Back in June, the all-Muslim city council in Hamtramck, Michigan banned the LBGTQ Pride flag from flying on government property.
The council's unanimous vote followed three months of intense debate at city council meetings, which often ended in shouting matches and unsavory accusations on both sides.
If supporters of the ban expected the national spotlight to fade away from their small, 28,000 person town just outside of Detroit, they were wrong.
Months after the decision, resentment and disappointment are still simmering amongst the town’s LGBTQ+ population. Many activists are settling on a single word: betrayal.
A Promising Alliance Sours
Hamtramck’s LGBTQ+ community has long championed the city’s sizable Muslim community, and many viewed the two groups as progressive allies in the fight for a less prejudiced and more open society.
Hamtramck is believed to be the only city in America with an all-Muslim city council. As a marginalized community themselves, the LGBTQ+ folks in Hamtramck supported their Muslim neighbors when they faced discrimination, and largely backed an amendment to the city’s noise ordinance which allows for Muslim calls-to-prayer to be broadcast over public loudspeakers.
There were other signs that the council was motivated to advance Islamic beliefs. Back in January, they voted to approve animal sacrifice for religious purposes (prompting outrage from groups like PETA).
However, it wasn't until the Pride flag ban was proposed that the relationship between the LGBTQ+ community and city leaders really began to fray.
In fairness, the new flag ordinance restricts all flags except a handful: the United States flag, the Michigan flag, and so on. However, LGBTQ+ groups believe the vote was targeted at them – and much of the public debate centered around whether the Pride flag specifically should be able to fly on city property:
For its part, the city argues it was just “trying to close the door for other groups that could be extremist or racist."
Betrayal in Hamtramck
Now, some LGBTQ+ residents say they feel that a community they helped in its time of need is now turning its back on them.
Over the summer, former city councilor Catrina Stackpoole, who is gay, minced no words. “We welcomed you,” she told the Muslim members of the city council. “We created nonprofits to help feed, clothe, find housing. We did everything we could to make your transition here easier, and this is how you repay us, by stabbing us in the back?”
The sense of betrayal by many of the city’s gay community is palpable. One local woman, Hayley Cain, says that she moved to Hamtramck specifically because of the religious and ethnic diversity. Now, she’s having second thoughts. "I knew it was a diverse community," she stated. "I'm questioning whether it is. I don't want to live in a place like this.”
The ban has seemingly emboldened anti-LGBTQ individuals in the town, too. Thefts and vandalism against homes flying the flag have reportedly gone up, and many of the town’s LGBTQ+ community no longer feel safe. Some are considering moving away.
Are All Phobias Equal?
This issue has since gained the attention of Michigan’s political leadership, some of whom are hoping to see the ban overturned.
Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel recently participated in protests and called out the perceived hypocrisy of city leadership. "Make no mistake,” she said, “homophobia, transphobia are indeed forms of evil as much as Islamophobia is."
What do you think? Did Hamtramck’s Muslim leadership "betray" the LGBTQ community with the flag ban? And is the city’s Muslim community being hypocritical here, or are they entitled to pass measures that align with their beliefs?
106 comments
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Michaela Dorman
The city council did the right thing. Why should any flag fly on government property that isn't the US or state flag? This is purely common sense. If we allow the gay pride flag to fly, then where does it end? Seriously, where does it stop? Next it will be the asexual pride flag, then the furry pride flag, then the NAMBLA flag. Just about the only flag you couldn't fly is a straight pride flag.
Good for them for refusing to bow.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
Yet the religious flags can fly. Hate is hate no matter who it is against. Your's shows quite plainly with this comment.
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ServantOfJudgement
Bridget,
Michaela said no flags except US or state flags. That excludes religious flags from what I gather. That's not hate, that good practice.
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Rev. Rory
As long as the council does not ban private homes or businesses from flying their flags of choice, I'm fine with this. Federal and State and MIA only on government buildings is fair.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thank you, MD, for stating the conservative position so clearly and concisely.
Notice that it starts out with 'Why were they flying the gay flag in the first place?' and ends with 'Good for them for refusing to acknowledge the existence and assistance of gays'. Did you catch the difference between the conservative position and the fundamentalist Muslim position? Me neither. Did you notice how asexuality, furries, and NAMBLA are equated to gay pride? I did.
This is yet another example of the conservative mentality that assumes it is the arbiter of all civic morality and requires absolute conformance and homogeneity in all aspects of society. It views ANY diversity as "deviance" and seeks to oppress all nonconformist expressions as equally deficient, regardless of whether anybody is victimized or not.
In short, modern conservatism seeks to make all of society their own personal safe space, and they don't care who they have to victimize to do it. This is why they can't understand why the gay flag exists, or why it deserves a place at city hall.
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David Buck
"modern conservatism seeks to make all of society their own personal safe space, and they don't care who they have to victimize to do it." Wow. That is an accusation that is usually levied against the liberals/political left. It is so interesting to see it directed at the conservatives/political right. Pots and kettles it seems.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Give examples that illustrate your point, and I may agree with you.
