Tennessee is kicking off the new year by considering a bill that would restrict the ability of transgender athletes to compete as the sex they identify as, instead railroading transgender athletes into competing in a league that doesn’t match their gender identity or appearance.
Republican State Rep. Bruce Griffey's proposed House Bill 1572 would require public elementary and secondary schools in the state to "ensure that student athletes participate in school-sanctioned sports based on the student's biological sex as indicated on certificate issued at time of birth," with a civil penalty of up to $10,000 for any official who assists transgender students in competing as their identified gender rather than their biological sex.
No Consensus
The International Olympic Committee guidelines established in 2015 allow athletes who transition from male to female to compete in the women’s category without surgery. While the IOC has sought to toughen those standards ahead of the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games, it has encountered disagreements with the scientists involved.
NCAA standards for transgender athletes also shows support for transgender athletes. Transgender women - transitioning from male to female - can compete in women’s sport after one year of hormonal treatment, which includes testosterone suppression.
However, not everyone agrees it's a fair playing field. In a statement to the Tennessee Star, Rep. Griffey presented his case: "We are seeing more and more transgender athletes competing and posting victories in traditionally gendered sports competitions, and doing so to the detriment of girls and women biologically born female. Boys and men, due to testosterone levels, bigger bone structure, greater lung capacity, and larger heart size, have physical advantages in sports relative to girls and women."
Even the followers of this blog are hotly divided on the issue. In a past blog post, two of our ministers presented opposing arguments for how to approach transgender inclusion in sports.
Guided by God
The role of religious beliefs cannot be overlooked in the debate. Rep. Griffey is a member of the First United Methodist Church, an organization with strong conservative Christian leanings. Many of the proposed bills seeking to curb LQBTQ rights have been supported - even modeled - by faith groups and church organizations. The continuing saga over Drag Queen Story Hour remains a fascinating example of this influence.
Among the groups lobbying for change is the Congressional Prayer Caucus Foundation (CPCF), which has developed a collection of off-the-shelf pro-Christian “model bills” known as Project Blitz. With a stated aim to “protect religious freedom, preserve America’s Judeo-Christian heritage and promote prayer”, the group has helped bring forth some 75 bills in more than 20 states during 2017 and 2018, the most hotly contested of which include resolutions in favor of “biblical values concerning marriage and sexuality.”
With that in mind, transgender athletes and their allies say they can't shake the feeling that opponents are not _really _concerned about fairness. Instead, LGBT rights advocates argue, they're using it as a bogeyman in order to further restrict transgender rights and discourage folks from living a "lifestyle" that they see as inappropriate and not aligned with Biblical teachings.
What do you think? Do transgender athletes who are born male have an inherent -- and unfair -- advantage against females? Are Christian policy groups acting in good faith, or are they trying to legislate morality?
55 comments
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Angel
I agree and here is why. Transgender people don't "identify" with a specific gender, their minds are literally hardwired to be that gender. They did scientific studies on it. Their brain is one gender and body is another.But I feel they need to be seperated because it will increase the risk of hazing/rape. It would be no different then putting a female in the male locker room. We had this same issue in the male prison I worked at. Many of the males viewed her as female and trying to protect her was hard. We finally had to move her off the yard when another inmate started pimping her out. You can also go the opposite way. The females may be more accepting until they shower together (if they haven't had the operation yet) and others would view it as having a male in there because of the body parts. The only real conclusion I could see if having transgender teams. People are getting more acceptable in public, but when the clothes come off, it gets confusing. My daughter is transgender and she runs into similar issues.
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David C Doepner
Who here commenting, particularly in opposition to trans athletes competing in their preferred gender, has ever met a transgender person and had a conversation with them? Who here has looked at the medical science behind gender identity and the process of transition? Or are you making your judgements based on what you want to believe and your interpretation of Christian scripture? It really does sound like the latter. In most of these issues, particularly where the legality of anything to do with gender identity is being discussed, a religious argument would not have standing in a court of law. So who are you protecting and why are you twisting the basic message of "love one another", or "We are all children of the same universe", to exclude those already marginalized?
