Satanic Temple statue of Baphomet

Members of the Satanic Temple gathered outside the state capitol to unveil a statue of their own: a 7 ½-foot-tall figure of Baphomet.


You might remember that earlier this year, Arkansas lawmakers passed a controversial piece of legislation approving the installation of a Ten Commandments statue outside the state capitol. The new statue was put up in April (replacing an older version which was dramatically knocked down by an angry citizen last summer). But a growing number of critics have voiced their opposition to the statue, which many see as an unwelcome intrusion of religious belief into public spaces. The ACLU launched a lawsuit to have the statue removed, but as of now it remains standing.

Enter the Satanic Temple, who organized an event that would be impossible for lawmakers to ignore. Yesterday, members of the Satanic Temple gathered outside the state capitol to unveil a statue of their own: a 7 ½-foot-tall figure of Baphomet, the goat-headed idol with deep connections to Satanic belief.

Arkansas new Ten Commandments statue

Arkansas recently reinstalled a Ten Commandments statue outside the state capitol after the previous one was vandalized.

Because installing a permanent statue on state property requires legislative approval, protesters were forced to remove the statue after the event. Nonetheless, the incident put Arkansas politicians on notice.

A Cool Reception

Arkansas State Senator Jason Rapert, who sponsored the law authorizing the Ten Commandments monument, pulled no punches when asked about the Satanic Temple bringing their own statue to the capitol. He called the protesters “extremists” and said “it will be a very cold day in hell before an offensive statue will be forced upon us to be permanently erected on the grounds of the Arkansas State Capitol.”

Unsurprisingly, an attempt to reason with state lawmakers went nowhere; a formal letter penned by the Satanic Temple requesting that Baphomet be given a permanent home outside the capitol building in Little Rock received no response.

Not All Statues Are Equal

Satanists argue this is a matter of religious freedom, and insist that the law is clearly on their side. “If you’re going to have one religious monument up then it should be open to others, and if you don’t agree with that then let’s just not have any at all,” said rally organizer Ivy Forrester.

Under the Constitution, the government is prevented from doing anything to unduly favor one religion over another. And yet, by allowing a Ten Commandments statue and blocking a Baphomet monument, Arkansas seems to be doing exactly that.

With the ACLU’s legal challenge still winding its way through the courts, it may be a while before a formal ruling is laid down. In the meantime, what is your reaction? Should Arkansas be able to promote one type of religious monument and block another?

 

221 comments

  1. Katelynne V Shouse says:

    Once, Baphomet, has been permanently installed I do hope the Pastafarians will get The Flying Spaghetti Monster’s statue up rather quickly!!!

    1. J says:

      Hey, I’m gonna ERECT a mock-up of the entire “island of refuge”. That’s my religious icon. LOL .

      1. James says:

        The Island of refuge ~ located in the Pacific…

    2. Adina M Sobo says:

      I will happily kick in for any FSM statue on public ground. I think it’s a very good looking Baphomet, and definitely supports the idea of the government NOT favoring any religion.

    3. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Then they should sprinkle some grated parmesan and Romano cheese on that pasta statue and lick it off, as a sign of worship to the spaghetti god.

    4. Lionheart says:

      As I tend to worship craft ales, perhaps erecting a monument of a beer glass?

      Better still, selling my idol in the form of a real glass of beer on the premises would refresh those visiting all the other monuments.

      1. Michelle Teeter says:

        That is one church my husband would join. I think he is already an unofficial member.

    5. christal vinson says:

      This country is is built on the words of God’s. This not right .God is seeing who is on his side

      1. christal vinson says:

        I pray on the matter. The heavly Father said. This you can’t serve to master’s. You have to choose who you will serve. I am God and there is no other. from Evangelist Christal

  2. Stephanie Willey says:

    Too bad the atheists don’t have a statue. Or do they ……….

    1. Rev. Joe says:

      That right thar was funny, I don’t care who ya’ are.

    2. Lori Mongillo says:

      They are atheists! It’s their way of mocking religious aggression.

      1. Lea Weisenbach says:

        That’s a yes and a no..

        1. Lori Mongillo says:

          How so, yes and no? From what I’ve read on them they don’t believe in the devil. They’re focused on sensible thought and well being in an atheistic way.

          1. Terry Thompson says:

            Have YOU ever commanded a “sensible” thought?
            Certainly doesn’t appear that you have… Moron…

          2. power to the people says:

            Where’d that come from Terry? You mad bro?

          3. Lori Mongillo says:

            Thanks Terry. Peace to you too.

          4. Alicia says:

            WOW, Terry….that was so mature of you to call someone with an opinion a “moron”. Thanks for showing us YOUR intelligence level.

        2. Lori Mongillo says:

          Is that yes and no coming from a Christian point of view or from an intellectual?

          1. Tom says:

            Lori…respectfully; it comes from uncertainty…Peace…Tom

          2. Lori Mongillo says:

            I agree that things are not ALWAYS what they seem, but more times than not, things are exactly what they seem. Some people want to believe that I sacrifice chickens in weird rituals just because I’m Wiccan, but that doesn’t make it true. They create all kinds of images in their minds. They seem to like viewing others in a negative way. I guess it makes them feel better about themselves.

          3. Tom says:

            Lori…i do not agree with everything that you write, but i do not understand the attack by Terry…i feel you think about what you write, and you express yourself respectfully…i believe that a lot of people view Wiccans in the image of the Wicked Witch of the Ease; or the witches in Disney movies, or other similar presentations…the Druids, and Merlin, are much more realistic to me…Peace…Tom

          4. Lori Mongillo says:

            Thank you Tom. I don’t always agree with you either, but I can honestly say your responses seem to come from the heart. Folks like Terry live in a harsh and strained mentality. I don’t envy him.

          5. Tom says:

            Lori (re: 8/21 5 am)…thank you…i try to write after i have considered whether i am reacting, or coming from a heart/spiritual place…i find that virtually nothing worthwhile is accomplished through anger…Peace…Tom

          6. Lori Mongillo says:

            That is a wise way to approach responses, but sometimes it’s pretty hard to hold back the hostility.

          7. keith ainsworth says:

            Tom, that would be agnosticism, not atheism

        3. David Mitchell says:

          I agree, as a minister we know that Jesus said that heaven and earth will pass away but His word will not return to Him void. This is truly a fullment of the prophecies contained in Revelation!

          1. Rev. Michael Bole says:

            May God bless you for the truth.

          2. Alicia says:

            You do realize that not all Ministers are Christian, right?

            As for this being “the truth”…whose truth? There are many because in this life, none of us…and I mean NONE OF US….know what awaits us when we pass from this life.

          3. Carl Elfstrom says:

            We could show Terry what us Wiccans are capable of, through a little protection magick, like “Double bubble, toil and trouble ! We aren’t the fools who turn the other cheek. Beware ! You’ve been warned. And as I so Will so mote it be !

      2. Todd says:

        Only aggrrssion is the atheists. They decree there is no God yet fight tooth and nail when someone says god . They really shouldnt care. Yet they aggressively go after statues, books,class, ppl etc that even has a hint of God. News flash the 10 commandments are not just Christians. They also belong to the Jews and for the most part Muslims. They are a basis for all modern laws. Should there be no law against murder because the Bible, Torah and i think the quoran said so?

