Jorge Ramirez facing deportation
Jorge Ramirez (center, right) was a strong supporter of President Trump's immigration policies. He is now facing deportation.

In the lead-up to the 2016 election, an Oceanside, CA minister named Jorge Ramirez encouraged his daughter to vote for then-candidate Donald Trump. Ramirez saw Trump as the best representative for conservative religious values and most likely to defend principles of religious freedom. He also backed Trump's stance on immigration, believing it was tough but fair.

The only problem? Ramirez was living in the country illegally a fact which came back to bite him when immigration agents caught on to his trail. Authorities waited outside the Ramirez residence one morning and took him into custody when he stepped out the door. Just like that, he was separated from his family and is now facing deportation.

Betrayed by False Promises

When Jorge Ramirez pushed his daughter to vote for Trump, he never envisioned a scenario in which he would get deported. After all, Trump did promise to only go after violent offenders and people with criminal histories neither of which are categories that Ramirez falls under.

"Everything that he's said against immigrants it's not that I'm in favor, but bad people don't belong here," Ramirez said. "In order to make America great, you have to have people contributing to this country."

So how does he feel now? Speaking from the detention center, Ramirez told reporters: "Trump said, 'Let's keep all the good people here and all the bad people out.'" That's great, but I'm here. If I'm here, anybody can be here. I'm not saying I'm the best person in the world, but I've tried to live a good life."

Saying Goodbye to Home

Jorge Ramirez had lived in the U.S. since he was 11 years old brought over the border by his parents without paperwork. He grew up in California, got married there, and started a family there. By every possible measure, the United States is his home. Now, all of a sudden, he's on the verge of being kicked out of the very country he's come to love. "I'm USA all the way," Ramirez explains. "It's that American spirit. It just gets into you."

Unfortunately for Ramirez, he may soon be keeping the American spirit alive on the other side of the border.

Immigration Crisis Reaches Boiling Point

No doubt there are more stories similar to that of Jorge Ramirez that have gone untold. As federal authorities ramp up their crackdowns on illegal immigration, an intense moral debate rages on. Do law-abiding people who've lived their entire lives in the United States deserve to be kicked out? It's one thing to knowingly cross the border as an adult but another entirely to be brought here as a child. Is there any leniency in the law, or does deterring future illegal immigrants require taking a hardline approach?

As a country, we must seek answers to these difficult questions.


  1. Sam's Avatar Sam

    The writting mason the wall, all one intelegent person had to do was look and listen to Trump and know that he was a lieing orange goon that lacked compassion and heart. There are so many people feeling duped by him on many levels. The sad thing is that they are using the bible to justify their evil actions. They are no different then radicle muslims who have cited the koran to kill. A vote for Trump and republicans is a vote for racism, homophobia, misogyny and hate. It's clear that he is not making America great, he is destroying it. People need to take their blinders off and try to get back their democratic rights before Trump gives it away to Russia. It's very sad but the future of America is not taking Trumps hard line approach but to find love, compassion and forgiveness and to stop blaming immigrants for their problems. Lessoned learned for voting for a dictator.

    1. Carl Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Elfstrom

      I didn't vote for Trump, and won't ever, but my political beliefs are mostly Republican, I belong to a Pagan religious life path called Wicca, and am not straight. However, I am a law abiding patriotic American, and vote in every presidential election. And this is only the second time since I became old enough to vote for a president in 1984 that who I voted for lost. My favorite of those presidents starred in This Is The Army (one of his better movies, of which I have a DVD of).

    2. James L Georgeson's Avatar James L Georgeson

      Easy answer don't break the law

    3. Dragon Priest's Avatar Dragon Priest

      Stupid christians voting against their own interests.

      1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        Like open borders.

  1. Jim's Avatar Jim

    He agreed with Trumps Policies and he is Illegal so go back and do it right.

    1. Carl Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Elfstrom

      That's a good point , Jim. But maybe he can become legal without having to go back to an unknown country.

    2. David Lay's Avatar David Lay

      Does Jerusalem have a wall? I think we should all help this man it’s in messages to the White House, as I did yesterday. I believe he’s a good man doing a good job.

      1. michael head's Avatar michael head

        This man had every opportunity to gain legal status. If he was brought here at the age of 11, he was eligible under the dream act. He obviously did not follow the path to legality that was laid in front of him. Yet, he remained in the shadows and remained in violation of the immigration laws he claims to support. In essence, he was playing the "look at them but not me" game and got caught.

        1. Jim's Avatar Jim

          I have a sister in law who came to this country and overstayed her visa. For YEARS she did not have a green card and was in fact an Illegal. Her and my brother finally did the PW with an attorney so yes he probably can do it without leaving the country but again I have no sympathy for the guy as he has had YEARS to get right with the law and has just not done it.

    3. Emanuel Shajhef Quinton's Avatar Emanuel Shajhef Quinton

      Did you, for some reason... not realize that he was brought to the country as a child? Lived his entire life in the USA, married an American and has American children? Where is he going to go back to? He has nothing nor affiliation for any other country.

      1. Steven Jones's Avatar Steven Jones

        Sounds like he was just too lazy to fill out the paper work.

        1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

          that paper work comes with substantial fees, and many people here even the citizens struggle to live month to month due to wages not keeping pace with the ever rising costs of living.

          Couple that with an army of scamming con men pretending to be immigration consultants and you have a recipe for making it nigh impossible to become legal.

          I very much feel that becoming a legal citizen is important, but it should be a quick and painless process that cost not one dime. It should be as simple as can be. Not a long drawn out process designed to create road blocks for the poor and uneducated.

          1. Jim's Avatar Jim

            Hey T Question? if there is PW involved it would mean that someone has to process the PW. Which means that someone would have to get paid to do so. So the American Tax payers should pay to let someone come into the country to become an American? There are plenty of Attorneys out there that are licensed, hence the scamming while it does happen is because people try and get things for a discount. This guy has an American wife and based on the info provided it appears they make a decent living. My sister in law had to go through the process and it was not that expensive a few thousand dollars. When are people going to stop making excuses for others and let them take responsibility for themselves?

      2. Jim's Avatar Jim

        If I robbed a bank in 1960 and lived years without getting caught and got married and had kids does that mean I do not have to pay for my crime. Again he could have done the PW with an attorney and got right with the law once he got married to a US citizen. The fact that he did not leads me to think there may be some other issues going on with this story.

        1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

          No because in the U.S. only murder can be prosecuted no matter the span of time has passed all other crimes normally only have a limited window of around 7 years after the initial commission to be identified and charged.

          1. Jim's Avatar Jim

            For major felonies its 10 years T, its called the statue of limitations. You also stated Hundreds of people are being kicked out of the service I guess because they are not white or Christian. That's just a lie so I don't know where you are getting your info. I still belong to several military organizations and I think I would have heard about these if they were true. ANY person serving this country should be given a path to citizenship provided he serves as required. I take it you have never served in the military so you know not what you are talking about or how the UCMJ works. Man I don't know who pissed on your parade or what happened to you to make you such a &*(@ (you can fill in the blanks). I guess you did not get enough hugs as a kid. You have no interest in actually having a conversation just trying to beat people down. You remind me of some spoiled little rich kid that was left alone to much and feels that the world owes you something. Always blaming others for the shit in your life that went wrong and doing nothing but bashing others instead of pulling yourself up and making things better for yourself. I really feel sorry for you T. I hope things get better for you because you really need some help.

    4. joseph's Avatar joseph

      You can believe in Trump all you want. I know Trump is a liar and a con and many in NJ have had their fill with the thief. More and more Trump is stripping Americans of their rights. Whether you agree or disagree with LBGT live style who the hell made you think you are more American then they are and made you a first class citizen and them a second class citizen? I served and I did what the coward would not so he is not making America great. He breaks the law daily with his business interest before America. Why does he hire foreign workers before Americans for his resorts? Why did he put tariffs of China but Excluded his family businesses from those tariffs? And people like you want to complain about Clinton yet you ok with a president who has the morals of a ally cat.

