Earth being created
Studies show that Creationist views – particularly the most extreme versions like the Young Earth theory – remain incredibly popular.

Renowned Christian televangelist Pat Robertson stirred up controversy in the faith community last week by taking a swipe at “Young Earth” Creationists who believe the universe is only 6,000 years old.

The 89-year-old host of CBN’s “The 700 Club” was responding to a viewer who was left confused after learning in church that the world was created only 6,000 years ago. Robertson explained how that number flies in the face of scientific evidence and “tremendous geological records” which shows that dinosaurs roamed the planet millions of years ago – and even that is just a small fraction of the total geologic record we’ve discovered.

“This universe that we live in is…14 billion years old and there’s no question about it” explained Robertson, rebuffing the “Young Earth” views taught by many churches and fundamentalist Christin universities. Any attempts to claim otherwise are “nonsense” and “embarrassing,” Robertson said.

“We as Christians need to know the truth and when we know the truth you stand in awe with the God who created everything. He brought it all into being. Look at the vast solar system and the galaxies, and the stars, there are about a billion trillion stars…in the universe. It’s huge. So let’s give God credit for what He did, not try to limit Him to 6,000 years.”

Young Earth Believers Fume

But Robertson’s impassioned plea aside, many Christian faith leaders stand by their beliefs about the Earth’s age. One of the most prominent Creationist figures is Ken Ham, who operates the “Ark Encounter” Biblical theme park in Kentucky. Ham took issue with Robertson’s words, denouncing the idea that the Earth could be older than the Bible says.

“It’s not those of us who take God at His word who are ’embarrassing’ — it’s the other way around!” Ham wrote to his followers. He went on to theorize that Christians shying away from such obvious Biblical truths is a major factor in the ongoing decline in religious rates and church attendance:

“Those like Pat Robertson who adopt man’s pagan religion, which includes elements like evolutionary geology based on naturalism (atheism), and add that to God’s word are destructive to the church. This compromise undermines the authority of the infallible word.”

Creationism Not Going Away

The Ark Encounter theme park
Ken Ham’s Creationist theme park in rural Kentucky features a life-size version of Noah’s Ark, drawing thousands of visitors each year.

But despite concerns about religious declines, studies show that Creationist views – particularly the most extreme versions like the Young Earth theory – remain incredibly popular. A 2011 LifeWay Research survey found 46 percent of pastors actually believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, while 43 percent disagree.

Seeking to counter the resounding evidence put forward by the scientific community showing that the Earth is billions of years old, a Young Earth group released a film entitled “Is Genesis History? in 2017. Their intent was to prove that scientists used wonky math to come to their conclusions, and that the evidence for a 6,000-year-old Earth is stronger than many realize.

“We live in a time where the current scientific paradigm is infiltrating a lot of the seminaries and a lot of the hierarchy in evangelical Christianity because people have been led to believe that science has settled this issue of deep time,” explains Del Tackett, who worked with the conservative faith group Focus on the Family to promote the film. He continues:

“I would tell Christians, ‘If you’re going to say that God’s Word is now just an analogy, or it’s just some kind of simile, you’re twisting the Word of God because of a paradigm that is already really shaky.’ I would say, ‘You have that backwards. We start with the Word of God. We start with the record that God has given to us and stand on that, then begin to view the world around us. That’s when things will make sense.'”

Devout Beliefs or Willful Ignorance?

But does relying on the ‘Word of God’ to form a scientific understanding of this planet really make sense? Have we forgotten that Galileo was forced to endure house arrest at the hands of a Roman inquisition simply for claiming the Earth revolved around the sun?

Critics say the Creationist approach is actually the least-likely to yield truths about the world. Someone focused on unbiased inquiry does not base their learning on prior beliefs or convictions, they point out, because doing so will inevitably lead to inaccurate results.

Where do you stand?


  1. John Owens says:

    People unaware of many of the vagaries of translation can fall into beliefs with no foundation. Many are unaware that the first two verses of Genesis may actually leave plenty of room for a very, very old Earth and Cosmos.

    it may have been intended to read something like, ” In the beginning, Elohim created the heavens and the Earth, and the Earth BECAME or CAME TO BE barren and desolate, and covered in water, and darkness was over the face of the water.” I am not an expert in Hebrew or Aramaic or even Greek, but I have read that some very knowledgeable people say that the verses could easily have been translated that way and been as correct or more so than they are at present. That would put an unspecified period between the original beginning of Earth and the time that the story actually begins concerning what led up to the present world.

    Just thoughts.

    1. James Nusky says:

      Moses in Exodus 20:11 confirms Gods word of six literal days of creation. No gap theory. Only gap is not understanding Gods written word. The creation of Earth is that beginning, God has no beginning.

      1. CBW says:

        Six Day on gods time scale, not 6 earth days. Beside the fact the the bible is not gods written word but a conglomeration of men puting word of mouth to paper. The mere fact that it was a thousand or more year of asshat in power playing telephone. Then another thousand years of of clergy changing it to rule the people, not to lead them to the truth. And you have a very poorly write book of fiction that would not even get off an editors desk nowadays.

        1. James Nusky says:

          If you do some research , you will find its still the best selling book. Do you write letters ?? Your pen or computer does the actual writing of the thoughts you put to the paper. Its the same thing with God. His thoughts, as the men did the writing. Fiction ?? Are you kidding me ? 40 different writers in three different continents ,in three different languages over a period of 1500 years ?? Far from fiction my friend.No one could ever in a time span as that get together and conspire to fool, trick or deceive people with writings that are fiction.Without flaws or mistakes. If you have never read it, your statements are pure ignorant.John 3:36

        2. Laurie Cleveland says:

          Cwb, There is much credence to what you say. Time may move very quickly on that end, but it can translate into millenia here. This has often been born out with spirit communication. Because they don’t deal with a body, literally they can be anywhere while we are still getting ready to go to the same destination and haven’t even packed the car yet, lol.

    2. Seeker on the Path says:

      Hell is full and overflowing with TV Evangelists. Pat Robertson is no exception, he’s just seen the writing on the wall that american christianity is being exposed for the fakery it has become. To think the Earth is only 6,000 years old by some fool adding all the years of the begats in the Old Hebrew Testament is sheer idiocy and an insult to intelligence. Same like the abortion issue that is only mentioned in the OT. Jesus said ZERO about it.The truth is that christianity is on the decline and people are turning more Spiritual. I am not a christian but I revere Jesus for his message. I’ve met him and he is not what you all think. No beard or mustache, no robes, no sandals and teen age young about 17 or 18. I immediately recognized him. His hair looked like a bob.I point blank asked him if he was God. He just looked and I understood: you already know that answer.

      1. kimberly says:

        2 John 1:7
        For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus is Christ come in the flesh (ie/is NOT “God”). This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

        1. Seeker on the Path says:

          Really? Would you even recognize him if you saw him? True he is not God and you would not believe it if I told you. Any ways… here it goes… You can’t find God in Church or even in that Bible. You associate the meeting for a physical place and it was not. What do you know of the anti-Christ? He is real and here doing his best to mess it up for all… most of all with his White House minions.

          1. kimberly says:

            Antichrist isn’t a man. It is the denial that Jesus was Christ in the flesh. Not God in the flesh. Such denial is anyone who makes a god out of Jesus. That includes most of Christianity and most religions today.

            1 John 2:18
            Little children, it is the last time ( age of mankind’s reign upon the earth): and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

            the “end of the world” began nearly 2,000 years ago and will remain “the end of the world” until Jesus returns.

          2. Lionheart says:

            This in fact is Kimberly’s truth, which in actual fact is a lie. Keep seeking on the path, one day you might really find the truth.


  2. Randall Worcester says:

    For Ken Ham & Del Tackett, I say they’re assuming that God’s “day” is the same as ours!
    Our “day” is 24hrs because MAN built a clock and one revolution of Earth takes that amount of time.
    Since when has God lived on Earth and worked on a 24hr day?
    What if we lived on Venus where a “day” is longer than it’s year (equal to about 360+/- Earth days) or how about Jupiter where a “day” is 9 of our hrs?
    A “day” for God could be a million of our years, or a billion!
    Science never claims God didn’t create everything, it only tries to explain how it was done!
    To think otherwise is ludicrous!

    1. Lionheart says:

      Science never claims Fairies, nor anything mythical, such as deities, didn’t create everything because no one knows. Creationists like to think they know the answer, which of course they don’t, but their belief structure will insist they do, which of course is ludicrous!


    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Ken Ham sounds like an old ham, and not a very good one, but more like a can of Treet.

    3. James Nusky says:

      The creation of Earth from a Biblical view has nothing to do with Jupiter, or any other planet, star or galaxy. It has to do with Earth. The Bible says in Genesis 1;5 Eve, and morning are one day. Earths day, not Gods or Jupiters. God is outside the boundaries of time as we know it. Moses confirms a six day creation of Earth in Exodus 20;11

      1. Lionheart says:

        Yes, James, your god is outside the boundaries of time as you believe it from your book.

        Currently, there is no evidence Moses ever existed, but it’s an interesting story isn’t it.


        1. James Nusky says:

          There is proof Jesus existed and he named Moses in Matthew 19:8. They could never prove Pontius Pilate exsited until a recent dig unearthed his name. Same with King David. Yes very interesting story. Luke 13:3

          1. Lionheart says:

            And your archaeological proof of your Jesus is where?


          2. Sheila says:

            Jesus got up and walked away. So of course there isn’t going to be archaeological proof.

          3. James Nusky says:

            wow, you better do some research my friend . Just a little research and you will find many writers who were not Christian confirm Jesus as a real person. Do you think they would make a calendar ,and time itself based on fiction, and a person who never existed ? One thing is for sure, you will never stand before God and claim you didn’t know. I have told you.John 3;36.

          4. Lionheart says:

            I don’t think anyone will be standing in front of your god James despite your religious threats and typical Christian blackmail.

            How anyone could look up to, and worship, your mythical, infanticidal, genocidal, jealous god is beyond me.

            So you can quote as many paragraphs as you want from your story book of fables, they don’t scare me, but thank you for your reply.


