Many have called Pope Francis the most LGBTQ+ friendly pope in history. They may be retracting that opinion soon.
The Vatican just released a long awaited document entitled “Infinite Dignity,” which lists “gender theory” as one of the leading threats facing humanity, alongside heavy hitters like war, poverty, and famine.
Now, pro-trans activists are pushing back on the address, and some are suggesting that if the Catholic Church wants to find a grave threat against humanity, perhaps they could look within their own leadership first.
Does Transitioning Threaten Dignity?
The Vatican's document begins by stating people have an inherent dignity bestowed upon them by their creator, then lists many of what the Catholic Church argues are existential threats to said dignity.
As expected, war, poverty, and famine are all listed.
But many were surprised to see the Vatican also list gender theory and gender-affirming surgery as existential threats to humanity, especially given Pope Francis's past comments expressing support for LGBTQ+ rights.
The Vatican's document states that gender is immutable, that a person’s gender cannot be different from what they were assigned from birth, and that “all attempts to obscure reference to the ineliminable sexual difference between man and woman are to be rejected.”
The document argues that gender transitioning – or ‘sex change’, as the document refers to it as – violates God’s intentions. “Any sex-change intervention, as a rule, risks threatening the unique dignity the person has received from the moment of conception,” it reads.
“Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes... amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God, entering into competition with the true God of love revealed to us in the Gospel."
“Infinite Dignity” has been in the works for some five years, and was approved by Pope Francis.
Trans Catholics React
Transgender Catholics were outraged at the document, many expressing feeling betrayed at what they call an about-face for a pope long viewed as LGBTQ+-friendly.
“A document like this is very hurtful to the larger LGBTQ+ community but especially to the trans community,” explains Maxwell Kuzma, a trans Catholic man.
"We have seen the care and love Pope Francis has personally extended to the trans community in his personal interactions, yet this document fails to extend that same respect, love, and support.”
“Transgender persons are being condemned for who we are, and more importantly we become subject to potential harm,” wrote Christine Zuba, a transgender Catholic woman. “It again (sadly) gives fuel to those who continue to deny our existence.”
Others reported feeling "whiplash" after reading the document:
Glass Houses?
The pushback extended beyond the LGBTQ+ community. Many found a certain irony in the Catholic Church, an organization frequently mired in controversy, releasing a document identifying threats to humanity.
Some critics referenced the child sexual abuse scandals which have plagued the Church in recent decades:
Author Jill Filipovic, in particular, did not mince words:
Still others took a different approach, appealing to religious people to stand up for trans rights:
However, some Catholics cheered the document for being in line with the Church's traditionalist beliefs about gender and creation:
What is your reaction? Is gender ideology and transgender surgery really a threat to humanity on par with war, poverty, and famine?
What do you make of the Vatican's document – and the pope's sign-off on it?
98 comments
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Katelynne Shouse
Screw the Evangelicals, both Protestant and Catholic!
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Val Jester
What an erudite and intellectual comment. BTW, you cannot do what you declare after completing “gender affirming” care.
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Joe Stutler
Yes, one can. Maybe learn a bit about the various care available before spewing nonsense. Also, homophobia and transphobia are treatable illnesses. Please consult with a licensed mental health care professional for more information and help. You don't have to continue to suffer.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Oh really. I wouldn't accept the opinion of most of these medical hemp professionals if they're WOKE.
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Joe Stutler
Those who use the term "woke" in such a manner are not smart enough to consider their opinions as anything other than porcine feces.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Val Jester, Lol! Ladies have been having sex with other ladies for thousands of years. Get a clue.
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Russel A. Kester
Klaire, I'm gonna go with Queen Victoria on this one who outlawed sex between men but not women in the Criminal Law Amendment Act of 1885 because she couldn't image what two women could do together that could rightly be called sex.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Either that's tongue-in-cheek, in which case I would say Bravo or, you don't know what an orgasm looks like! 🤣 Hard to tell from your wording.
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Warren Calvin Wall
I don't believe that the cheek is where that tongue was headed. ;)
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Scott Smith
That's not why, @Russel A. Kester .
The men had died in war, and she needed to repopulate her subjects. There was a shortage of men.
I over simplify, however, supporting facts can be searched should you choose.
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Russel A. Kester
Scott,
According to the myth, the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885 originally contained provisions criminalizing homosexual activity between women as well as men, but Victoria refused to sign the bill until the provisions relating to women were removed, arguing that “women do not do such things.” https://venerablepuzzle.wordpress.com/2015/09/18/the-curious-case-of-the-queen-victoria-and-the-lesbians/
I find your reasoning dubious. It was a morality law, not a population law. After all, one man could inseminate entire counties and once women are pregnant they don't need more men on the job. However, it was a time of moral reform as the quote below indicates.
"Before the Victorian Era, its previous leaders and their debaucheries influenced England's public. However, when Queen Victoria came into ruling she raised their moral codes and no longer accepted England's vulgarity and debauchery." https://www.bartleby.com/essay/Queen-Victorias-Morality-During-The-Victorian-Era-CF6BB9168677525C
Now perhaps you would be so kind as to provide your supporting facts.
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He Who Breathes
And you were expecting enlightenment...
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Joe Stutler
His deity could have banned slavery. Instead, it banned pork. So much for any claims of morality.
