Christian wedding photographers can’t be compelled to photograph gay weddings if it goes against their religious convictions, a Kentucky judge just ruled.
Per the judge, the city of Louisville cannot enforce a nondiscrimination ordinance they passed in 1999 preventing discrimination on the basis of sexuality against a wedding photographer who says her Christian beliefs prevents her from photographing the unions of same-sex couples.
But LGBTQ advocacy groups are incensed, arguing that the ruling is blatantly discriminatory, and violates the city’s own anti-discrimination laws both local and nationwide, as well as moral decency.
LGBTQ Couples Out of the Picture
The photographer in question, Chelsey Nelson, joins a long list of Christian wedding vendors who’ve challenged anti-discrimination laws which make it illegal for them to serve same-sex couples. Every wedding vendor you can think of, including bakers, invitation designers, florists, and even venues have all had their day in court, often successfully defending their right to refuse service to LGBTQ nearlyweds.
Now wedding photographers join their ranks. Kentucky wedding photographer Chelsey Nelson has been fighting Louisville’s antidsicrimination ordinance since 2019, tackling its legality despite never being charged with violating it. Nevertheless, she just scored a major legal win. U.S. District Judge Benjamin Beaton recently ruled that the city cannot force her to shoot weddings for couples when their very marriage violates her Christian belief that marriage should solely be between a man and a woman.
In his judgment, Beaton stated that while the city “may require restaurants and hotels and stores to provide services regardless of the proprietors' views or their customers' legal status, the government may not force singers or writers or photographers to articulate messages they don't support."
He argued that the Constitution’s guarantee of freedom of religion supersedes any local ordinances the city of Louisville might have.
The ruling echoes similar judgments of years past. The baker who refused to bake a cake for a gay couple took his case all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled in his favor in 2018.
An Expected Development
Gay rights advocates say the ruling is disappointing, but expected. They say the case is one they've seen many times across the country: Christian wedding vendor challenges a law preventing LGBTQ discrimination, often before they’ve even been accused of violating it, and after years in the courts, gets a final judgment in their favor, with the legal system deciding their right to refuse service to gay couples beats out a gay couple’s right to be serviced.
Even still, Louisville Mayor Greg Fischer hopes to fight the ruling. “We are a city of compassion and we appreciate the many ways our LGBTQ+ family contributes to our diverse community,” he explained. “Louisville Metro Government will continue to enforce to the fullest extent possible its ordinance prohibiting anti-discriminatory practices and will fight against discrimination in any form.”
What do you think? When it comes to religious freedom and anti-discrimination laws, which side should win?
164 comments
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
For me, who and how you love is no business of mine so long as the relationship is mutually consensual, age appropriate and causes no harm.
I may not understand why a man would be attracted to another man, woman to woman, nor believing your birth gender is not who you are, BUT I try to treat everyone with courtesy, a friendly manner and tolerance, just because they were born, as my mom and da taught my sibs and I. If we can be good neighbors, working together where we do agree for the good of the community, THAT is what matters to me.
If a Christian (or other) decides not to do business with me as a Heathen, the loss is theirs. There are others who will be happy to take my money.
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Paul Anguiano
That iskind of the point of a free society. I am a Buddhist Minister. I feel that while I can agree that there is a want to be without discrimination as a customer. However, at what point does making people serve those they do not want to in private business settings. . If someone wont serve me, I go elsewhere. I dont know the parties involved but I would hate to see what happens when they get told that from other Religious bakeries. Muslims will not do it either, why are they not being sued?
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Rev. John Bolen
Any private business has the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason . If a business doesn't want to do business with a person , for whatever reason , then they should go find one that will .
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Tom
Could this photographer refuse to photograph a Black couple's wedding because they believe "The black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth" as Warren Jeffs believes? It wouldn't be the first time religion has been used as a cover for racism. Now people are using religion as a cover for homophobia. This is all too familiar to the Civil Rights movement of the '60s.
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Frank Michael Salinger
Yes, and reverse that scenario as well. Forcing people, only fuels more racism. More progress has been made by refusing to do business with racists. This even applies to religion itself. As people leave religions, religions change.
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Tom
This gets us into the paradox of tolerance, which states, “in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance.”
In the previous examples, the photographer is being intolerant of someone for something they cannot control, their sexual preference or skin color. Refusing to do business with racists is being intolerant of that group because of their intolerance.
Ending separate but equal and segregation, forcing these businesses to cater to both white and black people, furthered the goal of equal rights during the Civil Rights movement and has helped make racism less prominent. Allowing businesses to refuse service to homosexuals allows the business to believe that their homophobia, or their intolerance, is justified.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. John Bolen If you are talking about in the United States you are mistaken Hope you weren't taught this in our public school system. In the United States we have many anti-discrimination laws at the federal, state, and local level. Chief among these is the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which forbids discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, law in the country where you live might be different.
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Paul Edward Nunis
And the definition of what is a protected class includes a history of being oppressed. Anyone who believes that gay people in America have never fit that, should check again.
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Reverend Kurt
Douglas Robert Spindler: Many countries have strong anti discrimination laws. In these countries, these same laws are applied with common sense, therefore a lot less litigation. There is the expectation, of What would a reasonable and sane person expect . We may not be taught law in our public school system up to secondary and tertiary level, we manage to respect each other..
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Reverend Kurt I take it your are not in the United States. Here you will find Christians don't respect people. They judge people and if they don't meet THEIR Christians standards the don't treat them as garbage and file lawsuits against them. This is why young people today in the US want nothing to do with the Christian religions. Christens are just mean people.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Reverend Kurt You need to do some research. Most countries HAVE discrimination laws and aggressively enforce those laws. America is different today. In the past we had some wicked Christian based discrimination laws which we have slowly outlawed over the decades.
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Pastor Jim
If it were me, I wouldn't want a photographer who had issues with my choices of a partner. I'd rather find another photographer who would sppreciste my choice and use their skills freely and creatively (not begrudgingly). After all, this is still a free country and we still have constitutionally protected rights.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
For a religion to continue to exist — it must shelter its sheeple — from anyone who is not a believer in that particular religion — shelter them from science — shelter then from the liberal arts — shelter them from any news sources that aren’t propaganda sources — and prevent their members from doing business with anyone who’s not a member of their own particular cloistered tribal group (AKA, church)
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Magistar Mormaer MacLean
While I would not refuse to provide a service, freedom of choice for the photographer. There are plenty of other photographers available.
I would see it differently if the refusal was from a larger business, by way of their policy. That would be discriminatory. Everyone has their right to believe, whether we agree with that belief is again a free choice.
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Michael A Rutigliano
Double standards don't wotk
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Magistar Mormaer MacLean
There needs to be a middle ground, acceptable to all.
The right to believe is fundamental, Article 9 of United Nations Human Rights.
To suggest double standards only disengages those who sit at what already is clearly another polarised issue, where dialogue and jurisprudence should be promoted.
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Tammy Sue Peck
Personally I think it’s the right of every individual to follow their own moral codes. I would rather loose my business than to be forced into doing something that goes against my beliefs. That being said, I know that I will be attacked for feeling this way. But I suggest before you attack that you think about this. What if the photographer said if you’re going to force me to do this, what’s to stop someone from forcing you to go straight 🤷♀️ We all were given free choice and when you infringe on one person’s freedom, someone somewhere just might do that to you.
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Paul Edward Nunis
Once you make absolute generalized claims like that, you are by definition saying that underage polygamy, drugs, crime, etc. are all allowed... becuase they fit somebody's 'moral code'. So of course people will disagree. If you've already decided to feel attacked, that is 100% your own doing.
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Diane Minna LaFave
Individually owned businesses should have Right to refuse but Corporations , being an entity , should not. I'm sure they could find a photographer that would .
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Marilyn
Freedom of religion is guaranteed by the US Constitution. I have no conflict providing service to anyone however that is my choice. I can't imagine forcing someone to provide such an important service under duress.
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Rev. MichaelRS
I know this is a big problem because there is a big shortage of gay people in the professional photography business who would be happy for the job.
Same for straight professional photographers that would not care one way or the other.
That this is a "gay rights" issue is ridiculous on the face of it. The photographer in no way tried to interfere with the gay couple getting married nor did he try to stop anyone else from providing services to them.
On the other hand they tried to interfere with his right to practice his religion as he sees fit and to peacefully live his life accordingly by forcing him to participate and memorializing a lifestyle that he solemnly disagrees with.
(And least anybody misunderstand ME; If I were a photographer and the only issue was the couple was gay, I most likely WOULD take the job.)
But let's say the ruling went aganist the guy and he was forced to take such jobs in the future. Would you really trust such an individual to memorialize your special day properly?
I'd be too afraid that if I had somebody there who was forced to be doing that, that a significant number of the pictures, including some key ones, would "accidentally" come out blurry.
And then what do you do? Call everybody back and dress them up for a reshoot?
These kind of petty actions do nothing to provide positive PR for the gay community. They actually have the opposite effect; for people who will never be on board with that community to begin with it only makes them dig their heels and deeper. For people who are on the "Live and Let Live" fence it puts a sour taste in their mouth that keeps them firmly on that fence, if not make them lean toward the more conservative side.
Not only is it counterproductive in those ways, but now you have a court ruling to bolster the position of the photographer and other vendors. So good job.
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Pastor George Day
Rev. MichaelRS, I think your response is very wise. I run a Protestant church online that focuses on the message on Theology of the Body birthed by late John Paul II. The moral issue at stake is far deeper than petty arguments such as this, and it all goes back to the beginning - the original vision of God for human sexuality. In my church we accept everyone, even if they fully live out the LGBT lifestyle. But we are very strong on promoting Theology of the Body as a model for true human sexuality that leads to our full union with Jesus, the Bridegroom of the Church.
