Faith leaders in Portland, Oregon say that the church isn’t doing enough to include the LGBTQ community – and at least one congregation is making small changes to make their LGBTQ parishioners feel more welcome.
It's no secret the queer community and traditional branches of Christianity haven't always seen eye to eye.
Faith groups were some of the primary opponents of legalizing same-sex marriage prior to the landmark Supreme Court case in 2015. And more recently, they have led the charge on removing books with LGBTQ themes from public school library shelves.
But some faith leaders think it doesn't have to be this way. They say the church can be an ally to the LGBTQ community, and now they're putting their money where their mouth is.
Siblings in Christ
Saint David of Wales Episcopal Church in Portland, Oregon is one church that’s trying to foster a more welcoming environment for queer Christians by making lots of little changes.
All bathrooms in the church are gender-neutral now, for example. Members of church leadership wear name tags that display their pronouns. And instead of using gendered language like “brothers in Christ,” they’re instead saying “siblings in Christ.”
They just want queer parishioners to know that “we're excited that you're here,” says associate rector AJ Buckley.
Through the (Gendered) Looking Glass
It’s all part of a wave of church leaders approaching gender and sexuality issues in scripture from a more understanding and open-minded angle.
But some are going further, arguing for an entire reorientation of how we view Christianity. Theologian Shannon TL Kearns argues that modern society has interpreted scripture largely through one perspective: that of “white, cisgender heterosexual men.”
That reading, they say, has turned the Bible’s complex explorations of gender into a simplified and narrow narrative.
"The world of gender in the Bible is much more complex than I was taught growing up as an evangelical," Kearns says. "We have women who are judges. We have men who spend their time in the kitchen. There are eunuchs, which were considered this kind of other third gender."
Biblical Double Take
Kearns says it’s time to reevaluate certain biblical texts. He points to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis, which has long been interpreted as anti-homosexuality.
But by shifting one’s perspective, it could just as easily be argued that the sin of Sodom wasn’t homosexuality – it was inhospitality (interestingly, a ULC Minister argued this very same point in a guest sermon earlier this year).
It’s all about refocusing your point of view, says Baptist minister Robyn Henderson-Espinoza. Once you view the Bible as “the story of a brown, Palestinian Jew who was executed by the Roman Empire," the narrative of Christianity becomes a struggle of oppressor vs oppressed, they say.
Members of this vanguard of inclusive faith leaders ask: couldn’t that also apply to the LGBTQ community of today?
What is your reaction?
191 comments
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Patricia Ihnat Hughes
Love one another. I myself have always known I'm a man trapped in a women's body. I'll be 60 years old soon and just accepted who I am ,not what others want me to be. As long as your worship isn't hurting someone else, no one has the right to judge and keep people from going to church or where ever you want to worship. We all bleed the same color blood. RED!!!!. Rev. Patricia Hughes aka Rev. Trish!!!
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Patricia Ihnat Hughes
I believe in the right to worship who I know in my soul is my Savior. People don't have the right to judge and keep others that GOD also created away from churches , schools PR work places. When someone points their finger at another, remember there's 3 fingers pointing back at you. With as hard as it is to love our neighbor sometimes it still is a direct order from Jesus Christ to due just that. We all bleed the same color blood. So did Jesus Christ.
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Lionheart
Is there any good evidence that the biblical Jesus, and the God he prayed too, was real, Patricia?
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Terry Williamson
never did understand how a small child can look at another small child and see someone they can play with, and yet as they get older they can no longer be near that person and why? because the grown up's around them put labels on them and so it is taught. If no one said anything about them the kids would stay friends for ever, but because of the labels they are forced to make a choice. It all come's down to us against them, because they are different they must be bad. In my circle of friends i have all kinds of people and i don't care what color they are how they look or who they love as long as there happy but i could never go to a church that would welcome a group of people because of some label, if they can't see people for who they are then they shouldn't have anyone come in. There is only prejudiced in the world because people only want to be around people like themselves and if you don't believe as they do they form there own little groups to try to make a sand to force someone else to believe as they do, while the other group is trying to force how they're wrong. It's just a vicious circle and it will never stop until everyone learn's to just let people be themselves and not try to force how someone else live's.
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Kenneth Dale Lovell-Southern
Good for them and yes I would attend their church most definitely
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Cheryl Pettijohn
I spent half of my summer break studying biblical texts and relation to LGBT issues for the express purpose of talking to my more conservatives siblings. I love my current church, and they are a loving as I could wish for, but if I left for some reason I would look for an inclusive environment.
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Linda Callagy
And He made them Male and Female. There are only two sexes and God doesn't make mistakes. Yes, Our Savior's command to us was to love one another as He loved us and we should love one another but we should not accept their lifestyle choices. We should use God's word, "The Bible" to teach them the truth. The Preacher of that church is leading his congregation straight to Hell if he is preaching anything other than the true word of God. May God bless all His children and lead them in the right direction, belief in Jesus Christ as their Savior so they might have Eternal life in Heaven with God.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
You are correct, God does not make mistakes. He didn't make a mistake when he created members of the LGBTQIA+ community. You judging them is you criticizing God for making them. You appear to be more Pharisee than Christlike.
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Linda Callagy
You failed to take into consideration my first words. God made them Male and Female. There are no other sexes. I am Christlike because I believe in what the Bible tells us, all of it - not just the parts you choose to pick out which serve your purpose. God loves us all and so do I, but I also believe in telling it like it is because I do love my brothers and sisters in Christ. God bless you.
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Lionheart
It would be really nice though if there was any real evidence to support any of the worlds gods wouldn’t it?
I always liked reading about the Vedas when I was growing up. They were always fun to read, which caused me to think outside the box, and there was no bloodshed, and threats.
Thanks for your comment, Linda.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, how about David and Goliath? Do you like that story too?
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Lionheart
George, that was a fun story. I always thought that the fictional Goliath would have made a great basketball player.
I also enjoyed reading about the fictional Unicorns, and the talking Ass, and Snake.
Personally, I found the incestuous stories a bit over-the-top for children. to read. Know what I mean?
Thanks for the question. 🤗
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, I do LOL That was also too much for me when I first came across it. Not to mention the man who cut his wife into pieces and spread them out to the Jewish tribe of Benjamin and the guy that vowed to sacrifice his daughter to win the battles, and then she asked to first go and say goodbye to her friends. Whoever said the Bible is boring probably never thought what a goof Hollywood movie these stories would make!
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Andrene Louise Murchison
No way
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Linda Callagy
God made them male and female. Those are the only two sexes, and God doesn't make mistakes. Our Savior's command to us was to love one another as He loved us. And that is what we should do, but loving each other does not mean agreeing with their lifestyle choices. It means encouraging them to do what is right with the true words of God, "The Bible". May God bless all His children.
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Pastor George Day
Amen :-)
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Michelle C Larkins
I don't have a church to work in, I mainly work through an online group that is Mainly Transgend ment & Women that are members of this group and want to keep up with their faith. I mainlt usr the pronouns they/them/theirs as to not to offend anyone who reads my posts. I also use the term "Higher Power" when referring to God, so as to not offend and of the other religions that might read my posts. As for Jesus, I refer to him and the "Child of the Higher Powers." I always sign off my post by saying that the "Higher Power Created us in Their Images, Therefore We are in them, as They are in Us!"
