A Minnesota pharmacist is being sued for refusing to fill a prescription for the morning-after pill, citing his personal beliefs.
It’s a case believed to be the first of its kind… and which could have major repercussions nationwide.
Should pharmacists seriously have the right to refuse prescription medication just because they don’t agree with it?
Broken Condom… Broken System?
In January 2019, Andrea Anderson was seeking emergency contraception after a condom broke. She got a prescription from her doctor, but when she went to fill it at the McGregor Thrifty White pharmacy in McGregor, Minnesota, "the pharmacist on duty told her that he would be unable to fill her prescription because of his 'beliefs.'"
The complaint says that pharmacist George Badeaux – who also moonlights as a local pastor – refused to elaborate further.
Adding to the problem, McGregor isn’t exactly a bustling metropolis with other options. With a population of 384, Anderson was left with no choice but to fill the prescription 50 miles away in the midst of a harsh Minnesota snowstorm.
According to the suit, this isn’t the first time Badeaux’s refused to fill contraceptive prescriptions, believing they induce abortions – although the particular contraceptive in this case, Ella, simply prevents pregnancy in the first place.
Regardless, Anderson is suing the pharmacy, arguing that they were in violation of Minnesota’s Human Rights Act. Believed to be the first case in the nation of its kind, it could have repercussions in Minnesota and beyond.
Going to Plan B
Of course, this all may be a moot point in the future anyway. Some fear that in the wake of the recent Supreme Court ruling overturning Roe v. Wade, contraceptives could be in the crosshairs.
That fear isn’t unfounded. In his written opinion in the ruling overturning Roe v. Wade, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas even said that other landmark rulings, like the right to contraception as decided in Griswold v. Connecticut, should be “reconsidered”.
At least some politicians are bracing for that very scenario. The U.S. House of Representatives recently passed a bill that would enshrine the right to contraception in federal law, but at this time it is unclear if it would have the votes to clear the Senate.
In the meantime, though, it’ll be interesting to see how the Minnesota case shakes out.
With many pro-life groups emboldened by recent wins at the nation’s highest courts, we may see more cases like this in the future. Although this may be the first case of its kind, it's likely not the last.
What do you think? When should a medical professional be able to refuse service on religious principles, and how far can that reasonably extend?
164 comments
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Sally Ann Durham
Everyone is the same in God's eyes as his creation. God loves his children. However the Bible is clear about sin.
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Sally Ann Durham
Everyone is the same in God's eyes as his creation. God loves his children. However the Bible is clear about sin.
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Doctor Loyal
In this particular instance, the responsibility should, first and foremost be placed as a priority over personal choices. When performing a task that one has sworn to perform, the responsibility to perform a task is a priority. This is the Pharmacists Oath, which he/she swears to prior to licensing. Nowhere in the oath does it say that my personal beliefs shall preempt my professional standards.
The revised Oath was adopted by the AACP Board of Directors and the APhA Board of Trustees in November 2021. AACP member institutions should plan to use the revised Oath of a Pharmacist during the 2021-22 academic year and with spring 2022 graduates.
"I promise to devote myself to a lifetime of service to others through the profession of pharmacy. In fulfilling this vow:
I will consider the welfare of humanity and relief of suffering my primary concerns. I will promote inclusion, embrace diversity, and advocate for justice to advance health equity. I will apply my knowledge, experience, and skills to the best of my ability to assure optimal outcomes for all patients. I will respect and protect all personal and health information entrusted to me. I will accept the responsibility to improve my professional knowledge, expertise, and self-awareness. I will hold myself and my colleagues to the highest principles of our profession’s moral, ethical and legal conduct. I will embrace and advocate changes that improve patient care. I will utilize my knowledge, skills, experiences, and values to prepare the next generation of pharmacists. I take these vows voluntarily with the full realization of the responsibility with which I am entrusted by the public.”
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Rev Ned
If sex is all about “God’s Will”, then isn’t erectile dysfunction God telling you “No more sex for you!”?
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Sally Warren
To what end? The good of the person or the good of the very reverend? And what if that “very reverend” is self motivated by ego and misinformation. This is a dangerous and slippery slope seen playing out in sharp focus. Leave religion out of medical and political fields or start looking for jobs with the Taliban. They think they are doing God’s work as well. Yet look at how women are treated??? Is the US really going there? It seems ripe for religious indoctrination to become the norm rather than a choice.
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Paul Edward Nunis
There's a reason why pharmacy school is significantly shorter than medical school, and the praxis is less comprehensive. They aren't licensed to diagnose conditions, or to override an MDs treatment.
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Patricia A. Ladd
Unless this pharmacist wants to contribute to the cost of rearing this child he should fill the prescription or have another pharmacist fill it.
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Rev. Rory
testing
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Kenneth Simon
Comment removed by user.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Religious reasons? Like denying treatment based on the Curse of Ham, or scripture about killing heretics? I seriously doubt it.
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Kenneth Simon
The following newspaper link has the jury’s ruling on the case.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-minnesota-morning-after-pill-discrimination-verdict-20220806-jof6uqbqkffmngd5xmll4kwmam-story.html
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Charles Jude Platt
Thanks for the post. The juries verdict, I feel was insane. What ever happened to Jesus of Nazareth, who taught, "why are you looking at the splinter in your neighbors eyes, while (when?) there is a log in your eye?"
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Doctor Loyal
The House of Representatives passed a bill last month that would enshrine the right to contraception into federal law.
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Pastor George Day
Charles Jude Platt, maybe the pharmacist saw past that and actually managed to notice the baby in the womb? Glad that baby survived!
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Asa William Sprague, II
Pastor George Day, just so you know, we don't know if the baby survived (or if there even was a baby growing in her womb) as the individual mentioned in the article drove to a pharmacy located many miles away and had the prescription filled.
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Pastor George Day
Asa William Sprague, II, you are absolutely right, my friend... 100% in agreement! We do not know if there is a child in the building before we set fire! For once, I agree!
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Pastor George Day
Asa William Sprague, II, you are absolutely right, my friend... 100% in agreement! We do not know if there is a child in the building before we set fire! For once, I agree!
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Asa William Sprague, II
Considering that the 'building' in your metaphor is a woman, it's worth noting that the woman was not set on fire; either literally or figuratively.
