The City Council in Hamtramck, Michigan, has unanimously voted to ban the LGBTQ Pride flag on the grounds that it offends religious sensibilities.
The decision caps off three months of incendiary debate on the subject.
But unlike your typical standoff between the LGBTQ community and faith groups in the U.S., the Bible had no part to play.
Instead, it was the Quran being referenced... because Hamtramck is a majority-Muslim city.
It is now forbidden to fly the Pride flag on government property anywhere in city limits.
The situation has turned two historically marginalized groups against one another – and led to some awkward questions about what happens when LGBTQ rights and religious freedom collide.
“Don’t Put It Down Our Throats”
City councilors argued that Hamtramck is already welcoming to the LGBTQ community, but that flying the Pride flag on government buildings is one step too far and tramples on the religious beliefs of its residents.
"We want to respect the religious rights of our citizens," argued City Councilman Nayeem Choudhury. "You guys are welcome… Why do you have to have the flag shown on government property to be represented? You're already represented. We already know who you are… By making this (about) bigotry… it's making it like you want to hate us."
The city council vote to ban Pride flags from government flagpoles follows months of often contentious debate. During a lengthy session where the public was welcome to comment, two women kissed in protest:
Despite outrage from the local LGBTQ community and allies, the ban was passed unanimously.
With some eyebrow-raising wording, local resident Hassan Aoun summed up the position of those in favor of the ban.
“Don't put it down our throats," he said. "You can be gay by yourself.”
Pride or Prejudice
If this community sounds familiar, it’s because this isn’t the first time they’ve been in the news lately. Earlier this year, the Hamtramck City Council legalized animal sacrifice, which incensed the animal activist group PETA.
Some of the same individuals spearheading the Pride flag ban were also involved in the abject pandemonium at a nearby Dearborn, Michigan school board. Protesters there – many of whom were also present at the Pride flag ban – flooded school board meetings to demand that books with LGBTQ content be removed from school libraries.
That one-two punch has the LGBTQ in the Hamtramck community feeling very unwelcome – despite the city council’s insistence otherwise.
One resident, Hayley Cain, said the recent Pride flag ban "sends a clear message of discrimination."
She moved to Hamtramck because "I knew it was a diverse community," Cain said. "I'm questioning whether it is. I don't want to live in a place like this.”
Rep. Rashida Tlaib, one of the first Muslim women elected to congress, also expressed her dismay at the decision:
Can Islam and LGBTQ Rights Coexist?
That's the question many are pondering after this latest controversy.
Skeptics point out that most schools of Islam teach that gay marriage (or any type of same-sex partnership) is a grave sin. In certain Muslim-majority countries, gay people are routinely given the death penalty. Critics ask: how could such religious teachings possibly be compatible with LGBTQ rights?
However, others argue that Muslims and queer people can absolutely coexist.
Among them is columnist Wajahat Ali, who appeared on MSNBC and spoke about fostering a "big tent" where Muslims set aside their religious beliefs about LGBTQ people for the greater good of progress.
What is your reaction?
109 comments
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Amy Varela
Using religion to legislate anything in the public sphere is a violation of the 1st Amendment. Any elected or appointed person who uses religion in their official government capacity needs to be removed from office, prohibited from ever running again and fined a hefty sum.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Any person elected of a religious background has every right to abide by their faiths moral teachings if it agrees with our values in the founding documents. Religion.did play a vital role in our founders beliefs and there is quote after quote even from Thomas Paine who cried for a revolt against England. He was an avowed atheist or possibly an agnostic. A few were Deists but still held to religion playing a roll. Washington was a practicing Anglican and a full honored Free Mason . 9ne's religious values and morals should never take 2nd place. God was placed first in the founding of this country and we have displaced him with the killing of the unborn and moving towards euthanasia and depopulation all under the fake guise of climate change. What these elites do to the environment with their lithium mining, genetically engineered produce, and now fake meat grown from a woman's ever reproducing cancer cells just to kill people while they will enjoy what they ban from the rest of us is enough to argue that religion should play a role in each and every person's decisson making in government as long as it doesn't undermine the Constitution. If people would do the research they would find the world wide alphabet community is heavily funded by Soros, Gates, the Clinton Foundation, and Obama, and many other rich elites. So go right on ahead and defend these crazy clowns. There is an ever-growing gay group which is against the alphabet clowns that is beginni.g to speak out against their getting in people's faces. Especially when one of their slogans is "We're Here, we're Queer. We're coming for your children".
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/does-video-show-nyc-drag-marchers-chanting-were-coming-for-your-children/ar-AA1d4TaP
Today's conservatives, particularly religious conservatives, are terrified of everything, and absolutely convinced they are perpetual victims.
Right-wing media feeds the frenzy, and right-wingers just can't get enough. That's what this episode has proven.
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Marathuzula
Solid call to end all three cults of abraham
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Solid call to strip you.of your American citizen ship and on a boat intended to sink.
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Thom
Here is the problem. This population needs to be represented by their own constituents in every city across the nation. this is the only way they will become equal.
