An Arizona school board member is suing her school district on First Amendment grounds after being told to stop quoting the Bible during public school board meetings.
Heather Rooks has been serving the Peoria Unified School District as a board member since January of this year. Her four children attend the Phoenix-area school district, which is one of the largest in the state.
During the “board comments” portion of each meeting, Rooks would quote biblical passages she believed relevant.
Despite being told repeatedly to stop, she refused. Now, she’s suing the school district for her right to continue to bring God to school.
Mass is in Session?
The trouble began almost immediately after Rooks began her first term in January, when she quoted Joshua 1:9 from the Hebrew Bible.
“Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go,” she reportedly recited at one of her first school board meetings.
Shortly thereafter, the district reportedly instructed Rooks to stop quoting religious scripture during school board meetings… instructions she politely declined.
She quoted scripture again in April. This time, Psalm 16. For Rooks, the biblical passages and quotations were a source of strength, intended to embolden herself and other Christians during frenzied and demanding board meetings.
“It gave me strength and it gave me the courage as a board member during those board meetings because they get pretty hectic, they get very stressful," she explained.
Patience Runs Out
Having now caught the attention of secular rights groups, the school board stopped asking Rooks stop, and started demanding.
School board president David Sandoval reportedly told Rooks to cease quoting scripture at least as early as March, following a myriad of complaints from secular watchdog groups like Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF).
It would “be in the best interest of the District” for board members to stop quoting scripture during meetings, read an email sent in July by the board’s legal counsel. “We were also told that reciting scripture at a board meeting on this side of the dais goes against the establishment clause as well," explained Sandoval to Rooks back in March.
At a subsequent meeting, Rooks explained that she’d stop quoting scripture… for the time being. She warned that she will “have my attorneys at First Liberty Institute handle this matter.”
Now she’s suing.
Here We Go Again
With the backing of First Liberty Institute – the same group that helped high school football coach Joe Kennedy win the legal right to pray on the field with students – Rooks hopes to restore her perceived right to formally recite scripture in her role as a public school board member.
"It is a protected right under the free exercise clause of the First Amendment. It’s a protected right under the free speech protection of the First Amendment,” explains Rooks’ attorney.
Her case has since caught the attention of evangelical leader Franklin Graham, who wrote in support of her case:
Rooks’ attorney also underlines that she isn’t trying to create any Christian converts with her prayers. “Heather is not trying to proselytize anyone,” he stated. “She’s not trying to state what should be in the curriculum. She simply recites a verse to give her strength to help her through these meetings."
Critics have pointed out that if Rooks is truly just hoping to find strength in the word of Jesus, perhaps she could do that in a silent form of prayer.
Proselytizing, or Private Prayer?
Rooks says she “never thought that would happen in America” – and clearly some faith leaders sympathize with her position.
But in a response to Graham's comments, the FFRF countered that “it’s actually not that hard to understand”:
Critics have also posed the question: what if the shoe was on the other foot? What if a school board member had been quoting from the Quran, or the Bhagavad Gita, or announcing her belief that there is no God – would she be likely to receive the same kind of legal support?
What do you think? Does praying during school board meetings constitute a public endorsement of Christianity?
When it comes to public schools, elected board members, and the world of faith, can there be any intersection?
251 comments
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Lionheart
Perhaps she’d be happy with me standing up at a meeting and quoting Dumbledore from the Harry Potter books. It’s arguably a better work of fiction than the one she quotes from.
It wonder if I could file a lawsuit if I was banned from doing so? 🤔
🦁❤️
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ServantOfJudgement
Alas, there's no brilliantly wise words of wisdom in any of the potter series. Pick mark twain, I hear he had some good ones. Do that for real and you'll get a pass, guaranteed. Probably applauded.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ServantOfJudgement The Bible’s brilliant wise words of wisdom are about pornography, rape, murder, killing of babies, slavery, and treating women as ****.
At least the brilliant wise words of wisdom in Harry Potter are rated P. There’s no pornography, rapping, murder or killing of babies.
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ServantOfJudgement
Douglas,
Pornography - The only mention of pornography in the bible was made by Paul telling churches to get rid of pornographic drawings. God is in opposition to pornography, man is thrilled with it, we can google it nowadays.
Rape- The only remaining females from the now destroyed Sodomites raped their own father. God destroyed every man woman and child in that morally bankrupt city because they would only get worse as they taught their children to do the same. Like our schools are doing right now. God later destroyed all of Lot and his rapists daughters offspring for the same.
Murder- Though shall not commit murder. Have you seen the global murder rate?
Slavery- The corrupt man must enslave, like our Chinese slaves working for us right now. God said slaves are to be freed after 7 years, not like we're doing to our Chinese slaves. Also, the slaves God speaks of were willing, they sold themselves. We just take ours until death.
Killing of babies- morally bankrupt adults produce morally bankrupt children. That's why the babies in Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed along with the pre flood babies. So far the USA killed 65 million babies since 1973 and counting. You should stand up against babies killing if you're worried about it.
Poor treatment of women- God eradicated city states for treating their women poorly, it's documented. He appointed women as judges over men. God gave women liberation before USA did. Now we're letting men pretend to be women, treating real women like s***.
Did I miss anything?
Oh yea, Harry potter is boring.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ServantOfJudgement You have missed a lot. If Harry Potter is boring why are there 7 books? It’s the best selling book series in history. The Bible is so boring which is why there only one unless you are Mormon then there are two.
You also missed that people just aren’t reading the Bible anymore… especially young people. The stores are just not entertaining like Harry Potter.
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler,
What a weak and uninformed argument!
The Bible has 66 books, 73 for the Catholics. Sorry, how much Harry Potter fiction has again??
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day - Why when I visit a book store is there only one (two if you are Mormon) books? And with Harry Potter there are 7. Why is it the other books aren’t being sold? That’s 65/72 additional sales the book stores are losing out on.
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Rev Mark D
Hey douglas, do you realize you're just making Pastor George's argument for him?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev Mark D No I don’t. Please explain.
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Rev Mark D
Tell you what, why don't you take a stab at it and I'll tell you if you're hot or cold. About to get you started, it's about whether mere popularity (your point about numbers of books and book sales) book makes for right over what is less popular by that measure?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler,
You would have to ask the bookstores :-)
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Joe Smith
“morally bankrupt children”?! Something is very wrong with you if you describe children this way. Also, you better go read that book of fairy tales again because there most certainly is murder, rape, killing of babies, etc.
Here are a few disgusting examples:
Deuteronomy 28:30 states: 'You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her”
Exodus 21:14: “If, however, a man acts presumptuously toward his neighbor, so as to kill him craftily, you are to take him even from My altar, that he may die.”
Numbers 31:17-18 King James Version: Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves."
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Joe Christians say there is no pornography in the Bible.
Guess they haven’t read it.
ANd don’t forget
Ezekiel 23:20. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
Deuteronomy 23:1-3 1 “If a man’s testicles are crushed or his penis is cut off, he may not be admitted to the assembly of the LORD . 2 “If a person is illegitimate by birth, neither he nor his descendants for ten generations may be admitted to the assembly of the LORD . 3 “No Ammonite or Moabite or any of their descendants for ten generations may be admitted to the assembly of the LORD .
You need to ask the girl if anyone 10 generations before her were illegitimate she would get into heaven. So why is she reading the Bible if she’ll never get into heaven?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler,
What exactly is pornographic in these passages?
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Rev Mark D
Good point George.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
Thank you :-)
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Pastor George Day
Joe Smith,
You take these passages out of context. Deuteronomy needs an exegesis of its own, for that passage is within the context that describes the consequences of choosing evil. God respects your freedom. The other passages must be read in a context of a culture that is soaked in violence, where God is trying to work through the freedom of men.
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Rev Mark D
Hey SOJ, did you notice that Spindler skipped over all the serious points you made about the Bible and instead focused on your obviously intentionally trivial comment about Harry Potter being boring? In debate terms we call that a concession, he is just conceited all of your other points, the really significant ones, because he doesn't know how to answer them and thinks there is no reasonable answer to them, so he moves to the other one to distract attention from the fact that he has no answer for you on those raping of children and etc passages. In other words, he just considered the entire point to you. He is in fact saying "You win, I give."
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Pastor George Day
ServantOfJudgement,
LOL! I agree!!
I can't stand Harry Potter!