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Twillonda Bell
I am a member of LGBTQ, I shy away from visiting certain churches out of fear of being looked upon as a disgrace. I had a church in my area speak an entire sermon when i came the second day on the sin and how wrong it is. I prefer a church where I feel welcomed. I believe much of society doesn't realize how hard it is. Alot of us like myself have been sexually abused and mentally have changed, or those that are born feeling different. Our main goal should not to bash homesexuals, but to spread the word of God. We should be helping lost souls become saved. Helping our communities stand strong, and helping our neighbors and our neighbors children. God teaches love and Im sure he wouldnt love us any less
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Christopher Tracey Robertson
I'm a member of the BLACK Community (allegedly).
I can go to an All White Church in some small town in Mississippi. I'm sure everything will be just cozy.
I can go to an All White Pagan Meeting in some small USA town. I'm sure everything will just be cozy.
Helping our communities stand strong, and helping our neighbors and our neighbors children.
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Trace Antoni-Bost Cacace
Hooray! I hope this 'Good News' will soften & open the hearts of the folks who have forgotten the true words spoke by the Sheppard: “My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.”
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Mrknowitall
God loves everyone but....God explains that Homosexuality is a sin and he does not like it or sanctify it or want you to do it because it leads to demonic influence, whats so hard to understand ? This church knows nothing about Yahweh but knows how to support satan.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
Actually, if you do the research, you will understand than man added the word "homosexual" in the mid 1900's. This was used as a political tool. If your bible uses the word "homosexual" then it is a mistranslation.
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Pastor George Day
Cheryl Pettijohn, the actual word used in the original manuscripts is 'arsenokoitai.'
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Ginther, this church (ULC) supports all paths of life of those who seek the truth, as did Jesus. Remember how he treated the Samaritans, the Canaanites, and the Romans? I see where you are coming from, and while I agree on a doctrinal level, I disagree from a pastoral standpoint. Those who come across you may find you very patronizing and alienating.
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ronald
I think it will end badly for the church as they move away from the truth with out even knowing it government should not influence religion it make a divided stand people don't know it till it's to late.
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ronald
I think the church is moving away from Christianity with out even knowing it, the government is democrat in Oregon now and they do not believe in god or Christians will end badly for them
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Pastor George Day
Ronald, the very concept of Church is a Christian thing. The Church is the bride of Christ which we constitute as a body. As a Universalist, it is my opinion you are part of it.
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Ronald E Roberts
Our ( father) which art in Heaven. For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten ( son ) Mary, the (mother )of Jesus . Are all churches going to abolish the true meaning of the scripture ?? I'll turn away from any church that let's Satan lead the congregation.
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Amen
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Amen
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Amen
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Amen
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Amen
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Amen
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Amen
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Amen
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Lionheart
Satan, is only a made-up Christian thing, Ronald.
Edwin, did you mean…..Amen 🤭
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Christopher Tracey Robertson
Santa Clause Easter Bunny Leprechaun Great Pumpkin
These are definitely Real.
Balance is amazing.
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Pastor George Day
Bingo - Amen - Bingo!
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Jennifer Martini
I applaud this church. Our God is an awesome God and his Son taught us to LOVE EVERYONE. We have no right to judge or determine what is okay. That happens on the other side. In the meantime, spread love not hate. #ally.
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Jennifer Martini
I applaud this church. Whether or not anyone agrees with the concept, Jesus never turned anyone away. He loved them all. So should we. We are not placed on this Earth to be the judge and jury. We are here to honor our God by loving our neighbors. This means all of our neighbors. Not just the cis-gendered white neighbors.
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Lionheart
Don’t we all have a gender neutral bathroom in our home? 🤷🏼
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Robin Call
Yes but the bathrooms won’t be single bathrooms. They mean turning the multiple use bathrooms into unisex so both genders can use the bathrooms at the same time
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Richard Clark
Yes, I would attend. I love the Episcopalian Church. I'm straight but everyone should be accepted. We need more
Christian denominations that are Open and Affirming.
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Denesi Kathleen Ludwick-Barnes
I;m sorry but The Bible clear about this sttuff. they need the bible. Preach the word live by the 10 conmandments/
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Barry T Gabbard
No!!!!! it is a direct slander of the church and affront to God. the pastor is leading his followers straight to hell. you either stand for Jesus Christ and the word of God or you don't. you can bet they don't preach repentance of sins, just acceptance of them. its feel-good preachers who are only worried about making friends and filling their pockets with money, instead of showing their followers the narrow path to eternal life. such a shame these feel-good prosperity preachers are a direct affront to God as well. we are not called to make friends but to lead people to God and Jesus Christ through the words of God and Jesus Christ. all in that church should run from it--and stop giving money that is not saving them but leading them straight to hell!!!!!!
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Linda Callagy
You are correct in what you are saying. But we must love the sinner and yet hate the sin. The Lord's command to us is to love one another as He loved us. But loving them is teaching them the truth of God and the error of their ways so they might accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and gain eternal life in heaven with God. God bless you.
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Barry T Gabbard
correct we do love the sinner and not the sin. we do not condone any sin, nor do we advertise for it. repentance is key. if you hang out flags it looks like you condone the sin. why do that--like you said, church is open to all. we preach Gods word and repentance. why do you think there are so many gay Christians, God does not condone willful sin. yes if our brothers and sisters acknowledge the sin and sincerely are trying to end that sinful habit, they will be delivered in Gods time.
just like sinful cartoons for children--it is not ok just because its a cartoon--even the thought of sin is a sin.
no need to fly a pride flag on a church to invite gay people in. the sin is not accepted.
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Ricky
Comment removed by user.
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Pastor George Day
WOW, Barry T Gabbard! You are so full of Christian love!
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Barry T Gabbard
no!!! it is a direct affront to God and the doctrine of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!!
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Robin Call
I think this is ridiculous and discriminatory and a bit hypocritical ….Do people really want to be treated as equals. Or are they seeking attention? …To put pronouns on a name tag and making all bathrooms unisex is giving one group of people preferential treatment based on their sexual orientation while infringing on the rights of another group based on their sexual orientation…Now to add a unisex bathroom or adding a family room bathroom to the church is one thing but to make them all unisex and force people of the opposite sex to use the same bathroom and not allow them to choose which bathroom they prefer to use is another. Lawsuit waiting to happen and a decline in people attending the church will happen.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
You realize that making the bathrooms unisex actually does allow the members to choose where to pee?
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Charles Leroy Good II
I really don't understand the different pronoun name need, but really, why does it matter what others want to be named as. It's their prerogative and doesn't affect anyone else in the least besides adjusting to something different.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Just call everyone "they" and you are good.
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
Call me "they" and I will either think you mean to be insulting, are ignorant, or your kindergarten teacher failed miserably at teaching you basic English grammar.
