Taking the oath of citizenship

All prospective U.S. citizens must take an oath as part of the process. Does the phrase “so help me God” belong in it?


Olga Paule Perrier-Bilbo is a French green-card holder on the verge of becoming a full-fledged U.S. citizen. All the paperwork is in order, and there’s just one thing left to do: take the oath of citizenship.

But therein lies the problem.

As an atheist, Perrier-Bilbo is uncomfortable with the phrase “so help me God,” which appears in the oath. Although she was given the choice to use a modified oath and avoid speaking the phrase, Perrier-Bilbo declined, insisting that she didn’t want to feel any “less American” than the millions of other people who have taken the oath.

Instead, she’s filed a federal lawsuit arguing that the inclusion of God in the citizenship oath violates the Constitution and demanding that the phrase be permanently removed.

Her lawyers claim that “the current oath violates the first 10 words of the Bill of Rights, and to participate in a ceremony which violates that key portion of the United States Constitution is not supporting of defending the constitution as the oath demands”.

What’s More American Than Sticking to Your Guns?

Unsurprisingly, news of the lawsuit irked a lot of people. A typical response looked something like this:

“Why should anyone listen to an immigrant complaining about a single optional line in an oath? But that aside, it takes a lot of nerve to take an offer of citizenship and turn it around into a lawsuit against the government. This is America, after all – she should be happy to be here!”

Others came to her defense, however. They point out that in her defiance, Perrier-Bilbo is actually exhibiting quintessential American behavior: a refusal to back down, and a stubborn commitment to the rights bestowed by the constitution. In that sense, they argue, the lawsuit might actually make her more American than your run-of-the-mill citizen.

This commitment to secular ideals highlights an ongoing debate in America over the relationship between religion and government.

Does God Belong in Government?

The lawsuit is far from the first of its kind. America has a long history of legal cases seeking to remove mentions of God or religion from functions of government.

In the early 1960s, mandatory bible readings were banned in public schools. Religious symbols, such as nativity scenes and statues of the Ten Commandments, have largely been outlawed on government property over the years. The words “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance, once obligatory, are now optional.

However, the courts have stopped short of completely cutting ties between government and religion. For example, legal efforts to permanently remove God from the Pledge of Allegiance have proven unsuccessful.

America the Faithful

The country appears to be moving toward a crossroads. The existing links between Christian religious identity and American cultural identity remain intact, but they are showing signs of fraying at the edges. Fewer and fewer people identify as Christian, and those who do are far less likely to attend church on a regular basis than their parents.

Is it only a matter of time before phrases like “under God” and “so help me God” are removed for good? More importantly: is that a goal we should strive for, or do such religious references still have value?

 

123 comments

  1. Barry says:

    In reference to “God” ,who’s or which god are they referring to ?
    It does not have to be a “Christan” good.
    Everyone assumes it is.

    1. Mike says:

      I agree, it is the God they believe in. It may have had a different reference but today it is whatever faith you belong to or maybe even the God within.

      1. Rev paul collins says:

        I agree these people who do not believe in God and taking the citizenship oath are making to much fuss about

        1. David Allen says:

          they are being forced to lie while taking an oath, it’s not reasonable

          1. John says:

            If God is meaningless to him so that part of the earth will be also made English. Why should he care?

      2. Thomas Goodrich says:

        Atheism has NO GOD, this is her complaint she is having to take an oath that she cannot in all HER faith feel right in swearing to even if others have no problem with it – it is still in the document being sworn to even if the option not to repeat the words.

        1. John Owens says:

          Who gives a shit? She’s not even a citizen.

    2. Janet Gilbert says:

      Do not give the oath of Heaven or in God, Jesus said Let your yes be yes and your no be no. So I believe what Jesus said. I no a lot of people will agree this point but it’s in the Bible.

      1. Toad Brown says:

        Then you violated your own vote belief by 42 words. Your answer should have been yes or may.

