When churches sing songs on Sunday morning, they pay royalties to the original authors or owners of that particular piece of music. But many slave spirituals, a mainstay for church choirs all across the country, have no known author, estate, or descendants to pay royalties to.
One Boston church hopes to make that right, and has come up with a clever way to pay their dues for their use of slave spirituals – literally.
Righting Wrongs by Paying for Songs
It was after the murder of George Floyd in May 2020 when church leadership at United Parish in Brookline began reckoning with their use of spirituals largely composed by enslaved Africans on plantations.
The majority-white church grew increasingly uncomfortable with singing those songs, knowing that, unlike other songs performed in the church, the original creators never received money or credit for their art.
They looked at the Black Lives Matter sign in their church, and wondered if they were living up to that ideal.
“What can make this right? What can make this not feel terrible? And how do we get through this?” minister of music Susan DeSelms recalls pondering.
They decided that they can’t fix the past, but they can create a brighter future.
"Today, we as a church will begin the practice of collecting ‘royalties’ for the spirituals we sing and worship,” DeSelms announced at a recent sermon. “Whenever we sing Negro spirituals, we will collect an offering that will support the development of Black musicians.”
Because the original authorship of most slave spirituals is lost to history, they’ve decided instead to pay it forward, and uplift the next generation of black musicians. They’ll be donating the ‘royalties’ to a local youth non-profit, Hamilton-Garrett Music and Arts, which is dedicated to the “development of Boston’s next generation of innovative artists through the celebration and preservation of Black music.”
How to properly pay homage to slave spirituals has been an increasingly big topic of conversation in churches across America in recent years.
Some congregations have brought in historians to give context to the lyrics, while others have invited musicians to describe how the slaves wrote the music. But this is likely the first time a church has actually paid royalties of a sort for singing spirituals.
They wanted to lead by example, hopeful that other churches across the country will follow suit.
Reckoning With the Past
Although they may be the only church paying royalties for spirituals, they’re not alone in reckoning with the sins of the past.
In 2019, the Virginia Theological Seminary announced a $1.7 million endowment fund for slavery reparations, hoping that it might be the first step in beginning to atone for their own slave-supporting past.
And in 2020, one historic NYC church announced that they were going to set aside one-tenth of their church budget to provide reparations for black New Yorkers.
Whether it’s in the form of royalties or reparations, churches across the country are trying to do their part to right America’s greatest sin. And it appears the summer of racial upheaval in 2020 has made this an even higher priority for many congregations.
Still, not everyone agrees that monetary payouts are the right way to reckon with slavery. As one church leader was quoted saying, "individuals are responsible for their own sins, not for the sins of their father."
What do you think?
93 comments
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John D. Partin
Carla, you are in very serious need of a psychiatrist yourself, judging from all of your idiotic posts in here, and so shouldn't be telling anyone else to go to a psychiatrist!! People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!!
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Ashley Thompson Brown
It would appear that this post and the (ugly) comments was hi-jacked by a minority. Though they were entitled to their opinions and views I would be concerned for the safety and security for the people who try to procure their services as a minister.
It really would have been interesting to have had a sensible discussion on the subject.
Perhaps ULC admin should consider reminding all who post that to have (sometimes heated) discussions is healthy however decorum should still prevail. Otherwise it puts the Ministry in a poor light.
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John D. Partin
Ilmenheru Terikson, every faith tradition in here is saying things that the other faith traditions don't follow or want to hear a word about, and that doesn't make each one "an insular minded enemy of our ministry". It isn't right to single out one faith tradition for calling it "insular minded enemy of our ministry". Either our ministry is for all faith traditions to speak as they please or we need to stop saying that it is for all faiths, and just say, instead, that it is only for Pagans or Wiccans or Satanists or atheists. As it is, we are all ULC ministers in good standing.
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Mark Edwin Currier
LOL. I guess as long as it's their money and not mine.
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Glen Dean Pollard
Only the people to the far left liberal think this is even feasible.. Just plain ignorant To blame a problem on us from ancestry. That we had no input to. You wont get any of my money nor my support !! Or as they say a " A fool and his money is soon parted ! "
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Shirley Ajayi-Carroll
It doesn't make it right, nothing can make it right. It's not like we can go up to a white slave master from yonder years and say," you enslaved my great, great grandma now pay me for her wages that you took!!
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Greg Formoe
I think if a church gives to charity, that's great. Will it change anything in the past? Nope. Will it appease anyone? A few perhaps.
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Weldon Joe Horton
If my dad, or mother, committed a crime, how am I responsible? The whole idea of multi-generational reparations is at variance with logic and sanity.
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Douglas Stephen Saldivar
I don't read the comment often, but when I do, I am really saddened by all the name calling. Disagreements are ok, they are good, but why not present rational, knowledgeable arguments for your beliefs rather showing so much anger. Calling people insulting names may make you feel superior, but what does it accomplish ? You cannot convince anyone that your ideas are right by calling names. I learned that when I was eight years old. I am surprised that some of you folks never learned that.
I am convinced that the USA is being torn apart by anger and not by principled, well thought debates and conversations.
""We have to face the fact that either all of us are going to die together or we are going to learn to live together and if we are to live together, we have to talk,” Eleanor Roosevelt
"Beware of darkness" folks.....
