A group of Texas chaplains are imploring the state to reverse a controversial law which allows one group to serve as public school counselors: themselves.
Earlier this year, the Texas Senate passed Senate Bill 763, which allows chaplains to serve as school counselors in public schools.
Critics have lambasted the move as a blatant violation of separation of church and state, and a not-so-subtle attempt to inject Christian nationalism into the school system.
Chaplains: We’re Unqualified
Interestingly, it is some chaplains themselves who are opposing this new bill. They argue that serving as school counselors is a perilous box to open.
“Not only are chaplains serving in public schools likely to bring about conflict with the religious beliefs of parents, but chaplains serving in public schools would also amount to spiritual malpractice by the chaplains,” reads a joint letter signed by over 100 chaplains of different faiths in protest of the new program.
“Because of our training and experience, we know that chaplains are not a replacement for school counselors or safety measures in our public schools, and we urge you to reject this flawed policy option: It is harmful to our public schools and the students and families they serve.”
The chaplains argue that they are equipped to handle spiritual needs, but that they’re no replacement for a licensed professional trained in meeting the mental health needs of youths.
They say their training does not instruct them on how to properly work with children, nor does it prepare them for situations a licensed school counselor would be trained for: an active shooter drill, for example.
“We cooperate with mental health counselors – we do not compete with them,” the letter reads. It implores lawmakers to reconsider the measure.
Is Christianity "Infiltrating" Schools?
Meanwhile, other critics argue the bill has bigger – and more sinister – implications.
"I worry that this bill will lead to Christian nationalists infiltrating our public schools and indoctrinating our students," said one politician at the time of the bill’s passage. Another described it as a “Trojan horse” for evangelizing kids and helping to grow Christianity in public schools.
Opponents view the new policy as part of a broader campaign to forcefully inject Jesus into schools. They point to other legislative examples in Texas, including a bill which mandates "In God We Trust" signs in schools, and another which requires the Ten Commandments be placed in every classroom across the state:
Also noteworthy: a proposed amendment which would have banned chaplains from proselytizing to students or trying to convert them from one faith to another ultimately failed.
The Case For Religious Counsel
Proponents of Senate Bill 763 argue that having a religious leader available for students to talk to, consult with, and receive guidance from is a positive.
Supporters of the measure further argue that “putting prayer back in public schools” will provide myriad benefits. School chaplains could be helpful in preventing all manner of bad outcomes – from school shootings, to drug use, to anxiety and depression amongst youth, they say.
They also point out that schools can opt in or out of allowing chaplains to counsel students at will, so it's not required, it's simply allowed.
While some chaplains will undoubtedly be counseling students this fall, it's certainly notable others oppose the measure on its face.
What are your thoughts? Is this a blatant attempt to inject Christianity into schools, as critics say? Or will the presence of chaplains help make kids safer and more spiritually healthy, as proponents argue?
100 comments
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There are those religious people who value their faith because it guides them to being better people.
Then there are the religious people who exploit the Bible as validation of and authority for their paranoia, bigotry, and prejudice - and these are inevitably the ones who want to run everybody else's lives.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
I am a psychotherapist. I work for a private non profit, and in our area, we are lucky: almost every public school district in our area, including a few charter schools (a horror story when it comes to services, special needs, etc) , and even a few church schools have at least one if not more trained mental health professionals embedded in the schools. By this I mean educated, trained and state licensed individuals , providing an array of mental health services to literally thousands of kids and families through the schools.
I have been embedded in many of our area schools over the years, sometimes 2,3,or more schools over the years, and I have been serving the school I am currently based for almost 12 years.
It takes an entire school's neighborhood, from the people living there, to administrators, teachers, psychologists, school social workers, guidance counselors, and multiple school partners providing medical, dental, eye care, mental health, food pantries, mentors, tutors, student scholarships, after school programs and all kinds of things too long to include.
But everyone involved is qualified to play the part, either hands on or connections to involve even more school partners.
I had, for many years, worked in my current school with a former priest who was a clinically trained, psychoanalytically oriented therapist who did tremendous work with our schools kids.
But he never pushed his personal beliefs on the kids. Because as a therapist, it's the client who is the focus, not Jesus or whomever one wants to bow down.
The Texas legislature and its backers have their own agenda, and it is neither the welfare of the children nor the welfare of chaplains. For the legislature its a cheap win-win: get christian counselors in there, and some may actually donate their time and we might get others for cheaper than vetted professionals. And, chaplains liability insurance is certainly much less to pay for than trained licensed professionals.
While I am convinced that this Texas mess violates separation of church and state, and there are a number of affiliated and diverging interests here, like money... unless someone is highly skilled and trained and licensed as my priestly friend and now retired co-worker is, the chaplains have no business in a school.
I agree with the group that feels the Texas legislature is putting chaplains, students, parents, and schools at risk, whether the agenda is stealth Christianity, or just being cheap bastards who use being cheap to justify being right wing.
