they don’t exist. It’s possible that Vishnu is a real god, or even yours, but no one can prove it, even your mythical omnipotent god can’t prove he’s real.
YOU on the other hand make the claim that “one” of the gods, or all of them, ARE real. Where is your evidence? Let’s see your evidence that Thor, Vishnu, and the many hundreds of other gods are not real?
I suspect you have no evidence your god, or any god, is real because if you did you could claim the Nobel prize as the first person to do it.
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Daniel Gray
And you just proved your hatred of religions as I will ask you once again, prove there is no God. All you can do is post your OPINION and nothing more. When you start to understand that then we have made a breakthrough.
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Lionheart
Let me try and speak to you at 8th grade level. I cannot prove there is no god. I cannot prove there are no fairies. I cannot prove there are no leprechauns. Can you comprehend those statements?
Can you prove there is a god? Can you comprehend that question?
I can lower the grade of English if you prefer me to.
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Daniel Gray
Since you cant prove there isnt a God then why do you spend so much time and effort in attacking something that you say does not exist? Your specious argument is clearly making sense only to you
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Lionheart
4th grade level for you then. Prove me wrong Daniel by demonstrating your god exists, or are you going to skirt around my question. I guess I already know you will.
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Nicholas J Page
The Mormon church are a strange organisation they dress in smart suits and try to convert you to their church.God loves all mankind what ever you are gay, straight LGBT in fact when I was doing RE at school back in the 1960s genders were never discussed.Or thought about.So as I say the Mormons do try and turn you As a minister myself we doint preach or make Judgement.I love all my friends male or female or what ever gender.so what does that make me and I m straight and married with children and A granddaughter and great nephew
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Lionheart
Every religion tries to convert you, no churches have any exceptions. Fortunately, people are starting to wise up to the fallaciousness of religions. Logic and reason for the educated will always prevail.
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Carl James Thomas
First of all Jesus Christ does not condone it there same-sex marriage as he said in the scriptures he did not come to change the laws of Moses he come to fulfill them Furthermore homosexuality , in the eyes of God is murder because you are taking the seed of man which is supposed to be put into the belly of a woman to give birth to a child For those who can have children which is clearly dictated in Matthew is to leave his mother and cling unto his wife not his husband and two flesh shall become one flesh meaning having a child Blessed are those who cannot Because of impotency
So every time you spit your seed you are stopping a child from being born there for in the eyes of God you are a murderer And God does not condone murder
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Lionheart
Thank you for your comment, it is of course a fallacy, but that’s religion I guess, if you want to believe it.
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Daniel J. Trebas
Okay, first off, the article says that the mormons allow gay men to be high ranking leaders ad long as they live a "chaste" life. So apparently they AGREE with someone being LGBTQ as long as they're being "chaste" - whatever that means. Soooooo, once again we have would-be leaders telling people, "Do as I say, but not as I do". I thought this problem was due to the customary dominance of the patriarchy mind-set. But let's not forget Utah just changed their laws to allow plural marriages. Well...if every "man" had 2 or more wives then there would have to be at least twice as many women than men. But there isn't. So only the "elite" "men" could have all the women. What would the rest of the men do? Watch? Play with themselves or eachother? Or maybe convert to being a "celibate" catholic priest? Anyway, some gay men are allowed to be "chaste" mormon leaders; I guess because they have enough "pull" with the elitists hiding behind the fact they have a penis. Another example of rampant hypocrisy that is easily hidden by just focusing on whether the bible approves or not of people who are part of the LGBTQ community - which is also a part of ALL of our community. So try following the Christ example of loving your neighbors, whether or not you agree with them.
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Mrknowitall
My response is biblical, from a biblical point of view it’s right on. Yours is an opinion, everybody has an opinion, but there is only one truth. I agree there is confusion in being told they are sinners and God hates them, that is a fact I know to well. That response in propitiated by doctrinal error on both sides, the LGBT crowd and the religious ‘right’. The laws of Moses ended with Pentecost, those who don’t understand the Administrations of the Bible are wrong from the get go. Jesus Christ put an end to the law and summed it up by saying “ Love your neighbor as yourself “ Fear, confusion and hatred are all spiritual matters that come from Satan. Rightly divide the word of truth and there is no error, but the majority which includes most reading this will not even know what that means. And there you have it.