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Russel A. Kester
The first thing I noticed after reading this article is that there were many quotes from people who were against the Catholic churches position and only one in favor of it. That seems to be a very slanted way for an article like this to read. I am looking forward to reading that document and might have more to say later after I do. At the moment, I believe the Pope's position is consistent with the Catholic churches beliefs. I also agree that a person should not change their physical sexual organs and should accept those they were given at birth by God. One can be either a very masculine or a rather effeminate man. But they are a man. Likewise, a woman can be a very feminine woman or a tomboy. Both are wonderful and acceptable. Recently the cast report in the UK indicated the harm done to children by so-called gender affirming care. Perhaps now it's time to realize that even adults can be injured spiritually by being something other than what God created them to be I have no issues about gay or lesbians they are part of God's creation. But when God creates you with a penis or a vagina you stay with that. The Pope is right to do otherwise is to play God.
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John Condron
You are absolutely right, Russel A. Kester. People who are born with poor vision should not wear glasses. And people who are born with heart defects should just live with them... or just die, as god intended.
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Russel A. Kester
John and Joe (below) the examples you both cited are physical defects. A penis or a vagina is not a physical defect. They are healthy sexual organs. But to use your examples correctly, if a doctor operated on a patient giving him or her bad vision, a heart defect, a cleft palate, or a club foot then, yes, that would be wrong and against both church teaching and the hippocratic oath.
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Joe Stutler
So....club foot and cleft palate....no fixing those, either....right? No cochlear implants, no valve replacements, no infant cardiac surgeries? Hmmmmmm......🤔
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Marilyn
Those are absurd comparisons with surgery to change your genitals. I personally don't care what people call themselves or what they do to themselves.But to say it's the same thing as wearing glasses.Or other medical devices to assist the body is ridiculous
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Val Jester
You are so right. Thank you.
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Robert James Ruhnke
The problem with your premise? Even those who do believe, in whatever really, don’t agree with your premise, or with the fact that you believe you have the right to take others choices away from them. Popes have been playing good for 1700 years now. They had no right to do what they’ve done. Gender is not the black and white logical fallacy you’re trying to project here. You play god by voting for people restricting others their right to exist in terms not defined by you or your cult. Tomboys and Transmen are two different things. Femmes and Trans women are the same. No more less. Your facile and lack of understanding of biology and all other sciences backing the existence of trans people doesn’t make you or the pope right.
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ServantOfJudgement
Robert
If women and trans women are the same why not say women and women are the same? Why does two of the same thing have a different internal organs? Does saying they're the same thing make them the same thing?
If I paint an orange red can I call it an apple or to I have to put apple seeds in the orange before I can call it an apple?
Apples and red oranges are the same. Yep, that sounds about as weird as I thought it would.
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Russel A. Kester
Robert, I didn't see anything in the article that took away the right for an assenting adult to damage his or her body. I simply stated that to do so is a tragedy and a sin. I suspect that was the Pope's position, but again will need to read the official church document. So, no legal right to self mutilation has been taken away. However, you err in thinking that biology and gender are two separate things. They are not. Like the trinity they're one and the same. That said, yes I support laws forbidding anyone from attempting to transition children. As I wrote, the Cass Report completed by the UK government made clear that transitioning children does irreparable harm. The only persons trying to play God are those who seek to transition children or mutilate their own bodies.
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Robert James Ruhnke
The difference between Gender, Biology, and the Trinity? Gender and biology are real. Your trinity is a cheap knock off metaphor of Maiden, Mother, and Crone.
And no, Gender and Sex aren’t the same thing. I was taught this in psychology, biology, anthropology, sociology, and several other college courses. Social science was my major, but I like science in general.
Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed. Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, expressions and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender diverse people.
The Cass Report is a bad jumble of biases and antiquated bs that attempts to pass itself off as scientific when it’s just the garbled lunacy of more anti trans peak clutchers.
The Cass interim report couldn’t take a decision on whether being trans is pathological. It couldn’t even take a decision on whether trans kids are better off being loved and supported or put through conversion torture. It is not acceptable. The references and evidence base are deeply biased and flawed. It is yet another total failure for trans kids in the UK. There are still no trans experts involved in a senior role in the Cass review.
The Cass process seems to think the exclusion of trans people is acceptable, because they have told themselves they are not dealing with trans people at all. They have told themselves they are dealing with healthcare for ‘children suffering from gender distress’. This phrasing has become standard.
It ignores more than two decades of clinical experience in this area as well as existing evidence showing the benefits of these hormonal interventions on the mental health and quality of life of gender diverse young people. Secondly, it will take many years to obtain these long term data. Finally, Cass acknowledges that when there is no realistic prospect of filling evidence gaps in a timely way, professional consensus should be developed on the correct way to proceed.” Such consensus already exists outside the UK. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, and the World professional Association for Transgender Health have all endorsed the use of these hormonal treatments in gender diverse young people, but curiously these consensus based clinical guidelines and position statements receive little or no mention in the interim report.
In short Kester, you use a lot of bunk data to throw trans people under the bus in an attempt to save your own neck in front of those who would eventually turn on you anyway.
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William Lewis Vass
Robert as a Dad of a trans man I can say this. It's been proven children as young as 3-4 years of age can recognize in their selves if they are the incorrect sex or gender. Now that being said I don't agree with using hormone therapy on children unless it becomes a threat to the child's well being, both physical and mental. Surgery to transition from one gender to the other should only be done on consenting adults. Beyond that I think that it's the individual's right to decide for themselves who they are. No one should be allowed to make those decisions for them. When it comes to children who are suffering from gender dysphoria parents should take the time to listen and together make the best decision for the child. As far as the pope goes and the catholic priesthood they tell you it's not in someone's best interest to look for answers from the medical and psychological community but to follow gods will. It must then be assumed that god allows them to rape and molest children. This isn't about religion or government. It's all about the safety and well-being of those who truly know in their heart that that they are in the wrong body. Religion is a tool used by man to instill fear in a person's mind and thereby controlling them for their purposes. Whew, didn't think I'd write this much. I only wanted to say Robert I think you've hit the nail on the head and drove it home.