        1. Lori Mongillo says:

          Todd…. Not all atheists are aggressive. I don’t think the atheists that put up the statue are particularly aggressive either. It is a response to Christians wanting to get their own message out there by forcing it on the public through their personal images. If Christians want their statues to be seen, then others should be able to do the same. The point is if Christians want to expose my children to their belief system in this manor, they should also be prepared to have their children exposed to the images of my religion. I’m not saying either are right. It’s the stuff wars are made of, but sometime there has to be a ‘push back’ to make a point. These images are personal and neither belong on public property.

          1. michelle teeter says:

            The statue is to prove a point. The government is fine with putting forward Judeo-christian ideals. BUT when it is anything but Judeo-Christian forget it. If it were something Wiccan they would flip. As an Atheist, the ten commandments do not offend me. If the ten commandments are on an old building like here in our old courthouse, I would not want them removed. They are part of the buildings history. However, I have an issue with the government putting up a statues that imply that THIS religion is sanctioned by the government .

      3. Todd Walters says:

        What aggression? Only aggression is from atheists. They decree anything with a slight religous connection to be the govt sponsering it. The 10 commandments has links to Judaism, Christianity and Muslim. Our laws have l iui nks to the 10 commandments. Should we not have the law do not kill as it is decreed in religious books?

        1. Lionheart says:

          Yes Todd, don’t you just love the laws if God? They are so beautiful and divine. Let’s bring back slavery as stated by God in Exodus 21, and while we are at it, being as God directed people to stone the man to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath day, let’s bring back stoning. God is so wonderful and merciful!

          1. michelle teeter says:

            Let’s not forget plucking one’s eyes out if they look lustfully at another person. People love to just look at certain passages of the bible. They do that because THAT passage proves their point. They ignore all passages that disprove it. Christians say the Quran is more violent than the bible, but ignore all the violence in the bible. I have not read the Quran. I keep meaning to but with my new medication makes me tired and I fall asleep easily when reading.

    3. Michelle Teeter says:

      FYI Satanist are atheists. They do not believe in any supernatural being including Satan

      1. Reverand Raymond Smith says:

        Carl Elfstrom, a Binding Spell works very well. No one gets hurt
        Blessed Be

        1. Carl Elfstrom says:

          You are absolutely right, Reverend Raymond Smith. Thanks for mentioning it.

          1. Carl Elfstrom says:

            P.S. And Blessed be your feet that have carried you here…

      2. Todd Walters says:

        You are wrong. Otherwise they would not bring a statue of a “mythical” supernatural being

        1. Michelle Teeter says:

          I am not wrong. Please educate yourself on Satanist. They are simply atheists who like to get their point across.

          1. Alicia says:

            Actually, I always thought of Satanists as disgruntled Catholics who used the term “Satan” to cause the most uproar within that community.

          2. michelle says:

            Alicia I would assume a lot are. Their Black Mass resembles a Catholic Mass. My parents were both raised Catholic. However when I was one my father converted to being a Jehovah’s Witness. Therefor, I was raised both. Now I am an Atheist and much happier.

  3. Rev. Joe says:

    It will be interesting to see where this goes.

    Perhaps they will have “The Field of Icons”.

    1. Reverend Krystina S. says:

      Maybe the “CoExist” bumper sticker, only larger… it would sound good to me, except that (as a person of Faith), I do not think that ANY religious iconography ought to be in public spaces. We have the right to religion in our private spaces. The People need to be protected from “Religiousness.”

  4. Gordon says:

    I like how people ordained like me think this is amusing. Mathew 22:21 outlines that if this nation we live in states that religious freedom and divide between church and government that these Satanists have rights that need to be respected or we need to change the law to state the opposite of what it says.

    1. Alicia says:

      Why must the laws be changed? Doesn’t everyone of every religion or spiritual belief have the same rights?

      I’m Pagan. I have rights. But, I don’t get offended by ridiculous things like statues…ANY statues.

      1. Todd Walters says:

        Amen.

      2. christal vinson says:

        This country is is built on the words of God’s. Wake up people’s. the Deliv want to be like.

    2. Lionheart says:

      For God so loved the world, that he drowned everyone in it, with the exception of one family led by a drunkard.

    3. Rodney Knight says:

      Why must the law be changed to suit the few be because they get offended over a statue may be better Idea is did the world of religion all to together then people will have nothing to worry about or argue over the law is the law if one religion is allowed to place a statue tablet or other marker of their belief on the the courthouse, capital or any other government lawn then they must make room for all as a pagan o have no Intrest in placing statues of my beliefs on Any lawn but my own religion or lack of it is a very personal thing no one has the right to force their beleifs on others or deny them there right to believe or not to believe by placing the ten commandments then denying others the right to place their own has in effect done just that

    4. Carl Elfstrom says:

      If Arkansas won’t abide by our constitution let’s kick it out of our country. We never needed that little pee-on state anyway. The best thing they ever did in that state was produce Bill Clinton. Guess what the worst thing was.

      1. Todd Walters says:

        10 commandments are a basis for laws. Should we canx all laws because of there root in religous books?

        1. AKConiferious says:

          if the only basis for the law is ‘my religion says so” – yes, get rid of the law..

  5. Carrie says:

    Since all “Religions” are equal under the law, they should easily win the suit! Then, Kali, Isis, Artemis, Thor, Odin, Jupiter, and every other God and Goddess get a place as well. Soon enough there will be no way to get to the state house and that is exactly what those bigots deserve!

    1. Lea Weisenbach says:

      👍

    2. Rev. Joe says:

      Like I said “A Field of icons”.

      1. Alicia says:

        Kind of like in a Catholic church or cemetery, right?

    3. Daniel says:

      I totally agree. The politicians who claim to be Christian often do so as nothing more than a political strategy while forgetting the Christ message was about how TRUE leaders SERVE the people. The current laws of the people call for separation of church and state while allowing religious freedoms. As such public displays of religious symbols on government land must abide by the rules of “all or none”. Though the idea of the numerous statues blocking their entrance to their “den of iniquities” is a humorous picture of poetic justice.

  6. Gail D says:

    No state or federal government can legally promote any particular religion. It is clearly unconstitutional. Yet they been doing just that for decades. It was wrong in the 1950’s and it is still wrong. Yet the players involved fail to see the hypocrisy of their argument. Worse, the public, we the people, go along with this constitutional violation. Why is that?! Why continue to elect these representatives who clearly don’t respect or uphold the constitution…

    1. Minister T. Post says:

      Now that is truth plain and simple. The Constitution is the only real document that protects our rights that the counties, and states keep chipping away at and states like California have been violating constitutional law since the 1950s Here’s food for thought. Did you know that registration of your car was voluntary in the 50s and 60s.. Now the states force registration licenses, and insurance on you because signing your name on any DMV forms is presumed consent without telling you that you will be giving up that constitutional right . Their is no facts telling you will be giving up a right which is what presumed consent covers up. I heard a judge tell someone he was sentencing that ignorance of the law is no excuse. That’s the world they operate in. Know your rights and know the law is how you beat them at their own game.

    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Let’s have a ministers march on Arkansas. Come on, people, let’s start planning it right now !

  7. Lea Weisenbach says:

    What is good for one is good for all…

    1. power to the people says:

      What would the atheist statue be, an angry seething statue with the word “show me the proof!” inscribed on it?

      1. Alan J. Meunier says:

        NONE of the atheists I know are angry nor seething…sounds as if your knowledge may be a tad limited on the subject. Why can’t folks be able to do good things on their own without any fictional rewards after death without being labeled? What do we call a person who does not believe in unicorns?