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James Richard Munro
I take issues with the term, Gay Pride. How can you have pride in something so perverted?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Gay pride is needed only because of people like you.
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Rev. Rory
No need to fear "these people". You cannot "become gay." You are gay or you are not gay. That would include coworkers and family members. If you respect yourself, you can learn to respect other people.
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth,
I think I found your problem. Your reading comprehension is a bit off.
You said Michaela Dorman said 'Good for them for refusing to acknowledge the existence and assistance of gays'.
Michaela Dorman actually said 'Good for them for refusing to bow.'
When we examine the two quotations we can see a massive difference. You said what you wanted Michaela to say I think.
I usually read a comment several times so I understand the authors perspective as best I can.
From what I gather Michaela is saying is that government buildings should only fly government flags. That makes good sense to me. Let's not get worried until they fly the Muslim flag.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thank you SOJ for finding my problem.
I agree with you.
I use 'single quotes' to indicate paraphrasing, and "double quotes" to indicate direct quoting. My paraphrasing states what I think it says rather than as worded, just to express what I feel is communicated.
After reading the comment several times I agree I could have paraphrased that better.
What I should have said is, 'Good for them for refusing to feel subjugated by their own bigoted fears to the imaginary threat of a benevolent and accommodating minority.'
I appreciate your pointing out my error.
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James Riggle-Johnson
Okay, that’s a lot there to unpack, but what was that about straight pride? Straight pride is celebrated every minute, of every day, of every year. Straight people never have to worry about holding hands in public, (Str8 Pride), straight people never have to worry about getting fired because of their sexual orientation, (Str8 Pride), they never have to worry about being evicted for being gay, (Str8 Pride), they never have to worry about being beaten to death on the street because they’re straight. (Str8 Pride). Being straight isn’t a disadvantage in the country.
And I happen to agree with you. A government building should not be forced to fly a Pride Flag as long as they are holding true to other groups as well.
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Daniel Ginther
Wrong chief, us Americans in the general populous are so friggin sick of your Homosexuality in our faces that now we hate you......Why ?
You took your sick perverted fight to our children that's why. You crossed the line and we have had it. We were fine letting you do your thing but you went way overboard. Don't think for a second that God created each of us and that he made anyone Homosexual cause that's a lie from hell. Yes some individuals are more inclined to be Homosexual early on that's true but it's not part of God's plan, he said it was wrong for reasons 2000 years ago and those same reasons hold true today and will tomorrow.
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Rev. Rory
Did anyone come to your home and try to recruit you to the gay community? Did you speak to God directly and he answered you? Do you believe in Manifest Destiny? I hear that is also God's plan. How do you feel about interracial marriage?
It all comes down to your religious beliefs. I applaud your ability in the US to hold those beliefs without fear. I do not applaud anyone that wants to push their own religious beliefs on everyone. It's okay. God will let you into heaven even if you think the rest of us are heathens. It's all good.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Look again.
Actually it's right-wing media that keeps putting the LGBTQ+ in your faces.
When is the last time you actually saw someone or something 'gay' yourself? Was your life irrevocably damaged in some way? How?
You are being used.
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Russel A. Kester
Flags are a form of communication whether it's planting a flag in soil to say either we were here or to say this land is our land. They also represent a group or ideal. Flying the rainbow flag from government buildings can say that whereas we historically discriminated against you, we regret what our ancestors did and are showing solidarity with you at this time. It's a wonderful message. Straight people were never sent to prison by any government I'm aware of simply for being straight and expressing those feelings with another person. Therefore, I reject any premise that says government's should not be allowed to fly flags other than the Federal and State flags. In this case, it's a group that is and historically has been hostile to the gay community which has caused a change in government policy; so the gay community's concerns are warranted. And the vandalism of private property adds to those concerns. But they were brought on the community by its own hand, however justified.
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ServantOfJudgement
Russel,
For a time the Muslim community in USA was treated poorly, not like lgb, you're right on that but the were and are by some, mainly after the final trade center bombing but not the earlier ones by Muslims. It's the hard lined Muslim's duty to do that sort of thing. The Muslim jihad movement takes a land or building and removes whatever flag that was there and runs theirs up the pole. It's a sign of victory over the conquered people.
Should we fly the Muslim flag over the Whitehouse to show solidarity for their mistreatment?
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Russel A. Kester
SOJ, I think you said that they were both victims and conquerors. You further said that when they take land or buildings they removed previous flags and plant their own. So how could we fly a Muslim flag in solidarity with their mistreatment if they are conquerors who are already flying their flag. It doesn't seem to be a choice based on all that you said. Nice to talk with you again, it's been awhile.
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ServantOfJudgement
Russel,
I do remember you! I thought I did. You were nice to me even though we can disagree and I'm sorta an odd duck with strange thoughts.
