New York City is currently the epicenter of the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States, with more than 36,000 confirmed cases and nearly 800 deaths. The shocking death toll caused New York Governor Andrew Cuomo to take a step mayors and governors across the country are doing: implore citizens to stay at home, and shuttering thousands of businesses in an effort to flatten the coronavirus curve. But Mayor de Blasio did him one better: He said that places of worship that don't comply with the shutdown order could receive fines - or even be closed permanently.
While the majority of worship spaces have shut their doors throughout the state, de Blasio said that "specific churches" and "specific synagogues" are "unfortunately not paying attention to this guidance."
Mayor de Blasio said that if churches refuse to comply with the shelter-in-place order, police and the fire department will enforce it for them.
As you might imagine, not everyone is thrilled.
A Constitutional Violation?
Indeed, some religious leaders are positively incensed at the order. They say that involving the police and forcibly shutting down services, and even potentially arresting priests and rabbis, is a direct threat to their religious freedom. They worry that the government forcibly closing their places of worship is denying them their first amendment right to the free practice of religion and therefore unconstitutional.
Prominent Christian radio host and writer Michael Brown wrote an editorial for the Christian Post, where he said he agrees with the shelter-in-place order, and even arrests and fines. But shuttering church doors forever is simply a bridge too far. "With all respect, sir, and meaning no insult," he began, "this sounded to me like a frustrated parent, upping his threat to his kids when they do not obey. In this case, not only does the punishment not fit the crime but the punishment, to my knowledge, is both illegal and unconstitutional."
Another prominent Christian who disagreed with the order is conservative columnistTodd Starnes, who said, “There’s no doubt that churches should take reasonable precautions to protect their congregations. It’s prudent to cancel services or move to online worship. But the government has no right to dispatch ‘enforcement agents’ to literally shut down houses of worship in the name of public safety.”
Desperate Times
Still, even with the frustration and outrage over potential fines and closures, it's important to keep in mind that Mayor de Blasio is ultimately trying to stop the spread of a virus that has ravaged his city.
After all, places of worship have been a hotbed for the spread of coronavirus.
And those in de Blasio's corner say that individual faiths aren't being targeted, and that no one is prevented from practicing their faith at home. And with tens of thousands of lives at stake, city authorities are within their constitutional rights to temporarily close churches - and enforce that with strict punishment for violators.
After all, the initiatives that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have outlined for the COVID-19 virus exist fora reason. They are designed to limit the amount of possible transmission of the virus among community members as it is highly contagious and it's possible to have the virus for up to 14 days before showing symptoms.
Through social distancing, banning large gatherings and events, and encouraging citizens to stay home, medical experts hope to slow down the number of infected patients so that medical facilities do not get overwhelmed by the number of patients that need treatment. When hospitals and care facilities run out of resources such as hospital beds and ventilators for patients in critical conditions, death tolls spike due to a lack of resources - as we've seen in Italy over the past month.
Safety First, or First Amendment First?
De Blasio does not appear to be backing down in the face of his critics. As his city continues to fight a pandemic that is quickly overwhelming the local healthcare system and threatening to cause the death of thousands more New Yorkers.
What do you think? Should churches be closed during the COVID-19 outbreak - forcefully, if necessary? In the age of livestreaming, Zoom, Google Hangouts, and any other dozens of apps that can be used to congregate digitally, do churches remaining open have any excuse?
Or is this a case of the first amendment rights of millions of New Yorkers being violated by an overzealous politician?
How far can government go in times like these?
104 comments
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Dan Anderson
So far, there has been absolutely zero evidence that God is protecting those who have had church services. People are still getting sick when they attend these group meetings/services. One statistic showed that just one person can spread this virus to as many as 15,000 people or more.
Does not their holy book claim that they must also follow the laws of the land? Even Paul wrote about it. Romans 13:1-2 says: "Obey the government, for God is the One who has put it there. There is no government anywhere that God has not placed in power. So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow."
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Like the old saying goes (regardless of where it came from) "Faith without works is dead." We must follow the advice of the experts, in order to survive, regardless of beliefs, or what we have the legal right to do. It's not time to proclaim our freedom as Americans, as individuals, as rebels, as extroverts who can't stand to be home, alone. We can go back to acting out those roles when all this is over, and it's safe to come and play. In the meantime, in order to keep living, which is of Paramount importance, we must work together, as a whole.
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Tom
Respectfully...the Mayor is correct...the government has the police power to close all gathering places...this temporarily supersedes the First Amendment...and I agree with the comment that essentially said that a church is a building; your "religion" is in your head, and goes everywhere with you...Peace...Tom B
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Daniel Gray
Um sorry, there is NO law that says the mayor can suspend constitutional liberties and if he is stupid enough to try then he deserves the time in prison that he is going to get. Dont believe me then check with the sheriff in Florida that arrested the pastor after services. Seems he got a visit from the Gov's office and there was a lot of loud shouting in the office. After the Gov's man left, ALL charges against the pastor were dropped and the sheriff was officially warned that if he ever tried a stunt like that again he would forfeit his badge and his job. The Gov of Florida was so scared by the pastors attorneys and a major 1st amendment violation against the state that he modified his stay at home order to exclude churches. You dont screw around with the US Constitution.
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Brien
Yup, more ignorance. You must be going for a record.
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Mark Stricklett
This pandemic is going to culturally change American and the World forever - things will never be the same - so get used to it. I know plenty of churches that are broadcasting their services via Computer, public access and even Zoom. Find a technology that reaches your members and embrace it.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
....Also, it's not a good time to project into the future our speculations about what hasn't happened (even if you're sure it was a prophetic dream), for all we ever have is what's going on right now, in this current moment. It's also not a good idea to cry over spilled milk, but stay focused on what's going on right now.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Having church services these days isn't much different than saying "Let's all eat some pudding, and fly away on a comet." Regardless of the legality of it, it simply isn't right, to lead people to their deaths.