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Rev. B
The rules of the English language change regularly. It is no longer incorrect to use "them" or "they" for a single individual. Took me forever to get used to it, but adapt or die, right?
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Reverend Andrew
I find it funny how so many people say that this is not god's will because the bible says so. I not that so called bible MANs interpretation of god's words. Could it not be that MAN left out some parts and changed parts they did not like?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Reverend Andrew Not only is it God's interpretation of god's words, but it's man's translation.... God did not speak in English. God didn't even speak to Joseph Smith in English for the Book of Mormon.
Rev are you familiar with the Oxyrhynchus Papyri? About 125 years ago archeologists found the "dump site" if you will at the time the Bible was being written. The latterly found thousands of drafts for what became the Bible. And yes, the drafts are different from what's in the Bible. The best example has to do the sign of the devil. The Bible has it as 666, but there in the Oxyrhynchus Papyri it's 666 and 660. We know what's in the Bible, but where did 660 come from? And should the Bible have 660? Another one of Man's changes in the Wicked Bible. Was it intentional? Or an accident?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, you must be reading quite a lot of fairy tales and science fiction books!
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Lionheart
Do you mean like the Bible, George 🤭
How dare you not believe in Fairies. The Holy Fairy ghost has bore witness to me that they are real. I can feel it in every fiber of my being. Faith in Fairies have changed my life since I was saved by the great Holy Gnome. . 🙏🏻
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, again how do you know I do not believe in fairy tales? Once again, you are assuming! Bingo!
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Ricky
The Christian Bible was written by fallible human beings who thought they were qualified to speak for God. And since then it's been translated, edited, purged, and undergone countless more translations.
How do we know if these man weren't bronze age crackpots who put their own beliefs and prejudices into it? They claimed to be "divinely inspired", whatever that means.
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Pastor George Day
Ricky, first, there is no such thing as a 'Christian' Bible. We have several manuscripts of what the Jewish people have traditionally considered inspired writ. We no longer have the originals, but no fundamental variations have been found in over 1 000 000 manuscripts. The same applies to the New Testament writ, which is nothing but the testimony of the eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. All reliable translations into modern day languages are carried out by linguistic scholars... who, just like medical doctors do in their field of erudition, have expertise in translating texts while maintaining the original meaning.
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Lionheart
Actually, George, the NT is not written testimony of eyewitnesses.
As far as we are aware, if there were any eyewitnesses, they never wrote anything. Pastors and Priests love to say exactly what you have mentioned, from the pulpit, causing the congregation to believe what they are being told. This is how indoctrination begins, George. Children believe it because they don’t yet have the intellect to think otherwise. That’s why it’s so easy to get them to believe in Santa Clause. Children will believe in much of what they are being told.
What we do have are writings by people who were not eyewitnesses of anything they wrote about, because they lived decades after those said events. They were writing from tales and stories handed down to them, but who knows how credible the stories actually were, especially with the discrepancies some of them had that differed from similar stories?
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, I know where you are coming from, since I am not starved of that strain of theology. I disagree, and that is that. I suggest you read 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel with an open mind, not necessarily to change your opinion, but to see why others see things differently. It is all explained there.
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Lionheart
It doesn’t matter, George, what anyone has written, in a vain attempt to support their indoctrinated beliefs. What matters is the fact that the NT was not written by anyone contemporary to the time of the said Jesus. We still have no idea what is true, and what isn’t.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, you are factually wrong. I wish I had the time to split the argument to go into details, but again I can only refer you to ‘The Case for Christ.’ If you continue your line of reasoning while disregarding the indicated evidence, you are guilty of contempt prior to investigation. In a court of law (which is the context of the book) your case would not win. Bingo!
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Finally, the church is starting to learn. Perhaps there's hope.
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JaZe
gender neutral is a misnomer,
sooner or later one of the sexes will assert itself, children can get confused,
they dont have the maturity to understand and pressure will only make matters worse
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Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN
I have really had it with this LGBT agenda. If you really want to go there, it's no secret that the Bible in Genesis states that in the beginning there was the void. The void is female. It is like a woman's womb. God used it and all of its possibilities to make everything, including male and females. The biggest problem is and always has been, other than the teachings of Yeshua that men and women, while considered by God to be equal, have never been treated as such. In many relugions women are treated worse tgan dirt and gays put to death. Yeshua knew that even in his time that there were people who preferred same sex over the opposite sex, yet there was a strong taboo against this. Let's look at the real person who was supposed to take over his church, Mary Magdalene, his wife. Peter hated her with a passion. Yeshua once said that a house divided cannot stand. He was not only talking about households, but he was talking about religions. I do not think that going to neutral pronouns, having separate bathrooms, and pandering to a small, but vocal, part of the population. Peter was in bed with Constantine who gave orders that the teachings that didn't make it in the Bible be destroyed. This included the library at Alexandria as well as most of the mobeztaries that were burned down and monks killed. Every so often, one would hear of the coming killing squads and would take their most sacred scrolls and put them into pottery jars that were sealed and hidden. They have been unearthing more and more of them. There's a small sect of Christians in Syria by the Israeli border. Bashir was trying to keep them from being killed. When Damascus fell, the fate of these people us unknown. I have people in my family who are gay and a transgendered aide. I can understand why they asked for rights, I understood and supported them. But I draw the lune at this neuteal gender crapola. If you want to make people feel welcolm, roll out the mat for everyone; itherwise you are discrimibating the rest of people that might be interested in joining ir continuing to come to church and since people aren't coming to church now, this will just be another reason why the older members will not people your seats. I do not have a church. I had a go around with the pastor of the church where I WAS going. I made a gorgeous expensive wreath for the church. I had explained my vision for the two empty window panes where they had the hymns were originally put. I went and the church and the beautiful wreath was gone. I had more flowers for the blank window panes. One was for the Alpha and the other the Omega. The flowers were picked for symbolism and color. Each one would then have an appropriate picture painted for the space inside. I guess that I was a little too late. She had someone put up decorations. If a pastor doesn't want to talk to you, which is part of the duties of a pastor is to listen to the people in their church, but evidently, I had to listen to hers. I understand that everyone hits their point where another thing is one too many. I was lead to that country church because it had something that I loved about it. The stained glass have various symbols associated with Christianity or the Bible. It has been a long time since I did confirmation classes. I was quite upset about that wreath, Justvas I gave someone hell for moving avpicture done by Donna Green that was on the wall before you went in the sanctuary and some yahoo put it in another place. I gave the idiot hell and it got moved back. I felt the same way about that wreath. At any rate, this is about inclusion or exclusion. By elevating one group over another never works. I have decided not to be part of that church again.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
Strange and historically inaccurate rambling discourse.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Yup, starting with Genesis. It's amazing all of the false and inaccurate information a Rev spews out. And this one claims to be an RN? This one certainly has poor bedside manor.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
paragraphs would be eminently helpful here
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN Not very Christian of you not to be accepting of others. God would not like that. You also have some learning to do. Every human starts life as a female. Depending on hormones and external environmental factors the developing fetus might become male or be somewhere in the middle between female and male. Heck God creates some of us super-females, super-males or super-super-females.