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Reverend Kurt
Ridiculous to the extreme, only in America does this stupidity continually rise to notoriety. If one trader refuses a service, find another, there is no moral, legal or ethical obligation in the rest of the world for a trader to be forced to trade, outside of the Mafia of course. I see it not a religious issue, but as the human right of being true to ones' self and values. Kids have it right, if one sets of kids does not play well with the others, they take their toys and leave. they have the choice and maturity, which obviously some adults, do not...
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Pastor George Day
Bingo!
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Tammy Sue Peck
I believe that everyone has a right to choose what they do. If they choose to do the photo shoot or not is nobody’s business but theirs.
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James Riggle-Johnson
It's not just about gay rights. If a stand is not taken now how long before it becomes white only photography? That will stop people in their tracks.
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
It's already happening that "mixed race" couples are being turned away do to religious beliefs of the venue https://time.com/5668444/mississippi-wedding-venue-gay-interracial-marriage/
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Nicholas J Page
Here we go again let's all bash the gay's quite frankly I'm sick of hearing gays can't do this or that Yes it's discrimination but I would say find another photographer preferably one who is gay.Shouldnt be a problem
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Pastor George Day
I totally agree.
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Cheryl Anne Hamm
First, wouldn't you want a photographer that would understand the wishes and needs of the couple. There are lots of talented photographers who would gladly provide their services and provide the couple with professional pictures that perfectly captures their big day. On the other hand I wonder how many of these people claiming religious exemption would provide food and shelter for the homeless, provide aid to the needy, or actually follow the teachings of Jesus if it wasn't convenient or in their interests. Finally, one's salvation is not determined by others sins. You face God for your actions alone. I am an owner of a restaurant and of long guns for personal hunting. I have politely asked everyone with an open carry weapon to please leave it in their vehicle, with the exception of law enforcement and have only lost 1 regular customer.
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Kenneth Edward Stokoe
Does the church preach forgiveness or help to those that feel they can’t speak to anybody except the church. I try to help any person who feels lost inside. At my granddaughters school there are children whom do not know there gender. Some openly show that they prefer there own sex. So at such an early age they sometimes turn to the church. We must learn not to discriminate. It’s a new world out there we have to move with the times.
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Ronaldo
What would have happened if the photographer said, "I don't care if they are same sex or not, I just don't like their attitude towards photographers?" Or he could have said he refused to work with them because they were too demanding. In the past, when America was actually a free country, businesses of all sorts had the right to refuse service to anyone. Now, regardless of attitudes or actions, all someone has to do is claim to be a minority of any kind, and the business has to serve them. I can use that. If any business refuses me service, I'll claim that it's because I'm left-handed and take them to court over it. There are fewer left-handed people in the US than there are Blacks, so protections should apply equally.
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Rev. B
The problem you would have with that, Ronaldo, is that you would have to prove that it was because of your left-handedness. Difficult to do.
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Deborah Jean Howard
I do believe that the church/ leaders. Are the ones Ripping this country apart. People of the same sex have loved one another for centuries. And had to keep it under the low key. Which is wrong who you love is who you love. God made us in his eyes. So that means he also made people of the same sex to love one another
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Cindy L Edgar
Pagan ordained minister in Lawton Oklahoma I am registered with the courthouse I will perform a wedding for same-sex marriages or any marriage as long as it's in Oklahoma and people are talking gay rights or whatever you want to call them they need to leave it alone
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John P Maher
HOW REALLY CHRISTIAN of THE JUDGE, EVEN MORE THE IDEA of THE RULING, A HOLE
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Lionheart
Does the Judge belong to a Christian faith then? I missed seeing that.
🦁❤️
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Rev. B
I did not see a statement of the judge's religion either, but homophobic rulings usually have that "if it walks like a duck" thing going for them.
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David Cox
Comment removed by user.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
People today just don't want to work and use religion as a way of getting out of work. With the high rate of unemployment this photographer is getting a free ride mooching of tax payers collecting unemployment insurance,
What a scam this Christian is trying to pull.
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Stewart
Its more of look at me I such a great christian that I violate the 2nd commandment of Christ to love my neighbor as I love myself . For a religion based on love and tolerance they sure evolved into a bunch of petty snotty little kids my way or no way .
Mostly shes pulling a publicity stunt for name recognition and or praise .
As it says she had not even been asked to do a wedding just filed a suit Probably paid for by some ultra right wing group .
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Douglas Robert Spindler
It's Christians who do things like this which make young people not want to have anything to do with the Christian region. You don't see Muslims or Mormons filing lawsuits, why is it's only Christians who file lawsuits?
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Pastor George Day
Actually, Mormons are Christians :-)
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day Actually, Mormons are Christians :-) Hmmm, are you sure? Some Mormons say they say they Christians so I guess we could say they are. But are you a Mormon or Christian? Mormons believe they will become a God when they die and go to live eternally on their own planet; I've never heard of a Christian believing they will. And do Christians wear magic God blessed under ware which protects them from bullets, stabbings and getting burned in a fire? Mormons do.
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Pastor George Day
@Douglas Robert Spindler, I would agree with you that they are not mainstream or orthodox Christians, but they are Christians by default - viz they are not Buddhists or Muslims. Likewise Orthodox Jews would say that Messianic Jews are not Jews at all, but in fact they too follow all Jewish traditions, and they include Yeshua as fulfillment of those. It's an example, but I hope it makes things clear.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day Just what does it mean to be a Christian? There are over 50,000 "Christian" religions in the world today and to think they began as one. Perfect example of evolution. Another good example of religious evolution are Mormons. It was just 200 years ago the Mormon religion was stated. And in those 200 years that one Mormon religion has evolved into over 100 Mormon religions.
Anyone can call themselves a Christian Jews, Muslim or Mormons if they want. Doesn't really matter what you believe does it?
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Pastor George Day
@Douglas Robert Spindler, you are expressing a biased opinion. By default, Mormons are Christian. You may argue they are nominal ones because they do not share the apostolic kerygma. But that is still your opinion.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day So what does it mean to be a Christian? Mormons believe when you die, you will become a God. That's not what non-Mormon Christians tell me they believe. As a Christian when you die, do you believe you will become a God like Mormons?
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Pastor George Day
Douglas Robert Spindler, read my post above, please.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor George Day Just what does it mean to be a Christian? There are over 50,000 "Christian" religions in the world today and to think they began as one. Perfect example of evolution. Another good example of religious evolution are Mormons. It was just 200 years ago the Mormon religion was stated. And in those 200 years that one Mormon religion has evolved into over 100 Mormon religions.
Anyone can call themselves a Christian Jews, Muslim or Mormons if they want. Doesn't really matter what you believe does it?
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flugo
'pst gorday': What is a Christian? Prove to me Mormons are Christians.
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Lionheart
flugo, prove to us you are.
🦁❤️
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Pastor George Day
flugo, ready post, please., I have no time to waste on endless debaters. My comment is noticeably clear.
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Rev. B
Douglas, I want to agree with you about laziness, but from what I have seen in this country, I am convinced it is absolutely about the homophobia, or at least primarily about it. Why else would someone create a lawsuit before any gay person even asked them to do any work? I figure it is either homophobia or attention-seeking. They are not mutually exclusive. FYI, we have a current unemployment rate of 3.7%. The lowest rate in the past 50 years was 3.5%. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates ever recorded.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. B You know I think you are on to something. Yes we do have the lowest unemployment rates in 50 years. And at the same time the number of Christians in the United States continues to rapidly decline. And if you look at unemployment with the younger generation it's continues just as more and more continue to lose their faith in the Christian religion.
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flugo
Louisville Mayor Fischer: '. . . . . . .appreciate the many ways our LGBTQ+ family contributes to our diverse community.'
Yeah we need more 'contributions' like: monkey pox, AIDS and other STDs, distorted views of family, infantile approach to 'love', predation of kids, making mockery of God's laws, sucking up a disproportionate amount of our health system's resources, blatantly rubbing our noses in their disgusting, depraved lifestyle, etc.
Typical of our many 'spineless, inclusive, toleration' city leaders!
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Colleen McAllister
flugo you really don't get it, do you? LGBTQ+ people did not start or invent any of those diseases. They do not promote distorted views of families. (male & female spousal abuse is not distorted?). They do not act as predators to kids. They do not overuse the Healthcare system. What they did is live normal lives but for their choice of sexual partners. As to mocking God's laws, your post is a good example of that. I pray you experience forgiveness one day.
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Pastor George Day
I love this church because it is so diverse! And everyone has a place here! Thank you for your boldness, Flugo :-) !!
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Nathaniel Robert Hunt
I don't want kids....going to try and force me to? you can't force your religions laws onto me or other free Americans, freedom means I and all others can live our lives the way we chose.
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Rev. B
If you accidentally get someone pregnant, they absolutely will try to force you to have that kid whether the two of you want it or not.
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Theresa Gull
Flugo - wow. You are something else. Educate yourself.
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Pastor George Day
I disagree with Flugo, but I applaud his boldness. He has a right to express his free opinion, which is certainly valuable, and freedom of speech. This Church is great because of that! Bingo!
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Brien
Why is this an issue? If a business, any business does not wish to make money, that is their right. Just as it's the right of the consumer to spend money elsewhere. Now that seems simple. Please stop looking for your 15 minutes of fame and instead use that time for something better like having a good cup 🍵.
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Jason Richard Nardi
Exactly!