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Gary R. Modrall
Very hypocritical of this Muslim community..."you can be gay just don't shove it down our throats"...you can be Muslim, just don't shove it down OUR throats...which is what this religion has done for decades ruining...running the community for decades...where's the outrage of separation between church and state in this community? Muslim religion is the government here and there doesn't seem to be any caring, outrage or grief over this here, but everywhere else in America, don't you dare pray or breathe the word GOD or JESUS...the future for this nation and all is scary...
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Warren Calvin Wall
I'm going to assume that the furry contingent should be careful about presenting themselves in public. You know, being that animal sacrifice is legal and all. Getting sacrificed could become an awkward situation.
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ServantOfJudgement
I agree with everything everybody said even if the statements are in direct conflict with one another. Do not respond.
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Rev Mark D
Okay servant, this is me not responding.
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Russel A. Kester
I've thought about this and have decided that the city council's decision, though probably lawful, is wrong. The reason it's wrong is that they based it on religious sensibilities not well reasoned principles. Such a course leads to laws that silence anyone who does abide by the society's dominant group which becomes intolerant of other groups. This intolerance is Islam's biggest failure. Vociferous defenders of allowing larger and larger numbers of Muslims into the US closed their eyes to just how intolerant Islamic beliefs are to many other groups in society. Their mental dissonance will not allow them to see this reality. They are the proverbial ostrich that sticks its head in the sand until it gets it a** kicked and then it's too late. While I oppose the idea of codifying the US as a Christian nation, it's better alternative to it being an Islamic nation which all Muslims are required to demand in the country where they live.
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Julie Ann Jenista
This is not about discrimination. This is about forcing people to have pride in a lifestyle which does not correlate with their beliefs. Very few people hate lgbtq+ for their lifestyles, but people forcing people to accept and support and even have pride in something they cannot because of their morals and values is in itself discriminatory to everyone else. You cannot please everyone, and when we stop trying too, we can get back to some sense of moral boundaries which allow all of us to co-exist.
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Steven Ferrell
Why must the rainbow flag be flown on government buildings for them to feel welcome in a community?
I’m Irish, should I demand an Irish flag be flown so I feel welcome in a community?
Should we demand all military branches of the armed forces flag be flown to let Veterans know they are welcome?? The list could go on and on.
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Rev Ned
Is Sharia Law next? It seems to me that Muslims are all for tolerance and inclusion while they are in the minority, but when they reach majority status, like the plot of every western film ever, “Them days are over.”
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Gary James Thomas Garrett
The resolution restricts the city from flying any "religious, ethnic, racial, political, or sexual orientation group flags" on public grounds. I believe on public grounds the only flags that should fly should be the American Flag, The State Flag and a city flag if they have one. The only thing wrong with this ordinance is it doesn't specifically ban that insipid police flag with the one blue stripe.
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Takaya Kovani Sweeney
That’s the end of the argument then and it’s fair.
Just stick to the country’s flag and that’s that.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Religiously delusional hypocrites caught with their, uh, gayness out. https://youtu.be/yMsG9ScQP9I
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Rev Mark D
Boring!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It's hatred, bigotry, prejudice, paranoia, pure and simple.
https://www.adl.org/resources/report/year-review-anti-lgbtq-hate-extremism-incidents-2022-2023
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Rev Mark D
Hate?
So get your friends on the council and then the council will vote differently.
Now maybe we're just being deaf to the language of possibility and the language of politics.
For instance: Suppose a group came to the city council and said "we'll donate $20,000 to the city to have that flag up." Or suppose a group approached each council member privately and said "We'll give you $15,000 to your campaign fund if you support the idea of having a flag up there. And we'll give out public statements approving of the job you're doing, name some favorite policies or activities of yours or some of the things that you've done and giving you credit for them publicly. "And we won't force you to make public statements that would threaten your support among what you consider to be key constituencies. This is all about a little bit of public symbolism, which is whatever the viewer decides it is after all."
Boring, like I said.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That's your second comment on how "boring" this issue is.
You have nothing better to do?
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shiningwolf9
My daughter/son is Trans, I have/do work with many with different sexual preferences, and friends with many. My thoughts are, Why?, What is it about having a flag wherever you want? I am a Witch ( not Wiccan), but don't desire a flag flown to make myself stick out, though I am open about who I am, without flaunting it. What about having flags for each RACE, RELIGION, BELIEF SYSTEM? Let you, your lifestyle, beliefs, writing, activism, etc. be your "flag". Wear your "colors" (your flag), place them many places, but pick your battles wisely. A flag (of whatever !!!) should never become a war cry for itself. Become an activist, write, speak, etc., Don't let a flag become more important!!!! Including the American Flag!!!! It has become a laughing stock! More is fought over it, but hardly anyone lives up to its' supposedly symbology.
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Rev Mark D
Yes, you know anybody who ever criticized conservative support worshiping the flag and for wanting to punish people who don't respect the flag, well I guess they lose their argument now if they demand to have a flag themselves. At least they lose the moral weight of it. Everybody's a monkey, monkey-see monkey-do. Boring.