          5. Lori says:

            …….And the beat goes on….and on….and on…..
            Those who have had it drummed into heads for years and years pick up the drum hoping they can pound it into the heads others. All that Jesus MAY have preached fits on two whole pages…..maybe.

        2. Sheila says:

          You told the tale, “Currently, there is no evidence Moses ever existed…” – yes, that’s an interesting story. Sort of interesting anyway.

          Oh yeah, loads of evidence that Moses actually wrote the first five books of the Bible ( – “Could it be Moses actually wrote the first five books of the Bible “).
          We’ve got evidence of what he did and that he did it, but no evidence of him. Like that makes any sense. It doesn’t. Yes, we have evidence he existed.

          “Proof For Moses”

          There’s hieroglyphics showing the Israelites making mud bricks, chariot wheels and remains of people and horses at the true crossing of the Read Sea, etc., etc., – but no evidence Moses existed. Yes, that’s not true. Truth is there’s evidence Moses existed. But, you wanted to believe propaganda. Apparently too scary for you to explore something that doesn’t support your religion (atheism).

      2. Geoffrey Olive says:

        Just say yes to anything this buffoon (JN) wants to say or believe. Science and rational thinkers will never convince xtian bigots of their locked in beliefs, yet they love to benefit from all that science brings in the way of medical advancements, technology, etc., that praying never achieves. This blog, for example, would never have been possible if the world of science had been supressed by the hypocritical buybull believers.

        1. Sheila says:

          Geoffrey Olive – Just because you’ve made the Scientific Method your god, does mean you own it – or anyone else who has made it their god.

          People worshiped the stars, that doesn’t make stars unuseful for people to navigate using them without making an idol out of them. The people who worshiped the stars didn’t get to own the stars because they made them their god.

          Just because people, such as yourself, worship the Scientific Method – even to the point that it’s desecration to you that it’d be useful for anyone outside your religion; doesn’t mean it’s unuseful to others outside your religion.

          Science is your god. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t also exist simply as a tool. You don’t get to own “science” just because you’ve made it your god.

          For the people who used the bronze serpent as a tool, everything was okey dokey. It was the people who worshiped the thing that caused a problem. (Numbers 21:9 & 2 Kings 18:4)

          So it is the atheists making a god out of science that is the problem, not God believing people discovering things by using science or enjoying the benefits of things atheists discovered using science.

        2. Sheila says:

          Oh, BTW, prayer has even been scientifically proven to work.

          1. Sheila says:

            Oh funny – when I said, “Just because you’ve made the Scientific Method your god, does mean you own it – or anyone else who has made it their god”
            I really meant “doesn’t”:
            “Just because you’ve made the Scientific Method your god, doesn’t mean you own it – or anyone else who has made it their god.”

    4. Laurie Cleveland says:

      Actually time is speeded up on the other side of the shower curtain so to speak. That is why, even if somebody gets a message from Spirit about when an event is to happen, it could be off. They are like steam and we are like ice. It is that much of a difference. As to the televangelists, I sort of put them into the same kettle of fish as Mediums or Healers that get onto TV. Once you do this, get ridiculous amounts of money, there is no way that you will not become corrupted by it. I have seen really good Mediums and Healers start charging ridiculous rates and they lose their abilities. I’m not saying that people do not need to be paid for their work, even if they are the conduit, because we all have to live, but these egotistical “Pastors” that appear to care about “their flocks” and could give a rat’s ass about any of them just turn my stomach. While there is a nitch for TV services for the homebound, oftentimes, these people know just how to get money from the people who can least afford it. It’s sort of like PETA, HSUS and ASPCA. Peta is a terrorist organization. HSUS is the money-making and legal side of it. Every year, they save exactly 1 animal. That’s it and they are 501(c) non-profits. They need to be stripped of their non-profit status and these “Pastors” need to be stripped of their robes and the monies returned to the coffers of whatever Christian church they first started out as ministers. This isn’t what Yeshua had in mind when he wanted people to spread “The Word.”

  3. Rev Buzz says:

    Those that profess to believe in the young earth concept, do so out of fear of the domino effect. If the Bible is thought of as the literal word of God, then if any one flaw is made known, then the domino effect will cause other descended beliefs to fall. All of a sudden, the “mysterious ways” in which God has been credited to have been working, may be seen as a sham. When bad things happen, no blame is attributed to God, because it’s just those mysterious ways at work. When good fortune shines on us, we are quick to thank God for it. The age of the universe as determined by the Bible is but the first of many dominos (mysterious ways) to fall. To stick with what the Bible teaches us about our world is to remain ignorant of an ever increasing database of scientific knowledge that can help our civilization prosper. Do you believe that God wants you to remain at the level of ignorance that existed thousands of years ago? If so, then just tend your flock.

    1. Laurie Cleveland says:

      I will say that earth is considerably older than 6000 years. There is too much physical evidence that support original vs. “New” teaching. In the beginning there was the void. The void is feminine. It contains all of the ingredients and possibilities that the IAM used to create not only our puny planet and solar system, but everything out there and all permutations of life forms that we can’t even conceive of. Last night, I was traveling back from NY state to MA and there was this religious program that came on and I heard a couple of sentences and got angry. Why? Because scientists want to know all of God’s secrets. If we were meant to be like the IAM, we would have unlimited access to knowledge, but seeing what people are doing with the knowledge that they do have, I would say that we are not meant to and if we did have the knowledge, how much quicker would we all destroy each other?

      1. Rev Buzz says:

        In response to Laurie:

        WHAT? “The void is feminine?” Absolutely, scientist want to know more about the universe in which we live. While true that advancements in technology may provide the means by which we can destroy our planet, such advancements may also continue to enhance our ability to feed, shelter and provide renewable sources of energy for the ever growing global population. Ignorance is more likely to cause a catastrophic misunderstanding, or combat for resources that could destroy the planet, more so than increased scientific knowledge. Our need for greater knowledge has never been more necessary than it is for today, And tomorrow.

        1. kimberly says:

          Knowledge is not wisdom. An increase in knowledge does not lead to wisdom. Facts only lead to more facts.

          1. Rev Buzz says:

            I’m done having this convoluted discussion with you Kimberly! If something can be misunderstood, it will be. Apparently, you misunderstand me and I definitely misunderstand you. No longer worth my effort. Best wishes.

          2. Laurie Cleveland says:

            Kim, without knowledge and the brains to know how to properly use it, there is no wisdom. Wisdom tends to come with age and with the thirst to learn. The wisest men and women are those who are both Sage and Student. Think about that for a minute.

        2. Laurie Cleveland says:

          Read it and weep Buzz. Read it an weep. The void is indeed feminine. In the trilogy, the Holy Spirit is thought of as feminine. Yeshua did not believe in a monotheism because it was skewed. He believed that both men and women were equal and that religions as well should honor both male and female. Just passing along some of hte knowledge that was left out, once again from The Bible because men didn’t want women to know the truth and it was just another way to control the masses.

        3. Laurie Cleveland says:

          Buzz. Sorry to burst your monotheistic bubble, but yes, by definition, the void is akin to a women’s womb. Why do we always hear about the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? The way that this and most worlds work requires Male and female and both are equal. It’s men who cannot seem to comprehend this little fact. As for the rest of it, the world is already in a state of crisis because of all of the screwing around that we are doing with it. It has literally become the devil’s playground. For every positive thing scientists have re-invented, people see a money-making proposition and have used it against, not for, mankind. They have had the cures for many things, but too many people are making too much money and hurting too many in their lust for greed and false power. Do you honestly think that some of these egomaniacs would actually do the right thing if they had access to unlimited power? Please! Time and time again, people have been tested and shown to be unworthy and then taken down.

    2. James Nusky says:

      Mysteries come only to those who don’t know God, who do not have a daily relationship with him.It is written,No good thing will he withhold from them who walk uprightly. Psalm 84:11. You are right about one thing, fear ! The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Proverbs 9:10

      1. Laurie Cleveland says:

        No James. You are sadly mistaken. It is the wise man that can see the mystery in life and can still marvel at it. It has nothing to do with fear, only understanding that it is not we who are in charge.

  4. tom says:

    Respectfully…as I have said before, creationism and evolution are the same thing…and what is the point to trying to “learn” the age of the world?…Peace…Tom B

    1. Lori says:

      For that matter Tom, what is the point of learning anything. All things pass. I believe learning is the one thing that can be passed on. I guess you don’t agree with science and what it has shown us. It’s exciting to “learn”. It’s stagnating to stay the same.

    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Respectfully or not… We need to know exactly how old this planet is so we can program our time machines to take us to the beginning so we might be able to learn how God created the world, and how long it really took.

      1. Laurie Cleveland says:

        Carl and this is where your thought process has been derailed.

      2. Tom B says:

        Carl…I appreciate your sense of humor…Peace…Tom B

        1. Lori says:

          You’re right Tom…Carl is very entertaining. He always adds a little color to these pages.

          1. tom says:

            Lori…thank you…i think too many writers take Carl too seriously…also, i gave a lot of thought to your writing to me of May 9…my belief is that there are virtually no “facts” that are “worth” learning, unless, hopefully, you consider love, compassion and forgiveness things to be learned…i spent my life (77 Years) amassing an insane amount of knowledge/facts, until i finally learned that all the facts are simply a mind/ego game…and “facts” are actually a “slippery slope”, as there is no such thing as knowing enough “facts” to satisfy my ego…as i have written before, i believe there is an infinite universe/God; that past, present and future all co-exist; so i see no point in try to figure out the “time” of “creation”…keep writing; i feel you consider all you write…Peace..TomB

    3. Dan Anderson says:

      tom – Sorry, but Creationism and Evolution are NOT the same thing. Creationism implies a deity being involved in the “creation” of the universe, not just the beginning of life. Evolution has to do with change in allele frequencies causing change due to environmental pressures. Evolution has nothing to do with the beginning of the universe, let alone the beginning of life on this little blue marble on which we live.

      The reason to learn the age of the Earth is because science has a job to learn and explore the natural world. Among the many issues includes the age of the Earth AND the age of the universe, which are two completely different ages.

