A growing number of religious groups are in support of gay marriage.
The Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) has released a study which found that 61% of Americans now support same-sex marriage more than double those who oppose it. Perhaps most striking, however, were the responses from people of faith. Steadfast opponents of marriage equality for years, faith groups are coming around at a surprising clip. Well, most of them anyway.
A whopping 97% of Unitarians and 77% of Jews now believe all marriages are equal before the law. Even more surprising is the increasing support amongst more traditionally conservative religious groups. Nearly two-thirds of Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and white mainline Protestants now say they're in favor of gay marriage.
The Resistance
However, white evangelicals and Mormons remain two notable exceptions to this trend. 58% of white evangelicals and 53% of Mormons remain staunchly opposed to letting gay people marry. Many simply cannot reconcile their religious teachings with homosexual relationships.
Gay couples are currently barred from the LDS church, and members who violate the church's ban on homosexual relationships can face discipline. Those who come out as gay are encouraged to "reform" and enter into heterosexual marriages though (unsurprisingly) such relationships are prone to failure.
In areas of the U.S. where evangelical faith has a strong grip on society, some county clerks still refuse to provide marriage licenses to gay couples a direct violation of the Supreme Court's 2015 ruling.
Winds of Change
However, as the graph above shows, even these groups are trending toward majority support. It may just take a bit longer for them to get there, explains the PRRI report. The research indicates that the next generation of LDS members and evangelicals will play a major role in this paradigm shift. As they grow into leadership roles within the church, this much more progressive generation of young people will likely push the dial toward acceptance.
"The God the Mormon Church worships has always been way behind the 8-ball. Expect more from your church than hate, people!" said one LDS follower who commented on a Salt Lake Tribune article about the study. "Kids are smart enough to know that the older generation's homophobia is cruel and hateful and there's no point to it," wrote another.
The stats seem to back this up. Amongst evangelicals, for example, twice as many young adults now favor same-sex marriage (53%) compared to those over 65 years of age (25%). More than half of Mormon millennials now support same sex marriage.
Freedom to Discriminate Up for Debate
In another sign that attitudes are changing, the study also found that six in ten Americans oppose the idea of businesses refusing to serve LGBT couples on purely religious grounds. The Supreme Court is currently determining whether a Colorado baker was legally entitled to refuse his services to a gay couple because their relationship violated his religious beliefs.
Mormons and evangelicals are once again outliers, with 53% insisting business owners should have the right to act in accordance with their faith and deny LGBT customers.
Impact on America
It's now been almost three years since gay marriage was legalized nationwide. Despite dire warnings from religious groups, the institution of marriage has shown no signs of crumbling to the ground. In fact, you could argue it's stronger than ever. Straight couples are still getting married at the same rate, and gay couples can finally enjoy all the benefits of entering a legal union.
It'd be difficult to find any tangible examples of social decay resulting from the change which flies in the face of all the fearmongering we heard leading up to the Supreme Court decision. Vulnerable children aren't turning gay by the droves. No gay orgies have been reported in the streets (well, that we know of). Straight marriages are just as meaningful as they've always been.
The PRRI report indicates that religious groups are slowly coming to this realization. The older generation of backwards thinkers are being replaced with younger, more compassionate generations who're increasingly willing to accept people as they are not as some ancient book decrees they ought to be.
225 comments
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James
All humans are born w/ gender assignment. The 2nd brain of a human hold a lot of weight when it comes to any conflict to the assignment of gender. We should be spiritual beings in the Christ-hood, as a life style. Not taught a box'ed religion. BTW, Marriage \in the eyes of a government is just a "contract". For the government to say "yes / no" to issuing ANY contract to ANY given sector of any stereotypical adult class of ppl is denying equal rights. Denying a "contract" to whites / blacks, gays / straight is discrimination. Government has no right to state what these ppl can do under this contract. Even if bum-butter / ring of fire is immoral in the eyes of god (love). I'm sure we all have our SINs to work on. as we bring attention to others ppls sine to detract from our own. Get a life ppl, work on your own sins more than others.
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John Owens
I will not say absolutely wrong here, but I will say absolutely not a proven fact. You can read the analyses of the articles above rather than quoting falsehoods. It is not judging in the sense of condemning someone. it is just fact.
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John Owens
It is truly amazing how many people actually believe there can ever be a genetic component to sexual tastes, and think there is abundant research to support that idea. There IS abundant research, performed in desperate hope to find a link, but not any that proves the connection. It is also amazing that people find the truth to be unpleasant, and refer to those who speak it as bigoted and ignorant, as though saying that somehow means those who say it are NOT bigoted and ignorant.
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Austin
I wish I was surprised at the ignorance and bigotry displayed in these comments, but sadly, I'm not. I now regret that I ever became involved with the ULC.
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James
Austin... Get involved with ULC? This is a public forum. The views, opinions & words expressed here have minimal to no bearing on the ULC as a whole. If the biblical teaching of the many "religions" were held & taught true to the core in a utopia sense of spirituality, the world would be a way better place. Unfortunately it's not. Sticking w/ any given assembly is done because ones believes in the depths of what it stand for. Words of its member (and others that get in) are all ego (some more, some less) based. many express their phaneron w/ dignity, others express it w/ wisdom. Some express ego & have lost the path.
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Professor
It always seems to be the Christian ready and willing to pull the spec out of someones eye. They have given the Holy institution of Marriage to Caesar (the government) and now they complain about people who want equal rights. They ignore Jesus words of "to the least of these" and blindly support war around the world. Who is the greater sinner?
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Christian
Natural Selection doen't care what you like - Mother Nature made All Things.
The future belongs to the people with the most fertile great great great great great grand children.
Thinking ahead 7 generations allows you to make decisions that are best for your great great great great great grand children.
If Extinction is of no concern to you. then by all means go with God.
We shall remember you for your unique spirit & free loving souls. Peace.
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Gary Hynous
Interesting comments. I wonder how all 4,200 religions in the world would respond to this. Any comments?
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bakoa
Jennifer, John Owens is a troll. This is him receiving some education. He is gobbling up everything I am laying out an will go spew it on another site as his. If this is how I can educate a fellow man the so be it
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John Owens
Ben, calling people troll is about as uneducated as wearing diapers. I'm about to start skinning you.
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John Owens
Is the skinning starting to smart yet, Ben?
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John Owens
no replies.
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iamgodu2
John Owens, You have Been Weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting (by Ben) and anyone reading this thread.
We no longer need to respond to you. Go in peace) You are probably the most stupid and least intelligent person on this forum. May the Lord Bless your Soul for that
It is my understanding that declaring someone is wrong as in gay is wrong is like saying God is wrong in the same way that blaming a child for poor manners is no different than blaming the parent. So if God made me and I am gay, then God by all means gave me the biological and genetic tools to be Gay. And by condemning me for being Gay you are blaspheming against your God. This is a reality that ignorance cannot see.
The Lord God has placed the veil of ignorance before your eyes for a greater purpose in the same way he did to those that Crucified Jesus and We are thankful for your ignorance.
God is infinite and therefore it is impossible for you to understand God because of the size of who you are (John Owens that includes you) as a person in time and space. You are not even a spec, not even an atom size, not even a Kaon size, not even a photon size in perspective to God's depth of wisdom so stop trying to pretend you understand or can interpret God. The more you try, the dumber you sound.
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John Owens
iamgodu2, you are a pathetic liar. You lied and said I condemned you. Please copy and paste where I have condemned you. You cannot. That makes YOU the stupid one, YOU the ignorant one, YOU the one weighed and found wanting. I have so far SKINNED Ben and if you could think beyond your obsession with penises you would see that.
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John Owens
I examined the bullshit Ben posted, (which he obviously did NOT) and my point is made. There is no reputable research that shows a genetic component to homosexuality. Period.
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bakoa
Gary, I posted info for you, great hardcore research proving my points but the site moderators refuse to post it. So we are wasting our time on this site. If your point does not feed into the moderators agenda it’s discarded. This site has an agenda and it’s not yours or mine. For that reason I will no longer post on here
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John Owens
Sure you did, Ben.. right...Liar
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bakoa
You ate just flat out stroking my ego when you call me a liar John
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bakoa
Well, my posts now say awaiting moderation. Lets see who is the fool if they do post them. John
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bakoa
Dont be this way John, you are a very Smart Man about to prove to the world with your response to my posts that Homosexuality is not natural
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bakoa
John Owens, I am sure you are smarter than all this peer reviewed material and hardcore research. This is just a small sample list of what is out there. There is plenty more enough to create an entire library solelty dedicated on hard proven facts to suoprt the genetic occurrence of homosexuality in nature and by nature. But thank you though for telling us that all this research is bogus. You are Truly smart
Bailey, J. M. and Pillard, R. C. (1991). A genetic study of male sexual orientation.Arch. Gen. Psychiat. 48:1089–1096. Bailey, J. M. and Benishay, D. (1993). Familial aggregation of female orientation.Am. J. Psychiat. 150:272–277. Bailey, J. M., Willerman, L., and Park, C. (1991). A test of the maternal stress theory of human male homosexuality.Arch. Sex. Behav. 20:277–293. Bailey, J. M., Pillard, R. C., Neale, M. C., and Agyei, Y. (1993). Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women.Arch. Gen. Psychiat. 50:217–223. Bell, A. P. and Weinberg, M. S. (1969).A Study of Socialization (study questionnaire), Kinsey Institute, Bloomington, IN. Bell, A. P., Weinberg, M. S., and Hammersmith, S. K. (1981a).Sexual Preference: Its Development in Men and Women, Indiana University Press, Bloomington. Bell, A. P., Weinberg, M. S., and Hammersmith, S. K. (1981b).Sexual Preference: Statistical Appendix, Indiana University Press, Bloomington. Bieber, I., Dain, H. J., Dince, P. R., Drellich, M. G., Grand, H. G., Gundlach, R. H., Kremer, M. W., Rifkin. A. H., Wilbur C. B., and Bieber, T. B. (1962).Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study, Basic Books, New York. Dank, B. (1971). Coming out in the gay world.Psychiatry 34:180–197. Dörner, G. (1976).Hormones and Brain Differentiation. Elsevier, Amsterdam. Dörner, G., Poppe, I., Stahl, F., Kölzsch, J., and Uebelhack, R. (1991). Gene-and environment-dependent neuroendocrine etiogenesis of homosexuality and transsexualism.Exp. Clin. Endocrinol. 98:141–150. Ellis, L., and Ames, M. A. (1987). Neurohormonal functioning and sexual orientation: A theory of homosexualityheterosexuality.Psychol. Bull. 101:233–258. Gebhard, P. (1972). Incidence of overt homosexuality in the United States and western Europe. In Livingood, J. M. (ed.)National Institute of Mental Health Task Force on Homosexuality: Final Report and Background Papers, DHEW Publication No. HSM 72-9116, U. S. Government Printing Office, Washington, DC, pp. 22–29. Harry, J., and DeVall, W. (1978).The Social Organization of Gay Males, Prager, New York. King, M. and McDonald, E. (1992). Homosexuals who are twins: A study of 46 probands.Br. J. Psychiat. 