This is a no winner. Hopefully no kids or families will suffer any harm. There is this thing called law suits especially if unqualified individuals stray out of their "scope of practice" (let's call it.) Very serious. Very brutal. The school administrators and districts will smell like roses when their attorneys have finished, and the chaplains will be tossed under a bus if not into jail.
Don't do it....
tk
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BuKhari RaHim MuFasa
let's say all that you say is true and that they don't belong. It seems in your post that you worry about the money issue and not the counseling one. they are not there to minister to anyone like you are not there to tell anyone how to live their live. But in some way, you do, and you can't say you don't .after all that what you went to school for right? in today's world there is no need to throw around that church and state thing it was thrown out the window along time ago. what we are dealing with here is a do what you want kind of existence and God is in the way. i have seen the work that you people do first hand. the schools have you all over the place and yet kids or still killing kids. you may need a little help from a place you don't want it
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Ryn Ingalls
BuKhari RaHim MuFasa,
If you paid attention, Daniel was actually worried about the counseling issue. He even had an example of a former priest with counseling credentials as one of the few people that would be within the appropriate "scope of practice" in this situation.
Scope of practice is why we have school counselors, social workers, psycologists, psychiatrists etc. Each one of those careers are in the mental health field but their training and experience is usually different. The theological and spritual counseling training of chaplains is not mental health counseling training of any kind. Additionally, if a minor is having problems and they are not Christian for any reason, they are less likely to seek help from a chaplain. The title of chaplain is interchangable with Christian in the vernacular. Children from other religions or atheist families are less likely to feel comfortable with a chaplain.
Now, to the constitutional issue. Just because the church has become more and more enmeshed in our government, does not mean we should give up on the First Ammendment. We cannot begin to disentangle the current state of affairs if we continue to allow things to get worse. For those who think this country was founded by Christians only, you are incorrect. Many of the founding fathers were deists. Muslims were also here only at the time they were known as Mohamadens. Judaism was also represented as well as people who practiced the old ways that had been driven from Europe. Therefore, when the writers of the Constitution wrote the First Ammendment seperating Church and State, they meant it. Simply because we focus on the history of one group does not negate the existence of others.
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Michael Holland
Counselors and religious leaders are two separate entities, the counselor doesn't have the knowledge to preach or run a church and religious leaders do not have the training to be mental health counselors. I wouldn't want my lawn guy to clean my teeth, just an example! If the religious leaders want to become counselors let them get the training but indoctrination to their church beliefs cross the line! Tax the churches!
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
I would be very wary of allowing a religious zealot to be a school counsellor due to the danger that they would attempt to indoctrinate those they were supposed to be helping.
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John
They are not qualified to offer the range of counseling that a professional school counselor has at his/her disposal. Last I recall school counselors were required to have malpractice insurance. What company is going to offer that.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but no school counselor is required to have malpractice insurance. They are not even required to have a license or degree in that field. I would say that almost 99.9% of them were and are just teachers, nothing more.
So if you are going to demand they have malpractice insurance then there also should be the demand that they actually have a degree in the field BEFORE they can be a counselor
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
When Gray makes any statement with such certainty it should be questioned. This is the FIRST result that came up when I searched ‘Do most h.s. Guidance counselors have training?’
High School Guidance Counselor Educational Requirements
To become a high school guidance counselor, you must have at least a master's degree in counseling, and most schools require that you follow a program specifically in school counseling.
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Brien
Thank you Dr. Zerpersande for your response to Dan. It seems that every time I try to respond to him ULC admin deletes my response. I can only assume that he is protected somehow.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Brien,
The mods here like to keep the comments moving and productive. I am confident if you had comments censored, it's simply because they felt they did not add anything to the overall discussion.
If you want your comments posted, you just have to say them in the right way. DG shows that you can be nasty as you want as long as you throw in something that sounds authoritative. I'm not saying for you to be DG - I doubt you've had his years of practice - but I am saying by looking at what he gets posted it shows you how to be rejected less.
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Brien
Sorry Ken, I must disagree. DG has made some vile, viscous, and false claims all in support of violating basic tenants. I have yet to see any of his remarks deleted. I stand by my statement. As far as the topic in question, DG seems perfectly willing to decide for me what my children should be exposed to. I disagree with that in the strongest terms possible. I do everything I can to not allow toxic into my kids lives. I may not be able to stop all of it, but I will do my best to stop most of it.
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Daniel Gray
Just because my factual statements offend you, does not mean they should be removed. If you want to say they are not factual then prove it, otherwise its nothing more then your OPINION
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I understand, believe me.
I understand DG is a toxic voice - but this is the 21st century. It is time we ALL had a conversation. I, for one, welcome the opportunity.