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John Robert Manis
I have read the comments. It is also said by the word of the Lord to obey the righteous laws of man put in place to protect every human, and in my opinion animals. I can't fathom how they put their belief they are above others to put so many lives at risk. But then again humans believe they are superior and even preachers, priests, pastors and all prove it over and over again. I am a man of God but I do not attend Churches for that reason, among others. I pray with myself and God. What they are doing is showing no real concern for their fellow man, openly possibly condemning many to death.
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Minister Carlos Ricardo Walls
Why is it some people find it difficult to follow directives?Covid 19 is akin to the plague,stands to kill a lot of people.Be an adult,don't play Russian roulette with your life. Definitely not make decisions for other people's lives.
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Daniel Gray
Oh PLEASE try! I would pay pay per view costs to see this fool frog marched out of his office and into a car to be sent to Rikers Island. I mean really, is he this stupid of a fool to think he can just violate the 1st Amendment? What about the first sentence in the 1st Amendment of the Constitution which says
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Now if Congress cant do it, what makes this person think that he can violate the Constitution any time he wants? Like I said he has a nice 8X12 cell waiting for him if he tries this as the punishment is a 250,000.00 fine and or 20 years in prison or both And whats going to hurt is according to federal regulations and statutes, each separate day the Constitution is in violation is a separate chargeable offense complete with prison time and or a fine.
Maybe he had better rethink this and rethink it again and then just have a coke an a smile and shut up and stop acting stupid
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Brien
asked you before to specify just what part of the first amendment is being violated. So far, you have not replied. You have quoted the amendment in several posts, but so far you have failed to make your point. No one is trying to stop religion, but public health and safety requires ANY large gatherings to be suspended. There are ways to still hold services without the need to gather shoulder to shoulder inside of a building. Tell me this, do you believe that people have died from this disease or do you think it is false news. If you believe it to be true, then why argue against the only safety measure that saves lives?
Since you are found of repeating your self, I thought that i would do the same.
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Daniel Gray
No you have just shown your ignorance as you have been told where in the Constitution it says you are wrong and your ego just refuses to allow you to admit you are wrong
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Brien
Daniel, it is you that is incorrect. The only correct thing that has come from you is a couple of lines from the first amendment. You keep adding and interpreting things not represented by this amendment.
1. There is no interference with anyone's right to worship.
2. Public gatherings are regulated wether you know it or not. All public buildings have a maximum allowed head count, and all large public gatherings are required to report their gathering to the city/county in which they are to be held. Notice that public safety is the number one concern just about everywhere. No one is telling anyone not to worship, nor is anyone dictating what to worship. Any of your objections simply DO NOT EXIST. There is NO FIRST AMENDMENT VIOLATION. I honestly do not understand how you can read something so many times and still not understand it.-
Lionheart
Brien, he is not able to understand. It’s called “ignorance” that he likes to brand others with because of his own lack of ability to comprehend.
🦁❤️
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Brien
Lionheart, you are correct as usual. I think I'll just sit back and watch the nutjobs circle the drain. 😁 Peace to you my friend
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Daniel Gray
And sorry Brien, since Congress cant do this and the Supreme Court has said localities cant do this Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 so exactly how do you expect anyone to tell another person that they cant attend a church service?
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John D. Partin
Nobody is telling people that they can't have a church service, but only that they shouldn't, for now, congregate in a building and infect each other and other people when they leave to have it!! A very different thing!! Have your church services online or in small group gatherings. That is what is required right now and for the immediate future. Daniel Gray would be the first not to expose himself or any family members or friends that he loves (if any!) to this virus and have them die by going to church, but, of course, he doesn't care if other people get sick and die and so tells them "Go on and go to church, since it is your 1st Amendment right!".
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Daniel Gray
Oh really? Tell that to the people in florida whos pastor was arrested for preaching. Tell that to the people in Mississippi who were fined 500. for sitting in their own cars with the windows rolled up. Tell that to the people in Michigan when the Gov says that they will be fined if they go. Tell that to WCBS and WNBC In NYC when their own talking heads told the people that they couldnt attend church according to the mayor.
You really dont know what you are talking about do you?
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John D. Partin
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John D. Partin
You are the one here who just obviously doesn't know what in the Hell you are talking about, as your post here, once again, abundantly demonstrates!! It is WHERE!!! they are holding services or trying to hold them and not WHAT!!! they are doing that is the problem!! Hold services all GD day and every day and live in your church 24/7 (at home!!) for all that I care or anyone else cares about that, so long as you don't endanger public health and safety or spread covid-19 by congregating in a building and then leaving and taking your infection back to your family and friends or out to other people in your city, who then spread it to others, who spread it to others, and so on in geometric progression!!! Truly loving people, as you claim to be, aren't going to do that, anyway, but will keep away from other people and practice social distancing, for now, to keep themselves and others safe! Why can't you understand that and see the disconnect between people's having church services in a building where they are listening to sermons about "love" and then leaving and doing an unloving thing to other people by infecting them with covid-19?!! Then, you can't figure out why I and other people call you STUPID!!! How could we not do so to someone who can't see that disconnect and just goes on mindlessly babbling about "the 1st Amendment's being more important than anything else or than people's lives"?!! Of course, we will say that about you and all other like-"minded" people!! Any so-called "pastor", who keeps on preaching in a building, in spite of a stay-at-home order and endangering public health and safety, proves thereby that he isn't really a pastor, who should care about people, but only a common criminal and so deserving of arrest, just as anyone else doing what he is doing would be!! People sitting in their own cars at a church, still in defiance of a stay-at-home order for public health, deserve to be fined, as a warning to others and pre-emptive strike, because if they'll disobey the law that far, there is no reason to think that they won't disobey it further and get out of their cars and start mingling around and talking with each other and spreading the virus further, too!! When disobedience to an executive order or law costs people money, then they actually pay attention to it and are wary of disobeying it, and not until then!!! Why are you so gung-ho about your interpretation of the 1st Amendment, while only picking and choosing what actual laws or executive orders that you will listen to or follow or think that other people should listen to or follow?!!! Because that is a double standard and contradiction on your part!! Why would even you excuse people from going to church, 1st Amendment notwithstanding, if there were a fire in the church or a flood, hurricane, tornado, earthquake, tidal wave, tsunami, bombing or other natural or man-made disaster in it, but refuse to see the necessity of people's not going into a church building when this virological fire is burning in it?!! Because that is another double standard and contradiction on your part!! I'm tired of wasting any more time, for now, talking to something like you, who never understands anything, anyway, or agrees with reason and common sense because you don't have any of it on your own!! Enough for now and reply when you want!!
