Judge Rules Christian Photographer Can Legally Refuse LGBTQ Weddings

Douglas Robert Spindler

@Pastor George Day Just what does it mean to be a Christian? There are over 50,000 "Christian" religions in the world today and to think they began as one. Perfect example of evolution. Another good example of religious evolution are Mormons. It was just 200 years ago the Mormon religion was stated. And in those 200 years that one Mormon religion has evolved into over 100 Mormon religions.

Anyone can call themselves a Christian Jews, Muslim or Mormons if they want. Doesn't really matter what you believe does it?

Douglas Robert Spindler

@Pastor George Day So what does it mean to be a Christian? Mormons believe when you die, you will become a God. That's not what non-Mormon Christians tell me they believe. As a Christian when you die, do you believe you will become a God like Mormons?

Douglas Robert Spindler

@Pastor George Day Just what does it mean to be a Christian? There are over 50,000 "Christian" religions in the world today and to think they began as one. Perfect example of evolution. Another good example of religious evolution are Mormons. It was just 200 years ago the Mormon religion was stated. And in those 200 years that one Mormon religion has evolved into over 100 Mormon religions.

Anyone can call themselves a Christian Jews, Muslim or Mormons if they want. Doesn't really matter what you believe does it?

John D. Partin

Some prayers for deliverance from the Holocaust were answered because there were people who escaped being exterminated, through Christian prayers and actions, without which none of them or far less of them would have been saved, but you don't even give Christians any credit for how much they helped to save the Jews and others from that atrocity. Oskar Schindler, Pius Xii, Corrie Ten Boom, and many other Christians helped to save Jews from the Holocaust and they did so because of and by their prayers and Christian faith, which you see "no value" in, despite all the good, hospitals, Holocaust rescuing, homeless shelters and care, love and forgiveness and concern for pregnant women and offering them alternatives to abortion and care for their unborn children, and many other good things that they have done, and which you want to throw away because "society would be better off without it", according to you!! You talk about concern for children with cancer. St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital is all about concern for and cures for children with cancer, and it was started by Danny Thomas because of his prayer and promise to God to start that, which he wouldn't have done if nobody ever prayed, as you believe that they shouldn't. How many other good things for the world began through prayer, such as the Red Cross, the Salvation Army and its care for the homeless and help to people during natural catastrophes with food and housing, and Joyce Meyer Ministries and others helping people in need in foreign countries and here. What have you atheists ever done to the world, except the Nazi Holocaust and Communist purges and repressions and other dictatorships and ungodly practices and teachings, which we really would be better off without!!! To expect or ask that God cure all evils and sicknesses in the world while people continue on in their defiance of God and sinning and that there should be no consequences to all of that is trying to have your cake and eat it, too, and is unrealistic and unreasonable!! If people recover from problems even when they didn't pray, that doesn't mean that other people weren't praying or, as usual, didn't you read that part? So-called "Christians" have done much evil in the world, but why should they be indiscriminately lumped in with actual Christians who have done very much good in the world, as mentioned above. Read those books that I mentioned in my post below and see how much they blow your atheism out of the water and if you can answer their objections to atheism, if you aren't too afraid to do so

John D. Partin

And as I told you above, God isn't going to remove all cancer and other evils in the world as long as you and other people are going on with your sinning and disobedience to God, which brings all these evils down upon the world and is your and other atheists trying to have it both ways and have your cake and eat it, too. God isn't going to take away our free will, which is the only way that all evils could be eliminated from the world (which wouldn't even be able to see the difference between good and evil, even less than they can now!!) and enables us to do good as well as evil, since then doing good wouldn't be our personal choice and God wants us to choose to do good and avoid evil. Our disobedience to God affects the natural order, too, and brought sickness, cancer, and death into the world, even if you refuse to accept or understand that. But God can bring good even out of evil, as with the State of Israel resulting from the Holocaust and St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital resulting from children's having cancer in the world, and wants all of us to participate in the world's healing and salvation, and not just depend on God to do everything for us. You will never even try to understand this because you are a very dishonest and self-centered person, but it is still the truth. This is just another one of your evasions of answering the objections to atheism presented in the books that I told you about, which you are too cowardly to even get, read, and fairly consider, since they blow atheism out of the water!!! Go ahead and lie to yourself and play all of these games with yourself that you want and anyone else that you can get to go along with you, but you are only fooling yourself and them with that because the rest of us are wise to you and see the truth about you, which you refuse to or can't anymore see!! We're waiting for you to come out of all that....yawn, but not hopefully at all!!