It's becoming more apparent that those unwilling to learn are setting policy based on fictions and misrepresentations. Don't mistake sexual orientation for gender identity. Don't mistake a cross-dressed man for a transwoman who has lost a considerable portion of her muscle mass because of the hormones she has taken to deal with the discomfort that began while still in the womb. There is only one transwoman who has managed to win a single championship, in cycling. All the rest have lost to genetic women who were better athletes. Before hating any more just do a search on the Science explaining what makes a person transgender. Or just keep using one faith experience to condemn people who only wish to be whole for the first time in their lives.-
Angel
My daughter is transgenderand it has nothing to do with "gender identity" nor does it have anything to do with sexuality. Their bodies are one gender but their brains are the other gender. This causes a conflict especially in more private situations, such as locker rooms and public bathrooms. If the transgender can afford the operation, this would be more acceptable, but most cannot. This causes alot of confusion for people who are NOT transgender. The truth is, gender in this country is based on physical gender. When you cross genders in a more private setting, this could actually cause more problems and could, and most likely, turn the transgender into a victim of abuse. I've seen it happen while working at a male prison, teams traveling together would be no different. Then, you also have to look at what the others say as far as size. If a male (transfemale) play with other females and is stronger or a larger build, this could be an unfair game or visa versa. Husband and wives. They will have a serious issue with a person with male body parts in taking a shower with their wife. Or the females will feel uncomfortable once the clothes come off. This has nothing to do with equal rights, this is what is appropriate and what is not. Many Euopean countries share bathrooms will opposite genders, but they also often have their own stalls or single bathrooms. This is not the case here. There has to be a balance somewhere. I agree with what you say but I also agree with some of the other concerns as well. Trnsgender's should live as they wish without fear or shame. But other's should also be allowed to be comfortable to take a shower while on tour with their teammates. I think society has come a long way, just some details that need to be worked out.
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Andrea Christina McGough
How is this even a religious issue? It’s completely unrelated! Science is science. If people are offended by male and female, let people compete under type A (bigger heart, structure, more male) or under type B (smaller frame, more female). Let science test them to determine if their body lets them compete as A or B. Problem solved- fair playing field, and no argument as to where you fit!
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Dorothy E. Cogswell
Is Tennessee a red state? If so, it figures
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Lionheart
Don’t forget that we are currently a red country, and very possibly will remain so for at least another 4 years due to very poor opposition, and the huge amount of success by the current party during the last four years.
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William Cureton Fox
Sports and other forms of competition should be strictly based on the best qualified people who want to complete. This eliminates the nonsence of all the various artificial and natural limitations.
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Rev. Elizabeth
They need to compete as their birth gender due to their body is made in that gender, not what their mind believes. Men are built stronger than women and they are built for athleticism. They are built to hunt and fight. A woman can be exceptional in any competition of her choice, but she will never beat a man who is exceptional in that same competition. He would have to be not exceptional for her to have a chance. It is physicality, not mentality. A transgender can compete in any other competition as the gender they choose as long it isn't physical. The women will not be able to beat a man unless he is not that good at the competition. I'm not being biased or have a phobia. I say live. let live. I'm being realistic. It's the way the bodies are predesigned. We have not changed from the beginning of time when men went out to hunt to feed his family. Women did too, I'm sure, but men had to be the stronger of the species. It only makes sense. Study the anatomy and understand.
Thanks for reading. God Bless. Rev. Elizabeth Arsenault
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Vern Dee Wall
Of course we have a double standard. It's because there are two sexes. "Transgender" creates four sexes, that's all.
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Albert A Hernandez
All this talk about "transgenderism" is just another sign of the End Times. I could cite Scripture to prove my point but I would be wasting my time. So I'll make it simple: God is GOD. Man is MAN. And Woman is WOMAN. Period!
"Even the atheist believes in GOD."---author unknown
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Stoodie Baker
I find it disconcerting that we indulge a mental illness as if it were factual. There are people that think they are animals: a dog, a wolf, tiger, etc. They "feel" it inside and believe it to be true. If someone walked up to you and said "I'm a fluffy kitty, because I feel like a fluffy kitty inside." Most people would dismiss this person as having delusions that don't mesh with reality, because they are clearly not fluffy, nor feline. So why is it someone can just decide they are a man or a woman when they clearly are not. Don't give me that bologna about gender and sex being different. By rewriting what we know of gender to a purely mental state of being, we reduce gender to some sort of shared delusion that we all must participate or be branded phobic. There are effeminate men, masculine women, and everything in between and I have no problem with that, be an effeminate male if that is what makes you happy, but don't expect me to entertain the pure fantasy that you can be something else just by proclaiming it to be true. "I'm Superman!" Nope, still can't fly.
