In early 2017, the city of East Lansing, Michigan banned vendor Stephen Tennes, owner of Country Mill Farms (CMF), from participating in the city's farmer's market, citing the city’s public policy against discrimination.
They pointed to a Facebook post Tennes made the prior year, where he announced that his farm, which also serves as a wedding venue, would refuse service to same-sex couples.
Tennes is Christian, and believes marriage is between a man and woman only.
Now, after a six-year legal battle, a Michigan judge officially ruled that the city violated Tennes’ freedom of religion and he should be allowed to participate.
Here's how it all went down – and how people are reacting.
The Right to Refuse Produce
The controversy began when CMF clarified that it would not host same-sex marriages in a 2016 Facebook post.
"Country Mill reserves the right to deny a request for services that would require it to communicate, engage in, or host expression that violates the owners’ sincerely held religious beliefs and conscience,” the farm said.
Following complaints, the city banned Stephen Tennes and CMF from the market, arguing that their anti-LGBTQ policy violated the East Lansing nondiscrimination ordinance, which prohibits discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
But U.S. District Judge Paul Maloney ultimately agreed with Tennes that his First Amendment rights were violated.
“The City’s decision to exclude Country Mill Farms from the 2017 East Lansing Farmer’s Market constituted a burden on Plaintiffs’ religious beliefs,” his ruling said. “Plaintiffs were forced to choose between following their religious beliefs and a government benefit for which they were otherwise qualified.”
Tennes is a devout Catholic, and regularly hosts weddings as often as 44 times per year at his farm. Guided by his faith, he says he’s stopped hosting bachelor and bachelorette parties there, as well as haunted houses in the fall.
The new ruling permanently establishes the right of Country Mill Farms to sell its produce at the farmer's market, despite the owners' beliefs.
Free Range, Organic Discrimination?
The city stands by their belief that the law should be on their side. "[Country Mill Farms’] business practices violate the City of East Lansing's long-standing ordinance that protects sexual orientation as well as the Supreme Court's ruling that grants the right for same-sex couples to be married," stated the city during their initial ruling.
But Tennes says, “true tolerance is a two way street… the government should not eradicate people of faith from the marketplace.”
Supporters of the city's view don’t see it as true tolerance, however. As one Michigan-based attorney put it, “we wouldn’t allow it for race and gender so why is LGBT any different? Allowing this intolerance creates and perpetuates a second-class status for all LGBT people in the state of Michigan.”
Tennes and his attorneys swear that all are treated equally when he’s selling his products at the farmer’s market. But in another setting, clearly not all are welcome to his services.
The question at hand: should a business owner's religious beliefs or policies impact their ability to participate in city events (such as a farmer's market)?
What is your reaction?
417 comments
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I have no particular affection for the religiously delusional but basing the exclusion on Facebook posts or not accepting gay couple weddings on his property isn’t justified.
Now if he starts expressing those same views at the market, either by oral communication, signs or limiting who he will sell to, kick his archaic butt out.
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Daniel Gray
And violate the constitution in doing so. Real smart guy as this gives him a soapbox and also the story NEVER said he was voicing anything. learn to read and understand
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James Riggle-Johnson
You should read, Daniel. He said "IF HE STARTS" not that he did start.
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Daniel Gray
No YOU should read and educate yourself. The city banned him FIRST BECAUSE of his religious beliefs and they admitted as much in the lawsuit. Not one of the people whos stands were next to his ever said anything about him stating anything about homosexuals. The city found his beliefs when they looked into him AFTER they were told that he said something that offended them at his OWN stand on his OWN property. Thats when the city made this decision, here it is directly FROM the citys attempted defense on their decision clearly listed in the lawsuit. "East Lansing first barred Country Mill Farms from its farmers market in 2017 after the Tenneses posted on Facebook in August 2016: “Due to our religious beliefs, we do not participate in the celebration of a same-sex union.” The post was in response to a question about the family farm's services as a wedding venue." Since this was his own private property he had the right to do this. And the city found out REAL quick that they messed up badly
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Brien
Dan, this will probably get deleted as you seem to be protected. Tell me, how did he communicate his feelings about this? Internet? Social media? Both are PUBLIC venues. If he deals with the public, he is NOT ALLOWED to make public comments against protected classes. If his business is private, then this is a non issue. But if he participates in public sales then what he says does matter and can be used to support discrimination charges. Now, I have done my best to talk to you as an adult. I only wish you behaved like one.
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Minister Butterworth
Daniel,
Your words are intelligent and you seem to be well educated and very up to date with your information. Your point of view is always interesting.
Thank you,
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Daniel Gray
The ONLY reason that Native Americans ARE a protected class is because of the Treaties that was signed between my people and the US Government.
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Kym Hartmann
I guess it all depends on if you believe the bible or not, is it God's word and is it the truth.? What does the Qur'an say on the matter? All I know is that we are to love and forgive everyone no matter what and teach and show them truth? Kym.
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Minister Butterworth
Kym,
Well put.
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Kym Hartmann
Thanks Minister Raymond, your reply is much appreciated 🙂🙏. Kym.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Amen.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
What can’t Christian follow the teaching of Jesus and love and accept all of God’s Children including LGBTQ+. Jesus would have loved LGBTQ+ people and would bought food and shared food with them. What’s wrong with Christian’s?
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ServantOfJudgement
Since you brought it up Douglas, I'll lay it square. Jesus would definitely do as you've said. After that he would instruct the entire LGBTQIA community to turn from that community, turn from the sin they're proud of and then turn to him forever and abandon LGBTQIA forever. If they say no to him, he will say no to them.
There, I fixed it.
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James Riggle-Johnson
What makes you think homosexuality is a sin? The word homosexual only appeared in the bible in 1946. The bible itself was written by men who were supposedly writing the word of God, but if today is any example you can see men interrupting the word of God whatever way the want, to do whatever they want. Just my opinion.
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Father Flanagan
If men were meant to have sex with other men the anus would be self lubricating like the vagina and men would be able to conceive and bear children which is the sole purpose of sexual intercourse - procreation! This is nature or god or whatever you want to call it, I call it biology and it’s all proven facts but you are welcome to believe whatever fantasy you want to create for yourself so you can sleep better at night.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thinking like yours is exactly why people thought the earth was flat and burned witches.
Educate yourself.
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
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Pastor George Day
Thank you, Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson.
Here's some scientific data on why some people are born intersex. This isn't to prove that God intentionally creates intersex people - we know from Scripture that all creation has been wounded through the sin of Adam and Eve. It just gives evidence that this condition exists.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It's a poor God that allows ANYTHING in their Creation they don't want.
This isn't 2000 years ago. We know a thing or two about world building now because of video games and virtual reality. We know that even the tiniest change can mean major differences. If you see it in the world then that means there is an IMPORTANT reason for it to be there, and NOTHING less!
Such sloppy errors in the construction of their worshippers would be concrete grounds for a lawsuit if people did it. Your rationalizations and excuses DON'T wash.
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TZTX
Refer to Sodom & Gomorrah in the Bible
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Bond Wright
Father Flanagan: 'The sole purpose of intercourse is procreation". Pardon me, with all due respect, but that statement simply exposes what a lousy sex life you have had. So until you take some risks and learn something--don't try to teach. Leave the teaching to those of us who know what the erotic is. P.S. There is only one human being that has a sexual organ who's sole purpose is ...... (ready?) PLEASURE. That human being is..... a woman. And, the organ is the clitoris. Males do not have an equivalent. The clitoris has nothing to do with procreation. Mother Nature in all Her wisdom endowed the female human being with this amazing item. Which has brought great joy and pleasure to all. In fact, it is the urgent goal of all woman=hating, patriarchal countries to clictoradectimize the women. Statistically, reported by the United Nations, 100 million women every year are subjected to this sick brutalization.
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Minister Butterworth
Soj,
That is most definitely the best and most true post I've read in quite a while. Thanks
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
BULL.
You are literally making that up.
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement,
That isn't at all what we read in the gospels... or we must be reading different translations.
Tell me where in John 8 Jesus tells the woman to leave the man she's living with.
Finally, Jesus died to cleanse from our sin. It seems to me a big YES!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Because with love comes a responsibility. We love all but we hate the sin. The apostles as well as Jesus were clear on one thing . Don't associate with those who show no plan to repent or change theirs way. In their sin they will invite other sinners worse then themselves into your flock. When a person persists in the sin of any kind and you or the people do nothing the sinner invited with no plan to repent will create scandel by you doing nothing. Inclsuvity comes with a price and responsibility. I get so tired of people saying, you're Christian. You're supposed to be all embracing. Yes all embracing to those who show remorse and repent. The command to love the sinner comes with a price. You include those who want to repent. You exclude those who continue in their debauchery; whatever that sin is.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"It's funny, isn't it? That you can preach a judgmental and vengeful and angry God and nobody will mind. But you start preaching a God that is too accepting, too loving, too forgiving, too merciful, too kind... and you are in trouble." ~Bishop Gene Robinson~
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Daniel Gray
figures you would use an espiscopal bishop who was ordered to retire or be removed for violating church teachings.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yeah DG - with no one subjugated and no one sacrificed it's not much of a religion is it. How can anyone feel superior if there's nobody to treat as an inferior?
I imagine he was removed straightaway.
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Daniel Gray
and he was removed. Thats why he is an EX priest
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, that's right.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Just as there are those priests removed because of the evil they do - there are those removed for the opposite reason too.
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Daniel Gray
How can breaking your priestly vows be a good thing for you?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
And which vow did he break by speaking the truth?
Perhaps you can enlighten us all.
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Daniel Gray
he vowed to be celibate and he clearly wasnt
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Bond Wright
This is an excellent analytical observation. The radical base of it all. Judgment, revenge, anger and punishment is exactly what a patriarchal system is all about. Better to follow the pagan law: Do what you will and harm none. Freedom of expression and creativity, forgiveness, kindness, reconciliation, mediation, generosity, nurture not punish, celebrate the erotic and democracy--for all. All must be sovereign. YES: Do what you will and harm none.
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Pastor George Day
Keith Allen Steele Eash,
Have you heard of the Pharisees, by all means?
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Father Flanagan
The farmer kept his views to himself for the most part aside from his post, someone went looking and decided to get offended by his religious beliefs! Now I don’t see this so much as a religious freedom issue as I do see it more of a first amendment issue, social media posts should not be allowed to be used as a tool to remove people you don’t like from public areas. His behavior in the market was never called into question as he had always acted appropriately and wasn’t an activist pushing an agenda, he simply posted his religious views on the types of weddings he was willing to perform on his property which has absolutely NOTHING to do with this market or his behavior or speech in the market making this a persecution of a man by a small minded group of people who should be the ones banned from society!
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Brien
No, sorry. If you publicly operate a business, you go into it understanding that you may not discriminate, either in form or function, at any time. That includes opinions that you make public. Promoting bigotry or discrimination is no longer acceptable in society today.
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Daniel Gray
Says who Brian? Are you saying that the signs that say "no shirt, no shoes, no service" is not discriminating to the people trying to get a tan or just dont like wearing shoes? sorry but your myths do not fall under any law that can be enforced.
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Brien
Dan, Your comment is ignorant and is not a protected class. Once again, you show yourself to be uninformed. But please keep going.
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Daniel Gray
So how Brian can you claim fact is ignorant? Only a true ignorant person would do that
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Daniel Gray
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Keith David Harry
Tank ya Faddah!!!!
Excellent response
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Randy Henry
Everyone has their own mind Thats okay don't force others to follow just because you think your way..
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Timothy Paul. Forrester
I feel that those who are against odds for this drag queen, is to me out of controlling. It does say in the Bible that God created a man and a woman: now a woman was created as a help meet for man and we're forbidden for a man or woman to lie down with the same set, it goes against God's law, but we're also taught in the Bible that the greatest commandment is to LOVE that means no matter the person or who she or he is we're to love them as Jesus loved us a sinner that deserves he'll, everyone of us deserves he'll not Heaven; but by the grace and love of Jesus Christ he Died for you and me. So next time remember what would JESUS do?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Repent and believe is what Jesus was about. Love the sinner but don't associate with him if he doesn't repent. He may bring you down.
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Bond Wright
Christianity is a sexist, male supremacy patriarchal "religion". As such, it is basically a woman-hating "religion" and gives justification,for thousands of years, for the torture, enslavement and suffering of women. There has been a complete examination of this sexist religion by American First and Second Wave Feminists. The Bible states "woman was created as a help meet" for the guys. Baloney. Ridiculous. The truth is women are created by nature as free and autonomous homo sapiens--human beings. And, fully endowed with a conscience, intellectual ability and a vast capacity for creativity. She is sovereign. Period.
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Lionheart
Do you get your stories from a book of some sort, if so, do you have any demonstrable evidence any of them are true?
Just asking for a friend, who loves similar works of fiction, like the Harry Potter books.
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Hey Lionheart! I've missed you!
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Lionheart
Missed you too, Baron George. 🤗
🦁♥️
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Echo
This judge and the owner sided with allowing hate. Freedom of religion extends only to the person, but when it extends outside the person and denies another it's violated. Such a bad ruling and hopefully it's appealed.
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Robert Gagnon
Not hate, he will not condone or reinforce something he does not find proper. It is up to the vendor to what degree he enforces his belief. But once again if you don't like his view, don't use his services. He has the same rights to practice his spiritual and religious beliefs as anyone else. For that matter since when are same sex issues a religion? Apples and oranges.
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Reverand Jim
Same sex marriages didn't happen for Gods' people. They didn't exist. Marriage was between a man and a woman. Read Leviticus 20:13. He is not discriminating at the farmers market. A public venue controlled by the government.
He has a Constitutional right to allow whom ever he wishes on his private property.-
Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Rev Jim, if you don't like gay marriage, don't have it. Leave other people alone.
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Brien
Yes, keyword is private. He cannot operate publicly.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Well said. Everybody has a right to refuse service for reasons unknown. You just can't post it in your window like " no blacks allowed" etc.
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Daniel Gray
They stood up for the 1st Amendment. No matter how you like it or dont, nobody gives a rats butt as this is the law of the land and you whining about how it is offensive to you makes no difference. You want it changed then get a constitutional amendment to change it. but be warned that since 1787 there have been over 22 THOUSAND attempts to change the constitution and only 27 have actually happened meaning you have a 0.00008279% chance in doing it. And if that was not bad enough, you have a minimum of 5 years to a maximum of 7 years to get 38 states to agree with you. So I think you might want to get busy REAL quick if you have any chance of doing anything....or are you going to continue to whine and cry?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So your hate is safe.
Congratulations.
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Daniel Gray
How can it be hate when its the 1st amendment to the constitution Kenny?
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Brien
No Dan, the first amendment is not hate, what you do with it is.
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Daniel Gray
No brian, the hate is when you are trying to force people to violate their beliefs as guaranteed by the constitution. Which is exactly what the city was trying to do. All because he refused to allow his private property to be used for a same sex marriage the city then tried to go after him. They found out that they couldnt and the courts hit them VERY hard.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Because there were enough hateful people to enshrine it in the constitution.
It's not rocket science DG.
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Daniel Gray
Seemingly it is to you.
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Daniel Gray
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Michael Holland
So the dude dont like gay people he should post a sign on his vendors booth so gay people don't buy from him, turn about is fair play!