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Father Frederick
It always seems like people have to get their hackles up over their beliefs when there is a clear solution. The pharmacist who had their beliefs should have asked a coworker who does not have the belief to make the transaction. Nothing needed to be said, and conflict didn't have to arise. It's sort of like my beliefs on certain things. If I'm uncomfortable, I apologize, say I have another commitment, and then give the part a name/phone of another ministers. Better to practice calm diplomacy than to go to war with someone who doesn't agree with you.
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Paul Edward Nunis
That might be the case in a large city CVS or Walgreens. In a 1 pharmacy town, there is a higher chance that all available other staff would be family, or congregation members with similar beliefs.
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Pastor George Day
Frederick Richard Vobbe, in other words: cooperate with evil rather than do it yourself!
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Kenneth Simon
The following is a link to a newspaper article on the lawsuit and jury’s ruling.
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-minnesota-morning-after-pill-discrimination-verdict-20220806-jof6uqbqkffmngd5xmll4kwmam-story.html
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Daniel Gray
Just like I said she would, she lost the case. When are people going to get it through their heads that the world does not revolve around them?
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Stephan C. Hall
Pharmacist here. In California a pharmacist can refuse to fill a prescription due to religious beliefs, but the pharmacy is required to help the patient get it filled there ( with another pharmacist) or at a nearby pharmacy. The idea is that one person’s beliefs should not stop the patient from getting a legally prescribed medication. In my opinion this guy is a jerk and should get out of pharmacy.
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Morris Meadow
I think that any person who has qualified for and received a State license to practice his/her profession should be held to non-discriminatory standards.
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arawngraalrd
Many soulless intolerant comments, here. Specific Performance was considered a violation of the 13th, last I heard. Slavery is bad, when Karen isn't the owner. If someone is hostile to daisies, there's no obligation of his green-house to carry daisies, and you wouldn't want to buy daisies from him anyway. Now, about those bursting condoms, didn't Panned Parenthood guarantee that Condoms were 100% Effective? Don't come to me for Prozac(r), because I'd sooner sell the ammunition for your AK-47.
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Ellie Will
This has been a conundrum for some time. Most large pharmacies have more than one pharmacist so this becomes a non-issue. If one has an issue with a certain prescription or practice, the other should provide the service. However, I do agree that if a pharmacist will not serve all clients equally, they should not be in a position to deny service to anyone. Personal belief? Fine - do not do whatever thing it is that offends you. Using this to withhold treatment for others? You should not be in that job.
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Asa William Sprague, II
For the sake of consistency with his own belief's, I'm rather shocked that this pharmacist even works at a place where medications like this are stocked and sold. How can he not worry about getting a stain on his soul when some of the money in his regular paycheck comes from the sale of these medications by other pharmacists and other stores?
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William Steven Robinson
In my opinion pharmacist George Badeaux ought to have his pharmacist’s license revoked and be barred from ever practicing his profession as a pharmacist again! It is not for him to judge the morals or beliefs or religious of those holding a valid prescription to be filled. What if he as a pastor believed that antibiotics went against some Biblical law and refused to dispense Amoxycillin to a sick patient who was severely harmed by his belief? George Badeaux needs to make a choice: Be a pastor to his flock OR be a pharmacist to the public! He cannot do both with his flawed interpretation of the Bible.
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Pastor George Day
William Steven Robinson, as a Christian I am telling you that there is a law of graduality when it comes to our biblical values. Protection of human life is at the top of that. This is a case of an abortifacient drug.
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P. Keith Benefiel
Men.
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Wilberta M. Berry
Absolutely not. If people are so faith driven become Ministers or Priests or Pastors. That's the appropriate play to display their faith. However, working in a secular job with the " general" public is ludicrous. It's tantamount to the likes of Tomas de Torquemada.
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Michael G Woram
If you have personal religious beliefs, you should be free to follow them in the religious realm. The problem is that if you become a pharmacist, dealing with a public that doesn't share your beliefs, you are operating in the secular realm. You have no right to impose your beliefs on others when you are acting in a secular capacity. The public has the right to expect a pharmacist to do their job. The pharmacist does not have the right to use their job as a means of imposing their religious beliefs on others. Jesus instructed us to honor this difference when he pointed out that rendering unto Caesar is what you are supposed to do when operating in Caesar's realm.
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Pastor George Day
Michael G Woram, did Jesus also say: "Kill babies in the womb?"
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Lionheart
Who knows what Jesus ever really said, George? We still don’t know for sure that he ever existed. 🤷🏼
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, you said that before.
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Lionheart
You’re so right, I did. There are times I just can’t resist 🤭
🦁❤️
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Robert Walters
I really weary of reading comments that may or may not address that actual question but rather degenerate into the writers personal belief's regarding his or her religious or non religious point of view. Any of us who have spent any time reading your comments already know your position.
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Julie Armstrong
I'm sorry as a professional, you have to serve the public their prescriptions. Do not impose your personal beliefs on other in such a way it will harm them. I rather see a female exercise her right, instead of having an unwanted person and selling it for sex or drugs or abusing it, or dumping it in a garbage can. The Pharmacist should have simply asked a co worker to ring her up or get out of her profession. In the medical field you can get a co worker to do something you personally don't believe in.
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Julie Armstrong
I'm sorry as a professional, you have to serve the public their prescriptions. Do not impose your personal beliefs on other in such a way it will harm them. I rather see a female exercise her right, instead of having an unwanted person and selling it for sex or drugs or abusing it, or dumping it in a garbage can. The Pharmacist should have simply asked a co worker to ring her up or get out of her profession. In the medical field you can get a co worker to do something you personally don't believe in.
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David A Foreman
Everyone needs to refuse service to Christians on the basis of religious belief. Fundamentalist Evangelicals are the single most hypocritical group on the face of the earth! They wouldn't know Jesus if he bit them on the ass. They want prayers in schools and at sporting events? Yeah. Right. Just try having Muslim or Buddhist or even Satanic prayers and SEE WHAT HAPPENS. They say they want religious freedom but they are PROVEN liars. What they want is "Christian" Supremacy! (Preferably White Christians!!!)