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John D. Partin
Douglas, I agree with you that some name calling, such as racist or religious epithets and insults or insulting and undeserved personal terms for people are wrong, but what about just calling a spade a spade and telling the truth about them? Not name-calling to feel "superior" to anyone, but honest names for people to wake them up to the truth about themselves, as Jesus did. Jesus called the scribes and Pharisees whited sepulchres and a brood of vipers, which was just telling them the truth about themselves, and said "you are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do" and asked them "how shall you escape damnation?", which could and should be said to and asked of many people here and in the world, too! I don't believe that we are required to be more loving and considerate toward other people than was and is the most loving Man who has ever lived, which we couldn't do, anyway, or stop telling them the truth, just to spare their feelings, and forget about the good of their souls! "Peace at any price" (truth, justice, true love for people and brotherhood with them based on right and not just feelings) isn't actually peace.
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Nathaniel Joseph Merritt
This is silly, just as paying "reparations" to modern-day African Americans for slavery is silly. (No living African American was ever a slave and I was never a slaveowner!) Hey, my ancestors were Welsh. Any Brits here I can sue for wars against my people? I have suffered horribly because my ancestors were killed by the British.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
No but I sure in hell will vote for him again since he still is the legitimately elected president.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
You need a roll of toilet paper. Alot of """"coming from your mouth.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I wouldn't say I'm anything, Waldron. I just simply am. I am what I am and that's all that I am. I'm Popeye the sailor man. Toot! Toot!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I wish I knew the words to Kalenda Rock. All this talk has got me to feeling very spiritual, and makes me want to sing!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
They'd have to pay me a lot of money to sing any Christian songs, not the other way around.
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Rev. Dr. G. Waldron
I, like some, am sort of shocked at the ignorant (or should I say stupid) comments on the subject of slavery and blacks in general. There are a lot of godless commentators on here who feel compelled to say things that most Christ followers abhor. Yes, there are some who say they are Christians who follow the godless crowd in such topics. You can say you are a lamb, but if you like wallowing in mud and squeal like a pig; you are a pig.
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Lionheart
I think you will find that those who suggest they are godless is mostly because no one on earth has yet been able to come up with demonstrable evidence that any of the worlds gods, that people suggest they follow, actually exist. They only rely on faith, which of course we all know that no amount of faith makes anything fact.
As Bertrand Russell once said: "Where there is evidence, no one speaks of faith'. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence."
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
So, by your own quote here from Bertrand Russell, "Where there is evidence, no one speaks of faith", you don't have the evidence of "a mindless universe running itself", which I have asked you repeatedly to send me in a peer reviewed paper along with an example of a driverless and not remote controlled or computer programmed car driving itself and you haven't sent them, and so you should be calling atheism a faith, since that is what it clearly is!! "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"---Hebrews 11:1. That is the kind of "substance" and "evidence" that you have for "a mindless universe running itself" and for "prayers not being answered by anyone", which is more faith than I could ever have for them!! So, why are you, who have a more unrealistic and unreasonable faith than Christians do, criticizing our faith, since that is the whole pot factory's calling a single kettle "black"?!! There is a substance to some things that are hoped for and evidence for some things not seen, but "a mindless universe running itself" and "prayers not being answered by anyone" don't qualify for that substance or evidence standard, since that is reserved for things that can be achieved and become the truth, sometime, which excludes them!! Overweight people are right to believe that they can lose weight by dieting and exercising and to believe in that as yet unseen reality, since they can do so and have done so. Slaves and people under oppression by Communist or Nazi or other dictatorships are right to believe that they will be free again and hope and pray and strive for that as yet unseen reality, since it can and will happen and has happened many times in history. Other people are right to believe in the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, since they can be achieved and be seen, someday, but no amount of your faith in "a mindless universe running itself" or "prayers not being answered by anyone" will ever make those things true!!!
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Stoodie Baker
Oh geez, there is so much wrong here. Where to even begin? You don't understand burden of proof or the idea of atheism at all do you? It's ok to be ignorant, but to get up on your pulpit and loudly bang on your ignorance drum is something else altogether. Atheist don't "believe in a mindless universe running itself" as you so eloquently put it. We reject the premise of a god due to lack of evidence and when someone asks "Well, how did the universe form then?" We say "I don't know." I don't know is a perfectly acceptable response, things we know for a fact now where not known during the time of the bible. However, the answers they came up with were "We don't know, so therefore god!" The people of the world explained the changes from night to day, thunder and lightning, rain, the seasons, every natural phenomenon by plugging in some god. We now know the scientific explanation for these events based on observable facts, not some one-size fits all god explanation. Using god to explain things we do not know is intellectually lazy. "God created the universe and governs all within." Stop. Cut. Print. That's it! No need for anymore discovery, exploration, experimentation, we have a definitive answer. Instead, we shrug and say "I don't know, but I'm going to keep looking for evidence to explain it." IF there were evidence that supported a god being then I would gladly accept it. There is not, so I reject the claim. "Faith is...evidence of things not seen" I have not read many more duplicitous statements than that. Faith is it's own evidence. Ooookay, that is grossly fallacious, but sure. You go on to tout things like an overweight person having faith that diet and exercise can help them lose weight and oppressed people can get out from under an oppressive rule, as synonymous with belief in a god. This is clearly false equivalency. Both of your examples have evidence to back them up. Believing in something that has facts and evidence to support that outcome is not "having faith in the unseen." It is a well established fact that if you eat less calories than you burn then you will lose weight. I do not need to have blind faith in that if my doctor tells me to do that to lose weight. If my doctor told me to pray for a slimmer figure then that would require a huge amount of faith and prompt me to seek out a more competent doctor. The bottom line for me is this: mental health is important. Prayer and belief give some people a better outlook on life and help them get by in their day to day. If that works for you, great! You can believe whatever you want to, it's your life, live it the way you want. Just please don't confuse faith with facts, the two are not synonymous, no matter how much you use the bible to support itself. Personally, I reject the bible as evidence of anything other than some Iron Age+ people had some stories to tell.
