Are Christians in America facing increased hostility from the media and the public?
This question came into sharper focus last week after one of the co-hosts on ABC's The View stirred controversy by mocking Vice President Mike Pence's deep Christian beliefs.
It all started when the co-hosts played a video clip segment featuring former White House staffer Omarosa Manigault, who warned that Americans shouldn't sleep too comfortably at night because their vice president believes "that Jesus speaks to him."
Co-host Joy Behar then took a shot at Pence, pointing out that "it's one thing to talk to Jesus, it's another thing when Jesus talks to you." She then took things a step further: "that's called mental illness, if I'm not correct. Hearing voices."
Mike Pence Responds
The comments quickly made the rounds on social media, and eventually elicited a strong response from Vice President Pence himself. Criticizing the attacks on his beliefs, Pence said it was "simply wrong for ABC to have a television program that expresses that kind of religious intolerance."
The incident was a clear example of "how out of touch some in the mainstream media are with the faith and values of the American people," he insisted.
Unsurprisingly, conservative Christian groups voiced overwhelming agreement, and pounced on Behar's comments as an example of Christian shaming and the so-called "War on Christianity" in the U.S.
So, what to make of this claim? Is there really a growing intolerance toward Christian faith in this country, or are people simply being oversensitive?
Christian Shaming in America
Christians who feel slighted will point to numerous instances of their beliefs being mocked or thrown under the bus.
For example, former NFL coach and media personality Tony Dungy unwittingly came under fire recently when he praised Super Bowl MVP Nick Foles and insisted his faith was an important factor in the Philadelphia Eagles' victory.
"Unbelievable you would use your employer, @NBCSports, to spout this nonsense on the air" one critic tweeted.
"NBC pays me to express my opinion," Dungy replied. "And it was my opinion that Nick Foles would play well because his Christian faith would allow him to play with confidence. And that he's a good QB. I think I was right on both counts."
Keeping in the world of sports, former NFL quarterback Tim Tebow was widely and frequently mocked for his open displays of faith. Tebow became notorious for kneeling in prayer before games and sporting Bible verses beneath his eyes habits for which he was picked on by fans and media alike.
More broadly, evangelicals and others who instinctively call for prayer in the wake of tragedies are increasingly accused of hiding their heads in the sand.
Blind faith isn't helpful, critics say, and it certainly cannot take the place of action. In the wake of the mass shooting in Parkland, Florida, even the seemingly-innocuous phrase "thoughts and prayers" has become a lightning rod for criticism.
When to Criticize Religion
Critics say they're pushing back against such statements because religious justification is a slippery slope. Sure, some people sincerely want to extend prayers to those suffering. But others might seek to weaponize their faith in order to impede progress or promote intolerance.
In a 2016 report by the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, Chairman Martin R. Castro argued that Christians often hide behind "religious liberty" as an excuse to discriminate against people or treat certain groups poorly. "In the past, religion was cited to justify Jim Crow laws, and oppose women's suffrage," said Castro. "Present day 'religious liberty' efforts are aimed at discriminating against the LGBTQ community."
Is this fair criticism, or further evidence of creeping Christian shaming?
**Finding a Balance
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Perhaps we'd all benefit from toning down the rhetoric a bit. It does no good to automatically attribute bad motives to those who profess strong Christian beliefs.
By the same token, crying wolf at every perceived slight against Christianity might not be the best way to win people over to your cause.
Thoughts?
274 comments
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John Puleo
Let God judge them...
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Clifford Oliver
Absolutely Tom..
We also become soul conscious.
The greatest crime of organized religion is the false separation. Or that we have to go through someone else to confess or to know God.
We are all Saints and Sinners. It’s which one we chose to serve the most.
https://youtu.be/rATT2mrFCIw
Peace Brother
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Clifford Oliver
Absolutely Tom.. The greatest crime of religion is the separation from God. That one has to go through man to know God.
I myself pretty much live by the great invocation.
Yes, Sedona was quite an experience for me as well. Missed the event that I went there for. But ended up meditatating on a mountain. Across from Chapel of the Holy Cross.
I did kind of receive a message myself I guess you could say, at the chapel. I had questions about my spirituality at the time. And asked for some kind of sign.
As I was leaving, a plaque posted on the rock wall caught my eye. It read something like “And he shall send his angels unto the masses” or something to that effect.
I believe we are all Saints and Sinners. It’s our choice which we serve most.
So yes, living it, and being a beacon for others is in my opinion the way to earn that halo.?
Peace to you and all
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Secretary3rd
Really? Jesus he says? Pence understands Hebrew. Good for him since Jesus only speaks in his native tongue. Jesus never bother to learn any Latin that was spoken by the Romans. Since you only know what you learn when alive poor Jesus limited himself to Hebrew.
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The Doctor
very unlikely many people in that region then and now speak upwards of half a dozen languages by the time they are 6. Its just a by product of living in an area that is a nexus point for travel and trade.
Jesus def spoke the language of the romans based on several of the stories about him.
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Clifford Oliver
Yes, exactly Tom.. Though my own strongest connections seem to be to Rosslyn.
I believe the Rosicrucians were founded on the principles. There are many mysteries, but truth is usually self evident.
Personally I believe it’s not about going to heaven. But rather enlightening others to create it on Earth.
Quite an undertaking though. ??
Blessings
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Tom B
Clifford...interesting way to characterize life...if we live loving lives, we are essentially exemplifying the Peace and Love in God...and that has the effect of our uplifting others...
With regard to the Rosicrucians...the primary reason i did not continue with the readings and teachings was that in the nineties i went to San Jose to go to the Rosicrucian campus and library, and it was closed...this happened to me in another context, when i went to Galisteo (New Mexico) to see Chris Griscom, at her home base, and it also was closed...i feel that when major doors like that are closed, i should listen, and for many years now i have been following the teachings of David Hawkins (i have been to Sedona, and it was open), and not adhering to any religion..
Peace...Tom.
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Clifford Oliver
The same thought crossed my mind as well William. Not too sure about Martha either? But you’ve got the right idea. Stay focused on Unity. There are many that are seeking to divide. Including those from other countries. The method is as old as warfare. Divide and Conquer. And just the opposite of what America and the World needs.
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Clifford Oliver
If one simply gives it to God to forgive and heal them from their sins. They never learn to accept responsibility for them. Or get in touch with the divine within themselves.
Your much greater than that. Own it..
The Halo is/was representative of the radiance that one emanated when in touch with that divinity.
If you look at the pictures from the Byzantine or Gnostic period churches. (Prior to it being attributed to angels.) You’ll see it surrounding his head.
The word Christ itself comes from the Greek Krystallos meaning Crystal or Radiant.
Look it up..
For those that are too closed minded to even consider that there may be more to learn. I can only wish you well on your journey.
Peace be with you
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Clifford Oliver
Amber, The best place is in the Center.. It’s where you’ll find your true and authentic self..? Blessings
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Clifford Oliver
Yes Tom, Unity.. Unity vs Division Divide and Conquer
I believe ULC is multitudes above as well. And I’m blessed to be a part of it.
Unfortunately there are many distortions of truth. But the heart is usually a good barometer.?
Walk the Walk ?
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_18.htm
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Jim W.
Don. Sorry to seem so harsh my friend. But I'm aware you won't be the on!y one reading this. I would hope they all have a little doubt, and consider their stances again? I didn't set the standards, but I am expected to share what I know. Its called the Great Commission. "Go ye into all the world & preach the Gospel (good news!) To every creature." The good news is that there's a way out. A Savior. If you seek him, he will make himself known to you.? All of you.
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Jim W.
That's all fine Don if all you care about is THIS life? What about eternity? Your willing to become a log on Hells fires so you can be right now? Your opinion dosent matter. There are laws & expectations at work. And that law will only allow for 1substitute for sin. Period! I didn't write it! I was just told to share it. You need to know! Pray for wisdom bud? Have a good day.
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Don Welch, Jr.
Everybody is entitled opinions. If your choice of faith works wonders for you and only YOU; then f@!k what anybody has to say about it or how loud. A relationship with the Divine should be between only you and GOD of your perception. There are infinite roads to GOD. Do not begrudge another's path and yours will thrive.
Light and love to ALL.
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Clifford Oliver
Thank you William.. Truth.. and well said.
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Clifford Oliver
The way I see it anyway, It’s not Christianity that’s under attack so to speak. It’s the radicalized version of it that has been bred by tv evangelists and fire and brimstone fundamentalists.
Walk the talk..
I’ll never forget when I was out of gas three miles from home. I asked a traveling evangelist if he could help me with just a gallon of gas? His reply was “This ministry is about the WORD of God.
What if not helping your brother, is the WORD of God?
Peace be upon all
Minister Clifford
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Clifford Oliver
Jim, This ain’t my first rodeo brother.?
I have past life memories including being a Templar. (You can believe me or not?) But I know the truth.
We don’t go to heaven. We come back through.
The Brotherhood is/was the Brotherhood of the Rose. And though many may not follow its ways, personally I do.
Has anyone ever considered that the Apostles that wrote the Bible might still be here?
One can interpret words to mean whatever they like. Yet the true message is to live it with your soul..
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Jim W.
The soul of everyone ever born is still around. And,always will be. Til the judgement. Then they will be sent to their permanent homes. And they got there by their own free will. They chose what to believe. I left the message. As instructed. Have a good day bud!
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Tom B
Clifford...it is good that you can recall past lives; we can learn from them, as we go from lifetime to lifetime, to resolve our karma, and finally go to Peace/God...there is no "judgment day"; that is just a religious construction to hold over people...and were you referring to the Rosicrucians?...i studied with them for a while, a number of years ago...Peace...Tom
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Bradley Friesen
Like many of you I joined this site so as asked I could perform a marriage ceremony for a dear friend. I found out later it was not nessisary. But here I am a fake clergyman engaged in with other fake clergy. This saddens me. What did I expect? Fake theologians spouting sophomoric arguments. I should have known. Here I am. I believe the question was about Christian shaming. Wow, has that been answered. The saddest part is the hate. We don’t know what’s in each other’s hearts. You cannot find peace with that much hate. Like all of you I’m a fraud, but I can choose to disengage from hate filled rhetoric. I can ask forgiveness and forgive. I am sorry. I know there will be no persuading here. No constructive dialogue. I am so sorry. I am a Christian and I pray for forgiveness, for a soft heart and the ability to forgive. If I offend you I hope you can forgive me. I can change many things but not my faith. 490
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Lee Boutell
Thank you Bradley, this needs to be said.
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William Waugh
This sermon is about christain shaming, not shaming us. You are free to interpret individuals here as fake. That is your privilege. However, most here see ordination as the privilege. We each have the opportunity to share and grow. And self knowledge (gnosis) is as, or more valid than established church education. I would suggest you take a moment to reflect on your fakeness. ........as you treat (see, feel, think of), these the least of my children, you do so unto me. I think you may know who said that.
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Tom B
Bradley and Lee...it is unfortunate that you constrain these remarks to the legalities of the ULC...the truth is that the concept of ULC is a positive step toward the unification of mankind...i do not favor organized religion, but i feel the ULC is miles ahead of Christianity, Judaism, Islam etc, none of which are a real benefit to mankind, as they, unlike the ULC, preach differences, instead of similarities...you can not be a fraud by preaching equality, love and peace...please think about it...thank you...Peace...Tom
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Martha Range
Bradley Friesen ~ You do not have the right to point your fingers at others and judge them. If you don't want to be a minister I suggest you leave this site, divorce yourself from it. You won't have to be associated with anyone here.
My part is that we are all who we are and at the end of time we will all go before him separately to answer. Be sure you have chosen rightly. It could be that you were led here to bring joy to someone else, but instead you turn inward and loathe yourself.
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William Waugh
The definition of minister with this organization is vastly different here than at any particular christian church. I think you will find that ministers here may banter back and forth with you a bit, then realize you are an individual unable to comprehend that "GOD" wears many faces and robes. The church message changes as the congregation changes. Science has proven there is no sky god. If there is, he/she was/is likely an astronaut. You clearly are most comfortable preaching to the choir. You really don't think you are going to convert many/any of us do you. I would posit that you should reflect on why you are here if you have nothing to learn from us. Thank "GOD" you only have a kerboard and pen. It us true and correct that some individuals really should not have access to weapons of mass distruction. Let he/she who has ears, let them hear!
