The wave of book bans sweeping the nation’s public schools just took an unexpected turn.
Thus far, the bans have mainly targeted books with LGBTQ themes to protect children from “pornographic content.” But what happens when the letter of the law gets applied to religious texts?
Well, Utah is now finding out.
Last year, the state legislature passed a law allowing parents to formally challenge any book in Utah’s public school libraries.
That prompted a group of angry Utah parents, who view the policy as tantamount to anti-LGBTQ censorship, to challenge the Bible – arguing that it is at least as vulgar and violent as the other books being taken off school shelves.
A committee review process on the Bible’s graphic content is finally complete, and the verdict is in: the holy book is too lewd for school.
How did we get here, and how are people reacting?
Holy Pornography
Many evangelicals and other conservative faith groups championed the book bans as a necessary measure to protect children.
As a result, hundreds of books have been removed from school library shelves across different states.
However, Utah is the first to see holy texts get included in a ban – and the complaints from parents took many off guard.
Similar to how other states with similar laws have navigated the book banning waters, Utah policy is to immediately remove the book in question from library shelves and send the book to a review board, who will determine whether the book is appropriate for young eyes or not.
“Get this PORN out of our schools!” demanded one of the formal complaints that led to the Bible getting pulled from one of Utah’s largest school districts.
The specific objections? “Incest, onanism, bestiality, prostitution, genital mutilation, fellatio, dildos, rape, and even infanticide."
Opponents listed more than 130 biblical passages they say violate the state’s new obscenity law (two words: Lot’s daughters).
The committee’s review determined that due to its offensive content, the Bible is not appropriate for middle and elementary school students (though it may remain in high schools for the time being).
A Taste of Their Own Medicine?
Based on the tone of the complaints, opponents don't seem to seriously object to the Bible being in schools.
Rather, their request to have it pulled from schools is a protest against the law itself – and its use as a cudgel to target LGBTQ content.
Parents have called it a “bad faith process” that assaults the first amendment rights of Utah children, and queer children in particular. “If the books that have been banned so far are any indication for way lesser offenses,” one complaint reads, “this should be a slam dunk.”
The Bible ban is apparently under appeal. For now, though, it’s absent from school library shelves.
And the story doesn’t stop there.
Banning the Book of Mormon
Until recently, other religious texts like the Torah, Quran, and the Book of Mormon remained on Utah public school library shelves without issue, as they’d been unchallenged.
That just changed. Last week, a parent challenged the Book of Mormon, the foundational religious text of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The ban for that book cites the violence, war, beheadings, and kidnappings found within its pages.
With a months-long backlog to get through, who knows when – or if – the Book of Mormon will return to library shelves. It’s no wonder that some school districts in other states have taken to simply removing books from the school library entirely.
It seems apparent that the challenges to religious texts are a response to the laws themselves, which many critics believe exist solely to target LGBTQ content. But if the laws truly are about keeping violent and sexually explicit content out of the hands of children, well… the Bible inarguably has a whole lot of that.
What do you think – do holy texts like the Bible and Book of Mormon belong on school shelves? And is turnabout fair play?
170 comments
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John Condron
That's what happens when someone actually READS the bible. If they read it carefully, they might even reject the "god of the bible" altogether!
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ServantOfJudgement
I read the old testament carefully for 6 years before moving on the read the new testament carefully. By the time I hit Roman's I was converted. Thank God for that.
If you want them to reject God, I'd advise them to skim and cherry pick. Thats almost guaranteed to cause rejection.
Stay safe
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Amy Varela
When I read the Old Testament, I learned that the character currently known as God in that book is a genocidal, misogynistic, homophobic, infanticidal, racist monster. I also learned that the character known as the serpent never hurt anyone and never lied.
What a relief to know that the God character in that story - as well as all of the other gods in all of hte other myths and fairy tales, most likely, does NOT exist!
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Paul Edward Nunis
The takeaway from Genesis is that the original sin which God couldn't forgive without the proxy sacrifice of a son, was... seeking knowledge. The OT goes on to lay out case after case of people being punished for doing exactly what God ordained. Pharoah, Job, et al. The benevolent Odin clone imagery is well documented to have been edited in later by various ambitious humans.
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Stephanie A Willey
Servant of Justice, much like you I've read the bible through, cover to cover, several times and by by the end had rejected completely the god of exclusion, retribution, and judgement within its pages. The God of unconditional love is not described in the old testament. That said, that man from Nazareth's words and lessons on the other hand really connected with me and over these many years have helped me become an ardent humanist and defender of equal rights. My now many years of study of the origins of the Bible, its many translations and interpretations, and especially the books and writings that were conspicuously left out of it was enlightening to say the least.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ServantOfJudgement Why did it take you six years to read just part of the Bible?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
There were a a lot of things that got in the way…
Words
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr z You musta took the skim & cherry pick approach. Like I said, it works well for the blind and cosmically wise.
Can't pronounce the name, skip it. Can't pronounce the word, skip it. Can't pronounce the place, skip it. Can't find the place, skip it. Don't know a word's meaning, skip it. Don't understand it, skip it.
I think I got all of Dr Z's guide to better document reading though I may have missed on or two steps. Do this and you can read the Bible on the weekend and be ready to insult believers by Monday afternoon.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You have quite an imagination SOJ - but the truth is a lot of people have looked MUCH closer at the Bible than you ever have, or ever will.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/historical-criticism-biblical-criticism
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yeah, my girlfriend in college got deeper and deeper into the JesusFreak movement back in the 70s. Started out with bible studies in the dorm. Then church on Sunday where they spoke in tongues and danced in the spirit. For about 3 years I went 2-4 times a week to this nonsense until I finally just bailed.
So I’ve had plenty of exposure to the bible and what’s in it. Male bovine fecal matter.
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ServantOfJudgement
Douglas I came at it as an atheist/agnostic. Skeptical, doubted the translations, written by man inspired by god, etc so I used 6 Bible versions/translations and read it like a technical manual which I'm accustomed to. I read until I understand the subject/chapter as best i could and then a couple more times. When I'd encounter events described or prophesied I'd turn to secular documents as a reference against what the Bible says and when it claimed to say it. I wanted to be fair to the creator if there is one and I wanted to be fair to my own logic and reason. Some translations leave the interpretation to the reader and some interpret for the reader, as all atheists know happens. I even compared some of the biblical laws we call ridiculous to our own current laws. I canvased the document. Took me a long time. I'm 2 years into the New Testament using the same fashion. It's a very God Book and it's a very Man(kind) book. That's the short and skinny.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ ServantOfJudgement. You do realize what you did is the wrong approach and is meaningless. Why did you not use the source documents, the Oxyrhynchus Papyri or the Didache? You do know the Oxyrhynchus Papyri contains the original writing of the Bible. All you were doing was looking at man’s translation into English by different men who we know made mistakes and embellished the stories. Are you going to do the same for the Book of Mormon and Quran? Both of those books are from God.
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Amber Fry
Depends very much what a person is trying to get out of it. What that way of going about it does is show a person that yes indeed there are a lot of mistranslations of it... which should be known as well anyway.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So - you don't mind a personal question, do you? - why not go to seminary, join the priesthood?
Why wind up here?
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ServantOfJudgement
Yikes, with risk of being bated...
Im here because I want to hear the opinions and perspectives of those I disagree with. Also, this is a good place to take the temperature of our country. I offer thoughts and ideas. Sure they're ridiculed and rejected by most but someone is reading, someone that has an open mind and wants sincere truth, like me. Maybe my perspective can bring a different light to the subject as others do with my perspective. Maybe I can learn to communicate better if nothing else.
Preacher? Ha! I'm a little rough around the edges for that. I don't really belong anywhere. Too harsh for churchy stuff and too Believer for Marylin Manson concerts.