        The allegiance to swear or affirm to God does not favor any religion over another. Even an atheist establishes some god in their life be it themselves, money, or objects. Their life is defined by a belief in something. So there is a god in their life.

        So do what you may. But when this life is over we will find out who was wrong and who was right. Until then, my right, granted by the same constitution, should carry equal weight. And I believe there is a God and I relish in the opportunity to affirm or swear that allegiance.

        Were it not for the faith in God of our founding fathers (From the writings of Jefferson, he most assuredly believed in a God.) we would have no country. You take God out of this country and you destroy the very thread that wove it. So I will not be silent on this battlefield.

        1. Toad Brown says:

          Silly auto correct. Here’s the first paragraph s it should be.

          Then you violated your own core belief by 42 words. Your answer should have been yea or nay.

        2. Thomas Goodrich says:

          Toad, are you an atheist? Who gave you so much knowledge about their belief system? Just curious.

      2. arawngraalrd says:

        There should be an option of giving Affirmation, for this reason.
        It is for observant christians and jews, that we have the option of Affirmation; it is not for the lawyers or other atheists.

    3. Arlene says:

      It is not just atheists who are uncomfortable with the phrase “under God” being in the pledge. I am a Christian, but for many years have not said the phrase “under God” when I recite the pledge, because I think that phrase has no place in what should be a secular statement. I favored the removal of Bible reading and prayer from schools, and I would favor the removal of “under God” from the pledge. Our national history, as well as the Constitution, are clear about the importance of the separation of church and state.

      1. J says:

        GOD = LOVE.. Should government express any forms of “LOVE”. YES. Should it be described, dictated or itemized out using a given name? NO. Non-egotistical love. is NOT a religion that has a set name.

        1. A Simple American says:

          Thank you J …

          Arlene – if you truly are a Christian – you would think the first thing you would want is help from your God to help HUMANITY — that is HIS calling – so I am very confused by your stance – I am not saying you are shoving your faith in people’s faces – that is a ‘heart’ issue – and each person has to come to grips with their faith (or lack of) … lets not confuse the issue regarding the method..

          So my question – where do you then place God in your life with secular friends – or do you only hangout with ‘Christians’ and just have a commune to where you can only talk about God and no one else — remember — Christ came for the unsaved — not for the saved…

          just something to think about….

    4. John says:

      A belief in God is not religion, therefore the first amendment does not apply. How are you worship God is religion and the government must stay out.

    5. Edwin Pitre says:

      Problably looking for some easy money. Should we erase “In God we trust” from the dollar bills?

      1. Thomas Goodrich says:

        Yes, it shouldn’t be on the dollar bill either. Jesus cast out the money trolls as I recall so why are we saying we trust God on a piece of paper that his “son” did not want in his temple? Does that make amends and hopefully Jesus will have a change of heart?

        1. matt scherer says:

          That is what the United States was built on! IN GOD WE TRUST. Our forefathers are more enlightened than we give them credit for!

  2. Katie L Conner says:

    Some people believe in God or a Goddess. They should be allowed to say it if they wish. Don’t step on other people’s toes while expressing yours. She was given the right to not say it if she wished Her rights were not violated. It wouldn’t have made her any less American. I think this is just a hate baiter trying to take over where they should leave things alone.

  3. Clayton Beardmore says:

    I think Katie is right. This PC stuff has to stop!

    1. Thomas Goodrich says:

      Are Christians making Jesus and God PC items in this world – trying to force a belief system that is not everyone elses? If you believe that Jesus is the only way to “heaven” so be it but stop trying to be PC by changing everyone elses beliefs.

  4. Minister Beau says:

    If you listen to foreign diplomats and presidents, they always refer to the “United States of America” as Washington, D.C. This is because that’s where this corporation exists. Since our Government is simply a corporation, and becoming a citizen of this corporation means you consent to them having jurisdiction over you. It simply means she agrees to being their …..asset? Maybe GOD shouldn’t have a place in this For Profit Corporation! Just a thought!

    I personally think it should stay though, we need GOD more in our lives!