      1. Jim's Avatar Jim

        Yes Clintons morals are good right? You say Trump is a liar and a con man. First off, I don't know of a single politician who is not a con man. That said can you be more specific on what Trump has lied about. I'm not saying he is not a liar its just I know that Obama, Bush, Clinton all lied, I can recall the specifics of their lies you know "keep your doctor or plan" , "wont raise taxes", "did not have sexual relations with that woman" , "there was no classified information on the emails" etc. But I cant recall where Trump has lied. Now remember he is still president so if it was something he said he would do he still has time so that would not count, Help me out here and be specific please..

  1. Gary Hynous's Avatar Gary Hynous

    You should not be allowed to stay in U.S.A. unless you are a documented, legal immigrant. Families should not be separated. All immigrants can be vetted and if they have no criminal history begin the citizenship process. If a criminal, send him/her back to where they came from. Costly and time consuming process. There is really no graceful way to resolve this mess.

    1. Brad O'Toole's Avatar Brad O'Toole

      What do you think about the timely and time consuming process leading to a fruitful outcome? If the idea is to get rid of the bad and keep the good, perhaps someone like Jorge Ramirez could be vetted with a criminal background check and a tax review then granted a green card where after a period of time he will be vetted again before becoming a naturalized citizen should he choose that path.

      1. Charles McKenzie Jr's Avatar Charles McKenzie Jr

        Actually Brad you hit on a good point and possibly didn't realize it. If he was undocumented then he has no social security number therefore has never paid taxes. The more you look into this story the more you see he is not a "good" man. We as U.S. citizens have to pay taxes but yet he has lived in the country since he was 11 and hasn't done anything to become a part of this country. If he gets deported then it is completely his fault.

        1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

          a common misconception spread by the bigots. Man illegals work using an aquired SSN. This actually benefits the government as the wages are still taxed but there is no tax return filed by the worker.

          Likewise we have things like sales tax. So every time they buy something they are paying taxes.

          Keep in mind our taxes do not go to supporting our country they go to paying the perpetual debt the federal reserve has placed our country into. The real master of our country and owner of all property.

          "If the people ever allow private banks to control the issuance of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and the corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children will find themselves homeless on the very land their forefathers conquered." Thomas Jefferson.

          Never more so then now has this warning been shown to be virtually a prophecy. For the last century this country ahs become the land of wage slaves serving the Banks and corporations.


            Intelligent reflexion Valmaz.


    Brother Jim thank for your response. But nothing is black and white in these maters . I have been a lawyer. I am expecting Jorge's email to know if he already agreed any matters with Inmigration authorities. Thank again. With God!.

    1. Carl Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Elfstrom

      It sounds like Jorge Ramirez has had plenty of time to become a U.S. citizen if he wanted to. I hope he can become one now. He sounds like he'd make a good American, but what has stopped him from already having done so? Maybe he and a lot of other immigrants suffer from lack of self confidenc., call reluctance, or/and have inferiority complexes.

      1. CF's Avatar CF

        What stopped him??? Probably money.... because that process isn’t cheap.

        1. michael head's Avatar michael head

          DREAM ACT legalization does not cost money... Find a better reason. I hope that he does follow the process to gain legal residency, but until then, he has broken the law. We can't enforce immigration laws for some but turn a blind eye to others.

          1. SeekerOfTruth's Avatar SeekerOfTruth

            What are the fees for the DACA renewal application?

            Each renewal request costs the same as the initial request: $465.

            The price includes a $380 application fee for Form I-765 (Application for Employment Authorization) and an $85 fee for biometrics (fingerprints and photo as of Aug 31, 2015)

      2. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

        Actually Carl many do attempt to and end up scammed and have money stolen by offices calling themselves like immigration assistance agencies etc. They will give people stacks of BS forms to fill out, charge them thousands of dollars in so called legal fees and the like and then move on to greener pastures once they have stolen enough from the current community. And since the people are illegals they rarely ever report this con game.

        Its one of the main reasons local law enforcement and the FBI want to see ICE stopped. We need the undocumented immigrants to be willing to come forward about these actual criminals that prey upon the ignorant.

  1. Kirk's Avatar Kirk

    Don’t blame Trump, blame Ramirez’s parents! Oh well, he can fill out the paperwork and be back with his family pretty quick.

    1. Brad O'Toole's Avatar Brad O'Toole

      I would love to see the follow up story that states just what you say.

      1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        It won't be on THIS blog. Doesn't fit the narrative.

  1. Alan J Meunier's Avatar Alan J Meunier

    When you vote for a shark don't complain when you get bit.

    1. Rev J's Avatar Rev J

      Is that like... When you break the law, don’t complain when you get arrested?

      1. Carl Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Elfstrom

        If you can't serve the time don't do the crime. ---Barretta

    2. SeekerOfTruth's Avatar SeekerOfTruth

      "I never thought leopards would eat MY face", sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party.

  1. Janice A Ellery's Avatar Janice A Ellery

    There needs to be a process for people who have been here a long time and have no criminal history. Let's say ten years because if they were criminals by then we would know it. Some immigrants were promised citizenship if they served in the military and now they are still being deported. Keeping new illegals out is only a small part of the problem; we need to have a policy to deal with the ones that are already here. If someone has already been here 20 or 30 years with no crimes, deporting them seems counter-productive.

    1. Rich's Avatar Rich

      I concur Janice..... BUT -- CONGRESS is the only body of government that can FIX the laws to address that issue.... We need to remind them by voting the do nothings out who have been in for too many years.....

      1. REV. THEO KLEBES Interfaith Chaplin's Avatar REV. THEO KLEBES Interfaith Chaplin

        Agreed. Get out and vote!

        1. Jim's Avatar Jim

          Janice the stories about people being booted out of the military and deported are false. At least the way they are portrayed. These folks have been discharges with less than honorable which means they have a problem on the record. I cannot say for sure in every case but some of the ones recently that I have checked into were in fact discharges from the service under less than honorable, or a General discharge which is also an indication that the person got into some type of trouble. As a retired service man I knew people who were in that were given a path to citizenship and to the best of my knowledge the program is still alive and well. There is a lot of stories out there that the media only gives us the info to make the government or a certain person look bad. For example the pictures of the kids in cages which were taken during the Obama administration but were said to be current for Trump. Rich hit the nail on the head with CONGRESS is to blame for this mess not Trump. Like him or not this has been going on since the amnesty program that Reagan initiated back in the 80's which made matters worse.

          1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

            Let me guess Jimmy Dean sausages you are a big alex jone fan and buy into all the fake news BS Trump spews.

            Because you are dead wrong in the last few months hundreds of people that are not white and or christian have been kicked out of the military on BS security risks claims.

            Meanwhile countless soldiers guilty of sexual assault have had a blind eye turned on their predatory actions directed at women serving in the military.

  1. James's Avatar James

    Illegal immigration is black and white! Are you here illegally yes! Get out .Greyhound is cheap or bulk rate c130s. Every religion and every country has borders and law. If you break them you should expect to suffer.. We have to clean up our house in order to help any one else It's past due

    1. Clayton Beardmore's Avatar Clayton Beardmore


      1. REV. THEO KLEBES Interfaith Chaplin's Avatar REV. THEO KLEBES Interfaith Chaplin

        What if my Native American ancestors told the Pilgrams to turn around ! in 1620?

        1. CF's Avatar CF


          It’s amazing how everyone forgets that unless you are Native American.... YOU ARE AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT according to today’s immigration nightmare.

          Classic authoritarian dictator beginnings are showing .... and yet we stand by and watch.

          1. Jim's Avatar Jim

            Scientists have pretty much agreed that Native Americans came from Asia. Therefore the question would be that if native Americans came from Asia were there any people here when they got here and if so what happened to them? could it be that they wiped out the original peoples of North America? If they did then I guess that would but them in the same category as the SETTLERS. There is a difference between settlers and Immigrants. Look it up.

        2. michael head's Avatar michael head

          Hmmm, was there an immigration law in 1620?

          1. Rev J's Avatar Rev J

            Was there an immigration law in 1620? I would say yes. Much blood was shed to keep “The white invaders” off native/territorial land. Hundreds of years ago the penalty for illegally occupying someone’s territory was death. Over the years we have “become more civilized” and don’t kill people for trespassing over ones territorial border, we use laws.

        3. Steven Jones's Avatar Steven Jones

          A lot of Indians died from disease, and that allowed enough land to be open for Immigrants to claim. A lot of tribes didn't own the land, nor did they claim that they owned the land. It's like when you forget to call shotgun to sit in the front seat. When Indians did claim the land, there were land deals made. Over the years, I'm sure both sides are to blame for the deaths, but I'm sure glad the Immigrants won because I love having running water.