We know God created homosexuality as it is quite prevenient with the other creatures God created who live amongst us.
Instead of being one of those Christians that's full of hate towards your fellow humans, learn that God created and loves these intersex people equally. An who knows God may have created you as an intersex person. Many people don't know they are intersex until late in life. Be kind to your fellow human, they are no different than you in God's eyes. If you live is a small city you will find there are well over 100 intersex and many more LGBTQ people God brought into this world. You are not God, so stop being one and passing judgment on these good people.... Leave that up to God.
Something else to think about is how the chidden around you perceive your feelings. Do they respect you? Or see you as some crazy Christian who refuses to accept the world God created for you? Then know and are friends with intersex people and find them to be good people. Then the look at you as being a Christian who is full of hate and destines their friends.
Change your evil ways while you can before your judgment day with God.
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Barry T Gabbard
you should learn to forgive.
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Ricky
Sexual orientation and gender identity are not the same things.
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Pastor George Day
Ricky, no. But they are closely related. I am both homosexual and transgender. My same-sex attraction is but a symptom of my gender dysphoria.
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Colleen McAllister
Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN you first need to get over that wreath. It isn't about you and your vision for those windows.
This also is not the correct forumn for a sermon or history lesson.
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Pastor George Day
Colleen McAllister, more than a 'forum,' we ought to think of this platform as a congregation. This is where we meet and connect as a church, which is why it is called a monastery. So, yes, a sermon is appropriate here. We have a whole section where ordained members are invited to start a thread with their own sermons. Check the main page :-)
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Lionheart
Perhaps, George, we should treat this forum as a place for intellectual thought, using logic, and reason, to hone our intellect.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, this is a church that supports all paths of life. This place is where we connect as a church. Go figure :-)
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Lionheart
No it’s not, George.
Per Merriam-Webster:
A church is a building for public worship, especially Christian worship.
Not everyone here worships a supposed deity, and definitely not a Christian deity. Your statement would be just as erroneous if you’d said this is a Mosque, or a Synagog, or a Temple, or a Monastery, or a Coven, that supports all paths of life. Members here that are of the Islamic faith, or non-Abrahamic faiths, would possibly disagree with your comment.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, to begin with, this is called 'monastery.' This is also cyber-space, which is a feature many, including myself, nowadays prefer to face-to-face. As for Universalism, this is a non-mainstream theological and pastoral approach of Christianity, beginning from Quakerism, where respect for the 'inner light' (as the Society of Friends call it) leads to non-proselytism - meaning that anyone joining the 'church' main remain of their non-Christian faith. Naturally, I give you credit, it moves top religious diversity, but still beginning from Christianity as a united reality. Just check the matrix of Quakerism and ULC and you will see for yourself. Second, 'Church' is from the Greek 'Ecclesia' which mean 'assembly.' In early Christianity, churches used to meet in homes, in catacombs during Nero's persecution and then in basilicas after the Edict of Milan and the Constantinian era. From basilicas to the construction of buildings for church assemblies. The Reformation has allowed us to rethink back to the origin of the spread of the apostolic 'kerygma' and we view the church again as the people and not the building. My church meets on Zoom and social media, and yes, as Universal Life Church (mind you, it's called 'church!!) The monastery is in the form of a blog. Yet, this is how we connect as a church. Third, you may well want to read the description of ULC or watch some YouTube, or even speak to one of the moderators when they're on shift. The icon will appear at the bottom right corner on your screen. I did my research before adhering to ULC and after leaving my former denomination, and yes, I now consider ULC my main denomination - beside the Evangelical alliance through the Church I run. ULC is the same as Quakerism in its foundation, meaning that anyone can remain of the belief they choose. I support individual freedom in seeking the truth, so ULC is fine for me. I would question, though, why is a convinced atheist such as yourself (or might I say agnostic) so active here? Could it be that you are religious after all? You seem to be coming back to the same stream, all the time. In Italian we say: your tongue will keep tapping where your tooth aches! Yes, I am a native Italian, after all - one of my many faults :-)
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Lionheart
Heyyy….waddaya sayin’ here, Giorgio?🤌
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
I think you know LOL !
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Pastor George Day
... also, for anyone who would like to dare support an atmosphere of spirituality, we have the Desiderata meditation link at the bottom of each thread!
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Laurie G. Cleveland RN, you are part of this church now, aren't you? That is why I prefer online churches.... No one can move anything! LOL
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Douglas Robert Spindler
ABOUT TIME. As we know every human begins life female. And with 1 out of 200 people not being male or female it's time we give the these people a place to go to the bathroom. We also need to recognize God did not just create males and females, he also created super-females, super-super-females, super-males, people who are both male and female, people who are neither and over 20 other variations. As with penis and breast size God created people with a lot of variation when it comes to sex.
I'm still wafting for someone to tell me what characteristics make someone male or female. God didn't make it easy.
But it's time we respect ALL of God's chidden including the ones who have a penis, a vagina, both or neither.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
What is it about other people's sexuality, gender identity and pronoun choice(s) that seems to strike fear and loathing in what one might suppose are good, god feerin', cristan peeples? Why the hatred? And doesn't is say somewhere in that bibble that man can never know the mind of god. Yet here they are, presupposing to speak for god. Seems like the exact thing they are not suppose to be doing.
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David Cox
Ask God since you think you know more than him....what does holy mean?
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Dr. Father JJ, not exactly. Jesus said that those who see him see the Father. So, if you want to know the mind of God, look at Jesus. It is not about hatred. It is about clarity.
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Lionheart
George, we really don’t know what Jesus said. If you really want clarity, try using logic, reason, and critical thought. Use the intellect you were born with and get out of your indoctrination.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@James Michael Fish The truth is every human begins life as a female. Since you know about chromosomes you do realize there are 29 different combinations for human sex chromosomes, don't you?
They range from people who are male and female as have breasts, a vagina, overlies, a penis, and balls to someone who is neither male or female. Then God created super males, super females and super-super females. And God has created many other variations. In fact 1 in 200 of us have some sex difference. You might be one. And you certainly know of people who are not male or female.
Care to say what characteristics make someone male or female?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, your comment is misleading. It takes sperm (produced by men) and ovaries (in women's bodies) to preserve life on the planet. This is the norm. This is normal. Then, as a transgender biological man, I will agree with you, there are exceptions. But the exceptions do not make the norm.
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Lionheart
Just to let you know, your comments too, in this forum, are often very misleading, tainted by indoctrinated thoughts and beliefs, with no demonstrable evidence to support them.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day it’s nice to know we can agree at times. Yes I agree with you for humans, in nature it is a sperm and egg that need to merge to produce a new life. Most of the time the egg comes from the women and the sperm comes from a man, but not always. This is where things get tricky since some people have ovaries and testicles. It’s going to depend on how their plumbing is connected or the physiology. You are right there are exceptions. And it is these exceptions where show to us God the Bible is wrong. God did no create man an women, God created exceptions. Why God left these out of the Bible is anyone’s guess. But what we do know is there are 25 exceptions so far. We can’t say the exceptions don’t make the norm. They might sometime in the future, we call that evolution. But for now, I agree with you right now it is the norm. Not sure if you are aware, but there is a women who has two vaginas and two uteruses. Over time it could be that having two vaginas and uteruses might have an advantage over having just one. Should this happen the norm would be women having two vaginas and uteruses and not just one.