I'd focus more on serious offenses against God from the church than I would from non believers, like Jesus said we should do. He wants the church orderly, righteous and unified, which it is not. At least that's how I'm reading it. I'm not the guy to fix it, Im just a chump from Ohio.-
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If you know anything about me by now, you know I don't need to 'bait' anything. If I have something to say, I say it - no 'bait' needed.
Thank you for your reply. I'm sure we will learn a lot from each other.
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Rev Mark D
Finally someone actually read the thing. And did the right thing. Will wonders never cease? I'm sure it was just a one-off, maybe somebody had too much peyote on board.
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Robert Hauck, MD, FAAP
The banning of religious texts is the logical result of the new book-banning laws. Does not The Law apply equally to all citizens, all books, all bannings?? I like the goose and gander aphorism.
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Pamela Shuttleworth
The anti-everthing didn't expect this. Good for the parents!!! Well done!!!!
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Pamela Shuttleworth
The anti-everthing didn't expect this. Good for the parents!!! Well done!!!!
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Joe Stutler
When the woo-peddlers push for book banning/burning, but their own "holy" books are full of filth and violence..... 🤣🤣🤣
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Larry Mager
Mr. Eagle Spirit, re; Your above attitude: AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's about time they got a taste of their own medicine!!!!!
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Joy
HAHAHAHAHAHAAA!! I love it.
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Brien
Wow, so where are all of the myth worshipers, got nothing to say? Remember that situations like this are of your own design. Kinda funny how stupidity bites you in the butt. Peace
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yep, I’m scrolling through the comments looking for some Praise Cheeses on this action!
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Daniel-David
So, is the story of George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, the same as Jesus healing people and raising his friend from the dead the same thing?
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John Condron
If you mean "fiction," Daniel-David, then 'absolutely yes."
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Brien
Now John, it is not really the same, Washington did not raise the cherry tree from the dead 🤣
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John Condron
Yes, Brien. You are right. Chopping down the cherry tree is actually plausible, while raising someone from the dead is flat impossible.
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Lawrence A. Benson
Yes and Yes.
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Kenneth Eagle Spirit
WOW! I've read all the comments so far and must say I'm impressed by the lack of Bible thumpers coming to "gods" rescue. Somehow their lack of vocalization strikes me as funny. lol
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It's a conundrum they've created themselves. I think that isn't lost on even them.
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ServantOfJudgement
Lol, God doesn't need any rescuing, we do. I'm not too worried about Bible banning, it's been happening since there was a Bible. It's quite safe. In north Korea they just sentenced an infant to life in prison because it's parents owned a Bible. Besides, if a parent wants their kids to read a Bible they probably have a spare one laying around at home. Same is true with lgbt2qia+map parents. If they want to teach their kids all the kinky sex tricks and raunchy filth, they can do that home too.
Soar on eagle
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Pastor Xal
I very much respect your explanation of how you studied the Bible. Research is powerful. However, as a GLBTQ Ally, I find your uneducated generalization offensive. GLBTQ parents teaching their children "kinky sex tricks and raunchy filth"? That's so far from true. GLBTQ parents encourage their children to be themselves and not feel pressured to do ANYTHING because all their friends are doing it. Or adults in authority positions insisting on something they have been taught otherwise. No Uncle Creepers, in other words.
How many sex tricks have you taught your children?
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ServantOfJudgement
Xavier,
My reference was to the sexual material presented to the students. Some of it is very very instructive and pornographic. I do not think homosexual parents desire this teaching, no more than a heterosexualparent does, rather if they defend that sort of teaching in school, they can do it at home, like they should with the bible. That's all.
I taught my kids one sex trick......don't do it till you're married, for the heart's sake.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Servent, have you actually read any of the books to which you refer? Not one of them teaches anything close to sexual acts. Where do you get this stuff? “Some of it is very very instructive and pornographic”? Not even close. Some of the books they claim were in libraries were not actually there. You’re spreading the lies as much as the conservatives.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yeah, well, I read something once. Can’t remember where. Where was that?
It went ‘The sinsvif the father shall be visited upon the children for (some ridiculous number) of generations. “
Oh!! The bible.
Yeah, but punishing the children for something that the parents did IS totally insane, huh?
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr z
No offense, I'm only getting into biblical meanings to demonstrate where and how attests miss the meaning. You brought it up.
The sins on the father being visited upon the children simply means: If my father was a drunkard, I'm likely to be a drunkard and naturally, if my son sees me this way, he's likely to be a drunkard. That's not silly, it's practical advice and insight into the human mind. It's also true and demonstratable. Children imitate what they see.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
No offense, but you seem to be putting a lot of spin on that particularly hateful statement.
It actually reads “ Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;”
And Mr. Finger Snapper is lawing down the law. And this is his first law and he sets the tone real quick. That statement is a consequence specifically about worshipping any other god. Because, and he says very quickly that HE’S A JEALOUS GOD and gets all Columbian mafia about, threatening your family AND FUTURE DESCENDANTS if you do worship other gods.
You can spin that warped record any way you wish but the original version is the vengeful god of the old testament that has gone to therapy. Post-therapy is called The New Testament.
Of course it’s all Bronze Age goat herder drivel.
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr z
You know the wates are choppy when an aheist is trying to school you in Bible verses!
You got it quoted right, for sure, let me explain again. You brought it up again.If a person loves God and chooses God he is likely to drop the sinful behavior God hates. If he drops the sinful behavior he is not likely to pass/teach it to his children. Hence, the line of sin is broken. Rather than the sin, the child will now learn godly things from the parent.
One that hates God, in favor of alcohol lets say, he had no desire to cease his sin much less recognize it. Therefore his children will learn his sins and repeat them, for a few generations. Because the sinner is the one teaching sin to his child, against God's wishes and warnings, the guilt is on the sinner, not God the rule giver.
There are always exceptions as we know but this general rule is in play today, its demonstratable and reliable. You don't need to believe in the Bible or God to be under its laws of cause and effect. This type of law requires no intervention from God. Like a ball falling from our hand upon release, it just happens.
Let's save God's jealousy for another day....
Stay safe
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yes, if a person doesn’t live a decent life by following the ONE commandment (Try not to be an a**hole) then their life is going to have problems and this will likely continue in following generations. That isn’t religion, that’s sociologybandbpsychology. We were talking about god punishing the offspring of a ‘sinner’, and I said that this wasn’t about psychology it was god being a peckerwood. That the bible said god would do this for having other gods before him. Just gave you the scripture to prove my point. God was a psychotic mass murderer until he apparently got some therapy. Not exceedingly good therapy because when he came out with his new book the gist was that he was going to save his creation by raping teenage virgin to give birth to himself as his son and then let some people kill him. But not forever, just a long weekend, and when he came back to life, did god completely die, THEN he would be able to forgive people.
People who believe this nonsense do so because they got it from their parents. Poetic.
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Maggie McD
I read your thoughtful reply at the end of the chain about the time you spent studying the bible, and I was impressed. And then I saw this. Your statement here demonstrates the same cherry picking you accuse others of doing with your text of choice. In all of your studies, did you ever look up the word "hypocrisy?"
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ServantOfJudgement
Maggie,
Yes, I've looked up the word hypocrite. What I found is that every single soul capable of action and communication is a hypocrite. There are about 8 billion hypocrites on the planet currently.
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John Condron
I suppose that is true, "ServantOfJudgement," from a certain point of view. Of course, if you do that, the word becomes meaningless.
Even from that perspective, some people are far more hypocritical than others. I do believe that was how Maggie was using the word.