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Pastor George Day
Hey Douglas Robert Spindler,
There we go with the rapping again... all down to the afterhours! :-)
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Rev Mark D
Lion, if you called him Reverend Dumbledore I think you'd be let alone just fine, she might not even catch on for a long time, if ever.
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Joe Smith
It’s a total farce. What is actually happening is that these Christian scenarios are being set up in order for these attorneys to be able to claim First Amendment rights and take it all way to the Supreme Court, where they hope to a sympathetic conservative view (and they will). It’s despicable much like the intolerant Christian views.
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Pastor George Day
Hey Lionheart!
Same old song?
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Lionheart
It sure is, Sir George. Some if the old songs are the best though. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart,
Bingo!
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Colleen McAllister
Putting my personal feelings aside - I am an Evangelical Christian - she was wrong to read Scripture during a meeting. While sitting on the Board at an official meeting everything she says reflects on that Board. Her personal feelings and beliefs should not be aired at that time.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
‘Her personal feelings and beliefs should not be aired at that time.’
That’s my position ALL the time. People can believe what they want, but keep it to themselves.
And if the attempt to legislate religious beliefs into the lives of others is stopped I’ll even downgrade my response to remarks about religious beliefs to that or horoscopes and crystal power….try to change the subject so that facts don’t hurt your wittle fweelings.
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Joe Smith
Religious views shouldn’t be “aired” at any time. What the religious refuse to accept is that if one was interested in that hocus pocus, one would ask about it, read about it, seek it out, or whatever. But otherwise, I and others don’t want to hear about it. Unless, of course, you want to hear about my Pastafarian religion.
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Rev Mark D
Sounds like some kind of Italian food.
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Pastor George Day
Joe Smith,
Your 'pastafarianism' is a Newby made up stuff, not even comparable to the heritage of Judeo-Christianity, I'm afraid.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Ahh, so stupidity has to be ancient rather than recent to be acceptable? How about the Mormons then? Or is it because the ancients were ignorant enough to be serious about their nonsense?
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Rev Mark D
Zerp, I missed the Mormon crack you made at the time. You really must try and view a copy of the video by the comedy satire group South Park, for the episode where they hit the Mormons pretty well. It's actually very hilarious as well as historically accurate to a very tight degree as far as the origin is concerned. If you have not heard of it or seen it, believe me you will have a blast.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@Mark I’ve seen the one on Scientology but not sure about the Mormons. I’ll check. South Park is hilarious. @D Gray reminds me of Eric. Gotta’ respect his Au-Thor-a-Tay
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ServantOfJudgement
Colleen, Z and Smith(cool song title)
I hear this kind of thinking quite a bit from a lot of people that have the same problem. They think people are flawless robots that can simply turn off everything that defines them as a person and make decisions this way. This is an impossible feat no human can do. Those that are the most vocal for this desire of others are the biggest offenders. Indeed, my eyes see no end to personal thoughts here, no matter how belligerent they are.
We don't ask fish to stop swimming, horses to stop running and birds to stop flying. We most certainly don't ask humans to drop their humanity though it's been tried.
Every single soul that interacts with another does so according to their personal thoughts and beliefs, there are no exceptions to the rule.
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Catherine
Llines were drawn with much forethought and reasoning regarding public service. The right to free speech does not extend to a public official forcing a captive audience to listen.
Mental health condition? Classic pathological pot stirrer? Obviously did not respect others present. Needs to read her bible and the Constitution for comprehension?
If she does need therapy, here's a start:
https://www.recoveryplace.com/blog/5-signs-you-may-be-addicted-to-religion/
"1) Obsessing about religious activities. 2) Withdrawal symptoms when you don’t engage in religious activity. 3) Feeling like it’s never enough. 4) Jeopardizing your relationships with others. 5) Hyper focus on the future causes you to ignore the present.
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Rev Mark D
Oh, so now it's a religious junkie if you read something that happened to be in the Bible? They swear the president in on the bible. Congress gavel's in and out on the Bible. The Governor of Oklahoma is sworn in on the Bible. Everybody's a religious junkie now huh? What are you, health provider that needs a new diagnosis added to the insurance formula list, so you can get paid some more?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
rest assured if whomever is doing the gaveling choose instead to use a stack of Archie comic books there is nothing to stop them from doing so.
Same with being sworn in, no babble necessary, whatever book the swearee chooses is fine.
I'm thinking about selling toilet paper, on which, on ever sheet are verses from the babble. that way people could read those pearls of wisdom and then wipe their a55 with them and then appropriately, flush them down the toilet. Now THAT is what freedom of speech means
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I’ll buy a few rolls if you have free shipping.
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James A. Ridings
It's "whoever." The word, as used, is a subject of the sentence.
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Rev Mark D
"Whatever."
James: Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Rev Mark D
JJ count me in too!
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
Do you think Rook's self-soothing 'habit' is effective as a public servant? Should she not step down and allow someone else who can better manage the stress?
Rooks described what she was doing as self-help to get her through the stress of the meeting. Apparently often enough she was asked to stop. That indicates - to me - she has a mental health issue.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
It’s akin to those that need bring peacocks and turtles onto airlines as ‘Emotional Support’ animals. My opinion? If you need an emotional support animal to fly then airlines should simply inform you that you need to stay off airlines. You have a mental health issue that could endanger others. Try a taxi, Uber, private car, bicycle, unicycle, horse, or any form of transport that doesn’t inconvenience others.
Oh! Exception! Fly on Emirates in one of those first class ‘private rooms’. Check in early, deplane last, and other I passengers don’t have to deal with your craziness.
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Rev Mark D
No catherine, I read it more closely clearly she is way way way out of line. If she's doing it repeatedly and insisting on it, she is coercing people plus taking the lord's name in vain and all of that, plus she has no right to do so that amounts to a legal right and she's wasting people's time instead of doing her job, and that's a personal failing on her part, should be a personal problem she solves on her own time and not in front of other people, there are serious business to be done and she is stopping that from happening and modeling childish behavior on top of it for any students or kids or anybody else impressionable. We call them personal problems because they're supposed to stay personal you're supposed to keep them in your person not in others' laps.
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Rev Mark D
There's a time for everything, I think he said that too. If you're going to quote God to poeple you can't cherrypick the parts that serve your purpose and ignore the rest. A lie of omission is a lie.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
No. That quote is from Proverbs and has no link whatsoever to the Great Commission.
So, again, uniformed bias!
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
That's not what Yeshua said. Last time I checked Mt 28, he said: go tell the whole world! In fact, even to the Gentile nations!
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Rev Mark D
Pastor George Day, yes he indeed said "go tell the whole world." What he did NOT say is "Go conquer the whole world and through imperial coercion force it down their throats." And even though he might at times lean towards such, his son Jesus, who was known to say on behalf of the entire Trinity "no one comes to the Father but through me," was a big fan of imperial and colonial coercion and force the way most human Christians have built through their entire history.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
What kind of religion do you subscribe to?
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Rev Mark D
George: the kind that doesn't respond to questions intended to have an honest conversation or are really a prejudiced conclusion waiting to pounce. Once I detect that you are a snake then I don't feel in obligation to bother with you because you are not serious. Happy to talk when you're ready to be honest. I didn't find your smart earlier to be anything like honest so I'm guessing you don't want to discuss anything, your questions are really hidden statements.
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Rev Mark D
I think that's not a bad idea, addiction to religion.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
By definition addiction is harmful.
- addiction
- noun
- ad·dic·tion ə-ˈdik-shən a-
- Synonyms of addiction
- 1
- a compulsive, chronic, physiological or psychological need for a habit-forming substance, behavior, or activity having harmful physical, psychological, or social effects and typically causing well-defined symptoms (such as anxiety, irritability, tremors, or nausea) upon withdrawal or abstinence : the state of being addicted
So it appears a lot of people agree with you.
