Christian bakers win court battle in the U.K.

Gareth Lee (below left), requested a cake from Christian bakers Daniel and Amy McArthur. When they refused, he took the matter to court.

Here we go again. Just when you thought Christian bakers were out of the news for good, a story from across the pond has reignited the debate over religious freedom and LGBT rights. The U.K. Supreme Court has ruled that two devoutly Christian owners of a bakeshop in Belfast were justified in refusing to bake a cake for a local gay rights activist.

The bakery owners, Daniel and Amy McArthur, felt that making this specific cake would go against their sincere religious belief that gay marriage is sinful and informed. The potential customer, Gareth Lee, was outraged and informed the couple he would see them in court.

Bert and Ernie gay marriage cake

The cake included the message “Support Gay Marriage” and depicted popular Sesame Street characters Bert and Ernie.

Court Sides with Christians

Initially, a lower court actually ruled in Lee’s favor, agreeing that he had been discriminated against by the business owners because of his sexual orientation. But subsequent appeals sent the case up to the Supreme Court, where justices ruled unanimously in favor of the Christian bakers.

The court explained that although LGBT rights do deserve certain protections under the law, the specific nature of Lee’s request was a significant factor in their decision. According to reports, Lee had asked that his cake include the message “Support Gay Marriage” in big frosted letters. Incidentally, the design also featured Sesame Street characters Bert and Ernie, who have recently been the subject of considerable controversy.

In the end, the court decided that it was unfair to force the couple to endorse a message that so blatantly conflicted with their religious beliefs. While denying service to a gay person is reprehensible, the justices explained, in this case it was the message – not the fact that Lee is gay – that the couple objected to. “Nobody should be forced to have or express a political opinion in which he does not believe,” they wrote.

“I Just Wanted a Cake”

Speaking to reporters after learning the court’s decision, Lee explained that he feels like a second-class citizen. “I think this has consequences for everyone. Anyone can walk into a shop – you shouldn’t have to work out if you’re going to be served based on their religious beliefs. I am confused,” he said. His full statement can be viewed below:

Two Courts, Two Victories

Christian groups frequently lament how their rights and religious freedoms are slowly being taken away. However, critics point out that if we’re keeping score, Christians are the ones on top right now. As you’ll likely remember, it was only a few months ago that the U.S. Supreme Court sided with a Colorado baker who had refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding (albeit in a narrow ruling). That makes two courts in less than 6 months who’ve faced high profile cases and ruled in favor of religious business owners over their gay customers.

What do you think – is religious freedom really under assault?



  1. Dr. Daniel R Thomas Ph.D. says:

    Yes religion is and always has been under assault. The underlying theme is that there truly is a good and there really is evil. Side with good and evil works all the harder to come out on top. The game belongs to God. He makes the rules. If you don’t like His rules, then don’t play His game. But, if you don’t play, then you have no right to the rewards that come with the game. You fail to inherit the kingdom of God. If you play, then you must play by His rules. Too bad that His game is the only game there is. Many will say “Lord Lord …” And I will reply “Truly I do not know you.”

    See you later? Maybe not.

    1. Frank Lowe says:

      Restaurants, eateries etc., can deny customers if they don’t wear shirts, shoes etc. This makes perfect sense to deny this gentleman his cake, owners are obligated to their business. If they world have done this and betrayed their beliefs then they probably lost more business.

    2. Rev. Rene says:

      Are these bakers the only bakers within a reasonable distance? Surely not, and just as customers have the option of choosing where they shop, so retailers (including bakers) should have the option, within reason, who they serve. I would not wish to serve a client with a costume of nazi design, arm band and cross, etc., and as this is abhorrent to these Christian bakers (homosexuality), so they should very well have the right of refusal.

    3. Sylvi Sterling says:

      To those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

  2. Jim Doire says:

    It wasn’t that he was gay that put the baker off, it was the message that he wanted on the cake. I would have bake the dude his cake only because gay or straight, who gives a rip? But those are my morals. I’m Christian and I think Jesus would have got a kick out of the homos. Especially the flamers. My understanding of Jesus is he was cool like that. But I can see the bakers refusal to bake a cake with that message on it. Some people feel strongly about where complete strangers park their beef bus. I could not care any less if I tried. But if I were a baker and someone asked for cake that said “Seattle Seahawks Suck”, I’d ask him to take his business elsewhere.