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John D. Partin
Stoodie Baker, there are only two alternatives about the universe: there is a Mind behind it running it or there isn't one. If there isn't one, atheists who say that there is no God or no evidence of any God have to explain how things are being synchronized, calibrated, coordinated, and maintained in the universe, when that would require a Mind to do all that and mindless matter and natural forces couldn't ever possibly do all that, and not just "take the fifth" and say "I don't know" when you demand answers from religious people for their beliefs, and "I refuse to answer, on advice from counsel, because my answers might tend to incriminate me". This "burden of proof" business is a two way street, not just a one way street, and if Christians have to tell you why they believe what they do about God, Jesus, etc., you also have to tell us why you believe that there is no God and what is doing His work in the universe "while He is out of town" and not just cop out and evade the question by saying "I don't know". Why are you believing something is "true" about the universe and don't even know why you are believing that?!! Would anyone believe in any other idea or vote for any candidate or issue and not even know why they were believing or doing that, and what would we usually call someone such as that?!! IDIOT!!! is what we would call them!! We know that you want to keep this "burden of proof" business very one-sided and overwhelmingly lopsided and slanted in your favor, but that isn't fair or reasonable or realistic or going to happen!! Come up with your evidence for your position that there is no Mind behind the universe and either put up or shut up, as I have told someone else in this blog, too, and am now telling you!! My evidence that there is a Mind behind the universe is that none of these laws and interconnection of them for its operation could possibly be happening without that Mind!! So, where is your evidence that contradicts that evidence, not just to your own satisfaction, but to my and other people's satisfaction, who haven't decided beforehand that "there is nothing to prove" and "nothing could ever possibly prove it", rendering any "investigation for evidence" over before it even starts and a farce!! People can lose weight by dieting and exercising, but that is no assurance that they will do so, as millions of failed cases of losing weight around the world can attest, and still need FAITH!!! that they will succeed and not just the logical facts that dieting and exercising can reduce weight in order to succeed at losing weight. People can overcome slavery and oppression by dictators, theoretically, but that is no assurance that they will do so, and they still need FAITH!!! to help them achieve that goal and attain that reality as not yet seen by themselves. Do you have any plans or dreams about your future, which aren't obviously manifested yet, but which you HOPE and have FAITH will happen and which that HOPE and FAITH will help you to achieve?!! So, why do you say that Christians are "wrong" to practice what you yourself practice?!! The Jews also had faith in returning to their ancestral homeland while they were exiled from it for thousands of years, and that faith helped them to attain that goal and the formation of the State of Israel. Your not believing in the Bible because "it came from the Iron or Bronze Age (as some say)" is an irrelevance, since truth is truth, no matter how old it is, and there are other ideas from that same Iron or Bronze Age that you and other "modernist" people have no problem with, such as basic Democracy, from ancient Greece, and many other ideas, and so it is just picking and choosing for you to single out the Bible for rejection. More later, because there is a 5,000 word limit on these posts.
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John D. Partin
"Oh geez, there is so much wrong here". But as an atheist, you have cut yourself off from being able to know what is right or wrong by closing your mind and eyes to the light of God. So, you have no way of knowing that anything is wrong. Just as you and other people can't read or see anything without worldly light or else a worldly device, such as night vision goggles, so you and other people can't see spiritually without the light of God, Whom you deny!! So, you are all stumbling around like blind men, with the blazing light of God all around you, and so don't know what is right or wrong!! You say that you "know scientific explanations based on observable phenomena" and yet you have the observable phenomena and logic right in front of you that the laws and interconnection of them for the operation of the universe couldn't possibly happen without a Mind behind them, and yet your atheism says that "without that Mind behind it" is how it works--- with the opposite conclusion staring you in the face!! Because God is inconvenient to you and would shake up your whole little world and make you rethink everything, you say "there is no God", as the fool has said in his heart, according to Scripture!! But, according to you, you are the "scientific and reasonable" people, while Christians, who believe in mindfulness coming out of mindfulness, are the "unscientific and unreasonable" people, which is totally inverted and upside down "thinking" on your parts!! No more than I would believe someone who told me that he read a book or looked at a painting or anything else with the lights out, in the dark, would I believe you or anyone else who tells me that you "know what is right and wrong" in the darkness of the world without the light of God to be able to see that, since that is only spiritually discerned and understood. It is impossible for you to do!! That renders all the rest of your post ignorant and you banging on your drum, as you blindly and wrongly claim about me!!! You yourself would see the necessity of people's being spiritually enlightened, instead of only "thinking" carnally, if you were at the mercy of Nazis, Communists, serial killers, gangs, sexual perverts who wanted to do all kinds of sick things to you, or other spiritually blind people, and we Christians just see that same necessity for the whole world that you would see just for yourself in that situation!! Spiritual enlightenment is necessary everywhere for all of us!! You could be convinced of the existence of spirits by the same route that I recommended to another person here and that is by experiencing them for yourself through paranormal phenomena, and let them prove themselves to you!! When spirits are possible, the Great Spirit of God is certainly possible and exists, since that is just logical and following suit in our thinking.