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Ilmenheru Terikson
DG churches are not sovereign states unto themselves, they are not immune to the law nor dictates of the representatives we elect to manage society. There is a far cry from banning the practice of a faith outright, and making it very clear that those places violating an emergency mandate made for the saftey of all will face punishments. Every church still has to meet local regulations to be built and they can indeed be shuttered for violating health regulations.
Also you seem to not understand a key word in the constitution, Respect. Its against the law for the government to give respect to the churches and their officials. Checking their privilege is very much he meaning of it. To keep the churches and their zealots humbled and in their place as spiritual advisors, not political leaders, which when the document was drafted was common for the major churches to act like alternative forms of government hence how long stand conflicts in Ireland between protestants and catholics came about as an example.
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Daniel Gray
Since the Constitution says that Congress shall make no laws respecting the establishment of a religion nor the prohibiting the free exercise thereof, and since Congress isnt allowed to do it what makes you think that a Gov or a mayor or a sheriff is going to be allowed to do what Congress cant? So yea I would pretty much say that they are about 99.9% a law unto themselves no matter what you may think. Re read the first sentence in the 1st Amendment and take it to heart. And if that does not prove it then look up this US Supreme Court decision and that will put the final nail in the coffin of your ideas. Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993),
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I don't know about the rest of yall, but I'm a hippie and a non conformist who doesn't care anything about the U.S. Constitution. I'm also going to Hell in every religion, and am looking forward to seeing most of y'all there.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
Hell is for Devils. Im too chaotic for that place. Ill stick with Demonkind in the Abyss. Its way bigger with infinite layers unlike hells shabby 9 floor hotel. Also we got succubi,baby!
We also got the Balrog, which is always a fun guy at parties when he drinks too much and starts bitching about the time an old man with a sword wouldnt let him walk across a bridge.
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, you are still very confused and ignorant about what the Church really means and is, "thinking" erroneously that it is the building that people go to and not the people themselves even when they don't go into the building. So, the church (the people) can NEVER!!! be closed, but only a building. You also don't understand how just people's loving and caring about other people and following Jesus' other teachings can actually be the free exercise of their religion, instead of their walking into buildings and sitting down's being "the free exercise of their religion". The reason is quite obvious, to all people to whom it can be obvious!! Jesus didn't need to come to show people how to walk into buildings and sit down, since they had been doing that for thousands of years before he was even born and knew very well how to do that. He came to show people how to love other people better and more often and so it is, quite obviously to all perceivers of the obvious, this loving and caring about other people that is our actual religion and doing that which is the free exercise of our religion, and not the mere walking into buildings and sitting in pews that you and others want to reduce our religion and free exercise of it to being-----BECAUSE THE REAL THING IS TOO HARD OR IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU AND LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE TO DO!!! So, you have defined religion and the practice of it as "just walking into buildings and sitting down" to make them as easy on yourself as possible and defined the "prohibition of the free exercise of religion" as just closing down buildings and keeping people out of pews, for public health and safety reasons during this pandemic, temporarily, even though building entering and pew sitting were never what our religion really was all about!!! Since building entering and pew sitting were never what our religion was all about, but only about loving and caring about other people, the TEMPORARY!!! asking people to refrain from going into church buildings for public health reasons or forbidding and preventing them from doing so for those reasons aren't and can't possibly be the prohibition of the free exercise of religion, which you don't need a church building or sitting in a pew to do!! That is just obvious to any reasonable and thinking person and I have to keep repeating and stating this over and over again to you BECAUSE YOU AREN'T A REASONABLE AND THINKING PERSON!!! and so I have to talk down to you as though you were a 3 year old---and you still don't get it!!! Just have church services at home or with a few close friends or online, and still have your church services, which NOBODY!!! is trying to stop you from doing, while not endangering yourself and others while you do it!!! This has, no doubt, been more casting pearls before swine and pouring water over a rock telling you this again and you still won't get it or admit the logic and sensibility of it because I'm talking to a 3 year old and this is way over your "comprehension" level, but, at least, I told you the truth and did my part, as Jesus did to the Pharisees. Your not getting it or admitting it to be true, just as they wouldn't about Jesus' words to them, is your problem!!!
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Daniel Gray
Sorry John but the 1st Amendment and the US DOJ do not agree with you and I am smart enough to listen to them rather then a self proclaimed Internet expert.
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, even if the DOJ weren't being perverted and distorted by Trumpelstiltskin, which it is, its field of "expertise" is law and criminal justice (and since the current occupant of the White House came in, it isn't even to be trusted in that!!), not religious matters or the free exercise of religion!! As usual with you, you are listening to people who don't know what in the Hell they are talking about in this matter!! I would much prefer listening to people who specialize in religious matters and the free exercise of religion and know whereof they speak, the same as I would talk to electricians about electrical problems and not to my local baker, and to carpenters about any carpentry that needed to be done and not to a fast food counter person, and to plumbers about plumbing work that I required and not to a hospital orderly or nurse.You "think" that the DOJ's supposed "expertise" in law and criminal justice (NOT ANY MORE ON THAT EVEN!!!) qualifies them as "experts" or even "knowledgeable" about religious matters and everything else, which is just more proof of your not actually being capable of true thought at all, but I'll stick with the ACTUAL!!! experts in religious matters and everything else, if you don't mind!! That isn't being "a self-proclaimed internet expert", as you put it, but merely following logical procedure and reasonable protocols and listening to actually knowledgeable people in these matters, unlike what you and like-"minded" people do!! Try that practice, sometime, if you could keep up!! You might like it!! That "self-proclaimed internet expert" charge is more of that name calling that you are always complaining about other people's doing to you, which proves you to be a HYPOCRITE!!! So, you aren't being smart at all, but just showing more of your usual stupidity!!! No matter what you or the DOJ "think", our religion isn't building entering or pew sitting, but loving people and God, which don't require entering buildings or sitting in pews. So, it can't possibly (except according to people who don't know what in the Hell they are talking about, such as you and the DOJ!!) be any violation of the free exercise of religion to temporarily ask people to stay out of church buildings for the public health and safety or keep them out if they won't do so voluntarily, since our entering them and sitting down was NEVER!!! our religion, for the 10,000th time with you!!!