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Pastor George Day
David A Foreman, by the very fact that I, and evangelical, am OK with ULC membership and ordination goes to prove how wrong you are! BINGO!
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Michael Barton
As long as someone there, or within another business in the area is willing, then it's not a problem. People are free people, which means they can say no to things they do not agree with.
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Stephanie A Willey
When your religion comes into conflict with your clearly defined job duties, then you either need a different job or a different religion. The pharmacist here likely doesn't stand a chance in court. There was a case, I believe in Michigan in which a pharmacist was sued (I recall it was the pharmacy that was sued) for refusing service, filling a prescription for a transgender person. That pharmacist lost in court and lost their job.
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Pastor George Day
Stephanie A Willey, that is a different scenario.
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Steve Schafir
You are paid to do a job. Your personal feelings or beliefs have nothing to do with it. If you don't want to do what the job description says then quit and find a job where you don't have to do this. Are we going to allow religion to dictate what we can and cannot do on the job, any job. Soon no one will work doing anything because they will find a religious exemption to it.
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Pastor George Day
Steve Schafir, sir. Only when it conflicts with First Amendment rights.
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Lady Celynia
The only reason a pharmacist should refuse to fill a prescription from an MD is if the prescription is contraindicated for medical reasons - as in a wrong dosage, not the correct medication for the condition or the medication will not mix well with other current medications. This guy needs to find another job or the pharmacy needs to hire another pharmacist that will work the exact same hours and fill the prescriptions the ultra religious pharmacist refuses to fill. In the same way that the shop clerk refuses to handle pork. She is within her rights, but the store needs to be certain there are others available to check out their customers.
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Pastor George Day
Lady Celynia, is it not contraindicated for 'medical' reason when as drug causes abortion? Next question: when does life begin? Do you actually know for sure? And if there is even the slightest possibility that a murder could be committed (viz the killing of innocent life in the womb), would that not be contraindicating medical reason?
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David Buck
The job is to fill prescriptions. If you are unwilling to perform ALL the requirements of that job, find another line of work. It's that simple. You have no right to try and force your beliefs on anybody else, especially in a small town where you are the only source of this service. Only a complexly insensitive [insert four-letter Anglo-Saxon swear word here] would have forced that poor girl to drive 80 miles through a snowstorm to get her prescription filled.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@William Dusenberry - I have yet to meet a Christian who knows much about their own religion. There are currently 50,000 Christian religions in the world and I will ask a Christian how many religions they looked at before selecting the one they are following. They usually tell me one. Then I ask if there's only one word of God how did that evolve into 50,000 different religions?
I can give you evidence we lack free will. Hold your breath. Yes we can do it for a limited amount of time but then we lack the will to keep holding it and breath. In nature there are things which prevent us from having free will. Lead which was added to gasoline was found to make people more violent. As lead was removed from gasoline violent crimes decreased. Arsenic which was once used to flavor foods, and in clothing like lead is known to cause behavioral changes.
I think we have free will except when we don't and don't know when that happens.
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Ronaldo
I would be unstoppable and a god in my own right except for one thing: the laws of physics. Free will cannot circumvent reality. I cannot walk on water, even though my will is strong, nor can I fly to the moon on gossamer wings. Free will determines how you react to reality; it does not give you the ability to control that reality.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Ronaldo Not sure where you live, but where I live people walk on water all the time. Every winter after water is frozen. No laws of physics broken there. If you think free will determines how you react to reality what happens when you take drugs which have known side effects such as making one violent? There are medical operations which alter one's behavior as a side effect. It well documented women after delivering have and do become murderous. If one's mind is altered does that change reality?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, free will is about the freedom to choose good or wrong as your informed conscience dictates. Period.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day I can prove to you people do wrong with informed conscience. I can even make you do it. You have free will to a point and then you don't.
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, what you call 50.000 different 'religions' (which to my best knowledge are instead 30.000) are actually denominations of a common religion known as Christianity. Islam, Judaism and Buddhism have the same.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day Looks like I'm mistake, it's not 50,000 Christian religions anymore, but 45,000. With all of the young people leaving the Christian religion there are 5,000 less now.
Are you saying Islam, Judaism and Buddhism have same number? Please post credible link to we can verify.
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, I don't need to. Look for yourself: Hillsong, Elevation, Jesus Image, Upperroom, Youth 2000, Catholic Charismatic Renewal, Holy Trinity Brompton, Neocatechumenal Way... to quote but a few... all young people's movements! You seem to be circumspect within your own bubble and only believe your own unfounded statements... or rather a statement. You keep quoting the same one, as far as I have noticed so far! Time to change records, don’t you think?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day You forgot Young Life and Sunbeams. Never said there were not any young people's movements just saying the number of young people who want to be part of such movements overall in on the decline.
Young people today want nothing to do with people who promoting the hated for their friends because of their sexual orientation, how they dress and what bathroom they MUST use. They know and see these people are good people and not the devil as Christians tell everyone. These people ARE God's creations and young people don't want to hate their friends.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
The Gray Minister” (above) claims that humans have, what is called, “free will” — which those who know anything about socialization know — is a myth.
We are, where we stand, live, who our parents, religion, political system, education availability, mass media, peers, and other tribal members are — and we have little or no opportunity to formulate — what we consider to be — our own opinions.
Whenever I get the opportunity, to speak with a true Jesus believer, I ask them what they know about Hinduism, Islam, or the Universal Life Ministries - and when they answer “nothing” — If becomes obvious that they lack free will.
To exercise free will — one must be completely aware of everything that’s going on everywhere— which is impossible.
The only thing that is completely free is “Nature” because nature does whatever it wants to do — that’s why we Secular Humanist Pantheist call nature our God — and SHP’ers have the only provable God.
So there,
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Ronaldo
You may be bound by your upbringing and what others have led you to believe, but I am not. I have free will, and I know how to use it. I don't need to know what is going on in China, or the Arctic, or anywhere else in the world outside of my immediate surroundings to make informed and free decisions. None of my opinions exactly match those of my parents, siblings, teachers, or television, so their teachings do not determine my choices completely. I have combined all that I have learned, applied the scientific method of thinking, and came up with my path in life. That is called free will. God is not "smiting" every sinner that kills, maims, abuses, or steals, because of that great gift of free will. He prefers that the sinners turn to Him, but He won't force it. Without free will, we would have a perfect society, and we do not.