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Stephen P Singleton
Turn about IS “fair play”. As far as I’m concerned, the bannings are unconstitutional. But wait. Are we talking about physical books? Do kids currently in school step into an actual LIBRARY? We dragged our youngest granddaughter to libraries and give her books as presents, just so she knows what they look and feel like, but she was born in ‘04. The “4G Generation. Their Moms had 4G iPhones when they were born and they were using touchscreens before they could walk. The kid just finished her first year at San Francisco State and you think she lugs around actual textbooks??? It’s all on a Tablet. While those whiny parents are worried about books, their kids are on the Social Media, taking over the Planet! As an Educational Psychologist, I think the best education is for a kid to read a challenging book WITH the parent there to discuss issues of concern. For the kid who actually wants to read and likes it? Their Mind is already beyond your control, Mom.
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ServantOfJudgement
I wonder if they'll ban newspapers, current events and the sort. That stuff is filled with rape, murder and violence with pictures to prove it. Will they be able to discuss human history? Everywhere we are you'll find rape murder and violence there too.
We shall see.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Well said.
Perhaps the Christian Taliban needs to rethink their book bans,
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John Condron
Actually, "ServantOfJudgement," several states have already moved to ban discussions of current events in school. Florida, for example.
Forbes reports that Oklahoma Senator Rob Standridge has proposed the "Students’ Religious Belief Protection Act," which includes an option to sue teachers $10,000 for contradicting a student’s religious beliefs. That would effectively ban ANY discussion of science, current events, etc., because any fact is going to contradict SOMEBODY'S religious beliefs.
Personally, I am hoping this law goes through, as i am looking forward to watching the lawsuits by members of The Satanic Temple when their kids are taught things that contradict one or more of the Seven Tenets (https://thesatanictemple.com/blogs/the-satanic-temple-tenets/there-are-seven-fundamental-tenets). For example, the fifth Tenet, which states that "Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs." Or the Third Tenet: "One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone." This should be lots of fun!
BTW: Why do the most opinionated people never seem to post under their real names?
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Michael Holland
Ban them all and let's see how the dumbing down of America goes! You think things are bad now, just wait until people can no longer read or write or have thoughts for that matter! Of course im being radical but you get the point! We have a governor that is so caught up in social matters that no one cares about our home insurance, the homeless, senior care and the list goes on! Terrifying!
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Michael Holland
I hope Ron Desantis book is next! He involves himself in culture wars and floridians suffer!
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Daniel Todd Kamm
People have always been unprepared to deal with human behavior. Especially their own. It's always someone else.
The fact that a bunch of people over a very long time wrote down and handed down both poems, songs, and traditional stories, and included the historical smut of the day is not much different than a walk across the news and other junk on the internet today... a little smut back then is no different than someone writing a little handed down historical smut now.
My question has always been: if it's smut, well, either g-d has a great sense of humour, or the "Word" is not "THE" word?" Preference to the latter.
The bible has amazing stories, great underlying poetic , musical, philosophical and some spiritual qualities that can benefit everyone just as any other religious writing or even a pulp fiction novel can.
Why it's not so beneficial to those whose concrete thinking predisposes them to really believe g-d wrote a book and it's the A and W? (That's alpha and omega to those who just had a craving for root beer)?
I don't know. I'm sure it has some developmental underpinnings.
Still,
If g-d wanted people to have the bible, or any other sacred writings, g-d would have independently written, published and distributed it all without the middle men. End of story.
Happy Friday eve!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ The bible has amazing stories, great underlying poetic , musical, philosophical and some spiritual qualities that can benefit everyone just as any other religious writing or even a pulp fiction novel can.L
Any valuable lessons in the Goat Herder’s Manual are far offset by the general stupidity elsewhere in the book. Take the 10 commandments. Parse that, almost the entire book, down to…
Try not to be an anal sphincter muscle.
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr Z
Just to keep it square, if you parsed down the 10 commandments it would be
Do NOT be an anal sphincter muscle to Me(God), Man or yourself. Not a request, an command.
That's why you guys cant comprehend the document. You don't believe it. It's amazing but true, you can't even grasp the 10. Of course it's dumb to you. Just like astrophysics is dumb to native tribesmen in the Amazon. And why would an Amazonian tribe care about astrophysics anyway, they dlready have all the answers they need.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There is a certain mentality that is frightened and small, and compensates for this by working zealously to define the universe and control everything around them.
It used to be that the 'moral' nuclear bomb was "You're going to hell!" This would trump any argument, any alternative perspective, and establish moral authority without question.
Unfortunately for the religious, over time people have learned to laugh that off, so they had to devise new weapons of mass condescension, such as "A zygote is a person", and "sex is evil", and "you're the anti-Christ". With such delusions as "The LGBTQ+ are subhuman deviants", and others, many people are thrilled and elated that they have once again established moral authority, to look down on and oppress, no matter the facts or reality.
It's not a bug, it's a feature when people can't separate their POVs from reality, their biases from facts, their beliefs from their actions, and work to remake the world in their forgone vision of it. Conservatives today, and particularly the religious, truly do believe they are the ultimate and definitive human beings, and anyone who doesn't think just like them needs to shut up and live their lives to please them.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The point was about the bible being full of great stories, pietry, etc. Nothing in there that bears noting that can’t be summed up with TRY not to be an arse. Even the bible states that everybody sins (makes mistakes). So your Mr. magic needs to chill, wouldn’t you think? It’s his design flaw. Even you believers think you need to pray and ask forgiveness. The catholics have had that into a central part of their nonsense. (Though the way the head honcho dresses is out there. And they don’t approve of gays?)
So, no, sticking with making the effort.
Try not to be amale reproductive organ.
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ServantOfJudgement
You mean if you were God you'd do it that way, chop the middleman. I'd do it differently than the both of you. There are over 6 billion people and if each were God in their turn, there would be 5,999,999,999 people that would disagree who disagree with the God of the day.
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John Condron
Yes, "ServantOfJudgement." If I was an all-powerful, all-knowing, beneficent god, I would do it differentily.
Specifically, i would ensure that ALL of my people heard a coherent version of "the truth."
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
@ John Condron - yes, If your goal was unchallenged obedience. But what if 'The Father' wanted his children to grow up, and learn to think for themselves? Would what essentially amounts to coercion be the way to go then?
Perhaps, the way things are is exactly the way they are meant to be.
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John Condron
What in the bible leads you to think that the god of the bible wants his children to grow up and learn to think for themselves?" The story of Adam and Eve being kicked out of the garden for thinking for themselves would certainly suggest otherwise. The story of the flood is further evidence to the contrary.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Good questions. I will do my best to answer. You might not like it, but remember, you asked.
The foundation of the God concept is, IMO, an answer to the question of existence. Where does it all come from? The Bible is what you might call Cosmology 1.0, for an arbitrary and meaningless term, but my point is we've learned an immense amount since it was written.
So I do not turn to the Bible for answers. Those people have been dead for millennia. I find it interesting that the same people who say "We aren't responsible for what our ancestors did" then demand that we think like their ancestors - but I digress.
We know vastly more now than we did then, but we still don't know the answer to the question of existence. We can, however, take a fresh look at the question using tools we've learned in the meantime.
IF a 'God' created the universe, then it is apparent they created it to serve their purpose. We now create universes all the time - in everything from mechanical systems to video games - and so we have some idea of complexities and complications involved with universe building - not on the same scale, of course, but a much better idea than we had thousands of years ago. For example, we know that even the tiniest detail can make enormous differences. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_constant
We can take this principle of universe building and use it to analyze the universe's designer's purpose through observation and a series of thought experiments. For example, we can observe that in general, the universe seems to encourage awareness - that the more 'aware' we are, the more successful we are, personally and as a species. One can go quite far on that observation alone, and consideration of all it's metaphysical implications. It's the kind of thing that people generally don't think about, pretty much take for granted - but it is a ready result of the line of questioning that comes from thinking about the universe as a system, as us as part of that system, and what principles are built into the very fabric of the operation of that system. It is, in a word, just looking around.