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
I hope everyone boycotts his stall and shows him the same contempt he shows for others.
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Gerard J Babin
Very Christian words ....and from a Revrand???/ or should I say false prophet...
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Reverand Jim
Like the contempt you, as a man of God, are showing. God have mercy on you.
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Minister Butterworth
Rev jim, Very well put. The Bible teaches of forgiveness and love. Luke 6:37; Judge not and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: We are taught hate the sin, love the sinner. Forgive, love, and pray for the sinner. If that doesn't work, forgive, love, and pray some more. clergy loses focus on this, and responds with a negative attitude, people notice. How can anyone take us seriously if we can't take our own vows seriously. Being an ordained servant of God is as serious as it gets. We are responsible for helping people get what they need for the salvation of their souls. If we slip up some time or maybe just have a bad day, we can easily send a soul down the wrong path. We may not mean to or even realize that we are but that doesn't change anything.
Thank you,
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Lionheart
I personally love some of the very sage words of Dumbledore, from another book of fiction.
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Which book is that? And who's the author? We all know that the author of the Bible is well known!
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Lionheart
Dumbledore is the well known fictional character in the other works of fiction: Harry Potter. The author is J.K. Rowling. She is now so well known that she has become one of the wealthiest women on planet Earth. 🤗
🦁♥️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
I see. She apparently wrote the whole fiction by way of automatic writing. It is widely believed Harry Potter to be a Satanic bible.
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Lionheart
Nah, It's a fictional series of books, full of human construct, much like the Bible, and the fictional Satan.
🦁♥️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
How about historical evidence?
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Michael Benjamin Roberts
Agreed. It is an exercise in futility to legally attempt to keep haters from hating the other. Freedom of Religion also means Freedom FROM Religion as it is being used in so many un-Christ-like ways today. With Freedom of Religion being held by the very Catholic Supreme Court like the sword of Damocles over legal rulings, people need to vote with their feet instead of at the ballot box. Shopping at another farmer’s table and taking wedding venue business elsewhere are also rights to exercise in cases like this.
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Daniel Gray
No you are just mad that the present make up of the court is clearly doing what the Constitution REQUIRES them to do instead of what you want them to do.
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Pastor George Day
Michael Benjamin Roberts,
I wasn't aware the US Supreme Court was a Catholic institution!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Actually to post would be against the law. Best not to post in the window. You're asking for trouble then.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
I don't think the city should bar the vendor from participating... unless he won't sell produce or whatever he's selling to people based on his belief system no matter how religio-retro-sexual ... does he refuse to sell to people at the market based on his perceptions of who they are, or display signs or images discouraging people of the royal purple from buying his products? I doubt it. The colour of money is green after all.... If he does, that is another issue altogether.
That said, since people seem to think the free market system or the courts are smart enough to resolve these kinds of problems, the failure of one may necessitate victory through the other... in short, if you don't like his politics, don't shop there.
Unless he's selling something that is just to die for...
We all have our price.!
Rebtk
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Gary Leu
I agree, Daniel. I abhor such political extremism tangled up with religion, but he’s not the only one falling into this trap.
But, based on the article, I’m not sure what the government’s point is. We don’t and shouldn’t be checking for certain beliefs when setting up a farmer’s market. If he can sell his whatevers while treating the public equally and politely while on the city streets, then leave him alone.
If he’s violating something by refusing to hold marriages at his farm because of his religious rationalized hate, then go after him for that. If you can’t get him on who he chooses to do business with at his farm issue, it’s pretty lame to attempt to punish him at the farmer’s market just because you don’t like what he believes.
I think the judge has a good point, despite my distaste for this zealot.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It's the zealous who have brought this to the law, such as with the recent Lorie Smith SCOTUS case.
They wanted it, and they got it. Serves them right!
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Daniel Gray
So the city got bi-yatch slapped. Serves them right.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Conservatives want several things:
1) The right to discriminate. They want to tell whoever they want to GET LOST.
2) They also want no consequence for discriminating. They want to tell anyone to GET LOST and hear nothing about it afterwards, FOREVER.
3) They want a guarantee they will never be discriminated against. After all, what's the fun of being superior if somebody else can act superior to them?
In short, the slogan of modern conservatives, predominantly but not exclusively religious conservatives, should be "MINE! MINE! MINE!" Must be said in the voice of a screaming, angry, frustrated three year old - because that's the attitude of the modern conservative about the world.
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Gerard J Babin
The only thing conservatives want is to protect their kids from being taught this garbage in schools, and to not have it forced down their throats in public at every turn. Live how you want behind closed doors or out in public, but stop being offended by Christians who try to live by biblical law.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Hey Gerard, you're not without sin, so, stop throwing stones. Also, judge not, lest ye be judged. Lastly, you have to follow your religion. No one else does.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
GJB,
I get why you want other people who live differently than you to not exist. It would be so much easier to raise your kids to be just like you if they didn't. It would be a simpler world. It would be a simpler life. All the complications of the world only makes things that much harder, and who needs that?
If only everybody else could live their lives to suit Christians. Wouldn't that be great? Wouldn't that be cause for much rejoicing? At least for Christians I mean - if everybody else would just go away.
So I get it.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Let's hope none of his children will end up with same-sex attraction or gender dysphoria, or even find out at some stage they're intersex. That would be like dealing with a catastrophe!
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Pastor George Day
Gerard J Babin,
Do people learn at school how to be homosexual or transgender? And what about intersex?
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Timothy D Schultze
Liberals want several things:
-- They want to tell people what to believe and think. -- They want to vilify and persecute any person who dares to voice a differing thought or opinion. -- They want the population to believe they are tolerant but just the opposite is true. -- In short, the modern liberal will do everything in their power to try to destroy a person who dares not follow the liberal agenda and adhere to their ideas of what constitutes accepted speech and thought.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Timothy, you're wrong. Liberals want everyone to have the same freedom of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Regardless of religion, race or sexual orientation. Conservatives want to control. Control women, control minorities, control what people can think or believe and people's desire to love whoever they want. It's not about you. If something causes you no physical harm then mind your own business.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
Whack
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Timothy,
Can you give some examples of what liberals want people to believe and think? Can you give some differing thoughts or opinions people have been persecuted and villified for? Can you show how liberals are intolerant? Can you give some examples of the 'liberal agenda'?
Accusations are easy. Substance is always appreciated. For example here is a list of how conservatives marginalize and oppress people with differing opinions and views from their own: https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
Feel free to leave right here a similar list of how conservatives and the religious are being similarly vilified and persecuted.
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Daniel Gray
Sure we can...Sisters of the poor, The Cake Makers decision, the artists decision, the landowners decision, how many more court cases do you want where left wing courts and gays tried to force people to violate their religion?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So what you are saying is that if somebody does what they do EVERY DAY, but just for somebody they hate, that ruins their lives somehow?
Just say it DG - you believe the 'alphabet people' have COOTIES. Because the empirical truth is that a cake maker making a cake otherwise makes NO DIFFERENCE at all. It's HATE. Plain and simple.
On the other hand, excluding people from society is a REAL harm - but that's the point, isn't it? How can somebody know they are superior unless they can act superior?
Explains a lot.
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Daniel Gray
No Kenny, again you try to twist things to fit your agenda. What I am saying is that this person NEVER refused to sell to anyone in the farmers market NOR did he refuse to sell at the stand on his own property. He just said he would not allow his property yo be used for SS Marriages. The city then went and looked and thought they could deny him a stall because of one simple facebook page and even ignored the other stall operators who admitted they never saw him discriminate against anyone nor say a bad thing about anyone. Thats why the city lost and thats why Colorado lost and thats why all the other homosexual attackers lost and will continue to lose as the 1st amendment protects people from illegal actions like this.
And for you to constantly complain about it clearly shows a lot about you and your mindset.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
1) The right to discriminate. They want to tell whoever they want to GET LOST.
2) They also want no consequence for discriminating. They want to tell anyone to GET LOST and hear nothing about it afterwards, FOREVER.
3) They want a guarantee they will never be discriminated against. After all, how can you be superior unless you can treat someone else as your inferior?
And you clearly LOVE thinking you're superior.
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Daniel Gray
Nope they just want people like you to stop trying to force your beliefs on them.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You mean things like anti-LGBTQ+ bigotry and stealing bodily autonomy from women?
Do tell us all what you mean SPECIFICALLY.
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Daniel Gray
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
I would side with Daniel in the cake thing. The point is people have a right to stand by their religious principles in what pertains to their artistic expressions. I don't think the cake business would have refused a plain cake for the wedding gay couple. But making a same-sex wedding cake cuts to the core of their principles, and I can understand that.
Here's where we all need to find middle ground. That is why I do not view myself as either conservative or liberal. I'm just a pastor.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You are mistaken.
You've clearly taken a side.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Such gaslighting. I remember all the left feminists screaming at the top of their lungs when Roe v Wade was 9verturned or Antifa and BLM burning down people's businesses for no other reason then George Floyd's death which was just a scapegoat for their purpose to tear the American system down to bring their fascist communist beliefs to the U.S. And the left did nothing. When will you stop trolling?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thank you for that Fox News report.
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Michael Hunt
The irony of you accusing liberals of being fascist when on more than one occasion you have advocated for fascism is real rich.
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Daniel Gray
No Kenny, they want the same constitutional rights as you seem to want. Just because your beliefs do not jive with theirs does not mean they should give up their constitutional rights just to please you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I'm sure that's what the Nazis told the Jews - at first.
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Daniel Gray
How low do you want to go Kenny to try and lie about the murder of over 6 million people?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Okay, I'll bite - what am I lieing about?
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
What is so sad is that conservative Christians have confused pastoral outreach with politics. They will have to answer dearly for that! We all know how Yeshua reacted at the Temple in the Gentile area, that part of the Temple that was meant for outreach to the non-Jewish nations. Now, the Church is the New Temple, and pastoral outreach is the new Gentile area. With this area being used as a political arena rather than pastoral care, we know exactly what Yeshua would do! And according to the Gospels, he did that twice! I take that as reassuring!
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Dear conservatives, If you've got nothing nice to say, then say nothing at all. Your hate is tearing this country apart.
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Lionheart
Dear left leaning woke, please get well, and also, stop looting Malls and stores, sitting on freeways gluing your hands to the road surface, and start working for a living 🤗
Also, honor those who gave their life for our freedom and liberty. Honor the flag 🇺🇸 for what it stands for, unlike Megan Rapinoe, she/him/her/they, et al, another left leaning multi-colored hair liberal that obviously has no love for this country.
Just saying, for a conservative friend of mine that lost his life serving his country in Viet Nam. His pronoun was Sergeant Major.
🦁❤️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You forgot to say "And stay off of my lawn!" LH. =)
I find your description of liberals pretty funny, because liberals protest 400 years of institutionalized slavery and oppression that to this day still persists in subtle and not so subtle marginalization and even open violence, and conservatives respond with "THERE WAS PROPERTY DAMAGE AND YOU DIDN'T SALUTE THE FLAG!" That really says it all about liberal and conservative values, doesn't it.
And sorry about your friend. It's too bad more liberal voices weren't listened to back then. It would have saved a lot of lives.
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Daniel Gray
Nice spin Kenny. but no dice. You have a story about a former porn star (Maitland Ward) who tries to equate being in XXX rated films the same as being in Combat And liberals were the same ones who met our troops at the airport and called them baby killers and spat on them and then threw fits when one or more were escorted home in a flag draped coffin and they still do this to this day!
So DO NOT try and use Lions friend to try and prove your point, of which you dont have one.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
My goodness DG. Suddenly you aren't so 1st amendment gung ho when it's your own that aren't respected. Imagine that.
And I find it pretty hilarious that Mr. Conspiracy suddenly forgets all about the Pentagon papers. I guess we all have our quirks.
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Daniel Gray
Comment has been removed.
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Lionheart
Weren’t Democrats involved in starting the Civil War, and the KKK, or have they fought hard to discredit that as a rumour? 🤔
I admit to not knowing too much about the early history of the US, so please ignore my ignorance if I’m mistaken. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
We've had that discussion LH. I see it did no good.
But I get it. I'm up against the right-wing propaganda machine.
That's a tough nut to crack.
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ServantOfJudgement
Yes lionheart. Dems are historically known as the pro kkk crowd. As of late that fact is in a game of clamshell. Once the eyes are all off the right shell long enough conservatives will be on the hook. In the beautiful state of Ohio, slavery has been illegal from day one. In fact, slave hunters from the south looking for runaways were hanged by the law, rightly so. When Dems lost the legal right to hate black people in the 60s they started the clamshell game up. Nowadays they love them(black Americans)into oppression, it shows they care. Are they not being black American's 'White Savior'?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
HAW HAW HAW you so clever SOJ! Are we not black American's 'white savior'? Gee, I wonder where you saw that?
Didn't have to search far - it's all over right-wing media.
But tell me SOJ - how is that different from Fetal saviorism? Or Child saviorism? Or Christian Saviorism? Do any of those suffer from the statistical disadvantages of black people in America?
Speaking of which - please tell us all what your opinion is of Affirmative action, of Civil rights, of CRT and BLM? Surely you aren't against any of those - right? Good Christians are ALL about helping others help themselves, right? So - what's your excuse?
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Kenny but the KKK(originally called the night riders) was started by William Bedford Forrest a Southern Democrat. And it was a democrat known as Al Gore, when they tried to remove the monument from a state park, threw a fi5t and stopped them from doing so.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
DG - aren't you getting tired of this?
You raise what you think is a great point - and when investigated it proves either untrue, of the report is spin.
Care to place a wager of which this is?
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Daniel Gray
Comment has been removed.
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement,
Am I mistaken that conservative Christians are also pro- death penalty? At least I've heard a lot of Catholic priests on EWTN (a conservative Catholic channel) state that as Pope Francis has recently changed a clause in Catholic teaching to forbid the death penalty for all crimes.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
What's KKK?
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Lionheart
Ku Klux Klan. Perhaps you've not heard about them.
🦁♥️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Thanks. I did google it.
I wonder how such an organization can be legally allowed to exist in the US!
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Slavery was upheld by Conservative Christians, aka Southern Baptist Convention. Check the history books!
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Daniel Gray
Lion I am so sorry you had to go through that. I love being a life member of the DAV/VFW/American Legion and AmVets. And even though I would do anything I could for my brothers and sisters in cammo (I dont care what color your skin is or who you sleep with or what your sex is. You had the intestinal fortitude to put the uniform on and stand a watch on the wall, unlike some who constantly complain and use fake links/stories to try and get their point across) and I consider you family.
I have repeatedly told the officers at my post and others that I am a life member of, that while I love their dedication to this country, I am beginning to hate the dress uniforms (UoTD Uniform of The Day) as lately that means I am losing another brother or sister in uniform.
All I can tell you Lion is the hurt wont go away but as long as you remember them in any way, they will still be alive. God loves his warriors and you will get to see him again when you meet up at the watering hole in Flanders Field.
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Bond Wright
Hmmmmm. How do you know God is a "he"? What is your proof?
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Daniel Gray
Hmmmm, and how do you know that God ISNT a he?
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Bond Wright
Well, quite a lot of folks keep calling it (god) "he". How do you know? What is your proof?