Disagreement is fine - but WHY do you disagree? DO YOU have a stronger case? That is what it's all about now. For this reason, I respect DG's perseverance, even if I don't agree with it. He has to explain why he continually fights against people's own will, own direction, own self-definition. He has to explain why he thinks HE defines the universe, and nobody else but the like-minded. He has to substantiate why anybody he disagrees with HAS to explain their life to HIM.
So chin up Brien, and keep fighting the good fight, exemplifying what you value in your thoughts and actions. Have patience, and above all, understanding - but never lose sight of the goal. It could be worse - you could be at war with all the rest of the universe, literally.
With the invention of the internet, we are now finally able to meet the rest of humanity face to face - at least virtually. It is shocking - but not as shocking as it is to them, I feel. This is why they work so zealously to force the world into their vision of it.
They will lose. Time's endless marching never ceases. The least we can do is help them to understand so they don't die of old age clueless.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The moderators delete my posts at times too. Not so much recently as in the past. Odd because the comments made by some of the more delusional characters on here seem to get passes with ad hom attacks. Maybe they tattle?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I probably have half a dozen censored a week - and it's probably a good thing. =D
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Many people dislike being labeled as delusional even though religious beliefs are the very definition of such. As for being ignorant, everyone is ignorant to some extent as nobody knows all. But being labeled willfully ignorant SHOULD be embarrassing. Evolution and cosmology are examples where most people have been schooled in the basics. Instead they rely upon a 5000-year-old compilation of superstitions from Bronze Age desert goat herders. They re willfully ignorant, again by definition, and should be embarrassed for exhibiting such beliefs.
Could this post be yanked? Likely only if the offended individuals report such.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I don't care what a person believes. If they get a charge out of living in a world of make-believe, I say go nuts. ;)
But when they take their "Holy Beliefs" and decide they are going to run other people's lives with them, that's where I draw the line. It's utter simplicity - would they like someone else dictating to them what rights they have or not based on some other 'Holy Book'? They would be frothing at the mouth - and rightfully so. Yet somehow this basic tenet of civilization eludes them when it comes to their own behavior.
That's when I issue my gentle reminders.
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Daniel Gray
Nice try, but all we have is your word for that. You gave NO source or link that could be checked. So maybe its YOUR post that should be questioned
According to https://onlinedegrees.bradley.edu/blog/how-to-become-a-high-school-counselor/ you need far more then a teaching certificate to be one....and in 62 years I have yet to see even ONE have more then a teaching license. I have lived in NJ-OH-Mich-WV-Washington state-Hawaii-Alaska-NM-Colorado-Texas Before and during my military career so I would bet that I have been in far more states then you can ever hope to be in.
Nice try but major fail
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
https://learn.org/articles/What_Training_Do_I_Need_to_Be_a_High_School_Guidance_Counselor.html
Easy enough to check. All I did was copy/paste the info I posted and there it was. You didn’t know you could do that? Try that with the nonsense SOJ posts as facts and you get nada,
Don’t give an airborne rodent’s anal sphincter muscle where you have lived. Also have as much automatic respect for military service as I do cops, so those were non sequiturs.
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Daniel Gray
Sure you did....as nothing you are claiming even matches what was said there
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ServantOfJudgement
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ServantOfJudgement
John,
The problem with the field of psychology today is it was fathered by a sex crazed coke head. In other words, a ball tripping coke sniffing daddy blaming ego maniac founded the field our socalled professionals and experts swear by today.
I'm not sure if you see a problem with that or not. Almost always the patient's woes lead back to something someone did to them, usually the parents. That is the go-to cause. That's why school teachers, councilors, board members and the teachers unions don't want parents involved with their own children. The parents are the the problem, at least to the coke head founder of modern psychology. Indeed, they even inject fake memories in children as was the craze in the 80's. No, I don't think the experts are very expert, not at all, they wreak of big pharma nowadays.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
Being naturally polemic is one thing. Deliberately misinforming people is another. Whether or not a state makes it mandatory for a school counselor to have liability or malpractice insurance, not having that can be catastrophic for a counselor.
If I had children who were school age in these times, I would ask and make sure teachers and counselors are insured because that means they are insurable.
Who wants their children exposed to a counselor who is not insurable?
https://www.nbcc.org/Assets/Advocacy/NBCC_Insurance_Learning_Module_Transcript.pdf
https://www.schoolcounselor.org/Membership/Proof-of-Insurance
You may have to debate this with yourself. I won't make time for horse biscuit nonsense.
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Daniel Gray
Then you need to stop posting horse biscuit nonsense. not one employee of a school system carries their own personal insurance, the school system carries it for them as part of their employment.
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Gary Stephen Lowden
I have spent a career in professional liability litigation. What does the counselor do when the school says that the counselor acted outside the scope of the job description? They are left without coverage or representation. I have seen that happen frequently. So while they may not be required to have their own insurance, they are very foolish if they choose not to.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Why do “christians” and others continue to lie about prayer in school? Gee, aren’t they supposed to be honest?