  5. Miranda Allison Young says:

    This is an extremely touchy situation. We will have people attacking it from both ends. I am a Christian. I go to church every Sunday. However, I will never force my beliefs onto anyone else. That would be wrong. Our country contains people from all religions. This is how it should be. To be fair to everyone, we need to keep a middle stance whenever religion and government meet. That will always create problems because no two people see things from the same point of view. We have to make agreements that cover everyone. It takes time and consideration. It requires us to be kind. It is something that we will always have to work out for the best solution for the most people. It is not easy and never will be, but we must continue to do our best.

  6. Alicia says:

    I find it amazing that this woman isn’t even a citizen at this time, but she is well versed in how to sue the government and waste the Court’s time an expense on something that can be solved simply, without going to Court.

    A lawsuit is unnecessary. They offered her a chance to use an alternate oath that omits the “offending” phrase, but that wasn’t good enough. She’s taking an oath of citizenship, just like every other new citizen, so how does this make her less “American” because she is using an alternate oath? She doesn’t want to be forced to take the oath mentioning a god she doesn’t believe in, however, she finds nothing wrong with forcing others, who DO believe in a god, to eliminate the phrase as well. This is hypocrisy at its best.

    I don’t recall anyone else having this issue. Most of the time, the oath of citizenship is given to many people at once. What is stopping her, or anyone else, to leave out the “dreaded” word “god” and replace it with something that she feels is appropriate for her? This is the same argument as “under god” in the Pledge. Being Pagan, I do not say that. I will either omit that phrase, or will say “under the gods”. The important part, IMO, is “One Nation…indivisible”.

    1. Mike says:

      “One Nation” where all can live, different colors, race or religion. The freedom to speak or worship your beliefs. The rights bestowed upon us as humans, but yet we are still in invisible chains.
      Have we as humans been a mistake, has the creator(s) regretted what we have become.
      I can’t imagine what will happen when we try to inhabit Mars or another planet. Will we just create another world filled with hate? What will be built first on Mars, a Church, Mosque, Temple? Will there be a war because one was built first and feels they are the ownersof the new world? When will it all end, when will we find what the creators intended or are we just a failed experiment.

    2. Thomas Goodrich says:

      Why does everyone associate “suing” with expectations of getting big $$$$$$$$? I don’t recall reading anything about suing for money – just suing for something that she feels is an INJUSTICE.

  7. Chuck says:

    Political correctness is a form of social engineering, or mass psychology. It is part of a much larger plan to transform the Earth into a One World Dictatorship (under Satan). Currently, we refer to this as “Globalism”.

    Some time ago there was a concerted effort by money powers that be to move the United States in a direction where we stopped investigating the threat of Communism. For those who don’t know, Communism was funded by the richest men in the world in order to create a centralized society that the 1% (through government) essentially control the world. Most of what funded the Communist Revolution came directly from Wall Street, and currently comes from the US Federal Reserve, which is in fact a private bank….yes, our income tax props up Communism and has for many years.

    Using Communism, these wealthy elites brought all of Russia & China (as well as the handful of smaller nations) directly under one solid control. Later, they changed the name to socialism, which they used to create the European Union and African Union. The ultimate goal is to turn the entire globe into a handful of Unions, that would make up One World Satanic Dictatorship.

    Religion, culture and family unit (nuclear family) are the enemies of this system. This is why Russia/China were wiped of their Christian/Buddhist freedoms, and their cultures were slowly strangled. Currently in Europe, Islamic immigration is being used to destroy national cultures and family (along with political correctness). America is being attacked now…………

    This is why we have had monuments taken down, language taken out, and the push to eliminate even more American culture/faith……..as well as the traditional family being under attack. Not to mention the use of immigration urged not to assimilate, just as in Europe. Because people with ties to their nation, faith and family are less controllable, and so all trace must be erased from their minds.

    THAT is where all this nonsense comes and stems from.