160:407–409. Meyer-Bahlburg, H. (1984). Psychoendocrine research on sexual orientation. Current status and future options. In De Vries, G. J. De Bruin, J. P. C., Uylings, H. M. B., and Corner, M. A. (eds.),Progress in Brain Research, Vol. 61, Elsevier, Amsterdam, pp. 375–398. Pillard, R. C. (1990). The Kinsey Scale: Is it familial? In McWhirter, D. P., Sanders S. A., and Reinisch, J. M. (eds.),Homosexuality/Heterosexuality: Concepts of Sexual Orientation, Oxford University Press, Oxford. Pillard, R. C., and Weinrich, J. D. (1986). Evidence of familial nature of male homosexuality.Arch. Gen. Psychiat. 43:808–812. Pillard, R. C., and Weinrich, J. D. (1987). The periodic table model of the gender transpositions. I. A theory based on masculinization and defemininization of the brain.J. Sex Res. 23:425–454. Plomin, R., DeFries, J. C., and McClearn, G. E. (1990).Behavioral Genetics: A Primer, W. H. Freeman, New York. Pollak, E. I., and Sachs, B. D. (1975). Masculine sexual behavior and morphology: Paradoxical effects of perinatal androgen treatment in male and female rats.Behav. Biol. 13:401–411 Rice, J. (1982). Ascertainment bias for non-twin relatives in twin proband studies.Hum. Hered. 32:202–207. Saghir, M., and Robins, E. (1973).Male and Female Homosexuality, Williams & Wilkins, Baltimore. Van Den Aardeg, G. J. M. (1984). Parents of homosexuals: Not guilty?Am. J. Psychother. 38:180–189. Whitam, F. L., Diamond, M., and Martin, J. (1992). Homosexual orientation in twins: A report on 61 pairs and three triplet sets.Arch. Sex. Behav. (in press). Bene, E. (1965). On the genesis of male homosexuality: An attempt at clarifying the role of the parents.Brit. J. Psychiat. 111: 803–813. Bieber, I.,et al. (1962).Homosexuality: A Psychonalytic Study. Basic Books, New York. Climent, C. E., Ervin, F. R., Rollins, A., Plutchik, R., and Batinelli, C. J. (1977). Epidemiological studies of female prisoners. IV. Homosexual behavior.J. Nerv. Ment. Dis. 164: 25–29. Cloninger, C. R., and Guze, S. B. (1970). Psychiatric illness and female criminality: The role of sociopathy and hysteria in the antisocial woman.Amer. J. Psychiat. 127: 303–311. Cloninger, C. R., and Guze, S. B. (1973). Psychiatric illnesses in the families of female criminals: A study of 288 first-degree relatives.Brit. J. Psychiat. 122: 697–703. Dank, B. M. (1971). Six homosexual siblings.Arch. Sex. Behav. 1: 193–204. Davison, K., Brierley, H., and Smith, C. (1971). a male monozygotic twinship discordant for homosexuality.Brit. J. Psychiat. 118: 675–682. Ellis, H. (1922).Studies in the Psychology of Sex. II. Sexual Inversion. F. A. Davis, Philadelphia. Evans, R. B. (1969). Childhood parental relationships of homosexual men.J. Consult. Clin. Psychol. 33: 129–135. Friedman, R. C., Wollesen, F., and Tendler, R. (1976). Psychological development and blood levels of sex steroids in male identical twins of divergent sexual orientation.J. Nerv. Ment. Dis. 163: 282–288. Gebhard. P. (1972). Incidence of overt homosexuality in the U.S. and Western Europe. In National Institute of Mental Health—Task Force,Homosexuality: Final Report and Background Paper, DHEW Publications No. (HMS) 72–9116. Green, R., and Stoller, R. J. (1971). Two monozygotic (identical) twin pairs discordant for gender identity.Arch. Sex. Behav. 1: 321–327. Guze, S. B., Wolfgram, E. D., McKinney, J. K., and Cantwell, D. P. (1967). Psychiatric illness in the families of convicted criminals: A study of 519 first-degree relatives.Dis. Nerv. Syst. 28: 651–659. Henry, G. W. (1941).Sex Variants: A Study of Homosexual Patterns. Paul B. Hoeber, New York. Heston, L. L., and Shields, J. (1968). Homosexuality in twins.Arch. Gen. Psychiat. 18: 149–160. Hoenig, J., and Duggan, E. (1974). Sexual and other abnormalities in the family of a transsexual.Psychiat. Clin. 7: 334–346. Holemon, R. E., and Winokur, G. (1965). Effeminate homosexuality: A disease of childhood.Amer. J. Orthopsychiat. 35: 48–56. Hutchinson, G. E. (1959). A speculative consideration of certain possible forms of sexual selection in man.Amer. Naturalist 93: 81–91. Kallmann, F. J. (1952). Comparative twin study on the genetic aspects of male homosexuality.J. Nerv. Ment. Dis. 115: 283–298. Kenyon, F. E. (1968). Studies in female homosexuality—IV & V.Brit. J. Psychiat. 114: 1337–1350. Kinsey, A. C., Pomeroy, W. B., and Martin, C. E. (1948).Sexual Behavior in the Human Male. Saunders, Philadelphia. Kinsey, A. C., Pomeroy, W. B., Martin, C. E., and Gebhard, P. (1953).Sexual Behavior in the Human Female. Saunders, Philadelphia. Kirsh, J. A. W., and Rodman, J. E. (1977). The natural history of homosexuality.Yale Scientific (Winter): 7–13. Klintworth, G. K. (1962). A pair of male monozygotic twins discordant for homosexuality.J. Nerv. Ment. Dis. 135: 113–125. Margolese, M. S., and Janiger, O. (1973). Androsterone/etiocholanolone ratios in male homosexuals.Brit. Med. J. 3: 207–210. Melnick, M., Myrianthopoulos, N. C., and Christian, J. C. (1978). The effects of chorion type on variation in I. Q. in the NCPP twin population.Amer. J. Human Genet. 30: 425–433. Mesnikoff, A. M., Rainer, J. D., Kolb, L. C., and Carr, A. C. (1963). Intrafamilial determinants of divergent sexual behavior in twins.Amer. J. Psychiat. 119: 732–738. Moran, P. A. (1972). Familial effects in schizophrenia and homosexuality.Aust. N. Z. J. Psychiat. 6: 116–119. Parker, N. (1964). Homosexuality in twins: A report on three discordant pairs.Brit. J. Psychiat. 110: 489–495. Perkins, M. W. (1973). Homosexuality in female monozygotic twins.Behav. Genet. 3: 387–388. Rainer, J. D., Mesnikoff, A., Kolb, L. C., and Carr, A. (1960). Homosexuality and heterosexuality in identical twins.Psychosom. Med. 22: 251–259. Saghir, M. T., and Robins, E. (1973).Male and Female Homosexuality Williams & Wilkins, Baltimore. Taylor, C. C. (1971). Marriages of twins to twins.Acta Genet. Med. Gemmellol. 20: 96–113. Taylor, M., and Abrams, R. (1973). Manic states. A genetic study of early and late onset affective disorders.Arch. Gen. Psychiat. 28: 656–658. Weinrich, J. D. (1976). Human reproductive strategy. I. Environmental predictability and reproductive strategy: Effects of social class and race. II. Homosexuality and nonreproduction: Some evolutionary models. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, Department of Biology, Harvard University. Williams, G. C. (1966).Adaptation and Natural Selection: A Critique of Some Current Evolutionary Thought. Princeton University Press, Princeton, N.J. Wilson, E. O. (1975).Sociobiology: The New Synthesis. Belknap Press, Cambridge. Winokur, G. (1978). Mania and depression: Family studies and genetics in relation to treatment. In Lipton, M. A., DiMascio, A., and Killam, K. F. (eds.),Psychopharmacology: A Generation of Progress Raven Press, New York. Zuger, B. (1976). Monozygotic twins discordant for homosexuality: Report of a pair and significance of the phenomenon.Compr. Psychiat. 17: 661–669. Zuger, B. (1978). A neglected source-book on homosexuality.Brit. J. Psychiat. 133: 87–88.
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John Owens
About time. Now of course, I will have to read a few of them. It may take a few days. I do work, you know, and study, and do yard work. I am certain most of these say nothing along the lines of what you are saying, but I will select a few of them and find the holes in YOUR interpretation of this. Now, a STUDY can be totally scientific, without learning anything. So far, no one has learned anything about a genetic predisposition to homosexuality. NO ONE. But I will look at a few.
Mar sin leat.
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iamgodu2
John Owens, you are a twerp. Ben is making you out to sound like a fool and you are playing right into him. I have read all your posts and from where I sit, you are really in need of education. Both Spiritually and formally. In the Name of God, John Owens stop making yourself out to be a greater idiot. We know you are at this point, stop making things worst. Ben has out smarted you on here, give it up while you still have your underwear on.
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John Owens
Jennifer, he is not making a fool of me. You only say that because you are as deceived as he is. Please butt out. He has not come up with anything yet, except named all these studies whose finding will disprove or fail to prove his thesis. It is obvious that you also allow your emotions to greatly hinder your ability to reason.
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John Owens
Jennifer, no comments on my reviews of Ben's overly lengthy list of supposed references? You see, just because YOU agree with someone doesn't make them correct.
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John Owens
Okay Ben. I researched your first reference and here it the result:
US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health
"A genetic study of male sexual orientation.
Bailey JM1, Pillard RC.
Author information
Abstract
Homosexual male probands with monozygotic cotwins, dizygotic cotwins, or adoptive brothers were recruited using homophile publications. Sexual orientation of relatives was assessed either by asking relatives directly, or when this was impossible, asking the probands. Of the relatives whose sexual orientation could be rated, 52% (29/56) of monozygotic cotwins, 22% (12/54) of dizygotic cotwins, and 11% (6/57) of adoptive brothers were homosexual. Heritabilities were substantial under a wide range of assumptions about the population base rate of homosexuality and ascertainment bias. However, the rate of homosexuality among nontwin biological siblings, as reported by probands, 9.2% (13/142), was significantly lower than would be predicted by a simple genetic hypothesis and other published reports. A proband's self-reported history of childhood gender non-conformity did not predict homosexuality in relatives in any of the three subsamples. Thus, childhood gender nonconformity does not appear to be an indicator of genetic loading for homosexuality. Cotwins from concordant monozygotic pairs were very similar for childhood gender nonconformity."
Please pay particular attention to the next to last sentence above. Conclusion of this study: No apparent relationship between genetics and homosexuality
That was your first reference. I will next do your last reference, and then randomly in between, but it takes time. Since YOU think YOU are educating ME, please pay attention.
Please read this, Jennifer.
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John Owens
I went ahead and did the second reference in your list, and it suggests that female homosexuality is familial (not genetic), and male homosexuality is much LESS familial. From the same source,
US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health
Familial aggregation of female sexual orientation.
Bailey JM1, Benishay DS.
Author information
Abstract
OBJECTIVE:
The purpose of this study was to determine whether female homosexuality is familial and whether it is cofamilial with male homosexuality.
METHOD:
Subjects included 84 homosexual and 79 heterosexual female probands recruited through newspaper advertisements. Probands were asked about their siblings' sexual orientations and were asked for permission to contact siblings to confirm their reports.
RESULTS:
The authors were able to contact 60% of eligible siblings, and the information they provided about their sexual orientations confirmed that probands' reports were highly accurate. Homosexual probands had a significantly higher proportion of homosexual sisters according to four criteria for rating siblings' sexual orientations. Homosexual probands also had a higher proportion of homosexual brothers; however, this difference was not significant.
CONCLUSIONS:
Female homosexuality appears to be familial. Further research is required to resolve the question of whether female and male homosexuality are cofamilial.
Conclusion: there appears a family relationship in female homosexuals and less so in males, and "FURTHER RESEARCH IS REQUIRED TO RESOLVE THE QUESTION..." Nothing at ALL is mentioned about anything GENETIC.
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John Owens
On this one you will say, "AHA! See?" I will say, totally inconclusive.
A pair of monozygotic twins discordant for homosexuality: sex-dimorphic behavior and penile volume responses.
McConaghy N, Blaszczynski A.
Abstract
In reports of identical twins discordant for homosexuality, the homosexual twins showed the effeminacy syndrome in childhood. This has been considered evidence that the homosexuality comes from the twin himself. The possibility that the heterosexual twin was denying homosexuality has never been excluded. A pair of identical male twins discordant for homosexuality are reported. They showed significant differences in their penile volume responses to moving pictures of male and female nudes indicative of sexual orientations consistent with their statements. The homosexual twin showed the effeminacy syndrome. Aspects of the syndrome can be induced in mammals by altering their hormonal environment during some critical period in their intrauterine development. Discordance for homosexuality in identical twins could be due to one's being exposed to a different hormonal level during such a critical period.
You see, there is no explanation of how one twin gets the hormone screw-up and the other doesn't. The suggestion here is just that-- a suggestion of a possibility. Not any evidence that would lead to a conclusion of any kind. The fact that they showed images to males already grown tells nothing except that the one claiming to be heterosexual WAS heterosexual and the one claiming to otherwise WAS otherwise.
Also, the first few statements are basically anecdotal and have nothing to do with science.
So, this reference means nothing either, with regards to any scientific proof. I'll do more next week.
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John Owens
Not done yet, Ben, but after examining three of your references, your score is 0, zip, zero, nada. I am not done yet, of course, but you must know-- naming Googled references doesn't count as a win. If it did, I'd just invent some and declare myself vindicated.
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John Owens
Just an incidental question, Ben-- Have actually read ANY of these sources or did you just copy them from a bibliography? I'm just asking because the third from the bottom, on Psychopharmacology seems way out of place here.