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Paul J. Fumero
I would threaten them, shut them down and heavily fine them. This is a new level of STUDID. This is a serious pandemic and these stupid churches must comply with safety directives.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Staying alive comes before all else, even the U.S. Constitution.
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Daniel Gray
Go ahead and try, and when you are sitting in your jail cell try to stop Bubba when he wants to be romantic, then you can say you were warned by the Constitution and the US Supreme Court Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 that you cant do this and you ignored it, and now you not only have a 20 year stretch to go but you also have a federal felony conviction on your record. Are you really saying this is what you want?
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John D. Partin
Why aren't you doing what you are telling other people to do and not protect yourself from this virus and just jam up into churches and everywhere else that you want to go and leave and go back home or out into your city and infect your family and other people just because it is your Constitutional right to do so?!! Then we would be rid of you very quickly (and good riddens to bad rubbish!!) and not have to be bothered by your nonsense anymore?!! Why don't you practice what you preach (and die off quickly from doing so!!)? Too bad about your family and those people's having to die, too, because an idiotic family member and careless stranger infected them, but, hey, those are the breaks and **** happens, right?!! The Constitution was protected and that's the main thing, right?!! But you and that "Pastor" go right ahead and keep your churches open and packed, and then, if you both survive, somehow, and are sitting in a prison cell for manslaughter and public endangerment and inciting people into risking their lives, then you can comfort yourselves, at least, with the fact that you still have Bubba to take care of you and hold you close!!! Maybe, he will even have you doing drag shows and stripteases for his amusement, since I know how much you enjoy that!! Is all that really what you want?
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Daniel Gray
Nope I am following my 1st Amendment rights. Its people like you that are trying to tell me that I cant.
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Rev. Dennis
Not withstanding my comments on the other post. The mayor did violate the first amendment by targeting religious organizations themselves. If the organizations don't abide by a stay at home order and they are not practicing social distancing within the confines of the building he has a couple options.
First is to meet with the faith leaders and take them on a tour of a Covid-19 hospital wing and convince them of the dangers (which they should already know as this is global and not just in America).
If they don't do that then he has the authority to quarantine the congregation inside of the religious institution they want to worship in for two weeks and then require testing after that time is over to make sure they don't have the virus. (This should also be done with non-essential outlined businesses as well.) Should anyone leave the quarantined house of worship they can be placed under arrest and taken to a predetermined quarantine facility.
They have the religious freedom to worship but they don't have the Constitutional right to potentially infect others by their decisions. If people would have voluntarily complied when this was requested we would not have to have this debate and we would have not lost over 7,000 American New York citizens.
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Richard Lee Cornell
Hate to tell the preachers that they only have their building by the grace of the city. They pay no taxes on them. That can change. While the IRS issue the 501 (c) (3) the State does not have to reconize it. The city will want back taxes on the property. The country will want their taxes. The State will also want thier taxes. As my Mother says (Afterlife2.org), when dealing with the IRS is that they hold the rope that is tie around your neck and if you get out of line they kick the chair from under neither you. More than one church have tried challegeing government officials and found themselves out of business. Even the mighty Catholic Church humble themselves with thhe IRS.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but no, they cant stop them from building a church. And the IRS cant tax them under federal law. Do get your facts correct.
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Rev. Jason LaBarre
I can understand people's needs to go to the church. I can understand clergy wanting to be able to give the people what they so desperately need. Since we are a very technological society. Why can't we do a online sermon. Where people can send questions, and watch there clergy members answer them? As a person of the church, I would rather have my congregation healthy and safe, than sick and dyeing!
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Daniel Gray
I have already destroyed you John and yet you continue with your stupid claim of an unwritten part of the 1st Amendment even when the US DOJ says you dont know what you are talking about.I have repeatedly asked you to provide your information and to this date you never have. While I was having spinal surgery at Luthern Hospital I had the time to ask Ms.Karen Nelson Moore, she is a circuit judge on the 6th US District Court, one step beloe the US Supreme Court. SO I asked her about your lie, and she stated that in the 30 years she has bee in law this is the first one and time that anyone made this claim and she says the same thing...PROVE IT. If you cant prove it then you are lying. SO its time to put up or shut up John...what are you going to do? Are you going to continue to claim this false item and show everyone that you dont know what you are talking about, or are you going to show a court cast where this myth actually was used? Now just remember that if you fail to show where this was used as you claim it exists, it throws ALL of your previous and future puts under suspicion of being fake as well. Clock is ticking John....what are you going to do?