I agree that chaplains should not be tapped to be school counselors.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ Think of the thousands upon thousands of years the colorblind feverishly denied the existence of red and green. Then one day.....”
This is what science can do for you. It explains our world. Doesn’t happen all at once, step by step. Religion has fought science all along. And lost. Galieo spent the last years of his life under house arrest for teaching/discussing the earth was not the center of the universe, but instead orbited the sun. Turned out the church was wrong. The church doesn’t like evolution, but these days it’s impotent to force its ignorance on others. Additionally you have no idea that the colorblind ‘feverishly denied’ the existence of colors they could not see. Makes for a good sermon though, doesn’t it?
“Surely there must be the spiritually blind living among us.” Wanting to believe something is true doesn’t make it so.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I read that too - a real facepalm moment. My Dad was colorblind, and he never denied anything. Instead, he intelligently coped.
But I knew from talking with SOJ previously that it would be pointless to discuss it - so I passed.
You're a brave man Dr. Z!
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth
SOJ said: "Perhaps one day, as the colorblind learned of their condition, the spirit blind will learn their condition."
Kenneth said: "My Dad was colorblind, and he never denied anything. Instead, he intelligently coped."
I'm glad your father learned of his condition. Knowing of ones condition helps them intelligently cope with it.
You guys are saying everything I'm saying. Literally you're repeating everything I'm saying. Literally you're agreeing with me while arguing with me.
I say science takes time, you say no, science takes time. I say people learning they're colorblind brings peace in knowledge, you say no, learning your colorblind brings peace in knowledge.
I wonder if you've been confounded with your own wisdom. That's what it's looking like. I wish I could help you guys as much as you've helped me.
Truck on guys. Truck on. Wow.
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ServantOfJudgement
Right z that's exactly what ive been saying. You might be too smart to get it though.
I'll try it this way: Stuff takes time and stuff like that. Maybe this way:
Let's not go off half cocked.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
As a ULC bishop, with two DD’s, doctorates in metaphysics, epistemology, freethinking and the like, I’d like to remind my ULC fellow brethren, that the mythological Jesus, Zeus, Jupiter and Mohammed’s teacher, never had what it takes now, to become a guidance counselor in the public schools of Texas.
The ULC’s founder, my fellow bishop Kirby J Hensley, opined decades or so ago, that as Doctors of Divinity required no knowledge of anything, to obtain a DD from the ULC, so should anyone else, who wanted to become a ULC counselor, and, that’s, that.
So either Texas hires ULC chaplains, to become guidance counselors in the public schools of Texas, or no counselors from any other church, should be hired either.
PS, Today’s the Holy Ghost’s birthday.
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Colleen McAllister
William Dusenberry- Not sure why you feel the need to post all of your fairly meaningless titles but you are no more qualified than the rest of us in the ULC. You are also wrong about Jesus being a myth. You may not believe that he is Divine but he is a real historical figure.
It seems that you have a rather exalted view of yourself however.
As to he issue of Chaplains Texas has gone over the edge. School Counselors need to be trained.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Colleen, if you know that Jesus ‘“is a real historical figure” — it’s reasonable, to assume, you can provide reliable, first-person accounts, and Roman, Jewish, or credible (non-religious) sources, to back you up — which you can’t, nor could (or can) anyone else, so don’t even try,
But you’ll try, nonetheless, but won’t let your fellow ministers know what you couldn’t find, because you’re the same as all other “Jesus was a real person’ers” you get embarrassed to admit that you’ve been bamboozled, by St, Paul, who created the Jesus you know about, to get even with the Jews — who consider Paul (AKA, Saul) a huckster,
PS, unlike you, Colleen, I’m proud of my ULC titles, with their related credentials, and if you were part my congregation, I’d excommunicate you, ASAP.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
big difference between someone being real and someone being divine. I recommend you watch the movie that sheds a lot of light on your jesús, it is a docudrama on the life of a man contemporaneous to jesús. the movie is called, The Life of Brian. quite a moving story if I say so myself and I should point out, there is a ton of evidence that Brian was a real person
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
W. Dusenberry makes a good point. For a guy that was walking on water, creating a low-cost, rapid process of winemaking, raising the dead, curing lepers, and other notable acts there just isn’t any historical evidence. Ditto for Moses.
But glad to see that you don’t approve of chaplains as counselors. Your degree of often delusion seems limited to believing in the first place..
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Lionheart
It’s possible someone with the name of Jesus did exist, but there’s very little evidence, if any, that any of the stories and tales about him were real. It appears there was no one that witnessed any of the said stories wrote about them. Weird…right?