      Remember, too, that Creationism has absolutely no empirical evidence for ANY of its claims. If you disagree, please post your evidence. Many people would like to know what you believe and why.

      1. tom says:

        Lori and Dan…thank you for writing…God/universe “creates” everything…this means that when we postulate creationism and/or evolution, both “theories” are a product of God/universe…what we each perceive as our existences is a product of God, including karma…that is what I believe…the only worthwhile “learning” is to understand this, and live a life of love, compassion and forgiveness…in that way we can reduce the number of reincarnations we experience, as we ultimately return to stay as part of God…we are all the same; just at different stages of reincarnation to return finally to stay as part of God…on a “practical” level, unless you enjoy fear, anger and other negative emotions, living a life of compassion, love and forgiveness leads to feeling peace, instead of being combative…replace anger, fear and the other emotions with understanding, empathy and caring…living/arguing against this, whether directly or effectively, only harms us and others, and creates more karma to deal with in this and “future” lifetimes…take a moment, when you feel you “must” react to someone else, and consider that that person is doing the best he or she can, and you will find some peace (and so will that person)…my feeling about the ULC is not just that it is accepting of all beliefs, but that it encourages all of us to accept each other…I do not feel there is any argument against this…try not to get lost or aggravated in the minutiae of what seems to be day to day existence, and realize we are really all together trying to return to God…Peace to all…Tom B

      2. Sheila says:

        “The third point of evidence for the existence of God is the Law of Biogenesis.

        1) The Law of Biogenesis states that all cells come from pre-existing cells. No exceptions in nature or in the laboratories have been observed.
        2) All living entities exist as single or multicellular organisms.
        3) The logical conclusion is that cellular life originated supernaturally.
        4) There must be a God!

        To insist on natural origins is irrational and inconsistent with scientific laws of today. Credible conclusions must conform to the laws and knowledge of today. To conclude that there is no God is illogical and contradictory to scientific observation.”

        So, if people finally figure out how to create life without pre-existing cells – that would be a step toward disproving the Theory of Creationism. And the supposed, “oh it can’t be theory because God doesn’t have to follow natural laws.” Whatever. Of course God doesn’t have to follow natural laws. To say something MUST do that in order to be a credible truth, just shows that’s an invalid necessity for ascertaining reality – and shows an invalidity in the “Theory of Scientific Method.” But don’t cry too much over your precious idol “The Scientific Method” too much. Just because something has been found to be invalid about a theory, doesn’t make it useless. Superseded theories continue to be useful – “All of Newtonian physics is so satisfactory for most purposes that it is more widely used…” .

        Oh, BTW, for the most part I believe . I haven’t read it all (like I have the Bible), but for the most part I believe because it makes sense to me.

        Oh, another BTW, you believe what you believe because it makes sense to you. Or, at least I hope that’s why you believe it. But, intuition goes beyond “what makes sense” – so that’d be good reasoning for believing what you believe, too.

      3. tom b says:

        Dan…Respectfully…I feel I may not have been clear…what I am saying is that God/universe created and creates everything, which includes all the science that humans think they have discovered…without God (which is impossible), there would be no science…to me, the “search” to validate evolution misses the point, and is just another skewed attempt to realize God…lastly, there is no “age” of the universe, as it has no past, present and future, as they all exist simultaneously…Peace…Tom B

  5. kim says:

    It would appear the consensus here is that a 6,000 year old earth makes no sense. As with many “Christian” beliefs, it doesn’t make sense. The earth and the cosmos isn’t thousands of years old. Its millions and possibly billions of years old. What creationists ignore is that the bible states Adam and Eve (first among created humans…not the “only” created humans) were told to REPLENISH the earth. King David states the earth was RENEWED. Noah was similarly told to REPLENISH the earth after the flood. Clearly, the Genesis creation was a renewal of the earth to support mankind while the rest of the cosmos was not renewed and remains dead and sterile to this day. Prior to the Genesis creation, there was an entirely different ecosystem containing different fauna and different animal life. That pre-genesis ecosystem (and there were possibly several) was designed for a specific purpose…to be “harvested” (possibly multiple times) for biomatter which was then buried deep underground to percolate into fossil fuels. It was the reason animal gigantism was prominent in that age of the earth. Dinosaurs were designed to be huge repositories of biomatter. However, once that was accomplished (there’s more to the story btw) the planet was terraformed to support mankind with a completely different ecosystem. The different between the pre-genesis ecosystem and the post-genesis ecosystem is staggeringly obvious. And, the Genesis creation wasn’t 6,000 years ago. The Bible doesn’t say when it was performed and the pre-diluvian age (between the Genesis creation and the flood) could have been any number of thousands of years. So, mankind could easily have been on the earth for much longer than a mere 6,000 years. Regardless, we’ve now made use of fossil fuels and that use was predicted in the Bible with the express purpose of generating an exponential human population explosion. Enough “people” to replace the angels who rebelled and are now lost forever. When you look at it, God is a genius to have build such a construct as the cosmos. Originally constructed as a “test” of the angels but designed to use their failure to maintain the system to replace them. Religion so underestimates God.

    1. Lionheart says:

      🤣🤣That was hilarious Kim. Thank you, I needed that.🤣🤣

      By the way, I would love to try whatever you are on. Can I get it over the counter, or is it only on prescription? Just asking!


      1. kim says:

        I don’t blame ya……its probably the most convincing evidence the Bible contains that makes it genuine……………and the only one that fits the scenario. The statistical improbability of such a precise correlation to the current world civilization is nearly zero based on the quantity of parallels within the text. For example………..

        Revelation 17:8
        The “beast” that thou sawest was (prehistoric), and is not (extinct); and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (oil wells), and go into perdition (combustion): and they that dwell on the earth (world civilization) shall wonder (be inventive..invent, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (population explosion), when they behold (discover) the beast that was (prehistoric), and is not (extinct), and yet is (residual petroleum biomatter).

        1. Lionheart says:

          Omg Kim!! I’m starting to think you are serious. I am soooo sorry.

          Though I have a PhD, it’s not in the medical field I’m sorry to say, so I cannot help you.

          However, what might help is if you happen to read books like the Harry Potter series or Alice In Wonderland, or even Aesop’s Fables, I need you to understand that those stories are all fiction just in case you start to think they are real. I seriously hope this helps. Please take care!

          My thoughts and thoughts are with you, if that helps.


          1. kim says:

            I’m quite serious and I’m an environmental chemist and statistical expert. As a scientist, I’m quite versed in what’s real and what’s not. Harry Potter was witchcraft, Alice was a dream and Aesop was a slave who told stories that ended in a truism. If you indeed have a PhD (which I doubt) then you should have been able to do better than call me crazy which by such a response indicates you obviously cannot discredit my correlative studies.

          2. Lionheart says:

            I’m very pleased to learn that you say you are well versed in what’s real and what isn’t.

            May I ask if you believe in Adam and Eve, a talking snake, a talking ass, a woman turned into a pillar of salt by a deity, and a virgin woman that gave birth, claiming the father of the child was a god? This could go a long way to determine your true mental health being as you claim to be educated.

            I’m just trying to determine what level of reality you are actually seeing. You’ve done very well so far on the three sets of books I referenced.


          3. kim says:

            lionhearted. I definitely believe in a talking ass. LOL
            Adam & Eve were first among created men. they weren’t the ONLY created men.
            And they were created in the form of godS (plural). Not in the form of God (singular).
            The snake was what it appeared to be. I wasn’t there.
            I’d say the pillar of salt was quite similar to volcanic ash. quite logical.
            you don’t know the Bible too well if you think a virgin woman gave birth to a god. Jesus was the physical son of Joseph. the miracle was that Joseph’s seed (sperma) inseminated Mary without sex to bypass old testament laws concerning uncleanness. Not a real impressive miracle really. Jesus was born a man. not a godman. The father/son relationship between Jesus and his (our) God was patriarchal rather than familial. However, at his baptism, God revealed him to be his “beloved son”. Not by insemination but by having been sent. That Son was EVER Son and NEVER God. You’ve been taught all wrong about that. Your logic has seen through the lie though. I commend you.

          4. Johnny Cakes says:

            Kim, I will use you as a reference for how stupid some people are and how they will believe anything. I am sure the “pre-genesis ecosystem and the post-genesis ecosystem” will double people over in laughter as will the “harvested” (possibly multiple times) for biomatter which was then buried deep underground to percolate into fossil fuels.” What I laughed at the hardest was “Dinosaurs were designed to be huge repositories of biomatter.”

        2. Dan Anderson says:

          Kim – Many Christian theologians believe that the Book of Revelation was written by one of the John authors as a coded document regarding the Emperor Nero as the “antichrist”, NOT anything prophetic.

          1. kimberly says:

            I’m aware of that and reject most of it…something about the destruction of the temple and sacrificing a pig in the holy of holies or something like that. Not a particularly world-shattering event. For one thing a beast (of burden..or transportation) is described. Not a man. And the description of a world civilization dependent on fossil fuels is too detailed to be coincidence when compiled. In fact, John describes in his ancient verbiage exactly what we see today. For example, his “great whore” sitting on “many waters” is a precise description of the statue of Liberty that sits at the entrance to the world’s center of Capitalism (money for services) and that statue has overseen immigration of the world’s people into what has become a racial melting pot reminiscent of the ancient tower of Babel. Consequently, John describes it as Babylon not having the language to call it the United States. We see today as “normal”. He didn’t see it that way and couldn’t.

      2. Lori says:

        Oooo, me too. Must be good stuff!

        1. Carl Elfstrom says:

          And then there’s the Arthurian legend and Camelot. Does anyone know exactly when that took place? And whatever happened to Merlin the wizard? I don’t think wizards ever die. We could sure use a good wizard in this day and age. Does anyone know how to summon Merlin? Then again, according to Deepak Chopra’s book The Return Of Merlin we all have wizards within us. If we could learn how to awaken them… Don’t try The Secret. It does’nt work. However, the Kybalion of Hermes Trismegistus by Three Initiates, as well as Wisdom Of The Mystic Masters by the Rosicrucians might lead the way. Or, you might try sitting in the lotus position until you have an excelled complete awakening. At any rate, along the way keep telling yourself “I think I can, I think I can,” and before long you’ll be saying “Vini Vidi Vici”.