You got my point. It's a catch 22. That's the reasoning for my opinion on what flags we fly on government buildings. Because the time of the 'melting pot' appears to be behind us, guard rails should be in place to prevent the re-culturization of USA into cultures not from USA. Someone here said immigrants tend to be more conservative, might be true, probably is. Americans that are black, women or lgb etc could be at risk by local municipalities passing laws that take them backwards in freedom. It could really happen to any of us even if it violates the constitution. When we see a flag it might appear as a victory over an opponent. Heck, when a basketball team loses, people riot over it. Think of a lunatic that snaps if they think they're losing ground on this issue. I don't want any more fuel for this fire that's beginning to rage.
For my part and stance on pride flags, I'm like this:
If I'm with a group of people that verbally attack, belittle or in general slam someone who's gay, I would shut it down quick and now. I don't hang with anyone like that but that's what I would do if it happened. If a gay person is being physically attacked because they're gay I would risk my life and step in to protect and defend with zero delay. In no way am I wired to turn away and let it happen. I'd do that for anyone really, I care about people. Except for murders, molesters and rapists, I'd go get lunch if I saw them getting slapped around, probably, there a chance I'd feel guilty and turn around to help I suppose.
The rainbow flag to me is God's promise to not flood the earth again. That's what I think when I see any rainbow. I feel it has been taken me and repurposed to mean something else. If its what it originally was, a reminder from God, a Christian symbol, we know we can't fly it over city hall.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Thorny issue. Without this ordinance, a Nazi flag, e.g., could be flown in Hamtramck. Or the Confederate flag. Or others that symbolize hate? Personally, I have no problem with the Gay Pride flag, although I wonder what would happen if I flew it in my small community quite a bit south of Hamtramck. so far, I know it's in my house somewhere but I haven't come across it in a year or so. The temptation is enticing me.
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Michael Hunt
I hate to see that this has lead to violence against other people flying the rainbow flag at their homes. It's sad seeing what I can only describe as fascism on the rise in our country.
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Daniel Ginther
Our Fascist dictator President Brandon is leading the charge and thankfully his reign will end next November when his party is demolished
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Rev. Rory
Oh my. Heaven's Gate. The People's Temple. Q. Helter Skelter. The Freedom Caucus. Do you see what some people, in the name of money have done? Save yourself before it's too late.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Snort.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What?
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Gerard Anthony Ritchie
It seems that behind all the shouting and table-thumping is the real issue, which is that two minority groups which previously cooperated and helped each other have now fallen out with one blaming the other for betrayal. And, as is often the case once you put power in peoples' hands they will use it for their own advantage. So, the remedy is to balance the power. LGBTQ+ folks need to run for positions on the City Council, get elected and then they will have power to negotiate. Power only bows to power.
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Michael Benjamin Roberts
Amen!
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Rev Ned
Muslims are all about inclusion. Until they become the majority, then the Sharia law and burkas come out.
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Robert A Stiff
Succinctly said and sadly true.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Sharia law and burkas are more cultural than Muslim. Don't equate them.
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Troels Qvist
It is a simple but quite unfortunate truth. Lgbt persons along with everybody non muslim are infidel's and must either convert or die . It is clear if you know a little about the religion of "peace" to bad the lgbt community did not figure that out . It is okay to lie and decieve infidels. That's just the way it is.
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Russel A. Kester
Comment removed by user.
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Daniel Ginther
Homosexuals should know without a doubt that Islam does not tolerate them in any way in fact if they would just read the Koran they would know that Muslims are told to lie for their greater purpose. Welcome to the real world.
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Robert A Stiff
Ah, the true face of hate shows itself. As for the city council banning the gay pride flag...just read the Qu'ran...it's all in there. Multiply and take over, impose our rules and dogma, plain and simple.
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Gee, sounds like evangelical Christians!
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Don James Joseph Kirkwood
It’s a total betrayal. If we are not vigilant, we will all be betrayed. The Muslim community has immigrated out of the Middle East all across the globe. They are buying up businesses, occupying seats in local and federal government. They are slowly infiltrating our society and demanding change. This change is not for our benefit but theirs. They are destroying us from within.
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James Richard Munro
The LGBTQ community is doing the same thing. This immorality, perversion, should not be encouraged or tolerated. There is no such thing as a gay Christian. Gee, that's awful pretty. Pick one. you can't have both. Gay or Christian? It`s like saying the ten commandments are multiple choice. Didn't God say, one man, one woman?
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Russel A. Kester
James, God did not say one man, one woman. Men did. Nature has both sexes as well as heterosexual and homosexual acts. One can be both gay and Christian. Even the Catholic Church acknowledges that because it listens to science which helps us understand our sexuality is innate and unchangeable. Where's the love?
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Paul Martin
100% .. but this “takeover” & “invasion” of the Western World is being ignored by liberal, left wing Media channels .. the vast majority of the brainwashed public don’t have a clue of what is happening right in front of their faces .. European cultures & the individual history of each Country is being eradicated day by day .. so many thousands of brave people gave their lives in defending freedom & very soon most countries will be under sharia law
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Russel A. Kester
Come on, what did the LGBT community expect? Islam is opposed to homosexuals. Period. This is were far left activists get it wrong every time. And it how America will get it wrong too if it doesn't wake up and hear Islam's call to make everyone pray to its Allah. No pity for the gay community from me. But I do suggest that we finally learn our lessons from standing up for Islam's anti-woman and anti-gay beliefs to trans activists lunacy or we will have much more to lament.