You seem like a very smart person. Spend some time and take a university course on human development and human genetics. It’s absolutely fascinating what we know. We know so much about life we have been successful in playing God and create new synthetic life forms. Now a group of scientists has taken this a bit to far and played God with human life. There were able to successfully manipulate and alter human genes to create a new human life that would not have existed otherwise. Not sure about you, but this is very exciting work. It was some 70 years ago we found the secret of life, DNA. And in the 70 years that followed we figured DNA’s code. And in doing so we now now that every living orgasm that is alive today or that has ever been uses the exact same DNA code. From the simplest bacteria, every plant animal and every human use the same DNA code.-
Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, I honor your scientific interest, but I encourage you to remain rooted in reality. As for the Bible, you are factually wrong. It does mention eunuchs, and the fact that God loves them. Eunuchs was an umbrella term to encompass all those with anomalies. They could be so by birth, or by human intervention. Jesus encourages some to be eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom. Go figure!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day If I'm factually wrong why is it no one else shares in your reality? You don't seem to know the definitions of words which are in common use including a word used to describe you.
Look up the word eunuch? It's similar to castrati but there is a difference. If your reality is shared by everyone know the difference. But then again maybe you are living in a trans reality. Have you ever considered going through a trans-cis isomerism?
Why not leave your personal reality and join in the one shared by the rest of the world?
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Pastor George Day
trans-cis isomerism? I love how language fast evolves! Thank you for your input, Douglas! :-)
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Lionheart
George, I encourage you to root yourself in reality, and stop clinging to things that have no demonstrable evidence if proof.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, thanks for your advice. I have been diagnosed with peace of mind despite my troubled background. I think I'm doing well where I'm at. On the other hand, I also encourage you in your search for truth. Remember, there's much more beyond your ability to understand :-)
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Lionheart
I’m always seeking for truth using logic, reason, and critical thought.
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Daniel Gray
And when you have a guy walk into a bathroom thats supposed to be for women and the woman goes nuts, or a woman walks into a bathroom intended for males and there are young boys in there, get ready for the lawsuits.
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Ricky
There have been no credible reports of bathroom predators pretending to be transgender to get access to children. None.
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Daniel Gray
No credible reports? to who? Check with the NYPD and the Detroit PD as well as chicago PD and Seattle PD and LAPD and they will show you these reports, or you could just ask the FBI Crime Report which has over 4 pages of reports of this happening from the different police agencies from all over them US. Must be magic in your home to have your myths destroyed so easily, the same myths you try and use as your beliefs.
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Pastor George Day
Those using gendered bathrooms have somehow transitioned either through hormones or socially.
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Rev Mark D
Tabernacle Wha?
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Pastor Jim
Truth will stand the test of time and chromosomes don't lie. We can entertain imaginings and be supportive of narratives, but I cannot allow myself to turn my back on fact and proven truths. What will truth reveal when the narratives of those who created and believed in them no longer exist?
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Marcella J Schieffelin
Great that general public and people in authority and power (including clergy) are becoming more curious and looking within to be aware of any biases and hopefully taking actionable steps to be inclusive, welcoming, and truly equitable. There is still a very long way to go.
I am curious as to the comment made in the article stating 'Once you view the Bible as “the story of a brown, Palestinian Jew who was executed by the Roman Empire," the narrative of Christianity becomes a struggle of oppressor vs oppressed, they say.' I'm not sure exactly what Palestinian Jew is referring to other than Jesus? If this was the intention, is that a misleading narrative as there is no such country at that time called Palestine?
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Tom
The region was referred to as Palestine as early as 5th century BCE even though it wasn't a country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Etymology
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Pastor George Day
Palestine = Philistines! I thought King David used to fight them... am I wrong? This was quite some time ago!
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Richard Darwin Richards
Every flag but the American flag is flown there. That figures...
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Tom
Where? Portland? There's American flags flying all over the city.
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Jimmy Moon
You can change all you want, but the BIBLE is still the BIBLE. If it goes with the will of man and NOT the will of GOD, you better be ready for the consequences. Calling a male a woman just won't fly.
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Tom
How do you know what you believe is the will of God and not the will of the men who wrote the Bible? What if they were the ones who changed God's message to demonize homosexuality, and God's true message all along was to be accepting of people as they are?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Tom Regardless what it says in the Bible every human begins life as a female.
Please tell us what characteristics make a person a man or a women. What do you call a person (and there are many of God's chidden) who have breasts, a penis, a vagina and balls?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ What do you call a person (and there are many of God's chidden) who have breasts, a penis, a vagina and balls?”
Oooh! Oooh! (Raises hand)
Whatever they ask you to call them?
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, you may be very smart, but the medical classification is 'intersex,' not 'whatever they want you to call them.'
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Ricky
You have the right to practice your religion as you see fit, but you don't have a right to make other people to practice it too.
Not everyone believes as you do. Worship in your own way and leave other people alone.
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Pastor George Day
Ricky, that's not the Great Commission command of Christ in Matthew 28.
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Lionheart
George, with the greatest of respect….who cares? You are merely saying things you have been taught. It’s called indoctrination.
It really doesn’t matter what it says in your book. Who knows if any if it is true? Ministers will say it is…. from the pulpit. I know…..I’ve been there and done it. I have been like you currently are. I regret it deeply. 😢
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Richard Darwin Richards
Amen!!!!
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Laura McAllister
all I can think while I was reading this is, God loves all people if God loves all human’s what makes humans know better than God.
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flugo
'luster': Whoops! I don't know what god to which you're referring, but the God of the Bible hates . .. . . groups of people as well as their sins!
Psalm 10:31, 5:5, 11:5, 7:11. and Proverbs 6:19 are representative of many. Also, in Romans 1:18 and John 3:36 God's holy wrath is abiding, now hovering over the evil doers, the un-repentant.
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Tom
Sounds like a pretty nasty person, that God. I'll kindly pass and take my chances.
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Pastor George Day
flugo, I pray you may find peace in Christ :-)
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Lionheart
So, did your god love all those men, women, and children he drowned? Just asking, for those children of the first born that he also killed.
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Christopher Tracey Robertson
Yes.
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Lionheart
If that’s the case, he’s obviously in the same category as the uncaring maniac, Jeffery Dahmer. I guess he must have thoroughly enjoyed watching young children, and possibly pregnant women, drown. 🤷🏼
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, this is the mystery of predestination, that does not affect free will. I am sure you are better than you want to make us think. You know about this.
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Lionheart
George, predestination is a fallacy, and construct of mankind in a vain attempt to try and put some sort of logic into why any mythical deity would do what it did, especially when it comes to genocide.
It is the same with all members and supporters of all of the worlds deities, even those that you don’t believe in.