    1. Rich says:

      I can and do concur with you on that….

    2. Jim says:

      I tend to agree with you on this one, if he had asked for a simple birthday cake he would not have been refused. What would happen if someone wanted a cake that said “I support abortion”. Same thing! Most people would refuse to create it. Just go some other baker, and ask if they can make it for you.

  3. rebadams7 says:

    I will only put this as simply as I can- any artist in any medium may choose to decline a commission. It may be in cake or flowers photograph or paint, ice sculpture, marble sculpture or performance art. If He had walked into a shop. Pointed out a premade items and said I want that and they had discriminated with him that would be wrong but when you request a specific commission from an artist they have the right to decline the commission

  4. Prison Ministry Services says:

    No one should be forced to do anything . If this person feels he doesnt want to bake the cake them fine. He’s a fool, but he had a right to be what everkind of fool he wanted to be.
    He is the one not gonna get the money for it. Im sure there are other bakers who would back the cake and not judge the person requesting it. Is it right to reject this person’s order YES. BUT…I don’t thinh the baker should be forced to back it. So far as I know there is no law against being a fool. If there were the prisons couldn’t hold everyone.

    1. TIAII says:

      Close their

  5. The Pastor says:

    Me, if I were asked to bake that cake for the gay couple I would have. The Bible says judge not…
    If I agree with their life style or not it’s not my place to cast judgement. Maybe not the life style I myself would go with, but they have a right to be gay if they want to be.

    1. b0blf says:

      ‘pastor?’: Not a pastor of the Scriptures, I’m sure! ‘The Bible says judge not . . .’ you said. Why not be an honest student of the Bible and present differing aspects of judging?

      In John 7:24 Jesus encouraged us to judge ‘rightly’. And He told us to rebuke the errant in Luke 17;3. All this involves discernment, perception . . . . judgement.

      Now, is it permissible to ‘judge’? Who is correct . . . you or Jesus?

    2. Ricky says:

      Pastor, I liked what you wrote about leaving judgement to God, and I agree with you.

      But I’d like to point out a couple of things if I may. First, people aren’t gay because “they want to be.” No one, gay or straight, chooses their sexual, romantic, or social attractions; they just are who they are.

      Also, there is no gay lifestyle, only gay lives. There are as many lifestyles as their are people, and no two are exactly alike.

  6. The Pastor says:



    1. Jim Doire says:


      You just spelled out Christianity to me. And I’m not sure but I think you may have spelled out Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, a cool Atheist, Taoism, Paganism and any other “ism” out there. Tending to your “own garden” will keep you so busy you wonder what anybody is else up to. You’re all right.

      1. Tuk says:

        To The Pastor,
        Many years back I did live next door to a gay couple. I found them to be intelligent, caring, motivated, artistically gifted, and very trustworthy. As we were good friends my wife and I felt completely at ease letting them babysit our two young children, and our children preferred to have Matt & Mario than any other babysitters in the neighborhood. Mario, a celloist in the Philharmonic Orchestra, would let my children play with a few stringed instruments, while he played his cello, and they would make their own special kind of music. The kids loved it and would relate some great stories and even adventures while being watched by Matt & Mario.
        Just because I liked Matt & Mario doesn’t mean I like everyone else that’s a little different then I am. As with all interactions, with others, my accepting, and trusting is on a person by person basis. This also means that as a person I’m also being judged on my character, and will, or will not be accepted, by some based on my actions, attitude, and treatment of others — regardless of who or what they are.
        It’s funny as I don’t consider myself to be a Christian, but I do strive to be the best person or human I could be and to treat all those persons or humans around me with a tone of friendship and respect. Just because I like and treat all people with respect doesn’t mean all people will like and treat me with respect; and as I understand that’s going to happen makes it alright.

  7. The Pastor says:


    1. b0blf says:

      ‘pastor’: You still haven’t answered by question in reference to your 12 Oct posting. Does the Bible allow us to judge?