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Ariel Raphahn
I think if we sat all day and watched any news show, we would find that there is a lot said that could be construed as any group being "picked on". It is the way of the world; create chatter, confuse, distract...
To try an stop it would be a waste of time. Ignore it. To give it your time and effort is empowering it. I think it might be better to just ignore it, move forward and keep building the Kingdom of God, not the world.
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Em
For Christians to utter the word intolerance makes the point. Those who hold the stance that only they have the right to be on the planet and everyone else is wrong will experience backlash to such ponitification. They do not know backlash from their holes in the ground.
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Clifford Oliver
Another Metaphor James.. The story of Noah simply reinforces the male and female aspects of everything.. To procreate it takes Two..
Although there are Asexual bacteria..
I grew up on these stories too.
My grandfather was both a Pentecostal preacher and a scientist. Somewhat like myself.
I actually followed in his footsteps regarding the physics of the Universe.
And it led me to metaphysics.
God and Science can not only coexist but share many aspects in nature.
If I were to call something God. It would be the force behind creation.
It is part of us and we a part of it .
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John ॐ
There is a HUGE difference between Christians who Worship the Jesus of the Bible- and today's American "Christian" Who worships a Political Republican Jesus, and admire a man like tRump as being a good Christian. They worship a VERY false Christ, an Antichrist. These American False Christians are more often the target of such criticisms.
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envoycommunications
I have to tell you John that that's sounds a little hateful. It is possible to be a Christian who worships Jesus and still support President Trump. We are living in an age of great divide and God (who puts all leaders in power) has given us Donald Trump. We are not fooled into thinking that our leader is a perfect Christian but I will accept what God has given us and to thankful that he did not punish us with the alternative. I love Jesus and this country.
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Martha Range
John ॐ ~ You do not have the right to judge others. God is the judge. He will sit in judgement on the final days. All the tares will be burned in the fire and the wheat shall be gathered by the Archangels.
Bringing politics, especially your hate into this is on you. You will pay for your sins, you alone.
Trump is a new Christian. He has not been saved long. He is still learning the Bible, praying, and studying daily. Stop hating what you don't understand and be happy we have a good, strong man at the helm of this country. He is anointed by the saints of the church and doing what he knows to do to make this country strong again. He's not perfect, but then, there was only ONE perfect man and he was crucified for you.
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envoycommunications
Christianity is a belief in Christ, Muslim is a belief in Allah and so on. What ever one sets as his or her doctrine is their belief and belief is a religion. So even an atheist has a doctrine and a belief that creates love and hate. All beliefs are guilty of atrocities throughout history so we need to stop the blame game. For an atheist, agnostic, or a Christian to use hateful language toward another belief is just hypocrisy. Even when they say they have no religion, that is their religion.
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Sara Rawlins
What I have a problem with Christianity, is the fact Jesus was a Jew. He lived the Jewish faith and died a Jew. Nowhere was he called Christ until the 1st century. So my point is this, most Christians I know try to live an exemplary life and not badger a person with different beliefs or views. It's the ones who claim Jesus as their Savior, but do so many unChristian things and claim they are doing God's work. They refuse to accept that Jesus was a Jew when he lived and died. Jesus didn't see the differences in all the people he came in contact with, he loved all people, the saints and sinners. He wanted them to know God as a loving Father. In his teachings, he didn't feel the need to convert everyone, just to let them know that there was someone who understood and loved them as they are. Beliefs don't need to be complicated, but there are those who want to make it that way.
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Larry
Yes, do not hurt anyone do not hurt yourself love simplistic but correct
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Martha Range
Sara Rawlins ~ Yes, Jesus was a Jew, He was raised in Jewish Law.
When he reached his majority he began a new law, the Law of FORGIVENESS.
The Bible is divided with Jewish law in the old testament and Christian law in the New Testament. The sacrificing of produce & flocks was discontinued and in the new, the sacrifice was Jesus himself.. when he died on the cross. This is the gift our God gave us because he loved us so much. All that is required is that one should repent his sin and accept that Christ died for him.
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Wendy K
The issue with all fundamentalist views of religion is the "true believers" don't understand that as Bill Fox said, God is talking to the reader. The guidance on this life's spiritual journey is about learning to know yourself - your inner world. While the condition of our inner world informs our actions in the outer world, it is not about making your doctrine or rules in the outer world something everyone else has to follow. Every religion is based on the experiences of a true leader, and philosophies that explore the same inner realm, agree on universal truths to live by. Although the religious hardliners like to qualify that "only ours is the right one and the right way" that is a fallacy.Science supports the universal tenets as well. Carl Jung, got it right when he said: "Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your own heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes." and ..."Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves." and..."Knowing your own darkness is the best method for dealing with the darknesses of other people." Pence is dark - he wants to legislate his personal version of Christianity into law - he's part of the "dominionist evangelical" movement in government as a whole, and in Congress.
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Jim W.
Wendy, Your inner man? Your truth? Your Karma? Karma? What is that? Another emotion? Your quoting some goof balls book, and berating a man who thinks goodness, honesty, & truth should be the fabric of America as wrong? Wow! You have internalized your beliefs. That's for sure. I can tell you believe you have a "True Leader" you think its you?
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Martha Range
Wendy K ~ I do not agree that Mike Pence is dark. He is a good, decent husband and a good Christian who is facing a daily, hourly onslaught of hatred and evil from people who are unhappy that their candidate lost the election. He is stoic and brave. I admire him greatly. You have no right to judge him and should repent your words written here and pray God forgives you your sin.
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Father Fred
Let me get this straight .... there are humans who take what is said on The View seriously?
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Martha Range
Father Fred ~ Apparently they do. I consider it a great sin to scoff and make fun of God on TV in front of millions of people. The punishment will match the deed. So unless Joy starts to pray and repents before her death, she will receive her reward.
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Bill Fox
When reading the New Testament, Jesus is talking to the reader. Often the reader is not listening. When reading the entire Bible, God is talking to the reader. Often the reader is not listening. God and Jesus speak to everyone equally. There are those like Vice President Pence who listen, and those like Joy Behar who will never hear.
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The Doctor
Sorry but you are terribly wrong on both accounts. God did not write the bible nor did jesus and it is not their words but the words of men who came generations after Jesus. Its at best historical fiction with some bits of what really happened being used as the seeds of lies. That is how the best deceptions always work.
Whatever Pence is hearing it is not a diety. Maybe a tumor or psychotic delusion but not a diety.
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Jim W.
What? You've fooled your mind into believing your views. Witnesses! 1000's of eye witnesses. There is no covering that up. We know the dates & methods of death for these disciples! Men who walked right next to him. When John baptised Jesus there were hundreds of mockers standing there when God himself spoke from Heaven declaring Christ his on!y son. They all heard it. You can say or think what you like, but you will never be more wrong. Shun eye witness accounts.? Just so you can think yourself wise? A whole village saw a dead man come to life cause Jesus told him too! Only a God can do that! And everyone standing there is a voice from the past saying "dude, your wrong. I was there! I saw it!! " and they weren't all Christians creating a hoax to trick you. Man is incapable of writing the Bible. They will never confess they're wrongs! They are their own Gods! Im a good man! I did this. I accomplished that.. They would not confess how many times Jesus had to tell them off? They would say i was a great disciple! Probably the best he had?! Ask those who were healed. Ask those who heard. Ask them who saw. No matter how you try you can never erase 1000's of eye witness accounts. Man could not predict what kingdom would bring down another kingdom? And when? Only God can. And God spoke it to a prophet. THEN a man wrote it down.
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Martha Range
T'Keren Valmaz ~ You did not read Bill's post correctly. He stated that when reading the Bible people are seeing the word, but many will not understand it. He did not say that GOD wrote the Bible. However, Jesus walked with the apostles and they wrote of their experiences with Jesus. This is fact, not fiction.
If you are determined to believe a lie it is not our fault, we both have given you the word. It is your decisions that determine your fate in the end. My conscience is clear.
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Jim W.
Wrong! Most were. Fool!
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John Matthews
If Mike Pence has a two way conversation with God, then we have a problem. When Christians say these things it opens them up for ridicule. Christian shaming at times is well deserved. Praying in schools, condemning other faiths, passing laws seeking to force Christianity on the general public are just a few of the events that invite and deserve shaming. Our country is great because there is a division between church and state. Keep the church out of my government and keep my government out of our churches.
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Martha Range
God DOES talk to an anointed few. It is NOT a mental illness.
How do you think the Biblical prophets got messages from God?
Oh.. you don't believe it happened? Since you aren't a Christian and have no faith, you will never know, will you?
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John Matthews
Martha, honey, God speaks to me every day - but doesn't say a word. Name the last prophet who had a conversation with God since Jesus Christ. You are a prime example of why Christian shaming is needed. You are narrow minded, stiff-necked and judgmental. Only Jesus can judge a person's heart. Shame, shame, shame on you.
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Martha Range
You have NO FAITH.. Sad!
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Rob
Sure Charles Christianity is just trying to force itself upon you. Christians go out and work40, 60, 80 hours per week but in our free time we seek to tell you what to do. When we’re not doing all that, we are putting on shows about how you should be gay and forcing the schools to talk about alternative lifestyles and how to put on condums to teenagers oh wait that’s these much more tolerant viewpoints my bad. Most churches I know of are supporting the soup kitchens or battered spouse shelters. Meanwhile, the more tolerant world views are sitting on their butts griping about Christianity. Gee wonder what that tells you
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Charles Jenkins
Christianity tries to force that lifestyle upon everyone. This country is diverse with many different faiths. This corrupt administration is using Christianity to work a backward and hateful agenda. Period
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Jim W.
No. Its just now bringing back Biblical Christianity. Everything has become all inclusive. Any and all religions do not lead to the same place. There is only 1 way. And they don't talk about that anymore. If we don't spread it, those people go to Hell. Didn't like that either. Did you? Doesn't matter what you believe. God set the rules. I'm just the messanger.
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The Doctor
I highly doubt youve ever read an unedited ancient copy of the old testament or the new. Your 1 way is most certainly not my way nor many others. The moment you try to say there is only one way you take the very notion of divinely gifted free will and say it is actually entrapment. because if there is only 1 right way free will is meaningless.
And it doesnt matter what you believe because what I know is that all existence is composed of energy at the sub atomic level. I know it is all held together by the unified particle field. I understand the concept of quantum entanglement and that the spooky physics of the nature of Light as both a particle and wave is at the core of how existence seems to be aware of it being perceived by living things.
Existence is aware I dont believe it I know it. Big difference between my spirituality and yours is mine isnt based on blind faith but scientific understanding, part of which is understanding that what I know will likely change as science improves.
To paraphrase the 13th apostle in Dogma. Its better to have ideas then beliefs. Ideas can change but people go crazy and hate people even kill people over their beliefs.
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Jim W.
I've delivered the message. What you do with it is now between you and your Creator.
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gwenn meltzer
Too many politicians, Pence for one .. TRUMP for another .. "PREY" on others with the Christian Faith .. quotes and knowing how naive these people are, THEY reach these poor people through the power of manipulation .. I know how wrong this is .. THEY should too ..
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gwenn meltzer
"THEY" actually know what They're doing .. Unethical practice of suggesting to people who are followers :(
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Bradley Friesen
Those claiming to be the most tolerant spout the most hate filled rhetoric. God is love and the light. None of us are without sin. No one is worthy of casting the first stone. Soften your hearts and follow him.
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Jim W.
That's incorrect. How can a man know his sin if its not pointed out to him? What Jesus meant was hypocrisy. Dont condemn someone who steals if you do it yourself. That's all. I need another Christian to correct me if i step out of line? Who else is going too? A sinner? You call sin what it is. Sin. Yes, were all sinners, but I dont steal no more, I dont cheat on my tax's? I've changed. Only a Christian can? And you gotta have those sins forgiven if your gonna get into heaven! I can deny some cause you felt them not worth mentioning to me?
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The Doctor
Because that is the entire point of self reflection which is a large part of what prayer and meditation is about Yusagi Jimbo. One who seeks enlightenment doesnt need more then his eyes, his heart, and his mind to see what is right and wrong and understand that being in the wrong leads to misery and strife for oneself and those around them.
Those that lack the ability to look into ones own actions and be critical of oneself are not humans, they are the very real monsters in the guise of humans.