  6. Lynn Gideon says:

    The earth is as old as God and science want it to be.

    1. Lionheart says:

      …and of course the earth is as old as religionists want it to be to suit their narrative of beliefs.


  7. Loren says:

    It’s god that’s 6,000 years old. That’s when man invented it.

    1. Lori says:

      And there you have it. Too bad the creationists aren’t able to realize that.

    2. Lionheart says:

      You are both right on! 👏 👏

      Having said that, there are many indigenous peoples that worshipped the gods of the sun, moon, and stars way before people 6000 years ago started to anthropomorphize their god.


      1. Rev Buzz says:

        Loren, Lori and Lionheart, haven’t heard the man created god argument for a while. It sure makes a lot more sense than the opposite. Just follow the ULC Creed of Doing That Which Is Right.

        1. kim says:

          Man has created godS (plural). Not the indefinable absolute singularity of the Bible without which there would be no “right”. It appears obvious that atheism is a religion based on the fact I find so many of you flitting about the monastery like moths to a candle. Or, is the fact you’re here because you wish to destroy another religious organization? Regardless, such a hypocritical “smarter-than-thou” perspective is disgusting.

          1. minister james says:

            uh, Kim, (and everyone here, including myself), after making definitive statements mind looking too long into a mirror (judge not, lest ye…). Do we wish to KNOW ‘God’ (in whatever form, or LACK OF FORM gives us an INDIVIDUAL understanding of the universe that we definitely exist in at this moment) or do we wish to BE ‘God’ (expand and imprint our individual understanding of the universe ON others in an effort to control our time in it for OUR OWN, very-human reasons)? … and may we all find a better day.

          2. kim says:

            m. james….you essentially said the same thing I did. The problem with giving any “god” a form (including some manner of abstract formlessness) is that while it might be universally intuitive to acknowledge God, to go beyond that acknowledgement into some kind of definition of that acknowledgement is to make up one’s own god for one’s own agenda. The proper perspective on acknowledgement of God is to accept that He is not an extension of the Cosmos (supernatural in some manner) but is wholly outside human limitations (extra-natural). For example: While some ancients might have acknowledged God, they then went on to think He was the sun they saw in the sky. It did them little good but their acknowledgement was intuitively correct. But, they would have been much better off maintaining the acknowledgement and not attempting to say who or what God was. So, while we might all have that same acknowledgement, it stands to reason too many have exceeded their own intuition. Again, for example. We all acknowledge that Truth exists and we all acknowledge that Reality exists and only by ingrained intuition for there is no evidence of either when it comes to a point (based on human limitations) where we cannot discern such existence. The same should be with God. So, if anyone tells me they can definitively “know God” or even “Truth” or “Reality”, they are wrong. ULC is correct in their approach. They recognize the acknowledgement and ignore the defining.

          3. Dan Anderson says:

            Kim – No, Atheism is NOT a religion. A religion requires doctrine, a practice, an ethic. Atheism is ONLY a lack of a belief in a particular deity or deities. You, for example, are an atheist when it comes to Brahma, correct? How about Ahura Mazda of Zoroastrianism? Therefore, are you of a religion of Ahura Mazdaism because you do not believe in it? The same thing applies to Atheism.

            Regarding your post about Adam & Eve, you know it was written as an allegory and not literal, right? The same thing with the Sodom & Gomorrah fable and the Noah’s Global Flood story. There is absolutely NO empirical evidence to prove any of these ever existed.

            I look forward to your rebuttal with evidence.

          4. kimberly says:

            Belief whether for or against is irrelevant. And, the illogic of atheism is that it rejects the unproven simply because it is unproven. Intuition dictates the opposite and the scientific method is based on intuition in the absence of factual data. Most advances in science have been based on intuition. Not on disbelief in the unproven.

          5. kimberly says:

            You mention a lot of different religions. Each intuitively acknowledges the existence of God. Yet, describe Him differently and incorrectly. That is their problem. Not mine. You claim that lack of proof is indication something must be rejected. I put it to you that such an approach is not only illogical but goes against the scientific method which based on lack of proof, intuitively acknowledges existence (by postulating a theory) then attempts to prove it. Failing to find (or in your case…to reject) proof is NOT justification for rejection of existence. Especially when proof is impossible to obtain. However, in the case of your examples, you yourself point to the record of such existence. You simply reject the record. Again, not my problem.

          6. Sheila says:

            Dan – Kimberly had a better answer for you than me, but

            Atheism most definitely is a religion. The dictionary says so within its definition of “religion” and the spirit of the Constitution says it’s a religion;

            But by your qualifications: ” A religion requires doctrine, a practice, an ethic.”
            Doctrine – The Scientific Method
            Practice – The Scientific Method
            Ethic – The principle of “enlightened self-interest” (or whatever particular ethic that particular atheist happens to have)

            And, that’s just an example. Just as there’s so many different doctrines, practices, and ethics within christianity (as one example of another religion), there’s so many doctrines, practices, and ethics within atheism. But, the ones I listed I think are by far the most common ones for atheists.

            BTW, just because the Scientific Method is core to your religion, doesn’t make the method false, or unuseful for others who don’t make an idol out of it.
            Case-in-point: People worshiped the stars, that doesn’t make stars unuseful for people to navigate using them without making an idol out of them.

            In other words, you don’t get to own the scientific method just because you made it your god.

        2. Sheila says:

          I dismissed the whole “man created God argument” back when I fathomed it between the ages 4 and 6. God made people makes a lot more sense than the opposite. It still makes more sense.

      2. Sheila says:

        False. Adam and Eve existed before them, and actually walked with God.

  8. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM says:

    Well, at least these folks don’t believe that Earth is flat. They can’t deny it anymore although a few nuts are still claiming that too. Very funny posts here.

    1. Carl Elfstrom says:

      It’s been quite a number of years since they found Noah’s Ark, pretty high up on Mt. Arafat. I saw that many years ago on a documentary show.

  9. Carl Elfstrom says:

    According to Raven Grimassi’s book The Wiccan Mysteries, on page ten, chapter one it states that carved stone images of the Great Mother Goddess appear in the Neolithic art of Old Europe around 6500 B.C. along with stone images of male horned deities. The vast number of statues and images uncovered by archaeologists indicate a widespread matrifocal cult among the people of Old Europe. 6500 years ago is longer than 6000. Whoever wrote Genesis, and others from that region may not may not have known of people living more than six thousand years ago in other parts of the world, but there are historical accounts and stories of much older civilizations, such as Atlantis and Lemuria.

    1. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Many years ago, in the early 1980s I read,and studied Ruth Montgomery’s book Strangers Among Us quite thoroughly. According to spirit guides, every ten thousand years planet Earth shifts on its axis, causing a great flood through which some continents submerge beneath oceans, such as Atlantis and Lemuria, and others reemerge from the ocean floors which may have disappeared ten or twenty thousand years before. The book doesn’t state how long it takes for the world to shift on its axis. My guess is it takes a very long time, and there are telltale signs along the way, such as global warming, and more powerful storms. However, I’d think we are safe from total annihilation, since the last time it happened a man named Noah built an ark, less than six thousand years ago.

      1. Carl Elfstrom says:

        One can never be sure of what in the Bible is fact or fiction, truth or parable. Although we think we make well informed, educated guesses about it, until something to the contrary is dug up, or found on the side of a mountain. Just saying.

        1. Sheila says:

          ” For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (1 Cor. 13:12)

          There will be a time when we will be sure ^_~

    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      I made a mistake in that last comment by saying that 6500B.C. was 6500 years ago. It has now been 7519 years ago.

  10. Rev Buzz says:

    Reference Kim’s post regarding truth: Something is only considered to be true if it is mutually agreed to be so by all parties concerned. Otherwise, that something continues to be debatable. Throughout history, there have been many conclusions drawn from observations that led to uniform beliefs in false truths (the sun revolves around the earth) as an example. As long as everyone agrees, then that becomes the truth, based on ignorance of more information which would clearly change their minds. So, the more ignorant we are, the more likely we are to see different “truths”. While the more we seek knowledge and become better informed, the more likely we are to zero in on the actual truth. Education is the key to common understanding and the “truth.”

    1. kimberly says:

      wrong. what you’re inferring is FACT. not Truth. There is no such thing as multiple “truths”. Truth is universally constant, timeless, absolutely singular and is not definable by an accumulation of facts unless one were to have ALL facts (infinite data) which is impossible due to human limitations. Truth is Truth whether there is human knowledge of it or not. Belief is irrelevant as your example shows. And, facts change with time and do not define Truth or even lead to Truth as illustrated by someone stating “the sun is shining” which is not always factual. The reality is that Truth is acknowledgeable (intuitively acknowledged to exist by even you) but is NOT definable as you’re trying to say. You have made the exact the mistake about Truth that religionists make when claiming they “know” God.

      1. Dan Anderson says:

        kimberly – Truths are subjective. Facts are objective. One may have a truth that there is a literal heaven and hell, of a Satan, a lord Jehovah, etc. These are not facts, but ideas based on beliefs, a.k.a. personal truths.

        1. kimberly says:

          That is an excellent description of the confusion about belief (which is irrelevant) vs Truth (which is Truth regardless any subjective and/or personal idea). One cannot “believe” Truth into existence. It exists regardless of what one thinks.

    2. Lionheart says:

      I totally agree, which amazes me that Kim, who claims to be a scientist and educated, doesn’t seem to understand the need for empirical data to come to a common understanding of truth.


      1. Carl Elfstrom says:

        Jethro Bodine was educated. He completed the sixth grade. Maybe she bought a science kit from Toys R Us. That could make her think she’s a scientist. I had a magic kit from there when I was a kid, which taught me how to almost pull a rabbit out of a hat. And if that’s all it takes to be a magician by golly, she could be just as much of a scientist. They sold Estes model rockets there, too. So maybe she’s a rocket scientist, and will be blasting off to her home planet soon, if the men in white jackets don’t catch her in their net first.