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
Sorry william but you have been repeatedly told there is no such thing as a ULC Bishop so that is a myth and a delusional claim from you to puff up your imagined reputation and failing to do so. So if you want to continue to lie then I am going to start calling myself the ULC Pope and since that is a higher rank then your fake Bishop title, I hereby order you to cease and desist with your fantasy titles. And since I am a ULC Pope I outrank you.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You might as well claim to be a Pope as such would be commensurate with your general degree of delusional thinking. If ‘thinking’ is even an appropriate term to be used in a statement regarding your posts .
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Daniel Gray
so now you are upset that I am going to use the same delusional statements you made against you?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Isn’t that sweet, trying to use a new word lije ‘delusional’.
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ServantOfJudgement
Z
Typo again....
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yep. Ai do them on purpise now.
(One of the above mistakes is an actual typo and the other was intentional mistake that happens quite often. Guess which is which.)
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Daniel Gray
Guess you are upset when someone uses a word that fits your perfectly?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
There are thousands of ancient gods that we both lack belief in. In each and every case you would state yourself as not delusional due to said lack of belief. And as I would say of myself.
But you have this one ‘special’ ancient god. And a book. So your belief here is justified? Aren’t you special!
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Daniel Gray
So what, which ones are venerated today? DO you still see any religion worshiping Zeus and the ancient Greek or Roman Gods? Or the ones in Ancient Egypt or the ones in Ancient China? Nope. SO whats your point exactly if you even have one?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Point is, the Abrahamic god is just another god. Just another example of ignorant humans trying to explain the world they live in. You, for instance.
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Daniel Gray
according to you and that is your opinion, but nothing you have said is based on fact
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Mr, Gray
I have my ULC Bishops credentials available for your scrutiny; so on your next venture, to Tulsa Oklahoma, arrangements could be made for you to see, in person, my Bishop’s credentials.
You’ll never see any evidence, that your Jesus ever existed though, not even in Tulsa Oklahoma,
Are you known as a “Doubting Daniel?’
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ServantOfJudgement
William,
So you've got some papers that say you have the same philosophical qualifications as a truck driver. Big deal. What do you think truckers do all those hours they drive? They think and contemplate life. That's what we all do, it's nothing special. Look where it took you, you're out worshipping grasshoppers and toadstools. I don't mean to be disrespectful to my elders, I apologize for that, truly. It's just that when I meet paper pushers like yourself I end up walking away disappointed in their lack of basic understanding of, well, everything.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If you have such a LOW opinion of the ULC and it's mission and it's ministers - why are you here SOJ?
It seems to me someone with such a high opinion of himself wouldn't choose to use his valuable time just hang out with a bunch of toadstool worshippers and paper pushers. It seems to me you wouldn't be satisfied with being a big fish in such a small pond. It's a real mystery.
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Kym Hartmann
Could there be both in schools to serve two different needs in the students and teaching staff, both spiritual and physical ? Sadly there have been so many massacres of teachers and kids in schools and I really think that both are needed because the school community, parents and first responders look to these for help and comfort at these sad and terrible times. Just my thoughts. Minister Kym.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
how about this, first bring in some muslim and satanist chaplains, see how that plays out and go from there. or are you one of those people who feel it should ONLY be xtian chaplains? let's see how bigoted you actually are
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Or since (according to Gray) SCOTUS has DECLARED that atheism, which is actually a LACK OF BELIEF, is now a religious belief system make it muslim and atheist.
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Alexander Arends
Not exactly a good idea. While non-believing counselors can do just as much harm as trained clergy, I foresee many issues arising due to this legislation. I think the legislators passed this with little forethought.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
the point right now should be that Texas has thorough, comprehensive educational and testing requirements in order to become a licensed, professional counselor. the fact the legislation passed shows that the children are NOT important but instead, getting jebus' stanky sandeled foot in the door is what matters. the mental health of the children are of no consequence to x tians. it's about the jebus stank foor
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ServantOfJudgement
JJ,
Medications have a thorough trial period of 10 years demanded by the experts and professionals from last century. 3 years ago the entire scientific community except for the kooks decided to abandon this wise and agreed upon principle. Let the general public be the live trial I suppose. So says the experts.
Experts can be bought, pushed and cancelled. They will agree to the flavor of the day from the twit of the year. Expert opinion has been rendered "out of date" by the experts. Expert opinion has been cancelled and replaced with frothing mouths speaking lunacy.
These days, the last thing I want in my ear is the opinion of an expert. They're quite mad ya know.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
WTF nonsense are you going on about? this must be some cristofascist conspiracy theory
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I quite agree SOJ. I don't believe in experts either - that's why I take my car to a plumber and my taxes to a chef.
https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/study-finds-large-gap-in-excess-deaths-along-partisan-lines-after-covid-19-vaccines-introduced/
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ServantOfJudgement
Lol! Nice Kenneth.