The real mystery is why people of the world will believe in a deity, with no factual evidence to back up the reality of its existence.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, you may have a world view from an Agnostic perspective, which I respect. But by now you already know that faith is not based on evidence. I can share with you my experience and what Christ did for me. I doubt you can do the same about Agnosticism. But, again, this is based on the very nature of our different approaches, and both are real to our experience. Given that most religions believe there is as God, or Higher Power, it is reasonable to believe that this Higher Power is beyond our perception of time - also because perceptions of time vary in the universe. This is evidence that time, as we know it, is a creation of a Higher Intelligence. This very fact proves the concept of 'predestination.' In Calvinistic tradition, as you know, we do not believe that predestination affects our free will. So those who carried out genocides, for instance, are responsible for their own actions. Predestination is a process that takes place in context, a context God knows from eternity, and which he can drive in his sovereignty. I know you disagree. But here is the beauty. We can share our views and agree to disagree :-)
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Lionheart
I understand your comments, George, but the argument you make is only built upon the ever moving quicksand of faith, that you have now determined to be true, with no demonstrable evidence to prove it, and you have convinced yourself you truth is built in a rock, which it obviously isn’t, otherwise there would only be one faith on earth. I understand you firmly believe your god is the right one. So does everyone else.
The logic (if that’s what you want to call it) of your faith is exactly the same that all other people use of all other faiths, all claiming their faith has the truth. All claim their faith has helped them in their lives. Mormons claim they have the truth, so do Islamists, as do JW’s, Catholics, etc.
Those who believe in the flat earth, Sasquatch, Fairies, the Loch Ness Monster, Santa Clause etc., possibly have a bit more evidence than what you have, but mostly, they rely on faith, or some anecdotal belief system. 🤷🏼
As for me, I will continue to have a world view, as you put it, because for me, the world view is testable reality.
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Pastor George Day
Hey Lionheart, who said Santa Clause and Nessy (the Loch Ness creature) do not exist? Did you ask my opinion, or did you simply assume?
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Lionheart
Please don’t tell me Santa Clause doesn’t exist, George. 😱
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Yes, I believe Santa & Nessy are both real. Now, if interested, we can open a discussion :-)
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Lionheart
I prefer to think Fairy’s might be real 🤗
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well if "gender-neutral" bathrooms actually means a bathroom that is single use and "all gender", that's not really a problem or all that a revolutionary.
In any context the pronoun thing is silly and the product of an extensive amount of some weird mental gymnastics.
Someone will have to give me the reference because I apparently missed the part in Genesis where after God created male and female he went on to create the plethora of subdivisions of that we now have.
Subdivisions which, for some bizarre reason, nobody in humanity was able to come up with or recognize on any scale for more than 5,000 years before the late 20th century of the Common Era.
Considering the way things are going I'm sure in something less than 100 years from now Jesus will commonly be depicted wearing a crop top, hot pants and go-go boots
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. MichaelRS If you believe God only made male and female you have a lot of learning to do. It's been well documented since the time of Jesus there God made more than just males and females. There are people who are both male a female and people who are neither. There are super females, super males and super-super females but no super-super males.
I hope you know every human begins life as a female. When God created you, you were a female. And with 1 out of every 200 live births resulting in a person has a sexual difference I'm sure you know many of these people. And who knows, you might even be one.
Can you tell me what characteristics makes someone male or female? It's not in Genesis, and God never told us.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ It's been well documented since the time of Jesus there God made more than just males and females”
Nope, not true at all. However, you might be right with….
“ It's been well documented since the time of Jesus there were more than just males and females”
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Edwin Merle Waltz
Show me real documentation
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Don’t ask me, ask D. Spindler.
What I essentially said is that there is no documentation that a deity made man. BUT if ‘god’ was left out of his statement he MIGHT be right.
Apparently trans individuals were around since the times of the Native Indians of the United States. No, I can’t show you the documentation but if you’re interested run along and find it.
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Pastor George Day
The Bible speaks about eunuchs. This was inclusive of what today we call LGBT.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
No, as usual, you are wrong. A eunuch is a man that has been castrated solely for the purpose of preventing him from having sex with the women that he was charged with taken care of.Although your comment makes one wonder if there were men, actually boys, that grew up saying “me next! Me next!”
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, I am not sure where you get your information from, but I study Church History, Theology of the Body, and Biblical Theology. Believe me, there is more to it than you think you know. Israel was obsessed with procreation. Barren women were considered a curse. Men who had no children were a reason for contempt. Eunuchs were viewed in this context, i.e., whoever was unable to procreate. Jesus said some were born eunuchs, some were made eunuchs... but even more, his last line was truly revolutionary: some chose celibacy for the kingdom (made themselves eunuchs). How about to enroll in a Theology course, or just let those who know better teach you the facts?
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Lionheart
Dr. Zerpersande is correct, George.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, I am afraid he is not. LOL, I study this stuff as an accredited scholar. Let the doctors be doctors, please :-)
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Lionheart
I too study “this stuff” George, and am an accredited scholar, in science, which is based on logic, reason, and critical thought. Systems, relying only on “belief” play no part in science and truth.
Everything that has merit and truth is based on testable evidence. Your computer, George, does not run on faith, it runs on science.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, nor does your present knowledge stand with no history. The word eunuch in biblical context has several meanings, not only one referring to castration. As Jesus said, whoever you believe him to be, some are born that way. As you probably are aware, language evolves on varied factors, one being how we are given to understand ourselves and the surroundings. In recent years the term LGBT, which was used to embrace all sexual differences, has also been stretched into non-binary and all sorts of new terminology. So, there you go... a bit confusing. I still prefer eunuch. It's easier, don't you think? If not, we can peacefully agree to disagree.
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Lionheart
How does anyone know what Jesus ever really said, assuming he was real? 🤭
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
It was recorded by eyewitnesses.
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Lionheart
The historians writings that make up the NT never met those they wrote about because they hadn’t been born. So everything is here-say.
It’s very interesting that contemporary historians of the time Jesus was supposed to have been alive never wrote about him. Weird….right?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
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Troels Qvist
Thats it there are only 2 sexes. Exept in very rare cases where someone is a hermaphrodite...whatever People chose is another discussion...finito
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Pastor George Day
Troels Qvist, the term hermaphrodite is derogatory. The medical terminology is intersex.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Keep in mind that ‘ hermaphrodite’ is not a ‘derogatory’ but a scientific term.
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Pastor George Day
Nope, it is not. Intersex is a scientific term. To call an intersex person hermaphrodite is received the same was as calling a gay man a queer or a transgender person a tranny. It is offensive.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ Though the two terms, hermaphrodite and intersex are used synonymously in the last century, intersex is nowadays preferred over hermaphrodite.”
Just because one of them is currently ‘preferred’ doesn’t make the other any less correct. And whether or not it is considered ‘derogatory’ likely doesn’t hold your opinion as the fulcrum around which the decision is made.
You said you were an ‘accredited author’. Is that the opinion of others or is this another of your personal fulcrums?