To clarify, I do not support discrimination, but I think people are allowed to believe whatever they want so long as it doesn't infringe another's rights or do them harm. If they want to loose out on income, make a poor name for themselves, or even loose the support of their community, let them!
I am posting this to clarify the law.
"Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- the federal law which prohibits discrimination by private businesses which are places of public accommodation -- only prevents businesses from refusing service based on race, color, religion, or national origin.
Title VII of the United States Civil Rights Act of 1964 was put in place to prevent discrimination and harassment in the workplace. It applies to all public and private employers that have 15 or more people on payroll."
Most of the time you cannot sue a small business for civil rights violations, as it mostly applies to government, large business, or public businesses (traded or receiving government funds for something). That being said, there may be state laws that give further protection against discrimination.
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Echo
With so much hate in the world, why do we need another way of imposing more hate?
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Rev. B
We don't need another reason, but there are many people in the world that want more reasons to hate.
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Thomas R King
Part of this is her claim that she has a "Christian belief" which would be violated if she was required to sell her work without discrimination. That isn't true. She has a personal belief; she does not speak for all of Christianity, nor should she be allowed to.
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John Ball
Photographers, bakers, and all the rest should be required to post a sign that says “this is not a business, it is a private club. we only provide services to members of our club.” Prospective customers should have to read and sign a form, request membership, and join before they can buy doughnuts or whatever.
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Donald G Magel
Todays christian are not very Christ like. So sad that their ministers are not either.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Donald G Magel Todays christian are all about the money and controlling other peoples lives.
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Rev. Terence Barry AC. OCC.
In Ireland, the Vast majority of people voted for the right of two people who love one another ( gay or lesbian) the same rights as two people who love one another ( straight) too. There has life long same sex relationships, who harmed nobody , just lived their lives , worked , paid their taxes , contributing to society for generations, I know a gay couple who have been together for 47 years. That's much longer than many straight marriages. Why do religious leaders fear two people loving one another? Surely love is greater than hate! Isn't that what Christ requested, that we love one another, and anyone who says it's an abomination should also know that eating shellfish is an abomination, wearing two different forms of clothing is an abomination, eating meat on Wednesday and Friday is an abomination, ignoring the Sabbath day is an abomination. Who has not at one time in their life ever broken at least one of the Ten Commandments. There is nothing in any religious scriptures condemning Homosexuality, yet for a man to have an affair the ancient sculptures blamed his wife and she was stoned to death for what they believed at the time, she wasn't fulfilling her role as a wife. Lott had sexual relations with his daughters . That's incest , approved by the holy scriptures.. so I think it's time for religious organisations to crawl out of the dark ages and start to open their doors to all Gods Children, I mean God created Gay people as well as straight people, to love .. surely God doesn't make mistakes, ?
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Rev. Terence Barry AC. OCC.
When a cake baking shop refused to bake a wedding cake for a Gay couple , the vast majority of people in the country ( Ireland) were not happy and there was a boycott on the Bakery shop. Now nobody discriminates against two people who wish to marry and live in peace .
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William McMillian
We are forgetting one of the primary concepts of our county: SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
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Margaret Welch
What if the City or State provided for a fee wedding photographers as a means to promote antidiscrimination? This option would allow both straight and LGBTQ folks a neutral bias free option. What a great option for a lesbian couple not having to hire a photographer who holds their nose to do the job; photographer wants the business so tolerates the customer. And straight couples who want to support anti-discrimination culture can hire the City or State photographer.
The City and State option would be a service provided by the government just like the wedding license and certificate is a State and City function. This option would also put some business pressure on the private business photographers who may just start to feel the sting of competition. Peace.
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Rev Wayne Steven
I know this may sound counterintuitive however I think everybody's got everything at hand under control basically private businesses should have the right to refuse any work as long as it's not a general policy or discriminatory against one certain thing so basically I think the situation is well under control or well said for everybody anyway before I get into trouble I will get out of here if I'm not already in trouble🙄
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Rev. B
This is discrimination against one certain thing. Homosexuality. Remember, she filed the lawsuit before anyone asked her to photograph a wedding. She could have filed it 10 years ago - why now? I believe it is because so many courts have been stacked with judges currently ruling that discrimination is ok.
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Randy C Hamilton
Assuming that the lying catholic SCTOUS slime balls will not reverse is extremely naive. Next they will go after the vote for women. Mark my words!
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Lionheart
“Women”? Do you mean “Persons with a womb”, or some other ridiculous term created by the “woke” Democrats?
One, presumably “educated” female, Ketanji Brown Jackson, at a recent government hearing couldn’t describe what a woman was. She/her/he/him/they/it is a Democrat.
Just askin’ for a “female” vagina bearing friend of mine. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Rev. B
Persons with a womb? Does that mean that women would regain their voting privileges by having a hysterectomy? I kid, I kid.
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Pastor George Day
You are referring to the video 'What is a Woman,' right? I watched it.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Let the christian bigots refuse work. Why give work and money to people who hate you? If enough people, LGBTQ+ or not, reefuse to use their services, they'll soon be out of business.
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Earl Wayne Bell
Why should the Photographer be compelled to do anything? What about his rights? I'm sure that there are many photographers who will take the job.
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
The photographer can refuse service on the basis he does not have the capacity to do the job. Capturing the right moments on the camera may very well require different photographic skills for a gay couple.
The photographer has no right to refuse on religious grounds, or moralize to his customers. Just to say "I am not competent for your job".
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Pastor George Day
Very well said!
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Steven Ferrell
I personally believe it is the right of that person to not want to take part in a wedding they feel is against their religious beliefs. It is not our place to judge, that is for God to do.
That being said, I have personally did a lesbian wedding, but that was my choice and it was a dear friend and co-worker. My question to those who feel a person should be FORCED to take part in this is WHY? Why would you want to support that business, why would you want to give them your hard earned money? Would you not rather give your money to someone who agrees with you? Why would you want to help them prosper?? If I don't agree with a certain business, I don't want to give them my money, I would rather take it to a place and support a business who agrees with me.-
Pastor George Day
Like you, I don't endorse same-sex marriage because I embrace traditional teaching. But if I were asked to officiate, I would because I view homosexuality as a fact of life, just like divorce. No one chose it, it just happened. And they too have pastoral needs.
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John D. Partin
Then minister to their pastoral needs, not by going along with their sin, but by leading them out of their sinful thinking and human inclinations. The purpose of the church is to preach against sin and lead people out of sin, but today the world is converting the church, instead of the church converting the world. This state of affairs isn't what thousands of martyrs for the faith gave their lives for and what saints and preachers down through history strove to achieve by their examples and preaching!! Many Christians endured tortures and cruel deaths, but never gave up any part of their faith, but nowadays just the fear of being unpopular and ridiculed by the world is enough to make many people go along with the world and compromise their faith by approving of drag queens in church services and even being "ministers", and gay marriages, and anything else that their masters in the world tell them to go along with. That is a disgrace!! That would rightfully cause us all the greatest shame and knowledge of having betrayed all of our forbears in the faith, if our consciences were what they should be!! You can't say that you "don't endorse same-sex marriage because you embrace traditional teaching" and then turn right around and say that you would officiate at a gay marriage because "homosexuality is a fact of life", since that is hypocrisy and trying to have it both ways!! All of sin is a fact of life, but that doesn't mean that we should just accept it. It doesn't even matter if nobody really chose it or it just happened because it is still wrong and our duty to call it wrong. Crimes of passion and murders also just happen and nobody chose them, but they are still wrong, and so are these other sins.
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Guy Sutherland McLaren
If you disagree with someone and don't want towork for them, it should be your choice, I choose not to work for people often and should I be forced to I will just do a horrible job. Photographers get paid up front, no rule saying the pics have to be good, right?
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Robert Alexander Owens
It's not hate to disagree with any agenda, if you are a Christian and you feel it is against your religious belief to serve LGBT then it's your right, same goes for those that desire to serve them it's your right...as for me I choose not to as I view this life style a sin against God. My choice
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Dmytro Ilchenko
What I can't understand is why any same-sex couple would want to force photographer or florist or baker to serve in their wedding against his will. There are so many persons who would like to do this. I also can't understand why have legal battle when you can use common sense. Imagine, that you are a photographer who oppose same-sex marriage. Why don't you just make bad photos if forced to perform? If you are a baker - why don't you make a cake with wrong amount of sugar? And to anyone. If you can force a singer to perform on the same-sex wedding against his or her will can I force black singer to perform on white supremacist wedding? Can I force a gay baker to bake a cake with text "God hate gays"? When you want to impose your view through law, not discussion, you must remember that such thing will always bite you at some point.
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Canadian Yankee
This is a stupid ruling, because I take photos of someone skydiving does not make me a sky diver or even approve of the sport. The same goes for roller derbies, swiming at the beach or any other activity. If one opens a business with a license from the government they should be open to all customers on an equal basis as long as the activity s within the law.
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Rev. B
Sorry Canadian but that would make sense, which is not how we do things in the US. In the US, people let their imaginary friends tell them who to hate.
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Christopher Wolf
Religion should not be allowed to violate the rights of LGBTQ+ people whom the Supreme Court has ruled have the right to marry. Would people have the right to deny wedding related services to people because they are Black or Jewish? No! And neither should they be permitted to discrinate against gay people.
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Loreen Ewing
If the people don't want to take a couples pitcher at a wedding because the couple is guy. They should not have to but. They can always get some one else too.but it's not right for us to judge the couple for who they love that's not up to us that is between them and God.
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Loreen Ewing
I'ts not for us to judge for who we love that's up to god.and if someone is going to be so pitty and not want to take a pitcher at a wedding because of the couple being guy then the couple should find another photographer to film there wedding.