        1. Tom says:

          Harry or Lisa or John or Aileen or whatever is the name of the person…Peace…Tom

        2. Rev. Joe says:

          EVERY atheist I have met has anger issues, and I am certainly not “limited on the subject”. I don’t think power to the people said or insinuated that people can’t do good “on their own” or anything like that….they were just commenting (with some humor I suspect). Atheists label themselves…..as atheists, lol.

          Finally, what do you call someone who doesn’t believe in unicorns? “An adult”.

          1. hsw says:

            How is it exactly that we “label ourselves”?

          2. Rev. Joe says:

            You call yourselves “atheists”.

          3. Stephanie Willey says:

            I must agree with Alan. I have never met an Atheist I have ever known had anger issues. I wonder of those who experience anger from an Atheist if that anger was well earned through bad manners.

          4. Lionheart says:

            Rev Joe, you too are an atheist if you don’t believe in the gods of other people’s religions. It’s just that you aren’t an atheist in the belief of your own god.

          5. Michelle Teeter says:

            I know plenty of atheists who are not angry. As a minister you should refrain from being judgemental.

          6. Carl Elfstrom says:

            And adults seem to function best when they get in touch with their inner children. I’m glad I never but mine inside. And you’d never believe all the mythological beings I believe in. There’s no such thing as an unimaginative Witch or Wiccan. Blessed be !

          7. Carl Elfstrom says:

            Y’all should see my atheist stepfather in a traffic jam. Regardless of beliefs, some people have stress prone personality types. There are only sixteen personality types to choose from, and they aren’t labeled with the names of religion, or lack thereof.I’m just glad I’m one of the luckier ones.

        3. Rev. Joe says:

          Insinuating? lol. Stop.

          1. Equal Civil Rights says:

            To call someone who is different than you an A-theist is about as silly as labeling someone an A-unicornist because they do not believe in unicorns.

            Bugs Bunny Does exist, legally, physically, visually – all can agree that Bugs Bunny (TM) (R) (C) Does indeed exist.

            Bugs Bunny is real, just as the words of Jesus are real. They are real jn the sense we can think about them. We know them. As they do exist, they are fact.

            But is Bugs Bunny REAL ?

            Is there a talking rabbit living in your back yard ?

            If someone believes & follows tge teachings of Jesus, I am happy for them.

            If they believe in Unicorns or Bugs Bunny, I am happy for them too.

            But can I erect a monument in front of the State court house demanding everyone worship Bugs Bunny as the one and only true diety ?

            Can I violate citizens natural rights to Free Speech by punishing them if they use Bugs Bunny’s name in Vain ?

            Would it be legal to demand the public stoning and execution of any child for owning a plush animal Bugs Bunny ?

            To find the TRUTH of Laws, simply cycle through a few words to see if it works for all situations.

            Yaweh is the One True God
            White Men are the one True God.
            Islam is the one True God.
            Flying Spaghetti Monster is the one true god.
            BUGS BUNNY is the one True God.

            Clearly, the 10 commandments first 4 commandments are criminally illegal unconstitutional nonsense.

            The concepts of not stealing, not murdering, are good ideas to promote freedom, peace, and inequality.

            Note the 10 commandments make no restrictions on husbands sleeping around, only wives – yet two more 14th Amendment Civil Rights Violatons of EQUAL PROTECTION under the law. The commandments as written only apply to women wives.

            So in every copy of the ten commandments the following are unconstitutional violations of your civil rights:
            1st Amendment to Free Speech.
            1st Amendment to Freedom of Self Expression.
            1st Amendment Freedom of Religion.
            4th Amendment to Private Property Rights.
            14th Amendment to equal rights under the law.

            As such, all 10 commandments posted on government land are criminally illegal.

            If you want to sell off a 10’x10′ plot of land to a private owner and move the monument a few yards away off of government land. Then yes, that is legal. Just as legal as any other private object owned on private property.

        4. keith ainsworth says:

          So, you admit that atheism is only a belief. At last, an honest atheist

          1. Reverend Krystina S. says:

            Equal Civil Rights, I LOOOOOVE the way you think. Kudos.

        5. Carl Elfstrom says:

          That sounds like having a healthy moral conscience. Why wouldn’t anyone believe in unicorns? What’s not to believe? What if unicorns don’t believe in you? Did you ever think of that? That’s like saying there’s no such thing as leprechauns. Haven’t you heard of Warwick Davis? I wouldn’t want him coming after me.

      2. keith ainsworth says:

        Statue of what?

  8. Tom says:

    No governmental entity should act to support any religion…Peace…Tom

    1. Lori Mongillo says:

      So true.

      1. Alex Russell says:

        Thats so simple and also in fatasy land i can fly wake up

    2. Reverand Raymond Smith says:

      Totally Agree, Tom

  9. Tom says:

    ULC: where is my first comment?…Tom

    1. Rev. Joe says:

      The one about uncertainty? Scroll up a bit, it’s there.

      1. Tom says:

        ULC…thank you…i see it now…Peace…Tom

  10. Marcel French says:

    First of all there’s this little thing called separation of church and state, secondly having a religious icon on state government property is not the big deal everyone’s making it out to be. Part of a religious group that feels having a statue representing your religion on any government property somehow validates your religion that’s a sad way to exist. But since for some reason some people like to have a petty arguments over so-called hot-button issues because they have no real life the least they could do is keep those of us who have a brain of our own out of their petty insignificant caterwauling.

  11. Rev. Neel says:

    Seperation of Church and State is a protection for all in the Constitution. No State can make or uphold any law that violates a Federal Law. This is the fundamental basis of all this drama. I just hope it does not take too many years and tax-payer dollars to come to this simple conclusion.

    1. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Thank God for vandals. The ten commandments won’t stay up long.

  12. angel says:

    I wish people would just use common sense….I’m seriously beginning to lose hope in mankind because I’m beginning to think that humans are being born with less and less brain cells every generations…

    1. Tabraea says:

      Thank you… I share beliefs in your way of thinking. Some of the most intelligent in the world lack common sense.
      The situation is a sad one. Brain cells are dormant. The universe will weep.
      Blessed be

    2. Lori Mongillo says:

      Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by common sense, from your point of view? What humans do you consider loosing their brain cells. It’s always interesting to know what motivates these kind of comments.

      1. InfoWars says:

        The first commandment demands the genocide of all non jews. and the rest of it requires the stoning and public execution of sinful jews.

        That is a problem for all humanity.

        1. Lori Mongillo says:

          It certainly is!

  13. Hamilton says:

    The First FOUR commandments are unconstitutional and illegal, since they clearly outline the only religion allowed is Hebrew, bans Free Speech, bans self expression, and basically is a Hate Crime against the entire human species, since the Biblical penalty is genocide to all non-jewish people.
    How about putting up a monument to our American Inventors, Explorers, Peacemakers, and businessmen and women?

    Most mythology is based upon fantasy works of fiction and illusion, some of which is drug related halucinations.
    Free Speech makes no restrictions on source materials.

    Libertarian, Federalist, Constitutionalists, and civil right activists do not infringe upon your rights and only ask that you do not infringe on their rights.

    Every one is free to put the ten commandments, or KKK banners, Catholic or Satan statues , or any other monument on their own private property. That is the 1st , & 4th Amendments regarding your own personal private conduct on your own personal private property.