I am hopeful that one day a science will be devised that can test such a hypothesis.
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John Condron
(Taking) a fresh look at the question using tools we've learned in the meantime" is what we call "science." Nothing we have learned in the meantime would lead any reasonable person to conclude "god."
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes and no.
Science as it is currently defined does not reveal the source of the Big Bang. It falls short. Whether one takes this to mean there was simply nothing before the Big Bang, or science is inadequate as it currently is to answer that question is a matter of personal POV, without further information.
Anecdotal evidence is no evidence, according to science, and that makes sense - but I'm thinking a mountain of anecdotal evidence bears some consideration. Metaphysical phenomena has always been a mainstay of the human experience. What's it really about? I think that's a fair question - and let's be honest, if conventional science is failing, perhaps it's not a waste to consider alternate theories that could possibly point to closer conventional investigations, such as thought experiments derived from the supposition of a 'Creator'.
Science has often progressed in this manner. That's all I'm saying.
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John Condron
No, Kenneth, What you actually said was "The foundation of the God concept is, IMO, an answer to the question of existence."
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes - and?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Or you could take a word from your own book.
God created the universe? How is then is that not the True Word of God? Because it cuts out the human element?
Let's all just take a minute to open our eyes and look around us.
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Rev Mark D
I think you need to submit your answer just above, over to chat GPT and ask it to translate what you just said. Because I don't have a freaking clue and I would like to know what the next stage of evolution has to say about it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Who are you talking to?
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Rev. Kev
The Bible really does have a lot of adult content in it. Things a child might really question if they read it through. A lot of parents saying "But it's God's Word" might not honestly know everything in it. Most folks don't know there's a list of rules the Bible literally calls "the ten commandments", and they aren't the ones on all those nifty tablet shaped plaques. Number 10 says not to boil a baby goat in a pot of its mother's milk. Useful advice for the modern chef!
But banning it, and other books, isn't the way to go. On the contrary, I support children reading these books and exercising their developing critical thinking skills to ask questions and dig deeper (with the guidance of a trained educator with as few biases as possible). We need less politics in schools and more well-educated teachers who aren't hampered by rigid leaders looking to take us back to the 1700s.
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Rev Wayne Steven
Hmmmmmm! Seems like this happened in history before thinking primarily about the Nazis before world war II in Germany when they banned books Bibles I really think it was still can we need to put a stop to some of these book bannings as long as people are society can destroy freedoms of people it is not a good place I hope I'm not speaking out online at this point but may God help us all
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@Rev WS Wow! Did your school ban the teaching of punctuation?
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John Condron
I think I agree with you, Rev Wayne Steven, though I'm not sure, because your post is so jumbled. Punctuation would be really helpful. Re-reading before clicking the [Post Comment] button would also help.
I am not sure whether you claimed that the Nazis banned the Bible, because of your word jumble problem. But... according to an article in The Journal of Modern History, the Nazis did burn thousands of copies of the HEBREW Bible in hundreds of communities across the Reich.
I can find not a single report of Nazis banning or burning the CHRISTIAN Bible. That makes sense, because the Nazi party self-identified as a christian group.
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Minister Wilson
Hello People,
Well then, the next "logical" step would be to ban all religious instruction for young children in order to "protect" them from all this biblical smut.
Public and Religious schools should not be allowed to teach this filth to young children and indoctrinate them by forcing these teaching down their throats, right?
If Transgenderism is a believe system so to then is religion. Religion or those claiming to be part of some specific religion are just as much of a "social construction" as gender or racial categories.
I am considering starting a Go-Fund me page or Patron to begin a project to remove all the offense and out-dated text from scripture, in order to make the "book" more palatable and avoid its continued "banning" across the nation :) How many of you would support this idea, just curious...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Sanderson,
Thank you great source. Make sure you continue to read and engage with more current material as well.
If you ever need detailed information or would like to discuss some of your findings I am more than happy to talk and engage with you about those topics.
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I would love to see whatever information you might have.
Feel free to post it here!
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Minister Wilson
Okay,
Asexual and Non‑Asexual Respondents from a U.S. Population‑Based Study of Sexual Minorities [Archives of Sexual Behavior (2020) 49:757–767 https://doi.org/10.1007/s10508-019-01485-0]
Sexual and gender diversities: Implications for LGBTQ studies https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00918369.2018.1528079
LGBTQ youth activism and school: Challenging sexuality and gender norms https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/HE-10-2016-0053/full/html
RETHINKING SEX AND GENDER https://files.libcom.org/files/rethinking_sex_gender%5B1%5D.pdf
Sex and gender analysis improves science and engineering https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/bitstream/handle/10871/39882/2018-07-09080D-1%20Schiebinger%20Sex%20and%20Gender%20Analysis%20(AAM).pdf?sequence=2
You can start here, and if you have any specific questions please don't hesistate to let me know. I tried to find sources that did not require access to an institutional library.
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thank you for the information.
Unfortunately, my time is very limited at present. Perhaps you could explain to me what you want to impart to me through these references?
That would be very much appreciated.
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Sanderson,
This is truly funny because I was going to ask you the same thing when you originally posted me this;
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
and nothing else...
So, what was the point you were trying to make in your original post?
Take Care, Minister Wilson
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
My apologies.
I posted the link in response to "If Transgenderism is a believe system so to then is religion. Religion or those claiming to be part of some specific religion are just as much of a "social construction" as gender or racial categories" in your OP.
I post that link often as a strong argument for the legitimacy of gender and sex diversity. Many people doubt it's existence, as you remark, and this explores the reality in some detail.
Thanks again.
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Merlin
Look at the Group who canonized the Bible that has been responsible for the greatest extermination of souls in the name of heresy. Intolerance is the beginning of most beliefs that are "Doctrine"based
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Cheryl Pettijohn
I do not approve of banning books at all. However, if you are going to write a law to ban queer/black/brown leaning books then you have to accept the idea that books that support your own agenda can be banned as well.
Virginia tried to ban the book Gender Queer. It hasn't happened yet, though I expect it to. On the plus side, Virginia's efforts put a book on my radar that I hadn't seen before. I bought it, read it, and gave a copy to my daughter. There were parts that made me uncomfortable, but overall it was a valuable resource.
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Martin L Stigleman
Well, we should really look at this in a rational way... What would be the harm in allowing young, impressionable children to read a book that tells them that if a voice speaks to them and tells them to murder someone, they should follow it? What harm does it do for a child to learn that, if someone does specific things, they should throw rocks at them until they are dead? Shouldn't they be able to learn about rape, incest, and physically beating those they don't agree with? I mean, really...why is it a bad thing for them to know that, if a disembodied voice tells them to stab their sister, brother, or their child, they should be willing to do it without question?
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Amber Fry
Of course. If they are insisting certain subjects have no place in a school then it should include the holy books. To be fair they shouldn't have been in a public school to begin with. Private religious schools, sure, schools that focus on religious comparisons, fine, but public schools are government agencies and if they are going to be true to not favoring one religion over others or against any one over others then they shouldn't be in there at all anyway.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Thanks to the bible book ban there’s plenty of spare toilet paper that can be made available for recycling!👍
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Trust me, Olive. It makes good rolling papers too.
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Austin B Beamer
It's a Holy Spirit thing. And if the community is not based in that thing, no faith based material will survive. America continues to surrender itself to the Hounds of Hell. And they will severely pay for their foolish ignorance. Go ahead... keep taking the Creator of all things out of your communal lives. You will find out quickly and dramatically that ALL OF HEAVEN AND EARTH STILL OBEY THEIR MASTER.Even if His greatest creation that He made Heaven and Earth for, won't!