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Robert H Donahue
Gender dysphoria is the psychological term for those who are physically of one sex, but psychologically feel they are of the other sex. This is not considered a mental illness. However, these people may feel under great anxiety, stress, depression and are more prone to suicide than the general public. These stresses are disorders that should be treated. Treatment can be through counseling and trying to provide a more accepting environment in which these people can live as they identify, hormonal treatment to better adjust their body chemistry to the gender with which they identify (testosterone suppression or testosterone supplements for example), or sex change surgery. Treatment does not involve trying to convince these people that their feelings are wrong. To say that these people are just proclaiming to be something, trivializes the seriousness of their situation. If a person thinks they are an animal, yes it would indicate mental illness. Not the same thing at all.
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Becky S Kienzle
Bigotry and Prejudice? My Word!...A male competing as a female has a biological greater advantage, a known fact. Speak to fairness. No woman, unless she has undergone testosterone therapy, can even begin to compete on a level playing field with a man. My friend, we need to be preserving the ways of the Bible and what God has taught us. Yes, we need to be tolerant and understanding. But, there are aspects of life on this Earth that have to have rules by which we live. Please take a moment and look deeply inside. Should you have some difficulty finding a true human perspective, try opening your Bible. Love n Peace...
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Frederick Ollie Aldridge
Each person is born the way GOD wanted them to be. The Devil is the one who told them to change. Those who do not follow God's word will suffer the consequences. A person who encourages anyone to change themselves from boy to girl or vise versa will feel the anger of God the same as the person who changed their gender identity. Choose your identity-- Heaven or hell --YOUR choice.
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Lionheart
Absolute indoctrinated rubbish, but thank you for your opinion.
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Albert A Hernandez
AMEN! I couldn't have said it better. GOD bless.
Albert A. Hernandez, D. Div.
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Lester Arwin Meredith
The consensus seems to be the same - a person born with the XY chromosome is a man. No amount of surgery or deep feelings or desires will change that. A person born with an XX chromosome will be a woman. That is the way it is. Gender separated sports have been around for centuries. There have been no problems with that until lately. This gender identity crossing is not a new thing. Dueteronomy 22:5 A woman must not dress to be a man nor a man dress to be a woman. The Lord detest those who do this. Even in the days of Moses, this problem existed. The Bible is very clear that homosexuality and transgender activities is an abomination and detestable before God. Now some will be offended by that statement. Don't shoot the messenger. That is what the Bible states. The bottom line, He who is seated on the Great White Throne will be the one to judge. He has already pronounced what that judgement will be as recorded in the Bible. That is what the Bible is for, Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth.
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flugo
'les': Right on! You precisely and accurately presented the facts. It's simple and logical And, when it comes to sports, 'fairness' is the overriding factor..
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flugo
'les': Well said! Right on!
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Karl Axel Lindström
possibly we should move away from gender segregated sport in general and in stead find some other way to compartmentalize people with different biological advantages or disadvantages.... a bit like light weight and heavy weight in boxing...
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Karl Axel Lindström
i think it may be fair to force someone to play based on the gender they where born as if they have the same biological advantage...or disadvantage.. but the correct pronoun should still be used...
I mean if you've grown up as a male then changed gender then you still have much of the same advantages in terms of strenght and physical build etc... so i don't necessarily think that is wrong..
it's a complex issue...
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Allen Nace
Absolute fair play. You may identify as you would like but if you were born a man , well, you're a man. Man strength and the result is "real" women end up not having a chance in womens' sports. In combat sports they get seriously injured. If born a man then compete as a man or have a tranny section where trannys compete against each other.