    The States & Federal government can not establish one state religion, but also can not bar or restrict any other religion.

    If the State posts and enforces the 10 commandments, all non-Hebrew people must be publicly executed. As well as the great majority of ‘sinners’ that broke the commandments in any form.

    This is not an acceptable course of action for a free and democratic society.

    The great majority of people would most likely vote against their own full scale state sponsored genocide, mass imprisonment, or enslavement in labor death camps.

    1. Alex Russell says:

      Im thinking no on the wickn atheists and Catholics evil on earth

    2. John Owens says:

      There is no commandment in the outline called the Ten Commandments regarding genocide at all.

    3. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Face it. All of those commandments suck. Even the mere thought of being commanded, by God or anyone else, totally sucks (except during bedroom games).

    4. Reverend Krystina S. says:

      Hamilton, I love the idea of monuments to great Americans. Interestingly, I just went through the Cultural Gardens in Cleveland, Ohio (650 miles from my home.) There are gardens representing many different nationalities, and in each one we see monuments to the Greats of their Nation/Nationality (some were citizens of the U.S., etc.) Those GREAT individuals chosen were scientists, authors, musicians, humanitarians, Nobel Laureates, secular leaders, etc. (Mother Theresa was celebrated as a great Polish humanitarian… not as a great Nun in India.) It was very moving. In our country, frequently we do not idolize those who have bettered our country and our world. We, and our children, need these great men and women to aspire to, and to celebrate.

  14. Christian says:

    The first four commandments are genocidal hate crimes against the human species, as such they are unconstitutional and illegal in any context other than private property.

  15. Michael Fotschino says:

    I do not believe that the ten commandments are representing a religion in this situation, I believe is showing us the American way of truth ,honesty, and faith in our fellow man, if you read it you will see what this Country is made of. Just my opinion thank you.

    1. Christian says:

      The ten commandments require genocide of all non Hebrews and all sinful Hebrews.

      This is a Bad Idea for planet Earth, USA and the whole universe.

      1. John Owens says:

        I guess it is okay to criticize the ten commandments, but please list the chapter and verse in the ten commandments about genocide, if you can.

        1. Carl Elfstrom says:

          It’s not only okay John, it’s joyful !

    2. Alex Russell says:

      I agree

    3. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Opinions are like a–holes. We all have one and they all stink. Some would say that Moses not only had one, but was one. And however this country got started, and by whatever principles it was founded on, by people who with their principles have been long since dead, have absolutely nothing to do with what’s going on now, except to a bunch of backward, sniveling crybabies, who think progress must come from past mistakes, since they are apparently incapable of original thought, like our forefathers had, and would be only happy if they were improved upon, to fit ever changing times, events, and ways, instead of becoming stagnant, and regressive by not keeping up with the times.

      1. Carl Elfstrom says:

        Breaking free of old ways that no longer serve the good of the people is why they got the hell out of England and started this country, which makes doing that the only true American way. If you don’t believe me you can read it in the preamble of the Declaration Of independence (which can easily be googled).

  16. Tabitha Feller says:

    Freedom of religion means ALL religions. And the government shall have no state religion means just that. But Truth be told, we live in an unacknowledged theocracy, and most don’t even realize it.

  17. Minister Darrell says:

    The Ten Commandments and Christianity have shaped and continues to shape this country like it or not .our laws are based on the Ten Commandments and honoring that history is not an endorsement of Christianity,it is simply a remembrance of what our laws and society are based on,and when I read our founding fathers papers I don’t see any references to a satanic being.

    1. Christian says:

      The Love of Money
      and Endless Wars continue to shape the future of Humanity.

      We all are in need of more enlightenment !

    2. Reverend Krystina S. says:

      Actually, Minister Darrell, our Laws and Society are based on SECULAR HUMANISM. Most of the Founding Fathers were not traditional Christians, but they were all Humanists, and strived to create a SECULAR society, not a theocracy. Modern day Iran is an example of a theocracy. We are protected FROM the tyranny of any one Religion in the U.S.

      1. Lionheart says:

        You are right on Krystina, I totally agree with you.

      2. Lori Mongillo says:

        I agree as well.

  18. Lawrence Dawson says:

    They put up one of those decalogue pieces in Boise on the state capitol grounds and there was sufficient complaint tht it was moved down the block to the St. Michael’s Cathedral (Episcopal).

  19. Rev Ned says:

    The “Freedom of Religion” thing should apply equally to all. Right?

    1. Alex Russell says:

      What a simple minded response

      1. RevNed says:

        You should watch “Bambi” again. What did Thumper’s mother say?

        1. Carl Elfstrom says:

          I saw Bambi Does Dallas. Is that the one you mean?

  20. Lawrence Dawson says:

    Yep!

  21. Old Bill says:

    Even “community standards” can be manipulated to favor one idea over another. Putting a religious icon in a public place is not necessarily a right of a religion, so, not allowing any religious icons in public places would not be discriminatory against any religion.

  22. Alex Russell says:

    I disagree i think its a good thing your on the the wrong site

    1. Carl Elfstrom says:

      I disagree with you, Alex. I think Old Bill is right, and you might be on the wrong site. Of course, wisdom comes with age, usually. When did you say you’ll be graduating from elementary school, little boy ?

  23. Lady Ananya says:

    Please do your history lesson. This is NOT a satanic figure. Drawn by Eliphas Levi. Please take a minute to read Wikipedia. This gives the best description I have found for “The King of The Witches.” Most witches are not Satanic. A lot of them are earth based and some Christians. As Clergy y’all should have open minds.

    1. Lady Ananya says:

      By the way I am not Wiccan. I am a witch of centuries old practice. Witchcraft is a practice not a religion. Wicca is a religion.

      1. Cary Talbott says:

        Bless you sister. I too have been a Witch since long before Wicca became a thing. I live and breathe my faith. I do not bow to a higher power as They are within and without. If everyone would keep faith this world would be a peaceful place indeed.

        1. Lori Mongillo says:

          You don’t bow to a higher power? Yet you say They are within and without. Who are They? Just curious.

          1. Carrie says:

            It is not a matter of who, but of what. They are the dark and the light, the yin and yang, the opposite side that are part of each of us. When we do spells (others may call it prayers) we are essentially opening ourselves to the possabilities that we don’t yet see. The divine is part of us, as it is part of the world around us.

          2. Lori Mongillo says:

            Sounds pretty much like the Wicca I know. Wicca is a practice and a religion. You can’t bow to something that is part of you. Thanks for your responding. I appreciate it. Blessed be

          3. Tom says:

            Carrie/Lori…Agreed…Peace…Tom

        2. Lionheart says:

          If everyone would keep faith with what exactly?

          Many people keep faith with their religions, and that’s where the problems of this world exist.

          1. Carrie says:

            Obviously then, they don’t. Faith is a deep part of each of us. To condemn another for their faith, because you don’t “believe” is following dogma. Faith is not a written word, it is within each of us. All children have a divine faith, it is dogma, hatred and bigotry placed there by baser individuals that warp and destroy that faith. As I was taught, We may not be able to save the world but, if each of us would save our own little bit, the world wouldn’t need saving. That also means ridding ourselves of hate.

          2. Lionheart says:

            As Mark Twain said:
            “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so.”

      2. Carl Elfstrom says:

        So, you’ve been a practicing witch for hundreds of years,eh? Did you remember to take your meds today?