      1. Jim Doire says:

        Ah dammit. Here you just said


        The kid on the show is different, not bad. He’s not hurting anyone. You’re not one of those virtue signalers are you?

      2. TIAII says:


  8. Rev. Brien M Demartino says:

    OK, enuf with the stupid, and yes I do know how to spell enough, see if all of you crazy freakin zealots on both sides can wrap your poorly twisted brain cells around this……ready?…I DO NOT GIVE A FIDDLERS DAMN WHAT YOUR BELIEFS ARE. Now, let me break that down for you.
    1: My beliefs are my own, and I will not impose them on you.
    2: Your beliefs are your own and you will not impose them on me.
    3: I reserve the right to serve, socialize, and otherwise claim to my village anyone I damn well please. If you do not like it, you are probably not part of it.
    4: You also have the same rights spelled out in #3.
    5: If I do not wish to do business with you then move on. I am certain you will find a much better place to spend your money.
    6: Again, you have the same right spelled out in #5.
    7: I do not care at all what label you apply to yourself. Likewise you do not have to care about any label put on me.
    Now I hope this little trip through COMMON SENSE has made an impact on you crazy folks. Again, as always, these common sense items are NOT open for debate. Grow up and be your own person, and stop trying to be famous. —end or sermon—

    1. Rich says:

      well put, I concur and will most likely use your verbiage in future.

    2. Barry says:

      One thing that should be remembered. The owner of a business has the inherent right to refuse to do business with anyone he/she doesn’t want to. My father owned a jewelry store for over 40 years. He was a very open and tolerant man and I have only known him to refuse to take care of 2 people that I know of,

    3. Eric Norrbom says:

      Amen! We choose our own path. Others choose theirs. Live and let live.

  9. Ben says:

    This kind of ignorant discrimination in the 21st Century is insane.
    That said, I wouldn’t trust some ignorant ass clown with making anything for any special event I was having. Especially my wedding, So, they should find another baker, who isn’t so close minded.

    1. Jim Doire says:

      Having strong beliefs does not make the baker an “ignorant ass clown”. Your use (or misuse) of punctuation would lead most to believe that you are an ignorant ass clown. Yet no one here can pass that judgement based only on your tenuous grasp of the English language. Are you any good at math?

    2. TIAII says:

      More will come

    3. Carl Elfstrom says:

      ….or buy a cake mix. How hard is it to bake and decorate a cake? I’ve done it several times, without any training.

  10. b0blf says:

    ‘dementedtino’: Not so fast . . . . . at the ‘end or sermon’ (end OF sermon) there’s usually an ‘altar call’, an ‘invitation to ‘get right with God’. You for got that part!

    1. Jesus cares what your beliefs are.
    2. Your so-called ‘rights’ maybe ‘yours’ . . . but where are they taking you?

    The Bible says that you need a Savior because we all are sinners. ALL. And the only Savior that meets Father God’s requirements is Jesus. ONLY Jesus.

    So, back to your ‘sermon’ end’. It’s decision time. Have you acknowledged your sins and repented of them? Do you know Jesus as your Savior? Now is the time!

    1. Ken Dixon says:

      “The Bible says that you need a Savior because we all are sinners. ALL. And the only Savior that meets Father God’s requirements is Jesus. ONLY Jesus.”

      You’re wrongly assuming that everyone’s religious beliefs are (or should be) exactly the same as yours.

    2. TIAII says:

      As it always does

  11. Tuk says:

    I just have one question. Why can anyone else, in any other industry, refuse their service without any repercussions; but, when it comes to a Christian business that refuses service to anyone regardless of their expressed reason, or perceived motive, they are persecuted? I mean, doesn’t the owner have the right to refuse serve to anyone for any reason? OK, I miscounted that’s two questions.

    1. Jim Doire says:

      I think you got three questions in there. Two and half questions for sure. 🙂

    2. Catherine says:

      I grew up with the belief that any business can deny any customer service. Why is it that only Christian businesses can not do so? Also, why do the people who bring these lawsuits go to a Christian bakery. Are there no gay cake decorators in town? Why would you force someone to make you something when they do not want to do it. They may spit or worse, in it. The answer is, the money. They go to Christian bakery, schools etc. Asking for something so out of the way so that they can sue. It is all about the money.