John D. Partin

Still not getting and reading all those books that I told you about, right, because you are too afraid to do so, obviously!! I and everyone else here are still waiting for you to read the explanation for cancer still going on in the world, as stated to you several times already (that is, cancer and other evils' going to continue as long as people go on sinning, which keeps all of these evils going, too), instead of your refusing to read and understand that and asking the same STUPID!!!! question every time that you post in here, as though you are learning disabled or very selective and prejudicial in what you read and consider in anyone's post. Sinning keeps cancer and other evils in the world, and not until all the sinning stops, since it affects the natural order, is all the cancer going to stop in the world. Sin and disobedience to God brought death, disease, cancer, misery, injury, racism, genocide, and all other evils into the world because before our fall into sin, none of these things existed. God would be fighting a losing battle curing all cases of cancer as long as the root cause of cancer and other evils (sin) goes on in the world because people would keep digging themselves deeper into the same hole and wouldn't be helped, and so God does all that He can for us and leads people to help other people with treating cases of cancer and trying to find cures for it and miraculously cures some cases of it because of people's prayers, since they won't give up everywhere the cause of it. What part of that can't you understand?!! SINNING KEEPS CANCER IN THE WORLD!!!! Tattoo that on your forehead or wherever else that you will see it every day or put up notes saying that on your refrigerator and all over your house, so that you will see it constantly and will stop asking the same STUPID!!! question all the time in every post here!! Of course, this has been another big waste of time telling you this again because you are still learning disabled and only see and read and understand what you want, just as it was for Jesus to talk to the Pharisees because they wouldn't listen, either, but I can only tell you the truth and do my part, and not make you listen to or accept or understand it.

John D. Partin

Once again, you're not understanding or even reading my posts to you (and so how much less would you be able to or willing to read any of the books that I told you about?) because I have already told you repeatedly why all hospital beds aren't emptied of cancer patients and all evils eliminated from the world and, though it will be more pouring water over a rock and wasting more words on you that you are incapable of and unwilling to understand, here goes again. God isn't going to eliminate all consequences from our sinning against and ignoring Him and going our own way, so that we can continue on in our sins and there won't be any consequences for that in cancer, death, war, and all other evils because that isn't realistic or the way that life works. You believe that we should live in a consequence free universe and that nothing that we ever do should have any negative consequences and that we should be able to sin as much as we please and have no problems or penalties for doing so, but that isn't realistic or reasonable at all. Cancer for innocent children is one of those penalties for our going our own way and which our sins bring upon them because penalties for sins extend beyond those who are directly committing those sins and the whole human race became subject to those penalties from the first fall into sin. Innocent people are killed during war and that is as wrong as innocent children getting and dying from cancer, but that is the penalty for our sins. Sin is wrong and can't help but to inflict more wrong on children and innocent people during war and others not directly doing those sins, since the natural order is corrupted and distorted by our sins. God respects our free will enough to let us go our own way into sin and into Hell when we die and to live without God being important or even existing, according to us, in our lives, but there is a price for our making that decision, for ourselves and everyone else!! We can have it our way, but at a cost. "There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is the way of death". "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord". If you really want all cancer wards in hospitals to be emptied of patients because they are all cured, all that you have to do is get everyone everywhere to stop sinning forever and that will happen, but don't expect God to deliver all cancer patients and everyone else from the consequences of the sins that we have chosen over Him as long as we all continue to do so and let us have only good and no evils while doing so and have it both ways because that is never going to happen. In short, if you make your bed, you have to lie in it, no matter how poorly it is made!! We are all waiting for you to ever get this!! This has been more casting pearls in front of pigs trying to explain this to you again, but there you go and so now reply back that you still don't understand it (and never will) because you refuse to do so!!! Get those books and read and try to understand them, if you can ever open your mind enough to do so, which you can't, and don't make God's removing cancer and all evils from the world while we go right along committing evils the requirement for your getting those books, since that isn't ever going to happen!!!