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John Owens
Winokur and Lipton's works are dealing with affective disorders and pharmacological treatment of them.
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John Owens
E.O. Wilson--Wilson nowhere actually said that more than 10% of human behavior was determined by genes. So, by his own interpretation, if he was totally correct in his ASSUMPTION, a person could be BORN no more than 10% homosexual. However, the following paragraph might discredit even that:
"With the publication of the 25th anniversary edition in 2000, the historians of biology Michael Yudell and Rob Desalle reviewed the nature-nurture controversy around the book...they called the new discipline pop psychology for people "who like telling just-so stories"."
[In science and philosophy, a just-so story is an unverifiable narrative explanation for a cultural practice, a biological trait, or behavior of humans or other animals. The pejorative[1] nature of the expression is an implicit criticism that reminds the hearer of the essentially fictional and unprovable nature of such an explanation. Such tales are common in folklore and mythology (where they are known as etiological myths—see etiology).]" (Explanation of just-so story from Wikipedia.)
Now, I can't read the whole book, of course, just because you saw it as a reference, but Yudell and Desalle are supposed to be very knowledgeable on the subject.
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John Owens
Ben, regarding the above reference:
Williams, G. C. (1966).Adaptation and Natural Selection: A Critique of Some Current Evolutionary Thought. Princeton University Press, Princeton, N.J.
Nowhere does this say anything about the existence of a homosexual gene or a genetic component to homosexuality. I'll ask again, have you read ANY of these? Okay. So far, your score is ZERO. JENNIFER! Are you paying attention?
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John Owens
Regarding
Bieber, I.,et al. (1962).Homosexuality: A Psychonalytic Study. Basic Books, New York.
If you bothered to read the TITLE, you would see it is PSYCHOANALYTIC. It has nothing to do with genes, genomes, or biology at ALL. Of course you didn't read any of it. You just pasted a page full of crap on here, thinking I wouldn't check it, WHICH IS WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE DONE before you started believing any of the crap you are spreading with no knowledge.
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John Owens
Now, who is the troll, Ben? I would say, the evidence suggests that YOU are, and perhaps Jennifer is a trollette.
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bakoa
John Owens, I showed you mine. Now you show me your hard core list of research that proves homosexuality is not a natural occurrence and thus an abomination
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Gary
here lately the main subject consumed about the gays and gay lifestyle and to me it seems that what is truly important is the eternal soul of each and every man ,women and child it seems we have forgotten the hungry the homeless and the sick Maybe i'm wrong but I don't see the compassion for our fellow man we are consumed about ourselves,and maybe I'm wrong but I choose to be straight and feel good in my own skin and if someone chooses to be homosexual that's there choice God gave each of us choices so make your choice LOVE OR HATE i for one choose love
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bakoa
The Great John Owens discredits all science about gays and lesbians as Fake Science. but he Great John Owens says "I postulated that there COULD be some chemical imbalance HERETOFORE UNDISCOVERED that could cause that but so far there is NO SCIENCE showing that people are born homosexual."
PURE TRUMPISM
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The Doctor
Ive actually bothered to link articles about the genetic sequence likely causing homosexuality in males, as well as the studies showing female relatives of male homosexuals have an apparently higher rate of fertility and rate of successful pregnancies. However the likes of Owen and other zealots chose to ignore them. So why bother. They wont read it even if you link it.
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John Owens
There is no real science along these lines. NONE. Never was. Never will be. Oh, well, if they looked for a homosexual gene, the actual search would be scientific. Since they didn't find it, though, all the rest is bullshit. So, science PROVES it's bullshit. Now, what kind of ZEALOT does that make YOU?
Actually I'm a little perturbed that you keep trying to lump in as a real thumper. I'm not, but you keep assigning beliefs and fanaticisms to me to which I have no claim.
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John Owens
PURE TRUMPISM? Now you are REALLY showing your true colors. Science has nothing to do with personalities. If you ever grow one, you will realize that.
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bakoa
TRUMPISM: The tendency to use fallacies as a substitute for logic. Donald Trump is notorious for this type of false logic. And so are you
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John Owens
In that case, you are spouting Trumpism.
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bakoa
So Gary, Basically, you are telling us that you rather we feed you our sources of scientific information than do your own research to refute ours? I see why your opinions are so limited because you took someone else's research as word. This is the problem with Biblical Hardliners.
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Gary
my comment was on the research where is it because when someone makes a statement I want proof leave me the information and I'll read it and it's got to be facts not what some thinks
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bakoa
So Gary, Basically, you are telling us that rather we feed you our sources of scientific information rather that do your own research to refute ours via your own research? I see why your opinions are so limited because you took somoen else's research as word. This is the problem with Biblical Hardliners.
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bakoa
John owens' you say that
"If you believe in evolution AT ALL, there is no way you can believe that people are BORN gay, UNLESS it is because the mother is subjected to some hormonal or chemical substance that causes it, WHICH MAY BE POSSIBLE, but is unproven, as is the elusive “homosexual gene.”
This is possibly the most dumb and incoherent statement about anything scientific I have ever read. It is poorly formulated as an argument and a Gross display of your ignorance in all matters scientific and or religious.
You see, society becomes a dangerous place to live when people like you believe in anything.
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John Owens
Ben, your last statement here is moronic and over the top. Nothing I have said or done makes anything dangerous to anyone. This shows you don't believe in real science, because if you did you would be more logical. Show me some kind of real science to back up ANYTHING you are saying, or please just stop trying to talk about science. You have made several comments about it but have not offered any articles or research (WHICH THERE IS NONE), but I am waiting.
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bakoa
With an expression such as “Moronic over the top” I rest my case. There is nothing I can show you or a link I can send you to that can shed light pass the layers of dogma youve been burried under let aline the mental capacity to read and understand what I would give you. If you want to learn copy and paste anything I wrote into your browser and the or better do a peer review article search with keywords from my posts. Hint hint. Work for a change
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John Owens
You are trying to hide your falsehood by accusing ME of being brainwashed. I submit that it is you who is an idiot and a liar. The only people who even SUGGEST what you are saying is true are not scientists, but apologists. If you had an article, you would post it, and then I would rip it to shreds with facts.
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bakoa
What? Are you that dumb? Do you think grown-ups fall for that? You are lazy and trying to get away from facing the abundant amount of information that is on the internet, that you might uncover if you actually did the research. Let me expose you for the lazy bum that you are. You want me to feed you that information. Like I said, your Pea Brain is catching up to you and it shows. Go be with Trump, you seem the type to believe in him
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John Owens
Ben, You are acting like a child. POST A FREAKING LOGICAL UNBIASED ARTICLE with peer reviews and all that crap you are claiming to have here. I promise you if it says anything LIKE what you are saying I can shoot a hole in it that would sink.
Babies aren't ANYTHING but sweet little needy things that are TAUGHT to be what they are. You have to be an emotional basket-case to WANT to believe your own crap. You are telling me that when a baby is BORN, it is pre-determined to be straight or homosexual or confused.
A new-born baby, lying in its mother's arms, sucking her boob, is already fantasizing about being whatever it is going to be. Can you see how ridiculous that is? Identical twins should always have the same preference, if that was so, because they have the same DNA. You have to jump through too many hoops of logic to believe that crap.
If you want to encourage little kids to become homosexuals, just say you want to do that. Don't try to make up all this phony crap to justify it. If it is right and natural, it doesn't need justifying. Just train those little boys and girls to be like you. No one will mind.
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bakoa
John Owens First and foremost, you have to understand that science is a path the works of God, yet another window into better praising God and quit possibly understanding science is a great was to worshiping God. To not embrace science will destroy your faith because the more you understand science, the better you will appreciate the depth of God’s Grandeur. Science will / can never wrap around the vast depth that is nature because like God, it is too deep, yet very simple. That said and at, the risk of turning this platform into a session about genetics variation, evolution and the persistence of aberrant genetic variances, let me tell you why these genes persist in a population. Maybe this will help you praise God better and see how ahead of the game a creator thinks well beyond your pea brain.
E Pluribus Unum, Out of Many One
1) A percentage of non-reproductive members of a biological population is vital to the survival of a specie. You take away such variation and a sustainable genetic population model falls apart. You can do 1,000,000 simulations of a human population without a Gay / Lesbian non-reproductive percentage and it will fail 1,000,000 times within a few generations.
In a way, the Gays are important for the very stability and existence of a human race. Take them out and you, my friend, would not be in existence.
By attempting to eradicate the Gays and Lesbians You may be ignorantly digging at the very wedge God put in place to hold the entire human population erect.
2) Look into nature to better understand yourselves. Every Sexual or asexually reproducing population has a non-reproductive population. There is a reason for that. For example There are Gay (non-reproductive) trees. There are Gay no-reproductive wolves, earth worms and ants and bees, fruit flies and cats and mice. Under certain conditions sexually reproductive organisms become hermaphroditic etc. just to name a few occurrences in nature
Go home, pray hard and thank God for the existence of Gays because they may be the reason your bigot butt exists in the first place.
E pluribus Unum.
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John Owens
Ben, I hate to get into a pissing contest with someone who thinks they are smart because they have to believe obvious lies in order to keep from hating themselves or others, but nothing you are saying has ANY BASIS IN FACT. Now, it is entirely possible, even LIKELY, that there are some phudniks (nudniks with PHDs) who actually HAVE espoused some of the swill you are attempting to parrot. That doesn't make it science, and sure doesn't make it even a valid theory. That totally pandering speculation has an impossible road ahead of it to even BECOME a theory. Just pointing that out for you, because THEORY is part of the scientific method, which totally precludes any possibility of what you are saying EVER becoming an accepted FACT or LAW of physics or nature. Read my post above-- babies just want a titty and some comfort. They don't want to kiss another person's genitals. They LEARN that from other humans as they grow. You want them to be taught to want to kiss their own gender's. Just admit that and forget the mythical science stuff you are espousing.
You see, you think I am hating or something, so you try to make me angry by insulting my intelligence. Anyone who is functionally literate and not heavily medicated can see that your little platform is based solely on emotion and bias, and very VERY lacking in fact and logic. I won't get into a pissing contest with an unarmed man.
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bakoa
John Owens. You would agree that in order to discredit people with Doctorates based on centuries of peer reviewed research one has to be highly intelligent the likes of Albert Einstein, am I correct?
If the above statement is true, then we can conclude that because you are discrediting Doctorates, that you are a highly intelligent person the likes of Albert Einstein, am I also Correct?
If the above statement is true then we should be honored to have this discussion with you. THANK YOU and thank you for indulging US people of Highly Low intelligence because I would assume, that this is taking much of your precious time. Thank you.
Now for the purpose of discussion and our enlightenment, John Owens, can you shed your knowledge on the occurrence of hermaphrodites in nature?
I am curious because I once had a dog who would only hump male dogs and I am sure there are many people on here that have had such pets with a misguided sense of copulation. Would you have something to say about that?
Growing up we had several Papaya trees in our back yard. SO I know first had that Papaya plants grow in three sexes: male, female, hermaphrodite.
The funny thing is that the hermaphrodites or non fruit baring plants would flower slightly out of sync with the rest of the plants thus attracting pests, so that the majority of their pests would be at a different stage of their life cycle when the fruit bearing plants come to flower. Thus allowing the genome to go on.
It is common for the not so savvy farmer to destroy all hermaphrodites, thus removing this natural pest control mechanism that nature set in place, and in the end the idiot farmer would have no crop to show becasue pests would ravage his fruit bearing plants.
Please enlighten us on such natural occurrences. Thank you for your time.
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John Owens
Where are all these people with doctorates communicating with you, Ben? In your dreams? Find ONE reputable PHD in the field of genetics that will say GENETICALLY, people are born gay or not gay. I want to talk with that person, after I examine their credentials
You are talking about bugs and dogs and plants like we should emulate them. You and whomever feeds you this junk is desperately grasping at straws. No male mammal will PREFER another male of his species if there is a female in estrous available. I suppose you think if a puppy humps your foot, it was BORN to be a foot-humper? Cows will try to mount one another, and young bulls, but they have no idea what they are doing, and do not actually try to copulate. A male billy-goat in full rut will hump continuously on anything that he can mount, until he is too exhausted to rise. He still prefers nanny-goats. A breeding bull in a pasture with an ample number of cows will not hump any males. He prefers cows.