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Daniel Gray
So I ask the same question of you. And so far you have yet to respond, so how do you know that God isnt a male?
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Pastor George Day
Bond Wright,
God is a Trinity, of which one took the form of a man, viz the Son. The other two are the Father (that is certainly a he) and the Holy Spirit, aka Sofia (Lady Wisdom). Here's where you could argue God is also she!
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Lionheart
Thank you for your reply, Sir Daniel. If you haven’t heard this song by the Fureys you will greatly appreciate it.
https://youtu.be/PkSAlnCRFew?si=F74FBA0P45rI3EqL
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
When they ask me my pronouns, I say: we - there's Denise living inside me!
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Lionheart
To each their own, Baron George.
My pronouns are Sir/Lord/He/Him, or whatever others would like to use in my presence.
Welcome back to the blog.
🦁♥️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Bingo!
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Rolando Couce
Well you have the right to be anti thing in this country until the Nazi and comminst democratic party take over trump better be president or we will be lkst
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Dude, Trump is the Fuhrer. He's supported by the KKK.
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Daniel Gray
Seems someone whined that I posted proof that the KKK was started by the Democrats and had Democrat Senators and a few Presidents who were card carrying members of the KKK, and the problem were they were all Democrats.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That would be extremely unfair, wouldn't it DG, to not let you post that, because it is for the most part true. I know it is, because I read it all right from the white supremacist forums and blogs it came from.
'Propaganda' is defined as "information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view"
Propaganda works by constructing an alternative reality. It does this most successfully by taking pieces of truth and spinning them into something completely different.
For example, did you know that in Nazi Germany Goebbels broadcast a daily radio segment in which an announcer just read arrest reports of Jews? Every word was true. Do you think that was exploitative and manipulative? Or do you agree with the Nazis that because the arrest reports were true they constituted public safety information, exposing the Jews?
Because you see, the Democrats "racist past" was a long time ago, but abolition was a LIBERAL cause. Civil rights are a LIBERAL cause. Affirmative action is a LIBERAL cause. Please DG, tell us all, what's your opinion now on civil rights, on reparations, on CRT and BLM? Or do you have something to say about those too? I bet you do - but I don't blame you, because the current right-wing movement is all about protecting white privilege, so it follows that they are then against anything that threatens that.
But don't believe me - believe the racists.
https://www.mic.com/articles/158302/kkk-paper-the-crusader-endorses-donald-trump-for-president
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-38057104
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
This is truly concerning!
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Gregory Ingram
You mean the States' Rights Democratic Party
The States' Rights Democratic Party (whose members are often called the Dixiecrats) was a short-lived segregationist political party in the United States, active primarily in the South. It arose due to a Southern regional split in opposition to the regular Democratic Party. After President Harry S. Truman, the leader of the Democratic Party, ordered integration of the military in 1948 and other actions to address civil rights of African Americans, including the first presidential proposal for comprehensive civil and voting rights, many Southern white politicians who objected to this course organized themselves as a breakaway faction. They wished to protect the ability of states to maintain racial segregation. Its members were referred to as "Dixiecrats", a portmanteau of "Dixie", referring to the Southern United States, and "Democrat".
Yeah they split from the Democratic party decades ago. Claiming that the Democrats started the KKK is just silly. It's like stating all Republicans support Maga.
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Daniel Gray
Um no sorry the Democrats started the KKK and its historically correct
https://www.history.com/topics/19th-century/ku-klux-klan
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John Robert Milner
What??! Trump has nothing to do with the subject matter! Stick to the point!
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Reverand Jim
You mean the KKK founded by the Democratic Party?
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Gregory Ingram
Pretty clear from all the post I have seen is Reverend Jim is just here to incite and add nothing to the conversation. Reverend Jim is also fairly uneducated or just willfully obtuse and ignorant.
Dixiecrats changed parties anyone with 2 brain cells know that it was the Dixiecrats that are attributed with the KKK they broke with their party because it would not support them and their racist agenda. Parties change acting like they don't is willful ignorance.
The fact you call yourself a Revered with some of the garbage I have seen you post makes me strongly question Reverend of what the hate parade?
Let me guess you are like that guy in Texas that told his congregation that Gay's need to be lined up and shot in the head. No love like Christian hate right?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
But that's not what Fox News reports, so those who kneel daily at the altar of Fox News and right-wing media would never know that.
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Daniel Gray
Since you seem to know whats said on the Fox Channel, might you need to stop kneeling at their alter?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The difference between you and I DG is that I don't react to the world by trying to make it smaller.
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Michael Benjamin Roberts
Beware Rolando. MAGA is the mark of the beast 666!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a47407/american-nazi-party-supports-trump/
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Daniel Gray
Really? Lying Again?
Hugo Black SCOTUS Justice member of the KKK, and so was Sen Theodore G. Bilbo, Sen Joseph E. Brown, John Brown Gordon, James Thomas Heflin (1869–1951) (D), the U.S. Senator Earle Mayfield (D), U.S. Senator (1923–1929) John Tyler Morgan (D) (June 20, 1824 – June 11, 1907, the U.S. Senator, Edmund Pettus US Senator
And the following Presidents Warren Harding-Calvin Coolidge-Harry S. Truman-Lyndon B. Johnson
So try your lies somewhere else as the thing that all of these had in common Kenny, were that they ARE DEMOCRATS!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It's funny because I have a reference, and you have spin.
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Daniel Gray
Funny that my reference came from the library of Congress (www.loc.gov) and yours is nothing to that. Nice try at lying yet again kenny. And oh BTW when did you start looking at links as in the past 15 times I have posted clear working links you then tried to claim they were not and got smacked with reality when it was proved that you never bothered to look.
So I guess you are just upset again that you were proved wrong and you cant stand it
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
He's a troll And this ULC really needs to seriously block such people who do not represent respect towards all beliefs. I get marked pending with approval because I used to let my mouth go . But, thevreal.gaslighters ate the ones who don't respect anyone of their religious beliefs. And everything he says is leftist response dribble. Half of his lies don't exist.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Me, a troll? Oh no - I'm on a mission from God! I have it on high authority that to remain silent just allows the evil to grow. Not to remain silent means you are confronting the sin. I can guarantee that remaining silent allows them to grow in sin and in number. To confront it means to chop it off at the knees. No violence intended. Just an expression.
But what do I know.
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Daniel Gray
not a whole lot
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Reverand Jim
I see you like to take opinions as fact. The only fact is it's an audio clip from a radio show. Everything else is conjecture and opinion.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/election-us-2016-37433759
There's plenty out there if you aren't afraid to look.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Oh quit gaslighting. Really with what this present administration is doing to the Constitution, this country , sending all out weapons and money to Ukraine so he can still make his millions andvthe biggest land grab going on in Hawaii. Please. Grow up and do some real research. Trump was no dictator by any means. His policies didn't promote genocidevand infanticide like Biden does.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
If the city, can’t ban em, it can distribute flyers, explaining why it tried to do so, and telling potential consumers, that it’s unchristian-like, for anyone ( such as this vendor) who hates everyone, who’s not in the same tribe, as this vendor.
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Timothy D Schultze
I'd like for you to show exactly where the hate is. Disagreement is not hate.
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Michael Hunt
How is denying services to a specific group anything but hate? His refusal to serve the LGBTQ community isn't backed up by the Bible because it doesn't say anything about not serving people you view as sinners. The Bible is just being used to justify his hate of a group that disagrees that being homosexual is a sin.
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Daniel Gray
And how is saying that you are not going to use my property for a SS marriage to be considered hate? Using your statement that means I can come into your home and open up an adult bookstore and you would have to accept it as to do otherwise shows hate on your side.
Do you begin to see how silly and idiotic your statement actually is?
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Michael Hunt
Wow, that was quite a leap from denying to host same-sex weddings to opening an adult bookstore in my home. It's a totally false equivalency though. If you are offering services to a specific group of people but denying services to another group because of who they are, you're doing so out of hate for what they are.
Same-sex couples aren't trying to open a business on someone else's property, they just want to have the same access to a venue that other people have. Denying someone from opening a business on your property is your right since it's your property and you can choose if you want a bookstore open on it or not. Your ridiculous example has no equivalence to a business who is denying a certain group from using their services.
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Daniel Gray
Nope nothing more then what the city did when they took his reply from a question on his own facebook page and then tried to ban him from the market because of it and lost their shirt in doing so
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ServantOfJudgement
What, go on an anti-christ crusade? Separation of church from state, remember? The State can't start persecuting christians until you make it legal. Sky's the limit once you make it legal though......
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Who's trying to persecute who?
Better think about it...
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ServantOfJudgement
I did think about. Saying how you feel on Facebook is not persecution. A government preventing a person from doing business because of a Facebook post about how you feel is persecution. The government spreading flyers around to boycott that person for how they feel is also persecution.
It's still legal to disagree with the homosexual lifestyle ya know.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"Christian Bashing".
Need I go on?
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Michael Hunt
Denying service to someone, which his Facebook post said he was doing, because of who they are is persecution. Please think harder next time.
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Daniel Gray
Nope that would be considered harassment and land them in even more hot water/legal trouble if they mention anyone by name.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Actually that would be against the law to.
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Herb Kopper
I hate the government getting involved in beliefs. The government isn't a living creature it is a high taxing group. They generate no income, and take more money as they wish to spend our money for their desires. The business owner is losing money if he doesn't take the business, but that is legal. So, if people want to do business with him, great if not great. The government should stop spending money on court actions that do nothing but pay government lawyers to make decisions that actually don't make any difference.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Well saidHerb.
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Patricia Ann Gross
I deplore his beliefs, HOWEVER, the wedding venue and the farmer's market are two different venues, so IF he keeps his views out of the farmer's market AND sells to everyone, I don't see why it would be a problem. He should probably not be allowed to advertise or talk about his wedding venue business at the market, since he does not provide that service to all of his customers.I think it is crazy that the decision was make on a year-old Facebook post, because people can become enlightened in the course of one or two years. After seminary and some serious deconstruction and reconstruction of my own faith I am a far different Christian than I used to be.
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Dr. Mike
I agree wholeheartedly with the Rev. Gross: There are two issues here HIS private property and the Cities public property, not the same. I agree that he shouldn't be allowed to advertise his wedding venue at the farmers market, and he probably doesn't. These kind of venues are such cash cows that I doubt he needs to.
I will pity and offer prayer for the man because he fails to see the beauty in ALL G*ds creations. Religion provides us with a book of rules and a way to the Almighty, from which each of us must create their own moral pillars and. to borrow a term from The Craft of Freemasonry, Tracing Board. As long as he doesn't discriminate in a public venue, feel sorry for his lack of Vision.
The solution would be for every LGBTQ+ person in the community to shop his booth and all the others to boycott him. Wait and see what happens then.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I don't think he promoted at the market his beliefs. It was on social media. He never projected his beliefs to the public in the market.
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Paul Andrew Breda
I'm surprised that the city (the "State," "Big Brother") would monitor social media and make such a determination on an otherwise unrelated event (the farmers' market). That's over-reach, and somewhat alarming. On the other hand, if the farmer refused to sell produce at the market to LGBTQ+ that would be different; banning them would be acceptable.
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Brandon Terry
Why discriminate against the LGBT community? I truly don’t understand! So many “Christians” focus solely on that! Yes, there are verses that when you read the current English translations with your current mindset, you can see that it’s a sin. However, aren’t we all born into sin? If you’re going to discriminate against the LGBT community, shouldn’t you also discriminate everyone else for their sins as well? It’s like when people boycott over representation in the media, yet they will hop on Hallmark to watch Candace Cameron Bure as she solves murder mysteries.
I left the Roman-influenced teachings after I discovered the loving teachings of the Essenes, Cathars, and other groups. I truly believe the Romans twisted a lot of stuff to use religion to control its people.
I mean if we are to follow the Bible, then why are people using verses like Galatians 19-21 to support their anti-LGBT agendas when those verses also very clearly list disagreements, fits of anger, sensuality (of any kind), and a lot of other characteristics or actions as sinful?
To me, it’s simple! I love and accept everybody! If anyone is using their “beliefs” to support their agendas, they’re being influenced by the wrong deity.
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Minister Butterworth
B.t.
Yes,we are all born into sin. We need to love all people. God will handle the judgement. This being said, we as Christians are to spread the word of God to all persons regardless of their lifestyle. We must let it be known to all that salvation is attainable for all. Then, each person must make a decision. Do i continue to live in sin or do i convert and be redeemed unto christ. One can accept christ at any time in life and it is important to continue to pray for the lost and showing them that they are important to God.
Of course we are all sinners. All fall short of perfection. For this reason Jesus died on the cross, that thru him we may be forgiven our sins and move forward in life leaving the sin behind. A person cannot continue to live in sin and be saved. One must put forth effort to live as Jesus wanted us to.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, we are all born into infinite potential. We need to love all people. God will handle existence. This being said, we as the mature and aware are to spread the potential of existence to all persons. We must let it be known to all that they are loved, that they have value, that their existence and their actions matter. Then, each person must make a decision. Do i continue to define the universe in my limited comprehension, or do i open myself to the limitless potential of God's Creation and my created potential within it? One can accept God's promise of limitlesness at any time in life and it is important to continue to live a life fulfilling and demonstrating the possibilites given by God.
Of course we all have limitations. All fall victim to the meaninglessness of suffering to some degree. For this reason God shines existence in a perpetual act of loving giving, shining the universe and everything and everyone in it that we may live, and also Create. One cannot continue in a limited mentality and grow. One must put forth the effort to live as Jesus did.
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Minister Butterworth
Kenneth,
Well said,
Ty
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Lionheart
Where are you getting your stories from? We all know that sin is a human construct, as are all of the supposed gods of this world. Which mythical one do you like to believe in? It looks as though it might be the Christian one….right?
🦁❤️
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Minister Butterworth
So many, who want to live in sin in peace, without feeling guilty for their actions, without contemplating an afterlife where ones sins are brought to the judgement of God. You have the information, the choice is yours.
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Lionheart
I’ve made my choice, Sir Raymond, and I possibly live far more of a moral life than many who profess to worship the god of their choice. I don’t need the religious blackmailing threat of a fictitious judgement in an afterlife to be moral. I do it because I want to, which is way better than doing it because of the religious threats if you don’t.
I have no guilt for loving and supporting mankind as best I can.
May love and peace follow you wherever you go without the threats established by religion 🤗
🦁❤️
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Minister Butterworth
Lionheart,
I agree with you whole heartedly in that you probably live a life of greater moral value than many who call themselves Christians. It truly does seem that everyone who wants to hate anyone or to be sick, twisted, immoral or just plain evil is claiming to be doing God's work. I know it's always been this way but it just seems so much more widespread now. That people can speak of threats by the religious with a pre-established common frame of reference really goes to show it.
May you be blessed continually with peace and love as well, without threats from anyone.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
I call this having the Incognito Jesus, like with the disciples of Emmaus :-)
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
All myths stand on a truth behind.
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Pastor George Day
Brandon Terry,
I think you need to clarify with passage in Galatians you are referring to.