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John D. Partin
You have more faith in your "mindless universe running itself" and "prayers not being answered by anyone" than we Christians have in our beliefs, since our beliefs are based on mindfulness coming out of mindfulness and something coming out of something. So, why are you criticizing our faith when you have a more unrealistic and unreasonable faith yourself, since that is hypocrisy and a double standard on your part?!! "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"---Hebrews 11:1. The Jews believed in the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen while they were waiting for the return to their ancestral land for thousands of years for the formation of the State of Israel, and their hope and faith helped or caused that day to come, without which it might not have ever come. So, some belief in the substance of things hoped for and evidence of things not seen is right and good, and there are many more such examples, but no amount of your atheistic faith will ever make the mindless universe start running itself or prayers not being answered by anyone!!
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Those christians always feel a need to be guilty about something. Most of them seem like self defeatists. Not only that, be but these are focused on the wrongs of others. Maybe it's a way for them to avoid looking at themselves, and seeking to make amends for their own wrongs. Maybe some of them even think they are fooling people into believing they are good people.
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Lionheart
I’m sure that you too are close to being a godless commentator if you don’t believe in the deities of Thor, Vishnu, Krishna, Brahma, Dionysus, Athena, Hermes, Poseidon, et al, to name just a few. I’m sure you have atheistic views on pretty much all of those, as I do, so if you do, you and I have a lot in common.
Would I be correct in saying you believe in that other one that’s listed in what is called the Old and New Testament? I’m sure you know the one I mean, the one that never condoned slavery, and is supposed to have changed the color of a man’s skin for killing his brother…that one. I know, it’s a crazy story…right? Spoiler alert, people actually believe in it though, and even believe a woman was made from the rib of a man. As we are both Doctors, we know that’s not true…right? Please tell me you don’t believe in that story and give me some hope for the science we share.
🦁❤️
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Reverend Kurt
Easy answer... Go to Pirate bay and download whatever slaves songs you find.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Or Kurt, why not download songs by Paul Robeson like Nobody Knows The Trouble I've Seen, Ol' Man River, Shortening Bread, or maybe even Fat Li'l Feller With His Mammy's Eyes.
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Rev Frankie PG
The thought of reparations for slavery is hilarious. How did all of this slave stuff start? Was it something the colonizers of the Americas just came up with or had it been around since biblical times? How did the colonizers get a hold of slaves? Is it true that people would just go into Africa and kidnap them or is it true that African tribes would sell off their undesired? If it's true that it was the tribal leaders (whether they were African or American Indian or Hispanic or white🤯) how do we know that we're not giving reparations to descendants of those tribal leaders? Here's are a couple of things that we do on our: 1) Anthony Johnson, he's super significant because he was the first BLACK man to not only own slaves, he was also the first AMERICAN to legally possess a slave😵 2) Slaves didn't have a racial qualification, as a matter of fact being a slave was not discriminated against because of your race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation or any other means.
So how do we know who is really entitled to any form of reparations? Even a slave could've been a decedent of a slave owner or seller. So give to organizations like BICOP, BLM, HBUs, etc.? It's really white pity. Giving to an organization that actually supports MLK's dream and desire of not discriminating based on someone's skin color but rather by the content of one's character, is what will create more peace rather than division. It will create more harmony that spite and it will create an environment of incision rather than delusion.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
very well said but we know these idiots feed on their emotions rather then the organ between their ears.
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Rev Frankie PG
@keith- all of its are lost sheep at points in our lives. As good Ministers we are there to help guide them... with or without that muscle lol
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
lol
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Ilmenheru Terikson
FPG, your posts indicate you are severely ill mentally and in need of treatment, possibly even in need of being contained and medicated for the safety of society around you. You are not a minister you are a threat to human life.
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Rev Frankie PG
Hello Ilmenheru, I welcome you to provide a valid argument regarding my post. All you've said is hyperbolical. As a matter of fact, I'm a medically retired Marine Corps Military Police and Air Force Security Forces Sergeant, that has spent over 30 years in government (local to federal), serving the people of this great nation. I am third generation American, so there might be positions that I'm missing. Feel free to elaborate?