      1. TIAII says:

        will lose sight

    3. Judith Waldrop says:

      Indeed. I NEVER see a gay couple asking Muslim bakers to make them a wedding cake or “support gay rights” cake. I wouldn’t expect a Muslim restaurant to serve ham sandwiches either. These bakers never refuse to serve gay customers birthday cakes, cookies, pies or any item that does not appear to condone something that they don’t find violate their personal beliefs. As to myself, I personally would bake the cake and performing their marriage ceremony.

    4. Carl Elfstrom says:

      What goes around, comes around. How often have supposed Christians persecuted gays, regardless of what Jesus did with his twelve merry men when nobody was looking?

  12. Iconoclast says:

    —“Qu’ils mangent de la brioche”—

  13. Amber says:

    There are two issues going on here, the right to run a business the way the owner wishes and equal liberties. The unfortunate truth is that the laws state his business, his rules. It isn’t a government office so isn’t subject to division of church and state. As long as they are paying their taxes then they get to decide who to serve. It’s bad business, granted, with the discrimination involved, but regardless the reasons the business owner does get to choose.

    As for the discrimination, these are not violent acts and nothing is taken from the gay couples in question, and they can go elsewhere to get their cakes, so as far as the laws are concerned there isn’t a crime here. Clear prejudice and nastiness, sure, but no crime. I hate getting political on a religious site but if you don’t like faith getting to discriminate in the name of their religion then vote, petition, protest, do what is within your rights and power to do that isn’t breaking laws. The fact is politics, as much as we might not like them, affect us all one way or the other. Don’t like how something is going, dig deep, see where you can get involved and make change. Otherwise it just keeps going until people get seriously injured.

  14. Rev Dr Robert Murphy says:

    Let’s try to boil this down to a little Common Sense. A businessman and/or owner of any business establishment has a right to do business with and/or serve whoever he pleases! If he doesn’t like to looks of “Sonny Jim” he doesn’t have to serve him, or her. If he takes an order and then doesn’t like the message, or what the message implies, which also may or may not reflect upon their business, then they have a right to refuse or withdraw the offer. It may be a little shortsighted or foolish from a business point of view but it’s only money at the end of the day.

    However, look at the amount of publicity that this case has brought both parties. The complainant has had received positive support and negative support in equal measures and the Business owner likewise.

    I’m quite sure that, in this age of the compensation culture, there was no thoughts of any compensation or damages or bruised feelings and ego when the case was started. I’m also sure that the courts costs are damned astronomical. At the end of the day what has this gained that common sense wouldn’t ?

  15. Mike W says:

    I’ve always voted with my Dollars and you can vote with your Dollars/Euros/Pounds. If a business discriminates against me or something I believe in, I go somewhere else. And I let people know, politely, what is going on. Then they can choose where to spend their money. (That’s what Yelp is for.) When business drops, then maybe they will see the light and change their ways. 🙂

  16. David Corbett says:

    So, we are all “Ordained Ministers” right? And can or do marriages for hire, right? Cool. Couple comes up, wants to hire you, marriage is all nude.. everyone, with the exception of swastika arm bands. Can you refuse?

    1. Bob says:

      Yes, the marriage is a ceremony within a religious context. You can openly discriminate against people within the Church structure based upon the moral beliefs of the Church (Catholics openly discriminate against women within the Church structure). However, once you open a public business, you are no longer protected by being within the confines of the Church and your freedom to discriminate is (and should be) limited.

  17. Herb Kleinfeld says:

    Wal-Mart absolutely refuses to decorate cakes with certain motifs. Yet, everyone just accepts that. Why all the fuss over a small bakery doing the exact same thing?

    1. Mike Denyer says:

      Because certain groups in society seem to have the “conviction” to fight for their cause when going up against a “mom and pop” business, but lack the balls to go after giants like Walmart… it’s easy to sue a small business into the ground… not so easy when the business in question has money and lawyers… Bullies have been using this tactic for eons… and that’s EXACTLY what these “special interest groups” are… they’re bullies.
      They feel they have more rights than others and they use unfair tactics to get their way. Here in the US it’s the same way… however, freedom of and freedom from religion are written into our Constitution… choices relating to sexuality are not… yet “mom and pop” stores and small businesses are targeted every time by special interest groups… Here’s something very interesting though… I live near Dearborn, Michigan… where the largest concentration of Arabic Muslims outside of the Middle East resides… there are MANY Muslim owned bakeries in this area and yet, despite the fact that they most certainly WILL NOT cater to homosexuals (based on religion)… not one of those bakeries has ever been sued by a homosexual couple for not receiving their cakes… I wonder why that is.