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Robert James Ruhnke
I pray every day your son and the many trans sons and daughters of our communities are safe.
I don’t disagree that trans care should be age appropriate every step of the way. Outside of corrective surgery, bottom and top surgeries shouldn’t be attempted until the person is 18 or at least has gone through all their options. The thing I understand about Trans People, is that for some, not all, it’s a phase, and that’s okay too. What bothers me is when conservatives take already vulnerable people, such as someone coming out of transition, and try to weaponize their narrative against people who’ve successfully transitioned. I get irate when gays and lesbians try and do the trans community what they’ve been doing to bi community for years, erase our existence and take up that space. So Kester here takes the cake for being gay and conservative leaning. He’s the type of kook who overlooks the GOP’s defense of child marriage whilst projecting trans people as grooming kids. I appreciate your comment.
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Rolando Couce
The Pope is part of the evil in this world
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
If there is such a thing as evil.
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Steven Ferrell
I have not agreed with this Pope in many things, but this one I agree. It is wrong to do this stuff to a child.
My one grandchild who was born a girl was in a school that supposedly was 23% trans, so at 13 decided she was trans and a boy.
My daughter and SIL got on board because that is what a shrink told them to do. They went into debt starting the child on hormones to be male, having breasts removed at 16, having name changed to a boys name.
Now the child is 22, met a young man and fallen head over heels for him. Now is back to dressing like a girl, wearing hair like a girl and contemplating having implants put in to have breasts again. She now tells me she should not have done all that to herself, but is worried she will make her mother angry because her mom had been such a huge cheerleader for her being a boy.
I never supported the whole trans thing, would not refer to her as him or he, used a nickname rather than the boys name. Now the child understands why I said it was a mistake to do all that stuff to a minor. Why they should wait till the kid was adult age to make those life changing decisions. Now is asking me how to tell mom she blames her for getting all those changes done to her.-
Russel A. Kester
Steven, thank you for sharing such a personal and tragic experience with us. That took courage.
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Gary Young
Sorry Mr Pope, you're wrong. Along with war, overpopulation, and disease humanity is still being destroyed by large scale organized religions. Apocolytes trying to hasten their self fulfilling prophecy of end times encourage calamity. This insane fundamentalist race to ruin people's lives in the name of Biblical prophecy is probably the chief threat to mankind.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
The only religion killing off humanity is secular humanism. The culture of death. Everything it proclaims is death related. Religion whatever you follow is not killing off humanity, except fanaticals in those religions. Tje whole in general is not fanatical. Biblical prophecy is not a threat to humanity because it came from the mouth of God. It's man defying God in the guise of secular humanism that defies the Divine Being of Creation.
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ServantOfJudgement
Some time ago long before the transgender fad arrived, I saw a news program where a woman wanted to be blind. She finally convinced a doctor to make her blind. Now she's permanently blind.
Later when the transgender fad hit I immediately thought of that poor woman and the wicked doctor that did it to her. We've got people wanting to cut functional and healthy body parts off and doctors willing to do it. That's shocking to me. I suppose if you're and adult and you want to mutilate yourself, who am I to say yes or no? People install horns, sharpen teeth, tattoo eyeballs black, filet flesh for scar tattoos, install see through gauges in cheeks and just about anything you could imagine to look how they want to. Usually demonic. Maybe always demonic. Ever get a bag of fast food from a demon chick running the window? Makes the food taste crappy(er).
In my opinion these things are in effect destroying a Picasso or Rembrandt. I'm not attracted to men but men are handsome when they bathe and drag a comb across their head. Women are like sunsets, each one is beautiful and each one is different. Women are the most beautiful and graceful creatures I've ever laid my eyes upon and easily put anything in nature to shame. Women make ugly men and men make hideous women. No offense, just my opinion.
Biblically it's safe to say God does not want us to destroy our bodies. He wants his people to look after ourselves and take precious care of our bodies. We all falter in one way or another, at least I do but I don't stop trying. This only applies to believers, non believers are not held to that standard.
If you're not a Christian, chop away. Please keep your hands of the kids though. Christian or not, it's child abuse in one of the most grotesque forms I've heard of. Government sanctioned and doctor approved, parental consent not required. An abomination of desolation.
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James Riggle-Johnson
@ServentOfJudgement, Recpectfullly, Transgender is neither fad, or recent. Transgender has been around for a long, long, time. It is only recently become a rallying cry for the far-right conservatives. I doubt it would be much in the news had they not picked it for sensationalist purposes. This is nothing new. I met my first transgender man over 35 years ago.
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ServantOfJudgement
James, yea I know dudes've been wearing women's clothing prolly since there was women's clothing. It's recorded in the bible, not sure if that the first place it's been documented but it's in there. Says it's a no-no for obvious reasons.
The hard left creates a new word that means the same thing as the old word. I guess they call it politically correct. Often the word doesn't even mean what the word means. I'm using the word in its literal sense, not the faddish definition. I mean genital alteration on the high end and puberty blockers on the low end.
Whole circles of school friends near simultaneously declare themselves a new gender. Hollywood movie stars all race to their publicists to announce the new genders for most or all of their kids so they can land that next sweet gig. Musicians love changing their gender and sexuality. It's good for the retirement fund and it's fun with the coke and ecstacy. People that think they live dreary lives can spice things up with their spouse by switching genders and staying married, that way a bro can chunk out kids that'll get the chance to choose their gender at 3, with xems birthing unit's guidance of course. They always choose wisely when that happens. When I see a 4 year old with a pink and blue Mohawk and kiddie tattoos I know those parents are down with the struggle. They get things done the right way, the inclusive way, the woke way. Employers hire diversity experts to train up us old thinkers so we know how to safely address gender #36 without offending gender #63. I never did find my gender in the listing, I might be the only one with it but I'm pretty sure my band mates are the same gender as me. It's not polite to ask people with my gender what our gender is.