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Michael Benjamin Roberts
Hate is hate no matter how you spin it. Here in the US, we constitutionally separate church and state. The tax-paying LGBTQ community should not need the approval of any religious group to be represented in flying any flag, especially on their own homes. It seems as if the Muslims were fine when they were welcomed and helped by the LGBTQ community. Once they took over the local government, they begin their own version of discrimination against those who helped them. The only remedy in this situation is to vote them out of government leadership.
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ServantOfJudgement
Michael,
I don't know a single person that doesn't want people to fly a lgb flag on their own home. I know they're out there but I don't know of anyone. I can't and won't speak for Muslims. With government buildings, my opinion is about neutrality and tats all. I'm a rugged straight Christian dude that got in a pillow fight with a gay guy in a hotel room in Chicago for crying out loud. He was my employee and I hired him before it was cool to hire gay guys! I don't care what adults do, we all deserve the freedom to love who we want. I get it. Really, I do. To be fair to my ruggedness, the gay guy started it!
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Keith
As well as being a minister, I’m a gay man and Human Rights Consultant. I believe that we all share the same human rights, regardless of our gender, sexuality, race, and religion. However, I can't say I agree with how a Muslim-majority community has treated the LGBTQ+ community that helped integrate that same Muslim group into the community. The LGBTQ+ knows what it feels like to be discriminated against and has always been ready to help other discriminated groups. I would be very disappointed in this Muslim American group for turning its back on a group that stood up and welcomed them into their community with support. If I were a member of a marginalized group that is currently being discriminated against by a specific political group that is trying to end our democracy, which ensures our equal rights, I would be standing up against them. I love the freedoms guaranteed to all American citizens, regardless of whether you are Muslim American, Asian American, African American, or Latino American. Suppose you are in one of the marginalized groups that the republican party is trying to erase you and your history as if you never existed and trying to prevent you from voting to stop your voice from being heard. Then, I would want to stand together to keep our rights and freedoms.
Blessing, Minister David
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Carol M. Anaski-Figurski
all are welcome! Blessed be!.
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Robert Gagnon
Rainbow flag is a personal form of expression that not everyone shares. It is intimidating and offensive to the greater majority of the population. For some reason only the people of this community seem to count anymore. Everyone else's feelings have been delegated to the back burner as haters or some kind of phobians. Since when does a government building have to display support for a sexual preference? What form of equality is on display here. In America we are all Americans, In a state we are all in that state. Flags are a form of recognition of that. We are all not of any sexual group. Why should one oversensitive group have preference over We the people?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Saying the "greater majority" is "not of any sexual group" is entirely disingenuous. Heterosexuality is the majority sexual group. Is that why you find the rainbow flag "intimidating and offensive"? Because they are not your sexual group? What exactly are you afraid of happening when the rainbow flag is respected?
And here is why the flag is being shown: https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
Yes, in America we are all Americans - but apparently some feel they are more than others. Feel free to show how the majority sexual group is being oppressed as in the above link.
And sorry about your feelings.
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Lisa Miller
Just because you are being "oppressed" as you say does not give you the right to go around slandering others. Never have I met a more hateful and entitled group of people than that of your tribe.
A couple years ago we were saying labels are bad. Don't label people!
Now, everyone is saying my "label" is... And you better respect my label!
And what is worse they try to label people who do not want labels. If you are straight you are cis-whatever. If you are gay you are homosexual. If you are trans... Well, you can let that freak flag fly! Go nuts and take all the labels.
Look... The LBGTQ+ group is a sexual orientated group. It is all about... "HEY! I WANT YOU TO KNOW WHO OR WHAT I LIKE TO HAVE SEX WITH!!!" Don't say it's identity or some other silly billy nonsense! It is all about sex and sexual preference.
I could give a fig less what you are in to. And before you go "Oh, you bigot you!" I used to identify with that group... Now, I just tell everyone I am a lesbian and not part of the LBGTQ+ mafia. Because I'm not out to intimidate or call people who don't agree with me Nazis or Bigots. I'm here to enjoy life and love who I want to love. I don't need a flag or to parade around announcing my sexual preference to the world. Because that is how you make enemies not allies!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I'll thumb that up!
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Russel A. Kester
Lisa, let's see if you might have the cart before the horse here. First came discrimination and actual prison time for men. Women were exempt because Queen Victoria simply couldn't imagine what two women could do together that would violate either of the bodies. Movements use flags for group solidarity and identify. Think of the French revolution, the US American revolution and Betsy Ross. The rainbow flag was our flag for our cause and a good one too. It's our flag for us and represents our efforts to be left alone to live our lives with those we love. Unfortunately, our detractors do see it as just about sex because when they think of gay people they think about our sex lives not our whole lives.