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Rev Mark D
Yes, you know anybody who ever criticized conservative support worshiping the flag and for wanting to punish people who don't respect the flag, well I guess they lose their argument now if they demand to have a flag themselves. At least they lose the moral weight of it. Everybody's a monkey, monkey-see monkey-do. Boring.
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Cindy L Edgar
The government should honor everybody's religious beliefs I'm not a Christian I'm not a Baptist I'm not any of those holy rolling beliefs I believe in paganism but if you say anything about that oh my goodness that's a devil's thing which it's not sadly for stupid people out there paganism was the very first belief ever and one of the oldest religions out there but were put down for it too and nobody wants to honor that but I think everybody's religion should be able to be honored not segregated it's against the law to segregate anybody's believe don't believe me look the laws up
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Joe Stutler
Bigotry isn't limited to the Xtian flavor of Abrahamic mythology.
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Brien
Wow, now I have spoken about the bigotry of the Catholic religion and all of it's forms, but the Muslim belief makes the Catholic beliefs look like a sunny picnic day. Having said that, everyone is entitled to have an opinion. When folkes come together and decide their opinion should be a law, or ordinance, they must be able to show that without this rule, the public would be harmed in some way. That is the basic process. Now, if you don't like it, then you and a group that shares your opinion may vote against it. That's it. Simple. Enough with the creating controversy. I don't understand why grown people are so easily programed to hate. This topic was clearly written to evoke hate in yet another mythical belief. As I said, everyone is entitled to have their belief. You don't need to agree with it, but you also don't need to participate in the pre-programed hate discussion. Peace ✌️
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Rev Mark D
"...I don't understand why grown people are so easily programed to hate..."
It's in our genes. Locists are just friendly little grasshoppers until a set signal or conditions trigger the "swarm" switch. That's us, too.
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Brien
Nice, it's nice to know that our species amounts to nothing more than a swarm of insects. So, using that new knowledge, the human race will live forever because cock roaches can survive anything, even blind stupidity. Thanks for the lesson. Peace ✌️
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Cindy L Edgar
Stop trying to control everybody's life and tell him what they can do and what they can't do it's their decision not anybody else's I disagree with this post I am all for pride month I will fly anything in my yard let somebody try to find me or something that I believe in I'll take it to the highest courts in the world yes I am a minister and I still stand for anybody that wants to be married to the same sex person and I honor everyone for standing for their rights I do same sex marriages there's nothing wrong with it stop trying to segregate
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Daniel Gray
Your yard, you can do whatever you wish to your and in your yard as long as it does not violate local ordinances/HOA rules if you are in one or state/federal law. You want to put up flags, feel free. You just dont have the right to tell city hall that they must bow to your demands. You can ask or request, but thats all you can do.
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Cindy L Edgar
But as I'm going to say again that goes against everybody's constitutional right to do what they want to do or fly any flag they want to flag and that should go for the government officials too they should not have the right to say they're not going to let somebody fly a flag that represents freedom of people's rights or put something up or honor gay right pride I called that segregation they're not allowed to do that and it's against the law I know the laws I'm not stupid I took law for years and I still studied the laws that was city council being stupid been trying to make their own laws and rules
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Daniel Gray
But since the Government is the one who decides if you can fly the pride flag, you cant get upset at the ones who voiced their opinions. The Government works for them and if they get one more person to say no then the others got to say yes, then its no. Complaining about it here wont help you
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Daniel Todd Kamm
"Render unto Caesar..." as the saying goes...keep religion personal and at home and out of the public sphere. Under the law every person and community is equal and entitled to the same recognition and benefits whether one agrees (religiously, politically or otherwise) with it or not.
When were these community "leaders" given the sandals of their professed teachers and prophets?
I say it every day... "you take care of you, not everyone else," which means... 'mind your own business and stop messing with other people.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The Republican platform has no coherent basis other than a race to the bottom to find the lowest common denominator to put the Republican leadership in power. This is why right-wing media is constantly telling them immigrants are going to steal their job, give drugs to their kids, and rape their women. This is why they tell them the LGBTQ are going to break all their sports records and force them to marry a trans woman. This is why the DeFacto leader of the party of 'Family Values' is a serial adulterer and convicted sex offender (Trump).
They want votes to put themselves in power, and feeding outrage and fear has worked like a charm, so they keep doing it. They adopted the anti-LGBTQ+ stance for that very same simple reason.
https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/conservative-republicans-embrace-culture-war-extremes-and-vote-more/ar-AA1cs7Jo?
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Rev. Donut
Trump is not a convicted Sex offender.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So you want your daughter to date this guy?
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/may/09/e-jean-carroll-wins-trump-trial-verdict
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Jeremy Engelberg
Not sure if you posted this to the correct story.
To get you back on topic, in this space we are discussing how a city (Hamtramck) has decided against allowing a rainbow flag to be displayed on government property. A rudimentary search using a platform like Google would allow you to learn this city leans greatly in favor of the Democrat party.