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Pastor George Day
Ronaldo, you have just explained the reason for the existence of evil. Well done!
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Pastor George Day
William Dusenberry, free will is a moral factor. It has nothing to do with intellectual knowledge. This is Gnosticism, which is a heresy. And you don't even know, probably, what that means.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Well, if Christians want to use scripture, to justify their actions; then maybe we should counter with the teachings of Odin, ""Wherever you know of harm, regard that harm as your own; and give your foes no peace."
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The Gray Minister
No they should not. I except you for your religious beliefs.
Go get a job you dont have anything against your religious beliefs
It’s like if I were that job no offense they’d be there on the floor putting up stock or cleaning the bathroom. I understand. I accept that you have religious stuff that gets in the way, but go find another job because now you’re slowing us down from making money, because you won’t do your job
Just makes me upset being who I think I am
They say Jesus is coming back to save well you know, what looking around that Flame in his eyes. And you see that when they talk about that. Hes yelling he’s kinda yelling at the church. So I think the Christians better clean their act up because I think Jesus is coming back to deal with his people, not the other way around. the more I think & the more I see,either it’s going to remain a awaiting process of this rapture stuff and all that’s supposed to come But this planet is for trials and tribulations the trial is if the end prophecy doesn’t happen ever will you believe still believe in blind faith that this Jesus stuff does exist it could’ve been made for money but if it does exist which I believe it does my tribulation is walking this earth believing that what I see is real
Because when I sit in church I feel just like Jesus when I talk to the people because when I’m talking to them the whole time I’m thinking and getting a vision in my head that I am arguing with the Greeks Jewish and whoever else was in the church that day.
So yeah this religious stuff is getting out of hand we have free will to do whatever we want and yes this guy had the free will to not sell but it’s not his store and it is his job so let’s turn up the heat and get rid of the snowflakes people I’m sick of it unless you belong to the church and you do exactly what they say all you get is this type of stuff I’m sick of it just like church and state are supposed to be separate they’re not everyone in the state belongs to a church most likely do you see how that works do you understand this it is not separate just like Christian saying they claim America they claim nothing the Indians were here first. They didn’t buy then we took it by Force. Thats what I see when I look at history. I don’t I don’t care what you try to teach me you’re just trying to deceive me I can read for myself. Nowadays I don’t even trust that hence why I don’t watch the news anymore.
It just makes me frustrated you read this book every day or you’re taught this book every day and the people that read the book most they don’t meditate on what to figure out in the book when they misunderstand stuff.
No they run to the pastor or whoever it’s like what if they’re deceived And I don’t mean that they’re deceived knowing that they are. I mean as in from the very beginning like I said I brought up the curse in revelations look at everyone of these Bibles words have been taken out and words have been put back in they been added but changed even though they’re the same word maybe if they were translated right. And now anything like that and if you can see my point look around everyone that has done this to a Bible has brought the curse of God on our land the earth because they had to make stuff politically correct that was not the intent. It’s said pacifically not to take away from the book or add to it by taking the word out or translating it into another language you have now taken away from the book and because we don’t truly know if that’s exactly the true translation now it’s been added and it’s English or Russian or German gods upset why are you thinking he around and if you think he’s around you better think again. Its the angels because they’re the ones that are around and of course Jesus but because who I think I am I’m not back to save any this time. Believe and you will he saved in the sence of original sin. Then the book starts keeping track again.My rant is done. Minster Gray. I have so much anger but its out of dumbness of what I see on this planet now 2000 yrs later. So disappointed
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Daniel Gray
And sorry for your luck but a jury of men AND women have ruled you are incorrect as to try and force someone to do something that is against their religion or lose their business because of them standing to their religion is just wrong. So like it or not, https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-minnesota-morning-after-pill-discrimination-verdict-20220806-jof6uqbqkffmngd5xmll4kwmam-story.html the woman lost the case just as I tried to tell people here that she would and as you can see by reading some of the responses all the ones demanding that she win the case need to have their diapers changed
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CB Cuff
If this same pharmacist was an MD would he be okay with not providing vaccinations? So much the the oath to 'do no harm'.
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Daniel Gray
The oath to do no harm is for a MEDICAL DOCTOR NOT a Pharmacist.
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Daniel Gray
If he or she are the only ones there that can fill the prescription then they can go to a different pharmacy, its not that dang difficult. On the other hand if they are the only one in town its THEIR business and as such SCOTUS has already said that they can refuse so it makes no difference what these people say they will lose the case. Sounds to me like a person who intentionally went to a pharmacy just to prove a point and got bit for doing it. In my state (and I dont like it one bit but keep it to myself) its legal on state level for you to get pot and use it. The problem is that I am a Veteran and if they do a blood workup on me and find this in my system, I am screwed as they will never give me any more medication. Same thing here, makes no difference what the state law says, Federal law and SCOTUS rulings already are superior to state or local laws. Its time people understand that. You want it changed then get Congress to do this otherwise if he owns the business he cant be sued. And if there were others who could fill the prescription then he still cant be sued as she could have got it in the first place. This case will be tossed out and she will lose it. That is fact so deal with it.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Not that easy if you live in a small city and the next pharmacy is say an hour or two away and you don't have a car.
As for SCUTUS ruling you aren't looking at the entire picture. The pharmacist and business most defiantly can be sued and would loose. Remember we have the Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 which states no business (public or private) serving the public can discriminate based on a customer's national origin, sex, religion, color or race.
We clearly have a discrimination case based on religion and sex in this case. Discrimination cases are an easy win in the courts.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry I am You can try and spin it all you wish but the facts remain that if there is another person there they can fill the prescription. She refused and demanded that he do it and thats where she falls in error of the 1st Amendment and at least 6 different US Supreme Court decisions.
And sorry again as there is no law out there that requires a person to go against their religious beliefs that can be enforced. Any pre law student will tell you this
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Tom
You really should read these articles before commenting. If you had you would have read the part that said this was the only pharmacist in her town and she had to travel 50 miles away to have her prescription filled.