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Robert Gagnon
Your looking at it backwards. The majority are being attacked by direct confrontation of what they may deem offensive. Shove a boner in a lesbians face every day or a cooch in a gay guys face every day and demand they like it. It's offensive right? The most mild mannered person resents being imposed upon or told how to act according to someone elses will. Lisa has the right attitude, just be happy and stop forcing your opinion on others.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
What was shoved in your face Robert?
I'm going to guess it was right-wing propaganda. You see the LGBTQ+ constantly on your TV and you're angered - as intended.
Or perhaps you were kidnapped by a marauding band of drag queens and forced to marry a trans-woman - but go ahead, you tell me.
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Robert Gagnon
The flag is enough, that is the issue. Fly it from your house prance around it in your parades, I could care less. For this to go on for a month is unnecessary. You want to be left alone? Leave everyone else alone. Flag does not belong in schools. Maybe it's time to make a straight flag plant them in every front yard. Maybe you'd get the idea then! I always referred to sex as the adult playground where you can play with who you want any way you want. When you involve children that are not ready for the emotional and psychological impact on their lives, it has gone too far. To say your movement is not about sex is an imbecilic lie. If you were really happy with your lifestyle you would not have to wear it on your sleeve and demand others to tell you how superior you are for personal validation. You are not convincing me and never will. You should listen to your own argument, it is very flawed.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"To say your movement is not about sex is an imbecilic lie."
And from Lisa Miller's post above:
"The LBGTQ+ group is a sexual orientated group."
I can always tell when there is a new right-wing propaganda push, because all the parrots are squawking it.
I never said it's about sex - you did. Lisa did. I'm starting to see it all around me. "The LGBTQ+ movement is all about SEX!!"
That is some brilliant PR there - but let me ask you Robert - have you ever seen gay sex? Ever?
Or is it actually the truth that right-wing media puts the gay pride parade on your TV, and you see that and you say, "Look at what the gays are SHOVING IN MY FACE!"
Because the truth is that there is no gay sex in the streets. There is no gay sex in your homes. There is no gay sex in schools. The truth is for all the effect the gays have on your life you might as well be condemning them for being left-handed, or red haired, or green eyed - but you see the propaganda and you are angered, as intended.
This is what oppression actually looks like: https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
You think you're being oppressed? Fine - post here anything the gays are doing to the straights like that.
I'll wait.
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Robert Gagnon
Wow so much denial. in this particular instance everyone is the same. Only thing up for debate is you and yours expressing a need for recognition and separation from everyone else because of your sexual preference. Then forcing it on everyone else in as many ways and places as you can imagine. Anyone can go back in history either short or long term and find were they've been persecuted. You keep attacking the norm and then crying persecution and haters when you get the human reaction of self defense. You like to ask questions but never answer any asked of you. Because you have no legitimate response, just a link. FYI I've done serious time and witnessed the act. In there you're a man or a boy. I had some gay friends but could not treat them as equals in the yard or else be considered as questionable. I had 9 years to hear their origin stories. Actually wrote a book about prison hierarchy and mentality in 2006 that was recommended reading for college criminology courses. Exposing yourself to kids in the street did and does happen. Yes it happens in the schools and probably a few back yards also. By the way I'm a Democrat
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I admit it Robert - you do seem scarred. Sorry about that.
But you are the one in denial. The link shows actual legal damage and oppression on a NATIONAL scale which you simply IGNORE. Okay, so you've seen gay sex in prison - which is not surprising - but AGAIN there is no gay sex in the streets.
Gays aand trans exist - how is that 'attacking' you? They exist. Are you being forced to have gay sex? Marry a trans woman? Wear a dress?
You obviously do feel oppressed - but what's missing is the oppression. You say you are a Democrat but what's missing are the liberal values and the lack of paranoia.
That the self-proclaimed "normies" are being attacked is straight-up conservative propaganda - propaganda which you are spreading in the above comment. Either you live in a gay militarized zone, or you aren't actually a Democrat. So sorry, but you don't pass the smell test.
Wouldn't be the first time a conservative has lied - you know, because the gays are such a 'horrific threat'.
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Robert Gagnon
LGB are real people. Trans are disillusioned people that hate who they are born. Drag queens no one cared about until they insisted on influencing kids. Things have come a long way in the last 50 years, but people like you keep poking the bear. The bear always wins. How dense are you to not realize that the more you push, the more everyone will push back. I have no skin in the game, but I do have empathy for good people that want to be themselves. But, never at the expense of everyone else. LGB should separate themselves from the cause of all their problems and let these loser radicals fade into history as just a sad joke in history.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Ever since LGBTQ+ issues have gained popularity, right-wing propagandists have been looking for ways to break them up, for any way to set them against each other.
You are a consumer of right-wing media. It might as well be tattooed on your forehead. Every trope you just parroted are standard right-wing media talking points.
So you're a bear just fighting back, is that it? Well bully for you - but you do NOT get to decide what is moral, what is threatening, what is human for all.