An expert changed my brakes. My wheel fell off during morning rush headed to Detroit airport. Changed my life forever. An expert cut the plumbing too short under my sink, I fixed it with proper plumbing. An expert wanted to destroy both of my wife's thyroid glands when only one was bogus. I demanded to only remove one. I was right, the expert was wrong. She needs no meds. I have many more but you get the idea. I'll stick with my assessment of the experts. Just some friendly advice, it's ok to question the experts Kenneth, you just might be wiser than they are, don't reduce yourself.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I've noticed something about you SOJ.
Your life is ruled by exception.
Look around you. How much do you suppose was actually created by amateurs? From the computer you're using to the car you drive to the home you live in and countless other examples. I guarantee, all accomplished through applied expertise.
But you know of SEVERAL instances where you were right and they were wrong, so therefore they are all wrong! WOW.
You do the same thing with your religion. The outright lunacy, error, and ignorance portrayed in the Bible - unwaveringly stated as FACT - is mind boggling, but you find a few instances where what is stated MAY have a logical basis, and then you claim everything in the Bible is true! Wow again!
I honestly don't know what to say about that. I'm beginning to feel there's not much to be said about it.
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Rev. Rory
When would a full time religious leader even have the time to be a full time school counselor? Does Texas want to fire people that have this experience and replace them with a chaplain? Are they going to get paid and get benefits and join the teacher's union? Can a parent demand that their child have access to an accredited counselor and reject a faith based counselor?
To become a school counselor in Texas, you must meet the following requirements: (past requirement) Earn a master's degree in school counseling or a related field from an accredited institution Complete a state-approved school counselor preparation program Pass the school counselor certification exam Have two years of teaching experience as a classroom teacher Complete an approved educator preparation program The type of master's degree depends on the school counselor preparation program and can generally be completed at the same school. The average salary for a school counselor in Texas is around $61,100 per year.
Anyone can go to their own church and seek counseling. Will those fired school counselors be hired by churches? Of course not. They won't be considered "qualified." As an ULC ordained reverend and teacher, I would technically "qualify" under the new Texas law, but I in no way agree with this. I don't see Texas allowing Muslim, Sikh, Jewish, Hindu, etc. clergy into their new counselor positions. It looks like this is a law custom made for Evangelical Christians. I'm a Christian and not anti-Christian, but Texas has it wrong. Sorry.
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Regina Chevron Addington
I do not see this ending well. The legislators of today were the children of yesterday; and don’t live like the children of today. The chaplains are also the children of yesterday. There is a generational shift in thinking, socializing, and believing. School counselors are a reactive resource, they help after problems arise and someone reaches out for help. How many chaplains are able to counsel students that may be LGBTQ+ in a way that helps them deal effectively with the challenges of being this way? Or cyberbullying? Without harming the children further? Because school life was different in the chaplains’ and the legislators days.
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John R Liming
Chaplains in public schools automatically insure the school with a chaplain becomes a religious institution and yes, infiltrating the school system would be a tactic of christian nationalism so let the school boards decide and let us Christians imitate Jesus in saying "My Kingdom is not of this world... give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's." Keep religion out of public schools or allow religion into public schools. It is a matter for participants to decide and for others to pray about.
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Wyatt Reynold Palmer
Chaplains absolutely do NOT belong in public schools. The idea that untrained clergy will replace trained counselors is insane.
Unless schools will be hiring a panel covering all faiths, and no faith, it violates the constitution. If the only chaplain available is from 1 faith, then the school is de facto endorsing one faith.
Churches don’t have science advisors to point out when they’re teaching nonsense. And schools don’t need to teach children about Jesus.
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Jason A Bradford
This is horrifically moronic idea. Religious figures (chaplains, priests, pastors) have absolutely no place in a public school. Period. If you want a chaplain, priest or pastor in the school in your child's school; that's what private religious schools are for, not public schools. Religious indoctrination should be exclusively what parents and churches are for, not public schools. Public Schools are not and should never be churches. Period.
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Thomas Robert Joseph Vanko
Public schools are no longer staffed by teachers, they do now and for some time have been replaced by " classroom administrators that only present what the admin and union have approved. Faith and religion should only be taught by the Parents of their children and ordained Clergy. Having public schools teaching religion is an infraction of separation of church and state.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Faith and religion should only be taught…after naive’ little children, have reach the so called age of reason, which is supposedly the age of 18.
Any religious brainwashing and/or indoctrination, inflicted before a child is supposed to reach adulthood (21,for drinking alcohol) is a very serious form of child abuse — which is easily identifiable, when done by the parents, of littler kiddies, who march to different drummers than we do.
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Pamela Kay Waters
NO! Only if the school is a catholic or Christian school
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Danny D. Maynard
Voluntary means they should attend services/classes/training/grooming off school campuses entirely. We did that when I was in public schools in the 1950s and 1960s. No laws or constitutional provisions were broken with that approach.