  11. Carl Elfstrom says:

    Then there is seeing the whole truth, or from a single or more points of view. If someone can only see one or more points of view, but not the picture as a whole, that person is ignorant of the truth in its entirety, for part of the truth cannot tell what it is.

  12. kimberly says:

    Empirical data can substantiate fact but NOT Truth (the belief that something is factual is called a “theory”). The scientific method as that is described does not address Truth. And again..anyone who claims to “understand” Truth is a liar. A factually substantiated theory is NOT Truth. The theory is then another fact which can be true (ie/factual) but it is NOT Truth. Factual data only leads to further factual data. Not to Truth. Which can only be intuitively acknowledged to exist. Anything beyond such intuitive acknowledgement is mere speculation and most likely “belief” which doesn’t even need to be factual.

    1. Rev Buzz says:

      I’m sorry. You seem to communicate on a level that is alien to me. As soon as I think I understand a coherent thought chain, you change gears and I am at a loss as to what message you are truly trying to convey. I don’t know if this is the actual level you communicate at or if you are just trying to mess with us. In any case, you are beyond my capabilities or desire to further communicate with you.
      Do That Which Is Right!

      1. Lionheart says:

        She’s tying to convey Buzz that her truth is different to your truth, though facts point in a totally different direction. Weird isn’t it?


        1. kimberly says:

          wrong. Truth is universal. There is no “my Truth” or “your Truth” and no “Truths”. There is only Truth in absolute singularity.

          1. Sheila says:

            Kimberly’s explanation of fact vs. truth totally makes sense to me. It’s absurd that Rev Buzz and Lionheart supposedly don’t understand. But, I guess indoctrination does that to people – closes them off from seeing things for what they are when it deviates from said accepted doctrine.

            The sets of beliefs that Rev Buzz & Lionheart each have, they accept uncritically.

            I’ve so often seen such things lead to a sad state of affairs. A lot like not being able to find your way out of a paper bag – indoctrinated.

            Imagine the progress people as a whole would make if we could cure the indoctrinated atheists of their indoctrination! (Not all atheists are indoctrinated)

      2. Carl Elfstrom says:

        You’re right, Buzz. Her level of B.S. is really deep. And it takes one to know one. Just saying.

    2. Lee says:

      Jesus is the truth and he is with you now because the truth is with you now. You are trying to read the book of life and compare what you find there with books of science, The only way that you will ever know life is to be born again as Jesus said you must be. It is obvious that you are more interested in God (Love) than you are Jesus (Truth, Life, Way) when you believe that Adam is the name of an individual male and Eve is the name of an individual female, when the book does not say that at all. God’s creation of Man(species) is called Adam (both male and female). The name Eve was not given Woman by God, but was called that by Adam, and the Adam (both male and female) that brought you into this world called you Kimberly. This book is written for you and everything in applies to you from the moment of your creation in spirit form through development of you human body and through life and beyond. You must look inside yourself to find the truth because you will not find it outside either in other people or in books. You will find Jesus where he said he was and as he said he was. When you find him you will see heaven and know eternal life and learn from that what you need to be doing in this life to serve God what God wants to be served. Later you will be born again in a moment and you will know life firsthand and you will understand this book of life. That is the only way that you will ever get anything out of this book worth reading.

      1. kimberly says:

        The modern idea of being “born again” as some kind of abstract change of mind is a fake teaching. Jesus speaking of being “born again” was referring to resurrection from the grave to salvation AFTER judgment day. The Bible is clear that after actually being “born again” and “saved”, to sin in the slightest would mean no more payment for that sin. Jesus died to pay for the consequences of sin ONCE. Not many times after one is supposedly “converted”. Religion gets around this contradiction with scripture by saying one must “evolve” into perfection after having been “saved”. Which is an even further deviation from the biblical teaching. NONE have been “born again” except Jesus. Those who follow him will do so only after resurrection from the grave and baptism by fire as they stand before God as He actually is at the day of judgement. Being “born again” is NOT by water baptism or even by supposedly receiving the “Holy Ghost” (which is NOT a person but is the “breath of God’s Holiness” given to a select few such as the apostles to preach the gospel which is NOT “good news” but is the cry of a town criar running through the town to announce the coming of the King). So, your post is absolutely filled with false inferences in great contraction to the Bible.

        1 John 5:18
        We know that whosoever is born of God SINNETH NOT;

        And, Malachi 4 is not about Jesus coming as Messiah but about his return.

        For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
        2 But unto you that fear my name (namesake….SON) shall the Sun of righteousness (Jesus) arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

  13. kimberly says:

    Buzzzzz. Its quite easy actually. Belief is irrelevant since it can be factual or it cannot be. Fact or any dataset can lead one to a specific sensual (eye, ear, touch, taste, etc) conclusion except that conclusion is dependent on any number of contingent variables. Consequently, any conclusion based on factual data can change with time, location, etc or any other number of variables. It can become “non-fact”. However, Truth has no variability. It is universally consistent in every way. It is not limited to what humanity can discern based on limited senses, even when those senses are augmented. So, it is infinitely Truth. Truth is Truth yesterday, today and tomorrow. It doesn’t change to become non-Truth. It is wholly and absolutely singular in every way everywhere any time. As such, as with the concept of a past infinity (yes, there is one) without beginning, it is incomprehensible in its entirety. Yet, each of us intuitively acknowledges its existence. It makes Truth a choice of acknowledgement but nobody will reject that choice. So, belief is a whim, facts only lead to more facts ad infinitum (science concedes to this by speculating on multiple universes even) but Truth takes faith and faith means God whether one is an atheist or not. Because without God, Truth has no author and that isn’t reality. Which is as incomprehensible as Truth (reality that is).

    1. tom says:

      Kimberly…i generally agree with you, except (1) there is only God; there is no past present future; and (2) there is no “truth”; there is only awareness…Peace…Tom B

      1. kimberly says:

        awareness is based on the human senses. What you are saying is that reality is limited to the bubble of human perception. Consequently, you have defined humanity as “god”. And by working your way past the intuitive acknowledgement of God’s existence, you’ve made your own god from a human-centric perspective. That logic isn’t anything original. Most religions do exactly that.

        1. tom says:

          Kimberly…Respectfully…I am not saying that anything is based on “human senses”…”human senses”, including the usual five plus the brain, are extremely limited…the awareness of which I speak is beyond perception…it is a knowing that is beyond perception…and we all come from, and are part of God…there is no creation of God from a “human-centric” perspective…Peace…Tom B

      2. Carl Elfstrom says:

        There is always past, present, and future, and it is all happening right now, at the same time, in this present moment. The passage of time is only an illusion of this dimension.

        1. Laurie Cleveland says:

          Carl, you speak of a theory which I read in one of many books of reincarnation. It’s called, if I remember correctly, The Chessboard Theory.” The way that it was shown is that all lives are going on at the same time in the same space, which I still hae trouble wrapping my mind about it, but it was better described in The Golden Compass: His Dark Materials by Phillip Putnam. There were actually 3 books, but they’ve conveniently put it into one. There was a contract done for all 3 and for some reason they scuttled the whole project after The Golden Compass was made into a movie. It’s a shame because it has a lot to do with what has happened and what is happening now and what will happen in the future and although it’s supposed to be a Children’s or Young Adult book, it really is more Adult. Good books, very well-writeen and gives you a better understanding of this theory.. The theory of many worlds all in the space of a pinhead. Interesting concept.

    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      And your point is ? What does any of that have to do with how old planet Earth really is ? Do you even remember that question ? I mean the one that we are supposed to be talking about. And that’s not a theory about truth, but the absolute truth, believe it or not.

      1. Carl Elfstrom says:

        Yes Kimberly, we can tell that you’re very intelligent. So what are you doing here? Why don’t you join Mensa, and read Parabola magazine?

        1. Carl Elfstrom says:

          By the way, did you know that what goes up must come down.And that spinning wheels got to be round, which has something to do with riding a painted pony. And by the way, what’s more important, feeding the people or paving the roads? Mensa might ask you something like that. Also, be sure to tell them, without hesitation, that the chicken came before the egg, for all lifeforms evolved from lower lifeforms, and a lower lifeforms of a chicken could not produce a chicken egg before it became a chicken. Just saying.

          1. Carl Elfstrom says:

            And by the way, I turned down Mensa. I don’t like arrogant, ostentatious, buffoons. I’d rather run off bullshitters from this blog, so we can finally start getting down to truly spiritual matters. Love ya, Kimberly. Kiss, kiss.

          2. kimberly says:

            Have you ever been to a Mensa meeting? Its a bunch of acned kids sitting in a rented classroom trying to up each other. Speaking of the chicken or the egg paradox………..When I was one of those kids, I was headed down a country road (mark of the beast) in my mustang (image of the beast) doing 90 mph plus. A chicken wandered across the road and I hit it full on. Looking in the rear-view mirror all I saw was a beautiful cloud of feathers blowing in the wind of my passing. Moral of the story……….Eggs don’t cross the road in front of my mustang so they not only came first…they came last. The chicken is just a buncha feathers blowing in the wind.

      2. kimberly says:

        The age of the planet (which is a FACT) is quite easy to ascertain based on factual data. Scientists put together a deep-sky mosaic, providing a portrait of the distant universe containing 265,000 galaxies that stretches back through 13.3 billion years, using data from NASA’s Hubble Space Telescope. Based on that data, the Cosmos is AT LEAST that old. We haven’t been able to find the “end” of the Universe so we don’t have a definitive age and probably never will. The reason this is reliable data is based on the speed of light. A physical constant. However, the Genesis creation event is not the Cosmos creation event. They were separate events. How do we know this? By the word “replenish” in the Bible. It was used to command Adam to REPENISH the planet. The same word was used to command Noah to REPLENISH the world. And, King David described the Genesis event by using the word RENEWEST in Psalms 104:30. To not recognize that the Genesis event was NOT creation of the Cosmos is where the confusion lies. The Genesis event was terraforming an existing and dead planet which happened long after the saurian ecosystem was destroyed and the dinosaurs went extinct.

      3. Laurie Cleveland says:

        Carl, you have a very sharp wit and great sense of humor, but I wonder, if after all of the word swapping that Kim got the point? Just sayin’.