These things are a terrible fad that destroys the continuity of a family, country and people. I guess in Canada they're whipping up a law that'll get a fella in prison for calling a xem a he. This equates to punishment for a way of thinking. Either speak our speak or you go to jail and your family gets evicted from their home when the checks to the bank stop. You either speak the speak under duress, join the club or go to jail. I've heard the pioneering Canadians are going to make the law ex post facto.
Kiss Canada goodbye if they become that sophisticated and inclusive.
This has all the earmarks of a mass movement and a fad. A terrible one that's cutting breasts from children.
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ, James said most of what I was going to say, but would like to add. What about those that inject Botox, go through surgeries to alter their looks (nose jobs, liposuction, tummy tucks, etc), or (heaven-forbid) to correct some deformity? Shouldn't these also be a threat to humanity (I'm actually having a hard time getting my head around what "threat to humanity" means)? Some women are born with testes (usually inside the abdomen, like in boys before they drop prior to birth), and some men have "ambiguous genetalia" which may genetically be female. There is a legitimate time and a place for gender reassignments.
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Russel A. Kester
James, I don't know why you think that has only recently become a rallying cry for the far-right when it has been the far-left that has pushed this ideology onto society. No, we did not have transgendered people 35 years ago we had transsexuals. The terms are not synonymous. Those are two terms activists are trying to confuse. 45 years ago, when I came out, we had lesbians and gays. Period. The term transgender is meaningless because no one can change his or her gender. One can be a transvestite however.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Russel, I suggest you do a little more research. The very first sex reassignment surgery was performed in 1931 in Burlin, Germany. The term Transgender is more of an umbrella for everything from transsexual “what we are talking about here” to transvestite “people wearing the cloths of the opposite sex.
The fact that you didn’t meet any transexuals 45 years ago doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. The person I was referring to from the ‘80s was transexual. She was undergoing hormone therapy at the time in preparation for surgery. Here is a link to a paper from the American Medical Association’s “Journal of Ethics” from 2023.
https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/sites/joedb/files/2023-05/fred-2306.pdf
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Russel A. Kester
James, when you write that transgender is an umbrella term for everything from transsexuals to transvestites you are confirming my statement that the far-left is purposefully confusing terms. You might have misread my comment because I specifically said that we knew persons who were transsexuals as well as transvestites. The only term I said we didn't hear was transgender. That term was first used by a few medical people in 1965, but was not commonly used by others until the 1990s when trans activists started using it. That is when LGB turned into LGBT and many of us in the gay community thought it meant transsexual because they purposefully shortened the term to trans and NOT transgender. It was deceptive. The T doesn't belong with the LGB. They are completely different issues. So, no we did not have the term transgender when I came out in the 70's.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Another fine example of how out of touch and mostly irrelevant the pope and the catholic church remain. Nothing in this article (except some of the comments against this decision and declaration) are based on anything empirical or useful in the modern world. What a disappointment.
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Russel A. Kester
Klaire, I'm sure it will come as no surprise to you that I disagree with you completely. The Pope and the Catholic Church are speaking of things spiritual which have moral implications in the physical world.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Russell, we can debate the legitimacy of all things 'spiritual' all day long. One thing that is not debatable is that morality is NOT the purview of spirituality or religion. Empirically, morality is a philosophy unto itself.
If you need the fear of the retribution of a god figure in order to act a certain way, that's not morality, that's simply just fear.
If you need an organized religion to tell you that adults (mostly male) shouldn't sexually and emotionally abuse children (mostly boys) but then they do, that sort of hypocrisy violates more than a few of your stated goals for moral behavior.
There are hundreds, if not thousands more examples of how religion and spirituality does NOT define morality. Rather, those examples definitively describe many religions as immoral.
True morality is found in one's ability to describe behavior that contributes to the collective advancement of of the human species. "Thou shalt not kill" is not a moral statement. It's way too simplistic to be a descriptive of a point of morality. "I don't murder my neighbor because doing so will cause many of the factors that bind a society to degrade or collapse and could be disastrous to my personal freedom" is a much more indicative statement of a moral person and has no basis in religion or spirituality.
The hypocrisy of modern interpretations of religions (especially Christianity in the United States) is such a counter argument to the morality of those religions that it seems nearly impossible to understand how people can support such obvious mental traps. Of course, we do know why that is; it's due to the repetitive cycle of fear and lack of legitimate education enforced in successive generations. I'm not saying your uneducated, I'm saying that you've been channeled into an ineffective and illegitimate set of educational ideas that reinforce an inappropriate fear cycle.
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Russel A. Kester
Klaire, morality deals with principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior which is what religion and spirituality do. It's difficult to write a short response when your comment included so many issues. They seem to boil down to you just don't like Christianity and seem to think that anyone who does received a poor education. That's simply not true. Christianity is about love and the worth of individuals. It's about our human need to search out and find God. It seems the Pope thinks that current gender ideologies imperil ones ability to successfully be themselves as God intended them to be. No fear mongering, no hypocrisy. If I've understood the Pope's position correctly, then I think he's right.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Russel, in you're first sentence, you got everything correct (in it's simplest form) right up to the last 7 words. No, religion's purpose is NOT to define morality. In any classical (mythology) religion, it's purpose is control. Many have conflated that to mean "to establish moral behavior" but that is not functionally correct.