I'm surprised you mention hermaphrodites. Those are biological anomalies.
There are several ways in which this may occur. It can be caused by the division of one ovum, followed by fertilization of each haploid ovum and fusion of the two zygotes early in development. Alternately, an ovum can be fertilized by two sperm followed by trisomic rescue in one or more daughter cells. Two ova fertilized by two sperm cells will occasionally fuse to form a tetragametic chimera. If one male zygote and one female zygote fuse, a hermaphroditic individual may result. It can be associated with a mutation in the SRY gene (Wikipedia)
Studies in animals suggest this is sometimes caused by pesticides.
Either way, it is a distraction to talk about that particular abnormality when discussing that people may or may not be born gay. They are just born. They are not much of anything until TAUGHT or INFLUENCED to be. That is observable. Being born a certain way is NOT, since by the time any kind of sexuality or gender identity presents itself, the child has been under external influences for several or many years. It is decidedly UNscientific to discuss things that cannot be observed, proven, or demonstrated. That is just a fact.
If people want to believe baseless speculation, I suppose that is not because they are evil, but because they desperately want to hope for something of which they are not sure. We might call it wishful thinking. I don't mean to be an aguasfiestas to you, Ben. I just don't believe in allowing some things to be spoken without offering a counterpoint.
Mar Sin Leat
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Ben
Oh mighty inteligent ine, You are pulling this stuff out of your behind or what? Where are you getting thus science ? Please do post links, Thank you ih mighty smart John Owens. Share your proven research not just crazed Christian made up crap! You fool. I think you are a tard
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bakoa
I bet you are a janitor. A truly humble job. But let me preach to you one second, Gid is Good All The Time. Not only when straight children are born or when people are gay, God is Good Every Single time, even when you are being a bigot, God has a plan for your bigotry. God is Great, All the time, Every time You might not see it or understand it, but you dont have to. Just be you.
AMEN
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John Owens
It is interesting that you try to insult janitors while trying to insult me, Ben. It speaks volumes as to how you came to believe yourself to be "informed". You probably verbally champion the cause of the poor at the same time as you think them less... what? Less intelligent? Less literate? Less...evolved? At any rate, you should not ASSUME that a janitor does not have any degrees or work experience. They may be janitors because it pays well or because the problems a janitor encounters are actually solvable and therefore less stressful. I knew a man with a Phd who worked in his sister's chicken-houses because he made a lot more money there. I actually knew a janitor who had retired from the Air Force, then retired again from the DOC of NY, then just needed a forty hour a week job to supplement his pensions and pay for his Jaguar. Truck drivers are very well paid also. I won't drive a truck, because it is too stressful, but a normal truck driver makes as much money as a college professor, and a person who owns several trucks makes much more. Did you know many loggers have degrees in business management? No. You probably never thought of anything like that.
No. I'm a small cog in the white-collar sector of my company, and spend most of my day staring at this pantalla or talking to customers on the telephone. I read diagrams and part numbers and obtain logistical information and create purchase orders. I make about $25 and hour. I could make a lot more if I started a janitorial service but you would not believe how competitive that is. Sorry if you find that the least bit deflating.
Now, to exactly which point I mentioned would you like a reference? The part that says an infant is not much of anything until it is TAUGHT to be? As I STATED. That is OBSERVABLE. I'm sure you weren't BORN a spoiled, self-important insufferable blowhard. You may have a been a sweet baby, once. I can observe whether or not it is raining, regardless of what the meteorologists say.
Perhaps where I said it is unscientific to discuss things that cannot be observed, proven or demonstrated needs a reference?
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Harold Monge
God is God of order and purpose he created male and female out of this is just devine judgement as is written in Romans 1:21.
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bakoa
You obviously know enough science to babble about not knowing the difference beteeen men and women. You have not disproved the science I mentioned. You simply ranted your highschool science
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Gary
Interesting. Apparently ULC censors these comments. I posted a reply earlier that approaches the subject from a Spiritual not Christian view and it disappeared. Is this what this organization practices?
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bakoa
David Lay. It is a proven scientific fact that women see shades of colors differently, something to do with hormones. The funny thing about this fact is that gay men tend to see colors differently too . . . . Hmmm. Maybe they have pretended to be women so much that gay men have restructured their DNA? or where they simply born with more female hormones?
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The Doctor
Lol no ben it is not some scientific fact that genders see colors differently. Our eyes are constructed just the same and it is our eyes that seperate the different spectrums of light waves. Sure people can suffer from color blindness which can be very mild effecting subtle shades or very extreme rendering a persons world nearly black and white.
And color blindness isnt exactly rare in general though the more extreme versions are pretty more uncommon. And its not always apparent Ive a life long friend that didnt discover that for him that red and green spectrum colors all appeared as blue until he was an adult. For him reds and greens are just more blue. But since he wasnt an artist or in work that dealt with color coding it never became an issue. Imagine seeing superman or spider man and thinking they are just in one color outfits, how boring eh.
The science of light and its colors is among our oldest sciences and even then it wasnt until about 3 centuries ago that we finally caught on to color being in the light and not the objects.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
FYI to anyone wgho is intgerested: https://bsd.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2042-6410-3-21
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bakoa
According to new research, "Guys' eyes are more sensitive to small details and moving objects, while women are more perceptive to color changes, according to a new vision study that suggests men and women actually do see things differently." This makes sense because in the wild men are hunters they need to telll moving objects and msall details to distinguish camouflage or an approaching predator to protect his family.
"Researcher Israel Abramov, of the City University of New York (CUNY), said in a statement. Research has shown women have more sensitive ears and sniffers than men." Makes sense, a male with bad BO may have a congenital disease and no good for breeding. In fact this is how wolves chose genetically viable mates, via smell.
These are just some true scientific facts that explain many of male and female behaviors like why women like flowers, and good smelling things like perfumes. I am not going to bore you with the scientifica details but you can read about it all over the internet and reputable scientific journals.
So if Gay subs like the same things as females do, does this tell you something about the nature of being gay versus it being a choice?
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bakoa
animals, sex pheromones indicate the availability of the female for breeding. Male animals may also emit pheromones that convey information about their species and genotype. Thats also why females have a more hightened sense of smell. There is a reason the males of some species like the peacock have flasy colors and the females have better color perception. I hope this compliments your limited science. Gays are born Gays
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John Owens
It is impossible for a human to be born gay. I am sorry. There is no way any gay gene, chromosome, DNA, RNA, whatever you wish to call it, could have survived these hundreds or thousands of generations. There is no gene, recessive or otherwise that could have survived. Because of the lesser rate of reproduction, that gene would have been overwhelmed and bred completely out of existence eons ago.
I am not bashing or trashing homosexual people. I am just saying, stop making up stupid fake science to explain it. For those who think the Bible is all myth, this is just as much a myth as Santa Clause and the Easter bunny (which are both stupid pagan myths).
If you believe in evolution AT ALL, there is no way you can believe that people are BORN gay, UNLESS it is because the mother is subjected to some hormonal or chemical substance that causes it, WHICH MAY BE POSSIBLE, but is unproven, as is the elusive "homosexual gene."
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Stephanie Willey
John Owens, scientific and medical research done mostly in the last 4 decades shows clearly and indisputably that humans are indeed and in fact BORN gay. Humans are ALSO born straight too. The small minority of those who dispute these finding are the ones spreading "fake science". Please spend some quality time reading the REAL scientific and medical research. I did. I've spent the last 18 years studying the research.
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John Owens
Stephanie, I don't know where you read that garbage, but it wasn't science. The NON-scientists saying it was are the ones spreading fake science. How in the HELL would you ask a newborn what was their sexual preference? Is there a blood test for homosexuality? A chromosome count? What? Pure garbage is what that is. That is the dumbest thing a person could even say. You have to CHOOSE to be misinformed to listen to any of that. I postulated that there COULD be some chemical imbalance HERETOFORE UNDISCOVERED that could cause that but so far there is NO SCIENCE showing that people are born homosexual.
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John Owens
Stephanie and Ben, when a new child is born, sex is the absolute LAST thing on their mind, male or female. They aren't choosing a gender, or a preference. They just want someone to hold them, care for them, and stick a teat in their mouth. To say they are born gay OR NOT is ridiculous. That is like saying they are born race-car drivers or warriors or criminals or nuns or ANYTHING. I am so appalled that people like you can be so emotionally attached to an issue that you cannot see that very obvious, very simple thing. Children are what we, the adults around them make them, or what we ALLOW to be made of them, within certain limits of their DNA. If people were born gay then both identical twins would always be gay if one of them was. Anyone trying to appropriate the name of science to say otherwise is the fake science equivalent of a witch doctor without the colorful regalia.
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bakoa
You can keep the stench of the bigot all you want. Those that discriminate against Gays and Lesbians are a minority and a dying breed anyways. SO keep it up, you will only breed among yourselves, because non-bigots do not mate with non bigots unless by accident. Meaning you will die off sooner than later.
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bakoa
The message people are sending here is that because humans have a more tolerant approach to discrimination, we are better than God. We protect human rights and God does not. We advocate for Gays and Lesbians and God does not. Now if this reality does not help you pull your head out of where the sun don't shine then you deserve the tench therein. AMEN!
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Gary
I struggled with homophobia for many years until 5 years ago. I was subbing in at a local high school in a psychology class and the lesson was on transgender children. I read the chapter and supporting articles and was amazed at the information that is available on the subject. Later at lunch I was discussing the topic with a biology teacher and she mentioned that some animals turn to homosexual activity when there is an overpopulation problem. Hmmmm city life? Arriving at my home I asked my wife, a psychic medium, to contact her Spirit Guide to add clarification to what heaven thinks about homosexuality. Here is the response: "Does man judge the coupling of beasts in the forest, or the coupling of the fishes in the sea, or the coupling of the ant? Then why would we judge the coupling of man?" The response clearly takes aim at our humans as and the incessant need to judge all who may differ from our narrow view of normalcy. Expand your tolerance level and life will become more peaceful and positive. Remember, we are down here to learn UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, which excludes any form of racism or discrimination. Rev. Gary Zoldowski
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Gary
Should say "humaness" not "humans as" Gary
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Rev. John D. Partin
Thank you very much, Rev. Gary Zoldowski! That is truly the most beautiful and spiritual teaching that I have ever read from anyone else here! You are certainly correct and that is God's and the spirit's true teaching on homosexuality and acceptance of it!
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David
I’m very sorry, but I will never accept that lifestyle, nor will I ever accept that God made a mistake and made a man a woman or a woman a man. No one is born gay, they become gay by their lifestyle and choices. I have a grandson that I love very much, but I will not accept his lifestyle. It’s wrong in both covenants, therefore it is wrong in it’s entirety. God didn’t make two men and tell them go make babies, he told a man and woman.
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Stephanie Willey
David Lay, statement is and remains the example of the science denier. Medical ans scientific FACTS contradict your belief that "... God made a mistake and made a man a woman or a woman a man. No one is born gay..." (your words). But in fact it is a medical FACT that people are BORN with their sexuality (gay, straight, whatever...) AND their core identity (gender identity). The "choice" you refer to in your statement is YOUR OWN choice to deny science. Your grandson did NOT choose to be gay, he was BORN that way.
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Rev. John D. Partin
David Lay, a man and a woman together don't always make babies, but you aren't saying that they shouldn't be together because of that, are you? If making babies doesn't have to be the reason for straight people's being together, then it doesn't have to be the reason for gay people's being together, either, consistently and fairly speaking. Both covenants of the Bible were written by human beings and so merely contain human prejudices and bigotry against homosexuality, not the actual words of God against it. God's thinking is higher than small and narrow minded people's "thinking" on this matter, as Isaiah 55:8-9 tells us, or else that passage of Scripture is wrong. Which is it? Nobody would choose to be gay in this homophobic society and world, where gay people are insulted, disrespected, denied their human rights, brutalized, and even killed, since that would be like someone's choosing to be Jewish in Nazi Germany! God put some men in women's bodies and women in men's bodies because He wants people to stand on their own two feet and not have to have everything done for them and go and get sex change operations, in order to be who they truly are. So, it wasn't a mistake.
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Gary
Amen
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bakoa
God creates Gays and Lesbians. Get over it. It is as natural as being an albino. Appreciate them with the same aw you appreciate an Albino. They are Gods beutiful creations. Feel blessed for knowing them and experiencing their presence
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Carl Elfstrom
And don't forget, Gay Pride is next month. Be there or be square, despite nay sayers, for we are the champions of the world !