"Adding to the problem, McGregor isn’t exactly a bustling metropolis with other options. With a population of 384, Anderson was left with no choice but to fill the prescription 50 miles away in the midst of a harsh Minnesota snowstorm"
If a pharmacist can turn away a patient due to their personal religious beliefs, can they also refuse to serve a person of color if they believe the darkness of their skin is evidence they are descendants of the devil? This is the same type of bigoted reasoning racists used in the Jim Crow south that I thought the US had moved past after the Civil Rights Movement but apparently not.
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Daniel Gray
You really should read the SCOTUS decisions that say he DOES have the right to do this. If its his business then he can do anything he wants with it no matter if it make some people upset And if she was thinking this far ahead to go and get condoms, then she should have had this medication on stand by. You seem to ignore the fact that she could drive to her doctor in the same blinding snowstorm to get the prescription so driving really wasnt the issue here was it? Thus it completely destroys her credibility and will make sure that her case is tossed. And if there was a hospital around are you now going to try and say that there was no pharmacy in the hospital? I find that VERY hard to believe as 99.9% of hospitals HAVE a pharmacy as thats where they get the medication to give to the patients IN the hospitals and the big sign on the wall says they CANT turn you away, so she could have went there and got her medication. Sorry but she is looking for a quick payday and she is going to find out very fast that its going to cost her more then what she thought she was going to get.
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James Riggle-Johnson
This is dangerous. With this reasoning, the pharmacist could refuse to fill a prescription for medications that prevent HIV transmission or refuse to fill medication that’s keeping a person with AIDS alive. His religious beliefs should not guide his decision on whether or not to fill a prescription a doctor has written. People will begin to die.
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Pastor George Day
James C Riggle, what about the child in that woman's womb? Do they have an opinion on what is 'dangerous,' as you put it?
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Being opposed to the use of birth control, during an era when human overpopulation is clearly destroying the carrying-capacity of the planet Earth — is akin to being an enemy of humanity (as the GOP, the Catholic Church, and the Southern Baptists currently are).
Whatever one’s cause, it’s a lost cause without the use of birth control
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Pastor George Day
William Dusenberry, what a pile of nonsense! I used to be Southern Baptist, and they are not at all against birth control. Quite the opposite, actually. The issue with this drug is that it's not contraceptive but abortifacient! Read the article.
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Marcella J Schieffelin
Clarity is needed here. This is an ethical issue, not a moral issue. The code is ethics for a Pharmacist was blatantly disregarded therefore there needs to be some sort of corrective action.
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Randy C Hamilton
Did he get fired?
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Donald Michael Woodward
When we start taking away the right to individual decisions we open the door to authoritarianism. It will become a path for more of the same. How bad can it get should not be a question when it comes to freedom of choice. Our country is in trouble. The worse the economy gets, the need to put blame will become stronger. We will gather into groups just like the Christian Nationalists and attempt to blame each other for our failures. We need a strong leader to advocate cooperation and social growth, something we do not have now. Taking away any rights to decide how a person wants to live is going to lead to our failure as a country that prides itself on freedom.
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Doctor Loyal
In this particular instance, the responsibility should, first and foremost be placed as a priority over personal choices. When performing a task that one has sworn to perform, the responsibility to perform a task is a priority. This is the Pharmacists Oath, which he/she swears to prior to licensing. Nowhere in the oath does it say that my personal beliefs shall preempt my professional standards.
The revised Oath was adopted by the AACP Board of Directors and the APhA Board of Trustees in November 2021. AACP member institutions should plan to use the revised Oath of a Pharmacist during the 2021-22 academic year and with spring 2022 graduates.
"I promise to devote myself to a lifetime of service to others through the profession of pharmacy. In fulfilling this vow:
I will consider the welfare of humanity and relief of suffering my primary concerns. I will promote inclusion, embrace diversity, and advocate for justice to advance health equity. I will apply my knowledge, experience, and skills to the best of my ability to assure optimal outcomes for all patients. I will respect and protect all personal and health information entrusted to me. I will accept the responsibility to improve my professional knowledge, expertise, and self-awareness. I will hold myself and my colleagues to the highest principles of our profession’s moral, ethical and legal conduct. I will embrace and advocate changes that improve patient care. I will utilize my knowledge, skills, experiences, and values to prepare the next generation of pharmacists. I take these vows voluntarily with the full realization of the responsibility with which I am entrusted by the public.”
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Pastor George Day
Doctor Loyal, you seem to forget First Amendment rights.
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Nicholas J Page
Its not the pharmacist job to play god.He's paid to do a job whatever His beliefs if you can't do the job.Find another that does not include medicines or pharmaceuticals. Go ahead sue him you will win
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Paul Edward Nunis
And if the pharmacist is also the owner, and can't be fired? Not uncommon in smaller places.
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Doctor Loyal
Perhaps in that case, file suit against the man as a pharmacist for failure to fill the prescription as required by law, and file suit against the business for failure to provide a competent pharmacist, as required under the business license as a business purporting to be a pharmacy
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Reverend Kurt
I think you all have the wrong end of the stick. I postulate that it has nothing to do with religion but power. These people who refuse to do what they are paid to do are expressing power over other people. The perpetrators of this philosophy believe that they are insignificant (the bullied, loners social hermits etc), BUT using religion they can exert considerable power. These people see everyone else as a tall poppy, and that it is their god given right and duty to tear down anyone they choose.
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Rev. B
Power and control are what religion is all about. That's kind of a given.
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SueW
In some states they are allowed to do this, but typically only when they can hand it off to another pharmacist to be filled. But personally, I believe they signed up to dispense medication, not judge their customers. Imagine if someone was a minister and took a dislike to some biblical words and refused to say them? When you take a job, you take the whole job, not just the parts you agree with.
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Pastor George Day
SueW: FIRST AMENDMENT!
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Charles Jude Platt
The pharmacist should have their license removed & they should be ordered to pay restitution to the person. Don't forget they should pat child support for babies that were created in such an evil, lust filled way. Does anyone believe in God these days???
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James M Slack
I do not think a pharmacist has the right to refuse a doctors prescription order. He or she should do her job as their required to do. Unless the pharmacist knows there is a harmful problem. Then call the doctor. Until then full the script.