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John D. Partin
Daniel Gray, Jesus Christ is a superior lawgiver and judge to any 6th U.S. District Court or Supreme Court justice or anyone else that you could ever name, since his law overrules all human laws or amendments or other human inventions, and he gave the unwritten clause in the law of his time (which came from God and not just from a human Congress and so overrules that law from the Congress!!!) and that unwritten clause in that law and our law is to do what is necessary in the situation to help people and not put the law above human needs!!! What applies to the greater law of God applies, quite obviously, far more to the lesser laws of man. "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" was the formulation of that unwritten clause, until Jesus brought it forth, which should already have been known by the Pharisees of his time and should be known by that 6th U.S. District Court justice Ms. Karen Nelson Moore and every Supreme Court judge and everyone else!!! Their not knowing or admitting that doesn't make it untrue!!! The heart of the law of God overrules every human legal precedent or case or law that you or anyone else can ever come up with!!! Your putting human laws or your interpretation of some human laws above the heart of God's law don't actually make them superior to the heart of God's laws, since you are a de facto atheist and don't even care about God's thoughts or will about anything or even believe in God at all, regardless of how much you may, superficially, "condemn" atheism, except as you can twist him to make him support your agenda!!! Your CHILDISH!!! claim to "have destroyed me" and attempt to "back me into a corner" is just really more evidence of your immaturity, irrationality, unacceptance of reality, and desperation to "prove your point", with such tactics as saying "clock is ticking" (how very sad and ridiculous you are!!!). I'm not in any corner or under any "deadline" or "restrictions" from something like you, but am completely free and unbounded in the liberty and rationality of Christ, which isn't subject to any human limitations that you or anyone else tries and fails to impose upon it!!! So, it is actually up to YOU!!!, not me, to PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!! and show how human laws and precedents "are superior to the heart of God's law", which you will NEVER!!! succeed at doing, since it can't be done!!! As usual with you, you have everything upside down, inverted, and backwards in your "thinking" and so aren't considering things correctly!!! Your 6th U.S. District Court judge friend's position, quite obviously, doesn't keep her from incorrectly thinking about this matter, either, and there will be no getting through to her or you until you both open your hearts and minds to the truth and properly put the heart of God's law above human laws and precedents, not vice versa!! Until then, my or anyone's trying to explain that to her or you and make you understand is like talking about colors to a blind person: you don't have the ability to understand what is being said to you!!! A "false claim", according to her or you, and an actually false claim are, quite obviously, two entirely different things!! You are incapable of understanding that, but it's still true!! So, the clock is ticking for you!! When are you going to "prove that human laws are superior to the heart of God's law"?!! We will be waiting and eager to see that!!! Right now, everyone can see through all of your pretentiousness and see that you don't know what in the Hell you are talking about!!! Wise up to yourself and screw your head on straight!!!
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Daniel Gray
once again John, prove what you say or forever be know as one who make up stuff to validate their myths.
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Daniel Gray
I did answer the question John. If the members of the church vote to close it then that is legal and up to them. But NO city or state or county or anyone else has the authority to demand the doors are closed or else. How many times does this have to be told and shown to you directly from the US DOJ before it sinks in?
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John D. Partin
The U.S. DOJ is being "run" by an incompetent and corrupt "Attorney General" and flunky, stooge, and puppet of Trumpelstiltskin and so nothing that it or he says about any legal matter means anything at all, since they have strayed from proper legal practice, definition, and ethics!!!
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Daniel Gray
SO this is how you do it? When you cant do what you want because three sections of the US Government are saying you are full of it, then you go and act like a three year old with a full diaper and start whining and calling names. Typical
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John D. Partin
So, that brings us back once again to your not being able to figure out anything on your own and if some leader in the church doesn't tell you not to walk into a burning church or church that is being destroyed by a tornado, earthquake, hurricane, or other natural or man-made disaster, you don't have sense enough to figure out how to stay out of them on your own and have to be told everything that you should do by someone else!!! Isn't that right, little Danny?!! You can't depend on just the church leaders always having enough sense, either, to close down the church when natural disasters necessitate their doing so because, most of the time, they are as STUPID!!!! as you are and will be the first ones to go walking into burning or swept away or covid-19 infected or otherwise destroyed and life-threatening/death-inviting churches and urging their sheeple people followers to go in right behind them and telling them to "trust in God to save them from harm". But God expects you to use the brain that He gave you and save yourself, too, and not depend on Him for things that you could do for yourself!! So, if you don't save yourself by keeping yourself out of dangerous environments, you can't always or even usually count on church leaders doing that and doing your thinking for you!!! Not when they depend on you and others like you for large collections on Sunday to keep their churches and themselves going---and to Hell with your getting sick or dying or anything that happens to you!!! If there were only churches in this country and one congregation never had any effect on any other congregation in another church and each church only made its own members sick or dead, you might be able to say that what each church did was none of the government's or larger society's business and they should stay out of your business, but none of that is true and what you or other people do in your churches and the covid-19 that you contract there DOES!!! affect the larger society when you go out among them, if you don't spend your whole lives in church and never go anywhere else, and infect and sicken and kill them, too!!! That makes it their business, too, not just your business, since it is affecting them as well!!! If you and other "church rights are the only rights" people want to separate from the United States of America and form your own country, so that you will only infect and kill yourselves, go ahead and do that, if you can, but as long as you are still part of the U.S.A. and your behavior is adversely affecting other people, then you don't get to do just whatever in the Hell that you want to do and sicken and kill other people by doing it (attending covid-19 contaminated churches) because we live here, too, and have our rights as well!!! NOT JUST YOU HAVING RIGHTS!!!! I've already told and shown you that the government will violate people's 1st Amendment and other rights in the case of Japanese Americans during W.W.Ii, who were put into internment camps as a "threat to national security", and others whom it deems "public dangers", rightly or wrongly, and so there can be no reasonable question or doubt that the government can do so, if it sees fit to do so!! If church leaders aren't smart enough to keep the larger society safe from covid-19 because of their reckless and indifferent to public health behavior by congregating in churches and then going out and spreading that infection and death to the rest of society, then the government will certainly have no choice than to help them to think better than they are capable of doing and take over their affairs and churches and protect the public from these irresponsible and uncaring people, as it has done wrongly to Japanese Americans and many others throughout our history because it doesn't care more about your or anyone's 1st Amendment or other rights than it cares about national security and public welfare!!! You can take that to the bank and prove it to yourself by looking up examples of their violating people's rights "for the greater good" over and over again!!!
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Daniel Gray
So once again John you are complaining, and huffing and puffing because the DOJ and the courts and the 1st Amendment are all saying you dont know what the heck you are whining about and they are saying you are wrong. So keep on huffing and puffing and the rest of us will keep laughing at you as you have absolutely NO authority to change anything so all you are doing here is wasting your breath.