Had you read between the lines, and noticed Hamtramck recently voted to make animal sacrifice legal, you might come to the conclusion that this is a unique situation, in a unique city with an uncommon voter base that follows their religion in not approving of the LGBT lifestyle (and is more than okay with animal sacrifice).
So theoretically, your peers (Muslims and Democrats) chose religion over virtue signaling in an attempt to keep power - per your argument and rant above. How does that make you feel? You obviously have to choose one side here - which one are you taking?
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Warren Calvin Wall
I'm going to assume that the furry contingent should be careful about presenting themselves in public. You know, being that animal sacrifice is legal and all. Getting sacrificed could become an awkward situation.
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Daniel Gray
Bring it up for a vote. The ones that get the most votes wins. But they must be VALID in city votes, that means no one from Detroit or Pontiac or any other place except inside these city limits will be counted. If the most people say absolutely not to a Pride Flag, then its not flown.
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Robert Edward Szekely
That's a great theory, but it's a precursor to mobocracy - where 51% can vote to kill the other 49%. Some things, like freedom of expression, shouldn't be able to be voted down, just because some people dislike what is being expressed.
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Daniel Gray
So you are now saying that if a person gets 51 votes for their bill, that it cant or shouldnt be put into effect as it might offend the other 49%? You do know that is how we elect people, how we have courts like the SCOTUS make their decisions and how its been in the US for 240+ years....but you seem to think its wrong?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Seems like the majority of Germany hated a certain religious group leading to WW2.
Think about that.
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Daniel Gray
Nope they were following orders, remember that. And it wasnt the citizens who did this, it was the military following the orders of One man
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Ah yes, the Nuremburg defense.
Didn't work then, doesn't work now.
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Steven Ferrell
Freedom of expression on your own property is one thing, freedom of expression for one group on government property is another.
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David Arthur Lewis
Yes, Daniel Gray! Just like they're doing in Uganda right now! Majority rule! Sharia Law in Amerika!!! Do you also approve of stoning the Gays?
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Daniel Gray
And do you live there? If not then you have nothing to say about it. And need I remind you that you were very happy about the SSM decision that passed only by a single vote? So using your logic should we go back and invalidate this decision all because you dont like the idea of majority votes?
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David Arthur Lewis
Hate, hate, hate. That's ALL you have Daniel Gray. Your life must be pure Hell.
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Daniel Gray
No its clearly YOUR life thats a living hell as you are coming up to the wall of reality that clearly shows you dont get everything you want or desire. Put on your big boy pans and deal with it
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Joe Stutler
Depends on what the applicable laws and policies say. It may be an all-or-nothing proposition. Locals voting on Rights is problematic.
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Daniel Gray
And what right are you talking about. Show me where its somehow a right to fly a pride flag at city hall? Thats one "right" I have yet to see encoded in law.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Show me how it's wrong to fly a pride flag anywhere. What are you afraid of, exactly?
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John D. Partin
Flying a Pride flag over a Catholic church or any church that still calls homosexuality a sin would be wrong because it would be disrespect for their beliefs and who they are, the same as flying a Swastika flag over a synagogue.
If you also wouldn't want a Swastika or a Hammer and Sickle Communist or whatever flag that you are against flown over your house, you should also show other people the same respect that you want shown to yourself and not fly that evil corrupted Pride flag over them.
The Swastika was once a symbol of the sun and goodness in Tibet and other countries before the Nazis appropriated it for themselves, just as the rainbow 🌈 was a symbol of God's promise never to destroy the world again by flood before gay people wrongly appropriated it for themselves. Even "gay" just used to mean happy before they wrongly claimed that word for themselves and corrupted the language, too.
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Michael Hunt
This is a false equivalency. The swastika was the symbol of a regime who systematically attempted a genocide of the Jewish people. The rainbow flag is a symbol of support and unity for the LGBTQ+ community which has been demonized, threatened, and attacked for decades by people, such as you, who believe them to be evil. Flying a swastika over a synagogue is not the same as flying a rainbow flag over a Catholic church, not even close. One is a symbol of hate and oppression, the other is a symbol of support and acceptance of a marginalized community.
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John D. Partin
Comparing the Nazis' appropriation of the Swastika to the gay community's appropriation of the rainbow 🌈 isn't a false equivalency, but an exact equivalency because both the Swastika and the rainbow were symbols of innocence until those two groups claimed them and associated them with different evils: one a racist evil and the other a sexual evil and immorality.
The Nazis also thought that they and the Germans were "a persecuted and marginalized community" after W.W.I and took revenge for that by conquering Europe and trying to conquer the world, the same as gay people have taken revenge for their persecution and marginalization by trying to get their agenda accepted by the world.
Both groups took symbols of innocence and goodness and transformed them into symbols of hate and different kinds of evil. No difference. Gay people haven't used military weapons for their attempted conquest of the world, as the Nazis did, but conquest by another method is still conquest.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
There is no responsibility for anyone to respect someone’s beliefs. I’ll respect your right to express them and then use the same right myself to state clearly that your beliefs are nothing more than evidence of your delusion thinking. I have no respect for the delusions religious people parade out for public inspection.