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Robert H Donahue
The competitive advantage has been shown to come from testosterone levels. I believe the NCAA makes decisions on which gender you compete against based upon those levels (not gender at birth) and it has worked fine. In Texas there was a high school wrestler transitioning from female to male who presented as a male and had male testosterone levels. The wrestler wanted to compete against males, but conservative Texas forced the wrestler to wrestle in the girls division. The wrestler went undefeated and won the State championship two years in a row. Lots of outcry that it was not fair (it wasn't). Some girls refused to wrestle and forfeited their matches. As to gender at birth, some people are born with both male and female sex organs. Again, testosterone levels should be the determining factor.
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Thunder
I look forward to a day when society matures enough to face facts about both psychology and biology. Maybe then we will stop conflating psychological gender with biological sex, and do the socially mature thing by creating a 3rd LGBTQWTF++ competition class. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not being cis-gendered. However at the same time, the temper tantrums and brow-beating society into self-delusion also needs to stop.
We should stop trying to force people to adopt a conception of gender which they don't identify with, and also stop trying to pretend that biological sex and psychological gender are interchangeable. So the logical compromise is to simply create a class appropriate to such folks. Or otherwise remove sex/gender as a distinction entirely and accept the fact that the majority of the time cis-men will be the dominant athletes. I personally think the former compromise makes more sense.
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David M Rose
https://www.attacktheback.com/transgender-mma-fighter-fallon-fox-breaks-opponents-skull/
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tuppennyblue
"...did all the surgeries necessary to become a woman." - I didn't know they had a surgery which could exchange all his Y chromosomes for X chromosomes. Truly a miracle!
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David Wayne Britt
We live in an imperfect world. I can completely understand how a transgender person would want to be able to compete in the class of gender with which they identify. At the same time, there is a biological reality whereby most individuals who are born 'biologically male' have a propensity toward greater strength and muscle mass. I understand this as fact.
I would think this inclination is a burden for any transgender person who would prefer to appear feminine. However, in the context of a physical competition, this biological difference is clearly going to preclude a level playing field, and give unfair advantage (or disadvantage) in most physical sports. In competitions where physical strength or body mass is not a factor, I believe competition should be open to transgender people. I believe Tennessee has an obligation to impose this law to ensure fairness and protect the rights of all competitors.
Vague concerns about 'locker room' issues are secondary, insulting to transgender people and fair-minded people alike, and obfuscate the core issue here. We really have to move away from a baseline assumption that transgender people are inherently perverts and rapists.
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Holly Perloff
I agree, athletes should have to perform under thier natural physical (birth) sex. A mans body is stronger than a woman, regardless of how they identify. I dont necessarily think this is a religious decision. As far as locker rooms are concerned, other arrangements should be made to accommodate all so that all are comfortable. Whether people like it or not, this is the way of the world today. It is happening and realistic resolutions need to be considered and put in place. I am sure if there was a female that could play football like a top pro she would be drafted. Now, she may not want to change in the same locker room as the males and that would apply to a male who identifies as a female. It seems rational to me. Now I am not saying the other team mates would like it.
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Ruth Veale
I don't think it's fair that transgender women (man to woman) should be allowed to compete in women's races, they already have an advantage with their body build. There should be separate races for women and transgender women.
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Robert Trent Chandler
If you have a dick or had a dick youre a dude. Same goes for genderless bathrooms in public spaces including schools. Male is male and female is female its simple. Gender fluid is BS.
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Richard Lee Cornell
I love to talk to females who want to be males. OK! But then you will be in the same locker room as they. Guys are not so squmish about walking around in the locker room bare cheeks as she will do. That she must accept it also that she will be expected to shower with them. Got to be one of the boys. The gay guys who like to shower might ask her to also join in. Being gay it should be no problem for her. Guys will be guys even gay guys. To the fathers out there you might want to explained to your daughter about guys in general.
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Richard Lee Cornell
I can run fast, but not as fast as the other boys. My solution is to be a feamle then I get to run against the other females. Then I will get the medals because I'm faster. Not only am I a female, but I get to share the same locker room with them, and even get to shower with them. It is good to change from a male to a female.
But if this State has a law that says only those born as males can complete aginst other males then I shall lose.
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Rev. Elizabeth
And then the fastest female loses because a male who can't keep up with the other males wants to win a medal more than anything, so change to a female, muscles and strenght stronger than teh strongest female in this catagory loses because of a mans self-esteem. Yeah, good reason to allow this.