        4. Charles McKenzie Jr's Avatar Charles McKenzie Jr

          They did with wars and death. But you are trying to take what happened hundreds of years ago and apply it to today's standards and it just doesn't fit. Back then war and conquer was an every day occurrence and the native americans themselves went to war all the time against each other and raped and pillaged and every other gruesome thing that occurred back in those days they even took women and children of the losing tribes as slaves so they knew what an invading force was the moment they seen them coming. So trying to make history out to be something that it wasn't doesn't make your version right it just makes it seem that they were victims when they weren't they just lost like countless other countries and nations before them and plenty after.

    2. Roy L. Patterson's Avatar Roy L. Patterson

      Agree 100%

  1. Rich's Avatar Rich

    Either we are a nation of laws or we are not a nation at all....... CONGRESS are the ONLY government people who can write LAWS which the Executive [Trump] branch HAS to enforce...... IF anyone has an issue with the LAWS then they should get onto THEIR Congress critter to FIX those laws..... Trump is not a King who can just willie nillie go around issuing edicts like that one twit who had a phone and a pen was allowed to do..... CONGRESS does not seem to want to actually FIX the problem--- remember that this fall during the mid term elections.-- Trump told the CONGRESS that they needed to FIX the laws so that he could do the will of the people.

  1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

    Another great contradiction in the world view of the left--

    "The U.S. should not interfere in the affairs of other countries, nor try to tell them how to run their governments." Yet, at the same time, "We should give them financial and "humanitarian" aid, and take any and all of their people in who choose to come here."

    Is this country the father or big brother to the world, or not? If we are responsible for taking them in, we are also responsible for forcing their governments to take better care of them, PERIOD. You cannot have it both ways. Sorry.

    As I have said elsewhere, I AM my brother's keeper. That does not mean that I am everyone else's brother's keeper.

    Mr. Ramirez above is an example of good common sense even among the illegals. The fact that it came back to bite him is actually irrelevant, and he knows it. I am sorry for his problem, but my being sorry does not change the facts of the case. He will suffer discomfort, but he will be okay. It is not as if he will be sent to a CONCENTRATION CAMP and burned in an oven.

    1. Benji's Avatar Benji

      I love that your standard for being is okay is just not being burned alive. Ah compassionate Christians. And you conservatives said we liberals wouldn't act to stop family separation and detention at the border out of one side of your mouths while saying we want open border and somehow we would figure out how to get those people to vote. Make up your minds. Such great contradiction in the world view of the right.

      1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        The contradiction is with you people who think we should just let everyone wander everywhere they want, regardless of their language, culture, values or behavior. I didn't do anything to him. I would bet I have known and partied with and worked with more illegals than you have, Benji.

      2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        Also, Benji, you're a twit.

  1. Ruth Williams's Avatar Ruth Williams

    When kindness fails compassion will be void. This is not a simple answer and we don't know Jorge R.'s circumstances. But the bottom line is no one who is reasonable or who marches forward for justice and human rights will ever feel this is a good situation. Immigrants who work pay taxes. They work our fields to collect our food. They work hard, and often are left in the cold with wage theft, low wages, and horrible conditions because "they can". And yet, in most cases, it's better than what they left behind. We are a cruel nation of oligarchs and lobby interests. Disgraceful. .

    1. REV. THEO KLEBES Interfaith Chaplin's Avatar REV. THEO KLEBES Interfaith Chaplin


    2. Jim's Avatar Jim

      Really "a cruel nation of oligarchs" I don't see where thousands of people are jailed for talking against our government, or gassed in the streets or put into labor camps. Get a grip on reality. People need to accept responsibility for themselves and not look to the government for all the solutions to your problems. We have excuses for everything and everybody. Well its not his fault that he lives in a bad country so he comes here illegally. Its not his fault he lives in a bad neighborhood and turns into a pusher. Its not his fault he comes from a broken home, etc. etc. etc. For everyone of these excuses you can find someone who accepted responsibility for themselves and decided not me I'm going to make a better life for myself and became successful and in some cases very, VERY, Wealthy. "Oprah" or how about the first self made female millionaire in the US. Madame C. J. Walker around 1890 she to was African American. I agree that Human rights are very important but so are our laws and they should be respected and enforced. I also agree that the lobbyists have true power in congress but that to is our own fault. We elect people to the senate and let them stay there forever. There should be term limits and that would take the power away from the lobbyists, but no we have not made congress set term limits and we do not make them do the will of the people. They tow the party line and the few folks who head up the parties have the true power and I'm not talking about the politicians, I'm talking about the folks behind the scenes who really pull the strings. If our country is to make it for another 250 years folks had better start looking at the move we have been making towards socialism and get back on track towards our constitution.

  1. Stephanie Willey's Avatar Stephanie Willey

    Another Trump supporter gets screwed by Trump. Who couldn't have seen that one coming ? (I did...)

    1. Carl Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Elfstrom

      Trump is obviously a self-defeatist, which is also a common character defect of alcoholics. And yes, I did complete a year long course to become a substance abuse counselor.That doesn't mean that Trump is an alcoholic, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.

      1. Bryce A's Avatar Bryce A

        Trump doesn’t drink.... at all. It’s well documented.

        1. Sylvi Sterling's Avatar Sylvi Sterling

          Google the term "dry alcoholic"

        2. Carl Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Elfstrom

          Drug addicts have many similar characteristics, Bryce. Does Trump at least smoke weed or do whipits?

      2. SeekerOfTruth's Avatar SeekerOfTruth

        His brother died of alcoholism. Trump doesn't drink - he is the way he is naturally.

        Quote: "Research has shown that changes in speaking style can result from cognitive decline. STAT therefore asked experts in neurolinguistics and cognitive assessment, as well as psychologists and psychiatrists, to compare Trump’s speech from decades ago to that in 2017; they all agreed there had been a deterioration, and some said it could reflect changes in the health of Trump’s brain."

        statnews dot com /2017/05/23/donald-trump-speaking-style-interviews/

        1. Jim's Avatar Jim

          I hope I have as much on the ball when I get to his age. As for the Neurolinguistics and Cognitive assessment we know less about the brain then we do about space. The so called experts go based on theory and no proven science.

  1. Brian Han's Avatar Brian Han

    Apart from the American Indians, I thought you are all immigrants, so whats the fuss!

    1. Carl Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Elfstrom

      Anyone born in a particular country is a native of that country. It doesn't matter where anyone's ancestors came from. Those people are dead and have nothing to do with what's going on now, in the present moment, which is all we ever have. The so-called American Indians are natives of this land, just like the rest of us who were born here, no more and no less. I didn't migrate from anywhere. I have always lived in the USA, which makes me just as much of a native American as anyone. My ancestors migrated here from Sweden, England, Wales, Spain, France, and Italy, which in a way makes me a mutt, but I'm also an American, so that makes me an American mutt, like most of the rest of us,even some of the ones who live on reservations and claim at least 1/16 Indian blood. And I also love listening to my CD of Nancy bloom singing such songs as Spirits Walking the Wind and Pachamama. That's probably what I'm going to do today.

    2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      The American Indians are also immigrants. They didn't sprout like mushrooms. They drifted here.

  1. hate the lier's Avatar hate the lier

    That is Trump lie Number 3550. If you voted for him we all get his lies. Thank you for giving us all this mess. Get out and vote this piece of shi.... out of office.

    1. Jim's Avatar Jim

      As stated in a previous comment can you give me some specifics on the lies you are talking about. I'm not defending him I just don't recall him lying about anything. I'm getting old and maybe missed it, can you please be specific. Thanks

      1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

        Missed "IT"? ...And all of the THOUSANDS of others evidently!

        So how was that Desert Island?!

        Because either you just returned from one OR you're not paying any kind of attention to WORLD events! BUT based on ALL of your SO many comments ABOUT EVERYTHING, I seriously doubt that! So it must be that you really just don't care what or how many LIES Donald Trump tells about practically EVERYTHING! That's #MAGA! more times likely than any of your fained ignorance!