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John D. Partin
"Dr." Zerpersande, you still haven't answered if you have found any SECULAR and ATHEISTIC whack jobs after expatriating from the USA, since you have so much trouble understanding what is being asked of you and still "think" that you are being asked about religious "whack jobs", according to you, or just deliberately "misunderstanding".
Since you have found secular and atheistic whack jobs because we all know that they exist and in greater numbers than any among Christians, due to more non-Christians than Christians in the world, why do you continue to one-sidedly attack only Christians and find "whack jobs" among them?!!
I asked you about SECULAR and ATHEISTIC whack jobs already in Christian Farmer Faces Backlash Over Anti Pride Post and so am asking you again here, and will go on asking you in any other threads where I find you, to see if you will ever stop being too cowardly and evasive to answer the question. So, how about it? Are you still meeting SECULAR and ATHEISTIC whack jobs since expatriating from the USA and why are you, then, one-sidedly attacking Christianity and finding whack jobs only among Christians and religious people?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
No. People keep their religious views to themselves, thus atheists have no need to confront the religious nuts. Outside of close friends and family I find no need to discuss my atheism. So, no. The closest I came was a 7th Day Adventist on a train platform. He had his little girl with him so I did a couple of magic tricks for her while waiting for the train. As my train pulled up and I got ready to board he handed me a leaflet. Not knowing what it was I took it, jumped on my train. 7th Day Adventist crap.
And you seem to equate atheists getting in your face to being a whack job. Keep in mind that for at least as long as the bible has been around you religious whack jobs have MURDERED atheists. Ditto witches. There are whack jobs that believe in astrology and crystal power and I don’t confront them unless a relationship exists that puts me in frequent contact with them. Why? They generally keep the nonsense to themselves, they aren’t trying to legislate their silliness into the lives of others and they aren’t trying to have it included in my science classes. I have zero tolerance for your ilk. Now, IF you will treat your idiocy like the weird sexual fetish I described and just keep it to yourself and stop trying to legislate in everyone’s daily lives, then I’ll treat you like someone that believes their daily horoscope and just have pity on you for the ignorance you display.
No, I don’t meet secular and atheistic whack jobs.
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John D. Partin
If you really don't meet any secular and atheistic whack jobs and aren't just lying about that, too, as usual, it's because you aren't looking very hard or at all or refusing to recognize and admit to them even when you actually do meet them and applying a much different standard to them than you do to Christian "whack jobs" and giving them a pass.
Because the rest of us who aren't giving them a pass and refusing to recognize them see them all the time and so it could only be your bias in their favor that keeps you from seeing them.
You are still only one-sidedly attacking Christianity and finding "whack jobs", according to you, only among Christians, because of people who weren't even following the teachings of Christ (and yet condemning Christianity because of them, which is insane and illogical!), while not calling atheistic Communists and Nazis whack jobs for all their MURDERING of millions more people than any phony "Christians" have done, thereby proving your double standard, hypocrisy, and bias against Christianity!!
As I have told you before, nobody is a Christian just because he or she says that he or she is, but only if they follow the teachings of Christ, and love, forgive, be merciful, and care about their fellow human beings. That excludes the Inquisitors, Crusaders, Conquistadors, those fighting in "holy" wars and in Northern Ireland, and all other murderers and hateful people from being actual Christians.
It is intellectually lazy and dishonest for you and others to just lump actual Christians in with these false "Christians" and dismiss all of Christianity because of the worst people claiming to be "Christians" and is the same as hating all black people or white people or Jews or Asians or Hispanics or Muslims or any other group because of the worst examples in them. So, are you also believing in and practicing racism and following suit from your religious bigotry?
Why don't you treat your idiocy like the weird sexual fetish that it is and stop transferring your actual condition on to me and other people and be honest with yourself, for a change, and just keep it to yourself and stop imposing that on other people?!! And then, we would rightfully pity you and hope that you could ever get better, sometime, as opposed to your laughable and illogical "pitying" of Christians, which you tell yourself to hide the truth about yourself from yourself!!
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Michael Hunt
"As I have told you before, nobody is a Christian just because he or she says that he or she is, but only if they follow the teachings of Christ, and love, forgive, be merciful, and care about their fellow human beings. That excludes the Inquisitors, Crusaders, Conquistadors, those fighting in "holy" wars and in Northern Ireland, and all other murderers and hateful people from being actual Christians." This ^^^ is a no true Scotsman fallacy and a bad argument. They certainly considered themselves Christians and acted in the name of Christianity so they are Christians.
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John D. Partin
Only those who are following Christ's actual requirements for being his followers, not just falsely saying or thinking they are doing so to suit themselves, are actually following Christ. This "no true Scotsman fallacy" nonsense is merely an attempt to deny that we should expect people to live up to Christ's teachings and practices to actually be his followers, which is ridiculous!!
By this will all men know that you are my disciples: if you have love for one another. By their fruits you will know them. Jesus never said that his followers should torture or kill people and so those who have tortured and killed people in Christian history weren't true Christians, but merely deluding themselves.