  14. John Thornton says:

    The major problem I see here is in accepting the premise that the young earther’s put foward. They claim the Bible says the Earth is only 6000 years old. That premise is BOGUS. No where in the Bible does that statement happen. No where in the Bible is the age of the Earth or the universe stated. No where.
    Young Earth Creationism does not have biblical supported. The YECs do not take the Bible seriously and do not read it correctly.
    Exodus 20:6 “showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
    Exodus 34:7 “keeping steadfast love for the thousandth generation”
    Deuteronomy 5:10 “showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation”
    Jeremiah 32:18 “You show steadfast love to the thousandth generation”
    1 Chronicles 16:15 “Remember his covenant forever, the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations…”
    Is a generation only SIX YEARS LONG?
    For me, it comes down to respecting what the Bible actually says. Yes, the Bible has historical records or real life people. But the Bible also has many parables, symbols, metaphors, and allegories. So starting with basics, no where in the Bible is the age of the Earth given. No where does it say that Genesis 1 is literal 24 hour periods. In fact, in 2 Peter 3:8 we know “a day is like a thousand years” so that proves some of the “days” in the Bible are not literal 24 hour periods. See also Psalm 90:4.
    And since the literal definition of a day is one revolution of the earth on its axis in relation to the sun, a literal day could not have happened until day 4 of Genesis 1, because only on day 4 was the sun created.
    Then consider Genesis 2:4 “These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.” To me that is convincing proof that Genesis chapter one is poetry and not a literal account. It still teaches a real truth, but does not teach anything about science. The Bible is God’s word to us, but the Young Earther view puts their own ideas INTO the Bible and does not let the Bible speak for itself. In my opinion, when YEC force the Bible to conform to their ideas they are doing a disservice to Christianity.
    So, a person is best served by looking at the BOGUS premises of the Young Earthers and remembering that the Young Earther might scream and rant about being “true to the Bible” but they are not.

  15. Cash Lewis says:

    Kim is right about everything. Athiesm is a religion. All of the stuff you wrote here today since written is teachable to anybody reading thus thread therefore making it doctrine. God put that Spirit of Slumber over a few of you or you just dont have the eyes to see. Your responses to Kim are very egoistic which is the fallen state of man but I know you received it what she shared. If you believe that facts or beliefs prove truth then your actually the alien. Honestly, truth is truth and never requires proof. It also never requires belief. Thats why IAM is truth. IAM Is. Truth cant even be proven right or wrong. Write or wrong requires a bias of personal perception or belief. None of which is TRUTH. You cant even argue truth. You cant form truth. You cant rationalize truth. The only people who attempt to do so are religious for the lack of seeing, knowing or understanding what IAM IS. You can call it crazy or foreign(alien) because its beyond your scope in your fallen state.

    1. Lionheart says:

      Yes Cash, truth is truth, and what you believe is a lie, all created by the need to believe. Have no fear, you aren’t on your own.


  16. Jeff McClain says:

    Very interesting, keeping ones mind open and trying to undestand rather than come to a distinct conclusion makes most sense to me, after all, if we come to distinct conclusions as man has for ever and a day that to me would be the definition of ignorance.

  17. Sheila says:

    Reading about finding bone marrow in a T-Rex bone that was accidentally dropped from a helicopter carrying it was the no-brainer for me realizing it couldn’t be from millions of years ago. I wonder if Pat Robertson even knows the details that refute dinosaurs existing millions of years ago and the fallibility of carbon dating when catastrophic things happen such as a world flood, or even other things that have things appear older etc. than they are? Anyway – bone marrow isn’t going to stay intact for millions of years later.

    1. kimberly says:

      such tales are an excellent example of trying to justify a false premise (young earth) and they are a lie.

      1. Sheila says:

        Oh how funny – he didn’t want to talk about how old the bones are. Convenient.

        And then push out there people are saying this is oozing out and soft as regular “just been dead” bone marrow. Who says that of bone marrow that’s 1000s of years old? I didn’t see it in the article I read, or from others. He discredits himself by picking out absurd statements and applying it to “that’s what all these young earth people are saying” type thing; when it really these young earth people are not saying that. They are saying it’s consistent with bone marrow being 1000s of years old, and NOT millions of years old.

        He needs to get his story straight.

        A fairly unbiased story exists here:
        It’s more fantastic than what’s described in the YouTube video.

        Regardless, the age is important. The estimation of how long iron can preserve something might be reasonable – and maybe it really doesn’t make sense for millions of years to be true.

        Agendas are annoying, so annoying when it leads people distort info to support their agenda – like the guy in the YouTube video did. Use an amount of truth, then add the distorted stuff to support his agenda. Annoying.

        Oh, BTW, you’ve no idea if young earth is true or not. But, you think you do.

      2. Laurie Cleveland says:

        Whether or not a helicoptor dropped a T-Rex or not, we have a lot of skeletal evidence for it and they are still finding intact mammoths, etc. that also were prehistoric. While you can make fun of this particular incident, it really is a no-brainer that things evolved. There are Hopi prophies that state that we are in the 4th Turtle Island and that the 5th is upon us. Each one was marked by some sort of catastrophic event which occur at regular intervals throughout time. Who knows? They could look at your bones or DNA at some point in the future and say, “Wow! Here’s another prehistoric man! Look how different he is from us!” I know that you are laughing, and I’m getting a chuckle of it myself, but think about it. This is history.

        1. kimberly says:

          No..its not history. Its archaeology. Evolutionists imply there is no distinction but there is. And, there’s a difference between being frozen and being fossilized.

  18. David says:

    OMG, I am soooo ‘Ready for the Rapture’! Can’t wait till they all fly away. If heaven is full of Christians, I choose Hell.

  19. David says:

    If “The Bible” truly is the word of God unchanging and everlasting, why are there so many different versions? And couldn’t an all-powerful, all-knowing GOD just forgive us without having to torture and murder his child?

    1. Rev Buzz says:

      Your free thinking makes you a prime candidate for membership in the FFrF (Freedom From religion Foundation).
      Continue questioning; doing so can lead to answers.

    2. Sheila says:

      David, you’re dreaming. Literally. Try out “A Course In Miracles” and it will tell you that.
      “For God so love the world, He gave it to Him, His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
      ACIM says that adding “He gave it to Him” is the only way that makes sense.
      Jesus said regarding His life, “No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from My Father.” (John 10:18)

      God did NOT murder and torture His Son.

      Why so many versions of the Bible? Why isn’t it more shocking for you that the Truth is in each version?

      But, you know, there is such a thing as Satan. Jesus told us a house divided falls (Mark 3:25). So, do you really think that Satan isn’t going to do all he can to divide the church?
      It even happened in the Bible – though Satan was given no blame for it (1 Cor. 1:12-31)

      1 Cor. 1 is abundant insight into “why so many versions” and why what’s important is, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

      Realize we incapable of seeing clearly, “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. (1Cor. 13:12).

      But, as my eyes get worse with age, it doesn’t stop me from trying to see clearly. That’s an analogy from me to you, for you to understand that just because we are incapable of seeing clearly, it ought not stop us from trying.

      1. Lionheart says:

        If there is a god you could be right Sheila, God did not murder and torture his son. It does appear though that the Bible is replete with instances where your god did murder lots of others that got under his skin though. He seemed to have anger management issues, possibly fueled by his admitted jealousy. Weird isn’t it, for someone who we are supposed to look up to for our morals?

        If we are to learn anything from that book of fables it’s “don’t do as I do”.

        Alice In Wonderland is a far better book to read, especially for children. No blood and gore, and threats of religious blackmail, and you won’t reach for antidepressants after reading it. Each to their own I guess!


        1. Sheila says:

          Good news Lionheart – stick with understanding the New Testament first. Really what do you understand about the New Testament?

          More good news! – The Book does NOT teach “don’t do as I do” but does teach, “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another” (John 13:34)

          Religious blackmail? “Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31-32)
          Good news! That doesn’t sound threatening at all! Or, do you really dread the thought of loving others as Jesus loves you under the new covenant? Honestly, that’s a threat to you?

          As for the old covenant, and the Old Testament – for whatever reason, I guess currently that’s too deep for you to understand. I think part of it may have to do with your lack of understanding the implications of, “it is impossible for God to lie” (within Hebrews 6:18). Also, you don’t seem to have understanding about choices and consequences either – maybe someday you will. Someday you may be able to handle the truth. Good news! – It’ll definitely happen if you love others as Jesus loves you – by way of the new covenant, He bought you for a price (1 Corinthians 6:19-20 & 1 Corinthians 7:23). Drat, I suppose you’ll take that as some sort of “religious blackmail” that Jesus wants you to die to ransom your life for others – since that’s the sort of thing you’re likely looking to see, even though it’s not there. First off, Jesus already paid the ransom. Second off, He wants you to have life and have it abundantly (John 10:10).

          You said, “Weird isn’t it, for someone who we are supposed to look up to for our morals?”
          Well maybe in a “fact is often stranger than fiction” sort of way it’s weird. But from my knowledge bank it’s not weird at all – because I get it; and you’re not trying to get it. But, good news! – God under old covenant in the Old Testament taught: “Love your neighbor as yourself” (within Leviticus 19:18). And there’s SO MANY instances of the Israelites people being foreigners – not Jews by birth. Just one example is Ruth, ” Your people will be my people and your God my God” (within Ruth 1:16). Such people were to follow the same laws as the Israelites by birth, and reap the benefits of the same blessings and promises. This is true also by New Testament – christians are Israelites, all of them (Romans 9:6-7 & Romans 11:11-31).

          I’ve often wondered what would have happened if Moses had plead for all peoples the way he had plead to save the other 11 tribes of Israel (Ex. 32:10-14). But, it doesn’t matter. Jesus preached to the people in prison (1 Pet. 3:18-20) and seems slow so as to save more people (2 Pet. 3:9).