John D. Partin

You are like a 10 year old or less kid, who is told repeatedly why something can't happen or that we haven't arrived at our destination yet, and still keeps asking "Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" or "Why can't it happen?", which has already been explained exhaustively to them!! Likewise, it has been explained exhaustively to you why God isn't curing all cases of cancer in children (because we keep going on in our sins and going our own way, which is what is bringing cancer on the children, and so we are responsible for cancer in children, not God, and could cure all children from cancer tomorrow, if we all stopped sinning against God and repented), and still you keep childishly asking "Why doesn't God cure all cases of cancer in children?". An actual mature adult can understand and accept a reasonable explanation, to all reasonable, not indoctrinated and prejudicial, adults when it is given to them, and so that proves that you aren't a mature adult and it is pointless giving reasonable explanations to you because you aren't mature enough to understand them. I'm talking to a little kid when I'm talking to you, which is a big waste of time!! It has been told to you that there have been recoveries from sickness and injury through prayers for them, and you can look these up for yourself under "miracles obtained through prayers" or "miraculous cures", far bigger than just remissions from cancer and documented, on Google, but you won't look them up or your preconceived views and bigotry against God, Christianity, prayers, and miracles will keep them from meaning or proving anything to you, even if you do. None are so blind as those who refuse to see!! There is no shortage of proof that prayers do work, but you have to actually open your eyes, heart, and mind in order to see and accept them, which is impossible for you. How pathetic and desperately self-blinding your unbelief is!! There is no shortage of evidence for God's existence, but none of that does you any good because you aren't able to open your mind, heart, and eyes to see and accept them, which your bigotry keeps you from doing!! You and other atheists aren't able to make even a car drive itself across country without its being remote controlled or computer programmed, which should be happening all the time for every car, if the entire unthinking universe drives and regulates itself without a Mind behind it, as you believe. Logically, what you can't get even a car here on Earth to do, you can forget all about the whole rest of the universe doing, which proves that there is a Mind behind the universe. Or else show me the example of the self-driving car!! You keep trying to "justify" your myth of God's being "mythical" by ignoring all the evidence that God isn't mythical and narrow-mindedly and self-indoctrinatedly blocking all of that out of your mind, as all atheists have to do, in order to maintain their atheism and never open their eyes to the truth and light of God all around them!! There are many people, such as yourself, who only grow up in their bodies, but never grow up in their maturity and comprehension, and it is a big waste of time to try explaining God to them or you, since you lack the necessary adult understanding to enable you to see and accept the explanation. Prayers work, as you could easily prove to yourself, if you were able to do it, which you aren't, but could become, if you opened yourself to it Until then, go on in your delusion that there is nothing beyond what we can detect with our physical senses, that answers to prayer happen without any Power making them happen, and that you and man are the "supreme intellect in the universe", and be as happy as you can be in your delusion.