        HOWEVER (giving you the benefit of a seriously distrusted doubt), if "None-of-the-above", then perhaps you might actually benefit from an Alzheimer's Test!

        You did mention, "I'm getting old"! Your disingenuous "winks" to fellow PRETENDERS sure are!

        You OBVIOUSLY have an Interest connection, so in case you really did miss "IT", here's what's been happening while you slept, or were otherwise "Away"...


        WELL...Minus ONE! LOL

        Here's a starting point for your edification! Please, knock yourself out...

        1. Jim's Avatar Jim

          As I thought you have no real proof. You want to point to something in the media.. You have got to be kidding. PROOF WHAT HAVE YOU HEARD HIM SAY THAT WAS PROVEN TO BE A LIE. Keep the faith Minister Norman keep listening to the lies told about people that cannot be proven that is what has been going on with the left for many a year now. But hey that's ok. You can live your fantasy.. You my friend have that right.

          1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

            actually the NYT and WAPO are likely the last few papers in our country that stand for quality journalism. And there is an easy way to tell this. If they indeed reported Fake News as trump likes to say would make them open to lawsuits from trump which we all know he loves to do.

            So if Trump is not suing over an article then he is practically admitting its true.

          2. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

            I'm a bit of a News Junkie: I read & watch many forms of Media, including: Foreign & Domestic, Liberal & Conservative, and everything in between!

            And unlike too many today (and you come to mind), I actually like challenging my preconceptions & beliefs, because I actually like being informed! And you can't be one without the other!

            So I WATCH & I READ, a lot: Including Books, Newspapers & Magazines, Blogs & Commentary, Podcasts, Radio & Television & Online Social Media; especially Twitter!

            As such, MOST of the issues I'm informed about and the opinions I form around them, come DIRECTLY from the Sources themselves: Then reading all of the SPIN from various media outlets is even more fun, and oh so informative.

            You can tell a lot about a person, or an organization, based on their TAKE of a story you yourself witnessed, or an interview you yourself heard.

            I follow Trump on Twitter!

            So I read the President's opinions & his many observations FIRST HAND!

            And he LIES all the time about practically everything: Events and Stories I've seen or read myself FIRST HAND!

            I mean TRUMP will say things I've heard others say, and too many times his retelling of it is an out and out lie!

            TRUMP'S Post-Tweet-Storm SPIN is also something to behold: It's always horribly enlightening & pruriently entertaining, until I remind myself it's coming from the "Leader" of the Free World!

            Its also a scary realization that the same guy making all those childish inflammatory statements about everyone from celebrities to world leaders has the US Nuclear codes somewhere nearby!

            But the Stories all still remain the same, and regardless of anyones later SPIN, differing POV or "Walk Back"! Especially after hearing straight from the horses mouth, what is then repeated straight from the horses ass!

            He & you can SPIN anything any way you like, but that still doesn't change the FACTS!

            I think I understand the English Language well enough to ear, see, and comprehend whatever I encounter; even Trump's mangled prose!

            And as some wise person once observed, "THE INTERNET IS FOREVER; so mind what you say!"

            Trump obviously never got that memo!

            SEARCH TRUMPS OWN WORDS for yourself online! Compare whatever is being reported with what HE or YOU offhandedly dismiss as "Fake News", and see just how deluded you've become!

            And NO, I won't do that for you!

            That's become an all too obvious & laughable tactic with you: "Show me... Give me more details..." Which I could dismiss as LAZY on your part, but it's more likely just pathetically disingenuous!

            It doesn't matter anyway, because you don't want real information! IT'S so much easier for you to just follow along in goosesteps behind a bloated windbag, shooting off your mouth in kind, invading seemingly everyone elses Posts with your own, and otherwise acting smug as you TRASH other people's opinions or try to drown them out with your own uninforned distribes! And seemingly without ever once questioning anything you believe; like A GOOD PARTY PUPPET!

            I understand why you won't do any due diligence in checking your own opinions or any of Trump's "facts", because then defending TRUMP would be impossible; unless you're a Pathological LIAR too!

            Its really hysterical how alike Democracts & Republicans have become in your extreme Party-Line Punditry!

            Yes, I catch hell from both sides, because regardless of Party or religious affiliation, because still believe in defending their Sacred Cows!

            As an independent, I think for myself!

            Try it sometime!

            It's refreshing!

            Finally, I WILL offer this...

            Here's just one small example of a recent event in which Trump told yet another outright LIE: Trump denied trashing Brittish Prime Minister Teresa May to her face (in answer to a question from the Brittish Press during their joint Press Conferences) -- AND EVEN THOUGH THERE'S A RECORDING OF HIM TRASHING HER IN THE INTERVIEW TRUMP GAVE TO A LONDON TABLOID!

            What a coward! Can't even stand behind his own words! He just shoots his mouth off, train(wreck) of thought, and then like an infant denies his own words when confronted with them!

            But I guess that's "Fake News" too! Somebody obviously "sampled" your precious idols voice & made a "Composite" Recording to embrass him!

            Probably illegal (Space) Aliens

            Further, today, after TRASHING all of our ALLIES just yesterday & calling the European Union "America's greatest foe" (and I HEARD him say that on camera with my own ears), Trump then went to Russia, and today again trashed our Press AND every branch of the United States Intelligence Services (and on foreign soil to a former KGB DICTATOR), and then looked over from his lecturn and praised Putin and Russia and their intelligence community! ALSO on Camera!

            Is that "Fake News"?!!

            TRUMP IS A TRAITOR!

            Try not to trip as you Goosestep behind him!

          3. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Abnorman, you need to look up traitor. Apparently you have no concept of its definition.

  1. Roy L. Patterson's Avatar Roy L. Patterson

    Send all illegals home and let them apply legally. No other country in the world allows illegals to do what they do here.

  1. Sylvi Sterling's Avatar Sylvi Sterling

    Someone needs to sing this to Jorge!

    He clutched Trump to his bosom "You're so beautiful" he cried "But if I hadn't voted for you,by now you'd be denied." Well he stroked his MAGA hat again And kissed it really tight Instead of saying thanks Don Trump deported him that night.

    "I voted for you!" cried Jorge "You've ejected me but why?" "Now Mexico is dangerous And back there, I could die." "Ha shut up, stupid voter." Said that reptile with a grin "You knew damn well I was a snake before I took you in."

  1. Steven Jones's Avatar Steven Jones

    The guy could have become a citizen at any point within the many years he lived in the States. The article says that he got his daughter to vote for Trump. His daughter could have claimed him and made him a citizen. That's not Trump's fault.

    1. Emanuel Shajhef Quinton's Avatar Emanuel Shajhef Quinton

      You presume to know his circumstances or his knowledge of Immigration. As I've said earlier, he has been here the majority of his life, married American, has American children. I'm not saying it's an excuse but most people ie, most AMERICANS in particular are ignorant of immigration laws and it's not like anyone commenting here knows the letter of the laws, especially since they have been changing over time. So before you start blaming someone of something, and turning your head in contempt... get all your facts about the person your condemning.

      1. Jim's Avatar Jim

        Most Americans are ignorant of immigration laws, how laws are made our political system, our history as a matter of fact I would have to say that most Americans are living life unaware of what REALLY is going on in this country.

  1. Rev. Mig's Avatar Rev. Mig

    Everyone is blaming Trump, but these exact same laws were in place long before he was elected President... and they were being enforced in exactly the same manner long before he was elected. I am a legal permanent resident in this country and working toward citizenship - it is a difficult, costly and time consuming task - but it is worth it. That being said, falling foul of the myriad of rules and laws involved is simple IF you choose not to follow them - the RESPONSIBILITY to comply with the law lies with the immigrant, not the government. If you cross an international border into the United States with the intent on staying, and you do not possess legal authority to do so, then by default, you are a criminal and should be booted back out - plain and simple - follow the law, do it right, and you'll be welcomed as I was.

    Here's an analogy for those having a hard time understanding this concept...

    Your mum and dad take you to Disneyland... they sneak you in under the fence without paying for an entry ticket and, for a time, you get to enjoy the rides free of charge... then someone comes along and asks for your ticket... you don't have one... they throw you out because you do not have the right to be there... now... is that Disneyland's fault? Is it their responsibility to let YOU in for free when everyone else had to pay? NO! The fault is with the parents who broke the rules (and the law) to get you in for free... the same applies to admission into the United States...