Born a male physically, need to compete that way physcally. Born a female physically, she is not stupid enough to try to beat a male, so she will stay female just for that reason only.
This has nothing to do with what is in the head and how one feels the sex they are supposed to be. DNA got messed up and gave you the wrong sex organs. No reason to make a woman who works hard at her sport and is the best in her sport for a man who feels he is a woman to come along and take it away from her when his muscle mass and his build is better than hers.
Can people really not see this? Does this conversation really need to happen? Nothing we can do about how your brain makes you feel but when it comes to physical competitive sports, you have to compete with the sex you were born with. Here's the thing, work out harder and longer to get where you can win. Don't be so cruel and take away the best females performance. What is wrong with you?
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John D. Partin
Elisabeth S. Arsenault, does this people's "only competing with the sex you were born with" apply equally across the board in every area or is it just to be rigidly and unreasonably applied to sports alone? Because if it is going to be applied across the board equally, then women also don't belong in male dominated fields, either, and not just men or transgendered males kept out of competitions with women. Then, you can kiss all advances in women's equality with men over the last 100 or more years goodbye and their trying to conpete with men for jobs and in male dominated fields, instead of just competing with the sex that they were born with and being content to just be housewives, nannies, nurses, and do other "women's work" and you will find yourself in agreement with the male chauvinists who think that "women should just stick to women's work", too! You can forget about women's ever being ordained as priests in the Roman Catholic Church because that would be their not just competing with the sex that they were born with and their competing in a field that is "only for men". You can forget about any female truck drivers, police officers, martial artists, construction workers, bouncers, or women in any male dominated field. If men should not be allowed in any sports since they are physically stronger than women, women also, consistently, shouldn't be allowed to compete in any field with men, since they are physically weaker than men, if physical strength is the relevant consideration here. Otherwise, we are operating on a double standard. Read my post above again for more in depth comment on this matter. Attitude, perseverance, determination, relentlessness, and courage can overcome someone else's greater physical strength, since otherwise David couldn't have overcome Goliath and the other examples in my post above (without going through all of them again here!) couldn't have happened. If men who are stronger than women shouldn't compete with them, women who are stronger than some other women shouldn't compete with them, either, if physical strength is the only relevant consideration. What about the inspiration that is provided by weaker people's defeating stronger people, which wouldn't exist if all competitors always had to be equally matched in strength.
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Jim D.
What I find interesting is that all the men that left comments seem to be in favor of the Tennessee bill, and the one woman that left a comment is against it. Fascinating!
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Tom
Respectfully...this is a serious issue, and in no way should "religions" have any influence over the resolution...at their best, "religions" promote a degree of morality; they ignore ethics...there should be constituted a diverse group to discuss the issue, and try to come to a consensus, becakuse it is a problem if civil rights are trumped by laws...this is not simple, as the disparity between those born male, and those born female, is clear...a lot more thought and study must go into this issue...Peace...Tom B
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Blendena
The country I grew up in and loved....has gone.
How dare people set themselves up as high as our Lord and feel they have the right to condemn another human being.
It is amazing to me how this hate of anything different is rising and floating to the top in this country but I know why.
Shame on Tennessee -- religion beliefs do not belong in government making laws. I hope that the "other" people rise up and fight this bigotry and prejudice.
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Lionheart
Just curious as to which Lord you are referring to? Did you mean Lord Krishna? I know there are so many in a whole variety of religions. Just asking!
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Denise A Moody
This has nothing to do with condemning anyone. It has everything to do with fairness. Biology is biology. What you identify as is different. A biological male has physical advantages over biological females. That's a fact. Allowing transgender women to complete against biological women is unfair.
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Kenneth Kevin Johnston
I stand with Tennessee Man is Man and Woman is Woman. We are stronger than the opposite sex. If a man has surgery to become a woman he is still a man. He can't become pregnant and give birth to another human. Therefore he will always be a man.
If my options hurts anyone's feelings so be it.
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Paul J. Fumero
Using the Creator Force to further bigotry and prejudice is not in tune with the Will of God. As we are all children of his Creation, it would be saying, God you Screwed up! AND I know better. I would not wish to be in that position BECAUSE it places those who do squarely in the camp of the Dark One.