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John Owens
Freddie Mercury would be so proud!
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John Owens
Oh! By the way, do you think if Freddie Mercury had been a heterosexual, would he have still died from AIDS?
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Dark Gray
Maybe, but probably not. My question is, would he have been as terrific a showman/performer/musician? I'm thinking probably not.
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John Owens
He was THAT! Elton John (Reggie Dwight) too. Mercury was arguably one of the best singers that ever lived.
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Nat Lomax
The Bible is a book of life, it changes as you walk through the Bible’s time lines and from the Old Testimate through the New. The entries demonstrate man’s best and worst, Given the times and situations, we also see that God and Christ are both interactive and responsive - I see it as unconditional love in practice.
I also believe that Christ intended for us to continue our journey through life through the Holy Spirit. He understood that there would be challenges and debates like the ones we are having here. He understood that life would go on and that we would need the HolySpirit to help guide us.
Christ understood that life is messy, it is not one thing or the other. He preache love and forgiveness as tools to get through tough times. He did not wrap life up into a package as if it were a done deal, sealed in a book.
Although the Bible is a Great book, it is not the end all. If we are truly going to call ourselves Christians, then we should follow the teachings of Christ, he desperately tried to move man forward, not backward. He asked that we meet new challenges and situations with the mindset of love discernment of the human condition with all its many facets.
When I hear a series of Bible quotes to prove a point, I hear an effort to tie our human experience into a tight little package as if there is a fear to move forward.
If we don’t dialogue using the tools Christ gave us, we are doomed to loose the salvation He wants for us.
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John Owens
Nat Lomax, to what or whom were you replying? Or maybe it was just an open comment? Just wondering because it seemed off topic where it appeared. No problem.
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Minister RVW
After reading comments like many of the above, I'm left speechless. I wish some who comment were left the same way. RVW
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Rev. Dr. Kelly
I'm not a Christian, but was raised in a strong Christian community. One of my biggest peeves is this idiocy of calling anyone who disagrees with a homosexual lifestyle "homophobic". I don't understand the sexual desire for a person of the same sex, but I don't care if two people of ANY persuasion love each other. But, any time I simply state that I don't understand, I'm immediately branded "homophobic". Fear has nothing to do with it. I am hopelessly(?) straight in my own life, and truly just don't see the attraction. I also don't see the need to parade my sexuality in front of the world. When others do, however, they should be prepared for criticism. Any issue has multiple viewpoints, and there are very few universal agreements. But, this crap about name calling needs to stop on all sides. "homophobic" has to be one of the more stupid insults ever created, and should be beneath The Universal Life Church to use.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Rev. Dr. Kelly, you may not see the need for gay people to, as you say, "parade their sexuality in front of the world" or have Gay Pride Parades, but try to put yourself in their position and empathize with them, a little bit, and you would see that their being outspoken about their gayness is necessary for them to counteract the suppression and discrimination whch gay people have been subjected to in this country and around the world for hundreds or thousands of years and the fight for acceptance, so that they will have their full human rights, isn't over yet! This is the same as it has been for black people and other minorities in this country. The same as it would be for you, in their position. They could hardly be out of the closet and proud of their sexuality, while not ever displaying it in public at the same time! Yes, just not understanding homosexuality, by itself, doesn't make you homophobic because there are probably many gay men who don't understand their own attraction to men (and, so what?, because they just do it!) without that making them homophobic, but you can certainly understand how your saying that you don't understand the attraction of two men or two women for each other would be equated, in some gay people's minds, with a condemnation of homosexuality, when that is what they have been subjected to from the majority of straight people and they are just going by their own experiences and generalizing, the same as other people do. "Any issue has multiple viewpoints", yes, but the multiple viewpoints here are pretty cut and dried: you are either for gay people's full equality and acceptance in society, so they can have their full equality, or you aren't. Which is it?
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Tom
It is interesting how this article does not mention Islam's take on gay marriage. Are we perhaps scared to offend the most sensitive religion in the world?
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John Gile
Mormons have a prophet who speaks with God, just like Moses. Why is it expected that social acceptance of homosexuality would change what God is telling the prophet to teach the people? The question is: if the Mormons have a true prophet who really speaks with God and God says that heterosexual relationship is the goal to live up to (just as Moses advocated), who are the people dissenting with? What about people who have a 'natural' tendency to kill, abuse, burn or steal? Where do you draw the line?
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Pstr Wm. Dowell
I saw a lot of good points but here's one that's hard to argue with. If everyone in this world suddenly got into a gay marriage then humankind would die in 100 years or less because there would be no procreation! God says man with man and woman and woman is wrong and nature which God created says the same thing. End of argument!
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Timothy Wade
What??? Have you ever heard of false analogy? It ain't gonna happen. I shouldn't even reply to such hypothetical nonsense but this kind of statement hurts my brain. What if everyone in the world suddenly became reasonable? That won't happen either. End of what argument? First you have to have an argument. Of course, you may have something there and my poor feeble brain just cant wrap itself around such high logic. What?!!!
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Carl Elfstrom
Who's arguing? We're just stating known facts in spite of your make believe, biblical fairytales.
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Bill Fox
If the "Christian" sect is scripture based, "gay" marriage is not possible. However, if the Christian sect is "doctrinally" based, then it is simply a matter of changing the doctrine to accept gay marriage.
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Carrie
Most of them have. They even have Women ministers and pastors in the more advanced. Love is love...love and devotion to one another should be our creed, not some "scripture"
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Carl Elfstrom
They can always say God did it, and call it the word of God.
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Timothy McCoy
There is only One Judge and Lawgiver and the Bible has always been the Cornerstone of Christianity. Any one who takes God's Word seriously,knows what it has to say on these matters. Disagreeing with someone on the LGBT issues here doesn't necessarily mean we don't love them ,or that one is "homophobic", or that it's intolerant. It may,however,be a signal that certain church congregations are simply going by the direction of the Scriptures clear teachings. This,as the headline assumes, isn't "turning their noses up" either. We must consider what the Bible warns of the prophetic Last Days as well. Based solely upon what it says and not human opinions or what's politically "correct". 2Timothy 3:1-7.,2 Thes.2:7-12.,2Peter 3:3-10.1Timothy4:1. If we read this Word from a heart of sincere Faith and not a headstrong "religious do and don't" but with compassion towards all should gently convey it's message. If one refuses to hear it or take it seriously we shouldn't judge them but love them and leave the Judgment to God Almighty. He will,I'm sure execute His Will regardless of what direction the institutional churches take on this issue.
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Amber
Honestly, yes I think it eventually will. How soon would be the question. Religions that do not change with the needs of the people, with the understanding and support of and for the people end up dissolving and fading away. If Christianity is to survive, another biblical revision is going to be needed.
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John Owens
Just shows that churches follow fads, rather than scripture, and modern people have no stomach for being called the bad guys. This current trend will last a while, then it will change, maybe swing back the other way, maybe march right on into something else. Nothing new.
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James
In the end , if we are speaking from a Christian stand point, it doesn't matter what we accept or think. Homosexuality is a unnatural process by definition No babies can be made through the act. Just like a drug, sex is a desire used by the devil to change the course of mankind. Blessing can come from above and below. So why not desire? I judge my actions as I was taught.. Who does this benefit, how does it benefit, how long will it benefit ... If it's me, me, short time. It's usually bad. If it's my family,, greatly, and generational. Then it's most likely good. Be careful of the guideline we apply to a religion that wasn't supposed to be a religion but a path to faith in God. Just my thought.
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Tigerz
We’ve all read, ‘if a man shall lay with another he shall surely die’. We’re told not to judge but are told to ‘send them to Me’ (God). ‘And it will cease happening among us’. There’s no other way to interpret that. There’s only one way to send them to God. Harsh by our pity party standards, but not by Gods.
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Lea Weisenbach
Its a shame that people still follow these words that have been the cause of all wars in the name of god...The bible is just a book of history..not gods word..just mans idea...There are other books.
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John Owens
So you are saying, the U.S. entered WW2 on religious grounds. I'll have to ruminate on that one...hmm... Nope. Can't see it. I'm glad you said the Bible is a book of history, though. It tells what happens to nations when they do not have a just judicial system and a moral code.
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Lea Weisenbach
Hating Jews..genocide?..put your thinking cap on...
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John Owens
The Jews were not the reason for the WAR. The genocide against them was actually only incidental. We entered the WAR because the Germans were sinking ships, and later the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. The Japanese also did not attack for religious grounds, although serving the Emperor was considered a sacred duty. It was economics.
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Rev. John D. Partin
John Owens, you didn't, obviously, understand Lea Weis' statement because she didn't say that people's following the words of the Bible have been the cause of all wars, but only all wars in the name of god (for "Christians" only, obviously). If she had meant that Bible following had been the cause of all wars, she would have stopped, as anyone would, after "all wars" and not added "in the name of god". I would tell you to read her post again, but you didn't get it the first time, and so what would be the point? The Bible doesn't even really work as a history book because a "virgin birth", "resurrection", "ascension", "an ark carrying two of every animal in the world", "talking donkey", "talking snake", "seven plagues of Egypt", "the sun stopping in the sky", etc. ad nauseam don't sensibly qualify as history, but only mythology and lies! Asked if it was possible that there was anything holy to "the celebrated agnostic", Henry Drummond in Inherit The Wind said: "Yes! The individual human mind. In a child's ability to master the multiplication table, there is more holiness than all your shouted hosannas and holy holies. An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral and the advancement of Man's knowledge more miraculous than all the sticks turned to snakes and the parting of the waters". I can go along with that idea of holiness!!
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Yes Lea, the bible is a collection of stories supposedly written over a 1500 year period written by men for men and filled with so much violence, killing, etc. All we have to do is look at what has happened over time to see religious war after religious war around Europe and Asia.
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Lea Weisenbach
Yes Chtherine I agree with you. But religion hit America..the new land. That judgement also commented a genocide on the Indians..
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Yes Lea, you are preaching to the choir. My ancestors survived the atrocities committed against them by christian invaders. They actually believed they had a "god given right" to steal, kill, and enslave First Americans. Their attempts to kill us all off with everything from mass murders, to smallpox infected blankets, relocation and forcing our people onto reservations which were nothing more than concentration camps, failed. We are still here!
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Carl Elfstrom
God didn't write the Bible, men did. People have thought God inspired them to commit much evil in this world. How many of them were playing with a full deck ? The only people I've known personally who ever claimed to have received prophesies from God were diagnosed schizophrenics.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Sort of like folks today who say they see Jesus in a potato chip.
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Carl Elfstrom
A potato chip ? What kind, Lays or Ruffles ? Wouldn't it be easier with a crystal ball ?
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Carl Elfstrom
You better send yourself to god first to make sure that's what is meant.
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Carl Elfstrom
Bob,did you know that ULC isn't a christian denomination, and this is not a christian minister's blog. Although some ULC ministers think they are Christians, we are not christian ministers of the ULC. And did you know that that ULC supports gay marriages,and even sells books to its ministers on how to perform gay weddings. Did you also know that some of our fellow ULC ministers are gays and lesbians. Some ULC ministers are even Satanists. And all that sir is against your interpretation of the will of your dismal god. So, in effect sir, as long as you are a ULC minister and contributor to this ULC Ministers Blog, you are supporting the beliefs and tenets of ULC, which is against yourGod. And by your own admission and explanation of your beliefs, your god hates you being in support of ULC, and will punish you for that support you give by being a ULC minister.
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Carl Elfstrom
Bob, we have a name for people like you, down here in Texas. It's called biotch. It means the same thing as a Native American Indian burdache. It's a name you can be proud of, for you really wear it well.
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Alan J Meunier
Survival of those who can ADAPT. If a church can no longer adapt to modern changing times then it will soon cease to exist.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Agree Alan, and it would be a very positive change if all the misogynistic, paternalistic churches did cease to exist and more churches which were all inclusive and focused on LOVE, and humanitarian values flourished..
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Lea Weisenbach
The winner wrote the bible and a way to control the people...people that needed answers and superstions set in. Sad...but some need answers for their loss..miss fortunes..and someone to blame. .. The word god is nothing more than Good ..Orderly..Direction. And we as humans must fine reason and compassion in our lives..Towards ourselves and others. This God and Satan is nothing more than a way for people to make judgments of others..As in looking at a man of god as always a good person and of course a person of not of your belief as Satan...The good and bad...With this mind set to view people that don't live..think...and view the world your way is and act of Satan....Its just a means to hate. Marriage to me is a contract union of 2 people that is family...I don't care if they are the opposite sex or the same..its a family.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Aho, Lea! Great comments. Thank you.