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Rev Frankie PG
Reparations, the thought of it for slavery makes me laugh. Anybody know of Anthony Johnson? First legal slave owner in the U.S.A., odd thing, he was black. He was black just like so many other slave owners, so how today are we supposed to tell the difference? Wanna hear something even more interesting? African tribes were the sellers of Africans to the colonizers, so once again, how do we know which blacks we're giving the reparations to? Now for the perplexing part: whites were slaves too 🤯
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Lawrence Rosenblum
If the songs are protected under copyright law they should definitely pay royalties - but if the songs are in the public domain, no.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Hasn't every culture had slaves sometime in their past? Slavery was very popular in Africa. I know in the country of Qatar slavery was just abolished about 5 years ago. They have an excellent museum on the history of slavery around the world. https://msheirebmuseums.com/en/about/bin-jelmood-house/
In the United States we horrible at admitting the sins of the past. How is it we have a Holocaust Museum for something that did not occur in our country but fail to recognize the whites, black and browns who were slaves and murdered in our own county?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
To compare slavery with the Holocaust is the most stupid comparison. The Holocause was genocide. Slavery was not and million didn't die under slavery. Slavery has existed since biblical times and still does in the Islamic religion so get off the sad sorry topic. Scripture mentions that we are not responsible for the sins of our forefathers. No one ever brings that up. Sick of hearing about slavery while we have a tyrannical party trying to establish a Marxist society only to justify their Mafia run state. I just want to see justice carried out against all these Democrat bastards involved with Epstein and their uncommonsenseibile mandates.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Keith Allen Steele Eash If you think my comment is stupid let me see if I can change your mind. In the United State we had Manifest Destiny. It was the goal of our forefathers.to EXTERMINATE the Nave peoples as well as enslave. If you know Holocausts history you know Herman Goring gave an excellent argument comparing how in the United States had exterminated the Native Americans, preformed and forcing US citizens to have medical treatments they did not want and performing medical experiments without their consent and had enslaved people. He made a very good argumentum that what the US had and was doing is exactly the same as what the Nazi's were doing. And the court was agreeing with him. The US was afraid everyone at the Nuremberg trials would all be acquitted.
How can you say our American forefathers did not engage in the mass extermination of Native People? From your comments it appears you would like our country run by a dictator with Adolf's ideology.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Liberal gaslighting. Every society is guilty of treating lesser groups with bigotry. You have no frickrn clue of history. Comparing the U.S. to Nazism and the Holocaust is ridiculous. We did not try to kill the Indians off with mass extermination. Individuals in the government, mostly democratic like Jackson was guilty of several Trail of Tears. Still nowhere were we planning on mass extermination. Cry and bleed your heart out. Past history. I truthfully don't think you can read. Nowhere did I mention wanting a dictator like Hitler. You're gaslighting. I don't play games like yours truly. As I said Nazis were genocidal insane racist idiots. Even with how we treated the Native Americans is no comparison to the Holocaust. You're changing the subject idiot.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Dude not sure what bible you’ve been smoking but it’s really screwing with your perception reality. What’s the difference between the US government plan to exterminate the Native Americas? Are you trying to say that the American Holocaust, the extermination of Native Americans did not happen? You do know the US government paid black $100 per Native American scalp, don’t you. And that the United States government stole Native American’s land and property and forced them to live in concentration camps called reservation. And that the United States had Nuremberg laws which prevented the mixing of the race or made it illegal for mixed marriages long before the Nazis did it. Take a look at how many Native American’s our white forefathers legally murdered/exterminated. Just as the Nazi’s had the Wannsee conference, in the US we had many. The trail of tears is like saying the Nazi’s had one concentration camp. Hitler may have said he wanted to rid Europe of the Jews, well the whites in the US said the same about the Native Americans over and over with Manifest Destiny.
And what about the Hawaiians and the Hawaiian Holocaust. Are you trying to tell me the European whites didn’t try to exterminate the Native Hawaiians? That bible you’ve been smoking has messed with your mind or are you just a white supremacist?-
Keith Allen Steele Eash
If you hate the U.S that much then pack your bags and leave. It's past history. Once again we didn't practice genocide. Native reservations were not prison camps. They didn't have fences around them. Get off it. Go argue with some libtard that revises history like you do. Past sins are past sins. I'm not responsible for the sins of my forefathers. Nor will I apologize for them. So go stick your head back up whete the sun doesn't shine. Once again to compare American history to the Holocaust is absolutely absurd. You should be more concerned with abortion. That's a Holocaust. So libtard go ask Kamala Harris to open her mouth . She'll accommodate.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
Is there a reason you can't be honest? Learn what's being taught in our schools. Ask any Native American or middle school child if they know anything about the American Holocaust. If they weren't sleeping or indoctrinated by your revisionist history they will tell you the our forefathers murdered Native Americans 20 million. That's 10 million more than the Japanese murdered in World War II with the Chinese holocaust.
You are right, God causes millions of abortions every year just in the United States. God's the biggest mass murderer there is.
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Daniel Gray
Give me a freaking break! Forgetting that by now all the songs that are sung in praise in churches worldwide are in the public domain which means there are NO royalties that need to be sent in...this is just another example of white pity. And that is nothing more then one group of people demanding money for something that does not belong to them and other mentally short morons wanting to do what they are told by ignorant morons. I could see a royalty being paid if the song was inside the ownership of the writer, but even movies and books fall into public domain after a set amount of time. But hey maybe the Cherokee and Iroquois should demand this church send US money because the government they are living under was copied from our articles of confederation so using their logic, we deserve compensation as well. makes about as much sense as this does.
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SueW
I’m shocked and disappointed to see so much privilege (and in some cases ignorance - I’m talking about you Pedro) in this group.
We continue to benefit after all these years from the historical exploitation of slaves.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
You must be new around here, Sue. Some of our fellow ministers are far worse, but we are all children of the same universe. Have you met flugo yet?
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Lumina
Yes we are
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Belch. Good leg there.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Ignorance. Calling sol e one Pedro is a sign of your own ignorance. Ignoramus.
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David Arthur Lewis
Wow! Soooooo much White Supremacy here! It's sickening.