If you don't want to address each of my legitimate issues, it seems you don't really want to confront the reality of each of those points! You can say that "Christianity is about love and the worth of individuals" but in reality, the actions of three quarters of evangelical Christians is to exercise hypocrisy in their treatment of others (exclusion vs inclusion). Hypocrisy has become the functional cornerstone of the Christian 'faith'. Actions speak much louder than words.
The bottom line is that you, in fact, understood the pope's position correctly and he is wrong. Until you are able to correct for those major failings of the current interpretations of the religion you attach yourself to and grasp the empirically constructed conclusions of the reasons for those failures, I see your position as wrong as well.
Finally, I'd like to point out that 'faith' and 'belief' require NO actual empirical evidence at all. The point of both words literally means one can believe or have faith in anything. Even Martin Luther knew this when he presented his letter on 'Faith, Alone".
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Russel A. Kester
Klaire, thank you for your thoughtful response. I disagree with you as to religions role in relation to morality. Over and over the Christian Bible refers to righteousness which is defined as the quality of being morally right or justifiable. However, I do understand your taking issue with how organized religions have misused their power and prestige as instruments of control and subjugation. It is a real concern against which we must be ever vigilant. As for not responding to each item, it makes the posts excessively long. And I'm trying to focus on a single idea with a clear and succinct exchange of ideas. Though I might have failed here.
Klaire I always enjoy our stimulated conversations.
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James Riggle-Johnson
People say that God doesn’t make mistakes, but they are all around us every day. Explain why there are children born with both sex organs in need of surgery to choose one or the other. Explain why children are born with defective hearts that must be corrected for them to live. I don’t believe that the 1% of the population being transgender is as dire as War, Poverty, and Famine. I also noticed that priest pedophilia didn’t make the list. It appears that the Pope is only tolerant of the LGB part of the equation. The true danger to society are the far-right conservatives and the far-left liberals not finding ways to work together.
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Gwendolyn Lord
Once again, I feel called to respond to this post. People have been born for centuries in conflict over their birth assigned gender, VS. the sexual orientation that they feel is theirs. I have no issue with anyone's desire to embrace the gender they truly are. As long as the person is living life mindfully, peacefully, and lovingly. ( I have always had friends who were gay, Trans, etc.)
Gwendolyn
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
SOMEBODY has to defy your ugly false god!
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Eberhard Bruner
God made us male and female. It is not for us to desecrate His design, especially when it comes to human lives.
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RAYMOND BENITEZ
There are some key Bible verses about homosexuality to understand the biblical view of gay relations. The most commonly quoted Bible verses are Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13, which state that it is an abomination for a man to lie with another man as he would with a woman.
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RAYMOND BENITEZ
Leviticus 20:13 ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
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John Condron
... said the men wearing dresses!
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Russel A. Kester
Priests do not wear dresses. The traditional apparel worn by priests includes albs and a sleeveless outer vestment called a chasuble, or a cassock. Puerile comments calling albs, cassocks, kilts, thawbs, thobes, dishdashas or robes dresses might be perceived as offensive by those who wear them as part of their charished traditions.
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Man of God
In this I agree with the Pope. I am not a Catholic. There is not much I can agree with the Catholic church about. My God (The Father, Sun, Holy Spirit), only speaks the truth. Jesus never established a church or a religion. He came to fullfill his Father's wished. The Father (God), established his relgion through the covenant he made with Abramham, Issac, and Jacob. God, gave Jacob a new name - Israel. God turned his back on Israel after the leaders convinved the people to vote to give Jesus up for the life of a murder. A few years Roman destroyed Israel, and march all that was left to their territories to be divided amongst their local govenment. One of the Roman laws was that no Israel man could have sex with an Israel woman. They were to be worked to death. Israel woman to be nothing but sex slaves until death. That is how Israel became Jews. The Father is Holy, can not stand unholiness. The Father demands that we be Holy. Men have failed in that. The Father sent his son to bled for man in order to save man from total destruction. Because of Jesus success in not turning against Our Father, and dying as an innocent man. God give Jesus the throne of Judgement. Jesus has always been the Lord God. It was the Lord God that breathed the breath of life into the form (man) that God had created from the soil of this Earth. Roman's established the Roman Catholic Church. Our God had nothing to do with that. The Catholic's know of Jesus, but established a gimmick to trick people who want to save their soul that they had to pray and kiss their Pope to receive the Blessing of the Lord Jesus. All other tells are just lies and in do time Jesus will return, not as the Lamb, he will be the Judge.
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
The vast majority of what you have written here is based on fiction so how does that really relate to the real world?
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Lionheart
Thank you for telling us what you like to believe is true, even though there is no demonstrable evidence any of it is real, which is very similar to all other religions in earth, all proclaiming their religion is the right one, but like yours, they have no demonstrable evidence of its truthfulness.
Anyway, nice fictional stories, even though some of them are quite horrific from a very brutal unloving god that likes to pretend it’s very loving. Not really for children’s eyes, or ears.
🦁❤️
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John Ash McCormick
Since you can prove anything, literally ANYTHING just from the K.J. Bible I can only imagine what a Pope browsing through the secret Vatigan Library could prove. I would feel it was a terrible move but the Vatican is known for making terrible choices and then foisting them off on as much of humanity they can coerce. Being first of all a scientist I always remember how long it took to admit Galileo was correct and that was really obvious. I have had close L friends and very close G friends, almost certainly some B friends, no trans gender friends, but I certainly would treat them as just what they are - more humans like all of us.
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Stewart Newall
Yes it does big time hope they like a warm place
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Nicholas J Page
Let's concentrate on the more important things in life Wars Poverty and famine I don't acknowledge all these gender issues and gender swap in fact it is a waste of time.This has only recently come about.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
I don't care what the Pope says, just so long as he doesn't try to force us all to live by his diktats.