  18. themarketminstrels says:

    If all he wanted was a cake he sure could have founds an infinite number of ways of getting one other than trying to force someone to make him one who didn’t want to do it. I wonder why he is so intolerant of their right to pursue their creative art in accordance with their moral standards. I wonder if he rips burkas off muslim women because he just wants to see their faces. .I understand left-wingers are the most intolerant group around, such as the Antifada Fascists or students who will not let conservative speakers talk at a university, but his political beliefs do not give him the right to make others submit to his will. Let us pray left-wingers will someday realize the value of tolerance.

    1. Minister Norman says:

      Your myopic definition of “Tolerance” is… amusing, at best.

      But speaking of Burkas, I wonder if you’d be okay with this Baker refusing to serve them, since you’ve invoked Muslims as your example?

      Just a thought! Our do they get a pass?

      As for Left-Wing Radicals, its Antifa, not “Antifada”, so at least, try, and make an cogent-intelligent point. And I guess you missed all those Right-Warped insane MAGA Marching with (lol), Tiki Torches, and one of them driving his car into a crowd of Peaceful Protestors; Murdering one, and injuring dozens??


      Regardless, I’m against all forms of hate speechs, hateful actions, violence, and discrimination!

      But I do respect an individuals right to have & hold whatever beliefs they choose… Just so long as they don’t impose them on everyone else. While I do NOT believe anyone “Chooses” to be Gay, anymore than anyone “Chooses” to be Straight, people do “Choose” to be Religious, Intolerant, Racist, and Bigoted, and in whatever form that takes.

      The issue I have with most of the intolerant comments here (including yours), is the “Religious” imposition on everyone else, and mostly from those professing to be “Christian” & “Tolerant” & otherwise “Religiously Motivated”!

      First off, this is The UNIVERSAL Life Church, NOT a “Christian’s Only Forum”, so get over yourselves!

      Secondly, you chose, or were raised, or were indoctrinated into “Christian” beliefs, however “devout” you are! So you do not get to inflict your “beliefs” on everyone else, or decide right & wrong for everyone! Any more than a Muslim, Atheist, or anyone else does. Not in a UNIVERSAL Forum, and certainly not in a, thank God, still Secular Society!

      Third, if you do want to continue pushing Religion as “Law”, as so many have suggested here & elsewhere, be careful what you wish for!

      Bringing about (imposing) “Biblical Laws” on Society, as too many believe “GOD intended!”, will backfire! It always has!

      I would caution you to look back at the Inquisitions & other “Christian” Religious abuses throughout history! But actually, you need look no further than Radical Islam & Sharia Law, for what you are actually suggesting.

      Once we go there, and I and a lot of others will fight against all of you, but you may find the “Religious Utopia” you so hoped for, was just a figment of your imaginations, but the nightmare too many others are willing to impose on ALL of us, is all too real, and what you believed you signed on for, is actually Tyranny!

      “Those who do not learn from the past, are destined to repeat it.”

      I’ve studied the Bible front to back, many times over the years, but more importantly, I’ve studied it’s “Origins”! As such, I could never be a “Bible Literalist” as too many ignorant people are today. That book is just too transformed over the ages from it’s humble origins, and I believe, from Jesus true Universal message of Love, and Peace, and Tolerance.

      So I challenge all of you so-called “Christians”, to test your “Faith” and belief structures, by finding out how your “Holy Bible” actually came into being, with all of its many iterations, and especially, how all of it’s many additions & subtractions for Papal & Political Gains & Control came into being.

      Or not! But put a sock in it!

      Not everyone does or has or should believe as you do; so go “god-damn” yourselves, and at very least, leave the rest of us out of your “Literalist Religious” insanity. Plainly, If you cannot be civil within a Secular Society, then at least keep it to yourselves.