    Another thing I keep hearing about is that that illegal immigrants are essential to the economy... How? They don't pay taxes (they don't have a Social Security number so how can they?) ...sure they make it more lucrative for greedy farmers who want to charge a high price for the goods they produce while paying these illegal immigrants next to nothing (which is a form of slavery). Illegal immigrants place burden on an already overburdened system... they cost the taxpayer for healthcare, benefits (yes, some states DO give benefits to undocumented aliens - but I guarantee you that deserving LEGAL immigrants most often do not get those benefits), subsidized housing, and other government programs that are meant for citizens and legal immigrants. They do not deserve to be here so they SHOULD be sent back to their country of origin.

    As for it being dangerous for them, since when did that become America's problem? We are already sending enough of our young men and women off to die in foreign lands to help protect those people who lack the courage to do it for themselves. If it is too dangerous for these people then maybe they should stand up against oppression there instead of making it the United States' problem.

    1. Jim's Avatar Jim

      God Bless you and thank you for your comments

      1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

        I can assure you that the diety Christians worship would never bless you or the above poster. In fact that entity is likely contemplating self destruction from guilt and regret for what it has unwittingly unleashed upon the world.

  1. Ivonne's Avatar Ivonne

    People who are here illegally are braking our laws, President Trump is doing what it should have been done long ago, enforcing our laws. Parents who place their kids in harm way should be charged. Go home and come back the right way.

  1. Charles McKenzie Jr's Avatar Charles McKenzie Jr

    Ok when he was a child I could see why he didn't register to get a green card but if he married a U.S. citizen then under the U.S. immigration laws, immigrants who marry U.S. citizens or permanent residents are among the categories of people allowed to apply for green cards. When the marriage is to a U.S. citizen, the immigrant is an "immediate relative," meaning that an unlimited number of immigrant visas (green cards) are available in that category every year, so the immigrant won't end up on a waiting list or be arrested. Bottom line is once he became an adult it was his responsibility to become legal and his failure to do so no matter his reason is willfully breaking the law of the country he says he loves. We don't pick and choose what laws of God to follow because we know to break even one makes us a sinner. So then how can we not say if you break a law then you are a criminal? If you lie you are a liar, you steal you are a thief and so on. If he was truly a man of God then he would have observed our laws which should be his laws.

  1. Patrick Bryan's Avatar Patrick Bryan

    We have been accepting immigrants into this country for years and I don't think that should stop as long as it is done the correct way just like thousands of people have done. Mr. Ramirez should be held accountable. If he had done what he should have to begin with then deportation would out of the picture. I understand that becoming a US citizen for most immigrants is very long process, but until that is corrected, they have to abide by the laws. If you truly believe in God and living your life accordingly, then you are a christian. But, if you are living in a lie and you continue living that lie, then your so called Christianity is as fake as your political job.

    1. Jim's Avatar Jim

      Well said..

  1. Gene's Avatar Gene

    Since he voted for that bloated orange nazi who wants to screw his own daughter, this is what he gets. As far as becoming legal, it's a very long, horribly expensive, extremely complicated ordeal. Plus there are far too many immigration lawyers who do absolutely nothing to help these people. They just take their money & blow smoke up their ass. There seems to be alot of very judgemental "experts" here that think they know everything about how immigration laws work. It is absurdly ridiculous & then laws change, then it gets even more complex & confusing. You have absolutely no idea what these people go through. Until you've walked in their shoes, don't judge. But what the fuck do white people care?? As long as it doesn't effect any of you personally, you couldn't give a rats flying ass about anyone but yourselves. You don't see brown & black people as humans, you only see them as less than animals. That's why slavery & the worst genocide in world history of Native Americans never bothered any of you. Because white people caused it. White people & your racism are a you problem, but white people have always had a bad habit of making their racism, greed, & entitlement issues an everybody else problem for centuries. You're obviously so desperate to keep yourselves in power, that you'll do anything to keep it, even torture & murder non white babies. Then you'll justify your crimes against humanity, act like you're the victims, hide behind the jeebus robes (christianity) & blame everyone else like you normally do. You're scared of the "browning" of 'merica & you're constantly denying what this is really about. When you lie about your racism to people around you, that's chicken shit, but when you look yourselves in the mirror every fuckin day & you lie to yourselves, that is goddamn pathetic.

    1. James L Georgeson's Avatar James L Georgeson

      Thought this was supposed to be a Christian forum. I'm unsubscribing from this. These are some very hateful people here. By

      1. SeekerOfTruth's Avatar SeekerOfTruth

        > These are some very hateful people here.

        Not just here. Everywhere. And the forum is for all religions and no religion.

        1. REV. THEO KLEBES Interfaith Chaplin's Avatar REV. THEO KLEBES Interfaith Chaplin

          Amen to that!

    2. Charles McKenzie Jr's Avatar Charles McKenzie Jr

      Hey Gene, stop your crying and put your pacifier back in your big mouth! First you and every single black,brown,red, green or whatever color you want to label yourself as have never been in slavery but yet you cry about it constantly. And you want to talk about slavery then good here's the facts African chefs SOLD their own people or other tribes people to Arab slave traders and news flash idiot they weren't white people. Hell over 10 years ago the civil rights congress of Nigeria made a world wide statement that Africans should no longer blame the white man for what their ancestral chiefs did to their own people. The only people who still cry and bitch about slavery is the so called "African American". But let's talk about todays issues. Africa and more to the point Islamic make followers are the leading pieces of shit who continue slavery by kidnapping, raping and then forcing into sex trafficking every single second of the day. That is a proven fact but I know you and people like you won't take responsibility for that atrocity. But since my daughter and granddaughter are half black I'm not about to group them in with you so I will pointedly say only American Blacks who are to lazy and ignorant like yourself that are either unwilling or to stupid to know the truth about history are the only wastes of oxygen that still continue to blame the white man. And I'll tell you this too because I wouldn't hesitate to say it to your face "You are a bitchmade mf"

      1. Jim's Avatar Jim

        Good post Charles lets also not forget that Blacks to owned slaves in the day and also Native Americans so the white man was not alone in these acts against humanity. Just from the way Gene talks we know what type of person he is so I guess as the saying goes you have to consider the source. But loved your comeback.

        1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

          Chuck and his soul mate Jimbo here are a couple blatant racists who lack anything resembling morality or humanity.

          1. Jim's Avatar Jim

            DO you feel better T now that you are back to the name calling. You have no idea who I am but you call me a racist with no morality or humanity. How much do you donate to charity? have you ever helped build a school in a poor country and sent your kids to build a school in a poor country hell for that matter have you ever even been to a poor country. If thinking that people should have respect for each other and take responsibility for their actions regardless of the color of their skin or their religious background or their sexual preference is being a racist then yes I am a racist. I truly feel that people should take care of themselves and if you are in a bad situation then change it. The old saying when life gives you lemons make lemonaid holds true. I will tell you what I am not and that is a bleeding hart that feels no one is at fault for what they do. I'm tired of the excuses people make like they are looking for a better life so they don't have to follow the rule of law. How about Alarez with the chainsaw who tried to cut off his families heads. He is in jail now is that not separated from his family. Should we not reunite them. We have no idea who these people are yet you want to just say darn they have a rough life so we should make it better. Someone somewhere has to pay for all this housing and feeding these folks. If you truly seek asylum then go to the checkpoint. If you try and cross illegally then put them on a bus and send em home. The white man is to blame for all the ills of the word but you people don't want to admit that as I said blacks owned slaves as did the Native Americans who most scientist agree came from Asia so I guess technically they are not Native to America. So many people come from bad backgrounds and make it in our country. Why? because this is America where anything is possible if you work hard and keep at it. You think you know who I am. For the record my wife was a LEGAL alien who now has her citizenship. My sister in law is a LEGAL alien but for a while she was illegal. I sent my kids when they were teens to the Dominican Republic for 6 weeks to help build a school in the mountains they had to live with the locals and eat what they eat. My Oldest daughter and I raised money to build a school in Laos for Pencils of Promise and I had the honor to go to Laos in 2015 for the opening of a new school about two hours out of Luang Prabang up in the mountains. Yes T, I am a racist one who believes that a person can do anything they put their minds to regardless of all the colors and things we label people. Sure there are people who need help from time to time and that is OK. But if you keep doing the same things over and over and expect different results we know what that is. Take responsibility for yourself first then if you need a little help we will see. As for morality, I'm not even going their because I am 100% sure I have you on that one. Yes you can call people who you don't know, never met a racist you live in America so the freedom of speech gives you that right. I spent 20 years in the service so you can say those things you want to say, I believed in them then and I still do now. God Bless America....