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Theresa Gull
Personally, I wouldn’t want someone who had such strong opinions about MY lifestyle photographing my wedding.
Is it right? Absolutely not. When you offer services your personal opinion should not be a contributing factor.
It’s sad to watch as our rights as humans are eliminated by people who don’t have a dog in my race.
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Frank Michael Salinger
No one should be forced to do anything that doesn’t cause physical or financial harm to others. Why would anyone want to do business with another that doesn’t want their business? I believe in total freedom for all individuals, not just special groups. We should all be free to be who we want to be and express ourselves as we feel. The gay couple is free to find a photographer they like and the religious photographer should be free to turn customers away for any reason. Had it been an Islamic photographer that refused the gay couple, I’m certain this wouldn’t be an issue. The best way to deal with prejudice, is to not force compliance.
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Rev. Terence Barry AC. OCC.
Muslims in Ireland welcome the Gay Community, have opened their businesses, shops and Islamic centres to the Gay and Lesbian community. The LGBT community in Ireland have always stood alongside the Muslim community, and the Muslims in Ireland feed the homeless population in Dublin. Christians, Muslims, Jews , Pagans all get on together and each get on with the LGBT community. When you have a strong community spirit where no matter who you are or what you do, within the law, you are an important contributor to society.
Jesus said to love one another. Jesus loved all his followers , and when a woman named Mary was about to be stoned to death, Jesus said , Let you who has not sinned, cast the first stone. We are all sinners, some have committed atrocities, ie members of NATO, the Nazis, but Gay people just want to love one another and live in peace together as a recognised married couple..
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Pastor George Day
The biblical story you refer to is John 8:1-11. This is most likely a spurious text because we do not find it in the earliest manuscripts. This passage makes no mention of 'Mary' (whom I suppose you believe to be Mary Magdala). In and of itself, even though it is very beautiful, this passage, being 'apocryphal,' does not bear teaching authority.
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Lionheart
Well, Unicorns are not classed as apocryphal, George, or are they? They are mentioned 9 times in the Bible, so do Christians believe in them?
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Pastor George Day
Lionheart, I will be honest I have never noticed that. I need an update! LOL
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Lionheart
I guess if Christian’s believe in a talking Ass, and a talking Snake, a man walking on water, a man being raised from the dead, …… believing in Unicorns will be a no brainier for them 🤭
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Pastor George Day
I agree totally. There seems to be special prejudice against Christians by default. Anyone has a right to free opinion.
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Paul Edward Nunis
'Discriminate' doesn't have to mean hate. Creative artists for hire such as photographers, expensive cake makers, etc. generally can choose their clients. Courts will have to decide where the line is case by case.
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Frank Michael Salinger
This isn’t Ireland with a relatively small population and even smaller Muslim population. We have more diversity than any country in the world. Freedom applies to all, free to succeed and free to fail. Free to choose who we want to associate with and those we don’t. Forcing those issues have never produced good results and only increases animosity. The USA elitist liberals readily ignore extreme Islamic racism and violence but loudly and hatefully condemns other groups even before it is proven to be true.
If we truly want freedom, unity and diversity for all, we need to educate truthfully not forcefully.
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Jason H Hargreaves
yes...freedom of choice...if they dont want to photograph you, why would you even let them?
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Henry LeRoy Chandler, II
With the ULC having ordained over 20 million ministers world wide, there should be no problem finding a minister to preform a LGBTQ+ wedding. The same goes for other services. Shop around. Someone might have a 1st amendment (freedom of religion) problem with providing a product or service, but then there are others who would love to make that money. Stop complaining and do a little more calling.
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Margaret Welch
What if the City or State provided for a fee wedding photographers as a means to promote antidiscrimination? This option would allow both straight and LGBTQ folks a neutral bias free option. What a great option for a lesbian couple not having to hire a photographer who holds their nose to do the job; photographer wants the business so tolerates the customer. And straight couples who want to support anti-discrimination culture can hire the City or State photographer.
The City and State option would be a service provided by the government just like the wedding license and certificate is a State and City function. This option would also put some business pressure on the private business photographers who may just start to feel the sting of competition. Peace.
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Margaret Welch
What if the City or State provided for a fee wedding photographers as a means to promote antidiscrimination? This option would allow both straight and LGBTQ folks a neutral bias free option. What a great option for a lesbian couple not having to hire a photographer who holds their nose to do the job; photographer wants the business so tolerates the customer. And straight couples who want to support anti-discrimination culture can hire the City or State photographer.
The City and State option would be a service provided by the government just like the wedding license and certificate is a State and City function. This option would also put some business pressure on the private business photographers who may just start to feel the sting of competition. Peace.
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rebadams7
No artist in any medium should be compelled by government or other force to accept a commission.
Play your DNA That’s all
I can’t believe that with all the things going on in the world , People are still going back and forth on Gays right. You can feel free to hate just remember God doesn’t like Ugly.
Beauty and ugly are only skin deep, but religious stupidity goes clean to the bone.
hear hear. Truer words have never been spoken.
Are religious people really the only stupid people in the world or all religious people equally stupid without any intelligent people among them? What about irreligious stupidity and hatefulness, as demonstrated by the Communists, Nazis, leaders of the French Revolution, atheistic abortion industry leaders and "doctors" (who don't meet the standard of actual Hippocratic Oath doctors to cause no harm!), and the general rest of the mass of human beings and all the harm, violence, murder, genocide, purges, racism, lynchings, discrimination, rottenness, and evil that they have caused in the world?!! All of that is stupidity, too, except in the view of some people here and in the world who are part of it and part of the problem, instead of part of the solution! All that I ever read in here are apologies and excuses for irreligious stupidity, while only and narrow-mindedly focusing on religious "stupidity", according to them, or even actual stupidity in the Church, when irreligious stupidity is the majority of the stupidity going on in this world!!! 7 billion openly irreligious or de facto and self-deceived irreligious people against 1 billion only nominally religious people, the overwhelming majority of which are actually irreligious people, too, since the path that leads to life is narrow and few there be who find it, while the road to destruction is wide and many there are who travel on it and by their fruits, you will know them. The Inquisitors, Crusaders, Conquistadors, "holy" warriors, "Catholics" and "Protestants" fighting each other in Northern Ireland, and all their ilk were and are actually irreligious people because they didn't follow Christ's teaching to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others as you would have others do unto you". The overwhelming majority of stupidity in the world is, obviously, irreligious stupidity!! So, don't keep lying to yourselves that stupidity is only found among religious people!
Like Lionheart, I don’t read your long posts. My comment was a jest, as Ai rarely refer to religious people as stupid. Stupid is a lack of ability to learn, most people aren’t. They are more than likely lazy, just accepting the beliefs of mommy, daddy and Uncle Billy Joe. Often they are just willfully ignorant, the worst kind of ignorant. But they are always religiously delusional, that’s the main ticket
But ‘Beauty and ugly are only skin deep, but religious delusions, laziness and willful ignorance goes clean to the bone.’ loses its zing.
Also, like Lionheart I don’t read your trite diatribes. Skim them sometimes, and usually respond with the intention of wasting your time because ANYTHING an atheist says will get a 2000+ word sermon.
God? There’s actually a real god that cares? I didn’t know that. Who is it?
Just askin’ for a friend of mine that has a little child dying of cancer 🤷🏼
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You can't account for many people's being healed from diseases or recovering from injuries after prayers have been said for them, if, according to you, there is no God answering prayers or relationship between prayers and their being answered. Except for the evasion of saying "it's just coincidence", which is stretching it unrealistically and unreasonably to try to apply that to all of the examples of such healing and recovery. God doesn't heal all diseases or bring people to recovery from all injuries because some of these things keep us relying on Him, which instantaneous help and delivery from all problems wouldn't do and would make us complacent and take it for granted. The sun is shining, even when we don't see it, behind clouds or at night elsewhere in the world. Instead of expecting God to jump through hoops and perform tricks for us before we will believe in Him, which we don't even ask of people before we believe in them.
I normally have a practice of not answering your ridiculous comments, but in this case you need to know that there have been studies done on the efficacy of prayer.
Empirical research shows that prayer, and intercessory prayer, have no discernible effects whatsoever. You will find that speaking to a wall, floor, or ceiling, or crossing your fingers, or wishing for the best, or carrying a rabbits foot, are all as successful as one another, and that is….zero effect.
You can read it for yourself here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer
Please get well, John.
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Tell those people who have prayed for recovery from illnesses or injuries for their loved ones or friends and had them recover that "there is no power in prayer or God to answer any prayers", so that they can laugh at you to your face and ridicule your stupid easily disproven statement! You can get any research to give you the result that you want it to give you and so "empirical research" will "prove" to you that there are "no discernable effects whatsoever from prayer" and will ignore all of these people above just mentioned, if that is what you want it to say and the only answer that you will accept as "scientific". The Communists and Nazis and other anti-God people didn't arrive at their conclusions through actually scientific thinking, but only by only accepting the ideas that fit their pre-conceived views of "scientific" and "truth", as you and other atheists and ungodly people are doing today. Seek and you will find.....whatever it is that you are seeking and will accept as "truth". Don't be fooled by surveys that arrive at the conclusions that you want them to arrive at, instead of looking at the actual evidence of the efficacy of prayers in the world, as mentioned above. Some people, such as yourself, think that "prayers are useless" because God won't instantaneously give them or you what they or you are asking for and withholds some goods in His far greater wisdom than yours for your own good. Children might as well think that their parents "don't really exist" when they don't get everything that they want instantaneously from them, since that is the same "reasoning" that you and other people indulge in when it comes to prayers to God!! You and all atheists are illogical people!!