You want people who have tortured and killed people "in the name of Christ" and violated Jesus' teachings to still be considered "Christians" because that allows you to blame and condemn all of Christianity because of them, which is illogical, unreasonable, unrealistic, and unfair.
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John D. Partin
"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers'. (Matthew 7:21-23).
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. (Matthew 7:15-20)
This "no true Scotsman fallacy" nonsense is just trying to convince us that Christians don't have to live up to Christ's teachings and practices in order to be his followers, which is a lie and contradicted by these and many other Scripture verses. Or else why are those who are actually following Christ's teachings and practices called "being the true Scotsman" in that fallacy nonsense?!!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I live in a different country. A country that you have almost certainly never visited. I’ve tried to explain to you that xtians are rare. The percentage is in the single digits. Proselytization is extremely rare. Politicians do NOT discuss religious beliefs.
Believe what you want though. You already have a worldview that includes an imaginary magician so what’s the difference in adding a bit more incorrect information.
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John D. Partin
And, again, I'm asking you about the idiocy of secular and atheistic whack jobs on their own, not their reactions to Christians, and so the number of Christians in your country is irrelevant. When your atheists and secularists are just among themselves and you are there with them, what are their whack job actions and words, if you can recognize that in anyone other than Christians, according to you, or just suddenly become incapable of recognizing whack jobs among those that you agree with, for some not very mysterious reason.
You gave one piece of that idiocy yourself when you said that God is "an imaginary magician" because believing that the universe had no power bringing it into existence and, without any mind of its own, is managing its own affairs is far more mythological and idiotic than anything that you say about Christianity.
You can't even get a car to drive itself around without a person behind the wheel or a house to just start building itself without any people building it, but illogically and mind-bogglingly lopsidedly, believe that the entire mindless universe is doing everything for itself and made itself, which is logically impossible!! That is how mythologically you "think". Fix your own thinking before commenting on anyone else's.
You proselytize for atheism and worldly "thinking" just by living according to them, even before any conscious effort to spread them. So, you do proselytize for atheism and worldly "thinking". As St. Francis of Assisi said "Preach at all times, and sometimes use words". Atheists preach for your views without words, too.
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Daniel Gray
Nobody is afraid of anything, but you seemingly think that somehow its your right to do anything you want. That is not going to fly. You need to get a permit to have a parade, you need to have a permit before you can start building anything. You need to have your local government come in and inspect what you have built to make sure it conforms to the standards. and at any time they can REVOKE said permits.
So please show why whenever you get turned down for something you start in with this mess. So what are YOU afraid of if the majority of the people dont want this flag there, you going to try and force them to accept it? And if thats the case, are you not then shoving this down peoples throats, the same thing you keep saying you are not doing? Nobody has to believe the same thing you do and you cant force them. Deal with it
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Show me all the laws against the religious DG.
https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
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Najah P Tamargo
Minister Najah Tamargo USA
OMG!!!! Everyone needs to just SHUT UP!!!!! Remember when the Trumpster tried to ban Muslims from entering the country????? Why are we all at each other's throat????
Love, respect, kindness and understanding is what I believe in. Too bad the rest of the world can't get on board!!!!
If you don't agree with a group, stay away from them. Go live your own closed minded little lives and let everyone else be.
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Pamela Kay Waters
That was a great idea
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Russel A. Kester
Najah, perhaps you should take your own advice and go elsewhere. This is our process to hash things out, hear other views, and exchange ideas. It can get pretty ugly, but it's better than shutting people up because someone doesn't like what someone else said.
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Pink Clover
I didn't feel Najah was talking to anyone here, specifically. That felt more like a "shut up world!" kinda comment, and I completely agree.
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Rev. Kev
Seems to me that city property should be a place for all the city residents. Their taxes keep the place running. Don't see why they can't give some time and space to the LGBTQ folks at certain dates. Maybe dedicate a flag pole somewhere for various nonreligious groups in the city to fly a flag or banner for their organization or cause. Sign up at City Hall to reserve a spot. Everyone gets equal time.
Just a thought.
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Pamela Kay Waters
Why should they be more sympathetic to some groups when white people are becoming the minority in this country
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Rev. Kev
Pamela Kay Waters,
I don't even understand your question. What does the one thing (sympathetic to some groups) have to do with the other (lower percentage of a given population)??
In my eyes, it made as much sense as asking "Why should I eat apples when the local Ford dealership is closing down this year?"
A civil society works best when its members exercise basic human abilities, like empathy. Putting ourselves in the shoes of another is a basic teaching in many religions and philosophies because it's how we can understand others, as well as different aspects of human existence beyond our limited, personal scope. We care for others and help the social group, as a whole, flourish. When a group degrades to a bunch of individuals just looking out for #1, that group will eventually cease to exist.
We are happier and able to focus on other things when we are in a friendly, secure environment. We don't need to spend all our time doing everything for ourselves and fending off our neighbors from stealing our stuff or killing us.