John D. Partin

You are only interested in being evasive and playing games in here and probably in the rest of your "life", too, and "answering" my post about your immaturity with more talk about children's getting cancer, which has already been more than satisfactorily answered as to the cause for that for all reasonable and honest people here and in the world (our sins), and only "not answered" to all dishonest and game playing people, such as yourself!!! More proof of your immaturity!! You don't care anything about children's getting and dying from cancer, but only hide behind and use that matter in order to continue to attack Christianity and prayers as your cynical ploy and tactic!! You have already had the explanation for not all children's being cured from cancer fully explained to you and told where to find examples of prayers' working, but refuse to even go and look at that evidence, and just go on with your tactic here, even though you know yourself that there is a reason why those cases go on (our sins) and God won't clean up our mess and let us go on making and wallowing in our mess without any consequences for any of that!! That proves you to be very pretentious, insincere, dishonest, game playing, and cynical, which makes it a waste of my time talking to you until you ever become honest, which will never happen!! No doubt, you don't really care about anyone other than yourself!! Not about children with cancer, unborn children being aborted, innocent people who have died in wars or victims of the Holocaust, people at the Southern border who need asylum here from gangs and violence in their countries (as you have admitted many times here and urged them to be sent back to those countries), or anyone else, but, again, put up a front and pretense of "caring about children with cancer" in order to attack Christianity, prayers, God, and miracles from behind it, since they don't jump through your hoops fast enough or at all or ask how high when you say "jump" to suit you!! If you really cared about children having cancer, you would actually be doing something to fight the cause of it and trying to get people to stop sinning, and stop blaming God for something that we are causing and expecting Him to clean up our mess while we go on making that mess and expecting no consequences from our doing so, but you don't really care about that and just go on with your front and tactic here. No doubt, it has taken years and decades to make you as cynical, indifferent to others, sick, and game playing as you are today, and all of that isn't going to be cleaned by any posts back and forth between you and I or with any other people here, but will take you years and decades in psychotherapy and even going to confession to clear all of that up, if it even can be at all, which is very doubtful. You are certainly a hopeless case, but anything less than psychotherapy and confession for years and decades for you is an exercise in futility!! Go play with other people and waste their time with all of your games, since I'm only interested in actual responsiveness to my posts, not such evasiveness as yours!! Get some serious help for your very serious problems and get better, if you possibly can!!!

John D. Partin

You don't read my posts because you're afraid that they will get through to you and shake you out of your idiotic atheism and just make up this "they are too long to read" evasion, since evading is all that you ever do, to cover up that real reason. That explains why you aren't reading those books: because they are even more beyond your very limited "comprehension" and you know that they would blow your atheism out of the water and you're too afraid to read them and take that chance!! You would just play more games with them and be evasive, the same as you are in here and out in the rest of your world, too. Your bigotry against God, Christianity, prayers, and miracles would also keep you from really understanding and considering them, anyway. You're also too afraid to read those articles in Google that show that prayers do work and there are recoveries from illnesses and injuries through prayers and God is listening to our prayers. Keeping your eyes and mind closed is the only way that any atheists can maintain their atheism because if they or you ever really opened your eyes and minds and looked at and considered the actual efficacy of prayers in the world and evidence for God's existence, all of your atheism would go flying out the window and it would become non-existent!!! So, you just say "there is no evidence" without even looking at the evidence, in order to keep yourself in blindness and darkness!! Something, such as atheism, that can only be maintained through keeping your eyes and mind closed isn't worth the trouble of having, anyway. You couldn't walk or drive around in even this physical world with your eyes closed and ears stopped up all the time without walking in front of or being hit in your car by other cars or having all kinds of other problems and keeping your eyes, ears, and mind closed doesn't work any better in the spiritual life and will lead you into all kinds of problems and wrong conclusions!!! You have far less efficacy and impact in the world than God and prayers do. So, we might as well say that you don't really exist, by your own standards, since there is far less evidence of your existence than there is of God's existence!! Time itself isn't divided into before and after your birth, as it is for before and after Christ's birth, and you didn't change the world and never will change the world as much as Jesus Christ has changed the world, and there aren't examples of miracles through invoking your name as there are miracles through invoking the name of Jesus Christ, which you are too afraid to look up in Google and online. People's hearts haven't been changed and demons driven out through calling upon you, but only by calling upon Christ. So, you must really be imaginary and a myth!! Only those who are afraid of the truth, such as yourself, say that any reading of the truth is "too long to read", which proves that you are afraid of the truth, as were the Communists and the leaders of the French Revolution. That's why they forbid the teaching of Christianity in their regimes, so that they wouldn't have to hear and be exposed to the truth. That is why you don't want to read it here because it would shake up your little world!! Too much truth for you is your problem!!'