If you truly want to do the right thing I suggest you pull your head out of the right-wing propaganda machine and take a look around you. There's a whole universe out here.
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Robert Gagnon
No one influences me. I once saw everything through angry eyes like you do. But I figured it out when I was fifteen. I also see the algorithms at work, firing everybody up by feeding peoples hatreds and fears. Yes I decide for myself what is moral and right as I see it, along with the greater majority. Your perceived enemy is the making of your own mind. You're the one spaying propaganda and repetitious falsehoods. I can remember over a hundred peoples lives I made a difference in. While you yell and scream empty words out in to the Universe you think you discovered. This is my last response to you. I will not waste my time with a hateful, angry person with no self awareness.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, now is a good time to run away.
https://www.nature.com/articles/518288a
https://cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352250X22002202
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Lisa Miller
Read your history books. This is how it starts. Muslims integrate and seem like allies. Muslims start to slowly manipulate the population to accept their beliefs and customs (animal sacrifice). The LBGTQ+ people need to move away from there quickly! Because soon there will be a law banning same sex relationships and more.
Don't believe it? Read the Quran. Gay people are to be stoned in the streets.
عن ابی ہریرہ ؓ ان رسول اللہ ﷺ قال : لعن اللہ سبعۃ من خلقہ من فوق سبع سمٰوتہ وردّد اللعنۃ علی واحد منھم ثلاثاً و لعن کل واحد منھم لعنۃ تکفیہ، قال : ملعون من عمل عمل قوم لوط، ملعون من عمل عمل قوم لوط ملعون من عمل عمل قوم لوط ، (الحدیث)
As narrated by Sayyidna Abu Hurairah ؓ the Holy Prophet ﷺ said: "Allah has cursed seven types of his creatures from above the seven heavens. He has cursed one of them thrice, while has cursed the others one time which is enough for them. (About the one whom He has cursed thrice) He has said, "Cursed is he who did what the people of لوط (علیہ السلام) Lot did. Cursed is he who did what the people of Lot did. Cursed is he who did what the people of Lot did." (At-Targhib wat-Tarhib)
عن ابی ہریرہ ؓ ان رسول اللہ ﷺ قال : أربعۃ یصبحون فی غضب اللہ و یمسون فی سخط اللہ، قُلتُ : مَن ھم یا رسول اللہ ؟ قال : المشتبھون من الرجال بالنساء والمتشبھات من النساء بالرجال، والذی یأتی البھیمۃ ، والذی یأتی الرجال۔
Sayyidna Abu Hurairah ؓ عنہ reports that the Holy Prophet ﷺ said: "Four types of people are, when they begin their day, under the wrath of Allah and when they reach their evenings they are under the rage of Allah." I asked: "Who are they, 0 Messenger of Allah?" He said: "Men who imitate women and women who imitate men and he who goes unto animals and he who goes unto men".
و عن انم عباس ؓ قال : قال رسول اللہ ﷺ ـ من وجدتموہ یعمل عمل قوم لوط فاقتلوا الفاعل و المفعول بہ
Blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny and grant him peace.
So, if you believe that Muslims are for homosexuality than you are wrong. Very wrong. Homosexuality has curses laid upon it. And Transgender even more than homosexuality!
But you can argue all day in light of political correctness because you have been taught not too say anything against any injustices you see. It is a very sad day. Home of the free indeed.
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Warren Calvin Wall
What most non-Muslim fail to understand is that the Muslim outlook is that there are only 2 kinds of people in the world, Muslim and Infidel. Infidels must convert or die. Simple.
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Paul Edward Nunis
The best trick that God ever pulled, was to create 3 religions from the same Abrahamic narrative, and turn them against each other... in His name.
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Russel A. Kester
Paul, first I am happy to see you acknowledge God. That's wonderful. Though I think it's the adherents of those three religions not God who cause any animosities.
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Steven Ferrell
Why is this a surprise. If any did any study of muslims they would have known this would come about. They are very much against that lifestyle and in countries where some of them are from, the stone gays.
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Canadian Yankee
You can not make a deal with religous folks that goes against their religion. They will turn on you at the first opportunity and claim the high ground becouse they are doing the will of thier god.
As a general rule I go with the, no flags except the ones representing political areas, National Flag, State Flag. etc.
Given the recent ruling of our disgraceful SCOTUS concerning the allowing of pray in schools I am waiting for some are like this on that opens each class day with prayer which is not Christian.
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Dori Mondon
Run for city council and vote them out.