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Rev Mark D
Actually by addiction the scientific scientific terminology does not define it as harmful. You may be working from a particularly narrow definition created by a particular profession which has a certain use to make of it within the bounds of their profession. As a matter of science, addiction happens to be one of the signal models of evolutionary survival design tools worked into a great number of species in the animal kingdom including humans, and not only of bad things and poisons but how to learn to survive and manage it. For example under pure and applied science, food is an addictive substance because we are addicted to it, and if you don't have any food, you die; we modify our learning and our brains to adapt and defunction with it, but we can't do without it, and when we do we show 100% of the signs of addiction through the indicators of dependency and withdrawal, most of which are universal signs and symptoms and indicators that one can read in any medical or psychiatric textbook, but they're not limited to medicine and psychiatry, they are universal. I could get more into the world of such definitions because that's part of my actual license profession of 45 years ie clinical psychology and research, which is a science by the way. The bottom line is that addiction is only a disease when it produces disease, the rest of the time it produces value and life support that is critical, and that value is expected in biological terms, ( nourishment sustenance growth) and mental terms (intelligence, personality modification, adaptation, skills acquisition, language, all the adaptive attributes of mental development and maintenance). Now you may twist and use an artificially narrow aspect of the word addiction for your own particular rhetorical design, whether true or not, whether complete or not, and whether an honest context or not. But that's your problem and honest people having to read your use of the particular words you choose without honestly serving only your stated purpose should not be theirs.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
RMD,
You may twist and use an artificially narrow aspect of the word addiction for your own particular 'professional' design, whether true or not, whether complete or not, and whether an honest context or not but according to that arbiter of common usage respected by most honest people you're wrong.
But I can see you have your opinion and you will bend whatever I say to force your narrow view on others so you will just ignore what the dictionary says anyway. There are obviously FAR more important issues here than just honest discussion.
And your rebuttal only makes your original statement even murkier, Mr. 'Not-A-Christian'. Perhaps you aren't a Christian, but if you think addiction to religion is "not a bad idea", then let me just say "...a Christian by any other name...".
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Rev Mark D
KLES: by "not a bad idea" I meant merely that I thought the idea of being addicted to religion is an interesting and intriguing way to put it, not that I approved of literally being addicted to religion is a good thing, I just thought it was an interesting concept... It takes responsibility away from the person who is "addicted" by placing the power of the addiction outside the persons power. Interesting concept. But I don't absolve this woman of her personal responsibility, she knows what she's doing, she's violating boundaries and the rights of others, I see it as a form of aggression, not helplessness.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
On that she's violating boundaries, we do agree :-) !
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Rev Mark D
Kill yes: if you are only looking for "twisting," then that is all you will see, even when there is none. Good luck finding your way in the dark with your blinders.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Comment removed by user.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
This lengthy explanation makes absolutely no sense.
You may claim all the professional expertise you like, but I happen to be a member of Alcoholics Anonymous. And I can tell you that your smart post above would be laughed at, at an AA meeting!
Now dare criticize AA? It has a 100% success rate!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
It’s the result of the ‘give them an inch’ adage. First, do you swear to tell the truth, so help you god?’ (Go ahead and object to doing that and see how well your trial goes.) Then there’s putting ‘in god we trust’ on money. Throw in the change to the pledge. (Personally I don’t approve Of nationalistic indoctrination children as soon as they hit school. Nationalism is nothing more than gangs writ large.) Of course there’s the use of the bible when swearing in public officials.
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Dang Bru. Catch up with the 21st century.
1) They haven't used "swear to tell the truth, so help you god" in a decade. Now it's "Do you affirm to tell the truth"? 2) Currency doesn't say which God you have to trust. If the currency read in Jesus we trust or in Allah we trust or Buddha we trust then that would be secularism. "God" is generic. You can pick what God you want to trust in. 3) The Supreme Court ruled on that a decade ago. They don't use the Bible exclusively anymore to swear in witnesses. You can be sworn in on the Quran, the Bible, or whatever text you consider your holy book. The only restriction is the USSC says they court doesn't have to provide the book. If you want to be sworn in on the Wiccan text, for example, then you have to bring it with you to court.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I think it’s ‘Bruh’, man.
I expatriated from the US over 30 years ago, however…
I am aware that on the federal level the switch from swear to affirm was made. But there are still Google says there are still instances of ‘So help me god’ oaths of office. I’d bet there are still State courts that still use ‘so help you god’.
No, it doesn’t say which god on the currency but it DOES mention ol’ Mr. Magic, doesn’t it. And it doesn’t matter because, to paraphrase Stevie Wonder, ‘When you believe in things that you don’t understand it’s delusion’.
Yes, you can use any book you want but as you say (which I don’t necessarily attribute accuracy to) it’s ‘whatever text you consider your holy book.’ I ain’t got none of dem kinda’ books!
Regardless, it’s STILL a case of giving the religious people an inch they’ll take a mile. A while back, less than the 30 years I’ve lived as an expat, I read there are still laws on the books that prohibit atheists from holding public office. Almost certainly not enforced but there are certainly those that would make the effort if they could do so.
I’ve stopped tolerating the delusions of religious individuals in almost any case whatsoever. Those that believe in horoscopes, crystal power, speaking in alien tongues (Netflix ‘Encounters’) or the like are still often delusional but they aren’t attempting to legislate their beliefs into the lives of others. I have it upon the highest authority (my wife, you know how that goes) that one’s religious beliefs are never discussed by politicians here in Japan. Just not done. I can see that reflected in my own experiences here. People just don’t talk about religion. Well, the xtians still ring doorbells but they’re a different sort and since they comprise only about 5% of the population the doorbell doesn’t ring that much. And there’s one extremist Buddhist oriented group, but I just shoo them away.
But my point is that when xtians cease trying to impose their silly Bronze Age superstitions on others, remove all reference to their hokum from the government, THEN I’ll lump them as ‘Basically harmless’ along with those into crystals and horoscopes.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande,
Are you based in Japan?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Based? You mean military? Nope, we won’t go there.
Second sentence in my post, ‘I expatriated..’
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande,
I thought you said you live in Japan. Sorry.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I do live here. But not ‘based’ as in military. I expatriated from the US in 1991/92, I forget which. I love my home state of NC but living in the bible belt and teaching chemistry/physics put me in situations of conflict. I had some aunts and uncles where I had to bite my tongue at their religious and racist comments. Kept the peace for my parents and grandfather. But when the opportunity to leave presented itself….
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande,
I get it... :-) !!
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Amber Fry
Um... no... she has every right to believe and pray as she likes but she does not have the right to disrupt meetings and force it on everyone else. Her rights begin and end with her in her own space.When will people learn to respect each other??
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Robert A Stiff
So called "christians" are the first (and loudest) when they scream that gays, African-Americans, Jews and other historical minorities are "shoving their beliefs in our face" when, in reality, that is christianity's first go-to objection. "I have a right to disregard the Bill of Rights because god is on my side. I will pray when and wherever I want." Believe and pray to whatever you wish..just don't shove your beliefs in MY face.
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Rev. Rory
Here is the problem. Public school officials feel empowered to impose THEIR beliefs on everyone, whatever they might be. It's fine to make a religious reference. Yes, that is free speech. But to include detailed readings from a holy book during every single meeting is not a religious reference. It is a sermon.
The article link below, seemingly straight from the movie 'Footloose', shows how this can be harmful. This particular, recent example takes place in Louisiana. I don't think the principal should be allowed to "take a leave" for the rest of the year. I think he should be fired.
https://apnews.com/article/lousiana-student-punished-for-dancing-82e706e9f63828fac685f65514362626
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Rev Mark D
Rev Rory: boy you sure are correct about the school districts and the schools imposing and their beliefs. True Dat!
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Rev Mark D
Franklin Graham is the biggest prostitute in the world by the way, no one seems to have noticed what he's doing in the piece but that's what he is and that's what he always has been just like his dad. Billy Graham once got caught and was asked by the Kennedys "how can you live knowing that you don't believe any of this and you're a total fraud?" and grahams response was "yeah I know, but it's too late to stop now."
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
What's your source to back this claim?
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Catherine
Clarification: " The right to free speech does not extend to a public official forcing a captive audience to listen" ... to what does not directly pertain to the business at hand."
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Rev Mark D
Exactly the point I've been trying to make but you made it much better Catherine
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Daniel Gray
SO who is forcing them to listen, they are free to leave anytime they want.
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Catherine
Rooks. Troll elsewhere.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
That complete nonsense.
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Najah P Tamargo
Minister Najah Tamargo USA
If she was teaching in a parochial school, that would be one thing. But in a public school system....NOPE!! Unless she is planning on giving equal time to ALL other religious teachings and quoting from their text????
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Not even if she was giving equal time to all other religions. Never had my kids in American public school systems but wouldn’t want any nonsense being presented.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
As long as religion is allowed to be a potent force in human society, it will ALWAYS try to force its nonsensical views onto the population! It’s just another form of oppression and dictatorship! Grow up humanity and realize the evil of ALL religions is what drives nations to fight (most) wars! That’s what’s happening between the Jews in Israel and the Muslim Hamas in Gaza!