    1. R.J. says:

      The federal Gov can make Monsanto, big pharma & other select entities, (including copious government operations) immune from lawsuits? Whats the hold up on Saving the courts time buy putting GOD on the immunity list.

      1. R.J. says:

        One nation under what? GOD? GOD = LOVE.

    2. nick kazell says:

      the traditional family IS under attack. just the other month 2 queermos moved in a few houses down. ever since then it’s been physically impossible for me to touch or even look at my wife, i just want men all the time. my daughter asked me for help on her school work and i had to fight so hard no to push her into a woodchipper all because those communist queers. when will their attacks stop?!

      1. Thomas Goodrich says:

        Nick, I am hoping you are full of something that is a close pronunciation of your name – LOL – if not I’d suggest that you get psychotherapy as soon as possible, those poor guys a few doors down don’t need to live that close to a nut case!

        1. John Owens says:

          I think you figured Nick out, Thomas. He’s desperate for it.

  8. John says:

    She was given the option of the abbreviated Pledge. If she wants to become an American Citizen, she should be using the abbreviated version. If that doesn’t suit her, then she should just pack up and go back to her home country. I apologize if I offend anyone, but she is the one that wants to become a citizen, we didn’t choose her to become one. She has to follow other laws. If she objects to them, will she just sew her way through life? I think not. Either take the abbreviated oath or don’t become a citizen.

    1. Chuck says:

      Exactly John………the first thing a wanna be citizen does is cause a problem at their own swearing in???!!!………… Go HOME ingrate! And if youre an atheist, what do you care if youre mentioning something you don’t believe exists???

      1. fastracs says:

        I think he should not become a citizen of a God fearing Country. Let him meet his maker in Hell.

        1. Erik J Meyer says:

          isn’t his maker the same as ours and yours?

    2. Jessica says:

      I soooo agree with U !!!!!

    3. Tom says:

      Send her back to France.

    4. Thomas Goodrich says:

      Yup, just what Jesus always taught – “force my beliefs on everyone whether they want it or not”. I have tried to find that order in the book of fairy tales but can’t locate it anywhere.

  9. Robert French says:

    She was given an out and she refused. If she doesn’t like how things are done here, she can always move back to where she came from. What I don’t understand is why the wishes of a few out weighs the wishes of the majority. We see it everyday where someone, (atheists, gays, transgenders), claim that their rights are being violated, files a lawsuit and the liberal courts agree with them. Tell me, how can they have rights that supersedes the rights of another? In this case I’ll pray that this lost soul will turn from the darkness and embrace the Light, who is Jesus Christ.

  10. John Owens says:

    I think she should be deported. Last thing we need is another idiot trying to sue over some frivolous implied oppression. She should go back from whence she came. An oath is an oath, and I’d be willing to bet if she gets angry she curses in the name of some god, so she should have no problem whatsoever swearing by that same god. They gave her an opportunity but obviously that was not the real problem– she applied for the PURPOSE of suing to change OUR country.

    1. Jessica says:

      I soooo agree with U !!!!

    2. nick kazell says:

      “last thing we need is another idiot trying to sue over some frivolous implied oppression”. yeah the christian bakers and florists have taken all those slots. no room left for anyone else to be dumb

      1. John Owens says:

        …not to mention the gay bitches suing.

      2. John Owens says:

        Somebody over-moderating again.

    3. Thomas Goodrich says:

      My native American friends all feel that the White man should return to their father lands and return their country to the rightful owners – got your bag packed?

      1. John Owens says:

        I’m a native American, Thomas. I was born here, like my father, like his father, like his father. I’m as native as it gets. You mean “Earliest Immigrants”. They weren’t any more native than I am. They just immigrated here a lot earlier. They can pack THEIR bags and go back to Japan, Siberia, and Polynesia if they don’t like it here. I like it here, and I’m not trying to make it anymore like the Hell-holes people are coming here from.

        1. Chuck says:

          Well said John Owens!!…. I made a bunch of Native American friends while stationed out West….AWESOME people. And they agreed with what I’m about to say…

          Your average white American came here to ESCAPE the very same powers that are now destroying this country….because they followed us here. The real scum of the Earth……royals, banking elite, etc.