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, first, if you want to quote me, quote me well. I never said I'm an accredited author. I'm a scholar, gaining accreditation in Theology of the Body and pastoral ministry. Second, I minister to intersex people among others, and just about to be introduced, after thorough training, into prison ministry, where sexual issues are rampant. This is my field of expertise, as you can check on my website. Again, let the professionals be professionals, and just focus on your area of expertise. https://theologyofthebody.webador.co.uk/same-sex-attraction
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David Cox
You are a very troubled and very confused individual. You need to study the Bible more and talk to God more since you think you know more than him
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Rev. MichaelRS
There are also people that are born with six fingers on each hand or two heads on one body (search: Brittany and Abby Hensel) or what appear to be two exterior sets of genitalia. (Although with the latter I've never heard of either one of the sets actually being functional when it comes to reproduction).
But these are the outliers. The unfortunate mistakes of nature that have for many many centuries fallen under the category of Birth Defects.
In addition, 2000 years from now, when some archaeologists are digging up our bones, they are going to classify those remains as either male or female. They are not going to know or care what's been going on in somebody's head that in life they declared themselves to be something other than.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. MichaelRS Rev, please do some research about the topic before spewing out false information. Birth defects are part of the evolutionary process which has been going on for tens of millions or years. Intersex is NOT a birth defect, Not sure where you learned it was. I would not consider 1 in 200 to be outliers. That's 100 people in a small city. Rev, you do know that you as do all humans begin life as a female.
You might be one of the people who have these sex differences. Might you have large breasts, a penis and ovaries? Many "men" don't find out until late in life. Have you checked with your doctor?Rev, Please learn more the topic. 2,000 years from now, archaeologists will find human remains and be able to easily to identify if the bones they found where that of someone who was not male of female. Just as someone might have six fingers or two heads, there are characteristics which can be found in the shape of bones of someone who is in the spectrum between male and female or neither. If you really want to know try reading about Ullrich-Turner and Klinefelter syndromes. Each one causes unique and identifiable changes to the skeleton which archologies would be able to identify 10,000 years from now. Archologies are finding skeletons at the time of Jesus which are have these changes which tells us intersex humans is nothing new.
Rev, not sure if you teach young people what you are saying. But if you do, this is stuff they have learned in school, from their friends and off the Internet. When you tell them God only created males and females they know you are lying or are ill-informed and think of you as one of those crazy Christians that's having a difficult accepting what we are seeing in the world we live. It's like evolution, every kid knows it's real because we use DNA to solve crimes.
God gave you a brain and the ability read and learn. Try giving what God gave you to work,
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Rev. MichaelRS
I don't give credence to such fallacies and social media comment sections are a difficult place to have back and forth "gotcha" conversations. Plus, not being a scientist, my explanations tend to be extremely verbose.
For a more concise explanation I refer you to the works of Dr. DEBRA SOH. Although I doubt you're going to get her book "The End of Gender - Debunking Mythd About Sex and Gender in Our Society".
Therefore I suggest you search "Debra Soh on gender" on YouTube for a variety of lectures and panel discussions and debates on the subject.
What you are talking about is anomalies, NOT evolution, anymore than any other birth defect is.
That does not mean that we do not have compassion for such people or that we treat them unfairly in society. However that does not mean it is an evolutionary norm that is the future of humanity
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. MichaelRS As per your request I did look at Dr. Debra Soh on YouTube and at her book. Looking on YouTube just about all of her interviews are with the podcaster Joe Rogan. Isn't Joe Rogan that comedian, actor, and entertainer who is making millions for dollars promoting highly controversial topics for ratings?
One has to ask why Dr. Soh only interviews are with an interviewer who has an agenda and goal is to make money and not educate.
Have you read Dr. Soh's book? She claims it's based on science and scientific research. If it is there so little science? Count the number of references to scientific studies, there are less than a handful. But what the book is full of is her opinions. You say you are not a scientist, but I hope you do know the difference between an opinion and science. In her book she is expressing her opinion and beliefs not the science. She intentionally or unintentionally out of ignorance leaves out credible scientific research which contradicts her beliefs.
You say your a not a scientist yet you use words used in science which have very precise meanings. But here's the problem, you are using the words incorrectly. Birth anomalies are birth defects which is the evolutionary process. Not sure why you say it isn't when what you are seeing is evolution in action.
I encourage you to learn more about the science of evolution and sex. What God created is just truly incredible and amazing. God has everyone of us start life as a female. Then based on God's chemicals (hormones) determines how male we become. God has given us the tools and the wisdom to understand how we become male, remain female, are somewhere in between, are both are neither.
The more you learn about this process the more interesting it is. It doesn't look like Dr. Soh is familiar with this or has any knowledge of this process which is why she doesn't talk about it. Instead she shares what she thinks is going on.
Rev human sex development is something we have been researching for over 50 years and have a good understanding of. Take some time to lean about what we know before passing judgement based on one person's beliefs.
Rev. Have you ever talked to someone who is intersexed? Do you know what life is like for them? PLEASE take some time to learn what life has been like for God's intersex people. It's probably not what you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vaq4Ij0qmog&t=129s&ab_channel=TEDxTalks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28Ip-STEPKU&ab_channel=TEDxTalks
https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_what_i_ve_learned_from_having_balls
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Rev. MichaelRS
That is not all Dr so interviews with and she has done debate panels with people on the other side if you look through the YouTubes. But very few leftist media platforms are going to give her a voice.
I have not seen those particular speakers you referenced but I have seen enough like them to know that what they are promoting as the norm is simply mental illness they are trying to mainstream for God knows why.
Birth defects are not evolution Somebody like Abigail and Brittany Hensel (easily searchable) is not a sign of the future for the human race.
As far as gender identity goes I have compassion for such people that have such an illness, but I will not reinforce it, anymore and then I would reinforce the views of somebody who had anorexia.
If a 5'6" girl is starving herself down to 80 lb because when she looks in the mirror she thinks she sees a fat person looking back at her, I'm pretty sure the doctors are not going to give her "slender affirming care" by saying she looks beautiful and healthy and then give her a membership in Weight Watchers.
Why? Because the doctors, and we as a society, as rational human beings that can view the matter objectively know what she is feeling in her head is not right.
I am simply not limber enough to go through those kinds of mental gymnastics that are needed to subscribe to gender ideology
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. MichaelRS I though we were having an intelligent thoughtful discussion. You asked me to look at the Dr's book and YouTube videos, which I did. But then when I provide two short videos you can't give me courtesy to take a look? They are God's creation and tell what life is like to having breasts, ovaries, a vagina and testicles. Sad you don't want to listen to God's children.
If you think they are the future of the human race you are not understanding the difference between a birth defect and a genetic trait which is passed to a future generation. Birth defects which are the result of a genetic change most certainly can be passed to future generations. Think about it, how can them not be? This is called evolution and is why you are not exactly like your parents.
How can you call someone who is born with breasts, ovaries, a vagina and testicles an illness? Exactly what illness do they have? Don't you think it is society that has the illness just because they are different? This is the way God made them, so why do God's other children attack them just because God made them different? Don't you think God is disappointed when so many of his children have distain for one of his children?