James M Slack
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Don’t just sue the pharmacist, sue the pharmacy. Turn the situation into something that will make life difficult for ALL religious people. Myself? I don’t hire the religiously delusional, Trump supporters, or racists. But, of course, only bc there are more qualified applicants. As in ones that (in order from above) have critical thinking skills, can identify lying sacks of bovine fecal matter easily and haven’t been brainwashed by mommy, daddy and Uncle Billy Bob.
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Pastor George Day
Dr. Zerpersande, so to your own admission you break the law through discrimination!
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Johnny Mac
GOD Bless the Pharmacist!
And I pray she will ask for forgiveness for the sin she created with who she had sex with.
HOLY FATHER, we pray that these weak souls will strengthen in their love of you and follow your commandments and quit fornicating for this sin! Amen
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Donald Richard Starns
How can you and this pharmacist presume to judge another human in need? I’d say it’s none of your business.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Birth control pills are prescribed for several medical conditions other then just preventing women from becoming pregnant. Not only is it none of the pharmacist business, if the university The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 states that no business (public or private) serving the public can discriminate based on a customer's national origin, sex, religion, color or race. Can't imagine anyone would want to mess with a discrimination lawsuit, they would lose.
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Pastor George Day
You are correct when it comes to contraceptive drugs, Douglas Robert Spindler. This isn't a contraceptive drug, but an aborticide one.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day What is the difference between contraceptive drug and an aborticide one? They both prevent unwanted pregnancies.
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, not at all. Contraceptive drugs prevent life. Abortifacient drugs kill a life in formation.
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Michael Hinkle
What??
The pharmacist should be the one to ask for forgiveness not filling a prescription by a medical doctor.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Johnny Mac are you ok with non Christian pharmacists refusing to fill Christian's prescriptions that they don't agree with?
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Rev. MichaelRS
The very epitome of a straw man argument.
First off. If I was a pharmacist, I would have no problem filling such prescription. So, now that that's out of the way...
We are talking about a very specific circumstance here. We are not talking about not filling the prescription because somebody is a different race or religion or sexual orientation than the pharmacist.
We're talking about a long held mainstream religious belief against contraception and abortion or anything abortion-like.
It may not be your belief or mine, but it's not something that was made up yesterday and it's not a rare belief.
That being said, the law is the law. And if the law in that state is a pharmacist who accepts licensure by the state to practice has to fill any legal doctor's prescription, then he should simply comply with the law.
OR, if there is a independent pharmacy that is owner-operated and they don't want to sell that sort of thing, I don't think they should be forced to. Simply hang a sign on the door saying that sort of thing is not available.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Michael, with that reasoning, the pharmacist could refuse to fill Truvada, PreP, or any other HIV medication because he doesn’t agree with that lifestyle. Gay men take PreP to avoid being infected with HIV. Should the pharmacist be allowed not to provide life-saving medication because he’s against gay men having sex? After all this is "very specific circumstance here."
If they can decide based on one drug, you open it up for any drug.
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Pastor George Day
James C Riggle, there is a so-called law of graduality in Christianity. Defense of life is a non-negotiable core value. In the scenario you describe, the defense of life value would override the opinion against two men having sex. In the case of the article, there is a life inside the womb of the woman.
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Maximillian Martin
Is it easy being such a delusional moron or did you have to work at it? The pharmacist should be fired!!! No questions asked!!!
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Amy Minckler
Hmm Johnny Very telling that SHE created the sin not THEY created. So it's only the woman's fault? That would mean the men are weak both in body and spirit and that women are powerful. Is this why you blame them for everything? How fearful your life must be.Do you get down on your knees and pray for all the priests who violate children? or the ones who have raped nuns? For the babies who's bones are found sealed in the walls of old convents? Do you pray for your own soul to be forgiven for judging others when Jesus says that is god's right and not yours? See Matt 7 Sermon on the Mount.
Which version of the bible are you working with? The Catholic, Protestant, there are over 30 right now. And please tell me that you realize that the bible was taken and rewritten and reorganize from the Torah, which is 2000 years older then Christianity.
There are over 5,800 Greek New Testament manuscripts known to date, along with over 10,000 Hebrew Old Testament manuscripts and over 19,000 copies in Syriac, Coptic, Latin, and Aramaic languages. As of September 2020 the full Bible has been translated into 704 languages, the New Testament has been translated into an additional 1,551 languages and Bible portions or stories into 1,160 other languages. Thus at least some portions of the Bible have been translated into 3,415 languages. In some cases words cannot be translated between languages. They can only be guessed it as they are more a concept. So a literal translation can be impossible to do.
Also the bible says to follow man's law. Which people fight against all the time, screaming it is against their beliefs.
Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Romans 13:1-2 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
Now I will say that I am no longer a christian, but I did study the bible quite a bit when I was. So how do you not know this as well? I have memorized quite a few verses over the years and some will say I am cherry picking the bible.Then again aren't most sermons based on a passage from the bible? Wouldn't that also be considered cherry picking?
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Pastor George Day
Yes, you are cherry-picking. Peter boldly replied: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)
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Amy Minckler
Not trying to be a butt head. I am saying this without snark.
The "we" is the problem. Usually when I say "we" without the qualifier of which "we" I am speaking of, I am usually speaking of people like myself. As the people are free to practice any religion they want, imposing one persons belief with another is religious discrimination.
The constitution prohibits the government from favoring one religion over another and forbidden to favor and foster religion generally. As we are all are aware (at least I hope so) that is not what is happening currently in the US political arena. I have yet to meet a force birther who isn't using religion as a reason to ban abortions.
I am not part of the christian "we". Why should I be forced to allow one religion to dictate the law? Just because christians believe theirs is the "one true" religion does not mean it is. That would be like forcing any woman who goes into a muslim business to ware a hijab before she is allowed through the door.
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Pastor George Day
Amy Minckler, your argument makes no sense, and in my comment, I was simply trying to prove your statement about the Bible wrong. You chose that statement, not me. I don't think that when people are trying to do the right thing it comes down to religion. I am for the free liberty of conscience. However, abortion is the taking of innocent human life, Toi me, this is a matter of black and white morality. No middle ground. I would be standing in this position from any religion or atheist or agnostic perceived fence. I have the same stance for animal life – in fact, I am vegetarian. And that too has nothing to do with being a Christian. I simply honor and respect life.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
May God bless this pharmacist, the way he did his chosen people during the holocaust.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yeah, praise the Jewish Zombie! Of course there would some crackpots praising stupidity.