I don't want to live in a hostile environment, so I want to do all I can to make sure I mirror the behaviours I want to see in others to achieve a friendly, secure environment. That way, we are all happy and less stressed out. Less stress and anxiety means better physical and mental health to increase happiness. When we are all happy, everyone wins. Our society flourishes.
What can possibly be wrong with that?
All that being said.......I'll point out that stuff is constantly changing. Always has. Always will until the Universe ceases to be. We can either exercise wisdom and accept the inevitable or we can whinge that things are doing what they are gonna do whether we like it or not.
People change. Populations change. Cultures change. That's life. I can't stop it from happening. So I accept current reality as it is now. That doesn't mean I don't put effort into doing things to ensure some sort of safety or happiness or whatever in my own future (knowing my plans may have to change or even be sidetracked completely). But I have zero control over other people or events. I can't change the past or the present. Those are fixed. Being unhappy about what happened or what IS now only hurts me by making my day miserable over something I can do nothing about.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Good answer, Rev. Kev. But PK Waters couldn’t even manage a question mark at the end of her question and your response used a LOT of words. Words that indicated disagreement with her less than clear statement/question.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Oh, come on now! Give me a break! Crying about the loss of "white privilege"? We never deserved having an advantage simply based on skin color. Where's the equity?
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Angelic Realms
The Constitution doesn't have equity or feelings. It has law and order. Everyone should be equal and that means no favoritism. The government has lost it's way with pandering the the loudest tantrum thrower. The last 10 years or so haven't been pleasant peaceful or civilized. Mob rule is chaos. Under the guise of pity, this is pandering to tyrannical forces. Equity is nonsense. It is a banking term. Look at the greedy scofflaws running this country I to the ground. All these adults with entitlement issues need to get over themselves. This rainbow mafia doesn't contribute Anything to a civilized contributing society. America looks like the Weimar Republic. It will end in tears.
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Russel A. Kester
I think you misread Pamela's comment. These rights we all enjoy talking about are civil rights given to us by a Western civilization as developed by white people. It should be no surprise that as whites are replaced in a society by other groups with other faiths and beliefs then those western civil values will be replaced as well in favor of the new dominant group. Islam has been very clear on not only it's beliefs on this and other things which totally oppose the current western values, but seems to replace them with its own. The right saw this coming, only the left closed it's eyes. Now is the time to look at this city and decide if that's the US you want for your descendants. Once our current culture is gone its gone for good.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
The left not once closed their eyes. They encouraged and perpetuated it just like the Communist takeover of this country by the communists who have sold out to China. An investigation of every Democrat would probably lead to money changing hands which is treason. Treason means the death penalty. I think we should have a BBQ and have a big execution on.national tv.
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Takaya Kovani Sweeney
I’ll agree if you’re going to throw all corporatists into the Bbq as well.
They’re on BOTH sides and are actively running the country into the ground for a buck.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
There are some corporate leaders who definitely care for our country, but most of them don't even care for humanity. Nutsacks like Bill Gates etc are only co.cerned gor themselves. And these liberals will cancel each other in the end if any of them awaken from their wokeness. Otherwise, throw them in jail for crimes against humanity.
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Takaya Kovani Sweeney
You seem laser focused on one side.
It’s BOTH.
If you can’t see that, there’s no helping you.
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Rev Mark D
I'm fine with muslims, they make damn fine food and if you are guest in their home they treat you like royalty. Just follow the same laws about our behavior like we all must do in this country, and just don't kill us please, that's all I ask.
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Rev Mark D
Robert, your question doesn't even make sense. A very big chunk of Eastern Europe is Muslim and they're all white. Maybe even whiter than you.
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Russel A. Kester
I don't believe this. Where did you get this fact?
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Rev Mark D
From all of my Bosnian Muslim friends. Do a little homework and learn something for a change.
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Joe Stutler
So what if they are? It wouldn't be the first time. Say hi to your Kleagle for us.
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Rev Mark D
Joe, you just gave me an idea for a name for my new beagle puppy. Kleagle the Beagle.
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Rev Mark D
Not bad.
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Rev Mark D
Rev Kev:
So everyone gets equal time on a flagpole reserved for those entities.
Is that to be as Civic organizations like Kiwanis?
Okay, what about the Aryan Brotherhood? What about The Oath Keepers? Jews For Jesus? Black Lives Matter (there's two of those groups, same name, one is the movement members and the other one is the guy who realized if he copyrights his name that way then everybody donates to him thinking it's the actual movement group, which is not, and he just keeps all the money).
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Rev. Kev
I sort of addressed this in an earlier response to you when I wrote:
"I think there's a difference between a flag representing a non-business, non-political group of citizens and flags representing business concerns, religious groups, or other governments (past and present)."
So, non-business, non-political, non-religion affiliated. Of course, it should be pretty obvious that no city should endorse or advertise -- thus putting in a favorable light or equal to other civic groups -- terrorist groups, antigovernmental groups (especially violent ones), or a crime syndicate like the Aryan Brotherhood.
Also bearing in mind that Hamtramck is not a large city.