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Daniel Gray
how exactly can it be bigotry when its a medical and scientific fact? You really should have paid more attention in health Education in school as nothing you say or do is going to change the fact that you are born a specific sex and will stay that sex till you die. And if you want to compete in sports then you compete in the same group that you were naturally born into
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Eric Thomas
This legislation Affirms the Creator's Will by acknowledging the implications of His Creation in this situation.
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Lionheart
Our biological bodies are either male or female. Physically, the male figure has a stronger advantage over the female figure. It’s just the way it is. Well done Tennessee!
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Howard Pippin
Amen.
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Daniel Gray
Exactly how can this be classified as Transphobia? Men are made to be stronger then 99.9% of the women and due to their increased muscle mass, how exactly can anyone say this is fair to the female athletes when a man who wants to be a woman demands to compete with the women? They will win almost every time. Now how can anyone claim that this is right? Even the Olympics do not allow this. Now granted we are going to get arguments about this but the fact remains you are born a specific sex and no matter what body part you have modified or surgically altered you are still going to remain that sex until you die. I am sorry if this hurts someones feelings but medical science and factual science cannot be altered because of someones feelings. If you want to do sports and are transgendered, then join a transgendered sports league.
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Jim
I agree with you Daniel. I think that some of these guy girls are saying they Identify as a female just to be superstars on the field of competition. This is in no way Transphobia, it is what is right.
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James Peter Kaub
I must agree with Daniel's statement. That is fine that a man wants to become a woman or a woman a man; however, with that being said, they then should be competing in a league that will provide equal and fair competition, as IS NOT the present case. Do as your "inner self" dictates but compete in a league of your PEERS. I understand that the pendulum has swung far to the right, now it must swing back toward the center and become "balanced".
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Linda Miller
I do have to agree with you as well. I know this must offend some people, but our Maker made us . It would not be fair for a "man" to compete in a women's sport or vice versa. I simply do not have a grip on this transgender stuff. Now keep in mind, I would never ever be rude, condescending or harmful to any human being, no matter what they are going thru, however, I do have a right to say how I feel.
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John D. Partin
If the argument is that transgendered persons who were biologically born as males shouldn't be allowed to compete in sporting events against persons who were biologically born as females because they are stronger than the females (strength being the relevant consideration and determining factor), then, by the same standard, biological females who are physically stronger than other biological females shouldn't be allowed to compete against them, either, and we have to wait until we have perfectly and equally matched in strength competitors in either sex before we can have any sporting or athletic competitions. Good luck with that! Boxers and wrestlers are often matched against others who are out of their weight (and strength) class, but now, that would all have to end! Thankfully, David didn't feel that he was outmatched by the much stronger Goliath before going out against him and he defeated Goliath and took off his head!! Attitude can be the decisive factor in any competition and so it can be in competitions of biological women against men who have transgendered into women and are still stronger than those women, too. Many other examples of "weaker" persons or groups defeating the stronger ones abound in history and even today, which would never have happened and wouldn't be happening if all of these encounters had been limited to those exactly equal in strength---and the inspiration that they have given to the world wouldn't exist, either! Christianity's own example is of a "weaker" group's defeating the "stronger" power of the Roman Empire (until it gained power and became corrupted and worldly itself!). Samson was defeated by "weak" little Delilah, who cut off his hair, but it grew back and he avenged himself on the Philistines for their blinding him and was also the first entertainer who, literally, brought the house down! Christ defeated Satan, who was the "god of this world"! The list goes on and on and on! What all of these people in history and today have done in overcoming others' strength, any born women can do against surgically made women, but they will never know what they could achieve against them if the transgendered men are barred from competitions with them. "The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong". To believe otherwise is to go along with Ragnar Redbeard (author of Might is Right) and the Nazis, who believed that the race is to the swift and the battle to the strong, but. also died and were defeated, despite that belief. This "transgendered men shouldn't compete against biological women" nonsense is just more right-wing Redbeardian and Nazi sexism and homophobic bigotry!! God doesn't restrict people only to their biological gender, but they are what they are on the inside, too! Saying that "it's alright for men to become women or women to become men, but, please, at least, not in my favorite sports or some other activities in life and let's keep them out of those things" is still hanging on to your sexism and homophobic bigotry and trying to have your cake and eat it, too!! Men are women if they feel that they are women and should be allowed to compete with born women. Women are men if they feel that they are men and should be allowed to compete with men (as female wrestlers, truck drivers, bouncers, kung fu and martial artists, body builders, police officers, and many others already do). Many people aren't on the outside or don't appear to be on the outside to some others what they feel themselves to be on the inside, in other areas than transgenderism, and they are accepted in society or are becoming accepted. So, it is hypocrisy and a double standard for transgendered people to be singled out and not to be accepted in all walks of life or to be told "go away and have competitions just among yourselves, and leave us alone!".