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Lionheart
Yes, your response is purely biblical and so has no credibility whatsoever, but thank you for your response.
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Daniel Gray
He has as much if not more credibility then you ever will lionhart.
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Richard Lee Cornell
LGBTQ students do not bred. No births and the church will not have the people to keep it alive.
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Chad Beckwith Smith
The Hiney is not a Vaginae it is as simple as that. God gave the Gays aids they did not listen now he has given the world Corona YES will you listen this time. No more pray, pretend and do nothing the Knights Templar are Rising up to enforce Gods nature be forewarned all of you if not Hell awaits you. If you do not post this then you will accept the sins of all those that could have been saved.
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Rev. Tim
Just... wow. Remember to take ALL of your meds ON TIME.
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John Roys Gile
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is a peculiar church. There is a prophet and 12 apostles, there is the Book of Mormon, there is an effort to bring all people to Christ. An effort to be kind to all people of every belief may have been misconstrued as acceptance of conduct not compatible with church doctrine. That position was clarified. At first glance, that position may not be understood. Many comments are not happy with the doctrine. Rather than accept that position as unacceptable, a person might consider researching and find out for themselves what the church doctrine is. A personal belief should never be governed by group think.
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Lionheart
Yes, as with all churches, they all seem peculiar with many strange doctrines, but that’s religion for you.
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Mrknowitall
Mormon student Lee-Corry was wrong as stated above, Jesus Christ would not have supported their protest. On another note, he would have loved them and lovingly taught them or would have told them to search the scriptures for Gods answer, of course the truth of Gods word is usually overshadowed by the word love and the distorted fact that most people believe that God created them which is wrong, he didn't, their parents did. The most important fact to highlight here is Suicide. Sadly many young men and women, boys and girls are committing suicide because of the fear and confusion homosexuality creates, this is real, I am a father who has dealt with the issue and had to deal with the most horrific of endings. Most of us parents will love and support our children with all our hearts, we don't want them to believe their gay, but we want them alive and well most of all. If you are a young man or women reading this and your fear of telling your parents your gay is literally killing you inside please take to heart what I have said and just tell them or write a note and tell them, believe me, your parents do not want you to live with such fear and confusion, save yourselves and and your own heart.
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Rev. Tim
No, it's not "the fear and confusion homosexuality creates". It's the fear of hateful people, and the hateful organizations to which those people belong, and what they may do to you if you are found out.. It's the confusion of being told that they are sinners, they are going against God, and that their "lifestyle choices" are reason enough to deny them the same basic civil rights that everyone else has. That's what drives these poor people to the decision that the best way to their their suffering is to end their lives.
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Lori L Rich
It plainly states in my King James Bible we are supposed to multiply and replenish the earth! So with that how are LGBTQ supposed to do that of their own bodies? America has became null to Gods word and ways! Yes God is love but he’s also wrath! His way is Not our way nor our thoughts as his! America needs to repent!
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Rev. Tim
So... in your world, those who are sterile are not allowed to marry?
I have some good friends (in Utah, of all places) who have 3 kids between them. Both are awesome mothers to their children, thanks to a local sperm bank.
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JKM
😂 The Bible isFake News
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flugo
In the above blog, Mormon student Lee-Corry suggests Jesus 'would have been part of our protest, loving and accepting the queer students there'. She'd better read her Bible! God finds most of the LGBTQxyz-er's llfestyle an abomination. He would definitely NOT have protested in support of their sinful, degrading and abnormal behavior. Jesus would have said, Repent!
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Gary Stephen Lowden
Maybe when you adhere and follow ALL the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you can talk about one law. One that many believe was discussing Canaanite fertility and sexual rituals. Funny how Jesus, in his 3 year ministry, never saw fit to comment on same sex relationships.