      Finally, only the legal aspects of any of this matter anyway, or should, be considered; not “Religion”!

      Legally, these Bakers do have a right to refuse to serve anyone! That’s a fact, and that should be the only consideration here. Those pro-testing them, also have a right to go elsewhere for their “Message Cake”! …And that’s what this was!

      However, where I believe there is a legal issue, is using the Bible to discriminate, and just as it was misinterpreted and abused to discriminate against Black People in the not so disyand past. I’d fight that aspect of this case in court, if I’d been appealing it, but alas, sadly, for now anyway, it’s already been adjudicated in the Highest Court.

      I do wonder though, what the ruling would have been if this was simply an obvious case of, “I refuse to sell you ANY cake, pastry, or anything else we make, and because you are Gay”, sans any Pro-Gay Message requests? Though I do believe the Courts already erred in their decision anyway! How is this any different from refusing to serve someone of a particular Race you dislike, or perhaps that Muslim Woman wearing that Burka, so many find offensive?

      We make so many exceptions to our Secular Laws in favor of “Religious Tolerance”, and when it is too many Religions that are actually being Intolerant.

      Where do we draw the line?

      Can someone refuse to serve someone they “suspect” is Gay, or perhaps who makes that evident with say a tee-shirt confirming that fact? Not sure this ruling says that’s okay, and if it does, well, there’s your “Slippery Slope”! Because then, they are not merely invoking a right to refuse to actively “endorse” a message or as many say, “Lifestyle”, but infact are actively exercising discrimination!

      If you’re okay with that, then can others say, “No Christians Allowed”, because, “We don’t serve intolerant people”? That’s where this is all heading. It’s not “Religion”, it’s Tribalism. And is this really the Society anyone wants?

      It’s not a Society I’m going to easily tolerate. It is one I will continue to fight against.

      Finally, and personally, I’d have gone someplace else if I were them! A wedding is a joyous event, why sully it with a Cake, either baked reluctantly, or especially, filled with HATE?

      A few years back, I went to an “Ethnic Bakery” near my house, just ONCE! I stood in line, only to have the counter person lean out and say “Next” to the people behind me, and of her same race! I said, “Am I invisible? I was next!” She laughed and replied, “Yes, just like we are! You get served if and when I decide to serve you!” Almost everyone in the place laughed!

      I left, and I never went back!

      But I did tell all my friends, and in a very mixed neighborhood, that didn’t go over well. That Bakery had once expanded, but after more people experienced or heard about their discriminatory practices, they now occupy just a third of their former grand-bakery footprint!

      Vote with your feet! And tell others!

      I did, and especially folks of their same race, and many of them also stopped patronizing that Bakery.

      Today, it’s barely squeaking by!

      My takeaway! Don’t patronize any businesses that discriminate against anyone for any reason!

      Always Vote with your feet!

      If enough of us do this, then the Bigots & Racists & Religious Zealots can all rot in their own hatred, or, learn to actually become more Tolerant.

      Thats my “Novela” on the issue! Thanks for reading it! 😂

      1. Minister Norman says:

        *DISTANT* not “disyand”? …Oh the typos!!!

  19. TIAII says:

    for the froth

  20. David H. says:

    Surely these people can’t be the only bakers in town. And I’m sure there are some very creative gay bakers that would love to take on this commission. I think if he had done a little more research he would have saved himself quite a bit of money and embarrassment.

  21. Bob says:

    First off, I am gay. If I owned bakery and someone came in and asked for a cake with writing that said “Gays Are Evil”, I would refuse to make that cake. Pure and simple.

    1. Alicia says:

      Exactly! Finally, someone who gets it!

  22. oldbill says:

    I think I would choose a business where sexual preference makes no conceivable difference.

  23. HM King Possum III says:

    When someone operates a business that’s open to the public, the anti-discrimination laws in the US require that they must serve all of the public. If a business sells decorated wedding cakes as a regular item, then they must sell them to anyone who has the money to pay for it.

    You can’t turn away customers based on who they are. It’s the same as when lunch counters in the southern US refusing service to black customers. I thought we’d settled that issue half a century ago.