Charles Thomas Norkus

l read your posts, Lionheart, and l read John’s. Why bad things happen to innocent people is a huge question, especially if one considers whether or not God exists, and if so, how or why not does God relate or respond to suffering. l would appreciate seriously considered replies, without the personal insults, from both of you. l’m here to learn from you and others.

John D. Partin

Don't keep on lying that I have never explained to you why God doesn't just instantaneously eliminate all disease, cancer, war, and other problems from the world when I have explained that to you over and over and over again endlessly, but you have just refused to read and consider it!! Your not reading and considering the reason why God doesn't do that isn't the same thing at all as its never having been explained to you!!! Stop your lying to Charles here and trying to present yourself to him as "the reasonable person here", which you know as well as I and everyone reading your posts here knows is a LIE!!! Once again, for Charles and not uselessly for a bigot like you, God isn't going to eliminate all the consequences of our sinning against Him and going our own way, resulting in children's having cancer and other problems, so that we can have our cake and eat it, too, of sinning as much as we like, while having no consequences from that, since that is unrealistic and unreasonable!!! The order and synchronization, calibration, and maintenance of the universe can't be the work of a mindless universe, but only of a mind behind the universe, not a myth. If the whole universe really works the way that you say that it does, without any mind behind it at all, it shouldn't be any problem for you to give us all a very small demonstration and evidence of that by showing us a totally self-driving and self-maintaining car. So, what's the hold up with showing us that evidence? What you can't even get a car here on Earth to do, you can forget all about the whole rest of the universe doing. So, there must be a mind behind the universe doing for it what it can't do for itself!! Put up or shut up and show us the self-driving car or admit that you are wrong about there being no mind behind the universe because it's either one or the other!! That's not a weak argument, but the strongest of arguments, which you can't refute, or else show us the refutation of it!! God has healed some children and others from cancer and other problems, which you can't refute, either, but only, as you do with all other evidence against your atheism and those books that I mentioned to you, refuse to even consider or look at or read, and keeping your eyes and mind tightly closed are your version of "refuting them and proving them wrong"!! This is for Charles, anyway, and is more than enough time and effort wasted on you again!!! Charles, let me know if you still have any questions and I'll try to answer them.