When you see a boy kick his dog you know he is on the dark path and has embraced negative karma like a dominating mistress making him cry read mother goose while being sodomized with a hot poker.
We make that choice for ourselves at a very young age to love life or abuse it. No one is saved from it by reading a book or practicing archaic rituals involving crackers and wine.
No man who beat his family ever got into heaven no matter how often he confessed. I assure you of this cosmic truth.
I am without sin for I do know what I do. And I do not lie, steal,nor kill. I am thankful to all those who do hurt their karma by killing the animals and plants I eat poor ignorant sobs.
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Jim W.
What? No we don't. The boy kicked the dog caused it peed on the floor and got him yelled at. He dosent hate it. Best friends punch a friend in the face cause he's had too much to drink. A child dosent choose love as a path for life. They try to get away with everything they can. Many well intended life's have been ruined by drug addiction. Etc.? You mean to tell me a guy sits down at a bar, orders a beer and says " Today, I wanna.become an alcoholic !" No he dosent. Life happens. He didn't plan on his wife cheating and what that emotion would invoke in his heart.? That little buy loves animals but he's having a bad day?. Were all sinners. Always will be. Til death anyway.? Then the truth of the death of the Savior kicks in. Life eternal begins. I couldn't sin now if I wanted too. Thank you Jesus!
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William Waugh
Wow. I think I FINALLY have seen the light. Thank you Jim W. Christains don't grow up, out, and away from thier pasts (sins). They simply "give it to god" it's his problem now. No growth. No maturity. No understanding and comprehension. Just; I'm saved, by the blood of the lamb! Merry Xmas' Happy Easter and......let's go get ice cream! Ever wonder why other people may begin to see you as.a.troll? There is never a change in your mind. If you, the individual, Jim W. Has graduated to the positive energy flow that will carry us to the next reality; well......it's about time! Now grab a seat and watch all the others arriving with you riding a horse of a different colour. Wake up and smell the coffee!
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Dominic
Quite frankly, I think that if Christian are going to act shamefully, and they are, then they should be shamed. I left Christianity because of the rampant hypocrisy and hatred they demonstrate for other groups. When they learn the love of Christ and not the hatred of man, then maybe I will develop some respect for them, till then, I will call out the BS till they take a really good hard look at themselves and their behavior.
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john shephard
Judging by the comments here, buyng a ULC Minister card does not confer kindness, tolerance nor the objectivity necessary for intelligent discussion with others on the owner of the card. For starters, it is a given that no one can possibly know the relationship between God or Jesus and Mike Pence, anymore than they can know of your relationship with God or Jesus. Many "liberals" are skeptical of spirituality and some, like Joy Behar, appear to lack that basic understanding. In general, a spiritual repsonse to such ignorance and hate is to remember the words "Father forgive them. They know not what they do." Specifically each situation must be handled in manner most appropriate to that situation. Sometimes it will be appropriate to say something. Other times it will be appropriate to leave. If you can maintain your peace within, you will feel moved to do that which is most appropriate at the time. We can only inspire others out of their ignorance and hate by our example of being kind, tolerant, oblective and faithful to what we know to be true within ourselves. In effect, there is nothing to do but handle every task at hand lovingly.
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The Doctor
Your divine daddy is not mine and he has no business forgiving me for anything. The way you use the term liberals shows you to be a bigot and use it in a way to dehumanize those you feel are opposed to your views. Classic tools of war mongering nationalists too ignorant to understand that such egocentric views only lead to conflict they claim to wish to avoid.
People are not being skeptical they are outright saying eschewing logic for faith is willful self delusion. Faith is fine as long as it is tempered with reason and does not replace understanding. We are not primitive simple minds unaware of the reasons behind why the wind blows and eclipses. Using it as a guideline for what is acceptable social behavior is fine. Using it as a reason to throw brain power out with the baby and the bathwater is not.
Pence is all about ignorance and hate. He seethes with it and lust for cadet bone spurs ofcourse. I think his extreme homophobia is considered a common trait of those with serious repression issues of same sex orientation.
Pence just needs to bend bone spurs over the oval office desk and accept what he really is.
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Jim W.
T Keren. From your lips to his ears. Not forgiven. Bone spurs???
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Martha Range
T'Keren Valmaz ~ Wow! Rant much? Why do you hate Mike Pence? He hasn't hurt you personally has he? Is it just because he is a Christian that you hate him? What is it?
I have trouble grasping why you think it is acceptable to spew out your hatred like this. He's a good husband to his wife, including her in all things, and a good Christian. He treats everyone respectfully and fairly. I've never seen him hurl insults or hatred at anyone. Why this hatred for him then? Have you ever asked yourself that question?
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Martha Range
john shephard ~ I admire your response to T'Keren. It is very apropo. Thank you for putting it like that. God Bless you and protect you in these trying times.
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The Doctor
The sad fact is like any government( which is all any religion really is another way to govern people) they are prone to corruption by those in power who will inevitably become corrupted by said power. No matter the content of the holy text of a given faith it will be changed to suit the ideals and notions of those in charge, and redefined by those who are looking for excuses to justify their actions that others may question and challenge.
I think it does speak highly of Christianity as a concept that for 2000 years it spreads and is adopted by so many widely diverse cultures. I suspect its the simple core of the philosophy of Jesus the simple concepts like do unto others and the 7 sins to avoid are very appealing to all but the truly malicious in nature.
Yet like with all ideas it has spun wildly out of bounds of the original boundaries. We have seen it time and again with the Inquisition, with the crusades, with the carrot and stick teaching used on primitive tribal groups in the americas. And now so many factions ignoring the core tenants of peace and harmony and eschewing all desire to commit violence to all life even at the cost of you and yours still call themselves christian because they want to feel part of a global whole while being at best cancerous cells rotting a beautiful ideal into something aggressively offensive.
Let me put it simply if you would not be able to sit quietly and pray for those condemning you while choosing to not harm the lions you are not in fact christian. Not even close.
Now the old testament of the jews is very violent, bloody, full of stories of willfull sacrifice and mass murder. Many false christians seem to cling to that outdated aspect, One Jesus himself specifically decried and condemned and challenged Rabbinical scholars of his time about the primitive savage nature of.
And yes anyone who claims to actually have a divine line to the unknown powers that be is either a liar, a fool, or a madman. I suspect Pence is all 3 because 1 he is a politician(liar), looks long and ardently at cadet bone spurs drumpf, (Fool) and now admits to hearing a voice he thinks is god speaking to him( madman).
I do feel bad for the good hearted people that identify as christian, because the spokespeople for the public view of christians have been pissing in the global pool for so long the adults want the pool access limited to those old enough to know better then to piss in a pool.
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Donna Kowalczyk
First we are not responsible for the sins of the past. Second all religions basically follow the same Creed. Love each other as you want to be treated. Respect each other and their beliefs. There have been many great prophets since the beginning of time whose words have been defiled by man. If we all look into are hearts and follow God ,Universal Life Force or what ever you believe in the world would be a wonderful place.
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Clifford Oliver
Comes down to Love or Hate.. Light or Darkness
It’s our own dragons that many refuse to slay..
But instead ask forgiveness for not being the person they should be in the first place..
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Jim W.
Really?? Muslims are taught from childhood on to kill anyone not a Muslim? Love? Your misinformed and wrong. Man dosent believe in God! He thinks he's God! Only God can teach man to love. And they dont know God? So, love? Where? I agree its the answer, but its not gonna happen. A couples love last 4 years? That's not love. That's "good enough for now". A women brings a pervert into her home with 3 little girls..& defends it!! " But I love him!". Yea, love.
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Clifford Oliver
We are Gods.. And Goddesses..
Jesus is and was not the only son of God..
Why not try and be AS GOD? The best version of yourself that you can be?
We defeat darkness by spreading light..
Why not create that heaven everyone wants to get into, right here on Earth?
http://www.truthbeknown.com/sunsofgod.htm
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Reverand Steve
God speaks to my heart and I speak to Him through prayer. So is that to be interpreted as God speaking to you? I suppose it is.
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Martha Range
Steve ~ Yes, God speaks to people. Not all hear Him the same.
My experience was after many days, weeks, and months of prayer over an injured young man in a nursing home whose doctors and family had given up on his recovery. One day as I passed the nursing center on my way to work, I thought of him.
That was when God said to me, "I am going to heal that boy." I had faith that he would and thanked Him for the answer to my prayers.
Two days later I walked into the young man's room to find him on his feet, dressed and getting into a wheelchair. His family was there and he was going home. God had healed that 'boy", His word was true. I left without a word, but in my heart I was thinking God for his faithfulness.
No human being on this planet can say it didn't happen or that God doesn't talk to people, because He does.
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The Doctor
Uhm yeah no yourfaith did not heal him, nor did god. The human body is capable of amazing acts of self repair and a coma can help the body enter a state of hyper repair. As long as it is nourished and kept safe.
You miss Martha need some serious self reflection on reality and understand that your idea of god is full of hypocrisy. Why heal one boy while thousands of children starve, are abused, sold into slavery and prosituted? You cant have it both ways god can not be all loving and all powerful when the so called miracles are so few and the world so unfair.
Keep in mind that one of the requirements in the ancient hebrew prophecy of the messiah is that with his birth world peace shall come to pass. Its the fact no peace came that the rabbinical scholars then and now state Jesus was not the Christ.
Why so called christians cant get that fact through their heads is beyond me. No world peace in his life time means not the messiah.
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Pastor B Stevens
Jesus speaking to anyone that person needs serious mental help . As for a war on Christians ... that’s been going on for 2000 years . In modern times simple explanation proving biblical archaic stores rip apart their fantasy god . They spew hate , wage bloody wars then perk up and say Christianity is at war with the entire planet belief systems not their own . Wonder why American Christian churches remain empty .... well .... ?
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lifewalkblog
Theirs, dammit, Theirs.
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lifewalkblog
And, of course, I meant to type "their's" instead of "there's."
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lifewalkblog
There is not war on Christianity. There is, rightfully so, a war on right-wing fundamentalist evangelicals. AND, they brought it on themselves with their self-righteousness coupled with their blatant hypocrisy and double-standards. They've traded "following their convictions" for enforcing those convictions on what they wrongly perceive as a Christian nation. They long ago traded the ways of Jesus for political power. If, instead of the 10 Commandments, someone wanted quotes from the Quran posted in our courtrooms, the outcry would be deafening. They shout and shout religious freedom, but there's is the only religion to which they want that to apply. The word that sums it all up: Pharisee.
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Jim W.
Explain yourself? What self righteousness? What hypocrisy? What double standards? Defend it, dont just spew hatred? Say what you mean? True Christians could care less how you people destroy your world. Were not part of it. Were only on a stop over. And when Christ returns, we same Christians will judge you. So, we know what we should believe & teach. The light exposes the darkness. You don't like what your learning about yourself. That's all it is. And you won't obey morals! So you pretend there are none.
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The Doctor
Except sonny jimbo what your not taking into account is that holier than thou attitude of what we believe is the only way is exactly what incites animosity. And justifiably so.
If you say it as this is what I believe and feel to be right for me personally then Ill say ok cool do as you wish as long as it hurts no one nor brain wash children with fairy tales while claiming they are real.
If you say Your right Im wrong and am going to hell etc then you frankly deserve to be used as a prop for a recreation of crucifying an uppity loud mouth who doesnt know when to shut the hell up!
Keep your views as personal and acknowledge there are many others equally valid or be thrown to the lions mkay.
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The Doctor
Oh Jimmy, jimmy deans sausages. You in this very post give exactly the example you want. A real christian would never and could never care less. A true disciple of the man called Jesus would hold only love and compassion in their heart for all people, friend and foe alike. Nor treat this life as less then something amazing. Nor threaten with judgement or have you forgotten judge not lest ye be judged?
Id say you are in dire need of self reflection to try and seek the path leading to enlightenment but you clearly prefer the darkness of self imposed ignorance through bigotry while holding fear in your heart for those who do not agree with your views. This is evidenced in your comments saying things like all muslims are taught to kill from childhood. No they are not. Not any more so then all the big bad hunter types in the states that think using a high powered rifle to kill alpha examples of herds is some right of manhood.
Wolves prey upon the weak and the sick, Humans prey upon the strongest and hurt the entire species with each trophy animal taken.
Whatever your moral code is, I suspect it is very lacking in guidance by wisdom and compassion.