    Selling a cake doesn’t equal participation in the wedding, as some of these bakers claim. How can he be participating if he isn’t even there? The cake is just a food item that’s served to the guests after the ceremony, none of whom know or care where it was bought. Whatever happens to the cake after it leaves the shop is none of the baker’s business, and is no reflection on him.

    Personally, I’m suspicious of the Colorado baker’s claim that he’s just exercising his “religious freedom.” When a straight couple comes into his shop to order a wedding cake, does he ask them if either of them are divorced? Have they committed adultery in the past? Have they conceived children out of wedlock?

    I’d bet my last dollar that he doesn’t ask those kinds of questions, even though Bible is equally against those things, and states that these things are also sins.

    It looks to me like he thought he’d found a clever way to raise his middle finger at the gays, and used the “religious freedom” excuse get away with it. I wonder what Jesus would think of someone using Christianity as a way to cloak his bigotry?

    If you want to pick and choose your customers, then become a private contractor. Then you can accept or decline any commissions you like.

    1. Robert Tucker says:

      FYI. Jack Phillips, the Christian baker from Colorado, no longer makes wedding cakes of any kind.

    2. Alicia says:

      The baker in Colorado had made many cakes for the gay couple previously with no issues at all. They were good customers and they knew of the baker’s beliefs. The baker just wouldn’t make a WEDDING cake for them. He even gave the couple the name of another bakery who would make the cake. The baker wasn’t against the gay couple…he just couldn’t design a cake celebrating what was against his beliefs.

      What that couple did was try to ruin a good business. That was just plain evil and far worse than someone not baking a damn cake.

  24. Sam says:

    I think people tend to forget the privileges and power in general that Christianity has; and it’s not fair and it’s not right They feel their religious freedom is under fire yet they’re winning case after case and have many laws in law books in their favor. If anything, they’re “on fire”. Example, USA is supposed to be secular but Christian holidays are nationally recognized and the government closes its offices as do other businesses. Try getting Yom Kippur or Ramadan as a national holiday in the USA; or any Christian country. Chritians can have Christian themed tv programs and no one questions it; they even have massive church services televised. Their Christian themes pop up in movies and other pop culture and no one questions it. The Christian religion has freedoms other religions can only dream of and hope to obtain one day. Churches are exempted from paying taxes, and there are millionaires who only have that money because they preach in massive churches and on tv. Chritians are not seen as bombers here to destroy the world; they’re not seen as evil Satan worshippers when the word “magic” pops up. They’re having a fit because they’re slowly being taken off the top of everything. They’re having a world sized toddler temper tantrum and it’s both funny and sad to see; and a little dangerous. How far will they continue to go with any of this because they’re feelings have been hurt and they feel they are slowly being chipped away at? They already think they have the right to tell people what they can and cannot do with their bodies (women’s reproduction rights for one GIANT example).

  25. Bob says:

    I don’t believe that religious beliefs should allow one to discriminate in the public square. My belief is that the principles of equality and tolerance take precedence over religious beliefs in the public square. I am Catholic. The Catholic Church discriminates against women in not allowing them to be in positions of authority in the Church. However, once in the public square, I cannot use that belief to not put women in positions of authority within my business. Once you open your doors for a public business, you should be required to serve whomever walks in the door. You don’t get to decide not to serve people based upon their belief system. Baking a cake, even with the message requested, is not in any way a sign that the bakers endorse the lifestyle – they’re just making a cake for God’s sake.

    1. Robert Tucker says:

      “Once you open your doors for a public business, you should be required to serve whomever walks in the door. ”

      Bob, would you then demand the halal restaurant down the street, open to the public, should now serve pork? Or the African-American owned/operated art studio around the corner should sell material enjoyed by a member of the KKK?

      Also, your comparison about the Catholic church and women is a moral choice. You believe it wrong to discriminate in that way. That is based on your interpretation of your own faith.

      The (hypothetical) halal restaurant mentioned above discriminates against Jewish tradition by not serving kosher foods. The fundamental religious reasoning for—and preparations of—halal and kosher foods are very similar but not the same. It is rooted in moral (religious) objection to a particular thing. That same halal establishment discriminates against your everyday lover of BLTs. This type of discrimination has not produced any lawsuit. Not even a #BLTsAreSandwichesToo social justice movement. It is a double standard.