          And btw….. these people are responsible for wiping out Native Americans and slavery, but conveniently blame the other 99% of white Americans for their crimes.

          And this is also why there is an all out war on white Christians in this country….because they know who/what they are dealing with…..the same evil they ran away from by coming here. This evil now masks itself as “Progressive” loving socialism….its anything but!

          I would go as far as to say that European escapees and Natives would have mingled fine together had it not been for the forces of oppression that followed us here.

          1. John Owens says:

            Yep. I think Parson wants them to win.

  11. John Owens says:

    It’s funny, Maher, I get a notice that you said something, but not one letter of anything shows up here when I come to look. But, in response to your last comment, Trump won’t be out until 2024. Get used to it.

    1. Jessica says:

      I disagree with U on THAT !!!

      1. John Owens says:

        That’s okay, Jessica. We’ll get eight years of Trump, anyway.

  12. Mark says:

    Is this an example of the “Best and Brightest” immigrants Trump was talking about?

  13. RUTH says:

    What is happening with this beautiful country!? This lady should be denied citizenship at once, and sent back to France.
    Nobody forced her to come to this country, or to become a citizen.
    She was given a choice, she did not accept it, so she has the nerve to sue and spend our money!!
    If there is a path to accomodate the wording, she should take that. The mayority in this country believes in God, therefore the Oath should NOT be changed.

    1. Annette says:

      If the majority of people jump off a bridge I hope you follow them. The majority of the people believe in many forms of religion not Christianity. If the government said all citizens must be Methodist (or any one) religion and we are forbidden to worship any other or we would be imprisoned how exactly would that make you feel? That IS the direction the United States is headed.

      1. John Owens says:

        Your last statement here is insane. Stereotypical hyperbolic hysteria. No one oppressed that French woman. She’s just being stupid.

    2. Jessica says:

      I sooo Agree with U !!!!

    3. D. Miller says:

      Thank you, I so agree.

  14. James says:

    When things are knitpicked this closely only means one thing. People don’t have enough to do. Usually the lazy people seat around finding things to get emotional and offended over. I say “you aren’t that important!” get over yourself. Get a job that challenges your body and mind then be happy when you accomplish good things. No one comes out in the country to find me and tell me what to believe or that I offend them with my flags, pledges, songs, groups I associate with, etc. They need to mind their own business and such it up. Now move on!

  15. TABurley says:

    Seems to me that God is just an empty term to her. So why object, and deny to those what would otherwise add meaning to the oath? This seems to be the paradox that atheists face. What are they objecting to? I don’t object to people pursuing the Loch Ness Monster or Sasquatch.

  16. Annette says:

    Absolutely yes it should be removed. It should also be removed from the Pledge of Allegence too. We are “One nation indivisible”. Under god can be left out and it has just as much more to me if not more so to me. I agree it should be removed from all government. The United States was founded on freedom of religion. I am Wiccan. I believe in a higher power, I respect ALL religions. More and more it feels like we are loosing our rights to freedom of religion and as a Wiccan this frightens me

    1. John Owens says:

      “More and more it feels like we are loosing our rights to freedom of religion and as a Wiccan this frightens me?” Those pledges and oaths have not changed since before anyone on this blog was born and you are saying MORE AND MORE? Exactly how is it MORE AND MORE?

      1. william says:

        “In 1954, at President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s urging, the Congress legislated that “under God” be added, making the pledge read: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

        Only 63 years ago. There’s surely more than a few people on this blog over that age.

      2. John Owens says:

        Thank you for making my point, William. How is it MORE AND MORE?

        1. william says:

          I did not make your point.

          You said those pledges have not changed since before anyone on this blog was born.

          I was showing that you are most likely wrong about that.

          That change was made as a reaction to the “Red Scare”.

          What will we do now that the ultra religious are in power and so many are scared of big bad Sharia Law for example? Only time will tell.