Oh and I do have the cosmic right to judge because I am a Libra so here is my judgement.
You are a self deluded egocentric bigot that only spreads the darkness of ignorance,hatred, and fear to all around you. I call upon the powers that be to entangle your energy with sewer rats until after many life times you come to some understanding of the Truth of existence,
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William Waugh
T'kerem......you sound quite the learned individual. I will learn from your posts. Science does rule. .......yes this is agreeing with your insight.
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The Doctor
Not sure if your being serious double W. Hard to tell sometimes on these forums. If so glad I could inspire some positive thinking. Without trying to boast yes I do study quite a wide variety of topics. I take my ordination and role as a minister to do my small part to spread enlightenment seriously.
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Jim W.
Jimmy dean sausages? Yea William. Very learned. Oh, and a Libra! Wow.
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Jim W.
There you go. I know you'd come to that. Self righteous people always do. Dont judge people for what your guilty of yourself. That's the standard. Otherwise you come across as hypocritical. How can anyone turn from their sin when they dont know they are a sinner? Will a snuffed out long ago conscience convict him? Man D its to nothing! And seeks more! Muslims are indeed taught to hate & kill the infadel. Maybe the American version watered it down? But the Christian world knows the truth. What? Those films of little 10 year old terrorist in training is just very good hollywood acting? And, Threaten with judgement? You mean warn in love? I dont hate anybody. Christ died for all of them. And by Gods grace, he may be my brother someday? I look forward to it. If however they refuse to take the only laid out path for Salvation of their souls, I will never see them again. So, brotherhood is kinda out of the picture? These are not my opinions T keren. This is the message I bring to you and any who will listen. Jesus Christ is the one & only escape plan from eternal Hell. Period.
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Jim W.
Man ADMITS to nothing. It should say.
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The Doctor
See there you go stating your racist views and your beliefs as hard facts and cosmic truths. You know why your above comments got deleted and mine do not ever get moderated? Because I think, and ponder how to convey what I want without stepping into the realm of derogatory rudeness.
There is no hell awaiting me, just another life, and another after that so on and so on in this infinite ever expanding universe.
The only person Jesus died for was himself. And its The Christ not Christ. Again use words right if your going to write at all.
As for knowing the Truth. No one knows that but the truly enlightened know there is an eternal mystery.
Oh and fun fact about my handle here. Valmaz is the name of the one and only lord of demon kind in some of the oldest myths of earth well predating the concept of the Devil.
So really do you think I care for one second about your babbling about hell? I mean really?
So keep your message to yourself that isnt want the ULC forums are for. We are part of a non denominational ministry here. We first and foremost must always keep in mind our chosen form of spirituality is ours alone. We may share our thoughts and views but not try to push them as the one true faith.
If you truly cant accept that and speak from a position of acceptance for other views then you really should stick to your local church community for a closed minded discussion.
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Clifford Oliver
Did Jesus not say Be as I AM?..
https://www.esv.org/resources/esv-global-study-bible/chart_43_08/
Blessings to all..
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Clifford Oliver
Thank you Robyn.. I had thought of making that correction as well.. Blessings dear sister..?
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Dreamsinger
Mrs. Behar is paid by ABC to express her views about the respective episode's topic of interest. She is a comedian, not a psychologist, so her concerns regarding Vice President Pence's mental health borders on practicing medicine without a valid license.
However, as "The View" is about opinions and not cold hard documented facts, Mrs. Behar is simply a co-host on a daytime tabloid gossip show.
Once a liar and hypocrite, always a Pharisee moneychanger.
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John Maher
DREAMSINGER PHARISEE and JUST WHAT are YOUR CREDENTIALs, RELATED to the DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP FAMILY ???
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Clifford Oliver
Thank you Tom.. And I wish you and yours the same.. ?
It’s a journey for sure.. ?
I feel mostly for those that get stuck along the way. And so ingrained in beliefs that they fail to get the greater message..
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Tom B
Clifford...thank you...we are here, and "stuck along the way", as you said, because we still have more karma to work out before reaching the "light"/ultimate, eternal peace...that is ok...things that we do that do not seem to proceed in that direction are products of ego, which is a construction, and not an aspect of God/Peace...i do not claim to know the reasons for our "leaving" the Peace; i feel like we will only know that when we are in it..but i do believe we should show love and peace to everyone, and realize nothing is ever done wrong; there are only some actions that seem to impede our progress toward God/Peace...i believe that is why Christ, and many others, urge us to forgive...all of the time...because we are all working to return to God/Peace, regardless of whether we realize it in each incarnation...Have a good day...Peace...Tom
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Jim W.
There it is again! Karma! I wish I got a quarter for every time that word was used?! OMG! 1 way! Jesus Christ. God said so not me. No wonder God says "Ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth." You people will fall for anything rather then accept the truth! Aliens, haunted houses, KARMA,?? horoscopes...anything! Wow. Your life is getting shorter every day. Find a Christian. Learn. Change. Hurry!
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Tom B
Jim...respectfully, if you choose demagogic religion over an understanding an acceptance of the fact that karma is a product of God/Peace, you will be stuck in a rut for additional lifetimes...i still wish you Peace...Tom
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The Doctor
God did not say anything. men writing words in books stated such things. Believe them if you wish but pushing that belief onto others is contrary to the ideals of the ULC and against the freedom of religion that is the founding stone of the law that lets you and all others be free to believe and worship as we may wish or not at all if that is our desire. you belong in another country if you feel your one way is the only right way.
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Robert Schuerch
What I find as odd is how Ms Behar neglected to point out that Oprah Winfrey was mentally ill when she said "God had not told her to run for President ".
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Tom B
Clifford...that is a good question, and in some ways it is the only question...this "world" is entered for us to work out our karma; it is like a laboratory, where everyone is working toward the light, which is eternal peace...money, religions, races, ethnicities, nationalities etc have no reality; the only reality is God/Peace...I wish you that reality...Tom
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Jim W.
Tom! Karma? Are you high? What fake God is that from? Allah? Buddha? Wang fung? Karma? Light & space & oh my gosh! 1 way! Gods rules. I didn't say it! I just warn people. Jesus died on the cross. His blood covers over your sin IF you believe? Believe? You get into heaven? Can't believe? Your doomed. Find a Christian friend & get the facts. Soon..
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Clifford Oliver
Jesus was a teacher, nothing more. If you truly listen to the teachings there is but one message..
There are truths in all religions. And many metaphors for the male and female ASPECTS..
Including Adam and Eve, Jesus and Mary, Isis and Osiris, Apollo and Venus etc..
When will humanity realize that this is the GARDEN..
And recognize their connection to it ALL..
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Dreamsinger
All land is sacred ground, too. Not just upon where an "obstentatious vessel" happens to be built. I like how Jesus was fine with being in the moment, the "Now". Even when things were going wrong he's like, "This too shall pass."
And the idea of not looking for an outside source of authority, but to look within your heart for the answers... your own will is what gives you faith, gives you strength.
Christianity isn't being attacked.
It's simply having a "come to Jesus" moment.
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Jim W.
Cliff!! (Add cuss word here.) Are you nuts? What "Teacher" do you know who raised the dead?! A whole village of eye witnesses saw it!! It wasn't a few goofy Christians trying to start a movement intent on fooling you! Dead? Alive! Only God can raise the dead! Fool! Get your head on straight. Soon!
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The Doctor
Jimmy Whacko you sure do seem to take words in an ancient book written by who knows who seriously. Id say that is very foolish.
Your idea of god is monotheistic which is fine but not the only form of faith and this is a place for all types of faith so stop acting like your idea is the only one that matters. If thats how you feel stay away and keep to your church and like minded bigots.
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Terri Davis
We should be making allies in people of peace. The fact that I disagree with Mike Pence theology presents an opportunity for me to share a theology of love instead of my personal beliefs. Beliefs are getting us nowhere. We should be welcoming to all and work for a just community. Not a community of condemnation, not justify racism of any kind and not be verbally or physically violent towards anyone.
Christian shaming happens because there is much racism and intolerence in the Christian community. We must heal within the Christian community so people can trust that we walk the way of peace and a belief all are welcome to the table.-
Clifford Oliver
Well said ..
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Jim W.
What? Beliefs are getting us to Heaven or not! True Christians need to be here! Loud mouthed & pushy. Your Hell is just around the bend! If we don't help you learn the truth you'll slip right in to the lake of fire! Tolerance? All roads lead to Heaven? No they dont! God is God. His rules! 1 way! Period. Stop messing around & voicing opinions. Get busy finding out how to save your souls?. You need Christians! Priest, monks, & false Gods can't help you. Only a Born again Christian can. No wonder God says "Ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth." You are your own God's. You love you. Its gonna go the way you say.. No its not!! Time is running out for you. You need a Christian. Find one. .Now!
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The Doctor
Was Jesus a loud mouthed pushy intolerant prick? Nope he only grew aggressive when confronted with intolerant arses.
Remember the story of the blind beggar denied entrance to a roman temple to pray to a roman god. Jesus saw the guard turn the man away and strike him. When Jesus confronted the guard the man said the temple was not for a filthy poor beggar.
So jesus struck the guard upon the brow and spoke the word blind, and took the sight from him, and then lead the beggar into the roman temple to a roman god.
Sure sounds like Jesus was anything but loud mouthed and pushy, and was in fact perfectly fine with a person praying to whatever god they wished to.
Time is not running out, Time does not even exist. Its a construct based upon our limited perception. We live in an infinite expanding universe. The light of the stars you see is older then any history written by man or the existence of man in many cases.
It comforts me greatly to know that if there is a hell as christians believe you are most assuredly bound for it.
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William J. Lewis
It appears as though all the comments here are about personal opinions of what Christianity is. They all talk about the "problems with Christianity, when the real problem is with folks that call themselves Christians. Christianity as a faith is fine, Christianity as practiced, not always so good. There seem to be a great number of people blaming the religion for the actions of the sinners within the religion. The major problems with the religion is no one seems to understand it anymore including those teaching it. As a religious scholar told me once: " I don't see any Christians left in America". That means he saw little evidence of Christianity here. Too much Hate, too much blame, too much passing the buck, and not practicing the faith.
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Rob
No you are very much wrong. While Love is needed, hell is very much a real place that is NOT on earth. Your false teachings may help to send others there. Be not deceived, brother, Hell is real and Jesus is the only answer.
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William J. Lewis
hi Rob, that's why people don't like Christianity, a self righteousness that condemns rather than lifts up. Jesus didn't do that. He lifted others up.
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Rob
Sure he lifted people up. Part of that was not condoning denial and beliefs that send you to hell. How can I lift you up when you’re on fire? Jesus also whipped and scourged the money changers in the temple because they were keeping people from God. If you’re gonna be on a Christian blog, know your doctrine!
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The Doctor
Uhm Rob this isnt a christian web site. Its a non denominational one. All beliefs are welcome here as long as you accept that what you believe is not the only way that is right.
And frankly you clearly do not know your own faiths history. Christianity is inherently flawed because for Jesus to of actually been the Messiah he would of needed to bring peace on earth in his own life time and unite all the world.
Did he accomplish these things? Nope hence why then and now rabbinical scholars, you know the ones that are experts in the ancient hebrew teachings and prophecies of their people do no recognize jesus as that messiah of their faith.
This is why any sane person sees christians as willfully ignorant.
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Clifford Oliver
Hell is a place on Earth, As is Heaven. For those that find it.
The entire concept comes from Egyptian beliefs.
Yes, all should be allowed their beliefs. However...
The problem is when those less conscious are in positions of commanding a ship of fools so to speak.
Love is the ONLY answer. Whatever the question. And Love needs no beliefs..
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Clifford Oliver
Agree with Maria that tolerance or allowance is a much needed virtue. As is just general kindness.
In essence there really isn’t much difference between Christianity and Wicca or Paganism. Constantine was a Pagan until converting on his death bed.
The problem primarily lies in Maternal Descent. The imbalance caused by descalating the sacred feminine or Goddess aspect.
We are all Expressions of God and Co Creators. Both Male and Female.
Though at many stages of consciousness.
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Concerned American
Anyone that watches the view and takes to heart all the negative things they say by condemning, making fun of or down right diagnosing people as crazy, stupid, ignorant, etc., because of their beliefs and what God may be doing in their lives, well they are "off their rockers"! Who gave The View critics the right to make judgements and infringe on other peoples rights and beliefs?