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flugo
You may believe about marriage to your own peril. But God has ordained, from Genesis through the New Testament, that marriage is between one male and one female.
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
Bob, if that is the case, then what of marriage before Judaism? It's now commonly accepted that Judaic thought goes back much further than 4 Oct 4004 BCE (the supposed date of creation). By the way, the Catholic Church did not have anything to do with marriage until after a ruler donated land to the local church as payment for performing his marriage ceremony in the 11th century CE. Then they realized that it was possible for them to make money off of performing marriages, and decreed that ALL marriages has to be performed by a parish priest to be valid. The poor, who did not have the money to pay for the marriage (and had no property to make it worthwhile) continued to follow the old rules for marriage, or, if they were lucky enough to find one, had a mendicant perform the ceremony for them, as the vows of poverty the mendicant took, combined with the fact that they were not a parish priest, made it less financially burdensome.
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Lea Weisenbach
Bob..believe what benefits you. But let me tell you I was disowned for marrying out of my culture and religion...I went on with my life and removed myself and my family from that type of ugly nature. I'm not a Christian anymore..I beleive that god has no religion if you choose to believe in the invisible man...My parents never saw their beautiful grand daughter...In I'm glad...My brothers son is in jail and my sister died before 50...And for myself..I have been happily married for 40 years..Namaste
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Dark Gray
" But God has ordained, from Genesis through the New Testament, that marriage is between one male and one female."
No. Just no. David had at least eight wives. Solomon had seven hundred wives and three hundred concubines. If you're going to argue the Old Testament, bob, please at least get your facts straight!
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Carl Elfstrom
Isn't it best to achieve and maintain balance in every aspect of life ? Doesn't that include good and evil ?
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flugo
Greipp: "If you 'hate' you are in big trouble spiritually." Come on, let's cut the nonsense and get a greipp on the TRUTH!
According to the Scriptures, we are to pattern our lives after God. Numerous Scriptures encourage us to be Christlike, godly.
Well, our Heavenly Father 'hates'! (Proverbs 16:19 -7 things; Genesis 19:1-11 & Leviticus 18:22 - homosexuality; Malachi 2:16 - divorce; . . . . . . the list goes on.
It's the PRACTICE of the sins that God deems a hateful abomination, wretched, and defiling. But He completely loves the sinners, the ones caught up in life-destroying attitudes and behavior.
It is NOT wrong to hate, so long as it's directed toward the 'wrongdoing' and not the 'wrongdoer'.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Wow, you are incredibly disrespectful...sad man bob....Do you remember, "Love Thy neighbor As Thyself"?????? Hate is a destroyer. I do not believe in your angry, spiteful, vengeful god anyway. I believe in a loving, positive force. You need to get a grip honey.
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Allen Alexander
We don't use the 'H' word in my home. I have taught my children to say they "do not like", the 'H' word has too many negative connotations. My God doesn't hate.
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flugo
I don't know who your god is. Who is he, she, or it? The loving, righteous God of the Bible does hate.
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Stephanie Willey
The God of unconditional love and infinite grace has no room for hate. This is the God I know.
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John Owens
bob correctly stated that God DOES hate certain behaviors. I quote one exact scripture :
PROVERBS 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Just because He is a God of Love, does not mean He loves all of the things that people do. He does not hate people. He hates actions.
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Carl Elfstrom
One man's hell is another one's heaven. I'm going to the part of the Summer Land (known also as Luna, and heaven, etc.) where A/C D/C, Black Sabbath, and Judas Priest will be performing live throughout eternity. And I've got front row seats that I can use anytime I want, for I can check out any time I want, but I can never leave. And who in the hell would ever want to leave such a party ?! Of course, if anyone ever tries, he or she will meet Cerberus.
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Dark Gray
I find that whenever something brings up that old chestnut ("Love the sinner but hate the sin.") that they tend to focus more on the hating part than on the loving part. It's really just an excuse to indulge in hatred while just giving lip service to love. Because, you know, Christians are supposed to be loving.
How's about proving me wrong, bob? Try focusing more on the 'love' aspect of your statement. Put more of your energy into loving the sinner and less into hating the sin.
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flugo
Un-whte; Your first paragraph is largely a generalization, an assumption and subjective in the extreme.
I don't have to prove you wrong. God's Word proves you wrong.
Christians who follow Christ's teachings do love the sinner. But, God the Father 'hated' sin so much that it cost His son, Jesus, His life!
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Dark Gray
"Your first paragraph is largely a generalization, an assumption and subjective in the extreme."
No, my first paragraph is not "largely" a generalization. It is completely a generalization. The words "I find that" should have clued you in on the fact. I have made a generalization based on years of experience, and I stand by it. You can argue the point if you like, but based on my experience, whenever someone talks about loving the sinner and hating the sin, their attitude tends to be "yeah-I-love-the-sinner, whatever, but I REALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT HATING THE SIN!!"
" But, God the Father ‘hated’ sin so much that it cost His son, Jesus, His life!"
Er, except that it didn't, did it? Not in any meaningful sense, anyway. Jesus was resurrected -- you've heard that, right? -- and is still alive to this day, sitting at the right hand of the Father, and will come again, yadda, yadda, yadda. He was never in any danger of staying dead. The resurrection was planned from the beginning. How does that constitute "costing his life"?
Sure, Jesus willingly suffered unspeakable agony for hours and hours to make a point -- and I give him all kinds of props and respect for that -- but the "ultimate sacrifice" that lots of Christians like to feel guilty about didn't exactly happen. In fact, that was the whole point of the resurrection -- that that type of sacrifice is not only unnecessary, but impossible.
Besides which, any theology which states that an omnipotent being somehow cannot rid the universe of something He "hates", somehow could not prevent His perfect creations from descending into evil, and somehow was forced to slaughter His Son to satiate His own bloody desire for sacrifice . . . well, that theology has some serious logical flaws.
Let me say that again: Mainstream Christian theology has always been seriously flawed and badly needs to be reformed.
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Carrie
100% The whole Myth of the bible is weird! If it was written today it would be considered X-rated. It is filled with rape, murder and filth! What vivid imaginations they must have had....of course it was rewritten several hundred times, added to, subtracted from, edited, badly translated...so of course it MUST be true!
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Carl Elfstrom
What makes you think that God is totally straight ? God's not a pervert, like those fools who wrote the Bible ! Isn't it obvious that God is bisexual?
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Rev. John D. Partin
Bob, once again, some Bible writers' telling us that THEY!!! hated many things and putting their words into "God's mouth", to "sanctify" and "justify" them and impose them on other people much easier doesn't, in any way, shape or form tell us that God actually hated any of these things. They didn't actually speak for God, anymore than you and other right-wing and neo-Nazi haters speak for God, no matter how much you think and say that you do!! Just your and the Bible writers' saying and "thinking" that you speak for God doesn't actually make it true!! God is love, as this Bible that you claim to "believe" clearly states, and so He can't also be promoting and teaching us to hate, too, since that would be a logical contradiction in terms, to anyone who is sensible enough to understand that!!
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John Owens
Joseph's favorite subject again.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
It is most interesting that some ULC ministers do not accept the work and focus of the monastery. The Universal Life Church Monastery has posted on its website that it continues "to provide a voice to and fight for the rights of those whose freedoms are being violated around the world." "We continue our battle to ensure that residents of all 50 states are permitted to become ministers under often antiquated and biased legal systems. Additionally, the war rages on to ensure that any individual, regardless of his or her gender, should be permitted to marry any individual of his or her choosing." To say one hates the LGBT community is in direct conflict with the work of our organization and in fact violates our agreement with the ULC. If you "hate" you are in big trouble spiritually. Why does anyone care if members of the LGBT community want to marry??? It is about LOVE and is no skin off your nose and does not affect you at all!
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Gary Hynous
Scientist now believe that sexual predispositions may be genetic. The male gay gene is thought to be inherited from the mother and the lesbian gene from the father. Check it out on the internet.
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
EXCELLENT way of expressing this, Catherine.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Thank you John.
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Carl Elfstrom
And also Catherine, you're doing a much better job than I could do so I'm trying to read more and write less. I too often get angry and frustrated about ignorant and prejudiced comments, and totally lose my cool. Enough's enough. I'm staying out of it. It's just back and forth bickering on this blog that never ends.
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Carrie
Your point is well thought out. Love is love and hate merely a denial of love. It is said that those that step forward with the most hate, usually have the most to hide. Does it mean they might be fearful they they ARE themselves? Psychologists seem to agree on that point. Of course, as stated below, you can learn any lie, and accept it as truth, if you read it on the internet! Best wishes, keep up your good works. Blessed Be.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Rev Carrie, many positive, living blessings to you as well..
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Typo, loving blessings to you.
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Stephen Foster
Catherine -
Bravo for you! The “religious right” fails to observe the text “judge not for you too will be judged”.
Thank you for your emboldened message!
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Carl Elfstrom
It is also interesting to note that the ULC allows posts about things they do not approve of.
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Carrie
It seems to me that a whole group of "Christians" here are not that at all. They are evangelical whores. Instead of quoting from the new testament, which, by the way, was written about Christ, they selectively pick stupid quotes from the Talmud, the old testament, which has nothing to do with Jesus! If you worship God through Christ how can you be so blind and ignorant? Christ taught nonjudgmental love of your fellow, not the hate you preach. If your "God" teaches you to hate, you are worshiping the WRONG God! LGBTQ are people too! As such, they deserve the same love and respect as anyone else. "Judge ye not lest ye be judged." "Let he, who is without sin, cast the first stone." No one here is so pure that they have the right to judge what is right or wrong for another. In my reed it is "Do as ye will, and harm none." Love is love....get over yourself!
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James
You made a circle back to your point. The old test leads to Jesus. I. E. The history of the plan, the new test is the Christ blood Covenant. Yet, he tells us about sin and how it kills the soul, tells us about sexual immorality. Judgement was not about being your brothers keeper, but condemning people to death or hell. "the mob thing" not pointing out that an action or practice is completely gross, hygienicly horrible, genetically impossible, and socially acceptable. It's against God foundational orders. So that's you argument? Everything is good and no judgement? So we are evolutionary animals and nothing matters. I see you. Nice try. Hehe
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Carrie
You speak illogical logic. Talk about circles! I state that the mythos of the bible is stunning bad. If you wish to believe in such blather and live your tiny little time of ignorance and hate, less power to you. You prefer to judge others rather than surround yourself with life and love...what a pity. Other than that, there is nothing to say. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. The seeds you sow, you will reap threefold...good luck.
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Hoggdogg
I donot support the lbgt and saying i was born this was dont tell god that and god made a mistake . I dont have to accepted it just hate the sin and the lbgt i guess they cross out about when a man lay down with anothet man that not a church its a church of sin
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Larry Copeland
Obey GODS LAW or SATANS? The choice is your responsibility. Your choice is Heavin or Hell!! We do not have the right to change Gods rules for getting into Heavin or Hell?
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Pastor Dave
Agreed! Keep the faith my friend!
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bakoa
Wow, so you believe in an all mighty God, yet you elevate an entity to his level. If Satan was as powerful and at the same level as Gd, then Humans stand no chance. So ironic, ignorant and playfully childish to believe in all this Satan Versus God Imaginary heavenly wars. Truly Star Wars-ish. The Dark Side! The Force! the Pedigree of jedi's! The savior of the Universe, Death Stars, clones. They all have their religious counterparts
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Rev. Theo. Klebes
Open your Bible for your spell check. I which you're there please read about the love that God and Jesus have For All Mankind. We are all created by God In His Image you're telling me that God Makes Mistakes by creating lgbtq people, well you are wrong. Please continue to educate yourself and I will continue to pray for you. Peace and love to all.
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Rev. Theo. Klebes
First line second paragraph should say ...,..... And while you are there.........
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Alan J Meunier
He ("God") admitted to errors SEVERAL times in the bible, however, LGBT people, "errors" or not, are still HUMAN and should be treated as such.
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flugo
Yes, these LGBT?! people should be treated as humans, but their sinful, despicable, unnatural BEHAVIOR is unacceptable to sensibility and to a righteous, holy God.!