    3. Carl Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Elfstrom

      None of the people living today were born yet during slavery and the Indian war. Many of us whities believe in equality for all, and don't think of anyone as being any different than anyone else.y very first friend was of Hispanic descent. We were playing in the same playpen when we were babies. And his father, from Mexico, was a very successful engineer. I've had truly good friends of different ethnicities, religions, and sexual orientations. So shove that white people are prejudiced shit up your green martian ass! That's right, I don't like extraterrestrials, but people are 0eople it's plain to see. And rats don't fly. Rats with wings are called bats.

      1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

        Come now carl,bats are a very unique species both the micro and macro variety so trying to use a riddler insult for batman is not really up to par for your typical glibness.

  1. Bryce A's Avatar Bryce A

    Do you recognize that your comment is inherently racist? You are being exactly what you hate.

  1. Jay's Avatar Jay

    Well at least he did the right thing by voting for Mr. Trump. Why did he NOT become a citizen if this is something he cared so strongly about?

  1. Christian's Avatar Christian

    Your entire story fails to mention where he is going ?

    Can he join the Military and Earn his citizenship like so many other brand new Americans ?

    Is there a citizenship form or test he can take ?

    He shouldn't just give up, if he can find a good lawyer and follow the proper procedures he should be able to find some perfectly legal method to complete his citizenship.

    It might cost time & money, but it is certainly worth trying.

    If he runs into a dead end try someone else and something else.

    Never give up !

    1. SeekerOfTruth's Avatar SeekerOfTruth

      > Can he join the Military and Earn his citizenship like so many other brand new Americans ?

      Under Trump, people who do that (and are promised a path to citizenship) are being thrown out of the services.

      Ironic, that people who want to serve, like migrants and LGBTQIA,are being thrown out of the military by Cadet Heel Spurs.

      1. Jim's Avatar Jim

        Not true get your facts straight and research the cases. and Stop watching CNN

  1. Thomas Lightning Bolt's Avatar Thomas Lightning Bolt

    Hypocrisy is one of the biggest sins! If they are criminal they should face penalties. Most of us have to! So why the hell should they be above the laws? Build the wall! Americans first! FOR ONCE!

  1. SeekerOfTruth's Avatar SeekerOfTruth

    Despite his touting companies to “hire American,” properties connected to Trump have repeatedly asked the Department of Labor to look abroad for workers.

    The Trump National Golf Course in Westchester County made similar requests for foreign waiters and waitresses in April.

    While 500 visas for foreign workers have been requested for Mar-a-Lago since 2010, only 17 Americans out of 300 applicants have been hired, the New York Times reported last year.

    nydailynews dot com /news/national/mar-a-lago-continues-quest-foreign-workers-tiny-u-s-ads-article-1.3391652

    1. Jim's Avatar Jim

      So I guess in reality Trump is for immigration! O' wait if no one hires these immigrants then what happens. I guess he just cant win can he or maybe he thinks that the foreign waiters and waitresses do a better job or maybe NO AMERICANS WILL DO THE WORK. Sound familiar.


    Oops! My God, where is the compassion, the commiseration, the forgiveness, the love?

  1. Reb TK's Avatar Reb TK

    Caveat emptor...let the buyer beware.

  1. Richard Cornell's Avatar Richard Cornell

    One would think that if you know your not legal you would do all you can to change that. Guess not. So bye bye it is. He could flee to Canada, but Canada has a policy that they do not want to be a dumping grounds for those that will go on welfare. The Mexican government does not want this guy back. If he is married to an American citizen and with anchor children he has a good chance to being allow to stay in the US.

  1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

    Sadly, Jorge Ramirez is the exact kind of person Barack Obama talked about helping with DACA: Those who due to no fault of their own, were brought to the United States at a very young age, but remain good citizens, and actively participate & contribute to society!

    I believe people like that deserve a chance to stay and aquire their citizenship! Perhaps with a "Probation Period" leading to full naturalization!

    Reagan's "Amnesty" didn't address any of this, but it still happened! It was a small bandaid for a gaping wound!

    The blanket pardon he championed however, was overwhelmingly approved by most Republicans!

    This time around, Republican obstruction has (mainly) kept "Immigration Reform" on the back burner, both during the Obama administration and now; but Democracts bare equal blame!

    Democracts did little to introduce any kind of real reforms way back in the Clinton administration, when they were in control. But every administration since Reagan still has dirty hands! They have all just kicked the problem down the road; making it "Some Other Administration's" Problem! Plus U.S. "Policy" with "Nation Building" & "Regime Change" in Latin America certainly didn't help either!

    Thus this current mess!

    (BTW I'm a staunch Independent!)

    I feel for Jorge! It's really sad he was taken in by Donald Trump, who's proven himself to be a Pathological Liar; and who's "Word" literally means nothing, but it was Jorge's own actions that actually helped put him in his current predicament!

    Moral of the story? If you dance with the devil you're gonna get burnt!

    So what to do now? I believe DACA should convert into a "Final Amnesty" (and as in actually FINAL! After all every Sovereign Nation needs borders), and with the exact "Litmus Test" already written into DACA!

    After that, we need real Immigration Reform (not a wall which won't work), but electronic monitoring along with humane policy, and perhaps better trade with Mexico that both countries would benefit from.

    We can do this! All it takes is WILL!

  1. Gary Hynous's Avatar Gary Hynous

    Hello Minister Norman, I totally agree with your position regarding this situation. Other than vetting immigrants to keep out felons and other law breakers, we should welcome those people who are basically good, law abiding people, into our country allowing them to begin life anew here in the U.S.A. We need to give immigrants the opportunity to improve their lives and those of their children in a country where they feel safe.We need to train and educate those without a skill to be able to make a contribution to our country and be self sustaining. Detention centers smack of our treatment of Asians during the war which we should be ashamed of. Rather than build a ridiculous wall our tax dollars would be better spent helping people rather than trying to keep them out with a wall. Our President changes his mind with the phase of the moon or for some other reason just as foolish. You can't believe what he says. His relationship with Putin and Kim il is dangerous as neither of them can be trusted and don't really care about Trump or our country and only want what they can take from us, not what they have to offer in return. Thanks for your comments.

    1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

      Thank you for your thoughtful reply!

  1. Gary Hynous's Avatar Gary Hynous

    So, did Trump ever serve in the military. I think not as he was to busy adding to the fortune he inherited from daddy. How can you begin to understand the plight of poor immigrants or the average man/woman in the street.when you only see them from one of your many high rises not as people but as the unwashed masses of humanity?! Will this crap never stop?

    1. Jim's Avatar Jim

      Gary do you really think that any of the people on the hill understand the plight of the poor immigrants or the average man/woman in the street. If you think they do you are living in fantasy land. Both sides of the isle are bought and paid for by lobbyists the day they walk into office. Look at the Clintons they were not wealthy when he toke political office but was worth over 300 million when he left the white house. Here is one for you. Do you know the taxpayers pay over 5 mil a year for x presidents to maintain an office. Now we are paying for their retirement why in the hell are we paying to rent office space for them when they are getting paid hundreds of thousands to give lectures etc. Something wrong with this picture.