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William J. Lewis
Wow! there sure are a lot of people out there to hate, go get 'um.
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mariarosariorowan
One of the virtues that must be maintained is tolerance. It seems that these comments do not have much of it. I do not think of Pence as a politician or as an individual. I think this is not the right page to do it. However, I do believe that there are people who can hear voices and they are not from demons or madness. They are real voices that come from a world of love, where is God , beings of light and the spirits of those who have left earthly life. If that's being crazy, I'm a happy crazy (and very successful in life despite that madness).Only the one who lives love knows what love is. only the one who listens to the voices believes in them
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Carl Elfstrom
Mike Pence did a good job in Alabama, regardless of the voices. That could be the voice of Donald Trump he's hearing whispering to him in his sleep. I wouldn't put it passed him. The wisperer might have called himself Jesus Christ. I wouldn't put that passed him either.
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Carl Elfstrom
We must keep in mind that there are many good Christians in this world, of every denomination. We must not condn the majority for the actions of the minority. John Owens is just one evil, ignorant christian. Billy Abraham was just one man, who is now a don't in hell. We must keep things in proper perspective.
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Carl Elfstrom
Somebody changed some of the wording of my above comment,and it didn't come out sounding right, so I'm going to try it once more. It could have been discarnate entities, or John Owens having an out of body experience. We must keep in mind that there are many good Christians in this world, of every denomination. We must not condemn the majority for the actions of the minority. John Owens is just one evil, ignorant christian. Billy Graham was just one man, who is now a demon in shell. We must keep things in proper perspective.
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Jim W.
O.k. Satan. Make the call. Tell us why Billy Graham is now in hell? Not your opinion, facts! What ensured the fact that at death, he would be in hell. Enlighten us oh learned one? DEFENDER......
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The Doctor
He was the epitome of a close minded bigot and spread hate and fear. Jesus would of whupped his has blinded him and cast him from the cities of men to wander alone in a desert Ive not one bit of doubt.
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John Owens
I see you've adopted me as a raison d'etre like Maher. I would be flattered if I were gay. As it is, I feel sorry for you. Of course there is no way I can possibly know what is wrong with you or why you are the way you are, but I do pity you for being that way. I hope you can at least mature just a little bit.
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John Maher
JOHN BOOGER BUTTERFLY OWINS STOP LIVING in DENIAL be a GOOD CHRISTIAN and CONFESS what the PRIESTs TAUGHT you SEXUALLY, COME OUT of the CONFESSIONAL CLOSET !!!
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The Doctor
Why would you need to be gay to feel flattered? Oh thats right your homophobic so are trying to deflect that those who challenge you here on the forums are dandy fops while your a big bad tough guy type.
Typical of a corrupt badge wearing thug of the Blue Mafia.
I doubt you have any sense of pity nor think someone can mature considering you dont think change is ever possible and only brings instability and ruin.
Have fun in your stagnant swamp full of inbred back wood round eared hairless monkeys.
And dont worry to me your not special, Your are just another radical christian extremist polluting these boards. Your special to other rats like you maybe, but to me your just another bloated sewer rat feeding on the same shiite you spew.
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John Owens
Still living in that Islamic gay fantasy world, eh? Well, I still pity you. Maybe the impotence you are experiencing is only temporary.
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The Doctor
Owen you do grasp that Islamic culture is about as homophobic as it gets. Id think you would feel right at home in Saudi Arabia where living by archaic scriptures and setting aside common sense and human decency is the way of life.
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Kirk
Good Christians accept everybody, but there are bad apples in every bushel. I don’t know what Joy believes, but she seems evil since she rarely says anything positive.
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Allen
Kirk, LOL...LOL... I live in the Bible Belt in a highly Christian Community, 50% are the most hateful people I've ever met, the other 50% are friendly. I left Christianity because they only do Pagan practices, they do not follow any of the teachings of the Messiah. They don't even know what he taught. They only follow what Shaul wrote, and he opposes YHWH and the Messiah more than 30 times. This huge group of Christians all believe that they are in the will of God when they do what they do. Even when it's hateful and Evil. A good Christian??? Shalom Allen
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Jim W.
Allen, then you live among fake Christians. Church goers only. Gain heaven by good deeds phonies. Name it & claim its who believe God caters to our every whim because were super special! Born again changed to the core Christians do indeed accept all as equals. Because we know, that even on our best days, I can easily out sin YOU Allen. The difference is, it bothers me. And I strive to fix that every day. You just dont care? You just do. Changed lives is proof of a true believer. " You shall know them by their fruit." No fruit Allen? Phony.
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The Doctor
calling other christians fake coming from a raving radical like you reminds me alot of Islamist extremists calling peaceful sane reasonable muslims false,
Take a look in the mirror and try to grasp that holding your beliefs as paramount while deriding and condemning others is the epitome of egocentric behavior that has helped spawn countless conflicts through history,
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William Waugh
Wow! I didn't see a single post reinterating that hearing voices is psychotic. Go Pence Go.!
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Carl Elfstrom
I mentioned earlier something about schizophrenic audio hallucinations. Maybe he's experiencing electronic voice phenomena, like Melinda Gordon, and Jason and Grant used to do.
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Lea Weisenbach
Christians always claim the victim..But never ever realize how they demean and hurts others. Christians use their religion as a weapon. This is why I'm not a Christian anymore. Jesus was not a Christian. The Christians have become what Jesus had died for and now using his name in vain..
When will people realize that god has no religion. Religion has used their power to reason out why they can control and take peoples lives..I stand by Joy in her statement..She is very correct...I've seen the pain that the Christian belief as done to its people..I was one of them. This belief system makes people do things that I feel would not normally do just to fulfill a basic human need...Love..excepted for our true nature is..it enslaved peoples minds. And the sad thing is..People have surrendered the shoes to this and shame keeps then locked in...The loss of your family..The loss of friends..and the lose of oneself..Living in a state of fear..creates mental mental illness..I'm glad I left along time ago at the loss of my family..But I gained so much more..me..God just stands for..GOOD..ORDERLY..DIRECTION..and nothing more...I've gains faith in myself and hope for a better tomorrow. Christians that I know brie me as an Atheist..I'm not..but I guess it makes them feel good..I'm just a ungodly person...And I brie them as a very sad case...
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Jim W.
OMG! Where do I start? Christians ARE the victims! Ever heard of the Cross? Burned at the stake? Sawn in 2? Fed to the Lions? Blamed for the burning of Rome. Stoned to death?. Duh! CLAIM to be victims? Christians are followers of Jesus Christ. So yea, unless Jesus was chasing his own tail, he was probably not a Christian I wouldn't think? How has God tried to run your life Lea? His contribution to it was the BREATH OF LIFE and a conscience. Which you have obviously squashed. What remains is the freedom of choice? Which you have used to mock him & criticize his followers. Great use of your gifts! Now go away. Enjoy what life you & your kind have created of this" its all about love" world cause your eternity will be painful & hopeless. Sorry. I strongly suggest you take another look? God is trying to give you life Lea? Not take it.
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The Doctor
Hey Jimmy you do understand that what you believe is inherently flawed. For Jesus to of been the messiah world peace would have to of come to pass with his birth and lasted for all time there after right.
That is a major part of the prophecy of the messiah.
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jim
Christians are now experiencing blow back from the people because of their long run of judgmentalism. When people push back against Christians , the Christians yell 'persecution'.
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Carl Elfstrom
Amen, Brother!
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John A Anderson, CD, CIF Mons ON
I don't have a copy of the meme, but I've grown to like the saying: Religion is like a penis. It's perfectly alright to have one, and to be happy about that fact, but if you wave it in my face, or force it down a child's throat, I'll cut it off faster than you can blink.
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Carl Elfstrom
Very good,John. Now let's round up those pedophile priests.
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Frank Villari
There is no "shaming" Christians, unless they're CINO. People that shame simply sound and portray themselves as ignorant. Joy Behar constantly proves this point, as do most of the League of the Perpetually Offended.
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Clifford Oliver
Kindness and the Golden rule aren’t exclusive to any religion. Nor are morals such as honor and respect.
We are all spiritual beings having a human experience. Not the other way around.
Universal Physical and Spiritual Laws should apply for all of humanity.
Balance is the key..
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Carl Elfstrom
Once again I must ad that what goes around comes around, and he spewed out hatred for ninety five years! Protection Magick isn't the same kind of thing as black magick, and us Wiccans are not the ones who turn the other cheek. He'll only get the words of power he deserves (like numb - nuts John Owens). And as I so Will so mote it be. Blessed Be!
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John Owens
You are just full of it, Carl.
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John Maher
JOHN BOOGER BUTTERFLY OWINS, WHO CRAPPED on YOUR WAFFLES DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP ???
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Jim W.
John, his name is now fool. This fool has said in his heart there is no God. God calls that a fool? So, we can too. DEFENDER OF THE FAITH
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The Doctor
One with true faith does not need to be defended. Nor does any god. And as always JW this is a site for those people of any and all faiths and spiritual views you seem to not understand your attitude and egocentric close minded bigoted views have no place here.
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Carl Elfstrom
We shouldn't respect the disrespectful, or honor those who have trampled us under their feet. We should always do unto others as we would have them do unto us, until they do unto us as we would not do unto them, then we must do unto them in a similar way, to achieve balance. And that is truly spiritual, regardless of what St. John Owens thinks about it, in his self - righteous, ignorant christian way.
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Carl Elfstrom
And by the way, I was initiated into Wicca by the Goddess on January 1, 1980 when I was sixteen, after my year and a day of training, so there's a good chance that I know what I'm talking about in relation to Wiccan spirituality. Although there will always be more to learn along the well - worn path, I never share about anything I'm not sure of,yet.
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William J. Lewis
Carl, sorry that just doesn't fit any major religion or philosophy I have ever heard of. You may want to publish that in a peer reviewed publication to make sure that you are correct in that thought. It appears a bit self righteous actually.
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Jim W.
Exactly! That is why you will recieve no respect here Satan's puppet. You are a fool. DEFENDER
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Mike L
When the research is done, one will find that the first written record of the golden rule was left by the Chinese philosopher, Kong Qui. And, since "there is nothing new under the sun" it can be logically concluded he borrowed it from some one else.
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Clifford Oliver
Exactly.. Nothing new under the Sun..
And if one knows the physics of the Universe, it is based largely on the Golden Mean..
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Alicia
Everyone is entitled to their beliefs, however, they are NOT entitled to tell anyone else that THEIR beliefs are "wrong". I see it all the time on Facebook...Christians CONSTANTLY post religious material. "Share if you aren't ashamed to love Jesus"..."Type Amen if you believe Jesus needs to be taught in schools"...Personally, I'm tired of it. You don't see this kind of thing from any other religious group. THIS is what people have against Christians. It has nothing to do with what they believe, but how they act.
I have a born-again Christian cousin. Years ago, she and her husband hosted a New Year's Day family gathering. Our uncle, who was 80 at the time, asked me to drive him because he was shaky driving at night. I agreed and he told the cousin that I would drive him. I got a call from her husband and was told that I was not welcome in their home. Why? I'm Pagan. I wear a small pentacle necklace at all times (just as they wear their crosses) and he told me that as long as I have "that sign of the devil" on, I am to stay away. It was never said that I would be at this gathering....just that I would be driving my uncle. This is a person who "created" his own kind of Karate that honored Jesus instead of the old gods...before every class, he would have his "students" pray. He completely ignored the origins.
So, there is no "war on Christianity"....the "war" is on hypocrisy and the inability to realize that they need to respect others as THEY want to be respected.
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Carl Elfstrom
Alicia, I'm Pagan of the Wiccan variety, a natural eclectic solitary, and you may also know me as Raven Apollo. Blessed be your feet that have carried you here, and all the way up. I'm sure you know the rest. A few weeks ago I received an invitation in the mail to attend my second cousin Father Dominic Pistons Jr.'s fortieth anniversary of being a Roman Catholic priest. By the way, he's the cousin who calls everyone "Dear". My mother's family is Catholic, my father's family is both Catholic and Lutheran, my stepfather's family is Disciples Of Christ, and I'm a pagan Witch who includes Jesus my pantheon of gods, but am not a christian. I was also a student of Buddhism, and practice Buddhist meditation. I'm apparently not in the broom closet and my relatives know I'm Wiccan. Still, I get the impression that if I attend that event I'm going to be expected to act like a Catholic, especially in front of the bishops, archbishops, and cardinals who are supposed to be there. However, I got expelled from two Catholic elementary schools, and they should know by now that I don't play those games. I'd probably stick out my tongue at them, and ask them if they're going to give us a dragshow in those pretty dresses they're wearing, on that stage they call an altar. I might actually do that. It sounds like fun, does'nt it. I'm been trying to get barred from family functions for years. Maybe they'll finally quit sending me invitations. .