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John D. Partin
Once again, Daniel Gray, the original pre-corrupted DOJ and the uncorrupted non-Trumpelstiltskinian courts and the actual wording of the 1st Amendment, instead of these corrupt travesties and imitations of the DOJ and the courts and fraudulent irrational interpretations of the 1st Amendment (such as yours!!), don't say that I'm wrong at all or don't know what I'm talking about!! They say that I'm right and know exactly what I'm talking about, which you might know if you could read or understand anything without your right-wing blinders on!!! As for "the rest of us will keep laughing at you", there is nobody with you here because nobody even likes you, much less agrees with you, and everyone here is laughing at and disagreeing with you!! As usual, you have everything upside down, inside out, backwards, and inverted in your screwed up "thinking"!! You are the one who is always huffing and puffing about your insane and ridiculous interpretation of the 1st Amendment and then trying to say that I and other people "are the ones who are huffing and puffing" and transferring your actual behavior on to us!! It isn't necessary for I or anyone to change the 1st Amendment, since it already allows us to worship in other ways than by going into unhealthy environments. You are wasting your breath here because none of the intelligent people here will ever go along with your nonsense and insanity!!!
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Johnny but the DOJ says you are wrong and so does the US Constitution, oh and by the way did you miss the decision from the US Supreme Court saying that states have no authority to violate the 1st Amendment?
Whine all you want to Johnny, it wont make a hill of beans as you are wrong and your ego wont allow you to see that
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John D. Partin
Poor little Danny, did the adults here talking wake you up from your nap and make you grumpy and in need of a warm bottle of milk and a burping before putting you back to bed?!! You really aren't capable of understanding adult talk here yet (and never will be!!), but, anyway, everybody here knows that states aren't violating the 1st Amendment at all in encouraging and allowing their citizens to worship in non-life-threatening ways and still worship every bit as validly (and far more sensibly!) as or than those who do insist on congregating in covid-19 saturated buildings and so the Supreme Court's statement has no actual bearing on these states' decision, except, of course, to little children, such as yourself!! The actual DOJ and the U.S. Constitution, instead of this corrupt travesty of it under Barr and insane interpretations of the 1st Amendment, such as yours, which says that "worship can only take place inside of buildings and never outside of them", absolutely prove that I'm right and that you are WRONG!!! still, as usual, and that it is your ego and childishness that won't allow you to see and admit that and keeps you whining all the time and crying for another bottle of milk!! We may get you some more crib toys to hang over your bed soon, to amuse you and so that you can sleep better and be more quiet, too, and not disturb the adults here with any more silly posts like this one that you just posted here!!
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Keep the churches, temples and mosques closed. If these people really believe in a God, they know that God is everywhere. These religious institutions just want more money when they scream to keep them open. What dangerous morons.
Then again, keeping the churches open during this pandemic could help bring about the end of Christianity much sooner.
'sea bee elf': There is/will be NO end of Christianity, ever. Christianity is the eternal loving, living CHRIST!
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled.”
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You are just mad that people this your point is silly
Its called a 1st Amendment violation child, and its illegal and a federal felony to do this. Or did you miss out on this part of the Constitution?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Now if Congress cant shut down churches, what in Gods name makes you or him think you can?
It's also called be responsible not only to your fellow partitioners and all of the people of the city if they truly cares not only about their faith but the people that share that faith and all the people of the city , state and country we all live in the church are not under attack they are only being ask to close their doors till the threat of this virus passes and since they seem unwilling to comply it's not just their safety at stake is all of our if they infect people because they do not want to stay home for the cities, states or countries safety then maybe they need to rethink their beliefs
Its also called a Federal felony Violation to violate the Constitution for any reason, so your point is what exactly?
So let's commit another felony, child. Just don't get caught. They haven't caught me ,yet. And even saying this isn't going to help them, child.
So, Daniel Gray, you haven't answered the question if you would keep a friend or loved one from walking into a burning church or church that is being destroyed by an earthquake, tornado, hurricane or other natural or man-made disaster and interfere with their 1st Amendment right to worship as they please or would just let those people whom you claim to "care about" walk into those churches that would kill them? If you would, hopefully, keep any people whom you claim to "love and care about" out of life-threatening church buildings, then you actually agree with those of us who say that the absolute right to enter any church building, no matter what is going on in it, doesn't exist and the 1st Amendment doesn't say that or guarantee that right. If you would let "loved ones and friends" enter buildings that would kill them, what does that say about you and your concern for those people?!! It says that you have no concern for those people!!! There is no difference between keeping people out of a church where covid-19 is infecting and killing people and keeping people out of church buildings that are on fire or being otherwise destroyed, if they don't have sense enough to stay out of them on their own!
I asked you before to specify just what part of the first amendment is being violated. So far, you have not replied. You have quoted the amendment in several posts, but so far you have failed to make your point. No one is trying to stop religion, but public health and safety requires ANY large gatherings to be suspended. There are ways to still hold services without the need to gather shoulder to shoulder inside of a building. Tell me this, do you believe that people have died from this disease or do you think it is false news. If you believe it to be true, then why argue against the only safety measure that saves lives?
There are many things Daniel doesn’t understand, so I doubt you’ll get a sensible intelligent reply, but we can but hope. 🤪
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I think they gave little Danny one too many lobotomies.
There you go! Classic Daniel. He doesn’t understand. Worst of all, he can’t even see it. Watch him try and justify his logic. I hope he does, I need the laugh.
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Daniel is quite a legend, in his own mind.
Oh I understand far more then you do it seems. I understand you cannot violate the Constitution no matter what your feelings are on the matter
There you go, classic Lionheart. When proved wrong this is how he replies thinking nobody is as smart as he thinks he is
🤣🤣So easily hooked🤣🤣
yes, yes you are. Maybe you should start removing some of them?
And I have repeatedly answered you "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Now tell me if federal law and the Constitution does not allow the supreme law making body of the US the right to violate the Constitution when they please....tell us just where the Mayor of NYC or some little sheriff in some small town in Florida think they can do what federal law refuses to allow any other portion of the US Government to do. Or are you just going to ask the same question all over again?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Ok, that is directly from your post. I will now refer to you as a dealer in death, because that is what you have earned. Congress has made NO LAW interfering with the establishment of religion. Show me the law, chapter and number. You cannot because there IS NO LAW. You have the right of free speech, so do I. I chose to use my speech to tell you to shut the hell up. There is NO PREVENTION of the exercise of religion. There IS a ban on large public gatherings for the safety of our society at large. Many of us have made huge sacrifices because of this. People like you will be looked upon as criminals. That is something that you will earn in the eyes of the majority. No peace for you or others like you.