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Parson Golden
Interesting, does homosexual pedophilia committed by clergy and those in positions of authority rank above or below gender transitioning on that list?
The Pope has little room to condemn others based purely on his personal interpretation of proper sexual orientation. The human rights track record of the church is abysmal on this subject.
The church is attempting to take eyes off of its own multitude of crimes against humanity to create “threats” that do not exist. And that is an old playbook that those of us with critical thinking skills easily see through.
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Mountainsage
God and the universe create perfection, man does not.
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Val Jester
What does that mean?
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
For those claiming there are only TWO genders and that being LGBTQIA+ is "unnatural", "evil", that kids are being "forced to be it", etc. WRONG.
Genetically speaking, there are over 50 human gender variants, though outwardly, a person's gender can be born to show one of four physical appearances.
1) Born appearing to be male.
2) Born appearing to be female.
3) Born hermaphroditic, i.e. showing both gender traits.
4) Born genderless, showing no gender traits.
Now, that being said, it's not unusual for the PARENTS to choose their children's gender if they are born hermaphrodite or genderless. However, what the parents choose may NOT be what the gender of the child actually is. Nor does their outward appearance always show their true gender as well.
Allow me to explain.
You see, genetically speaking, as I stated earlier, there are multiple human genders, and there are many, many MORE gender variants. You can appear to be female by birth, and yet, genetically, be male. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows that you are actually "wired" to be male, as it were.
You can appear to be male, by birth, and yet, genetically, be female. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows you are actually "wired" to be female.
So, despite what some individuals may espouse and claim, there are FAR more than two human genders. Hell, even by birth, you can physically be one of four outward appearances. And it is, I assure you, all completely natural. There is no "god" factor with this, or a "devil" factor, or anything supernatural involved. For those who believe in such a thing.
It all comes down to how your DNA came together before you were ever born. So for those saying individuals who are LGBTQ+ are "unnatural", and those disparaging Trans individuals as "refusing their birth-right", you're wrong. It's completely natural. And, in fact, an individual transitioning to the other gender may, in fact, be simply gaining the physical appearance they were meant to have all along.
https://genetic.org/variations/
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Theresa C. Marquess
It is certain that you will not agree with me on this subject, however, for once it is my opinion that the Pope is right. God created two body styles, a man's and a woman's. I am well acquainted with several individuals who have struggled in those bodies with want to be the opposite of which they were born. My heart goes out to them. People are born with choices, but to destroy what is beautiful and comes to each from the time of conception is a choice from which there is no going back. Before making such a choice as to change one's sex each individual must examine his or her self as they approach that point of no return. Regret has to be a very difficult thing to live with. God love them all...
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Rev. Jonathan Peebles
And just when I thought there was hope for some Christians reality shows me otherwise. Im not surprised at all sadly. They just dont want to admit God makes mistakes as if the bible doesnt prove that already.
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Anisahoni
I have a dear Italian friend who lives in northern Italy and spends significant time in Rome due to her profession as an art curator, collector and dealer. It is no secret that on weekends, the clergy in the Vatican take off their "uniforms" as she calls them to attend nightclubs where they pay for sex with underage boys and young men. Apparently, the present pope and previous popes are fully aware of these facts and have said nothing and do nothing. This is known by the population in Rome as well. In addition, less than 1/4 of the art inside the Vatican could feed most of Europe as it is outrageously valuable. The Roman Catholic Church of Rome is corrupt and pretty disgusting, considering not only it's history but it's present papal rules. We were both raised RC and attended both religous education until high school graduation. The popes, cardinals and bishops are hypocrites. No one should trust or give any creedance to what they say.
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Dorothy Hawkins
"Gender Identity" is a Mixed Bag Variations on a Theme
To me, it seems the problem might be the words we speak about this: basic terminology and how similarly related words are misconstrued.
A person can be born with male or female genitalia, a mixture of both. That's "GENDER". One's reproductive equipment list, if you will pardon keeping with the words we use to describe this issue of "Gender Identity".
One's SEXUAL attractions, on the other hand, can be in line with their gender or differ from it, owing to the neural wiring mechanisms...our internal/emotional equipment list, if you will.
We cannot fathom the Creator's reasoning on this, but many species other than ourselves display these same variations. Variations on a theme. That seems to be the word I'm looking for. "We are all children of the same universe"
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Minister for the Kingdom
To be clear on the LGBTQ+. The God of all sent destruction on Sodom and Gamora for a very clear message. Our God and Lord Jesus Christ wish that all would be saved. But like then and now there are those who wish to disobey: and our Lord and God wish all to follow his statutes. The greatest commandment is Love. Yes, they wish that we love all who would do his work. Let us not forget his teaching of Sodom. Remember my brothers and sisters. When we are Born; for our father made us while we were in the womb. And I believe in him. God does not make any mistakes, never! Let's return to the true word of God in the bible. Search out the scriptures. Find the truth. Have faith in our God and Savior! I love you all.
Minister for the Kingdom R. Krebbs
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Lionheart
So, if you want to return to the true word of God, does that include Slavery, and stoning people to death, being as that’s what he condoned?
🦁❤️
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John Ash McCormick
Lionheart, I agree but it is even more complicated. Just a quick reality check wikipedia "As of February 2024, there are over 3,030 versions of the Bible in more than 2,011 languages available online. The Bible has been translated into 736 languages in total, with the New Testament translated into 1,658 additional languages, and smaller portions translated into 1,264 other languages."
Which was the "true" word? Caught me by surprise I thought there were only about 10 percent that many.
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John Ash McCormick
So, do you mow the lawn on Sunday, preach on Sunday, wear blended cloth clothing? I, of course, refer to Leviticus which is certainly part of the Bible I read.