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Vern Dee Wall
Yawn.
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Daniel Gray
I find it extremely strange that people join religions and groups knowing full well what their stance is on homosexuality, and then once they join they now decide that the religion or group must change their whole belief system to accommodate the protestors.Just because the courts say you can get married does not make it a law that a group or business or school or religion has to change their rules to fit you. You dont like the rules of the religion or group, then dont join or dont give them your business. If you join or give them your business then you are nothing more then a hypocrite and as such should not be paid attention to to start with. KD Lang used the rules of Country Music to become famous and did a very good song called Constant Cravings which had country music playing it in the endless cycles or rotation. She had it all, fame fortune and a fantastic career. Then she suddenly decided that she was gay and then demanded the Country Music Association in Nashville at the Grand Old Opry, just give her a spot there when you have to EARN a spot there. And when they didnt she went all crazy accusing them of not jumping her to the front of the line just because she was gay now. Seems it backfired on her just like this is going to backfire on the supposed LGBTQ students there. And where is KD Lang? She isnt even cycled on Canadian Radio and they have a law in Canada that 45% of all music played on Canadian Radio must be by Canadian artists. This is no different then the Homosexual couples that sued cake makers instead of just going somewhere else, and they lost when it went to the US Supreme Court. The University should tell the LGBTQ students that they knew what the rules were before they came to the University, so its too late in the river to start whining about wanting to be on another boat.
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Brien
I fully agree. Why would ANYONE wish to join any organization that openly states it is against their life style choices? They knew the rules of this PRIVATE organization up front. Do not join an organization if you dislike the rules.
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Rev. Tim
You lost me at "life style choice",
What age were you when you decided to be hetrosexual and cisgendered?
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Daniel Gray
Ok PROVE IT what age were the people who suddenly decided to be gay or cisgendered? Were any of them below the age of 10? Nope not a one. Nice try but major fail
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
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Paolo Federico Manfrini
As a Libertarian minister, I fully agree with Daniel Gray. I would go even further: it is none of the government's business to meddle into the private lives of its citizens. No government should be involved in the matters of marriage. Marriage is a private contract between two (or more) individuals, and it should be administered by non-governmental organizations chosen by those individuals themselves, such as churches. If one church does not cater to same-sex couples, then that couple should go to one that does, and not force any organization to change its rules to fit their needs.
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John D. Partin
So, Daniel Gray, we meet again and I have to ask you, then, how would any injustices or inequalities in a school or university or anywhere else ever be addressed, challenged, and changed if only people who agree with and submit to and follow wrong policies in that organization should ever join that organization?!! The people who are already there aren't going to do it because they are just going along with those wrong policies; otherwise, they would have done it already! This idea of not joining an organization when you don't agree with their policies or intend to follow them would have kept black students out of segregated schools and black and other minority people out of workplaces and hotels and restaurants and sports, etc. that discriminated against them. Fighting against these wrong attitudes in and practices by people is the very sensible and necessary reason why people would join organizations when they don't agree with or intend to follow their policies and so that is why gay people would join Brigham Young University and other homophobic universities and organizations, despite knowing their bigoted policies beforehand, in order to challenge and change that wrong thinking!! That is how any change of any wrong thinking and elimination of evils (slavery, discrimination, anti-Semitism, racism, misogyny, etc.) ever happens!! What's wrong with that and why, according to you and your ilk, shouldn't that be happening?!!
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Daniel Gray
You need to answer the original question first. If the students knew what the rules were and had no intention of following them, then why should the university have to change to fit them? If the school or business does not follow your views then if you still get employed there or want to attend, you have no one to blame but yourself when it does not fit what you believe. Sorry but the kids are in the wrong here. And please dont start with the minorities crap as there are universities that are as a whole made up of minority women or minorities for the student body. And they have refused to let anyone else in that does not fit that outlook. So if you want to start with the name calling then you have already lost the argument.