          Some not so good news – this could all be of your creation Lionheart. All of it. All the children dying of cancer, the Scientific Method, and also all the strange and weird stuff that’s ever happened – if you’ve ever witnessed such a thing. All of it made up by you. Reality really could be you are the ONLY being in existence. And the Scientific Method would be hopelessly out of reach of ever ascertaining the ultimate truth.
          Yeah – just another one of those things I used to fathom about back when I was between the ages of 4 and 6. Not about you of course, but about me – not to confuse you. But if you are the one making all this up, you do a mighty fine job confusing yourself and literally need no help from me.

          You know regarding the children dying of cancer you could quit asking God “God why don’t You do something?” He did. He created you!

          Everyone was born a healer (John 14:12) – and it’s Grandmaster Chunyi Lin’s book ( I’ve instantaneously healed 2 different cats at 2 different times. Instantaneously! Prior to age 39, I only dreamed of seeing something so incredible. One was an injured foot, and the other was an asthma attack that wasn’t stopping. I’ve used qigong & EFT & Quantum Techniques, and of course prayer, for so many other miraculous things. But none of them hit me as starkly as awestruck as those 2 instantaneous healing of the cats using Chunyi’s Spring Forest Qigong. No surprise, the effectiveness of his qigong was found in a Mayo Clinic study: . BTW, Chunyi is Buddhist – although that’s probably not a completely accurate description of his beliefs.

          Good news! You can choose to crawl out of that paper bag you’re in and experience the miraculous wonders of the world. And, God did create you to do something about the children dying of cancer. You CAN heal them.
          (And, yes, He cured Smallpox, too – you know, using those people. Sometime, you might understand that).

  20. Cash Lewis says:

    David, the many versions are mans inspiriation from Gods inspiration. They are linguistical interpretations. Theres no genius or science or anything beyond an elementary education required to understand that. The all-knowing all-powerful could have and didnt torture his child. Man tortured his child. Just like man has tortured man for generations beyond since his childs death. Christ walk, death then resurrection was showing us our daily walk, our daily death and how me must over come egoism (all evil things and sin) cleansing and waking the light and love in us. Someone mentioned choosing hell over heaven. Well the fact is hell is simply seperation from the Spirit of Love which is God. Is that ache you feel when the love of your life breaks up with you, leaves you and you cant get them back even with begging. You have to watch them go and be happy with someone else and your depressed and sick over it. Its that pain of loosing a grandparent or mom or dad or sister that meant the world to you or your child sick and dying but theres nothing you can do to fix. Seperation from God is an ache that makes you want to kill yourself or hurt yourself. It a pain that burns and makes you feel like your blood doesnt want to flow and your heart wants to stop. It places your spirit on fire, your brain swells, your eyes burn from all the salt in your tears. These emotions are in us for a reason. Stirred into our genetic make up and creation for a reason. Jesus came because he knew the only way we could believe would be to see with our own eyes “God in Flesh” and without that physical manifestiation we would never be reconnected to God because we are creatures who are in a fallen state which is a very high state of egoism.

  21. Catherine Ohrin-Greipp, MSW, ADS, OM says:

    And Now for the latest: Even older Fossil tracks were reported about the find in the Grand Canyon just this week. 280 million years old. Now what would the creationists say about that? The 280-million-year-old fossil tracks date to almost the beginning of the Permian Period, prior to the appearance of the earliest dinosaurs. For those of you who are actually interested here is the link:
    I live in AZ and have lived and traveled throughout the state. One can go and visit Navajo Rez and stop by and see the dinosaur tracks in No. AZ and talk to the people.

  22. Secretary3rd says:

    Why do you ask in the first place? If God wanted to give you the answer then it would send you a memo. But then you would have to be able to read and there is no reason for you to read in the first place. In the Book of the Ori it says that the only reason your allow to read in the first place is to read the words of the Ori all others reasons is against the Will of the Ori. The age of everything is a knowledge that only the Ori knows.

  23. fred klink says:

    Talk about mind control the bible folks sure dig deep in their bag of magical thinking to defend a no brainer it’s called a myth right? Some old stories changed to suit the times and people. No myth in history can stand facts proof any closer look smoke mirrors. Billions and billions of years. Every god ever made was for the times. Creators had their times all neat explained for them folks longer knowledge was controlled the bigger myths grew. We need a new way to care and explain how to be better folks right? Bible is a good stories book it’s very outdated. Places change with time but memes live in us all just because we hear them. One group can force their myths by outlawing all but theirs interchanging stories to give theirs a friendly kind of feel too.

    1. kimberly says:

      As for the Bible being outdated……….. Is the statue of liberty presiding over immigration from all people of the world a “great whore sitting on many waters (peoples)” or isn’t it? Is an A-bomb an “a-bomination of desolation” or isn’t it? Is a dinosaur the “beast that was (prehistoric) and is not (extinct) yet is (fossils) or isn’t it? It is religion that rejects the Bible and makes it’s own “god”. Not science. The Bible is a book of law and a witness against mankind for when the time comes. It is not a history book, not an instruction manual and not an outdated religious story book.

    2. Sheila says:

      Fred – you say, “One group can force their myths by outlawing all but theirs interchanging stories to give theirs a friendly kind of feel too.”
      Yes, that is what atheist’s want regarding their atheism. You know, to allow no practice of “religion” in public, so only their mythological atheism is present in public under the guise that somehow it’s not a religion, despite how the dictionary and the spirit of the Constitution define “religion” to include atheism. And then atheists give it a friendly feel such as come up with terms like, “circle of life.”

      Talk about mind control. Hypocrite.

      It’s been said that fact is often stranger than fiction. I don’t know what sort of dull life you’ve lived, but it’s most definitely true that fact is often stranger than fiction. People believing a lie over the truth about what happened in a particular instance because the lie makes more sense. And, the only people who know for sure otherwise (that the truth that seems false really is true) is those who experienced said situation.

  24. Laurie Cleveland says:

    Kimberly, The original teachings in The Holy Bible have been modified quite frequently throughout history. When Peter got in bed with Constantine, Constantine sent out soldiers all through Egypt and other places to destroy places like the library at Alexandria and monestaries alll up the Nile. It”s historical fact. What they didn’t know, fortunately, is that there were enough level-headed people who had advanced warning to get the most important scrolls out of their libraries before the monestaries were burned to the ground and everybody slaughtered so there would be no witnesses as to what was done. Not all of the works, unfortunately, survived and some are in really bad condition since really old papyrus doesn’t do well when exposed to air and many of these artifacts were found in bizarres, etc. for people looking to make a quick buck. Again. Fact. This whole purge was the result of the Council at Nicea and other such clashes. It is all about control. Control of the church, control of the masses. Take your pick. Many scholars believe that the phrase, “In My house there are many mansions…” is a reference to reincarnation. Again, while there are still some things that got missed here and there, that whole business was taken out. Then there is the question that Yeshua, God and Mary or whatever with the immaculate conception (trust me, there IS no immaculate conception and if you think about the whole thing, you will understand what I am saying, but for brevity’s sake, again, to make Christianity more popular with the masses, Isis and her son Horus and the male Egyptian god, whose name escapes me at the current time, probably because I have had little sleep, lol, all of that was over-imposed over the original story line. As they said in the DaVinci Code,+ one minute, he was a mortal man and the next a god.” Yes, even in fiction lies truth. At any rate, this does not negate that he was an incredible teacher and at some point in time, he was converted to his true place as a Son of God or True Prophet of God, the latter also discussed in the Qu’ran and other religious books at the time. Then there his is connection to The Essenes, who were pretty much wiped out and the Gnotics, who still survive, but probably, because of the basis of their teachings, again, much has been lost over the course of theh centuries. I grew up with the King James Version of The Holy Bible. Every time that it is re-written, things are taken out, including the ones that supposedly were translated directly from old Aramaic versions. So, it’s not so much as outdated, but that it’s been chopped to hell and back to suit some Pope or other person and to control the masses.

    1. Laurie Cleveland says:

      I leave you with one further comment, Kim. Look up The Lord’s Prayer translated from the original Aramaic and see the different ways in which it can be translated. Each translation brings in a different element–Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Spirit. Very interesting. Then, there is the Abywoon, which is The Lord’s Prayer sung in Aramaic. Very beautiful, but somewhat different from what either Protestants or Catholics say today (the Catholic version being cut off at the end). You may also note that there was a schism iin The Church, also around or shortly after The Council of Nicea. Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox. Then further on, you have The Reformation with Luther who was the father of the Protestant movement, which is comprised of many different types of Christianity. Through all of this, there are still monestaries in Ethiopia who claim that they have the original tabernacle of Moses. Finally, there are Churches like the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) who believe that as Mr. Smith and company found Golden Tablets left by an angel, similiar to those written down by Moses and by Mohammed, and they have an entirely different way of worship. You could add in Mennonites and Amish who also believe differently. Finally, we have Native American spirituality and the spirituality that the slaves that were brought over from Africa. You can see that played out best in Spiritism in Brazil, which is actually 3 different types, 2 of which, in order to become ordained, one must actuall go to a Catholic Church as part of it and each African God is worshipped as a different saint. I haven’t even gotten into the rest of the religions, but merely giving you an understanding of how changes have been made over the centuries and how many different expressions of Christianity that there actually are. Each one claims that it is the correct version and, from my way of thinking, they are probably right as God/Goddess has shown themselves to many people in ways in which they can understand.

      1. kimberly says:

        ah..the ole “Christianity originated from paganism”. I totally agree. Christianity does come from paganism. However, it has nothing to do with the Bible since Christianity is a very warped interpretation of the Bible heavily influenced by paganism. The Bible is incomparable with both Christianity and paganism. When some say that it is, they forget the devil is in the details. There might be a vague similarity in a rare instance but when one looks at the details there is no comparison with the canonized Bible.

    2. Sheila says:

      Laurie Cleveland, you say, “Then there is the question that Yeshua, God and Mary or whatever with the immaculate conception (trust me, there IS no immaculate conception…”

      Well of course there was the immaculate conception, “And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel” (Genesis 3:15). Woman doesn’t have seed, the prophesy was a foretelling of the virgin birth of Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14)

      Virgin birth isn’t all that shocking scientifically:
      If it can happen artificially, how do we know it’s never spontaneously happened.
      I don’t know why that 2004 study on mice is such a big deal. Back in 1984 or so we watched a study in high school where a rabbit had baby rabbits that were all of her own eggs being put together – not even 2 separate mothers – same mother.
      Really who’s to say that eggs NEVER spontaneously combo and produce a female?