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
To be blatantly honest, Our LGBTQIA brothers and sisters should just avoid biblical involvement all together. Its NOT worth the drama with so many against the community and so many hoops to jump through just to be accepted. The community should partake in Pagan traditions that always welcome them and 100% support them than the drama and hate they receive from a system that is pushed to say homosexuality is an abomination.
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Shelby
That's pretty rich coming from the largest group of accused child abusers and sexual predators ever to cluster in one institution.
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Shelby
That's pretty wild coming from the largest group of accused child abusers and sexual predators ever to be assembled in one institution.
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Steven Ferrell
I have not agreed with this Pope in many things, but this one I agree. It is wrong to do this stuff to a child.
My one grandchild who was born a girl was in a school that supposedly was 23% trans, so at 13 decided she was trans and a boy.
My daughter and SIL got on board because that is what a shrink told them to do. They went into debt starting the child on hormones to be male, having breasts removed at 16, having name changed to a boys name.
Now the child is 22, met a young man and fallen head over heels for him. Now is back to dressing like a girl, wearing hair like a girl and contemplating having implants put in to have breasts again. She now tells me she should not have done all that to herself, but is worried she will make her mother angry because her mom had been such a huge cheerleader for her being a boy.
I never supported the whole trans thing, would not refer to her as him or he, used a nickname rather than the boys name. Now the child understands why I said it was a mistake to do all that stuff to a minor. Why they should wait till the kid was adult age to make those life changing decisions. Now is asking me how to tell mom she blames her for getting all those changes done to her.
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Steven Ferrell
I have not agreed with this Pope in many things, but this one I agree. It is wrong to do this stuff to a child.
My one grandchild who was born a girl was in a school that supposedly was 23% trans, so at 13 decided she was trans and a boy.
My daughter and SIL got on board because that is what a shrink told them to do. They went into debt starting the child on hormones to be male, having breasts removed at 16, having name changed to a boys name.
Now the child is 22, met a young man and fallen head over heels for him. Now is back to dressing like a girl, wearing hair like a girl and contemplating having implants put in to have breasts again. She now tells me she should not have done all that to herself, but is worried she will make her mother angry because her mom had been such a huge cheerleader for her being a boy.
I never supported the whole trans thing, would not refer to her as him or he, used a nickname rather than the boys name. Now the child understands why I said it was a mistake to do all that stuff to a minor. Why they should wait till the kid was adult age to make those life changing decisions. Now is asking me how to tell mom she blames her for getting all those changes done to her.
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Lion on the Beach
Not being Catholic, I'm always amazed at the non-Catholics who turn towards Roma and scream about some insignificant detail the Vatican has made concerning some in-house ruling. Sinead O' Connor may have passed but her followers are still wringing their hands in mortal agony and screaming in petulant, ridiculous fury.
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Donald G Magel
And priests sexually assaulting children is benefitting humanity I imagine. Rome lives in its own world; they feel secure in their own minds. WWJD?
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Rolando Couce
The Pope needs to stand against anything that is against God he wanted to be a Pope than do your job Pope this is your chance to make God look like god
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Patricia Schuster
Science has passed the Catholic church's views on the understanding of homosexuality. Too much testosterone in a developing fetus that is pegged as female, or too much estrogen in a potential male fetus, brings so much conflict in the body. We need to have compassion, not judgement on these people, who through no fault of their own, are different. Different, but a child of the living God, Universe, however the miracle of being is understood. I am a former Catholic, aware of such shenanigans in the church. The pope is only a human being with faults of his own. We need compassion, but not blind loyalty. That kind of thing was a Hitler mentality.
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Ari Joseph Bertine
I'm a little surprised, but not too much. There are hefty political considerations at play and one man can only be so brave before he chooses to bow out of a battle to protect his own hide. He has already pushed against many traditional sources for the Church's hatred fix, and he knows it. Transgender people are currently the most practical sacrificial goat to satisfy the demon of hate-lust; this will allow people to consider themselves virtuous while they satisfy their animal urge to crush and destroy that which they do not understand. It's a canny move to throw the weakest child to the wolves to distract them while the rest escape. Cold, but strategic.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Can someone please enlighten me on what "threat to humanity" actually means from a Catholic perspective? And if I remember correctly, included on his list of threats was surrogacy. I'm not sure if he included IVF or not, but it wouldn't surprise me. Is it a threat to the individual's humanity or the existence of humanity as a whole?
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Tabitha
As usual with the commenters. A bunch of people who do not belong to a group and have no idea what it means to belong to that group, arguing about that groups right to exist. Simply because you don't want to recognize it’s existance
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Kathryn Diane Taft
I don't think anyone on this page understands the first thing about God and you've all been brainwashed to believe your opinion matters or that you're right and need to feel good defending the alphabet people. The Catholic church is no different than anyone else and the LGBQT people aren't either, nor you or the Muslims. God is perfect! He doesn't make mistakes and He doesn't care about any of this bs. He doesn't care about sexual preferences or dogmatic practices, HE'S GOD! Catholics are jerks, LGBQT are jerks, and all of you are too. So am I.... GOD DOESN'T CARE ABOUT ANY OF IT. HE ONLY CARES ABOUT WHAT'S IN YOUR HE'ART AND IS PATIENTLY WAITING FOR YOU TO REALIZE WHAT THE WORD "UNCONDITIONAL" TRULY MEANS. CAN YOU GRASP THE MEANING OF "FREE WILL"? DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORD "PERFECT"? I don't think so because if you did you wouldn't have anything to say about any of this. You would already know the truth and therefore wouldn't care what anyone says about anything BECAUSE GOD DOESN'T MAKE MISTAKES AND HE GAVE US ALL FREE WILL. I hope you all come to know Him like I do, and soon, because you're all missing what you should be doing and saying and thinking.....