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Rev. Elizabeth
Mr. Partin, I'm sorry, you are looking at this sideways. Yes, sideways. Women are built to have children and to nurture them. They are not as muscular as men. Their bones are not as big and strong as men. Now, even though they workout hard and build what they were blessed with, they can never equal or surpass the male body. Men's bodies are built for endurance and extra strength for they are the hunters, the providers for their families. We have not changed from the caveman days. It is nature, not nurture. The brain cannot say that because you feel like you are a woman or a man, you are built that way when your body makeup is of a man or a woman. It is impossible to change that aspect. You can have external organs added and removed but you cannot change the bone structure or the muscle mass nor the hormones that make us our sex. So, you saying a stronger woman cannot compete with women? Of course she can. She worked harder to get stronger so she deserves the win against her sex, females, not males. She may be stronger than some men even. She can compete against men if she likes, but doubtful she will win. But, the man is usually stronger at all times. No way an average female athlete can beat a man in a sports competition. The body makeup prevents this from happening. If you feel you are not the sex you were born as and you are changing the outward appearance to reflect that, then fine. That Adams apple will always be there even as a woman and that Adams apple cannot be removed to be a female. It is the difference of the way the body is designed. It is not a good fair challenge when you have men compete against women. A transgender is not the sex they want to be by bone and muscle. When their bones are identified in the far future, they will say this was a male, not a female. So, your theory, your long explanation above, which I could not read it all because the beginning of what you say cannot be and it was a sideways perspective. We call that nitpicking... Respectively being said.
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John D. Partin
Equality isn't a one-way street, all for women's being able to compete with and against men (which I'm all in favor of!), but not for men's competing with and against women. You can't have it both ways!! You have to take the bad with the good and what you don't want along with what you do want. My post before showed the long history of the "weak" overcoming the "strong" and so I won't go through all that again! Read it for yourself! "Big boned" women, "small boned" men, etc. None of that matters! The point of competition is to see who is actually the best, even (or especially!) when the odds are against one of them! If you can't stand the heat or long posts here and they are too much for you, stay out of the kitchen---and the blog!!
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Rev. Elizabeth
Your reply indicates the type of person you are; you know that, right? I can take the heat, I value my time on things that get results. Anyway, yes, women should compete with women only and men with men only, no matter what their brain says. My bad, I wasted valuable time trying to explain myself to someone who just doesn't care, has a one-trac-thought-process. You got your say, I got mine. I'm done here. I pray you have a wonderful life, considering on what is going on in the world today. God Bless
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John D. Partin
My post "proving", according to you, what kind of person I am and it actually doing that are two entirely different things!! You say in your post that you can take the heat and then immediately after say that this is the end of the discussion and any more heat about it!! Can you take the heat or not?! Because taking the heat isn't just my having my say and your having your say and that's the end of it, but going on with the discussion and following this to it's conclusion. I don't have a one track mind or just can't be convinced by you of anything just because I don't agree with you instantaneously after just one exchange between us! I meet closed-minded people in here all the time, but consider them closed-minded not just after one exchange with them, however!! I call them closed-minded after repeated efforts to get through to them and presenting evidence to them right in front of their faces that they are WRONG!!!! fails to get through to them and change their minds!! I'm entirely willing and open to be convinced by you, but the problem with that is that you actually have to be convincing and not just expect me after one exchange to immediately agree with you and say "Oh, yeah, Elizabeth must be right!". That isn't ever going to happen, but if you prove to me that people are only their bodies and not any souls inside their bodies, which would explain transgender people who are only being true to their inner selves, and that people are always only what other people judge them to be by their external appearances, and that the "weak" never overcome the "strong", despite the long human history of that happening, then you will have won the argument and convinced me!! Good luck with that! If you can't prove those things and just throw up your hands after one exchange and say "I'm done!", that's what I'm talking about in not being able to stand the heat and needing to stay out of the kitchen! Taking the heat and staying in the kitchen means being in this discussion for the long haul and to the end, until one side or the other proves their point and defeats the other! Anything less than that is not being able to take the heat and needing to leave the kitchen! God bless you with your life, too, if you can't do that and continue here, as I have against all the closed-minded people here!!!