      1. Gary Hynous's Avatar Gary Hynous

        Hi Jim, We are in total agreement regarding politics and politicians in general. You can trust them until they open their mouths. I really don't follow politics much but I am interested in the gov't's turning a blind eye to retirees like my wife and I. Our country is primarily a socialist nation but as such I have not seen even a cost of living increase in our social security in years. Meanwhile the cost of living rises every year. I'm blessed in that my retirement income adequate but for lots of folks whose only income is an inadequate income from social security, I'd rather see us take care of them than thousands of immigrants, illegal or otherwise.I think we can no longer support our indigent, sickly or poor who are citizens. As long as politicians can vote themselves outrageous pay hikes paid for by us citizens, build ridiculous walls between between our country and Mexico and deport people who are not criminals rather than help them to get on their feet, educate them and allow them to become useful, self sustaining members of our society we have our priorities all wrong.Well, I'l climb down from my soapbox for now.m y finger are numb from all this typing. Take care. Gary

        1. Jim's Avatar Jim

          Hi Gary thanks for the comments. We are not a socialist nation and I hope we never become one. That said I agree with you. The elderly in this country have been misled by the government with SS. It was set up and the retirement age made where most people would only collect for a few years at most. Now people are living much longer and the Government has taken the money and spent it so SS will go broke soon. That is one reason why I always wonder why people want the Government to do things. They cant get anything right and we want them to take over more of our lives. Makes no sense. We need to force congress to revamp the system where they cannot give themselves pay raises. I have long said that each state should set the salary for Congressmen in their state not the congress for themselves. That way each state would pass pay raises etc via the state government. I spent 7 years running a retirement home and watched as some folks had to move because of the cost and their money ran out. It breaks your heart but there is little that can be done and the seniors end up going to the kids for help and in some cases that is not a good thing. Keep pushing and vote, maybe things will get better. Have a good day Gary.

  1. Rev Ned's Avatar Rev Ned

    Karma is a hoot!

    1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

      So is forgiveness!

      1. Jim's Avatar Jim

        Do we forgive the liers.

        1. Sylvi Sterling's Avatar Sylvi Sterling

          I hate to say this... truly... but... yes. YES we forgive. Jesus himself SAID, when asked how many times should a person forgive, "seven times seventy"... Forgiveness is one of the HARDEST things about being Christian. Seriously.... it's going against EVERYTHING the human heart stands for... and yet... it is what we are commanded to do. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." And.... DAMN, it's SO f****ing HAR*D!!!

          1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

            I use to think Forgiveness was a weakness: But it's just the opposite!!!

            Actually, Forgiveness is easier than most of us think: If done for the right reasons...

            For all of Humanity!

            It's all a part of that "Let go and let God!" Philosophy!

            FORGIVENESS & GRATITUDE are two of the most powerful Resources any of us has; in not only healing our own lives, but adding that energy toward healing the entire World!

            In that way Forgiveness is for US, though I believe it also has a resounding Psychic Force that echos throughout the entire Universe!

            I've also noticed folks who don't just struggle with it (and most of us do), but who actually cannot forgive, usually can't forgive themselves either.

            And that's a GIANT roadblock not only to breakthroughs & personal achievement & advancement in ALL ASPECTS of our OWN lives, but to both personal & Global Peace & Understanding.

            Grudges, misunderstandings, hatted, revenge, cheating, lying always lead to destructive behavior and sometimes...TRUMP! LOL

            Seriously, as a non-Christian (because I don't believe Jesus was trying to start any "new" religion: Only reform the one he was already in), but I am however a follower of Jesus Christ & of "Pure" (non-dogmatic/non-pantheistic unadulterated), Taoism.

            As such, I believe we only hold our own selves back, in status, by holding grudges, by not PRACTICING Forgiveness!

            And like ALL thoughts, we CHOOSE to engage in whatever POPS into our minds, and thus can overcome negative ones by Patience & Will & Practice!

            I CHOOSE to trade LOVE for Hate... (Most of the time): Its a GOAL ALWAYS!

            Because as Mahatma Gandh put it, "An eye for an eye, and the whole World is blind!"

            Our TRUE AUTHENTIC SELVES are only found through LOVE: For our selves & for others!

            "Love they neighbor as thy self" - Jesus

            "Embrace the whole World as yourself!" - The Tao, of Lao-Tzu

            And as you (humorously & cryptically) stated, "Forgive us OUR Tresspasses as WE forgive THOSE who trespass against us!"

            And the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as YOU would have done to you!"

            These are all my Watch-Wisdom-Words that as my teachers have told me, lead directly to what many call MIRACLES!

            No grudges, and you don't enslave anyone: Including yourself!

            Wu-Wei would add...

            No Masters - No Slaves!

            And think about this: Holding on to hurt & grudges allows thoughtless Perpetrators to become YOUR Master!

            BTW none of that enlightened philosophy is meant to be a Quid-Pro-Quo, but instead, Advance Thinking: The very essence of ENLIGHTENMENT!

            While following The Way on the path to forgiveness I found MY TRUE AUTHENTIC SELF!

            My Mom used to say, "Norman, those you're fussing over, that you hold on to anger & grudges about, probably haven't given you a second thought! Trust Jesus and trust yourself. Let go of it, and watch a transformative Miracle happen just for YOU; and possibly for them too!"

            What a blessing she was!

            God bless you & those around you, and may you do likewise!


        2. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

          Did you mean "LIARS"?

          I'd say forgive, but don't forget!

          Especially if it's Donald Trump you're talking about, or some similarly relentless liar!

          However, it's hard to forgive someone who is an unapologetic pathological liar; especially when their lies cause others to suffer or are otherwise intentionally abusive and destructive!

          1. Jim's Avatar Jim

            Yes Liars, my fingers don't always hit the right keys. It is hard to forgive period. We can try but to truly forgive I think you must also forget. Because if you think about it you have not forgiven the person. At any rate Norman we must agree to disagree. I have not heard HIM say anything yet that I can turn around and say he lied about that. Not saying he wont but I don't care what is written there are enough sound bits out there that if the president lies it will be played over and over again. So for now I will disagree that he is a liar.

  1. Jim's Avatar Jim

    Actually Minister Norman you make some very good points on your last group of comments. Yes he said she should have listened to him etc. If that is trashing her then yes he did. As for what he said to NATO that was way overdue. Does he exaggerate, Yes. That said I to am a news junkie however I do not keep up with twitter so I do miss out on the things said there. I guess maybe I need to start looking at the twitter feeds. Bush and Obama both said it but never approached NATO with the actual request to increase their spending. Trump has had the news media against him from the start and nothing will change as long as they continue to beat him down. in any event You brought up some interesting points.

    1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

      Actually Trump has had the News Media in his pocket from day one!

      He's received unprecedented amounts of coverage (verifiable because its quantitative), and more than several past presidents put together! Too many times it's just unfiltered news feeds of some appearance with little or no commentary afterwards; also unprecedented!

      Odd, the Press he regularly trashes actually helped elect him!

      Anyway, this morning, many of the conservative news outlets were more disturbed about Trumps pitty-pat with Putin, than even the very liberal ones. Trump caved in to Putin's take on spying & hacking our election, on poisoning Brittish citizens & on everything!

      But at least he got a soccer ball as a booby-prize! But he might want to have one of our intelligence folk (the ones he really doesn't trust over Putin's "Strong denial"), check it out before placing it somewhere in the oval Office as a Treasure!

      How do you SPIN ANY OF THAT!

      Its all on tape, no tweet that later disappears or print comments they can deny! Trump threw our entire Itelligence Community under the bus to curry favor with a despot!

      The WH today said (after he returned home, though you'd think that would have been to Russia), "Presdident Trump is very disappointed by the reactions to his Summit with President Vladimir (the impaller) Putin, but really does not understand the negative reactions of those he calls friends in his own party"!


      Country trumps "Friends" when it comes to Sedition & Treason!

      Our "president" siding with our real "Greatest Foe" (and Trump said that was the EU, both on camera & he tweeted it), so they're beside themselves trying unsuccessfully to explain it, and are negatively reacting like anyone who actually loves his country should react: With Scorn!

      BTW, its not that Trump asked the EU to pay their fair share for NATO, its how he did it and his later comment that, "The EU is now our greatest foe", and after again smiling to their faces and saying, "The EU is one of our greatest allies!" Not an "Exaggeration" thats a back stabbing LiE!

      Trump walked back his US Intel trashing this morning (well sort of), in one of his early morning tweets (and geez, when does the guy actually sleep?), but he just repeated his opening statement yet again, but this time without then trashing all of our entire intel community in favor of Putins "REALLY Strong denial" -- Which Trump said at that same Summit he believes over anyone in our own intelligence community.

      Actually, ALL of our Intel agencies, including the fully bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee now say "RUSSIANS intentionally hacked our Election, and specifically so Trump would win".