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RAYMOND BENITEZ
You are incorrect. To know God is to read and understand the laws of the Bible. READ THE BIBLE.
The Bible says in Leviticus 18:22-24 ESV You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion. “Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean. Jude 1:5-8 5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
For those claiming there are only TWO genders and that being LGBTQIA+ is "unnatural", "evil", that kids are being "forced to be it", etc. WRONG.
Genetically speaking, there are over 50 human gender variants, though outwardly, a person's gender can be born to show one of four physical appearances.
1) Born appearing to be male.
2) Born appearing to be female.
3) Born hermaphroditic, i.e. showing both gender traits.
4) Born genderless, showing no gender traits.
Now, that being said, it's not unusual for the PARENTS to choose their children's gender if they are born hermaphrodite or genderless. However, what the parents choose may NOT be what the gender of the child actually is. Nor does their outward appearance always show their true gender as well.
Allow me to explain.
You see, genetically speaking, as I stated earlier, there are multiple human genders, and there are many, many MORE gender variants. You can appear to be female by birth, and yet, genetically, be male. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows that you are actually "wired" to be male, as it were.
You can appear to be male, by birth, and yet, genetically, be female. Internally, at the genetic level, your DNA shows you are actually "wired" to be female.
So, despite what some individuals may espouse and claim, there are FAR more than two human genders. Hell, even by birth, you can physically be one of four outward appearances. And it is, I assure you, all completely natural. There is no "god" factor with this, or a "devil" factor, or anything supernatural involved. For those who believe in such a thing.
It all comes down to how your DNA came together before you were ever born. So for those saying individuals who are LGBTQ+ are "unnatural", and those disparaging Trans individuals as "refusing their birth-right", you're wrong. It's completely natural. And, in fact, an individual transitioning to the other gender may, in fact, be simply gaining the physical appearance they were meant to have all along.
https://genetic.org/variations/
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Zekester
I don't feel the whole gender issue is a religious question. It's a mental health question. Clearly a lot of people are very confused about what genders are, and are trying to pretend they're something they're not. They need psychiatric help not religious mumbojumbo.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
"I think a bunch of power-hungry misogynists pretending to be virgins who systemically covered up thousands of child rapes maybe shouldn’t be making the rules about morality and human dignity."
This 100%.
The church needs to be more Christ like, feed the hungry, help the homeless, defrock pedophile priests and speak out against Trump.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
When is the rapture? I can't wait till the Christians get called home.
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RAYMOND BENITEZ
Christians must always start with the Bible in order to hear God’s Word on any subject. His commands are not optional, and he states clearly, “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination” (Leviticus 18:22).
Leviticus 18:22-24 E You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion. “Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean.
"Is gender ideology and transgender surgery really a threat to humanity on par with war, poverty, and famine?" Ridiculous, especiallty from a group of fanatics who waged war agains Muslims in the Crusades and discouraged people from using birth control thereby causing misery, poverty, and famine by overpopulating the poorest regions.
Vacate the Vatican. What they think I take the opposite direction every time.
Old beliefs die hard, a church that keeps two thousand year old rituals alive is not about to change much. By listing war, poverty and famine as worse threats you admit that gender bending and surgery belong on the list as a legitimate threat. I personally don't see how encouraging anyone to hate the body they were born with is mentally healthy. Taking an unstable person and telling them changing gender will cure all their problems is no different than the promises the church makes with promise of heaven.
If you were replying to me then either you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. By saying I would treat a transgender person as a human I simply indicated that I treat any person as just another human, no better, worse, or different from myself or you. I might make a major exception for an official of a religion which treats anyone not part of their church as less than human. I would never ask anyone if they were transgender or take any notice if I were told they were. We are all part of the same universe or multi universe as modern physics tells us. (yes, I am a trained theoretical physicist.)
We aren't a Church. We ARE THE CHURCH. We were founded unother then by Christ Himself. Other men came on to defy that belief centuries later. Look whete it got them. Over 2500 different denominations, some divided angst themselves over political ideology. And Heavrn is more then a promise. It's the reality. I love uou athiests attacking the very thing you believebin but don't realize it. A real athiest wouldn't waste the time of day trying to convince others God doesn't exist. It's a losing battle because the war you're waging is already showing signs of losing as prophesied. Our practice is more then ritual. It's commanded by God Himself. T o deny any of that is defying the whole existence of all of humanity.
Sure, Jan. 🤣🤣🤣
Gender surgery.is a threat to humanity along the same issues as war, poverty, and disease. Do you see victims of these atrocities proclaiming gender ideology. Heck no. They're struggling just to survive. Gender ideology is being proclaimed in countries financially able to pay for the sex changes. It's an elitist concept. And definitely not equal. Do you think the elites are going to pay for hundreds in the other human atrocities. Because war, famine, and disease are human man made atrocities. They are plagues that follow each other. And when you negate what nature intended you are going against nature and Nature's God which he intended. You are what you are conceived and born as. It's already determined by DNA which God created.
Actually, Keith, there are trans men and women in poor countries and in extremely repressive countries. They just don't have the money or access to appropriate medical care or in the case of authoritarian countries must hide their identities. There are underground clubs around the world in such places where they can dress and meet like individuals for a few hours and feel like a real person. Yes, we are privileged in the US, UK, and other OCED countries where these humans can get the medical treatment they deserve. If the church has a problem with people correcting their gender dysphoria, that's an issue they should work out amongst themselves. What's wrong with sending a message that says, "while this doesn't agree with our bronze age teachings, we still love and respect you and welcome you to worship our god with us"?