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Carl Elfstrom
I'm glad I got away from that article about Billy Graham. That was really pissing me off. Personally, I never liked that man at all, and found myself trying to upset and antagonize his supporters. I'm glad I finally realized it and stopped myself. I'm too embarrassed to go back and read some of my comments on that page. I wish the ULC would delete them for me.
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Carl Elfstrom
Now that I'm well fed and well rested, and no longer have the same kind of buzz, I think I'll get back to that article about that hell - bound closet queen that some moron had the audacity to call "America's Minister."There's at least a few more things I want to say about Billy boy, while the ULC seems eager to post my masterful comments.
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Carl Elfstrom
Alicia, you're tempting me to get on Facebook and leave a message that states something like " Share, if you aren't ashamed to hate Jesus, and think his twelve merry men were sexy." Don't put it past me. That will give those shameless morons something to pray about.
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The Doctor
Hey Carl its cool, Jesus was sexy in those pimpin robes rolling with a hotty ho like Mary M and backed by a posse of loco hombres.
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Carl Elfstrom
And don't forget the Holy words of Twisted Sister "Wer'e not gonna take it anymore!"
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William Waugh
Carl, you and John Owens are currently my top heroes. Forward!
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Carl Elfstrom
William, don't you mean your top entertainment? Trust me, it's going to get a lot better. St. John doesn't have a clue about what's in store for him. So sit back, relax, smoke a soon to be legal joint, and stay tuned.
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Jim W.
What's in store? You gonna rob one? Go on a shooting spree? Go to jail for selling weed? What's up fool? Smile puppet. God loves you & so do I. Keep your thoughts to yourself, your mouth shut, and go have a great day bud! Tut..tut..tut..Dont swear? I wont read 1 more word if you do? All your smart Aleck remarks are wasted. Use your brain, not your mouth? DEFENDER.........
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William Waugh
I think Jim W. Is a troll.
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The Doctor
No double W Jimmy Whacko is a radical false christian extremist who would be in kindred spiritual company with the looney tunes that flew a plane into a tower. Or with the vile men in a town square yelling white power. I also suspect he likes to glower.
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Carl Elfstrom
Using the word God in the US Constitution has nothing to do with Christianity. God is not a christian word, but a universal term used to indicate the central deity of many religions and spiritual paths. Some of our founding fathers weren't Christians, and only Christians mistakenly believe that the United States has ever been a christian country. Read it and weep you ignorant christians!
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Carl Elfstrom
Thankyou ULC for deleting a word I quickly realized I should not have used.
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Clifford Oliver
What’s needed is Omnism and a move towards Universal Laws. Which exist beyond beliefs..
The Constiitution while a champion of human rights, doesn’t go far enough. Because it still places us under a Christian God belief.
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Carl Elfstrom
I don't mind Christians as long as they don't act like Christians in public. Some people view that as very offensive behavior. Only Christians think they are right. And there aren't nearly as many as they think there are and would have us believe. The prolific ones are nothing but cry babies who pout when they don't get their way. God talks to me through intuition. Maybe that's what Mike Pence meant but distorted it in his mind through his goofy christian beliefs which made him sound schizophrenic, in having audio hallucinations.
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Carl Elfstrom
Clifford, it sounds like you may have read the Kybalion, but don't expect simple minded Christians to comprehend what you're saying. The only laws they know about are contained in the bible.
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James Pace
Sorry, I feel that mainstream Christianity is inherently oppressive, and openly hostile to anything outside of its very narrow view..
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Carl Elfstrom
Amen, Brother James Pace! Let's verbally crucify those evil, prolific christians.
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Jim W.
Carl, Carl, Carl...Crucify us with words? The fool says in his heart there is no God. So, son of Satan. From now on, between you & I, that will be your name. Fool. I've read your post. Laughed at your ego & pride. Your self exaltation. You've become what you claim to hate Christians for. Thinking your right? That only you are right? Fool. You are nothing but Satan's puppet. And you don't even feel him pulling the strings? You think its all you! I'm great! I'm mouthy! I know all! You are mere dust that won't take your 1st breath in the morning if the God you mock decides to shut that trap? Fool. Get used to it. Because it will be what you become known as here. So, open mouth, insert foot. Fool. What else have you to say? Entertain us puppet? Be cause if you tick off your Master & Creator, in the words of Judas your priest "Some heads are gonna roll !!" Signed, DEFENDER OF THE FAITH!
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The Doctor
Yeah Jim jim jeree the only fool here I see is thee. You speak as a radical with hate in your heart. Long ago I suspect your soul did depart. It fled away and no matter how you may pray It is gone, and in the end in hell you must stay.
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Carl Elfstrom
James Pace, it's nothing to feel sorry about. Hold your head up high and feel proud that you've broken through to the other side.
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Jim W.
Silence fool!
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The Doctor
Jimmy Dean Sausages do try and take your own advice, as you are among the great fools of this forum right up there with the one you mock as brother and peer.
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James
Wow, just wow! The church that does the most charitable deeds world wide being picked apart because of the human imperfections of its followers! Not its doctrine, or even its founding diety, but the followers actions/words. By the nation it helped build..... What a a bunch of hypocritical crap. What happened to good judgement and self control? Is that too extreme or just plumb crazy these days? It might be time that the whole Christian faith comes together and shows its face. The face of power. Not through action against its enemy but inaction. Stop buying or saling anything from anyone that stands against our faith. See how fast their foundations crumble to dust and they come bidding for help.
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Wendy
Charitable deeds...with strings attached much of the time. "We'll help you if you believe what we believe." Or, "We'll help you, but only if you live your life the way we tell you to live it."
Fundamentalist Christianity is weirdly militant, and Christianity as a whole has always been a religion of poaching believers from other religions. Nobody likes poachers.
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Carl Elfstrom
I don't mind saying I'm christian and praising the lord for a box of free groceries, or attending a revival where they've got free food. I might even preach a christian sermon and save some souls while there, but then must eat and run.I don't care if I end this life with a little karmic debt. That will just give me something to work on in my next life.
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Jim W.
So Wendy, your one of those people who pass by a homeless person because in your opinion, they'll use it on booze? Arent you.? Its not possible they really are hungry.? No. They can't be if you don't think so..can they? Christians give because were inspired to do so. Asking you to Thank God for it is something I do with every meal. Some Cow, some Pig, gave its life so I could live on. That means a lot to me. And I resent me you saying we tell you how to live. No one can tell you how to live? Many so called Christians won't live the way they should? We preach because we know what's in store for you if we don't? And were trying to help you avoid Hell! Its Gods rules. He tells us there is only 1 way out. Were passing on the secret!. Its as simple as that? This is no manmade trick to draw in numbers? Its what's coming! Weither you believe it or not? You deserve the chance to examine that for yourself? And I am not (like your kind) the type to just walk past you, when I have this sandwich in my hands? You have been told. Its on you now?
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The Doctor
There is no one way that is right. It is the destination of enlightenment that matters not the specific faith. To speak in absolutes when you know only hear say and false hoods written by mere men seeking mastery over others is to lose all the paths and wander alone in darkness for all time to come.
I alone know the truth. I alone can guide you out of the darkness you created for your self by believing in falsehoods. Your words strip you for any chance and blind yourself from the ability to examine yourself in reflection.
You are lost to the light Jim W know that know peace awaits you when you let yourself become the speaker of lies. Cut out your tongue, and shatter your hands with stone so that you might free yourself of such temptations and live a pure life in atonement of your transgressions against your brothers and sisters of this universe.
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Carl Elfstrom
James, God didn't start any religion, they were all man made. You were also named after a dumb - ass christian saint, like John Owens. Has that gone to your head, too. Christians can't retaliate and throw stones (literally or figuratively) without going against christian principles, until they misinterpret them like you apparently have, to get your sniveling, crybaby way. But just remember, for every rock y'all throw, we'll be throwing back boulders.
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Carl Elfstrom
Yeah saintly James, what happened to good judgement and self - control? Why don't you practice what you preach? Oh that's right, christians only know how to preach. They don't follow anything, not even their own advice, until they've distorted it to the extent that it doesn't reflect their own actions.
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Minister Carey
James prior to becoming a Christian did you research the history of the religion you chose? Christianity began in Ethiopia, but when established in Rome Christianity operated differently. Rome developed its own version of the “scriptures”, developed their own covenant, and created something called the Crusades to ensue its version was spread around the known world. And by force where necessary. Was that charitable? Should you research the Doctrine of Discovery you may find that the Roman Pope gave Christof Columbus permission to kill or enslave any non-Christians, heathens, or those resisting their form of religion in the Americas. That is what Columbus discovered- a thriving people who had no concept of a blond, blue-eyed Jesus. The indigenous Americans had their own spiritual systems and were killed or enslaved for it. Those were my ancestors. AND THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH assisted in using the enslaved indigenous Americans (along with others) to build a wealthy Economy for them. And “the Church” sent European riff-raff, indentured servants/slaves to the Americas to help murder, enslave, and steal the land via the concept of divide and conquer. The “charitable deeds” are to allow the remnant of slave descendants in America to live and eek out some type existence while many are still dealing with the post-traumatic slave syndrome and racial disparities. For SHAME. I see no seminary pastors, bishops, church ministers trying to help these people, yet keep them immersed into a religion calling on a false God. Take the land, give them our “bible” and a heaven where they will receive their just rewards. Meaning - you will die before you get true justice here on this earth. And we will burn midnight oil to ensure you dark-skinned people are hated and disrespected around the world. But we will hold up on a few of you because we love your organs and need some melanin for our prescriptions. Wow, oh wow James!
Note: this is not said to incite guilt or anger among the pale-face people. All Europeans who came to exploit during that time (and now) were not “white/pale-faced”. You would know this if you researched the true history. Evil shows up in many faces and colors. Yes, I become perturbed when saintly and the highest of the high honors are bestowed on Christianity, The Church.
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Jim W.
Minister? Carey, Where do you get this stuff? Read secular books on opinions of men to derive truth? The Jews endured more problems then you could ever imagine simply because they denied the 1 true God. He dosent force himself on us. He created us with a free will. He didn't have too? He wants true, heart felt worship. The Bible declares that a supreme being created the heavens & the earth. They nor most of the world accept that truth & chose Evolution. Once they take that to heart, believe it, and live by it, God blinds their eyes to the truth. They will fall for or believe anything after that. They made a choice. Adam & Eve sinned & from now on all flesh will suffer death. UNLESS.. Enter Christianity. Here are my laws. You may live again, even after death, IF...Then comes the rest of the Bible. A Savior. Only 1 way out. Believe it & live.? I'm a witness to this Gods truth. And there are 1000's of others. Many are in Hell right now. They saw the lame walk, the blind see, & the dead rise again!! Eye witnesses! So who cares what you think? A blind man with a self centered opinion on how life is or should be. To think you know better or deserve better tells me who you believe God is? YOU. Religion means nothing. Church attendance counts for nothing. There's only 1 way out! You need a Savior. And there is only 1 name given under Heaven by which you can & must be saved. Jesus Christ! Period! Its the only ransom Gods gonna accept on judgement day. A whole village saw a dead man rise! That's God saying I can raise you too!! But they, nor you, will believe it. You can't. Your mind is blinded. You are lost. You chose your own fate. God of your own choosing. Jesus mentioned Hell more then he did Heaven! The lake of fire! Its not gonna be a bunch of sinners drinking & exchanging sexual favors. You will be alone. In total darkness. Ablaze but never consumed. Never! For all eternity. Forever! Non ending. That's why Christians are such pest. They're trying to SAVE you from that fate! You wanna ignore us? Ridicule & insult us? Have at it. Were only trying to help. And, we've been commanded to do so. God offers even the blind, self centered, & unschooled 1 more chance through us. No True Christian thinks he's better then you. He knows he's worse. He lives with his guilt every day. At Salvation a Christian receives a piece of God. The Holy Spirit. He comes to dwell in your heart. Change begins. But the old nature remains. I still & always will sin. (Til death) But God (via this Holy Spirit) does speak. Dont do this. Dont touch that. Dont think that. Dont take that, etc...But I still do. I apologize & go on. Not get away with, forgiven for. Day after day, guilt upon guilt, until I'm called home. Then the old nature dies, & I become who I should be. Forever. You cannot now, after choosing your life's path, pick up a Bible and understand it You won't believe any of what you hear here? You can't. But, your not dead yet. If you can wrap your mind around the witnesses. 1000's of witnesses! (And not many were Christians trying to pull off a hoax.) t must all be true? Maybe God will take the scales from your eyes and let you see the truth? If your minds open to it, Open a Bible to and read Romans 1. And this falsehood about a loving God wouldn't think of sending a person to Hell,?? oh yes he would.! Dont forget, there are laws & expectations... When he led Isreal into the promised land to take possession of their. new home, he ordered them to kill & destroy every living thing. Including women & children. You think he let them into Heaven? He's God. He does what he chooses. Including blocking you out for your unbelief? You may all now return to your religiosity.