If I can be blunt, you have struck me as someone with a good head on his shoulders. So I'm not sure why you asked this. The answer should already have been obvious to you. This seems more like a stab at a slippery slope fallacy or asked for shock value.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Sosev Menw. Christian Majority is quickly becoming the Christian majority as more and more people see how silly religion is and is being used for political agendas.
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Joseph Knopick
Sad that the Christian majority in this nation can't get together and pass the same rule nationwide.
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Rev. Kev
Why is that sad, exactly?
What actionable cause would justify the federal legislation (that could violate some jurisdictions' interpretation of Title VII of the 1964 Civil Rights Act)? Because "it's icky to me" doesn't cut it.
And why should a portion of a religious group have any sway in a secular government that's supposed to represent ALL the people?
P.S. in a study by the Pew Research Center, it doesn't appear the majority of Christians even oppose homosexuality or LGBTQ rights. The only groups where the majority oppose it are Evangelical Christians (55% of them), Mormons (57%), and Jehovah's Witnesses (76%). Wheaton College's Institute for the Study of American Evangelicals estimates that about 30 to 35% (90 to 100 million people) of the U.S. population is evangelical. Witnesses and Mormons make up smaller percentages. Those numbers are changing since religion is in decline in the U.S. The largest group in America is the unaffiliated group. The next size down was Mainline Protestant.
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Joe Stutler
Were you born a bigot or did you just turn out that way? Were your progenitors bigots as well?
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Rev Mark D
Doesn't putting a flag on government property seem a lot like putting an Amazon flag on government property?
And that makes me wonder about selling naming rights to a government building such as a coliseum or stadium. What if the group purchasing the naming rights calls it the gay pride stadium or the Mormon stadium? What about that?
And then what if a group purchase naming rights and called it Confederate stadium, or put up a Confederate flag?
And for that matter, if a gay pride flag is okay on a government building, then why can't a Confederate flag or a flag with a cross such as many nations have be on it?
And aren't there still nations with the Union Jack on its flag, can't they fly their flag at the UN and any UN office around the country? And what about a flag with a Swastika?
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Rev. Kev
I think there's a difference between a flag representing a non-business, non-political group of citizens and flags representing business concerns, religious groups, or other governments (past and present).
The city government represents its constituents. Shouldn't the actual constituents have some form of voice with their local government? Pretty sure no one is discussing ownership or licensing in this specific case. Just maybe hoist a flag during Pride Day or something. Maybe fly the local Girl Scout troop's flag when they're having a fundraiser. Make it just about the locals and their causes or interests. It can be an inspiration for creativity in local clubs to have their own flag or banner. Flower clubs. Pottery clubs. Reading clubs. Chess clubs. Show that the folks there have actual interests and talents. Lets others see what there is to look into. That there really is more to life than religion, politics and money.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Not all flags are made equal. It all depends on whether you flag represents a political viewpoint, a religious one, or represents civil rights. The latter should always be championed. The first two are sectarian and more divisive.
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Colleen McAllister
Honestly I don't think any non-government flag should be flown on government property.
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Anne 'Arie
I agree with you but I also think that one persecuted group should be a little more sympathetic to all the others.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Oh please. Neither group is persecuted.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.aclu.org/legislative-attacks-on-lgbtq-rights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
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Dane
Clear violation of the first amendment. The government can not limit free speech and freedom of assembly. This is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
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Joseph Knopick
If the ten commandments are not allowed in a courtroom, which is the basis for the British common law, then neither does this non governmental flag.
It us a ban on public grounds. Private citizens still have the right of expression.
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Rev. Kev
"common law, also called Anglo-American law, the body of customary law, based upon judicial decisions and embodied in reports of decided cases, that has been administered by the common-law courts of England since the Middle Ages.
"The English common law originated in the early Middle Ages in the King’s Court (Curia Regis), a single royal court set up for most of the country at Westminster, near London. Like many other early legal systems, it did not originally consist of substantive rights but rather of procedural remedies. The working out of these remedies has, over time, produced the modern system in which rights are seen as primary over procedure. Until the late 19th century, English common law continued to be developed primarily by judges rather than legislators."
-- Encyclopedia Britannica
Very few items from the Decalogue even appear in common law, or its modern versions. Basically, don't steal or murder. Maybe don't perjure if you read it the right way. All of which are incredibly common ideals for any society. And existed well before the Decalogue was written.
That said, I don't see the correlation between not allowing a specifically religious item in a courtroom and a non-religious flag fly on a pole. There are almost no direct points of comparison, except being on government property.
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Robert Edward Szekely
I'm not sure that comparing a Pride Flag to the Decalogue is an "apples to apples" comparison. The first expresses a civil rights victory for a formerly oppressed minority, while the latter is a regurgitation of a specific religious dogma.
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Rev Mark D
Sorry, exactly who is oppressed, and specifically how, since common law is so procedural (i.e., without doctrine) if a pride flag isn't put up on the government's property? What injury?
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Rev Mark D
Well anybody willing to pay to file and argue a claim or case can file a lawsuit. "Sue" means "request of the court." So what?
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Only the America, State, County, and City flags on government buildings.