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, you wrote "And please don't start with the minorities crap as there are universities that are as a whole made up of minority women or minorities for the student body. And they have refused to let anyone else in that does not fit that outlook". First of all, your calling talking about minorities "crap" sounds pretty racist! Secondly, it isn't only black and other minority schools or women's responsibility to deal with and fight against racism, homophobia, and all other bigotry!! It is all of our responsibility and we can't pass the buck and evade that responsibility by pushing all of that off on to minority schools and tell them to do the whole job by themselves! Otherwise, there wouldn't have been integration of schools or the need for that. Thirdly, these schools' "refusing to let anyone else in that doesn't fit that outlook" (where that has actually happened and isn't just your skewed perspective and propaganda about them!!) doesn't validate your or anyone's doing the same back to them, tit for tat, and we should be operating on a much more mature level than that!! Two wrongs don't make a right. If they jumped off the roof stiff-legged, would you do the same? And all that!! As for answering the original question of why, if the students knew what the rules were and had no intention of following them, should the university have to change to fit them, it's because they are part of the student body and the university is for them, too, and not just for the loyal little clique of lapdogs, ass kissers, brown nosers, and suckups who wag their tails and obediently follow everything they are told and listen to their Master's voice and because it's the only way, as I wrote before, that injustices and wrongs and inequalities ever get corrected. Change is a good thing, not a bad thing, and variety is the spice of life, not the curse of life, as you and other conservatives "think"! I'm not going to start with the name calling because I can win this debate entirely by logic, reason, truth, and the facts!! So, if you start with the name calling toward me, then, by your own standard and rule, you have lost the argument!!
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Daniel Gray
Typical, instead of debating the issue, you start by calling names. And by doing so destroys whatever point you think you just made.
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John D. Partin
You obviously just see "name calling" everywhere and in everything anybody says to you, as a means of avoiding considering anything that they have said to you and so not having to answer or respond to it, because I said absolutely nothing against you at all, except to someone who sees "name calling" in everything. That's just another evasion and smokescreen on your part. I've read your posts to other people here accusing them of "name calling", too, when they had actually said nothing about you, and this explains why you did that! Write back when you actually want to answer the points and questions in my post and not evade answering them again and hide behind more accusations of "name calling", which only exists in your own mind!!
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Daniel Gray
Did you or did you not call racism, homophobia, and all other bigotry, and yet you get your knickers in a knot when I tell you not to call names? I am feeling sorry for you as common sense does not visit you very often
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John D. Partin
If the shoe fits, wear it!! If you're not a homophobe, racist or any other kind of bigot, according to you, anyway, then how can talking about any of them be name calling against you, unless you have a guilty conscience or something?!! You are the one always getting your panties in a knot in here and the person that common sense never visits, as indicated by your stupid views!!
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Daniel Gray
typical come back from someone who has nothing to come back with. If the shoe fits...Good Lord, how old are you? 3? Refute my statement if you can, as I wont hold my breath waiting
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John D. Partin
Your idea of "nothing to come back with" and nothing actually to come back with are, quite obviously (except to you and your ilk), two entirely different things!! How the Hell old are you that you keep coming up with your stupid statements and childish whining about "name calling" all the time?!! Because all that sounds like you're 5 years old!! You're always calling other people "children", but really need to fix your own immaturity and stupidity before comnenting on anyone else and remove the beam from your own eye before talking about the specks in others' eyes!!! I have refuted your statement already!!! Your not admitting or even seeing that isn't the same as not doing it!!! I won't hold my breath waiting for you to be that honest or sensible!!
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Vern Dee Wall
??? But that is exactly what LGBTQ demand when they invade straight groups. "Do it our way or get lost!"
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JKM
Can’t imagine why they would want to go there.
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Lionheart
Because they believe in someone called Jesus Christ who they believe as their savior, like many Christians do that attend other parochial schools. All having different standards to attend.
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JKM
You do not suddenly decide to be gay. What a ridiculous statement. And yes, she should have expected the ignorance and poor treatment she got from that crowd. It was brave of her to show that side of who she is, but c’mon.