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Robert Ruff
I don't believe that sexuality has any thing to do about loving GOD. GOD loves everyone! It turns alot of homosexuality people away from GOD when Christians start this mess. Every homosexuality person I know loves and accepts JESUS CHRIST as their personal SAVIOR. I have a problem with anyone or thing that trys to turn someone away from GOD. Unless GOD says get away from me himself (WHICH HE WOULDN'T) I wouldn't listen to them. It's the devil trying to keep you from SALVATION. THATS THE TRUTH! I love all humans whatever they wish to be called. Especially if it's Brother or Sister as a Christian. I love yall! By the way, I'm a straight, white, Christian, Republican, male from South Carolina and I still feel the way I expressed to yall. I love all yall!!! AMEN
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Daniel Ginther
Yes you can be a Homosexual Christian, and yes a Homosexual can get Born Again the problem is Homosexuality is a spiritual problem at it's core and Homosexual men and woman attract evil spirits to them....That's not good and something I chose to stay away from
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Sadly, bigotry and prejudice aren't a sin in Christianity - but that's okay it sounds like you need a witch doctor anyway.
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Pink Clover
Your comment is truly gross. No wonder so many of us have left religion.
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Ross B Tilton
What would Jesus or Mohammed do? Certainly not ban those flags.
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Michael Howard Schrader
Public buildings should stay neutral. The only flags or banners that should be displayed are the national, state, and local flag, so long as these are neutral as well.
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Paul Martin
Unfortunately this is happening across the Western World .. muslim immigrants build communities up so they become larger than the indigenous residents & so are able to take over councils & more .. once this happens they then make the changes to suit their beliefs & way of life .. they do not integrate with the communities already living in an area .. they make alliances, like this one with the LGBTQ+, to suit their agenda & then discard these “naive” allies when they are no longer needed .. I fear it is too late to turn the tide
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Rev. Terence Barry AC. OCC.
The LGBTQ+ movement has been taken over by Corporations who seek to profit from the community by building a Transgender Agenda which has totally divided whole communities as well as the LGBT community itself. There is an Alternative Gay community now which has broken from the current corporate run LGBTQ+ movement. Alternative Gay community withholds the original values based on equality for all the people no matter their gender or religion. Gays Against Groomers is another group who have broken from the Corporate Controlled LGBTQ+ movement. The break away Gay & Lesbian groups respect religious freedoms and ask that they too be respected, but at the same time the break away groups Condemn the Corporate Controlled LGBTQ+ which is a serious threat to children and women around the world.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
The threat to children is from pedophiles such as catholic priests who choose to insert their penises into the anus of a child, baby, or adolescent.
There is little to no threat from the LGBTQIA2S+ community.
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ServantOfJudgement
Elizabeth
The priests you describe are homosexual men. I think that's the G in your LGBTQIA2S+ community. Let's make sure we have a clear separation from Catholics and the wolves in the sheep barn. I'm not saying all gay men rape boys, just the evil ones.
A straight man is incapable of molesting a boy. Hence his straightness....
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Prove it SOJ.
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Elizabeth Allyn Smith
WOW. I don’t even know how to reply to your comment. Certainly doesn’t feel like there’s any love coming from you…
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Vivian Lozon
A place that is for all people should not be displaying other groups flags. I agree that the state and American flag is enough. I do not have homophobia. I have friends and work with people who are gay and lesbian. I have friends of of all races and colors. What gets me really angry is that same sex is being showed everywhere, tv shows, movies, etc. We know you are gay or lesbian but do you have to , for lack of better word, flaunt it? I don’t care , it gets me angry when a child who makes a picture of a rainbow because they like rainbows is labeled or they are gay/lesbian. They support them. For crying out loud they just like rainbows!! Does anybody wonder or think that all of this talk about who one is sexually attracted to or questions if they are a girl or boy is because of everyone adults and children being exposed to the worldwide exposer to this topic and discussion? Social media and news can make things really complicated and messy when it doesn’t need to be. I get angry with the celebration of a whole month being celebrated for a culture or group of people. This is the United States celebrate everyone or no one. That is how this country divides itself. Everyone wants to be recognized and be better than another group or culture. It’s not right.
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Frank J Siwy III
The people of Hamtramick voted the city council in place. What are they complaining about now? If you don’t like the decisions then change the city council!!
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Kelly C Woolsey
God loves everyone. So should you. Jesus died for all of our sins. Doesn’t matter what sin. If someone truly believes and asks Jesus into their heart. And loves Him they will go to heaven. We all sin. God just wants us to love Him and one another without judgement! People should be able to live their life vets without fear or hatred.
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Daniel Jude Atkinson
The only flags that should fly on government property are government flags.
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Reverend William Reynolds
It's an abomination for man to be with man or woman to be with woman (Leviticus 20:13). For God made woman for man (Genesis 2:22-24).
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Pink Clover
Your bible doesn't matter to others who do not follow your religion. Should you be forced to follow the rules of other religions because THEY think theirs is the one true religion. Ya, thought not.
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Pastor George Day
According to mainstream interfaith teaching (Judeo-Christian & Islamic) homophobia and transphobia are both sinful, just as much as homosexual behavior or 'chopping' your body. So, again, we are feeding into a caricatured narrative.
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Michael Benjamin Roberts
Exactly what interfaith teaching are you referring to? Please site it here. Interfaith by inception was about accepting and welcoming all human beings into a shared (inter) and welcoming community. Looking forward to seeing the document you referred to in your post.