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ServantOfJudgement
If a chaplain says he's not qualified to council, he's not a chaplain, throw him to the curb quick and now.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
at least you are reliable and consistent. so no, chaplins are NOT qualified to be school counselors according to the State of Texas' own requirements. so, it's NOT about preaching fairy tales to children, scaring them with storys of horrible demons and hell. it's actually helping them work through life, life issues and laying out their future paths. chaplins can only burn sage, candles, ring bells, touch little children impurely and claim to know the mind of gawd
From here: https://online.tamiu.edu/articles/education/become-a-school-counselor-in-texas.aspx
"According to the Texas Association of School Boards (TASB), requirements to become a school counselor in Texas include completing an approved educator preparation program, passing the school counselor certification exam, earning a master's degree of at least 48 hours in counseling from an accredited institution and having at least two creditable years of classroom teaching experience. Candidates are also required to pass a national fingerprint-based background check."
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ServantOfJudgement
JJ
I said if the chaplain felt he wasn't qualified, not you. If you think a chaplain will preach fire and brimstone to a atheist child in need it's reasonable for an atheist councilor to rail and obliterate a child's spiritual beliefs in the process of preaching atheistic healing. I have a very close acquaintance that completed her bachelor degree at a local university. They definitely rail and shame any Christian in the class as part of the class. I don't think you atheists are aware of the hatred and venom spewed from you towards Christianity and it's members. Some are equal opportunity faith haters though. They attack anyone that doesn't believe as they believe, it's a human condition. Atheism is a belief rendered to a theory that relies on hypothetical data which actually renders it to a hypothesis, technically.
School councilors will always preach their faith no matter what it is. I don't have a problem with an atheist councilor that's qualified according to his measure and I don't have a problem with a chaplain that's qualified according to his measure.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
so you have decided that the great state of texas's requirements are unimportant and irrelevant? because my argument here is that unless a person meets those state requirements, the can not be a school counselor. has nothing to do with religion, has everything to do with Texas State Requirements. assuming a person completes those requirements then professionally (which chaplains are not) they would know to keep their own beliefs to themselves...hopefully. therein lies the problem, too many xtians can't help themselves from inserting their beliefs into whatever they do. and also, hire the satanist and the muslim first, see how that goes over. like a fart in church is the common expression
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Aaradhya Devotion
What chaplain you know that does that should be reported to to state and not be allowed to be around children. If the chaplain is walking in a healthy path then why not counsel children to guide them in the way to go. It's not about forcing religion on children it about helping them heal and understanding reality. Not trying to teach the fairy tales. Not miss guided information.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
There's too much danger a chaplian would attempt to indoctrinate the children. Why else would a person be a chaplain?
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
as a good x tian I can see that your reading comprehension sucks. did you not READ the part about Texas' OWN requirements to be a school counselor? you just think because someone is a chaplain that means they can do it all. NOPE! NOT according to texas, which is who we are discussing here
and yes, that is the entire reason some in texas want to allow 'chaplains' as counselors so they can bring in that mind-evil BS gawd jebus and hell nonsense. seriously, take some time to reach AND understand instead of just barking all about your nonsense stupidstitions
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Aaradhya Devotion
Yes I did read understand the assignment as a chaplain you council married couples and members who need it. This is not a debate. Some where in my statement you have become triggered. Take a deep breath relax.You still thinking from a religious standpoint.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
typical, attack someone by saying they've been triggered. not triggered here sparky just fed up with a hole xtian holy rollers who actually demand that their religion be the only one tolerated.
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Nicholas J Page
Let me know when there fully qualified to serve as councillors it takes years.
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Aaradhya Devotion
My opinion on this situation I believe it will help Father these kids in a more spiritual level to think more logically about themselves and their surroundings and being aware so they can continue to put their best foot forward and not make irrational decisions but that's just my opinion.
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Rev. Rory
Have you ever worked with kids and teens? I have and I do now. What advice will a faith based, untrained "counselor" give a 14 year old that says "I think I'm gay" or "I'm pregnant" or "I'm abused at home." Religious counseling about putting "their best foot forward" comes from parental and church teachings. Once a child is teamed up with a counselor in a school setting, something has already happened that must be addressed. "You are going to hell" is not advice or guidance. It's a religious point of view.
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Lionheart
When you say “spiritual level”, whatever that is, are you referring to them being indoctrinated into something where we have no real understanding what is meant be spiritual level. Would’nt it be best to teach them how to think, using logic, reason, and critical thought, rather than teaching them what to think?
I hope their education doesn’t involve getting them to talk to a wall, floor, or ceiling, in an attempt to convince them they are talking to some sort of deity by doing so.
🦁❤️
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
‘Spiritual level’?? Nonsense warning. Keep your religious views to yourself. Doing so should be a major way to ensure your job security.
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ServantOfJudgement
Think of the thousands upon thousands of years the colorblind feverishly denied the existence of red and green. Then one day.....