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Rev Mark D
Hey Olive I don't think you can equate the Jews with Hamas... But you imply with the word "between." I'm willing to put it down to a not very careful choice of words on your part.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
D Change “between” to “with” or any other word of your choice if you don’t understand what the point is!
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Rev Mark D
I think you're trying to say that the difference, from each respective side, between Hamas and Jews is about religion. That was your point was it not? Otherwise why would it fit anywhere here? So that's what I took you to mean.
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Anita Pagan
According to the article, she was quoting bible verses during the comments section of board meetings. This is not personal time, this is time that belongs to all the board and those present. And not everyone is xtian. Having been xtian myself, preaching at all times is encouraged, with the reminder that one will be hated. This is a feather in their cap. And its one of the ways xtianity is forced into our public spaces and onto those who don't want to hear it. So from that perspective the feeling of "sit down and shut up" is understandable. Especially when that's exactly what xtians expect from those of other faiths: a respect for their sharing. Yet they get up and walk out during the prayers of other faiths. This is not a matter of tit-for-tat, its a matter of respecting proper boundaries. There is a time and place for everything. You wouldn't go to a board meeting in your underclothes. You wouldn't be brushing your teeth or flossing in a board meeting. No one needs to be forced to experience your personal private choice in undies or hygiene habits. Likewise our relationship with the Greater Power is personal and private. Luke 18:10- There is no need to beat your chest because you're xtian. One's relationship with the Creator is not a competition.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Perfectly said Anita.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but she does have the right to keep doing this. If you take it too the extreme then if someone sneezes you cant say Gesundheit (German for Bless you) or even say Bless you as both of these are considered as prayers. And there are probably thousands more like
Forbidden Fruit. ... Fall from Grace. ... By the Sweat of Your Brow Ashes to Ashes, Dust to Dust. ... My Brother's Keeper. ... As Old as Methuselah. ... Fire & Brimstone. ... Land of Milk & Honey. An Eye for an Eye, a Tooth for a Tooth Manna from Heaven Man Does Not Live on Bread Alone Scapegoat A Man after my own heart How the Mighty Have Fallen Feet of clay putting words into my mouth the writing is on the wall Skin and bones by the skin of my teeth weighed in the balance at wits end spare the rod spoil the child bite the dust pride goes before the fall there is nothing new under the sun for everything there is a season eat drink and be merry fly in the ointment a drop in the bucket no rest for the wicked a lamb to the slaughter head on a platter baptism of fire go the extra mile casting pearls before swine wolves in sheeps clothing the blind leading the blind a house divided cannot stand to move mountains the 11th hour kiss of death wash ones hands of the matter good samaritan throw the first stone better to give then to receive the love of money is the root of all evil armageddon
Which means we cant use any of the above phrases as ALL of them are quoted from the bible/
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Then Pagan, Wiccan, Satanic and all non Christian teachers can say a prayer and say their scriptures the same
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Rev Mark D
They can? Well that's mighty Christian of them.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but she wasnt saying a prayer. Now if you mean the others mentioned can quote from their holy books then yes they can
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Actually ‘Gesundheit’ means good health. ‘Bless you’ brings to stupidity of religious belief into play because it was Thought that when you sneeze your soul leaves your body and by saying “bless you” the devil away until your soul could get back in your body. Really freaking intelligent, huh? So the German example isn’t a prayer and the second example is just stupid.
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Rev Mark D
Zerp: pretty funny stuff, man. Zeit gesund!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I visit this site for the sh*ts and giggles of catch and release.
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Daniel Gray
Actually it means bless you. I see that you cant speak or understand german
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Catherine
https://www.etymonline.com/word/gesundheit
1914, from German Gesundheit, literally "health!", from Old High German gisunt, gisunti "healthy" (see sound (adj.)).
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
'Gesundheit' as used in the German language was the point of contention. Not the origins of 'bless' or 'blessing'.
No matter how you spin it, 'gesundheit' has never meant 'blessing'.
Thank you for the further confirmation.
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Daniel Gray
Yea it is since she forgot to read her own source https://www.etymonline.com/word/gesundheit which clearly says it means a blessing
"bless (v.)
Middle English blessen, from Old English bletsian, bledsian, Northumbrian bloedsian "to consecrate by a religious rite, make holy, give thanks," from Proto-Germanic *blodison "hallow with blood, mark with blood," from *blotham "blood" (see blood (n.)). Originally a blood sprinkling on pagan altars.
This word was chosen in Old English bibles to translate Latin benedicere and Greek eulogein, both of which have a ground sense of "to speak well of, to praise," but were used in Scripture to translate Hebrew brk "to bend (the knee), worship, praise, invoke blessings." L.R. Palmer ("The Latin Language") writes, "There is nothing surprising in the semantic development of a word denoting originally a special ritual act into the more generalized meanings to 'sacrifice,' 'worship,' 'bless,' " and he compares Latin immolare (see immolate).
The meaning shifted in late Old English toward "pronounce or make happy, prosperous, or fortunate" by resemblance to unrelated bliss. The meaning "invoke or pronounce God's blessing upon" is from early 14c. No cognates in other languages.
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Rev Mark D
Boy daniel, given your intent, and your factual problems, you are going to have some interesting explaining to do when you meet your maker.
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Daniel Gray
No explaining will be required. When I meet my maker he will be pleased that I was able to wipe your point with facts and links. Too bad you are not going to be able to claim the same
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Michael Hunt
Per the link you provided DG, "1914, from German Gesundheit, literally "health!", from Old High German gisunt, gisunti "healthy" (see sound (adj.)). Also in the German toast auf ihre Gesundheit "to your health.""
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Rev Mark D
I had 3 years of high school German from a lousy teacher and myself having attention deficits, which is to say maybe the value of a first year...so to all you with full fluency, please how does one say "Enough! You're all up sh** creek!" in German? Hoch Deutsch please for convenience.
Thanks most kindly.
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Michael Hunt
No, it does not mean "bless you." Dr. Z is correct. "Gesundheit was borrowed from German, where it literally means 'health'; it was formed by a combination of gesund ("healthy") and -heit ("-hood"). " https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gesundheit
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Ahh, saved me some time, Michael. DG jumps to all kinds of conclusions. His tendency to state the false and/or unsupported for fact often gets him into trouble. I surprised that he didn’t throw that I have no German ancestry and have never been to Germany.
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Daniel Gray
Um sorry yes it does mean bless you. Dr Z and Michael?
Tut mir leid, Kind, aber die Tatsache bleibt bestehen, wenn du kein Deutsch sprichst, wie soll dann irgendjemand einen Grund haben, zu glauben, was du behauptest?
Now since neither of you know German, either high German or low German, explain yourself after reading this...But I wont wait for you as neither of you can Speak German let alone read German.
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Michael Hunt
Sie gehen davon aus, dass ich kein Deutsch spreche, aber überraschenderweise tue ich es!
Du kannst es einfach nicht ertragen, falsch zu liegen.
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Daniel Gray
really, how nice of you to use the translator that you can find on google.
So tell us then where did this come from High German or low german. Want to bet that you cant.
Schön, dass Sie den Google-Übersetzer verwenden, aber Ihre Syntax ist so schlecht, dass Sie, wenn Sie das in Deutschland versucht hätten, sofort ausgelacht würden
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Michael Hunt
Well thankfully Germans are nicer than you because no one laughed at my poor German while visiting Germany.
It doesn't matter how good your German is, you're still wrong about the meaning of Gesundheit.
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Daniel Gray
Nein, Sie sprechen kein Deutsch, Sie verwenden das Google-Übersetzerprogramm, wie dies deutlich zeigt. Und Sie haben immer noch nicht gesagt, ob das Hochdeutsch oder Plattdeutsch war
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
How about explaining how you came to the conclusion that MH’s German is from a translator.
Goggle Translate results in equally comprehensible translations for the both of you. Nothing stilted at all for either of you. Why the claim that MH’s use of Translate is obvious?
And as MHunt pointed out ‘ It doesn't matter how good your German is, you're still wrong about the meaning of Gesundheit.’
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Rev Mark D
I had 3 years of high school German from a lousy teacher and myself having attention deficits, which is to say maybe the value of a first year...so to all you with full fluency, please how does one say "Enough! You're all up sh** creek!" in German? Hoch Deutsch please for convenience.