Try explaining your illogical statement to those millions of people that prayed to save their lives waiting in line during the holocaust. Oh….but wait…..you can’t. They all died.
John, you are so gullible, it’s unbelievable. You of course will believe that anyone that goes into remission is all your gods work, even if the people are non-believers and didn’t pray.
If you honestly believe your BS, please go to cancer children's hospital wards, say your prayers for them, and let’s see how many your pathetic god heals. Please write back and let us all know on here in this blog how successful you were. Until then, your words will remain as usual…….BS.
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Some prayers for deliverance from the Holocaust were answered because there were people who escaped being exterminated, through Christian prayers and actions, without which none of them or far less of them would have been saved, but you don't even give Christians any credit for how much they helped to save the Jews and others from that atrocity. Oskar Schindler, Pius Xii, Corrie Ten Boom, and many other Christians helped to save Jews from the Holocaust and they did so because of and by their prayers and Christian faith, which you see "no value" in, despite all the good, hospitals, Holocaust rescuing, homeless shelters and care, love and forgiveness and concern for pregnant women and offering them alternatives to abortion and care for their unborn children, and many other good things that they have done, and which you want to throw away because "society would be better off without it", according to you!! You talk about concern for children with cancer. St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital is all about concern for and cures for children with cancer, and it was started by Danny Thomas because of his prayer and promise to God to start that, which he wouldn't have done if nobody ever prayed, as you believe that they shouldn't. How many other good things for the world began through prayer, such as the Red Cross, the Salvation Army and its care for the homeless and help to people during natural catastrophes with food and housing, and Joyce Meyer Ministries and others helping people in need in foreign countries and here. What have you atheists ever done to the world, except the Nazi Holocaust and Communist purges and repressions and other dictatorships and ungodly practices and teachings, which we really would be better off without!!! To expect or ask that God cure all evils and sicknesses in the world while people continue on in their defiance of God and sinning and that there should be no consequences to all of that is trying to have your cake and eat it, too, and is unrealistic and unreasonable!! If people recover from problems even when they didn't pray, that doesn't mean that other people weren't praying or, as usual, didn't you read that part? So-called "Christians" have done much evil in the world, but why should they be indiscriminately lumped in with actual Christians who have done very much good in the world, as mentioned above. Read those books that I mentioned in my post below and see how much they blow your atheism out of the water and if you can answer their objections to atheism, if you aren't too afraid to do so
Like I said, John, get back with me when your prayers, and everyone else’s prayers, have healed all the little children's cancer wards as a result of your fervent prayers. Until then, your silly statements will remain as pure bovine manure.
I’m waiting…..yawn 🥱
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And as I told you above, God isn't going to remove all cancer and other evils in the world as long as you and other people are going on with your sinning and disobedience to God, which brings all these evils down upon the world and is your and other atheists trying to have it both ways and have your cake and eat it, too. God isn't going to take away our free will, which is the only way that all evils could be eliminated from the world (which wouldn't even be able to see the difference between good and evil, even less than they can now!!) and enables us to do good as well as evil, since then doing good wouldn't be our personal choice and God wants us to choose to do good and avoid evil. Our disobedience to God affects the natural order, too, and brought sickness, cancer, and death into the world, even if you refuse to accept or understand that. But God can bring good even out of evil, as with the State of Israel resulting from the Holocaust and St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital resulting from children's having cancer in the world, and wants all of us to participate in the world's healing and salvation, and not just depend on God to do everything for us. You will never even try to understand this because you are a very dishonest and self-centered person, but it is still the truth. This is just another one of your evasions of answering the objections to atheism presented in the books that I told you about, which you are too cowardly to even get, read, and fairly consider, since they blow atheism out of the water!!! Go ahead and lie to yourself and play all of these games with yourself that you want and anyone else that you can get to go along with you, but you are only fooling yourself and them with that because the rest of us are wise to you and see the truth about you, which you refuse to or can't anymore see!! We're waiting for you to come out of all that....yawn, but not hopefully at all!!
Still waiting, John. 🥱
The last time I checked, little children are still dying of cancer. 🙄
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Still not getting and reading all those books that I told you about, right, because you are too afraid to do so, obviously!! I and everyone else here are still waiting for you to read the explanation for cancer still going on in the world, as stated to you several times already (that is, cancer and other evils' going to continue as long as people go on sinning, which keeps all of these evils going, too), instead of your refusing to read and understand that and asking the same STUPID!!!! question every time that you post in here, as though you are learning disabled or very selective and prejudicial in what you read and consider in anyone's post. Sinning keeps cancer and other evils in the world, and not until all the sinning stops, since it affects the natural order, is all the cancer going to stop in the world. Sin and disobedience to God brought death, disease, cancer, misery, injury, racism, genocide, and all other evils into the world because before our fall into sin, none of these things existed. God would be fighting a losing battle curing all cases of cancer as long as the root cause of cancer and other evils (sin) goes on in the world because people would keep digging themselves deeper into the same hole and wouldn't be helped, and so God does all that He can for us and leads people to help other people with treating cases of cancer and trying to find cures for it and miraculously cures some cases of it because of people's prayers, since they won't give up everywhere the cause of it. What part of that can't you understand?!! SINNING KEEPS CANCER IN THE WORLD!!!! Tattoo that on your forehead or wherever else that you will see it every day or put up notes saying that on your refrigerator and all over your house, so that you will see it constantly and will stop asking the same STUPID!!! question all the time in every post here!! Of course, this has been another big waste of time telling you this again because you are still learning disabled and only see and read and understand what you want, just as it was for Jesus to talk to the Pharisees because they wouldn't listen, either, but I can only tell you the truth and do my part, and not make you listen to or accept or understand it.
I’ll read your books, John, when I see hospitals being emptied as a result of talking to a wall, floor, or ceiling.
Still waiting 🥱
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Once again, you're not understanding or even reading my posts to you (and so how much less would you be able to or willing to read any of the books that I told you about?) because I have already told you repeatedly why all hospital beds aren't emptied of cancer patients and all evils eliminated from the world and, though it will be more pouring water over a rock and wasting more words on you that you are incapable of and unwilling to understand, here goes again. God isn't going to eliminate all consequences from our sinning against and ignoring Him and going our own way, so that we can continue on in our sins and there won't be any consequences for that in cancer, death, war, and all other evils because that isn't realistic or the way that life works. You believe that we should live in a consequence free universe and that nothing that we ever do should have any negative consequences and that we should be able to sin as much as we please and have no problems or penalties for doing so, but that isn't realistic or reasonable at all. Cancer for innocent children is one of those penalties for our going our own way and which our sins bring upon them because penalties for sins extend beyond those who are directly committing those sins and the whole human race became subject to those penalties from the first fall into sin. Innocent people are killed during war and that is as wrong as innocent children getting and dying from cancer, but that is the penalty for our sins. Sin is wrong and can't help but to inflict more wrong on children and innocent people during war and others not directly doing those sins, since the natural order is corrupted and distorted by our sins. God respects our free will enough to let us go our own way into sin and into Hell when we die and to live without God being important or even existing, according to us, in our lives, but there is a price for our making that decision, for ourselves and everyone else!! We can have it our way, but at a cost. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is the way of death". "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". If you really want all cancer wards in hospitals to be emptied of patients because they are all cured, all that you have to do is get everyone everywhere to stop sinning forever and that will happen, but don't expect God to deliver all cancer patients and everyone else from the consequences of the sins that we have chosen over Him as long as we all continue to do so and let us have only good and no evils while doing so and have it both ways because that is never going to happen. In short, if you make your bed, you have to lie in it, no matter how poorly it is made!! We are all waiting for you to ever get this!! This has been more casting pearls in front of pigs trying to explain this to you again, but there you go and so now reply back that you still don't understand it (and never will) because you refuse to do so!!! Get those books and read and try to understand them, if you can ever open your mind enough to do so, which you can't, and don't make God's removing cancer and all evils from the world while we go right along committing evils the requirement for your getting those books, since that isn't ever going to happen!!!
Once again, John, children are still dying of cancer. Have you tried praying for them yet, John.
What are you waiting for? You’re afraid to admit that prayer doesn’t work, and so you keep trying to justify your mythical gods inaction. How pathetic your beliefs are.
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You are like a 10 year old or less kid, who is told repeatedly why something can't happen or that we haven't arrived at our destination yet, and still keeps asking "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" or "Why can't it happen?", which has already been explained exhaustively to them!! Likewise, it has been explained exhaustively to you why God isn't curing all cases of cancer in children (because we keep going on in our sins and going our own way, which is what is bringing cancer on the children, and so we are responsible for cancer in children, not God, and could cure all children from cancer tomorrow, if we all stopped sinning against God and repented), and still you keep childishly asking "Why doesn't God cure all cases of cancer in children?". An actual mature adult can understand and accept a reasonable explanation, to all reasonable, not indoctrinated and prejudicial, adults when it is given to them, and so that proves that you aren't a mature adult and it is pointless giving reasonable explanations to you because you aren't mature enough to understand them. I'm talking to a little kid when I'm talking to you, which is a big waste of time!! It has been told to you that there have been recoveries from sickness and injury through prayers for them, and you can look these up for yourself under "miracles obtained through prayers" or "miraculous cures", far bigger than just remissions from cancer and documented, on Google, but you won't look them up or your preconceived views and bigotry against God, Christianity, prayers, and miracles will keep them from meaning or proving anything to you, even if you do. None are so blind as those who refuse to see!! There is no shortage of proof that prayers do work, but you have to actually open your eyes, heart, and mind in order to see and accept them, which is impossible for you. How pathetic and desperately self-blinding your unbelief is!! There is no shortage of evidence for God's existence, but none of that does you any good because you aren't able to open your mind, heart, and eyes to see and accept them, which your bigotry keeps you from doing!! You and other atheists aren't able to make even a car drive itself across country without its being remote controlled or computer programmed, which should be happening all the time for every car, if the entire unthinking universe drives and regulates itself without a Mind behind it, as you believe. Logically, what you can't get even a car here on Earth to do, you can forget all about the whole rest of the universe doing, which proves that there is a Mind behind the universe. Or else show me the example of the self-driving car!! You keep trying to "justify" your myth of God's being "mythical" by ignoring all the evidence that God isn't mythical and narrow-mindedly and self-indoctrinatedly blocking all of that out of your mind, as all atheists have to do, in order to maintain their atheism and never open their eyes to the truth and light of God all around them!! There are many people, such as yourself, who only grow up in their bodies, but never grow up in their maturity and comprehension, and it is a big waste of time to try explaining God to them or you, since you lack the necessary adult understanding to enable you to see and accept the explanation. Prayers work, as you could easily prove to yourself, if you were able to do it, which you aren't, but could become, if you opened yourself to it Until then, go on in your delusion that there is nothing beyond what we can detect with our physical senses, that answers to prayer happen without any Power making them happen, and that you and man are the "supreme intellect in the universe", and be as happy as you can be in your delusion.