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The Doctor
Lets see ranting, raving, incapable of writing coherently. This post right here makes me really shake my head in sorrow for those subject to this mans company in day to day life. Especially any children he may have.
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The Doctor
btw I am referring to Jimmer the smeg head.
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Jim
Gotta say Minister Carey you like your definition and for the most part you are right about the history but why don't you also share the history of what the indigenous Americans did to each other. They enslaved other tribes. They were constantly at war with each other so I guess we are all with a history.
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Jeff Smith
My take on this is the christians that are getting shamed are the ones that are trying to use their personal "christian" beliefs as a weapon of oppression. I many times on my main social media site have personally called into question claims made by so called "christians" that for the life of me doing personal and in some cases extensive research into and through my bibles, i have access to three versions, and have not been able to find what they are claiming.
My fav way to handle them is to book chapter and verse people on my side and ask to be book chapter and versed.
I should point out that EVERYTIME i have asked to be book chapter and versed, i have never had ANYONE be able to do so. Sadly because when i do ask for it, i know for a FACT there is NOTHING in the Bible they can use, like i said, i have done my research.
So i would say, if these "christians" do not want to be "attacked" or shamed or persecuted, they need to stop using their pretty much unbacked up personal beliefs as a weapon.
After all, US First amendment grants freedom of religion, any religion, but it also grant freedom from religion, and on top of that we are a nation of LAWS. If you tell one group they can ignore whatever law, you pretty much have to tell EVERYONE that they can pick and choose which laws to follow as long as they claim religious belief as to why.
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Carl Elfstrom
There are much better books to read than the bible ( take Mother Goose nursery rhymes for example). I wouldn't waste my time.
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Tom B
Joseph...i agree with both your statements in "Finding a Balance"...i do feel, however, that if someone wants to attribute his or her success at something to Jesus, Yoda or anyone else, so what?...just do not pontificate...Tom
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Carl Elfstrom
I'd make a hell of a lot better pope than the one they've got. We'd have wild orgies in the Vatican every night, and roll joints with the pages of the bible. So pick me for your next pope, you pack of totally unethical, heathen cardinals, and I'll truly rock the house!
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John Owens
They most likely DO have wild orgies, Carl. Those people are Satan's disciples.
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Carl Elfstrom
You're probably right, John. I usually think you are, even when it hurts.
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Carl Elfstrom
Satan is one of those super natural beings created in christian mythology,and only exists in the demented imaginations of christians. They like to think about him doing bad things, so they can justify their fantasies, and self - deprication of experiencing what it means to be truly and fully human. For example, they have been known to say things like "It wasn't me, the devil made me do it. Or, Satan is tempting me, but I'm fighting against him. Then, if Satan wins and they do something bad anyway they simply say they're sorry to Jesus, and he supposedly forgives them, so they don't have any karmic debt,and can keep sinning and saying they're sorry, and never suffer any consequences for their actions, because it was Satan's fault. "Fairytàles, can come true, they can happen to you, if you're young at heart. That song speaks of the naivity of children. Like having the blind faith of children. It just means they're stupid. And it really hurts, St, John Owens. I mean my my insides are sore from laughing at you.
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John Owens
Thanks for that, Carl. I just wish my being correct didn't hurt others' feelings so much.
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Michael Lisi
I wouldn't be surprised if you were the victim of brutality every time you left your house Carl. You have got the attitude of an adolescent who likes to hear himself talk bc nobody else will give you the time of day.
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The Doctor
To speak ill of others from a place of contempt is to find oneself forever held in contempt of the Divine. To name another the disciple of the First among angels is to bind oneself to the path of the fallen for all time to come.
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Dan Atatakai
Christianity is not all that getting criticized or condemned as much as many other theological perspectives. Look at how much the Islamic faith is lambasted by these "good Christians" who want to claim that Allah of Islam is NOT the God of Abraham, when it is. Look at how many people who are claiming to be Christian and demanding that all Muslims must leave the US because "the U.S. is a Christian country" when it really isn't.
Please remember that the largest populous religion is Christianity, so no, it is not really being "picked on" as much as Atheists, Jews and Muslims.
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John Maher
TELL MIKE six PENCE to CRY in DOTAR ORANGUtRUMPs MOTHERs MILK, SHEs STILL ALIVE and WELL in BORNEO !!!
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flugo
john: What a childish, inane, crock of gibberish! This forum is meant to exhibit rational, objective comments and mature opinions. Pull your thumb out!
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Carl Elfstrom
Bob, another form of jibberish is called talking in tongues. Some of those charismatic fools even do it in public. How can normal, decent people not laugh at christians when they see them acting like that, or quoting scripture in public, and telling people they have to know Jesus to keep from burning in a pit of fire for eternity. Those are such childish notion s and behaviors. I don't think Christianity is put down nearly as much as it ought to be. We ought to be doing our best at saving people from christianity.
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Milton
I didn't get the impression that bob was taking a counter position to john's insane comment. I think he was merely pointing out it wasn't useful. I have yet to see bob's position on the article.
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Rob
Gee Carl You’re on a Christian website basically saying that Christianity is nonsense. The epitome of selfishness and child like behavior. You’ll realize there is a hell when you bust it wide open
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William J. Lewis
I see by the comments here you certainly have all the answers to the worlds problems, however with the amount of comment and veracity displayed in those comments, It appears stunningly evident who the most self righteous individual here is.
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Robyn J.
To Rob, Sorry Rob but this is NOT a Christian Website. This is a UNIVERSAL WEB SITE. I know you just made a mistake in that. We can talk about all religions here.
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flugo
Gilbert: Bob's position is Biblical. God spoke to numerous individuals in the past. God is the same as He always was, hence if the conditions are appropriate He can speak to mankind in thelpresent.
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Steven P Robinson
@Rob A reminder from the ULC home page: "The ULC is open to people of all faiths, offering everyone the religious freedom to become an ordained minister and practice your beliefs."
I have not been a Christian since 1975, have followed a modern reconstruction of the beliefs/practices of my pre-Christian ancestors since 1988, found a welcome here at the ULC in 1998.
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Rev paul
As for Jesus speaking to Mike pence who knows probly mental illness in his part
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Dragon Priest
Rev it is possible to talk to jesus, but I doubt Pence does that. Mental health does not even play into it, a connection to the divine does. Most have no clue or even if it can be done and it is not prayer because he does answer back. Politicians that claim . Such religiosity are mostly fake. BTW jesus is not God, he never said he was.
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Jim W.
Pablo, Yes he did. Jesus said I & the Father are 1. & if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. He said it many times in many scriptures. And since God cannot lie, Jesus indeed is God.
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John Owens
Correct, Jim. In fact, it was JESUS who created the Cosmos. John 1, Hebrews 1.
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Jim
Well said.
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James Jr Taylor
I agree with you Jim W. Where you said that Jesus said "i & the Father are 1. If you have seen me, you have seen the Father. My question also today the readers, who question what God can or cannot do is this. Was it that Moses was insane when it is written that GOD told him to go and tell the king to let my people go? Was it the insanity of Noah, when GOD told him to build build a boat and bring all the creatures in by two's, one male and one female?
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Alicia
John Maher....Thank you for showing us all how childish and hateful you are. Even the format of your post tells us that you're not a mature individual.
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John Owens
"...others might seek to weaponize their faith in order to impede progress or promote intolerance." That is a totally unfair statement on its face. I suppose it all depends on how you define "tolerating" something or someone. I define it as not bothering them as long as they don't bother me. I'm pretty sure that is an accurate definition. I'm also pretty sure that Christians are "tolerating" everyone else who isn't a Christian because the streets are not red with blood. Many times I have heard and read hysterical propaganda regarding right-wing Christians but just have not seen any justification for any of that. Just a few years ago, the left wing was saying if people had a bible in their car, the police should consider them suspect as radical right-wingers.
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John Owens
I also don't think Martin Castro was around during the so-called Jim Crow era so I don't know how he decided religion was used to justify anything regarding that. He is trying to play the race card where it doesn't even have any place in the discussion. Christianity has played a much larger role in ending discrimination than anything else has. If people did not have a conscience, they certainly would not care about anyone else's suffering.
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Robyn J.
Interesting view. I can't figure out why it is that people have a tendency to blanket their venom on one certain segment of people. The right wing so called Christians, do not represent the vast majority of people who consider themselves Christians happen to want to do the right thing but as usual it's always a small group that wants to make it bad for everyone else. Those people are the ones I am about. Most of them don't care about history or are gullible enough to believe just about anything. That's been around for centuries. It's called the Human condition.
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Robyn J.
correction- meant to say "Those people are the ones I am talking about."
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Clifford Oliver
John do you really believe everything in that book at face value? The Bible is mostly metaphors. And written by men, not Jesus himself. Who may be just a metaphor. The story of Horus is very similar and older than the Bible.
Those of us that know the actual physics of the Universe, know that it follows certain Universal laws. Based much on the Golden Mean.
There are many beliefs of just who God is, and have been since the beginning of time.
In the beginning was the word, and it can be interpreted in many different ways.
But truth is self evident, and touches the soul..
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Jim W.
Cliff. So wrong my friend. The Bible written by men? Not true. The Bible is full of mistake makers & law breakers. Man would never admit to such things! They would enhance their goodness. Not confess for all the world to see. And most Christians died for their beliefs. You would skip out the 1st chance you got! Written by men? Impossible! Every scientist set out to disprove the Bib!e. Became a believer. And the evidence is in changed lives. Men dont change? They think I'm just fine. Ask them if they think they'll go to Heaven? The answer will be yes! IF They were writing the book.
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Rev. Fulton L. Arrington
"Christianity" was used to promote racist policies, that's just basic history. In fact, some theologians during the colonial era justified the slaughter of Native Americans by saying that since they were not mentioned in the Bible, they were not truly Human. Hows that for "weaponizing faith"?
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John Owens
People also use Christianity to promote tolerance and kindness. HOW'S THAT FOR WEAPONIZING FAITH?
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The Doctor
Sure it is owen, like how the missionaries offer to kindly feed the local tribal peoples after slaughtering their tribes, and raping the land as long as they accept what the bible says as truth.
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Carl Elfstrom
Christians never find fault with anything they say or do. They are totally self-righteous, which is another good reason for putting them down. Then they wonder why they're snitched on by good people like St. Judas, and are later crucified. Talk about blood in the street. Wait 'til you see how many more christians get crucified in the near future.
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John Owens
Carl, who pissed in your cheerios? You come across as very smug and self-righteous even as you brag about what a sinner you are.
Does anyone really see anything wrong with things they say or do? NO. Everyone is righteous or justified in their own eyes.
You seem to revel in blasphemy. Of course that is your right, but the whole universe works toward balance, and so something akin to karma will level YOU out at sometime. What goes around, and all that.
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Carl Elfstrom
I concede john, you're right again. I guess I was in a bad mood. That happens when I let myself get too hungry, angry, lonely, or tired, the initials of which spell H.A.L.T..
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Carl Elfstrom
You're probably always right, aren't you John?
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Carl Elfstrom
Of course, you were named after a christian saint. They probably had a premonition that you were going to become one too. And you probably will, a few hundred years after you're dead. All hail St. John Owens!