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Rev. G
If you get angry or upset because he is NOT banned because he feels a certain way about LGTB (against in this case)... What if you were banned because of your feelings towards LGBT? (possibly in favor of for example) It is NO different. Love, the world needs more love and understanding. Besides, don't shop at his stand if you don't agree with him.. :-)
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Mike
Why are private values the same as public values.l? Yes, anyone has the right to refuse service for any reason. And no, any public service does not.
Let's take camping. A campground in Paducah, KY is private and refuses sites to anyone they seem "unworthy." Yet the Illinois State Park just 3.3 miles north cannot.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Why are private values the same as public values? They're not, of course, as you demonstrated, because public properties by definition serve all, whereas private owners serve themselves - and how are you to feel superior unless you can treat someone as your inferior?
It's not rocket science.
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Colleen McAllister
In this case unless the vendor posts hateful and anti LGBTQ+ he should be allowed to participate. However if he should turn someone away due to their sexual preference then he needs to be banned. He can hold whatever views hikes as long as he doesn't air them at a public farmers market
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Gerard J Babin
Just like gays he has the right to speak out; the secret is to keep your mouth shut and stop pushing the gay ideology on the public and just buy your vegetables say thank you and move on.
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Pastor George Day
Gerard J Babin,
Life would be so simple wouldn't it? And things would remain unchanged in the over all :-)
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James Riggle-Johnson
As long as he doesn’t refuse to serve people at the Famers Market, I don’t see how they can refuse him.
As for his opinions…
The guy owns the land that he won’t let same-sex couples to be married. He says it’s his religious beliefs, but religion doesn’t actually teach hate. However, it’s his property and his choice. I wouldn’t want to get married on his farm because of it. When other people stop using his venue then he’ll cry religious persecution. It goes both ways Farmer John. You discriminate, then others can discriminate and not use your business.
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Gerard J Babin
It's not hate, it's truth.
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James Riggle-Johnson
What is truth?
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Gregory Ingram
It's hate obfuscated as "strongly held religious belief"
"Love one another" doesn't come with a disclaimer of "unless" he has every right to deny gay weddings and gay people but I draw the line at using his "strongly held belief" on the topic because the #1 rule contradicts his belief.
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Dr Rohn
I agree. Well said!
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
I do not see any mention of hate.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Refusing service because you don’t approve of something is what I mean when saying “hate”.
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Minister Butterworth
Jr-j
When i say stop i really mean go. I expect neither of us will ever work for Webster. I disagree with your opinions but I don't hate you. In fact, i love you as i love all people and I will add you to my prayer list.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Look up 'hate' in the dictionary, then carefully consider the caustic reaction.
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Daniel Gray
they can and it has nothing to do with this Kenny, nice try but major failure
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What?
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Daniel Gray
You say to look up "hate" in the dictionary....but it has nothing to do with this as the stall owner has NEVER refused to sell to anyone no matter who they are. just shot yourself in the foot again. Want to bet it starting to look like swiss cheese because of how many times you have done it
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I love how your arguments are constantly so weak you have to spin a little denigration in a desperate attempt to give it some push.
I notice you don't give any other explanation for bigotry and prejudice - you just live in denial too.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
To deny someone service because of their choice of sin in.mife is not a crime nor is it a hate. Many people in a restaurant may be turned off when two of the same dex start kissing each other and its not good for kids to see that even among two of the opposite sex. Make out in private, not.piblic.
I remember a few years ago when a group of blacks came in to a restaurant being out and in their dialogue everythingbwas profanity. There were a number of families that complained because they had little kids and said they would leave and never come back. Do you allow that one table to cost you yoyr business. You have t right to ask them to leave or call the police.
If you have a restaurant and don't serve liquor do you allow people in with liquor no. Do you allow people to smoke when it's against the law. No. Do you refuse people with No Shirt, no shoes. Yes. You can't discriminate on race, sex, Creed, or color but at the cost of your business that holds to your religious beliefs you can and should ifbthey are being belligerent and loud.-
Michael Hunt
To deny someone service because of their choice of religion is not a crime nor is it hate. Many people in a restaurant may be turned off when two Christians start kissing each other and it's not good for kids to see anyone kissing at all ever. Show affection in private, not public. I remember a few years ago when a group of Christians came into a restaurant and in their dialogue everything was Biblical. There were a number of families that complained because they had little kids and they said they would leave and never come back. Do you allow one table to cost you business? You have the right to ask them to leave or call the police. If you have a restaurant and don't serve pancakes, do you allow people in with pancakes? No. Do you allow people to murder when it's against the law? No. Do you refuse people who are threatening to kill you? Yes. You can't discriminate on race, gender, or sexual preference but if they believe something that you don't believe it's totally fine to discriminate against them.
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
What other people supposedly think is meaningless imagination. If the way he presents his vegetables successfully invites people to buy food. that is his right.
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Wendy Thomas
WWJD thats my comment in full recompense God is Love and how can anyone barr anyone from speaking there mind blaspheming is a whole other scenario. But just for the case of the farmer it wasn’t too long ago that a black person wouldn’t be allowed to congregate,buy ,sell,vote just the minimal alienable rights that the constitution is supposed to provide we live in a country of double standards .
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Paul
I come from a different country without the complications of a 240 year + Constitution.
If the guy doesn't discriminate against customers at the Farmers Market then I see no reason to ban him there. If he offers a service to the public such as a wedding venue then it should be available to all regardless of colour, gender, orientation, disability, age, religion and anything else we call protected characteristics. Same principle as selling a box of tomatoes.There's one exception and it's about cakes and by extension personalisations. You cannot refuse to sell a cake to an LGBTQ+ person. You can decline to decorate it with a message you fundamentally disagree with. I think that's a fair line to take. Here he couldn't refuse to hire out his wedding venue but he could decline to decorate it with messages supporting gay marriage - they can do that themselves.
In my hospitality business I don't refuse any guests based on race, gender, orientation, religion etc. I would decline a booking from anyone with extremist homophobic or racist or discriminatory views (these are not protected). So this person would not be welcome. Christians are welcome. Those who advocate intolerance and discrimination towards others aren't.
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Michael E Stefanek
I very much disagree with the farmers stance, but I do believe he has the right to express his religious views if they are not clearly inflammatory (e.g., damming LGBTQ+ individuals to hell). However, it seems to me that protestors would also have the right to hand out leaflets at the market or hold signs at the market entrance noting those businesses that hold anti-LGBTQ+ positions. Consumers therefore can decide who to purchase from and everyone has their freedom of speech intact.
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Bernie James Rocheleau
If the judge had ruled the opposite way, that would open the door for anything said in this thread, pro or con, to be used as a means of excluding someone from something by a local government. The farmer posted on his website that he wouldn't do same sex marriages but unless he actually turned someone down (and that was the specific reason given) he has actually not discriminated but simply exercised his First Amendment rights, not only of free speech but also of "the free exercise" of religion.
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Martin L Stigleman
Thing is, the farmer is legally and morally allowed to follow his personal beliefs, no matter how asinine they are. It is up to the people who frequent the market to show him what his hatred and intolerance lead to. Also, the city is required to allow him to sell...nothing dictates where they allow him to set up shop. How about front and center...right between a Gay Rights promotional stand? Maybe put a Rainbow Flag product vendor on the other side? Even better...set up a small stage and invite public drag performances! The Law allows these POS to project their hate...but no one says we have to make it easy on them. I would also recommend putting together a database for locals that post these businesses that show their hate and discrimination. If they don't want to cater to EVERYONE, we should all work to see that they don't have the support to run a business.
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Minister Butterworth
Mls,
I see a great deal of anger, I see a seething, festering hate. I see the desire to discriminate and persecute those who think differently. I see the desire to ruin ones ability to support ones family and I see intolerance and childish name calling and you know what? Its coming from YOU.
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Pastor George Day
POS ?
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Minister Butterworth
Pastor George Day,
By pos he means "piece of s**t".
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Pastor George Day
Minister Raymond Butterworth,
I see! LOL
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Angela Viera
I agree with the judge. Tolerance is a two way street, but in the individuals own business, it is he who sets the rules as to his believe's, since he is being fair and sales to everyone, no matter what affiliation, it should not concern the city. Everyone is FREE to choose, just like the LGBTQ individuals have the right and are FREE to choose where they attend, purchase products, etc. The local government and the government in general should not TELL the people what they should believe in, behave, act etc. It is up to the individual persons' beliefs, no matter who you are. Violence is not the answer, either is banning an individual for their beliefs. Its a two way road.
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Thomas J. Shannon Jr.
This not hate it's his right as given by God hate the sin not the sinner to do anything to promote the sin is infact sinning your self Paul said that sin would get worse the God would be glorified the more but we are to love but not the sin.
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William Neil Beverley
Who said anything about "hate"? It's his right to "prefer and choose" his friends and associates -- doesn't mean he hates everyone else. Bigots are unable to live and let live, and expressions on this forum such as "kick his archaic butt" typify the small mind of the real hater.
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Paul Salgado
Freedom of choice still trumps all!. If you don't agree or if it offends you as a person. Then make a personal choice! Simple! Don't like something?? {Don't Support it,} {Dont Buy it,} {Dont watch it.} Keep it simple! We all deserve the right to pursue Happiness Whatever that is for you as an individual. Respecting peoples choices is monumental as an American. Freedom of choice!!! Live your path freely But remember with every action there will be a reaction! Live life freely!. Judge things by the fruit it bares .Use discernment! If your choice is to hate or disrespect or any other choice good or bad in our life journey here on earth. You may want to Question your thoughts or opinions? What fruit does it bare. What spirt is attached to it ? Love will always cover a multitude of what we think is wrong. Lets pursue a path of Love!!
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Brian Keith Hunter
Do you hear yourselves? This was about religious belief. Government and religion are not a good mix. The farmer never once said that he hated anyone. According to the Bible marriage is between a man and a woman. I agree with the Farmer. I do not judge and any gay couples are welcome at our church. Everyone has the right to be fed the word of God. Just because you don't agree with someone else's belief doesn't give you the right to abuse them in any way shape or form. All businesses have the right to refuse service.
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Jeanetfer Oliver Harris
Freedom of speech and religion is guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution. To deny one person is to open the way for others and everyone to have their rights taken from them. Be careful of where you tread. He should be allowed his constitutional rights like everyone else.
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Kristi Kay Rush
I agree with the judge. A person has a right to their beliefs and their conviction to stand behind it. This farmer has the right to refuse serve to anyone, the same as any other business in town. Our own constitution gives us the right to our religion and freedom of speech. It gives this man the right to his religious beliefs and strengths and the right to say no. Period.
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Stephen Smith
1 Corinthians 6:9
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Minister Butterworth
SS
Right on.
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Curtis Catron
I feel that, personal beliefs nor, political ideology, should influence a person's faith. Same in reverse, a person's faith, nor personal views, should play a part in politics. The Bible teaches to withhold judgements and love each other as if they are your own. And treat each other as you want to be treated. Reap what you sow. And that is that.
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Carol Elizabeth Graham
The Farmer not allowing any marriage on his property that isnt between a man and women is his right as owner of the property and has nothing to do with selling goods at a farmers market. He shouldn't be banned unless he's refusing to sell his goods to anyone since it's in a public setting or he's demonstrating hate for people by speaking, posting or selling items that incourage hate for any group of people.
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John Frederick McDonald
Too many people are expecting validation from others that a dependence. It is important that we as individuals know who we are and not look to or for others too.
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Renee Marie Chartrey
He is up holding his beliefs on MARRIAGE. It doesn't sound like he has not discriminated against anyone purchasing PRODUCE. As a PRIVATE venue, I would agree he can choose what clients he caters to. IF this was spilling into the PUBLIC market that would definitely be grounds to be kicked out of the market. He has the right to uphold his religious beliefs as much as anyone else, and should not be discriminated for upholding his personal religious beliefs in his private venue.
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Joe R Day
115 comments, so far... I often wonder if my words are read and do they have any impact?
In this case, I feel this human has the right to dictate what happens on his property. It's his opinion, his property and, in my opinion, his right to who he serves for weddings. Does he drive through town with signs declaring 'those folks' are terrible or 'ungodly'? If he sells produce on his property (not at the Farmer's Market), does he check for sexual preference before the sale? Doubtful...
I'm an old man (69) and don't believe in the Sky Boss or any other purported gods that many believe are instrumental in their lives. However, I DO believe that folks like him have certain rights, both constitutional and intrinsic. If the guy isn't a flaming anti-gay who shouts his beliefs for all to behold? Who is a 'good neighbor' and cares about the people who use his business?
Even tho I don't agree with his religious views, I believe he has the right to his opinions and his property. If a same sex couple wanted a wedding venue, they know where NOT to go...
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ServantOfJudgement
Joe,
I've got a creator. I've read your words. I can't find any fault with what you've said.
I agree.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There is no physical evidence of a 'Creator'. So, if there is a Creator, S/He has no wish to be directly known.
If there is a 'Creator', your testimony is in direct contradiction to their overt wishes.
That's just the incontrovertible reality.
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Minister Butterworth
Kles,
Incontrovertible. Very nice. I had to look that up.
There is evidence everywhere of a most wonderful creator. The heart that does not believe just doesn't see it. It takes a little faith.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, exactly. There is no physical evidence. Only the consciousness that endeavors to find that truth can SEE it. This makes it an INDIVIDUAL knowledge that can NOT be shared or imposed.
Consider this a creative choice of the Creator. This is significant because it's the religious that put themselves into the biblical box - and the tendency is to then try to put everyone else in the same box, whether they want to or not - and as we just saw that's not how it works.
And I don't think it's just about faith either. Read carefully the biblical descriptions of God. Somebody saw something - and I read of similar contemporary descriptions here and there.
Another creative choice, perhaps.
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Brien
To what "evidence" do you refer to? I have asked for some evidence all of my life. Faith is NOT evidence. Evidence is something you can prove. Faith cannot be proven. I am sorry but just a word alone does not do it. Those with faith say that there is proof everywhere, so show it. Now there is alot of real factual proof that organized religions are responsible for crimes against humanity. Killing in the name of one mythical being or another. That is where I part ways. For all of your belief or faith, none of the believers will admit to the crimes. None will admit to the forced brainwashing. None will admit to the genocide of entire cultures in the name of your god. You may have your faith. If it helps you, great. But please, stop telling people half truths.
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Pastor George Day
Brien,
Your words indicate a deep search for truth. I pray it will be manifested to you :-)
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Lionheart
Faith is all you have, much like the faith of all other religions of this world that many cling onto.
There is actually no demonstrable evidence of a creator, and if there was, what makes you think the deity you believe in is the right one? It might be the Mormon one, or the Islamic one, or the Hindu one 🤷🏼
It seems no omnipotent deity is yet able to prove its real, I wonder why? Could it be that it doesn’t exist 🤔
🦁❤️
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Minister Butterworth
God doesn't need to prove anything more than he already has. If God came today, and proved to all the nonbelievers that which the rest of us already know, what would he have? A flock of the faithless and fearful. What good is that? God wants us to believe in him, to love him, and to choose him over all else. He wants us to have faith in him. Its not exclusive or anything. Everyone has the right to choose God. And as Christians, we spread the Gospel so people know how to be saved. Everyone can choose God. But if you do not choose God, He will not choose you.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You misunderstand me.
I'm not asking for proof of God. I am asking for proof from those who are TELLINIG me what God said.