Sadly, John, some kids will never reach the age of being 10 years old, so I’m speaking for them.
They’re still dying, John. Have you been praying for them yet? Obviously not! What are you scared of, John? Could it be you know your prayers won’t work? If you are…..clearly they’re not working. Sorry about that, John, but what did you really expect?
Are we there yet, John? Sadly, many little children won’t be. You know that……right, John?
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You are only interested in being evasive and playing games in here and probably in the rest of your "life", too, and "answering" my post about your immaturity with more talk about children's getting cancer, which has already been more than satisfactorily answered as to the cause for that for all reasonable and honest people here and in the world (our sins), and only "not answered" to all dishonest and game playing people, such as yourself!!! More proof of your immaturity!! You don't care anything about children's getting and dying from cancer, but only hide behind and use that matter in order to continue to attack Christianity and prayers as your cynical ploy and tactic!! You have already had the explanation for not all children's being cured from cancer fully explained to you and told where to find examples of prayers' working, but refuse to even go and look at that evidence, and just go on with your tactic here, even though you know yourself that there is a reason why those cases go on (our sins) and God won't clean up our mess and let us go on making and wallowing in our mess without any consequences for any of that!! That proves you to be very pretentious, insincere, dishonest, game playing, and cynical, which makes it a waste of my time talking to you until you ever become honest, which will never happen!! No doubt, you don't really care about anyone other than yourself!! Not about children with cancer, unborn children being aborted, innocent people who have died in wars or victims of the Holocaust, people at the Southern border who need asylum here from gangs and violence in their countries (as you have admitted many times here and urged them to be sent back to those countries), or anyone else, but, again, put up a front and pretense of "caring about children with cancer" in order to attack Christianity, prayers, God, and miracles from behind it, since they don't jump through your hoops fast enough or at all or ask how high when you say "jump" to suit you!! If you really cared about children having cancer, you would actually be doing something to fight the cause of it and trying to get people to stop sinning, and stop blaming God for something that we are causing and expecting Him to clean up our mess while we go on making that mess and expecting no consequences from our doing so, but you don't really care about that and just go on with your front and tactic here. No doubt, it has taken years and decades to make you as cynical, indifferent to others, sick, and game playing as you are today, and all of that isn't going to be cleaned by any posts back and forth between you and I or with any other people here, but will take you years and decades in psychotherapy and even going to confession to clear all of that up, if it even can be at all, which is very doubtful. You are certainly a hopeless case, but anything less than psychotherapy and confession for years and decades for you is an exercise in futility!! Go play with other people and waste their time with all of your games, since I'm only interested in actual responsiveness to my posts, not such evasiveness as yours!! Get some serious help for your very serious problems and get better, if you possibly can!!!
I don’t fully read your lonnnnng posts because they aren’t worth it. I wonder who does? 🤔
Anyway, if anything is truly being evasive it’s your deity not listening to your prayers to heal little children. Is that because it doesn’t exist 🤪
Please get well from your idiotic delusions .
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You don't read my posts because you're afraid that they will get through to you and shake you out of your idiotic atheism and just make up this "they are too long to read" evasion, since evading is all that you ever do, to cover up that real reason. That explains why you aren't reading those books: because they are even more beyond your very limited "comprehension" and you know that they would blow your atheism out of the water and you're too afraid to read them and take that chance!! You would just play more games with them and be evasive, the same as you are in here and out in the rest of your world, too. Your bigotry against God, Christianity, prayers, and miracles would also keep you from really understanding and considering them, anyway. You're also too afraid to read those articles in Google that show that prayers do work and there are recoveries from illnesses and injuries through prayers and God is listening to our prayers. Keeping your eyes and mind closed is the only way that any atheists can maintain their atheism because if they or you ever really opened your eyes and minds and looked at and considered the actual efficacy of prayers in the world and evidence for God's existence, all of your atheism would go flying out the window and it would become non-existent!!! So, you just say "there is no evidence" without even looking at the evidence, in order to keep yourself in blindness and darkness!! Something, such as atheism, that can only be maintained through keeping your eyes and mind closed isn't worth the trouble of having, anyway. You couldn't walk or drive around in even this physical world with your eyes closed and ears stopped up all the time without walking in front of or being hit in your car by other cars or having all kinds of other problems and keeping your eyes, ears, and mind closed doesn't work any better in the spiritual life and will lead you into all kinds of problems and wrong conclusions!!! You have far less efficacy and impact in the world than God and prayers do. So, we might as well say that you don't really exist, by your own standards, since there is far less evidence of your existence than there is of God's existence!! Time itself isn't divided into before and after your birth, as it is for before and after Christ's birth, and you didn't change the world and never will change the world as much as Jesus Christ has changed the world, and there aren't examples of miracles through invoking your name as there are miracles through invoking the name of Jesus Christ, which you are too afraid to look up in Google and online. People's hearts haven't been changed and demons driven out through calling upon you, but only by calling upon Christ. So, you must really be imaginary and a myth!! Only those who are afraid of the truth, such as yourself, say that any reading of the truth is "too long to read", which proves that you are afraid of the truth, as were the Communists and the leaders of the French Revolution. That's why they forbid the teaching of Christianity in their regimes, so that they wouldn't have to hear and be exposed to the truth. That is why you don't want to read it here because it would shake up your little world!! Too much truth for you is your problem!!'
l read your posts, Lionheart, and l read John’s. Why bad things happen to innocent people is a huge question, especially if one considers whether or not God exists, and if so, how or why not does God relate or respond to suffering. l would appreciate seriously considered replies, without the personal insults, from both of you. l’m here to learn from you and others.
John, doesn’t have any answers, Charles, as to why a “God”, whatever that really is, allows little children to suffer. For me, the obvious answer is that John’s god, or any of the others, classed as being omnipotent, don’t exist. He will give some lame reason there is a god because he’s an apologist. That’s what they do because they don’t like to think they’ve been duped all these years as a result of their real deep indoctrination.
The difference between him and me is that I’m prepared to be proved wrong. He isn’t.
All his god needs to do is:
1) Show up some time for real, to prove all other gods wrong.
2) Show up and heal those who are sick and suffering.
We all pretty much know that this isn’t going to happen, don’t we, Charles. It really would be nice if it did happen, and that would prove me wrong, and John would love that, and me too, because it would mean children would no longer hurt, and they could live a life of love. Sadly, history shows us it’s just not going to happen. John will try and throw in some weak argument to try and defend his mythical gods inaction. I find that to be extremely sad.
Take care, and thank you for your question. 🤗
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Don't keep on lying that I have never explained to you why God doesn't just instantaneously eliminate all disease, cancer, war, and other problems from the world when I have explained that to you over and over and over again endlessly, but you have just refused to read and consider it!! Your not reading and considering the reason why God doesn't do that isn't the same thing at all as its never having been explained to you!!! Stop your lying to Charles here and trying to present yourself to him as "the reasonable person here", which you know as well as I and everyone reading your posts here knows is a LIE!!! Once again, for Charles and not uselessly for a bigot like you, God isn't going to eliminate all the consequences of our sinning against Him and going our own way, resulting in children's having cancer and other problems, so that we can have our cake and eat it, too, of sinning as much as we like, while having no consequences from that, since that is unrealistic and unreasonable!!! The order and synchronization, calibration, and maintenance of the universe can't be the work of a mindless universe, but only of a mind behind the universe, not a myth. If the whole universe really works the way that you say that it does, without any mind behind it at all, it shouldn't be any problem for you to give us all a very small demonstration and evidence of that by showing us a totally self-driving and self-maintaining car. So, what's the hold up with showing us that evidence? What you can't even get a car here on Earth to do, you can forget all about the whole rest of the universe doing. So, there must be a mind behind the universe doing for it what it can't do for itself!! Put up or shut up and show us the self-driving car or admit that you are wrong about there being no mind behind the universe because it's either one or the other!! That's not a weak argument, but the strongest of arguments, which you can't refute, or else show us the refutation of it!! God has healed some children and others from cancer and other problems, which you can't refute, either, but only, as you do with all other evidence against your atheism and those books that I mentioned to you, refuse to even consider or look at or read, and keeping your eyes and mind tightly closed are your version of "refuting them and proving them wrong"!! This is for Charles, anyway, and is more than enough time and effort wasted on you again!!! Charles, let me know if you still have any questions and I'll try to answer them.