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Elizabeth S. Arsenault, I don't believe that I'm looking at this sideways at all, but merely trying to take your side and the side of other women who believe in equality against the male chauvinists, who think that women are only good for "women's work" of cooking, cleaning, making babies, and pleasing men, whereas you (one of their own sisters!) take the side of these male chauvinists and share their attitude and view about women! Your post even starts off, after your comments to me, with "Women are built to have children and nurture them"!! That is exactly what the male chauvinists think and say. If your name were Edward, instead of Elizabeth, you would be entirely consistent in your statement and feel even more comfortable and at home with it!! Why is it up to a man here to stand up for your sex's equality with men, while you and some other women here take the male chauvinists' side and view in these matters?!! Besides, people's sexuality isn't based exclusively on their physical bodies because there are also the spiritual components of ourselves (our souls) and they also determine our sexuality, sometimes far more than our physical bodies do. If you don't discount completely the existence of this spiritual component (and then you have the problems of past life memories, near death and out of body experiences, Marian and other heavenly and demonic apparitions, and spectral appearances staring you in the face and contradicting you!), then this component also has to be considered and given its fair weight in this matter! "Judge not by the appearance, but judge a righteous judgment" Jesus told us (John 7:24). Judging people's sexuality exclusively by their physical appearances and bodies is judging them by appearances, which Jesus said not to do. If a woman is incarnated into a male body or a man is incarnated into a female body, isn't it really the same person inside that body that it was before? Of course, it is because the outward appearance doesn't change or eliminate the inner reality. Are you, Elizabeth Arsenault, still a woman when you wear pants and a business suit, just like men do, or do you stop being a woman and actually become just another man because of your clothing and outward apparel? Do all other women stop actually being women when they wear traditionally "male" clothing? Of course not! You still remain women! Why do you think and why should you think that it is different for a female spirit wearing the clothes of a male body or a male spirit wearing the clothes of a female body and that they aren't who they still are under that mere appearance?!! That is very inconsistent and self-contradictory on your part. Why would God make that "mistake" of putting a man in a woman's body or a woman in a man's body? Because it isn't a mistake, but is meant to make people stand on their own two feet and take charge of their own lives and become what we feel ourselves to be and more closely resemble that inner image in our outward appearances, too, instead of needing God to figure out and do everything for us!! Aside from transgenderism, all other people are what they are on the inside, no matter what they may appear ("judge not by the appearance"!) to be to some people on the outside!! That is you and other women knowing inside that you are very capable people and can do great things, even though chauvinists judge by your appearances that "you aren't and can't do the job"! That is black and other minority people knowing inside that they are the children of God, the same as everyone else, and are very capable people and can do great things, even though racists judge by their appearances that "they aren't and can't do anything except cotton-picking and low work". That is everybody!! That isn't "nitpicking" or a "sideways perspective" at all, but is just the truth, and I greatly resent your calling it "nitpicking" and a "sideways perspective" and feel sorry for you and hope that you will learn and understand better soon!! "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" also means: Don't judge people by their appearances when you don't want other people doing that to you and accept them at their own valuation, instead of imposing your valuation on them!! As for my post's being long, I don't give incomplete responses in posts because that doesn't actually respond to the matter and this is a big subject. If it is too much for you to understand, that is your problem, not mine, and I won't whittle it down to fit into your "understanding". It doesn't matter that transgendered men still have Adam's apples as women or transgendered women don't have Adam's apples as men or that bones discovered far into the future will be identified as male or female because, again, the physical body or bones aren't all that there is to us or what make us who we are on the inside!!