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Daniel Gray
Genug! Ihr seid alle am Arsch! Which is where you are right now
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Daniel Gray
maybe but they cannot capture the proper phrasing and syntax of the language. If he or you actually knew how to speak German you would know this.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Heather Rooks was doing the exact same thing you are doing - being ridiculous.
Yes, DG, our society has Christian roots and those are all common saying. However, not everybody who says them is proselytizing - which she absolutely IS - openly admitted to when she made a point of "Bringing God to school".
You've made a point numerous times that there are things you don't want "Shoved down your throat". (Yes, that Dan Bongino Fox News nugget never gets old, does it.) Surely you give the same right to everyone else - within REASON. .
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Daniel Gray
Ok Kenny since when is quoting from a holy book now suddenly illegal
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That's misdirection.
Nobody is complaining about "quoting from a holy book" per se - but delivering regular disruptive sermons is counter-productive.
It's just common sense.
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Daniel Gray
no sorry its not. and since when is quoting from a book now suddenly a sermon
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Rev Mark D
Daniel, do you think God doesn't know what you're doing, with your intent to distort and mislead, your hubris and "I must win at the tiniest things no matter what" fooling around? That you won't have to account for the sins you are committing right here in the string because you are committing them voluntarily, not out of helplessness or human weakness, but simply out of hostility and self-indulgence, in the process trivializing your lord and the way you use him and his name? Do you think he doesn't know, do you think he is not aware of how you were serving yourself at his expense? Do you really think this is what he wants from you, when you clearly know better?
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Daniel Gray
Nope He does and I am having no difficulty in quoting from the supreme law of the land. You should try it sometimes, but if you did it would prevent you from posting your nonsense here.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
Many, if not all, of the phrases you say are stated in a bible did not originate there. If you think so, prove that please. Definitively, without slippery cherry picking. Because, God is omniscient and ubiquitous, and unlikely to be anachronistic yes? Were God's words then limited to authors' understandings and ability to communicate?
Heather Rooks quoting Joshua 1:9, was not merely an apt turn of words. If she read the bible so often as to annoy people into asking her to stop, maybe she has a form of Tourettes?
Perhaps before public service meetings, Rooks should privately chant 1 Peter 5:7, NIV until it helps: "In-Context...Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but everyone of the ones I quoted have a basis in the bible.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
Me: Does not.
You: Does too.
Repeat ad nauseam.
Thank you for this immensely enlightening conversation, Mr. Troll. The pleasure was all yours.
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Daniel Gray
No the pleasure is all yours considering that you have yet to prove me wrong.
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Daniel Gray
Comment has been removed.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
Do we really have to relate to each other this way? Does name calling make you feel better?
In all honesty, even if you had a point, your inability to disagree with respect says it all!
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Catherine
@Pastor George Day
When Daniel Gray trolls you, I promise not to say "I told you so".
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
Does the article say she was reading the Bible? I thought she was only quoting memorized passages to herself. Have I missed that?
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Catherine
Correction: Quoting from the bible. Not much difference given she, as a public official, more than once disrupted a public meeting.
If Rooks' quotes had been brief and she did it less often, perhaps no issue would have been made of it.
If she was so stressed she was struggling with participating in those meetings, again I suggest: Rooks privately chant 1 Peter 5:7, NIV until it helps: "In-Context...Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you"... until it puts her in a safe place where she can publicly participate at the same level other members are expected to.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
You do have a point there.
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Michael Hunt
No, she was using the "board comments" section of a public meeting to recite scripture to the audience. No one would have an issue with her privately saying these things to herself, it's that she's using her position as a public official to quote scripture in a public meeting.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Daniel Gray Why do you say she have a right to do this? Where is it written she can break the law?
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Daniel Gray
what law?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
What laws? Come on are you that daft? The laws of our country which govern public officials. This crime carries with it a 3 year jail sentence if convicted.
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Daniel Gray
Oh really and I guess you missed the Newdow decision from the US Supreme Court that said as long as it does not mention any specific God or deity, then its legal and constitutional. Or are you just parroting the discredited line from the FFRF, a group that has been slapped and overturned by the courts more times then swiss cheese has holes.
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Pastor George Day
Daniel Gray,
You really made an excellent point!
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Tareq Asfour
well, that’s not right everybody should have religious freedom if the LGBTQ is allowed to teach it in schools, biblical studies should be taught also…
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
LGBTQ is not a religion.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Mike Eggleston,
Not true! LGBT lifestyle is a philosophy of life ( = religion).
Because of the controversial topic it is by its very nature, it functions as a religion. They have celebrations, feast dates and flags, as well as a political outreach and a pastoral program.
I suggest you get an education in these matters.
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Michael Hunt
Religion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman power or powers, especially a God or gods. I fail to see how being LGBTQ+ has anything to do with belief or worship in superhuman power. If being queer is a lifestyle, then so is being straight, and I don't see anyone seriously trying to make such a ridiculous claim.
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Pastor George Day
Michael Hunt,
Surely you are intelligent enough to get the point. I am what you call LGBT, but my values as a Christian conflict with what the LGBT community upholds. They have values, and that means they behave like a religion, or philosophy of life. It doesn't matter what you call it... they are organized, with symbols, celebrations, [YES] belief systems (heard of MCC or Dignity??) and guess what, even a flag!
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Paul
LGBT+ is not a religion is it.
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ServantOfJudgement
Paul,
It shure as heck is! It identically matches a religious mass movement. Don't dare disagree with it, not for a second.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There it is. Thanks again SOJ for saying the quiet part out loud.
Are you the victim here? It's funny because on the one hand you say a religion can't be questioned - and we all know how religious you are - but at the same time you compare the LGBTQ to a religion. Which is it??
But just to be square - the LGBTQ+ are a REAL thing. Religion is a BELIEF.
It seems you think the LGBTQ are a belief - and that's wrong. I could show you numerous scientific sources that say so - but of course you think science is just a belief too, so there's not much point is showing you anything, I've learned.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Not true! LGBT lifestyle is a philosophy of life ( = religion).
Because of the controversial topic it is by its very nature, it functions as a religion. They have celebrations, feast dates and flags, as well as a political outreach and a pastoral program.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
PGD,
One of the faithful I see. But where could you have gotten that idea? Didn't have to look far - it's all over right-wing media.
https://noqreport.com/2017/06/16/five-examples-lgbtq-activism-religion/
You know it's bad enough when people get their science from right-wing media - but to get your religion there too? Well - your idea of what is religious, anyway.
Here, try some truth:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X22002202
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/
https://cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/
https://www.hourly.io/post/gender-diversity
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Interesting stuff.
I think the last link was shared here in the monastery before, right?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Numerous times, and the conservative anti-intellectual hatchet of "No it isn't!" continues to be thrown up as a shield to deny and ignore it.
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Catherine
@Pastor George Day
Says you, other bigots, and closet LGBTs.
Here's a thought. Someone you care about, possibly someone close to you, is LGBorT. Yet you may never know how much pain you've caused them. Someone you care about can't be honest around people like you.
LGBT don't need your approval, forgiveness, pity, or anything other than what your God says applies to all his creations.
Do you think God or nature makes mistakes?
Does God give anyone the right to judge on his behalf? And please spare what men wrote in God's name in the Bible.
Talk about taking God's name in vain... the bible is full of such instances. An almighty, loving, forgiving, benevolent, all knowing God has no reason to persecute anyone for any reason.
Ironically, it's becoming clearer by the day that more people who do not believe in your God, better understand your God's intent.
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Catherine
@@Pastor George Day
Then I sincerely suggest you learn to love and appreciate yourself more than you seem to.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
I think in my 48-year journey I just need you to teach me how to love myself! LOL
Thank you, anyway, for the kind thought :-)!
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
How interesting the length, you take to voice your unfounded assumptions about others!
Had you read more of my shares, you would know what I mean.
I AM LGB and T!!!
I am a man with same-sex attraction (biologically male) and gender dysphoria (her name is Denise).
I have done so much more precious work on myself and come to common ground with Scripture about how I experience these two conditions, making sense of that on my walk with God, than any cheap debate with you is mere waste of breath.
Here's my website, which is better time spent than explaining things to your undisposed brain.
https://theologyofthebody.webador.co.uk/same-sex-attraction
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
"Don't dare disagree with it, not for a second." Really?
Are you going to lay down the rules so the rest of us know what we can say in ULC discussions?
Since this discussion has pretty much derailed, why isn't not being heterosexual God's will?