The burden of proof is on them - and they rarely measure up.
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Minister Butterworth
Kenneth,
The Bible is the proof. You say "they rarely measure up". But to the mind crowded with the misrepresentations of christians that so many take as true, it would be difficult for anything to measure up. You have the knowledge of the Bible, its up to you to believe or not to believe. Each person has free will to make that choice. All persons have the right decide and i respect that right, whether or not i agree.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Reality is a story we tell ourselves.
The Bible is a very rich, old, detailed story told at a time when such things were rare.
They aren't anymore. You may not have noticed, but we no longer live in the bronze age. We have learned some things. We have grown.
But the Bible hasn't. In fact, it's beginning to stink like last weeks trash.
You can continue to make the choice to immerse yourself in a worldview 2 millennia out of date - but you will find that humanity is moving on. Your Jedi mind-tricks and con-games no longer work like they used to. Best of luck to you.
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Minister Butterworth
I know we aren't in the bronze age. Everything has changed and people as well. In a world where everything changes so much, aren't you glad the Bible hasn't? Your so right in that the Bible is rich. It's nice to know that no matter whats going on in the world today, the Bible will be unchanged by evil, politics, money, etc. I,as well as all true Christians find comfort in knowing that our core will not change. Maybe this is why so many haters disagree with and dislike the Bible. Because they can't change it. Humanity is at a point where many believe it has "outgrown" the need for God. The Bible warns of this.
Jedi mind tricks? Con games? There is no trick. Just a choice to be made after you've received the knowledge.
After reading your thoughts, maybe it's not last weeks trash your smelling.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"After reading your thoughts, maybe it's not last weeks trash your smelling." OH SNAP! Had to throw a little personal disparagement in there, didn't you. I'm feelin' the love!
Yes, it's so comforting that the Bible will never change. I mean, there's over 7,000 versions according to a reliable source - but it's okay, those are all 'official' versions.
https://thewitness.org/how-many-bibles-are-there/
And we just talked about this in another Blog post - it's not God people have outgrown - it's all the people trying to impose what they think God says, what they think S/He wants. Now, I have to confess, I don't know anything about God. God is a complete mystery - but I know a thing or two about people. People are right in my face, every day, with their demands, their hatred, their hypocrisy, their con-games. I'd be pretty stupid if I didn't open my eyes and see people for what they often are. This is why I don't believe in Satan. Have you met people? They need no help, believe me. Look at you now, working to validate your bigotry, your prejudice, your hypocrisy, by asserting authority out of thin air - and a dusty old tome.
But none of that matters, does it MRB. It was the same version of the Bible that justified slavery that justifies modern bigotry, prejudice, and misogyny. It doesn't seem like it has to change to support whatever hateful agenda the 'Godly' find appealing at the time. So nice. So useful! OH YEAH - and we're 'the haters' - because we reject your hatred. That's the punch line.
Tell me MRB - does the Bible warn of you? Because if it doesn't, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
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Minister Butterworth
I'm not trying to impose anything on anyone. I talk of God and the Bible. I do pass the Gospel to all persons I can. If you don't like it, you have the right to not read it. Im gonna continue to express my thoughts and opinions for all who WANT to read them.
I've never had a slave. I've never killed anyone. People who pervert the word for sick and evil purposes, and for personal gain, or any other purpose, aren't Christians no matter what they call themselves. I could tell you that im potus. You for sure must believe that. If i claim it, its true. Silly isn't it. But so many believe this way.
I get it that you deal with lots of people. Im not one of them. You can twist my words and the meaning of what I say. If I don't fit the template of what YOU think a Christian is, you can just twist my words and shoehorn me into your little bad box.
JFTR, Disparaging remarks go both ways. My bad, i forgot, its ok for you to do. Im just a Christian.
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Pastor George Day
Well said, Minister Raymond Butterworth!
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
To begin with, you don't seem to have read the article you link us to. Go to the conclusion of it, and it simply destroys your argument on why there are so many bibles. There's only one Bible with a fundamental message, made understandable and accurate through various translations.
You also argue that the Bible endorses slavery. That is factually wrong. Just like homosexuality and divorce, slavery was at some point in history simply a fact of life. It was there. It could not be ignored. What the Bible does is gradually bring freedom in people's circumstances. If you read the letter to Philemon, you will realize that Paul advocates dignity, respect and wellbeing for a slave who had broken the law by escaping his master. Paul also says that slaves and free people have equal rights.
There's no misogyny in the Bible. It is a fact of life that women were dominated by men in many cultures. As a matter of fact, that's a consequence of the fall. Again, the Bible does a gradual job in bringing women to their elevated dignity. Just look at how Jesus treated them - that revolutionized the way Christians thought about women. Paul even mentions some in leadership, like Phoebe.
If you want to debate this stuff, I suggest you do your homework first.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The problem PDG is that you are doing exactly what all the rest do - you are seeing in the bible only what you want to see.
The bible most certainly was used to justify all those things - but don't believe me, let me demonstrate:
Google; "biblical justification of slavery" "women's place in the bible" "traditional biblical marriage"
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Brien
So, you present the book of myths as fact, ok. All christians should be charged with crimes against humanity for the genocidal killings done in the name of your belief, and as stated in your book, the destruction of the world by your god. So you accept all the murder that your faith is guilty of? And you approve?
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Pastor George Day
Brien,
If you were living in the times of Noah, you would be glad the world was done away with! Trust my word!
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Nature by itself is evidence of what is disordered according to the order of creation.
Penis + vagina = preservation of humankind
Some people, such as I, have a condition they are not responsible for - as we have not chosen it. How we relate to that is our responsibility, and no one should make us feel worthless. I get that!
From that to stating that being gay or trans or intersex is within the order of creation, that's a big jump!
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Bond Wright
How do you know God is a "he"? What is your proof?
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Minister Butterworth
The Bible tells us God is a he.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If God has a penis, does that mean he as a navel too?
That's the reason for a penis - right? Procreation. Reproduction results from the process of reproduction.
So, if God has a penis, then it follows that he has parents. In fact, when one actually looks critically at this CLAIM, one wonders if God has semen, if he has DNA, if he has a sister - if he has a wife.
But I get it - nowhere in the Bible is man instructed to think.
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Minister Butterworth
I believe in God. I believe in the Bible. I absolutely believe that God is a Great God. Contrary to YOUR opinions, we are allowed to think.
But why would we want to question God? God is a he. This we are taught by the Bible. Maby He has a family, Maby not. Does it really matter? No. Not at all. We know that He had a Son who died for the salvation of all mankind. This is what really matters.
Whether or not The Big Guy is built the same as us is not a debate I wish to pursue.
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Lionheart
You don’t wish to pursue the topic because of the constraints and fear that religion has a hold on you.
You fear upsetting your god in case you get sent down to the imaginary place that you call hell, all man-made constructs that you have conditioned yourself to believe all because of a book.
Logic, and reason, along with critical thought is the road to complete freedom of thought. You really should try it sometime and open yourself up to a whole new world.
Sadly, your religiously indoctrinated chains won’t allow it.
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Hell isn't a place but a condition of one's being eternally separated from God. Out of a mystery, unfathomable to the human mind, Yeshua went to hell for all of us. He experienced eternal separation from God. Once there, we are told by Peter that he preached the Gospel to those who were there. Now, there is no fear in serving a God like that. Hell is a real choice, but not at all out of fear. We know we are saved by grace if we simply accept it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So it doesn't matter if God has a family - but it does matter if he has a penis.
So says the sex that has a penis.
I have nothing to add to that. But to your one thing that really matters - he only died for 3 days. Everybody else died much worse for much less. And you think you think do you?
Think about that.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
That is incorrect. He died for eternity. He experienced eternal separation from God. Yet, being God himself, death had no power over him.
He was found to have risen on the feast of the first fruits. That is a Moed, an appointed feast.
All the major events in Yeshua's life occurred in connection with the Moadim (plural for Moed).
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
And if God is the answer to all, then S/He is the only question.
If S/He wants us to never grow up, it is alone never to ask that one question.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Jesus had four brothers and at least two sisters. He had a birth mother and a stepfather on earth. If you want his DNA, analyze the shroud in Turin.
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Lionheart
Clearly, you believe everything you read.
Just as a heads up, the Book of Mormon, the Quran, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Harry Potter books, and the Vedas, are also works of fiction, just like the book of horrors that you read.
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
With only one difference: only the Bible has ancient manuscripts still surviving.
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Pastor George Day
God is actually both he and she. In ancient Hebrew Holy Spirit is she.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Intellectual honesty must admit that an order has an intelligent mind behind it. Splash some colors against the wall and get me the Mona Lisa, then I'll give your argument some credit!
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
The Bible mentions atheism only on two occasions, and in both it says: and the fools say there is no God!
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Merlin
As long as vender is not breaking the law, vender has their rights. You don't have to buy from the vender.
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ServantOfJudgement
Coming from the New California, my northern neighbor, it does not surprise me with an attempt to break the law of the land and punish a free citizen. Their governor outlawed buying seeds during the covid oppression. The lying demon dog proclaimed "you can't plant in February anyway". Actually you can. All gardeners and farmers know that some crops get planted as soon as you can till the ground. Michigan is falling into judgement. If this person posted that they didn't like christians there would be no obstacle to a booth at the farmers market. When our servants, which is the government, critique our speech, they defile the laws that put them in the position to do so. When police violate the law they enforce, the punishment should be the maximum. When politicians violate the law they swear to, the punishment should be maximum+1. In no wise should these vile dogs ever govern a single organization ever. They are corrupt, they are lost and they are evil. Let God reward them for their deeds.
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Michael Tracey
One of the founding principles of this nation of ours is supposed to be tollerance. Freedoms for all or none are free. I agree that Mr. Tennes has the right to practice his religion as he sees fit, but that does NOT give him the right to step on the rights of others. There have been many other cases like this over the past few years and they seem to come down to the bigot being allowed to remain a bigot. Fine.
The answer to this is fairly simple, you impact the bigot where it hurts him the most, his pocketbook. Making a conscience effort to boycott such businesses can work especially if people are vocal about why they are using a partiular vendor.
I find the courts support of this sort of intollerance deeply offensive and I will use my vote and my voice to attemp to make changes. Until then I will use my dollars to fight against companies that act this way. (I still don't shop at Hobby Lobby).
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Dr Rohn
To Michael Tracey When we voice so strongly a defamation, such as calling, anyone, a bigot is no different than the intolerance that we are so strongly voicing against. I totally agree with you, if I don’t like a persons stance, if I don’t like the way the person treats others, then I do not do business there. As you said, hurt him in the pocketbook. But I am no different than they if I am a name caller because they do not agree with me. Support and patronize those who agree with you, but do not lower yourself to be as those you disagree with.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That's a morally relativist argument.
Facts matter. Reality matters. Morality matters.
It makes a difference it somebody is motivated by hate, or by economics, or by love. Unless you want to tell me it makes no difference.
If everybody did as you say, it would inevitably result in a fractured society. History proves this. As Nazi Germany showed, there will be winners and losers.
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Dr Rohn
Martin Luther King once said: It would be both cowardly and immoral for you patiently to accept injustice…. But as you continue your righteous protest … be sure that the means you employ are as pure as the end you seek. Never succumb to the temptation of becoming bitter. As you press on for justice, be sure to move with dignity and discipline, using love as your chief weapon. Let no man pull you so low that you hate him. Always avoid violence. If you sow the seeds of violence in your struggle, unborn generations will reap the whirlwind of social disintegration. Kenneth, I was and shall not attaching you in any way and hope you can see that. All I was saying is, your argument was/is sound. I merely pointed out that to use negative monikers it belittles to integrity of the argument.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You weren't replying to me.
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Dr Rohn
OK
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Pastor George Day
Dr Rohn,
It's called freedom of speech.
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Dr Rohn
OK
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Dr Rohn
Tolerance and freedom of choice are not one-sided. Just as someone has the right to choose what sexual orientation they identify with, one has a right to choose who they do business with. I do not, and will never advocate, hatred or discrimination, but I also recognize this to be very easily construed from both points of view. If we are to be tolerant to one’s freedom to choose their sexual orientation, than we are likewise to be tolerant of one’s freedom to choose to do business with someone. This lends credibility also to one’s right to choose not to do business with someone who does not tolerate their choice of sexual orientation. To use religion and or governmental ordinances to discriminate these rights, no matter which side of the table you sit on, is in and of itself intolerant.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Your view seems like intuitive common sense, but history says otherwise.
Tolerating hate doesn't make a society tolerant, it makes it hateful. Germany learned this over 80 years ago.
If everyone did as you say, it inevitably results in a fractured society, and as Nazi Germany shows us, there will be winners and losers.
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Dr Rohn
You addressed this point in your last response to me. Alas, I hear that point, yet build against its gravity.
To be tolerant is to understand that others may not agree yet we can still work diligently to bring light to shine upon their darkness. And it is important we do so by reaching out a hand to help them not to push them down. Words are powerful tools and can be devastating or constructive. It is ludicrous to think that everyone will always think, believe, and carry the same opinions, likes, dislikes, and values, yet we can still work to help bring useful thoughts, beliefs, and opinions to each other. I don't believe in coincidences; I believe that we come in contact with and are engaged in situations to edify or be edified. In the case of ignorance towards opposing lifestyles it is imperative that we take time and due diligence to edify (or be edified). In this scenario (the original posted article) we are asked if this the farmer's religious beliefs should ban him from participating in the farmer's market. It is an assumption of hate, nothing is actually saying this, nor is anything saying he is a 'bigot' merely holds a strong 'Christian ethos' that same sex marriages are against God. To say he is bigoted or hates these people is to say that you hate and are bigoted against anyone who doesn't agree with your 'religious beliefs.' Would you agree with that assessment of you? Do you consider yourself a bigot because you disagree with the farmer? It is important to remain vigilant in our own report that we deny the appearance of evil. Condemnation, profiling, intolerance to another's religious journey are major obstacles to showing the truth that was so exampled by Jesus as he taught how to remain a Spiritual being while living a physical experience.-
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What's the basis of your Morality DR?
Do you agree people have innate value?
This is important, because the basis of the holocaust was the dehumanization of Jews and other "undesirables". Lots of LGBTQ+ went into those ovens.
If you hate Nazis, does that make you a Nazi? Or are you in fact reacting rationally to what started 'small' and 'reasonable' - and grew into a 'final solution' that killed millions?
I do so love it when religious people talk about their bigotry and prejudice. Magically, it has no negative basis. They 'just believe it'. It's in their book, so what else can they do? They are "sinful" - We don't say that, God says it! See - nothing personal. No hate. No dislike, No judgement - but they are going to hell. Like I said - Magic.
Nazis had a book too.
Let's look closely at the definition of 'Bigot'.
big·ot [ˈbiɡət] NOUN a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group:
What do you do when that "antagonism" is based on hate? Ignore it? Not the same thing you are going to say - and you're wrong.
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Dr Rohn
, the farmer is a hate mongering bigot who’s bringing a simple campaign against the LGBTQ+ group (you likely don’t want to hear my views on that social agenda). His simple campaign will of course turn into the new holocaust and millions will be murdered, slaughtered, and experimented on, just like Hitler did.