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Geoffrey C. Olive
Posting the same ignorant nonsense four times doesn’t make it correct, just four times more ignorant and nonsensical!
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John Condron
Comment removed by user.
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John Condron
Wow, Austin! You really don't think your "god" is very powerful at all. Do you?
Do you really believe it would be possible to "(take) the Creator of all things out of (our) communal lives?" You claim that "ALL OF HEAVEN AND EARTH STILL OBEY THEIR MASTER." That implies he's a pretty powerful guy! How could any mere mortal remove an all-powerful god from our world? It's almost as if you think your god is pretty pathetic.
Ye of little faith!
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ServantOfJudgement
Back when there were no school shootings, the classrooms were ofen held in a church, especially outside large cities and in poor communities that couldn't afford the cost of building a school. Once the shift from church to public schools took place, God was escorted out and Satan took his seat in the classroom. Naturally with no creator present, life lost its value so school shootings and mass shootings sprouted up. Poor fools cant see it, they don't want to see it. Teach a kid he's an animal and he'll behave like an animal. Shucks, now they literally are animals, the so called furries. Lol.
The only obstacle to truth is the assumption you already possess it.
Stay safe
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Satan seems to occupy an inordinate amount of space in your world.
You know I thought of becoming a Christian once, but I was disabused by my religious friend when I brought it up. He chided that I couldn't become a Christian because he knew I didn't believe in Satan. "To be a Christian," he proclaimed, "You have to believe in Satan."
That's how I know who the REAL deity of the Christian church is.
Also: https://www.npr.org/2021/03/03/971854488/did-record-gun-sales-cause-a-spike-in-gun-crime-researchers-say-its-complicated
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John Condron
You are very amusing, "ServantOfJudgement."
So... school shootings happen today because "God was escorted out and Satan took his seat in the classroom." That, of course, would mean that we have never had a shooting in a church. Right? Because your god is present in church, so would never allow such a thing to happen. Right?
Your most ironic statement? "The only obstacle to truth is the assumption you already possess it." That, of course, is very, very true. But it is religion, not science, that claims to already possess the truth.
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ServantOfJudgement
John,
Everything science taught me about gender as fact when just a boy is no longer scientific fact. I was tested by the state to make sure I knew the scientific facts. I passed their test of scientific facts. Now scientific fact says there's a bunch of genders. Does that mean I faild my schooling? Some scientific fact says genders aren't even real. There's alot of scientific fact from yesterday that's not fact today. There's lots of scientific fact today that won't be tomorrow. No, I don't think science has a very good record at all. Sure, it finally gets it right, after it ridicules and punishes those that dare question the flavorful fact of the day. When science becomes a religion, you just have another religion along with more high preists shouting their own brand of doomsday speech from the street corners and podiums.
Hey Al Gore, how long do we have before the earth melts? Oh yea 2007, and that's a mutha-trukin' fact.....believe it or else, you dirty flat earther.......did I get it right or am I being sacrilegious?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
@Servy - I thought you said you didn't watch Fox News? because I do - and you could host it right now. Everything you just said marches in lock step with everything they say. The AL Gore hate, the fact that science learns so changes it's message as new facts are learned, turned upside down into a cause for doubt.
Funny me, but isn't it religion that never changes? Isn't it religion with the high priests and the "infallible" message?
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John Condron
That. "ServantOfJudgement," is how science works. If the state had done a better job of teaching you "science," you would know that there is no such thing as "scientific fact." No scientist would ever use such a phrase.
BTW: What the hell does anything you said have to do with my post? You know. The one to which you were ostensibly responding? I said nothing in that post about "science" or about Al Gore.
Too bad your schools didn't teach you how to have a discussion while they were indoctrinating you in other areas.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
religion is mental illness. and there are a lot of mentally disturbed people here spouting nonsense, howling, trying to bite their their face and pooping on their bed.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Religious people are, by definition, delusional. It’s only a matter of degree. Some people are out there with their tongue speaking and dancing in the spirit. Others may spend some time in church each Sunday. Others wear signs and hand out leaflets about their god. And some handle rattlesnakes.
THEN THEY GET BIT AND DIE!!
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David A Foreman
Ban the Bible from ALL public places. It's caused far more atrocities than any other book! "They" falsely claim they want freedom of religion. They really mean they just want freedom of their religion, which of course makes them liars. Most right-wing fundamentalist evangelicals wouldn't know Jesus if he bit them on the ***.
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Cheryl Pettijohn
I've tried to reply to others with these statistics and it's just doesn't seem to be working.
Nationwide, on average, 79% of U.S. adults are literate in 2023. 21% of adults in the US are illiterate in 2023. 54% of adults have a literacy below 6th grade level.
https://www.thinkimpact.com/literacy-statistics/#:~:text=Nationwide%2C%20on%20average%2C%2079%25,literacy%20below%206th%20grade%20level.
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Bruce Steo
I found your newsletter interesting, as always. To ban the Bible because of "genital mutilation?" I was thinking. "Where on earth does the bible talk about this?" (I have an M.A. in Theology.)
Then I suddenly realized what they meant, and I couldn't stop laughing uncontrollably. I guess it is now illegal to call a Rabbi to circumcise a baby boy. You'll have to let the hospital do it instead. (Still laughing.)
Above, it also says the Torah has been left untouched. I wonder when these people are going to realize that the Torah is the beginning of the Old Testament of the Bible (and it has the "genital mutilation" text in it). You can't make this stuff up, you can't.
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Bruce Steo
I found your newsletter interesting, as always. To ban the Bible because of "genital mutilation?" I was thinking. "Where on earth does the bible talk about this?" (I have an M.A. in Theology.)
Then I suddenly realized what they meant, and I couldn't stop laughing uncontrollably. I guess it is now illegal to call a Rabbi to circumcise a baby boy. You'll have to let the hospital do it instead. (Still laughing.)
Above, it also says the Torah has been left untouched. I wonder when these people are going to realize that the Torah is the beginning of the Old Testament of the Bible (and it has the "genital mutilation" text in it). You can't make this stuff up, you can't.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
I absolutely agree with parents making a fuss over biblical content. If we are to believe the gospels, I just don't recall Jesus having conniption fits over much except the moneylenders at the temple. And of course his basic message was to love one another and to show it by helping those who had lesser resources than oneself and were struggling. But I guess that's too inclusive for today's round of bigots.
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Rev Ned
^Ban the Bible? Ridiculous! The most complete genocide EVER makes such a wonderful children’s story!!^
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Incest, murder, genocide, human sacrifice,,, it sure is a terrible book for children.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
There are two groups that shouldn't be in here. It defeats the purpose of what the ULC really is: Satanists (that includes witches) and athiests.
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
And what is YOUR definition of what the ULC stands for? For most of us it is an all encompassing organization neither promoting nor rejecting anyone’s beliefs. It is NOT a Christian organization as some would like to believe.
And for your information witches (actually Wiccans if you want the correct terminology) and not in any way, shape or form Satanists. Bedsides, who do you think you are to determine who should and should not belong to the ULC? By your thinks YOU shouldn’t be here.
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
Sorry folks for some of the mis-spelling. I get very annoyed when people; especially those who claim they are Christian and follow Jesus’ teachings and then attack people who don’t share their beliefs. Very typical of today’s revealed religions.
BUT I stand by my statement, The ULC is for EVERYONE, no matter their beliefs or lack thereof.
A PROUD DEIST.
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Elizabeth Blackthorn
"And for your information witches (actually Wiccans if you want the correct terminology) and not in any way, shape or form Satanists."