Dear Charles Thomas Norkus, the answer to your question of why bad things happen to good people is because the human race's disobedience to God and rejection of God and going our own way bring bad consequences on good people, along with the bad, who even, sometimes, seem to avoid any bad consequences, in this life, anyway, but not in the next. God isn't going to eliminate all consequences of our sinning against Him and going our own way, and let us have our cake and eat it, too, of sinning as much as we like, while having no consequences from our doing that. Jesus Christ himself insulted the scribes and Pharisees by calling them whited sepulchres and a brood of vipers, as well as insulting the moneychangers in the temple, not out of maliciousness, but to wake them up, and I couldn't be more loving toward anyone than Jesus was if I tried and don't have to try. I hope that this has been instructive to you and will try to explain further to you whatever else you are still unclear about.
John D. Partin, I know Lionheart has been disrespectful to you, and I do not excuse him, for that, but I know he is an honest man, from the little I have come to know him here and is seeking the truth. I do believe, as you may have tried to express, that he is using the wrong approach when it comes to faith. But he used to be a church minister, so he understands Christianity from his side of the fence. He is simply trying to adopt the Agnostic approach now. This might explain his argumentations and questions about scientific evidence.
Pastor George Day, I appreciate your efforts to meditate between him and me and to be a peacemaker, since Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God". Yet, there is wrong peacemaking and people that there can't be any real peace between, as long as they are completely divergent from each other without any common ground for a meeting of their minds upon, as Neville Chamberlain's attempts at "peacemaking" with Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany were wrong and even Jesus couldn't be at peace with the scribes and Pharisees as long as they kept their hard hearts and only letter of the law thinking or with the moneychangers in the temple as long as they kept on buying and selling in the temple and making a house of prayer into a den of thieves. There can only be a false "peace" between people who are so totally divergent as that and between those who hold to the truth and those who follow lies, hate, unforgiveness, and disobedience to God. "Peace at any price", at the price of saying there is no truth, except what everyone makes up for himself or herself, just so that we can all get along together, isn't any peace or truth at all. You and I will just have to agree to disagree that he is an honest man because I don't see his claim not to see any mind behind the universe as being honest at all, since if there isn't any mind behind the universe, it simply couldn't do for itself things, such as synchronization, calibration, coordination, and maintenance, which require intelligence on the cosmic scale infinitely more than they do here on Earth. He only has to show me one example of a mindless thing running and maintaining itself, such as a car driving itself around and filling its tank with gas and getting itself oil changes and tire changes and other maintenance to prove to me that mindless things can perform intelligent actions, and yet he keeps refusing to come up with even that one example, for some not so mysterious reason (because it can't happen!!) which should be simplicity itself, if the universe works the way that he says that it does. What can't even happen for a car here on Earth can be forgotten all about for the entire rest of the universe!! His being a minister at one time doesn't mean that he ever understood Christianity, since there are other ex-ministers who are now involved in all sorts of sinning and wrongdoing, but wouldn't be if they had ever really understood Christianity. And Judas Iscariot was officially one of Jesus' disciples', but betrayed him, which he wouldn't have done if he had ever really understood Jesus and his teaching. The Pharisees were supposedly "priests" and yet were still hard-hearted, and so proved themselves not to be really priests, and that goes for many "priests" and "ministers" today, who are such in name only, who deny the power of God, while claiming to be "His followers and teachers", but are wolves in sheep's clothing and Satan disguised as an angel of light. So, that means nothing for him, either, that he was a "minister". Agnostic means fencesitter and trying to have it both ways and not committing to either side. Either there is a God or there isn't, and if there isn't, then explain why there is any intelligence displayed in the universe, which can't happen without any mind behind it, from just a mindless universe. But don't say that there isn't enough evidence to tell if there is a God, which is just a cop out and just not wanting to go as far as actually calling yourself an atheist, while still basically denying His existence. "Woe unto those who cry 'Peace, peace' when there is no peace". Elijah also wasn't and couldn't be at peace with the priests of Baal, but said "If Baal is God, follow him, but if God is God, follow Him", and proceeded to bring down fire from heaven to show them which was truly God, and wiped out the priests of Baal. That was his peacemaking with them and the only peacemaking with many other people possible, too. If he is so into science and thinks that a godless universe is scientific, then let him prove how a godless universe still operates as though it had a mind behind it scientifically, which a self-driving car would be an excellent place to start with. The truth isn't just whatever anyone says that it is because then there is no truth at all!! There can be peace between him and me and between atheists and Christians when they come to the truth, and not by our falsely compromising with them. "Peace on Earth, to men of good will".
They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, 'Peace, peace', when there is no peace. (Jeremiah 6:14) So, many people here and in the world lightly (superficially) "heal" people's wounds with covering over everything with phony "peace" when there is no peace, instead of with the true peace of Christ
Lionheart, I do not think you are being respectful to John. You certainly know better than that. I think in his own way, John has gone out of his way and taken a great deal of effort to explain his reasons for trusting God. You should at least acknowledge that.
I acknowledge, George, that he goes out if his way, but his way is to trust a fictitious deity, of which we have no evidence it exists, and so it remains fictitious, and he has no way of proving its existence, just like yourself.
It’s akin to me trusting in Fairies. Do you see how silly that sounds……hopefully?
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The universe is the evidence of God's existence, which you can't explain realistically or reasonably any other way than by admitting that there is a Mind behind the universe. Or else show us the self-driving car. I'm not going through the whole post above again and wasting more time on you!! Read the post above.
How do you know the universe is not the evidence of a fairies existence? Or could it be the evidence of the god Dionysus, or some other god that mankind has created, just like mankind, created your God?
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Your question is stupid, as usual, and just an unsuccessful attempt at a distraction from admitting that God is the obvious Creator of the universe, since fairies, Dionysus, and man are contingent and created beings, and so weren't here before the universe was created to be able to create it themselves and couldn't have been here before they were here, which is illogical!! That is just showing your desperation to toss anything out there to avoid having to admit the truth that God created the universe. This is for Pastor George Day and Charles Thomas Norkus again, since you are a hopeless bigot against God and too indoctrinated in your atheism and so not sane or reasonable enough to understand and agree with this obvious truth!! Friedrich Nietzsche was driven insane by his atheism and we can all see that it has done the same thing to you!! Go and play with yourself much more vigorously and try to clean those fluids out of your "brain" that have backed up into it, as much as possible!!
Everything about the creation of the universe boils down to our keeping asking the question "what was there before that?" over and over again until we come to the last what there was before that, that couldn't not exist and is necessary existence and the Ground of all being, in order for anything else to exist at all, and that is what we call God. Matter and atoms don't meet that criterion of existing eternally back in time because they are material objects and, even if they did meet the criterion, don't have any consciousness, and so can't coordinate, calibrate, synchronize, and maintain the universe, which requires a supremely intelligent Being to do (that is, God). Fairies, Dionysus, and man don't meet that criterion, since they weren't here before the universe began and before they were even created or here. So, that only leaves God as the reason for the existence of the universe, for all reasonable, honest, and logical people, which leaves you out!!! This is still for Pastor George Day and Charles Thomas Norkus, since you are a hopeless bigot and lost cause!! Just go back to playing with yourself and get that stuff that has backed up into your "brain" out, as much as possible!!
Still no evidence yet John that your god is real just because there’s a universe. Still grasping at straws, John? How do you know your god did it, and not another god? Where’s your evidence your god did it? Where’s your evidence any god did it.
By the way, children are still suffering? What a pathetic God it is that you revere, and that you’ve convinced yourself it’s listening when you chat to it. Does it speak back to you, John? Are you hearing voices in your head? Try asking it for a better reply to convince me. Why am I thinking that’s not going to happen? 🤣
What’s it like being an apologist for your mythical god?
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The proof that the mindless universe didn't create itself (a logical impossibility, since it couldn't be here before it was here to create itself, and wouldn't need creation if it was already here, which it did need!!) is that you can't even get a mindless car to do anything for itself or drive itself around. We are all still waiting for your example of that self-driving car. What even a car can't do (for the 10,000th time!!), you can forget all about the whole rest of the universe doing, and so there had to be a Mind behind the universe to do for it what it couldn't do itself, which is obvious to all reasonable and honest people!!! I have explained to you to distraction that God won't eliminate all consequences of our sinning against Him and rejection of Him, but you just refuse to even consider that, which is logical to all reasonable people, and consider your not considering it the same as its never having been explained to you, which it clearly isn't!! You couldn't do better than God can do and would do very much worse than God is doing if you were in God's place about healing all cancerous children, since you don't even help all the people that you have in your life right now!!! So, don't give us that BS that you would heal all cancerous children, which your own wife and family know is a LIE!!!! about you. You don't even answer the people that talk to you here in this blog or in your life there, but only give evasions and game playing. What a pathetic excuse for a "man" that you are!! How do your wife and family actually feel about being your apologists?!! Do your voices in your head convince you that you are "right" and keep lying to you every moment of every day?!! God doesn't have to prove Himself to you, since you have closed your mind and eyes and heart to all proof of Him and so go on in your blindness, bigotry, and hatefulness, and I will go on believing in the truth and love of God, which everyone who has opened their mind and eyes and heart can see and know. The voice of God that you have closed your ears and mind to hearing won't be heard by you, which doesn't prove that God isn't real, since He is, but only that you won't hear what you have blocked out of your hearing. If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as at Meribah.
Who created your mythical God, John. Another mythical God, and who created that one?
Please wake up and get well.