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Rev Mark D
Well Catherine, since no one seems to be answering your question, I'll take a stab:
Ans: It's not. Now since that makes three negatives, getting confusing...not being heterosexual can't not be God's will. Meaning not being heterosexual is just as much God's will as anything else.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
God had a direct will and a permissive will. His direct will for human sexuality is heterosexual standards. LGBT is his permissive will.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I've n ever heard of that before.
Tell me more about 'Direct' versus 'permissive' will PGD - I am very curious.
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sandersonl,
It's very simple. Sometimes God permits something bad because there is a higher good ahead of it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
And would that ''good' be an eternal lake of hellfire torture? Is this a holy 'give them enough rope' moment?
Some people need to just learn to let mystery be mystery.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
the level of ignorance of the cristo-fascist regime is unbearable and proof positive that religion is harmful, especially to the dimwitted
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Rev Mark D
JJ one of the best books ever written, by Christopher Hitchens, and I'll bet I don't need to mention the title.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. Dr. Father JJ,
What a diverse church we are... even more exciting than the Anglican Communion!
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Rev Mark D
Tareq, you are right and usually you start out making sense, so please don't blow it.
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Nicholas J Page
As a universal life church minister I don't go round and preach passages from the Bible nor should anyone.Regardless of their church or beliefs.If you quote from the Bible then you may as well quote from other religious books . Which some people may find offensive.Dont bring your views into the public work place.Leave your thoughts at home.
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Pastor George Day
Nicholas J Page,
That is not true. As ULC ministers we do subscribe to a specific set of beliefs. ULC leaves us freedom in that. It's like the Church of England. You can choose whether to be evangelical conservative, evangelical charismatic, liberal, Anglo-Catholic or LGBT. Just join the right church. If you end up at HTB (evangelical charismatic), you will have a real hard time as an LGBT. If you are charismatic, you will find the LGBT and liberal church of St Ann's in Soho very hard to suit your tastes. We ULC ministers are the same: join the right minister that suits your needs.
Here's my website https://theologyofthebody.webador.co.uk/
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Dr Asha Sharma
Religious believes are personal families traditions. We as one specie Human highest level of intelligence should understand that we chose to follow teachings of our forefathers. And the learned understand that their is One Almighty Omnipresent One who created this universe and has given us the knowledge of harmony coexistence yet we choose conflicts and confusion which makes us side by side with the lower animals. Schools are circular in knowledge and the holy books are religious knowledge. Peace be with us all
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
you have that exactly wrong. religion is circular because it proves itself true by saying it is true. when asked how to prove god exists the answer is usally, because the bible says so. and how do you know the bible is true? because it's the word of god and god says so. do you see the circularity here?
science and education whatever the subject is built upon previous discoveries, methodologies, results and proveability. it builds UPON itself, in a linear fashion (more or less) where religion is just another example of a snake swallowing its tail
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Theresa C. Marquess
Agree or not to agree, every time someone takes a stand against someone who made a remark, whether proselytizing or not, we are taking their freedom and giving up a portion of our own...let's start thinking, people!!!
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Rev Mark D
A couple people have mentioned mentioned that she's using this as a self-soothing and I admit I missed that detail. No, she should not be serving her own needs while she's at the podium, and that's a boundary problem. You mean she needs some help with whatever stress she's dealing with, so that she can do her job, and that should be her responsibility to do, not dumped on somebody else while she does it. It's a personal matter and she should keep it personal, and that means if she has to excuse herself and walk away for a while take a walk, or step into somewhere quiet, then she should ask the chair to allow her to do it and then take her leave until she can come back. Other things she should be doing is preparing for whatever the meeting is going to bring her, so that she does not have to stop everything with everybody there so she can meet her on personal needs at their expense and disrupt and interrupt what should be business. When you can't handle things on camera, you're supposed to step away from the camera. That's maturity and that's professionalism and that's what's required so she should require it of herself just like any other adult.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
How would you react if instead she had been chanting an LGBT spiritual mantra?
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Rev Mark D
George, old buddy, I'd react exactly the same, of course . Why do you ask?
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
Just curious :-)
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Rev. MichaelRS
Personally despite my faith this is not necessarily something I would do in this context.
HOWEVER, until Christmas day is no longer a holiday for government workers at any level AND when the House of Representatives eliminates the chaplain position and stops opening sessions with a prayer, the board and everyone else that doesn't like this woman doing that can go pound sand.
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Catherine
@Rev. MichaelRS
Tolerance does not equal 'must allow'. Tolerance varies with environments.
How does someone quoting the bible for personal comfort facilitate a public service meeting? If Rooks was so discomfited, why not seek professional help instead of unloading her discomfort on participants during a public meeting?
What if first responder briefs and roll calls allowed a stressed colleague to quote the bible until they were less uncomfortable? How would their work be affected when emergencies arise?
How much time would that colleague be permitted to indulge that need, and how often?
Would multiple faiths be tolerated in such a circumstance?
Would that individual be directed toward mental health therapy, or possibly another job or line of work altogether?
A couple extreme scenarios to see how this could play out:
"Wait! I'm stressed. I must read this passage aloud to calm myself... a little more... almost done... there. Now we can proceed.!" 911 call put on indefinite hold. Citizen or officer is killed. Patient is beyond reviving after a heart attack. Production server crashes and thousands people can't work or receive a paycheck. A zero fault tolerance nuclear power employee freaks under pressure and needs to read their bible to get back to business...
How about less extreme circumstances? When you get nitpicky with a cashier then they read the bible out loud to you so they can calm themselves... oh oh oh... would you wait? Go elsewhere?
Functionality is key. MUTUAL respect is key. Tolerance - not absolutism - is key.
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Robert A Stiff
Bravo. Excellent comment.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
I like and respect your thinking Catherine
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
You make your point across quite well, and I too respect you for that.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I’ll go along with Christmas not being a national holiday. Wholeheartedly so.
BTW, my family celebrates Xmas every year here innJapan. . I have had people drive a 2 hr one-way trip just to see the Xmas lights on my house. The lights were a tradition in my family trowing up in the States. We have a Christmas dinner every year and my wife uses recipes she got from my mother. We have a huge tree with presents and we open them one by one over the course of a couple of hours. Santa was especially generous when my children were young.
And we have never said a prayer at dinner. The story of Jesus has been mentioned only as the myth behind the yearly event. Neither of the weddings of my kids had any religious aspects whatsoever. My kids never went to school on Xmas day. I never worked on Xmas day.
I don’t need a national holiday to have a celebration that remembers my family and brings all the current members together to enjoy some time together. And we definitely don’t fee the need to incorporate the superstitions of ignorant, Bronze Age nomadic goat herders.
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Catherine
@Dr. Zerpersande
Some of those goat herders were astronomers. Just saying ^ . ^
I don't do holidays at all because most mask intent other than that we're conditioned to practice.
It's hard to appreciate the insane level of consumerism that divides as much as it brings people together. Spirituality and materialism are like oil and water.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Comment removed by user.
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Pastor George Day
Catherine Colvin,
The so-called magi were astrologers, you are right, and they were likely more than three. However, they were not ill intentioned. They had received the prophecy from Daniel, and they followed the star that represented the kabod - the glory of the presence (the Shekinah). In fact, it wasn't a star at all. They called it that way because that was the language they were used to. Stars don't hover over a house. The Shekina does :-)
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There are numerous theories about the identity of the three Magi:
https://assisi-institute.org/gospel-truth-and-yoganandas-wisdom-56/
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Pastor George Day
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson,
Thanks for the link.
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Rev Mark D
Zerp, you have an enjoyable way with words. Just thought I'd mention, they make sense but they're also quite amusing.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Well, thank you. That’s the way I taught science. It’s been found that when people are having fun and being amused that they learn more.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande,
If you don't believe in the incarnation of Christ, why do you celebrate the holiday then?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Although I have no memory of ever believing in the existence of god, I did believe in Santa for a while. After all, the the presents had to come from somewhere and I never saw diddly from the god thing.
So why to do it?. Memories of my childhood. Putting up the tree. Decorating a huge cedar tree in our front yard with my dad that, when finished, actually had cars stopping on the interstate a couple hundred yards from out house. Parades. Christmas morning with gifts from Santa. Family dinners as everyone was older with gifts for others. And the cherry on top? It teaches kids to remember that just because someone says something is true it ain’t necessarily true.
Myself, I was asked to ‘say the blessing’ at the Christmas dinner that all my mother’s siblings and my cousins came to. Almost 50 people in total. They loved my blessings. And they never noticed that I never said ‘god’ or ‘Jesus’ even once.