But seriously, I’ve not once disagreed with your original comment merely brought up a fact (maybe just an opinion) that name calling is relative to the mindset of those who condemn any who isn’t of like beliefs. In my 70 years, I’ve dealt with bigots, racists, and those who campaign strongly and openly against others, who they feel are inferior or evil. One of the main things I took away from those years and all that dealing, I never lower my self to their level in order to make my point. In doing so, I feel that I would be no better than they. This is something that’s important when we are an example of what we know to be the truth. For there’s an old saying, deny the appearance of evil. If I give any semblance of intolerance, then my argument is lessened greatly. It has been said, “whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster” My actual experience has taught me, and I quote Christopher Dawson, (The Judgment of Nations), “As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil, that they set out to destroy.” Kenneth, you asked the basis of my morality? God is spirit, worship in spirit and truth. In all of this, I truly hope you realize I am not now, nor have I ever or will ever attack you. None of my retorts have been an attack.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.nyu.edu/about/news-publications/news/2020/november/conservatives-and-liberals-motivated-by-different-psychological-.html
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Dr Rohn
I smile
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Dr Rohn
I smile
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Dr Rohn
I smile
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Thank you for this article.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Rohn,
Worship in Spirit and Truth is a reference to worship in Wisdom. Ruach (the Spirit) plus the Torah (the Truth) is Lady Wisdom. God is not merely a spirit, but an incarnate God. Yeshua, by taking on the humble position of a farmer, lived through our human experience. Ironically, he's not the kind of farmer that would reject or refuse to have dealings with LGBTQ+. Some nominal Christians just need to apply what they claim they read in the bibles a bit more consistently.
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Dr Rohn
Paster George I do believe you are saying almost the same thing I said, but in different phraseology. Yes, God is spirit, yes God is physical. I have said this about us we are spirit, we are physical, we are made in gods image? Does that not mean that we are spiritual beings having a physical experience? I also agree that God in the flesh having a physical experience would except everyone. Even if he excepted them long enough to show them the error of their ways. I am not, nor will I ever, say that attraction to the same sex is some thing that God would have issue with because I don’t know. The whole concept of God in organized religion in my opinion, is riddled with man-made ideas, prejudices, and profiling. No, I know that’ll get a lot of people up in arms and wish to attack. That’s fine, as you have the right to attack my understanding as much as I have a right to Voice it. But I will say in reference to your response that the LGBTQ+ Is more of an agenda that was spawned from the equal rights movement. Now it’s more a political agenda that it is about equal rights anymore. I am absolutely tolerant, compassionate, and understanding of everyone’s choice. And yes, it’s a choice. But I am not a supporter of any political agenda that declares equal rights, while causing confusion, chaos, and separation. It does not surprise me that my simple response, in the beginning of all of this has turned into some political, quasi-Christian lecture. I will continue to stand in my understanding, that, like God, we are spiritual beings having a physical experience. If we could live our physical experience the way that Jesus did the world would not be in chaos.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Rohn,
I need to disagree with you on the nature of the person of Jesus Christ. He was both God and man, and not at all a spiritual being. He was made of flesh, to the point that even after his resurrection he asked for something to eat for breakfast - clearly, he was hungry.
That Jesus lived a chaste life is no indication that he had no human passions. On the contrary, the human thing to do is to dominate our passions. That is physical discipline.
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Dr Rohn
Pastor, George Once again, I smile and scratch my head at your response. Are you really saying that God was not spiritual? Are you really going to tell me that Jesus did the things that he did as a physical being, and not a physical being that was the vessel for the Holy Spirit? I’m sorry, but I just tend to disagree with you on that one. But I do appreciate you chiming in, even if it was absolutely ludicrous. Nowhere did I say anything about human passions or about being hungry. Perhaps I’m missing something here!
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Pastor George Day
Dr Rohn,
I am a theologian, so once again I am pointing out that your selection of words made it appear that Jesus was alien to the human experience, including sexual feelings and anything physical. That is simply not true in line with the Scripture.
Being physical isn't a hindrance to being spiritual. Quite the opposite. Stoicism claims that physicality is bad. Manicheism is the heresy that, out of stoic thinking, claims that anything physical has nothing to do with spiritual life.
We believe in the resurrection of the flesh, and a God who took on flesh himself.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Rohn,
There is simply a misnomer on your part. Sexual orientation is not a choice one makes. It is given.
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Dr Rohn
Pastor, George Wow! Physical Gender at birth is not a choice. Orientation is a persons basic attitude, beliefs, or feelings, towards a particular subject, in particular here, sex. A person can choose their orientation, they can choose to believe whatever they want to believe, and they can choose to have feelings towards whomever or whatever they choose to have feelings towards. Those are choices, they are not a given! No misnomer here. God is spirit! And I do believe the Bible tells us to worship in spirit and truth. To me, that means worship from who you really are not who you believe you are based on your physical upbringing or based on your socioeconomic or some indoctrination from your peers and your parents or the things that you watch on television and listen to in your music. Or most assuredly, not based on the most popular movement going around at the moment, in this case LGBTQ+. Think about this… they had to add a + to it because why? I have many gay friends, who agree with me. And in the long run, if someone dies and is found by someone with has no clue who the dead person is, they will declare, “I have a dead [male]/[female]” and go on to indicate approximate age and a race. There are only two genders no matter a persons’ preferences.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Rohn,
I am bewildered, I must admit, by how you are taking offence.
My argument, based on empirical data, is very simple. Same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria and intersex are medical conditions. They are not chosen. This is a scientific fact, which you are obviously denying. And your stand is rather alarming as it is clearly affecting your pastoral approach.
I am more than happy to take you through a training session in this field since I have over 20 years expertise in caring pastorally for men and women with gender-dysphoria, intersex and same-sex attraction.
I think you need a better understanding.
And, should you have any query in regards, I do endorse a chaste life and promote it as the only way of life that brings everyone to fulfillment in Christ. Chastity, should you also not be aware of this, is not absence of sexual intercourse.
Chastity is the virtue that integrates our human sexuality in a way that is consistent with our human nature in our interrelations. It takes on three forms:
Married chastity = intercourse between a man and woman in marriage with openness to life;
Continent chastity = refraining from sexual intercourse unless one is married to the opposite sex;
Widowed chastity = surviving the death of a married partner.
In a nutshell, chastity is the virtue that protects the mystery of marriage in view of the eschatological events to come (Eph 5:31-32).
I hope this helps.
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Pastor George Day
Dr Rohn,
I am bewildered, I must admit, by how you are taking offence.
My argument, based on empirical data, is very simple. Same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria and intersex are medical conditions. They are not chosen. This is a scientific fact, which you are obviously denying. And your stand is rather alarming as it is clearly affecting your pastoral approach.
I am more than happy to take you through a training session in this field since I have over 20 years expertise in caring pastorally for men and women with gender-dysphoria, intersex and same-sex attraction.
I think you need a better understanding.
And, should you have any query in regards, I do endorse a chaste life and promote it as the only way of life that brings everyone to fulfillment in Christ. Chastity, should you also not be aware of this, is not absence of sexual intercourse.
Chastity is the virtue that integrates our human sexuality in a way that is consistent with our human nature in our interrelations. It takes on three forms:
Married chastity = intercourse between a man and woman in marriage with openness to life;
Continent chastity = refraining from sexual intercourse unless one is married to the opposite sex;
Widowed chastity = surviving the death of a married partner.
In a nutshell, chastity is the virtue that protects the mystery of marriage in view of the eschatological events to come (Eph 5:31-32).
LGBT people need compassion and unconditional love, not your judgement or patronizing comments. Think this way: what would you do if you were in their shoes? Then lead them as Jesus would.
I hope this helps.
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James Micheal Spoor
I’ve prayed on this as I see merits in the arguments from both parties. The city cannot allow any form of discrimination at a city-sponsored event, including speech. As long as all the vendors are following the same code of conduct while at the event, the playing field is level and the boundaries are intact. However, if some ideologies are welcomed and amplified, while others are banned; it becomes a problem. I pray daily that we can all find more that unites us than divides us. I fear the dark days ahead if we cannot.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"if some ideologies are welcomed and amplified, while others are banned; it becomes a problem."
People like simple, general rules - but do they work?
Treating all ideologies as equal makes all equivalent. Are they?
Does it make a difference if an ideology is based on hate, or on love? Why would it?
Just something to think about.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Love and endorsement don't have to go together. We can disapprove out of love.
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Rev Mark D
Why does this take over 6 years to decide at the local judge level? Did I misread that?
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Nicholas J Page
I agree with Colleen it's getting beyond a joke.Do this don't do this say this don't say that for fear of upsetting people.The world's gone mad.Yes we all have opinions but we need to keep quiet and not make it public.If he only wants to serve non gays then remove him from the market and ban him permanently
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
It is a moral teaching in theology and philosophy: to remain silent just allows the evil to grow. Not to remain silent means you are confronting the sin. I can guarantee that remaining silent allows them to grow in sin and in number. To confront it means to chop it off at the knees. No violence intended. Just an expression.
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Pastor George Day
Keith Allen Steele Eash,
Being LGBT is not a sin. This is the equivalent of being a eunuch. It is given, not chosen. You are jumping far ahead and implying that these people choose to have gay sex. That would be sinful.
But even there, they don't need your judgement. They need pastoral care.
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Dimitria Tsakanikas
I’m still new at this internet stuff. I imagine I have to keep up with the world in order to help people. That is my job long before I found ULC on the internet. As I only work locally from my home. Home is where I lay me head at night. It was someone locally who told me. Mined you the circumference of my local area is wide and far. But before all this I wrote a whole script on what I thought about the farmers market dilemma but some how my lack of internet experience caused it to disappear. God knows my limit when it comes to engaging in the internet. So now I will be shorter with my response. Everyone did the right thing. “ Seek and you shall find”. As you did in the law. Judge lest you be judged is written somewhere I know I didn’t say it. But it makes perfect sense to me. God says love won another as I have loved each of you. You whom I have made uniquely unique into you. I live in all of you and know this. Everything will be ok. It is a sin to worry. Have faith in my plan for you,them, the broken hearted and dearly departed. I AM
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Pastor George Day
Dimitria Tsakanikas,
Well done! You will quickly improve :-)
Welcome to the Monastery!
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Elaine Roberts
If a person(s) does not agree with others regarding any issues whatever, be political or personal, that’s their choice. We are in a demarcate society and freedom of speech. It should NOT affect their business or personal life. So the farmer should continue to sell his produce without any problems. Remember it has got nothing to do with anyone else what another person wears, feels, or think. I believe that people should mind their own business.
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Pastor George Day
Elaine Roberts,
And so should he!
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
Hopefully his stand will be full.But ultimately we will need to form new nations to live in accordance with natural laws.
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Gerard J Babin
Reality, If you don't want to hear the truth; stop pushing idea of entitlement on Bible believing Christians. Your thoughts are not up for debate. Silence is acceptance, GOD does not accept it so we as followers of the truth are not required to accept it.
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Jeanine Varas
This is obvious discrimination in a public place. If said farmer doesn't want to sell to the public, then he should be selling from private property to his preferred clientele.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
He never announced who he would sell to in the market. If a customer doesn't tell him how would he k.ow as a seller of goods.
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TZTX
No the farmer shouldn't be banned, many people and businesses don't believe in God and they aren't banned. People have different views and beliefs. As long as they're isn't intentional physical harm being displayed, everyone needs to just live life. Part of life is not having everyone believe the way you do. G
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JaZe
Disagreeing does not equate with hate. As long as it does not turn into abuse or violence. On your own property are you not allowed to set rules? Religion is not the single reason why some people are uncomfortable with homosexuality, it can take time to move on.
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Timothy D Schultze
I'm not sure why this is such a big deal. First- If the farmer doesn't want to perform/ host/ cater weddings for same-sex couples, aren't there plenty of LGBT ministers and venues to perform/ host/ cater weddings for same-sex couples? Why not support those who support your views/ values? It seems that the farmer just disagrees with certain lifestyles or individuals. That is not hate! The LGBT community needs to stop vilifying disagreement. Hate is emission, not omission. The man is not intentionally inflicting harm on anyone; he is holding to his beliefs, just as another person would hold to their own beliefs, and declining to endorse someone's choices. I'm pretty sure that the farmer knows he may lose a good amount of business at the farmers market. The best way for people to make their disagreement of HIS choices is to patronize a vendor who agrees WITH YOUR choices/ views/ ideology.
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Dr Rohn
Totally agree! Nowhere, other than comments here, did I hear anything about hate, just refusing to accept or support contrary beliefs, his choice. Also, I feel strongly that keeping within the company of like-minded, not imposing upon those who are not, is acceptably useful for those like-minded individuals. It is when imposing upon those who are not of like mind there’s cause for concern. It matters not which minds you side with, once you insist others adhere to your beliefs and values, you are the perpetrator of intolerance and quite possibly hatred.
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Mark Stricklett
What's religion got to do with vegetables?
;-0)
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Dr Rohn
I smile!
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Pastor George Day
Mark Stricklett,
Interesting you say that!
In Italy gay men are called fennels!
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Glen Marshall
Discriminatory acts against some minorities are forbidden by established law, other minorities are not yet as protected. It is a work in progress, with some unfortunate setbacks.
Stephen Tennes religious beliefs are not relevant. He will eventually bear the consequences.
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Tareq Asfour
Nope ! The millennials & Gen Z are overreacting against anyone who doesn’t accept or support their views that is wrong and should be tolerant of everyone’s freedoms and beliefs.
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Michael Hunt
Should we be tolerant of Nazis and their beliefs? Should we tolerate extremists who believe in killing those who disagree with them? If we tolerate everyone's beliefs, we inevitably end up tolerating intolerance.
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Steven McQulan Manning
I stand by the bible. I don’t agree with homosexuality. Or transgender. Mainly because they walk around and flaunt that it’s cool to be gay. I have 2 beautiful 3 year old daughters and I don’t want them being pushed into this nonsense especially while they are and school and they are bringing in drag queens as teachers teaching our children they should be gay like who do you think you are? What gives you the right? I may come off as judgmental but I don’t care. I’m Christian but I’m not perfect I stand by what I said.
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Michael Hunt
Please provide a real-life example of a drag queen being brought to a school as a teacher or any examples of an educator teaching their students that they should be gay. What you are really saying is that you don't want to see gay or transgender people in public because they're offensive to you and that is a belief based in hate. What gives you the right to deny someone from the LGBTQ community from existing in the public square? It's fine to walk around and flaunt that it's cool to be Christian, as so many Christians do, but a homosexual just wants to be themselves in public and that's wrong?
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J. Ash Odinsson
You mean like this event at a school where children were handed sexual fetish material, and toys and explained what the functionality of them was. As the drag queen also showed them how to use them.... But also brought in cookies, and brownies for the kids.
Chicago School Defends Sex-Toy Event amid Backlash over Undercover Video https://news.yahoo.com/amphtml/chicago-school-defends-sex-toy-004827966.html
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Michael Hunt
Okay, first and foremost, nothing in the article you provided has anything to do with drag queens. If you have another article where it outlines a drag queen coming in to this school with cookies and brownies to teach kids how to use sex toys please provide it.