John D. Partin

Pastor George Day, I appreciate your efforts to meditate between him and me and to be a peacemaker, since Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God". Yet, there is wrong peacemaking and people that there can't be any real peace between, as long as they are completely divergent from each other without any common ground for a meeting of their minds upon, as Neville Chamberlain's attempts at "peacemaking" with Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany were wrong and even Jesus couldn't be at peace with the scribes and Pharisees as long as they kept their hard hearts and only letter of the law thinking or with the moneychangers in the temple as long as they kept on buying and selling in the temple and making a house of prayer into a den of thieves. There can only be a false "peace" between people who are so totally divergent as that and between those who hold to the truth and those who follow lies, hate, unforgiveness, and disobedience to God. "Peace at any price", at the price of saying there is no truth, except what everyone makes up for himself or herself, just so that we can all get along together, isn't any peace or truth at all. You and I will just have to agree to disagree that he is an honest man because I don't see his claim not to see any mind behind the universe as being honest at all, since if there isn't any mind behind the universe, it simply couldn't do for itself things, such as synchronization, calibration, coordination, and maintenance, which require intelligence on the cosmic scale infinitely more than they do here on Earth. He only has to show me one example of a mindless thing running and maintaining itself, such as a car driving itself around and filling its tank with gas and getting itself oil changes and tire changes and other maintenance to prove to me that mindless things can perform intelligent actions, and yet he keeps refusing to come up with even that one example, for some not so mysterious reason (because it can't happen!!) which should be simplicity itself, if the universe works the way that he says that it does. What can't even happen for a car here on Earth can be forgotten all about for the entire rest of the universe!! His being a minister at one time doesn't mean that he ever understood Christianity, since there are other ex-ministers who are now involved in all sorts of sinning and wrongdoing, but wouldn't be if they had ever really understood Christianity. And Judas Iscariot was officially one of Jesus' disciples', but betrayed him, which he wouldn't have done if he had ever really understood Jesus and his teaching. The Pharisees were supposedly "priests" and yet were still hard-hearted, and so proved themselves not to be really priests, and that goes for many "priests" and "ministers" today, who are such in name only, who deny the power of God, while claiming to be "His followers and teachers", but are wolves in sheep's clothing and Satan disguised as an angel of light. So, that means nothing for him, either, that he was a "minister". Agnostic means fencesitter and trying to have it both ways and not committing to either side. Either there is a God or there isn't, and if there isn't, then explain why there is any intelligence displayed in the universe, which can't happen without any mind behind it, from just a mindless universe. But don't say that there isn't enough evidence to tell if there is a God, which is just a cop out and just not wanting to go as far as actually calling yourself an atheist, while still basically denying His existence. "Woe unto those who cry 'Peace, peace' when there is no peace". Elijah also wasn't and couldn't be at peace with the priests of Baal, but said "If Baal is God, follow him, but if God is God, follow Him", and proceeded to bring down fire from heaven to show them which was truly God, and wiped out the priests of Baal. That was his peacemaking with them and the only peacemaking with many other people possible, too. If he is so into science and thinks that a godless universe is scientific, then let him prove how a godless universe still operates as though it had a mind behind it scientifically, which a self-driving car would be an excellent place to start with. The truth isn't just whatever anyone says that it is because then there is no truth at all!! There can be peace between him and me and between atheists and Christians when they come to the truth, and not by our falsely compromising with them. "Peace on Earth, to men of good will".

Pastor George Day

Lionheart, I do not think you are being respectful to John. You certainly know better than that. I think in his own way, John has gone out of his way and taken a great deal of effort to explain his reasons for trusting God. You should at least acknowledge that.

John D. Partin

The universe is the evidence of God's existence, which you can't explain realistically or reasonably any other way than by admitting that there is a Mind behind the universe. Or else show us the self-driving car. I'm not going through the whole post above again and wasting more time on you!! Read the post above.

John D. Partin

Your question is stupid, as usual, and just an unsuccessful attempt at a distraction from admitting that God is the obvious Creator of the universe, since fairies, Dionysus, and man are contingent and created beings, and so weren't here before the universe was created to be able to create it themselves and couldn't have been here before they were here, which is illogical!! That is just showing your desperation to toss anything out there to avoid having to admit the truth that God created the universe. This is for Pastor George Day and Charles Thomas Norkus again, since you are a hopeless bigot against God and too indoctrinated in your atheism and so not sane or reasonable enough to understand and agree with this obvious truth!! Friedrich Nietzsche was driven insane by his atheism and we can all see that it has done the same thing to you!! Go and play with yourself much more vigorously and try to clean those fluids out of your "brain" that have backed up into it, as much as possible!!