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Charles Jude Platt
Hey your majesty, are you going to pay for all the sinful actions, that cause babies?
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Dan Anderson
Johnny Mac - Given none of us knows the reason for the prescription in the first place, how can ANYONE make a judgment as to the actions of the prescriptee? For all any of us knows, she may have been raped recently and need the scrip to ensure she is not made pregnant by her rapist.
IMHO, unless you know everything about the situation, how can you make a fair and accurate judgment on anyone or anything?
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Pastor George Day
Dan Anderson, certainly you are going very far by the stretch of your imagination!
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Lionheart
Johnny Mac, please get well from your deep indoctrination. If you did your research you would find that speaking to the floor, wall, or ceiling, pretending someone is there, has just as much affect as crossing ones fingers, which is actually…..zero effect.
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Kevin Michael Zurrin
Jacob's wife Rachael used birth control.
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Pastor George Day
Kevin Michael Zurrin, birth control and abortion are two separate things. This was a case of abortion.
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Asa William Sprague, II
Jacob's wife Rachel did not use birth control. She was infertile until she ingested an herb that allowed her to become pregnant.
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Doctor Loyal
This was not a sin, it was consensual sex with her husband. If you feel that her medication meets the requirements for the sin of "Onanism" than you may very well ask yourself if "nocturnal emissions" do not also meet those conditions.
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Linda D.L. Valentine
I am praying for you.
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Lionheart
What does that actually mean?
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SueW
Comment removed by user.
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Richard Darwin Richards
People are too eager to sue in this country. No wonder prescription prices are so high! Next thing you know somebody will sue for coffee being warm, oh.........
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Susan Colmenares
He shouldn’t be a pharmacist if he can’t fill every prescription.
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Michael Hinkle
Agree! A pharnacist or any pharmacist does not have the right to refuse to fill doctor prescribed medications for patients. It does not matter what belief he or she may believe in. A pharmacist refuse to fill doctor ordered prescruotion could have his or her license removed.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but SCOTUS says he CAN refuse and there isnt a darn thing she can do about it
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Gray WRONG, and that's a BIG FAT WRONG. If a pharmacist refuses to fill doctor prescribed medications they are practicing medicine without a license.
Then there's the issue of discrimination and the pharmacist/business refusing to do business with someone who is in a protected class.
The Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 states which states no business (public or private) serving the public can discriminate based on a customer's national origin, sex, religion, color or race.
While you say there's not a thing she can do, that's a lie. She can sue. And since she's a member of a protected class, women the pharmacist is screwed just as your theory SCOTUS sys there's nothing she can do.
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Daniel Gray
sorry but FACT! They are not practicing medicine without a license as they are not the ones who prescribed the medication, so I dont know how you even come to that conclusion as if you tried that line in a court they would laugh you off the building grounds.
A female is a protected class? since when? I cant find any reference to that in any law books nor in any law library strike 2.
And the most recent cases like the little Sisters of the Poor or the Colorado Cake maker say different, strike 3.
And again women are NOT a protected class and anyone who told you that they are is lying through their teeth as nowhere in federal law does this say anything like that.
Maybe you really should actually READ the law to know you CAN do what you are claiming that you cant. And its going to be a major tough nut to crack to try and convince any judge or jury that they must rule against federal law/the Constitution/and SCOTUS decisions as that would be a very simple case to get overturned if they try.
try again and this time check with an attorney or a law professor or judge and then when you come back with the red mark on your cheek after they slap the snot out of you with the law, then you can apologize. And if you dont believe this, then check and see how many State Prosecutors have been removed from their positions for refusing to follow federal law and SCOTUS decision.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Dude - HOW WRONG YOU ARE, AGAIN. First off pharmacists are doctors. They DO diagnose and treat patients. Being a doctor, they are NOT free to refuse a patient merely because a patient is a member of certain groups. As a doctor and in accordance with federal laws It is illegal and unethical to refuse to treat a patient because of the patient's sex, race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, or physical disability. And refusing treatment to a patient after the primary care physician has prescribed a treatment is called malpractice.
Seriously you can't find any references to women being in a protected class? Try opening your eyes next time you look.
Please provide a list of the State Prosecutors which have been removed from their positions for refusing to follow federal law and SCOTUS decision.
And while you are at it, how about producing a list of all of the State Prosecutors have NOT been removed from their positions for refusing to follow federal law and SCOTUS decision. It will be a much longer list. With the recent SCOTUS decision on many State Prosecutors have publicly stated they will not prosecute. And they have stuck to their word and NOT prosecuted, nor have they lost their job.
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Daniel Gray
Dude how CORRECT I am again, I have already told you what SCOTUS decisions that say the pharmacist can do this and you keep spinning trying and failing to overturn SCOTUS decision. SO keep complaining but it wont do you a darn bit of good as all of these decisions were 6 to 3 meaning that can they be overturned...yes, but if history is anything to go by the chances of them being overturned is 99% against. And I dont have a list of the ones who have not been warned to either do their job or resign. Heck even the Gov of NY warned one of here prosecutors that either they follow the ruling from SCOTUS or resign, and they are in one of the most liberal states. And sorry no again pharmacists aren't able to diagnose illnesses or prescribe medication, and never have been. maybe you really should know what you are talking about BEFORE you start talking because the American Pharmacists Association will and is calling you a liar on saying that they are doctors. And sorry for the last time in this post, I have checked everyplace from the US DOL to the DOJ and at no time or place does it claim that women are a protected class. Now if you think they are then prove it. Until then maybe you should stop posting and stop making yourself look far more foolish then you have been doing. Am I a protected class? Yes on three fronts, I am a Veteran, a Disabled Veteran and a Native American. hit the showers as you are finished.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Gray I asked for the list of State Prosecutors have been removed from their position. You told everyone their are many yet failed to provide even one.
Funny how you say there are no protected classes, yet you are a member for three?
If you are Native American why do you care about the latest SCOTUS ruling about abortion why you have the Hyde act? Do you consider yourself a Christian or do you follow your ancestors belfries? I thought Native American's respected women and women's rights unlike African-European-Americans.