Second, you seem to be ashamed of sex, which I'm assuming because you feel the need to hide children from it. Sex is natural and healthy and proper sex education for high school students aged 14-18, which this school serves, includes education on sex toys so that when some of the students in the class inevitably go on to use them later in life, they'll know how to do so safely. This isn't teaching 8 year olds how to use a butt plug, it's teaching soon-to-be-adults about them.
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Pastor George Day
Michael Hunt,
I agree with you. There should be a responsible curriculum of sex education in every school that is age appropriate.
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J. Ash Odinsson
I don't care what adults do, at all. But a line is crossed when they involve children in it. If they want to have a butt naked parade down main street .... Fine. But if people are committing lewd acts children should not be there.
School is for learning to read, and do math along with a few other basic life skills to prepare people for a lifetime of factory work, and tax slavery.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
This is what's actually coming for your children:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2200169
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
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Pastor George Day
J. Ash Odinsson,
I am a professional teacher beside being a pastor. What you say is complete nonsense. School education is about preparing children and young adults for life. Homosexuality is a fact of life, whether you agree with it or not.
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Pastor George Day
Steven McQulan Manning,
You just sound like a medieval bigoted minister. Being LGBT is scientifically proven to be a medical condition. Have you thought about the message of the Gospel embracing the lost? You simply seem to shun them. I hope your daughters will be as perfect as you envisioned them - sorry to say you might just be disappointed. Schools are a place where pupils and students must be educated about facts of life. Nothing to do with morality.
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Rev Ned
So… LGBTQ+ stuff is bad. As a devout Christian Catholic, are priests abusing kids OK?
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ServantOfJudgement
Ned,
The homosexual priest abusing boys should get a fair trial and then put down. The church members that protect him should get a fair trial and get maximum time permitted. If the Catholic hierarchy protected the priest, close the church or churches that protected the priest and remove the entire organization from 501c3 status. Make an example of any person or organization that shields sexual predators from the law. Make it hurt, I mean really hurt.
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement,
The truth is that the WatchTower (aka Jehovah's Witnesses) are the Christian tradition with most sex abuse cases, and the ones protecting predators with the biblical excuse that the child needs two or more witnesses to back their claim!
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Minister Butterworth
Not all priests abuse children, in fact, most don't. Those who do get a lot of press coverage and make a lot of waves. They give a bad image to those who are true to our calling and to our beliefs.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/religion/nearly-1-700-priests-clergy-accused-sex-abuse-are-unsupervised-n1062396
https://abcnews.go.com/US/300-priests-clergy-texas-accused-sex-abuse-decades/story?id=60777381
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlements_and_bankruptcies_in_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
Do you see what SOJ just did there? Do you see the links I just gave? The ACTUAL commonality with all these sex abuse cases are NOT that they were homosexual, it's that they were PRIESTS - but that doesn't stop SOJ from projecting his bigotry. He's got his scapegoat to deflect blame from his religion, and that's the important thing.
With conservatives it seems every accusation is a confession.
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Minister Butterworth
So you have proof that some priests are sick and dirty hypocrites. These aren't true Christians. True Christians don't do these things. A lot of people in all walks of life are twisted. As well many people are not what they claim to be. The mind, even a small mind, with just a bit of intelligence can see that you can't blame all the good and true Christian clergy for the crimes of sick persons masquerading as priests. This makes no sense at all. Unless your just looking for things to use against Christianity for your own sick desires...or was that your confession....
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There it is again.
Do you see the comment thread immediately above this? Somebody dug up ONE instance of 'LGBTQ inclusiveness class' - without listing any details, such as age of the students, if their parents were informed/gave permission, etc - and you're ready to throw EVERY LGBTQ person under the bus.
But I show you thousands of cases of abuses by Christian clergy, and it's just the confession of sick mind.
Now that's faith.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Not all Christians are bigoted. I hope I am not classified into that category.
I am a gay non-binary man. And yet I abide by biblical principles on human sexuality and still welcome LGBT people unconditionally because I understand the dilemma of living with this condition. But always promote what I believe to be the ultimate way to fulfilment: chastity! But the decision on how to live one’s life is up to the individual, not me. And that decision is not prerogative for me to change how I treat them.
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Michael Hunt
This is just a No True Scotsman fallacy. These people identify as Christians and practice Christian beliefs. If they are not true Christians, there are no true Christians.
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Minister Butterworth
I can practice flying in my chair and tell the world i fly f-16s. Would you call me a pilot? Many persons profess faith in The Lord. Many of these persons then pervert the word for pleasure or gain. These are fake Christians. They know the truth and refuse to live it. There are many who thru misconception due to hearing falsitys from others, can't tell one from the other and sadly, many others just don't care.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
But you can tell, can't you MRB. YOU ar ethe arbiter of holy authority.
Did you know some people sit at their keyboards and practice piety and call it holiness? Many of these persons then pervert the word for pleasure or gain.
But here's the punchline - they ARE the ones who determine reality to the pious. Just ask them.
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Minister Butterworth
I believe that i can tell most of the time but im just a man. So i can and do make mistakes. I have not nor will I ever claim to be perfect. I will continue to do what i feel i have to in life to the best of my ability.
I know people do awful things in the name of Christianity. Your correct on that for sure. I subscribe to the Bible's teachings on this. Hypocrisy is a sin. Using the Word for gain, control, immorality, etc is a sin. I understand that this behavior is wrong but I leave judgment to The Almighty.
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Pastor George Day
Minister Raymond Butterworth,
Well said! Amen to that!
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Shawn Keith Sutton Sr
I agree with the judge. Hey look people do whatever you feel that you need to do with your preference but you services in your gender where there will not be issues. Why not just do that. Keep in mind he didn't make the decision for you to choose how you chose, so why is he getting
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Mary Anne Wilson
Absolutely not. If you stand by the Bible, stand by Jesus' teachings. Jesus wanted us to love everyone, to turn the other cheek, follow the Golden Rule. Mary Magdelene MAY have been a prostitute but Jesus befriended her. Surely, as Christians, we can accept people different from ourselves, as He did.
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Pastor George Day
Mary Anne Wilson,
There is always an underlying truth behind a myth. It is reasonably upheld by scholars that Mary Magdalene was the same as Mary, sister of Martha, and that this was a family of ill repute. Yet look what happened to Lazarus. These were Jesus' best friends!
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John Frederick McDonald
When it comes to business I believe "people" should should do business where they are welcomed. "Human" rights apply to all people.
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Paul Edward Nunis
A 'devout Catholic', who sincerely denies All Saints eve? Odd.
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Pastor George Day
Paul Edward Nunis,
I'm a devout Protestant. That's the dare of the feast of the Reformation :-)
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Peter Senderowitz
As long as the farmer sells to all and does not use hate language in that public space he is entitled to sell his goods. The City Authorities' action in this case show the shadow of a Liberal McCartyism beginning to blanket all over our country
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Michael Hunt
"McCarthyism, also known as the second Red Scare, was the political repression and persecution of left-wing individuals and a campaign spreading fear of alleged communist and Soviet influence on American institutions and of Soviet espionage in the United States during the late 1940s through the 1950s."
This is the same playbook being used by conservatives today against the LGBTQ community by accusing them of being pedophiles and against liberals by saying they hate America and are trying to destroy the country. The city authorities' actions on the other hand, is not "liberal McCarthyism" since it's not spreading fear of alleged actions by conservatives.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Actually it's the left that is now using the McCarthy is in playbook. During the McCarthy era leftist were afraid to be leftist and express leftist views, because, for example they would be blacklisted today we call that canceled, and could not get a job in Hollywood.
Now, and for some time now, to be successful in Hollywood you pretty much have to be a leftist if not a full on card-carrying member of the Communist Party and it's conservatives who are blacklisted or canceled.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I don't see anybody in Hollywood giving all there money away to the state.
Let me know if you do.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well, as you know, modern socialism and communism are founded on extreme hypocrisy. Unless anyone thinks that comrade Stalin was "equal to" comrade truck driver.
It's like AOC and that Talib woman and the other two or three of "the squad" spending between them several million dollars on private security while telling you and me we have to defend the police.
Once the elite in a system have their position secure, by continuing to support and parrot the party line, they really don't care about anybody else. They're very happy to give up individual freedom to the state as long as they can keep what they have
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
WOW! That's sheer genius MRS! You can - and just DID - literally put whatever words you want into the mouth of someone else!
All you have to say is "It's founded on extreme hypocrisy" and black becomes white, night becomes day, up becomes down.
I would SO love to meet your propagandist! That person has it going ON!
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Rev. MichaelRS
Great counter argument you have there...NOT.
How about showing what I said is untrue.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You either get it or you don't - But we all know the Fox News spin.
https://sites.law.duq.edu/juris/2021/01/17/defund-the-police-what-does-it-actually-mean/
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Michael Hunt
The only conservatives I see getting cancelled are the ones who say racist, abhorrent things in public that the general population no longer wishes to accept. That's very different than being put on a government watch list for "showing Communist sympathies" like the McCarthyism era.
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Rev. MichaelRS
What abhorrent, racist things and why doesn't the same standard apply to raging liberals. Joy Behar of The View 🤑 was shown at a party years ago wearing black face yet she gets to say sorry simply sorry and move on. Same for Canadian PM Justin Trudeau. In "93 Whoopi Goldberg defended her then boyfriend Ted Danson when he wore black face at a New York Friars Club event for a comedy roast.
Sure some people didn't like all that but by and large they got to move on. Not so when it comes to conservatives.
So what would be some other racist things; saying that College admissions should be an even playing field based on somebody's academic qualification no matter what race you are.
Saying that the borders should be secure?
Are moving outside of race saying that men can't REALLY be women or vice versa.
What about children being sent home from school because they're flying an American flag on their car or wearing an American flag or a patriotic Gadsden flag on their clithes, because such a symbols of patriotism "offend" some other students.
All that is just barely scratching the surface regarding the war on American individualism and patriotism.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Poor conservatives - always the victims!
Come on every body - let's all cry big fat crocodile tears for conservatives. :( :( :(
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Rev. MichaelRS
No no no . WE don't do the whole victim thing. That move is classically on the Libs.
See Matthew Chapter 7 is always quoted out of context and incompletely for people to justify their wrongdoing. (Not saying you quoted it here but I'm going on to a further point).
The whole context of the chapter has to be read at least through verse 5 (Matthew 7:1-5) and it talks about judging people hypocritically.
That doesn't mean that you have to be perfect but if there is something chronically going on in your life that is similar to the situation that you are rebuking somebody else over you need to get your own house in order first.
What it does not mean though is you're not supposed to judge what is sin or bad behavior, because if Christians cannot judge sin or what is otherwise bad behavior how would they know stay away from it or not do it.
So my point above was not that anybody should cry for conservatives, but rather the standards that liberals apply to conservatives they first need to apply to themselves.
It's kind of like Antifa running around calling everybody "fascist" when they constantly engaged in the most varieties of fascist activites that there are.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. MichaelRS,
Not necessarily. I was cancelled by Elevation Church with no possibility of recourse. They simply cancelled my existence, all because I have an unwanted sexual medical condition. Call that Christian!
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Rev. MichaelRS
Well obviously that church, nor anybody else, canceled your existence because here you are writing that.
Then you make that vague statement about some grievance you have with them and we don't hear from the other side.
And you have a sexual "medical condition" that cause them to excommunicate you or whatever? What would that be, priapism or its opposite E.D. or testicular cancer or P.G.A.D. or a variety of chronic and overlapping STDs?
Because those are pretty much all the sexual "medical conditions" that I can think of and if you had any of those I'm not sure how they would know about it, unless you told somebody. Well, maybe the priapism might be noticeable...or maybe not.
Be that as it may, was whatever they actually did Christian? I don't know. I would have to hear their side of it to see whether or not I agreed with it.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. MichaelRS,
You may not realize it, but your own words just give you away. You clearly show bigotry beyond conservatism.
That I have a medical mental condition is proved by my diagnosis from professional doctors. It causes such anxiety that I have to be on medication. And yet, to your own surprise, I live my life as a man and in chastity, because of my Christian beliefs.
So, I see no ground for the other side to excommunicate me (as you put it) or cancel me (as I say, with more touch with reality). I am simply the real deal.
If you want to do politics, go ahead. Christ didn't come to start a political party! On the contrary, we know well how he treated those doing business at the Temple. That happened in the Gentile area - should you have a proper degree in theology, you would know this prevented the nations to come to Adonai. Jesus was angry at how people like yourself and Elevation, and other conservatives, are making it extremely hard for those like us to come to him through the Church, his new Temple. But guess what? I'm here - I'm ordained - I started my own church, which is rather successful - they are welcome, and we are here to stay!
Deal with it :-)
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Rev. MichaelRS
Once again you come out with the vagaries of somehow this one Church supposedly did you wrong and we don't know how or why and again they're not here to tell their side of it.
And you throw the word "conservative(s)" around like it's a universally accepted pejorative.
Anyway, I'm glad you were able to move on and can live your in this Earthly environment and greater spiritual peace.
We all think we know this truth as imparted by scriptures but the question is do we really?In the end each will be answerable to how they manifested their faith.
For those who were right the reward will be everlasting and for those that were wrong...well, the time they have to think about it in unfavorable conditions will also be everlasting
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Joc James Antonio Anderson
He’s an evil maker! Do not allow him to spread his venom. Just like the baker who refused to make a wedding cake. Everyone has a right not to serve someone because of their religious belief but don’t allow them to proselytize their religion on us! Leave us alone and stick with your kind. And we’ll leave you alone.
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Dr Rohn
Joc, nothing in the article indicated he was “ proselytizing”.
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J. Ash Odinsson
Equal treatment, period. Would this person have been banned if they were LGBT with anti Hetero posts on social media ? Would the judge have heard the case if were the other way around ? People no more choose to be LGBT than they choose to be white, so should all people with Anti-Whiteness posts also be banned, what about anti-Hetero ? If it keeps going in that direction, the farmers market will be empty, then the local vendors and grocers will be publicly, and judicially forced to stop carrying their produce, and then you will all be eating GMO corn and Bug paste. This difference in beliefs is what America was built on. To have neighbors, and adjacent store owners with vastly different beliefs than us. If we start attacking, canceling, outing, and ousting them, then we are no better than a cult that does the same thing.
Unfortunately nobody is guaranteed protection from being offended in public, or in a public forum where Freedom of speech still exists.
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Dr Rohn
J Ash, Right on! Unfortunately we are moving to a society that doesn’t understand this. You mentioned “no one is guaranteed from being offended,” well, I do spiritual and motivational orations, and one of the first things I say, when I stand before the listening is, “I will offend you today, and when I do, I want you to look deeply within yourself and see what it is about what I just said that you own. For if you can’t own it, then it can not offend you.” You are absolutely correct, there is no guarantee against being offended. However, as we continue on the path that we are now on, people will be allowed to dictate what others say, do, and even think. It’s happening, it’s time to be vigilant, to truly understand that people are different with different views, beliefs, opinions, and yes even prejudices. Perhaps it’s time to dust off that copy of George Orwell’s 1984.
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Virginia Joiner
I agree that his refusal to allow same-sex marriages is wrong. However that is on his farm, not in the marketplace.Those are two different businesses he runs. He didn't refuse to sell produce to anyone, so I think that the city had no right to kick him out of the farmers' market. If he were rude to customers or refused service based on sexual orientation, then they could kick him out.