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Rob
Carl wait to you discover you can’t get fire insurance in hell
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Alan
You are assuming there IS a "hell"...
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Robyn J.
It is a good thing when you can admit you were not entirely correct in something you said. Good for you. Keep growing.
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Jim W.
Wrong. I find I do a lot of things wrong. I ask forgiveness (again!) And set my mind to never do it again. On my best day I would never suggest I'm o.k.
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Carl Elfstrom
I only bother people who feel bothered by the things I say. Like when it hits home. Keep up the good work, John! You're such a great minister. I bet you hear Jesus talking out loud to you all the time, just like good ol' Mike Pence. And it really shows.
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Carl Elfstrom
Blasphemy...that's another one of those silly christian words, isn't it? Like sin (which the dictionary defines as missing the mark), and sinner. I haven't missed any mark St.John. I'm hitting home runs every time.
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Carl Elfstrom
St. John Owens is soon going to become very defensive and hostile. He's one of those sensitive types, you know, and easily gets his feelings hurt. I bet he's stomping his little feet in the floor and pouting right now, while he thinks of a good way to insult me. I hope he has a pacifier in his mouth, so Jesus won't hear him crying.
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Carl Elfstrom
Yes, I think it won't be very hard to run off the prolific, condemning, self - righteous christians from this blog, so we can finally get started with truly spiritual work. Trust me, and follow my lead, if you can't take the initiative on your own. I'm having a great time, and St.John Owens and those other stooges don't bother me at all. Just one more thing your excellency St. John Owens, before the party truly begins my dearest Sir, "Pleased to meet you. Won't you guess my name?"
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Carl Elfstrom
I'm going to take a break now and smoke another almost legal joint while I listen to the Holy sounds of St. Judas Priest performing the most spiritual song "Screaming For Vengeance." Hopefully numb - nuts will post a reply by the time I return.
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John Owens
Gosh Carl, you are all over the place, here. Seems you and Maher should be great friends. I wonder if you would be nearly as entertaining if your meds were better-regulated.
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Rev. Fulton L. Arrington
I have to say, as a Native American, Religion, and yes that includes "Christianity" has been used to justify a lot of murder and mayhem. Fanatics of all stripes scare me. Right now Radical Islam is the most dangerous, but the "Christian Right" runs a close second for anyone who values liberty.
As for Mike Pence, I doubt that he believes in anything other than his own naked ambition. Unfortunately, the people would rather follow a false prophet who tells them what they want to hear, and that tells them that God hates the same people they do.
And yes, Mr. Owens, people have and do seek to weaponize their "Faith"
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The Doctor
Put down all weapons and walk with arms open wide to embrace others in acceptance with love alone in thy heart.
All things made into weapons let them be cast into the flames to never again be used to harm another.
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Amber
That wasn't the left wing bunch. That was the alt Anti-theist bunch. They can be found to the right as much as to the left sides.
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The Doctor
Carry no bible for it is a story book written by liars with an agenda to rule over others.
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Minister Carey
Well stated. But what’s really true? I spoke with some J Witnesses who stated that Jesus is NOT the God of Abraham. Jesus is the son of God. I didn’t ask which God as the Bible books I’ve read speak of many Gods. My question - if Abraham was of the ancient Hebrews, and spoke the ancient Hebrew/Aramaic language what is the name of the God of Abraham as written in the original Hebrew texts (not Greek or Yiddish Hebrew), if it was written, or was there more than one Abraham of a different culture with a similar story?
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Carl Elfstrom
Jehovah's Witnesses are even worse than christians and should be totally ignored. If they gave you a Watchtower magazine don't read that crap. Throw it in the trash as quickly as you can.
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Minister Carey
Carl, I don’t accept any of their materials. I usually challenge their beliefs using their own “bible”, but when I ran into them the other day in the park, my dog wanted me to walk not talk. However, I did get a chance to ask them when did the Jehovah Witness society become Christian and was told they have always been a Christian organization as they recognize Jesus as the son of God sent to show the way. Whaaaaat! Christians, based on my understanding, are required to recognize Jesus as God - they don’t; celebrate his birthday called Christmas - they don’t; celebrate his resurrection and the bunny called Easter - they don’t. Now what the heck! Christianity has, in a sense, declared war upon itself.
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Carl Elfstrom
Maybe you can train your dog to think that a Jehovah's Witness is the same thing as a fire hydrant.
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Amber
Actually the idea that Jesus is a god is the newer thought as of a few hundred years or so... not that I think the JW group is any closer to any truth as any other sect is. The whole point of Christianity regardless of sect was to try to live as Christ did because that was the way to God, through him... following his teachings. That's easy to overlook though with all the other ideals that are in there.
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Elizabeth Bailey
Carl, Minister Carey's question was not addressed by you. Let someone else speak.
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Carl Elfstrom
I believe their God calls himself "I Am". You know, like I am that I am, and that's all that I am. So maybe they call him Popeye. I've known some men named Abraham who came from this country. So there could be a lot more than you think. And some of them might be schizophrenic and think they're prophets, just like many of the prophets in the Bible. Just give them a medication change and they'll probably never spout off any more prophesies.
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Carl Elfstrom
Let's run the prolific christians out of this country and over to Israel where Jesus came from. They need help fighting the Palestinians anyway. They'd put those loudmouthed Christians on the front line, so the Jews will be spared the suffering. Christians think the Jews are God's chosen people, so they wo'nt mind dying for them. Or will they? To what extent are they willing to practice their faith? I think they're all a bunch of loudmouthed,crybaby sissies who run and hide when they can't get their way.
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Jim W.
Carl, you talk, talk, talk,.. You know nothing of which you speak. You just talk. Christians afraid? Please! You heathen had just killed Jesus, and they came out of the woodwork & dared the world to try & stop them. Despite being tortured & blamed for every trouble under the sun. They died for their faith. Sawn in 2! Burned at the stake. Fed to the lions!! And if you didn't know that, I repeat, you know nothing! You just talk! Such a fool!
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The Doctor
actually its well known that christians had to practice in secret for centuries until the rise of the catholic church
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The Doctor
He that calls any child of this universe a fool shall find themselves forever lost to the darkness and never know enlightenment.
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Carl Elfstrom
What goes around comes around. It's the law of karma taking its toll. Those prolific, condemning christians are getting what they've been putting out. And it's part of my calling to help them along the way.
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Rob
Allah is said to not be the God of Abraham because he is rightly NOT the God of Abraham. You speak falsely
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Robyn J.
Why is it that people are so intent on trying to force others to believe the same as we do? I guess it's a tribal thing. I was raised a Methodist and converted to being a Catholic. What I find wrong with organized religion is that most people who claim a religion, know nothing about that religion and turn around and claim to be experts. I have studied certain religions and find that many of them have a certain commonality. It seems to me that people get stuck on the details and not the overall message. Most religions stress love, compassion, serving the poor and needy and giving comfort. Any religion that does not promote that, seem to just be against natural law. When those fundamentals are ignored and the lack compassion is missing, it seems that those people are the ones who cause the dysfunction most people nowadays, are so much against. I for one, will listen to anyone who has a different belief just so I can share what I have discovered as well. Being curious as to what they have learned from their end, I find facinating. The sharing of knowledge is a good thing and is probably the best cure for this rigid, self serving dogma that is constantly being feed to unsuspecting people.
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Jim W.
Because they're trying to keep you out of Hell Robyn! There's only 1 way out! God said it. We didn't create it just to give the world a hard time? Were trying to warn you! Help you! Believe what you will? Your path is set! Right???
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Amber
Unfortunately what you are missing is the help comes based on belief, not fact. Faith is a way to see and connect with that belief and you cannot force a belief. No matter what you say or do, you just cannot force another to believe something they just can not wrap their head and heart around. Many people have tried to push themselves to try to believe and end up worse off of it, not better. When you push the issue, you just push them farther away and create fear, doubt, self loathing and a whole host of other negative feelings that does not help in finding any kind of faith, in anything. That's always been the biggest mistake anyone from any religious background has made when trying to "save/witness" others. Believe it or not, it's far worse than just letting others be to find their own way. You can't throw a stone in most towns without hitting a church. If and when a person is ready, they will go, if that is what they are meant to do.
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The Doctor
Hell is buta creation of those who seek to induce faith through fear. None that know fear may ever find peace and know love.
Those who claim to know the word of the Divine but are born of this world are other then lost. Only I can offer help and guidance all others are but false prophets.
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Dragon Priest
Pence is an IDIOT claiming to be a christian. Modern christianity is false and a sham. Any one that can talk to jesus in a 2 way conversation will see throught the crap that is peddled as religion by the far right. It is possible to do this. I just askec and the answer is that he is a sham.
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Barb Lanier
If that is true I challenge you to ask that newscaster if she would have humiliated a Muslim world leader the way she did Mike Pence
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Barb Lanier
If what you say is true I challenge you to ask that newscaster if she would have offended a Muslim leader publicly over his beliefs
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Jim W.
Since this is the place for it, I finally get to say it. God does indeed talk to human beings on a need to hear it basis. Remember a thing called the great flood? None of us would be here if God had not TOLD Noah to build a boat! And do you really believe it was a burning bush that told Moses to set the Israelites free? Now that, would be insane. Of course God speaks. By Gods urging a Donkey spoke.. Balams donkey. It would not progress through this mountain pass. Turned back 3 times! Balam got so upset he started kicking & whipping it. The Donkey then spoke up. I've been a faithful servant for years. I always do what you ask. Why are you abusing me? There is an Angel of God in there with a sword waiting to kill you! Im trying to avoid him!!! But Balam like Joy Bahar wouldn't listen. A donkey talk? Outrageous! Or is it? He's God! He can do whatever he chooses! On a more personal level..true believers have the indwelling Holy spirit. And he speaks ALL the time! Dont say that! Dont go there! Give that poor man $5! Stop doing that!...... God the Holy spirit speaks to his true children every day. Many times I've had to stop & say " I love you too Lord." Did I actually hear him say it? Can't swear it? But I felt it in the heart. That's all I care about. Think what you like?
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The Doctor
Bring on the sword wielding angels. They will fall like flies before me. You sir sound alot like the typical radical islamic jihadist rants. way too much rhetoric and no room for common sense let alone logic and reason.
And actually god cant do wahtever he wants. As the covenant says whatever so is decreed on earth shall be true in heaven. Thus the rules of man will rule in heaven as well.
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The Doctor
You do not hear for you lack the physical capacity to endure the voice of the divine. You can not feel for your skin is too fragile to withstand the awesome power.
You are no true child merely a lost sheep bleating in the dark as the wolves circle you. None can save you for you have ignored the words of the hounds intent to listen only to your own bleating.
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Loretta Howell Lillard, PhD
Mike Pence claims or professes to be a Christian which is different from living a Christian life. He must walk the walk not just talk the talk. Jesus would require "taking care of those with the least. Mike must feed the hungry, tend to the sick, take care of the widows. Pray for those who despise him and abuse him. The Christian walk is difficult but there are great rewards.
By the policies he promotes, Mike has not shown he follows Christian principles!
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Amber
And this right here is exactly why so many think Pence is a fraud. He doesn't walk the talk. He is said to pay some lovely lip service but that is all talk, not action. Actions speak much louder than words.
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Leigh Anne Petersen
Sadly, many Christians who get air time look more like the Pharisees Jesus condemned than they look like his disciples.
Most people are not mocking "Christianity as much as they are mocking hypocrisy.
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Don Enge
Part of the reason Christians are being criticized ,is because of what some of the radicals say. Like "Trump was appointed by God,. Using that for example how about people like Hitler, did God also appoint them., The problem is that no one tells people that this is wrong. He gives us free will to chose our leaders, right or wrong.
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Martha Range
YES, Christians are being persecuted all over the Globe. Especially by Muslims.
Allah IS NOT the same God Christians worship. The audacity of those who would conflate the two is unconscionable.
Christians believe in hope and forgiveness, even for those who have evil ways. Christians have the hope that sinners will repent; accept Jesus' sacrifice; and their souls be saved.
Muslims believe in stoning; throwing gays off buildings; beheading; burning people alive; suicide bombings; and honor killings. These aren't in any way similar.
Nothing can justify trying to make them seem the same.
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http://childrenofthelawofone.org/cotloo/
One.. With many Expressions..