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Daniel Gray
So now you are trying to spin it to save face? Sorry but you already cut that off with your head and the last post. You have been proved wrong by more then one Federal Agency and part of the US Government as well as the (union) membership of the pharmacist and the NY Gov and others and yet here you are still trying to bead a hose that has been dead for over 5 years. Give it up, you lost. At least admit it and keep a shred of the dignity you have remaining, and that is not that much to begin with
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Classic textbook Christian response. When you have lost the argument, don’t answer the questions which make you look worse and blame the other person.
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Daniel Gray
still spinning I see because you were destroyed and shown to be lying.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Comment has been removed.
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Cyril R. VanKeirsbelk
The pharmacy decides which medications they carry and which they do not. As an employee of the pharmacy the pharmacist is required to fill prescriptions they have in stock as part of his employment. The employer should fire the pharmacist for not doing their job. The pharmacist believing that a contraceptive is an abortificant is evidence that they are not qualified for their job. Knowing what medications are and their reactions is a pharmacist primary skill.
The employer should just can him for failure to perform the minimum requirements for the job.
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Daniel Gray
No they are not "required" to do anything and after checking all 50 states, there is NO law either state or federal that requires an drug store pharmacy to fill anything and you can be refused at any time, its up to the pharmacist. And its store of hard to have the owner can him when he IS the owner. Now may I suggest you actually do something just once? how about you actually READ the decision before posting on it again with false info and your personal opinion like you just did as a jury of 12 said you have no idea what you are talking about https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-minnesota-morning-after-pill-discrimination-verdict-20220806-jof6uqbqkffmngd5xmll4kwmam-story.html
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Pastor George Day
Michael Hinkle, not in a First Amendment case scenario.
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James Philip Reader
Yes, Exactly. If your beliefs prevent you from doing your job, get a new job.
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Kevin Michael Zurrin
He shouldn't be a pastor.
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Debra O'Neal
A pharmacist should be able to refuse since it goes against his religious beliefs. She can go to another pharmacy,
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Rev. T
Respectfully disagree; If the pharmacy is in business to provide prescription drugs, then the pharmacist should be reprimanded / disciplined for going against the manifest interests of his employer. The business has a legal obligation to serve the customer. If the pharmacists's "personal beliefs" prevent him from doing the job for which he is being paid, honor would require him to quit rather than continue under false pretenses.
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Pastor George Day
Thomas R King, does 'honor' pay the bills and buy bread for your family?
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Asa William Sprague, II
Pastor George Day - It sounds like you're saying 'honor' takes a backseat to making money. Are saying that is one of Christ's teachings?
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Debra O'Neal then I can refuse service to christians in my shop on the same grounds , they can go to another shop
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Rev. B
Yes, you can! But if you do, they will go nuts and whine and complain until you give in.
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Pastor George Day
Nathaniel Robert Hunt, that would be religion-based discrimination. Silly comment!
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
Its a church operated shop, and if other such can turn away gays I can turn away christians
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Pastor George Day
He is simply exercising his right to profess his religion.
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Lionheart
He’s entitled to do whatever he wants if it affects him in some way, that’s the beauty of freedom and liberty. However, he clearly needs to be reassigned to another job that won’t upset him. That could be difficult for people like him because, if he’s a Democrat, and woke, he might be one of those that gets upset because someone isn’t using the pronoun that he wants to hear, or he might find people to be xenophobic in some way, or, as in this case, he might be religious. People today get upset, or bent out of shape, at the slightest thing. I hope we never have to rely upon them in times of war, we wouldn’t want them to damage their finger nails, or nail polish. Know what I mean? 🤭
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James Riggle-Johnson
So, with that reasoning, the pharmacist could refuse to fill Truvada, PreP, or any other HIV medication because he doesn’t agree with that lifestyle. Gay men take PreP to avoid being infected with HIV. Should the pharmacist be allowed not to provide life-saving medication because he’s against gay men having sex? That's unacceptable.
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Lionheart
I totally agree James, this pharmacist is in the wrong job if he cannot adequately provide the service he was hired to do. He needs to find another job that allows him to enjoy all of his idiosyncrasies.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, I wonder what people like yourself are doing in a religious online church like this.
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Lionheart
1) This is not a religious online church, George. You have been sadly misinformed if you think it is.
2) I’m here to teach those that have been indoctrinated by religious BS, the importance of using logic, reason, and critical thought. 🤷🏼
Thank you for reading my comments, George.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, thanks for getting back. I have begun to grow quite fond of you, actually. It'd be nice eventually to have a one-to-one chat in my Zoom church room, if you feel OK with that.
Universalism is by default part of Christianity. It takes roots on Protestant Quakerism and sees the light of God in all human experiences - including those who are not Christian. You will notice the Christian blueprint of ULC in its organization (viz monastery, chapel, ordained ministers etc.). However, you are right: in universalism, and I believe in Unitarianism as well, non-Christians can join without embracing Christianity. We are a Universal church, which is part of Radical Protestantism - again by default. But you don't have to be.
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Lionheart
Awe….thank you for your kind invitation.
It’s good that all minds can get together without falling out, isn’t it? 🤗
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Rev. B
He is discriminating against people based on their perceived morality.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. B, no. He's protecting human life.
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Rev. B
No, he's not. He is looking for free publicity for stepping on women's rights. Please don't confuse the two.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. B, they used the term 'delusional' here before, right?
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Rev. B
Yes George, I regularly see religious people called delusional here. Very often, in fact. But it's not nice to point it out. They don't like it. They call it "faith" so it doesn't sound so ignorant.
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Rev. B
Yes they do, George. Almost always in reference to religious beliefs. Buy it is not nice to point it out. They don't like it. They call it "faith" so it doesn't sound so ignorant.
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, actually, no. I don't.
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Lionheart
There’s your problem, George!
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Katelynne Shouse
Good.....and while they're at it fire his ass as well!
How about this question— should places that religiously-indoctrinate their students — be allowed to call themselves colleges and/or universities?
Colleges and universities are supposed to try to determine what’s true, and vice versa, not places that perpetrate religious mythologies under the guise of perusing knowledge.