John D. Partin

The proof that the mindless universe didn't create itself (a logical impossibility, since it couldn't be here before it was here to create itself, and wouldn't need creation if it was already here, which it did need!!) is that you can't even get a mindless car to do anything for itself or drive itself around. We are all still waiting for your example of that self-driving car. What even a car can't do (for the 10,000th time!!), you can forget all about the whole rest of the universe doing, and so there had to be a Mind behind the universe to do for it what it couldn't do itself, which is obvious to all reasonable and honest people!!! I have explained to you to distraction that God won't eliminate all consequences of our sinning against Him and rejection of Him, but you just refuse to even consider that, which is logical to all reasonable people, and consider your not considering it the same as its never having been explained to you, which it clearly isn't!! You couldn't do better than God can do and would do very much worse than God is doing if you were in God's place about healing all cancerous children, since you don't even help all the people that you have in your life right now!!! So, don't give us that BS that you would heal all cancerous children, which your own wife and family know is a LIE!!!! about you. You don't even answer the people that talk to you here in this blog or in your life there, but only give evasions and game playing. What a pathetic excuse for a "man" that you are!! How do your wife and family actually feel about being your apologists?!! Do your voices in your head convince you that you are "right" and keep lying to you every moment of every day?!! God doesn't have to prove Himself to you, since you have closed your mind and eyes and heart to all proof of Him and so go on in your blindness, bigotry, and hatefulness, and I will go on believing in the truth and love of God, which everyone who has opened their mind and eyes and heart can see and know. The voice of God that you have closed your ears and mind to hearing won't be heard by you, which doesn't prove that God isn't real, since He is, but only that you won't hear what you have blocked out of your hearing. If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as at Meribah.

John D. Partin

God didn't need to be created because He is necessary existence and couldn't not exist and is the Ground of being without which nothing else that exists could exist. He is the first "what was there before that", since otherwise there is no reason for anything else to exist and there is just endless retrocedent what was there before that, which is illogical. You wake up and get well and accept that reality and logic.

John D. Partin

The universe is a materialistic and, therefore, contingent and created thing, since it can't create itself, being a mindless thing, and so needs a non-contingent Creator to create it. Otherwise, he would be in the same fix as the universe and could no more come up with himself in order to create the universe than the universe could come up with itself. That isn't a cop out, but just obvious logic, to all people who are actually capable of understanding logic, which leaves you way out, as usual, in left field in your delusions there!! An endless stream of "creators of one god before another" stretching back into the past doesn't solve the problem of the existence of the universe, but just keeps pushing it back and would leave us without any universe, if it were true, which it couldn't possibly be!! Since there is a universe, we know that nobody created God and that He is the First Cause, making all other existence possible. If you really"think" that contingent and dependent things can do anything for themselves, try having a pile of metal assemble itself into a car without any people working on it or a car drive itself around the country without a driver behind the wheel, as I have asked you to show us before, or even have your breakfast cereal pour itself into your bowl and the milk pour itself on your cereal and the spoon raise the cereal up to your mouth without your or anyone's touching the spoon or any of ten million other examples, and let us know how that works out for you. You see, you don't even practice or believe in contingent things doing anything for themselves in your own life, and yet "think" that the whole contingent universe is doing anything for itself, anymore than your car or a pile of metal or your cereal could!! How illogical you are and desperate to avoid facing the truth of God's existence, no matter how stupid and silly it makes you!!!!

John D. Partin

Obviously, everyone else can't see that "I'm trying to convince myself" by the length of my posts because nobody else is complaining about it, except you, and nobody else has any problem reading something longer than "if", as you do,. because of your 2nd grade reading level! The whole universe isn't the same as no evidence for God's existence, even if you have illogically convinced yourself that "it is". Once again, some children and others are being healed from cancer by prayers, which you are too cowardly and bigoted to look up online, but God won't eliminate all consequences of our sinning against Him and rejection of Him. Are you still listening to those insane voices in your head? Obviously so, from your irrational statements here.

Pastor George Day

John D. Partin, I do not think Lionheart is an atheist. I would say he is an Agnostic. He is open to being proven wrong.

John D. Partin

It doesn't matter what you consider yourself to be, since you, the same as many other people, have mistaken views of yourself. The Pharisees also considered themselves "righteous" when they weren't, and the list goes on and on of some people's wrong views of themselves. By their fruits you will know them, and not by what they say about themselves, since even Nazis and Klansmen think differently about themselves than they really are and "justify" and "excuse" themselves. If even Nazism and white or black racism can be "justified" in the view of the holders of those beliefs, there is nothing that can't be "justified" in people's views. So, you are the last person to be consulted about what you are and are not even to be consulted about it at all. As Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote "What you are speaks so loudly that I can't hear what you are saying about yourself at all".