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The Doctor
Bob if you believe in an unseen entity as your righteous and holy creator then you logically lack any form of sensibility. Your choice of words paints you as a very negative soul and suspect your energy taints all those that allow you into their lives.
For the sake of those you love follow the path of those in your precious scripture and go get lost in a desert for many years.
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Pastor Dave
But using that rational, it’s ok to be a theif or a murder.
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Rev J
Only if you deny God and accept satan does that work. No gray are in their for God. Both at mortal sins. LGBT folks were not born that way by God. God only created male and female. He did not create other, God also stated marriage is between a man and a woman not Adam and Steve or Delia and Donna.
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bakoa
Satan. There is that scapegoat word again. Why is it that you can be satanic toward gays and lesbians and blame their acts of love as satanic.
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Rick
Theft and murder both have obvious unwilling victims who have been forced into circumstances that bring direct harm. It's not at all the same as two consenting adults of the same gender who love each other and want to be together.
Shame on you for trying to make such an outrageously unequal comparison.
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Gary
My sister is lesbian and I love her very much and she knows that I do and she knows that I believe it's a sinful relationship but I'm not her judge I'm only someone that loves his sister and sin is sin no matter what form lust ,lieing ,stealing,ect....
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Dark Gray
"I believe it’s a sinful relationship but I’m not her judge I’m only someone that loves his sister"
You know, I think that's one of the most heart-warming things I've read in this entire discussion
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The Doctor
I feel very sorry that your sister has you in her life. If you love her then go wander the desert and never return to society until you have become a new prophet
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bakoa
Rev Theo Klebes, Shame on you to call yourself Reverend. You are a Reverend of What? If your intellect cannot wrap around the Millions of children born transgendered and with both male and female sex organs, and Gay and Lesbian, Millions upon Millions of them, then you are a sick man for even considering yourself a leader of people. Sick man indeed.
For all you so called people of the word out there who condemn Gays and Lesbian, you are fakes and you know it in your hearts.
You know you are fakes and you know you are exploiting people and pushing a personal agenda. You know this, we know this, and the whole world knows this.
People came to the realization that witchcraft, sorcery, Satan and eternal damnation are threats made in order to collect tithes. It is all about manipulation, exploitation and pushing an Ego Centered agenda
A loving God has no EGO and therefore a loving God has room for hate, and a loving God has no need to approve because there is nothing to approve or reprimand
A loving God creates both Good and Evil and it is through WORK and not Faith alone that we shall see Gods eternal illumination. Faith give direction to your spiritual work.
The works of Faith are not charitable works but are works done upon the soul to seek eternal comprehension. Soul has no gender, bias or sexual anything. The body is a placeholder for the soul and so you must work to learn how to see past the body and the physical realm
It is not called upon all human to understand such things, but it is called to all humans to live a righteous life. SO God gave you a conscience to guide you and if you chose to follow the illusions of Ego, then you are missing the point, hence living in Sin.
That is the only and true meaning of Sin, to miss one's Mark. Sin does not mean to be bad, rotten or designated for some eternal damnation, and the only way a soul can truly die is to remain in ignorance because there is and can be no greater suffering for a soul but to be in the darkness of ignorance and away from the light.
Work on your soul for a better understanding of God's creation that is never ending and constantly changing for eternity. But the true essence of being is a constant, gender-less and independent of the physical realm
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James
Sodom and gamora, how ever you spell them. I ain't saying that any one is going to hell, no judgement. Yet ,sexual immorality is a very strong tool of the devil. Once we mix desire so much with religion then it's it the religion of Sodom and.... So that all being said, is sexual desire stronger than self control? Do you attack someone for believe the opposite as you? Or do you try to convince them that their religion except you way of life? Christians don't except sin, they try to stay away, ask for forgiveness and help sinners. Tolerance is the word....
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flugo
'Tolerance' is NOT the word! The 'word' is God's Word! And there is NO toleration toward homosexuality!
Homosexuality is an abomination, a defilement, vile, and unnatural against the character of a loving, righteous Heavenly Father. (Leviticus 18:22 (abomination); Genesis 19:1-11 (Sodom and Gomorrah); Romans 1:25-28 (unnatural); I Corinthians 6:9,10 (danger of hell)
God hates the PRACTICE of homosexuality, but loves the homosexual. He's capable and ready to transform the lives of any and all types of sinners, regardless of their shortcomings.
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Alan J Meunier
Yes, speaking of "sexual immortality", it was Lott and his DAUGHTERS...cherry pick much? Also, as in your bible, do you eat seafood? Have a beard? Don't cut your hair? Don't work on Sunday? According to your bible you should also not be here, of all places, casting stones. Hypocrisy 101
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Stephen P. .Moser sr.
Very well said?
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John Owens
The Bible doesn't say anything about not working on Sunday. The Bible treats Sunday as any other day.
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James
I read it as "god rested on the 7th day"... Who is to spin that related to the "day" it is to be? If biblical materials are taken / read as an owners manual for the human mind in full spectrum (emotional, mental, physical & spiritually). Readers might hold / see additional perspective few may have thought of.
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Gary
on march 7, A.D. 321 the Roman emperor Constantine he legalized christianly and made the first Sunday keeping Law which reads as follows: "on the venerable Day of the Sun let magistrates and people residing in cities rest ,and let workshops be closed."(Codex Justinainus 3.12.3,trans. Philip Schaff , history of the Christian Church, 5th ed.and then the sunday law was officially conformed by the Roman Papacy AD 364
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John Owens
Correct, Gary. Sunday is not the 7th day. It is the first.
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Stephanie Willey
The God I know does not hate. A God of unconditional love and infinite grace has no room for hate. Hate and intolerance I think are the purview of a different god.
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Rev J
Hi Ms. Willey, You must not be a bible reader. How do I know this? Because it is clearly stated in many biblical passages that God does hate sin but loves the person he created, the sinner. I include some passages for your enlightenment on this. God can perfectly hate sin and sinners in all holiness while also perfectly loving sinners and desiring they repent and receive forgiveness (Psalm 5; 11; Malachi 1:3; Revelation 2:6; 2 Peter 3:9). As human beings, we cannot love perfectly nor hate perfectly (without malice). So we need the reminder to love the sinner yet hate the sinful action. We are called to love others and also "to keep oneself unstained from the world" (James 1:27). "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is one way to do this. Just remember that God did not destroy humanity, in Noah's time, because He loved us. It was because He hated what we had become so much He decided kill all life with the flood whom did not freely chose life in Him. However He so loved his people that he offered us salvation by voluntarily entering God's Ark to be saved. Not many people entered because their was only evil in their hearts and no desire for repentance. Only Noah and his family, who had faith and I sure we sinners to some extent, in God and sough out His protection from the storm. Yours In Christ, Rev J
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Anita Ganser
This makes it seem as if same sex intimacy is more sinful than straight people having sex. We have helped so many by allowing marriage for our brothers and sisters. Ther stay out of sexual sin dinner
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Benoit
The one thing I have not seen in all these posts is the reslity of gay genetics. People are born crosseired and GAY. So unless Satan is creating himan beimgs then God is making Gay people
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
Interesting, Bob, how there is not one reference to the first 3 books of the NT in your posting. Romans and Corinthians were both written by Saul of Tarsis, as was the majority of the NT. The only books written by contemporaries of Yeshua ibn Youssef ben David were those first 3. NOWHERE in those books does he say anything about homosexuality (and, there would be at least 1 reference to it if he HAD said something, simply because the censors who chose the books accepted as orthodox NT, would have included it, knowing the Roman stance on the subject). Saul brought in the traditional Jewish response to the matter, because he did not unlearn what he had learned as a child. It IS counterproductive genetically, as there is no way to produce a child, but it is FAR from unnatural. If it was, then it would not continue to be so widespread, on a PLANETARY basis. Prior to European contact, it was actually very common for those who, today, would be classed as LGBTQ, to become shamans and/or other respected figures in their communities among Native Americans.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Great writing John. Our tribes have always recognized and respected "two spirits."
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flugo
John: Jesus' teaching in Matthew 19:4&5 is clearly monogamous, male and female. His concept is contrary to same-sex relations.
Jesus, also, said He and His Father are one. So, God's (Old Testament) views on homosexuality are Jesus' views.
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The Doctor
bobby do you not recall the new covenant which clearly meant the old one and all that came with it was done and meant to be forgotten.
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John Owens
The ACTUAL wording of the New Covenant says nothing whatsoever about doing away with ANY laws. You can read it yourself starting in Jeremiah 31:31. The myth that people INTO Paul's epistles is that it was all done away.
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John Owens
correction: The myth that people read INTO Paul's epistles...
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Rev J
Amen brother Bob. God and Jesus have no tolerance for evil at all. God and Jesus destroys evil in a heartbeat. The Gospel is not hard to follow. It is clear and tells all what is allowed by God and what is forbidden. It is when we get to doubting the message that we become confused and stumble into sin. Eve did not just up and decide to sin she was double talked by the snake oil salesman, the devil, who made her question what God had commanded them not to do. Just like kids who get everything their little hearts desire but still want that one thing refused to them. For evil to exceed all that is required is that good people sit and do nothing.
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Oh Mo
Yo, Bob! YOU are the problem.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Bob, other people and I have read that some men who wrote the Bible and put their words into "God's mouth" hated homosexuality and homosexuals because they said to stone homosexuals to death, but we have never read that God Himself hates homosexuality because neither they nor you spoke or speak for God, except in your own self-deluded and distorted "thinking"! Their advocating and carrying out stoning to death of gay people wasn't their "loving the sinner, but not the sin", since you can't kill people that you truly love, quite obviously (well, obviously to everyone, except them and you and your ilk today!). Homosexuality isn't a sin, except according to bigots and idiots, such as yourself, who put your own bigotry against it into "the mouth of God" and make Him just as stupid and narrow-minded as all of you are and disrespect Him by treating Him just like a big ventriloquist's dummy sitting on your laps and making Him say whatever you want Him to say!! Homosexuality is even found in the animal kingdom and so can't be unnatural or sinful because animals never do anything unnatural or sinful at all and Man is also part of the animal kingdom and so gayness isn't unnatural or a sin for people, either!!
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
What is "sexual immorality" and how does it apply to people who love each other???? Sodom??? Isn't that a mythical story from the Middle East? It also seems that christians have great difficulty "staying away from sin", however it is defined." How is the "devil" involved in all this??? Doesn't make sense, sorry.
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Rev J
Easy way to explain belief or faith in God: For those who have faith/belief in God no explanation is necessary. For those who do not have faith/belief in God no explanation is possible. The Bible is clear and not ambiguous. Homosexuality is an abhorrence before God. That is what the Christian Bible states. But again that is for Christian believers. If you are not of the faith then why do you care how we believe. Live your life for you. Only you have to answer to God for life and your sins not I. The real question is why are these Godless people forcing their lifestyle down the Christina's throat? The only answer is clear the devil can not abide with Christian folks and this last bastion of faithful believers in God must be taken down. Evil is as evil does. To believe or to not believe, that is the question. This is up to the individual because God has given everyone free will.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
My question to you is why did you become a ULC minister when the monastery supports the rights of LGBT to marry and upon your ordination, you agreed to our organization's social, spiritual focus? Your bible is not ta holy book for everyone here.
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Pastor Dave
Well said!
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Paul Buckley Sachs
We seem to spend a great deal of time talking about the "sin" of homosexuality. Jesus never mentions homosexuality. If it were that important something tells me he would've. Not much is said by you who preach against homosexual sin about teenagers having premarital sex and the number of unwed mothers continues to grow. The fathers of these children are rarely held responsible . I think that's sad.
Paul
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Gary
Paul you are right about fathers of unwed mothers and it is sad not to know your father and I and one of those kids that never knew my father but I had a step dad and He was my DAD and not all kids are blessed as I was . I want to give credit to who credit is due so thank you .. and now about romans 1:24 -32 and we all fight that battle of flesh In the book ok of Genesis 5:2 God made them male and female it's not my word but that of God and I am no-one to judge or throw stones I have enough of my own sins to answer for but by grace I am forgiven and Jesus did say turn from your sins and sin no more so that's why i'm on my knees asking for forgiveness and strength to sin no more ..
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Gary
we must go by what God says not what man injects , read the word and be honest with and what it truly says not what you want it to say, God gave each of us a choice so choose wisely
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Stephanie Willey
Some Christians and born Transgender too. It's time ya'll got over THAT too.