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Lionheart
Yes, I blame that white supremacist God of the Old Testament, David. He was such a nasty piece of work cursing Cain with a black skin for killing Abel, and then condoning slavery. And then, to top it all off, we had a somewhat white savior, and possibly white apostles, or so the stories go. A black savior would have been a nice touch by the authors, or even a black God. Anyway, the stories are what they are I guess. Thank goodness there is no evidence they are true.
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Robert Steven Scott
? Cain wasn't cursed with black skin for killing Abel. That doesn't come from the biblical text at all, it comes from a prejudice group outside the bible trying to justify their wrong beliefs.
A preacher once told me this same lie. I asked how can it be true that people with dark skin are related to Cain since all his decedents died in the flood. He didn't have anything left to say.
Jesus was not the Hollywood actor or what we have pics of hanging on the wall. He most likely had darker skin like the rest of the people from his area/heritage and a homely appearance. Isaiah 53:2 ....he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
And just as a note, there is a lot of evidence that the stories in the bible are true and historically accurate, the problem is that many people don't go back to the bible for answers and often look to what a man has told them or their religious traditions. Jesus even encountered this in His day as He condemn the Pharisees because their traditions were not based on truth.
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Lionheart
I once asked the same question about the flood issue, and was told by an apologist that Ham (saved with Noah in the Ark) was black. Well, they have to drum up some answer don't they to preserve the black problem? Not that it matters being as the Ark story is just a handed down fable with no demonstrable evidence.
What we do know genetically, is that all of our early ancestors were originally black skinned and emanated from Africa.
I wonder if the mythical Christian God had a black skin 🤔. I understand Lord Krishna's skin was kind of bluish 🤪
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Lumina
You are so correct.
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Lumina
You need to stop putting David down, he sits on the right hand of GOD. You are going to be judged. I believe we are all created the same there is no difference, is what your mind is programmed like.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
You ought to go see your doctor about that illness, David. That is, your psychiatrist.
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David Arthur Lewis
Whassamatter Carl? See yourself in my assessment?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I'd call it nationalist pride dear sir. Not gaslighting libtardism. Time to be a patriot and not an appeasiing freeloader
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Pedro Pagan Jr
There was slaves because they owe money for services, just like we owe the government, telephone, electric, mortgage & car. Also slaves for a place to live, eat back then there was no government help. So let's see what God said about this and if you disagree complain to him. Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free. Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him." - Ephesians 6:5-9
"Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord. Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. 25 For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.
Masters, treat your bondservants justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven." - Colossians 3:22
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Donald Richard Starns
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Donald Richard Starns
Get your slaves from other tribes, and beat them, just not to death. Pass them on to your heirs, for they are your property, like your camels and your wives. Amen.
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Krystina S.
Pedro and Donald, you are reprehensible. Slavery was a great evil, and slaves were not bondservents, they were kidnapped.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Donald, it takes a real sicko to believe such things.
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Lionheart
You’re almost right. According to the mythical God of the Old Testament they can die, as long as they don’t die within the first day or two. Exodus 21:20. If they die after the second day, tough luck I guess 🤷🏼
I’m sure that’s one of the reasons the OT God has hidden itself away all this time. It’s too embarrassed to show itself, so it relies on apologists to make up stories for it to make out it’s either ok, or that people have got it all wrong. I think John Partin is one of those, trying to explain away his gods logic having screwed up.
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John D. Partin
CHL, do people even always or usually get what other people are saying correctly and understand what they are saying or do they put their own slant and spin on it, until it comes out the other side of that blender and filter meaning something slightly or wildly different from what they actually said?!! If there were perfect communication and understanding between people always in this world, we wouldn't have a great many of the problems that we have with each other. All of us who have dealt with other people's twisting our words and their dealing with our twisting their words know that it is our putting our slant and spin on other people's words. If we even do that to each other and misunderstand what other people are saying, when we can talk to them right in front of us, how could we not do that to God and misunderstand what God is saying, when we are only getting inspiration from Him and so don't hear Him correctly or just put our own words in His mouth? That isn't trying to make excuses for God, but our usual experience in communication with one another and so would be even more so with God. You know the game of a circle of people passing a story from one to another around the circle and it comes out differently at the end of the circle than it started out. That is just realistic, not a "plot to exonerate God from any blame" by me or anyone else, since people's words put in God's mouth obviously aren't His words. As I have told you many times already (and write it down and put it up on your refrigerator or tattoo it on your forearm or forehead or on your behind for someone to read it you, so that you won't forget it!!), when you become guilty of everything that other people accuse you of doing or saying, then you could, still wrongly, think that "God is guilty of everything that people have accused Him of doing or saying", but until then, don't do to God what you wouldn't want to be done to you and stop believing that God is guilty of everything that He is accused of doing or saying!! That is the Golden Rule towards God, too, and fair play for Him!!
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Stoodie Baker
So, not to put words in your mouth, as I'm trying to garner a theme from your exasperated post there. It seems like you are saying that, at least some of, the bible's verses are not the word of god since people "put words in his mouth' and people don't hear him, but only "get inspiration from him" and "put their own words in his mouth." So why do you quote from the bible so much to support your claims?
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Lionheart
So what John is saying is that all the naughty bits are not from his god, but all the good bits are. If ever you see a naughty bit like Cain being cursed, death and destruction, stoning, slavery, infanticide, foreskins being removed, someone being turned to salt, Sodom and Gomorrah etc., it's not from his god. I know...I know...try not to laugh!