        1. Rodney Knight says:

          Carl
          there is no reason to be rude many pagans, wiccians, and witches believe that they have lived many different lives so yes they could have praticed for hundreds of years weather you believe it or not is not the issue we have right to no our beliefs with you being rude to people

      3. Carl Elfstrom says:

        All Wiccans are Witches, but not all Witches are Wiccan. I am a natural, eclectic, solitary, and in this incarnation an initiated member of Wicca since January1, 1980. In case any of you would like to cast my astrological chart I was born at 1:00p.m. on February 14,1963 in Galveston,Texas, and have nothing to hide, or hide from.Blessed be !

    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Us Pagans and Wiccans call it the horned god, which is all good. The corrupt early Roman Catholic christian sect distorted it to mean something evil, in an attempt to gain members over Paganism, and is how and why the devil came to have horns and carry a pitchfork. The good Satanists aren’t the ones who distorted that belief. It was the evil Christians, long before Satanism was ever thought of. And did you know that if you switch the letters around in Satan, you get Santa ? Ho Ho Ho !!!

      1. Lori Mongillo says:

        And….the church incorporated the virgin Mary into the catholic mix to appease the goddess loving pagans. But I do like the Satan=Santa thing. Cute. I am Pagan/Wiccan as well. I’m not sure about the “practicing for hundreds of years” thing, as Lady Ananya has mentioned. I’ve done the past lives thing and I’m not convinced that it all matters, but people can believe what they want. Hereditary doesn’t make it better or more powerful, it still all boils down to what you do in this life, not what happened in the past. I’ve seen hereditary witches that can’t punch their way out of a paper bag, but they always throw the “hereditary thing” around like the Christians use verses from the bible. It serves no purpose, other than an attempt to impress. As for the Satanic’s using the image of the horned god, They really don’t care what the image is, all they care about is how it irritates the non-progressive Christians.

        1. Reverand Raymond Smith says:

          Weii said, Lori!

  24. Gil says:

    If Christianity was sufficient to formulate laws for our Country then, it should govern interpretation of law now.

    1. Lionheart says:

      Thank goodness it doesn’t or slavery would still be present in the US and we would be insisting universities stop teaching evolution, and insist they teach the earth is only about 7000 years old. We might also be still stoning people to death here in the US.

  25. Secretary3rd says:

    And God created those who have been bless, short on brains.The original 10 were put down in stone for those of His belief, not the slaves of Rome. Those from India may also want to have their Gods images put up. Is there enough space to have all of them there?

    1. Lionheart says:

      If all the religions of the world were to erect a stone monument the frontage would resemble a graveyard, which perhaps would be most fitting for many State Capitol buildings with their antiquated and archaic bills.

    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Moses spent plenty of time, alone in those mountains, to carve those commandments all by himself.

    3. Carl Elfstrom says:

      They might just become stumbling blocks, along the way.

  26. Rev. D J says:

    I am in favor of one non-denominational monument to peace.

    1. Reverend Krystina S. says:

      Hear, Hear! As the Statue of Liberty is a monument to our nation’s welcome of all to its soil, (for so we should), a monument to PEACE would be wonderful (and queue the warmonger arms manufacturers….) I am afraid we would find something to argue about in anything. However, PEACE OUGHT to be something about which we can ALL AGREE…?…

  27. Jennifer Kemper says:

    I am curious-why do you call the statue an “Idol” when statues of Jesus or the ten commandments are not?

    1. Lori Mongillo says:

      Apparently statues of Jesus and the commandments are representations of truth, everyone else’s statues don’t qualify as representations. Christians believe these other statues are actually worshiped, so they’re called “Idols”. Very strange.

      1. Tom says:

        Lori..what they seem to fail to realize is that God is not a statue, idol or any other physical presence…there is no way to create a physical presence representing God…so none of the statues, idols or anything else have any significance…Peace…Tom

        1. Lori Mongillo says:

          I agree.

        2. Lionheart says:

          Tom, you are quite right, there is no way to create a physical presence representing something that doesn’t exist.

          1. Lori Mongillo says:

            To each their own

          2. Lionheart says:

            If you have evidence to show/prove a god does exist please present it.

          3. Lori Mongillo says:

            Prove there isn’t a god. Our personal spiritual reality comes from our need to connect or not to connect. It’s a choice. If you’re happy and content with not believing, then it works for you. There is no reasonable argument either way.

          4. Lionheart says:

            Lori, the burden of proof always lies with those who say something exists. If I say unicorns exist it’s for me to prove it and obviously should have the evidence to back up my claim, not for others to try and disprove it. So, if you say your god exists, I’d like to see your evidence of your claim so that we can all eradicate these other gods people are worshipping, who also have no evidence of their claims.

          5. Lori Mongillo says:

            Sorry, dear, there is none that I can share, so I if that makes you feel good, so be it. Again I say, “there is no reasonable argument either way”.

          6. Lionheart says:

            So is it your logic “there is no reasonable argument either way” unicorns don’t exist if I say they do?

            It’s actually a ludicrous position to try and maintain. Your argument in support of your god, like all other gods, appears to only exist in myth, just like my unicorn.

          7. Carl Elfstrom says:

            God only ever exists to those of us who believe. And I pity those who don’t.

          8. Lori Mongillo says:

            You are entertaining. Yup. You can have your unicorn and I can have mine. And from where I stand, I see no position to maintain. Your spiritual reality is yours and mine is mine. It’s pretty simple.

          9. Lionheart says:

            So I guess what I’m hearing you say is that your spiritual “reality” has no basis whatsoever as you have nothing to base it on apart from “feelings” you have.

            As for me, I don’t know what “spiritual reality” is. This is yet another gray area that people like to refer to that has no supportive basis but insist it exists.

          10. Tom says:

            Lionheart…Respectfully, there is no onus on anyone to prove anything said…to me, the point of the forum is to hear and consider different ideas and approaches to spirituality; not to prove anything…Peace…Tom

          11. Lori Mongillo says:

            You’re saying that you have no spiritual nature whatsoever? I know many atheists that admit to having a spiritual nature, though it’s not difinable, but they are not out to disrupt others. They just live their lives in the best way they can without the need for “God”. So what’s wrong with that? Nothing at all. If you’re happy and respectful of others then life is good. Why do you concern yourself with how others approach their spiritual nature?

        3. Lionheart says:

          Tom, I heard and considered your response to this post and your response implies there is a god. My following responses are merely statements of inquiry to submit evidence to that claim from those who support your view. I don’t see a problem with healthy educational dialog.

          Peace to you!

          1. Tom says:

            Lionheart…respectfully, there is a God/Universe, from whence we all come…while i agree with dialogue, my feeling is that dialogue about beliefs is helpful, while questions of proof are not…you certainly have the freedom to express your beliefs, but you seem to be challenging others to prove you wrong, and i do not feel that is useful…while we are in this “world”, it does not help to try to prove the existence of God/Universe…Peace…Tom

          2. Lionheart says:

            Thank you Tom. I do realise there is a universe from where we all come from. Our atomic structure comes from the elements of the universe. It’s true that I do challenge others to prove the existence of their god, and that includes Allah, Thor, and any other man made god and that is because I see too much evil associated with them, all emanating from the beliefs of their god. All children are born atheists and would more than likely remain so if it wasn’t for the indoctrination from their family/culture. This I find very sad. Telling little children who cannot comprehend any god that they were born in sin and will go to Hell if they don’t accept Jesus Christ is just one form of mental abuse that the Christian Church uses. This is why I ask for proof of such a god in defense of little children who do not have the mental capacity to ask and debate such stupid doctrine.