Surely there must be the spiritually blind living among us. They all can't be lying when they say there is no God can they? Some must truly believe such nonsense, that life created itself from unliving, unguided and unplanned nothingness into flawless reproduction for billions of years, unstoppable. Perfection from nothing with no direction is a breathtaking miracle even God knows nothing of, nor does science for miracles do not exist to science. In this way, science and God agree.
Perhaps one day, as the colorblind learned of their condition, the spirit blind will learn their condition.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Enjoy.
https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/study-finds-link-between-brain-damage-and-religious-fundamentalism/
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Merlin
Separation of church and state for any publicly funded schools.
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Hadmels Rafmil De Frias
A school can have a chaplain but it cannot replace a guidance counselor, especially if the chaplain is an unlicensed one. I recall when I was appointed chaplain of a hospital, in the HIV/AIDS ward, I had to be licensed and it took me 2 years to get the license in a program sponsored by NJ. So when dealing with children and youth the licensing should be even stricter and harder.... now in a public school to have a chaplain isn't it like proselytism...? also all faiths can have chaplains or are those only Christian Nationalists aka Evangelicals..?
The role of a guidance counselor is necessary, the issue is that the counselor is guiding the kid toward education and educated individuals are overwhelmingly Democrats...
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Pastor Harry
YES
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Carol M. Anaski-Figurski
YES It's a great idea. It may actually devert disasters & promote wellness adding a chaplain, minister to schools. Bring back prayer & manifest god's goodness in the world.
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Kathleen Jones
I have to admit that I was sadly amazed at some of the comments here, although everyone has a right to their own opinion. With all of the troubled kids in the world today, would a chaplain in the schools really make things worse or is it possible that they could improve our children's lives? Just something to think about. No need to respond to my post to argue for or against. I am simply giving you a question to ponder.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Having one of them in a school you think will help kids these days? It all starts at home with the parents teaching RESPECT which most kids have no idea what that means. Counselors in schools does not work , so why would a church member. If they do not have respect for bus drivers, teachers, other kids etc. Think about it.
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Humanism Clergy Linda
Hell No! It's not up to state or federal government to push religion on to the citizens. Parents are responsible for teaching or not teaching religion to their children. Government must stay out of the business of religion. If churches want to be involved in government they need to pay taxes to the state and federal government.
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Raymond Furr
It will do some good for the school it's will lower the crime in the school and bring the school prayers back they need God in their life as well.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
No it won't. All that it'll do is increase bullying and actions of raw HATE toward any student who's "different" and encourage bullies to be even more violent towards students who already are having trouble fitting in.
All it's going to is increase the rate of suicides.
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Chrystal Lacroix
If they allow one religion, they need to include them all OR allow for one person to be open/accepting enough to allow for teaching/guiding for all religious beliefs out there in the classroom. You can’t be biased and only ‘inclusive’ to JUST one set of beliefs. It doesn’t work that way because not everyone has the same beliefs. You’re going to run into problems and this is why it was eventually excluded. It’s fine to teach about world religions, which should be done anyways in schools, especially public schools, but different to be offering guidance in the area of religion in schools. You’re also treading on a fine line once again when the religious beliefs being guided for in school may not line up exactly with those at home.
I know that we have already had our discussion on this. My position has not changed. Has anyone else had a change? Parents are the ones that should be teaching beliefs. If you wish your children to have a religious education, then you have the option to send them to a religious school. You cannot place religion in a public school. Religion by its very nature is discriminate against one type of people or another. I am not arguing that point it is just a simple observation of the way organized religion behaves. Because of this, and other points, religion should not be taught in public schools. Public funded institutions are for everyone, regardless of stature or belief. I do not object to parents seeking out religious council in a private setting, not in public school.
Well said, but the delusional fundamentalists on here beg to differ. The more rabid of them will drag out their inane opinions until a thread gets so narrow that only 2 to 3 words fit on a line.
I can see where you are coming from, I think schools should have councilors that are trained and not ministers. But when I was in school, back in 2017, we had a minister come to our school before school started and after school was over. We had a bible study in my classroom after school and before the first bell. Growing up in that environment I think it would be ok for something like that have some kind of religious study that you can voluntarily go to before and after school.
Your comment is thoughtful, but I must disagree with clergy on school grounds. Let me clarify, There was instances some years back that have been quietly shelved. A Christian minister was granted permission to do the very thing you speak of. Now when a member of the Muslim belief applied for the same permissions, they were denied, the reason cited was the Muslim activity did not fit the schools culture. Of course, this turned into a slap in the face of the school district in question, and resulted in all religious activities banned from public school grounds. If one religion is allowed, all religions must be allowed. It is logistically impossible and no school district has the money nore the time to monitor this. Let the public schools focus on teaching the subjects reading, writing, math, sciences, history. Peace ✌️
I believe in the separation of church and state. There are too many religious groups and denominations for schools to be able to provide (nor should they provide) instruction in each and every one.