As you will now be realizing that if of course John premise was true, and there really was a god, the "good book" could have been cut down considerably to just a few pages of good bits. I don't know if Joseph was happy with Mary getting in the family way from John's god, but we have to assume that was one of the good bits that John would leave in his bible. I doubt it would have have made Joseph's bible. I think he would have called that a bad bit. Anyway, I know its very humorous but I've found that it's best to just go with him, pat him on his head, and leave him to it. He means well, bless him.
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John D. Partin
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John D. Partin
Stoodie Baker, to quote God's actual words, consistent with His character of love, and not the hate, bigotry, genocidal and murderous commands, racism, and other evils that have been put into His mouth and falsely ascribed to Him. Let's put it on a personal basis: if I knew you or another person very well and the kind of things that you or that person always or usually say, but then read in a newspaper or The National Enquirer that you or that person had said something that was totally unlike what you or they are always or usually saying, would I believe that newspaper about your words or my experience with you that you wouldn't have said such a thing and that you had been misquoted, which happens with people all the time? I would believe my personal experience with you or that person and not the newspaper about your words! Why shouldn't I and other people follow suit and do unto God as we would have others do unto us, and believe His demonstrated character of love and concern for us over those words in the "newspaper" of the Bible that are totally different from that demonstrated character?!! That is just consistency and fairness!! When even people are misquoted all the time in newspapers, how could God not ever be misquoted or have words put into His mouth by Bible writers, to make Him say what they want and "justify" themselves?! God demonstrates His love and concern for us by synchronizing, calibrating, coordinating, and maintaining our universe and its laws, so as to make life even possible on the Earth!! So, He wouldn't then just turn right around and order the killing of people by Moses and the Israelites or kill them Himself by a flood or fire from the sky or otherwise, when He is trying to keep life going in this world by all of that control of the universe just mentioned!! That would be totally inconsistent and self-contradictory!! "God is love" is the truth about God in the Bible, where He speaks about Himself. "Love your neighbor as yourself", "Love one another as I have loved you", "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you", "Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you have done it unto me", and "By this will all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another" are the actual teachings of God in the Bible, along with all that are like them. The killings and rotten commands "from God" in the Bible aren't consistent with those teachings, and so they aren't really from God.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
To express your faith tradition as fact outs you as an insular minded enemy of our ministry here. If you can not accept that your faith tradition is a personal thing, and not something those who do not follow it should never hear one word about it from your lips, then you are not a ULC minister and have no standing here.
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Robert Duff
I'm sure that the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act" time limit has expired on these songs.
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The Gray Minister
I Minister Gray says I think this would be a good start.
I have a great deal of many churches today because of what they buy. Some are doing a wonderful job of supporting many things that help many people all over the planet.
But many I wonder. Fancy cars Fancy buildings Fancy Jewelry The list goes on and on.
But yes I agree this would be a great thing to help the Black Community.
I have another idea with what churches should do but how to make it happen with out the wrong people getting in the way and filling their pockets with money that could be used to change the future of the kids to come
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
The best thing to help the black community would be to quit considering themselves victims. How about that. Then get a damn job. How about that. Quit using other peoples self pity. How about that. You make me sick. Then quit supporting communist organizations like BLM, ANTIFA, BLACK PANTHERS, etc. How about that. Anticolonial bs.
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Krystina S.
Keith, your bigotry is astonishing and sad. You lack the most basic knowledge of history, to start with. You do not understand communism either. My family never had slaves, we are immigrants. However, that does not make us - as caucasian - indifferent or callous to the suffering of others. Shame on all of you who are expressing white "indignity" and racism.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
What I abhor are people who say I don't understand communism. The complacency thst you liberals have of embracing communism, and then gadlughting that it's great. Zsk the 70 million who died under Stalin, the untold millions under Lenin. Then let's begin with the millions under Mao dog dung, Ho Chi Minion, and Fidel Castration, Pol toilet bowl Pot, and then Venzuela. No you don't understand communism. Communism is godless and has no place in the Church or in Liberation Theology. And don't tell me Jesus Christ is a Communist and Christianity is Communism. You dneed to pull your head out of your liberal behind and study some real history. And please don't tell me I shouldn't make fun of dead political leaders responsible of millions of murders like Biden is of untold.millions of abortions here in the U.S. andvthe world over.
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David Arthur Lewis
Have you accepted Donald J. Trump as your personal Lord and Savior?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
No but I sure in hell will vote for him again since he still is the legitimately elected president.
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Ilmenheru Terikson
You do know that speaking such lies as that prove you to not be an actual minister in good standing right?
YO mods please report the aboves posts to the FBIs office in seattle. This guy may well have violence planned based on his posts.
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Lionheart
Well, it’s looking as though it’s going to be a choice between him or Brandon.
Being as Brandon is responsible for the highest increase in the cost of living in over 40 years, more Covid deaths than his predecessor, the worst illegal immigration of any president, high gas prices, empty shelves, etc., I don’t see that we have much choice.
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David Arthur Lewis
POTUS has no control over any of those things. Not even your personal Lord and Savior Saint Trumpty Dumpty.
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Lionheart
Well, I beg to differ. He is the POTUS right, or are there others pulling his strings and writing his teleprompter replies?