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Rev J
No they were not born Transgender as you claim. If you do not know the difference get hold of biology book and it will explain that difference. God made male and female. He did not make ??????????. You are one who is trying to create doubt and hence confusion just as satan did to Eve in the garden. I will pray for your soul.
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Stephanie Willey
Rev J, I once believed much like you, but I have studied human physiology, the brain, sexuality, gender, and the "self" for 18 years. All of the REAL scientific and medical studies and research performed over the leas 50 years makes it very clear that you ARE born with your core sexuality and sexual preferences, AND your core identity or gender. Sexuality and gender identity exist and reside in actual physical structures in the brain and are not determined by your genitalia. The Bible is a good book but it is not science and does not contain scientific and/or medical facts.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Ye,s Rev Willey, and for the first 6 weeks of gestation, only the X chromosome exists in all fetuses, XY develops after that. The male writers of the bible had no clue about biology, physiology, development or science in general.
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Anita Ganser
Amen again!!
They have proved some 35 plus years ago is your brain that determines who you are not the external.
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Gary Hynous
Stephanie, I believe that your take on the issue of sexual preferences is right on. There is, as you have stated, scientific fact backing up what you have said. Great clarification of yet another emotional topic.
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Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM
Rev J: Such an arrogant and disrespectful response to Rev WIlley. Shame on you.
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Timothy Wade
There are people born who are true hermaphrodites. Get hold of a biology book yourself! What is Gods plan concerning these? May they choose for themselves or must they believe this is some punishment leveled by God. Or perhaps they need someone like you to explain Gods will? I will pray harder for your soul. I bet you believe the bible is literally true and if so then I guess Isaiah 45: should be taken literally as well or do you interpret when it is convenient? Look up self righteousness in you KJV. Love you, brother.
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Carlton
Actually God has made ??????. There are some people who are born with ambiguous sex organs as hermaphrodites or intersexed. Honestly, God is a man-made construct and the Christian god is no different then any of the other gods that exist before and after the Christian version of God.
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Anita Ganser
Amen!
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Pastor Dave
But tolerance is needed by both sides. The old school mantra is “sticks and stones might break my bones but names will never hurt me!” I’m used to them by now. I’m referred to, not necessarily to my face as WASP, homophobic, mysogonist to name but a few. I acknowledge that Jesus came for sinners, not the righteous. And I am all for the teaching of “judge not lest ye be judged”. Yet society rejoices in the alternative to heterosexual lifestyle. Tell me, when did we get a great to be straight parade? Or have government leaders promote the need for children to have a traditional father and mother lifestyle? Speaking out this way I am not mysogonistic; simply a Christian living to Christian values I have learned since I was a child. A gift being denied more and more new age children. I do not judge the LGTBA movement. I have close friends that are homosexual. They have courage to tell society that they choose to be different. How many of the rest of us, with at least one skeleton in our closet, would be less outspoken if those skeletons were exposed? One can only live in Christ by not judging, but accepting the fact that any that are morally corrupt will have to answer to God who will sit in their final judgement. All we can do as Christians is to embrace all for what they are and lead by example, no matter what name we are branded with.
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The Doctor
since you mention learning these values since childhood Ill toss this great quote at you.
“We all know that any emotional bias — irrespective of truth or falsity — can be implanted by suggestion in the emotions of the young, hence the inherited traditions of an orthodox community are absolutely without evidential value…. If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences. With such an honest and inflexible openness to evidence, they could not fail to receive any real truth which might be manifesting itself around them. The fact that religionists do not follow this honourable course, but cheat at their game by invoking juvenile quasi-hypnosis, is enough to destroy their pretensions in my eyes even if their absurdity were not manifest in every other direction.”
H.P. Lovecraft
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Rev. John D. Partin
T'Keren Valmaz, here are more H.P. Lovecraft quotes for you and others here about religion, Republicans, and other matters: "As for the Republicans---how can one regard seriously a frightened, greedy, nostalgic huddle of tradesmen and lucky idlers who shut their eyes to history and science (and) steel their emotions against decent human sympathy". "The very fact that religions are not content to stand on their own feet, but insist on crippling or warping the flexible minds of children in their favour, forms a sufficient proof that there is no truth in them. If there were any truth in religion, it would be even more acceptable to a mature mind than to an infant mind---yet no mature mind ever accepts religion unless it has been crippled in infancy". "All I say is that I think that it is damned unlikely that anything like a central cosmic will, a spirit world, or an eternal survival of personality exist. They are the most preposterous and unjustified of all the guesses which can be made about the universe, and I am not enough of a hair-splitter to pretend that I don't regard them as arrant and negligible moonshine. In theory I am an agnostic, but pending the appearance of radical evidence I must be classsd, practically and provisionally, as an atheist".
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Rev. John D. Partin
Correction: I meant to write, in quoting Lovecraft, "I must be classed, practically and provisionally, as an atheist".
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Gary
I'm no one to cast stones I've lied to make me look better ,committed adultery lusted after the flesh and still battle it sexual immorality ,I've stolen cheated others I was a drunkard and used drugs, I tried to deny the very existence of God to justified my desires and actions ,I was a bad person inside while looking like a good person on the outside many people stand and point out the sins of others without looking at their own sins , it's not easy to turn from sin and I battle it ever day but God has forgiven me and ever day I'm on my knees thanking Him for giving me strength to see my sins and the strength to turn away from those sins I am a sinner saved by Grace ,God is willing to have a personal relationship with each one of us but it's our choice and our choices will determine where we will spend Eternity.....
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Gary
who am I to change the word of God
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Rev. John D. Partin
Gary, you are a human being, who can figure out a few things for yourself and use some or all of that intelligence that you say God gave you and not just swallow hook, line, and sinker everything that you are told "is from God" in the Bible or anywhere else and go on being a SUCKER!!! for the rest of your life!!! When "God" in the Bible is saying the same kinds of things that these narrow and small minded people back in ancient times and today said and say, which is more likely: that God actually agrees with small and narrow minded people or that they just made "Him agree with them" and put their words into His mouth, to "sanctify" and "justify" them and impose them on other people much easier? "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9). None of that is true, though, if God does, in fact, agree with small and narrow minded people and "thinks" down on their level and His ways are the same as their ways. Only true love and acceptance of people in the Bible or anywhere else really comes from God and anything else is from man. That is how we can tell the difference. Yes, the road that leads to life is narrow and few there be that find it, but that doesn't mean narrow or small minded or mean that only straight people will get into Heaven.
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bakoa
"if one had as many standard sized Rubik's Cubes as there are permutations, one could cover the Earth's surface 275 times." Now picture how many permutations can result from ne strand of DNA when two parents mate. The possibilities are endless and to say that being Gay or lesbian is not one of them would be as dumb and as ignorant as saying GMOs cause cancer or just as stupid as claiming that eating Gluten free is a health Choice.
Get over it, God created Gays and lesbians and claiming that they are an abomination is the abomination. To claim that a child or anyone can opt to be gay or a lesbian is an insult to God, right, because he created them too unless Satan is a creator, right?
What you outa do, is sit back in aw at the diversity of it all. Unless you want to claim an albino tiger is an abomination, or a child born with abirth defect is an abomination, there are no defect to life, all permutations of a wonderful creation.
No wonder religion is becoming extinct. Remember, Man wrote the Bible. You cannot change that Man wrote the Bible. Human, put Pen to paper and wrote the Bible in the same way that humans interpret it. Quote it as God's word all you want it does not change the reality that you are quoting other human beings writings.
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Gary
I for one believe that the Bible is the word of God and each of us has a free will that was given to us to either accept or to reject His word and that choice will determine where we will spend eternity and it doesn't matter if a person has made a decision to believe or not to believe each one of us will still answer to God even if you are anyone believes or not . I know that it doesn't matter to some but when they stand before God they will not have a excuse.
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Gary
I am glad that we can talk about beliefs and disbelief's and be respectful to other
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The Doctor
Actually gary you are being far from respectful to others. To do so would require you to acknowledge your belief as a personal thing and not as something true for all.
You need to learn how to say you have faith in your idea of god without speaking of those that do not share your faith as sinners but simply people with their own faith that is equally as valid as yours.
But just stay on your knees bent over for more of your gods love to be spread all over your back...if your lucky enough that he pulls out before finishing.
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Dark Gray
Gary,
Respectfully, I disagree. Would a loving God say to His creations, "I give you a choice: Accept this book that's obviously imperfect and full of contradictions as the Gospel Truth and follow its teachings to the letter or spend eternity in pain and torment."
Does that kind of choice even make sense? Why would hell even be an option?
Would you give your kids that choice, assuming you had the power? I assume you wouldn't. And if you wouldn't do that to your kid, how could you believe that God would do that to us, His beloved creations?
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Anita Ganser
I hear you but the problem is the revocation of civil rights. There is still the trend to push to end gay marriage and to not extend protections in work environments for this group of people.
They use the words in the Bible but not the context. Context for anti--gay is not the sex but the inability to bear children. In the day you had high death rates and to keep you culture/faith alive you needed kids. This is not an issue any longer.
They are using twisted scripture to give the stamp of approval to hate gays. By allowing them to marry we have moved them one attempt closer to removing soon in their lives.
Have a good day sir
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bakoa
Somewhere along the lines, Pederasty has become synonymous to Homosexuality. Lets define the two; The Pederasty or paederasty is a (usually erotic) homosexual relationship between an adult male and a pubescent or adolescent male (this has been extended to include all under age children not just male children) and classified by The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) is published by the American Psychiatric Association (APA) as a paraphilia or sexual deviance that has no cure even castration cannot cure this condition. Like sexual orientation, this love of boys is hard wired. We can all agree that this is detrimental to society and because children cannot make their own sexual decisions and cannot defend themselves, these pederasts are classified as sociopath for preying on the most vulnerable of our kind.
There is no cure for sociopathy, but death and perpetual isolation as these people like serial killers cannot help themselves and would do it again and again. This is humankind gone wrong for real.
Homosexuality on the other hand is a relationship between two cognizant individuals with full mental capacity to decide for themselves.
Unfortunately, French, however, "pédérastie" has been used as a synonym for homosexuality between adult males. A term purposefully adopted by religious people to designate homosexual in order to denigrate homosexuality.
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It is amazing to me that no one who was criticizing and calling names and insulting my intelligence, upbringing, literacy, etc. has apologized and admitted that Ben and Jennifer and the others are just wrong and the lack of evidence on the science side vindicates what I have said all along.
Not really amazing, but it would be a deafening silence if we were speaking instead of writing. No one even tried to refute my refutations. I don't want to gloat, though.
John Owens, it is amazing to me that you and other RIGHTISTS and Conservatives here, who are always telling liberals that they are "ungodly" and "godless" and telling everyone here that you are all "so much closer to God and righteousness" than we are, remain stuck in only considering some physiological and scientifically verifiable cause for homosexuality and never even think about a spiritual and transcendent cause for it (other than its being a "sin"). Then, when the physiological and scientifically verifiable means of someone's being born gay don't check out, you come up with "nobody could possibly be born gay". Everything that exists undeniably in this world isn't able to be put under a microscope or be otherwise scientifically verified, but that doesn't prove it to be untrue. Reincarnation perfectly explains people's feeling that they are women in men's bodies or men in women's bodies and even one person out of twins being gay, while the other twin isn't, because it is true and the gay twin was gay or a woman or man in the last life. Reincarnation isn't scientifically verifiable right now, either, but that doesn't prove it to be untrue or mean that it will never be scientifically verifiable. There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy (or science). Even the human devil Grigori Rasputin, when a doctor said to him that he had performed many operations in his career and had never discovered a soul, replied: "And how many dreams or imaginations or hopes have you discovered?". If even a devil can believe in something more than physical realities and causes for things, why can't such supposedly "far more godly than the rest of us" people as yourselves also see and admit to spiritual causes and justifications for human realities in this world? Dismissing everything that you don't like as "sin" is too convenient and oversimplistic! Your continuing to only consider physiological and scientifically verifiable causes for homosexuality and being convinced, when, of course, you don't find them, that "nobody is ever born gay", will be your forever barking up the wrong tree and ignoring the obvious solution that is right in front of your face!! What if, as I wrote to someone else here, homosexuality is God's natural means of population control and so being against it or thinking it "unnatural" is being against God Himself?!!