            And please don’t get me started on the stupidity of circumcision for little babies who don’t have a choice. All in the name of religion.

            Peace!

        4. Alicia says:

          When asked, a Christian will say that Jesus is God, so any statues of Jesus are representations of God, therefore, idols.

          I also find it amazing how Catholics refuse to believe they are worshiping idols when they pray to the statues of saints. Are these not the same as gods and goddesses? I guess it’s a pick and choose type of worship.

          1. michelle teeter says:

            They actually pray for them to intervene, to be there go between so to speak. They do not worship the saints. Many people do not seem to know the difference. I never understood why Catholics are not only STRONGLY disliked in the christian community but others say Catholics are not christian.

          2. Lori Mongillo says:

            It must be similar to animal spirit guides. When I mentioned a totem animal to someone I was asked why I worshiped animals. We don’t worship animals. We develop a relationship with the images. Those spiritual images can also intervene and aid in our connection to the Source.

          3. Tom says:

            Alicia…Respectfully, all followers of religions practice varying degrees of selectivity, because all religions distinguish between followers and non-followers…the reality is one God/universe, with everyone on varying degrees of our karmic paths…the more a religion accepts all persons as equal spirits, regardless of following a religion, the better…i find that pantheistic religions tend to be the most accepting, as they tend to avoid right vs. wrong…Peace…Tom

          4. michelle teeter says:

            Thank you Tom. As an Atheist I appreciate the reminder that Christians are not the only ones here.

            Lori people often make assumptions when satues are involved.

          5. Lori Mongillo says:

            Michelle, yes, people make assumptions about many things. Sometimes it’s better to dig a little deeper into the things we THINK are what they are. There’s usually so much more beneath the surface if we take the time to look.

    2. Carl Elfstrom says:

      That depends on who you ask.

      1. Carl Elfstrom says:

        If we ignore even the lionhearted nay sayers, they will eventually go away, or conform.

        1. Lionheart says:

          You can ignore scientific truth as much as you want Carl, but ultimately you will come to rely on science, not your god, to keep you alive as long as possible. Science and its truth will never go away (I’m sure much to your dismay) and will only get stronger, just as it has done over the centuries, whereas religion and its dogma remains stationary, and is possibly weakening, with advocates grasping at straws to support their misguided truth. Science will never conform to mere speculation and mythical tales.

  28. Tikkun Olam Reb TK says:

    This event was intriguing enough for me to explore the history and beliefs of those who consider themselves Satanists, and like most faiths what I learned was as doctrinal and in many cases murky (historically) as any other belief system, including my own.
    The idea that Satanism as a response to social oppression of the haves versus the have not’s rings true through all faiths. Aside from superstitions and fears resulting from old tales, objectively I can’t see the difference between one or the other.
    Good and evil, like most of the things we humans struggle with due to our particularly human trait of discrimination (up, down…this, that…day, night…black, white, we, they and etc… What is evil? A statue with a goat’s head and children admiring it or the on-going dramas of churches and endless child sexual abuse cases?
    So much for casting stones.
    The law of the land is that religious liberty (including personal belief, regardless of any associated organization) is protected. We need to protect it regardless of whether we agree individually or congregationally with this or that system of belief or whether we feel it is valid.
    And, while I am Jewish, I have to add a quote from the New Testament (though the idea goes way further back) that no one , and that means no one, really does good… only g-d does good….
    And the rest is all, as we say in rabbi-land…”commentary!”

    Peace…tk

    1. Carl Elfstrom says:

      Some evil can be a lot of fun.

      1. Carl Elfstrom says:

        It’s best to maintain balance. A little good and a evil, but not too much of either.

        1. Carl Elfstrom says:

          That is, unless you’re planning to reach oneness with the creator during or after this sojourn. I doubt that I ever will. I’m having too much fun.

  29. William G. Unger says:

    Hi

  30. Tom says:

    Respectfully, there is no need or method to prove anything spiritual exists to anybody, as we “live” in a world of illusions that are a projection of ourselves, and we are simply a limited “form” of part of our Reality…Peace…Tom

    1. Lori Mongillo says:

      Oh yes! I like that, Tom!

      1. Tom says:

        Lori…thank you…to go further: if we can look at the attitudes of the people with whom we interact, and the situations that confront us, and see they are projections of our limited beliefs/knowledge, we can learn so much, and make so much progress…it is not easy, as our egos do not like it, but is so worthwhile…Peace…Tom

        1. Lori Mongillo says:

          Tom…. it has taken me some time to get to that point, and sometimes those projections still get the better of me, I do try to understand where folks are coming from, and you’re right about learning. The Path is a life long journey of learning for some and others get stuck somewhere along the way and just settle for what they think is “all there is”, going no further. It’s very difficult to push through the conditioning. It took me two years to break through the Christian brain washing. At times I felt I was evil while pushing it away, but the de-programming process was well worth it. And I’m not talking about the Jesus teachings, I’m talking about the church dogma. Rising above what has been drummed in to you from childhood can be a wonderful and liberating experience.

      2. Lionheart says:

        Lori, I like you, but please don’t be misguided by anything people say, and that includes me. Open your heart and mind and think clearly about what people are saying. Have freedom of thought! The mixed salad of words used by Tom just doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

        Of course there is a need to prove things (unlike Toms reasoning), or we all end up being the blind leading the blind and following like sheep into a death trap of bigotry. And then, before long, we are cutting off people heads, or foreskins, because we don’t need to know if the words written in a book are true or not because the “spirit” tells us to do it.

        This “spirit” thing has a lot to answer for. Children have died recently because the “spirit” told the parents to pray and not seek medical help.

        As far as I’m concerned, it’s Tom that’s living in an illusion of reality.

        1. Lori Mongillo says:

          I like you too, Lionheart. I also like Tom and a number of others on these blogs. I am at a point where I cannot be spiritually misguided. There are things that others say that resonate, and connect, with what I already find acceptable with my own illusion. You are an intelligent person and I can relate to your concern that others try to influence us. My husband is a Christian deacon and I am Pagan. I am quite secure in my thoughts on life and I have a comfortable sense of what spirit means to me. I have found that I truly have a need for ritual and meditation. It helps me find a sense of peace. I have always felt a spiritual connection with the natural world, so when I had had enough of Christianity I began to develop an eclectic Pagan Path. I’m not big on myth and the “I can turn you into a toad” kind of thinking. I really don’t know who or what the Source of creation is, but through creation I find a sense of spirit. Yes, it may be an illusion, as you say, but what I have learned leaves me open to so much more than who I am and I like it. For me to close myself off from my spiritual nature leaves me empty. I have gone through the atheist/agnostic stage. I prefer to be open to whatever draws me in this direction.

          1. Lori Mongillo says:

            Lionheart, go on line and check out my CD, Adala “Dancing Naked”. The song, “Dancing Naked”, is an expression of becoming liberated and shedding the conditioning if society.

          2. Lionheart says:

            Thank you Lori. I’ve been where you currently are. Talking about “Dancing Naked” I have been involved with Wicca and have literally danced skyclad during rituals.

            I actually feel more liberated at this time in my life, basking in my freedom of thought and not constrained by any religious dogma. I have now completely thrown off the shackles of any religious indoctrination that prevented me from enjoying true freedom of thought. You only have to look at the congregations of Benny Hinn to see how religion can corrupt individuals, all believing that the “spirit” is directing their lives.