No sorry, its not from my post. If you would have bothered to read the 1st Amendment of the Constitution of the United States, you will see that its the first two sentences of the 1st Amendment. So if you want to try and claim otherwise then prove it. And if backing the Constitution and demanding that it be followed makes me a criminal, then so be it as the ones who will be made a criminal are the ones like you who seemingly think you can violate the Constitution at any time and at any reason you so choose. And I can assure you that when you try you are in for a very rude wake up call.
And tell me child, If they are not going to let Congress pass a law or give an order that violates the Constitution, then what exactly makes you think in your irresponsible mind that they are going to let a Gov of a state or a local sheriff do what they wont let the supreme lawmaking body in the US do? Didnt pay attention in school did you as when you have a public gathering in a church, and a pastor is leading it in prayer then it is a church service and as such the ONLY people who can stop it is the church members themselves. Ever wonder why the Gov of Florida had to change his shut down order to classify Churches as allowed https://www.orlandosentinel.com/coronavirus/os-ne-coronavirus-desantis-second-order-supersedes-local-20200402-ffob5ojpifhlno4cdy6bd3offq-story.html Guess this destroys you and your illogical post.
Are you able to read what you post? The very first line of my response to you was copied and pasted DIRECTLY FROM YOUR POST. You still have not shown in any way that ANY RELIGIOUS FREEDOMS are being denied. Public gatherings have NOTHING to do with religious freedom. Public gatherings may be regulated if it is determined to create unnecessary danger to the public at large. There are still plenty of ways to worship without needing to physically gather in a single closed space, which would create an unnecessary danger to the public at large. Why should someone die for your or any religion? Again, your ability to google the first amendment is admirable, too bad you cannot understand what it says.
Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 Even the SCOTUS is saying you are not telling the truth
Oh really? since you clearly cant or wont understand, try going to Mississippi and telling the people who were outside a church on church property INSIDE their cars listening to the pastor on their radios with the windows rolled up and out of nowhere here come the police who start handing out tickets though no law was broken. Go tell them that bunk. And the Council member and his wife who were each fined 500. for doing this...tell them your claim but dont be a bit surprised if you get laughed at and then get tossed out of his office on your ear.
Interesting, can you please link that story. It seems that I am unable to locate it. You are trying to make a point yet offer nothing of substance save the poorly misinterpreted reference to the first amendment. I have had to deal with your kind of person for years now and the one thing that seems common is the closed minded false narrative.
There is a certain level of Vibration in masses. (lol. Literally) when done together. Yes you can do it seperated at home but when your together is a higher vibe. It helps.... Sprituality for one, mentally for followers to feel a sense of togetherness, a place of belonging. Support, human connection nothing like it.
I understand far more then you do lionheart and this has been proved more times then carter has liver spots.
What makes you think we're always trying to obey the law, Danny boy ? Not all laws are ethical, or even meant to serve the people, Me. Goodie Two Shoes.
The Android poltergeist screwed up the last two sentences in my last comment. "Me. Goodie two shoes" was not what I wrote, so please overlook that. Thank you.
You mistakenly wrote the word proved, instead of proven, little Danny.
seems Scotus is also saying you dont know the first thing of what you are trying to talk about
Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520
That case is about allowing animal sacrifice in religious rituals. From https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/508/520/ "The Free Exercise Clause protects animal sacrifice that is performed as a religious ritual unless the government can show a compelling countervailing interest."
I agree with Daniel that it is a violation of the first amendment for any government in the U.S. to interfere in any religious practice. It is also a violation of federal law for the government to quarantine people who have not been demonstrated to be sick. The name of the offense is "denial of rights under color of authority,” and it is unconstitutional. It is just a matter of time before someone files an injunction in Federal District Court to stop unjustified quarantine.
However, nothing in the first amendment prevents any religious group from canceling group meetings, and many have done so. Even if your group meeting are not canceled, you do not need to attend if you don't feel safe.
The international leaders of my spiritual study group have ordered all meetings of any size to be canceled during the month of April. This may continue into the late spring and summer, we don't know. Our leadership has warned us in the strictest of terms not to organize any secret meetings of our group members.
In the mean time, we can pray and meditate individually, read spiritual books, listen to recorded religious lectures, look at spiritual visual media on the internet, and talk on the telephone with group members. This virus situation will improve sooner or later. God is with each and every one of us. Take reasonable precautions, follow guidelines, and don’t worry.
If they cancel them on their own thats one thing, but for some government official to take it upon themselves to violate the Constitution on a whim, then thats something all together different
What if they don't have the common sense and are too stupid, as you are, to cancel those meetings and people die because of their and your stupidity!! Then the government has the responsibility to take charge of these people and protect them from themselves and save their lives, which they aren't smart enough to do for themselves!! That is the whole purpose of government: to do things for people that they can't do for themselves. The government provides for a national defense, which just individual citizens couldn't do for themselves against an invading army, and defense against this pandemic is national defense, too, and so, if people can't or won't do it themselves, the government has to step in and do it for them!!
You can't yell fire in a theatre. This isn't about the church people the first amendment. It's about anyone they come in contact. Can't Christians remain Christian if they miss church?
A theater is far different then a church as a church is protected under the 1st amendment and a theater isnt. Nice try at analogy and major fail
Hi Daniel, Free speech is free! However there are exceptions on people, places and things. The second point is about the separation of government and religion. There are a number of applications on computers that allow free speech and religion to continue.
Too, there are many people who are home bound who can't get to church. The pastor would most likely reach more parishioners than in church. No one looses free speech and the services do not affect others.
One hugh problem: No collection!
No sorry its not. Churchs are protected by the Constitution. Try again
Please, show me where it says that a public building or a large public gathering is not able to be regulated. Before you answer that, remember that all public buildings have a maximum head count rating, and outdoor publc spaces are also regulated for use by permit. So, public gatherings ARE regulated, no matter what they are for. Your complete ignorance is astounding.
Article 1 Section 1 US Constitution and SCOTUS decision Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520
Want to try that again?