No. Not quite. Wicca is an organized religion. One can identify as a Witch and not be a Wiccan; either because one follows another path, such as Traditional Witchcraft, or because one practices as a Witch without being associated with any specific path at all. Witches can range from as non-theistic as any Satanist, practicing rituals and observances with a focus on connecting with others and the natural world, to being every bit as theistic as any bible-thumper here, to practicing magick with real belief, but without believing in gods or spirits, (though usually, in my experience, they're more likely to call themselves occultists). And there are both Witches and occultists who work with Lucifer in a theistic/magickal/supernatural sense, though I've yet to meet one that didn't do so in the sense of honoring as real the same view of Satan as Satanists have, just without the atheism. Regardless, all that makes Donald's rejection of us even more baffling.
Because, after all, you are totally right and ULC is for everyone.
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Joy
Oh here we go. Judgement on people you are supposed to love as you love yourself. It amazes me the lack of compassion Xtians have today. Is it any wonder no one wants to be a part of that anymore? ULC is for everyone. That is the purpose.
In light and love, Your Neighborhood ULC Witch
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Daniel-David
Lots of great thoughts:
Goggle: Lassana Bathily, 2015
Then Google: Don Giuseppe Berardelli
That’s the neighborhood I’d like to be living in.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That makes no sense.
Other major religions have their own ministries. Why do you suppose that means ULC is just for them?
|Or are you saying nobody should follow those practices, period, because you disagree with them?
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Marion Wolfe
Comment has been removed.
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Alexander Arends
I am sure there is already somebody working on an "edited" edition that will leave out all the controversial stuff. This will open up a can of worms, ending up with every book in the public schools libraries having to undergo a purge to eradicate any reference to sex or deviate behavior.
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
Someone already has. Check out the Jefferson Bible, compiled by Thomas Jefferson. He cut out all the “mumble jumble” and left the teachings in.
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Amber Fry
More specifically what Jesus was said to have taught. I got it and read it years ago. It's still back in one of my shelves somewhere. It's definitely well worth it for anyone who claims Jesus as their savior to really look at that book specifically.
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Asa William Sprague, II
There already is an "edited" edition exactly as you have described. It's called "The Children's Bible In Colour" which I read cover to cover when I was a child (late 1960s/early 1970s).
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Austin B Beamer
It's a Holy Spirit thing. And if the community is not based in that thing, no faith based material will survive. America continues to surrender itself to the Hounds of Hell. And they will severely pay for their foolish ignorance. Go ahead... keep taking the Creator of all things out of your communal lives. You will find out quickly and dramatically that ALL OF HEAVEN AND EARTH STILL OBEY THEIR MASTER.Even if His greatest creation that He made Heaven and Earth for, won't!
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Austin B Beamer
It's a Holy Spirit thing. And if the community is not based in that thing, no faith based material will survive. America continues to surrender itself to the Hounds of Hell. And they will severely pay for their foolish ignorance. Go ahead... keep taking the Creator of all things out of your communal lives. You will find out quickly and dramatically that ALL OF HEAVEN AND EARTH STILL OBEY THEIR MASTER.Even if His greatest creation that He made Heaven and Earth for, won't!
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Austin B Beamer
It's a Holy Spirit thing. And if the community is not based in that thing, no faith based material will survive. America continues to surrender itself to the Hounds of Hell. And they will severely pay for their foolish ignorance. Go ahead... keep taking the Creator of all things out of your communal lives. You will find out quickly and dramatically that ALL OF HEAVEN AND EARTH STILL OBEY THEIR MASTER.Even if His greatest creation that He made Heaven and Earth for, won't!
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Rev Mark D
Dude, if you can read, maybe you should read the book God Is Not Great, by Christofer Hitchens, and then come back and report.
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Rev Mark D
Thank you for putting the important bits in all capitals.
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Colleen McAllister
I am opposed to banning any book. This is an example of why. A negative spin can be put on almost anything. We see/read what we want into the most innocent of things.
Banning the Bible or any religious book is wrong, but who decides what is religious and what is just moneymaking? Slippery slope either way. Ye another form of censorship.
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Minister Wilson
Miss McAllister,
While I agree that in a perfect world every one should be accepting of everyone else, unfortunately we are not there. The books or bible have not been "banned" per'se people can still obtaining a copy of these texts.
However, they have been deemed inappropriate for "young children" because of vile and pornographic content. I would like people to talk about the issue, "appropriateness", rather than a straw-man "banning".
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Minister Wilson. What do you mean by the appropriateness"? Could you explain? Thank you
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Spindler ,
Sure, when Gov DeSantis first sign HB 1557, law, referred to as the "Don't Say Gay Bill" K through 3 grade curriculum in Florida did not have any formal or planned instruction regarding the teaching of sex or gender.
It was a straw man argument from the beginning, however, those opposing the law were accused of wanting to indoctrinate young children into a homosexual lifestyle.
They (republicans) were able to do this, in part, I think because people will be encouraged to speak out which is what they (republicans) are planning on and ready to respond to.
Books are not being banned per se' they are not being allowed into school libraries or for instruction because these books have be deemed inappropriate" and of low educational value.
We should be arguing about the appropriateness of including diverse literature in school's to foster and encourage children to have a broad range of differing perspectives. I disagree with what has been happening in Florida, very much so, but we need to be smarter and more precise about what we are arguing about.
What I mean by "appropriateness" is addressing the root of the issue rather than chasing them (republicans) down the rabbit hole. If they (republicans) are allowed to set the standards for what books do and don't have value, then they (r) are going to find some way to bring the bible back into schools irrespective of its equally offense content.
So, it has never been about a fair and honest debate, it has been more about grooming young children into religion.
I disagree with Mrs.McAllister because "Banning the Bible or any religious book is wrong.." I disagree because (1.) religion does not belong in public schools, and (2.) I think she actually supports the banning of LGBT+ and racially authored materials.
Since, a fair decision would be to "ban" religious texts, as well, if they (r) we actually serious about their intentions. I would expect that point to be crystal clear to intellectually honest folks.
Judging by what she wrote, and the issue she raised, she does not appear to be being honest either. No one is putting a "negative" spin on the bible just read it, it condones slavery, rape, incest, genocide, etc. etc. why would the bible avoid being ban, and held to a different standard, when other more innocuous books, are not?
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Minister Wilson. Thank you for a thoughtful and well stated reply. Very much appreciated.
I do have one question. You said ”Florida did not have any formal or planned instruction regarding the teaching of sex or gender.” Are you sure about that? I thought all public schools taught sex education. Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying?
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Minister Wilson
Mr. Spindler,
Yes...
According to the West Palm Beach News;
"Despite the governor's assertion that lessons on sexual orientation and gender identity are being taught to young students, a review of the state's current educational standards appears to tell a different story.
The [CPALMS] standards from the Florida Department of Education] show all of the educational benchmarks that public school teachers must meet and follow.
Under the "Health Education" category, nowhere does it mention anything about sexual orientation or gender identity in kindergarten through third grade.
Some of the health-related topics that are taught to students in those age groups include brushing your teeth and covering your mouth for a cough and sneeze."
https://www.wptv.com/news/education/floridas-governor-sings-controversial-parental-rights-in-education-bill-into-law
I also conducted a due diligence search of Florida Department of Education, at the time, to confirm that sex education, gender or sexual orientation, were in deed not taught to K-3 graders, which those subjects are not...
So, sex education may be taught in public schools for students in the 7 or 8th grade and up, however, Gov Desantis in Florida, has prohibited any discussion pertaining to gender affirming care or homosexuality, which he is actively attempting to push into College's as well as grade schools.
Moreover, teaching students about "sex" (male or female) and "gender" (social construction like "race" or religious affiliation) is not instructing students about what takes place in the bedroom with respects to sexual activities. These topics are distinct and not necessarily the same subject matter.
I hope this helps clear things up for you...