          3. Lori Mongillo says:

            I’m glad you found s way that works for you. Life is good!

    2. Lionheart says:

      Tom, with respect, I find your comment absolute utter rubbish. Try proving to a little child dying of bone cancer that all they are doing is living in a world of an illusion, which is a projection of themselves and all they are is a limited form of part of their reality.

      Seriously Tom, please, go to the nearest children’s hospital, look into a dying child’s eyes, and with their parents present, give them your mythical philosophy. Let me know if they let you out of the building alive.

      1. Lori Mongillo says:

        Lionheart… Try telling a child that’s dying that death is the end of their existence. Raw reality without a sense of spirit can be harsh and cold. Try telling a child, your daddy is dead and that’s all there is. End of story. You blame ‘having a sense of spirit’ on all the evils that exist.
        There has been soooooo many atrocities performed in the name of science, to children, adults and animals. Humankind is really quite pathetic when it comes to behavior. We, as in many humans, don’t need an excuse to be cruel. It is in our nature. If you truly observe nature you can see that it is a very brutal environment. We have that same nature within us, positive and negative. I could trudge along on a path that takes me no where, just “Dust In The Wind”, or I can acknowledge my spiritual nature, without the need to yell “My way is the right way”, and try to be something more than nature and science dictate. I believe there is an energy that flows through us and through all existence. It makes no judgments and it holds no right and wrong within it. It simply IS, until we choose to move it one way or the other. I call it spirit. You can call it nothing. It makes no difference. We really have no way of knowing what it will be like when that energy leaves us in death. I believe it mingles with the energy that is around us, call it what you may, but I will always choose to tell a small child that their dead daddy’s spirit is all around them, at all times.

        1. Lionheart says:

          Try telling a child they will go to a hell of burning fire for eternity unless they take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ and accept his grace. Try telling a child their dad is dead and is going to hell because he didn’t accept Jesus so they won’t see them anyway. I know what I’d tell a child Lori and that’s if they REALLY wanted to know. I’d tell them what every human being “really” knows and that is that we just don’t know, but many think there is a place to go to after this life is over, and if there is, they’ll be going there. I don’t have a problem comforting a child telling them that their daddy will always be with them with the memories they have and things he has left behind.

          Yes, science has caused atrocities, mostly inadvertently, but for the most part it has saved lives. Religion on the other hand has been more brutal. The christian god for example, if its to be believed, destroyed every human being (that’s men, women, children and babies), animals, etc, on the face of the planet, with the exception of one family led by a drunkard, when god drowned them all. This doesn’t even start to include the genocide of others that have died in the name of religion and the “spirit” they followed. And this is just the christian god. Draft into that calculation the gods of the Aztecs, Tolteks and Maya, and many others man has created. I think you’ll find that science has been a far greater help to mankind than religion. You rely on it today by posting to this website. You’ll rely on it to get home, and to eat your food, and to take your body waste away when you go to the toilet.

          Thank goodness for science!

          1. Michelle Teeter says:

            As an atheist I always let my kids know what religious people believed. Jewish, Christian, Islam, pagan, the list goes on. I don’t think it is wrong to say our loved ones are always with us. They are. Every time I hear my daughters shuffling their feet I hear my grandma say “Pick up your feet” whiteout fail she is always there. Telling a child you will burn for eternity if you do not accept Christ as your savior is not only cultish but abusive. My kids are now grown and are all nonbelievers. They listen to science. More people have been killed in the name of god than the name of science.

          2. Lori Mongillo says:

            I can’t argue with you there. I’d always choose science over Christianity. I’d always choose science over many forms of fundamentalist paganism. Many of them have the attitude they they have all the answers as well. I am fortunate in the I circle with a lady who’s views are similar to my own. So we support each other in our journeys. Unfortunately, we can’t fix the whole ball of wax. We can only fix our own perceptions and attitudes.
            And telling a child they are going to hell is not something most parents do, even in Christian households. But I do understand your hostility. I get angry too.

          3. Lori Mongillo says:

            Michelle… projecting our own beliefs or non-beliefs on our children is what parents always seem to do, consciously or unconsciously. Guiding them in humane and respectful practices is essential and making them aware of practices that can harm them is also essential, but not what you just perceive as harmful. We inject our children with a multitude of unnecessary fears, though we rarely admit to it. Science, at the present time seems to be a wonderful thing, but we really don’t know what effects all this wonderful technology will have on our kids. Parents frequently use it to keep them entertained without boundaries. It keeps them out of their hair and these are parents from all walks of life. The influences of social media is also opening up some questionable activity, such as bullying. They become desperate to have the media make them feel good about themselves. I don’t disagree that science is a great thing, medically and informatively, but acknowledging or denying ones spiritual nature is personal and should not be influenced by anyone.

          4. Michelle Teeter says:

            Lori I agree we do tend to do that. My husband is a believer I am not. I’ve always told my kids I’m am probably more agnostic since scientifically I can’t prove something does not exist therefore I must concede the fact that a god(s) do exist. Deep down I don’t really believe though. I wish I did.

            Fact is many Christians DO tell their kids they will go do hell Fact! We are raised being told We MUST accept Chris as our savior or we burn. Catholic’s Southern Baptists fire and brimstone. I won’t speak to Judaism or Islam but Christian I was privy to that life. I know what was drilled in to my head. Burning for all eternity. Lakes of fire. Demons tearing at my soul. Yes Christian children are to we will burn.

            The world is full of dangers. My kids are 26,22, and 21. They are for the most part grown.

          5. Lori Mongillo says:

            Michelle.. I moved from CT to TN 3 years ago. It’s quite a different world here, but I love it. It seems there’s a church every 200 feet. The bible thumpers are the norm, though I haven’t encountered it negatively yet. Many of the kids here rebel against their Christian up bringing. So, yes they are being told they will be dammed if they don’t get right with the lord. It’s a tough thing for them. My husband is a progressive Christian so he has no problem with my being Pagan. I hope your kids are all happy. Blessed be!

        2. Michelle Teeter says:

          Lori I’ve lived in the same town my entire life. A couple years ago we moved out of the big city to the burbs because of violence. People are more conservative out here. But my city was and is VERY Catholic.
          My kids seem to be happy. They are in an Inbetween part of life. They are trying to leave home and have a life of their own so that is a difficult part of life. But all in all they seem happy. Struggle is good.

        3. Tom says:

          Lori…i agree with what you believe about the universal energy…in my opinion, Lionheart prefers to make the discussion into a lecture of self-righteousness, which, unfortunately, is an ego position…in my opinion, people who argue that death ends everything, are simply arguing that they are afraid to face any kind of judgment of their lives…Peace…Tom

          1. Lionheart says:

            As far as I’m aware I don’t remember saying death ends everything. Just like you Tom, I have no idea if there is some sort of life after death. Some will categorically say there is, but they have no proof. Some will say that faith tells them, which of course is a load of hypothetical rubbish.

            As for saying people who are atheists/agnostics are afraid of facing some type of judgement is also rubbish. Judgement of what? Telling the truth that no one can proove a god exists? Helping people who are suffering because he/she wouldn’t?

            I’ll be the first one to tell any supposed deity, if I met one after death, that he/she is a pathetic, angry, uncaring individual for not stepping in to help men, women, and children from horrific deaths, some of which he/she created.