If the ordinance is for all businesses in their county then they can tell him to include everyone or stop hosting weddings on his farm. They then can take action against him if he refuses to comply. If the ordinance only covers the city itself then there is nothing they can do legally about it other than protest or refuse to buy from him.
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Dr Rohn
I would like to wrap up my involvement in this ongoing missive by saying the following. I am not opposed to people, living their life with someone else that chooses to live their life the same. I stand on my understanding from years of involvement that constantly changing religious world. That understanding being, we are spiritual beings having a physical experience. Jesus is the primary example of how to do that. He never once forgot that he was spiritual, God, and did things from that energy not from the physical experience. He told us over and over again that we, too, could do the things that he did, if we realize that it was not us, but that which was within us. That means it is not the physical but the spiritual that does these things. If anyone would like to discuss this with me, personally I am more than willing to share, not to argue. I don’t know if I’m allowed I will put an email here. Just in case you do want to have a sharing. totalthought@yahoo.com
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Pastor George Day
God bless you :-)
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Pastor George Day
For those who are conservative anti-LGBT Christians, I am also a Christian. I am also conservative. I am also LGBT, not by choice.
I am under medical supervision for my distress. Here's something I wanted to share, without prejudice... without politics...
I had another of those dreams this afternoon as I fell asleep. O know God is revealing to me in dreams what I need to hand over to forgive and let go.
I was about to become 19 years of age, but still; with the Fiori family. My doctor, whom I saw yesterday, suggested that the effects that family had on me was the same as a Nazi camp. Again, he has referred me for mental health.
My sister used to go to my foster mother to whistle to her that I had used hot water to wash my hands. I wasn't allowed to use hot water. My sister never had any deal of respect towards me. She was well treated by them. I was the target of their nastiness. My only guilt was to miss my mother, and they constantly made sure I was reminded that she had abandoned me - and I was worth no love because even they never loved me. They only took me on for the money they were getting.
Her husband would knock at the bathroom door every morning when I was washing myself - I wasn't allowed to have a daily shower. He demanded I let him in to use the bathroom, then he would remove the bathroom key.
They had access to everything concerning me. I was violated at every level.
In my dream he was stealing my personal communion stuff, that I use for the church community I am the founding pastor of. Jesus tells me that signifies something deep. They violated me at that deepest level.
Then I had no voice. My vocal cords were being strained as, still with courage that didn't originate from me, I was asserting my claim to freedom against my foster mother - the Nazi lager woman!
I then remembered what she did to me when rumor reached her ear that I was struggling with homosexualot5y and gender dysphoria. She took me alone inside a room in that house and told me: this must end right here and right now, because I have other sons, and this cannot be in my house. But then she took me to the family doctor to disclose to him.
In my dream I felt inspired to ask Jesus: why did she take me to the doctor if I was to refrain from it; why did she put it on me and gave me no help?
I said nothing to the doctor. I felt too embarrassed. I still remember the compassionate expression on his face as he called her in and said: all good; he told me everything. And that was it.
After that she constantly threw threats at me that I would be kicked out of the house had this come back to light.
Jesus made me understand that it wasn't generous of her to take me to the doctor. She only wanted to curb this and get him to shut me up, so she would continue to get the fostering money.
And all this is in the context of Jesus' command to forgive.
I am getting help now from National Health as these dreams continue to occur. I'm not alone.
Abraham offered Isaac on Mount Moriah. He was spared as Yahweh saw Abraham’s faithfulness. A ram was caught in the bush as a sacrifice. But Mount Moriah is only 30 miles away from Calvary, and Jesus was not spared. He is with us in the Nazi camp. Our pain won't go, but it will be transfigured and become radiant like his pain on Calvary. And then it will all make sense.
All we must do is walk one day at a time by faith. I am so blessed that my doctor is also a Christian. What more could I ask as a sign that Jesus is with me?
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Daniel Gray
Well well well, it seems that all the haters in this thread were just destroyed by the courts
"An effort to ban a Catholic farmer from a farmers market because he would not host same-sex weddings on his property backfired big time for East Lansing, Michigan.
In a settlement released Friday, U.S. District Court Judge Paul Mahoney ruled that Stephen Tennes, who owns Country Mill Farms in Charlotte, Michigan, just outside East Lansing, could collect $42,000 in damages and $783,800 in legal fees after winning his six-year court battle, according to a settlement.
The order also states that East Lansing, which singled Tennes out for enforcement through vendor guidelines that equated not hosting same-sex weddings with discrimination, must not apply those guidelines to him in the future.
Given city costs of more than $292,000 through October for its defense in the case, the full bill for East Lansing will top $1.1 million, according to the Lansing State Journal."
https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/2023/12/15/country-mill-east-lansing-settlement-lawsuit-religous-beliefs/71932931007/
Guess that DOES prove to the haters that you CAN follow your 1st Amendment religious rights and there isnt a darn thing that the city/county/or state can do to stop you nor pass any laws forcing you to violate them.
I agree with the Judge. if the owner feels that strongly against it then he should not have to. It is part of FREEDOM. Hate will always be there but if you try to force people to not hate it will make the hate grow stronger.
So you’re OK with racial hate, Jewish hate, disability hate? Religion is a choice. And there should be no special treatment based on religion. Religion also need to get out of healthcare if they have chosen to deny the full gamer of legal procedures like abortions and vasectomies.
What racial? Its his constitutional right to have these beliefs. If you have a problem with that then talk to your congressman and get it changed with a constitutional amendment. Until then the city cannot violate this mans constitutional beliefs no matter if you like it or not
He can have whatever beliefs he wants. He should not make them be known to shoppers and others in the market.
Luke 6:22-23 Blessed are ye,when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. That sums it up nicely.
So what you are saying is everyone looked down on by the church has cause to be happy?
Imagine that.
Kenneth, as previously stated, that was a direct quote from the Bible, Luke 6:22-23.
But I agree with it wholeheartedly. You said everyone looked down on by the church. Where you got that i do not know. The verse states when men shall hate you. It is basically saying when you are persecuted for Jesus namesake, your reward will be great in heaven.
I see.
So those hated by the church - and there certainly are many - are receiving no such counsel.
So they should simply take comfort in knowing they are rejected by hateful people, which can itself prove their virtue?
What do you suppose?
Christians don't hate people. Once more for the cheap seats, CHRISTIANS DO NOT HATE ANYONE. Christians hate evil and they hate sins that people commit, but not the people who do evil and commit sins.
FOR ALL PERSONS, SALVATION IS POSSIBLE RIGHT UP UNTIL DEATH. Christians want to spread the Gospel of Jesus to EVERYONE, to let them know that they can convert and be saved. Christians want to save every soul from eternal damnation. EVERY SOUL.
In response to your Query, when one is fulfilling one's obligation as a Christian, and is hated just for doing Gods work, great will there reward be in heaven.
I hope this helps you find the answer you require.
You are wrong. Christians hate everyone that does not conform to their mythical beliefs. There is about 2000 years of history to prove that. And please, don't try to separate Christianity from everyone else. Same myth, same hate. Now, of you are a business open to the public, then you cannot in any way or form discriminate against anyone in any protected class. That is it. If you want to be a bigot, then go private, non public. You must state as such up front. You cannot be seen as open to the public at all. In other words, keep your hateful beliefs to your own.
Christians love all people. Those who claim to be Christians, but practice hate and bigotry etc are hypocrites, not Christians. Christians hate sin. Not the sinner. This is what history teaches. Christianity is separate from everyone else. Before you go accusing people of hate etc,perhaps you, as well as anyone else who would blindly accuse Christians, read the Bible and get a little understanding of what your talking about. Maybe you should take a look in the mirror and get a grip on your own hate.
Well, you have proved my point so thank you. Your comment "Christians hate sin." shows that christians are taught to HATE. 2000 years of history shows the most evil done in the name of your god. Perhaps it is you that needs to read, and read real history, not the mythical stuff you suggested for me.
Evil done in God's name is nothing more than lunatic rantings of hypocrites. Christians don't hate people. History is full of hypocrites using God to accomplish their own ends. History is also full of people who speak out against Christianity with no understanding of it or what their talking about. Jesus is real. God is real. But you cant blame God for all that sick and/or crazy people do. It is shocking to me that so many people can be so simple. It's no wonder Jesus spoke in parables. That's like me blaming you for taxes.
I am not blaming a mythical, murderous made up being, I place my blame solely on the believers. God saves a few animals including Noah and family, the KILLS the rest of the planet. Not only do zealots believe this dribble, but they fully support it. I can't help but think of Hitler whenever someone uses the "in the name of God" reason to explain away horrible crimes.
Brian,
Your talking about FAKE Christians. True Christians don't commit these terrible crimes in the first place. Persons who pervert Christianity for their own sick purposes are not Christians. People who lack the wherewithal to understand the difference is why true Christians are viewed negatively by so many.
Maybe its intentional. Maybe haters dont want there to be a difference. That keeps it simple for those who are the same.
Ok, let's go with your explanation. What exactly are the true christians doing about the hate and discrimination being done in their name? What have they done about the history of blood shed , all done in the name of your belief? As far as I've seen, nothing. Nothing done then, nothing done now. Why do you think that so many have left organized religion? By the lack of at least acknowledging what is and has been done, this belief seems fine with looking the other way. Turning the other cheek is not good enough. The "real" christians need to do more.
Brian,
No matter what they call themselves, those who do evil in the name of God are not true Christians. Period.
As for the evil and vile deeds done in the name of Christianity, God will be the judge for for those poor souls. The real Christians need to do as is taught by the Bible.
Just out of curiosity, what would you have us do? Tell me what you think would make everything better.
Thank you,
ACKNOWLEDGE the atrocities done in the name of YOUR beliefs, let's start there. Admitting whether or not you "real" christians approve of your deity committing genocide of global proportions, how about that? Forcing your " leaders" of your faith to come clean about their involvement in crimes against the people, how about that? TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ACTIONS OF YOUR BELIEFS, how about that? You asked what I would want done, there you are. No deflecting, no excuses.
I have acknowledged that a lot of people have twisted the word for their own purposes. I do take responsibility for my actions. Im not taking responsibility for actions of every idiot who perverts the word of God.
What if; i were to rob a bank in your name, do you feel that you should be prosecuted for this? That is an example of what YOU are saying. Just let out in a different direction.
As for God and the big flood, He created the world, if He was unhappy with the way it was going i guess God can do whatever He feels is necessary. It is not for me to question The Almighty.
Brien,
Thank you for your blunt honesty.
Minister Raymond Butterworth,
For a start, we could begin by making LGBT people feel truly welcome in the Church. Buit, as things are right now, we are nowhere near that. LGBT people are leaving the church in loads! And that's because we have failed to be Christ-like, who would welcome everyone unconditionally without compromising the truth. But the truth was that he came to save, not condemn. The Church is too often perceived as a behavior modification program rather than the hospital for the sick. As a man with gender dysphoria who abides by biblical standards, I still experience this myself far too often firsthand. So, yes. Brien has a valid point here.
Pastor George Day,
Hello and thanks for your feedback. You have touched on some good points here. First, your absolutely right in that churches need to welcome all persons in, especially those who have yet to be redeemed. Salvation is for ALL people. Far to many persons are turning churches into members only hypocrite clubs. Everyone is valuable to God. To welcome unconditionally without compromising the truth. Well said. We are to love and welcome all persons. We are to teach others the Word of God and allow them to make their own decisions. God will do the judgement.
Also, to many clerical leaders use the pulpit to alienate others and to push their political views as well. I personally teach forgiveness, love, and salvation. Every soul is important to God. He wants us all to join Him and Jesus in heaven. Under the Grace of God we can all make it. If we were still under the Law, i personally wouldn't have a chance.Thank God for Grace.
Having gender dysphoria and still living in accordance with the Bible must be very difficult. I can appreciate the sacrifice. If so called Christians were to live the way Jesus instructed us all to live, lots more people would find their way to salvation.
Amen, Minister Raymond Butterworth!
Brien,
Unfortunately, I must admit that you are pointing out something very real in the Church. We have done a lousy job at tackling that and need to repent. Thank you for bringing it up!
Brien,
You probably wouldn't want to live in the time of Noah with the people that drowned in the flood... trust me!
Brien,
Is Mother Theresa an example of hate?
Brien,
Christian beliefs aren't hateful. Misguided compassion is.
Pastor, I appreciate your responses however you are cherry picking examples of good while I am referring to a couple of thousand years of hate and fear and SANCTIONED genocide all committed in the name of a mythical god. The term was used earlier about "real" christians. Tell me, which are the real christians, the thousands responsible for hate, or the few denying it?
Brien,
There is always a real story behind the myth!
Bingo!
The religious right are largely behind this:
https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
nope thats all left wing imagination
So tell us all DG - what's your opinion of the LGBTQ+?
Stop forcing your beliefs on me and I have no problem with you
Minister Raymond Butterworth,
I stand on the threshold. I am SSA and GID (same sex attracted and gender dysphoria). In other words, I'm a gay man and a non-binary person. I like to say I have a woman (whom I have called Denise) living inside me. She's quite real! And pushing her out for over 40 years in my life has f***d up my mental health! Sorry for being blunt.
I am also a committed Christian, and ordained pastor with ULC and an ordained Messianic Jewish rabbi. I even took the Nazirite vows of chastity, sobriety and service last May with my other church. So, yes. I am mainstream when it comes to human sexuality.
How would you welcome me in the Church? I've had quite a lot of s***t thrown at my face by 'real' Christians, as you call them.
How do you account for that?
I'm not sure if you are a U.S. citizen or not, but we have this little thing called the 1st Amendment to the Constitution that guarantees freedom of speech, and religion. The farmer was denied both. Constitutional law supersedes Lansing municipal ordinances. As far as I'm aware, there are no Constitutional protections for members of the LGBTQ community to get married at a privately owned venue. Race, religion, or disability was never a part of the issue and are irrelevant.
No, since you bring up the constitution, you can't discriminate against protected classes. You may not operate open to the public.
And where in the constitution does it say that? Oh wait, it does not.
@Brien In America you can discriminate against protected classes in some circumstances. This was decided in 1959 and 1964 and still holds true today.
And you approve?
And you are saying we should ignore what the Constitution says?
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Elizabeth, nowhere did he say anything about being OK with hate. What he clearly said was, you cannot force someone not to hate. For in doing so, you strengthen that hate. Much like when you tell your child not to do something without giving a thorough, honest, and understandable reason why not they are going to go out of their way to do it. Don’t think of a pink elephant!
Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox,
That's where you are getting things mixed up. We as Christians are called to give witness of the Gospel. I'm sorry, abortion is murder, since life begins at conception. As a witness of Christ, I'm called to make a stand to defend innocent life. I would do the same for animals, since I'm a vegan too!
EVERYONE has the right to: life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Your petty and ignorant hate, can't get in the way of someone else's L/L/PoH. People need to stop being so egotistically self-centered and think about others.
Mark Gilgen,
Having non-LGBT affirming principles is not the same as homophobia. I am gender-dysphoric (aka non-binary) and yet I hold non-LGBT affirming beliefs.