John D. Partin

Actually, it's unfortunate for the people that consult you because then they are listening to and being indoctrinated by your lies, the same as you listen to and are indoctrinated by your own lies to yourself. Some people might appear to be appear to be "benefitted" or "rescued from suicide or other problems" by lies against the truth of Christ because Satan could hardly offer those lies as "other solutions and ways of salvation" to people if he couldn't give them the appearance, at least, of those lies' "helping" them, but it is a false "help, salvation, compassion, and love" that he offers them, like the "help" that an alcoholic finds in drinking alcohol or a drug addict finds in more addictive drugs. There have always been false teachers and counselors, such as yourself, but you are just the blind leading the blind, and when the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch!! You know as well as I do and every reasonable and honest person here and in the world knows (or would know if you ever pulled your head out of your behind and opened your eyes and mind to the truth long enough!!) that more people have committed suicide and been murdered because of the lies of atheism in Communism, Nazism, and society, generally, than any confused people who have killed themselves or others in Christianity. Those who have killed themselves or others in Christianity did so despite the teachings of Christ to "love your neighbor as yourself" and "do unto others as you would have others do unto you", whereas those who have killed or harmed themselves or others in atheism did so BECAUSE of their atheist indoctrination. You and other atheists and non-believers, no doubt, find some "wisdom" and "comfort" in your own lies, the same as there is pleasure in sin--- for a season--- because Satan again couldn't lure you away from the truth if he didn't give you something to appear to take its place, but it is a false "wisdom". Real wisdom would see in the order and design of the universe proof that there is an Orderer and Designer of it and not one of your phony substitutes of "fairies, Dionysus, etc." tossed out desperately to take His place, while false "wisdom" sees in universal order and design "nothing but an accident and coincidence". Go on being a blind leader of the blind and falling into the ditch with them and "wise" in your own eyes, and go on playing with yourself and trying to drain those fluids out that have backed up into your "brain", as much as possible!!

John D. Partin

You led them further into lies and darkness, since that is all that you have inside of you and you can't give what you don't have, but that couldn't really be called "saving" them. Damning them, certainly, but not saving them! Their physical lives were preserved, so that they could still be around for you to indoctrinate then further and pile up more punishments in Hell for themselves and you, but their souls were lost! You don't have any concern for people's souls or even believe in them, but only in their physical bodies and so count that entirely as a "win", though it really isn't anything for you to be bragging about and you would, if you were thinking rightly, be ashamed of it and asking God for forgiveness for doing it. Souls don't stop existing just because you don't believe in them, anymore than Heaven, Hell, Satan and his devils, and God and Jesus and angels do. What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world (much less just hangs onto his physical life), but loses his own soul. You probably did do that all by yourself, since if God had been guiding and helping you, you would have actually helped them, instead of only "helping" them according to your own blindness. Physician, heal thyself! But someone else was probably helping and guiding you to do that, who delights in people's being told lies and being led into darkness, and that is your "dear friend" Satan and his devils! Say hello to him and all of them when you meet him!! God has been more than abundantly shown to answer prayers and show up for people, but you are too cowardly, lazy, and bigoted to ever look up any of that evidence online!! That is your mentality. Neither I nor anyone else talks to the wall, floor or ceiling when we pray to God because they can't answer any prayers, as He does, but because you deny His existence when the proof of it is all around you, "talking to the wall, floor or ceiling" is all that it seems like to you. That is your self-imposed blindness!! Please get well and remove your blinders from your eyes and heart and mind yourself because I and all other believers in God are already well. Remove the beam from your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove any more speck from your brother's eye!!