            Peace and love!

          2. Lori says:

            Tom, I think most people like the whole idea that there may be some form of judgement after death. It gives them a means of thinking that all the evil people in their lives, and in the world, will suffer in death. Though I really can’t say that I know what happens, I don’t think that there is punishment. I don’t think spirit-energy-god actually has a nature of revenge, on our behalf. I see it as a neutral force and won’t be doing anything to the spirit that leaves us to mingle with IT, regardless of what atrocities it has committed as a person, nor do I think it really matters. What happens in death should not be a motivator for being good or bad. The fact that we exist at all, as a person, should motivate us to be the best we can be. It is a truly amazing thing to be who we are. People just don’t appreciate the fact that they have received life. Call it a gift if you like.
            And Lionheart, Personally, with all your macho stuff aside, I think you’d shit a brick if you actually came face to face with the Source. I don’t think it’s up to a Spiritual Creator to bail us out of our messes. It’s up to us to evolve and to rise above the horror stories we create. Humans are so busy judging each other that we can’t see our own BS.

          3. Lionheart says:

            Loti, I was beginning to really like what you were saying until you castigated me. There wasn’t any need for that. I’m sorry if I come across as macho, that’s not my intention at all. I’m just very angry at what the supposed deity, if there is one, has created for us. I don’t think it’s all of mankind’s doing, and even if it was, any deity worthy of the name should be able to intercede, but clearly it isn’t remotely interested, and yet we read of the love it has for all of us. Surely we all know that is utter BS right? Personally, I have more respect for fairies, and I really hope they exist, but unfortunately there’s just as much chance of that as there is for a deity. I am starting to enjoy your posts though, just stay with facts and please keep any prejudicial thoughts you might have about others to yourself.

            Love and peace.

          4. Lori says:

            Lionheart, my comment to you was an attempt at humor. Sorry you took it as prejudicial. And I really don’t understand why you’re so angry at a god that you don’t feel exists. If there is no spirit your anger can only be directed at people, and that’s pretty much a waist of time as well. You can’t change people. You can only change yourself and how you perceive things. There’s nothing wrong with not believing as long as you’re not pushing it on others. The way we look at things is suppose to help us in life. It’s suppose to contribute to our happiness and peace of mind. I promise I won’t try to be funny anymore. I guess I don’t do it well. Blessed be

          5. Lionheart says:

            Totally understood and accepted Lori. I guess I was saying “if” there was a god I’d be angry at it. But I’m not seeing any evidence whatsoever so I guess I have to keep my frustrations of mans inhumanity to man to myself. Fun chatting though!

          6. Lori says:

            I understand your anger and it’s not about keeping what frustrates you to yourself. It’s about how you direct your anger or your love. There are many ways to work with our desires and if we sincerely want to make things better we have to begin by allowing ourselves to see the GOOD along with the bad. We have to figure out how to insert the best of ourselves into hostile situations. Peace to you and thank you for understanding my humor. BB

  31. Tom says:

    Carl…respectfully, God/Universe exists whether you believe it or not…a lack of belief is a position on a karmic path…it is not bad or good; it is simply a path…Peace…Tom

    1. Lionheart says:

      Tom, respectfully, you are living in one of your forms of illusion, which is taking you away from reality.

    2. Lionheart says:

      Tom, there you go again making your illusionary assumptions saying that God exists. Yes, we know for a certainty that the universe exists but for some strange reason you like to slide in there a deity as though you have some proof.

      Saying things like “a lack of belief is a position on a karmic path” is again a statement you obviously cannot verify. They are just words that you like to use as though you are some sort of authority on a speciality of cosmic/etheric knowledge that no one else is party to, or can verify.

      So, bottom line is, through science we know the universe exists. Everything else is just speculation, which faith cannot scientifically veriify, and you know it.

      Peace and love.

      1. Tom says:

        Lionheart…i respect your right to your opinions, but science will never prove the entirety of the universe exists…it can not…and, for clarity, i see no difference between God and Universe…this is semantics…lastly, as i have said before, there is no requirement that science or anything else “prove” God or the Universe exists…time spent on this is better spent being a loving, compassionate, forgiving person…you are free to believe what i write or not; neither of us has to preface our writings by the words “in my opinion”…that is all we can offer, anyway…Peace…Tom

  32. Lori Mongillo says:

    So true, Michelle. If folks would take a look at the background they will see that you are right. I wrote the same thing at the beginning of this blog.

  33. Lester Meredith says:

    By reading thru many of these responses, it saddens me to see so many who not only will not stand up for the Almighty Living God who created us; but denounce Him also. Our founding fathers of this nation, for the most part worshiped God through Jesus the Son. They never intended for there words to be construed to allow demonic, atheistic or other religions to replace Jesus. They meant for us to be able to worship Jesus the way we wanted too.

    1. Michelle Teeter says:

      Our founding fathers, for the most part, were NOT Christians. Do some honest research. In fact, many were deeply offended by Christians.
      You are one of those people who think Christians are the only ones who are ministers. So first learn you American history. Not the lies they taught you in church and school. Second , open your mind and heart to other faiths. Sadly, you will do neither.

      1. Lori Mongillo says:

        You go Michelle!! This guy is soooooo closed minded. it must be difficult to have such tunnel vision. There’s a big wide wonderful world out there filled with all kinds of very cool people and interesting faiths. God is for everyone, not just the bible thumpers.

        1. Michelle Teeter says:

          Thank you I try and respect everyone’s beliefs. I don’t understand treating people badly because they do not share your faith. I have faces a lot of hate in my life. I was raised both Catholic and Jehovah’s Witness. Now I’m an atheist. When I was forced to go door to door as a Witness, I had people spit on me. I was a child. As a Catholic, the Klan burned a cross at my school. As an atheist, people assume I am immoral. When someone finds out I’m atheist they treat me differently or avoid me. I treat others like I want to be treated.
          Everyone has a story the judgemental chose to not listen to that story.

    2. Alicia says:

      You do realize that not all people are Christian, right? This is the problem I have with Christians: they are so arrogant in their beliefs that they refuse to acknowledge that others have different beliefs and that the Christian way is the only way. Sorry, but it is not the only way.

      I refuse to think that there is only ONE faith that is the only way to live. I believe that if someone lives a good life, never hurting anyone else and helping others less fortunate, that person will not suffer whatever “evils” awaits us in the afterlife. I also believe that a mass murderer, who claims Jesus as his savior while sitting on death row, is considered “saved” and will partake in other-worldly rewards. Nope. I refuse to believe that.

      1. michelle says:

        I agree with almost everything you said. I don’t really believe in a heaven or hell. BUT if there is one and a murder is truly sorry I hope he/she finds peace. I heard a religious leader once say that our punishment in the afterlife is our own sins. If we kill someone, we feel the mental and physical pain of what we did. Not just to that person but everyone connected to them i.e. their mothers, fathers, spouses, all whose lives were negatively impacted by our sins. So say Hitler after torturing and killing millions of people, would have to endure all the suffering he caused. It would make for a perfect hell. BUT he said we ALL endure it. Not just the evil. It is our punishment to understand what we did, ON the other hand we also get rewarded but feeling all the love we have spread, I always thought that was the perfect idea.

        IF the only reason you do not rape, murder, or commit other crimes is the hopes of heaven . you are a horrible person.

  34. XaurreauX says:

    Secularism is for grownups. The Arkansas legislature can’t be expected to understand,

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