Take care,
Minister Wilson
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Minister Wilson thank you for your research and reply. Not sure if you are aware but girls are maturing at an earlier age. The reason sex education is and needs to be taught to kids in elementary school is two fold. With parents, family members, priests and ministers raping and molesting children teaching elementary school age children is protecting them. If they know nothing about sex, then they didn’t know they are being molested by an adult and if they are being molested/raped it’s teaching kids this is NOT okay and who they can go to for help. The other is to protect young girls (as young as 7) from becoming pregnant. If they know nothing about sex until they are in the eighth/ninth grade it’s way too late. This is why junior high schools (grades 7-9) were changed to middle schools (grades 6-8). This was done to protect the girls from sexual attacks by older students. Isn’t it the government’s job to protect young children from sexual crimes committed against them by their parents? Only way to do that is teach kids so they know when they are a victim.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Thank you for clarifying. Sure seems like the Governor is promoting hate and not tolerance or understanding. And isn’t Florida known for its Gay scene and Gay nude beaches?
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Minister Wilson
Greeting Mr. Spindler,
Perhaps, but not K-3 graders...
I don't know if I would characterize Florida in this manner those "scenes" and "beaches" are not only for them, but include everyone.One could say that Florida caters to retirees as well.
This again "dovetails" nicely with my original point. We have to be more concise about the way we characterize things. Our language is often times insufficient in the way certain things or not referred to as specific things.
For example, "Theory"
Poses a dual meaning in use, (i.e.) scientific analysis that has been test repeatedly, compared with "it just a theory" as being unproven and speculative...
Take care
Minister Wilson
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Minsiter Wilson you are absolutely correct. And theory in law has a different meaning as well. Then there’s the definition for the world truth. We have Objective truth, subjective truth and group of religious/political truth.
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Elizabeth Blackthorn
Can't speak to Flordia's curriculum, thank goodness, but here in Ohio, sex education doesn't start until seventh or eighth grade. Health classes don't start at all until fifth, and the first year is basically telling kids they need to shower every day and wear deodorant. Yes, all public schools teach some kind of sex education EVENTUALLY (or at least offer it), but I know of none that start at the elementary level, much less K-3. Which is another sign of the very bad faith inherent in these laws.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If I was a cynical person, I would think it almost appears conservatives WANT children dumb and vulnerable. It's apparent the child anti-trans laws are designed to sabotage the most successful transitions, which of course prevent transition (puberty) into the unwanted sex in the first place.
In a very real way, this makes conservatives the 'groomers', forcing children into a life of conservative's choosing.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
I also forgot to mention there has been an increase in the number of STD with young children. Just another reason sex ed needs to be taught to younger kids so they know what it is and can get treatment.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Elizabeth Victoria Fowler Seventh and Eight grade are too late. In your state did they once have junior high schools, grades 7-9 and switch to middle schools 6-8? Do you why that was done? It’s sex related. Girls are developing at an earlier age and would get abused by the older male students and were getting sexually abused/rapped and becoming pregnant. Another reason for teaching sex education at an early age/elementary school is because so many are children and being sexually abused. Another priest was just caught rapping young children. I a child is getting rapped the child needs to know this type of behavior is wrong even if a parent or member of the church or someone in authority are doing it. Teaching sex education at a younger ages is helping children.
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Elizabeth Blackthorn
Yes. I know. I was one of those girls who was abused by an older male student. I was in fifth grade.
I'm not saying they SHOULDN'T; I'm saying, as of right now, they DON'T (as far as I know). It was specifically in answer to your question: "Are you sure about that? I thought all public schools taught sex education." Right or wrong, no, not at the age the law addresses. The law, therefore, is pretending a problem that doesn't exist, while, I agree with you, totally failing to deal with the ones that do. Hence, the law is in bad faith, at best. In fact, it's a disgusting bit of bigotry, and worse because, as you said, it's not helping any real problems.
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Mark Hannon
I think this should be treated like guns. Make every student read all the highly acclaimed and well written books. Then everyone will have the same knowledge to work with and could make up their own minds about them all.
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John Condron
And who, Mark Hinton, will decide which are "the highly acclaimed and well written books?" I have heard many Xians declare that the christian bible os 'the greatest book ever written.' I have heard Muslims say the same about the Quran. I suppose we could use awards, such as the Nobel prize in Literature, the Caldecott Medal, American Library Association awards, etc., but many award-winning books have been removed from school libraries in the recent past.
my point? It would be quite impossible to reach agreement on "the highly acclaimed and well written books."
Also, "making every student read all" of those books sounds pretty totalitarian to me. Will we require them to learn all of the languages on the planet so they can read the great books published in other cultures?
Here's a crazy idea! How about making all of the great books AVAILABLE, and let kids decide for themselves what they want to read?
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
Unfortunately our educational system has been so damaged that the dumbing down of our children is beyond repair. A great number of kids cannot read at grade level. The system needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Donald J Rothschild Jr. You words are so true. Over 60% of Americans are functionally illiterate and can’t read. We created “No child left behind”, which means “No child got ahead” either. In California public schools can use IQ tests to test students but only if they are not African-American. You are absolutely right, the education in America is so badly broken it need to be rebuilt front the ground up. The public high school I attended has gone through 25 principals in less than 10 years with some only lasting a month. The American flag flying over the school is so badly ripped and torn it’s in multiple pieces. The school administration and principal who see the flag everyday don’t think it’s important enough to get it replaced.
Problem is you have educations who
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John Condron
No, Douglas. It is not true that "Over 60% of Americans are functionally illiterate and can’t read." According to the National Center for Educational Statistics, "Four in five U.S. adults (79 percent) have English literacy skills sufficient to complete tasks that require comparing and contrasting information, paraphrasing, or making low-level inferences. That is the actual definition of "functional literacy."
Yes, the American education system is in bad shape. There is no need, though, to make up statistics.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@John Condron - You are correct it’s not over 60%, it’s 54% according to the U.S. Department of Education. 54% of U.S. adults 16-74 years old - about 130 million people - lack proficiency in literacy, reading below the equivalent of a sixth-grade level as of Sep 9, 2020. You do realize for the past 25 years our public schools have been teaching kids how to read using the “Whole Language” method which was debunked over 25 years ago.
No need to incorrectly jump to the conclusion I’m making up statistics without even asking for my source. Next time try asking instead or making accusations which are false.
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John Condron
You are not making up statistics, Douglas. You are misinterpreting those statistics.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ John Condron CAre to explain? These are the Department of Education statistics and the finding of educators and universities in America. You are trhe one that took my words and tried to spin them into say it was immigrants. (Something I never said). Would you agree for the past 25 years any public schools adopted the Whole Language method of teaching students how to read? And that the research 30 years ago proved The Whole Language method was ineffective and did not teach the fundamental skills of how to read?
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John Condron
First, Douglas, I was not the person who mentioned immigrants, but that error certainly helps to explain why you seem to be unable to understand the difference between the "functional illiteracy" you claim, and the "lack proficiency in literacy, reading below the equivalent of a sixth-grade level" supported by the Dept. of Education statistics you keep quoting. Words have meaning, Douglas. I don't know if it is deliberate, but you ARE misinterpreting those statistics.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ John Condron How am I misinterpreting the Department of Education’s finding and statistics? They seem very straight forward to me.
Do you read the article or listen to the Podcast. “Sold a Story”?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Mark Hannon. You do realize for the past 25 years American schools used a flawed system to teach kids how to read. Right now nearly 60% of all Americans are functionally or fully illiterate. How do you expect children to read books when they were never taught how to read?