I do agree that someone in the LGBT should not expect a backwards, regressive, patriarchal bunch of ignorant hypocrites to change their views. It’s the same as someone living the conservative “Christian” lifestyle going to a Pride parade and expecting to have a float spewing all of their superstitious nonsense. If you decide to live the conservative “Christian” lifestyle, stay out of the pride parade. If you are LGBT, stay out of the conservative “Christian” churches.
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Lionheart
Yes I totally understand. Religion has a lot to answer for doesn’t it? Best to stay away from it!
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Daniel Gray
Oh really? Tell that nonsense to Elton John who was not only straight the vast majority of his life and almost got married, who is now gay? Tell that to Anne Hasche who suddenly decided that she was gay so she could hang around with Ellen. Tell that to Melisa Raney a CNN reporter who didnt decide she was gay until she was well into her 30's And she ADMITS it. Or Demi Lovato or Dan Levy or Lil Nas X or Miley Cyrus or Sam Smith or Ellen Page or Julianne Hough or Sarah Paulson or SARA GILBERT and a host more of so called celebs who decided they were gay. And sorry but there is no medical proof or scientific proof of a gay gene so you cannot claim you were born this way. And in fact you actually have gay people admitting that they were not born this way https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20160627-i-am-gay-but-i-wasnt-born-this-way So the person making the idiotic statement of being born this way or that you cant choose to be gay is the one who is speaking from medical ignorance and a lack of scientific education. So where exactly does that leave you?
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JKM
Medical ignorance? Such a funny little man you are. Elton John? Have you read his biography? He was pretending to be straight. The few people who said they “decided to be gay” aren’t really gay. It’s like Evangelical Christians saying they are Christians, then supporting Donald Trump. So, not really Christians after all, then. Or, does “Born Again” mean you were born that way. Born Again Christian, that is.
Don’t forget this church supports all religions, so stop acting like you cornered the market on truth. You do you, and let folks be. Nobody has to live by your beliefs. Although, if someone decides to teach in one of your indoctrination centers, they should follow your rules.
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Daniel Gray
Ok then show us the gay gene. You cant because it does not exist.
So keep on with your fantasy but dont try and claim scientific proof unless you CAN show your mythical statements are based in science.
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, and what about the alcoholics who deny their alcoholism most of their lives, despite its being seen very clearly by everyone else around them, and only come late in their lives to a realization and acceptance of their alcoholism and attempt to treat it and follow the 12 steps? Does that really mean that they weren't alcoholics before they admitted that about themselves, instead of their being alcoholics all along and just denying that to themselves?! What about racists who don't admit that they are racists or that there is anything wrong with their thinking, despite that being seen quite clearly by other people, too? What about the Pharisees, who didn't see or admit the truth about themselves that they were whited sepulchres and a brood of vipers, even though Jesus and, of course, other people, too, saw that that was the truth about them? What about all of the millions of other people down through history who haven't seen or admitted the truth about themselves until late in their lives or, very often, until their dying day and even died, still deceived about themselves? So, why would some gay people's not realizing and admitting that they were gay all along, out of this gigantic crowd and practice of the human race of others doing the same thing, until later in their lives "prove" to you that "they weren't gay for most of their lives, until they chose to be gay"?!! That certainly is an overwhelmingly lopsided perspective that you have on this matter and bias against homosexuality's being natural and genetic. Nobody would choose to be gay in this very homophobic society, where gay people are routinely insulted, ostracized, discriminated against, beaten up, and even killed, anymore than someone would choose to be Jewish in Nazi Germany, instead of being Jewish because they were Jewish and couldn't be anything else and being gay because they are gay and can't be anything else!!