My son-in-laws really enjoyed our xmas dinners. It’s family. I believe in family. But ask them if it seems religious and they’ll absolutely say ‘No’. Oh! I have dressed up as Santa for my local kindergarten for the past 15 years or so. And I seriously doubt that there is a single xtian family represented there.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande,
You are not far from the Kingdom of God :-)
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Rev Mark D
I do too, though my wife and I are not, Christmas is the only holiday, and only season that people go out of their way to be kind and generous to everyone, seemingly they can't help it I guess, the way it should be year 'round. Plus with seven Methodist pastors and a couple missionaries in her family there is that same habit/memories tradition Zerp talks about.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
... and a husband as a free-lance pastor as well LOL!
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Rev Mark D
"nothing new under the Sun" and "A house divided against itself cannot stand" are in the Bible. So what's the problem?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You’re talking with the religiously delusional. THERE’S your problem.
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Rev Mark D
So Congress can have a preacher make statements and read from the bible, but not the local school district huh? Sounds like a bunch of goofs, only they called themselves enlightened educators. I happen to know from living in Oklahoma that the governor is sworn in on a bible. But that's not good enough for the locals huh?
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Catherine
@Rev Mark D
Apples and oranges. Where is direct correlation between your comments and what Rooks did?
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Pastor George Day
Well asked, Catherine Colvin! :-)
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
You ought to know better than me that the USA was founded by the Pilgrim Fathers!
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Rev Mark D
No George, the Plymouth Colony is what the Pilgrims founded. That's all they founded. Please do not take my word for it though, that way when you do discover the truth you will have the ego strength and emotional honesty and the religious honesty to admit it, since you lack it here.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
I accept your answer.
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Rev Mark D
I think the lady next time should open up with some passages out of Song of Solomon. Now there's something to get cranky about but I doubt if any of the liberals would protest.
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jpmcdunn
I don't think the school board has a case. She didn't ask anyone to believe in God. It is bno different than saying "A Word to the wise is sufficient". It lis practically like saying "Just like it says in the Bible......"
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Rev Mark D
No what she's doing is abusing Christian text as a weaponizing of just wasting people's time, it's a pure manner of passive-aggressive coercion against others, it just happens to be a famous language convenience, instead of saying I believe in Santa Claus, which would have amounted to the same thing, exactly the same thing. It's not free speech, she's not using it as free speech, she's using it as a personal abuse of other people's time and attention, which is not illegal but it certainly isn't a civil right that is violated if taken away from her, it's just simply removing personal abuse of people. My guess is the highest it goes, she loses.
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Michael Sciulli
From minster mike the world changing don’t be upset with this read bible and book revelation this tells what is happing today . God bless.
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Lionheart
How much of the Bible do you think is correct, Sir Michael?
🦁❤️
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Rev Mark D
Lionheart, do you mean how much of the Bible is correct as fact (truth) or as myth? As fact, the Bible is completely (except for a few small historical and archaeological details) for the most part completely unverifiable. As myth, well it is as valid as any other fairy story. I know you were asking michael, but since facts matter, I feel justified in answering your question as well.
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Pastor George Day
Rev Mark D,
This is utterly delusional. All biblical stories and characters have been verified as historic.
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Rev Mark D
Hi George, what are you smoking and where can I get some?
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Dennis Chevalier
Please children take your hatred outside and let the grown-ups be!
Rev. Dr. D. , Ph.D
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Minister for the Kingdom
Krebbs, we know there will be wars and rumors of wars. I think that the pamphlet's that were issued before the invasion should be followed. I know no one wants to leave their homes, but the coming war was approaching and nobody can run in the path of a bomb. Is there space available near the border? Can the people find safety there? Can we have a neutral place? So people can be helped. These are the questions i would like answered.
Minister: Ralph Krebbs
If she's really just trying to motivate herself, give herself a pep talk, she can do it silently. But instead, so many like her are determined to force their religion onto everyone even if they themselves can't follow it. Jesus said to not be like the hypocrites who have pray in public, but to do so in private. Of course, he also said a lot of other things they can't seem to follow.
As for the First Amendment, it also states that the government can't show preference to any one religion. So either she needs to cut the act or someone else there needs to start quoting from the Quran, or the Church of Satan, or some other belief system.
Saying things out loud has a different impact on our mind than thinking them. Saying things out loud reinforces knowledge. It sounds like this lady was saying these things for herself, not anyone else. If she was saying them for herself and nobody else, she's good to go. If she's saying them for everyone else, that's different. I wouldn't want to be Schooled on someone else's philosophical outlook I didn't agree with.
you're just justifying her actions according to what you think will fly as an excuse. in effect she was proselytizing, as a board member and at a public meeting. she is pushing her cristo-fascist agenda as do so many these days.
her right to free speech ends when she was elected to the board. full stop. anyone (here or there) that says she is not proselytizing or that she's doing it to fortify herself mentally is an idiot and assumes the rest of us are even more idiotic.
Rev. Dr. Father JJ,
Are you a reverend?? You truly don't sound like one! Sorry, if I may...
@ ServantOfJudgement Like so many Christians you are twisting the fact and trying to justify what this women’s actions. Why don’t you just admit what the women was doing with wrong and should not have been done? This is why people don’t like or trust Christians, they lie.
Come on man, I said if she was preaching it then it's not the way to go. Did she say it through the mic or to herself? That means everything.
When I'm at work and dealing with the special dumb only managers can pull off I say quietly to myself "Oh God give me the strength" or maybe a paraphrased Bible verse. I don't think anyone hears me but they might. That's all I'm saying. If someone heard me do that and told me to stop I'd tell them to blow.
Ever deal with a boss so dumb you need God's intervention? It's a real number.
@ ServantOfJudgement No I have never dealt with a boss so dumb I’ve needed God’s intervention. And as a Christian what a horrible thing to say about one of God’s children or for that matter anyone.
How is God made you so smart, but you’re dumb enough you are not a manager. God sure must not like you. Have you ever thought your religion and belief in God is holding you back?
Douglas,
Picky picky picky.
I was a manager for long long time. If I wanted to be a manager I could be one in 35 minutes from when I drop this post. I want to work with people now, hands on and teach up coming engineers.
Everyone is ignorant in areas and everyone is brilliant in areas. Some people are highly educated but lack in practicality. Some have no education but shine with a gift. Some wilfully ignore advice of team members and some rely on it. Brilliant people can do dumb things, as we all can and do. That's you, me, my boss and his boss.
Im not so politically correct to curb powerful language and render it to meaningless watered down nothingness. I know that's the flavor of the day but it tastes like rotten milk and vinegar to me. I wind up in HR from time to time, that's usually a good show for everyone.
God has blessed me more than I could ever know and I have been liberated by him, leaving jesus would be dumb, the dumbest thing I've ever done and I've done some mighty dumb things.
So we're square, a child of God is a believer in God that trusts in Jesus the Christ, according to the bible. If that doesn't fit a person's philosophy, they're not a child of God according to the bible. If people don't want to be a child of God they don't have to be, no big deal.
SOJ, never mind, he's just having a bad day and needs something to rank on.
@ Rev Mark D. Having a bad hair day as a Christian? Can say anything nice? Typical Christian spreading hate.
Oh and by the way douglas, equating "Can't say anything nice" to hate speech is a possible sign of a borderline personality disorder with hysteriical and dramatic features. I suggest you consult with your psychiatric second therapist for review so that it doesn't tend to cause problems for you in various aspects of your life.
I'm not a Christian Douglas. And you don't have any right to call me one, thus demonstrating your own level of ignorance, this justifies not even bothering to read your comments, since they are so hostile and illogical both, you really have no credibility so I wonder why you'd even bother, cuz everybody now knows what a waste of time it is to read you. I know they'll let you comment, but everybody now has fair warning just what value it is to read anything under your name, by your own demonstration, so haha to you, thanks for outing yourself, couldn't have done it without you.
Rev Mark D,
Why do you call yourself a reverend if you're not a Christian?
Pastor Day: Universal Life Church certifies me as a pastor and when ulc emails me these posts, they refer to me as "Pastor." I did not request it, this is a practice and determination by the ULC, so you might want to take it up with them.