      “Baking a cake, even with the message requested, is not in any way a sign that the bakers endorse the lifestyle – they’re just making a cake for God’s sake.”

      “Making a Bacon, Lettuce, and Tomato sandwich is not in any was a sign that the kosher deli workers endorse the gentile (non-jewish) lifestyle – they’re just making a BLT for God’s sake.”

      Are those the same?

      1. Bob says:

        You’re mixing up what a vendor chooses to provide with whom he chooses to serve it to. A vendor can decide to offer whatever services he/she chooses. One can decide to sell pork or pizza or hamburgers or BLT’s. That’s not the issue. The issue is that once the vendor establishes the services he/she provides, they should not be allowed to deny those services to people based upon a religious or philosophical belief If you’re selling pizzas, you sell to Nazis, the KKK, Christians, Muslims, Jews, the LGBT community, etc. Also, I did not say that the Catholic treatment of women is immoral. I was simply pointing out that there is a long tradition of allowing discriminatory practices within a religious organization that we would not allow in the public square. This is not new ground.

  26. Robert Tucker says:

    Interestingly enough, that Colorado baker, Jack Phillips, is once again mired in legal issues—due to his refusal to make a gender transition affirming cake. We’ll see how that plays out. Also interesting is that the US Supreme Court ruled that the Civil Rights Commission that deemed what Mr. Phillips was illegal prejudiced him. It was more a referendum on the process.

    That aside, this case is wholly similar. The court likely held up the “message” aspect of the case as there is legal precedent for not forcing artists to produce commissions they do not agree with. (Covered by the First Amendment here in the US. In 1998, the United Kingdom incorporated the European Convention of “Freedom of Expression” into its domestic law under the Human Rights Act.)

    It is immoral to coerce someone to create something that sends a message they disagree with. Especially when the basis of that disagreement is religious.

    For me, this kind of thing hinges on religious objection to a thing… which is the part people attack. In these cases it is the religious objection to spreading a message of gay marriage or gender transition that is the offending element. NOT the gay/transgender person themselves. (“Hate the sin, not the sinner.”)

    “There should be no objection! Your are discriminating if you don’t bake the cake!” Some may say. I’m curious to know if they would say the same to a Jewish owner of a kosher deli when they were really hungry for a pulled pork sandwich? Would the vitriol aimed at Christians for not making a cake be the same vitriol leveled at a Muslim artist who refused to paint a picture of Mohammed? I seriously doubt it…

    This kind of double standard is biased against the Christian. This is why they win their cases.

  27. RM says:

    I believe there is a misconception of the Bible. The Bible was NOT written by God or Jesus. It was written by man…numerous men. It is intended to teach. Not to take word for word and so extremely literally. The Bible is read, and the reader chooses their own perception of what they read. To one person, it can relay one message. But, to another, can be perceived quite different. Stop throwing out your own interpretations and calling it, “Gods word”.

    1. Alicia says:

      If you’re talking to a born again Christian, they will tell you that the Bible was written by God and is his word. They also take it very literally. I have a cousin who believes that the earth is 6,000-some-odd years old. WE know that’s ridiculous, but that is THEIR belief. I even pointed out that dinosaur bones were recovered that were millions of years old. The answer: Those were planted by the devil to make us doubt the word of god. I stopped trying to have a conversation about this with him.

      You and I may know that the Bible was not only written by many men but that it was written hundreds of years after the stories told supposedly happened.

      1. RM says:

        Exactly, Alicia!

        1. b0blf says:


          Last eve I paused beside the blacksmith’s door,
          And heard the anvil ring the vesper chime;
          Then looking in, I saw upon the floor
          Old hammers, worn with beating years of time.

          ‘How many anvils have you had.’ said I
          To wear and batter all these hammers so?’
          ‘Just one.’ said he, and then with twinkling eye,
          ‘The anvil wears the hammers out, you know.’

          And so,I thought, the Anvil of God’s Word
          For ages skeptic blows have beat upon;
          Yet, though the noise of falling blows was heard,
          The Anvil is unharmed, the hammers gone.
          (Source unknown)

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