I would ask you to watch the videos and listen to God's children. They are not sick or ill. You can't get sick from them. Why not become enlightened about God's creation and listen God's children and the message they are bringing from God to you?
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Rev. MichaelRS
I will do you the courtesy of looking at your videos and if I have any particular opinion on them other than what I've already stated I will come at further.
But as far as I'm concerned they remain birth defects that are not normal part of human development. No less so than those other genetic traits that allow other abnormalities to be passed on from one generation to the next. It is not NORMAL human development.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. MichaelRS I hope you are a true to your word an listen to what life is like having not being female, male but both. These are God's children and God gave them the strength to share their life's story with you.
Birth defects happen for a wide verity of reasons. It was some 60 years ago we discovered the instructions for life. In those 60 years we have learned so much about how life is created and changes over generations. One has to marvel at the God's creation and how life evolves with every generation. And we have a religious monk to that for unlocking the mystery of heredity and evolution.
God causes Birth defects all of the time. If these defects, are in our genetic code they are passed on to future generations. You body has many of those "birth defects" you can see today. All you have to do is look. We have to thank God for giving us the knowledge and tools to understand life. We understand it so well, not only can we change life, we have been able to create it.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. MichaelRS, how loving your approach is! Certainly, proper minister!
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Rev. MichaelRS
John 4:24. God is a spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
I have plenty of compassion and sympathy for people who are suffering from these various delusions. That does not mean as a pastor I need to validate them.
How about this; How about we start validating people who have anorexia by giving them diet pills and a membership in Weight Watchers?
We don't do that because we, as rational people on the outside looking in, know that their delusion of being overweight is not real. Get it?
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Pastor George Day
I couldn't agree more, Douglas Robert Spindler!
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Barry T Gabbard
there are only 2 genders, male and female as we learn in Gensis. (Yes, a very very few are born with two sets) anything else is just a satanic fantasy.
no all are called to be wed. if you claim anything else, you definitely do not preach the word of God and Jesus Christ.
you are a feel-good prosperity preacher who does not care about the souls of their followers, as we know the path to eternal life is narrow and most don't find it, but the road to hell is a wide and broad path that most follow, led by weak preachers and false prophets who don't preach the word directly from the bible!!
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Pastor George Day
Barry T Gabbard, I am medically diagnosed as transgender. Am I a 'satanic' fantasy?
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Lionheart
George, you are what you are. Accept it, and move on with your life. Life is short, enjoy it.
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, Bingo!
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Rev. MichaelRS
People are "medically diagnosed" with all sorts of aberrations from physical deformities to mental illnesses.
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, for of all, improve your grammar so we can better understand your comments. Second, what Rev. MichaelRS referred to was transgenderism. Unlike intersex, transgenderism is not biological. It is a condition of the mind. So yes, even though one may, thanks to nowadays advanced medical treatments, be able to change their gender/sex, biologically they will never be able to amend their DNA. This means, as Rev. MichaelRS, that their bones will always indicate the biological sex. The same cannot be said for intersex people because their condition is not mental but biological. Mind you... before you label me as 'transphobic,' I am transgender myself!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day How can you separate the brain which is biological from the rest of the body? The mind is under biological control. Tell me this, is your sexual partner preference based on your biology or your mind?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, I am simply following what medicine defines. My transgender condition is mental, my biology is male. Intersex people are so because they biologically have characteristics of both sexes. I thought you were intelligent enough to get that far :-)
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day. You are terrible wrong. A transgender person someone who lives the sex other than what they were assigned at birth. It can be mental, but doesn’t have to be. Can be hormonal, genetic, physiological/anatomical. It really comes down the opinion of the person filling out the birth certificate to state whether the newborn is male or female. And they typically do that by making a visual observation. If you know anything about human development you know everyone begins life as a female and it’s the male hormones which flips the female to a male. Again if you have studied human development you know that there can be issues with the hormone levels which suppresses or delays the male characteristics. At birth males are mistaken for females. But the doc checks the female box at birth. You should know trans is a paperwork issue where cis where you are on the scale from having all the characteristics of a female vs. all of the characteristics of being male. CIS folks are somewhere between those to points with some being half female and half male. But then again you have people who are neither and others who are super female or super-super-female. And their can be super males but so far we have never found super-super males. You might what to study this it’s so interesting. If you do, you will find humans are just not male or female as God said in the Bible. Not sure how God screwed this one up, as God created there are 25 other sex variants. For someone who is trans and working with trans folks how is it you don’t know any of this?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, you sound like a broken record or someone who has learnt a litany by heart. Believe what you like. I have no time for this.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day Just how does a broken record sound? If you mean Christians who repeats false statements over and over while ignoring the facts the rest of the world sees, I get what you are talking about. I keep hearing of people who as saying they are trans and thinking it's a mental issue. Yup, I know what you are talking about.
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, in fact, I am the one diagnosed as 'transgender' by a medical professional, not you. Who should I trust? The NHS partitioner, or one who struggles even spelling the word 'raped'? Your thoughts for consideration :-)
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
‘…..for of all, improve your grammar….’
Good one, Mr. Pot
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Christopher Tracey Robertson
48 years as a Black Man and now I can Identify as a White Woman. None of you can question it. I can use any bathroom I want. Since I'm a White Woman now, I can go to the Nicest Spas. Gender is fluid and what I choose as my Identity is REALITY!
This indeed is Progress!
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Pastor George Day
Christopher Tracey Robertson, no it is not. It is, from your parody, a mockery of the real dilemma. This is an issue that cuts to the very core of people's existence... nothing really to mock about! Shame on you!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Although, in my opinion, there are ‘identity issues’, I feel that it smacks of being a trendy, faddish ‘thing to do’. Knock yourself out though. Personally I identify as an irresistibly sexy, young, rich athlete. But facts seem to indicate otherwise.
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Rodney Knight
Good for them it makes me happy to see churches doing this spearing thier arms in inclusion of all people Thank You for you courage and faith in God
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Linda D Thacker
This. Yes.
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Twillonda Bell
I agree. Glad you feel the same. I am a LGBTQ member. It is so hard to go to church and feel truly welcomed. I would rather us focus on helping each other and spreading the word of God and helping people become saved.
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Finally, if we could live the good book instead of thinking it gives us the right to judge. Everyone should feel and be welcome in God's house. We all have our own personal relationship with our Lord and Savior. Who has ever thought that any of us could stand and judge anyone. We don't walk in their shoes, no one walks in mine or yours. The only one who has the ability to see in to our hearts, and know what we been through or feel what our trials have made us feel is our Lord and Savior. I support everyone who has a personal relationship with Our Savior no matter sex, gender, sexual orientation. Let's quit playing Judge and Jury, and love one another. Amen...
We should all be able to love one another without having to believe in mythical tales, written by people who never met the people they wrote about.
As to whether there ever really was a Jesus, or even a god that he worshipped, if he was real, it remains to be conjecture. Interesting stories though. Personally, I always preferred reading the Upanishads. I never liked reading about all the hate, bloodshed, and threats in the bible, if you don’t believe it.
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