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Get some new material. Your still ignorant. You want to quote rights, ok. I have a right to protect my loved ones from harm. I have a right to defend them if I believe that their lives are in danger. Your refusal to do what is needed to minimize the chances of my loved ones, yours, and everyone else's loved ones of possibility of contracting a deadly disease puts you on a very short and very uncomfortable list. Remember it is the majority that will set the rules. We vote on it, and the majority amends and changes the constitution depending on the needs of the majority at the time. What will never change is my right to protect my family. So, I do not care what church you go to, nor what mythical being you pray to, YOU WILL NOT EVER ENDANGER MY FAMILY. Are we clear on this? For some reason, common sense seems to be missing from the minds of zealots. Are you a zealot? Or are you just stupid?
NO PROBLEM. . . .Free speech can be through Zoom, sent through emails, etc. No one is stopping free speech, just trying to stop a virus that's killing all of us, religious and atheists alike.
This is a matter of semantics. Nobody is loosing any rights. God helps those who help themselves.
Dan, this is good enough for me.
Maybe for you but exactly who are you to tell the other people who want to go to a church, that they cant and violate their 1st Amendment rights just because you accept getting it through zoom. And what about the people who dont have computers, are you going to tell them that they cant go to church? And yes I know of a person named Wayne that does not have a computer and does not want one. Try telling that Veteran that he cant go to church especially since he fought in Korea and in Vietnam. Just make sure you have some place to run as I dont think he is going to take your ideas very well
I will happily talk with the veteran, because the veteran will sacrifice to SAVE LIVES. You are ignorant.
I hope you don't think this blog has something to do with obeying the law, or being law abiding citizens. Have you heard of a word called spirituality, child? It doesn't have anything to do with any Constitution, child child. So take those amendments and shove them wear the sun don't shine, child, child,child,child !
Yep and spirituality wont put you behind prison bars for violating it like the law will
Good point. Perhaps it would be best if you were locked up.....for your own good of course.
Daniel Gray, what makes the government think that they can close down church services and us think that we could if it didn't when churches are behaving irresponsibly, despite the 1st Amendment, is an unwritten clause in that Amendment and in every law, since lawmakers expect people to have some common sense and not need to have everything spelled out for them, which states that churches have the freedom, as everyone else does, to do whatever they want, so long as it doesn't affect or endanger the larger community or themselves. Conducting church services during this pandemic violates that clause and so the government does have the right and duty to close down churches that hold services and endanger us all by doing so. Christian rights aren't the only rights in this country or in the world. The rest of us have rights, too, such as the right not to have our health and lives put at risk by irresponsible people!! If they won't stop doing so on their own, they have to be made to stop!! Pastors and congregations of churches, who claim to "love peoole so much" should demonstrate some of that "love", especially during this time, by not continuing to do something that endangers themselves and other people!! It's called social responsibility!! That should be right at the top of every "people loving" church's list of priorities!!
If its unwritten then how do you know about it? You can use 360 pages of words and go off on a tangent all you want, But the fact remains the Constitution says "NO" and you either follow the constitution or you go to jail. End of story
Everyone knows about people's health and safety taking precedence over the 1st Amendment and going to church, regardless of the danger that you are putting other people into, who has any common sense at all!! And so, of course, I understand your not knowing anything about that or agreeing with it, since you don't have any common sense or conscience at all and don't care about public safety or health!!! Just like the Pharisees before you, who also only cared about the law and nothing about people!!
Daniel Gray, I know about the unwritten clause in every law because I don't need everything to be spelled out for me and can figure many things out for myself, unlike you, and have common sense and logic, again unlike you!! Many other people can figure things out for themselves and don't need everything spelled out for them, too. As for going to jail for "violating the Constitution", exercising the religion of love and concern for other people isn't violating the Constitution and preventing the exercise of that religion, which is a contradiction. Besides, people also go to jail for manslaughter and public endangerment and inciting people to risk their lives, as you and that "Pastor" will experience if you keep churches open during this pandemic!! People also get sued over those things and you'll learn about that, too!!
Ok then tell us what "unwritten" clause you are referring to as there is NO unwritten clause anywhere in the Constitution and in my 60 years on this planet you are the very first one that has even made such an absurd statement
Once again, it is unwritten to everyone who doesn't need everything to be spelled out for them in the Constitution or anywhere else and can figure some things out on their own and not have to be led by the hand or the nose to every obvious conclusion, which is just tacitly understood and assumed by everyone who can do so!!! But to little children, such as yourself, it certainly wouldn't be obvious!! That is your fault and problem, though, not the clause's problem!!! No idiot, such as yourself, is in any position or qualified to call anything "absurd" and you have, obviously to all of us here, wasted your 60 years on this planet because you haven't learned anything worth knowing or become any smarter after all that time!!! You are always calling everyone who disagrees with you in here (all those with any intelligence at all!!) "child", but keep proving yourself to be the actual little CHILD!!! in here by your posts, such as your post here!! It is long past your bedtime, little Danny, and leave the adults in the room here to their conversation!!
You are still ignorant.
Daniel Gray, you don't even believe that no circumstances should ever keep people out of churches yourself because, unless you are completely CRAZY!!!, you would admit the necessity of keeping people out of churches that are on fire or being destroyed by tornadoes, floods, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, and other natural or man-made disasters, so that they won't be burned up, drowned, crushed, or otherwise harmed or killed!! Keeping people out of churches where covid-19 is making people sick and killing them is just more of this common sense and necessary policy in practice in these other disasters, which the government would certainly do to keep people from harm and save lives and that is their responsibility. The "absolute right of people to enter any churches whatsoever, no matter what is going on in them" doesn't exist, as these examples prove, and that isn't in that 1st Amendment that you are always throwing in people's faces here and trying to beat us over our heads with!! Read the 1st Amendment yourself again and see if "people can go into any churches, even if that makes them sick or kills them" is in there. IT'S NOT THERE!! That isn't any person keeping people out of churches, but only the fire, tornado, hurricane, earthquake, covid-19, or other disaster keeping people out of churches. Your position is totally inconsistent, illogical, insane, and ridiculous!!!