However in general, "Pastor" is not the exclusive property of any Christian Church, or even any other group besides the church issuing it. For example, the Unitarian Universalist Church formally ordains its community religious ministers, also allowed by law, as Pastor. Christian hood is not a requirement of any state or of the Unitarian Universalist Church. You might just need the states legal certification and permission to be a pastor in your state, or, for example, any marriage you officiate without such civil State authorization would not be legal for valid. For example, as a pastor ordained by the universal life church, I have been certified and seven counties of my particular state to perform legally valid marriages.
Does that answer your question?
Rev Mark D,
Thank you for your kind lecture, but you did not answer my question at all. On the contrary, you sidetracked it.
I am also ordained by ULC. I know how this works, so spare your breath... or rather don't waste your typing!
ServantOfJudgement,
very well said!
@ Pastor George Day Help us out here….. What did he say?
It's starting to look like Pastor George Day was just another drive-by.
No, George is around, you just either hasn't got around to it or doesn't find it worth answering. Whatever you may think of Pastor George Day, I proceed him to be honest and forthright, but maybe it doesn't realize when sometimes is resorting to actual just tricks of rhetoric and debate, not realizing that they can be rather transparent sometimes and not the best or most clean expression of his truly believed position. But I'm certain he's sincere.
Mark, like I said: don't waste your typing!
Douglas, really it looks like you were just having a bad day and need a lollipop to suck on or something. Settle down read with SOJ wrote and stop Manufacturing cuz I think that's what you're doing. Blasting when he needs it, he doesn't need it he hasn't done anything. Save it for when it makes sense, ok?
@Rev Mark D Another reverend wanting explicit gay sexual acts to be performed. I thought you told us God doesn’t like gays and gay sex yet you seem to like it.
What??!! What a bizarre thing to say. I said no such thing either you are psychotic or projecting what's in your own head. Or just being openly provocative for the hell of it. Anyway no I didn't told you that ever anywhere and I'd love to see where you think such a quote or statement by me exists.
Or to put in another way: What are you smoking and where can I get some?
Rev Mark D,
Check the negative past tenses!
@ServantOfJudgement
If you were paying out of your pocket, you would allow her to continue for how long?
Would you allow other members to do the same, regardless of faith?
How long would you expect a public service meeting to last with more than one person calming themselves with religious quotations?
Catherine Like I said, if she's on the mic preaching that's a no go.
If she's saying it to herself, who can stop someone from talking? If its constant and disrupting the business of the board even Jesus would save enough. If its once in a while and to herself, who cares? None of this information is given in the article.
@ServantOfJudgement
If Rooks only did it occasionally and had not caused disruption of proceedings, would this discussion exist?
ServantOfJudgement,
It's also about free speech.
Hey Catherine: if I can answer your question, no I will allow that person zero time to continue, because come at sections are very limited and school boards when they are discomforted limit, sometimes severely, the amount of time or things that can be said or a number of people who can consume that time, on the pretext of having to preserve good order and efficiency, but sometimes masking the real purpose which is to reduce public comment time to zero if possible, since it can be politically uncomfortable... That's a trick of dishonesty and ill intent by the board to squelch public participation and speech. So the answer to your question is I would let her get away with zero of it and if I had the power to do anything more, I would defeat it, reverse it, and otherwise limited and control it as an abridgement of their public trust and duty.
Perhaps other members should start quoting from The Satanic Bible (there a lot of good advice in there) to give them strength and courage as board members, like she claims quoting her religious texts gives her.
Why should LGBTQ literature be imposed on the people? You're not understanding the moral ramifications of what is truly behind this sinister Marxist movement.. The system wants control of the minds of the kids. The parents have no say. Funny. I thought the parents elected school.board members to represent them. Not the other way around. Libtardism is going to go down violently
@Keith Allen Steele Eash
Do organized religions not want to control people, particularly children?
How much say do parents have over their children when it comes to religious practices?
I think parents should represent themselves and their children.
Pretty much like your answer here Catherine.
Catherine,
Yes they all want to indoctrinate the youth. Artists want to, Muslims want to witches want to and you want the youth to be taught what you believe, we all do. That's why schools are preaching lgbt2qia++map full thrust. It's the spirit of the age, follow the new mantra or suffer.
@ServantOfJudgement
Isn't that unreasonably presumptuous? You do not speak for me. And to assume entire groups of people are like the relative handful you are familiar with is not useful in discussion.
Perhaps defensive projection is how you naturally express yourself? Maybe you're being snarky? Whatever the case may be, your comments above do not further discussion.
"Children don't come from you, they come through you." ~Kahlil Giubran~
Actually SOJ, there is another way of looking at things - believe it or not.
I see the usual suspects on this blog defending "Religious Rights". They maintain that Heather Rooks has the "Right" to express her beliefs, that it's about freedom of worship and freedom of speech.
Imagine this - a school board of a dozen or so members, all of whom are Heather Rooks. One by one they all get up and deliver their sermons to the rest of the school board, as they see fit. Hours pass.
Now, at the end of that meeting, can you tell me what work was accomplished? "The important work of bringing God to school", you might say, as she did - and that's what this is really all about.
Heather Rooks believes in God, and adamantly believes the rest of the world should too. The world NEEDS to hear the great news! So, like any sensible Christian she seizes available opportunities to do the right thing.
She knows what she needs, you see - and she knows what everybody else needs too - just like all the people that agree with her. Anybody who sees things differently, believes differently, lives differently - they are all WRONG, you see.
These Christians adamantly believe that their view is right, and everybody else is wrong. These Christians want everybody else to just shut up and listen to THEM. These Christians have all the maturity and perspective of a three-year-old child. They only see their view, and they want to have their way, and they don't care how much they have to scream and stamp their feet to get it. They want it all - the school boards, the towns, the cities, the world - the entire universe. Oh yes - and the children too. Nobody else can have the children - because they know what's best for them, and NOBODY ELSE.
Procrustean sums it up.
At procrustian to the other guys pastification down there and you're on the way to a nice Clams Alfredo.
Procrustean is the perfect word Catherine.
Thank you.
Catherinev Holy Cow of course they want to control children, for generations it's been known that controlling children controls the future, consider the red guard, consider the Hitler youth, both very sober and intelligent attempts, which work very well extraordinarily well, to turn children into babbling acolytes or automatons, robots who will do whatever it is their instructors and teachers will ask, and think and also do whatever they ask, with machine like efficiency and relentless perpetuity. Consider the red guard, children permanently convinced to report on their parents which resulted in the parents' imprisonment. It's the human equivalent of birds' "imprinting,".
If what you said was true, that children "imprint" with whatever they're told, we'd all still be squatting in caves worshipping stone idols.
Ugh. What a fat farce. What is actually happening is that these Christian scenarios are being set up in order for these attorneys to be able to claim First Amendment rights and take it all way to the Supreme Court, where they hope to find a sympathetic conservative view (and they will). It’s despicable, much like most of the intolerant Christian views.
Joe: True Dat. But so was the bus thing in Birmingham. It's actually a a form of playing by the rules though, credit where credit is due.
Absolutely right, it's not a free speech issue, it's not even a "speech," using it as a self-sealing mechanism. Well she can take care of her own business herself rather than impose it on other people, that is, if she's a serious adult capable of doing the job she's expected to do and ran for to get, same as any other job she went after and got. I have another comment at the very bottom that explains it in greater detail but it has nothing to do with religion and it has nothing to do with free speech, it has to do with her boundary problem and obviously she has two boundary problems, she won't excuse herself to take care of her personal business so she can come back and work, and she's doing something that makes it look like she's trying to convert people or steal souls at the school district during school district time on School district business. Somebody needs to talk to her and she needs to listen..because she is creating problems all by herself and not of necessity. And yes the school district has a case because this is not a use of free speech, that's not what she's trying to do, so she doesn't have the right to impose a law that restrains others or imposes on others. That's clear. Has nothing to do with church or free speech, it has to do whether she has a right to civilly impose herself on other people for her own personal needs at their expense... Which means she doesn't. It rather it makes more sense for the board to just simply come together and remove her and then have a special election or an appointment to fill the slot until the next regular election. We just had that problem in my own city council and it was resolved, at Great length and effort, finally, while 1/4 of the city was not represented for nearly a year and believe me it was a serious problem for everybody.
Rev Mark D,
Just look at the extent of the length you take to peel out such pernickety unpacking of the meticulous details of your allergy to God! That's what it is. Admit it!
Not God, just people like you who invent and than misuse God.
Oh and hey George, I think you meant to say "persnickety."
Mark, sometimes it’s okay to be persnickety…..as in your message.
Rev Mark D,
Yes. Thanks for the correction :-)