      Anyway, the miraculous part of Jesus’ birth was that He was MALE born of a VIRGIN. Moses wrote Genesis and the record of the foretelling that a MALE would be born of a virgin.

      The virgin birth wasn’t “made up” to make Christianity more popular with the masses. The virgin birth was foretold, and it happened. It’s important because it’s impossible for God to lie.

      Do you realize that the grand copycat is Satan? Probably can’t fathom that because it seems too simplistic and blame casting.

      Truth is truth regardless of what it seems like. If you are paranoid someone is going to murder you, it doesn’t protect you from RIGHTLY ascertaining someone is rushing at you with a knife ready to kill you. But, if you survive, due to your recognized paranoia, people are going to be less likely to believe you.

      Case-in-point, appearances can be deceiving. All the supposed “virgin births” tales prior to Moses putting the prophesy into print, could have all been Satan copycats. Although also possibly people just being creative with their tales. It doesn’t make the actual prophesy given immediately at the time death began, any less true.

    3. kimberly says:

      Laurie….your post presumes Peter started the “church” Jesus said he would build. Not so. Jesus stated he would build HIS church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. Meaning that when he returned, he would assemble his elect and it would be they who would never need die again. It was a prophecy of the resurrection at his return. It was not a dictate in which Peter was to build a religious organization that wouldn’t end. There is no “immortal church” in the Bible. However, you are correct in that Constantine was the originator of Christianity. A fake religion and a false church splintered ad infinitum over history. This was prophesied by Jesus as well.

      Matthew 24:5
      For MANY shall come in my name (as my “brothers”…as “brethren”…as “Christians”), saying, I (Jesus) am Christ (true); and shall deceive many.

  25. kimberly says:

    Laurie…there are different manuscripts but the manuscripts have never been re-written. Just the translation. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Constantine and subsequent religious traditions and interpretations have changed since the time of Jesus which brought in an amazing array of paganism. For example, we all know that Christmas contains an extensive list of pagan traditions in the holiday. Its mentioned in pulpits every year and we’re told to “ignore that”. For example Matt 28:19 is an errant inclusion in the text by Constantine (most likely) that trinitarians “prove” their doctrine. There are horrendously inaccurate modern translations as well. Again…don’t mistake orthodox Christianity with the actual witness of the Apostles writings in the canonized text.

  26. I.S. Johnson says:

    First, men wrote the bible. Second, if you are not born of a Jewish mother the old testament has nothing to do with you. The old testament was fulfilled with the coming of Jesus. Third, the only two concepts that you need to follow in the new testament are Love God with all your heart and place nothing before this love and do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The rest is commentary. Finally, there is no split between Creationism and Evolution. God created everything this includes evolution which god used to change the primates present on earth into the vessel it chose to carry souls through this plane of existence after many souls split themselves to experience the physical form re: sex and became trapped in the material plane. Prior to that souls projected themselves into the material plane by their own divine abilities. However in that state they were androgynous, sexless. Souls split themselves into positive and negative aspects, Male/Female . This split rendered them unable to incarnate at will leaving them trapped and in danger of losing all divinity. God stepped in and chose a form and then via glands and hormones in the primate forms accelerating their progression into what we call modern man, us. God then put into place the path for these souls to escape this plane of existence.

    Dogmatic drivel is just that, drivel. If you cannot get past it you may as well build a statue of Molek and toss babies into its fires in hopes of rain.

    All God really wants from us is to be kind to each other and take care of each other. Why is it that seems to be the last thing most people want to do?

    Of course, if Mr. Robertson is starting to understand perhaps there is hope for us all yet.

    As always I bid you peace.

    I.S. Johnson

    1. Lionheart says:

      Absolutely fascinating! I’ve always loved science fiction stories. Do you know any others?


    2. Rev Buzz says:

      In response to I S Johnson

      You say the rest is just commentary, and then you proceed to provide a lot of commentary. I take exception to one of the two concepts that you say god wants us to follow (love him and do unto others as we want done unto us).

      Unfortunately, many proponents of the “golden rule” have caused a great deal if harm. The “platinum rule” is much more conducive to peace and harmony than the golden rule. Many do not want to have done unto them the same as you want done onto you. The platinum rule advocates doing unto others as THEY want done unto them. Many nations as well as religions attempt to indoctrinate others to their beliefs, against their will. This has led to many wars. If you are opposed to treating others the way they want to be treated, at least avoid trying to force your beliefs on them. Do that which is right.

      1. kimberly says:

        that’s because the “golden rule” is NOT “do unto others as you would have them do to you”. It was changed to John 13:34. ie/love others as Jesus loved us. and Jesus gave up his life. so the “golden rule” is “do unto others MORE than you do unto yourself”

        1. Rev Buzz says:


          I guess you didn’t understand my earlier post where I stated I no longer desire to correspond with you on any topic, because of your convoluted thinking. This is another prime example of your changing the long accepted meaning of the golden rule. You really need to understand how to stay on topic without just making things up to suit your arguments.

          1. Lionheart says:

            Than, Buzz, don’t correspond. No one is forcing you.

            She’s entitled to respond to anyone, and any topic, on this blog just like your good self.


          2. Tom Blumenthal says:

            Lionheart…I agree completely about Kimberly…Peace…Tom B

          3. Rev Buzz says:

            Response to Lionheart, May 29, 2:05 PM.

            I didn’t state that Kimberly didn’t have the right to respond on any topic, just that she should learn how to communicate in a more effective manner, if she wants to be understood and given any credence to her comments.

            NOTE: Lionheart, there was no response button beliow your comment, that is why I posted my comment here.

        2. Lionheart says:

          Buzz, I actually didn’t know there were any rules on how to communicate on this blog as long as comments were reasonably civil.

          I genuinely hope my replies fall in line with your guidelines.

          Peace ✌🏼


      2. Laurie Cleveland says:

        Here’s an idea. I am an eclectic Wiccan. We believe that whatever you put out, you get back x 3. Put out good, you get good back. Put out bad and it comes back x 3. Really puts the responsibility for your actions right where it belongs–you. We also believe in “Do what you will, but let it harm none. ” Similar to the Golden Rule. But above all of this is “Love is the law.” I am an RN by trade in the home health field. The majority of my patients loved me because I didn’t just go in and do whatever task I was assigned. I sat down and treated them like I would have treated a family member or the way that I wanted to be treated. Unless you are willing to walk the walk and forget about changing somebody’s religion or how they live their lives, you are a hypocrite. Almost all religions show another face of the IAM. Everytime someone takes something out of context to support their argument, there is always trouble. If you truly believe in what you preach, then you have the responsibility to mirror your beliefs.

  27. Sheila says:

    The Scientific Method.

  28. Sheila says:

    Rev Buzz – “Do unto others as THEY want done unto them” isn’t so great either.
    1) We’re not mind readers, and so easier to be in touch with what we’d want done unto us as likely for what another would want done unto them
    2) “For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.” Heb 12:11
    Discipline sounds like something no one wants. What would children turn out like (if they lived) if parents never disciplined them but gave them everything they wanted, and ONLY things they wanted? Not good is a simple answer.
    3) etc, a whole lot more problematic with “platinum law,” but I’ll stop w/ those 2 examples.

    You want to do it right? Follow the new commandment:
    “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” John 13:34
    This circumvents any problems with the Golden Rule. Such as you hate yourself and want others to punish you, it’s not ok to punish others because you want to be punished – you are to love others, including yourself then, as Jesus loves you – like He loved His first disciples when He was man.

    BTW, a whole lot more harm would be done by following the “Platinum Law” than the “Golden Rule.”

    1. Rev Buzz says:

      In response to Sheila:
      As I have often said; if something can be misunderstood, it will be.
      1. I agree that we can’t read other peoples minds to know how they want to be treated. Hence, the need for effective communication to find out from them how they want to be treated. Treating others the way you want to be treated, may be insulting to them in their culture.
      2. Of course I agree that we can’t let children dictate to parents how they want to be treated. To do so would be abandoning our role as parents, to guide them to become responsible and productive members of society.
      3. My error in my earlier post, was not making it clear that treating people as they wish to be treated, applies to societal norms for that group of people or religion. I still contend that not being respectful of the needs of others, can result in unintended consequences, resentment and even hostility. That is what I meant, when I stated that the “golden Rule” has often resulted in wars. When one nation or group of people believes that its form of government, religion, or economic policies is right for all and tries to impose those beliefs on others, that is where real harm can result.
      I hope these clarifications have been helpful. Again I say; if you don’t want to treat others the way they want to be treated, at least don’t try to impose your ways on them.

  29. I.S. Johnson says:

    In response to all the above I say this. I am not trying to change anyone’s mind. I simply comment on truth as I have found it to be. I do not claim to have all the answers. I thought it was love your neighbor as Jesus loved the church, the church being all humanity not a building. I use the ‘do unto others’ version because it is only slightly different but more recognizable. How can the writing of an apostle supersede that of the savior? Also, changing people’s minds is both pointless and unnecessary. Mostly within a hundred years of each person’s birth they will die. The soul that has inhabited the mortal vessel with return to the plane of the masters where the truth will be innately understood. Then you will be instructed in what you need and return to earth in a new life or leave this system on the progression of the soul. Debate if you like, I am just commenting. What is cannot be altered, especially by debate. All things in this world will rot and molder in time, including dogma, bibles, churches, guns, drugs, money, constitutions, etc. Only the soul is eternal. Our time in this world is a mere bagatelle.

    I like what the Wiccan lady said. Love and kindness are the truth of wisdom. Think what you like. Do not let me interfere.

    It’s 96 degrees in the shade. I am going for some lemonade.

    Peace be with you.

    I.S. Johnson

    1. tom b says:

      I.S. Johnson…I agree with and understand what you have said about our immortal souls and reincarnation here or progression….and I also agree that our lives are “best” lived by being compassionate, loving and forgiving…Peace…TomB

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