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John Condron
Again, Douglas, please stop spreading your fke statistic, that "nearly 60% of all Americans are functionally or fully illiterate." The correct number is more like 20%. That's bad, but there is no need to lie to make it sound worse than it really is.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@John Condron can you not say people are making things up before seeing if the statistics are from a credible source. Since you didn’t ask these statistics are from the United States Department of Education. Now I suppose you are going to say the Department of Education is making up these statistics now. Care to share the source for your informations or are you the one that’s making things up?
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Cheryl Pettijohn
It's 21% Cite your sources before you blast someone else.
https://www.thinkimpact.com/literacy-statistics/#:~:text=Nationwide%2C%20on%20average%2C%2079%25,literacy%20below%206th%20grade%20level. -
Martin L Stigleman
DRS, the correct number is 21%. The number you are quoting is actually the percentage of immigrants who can't read or wright the English language. Essentially, you are both correct.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Martin L Stigleman. No, I’m NOT talking about immigrants. This is the United States Department of Education. Need more proof? In the last two Department of Education reading progress tests given the American students in public schools, sixty-five percent of fourth graders in this country are not proficient readers. And when it comes to black students it’s 80% who are not proficient readers.
Do you know the method the majority of public schools int he US have been teaching students how to read for the past past 25 years?
Feel free to fact check my claim.
https://features.apmreports.org/sold-a-story/#:~:text=Sixty%20years%20ago%2C%20Marie%20Clay,of%20reading%20instruction%20in%20schools.
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John Condron
Again, Douglas, words have meaning! "Not proficient readers" is not the same as the "functional illiteracy" you claimed.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Martin L Stigleman. One more statistics you might want to research is how many students who get accepted into top universities in the US have to take remedial English classes. That number is 65%.
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Victor Williams
Greetings, I thankfully share a vision of what this blog totally has a rightful hand in doing- viewing the world. I think it is up to the social science disciplines practitioner how effective interventions are understood over school systems; society is shaped, but in turn it shapes us individually. Macrosociologically the system is a target area to maintain control, and a system of balances over; nonetheless microsociologically individuals can be targets to ethnographers inclined to understand society from a smaller scale. Violence is implied in many ways normally that make closing schools, or canceling classes at the last minute under circumstances of emergency, (like a war, or attack such as the events of 9/11 for schools the area of the twin towers), while not effecting the school system in Florida except in a grievous sovereign way into nationalism. On the same token violence that spawned from causes which are the circumstances under which war is described in the Bible to have occurred therefore either for socioeconomical reasons, political reasons, or the inevitable of the Creator of war, and peace also resulted in the cancellation of provisions that we have understood in a higher understanding, or learning. In that we are to adhere to the cause of war to prevent it, so this means the ethics of war are going to be taught in society at large for the greater good. The more important thing to monitor is whether or not violence, through these philosophical strains, is being promoted, or advocated in some way rather than understood, or researched- merely examined for obvious social concerns civilization has taught us in the act of raising our own children. The subject needs to be studied more before a proper inference can be made be it regarding a school setting, or a private setting due to the latent function of drawing a hasty conclusion.
Sincerely, Minister Victor,
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John Condron
All too often, language is used to obfuscate rather than to communicate. This is one such example.
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Michael Burton
Touche!
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Robert Armstrong
If you are going to bad books that means all books Now I read my bible a lot since I lost both parents but I don’t think it should be in schools unless it is a religious school Just one mans opinion
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Joan M Burley
Public school libraries should not contain religious texts of any kind. Those should be provided by the families in the faith community. There is still a separation of church and state principle in the US. That should be supported. No books should be banned, ever, anywhere.
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David McHaley
If you read the bible from start to finish, going back to it's original texts, it says none of those things mentioned. The churches have perverted the original texts with their own translations to fit their own religion. They don't teach about what really happened in the garden, about the Kenites, or the three " worlds", which are key to understanding why we are here. God has nothing to do with these "religions". And the constitution does not say bible cannot be taught in school. It says that our government cannot create a national religion. According to the constitution, we can teach Islam, Atheism, Christianity, or any faith in school. We just can't force only one. That is what is meant by separation of church and state. God bless you all Pastor David McHaley.
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Paul Edward Nunis
'Establishment' is a noun, and Congress (or any governmental entity) is barred from * favoring* specific religious establishments over others.
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Tom Herman
Evaluating all information is what we use to make our choices. Book banning by its nature, especially in the name of protecting children, is simply an excuse used to control information and the resources to make informed decisions. Information is harmless. It's what we do with the information that has effects. Those who seek to ban information and thus control what is used to determine choices are the real enemy of society. They are attempting to shape it in their image instead of allowing civilization to evolve naturally. Book banning and book burning was common in 1930's Germany. History teaches us that those who fail to learn from it are bound to repeat it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Do you think this book should be in school libraries?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchist_Cookbook
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Murray Nick Jones
As an ordained minister, I applaud the school district for applying their despotic book law, equally. There can never, EVER, be two sets of laws in a democratic society, where one group gets preferrential treatment and carte blanche to ignore the rules or laws in which they disagree. I totally agree that if a rule is applied to a public school district, no matter how fascist or authoritarian, it should apply across the entire district and reach everyone, equally, regardless of the nuclear fall-out. That old axiom rings true: "What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."
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Daniel Todd Kamm
The bible can be very naughty and violent in some places.
If it's the true word, that means that g-d can be very naughty and violent sometimes.
I had a pop up ad on my computer the other day... it was very naughty (and it tried to mess up my computer!!!)
Maybe g-d was trying to get through with a naughty message?
I haven't checked my spam folder, but I suspect there is an advert for something naughty in there I will have to deal with.
Word.
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Donald G Magel
This is the most hilarious move that I have read in weeks. I agree fully. Children should not have access to materials of this sort: begatting, stoning, fratricide, murder by rock throwing, etc. etc. Praise the people of Utah for their standing up for protecting children from such sinful printed materials.
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Tzion Michael MacArthur
I am sorely disgusted hearing what all of you have had to say in these comments this has been the most disgusting display that I have ever read I want to go ahead and also throw this out they didn't even need to ban The Bible all they needed to hear was all of you people that are trying to put people down man why are you trying to tip people down for something they believe man lift people up we're all stupid apparently apparently we're all fecal bovine matter because you know what the fact is otherwise we get over ourselves and we'd start standing up and help each other everybody's looking at the little tiny things in The Bible these little tiny books you know all the s*** in the gay books everything it doesn't matter to me I'm not upset the fact is that we need to come together and until that happens it aint gonna help that Bible was the only thing that was trying to help people come Together you wan to talk about people coming together over LGBTQ stuff man you know what they're doing over that stuff they're sitting there doing their own stuff probably masturbating the truth of the matter is at least there to comfort you. I am praying for yaall. How we treat this world and each other is disgusting. But how we treat the spark of life God gave us is even more disgusting.
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Deborah A Boyle
I don’t know much about Al Gore other than he was involved in global warming and the destruction of our planet. What I do know is Albert Einstein was quoted as saying, “When the honey bees are dead humans will survive for 4 years.
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John Condron
There is no evidence that Einstein ever said anything about bees and human extinction. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/einstein-on-bees/
More importantly, Einstein was a physicist; not an entomologist. It’s puzzling to imagine a context in which he would have made the statement about bees now attributed to him, or why he would have been perceived as saying something noteworthy that was unknown to his fellow scientists.
All in all, this looks like a classic case of a useful quote being invented and put into the mouth of a famous person for political purposes.
One more thing: Al Gore was not "involved in global warming and destruction of our planet," except to speak out against both; not 'early," as people were talking about this stuff back in the 1960s. But he was early for a politician.
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What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Turnabout IS fair play. Why wouldn't it be?
The first law of Magick - "Be careful what you ask for, you might not like it."
That isn't just magic but through life as well. It's true. Be careful to really know about that thing you want. You might just get it.