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God didn't need to be created because He is necessary existence and couldn't not exist and is the Ground of being without which nothing else that exists could exist. He is the first "what was there before that", since otherwise there is no reason for anything else to exist and there is just endless retrocedent what was there before that, which is illogical. You wake up and get well and accept that reality and logic.
I get it, John. Your god didn’t need to be created, but the Universe did. What a cop-out! If you think that’s logical, may your god help you 😂😂😂😂
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The universe is a materialistic and, therefore, contingent and created thing, since it can't create itself, being a mindless thing, and so needs a non-contingent Creator to create it. Otherwise, he would be in the same fix as the universe and could no more come up with himself in order to create the universe than the universe could come up with itself. That isn't a cop out, but just obvious logic, to all people who are actually capable of understanding logic, which leaves you way out, as usual, in left field in your delusions there!! An endless stream of "creators of one god before another" stretching back into the past doesn't solve the problem of the existence of the universe, but just keeps pushing it back and would leave us without any universe, if it were true, which it couldn't possibly be!! Since there is a universe, we know that nobody created God and that He is the First Cause, making all other existence possible. If you really"think" that contingent and dependent things can do anything for themselves, try having a pile of metal assemble itself into a car without any people working on it or a car drive itself around the country without a driver behind the wheel, as I have asked you to show us before, or even have your breakfast cereal pour itself into your bowl and the milk pour itself on your cereal and the spoon raise the cereal up to your mouth without your or anyone's touching the spoon or any of ten million other examples, and let us know how that works out for you. You see, you don't even practice or believe in contingent things doing anything for themselves in your own life, and yet "think" that the whole contingent universe is doing anything for itself, anymore than your car or a pile of metal or your cereal could!! How illogical you are and desperate to avoid facing the truth of God's existence, no matter how stupid and silly it makes you!!!!
I can see, as can everyone else by the ridiculous length of your replies to everyone, that you are trying to convince yourself that what you say is true, even though you still have no evidence, and children are still dying in hospital.
Are you still hearing voices in your head, John, from talking to the ceiling? Please get help.
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Obviously, everyone else can't see that "I'm trying to convince myself" by the length of my posts because nobody else is complaining about it, except you, and nobody else has any problem reading something longer than "if", as you do,. because of your 2nd grade reading level! The whole universe isn't the same as no evidence for God's existence, even if you have illogically convinced yourself that "it is". Once again, some children and others are being healed from cancer by prayers, which you are too cowardly and bigoted to look up online, but God won't eliminate all consequences of our sinning against Him and rejection of Him. Are you still listening to those insane voices in your head? Obviously so, from your irrational statements here.
Nope! Children’s hospitals are still open, John. Could you try and get your god to do a bit better, or is he too busy helping soccer players score goals in the World Cup? I see those players look up to the sky to thank their god when they score. Perhaps that god they worship could do a better job of emptying hospitals than the one you revere, if he’s truly helping them score goals.🤷🏼
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There are many very excellent books that refute atheism thoroughly, if you aren't too afraid of a non-onesided discussion and challenging your beliefs or unbelief or fairly considering objections to atheism to even read them. Among these books are (1) Is Atheism Dead? by Eric Metaxas, (2) Stealing From God by Frank Turek, (3) One Less God Than You by John DeRosa, (4) Confessions of a French Atheist by Guillaume Bignon, (5) Answering Atheism (How To Make The Case For God With Logic and Charity) by Trent Horn, and (6) Atheism on Trial (A Lawyer Examines The Case For Unbelief) by W. Mark Lanier. They are all available on Amazon and other book outlets. If you aren't too afraid to even read or fairly consider these books and others disproving atheism or defending Christ and Christianity or to reply to me after you do, I'll be hearing you whistling a very different tune afterwards soon. You atheists say that you believe in cause and effect for everything, except when it comes to the biggest effect of all, which is the universe itself, and then all of a sudden, that effect, according to you, "has no cause"!! That is totally and mind-bogglingly inconsistent and illogical on your part!! That is my contribution to this matter. Read the books and get back to me.
John D. Partin, I do not think Lionheart is an atheist. I would say he is an Agnostic. He is open to being proven wrong.
Pastor George Day, if he is truly open to being proven wrong, he should read those books that I mentioned above and he will get to be what he is "open to" and will be proved wrong!! But he won't read them because he knows that they will prove him wrong, and that isn't a wishy washy "agnostic" (fencesitter!!), but someone who is bound and determined to remain an atheist and just won't read or listen to anything that would rock his little world and destroy his atheism!! That is, a bigot!! Any "thinking" that can only be maintained by refusing to look at or consider any evidence that contradicts it isn't worth the trouble of having and needing to hide out forever over!! I have read atheist books, which have only convinced me all the more that atheism is a crock!! So, let him read those books that refute atheism if he is so sure that his position is right, and read them with an open mind (or don't waste his time on just a token "effort" to say that he "read and considered them") and see if his atheism bears up under questioning and scrutiny. He will never submit his position to that!!
Just for the record, I see myself as a secular humanist.
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It doesn't matter what you consider yourself to be, since you, the same as many other people, have mistaken views of yourself. The Pharisees also considered themselves "righteous" when they weren't, and the list goes on and on of some people's wrong views of themselves. By their fruits you will know them, and not by what they say about themselves, since even Nazis and Klansmen think differently about themselves than they really are and "justify" and "excuse" themselves. If even Nazism and white or black racism can be "justified" in the view of the holders of those beliefs, there is nothing that can't be "justified" in people's views. So, you are the last person to be consulted about what you are and are not even to be consulted about it at all. As Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote "What you are speaks so loudly that I can't hear what you are saying about yourself at all".
Unfortunately for you, John, people do consult me. I’m sorry you might find that hard to believe.
In fact, 2 young girls did once consult me, on separate occasions, and I helped them both from committing suicide, which they were contemplating as a result of being involved with Religion.
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Actually, it's unfortunate for the people that consult you because then they are listening to and being indoctrinated by your lies, the same as you listen to and are indoctrinated by your own lies to yourself. Some people might appear to be appear to be "benefitted" or "rescued from suicide or other problems" by lies against the truth of Christ because Satan could hardly offer those lies as "other solutions and ways of salvation" to people if he couldn't give them the appearance, at least, of those lies' "helping" them, but it is a false "help, salvation, compassion, and love" that he offers them, like the "help" that an alcoholic finds in drinking alcohol or a drug addict finds in more addictive drugs. There have always been false teachers and counselors, such as yourself, but you are just the blind leading the blind, and when the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch!! You know as well as I do and every reasonable and honest person here and in the world knows (or would know if you ever pulled your head out of your behind and opened your eyes and mind to the truth long enough!!) that more people have committed suicide and been murdered because of the lies of atheism in Communism, Nazism, and society, generally, than any confused people who have killed themselves or others in Christianity. Those who have killed themselves or others in Christianity did so despite the teachings of Christ to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others as you would have others do unto you", whereas those who have killed or harmed themselves or others in atheism did so BECAUSE of their atheist indoctrination. You and other atheists and non-believers, no doubt, find some "wisdom" and "comfort" in your own lies, the same as there is pleasure in sin--- for a season--- because Satan again couldn't lure you away from the truth if he didn't give you something to appear to take its place, but it is a false "wisdom". Real wisdom would see in the order and design of the universe proof that there is an Orderer and Designer of it and not one of your phony substitutes of "fairies, Dionysus, etc." tossed out desperately to take His place, while false "wisdom" sees in universal order and design "nothing but an accident and coincidence". Go on being a blind leader of the blind and falling into the ditch with them and "wise" in your own eyes, and go on playing with yourself and trying to drain those fluids out that have backed up into your "brain", as much as possible!!
I saved them, John. Isn’t that wonderful? Your god didn’t do it, I did. I was their Savior. They turned to me, and I showed up for them, which is more than your mythical god ever does. I’m sure you’ll somehow con yourself that he does, that’s your mentality, John.
Are you still talking to the wall, floor, or ceiling, John, to no one. Please get well.
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You led them further into lies and darkness, since that is all that you have inside of you and you can't give what you don't have, but that couldn't really be called "saving" them. Damning them, certainly, but not saving them! Their physical lives were preserved, so that they could still be around for you to indoctrinate then further and pile up more punishments in Hell for themselves and you, but their souls were lost! You don't have any concern for people's souls or even believe in them, but only in their physical bodies and so count that entirely as a "win", though it really isn't anything for you to be bragging about and you would, if you were thinking rightly, be ashamed of it and asking God for forgiveness for doing it. Souls don't stop existing just because you don't believe in them, anymore than Heaven, Hell, Satan and his devils, and God and Jesus and angels do. What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world (much less just hangs onto his physical life), but loses his own soul. You probably did do that all by yourself, since if God had been guiding and helping you, you would have actually helped them, instead of only "helping" them according to your own blindness. Physician, heal thyself! But someone else was probably helping and guiding you to do that, who delights in people's being told lies and being led into darkness, and that is your "dear friend" Satan and his devils! Say hello to him and all of them when you meet him!! God has been more than abundantly shown to answer prayers and show up for people, but you are too cowardly, lazy, and bigoted to ever look up any of that evidence online!! That is your mentality. Neither I nor anyone else talks to the wall, floor or ceiling when we pray to God because they can't answer any prayers, as He does, but because you deny His existence when the proof of it is all around you, "talking to the wall, floor or ceiling" is all that it seems like to you. That is your self-imposed blindness!! Please get well and remove your blinders from your eyes and heart and mind yourself because I and all other believers in God are already well. Remove the beam from your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove any more speck from your brother's eye!!
Whatever you said here I’m sure it’s your usual long diatribe of trying to convince yourself. Still hearing voices, John?
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