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Allen Seder
I live here and have followed the entire process. I agree with the council. They are not favoring their religion or their flags. The only flags allowed are the City, State and POW. The Muslims are the majority of the population. They have not banned any local activities, as was suggested. They are a very conservative group that votes Democrat. This has nothing to do with Trump, as I have read. In fact the elections have been majority Democrat in this area and all of Dearborn, also.
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Minister Raymond Butterworth
I feel we should be fair to all persons. Either we keep everyone's statues, flags, monuments, plaques, etc, or we get rid of all of them. No one should be not allowed to put out their flags while others have their's waving in the wind. This is my thoughts. We do or we do not. Nothing half way.
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James Richard Munro
LGBTQ ? It's in the Bible. You can NOT be a Christian and an LGBTQ. Read it for yourself. This perversion should stop.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Which version of your Bible? Ohhhh the version you agree with! LOL!
If your god is that hateful it’s no wonder you are. Pity.
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Pink Clover
I am not a Christian. I left ALL religions many years ago because of people like you. YOUR behavior is what is perverted. Seriously, why all the hate? You don't like gay sex? Don't have it! Good grief people!!
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Bond Wright
Cite the passages, please. Thank you. Rev. Bond Wright
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Jesse Mixson
man an woman is how GOD WANT IT TO BE.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Prove it.
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Pink Clover
Which god?
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Marsha Whittington Abelman
The first comment I read on this thread is the sensible one and the procedure that ensures all of us equality regarding our public spaces: "Honestly I don't think any non-government flag should be flown on government property." (thanks, Colleen McAllister).
Religious text quotes have no place in this discussion of government property.
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Russel A. Kester
I'm not sure I agree with you, Marsha. Public buildings fly all kinds of flags and banners to generate and support various causes. Being public means they're owned by everyone. While our constitution protects us from government imposing a religion on us, I'm not convinced that means it must be blind to the faithful under its authority. So it should be reasonable for governments to acknowledge these groups as part of the larger community even on government property.
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Tareq Asfour
let’s be honest before the creation of America everybody was practicing of what was written to them in order mankind to follow for the benefit betterment of humanity pertaining to our Great God(swt) commandments. Later mankind introduced religion to the mix as forefathers of America started to play around with those commandments of God(swt) changing the narrative of the storyline. We can see nowadays, how many false preachers across the America as a nation, look at how much false churches and denominations are pertaining to Christianity about over 41,000 been allowed to pollute within and abroad worldwide. We can’t blame the Muslim Ummah trying to preserve their faith from others.
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Peter Senderowitz
Why do people who feel "oppressed" think that other so-called oppressed social groups simpathize with each other Identity politics by nature are exclusivist. Also, government, though distorted and corrupt it might be, represents " The public thing ". Thus, like the various religious beliefs, identity politics, like any other political beliefs , should be separated from the public realm. Tom Pain
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Lance Smith
https://youtu.be/fQXtxSBQGmA?si=LvNtwxpLqU6HA2NJ This should sum it up for all about sexual freedom!! https://youtu.be/fQXtxSBQGmA?si=LvNtwxpLqU6HA2NJ
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Russel A. Kester
Perhaps Daniel is referring to the DEI policies the Biden administration is forcing on the country and, in turn, are causing far more division than unity because that is always the end result of such policies. Many Americans see what is happening and are rejecting such policies as well as the administration which has made them one of its central tenants. It seems that various groups of all identities have growing numbers of their members moving to Republican candidates as a result.
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Dr. Kirk W. Olsen, P.E.
You came to a largely Christian country that does not allow or tries not to allow too much religion in government. Muslim is no different. You cannot impose your minority view on others.
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Nonnye Lynn Lucky
The seperation of church and state seems to be being shredded and the communities of the US are letting it happen. There a Facist in all walks of life. This community is showing its true color. If you are an American then the laws and priveliges apply to all equially and NO ONE has the right to take that away from anyone. And other than religious reasons, what reason should the rights of the LGBTQ+ Community be allowed to be attached? What is happening to people who are not "the same" as some self rightous prick IS illegal and wrong and these people are again having to fight for their rights that are already a part of their prevlige of being American. Anyone who thinks that what is happening to the LGBTQ+ is not going to happen to them are fools.
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Timothy Paul. Forrester
I don't approve of the gay flag because it's the rainbow color. After God flood this world: he told Noah the he'd give a sign that he wouldn't flood this world any more and that sign was the rainbow: so everything you see a rainbow in the sky just remember the Promise God gave to Noah: and now us. As for gay Minister's one must follow his/her own Heart and the Bible (God's Holy word.)
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Merlin
It's government - neutrality.
The truth is immigrant populations tend to slant conservative. This religious community has certainly shown it's colors.
And the LGBTQ community is correct, they were betrayed - which makes it apparent any percieved agreement on their side was imaginary. I feel the days of the all-muslim city council are numbered.
I hope this becomes a lesson to all religious conservatives of the value of inclusiveness, tolerance, and friendship.