He closed the pipeline down. From there onwards gasoline prices increased.
He didn't finish the wall, leaving huge gaps in it, hence the huge illegal unvaxinated immigration issue. They knew where those gaps were, so they exploited them.
His campaign Covid rhetoric was, and I quote, "We have a plan to stem to tide" claiming Trump didn't, and blamed him for the amount of people that died. Not only did he lie, because he clearly didn't have a plan, but more people have died under his watch.
The debacle/method of how he pulled out of Afghanistan will go down in Presidential history as possibly being one of a biggest military blunders of this century. The blame lays squarely on his shoulders, or those telling him what to do.
If you really want to stick to saying the POTUS had NO control over any of those things I'd like to know who was in fact responsible being as they all happened during his first year in office? Brandon is clearly showing signs of not being mentally capable and is becoming a bumbling laughing stock around the world. I'll be amazed if he sees his full term of office out.
Was Trump perfect? Hell no! Name a president that has been, but the country was in far better shape than 12 months later under Brandon and his very inept "President" Harris, as he erroneously calls her. Bless him, I do hope he gets well, but I fear the worst.
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David Arthur Lewis
OK, so you drank the kool-ade and Trumty Dumptyis your personal Lord and Savior. You’re an ignorant fool and I’m done wasting my time.
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Lionheart
I see you ignored my comments that I refererenced by Brandon our SCROTUS. I guess all you have to offer are insults, spoken like to true uneducated socialist.
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John D. Partin
CHL, if Trumpelstiltskin had actually put the country in far better shape than it is now, except according to you and his other drones and zombies, who "thought" that "he could do wrong", he wouldn't have been voted out and Joe Biden voted in! And he did far worse than mistakenly call his Vice President "President" ---- one time, by mistakenly calling himself "President" all the time through his term, when he didn't live up to his responsibilities as President and earn that title because he was too busy using his Twitter account, watching TV, playing golf, going for photo ops in front of a church whose pastor didn't want him there and holding a Bible upside down, insulting reporters at press conferences and walking out of them, proposing ingesting bleach as "a cure for COVID-19", and avoiding his job every other way that he could come up with!! "Brandon" is only a "laughing stock" to you Trumpophiles and some others that you want to point to and call them "around the world", but Trumpelstiltskin was and is an actual laughingstock to everyone here and around the world, except you his hypnotized and brainwashed still drones! So, there are far more people laughing at the Donald than you "think", for your anti-Democratic and anti-Biden propaganda, are "laughing at Biden"!!
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Val Jester
Virtue signaling at its very worst.
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robert
What a bunch of horse manure! I don’t think there is any other need to offer any further comment!
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Gerardo Salazar
Couldn’t agree more with you.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
This could inspire many churches to quit singing slave spirituals.
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Angel
Isn't that what my taxes are paying for? Extra social benefits to African American who qualify for services based solely on the color of their skin that I pay but don't qualif for because of the color of skin? This is getting out of hand. I agree, slavery is wrong but it wasn't me nor my ancestors that owned slaves. I'm not privilaged and I won't pay for crimes I didn't commit. Society is changing, and if people want change, they need to set thir own racism aside and come together as a community to make those changes and ensure this never happens again. Instead, the pendulum is swinging the oppoposite direction an the demands won't do anything but fuel the hatred that already exsists. You want me to know how it feels to be discriinated because I'm white? I already know, because I have had many, many discriminations since childhood, and race is only but one. But I don't demand money, the change comes from how I chose to handle it. I don't like it, I don't think it's fair, nor I do I think it's fair for anyone. I have been raised to treat everyone according to who they are, I give the same respect back in return for respect given. I do not favor one group of people over the other. and THAT is what will bring upon change in my family line. I will support equality, I will not support the inequality of "paybacks" that's happening here because swinging the pendulum in the opposite direction only creates more hate and will never lead to the society we all strive to become.
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Donald Richard Starns
You do know that more (so-called) “whites” get government aid of one type or another than black folks, don’t you?
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Krystina S.
I agree, Donald. These disgusting comments are not even based on reality, but on right-wing tropes which are racist. Shame on all of them.
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Jerimae Wade Sledge
That's bull because I am 100% disabled and all they will give me is $16.00 a month so me and my wife told them to keep it I live in the state of Alabama I get 1085 to support me and my wife and that's a month I'm all I can do is pay My bills and hope it doesn't go over I have to go without food so my wife can eat so if I was black down here I can get 1000 in food stamps+cash and what the Government owes me so I lost my life for you and your family in war but I'm the one who has to do without an you say black's and others don't get as much hahahaha good luck making people believe that.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Donald, you do know that whites far out number black people in this nation, don't you?
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Angel
lol, not true in states such as California, Arizona, ect.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Well said.
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George Floyd was not murdered by the police . It was his choices in life that led to his death . Although it is tragic that he died , He and he alone was the author of the script that led to his ending . As far as paying royalties for singing slave songs or paying reparations for slavery , I see no useful pourpous in doing that . I think we will all agree that slavery was not right either biblically or morally , but NO ONE alive today owned slaves or were slaves . To pay someone for something that they did not have anything to do with sends the wrong message . Money will never cover the cost of slavery . It's like saying , Here is a few dollars now let's all be friends . Instead , we should ALL learn from the past and move forward together . Let history be our teacher. Knowledge is power .