      So practically everyone is on the same page, except for Donald Trump! And Sarah Paylin thought she was "Rogue"

      To cap things off and further sow discord within the United States, and like a good (former) KHB Operative, Putin's parting shot was floating the already debunked lie (trying to separate us even further), that Hillary Clinton received 400 Million is illegal Russian Campaign Contibutions,

      Trump said nothing! But If she did receive that kind of scratch, where is it? Trump now controls all four branches of Government, and he can't seem to find it! Maybe it's stuffed in her mattress along with his brains!

      My Granny used to say (and I'm pretty sure its not original to her, but), "Keep an open mind, just not so open your brains fall out"!

      Good advice!!

      Jim, these aren't "Exaggerations" these are Very Dangerous LIES!

      Its time to pay attention, because our very Freedom & System of Government is under attack!

      Never in the History of the United States has a President behaved so gutterally in public, but even worse, none have ever alienated ALL of our HISTORICAL ALLIES, while heaping praise on our sworn enemies; until now!

      Trump looks like a TRAITOR!

      His OBSTRUCTION also speaks volumes: The SO-CALLED "Fake News" & "Fake Witch Hunt" has already yeilded 30 indictments, with more to come! And several past Trump officials have already peaded guilty or are cooperating! And for what, if its really all fake?!

      Too much smoke for just a dumpster fire!

      Trump's got to go! Either he's impeached and removed from office, or we Vote him out!

      Trump is dirty, and not just his politics! He's sown chaos & sullied the Office of President long enough!

      He is certainly not advancing "American Exceptionalism" or ideals in any way, shape, or form!

      Trump is sadly, a better promoter of Despots & Dictator States and their "ideals" than he is at Championing Ours, and he is certainly NO American Stateman!

      PS: Sadly the DNC "alternative" isn't a pretty picture either, but civility & decorum would be a welcome & refreshing reboot, and perhaps whomever it is will at least "ACT" presidential!!

      1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

        PS: Ignore the TYPOS, especially "KHB" -- Autocorrect thought it knew better than me, you KGB!

  1. Jeff's Avatar Jeff

    This is a sad set of affairs for many people but the United States is a nation of laws, laws that protect the citizenry. People who are here illegally are by definition ...criminals. What's worse is that some of these people, like Pastor Ramirez have been here for a long time. The question that has to be asked all the time he has been here, especially during his adult years, didn't he take steps to have a legal status? I can only imagine the media response if the President pardoned this man for supporting him in the election. This is clear, the Pastor broke the law and must now face the consequences. Taking him into custody is the same as taking anyone into custody upon arrest, it does not mean he will be deported, his case must still go before a judge and the details revealed and mitigating circumstances addressed. Jumping to conclusions and spreading rumors about someone, even the President is wrong, it doesn't matter what religion or faith you have, they all teach patience and truth, not spreading rumors. If this is your path, you are not teaching the right way. Since the process of taking illegals into custody has started, the vast majority have been released and put on the path to having a legal status, unless they have felony charges or other criminal charges, but the press does not report that. As Ministers we need to have the truth and not get people moving in the wrong direction. We may not agree with the policies of the President but the attacks should be on the policies and not on him as a person. I read some vial responses on here directed at the President however, for Christians this is wrong. The Bible tells us that our leaders are placed in those positions by God. To ridicule them is to ridicule Gods decisions. Be careful about this.

    1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

      I've already chimed in on this subject (and you can read that above if you wish), but I did not respond to one of the specifics of your concerns:

      Why didn't Pastor Ramirez seek naturalization, or otherwise turn himself in?

      I think President Trump (laughably), referred to that as "Self-Deportation"!

      Honestly ask yourself, WOULD YOU? Would YOU turn yourself in?

      I'm certain I would NOT - Under the same or similar circumstances!

      Imagine you are brought here as a Child, so this is the ONLY Country you know (and they are not Widgets or Numbers or Statistics: these are People we are talking about), and other people are threatening to take away the only home you have ever known! What to do?

      Even if you want to "Do the right thing" what is that? Short of self-imulation there is no guidance!

      Now IMAGINE that practically everyone around you, and 24/7 with conservative news outlets, and Trump non-stop, calls you Illegal & CRIMINAL & rapists & worse!

      Still coming forward?!

      The President of the United States calls you all of these unsubstantiated horrors, and you think you have a snowballs chance in Steve Bannon's mouth of NOT being deported?!

      YOU are told, you (and of course you understand your own Humanity, so YOU know they are not actually talking about YOU, but you also know they believe that they are), YOU who was brought here as a CHILD, broke the law according to them, and you should be prosecuted & punished for it, and then returned to YOUR OWN COUNTRY; a country that by now you can barely recognize as anything except for a place on a map, a place you wouldn't recognize as "Home" anymore than your neighbors would!

      How about now, still coming forward because honesty is the only reality that matters? I agree honesty trumps all: And these Human Beings are for all honestly intensive purposes "Citizens"!

      Too many "Dreamers" don't even speak the language of the birth country they are supposed to re-assimilate back into, that we would fain insist is "Theirs"!

      IMAGINE (use your imagination here and imagine it's actually YOU), Imagine the terror & threat of deportation "BACK" to an alien country for someone (just like YOU) who only knows and loves this one!

      Because that's exactly what we are talking about here!

      Compassion must come into play!

      One size never fits all: In POLICY or in LAWS! We must act as Human Being not legalistic Automatons!

      I believe DACA was and is the path forward! Converting it into a singular Amnesty for "Dreamers" as many call them is the right thing to do! These aren't criminals (though any that are, depending on the severity of the crime, should be deported), but what the vast majority actually are is frightened productive & contributing Americans without papers, who deserve to come out of hiding.

      Let's fulfill their dreams & let them continue to contribute to our society! Let's regain our own Humanity in the process!

      Ronald Reagan co-authored & signed a "Blanket Amnesty" when he was President, but failed to ask for or even encourage any real Immigration Reforms!

      So the Problem was just kicked down the road through FIVE subsequent Administrations now!

      DACA Amnesty leading to Full Citizenship is the right thing to do!

      Again, as Jesus used the example, put yourself in their place: "Do unto others as you would have them do to you!"

      Would you really be okay with being deported back to a country you no longer knew, and solely based on technicalities of laws that no child could possibly comprehend? And Im not asking if you wish it on "Them", Im asking if the roles were reversed, would you wish it on YOURSELF?

      Or would you actually surrender yourself and come forward during any of the hostile years since Reagan that have used this issue like a political football, and with zero attempts of solving anything?

      Would you REALLY volunteer yourself as an experiment or test within a debate that has offered zero reforms and NO kind of guidance for becoming a Citizen?!

      Honestly, I wouldn't, even though living like that would be a constant nightmare!

      We need to do this!

      Then we need real Immigration Reform, so that we never have to consider doing this again!


      1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        Again, Norman, the sheer volume of your acrimony argues against its accuracy. Just saying. Everything else being equal, shorter speeches are better.

  1. Konnie's Avatar Konnie

    For those of you citing "he needs to get in line" -- the reality is that there IS NO definitive LINE. That's the problem. The immigration system in this country is a quagmire of forms, high fees and a labrynth process of "one step forward and two steps back" that takes years to tackle. And even then, if you're lucky to get approved, you'd need to return to your home country and WAIT for immigration to process you and give you the go-ahead to return. Sounds great, but if you're country is war-torn or in political upheaval, well, then that's not very practical, is it?

    I have a friend who has been living in the U.S. legally on a VISA (he has to fly back to Europe every year to renew), and has tried to get his green-card but it's practically impossible. He filed for legal residence in 2006 -- he's still waiting.

    The ONLY ways anyone from another country can maybe gain residency in the U.S. without much issue if (A) they're lucky enough to be one of the recipients of the immigration "lottery", (B) they're wealthy and can pay an immigration lawyer to handle everything for them; (C) they have their U.S. based employer represent them and foot the bill for all of the fees involved.

    Also, stop and think: Do you REALLY think these folks want to leave their home countries and all of their friends and families there? NO.

    They do it because it's their LAST resort. And we -- the U. S. bears a HUGE responsibility for the "drug wars" going on in Mexico and Central America. Our citizens BUY the drugs, then our government SELLS the ammunition for folks in these countries to kill each other.

    We as a country are headed in the wrong direction, and I fear, that there is truth in that old adage: "KARMA is a bitch."

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