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Daniel Gray
And exactly WHO were the ones that put the bottle to their lips to start with? Nobody held a gun to their heads and demanded they take the first drink or all the other drinks from then on. That was a choice they made. And again you can believe whatever helps you sleep at night but until you can come up with a gay gene proving that people are born that way, then its all for naught as nothing you say is backed by scientific or medical science. Complain all you want, but you have lost the debate before you even began
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John D. Partin
It doesn't matter that alcoholics decided to put the bottle to their lips first and kept themselves drinking. You really show no sympathy or compassion for alcoholics or others with problems by your comnent!! Your point was that gay people "weren't gay before they decided to be gay", not that somebody "held a gun to their heads and forced them to be gay or forced alcoholics to be alcoholics, and so on for everyone else". So, your remark was irrelevant. If gay people weren't gay before they "decided to be gay", then alcoholics and everyone else weren't what they were, either, before they "decided that for themselves", too, instead of that illness, quite obviously, not being their deliberate decision for themselves since, otherwise, you are lopsidedly singling gay people out and claiming something to be "true" for them that you don't claim to be true for anyone else: namely, that they aren't what they are until they admit it and recognize that about themselves, which is just ridiculous and bizarre for you to claim to "believe"!! You don't even consistently believe any of that because you don't believe that straight people are only straight or "become straight" when "they decide to be straight", do you? If you couldn't decide to be gay and gay people who "decide to be straight" are really only putting on a front and brainwashed and indoctrinated into doing so, then their homosexuality is as natural to them as your heterosexuality is to you and your claiming otherwise is just your operating on a double standard. That is a logical, consistent, and fair standard, instead of your double standard! The gay gene is proved by your not becoming gay, since you don't have it, and by gay people's refusing to stop being gay, despite all the acceptance, advantages, and safety that they would have if they did so!! Nobody would choose to be gay in this society. That isn't complaining, but merely stating facts!! Your not admitting to or even recognizing those facts don't make them unreal or wrong, but only you wrong for not doing so, and proves that you have lost the debate before you even began!!
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Daniel Gray
Then show the mythical gay gene. I wont hold my breath waiting for you as it does not and never has existed.
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John D. Partin
What use or good would it be trying to show you any evidence of the gay gene or prove it to you when you have already closed your mind to any possibility of its existence and refuse to consider any evidence of its existence at all and state dogmatically that "it does not and never has existed", anymore than it does to talk to anybody else about anything that they have irrevocably closed their minds against?!! Anymore than it does to talk to white racists about black people or Nazis about Jews or any other bigots about the objects of their bigotry and closedmindedness!! It is an exercize in futility and beating our heads against a stone wall!! If you have ever tried to reason with any of these other bigots and saw the impossibility of ever getting through to them, assuming that you have ever done that and don't agree with them, too, then you have experienced the same frustration with them that other people experience with you and got a taste of your own medicine!! I have already presented evidence of this gene to you, which would be accepted as evidence by everyone who hasn't permanently closed their mind against it!! It is already obvious to anyone to whom it can be obvious and if it isn't obvious to you, there is an obvious reason for that!! You're not able to get it or honestly admit it!!
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JKM
But Lionhart, there are Christian schools that don’t subscribe to those silly notions.
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Lionheart
Yes, and I’m sure there are some that do. It’s just how religion is, depending on how orthodox the schools are. Some are quite rigid, and some not so rigid.
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Lori Mongillo
I can't imagine why either, JKM. If they reject these schools, over time the schools will begin to feel the stress and lack of money. Money will always turn things around.
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JKM
What a lovely day that will be, Lori. Ignorance has a price.
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Rodney Knight
They will continue on blindly as they always have just as most other churches have through history
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Lionheart
I would rephrase that and say just like “all” churches have throughout history.
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flugo
'lyin' fart': Intelligent English teachers, writers and professional speakers invariably avoid using the term 'all'. It's called a 'gross generalization' . . . and it invariably connotes a falsehood. You have NOT done a survey of all the churches of history. You don't KNOW for sure. You're assumption is false and full of holes.
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Sparking controversy is a painful way to grow, ultimately leading to the self realization that the struggle solely lies with the self. I find myself wondering what we are discussing. It seems the only worth while action is to attempt to make a connection, reach out, rather than lash out at the winds of change. Whether we succeed or fail seems moot. Victory is in the attempt