          Often times we don’t see these things happening until they’ve already happened.

          1. John Owens says:

            You did make my point. You said those pledges have been in place for 63 years, so the hysterical woman saying MORE AND MORE is absolutely just being a drama queen.

    2. Jessica says:

      I can see ur point but GOD must remain !!!! or we all shall fall !!!!

  17. rebadams7 says:

    We have already solve this problem by offering an alternative version of the oath for those who do not wish to say under God . But, let’s face it we believe the chain of our rights were :God , us and then to the government. That is how our country is set up – if you can’t accept that then perhaps you do not wish to not be a citizen . We’re not saying what that God is – with her at supreme bearing being a spark in the universe or whatever but basically we are saying from whence we came and then we take that which we have received and delve them onto the government . We do not pull our rights from the government, it is the reverse, we give some. The consent of the governed This is pc gobbledegook for publicity. Wonder who is funding this ridiculous lawsuit?

    1. John Owens says:

      Good question, reb

  18. rabbi jim says:

    Yes, I think that statement should be removed from all oaths. God should be mentioned only in regards to references to faith. Lets keep God pure. Also, the statement ‘ in God we trust ‘ should be removed from all currency, as well, for the same reason. Shalom and have a wonderful day!

    1. Jessica says:

      If GOD goes we all fall !!!!

      1. Thomas Goodrich says:

        GOD falls only if YOU loose YOUR FAITH – not if a few references to him/her are removed from all government (we the people) oaths, currency and buildings. We the people are all inclusive not discriminated against by “Christians and God fearing followers”. SO KEEP YOUR FAITH JESSICA and let the rest of us follow ours.

  19. Brian H Davies JP. CMC. says:

    For goodness sake, if she is one hundred percent committed to becoming a citizen, then just do it, if not catch the next plane back to France. Why is it that immigrants want to change a country’s laws just to suit them, if America is where you want to live, research the laws of the land before applying for a Green Card. There is a very simple way to alter the phrasing that will appeal to all beliefs.
    In my God and Country I offer my trust!

    1. Jessica says:

      YESSSS !!!! GOD Must Stay !!!

  20. jack says:

    If you don’t believe in GOD and Country then they should stay out of America after all that is one of the main reasons for America being. For Religious rights and freedom to say and have freedom of speech and religion ….. If you are a non believer then either shut up or get out……

  21. Audie Mae Parker Durand says:

    At 79 years of age, I do remember the inclusion of the phrase “under God” to the pledge of allegiance. Some decades later Red Skelton made a statement showing the meaning of our pledge. Look it up for a realistic impression.
    As to this immigrants lawsuit:
    Dear child ( and others who profess to atheism), what did you try to leave behind? And where do you think you will be eternally?
    I am a believer that these are questions every person must ask eventually. The answers, though, have to come from some source other than one’s self. Lean not unto your own understanding!

  22. Amber Fry says:

    Honestly, this country was built upon the idea of a separation of church and state. That should be upheld. Keep religious convictions personal and private. Love and cherish them. But give government the freedom to be for all people, not just religious people.

    1. John Owens says:

      Actually, our government is for everyone, not just the religious. Just because this moronic French-woman is suing doesn’t mean anyone did anything wrong.

      1. Thomas Goodrich says:

        John, you seem to be very judgmental of others, it is sad when we have to resort to calling others derogatory names. God bless you.

        1. John Owens says:

          Thomas, it seems very judgmental of you to call me judgmental. The fact is, we all have opinions, and I am not ashamed of mine, as they are very well grounded in fact, observation, thought, and experience. I did not call the French woman a name. Moronic is an adjective, like French, like judgmental, and YES, she is doing something wrong. This is frivolous and she is a non-citizen and should have no right to sue at all regarding this oath.

  23. Carole Lynn Steiner says:

    HE is the one who should be removed!!!!! Send the bum back. He came here knowing this. If he wants change, go back and try to change FRance.

  24. Chaplain Bill says:

    For me as I look around the world there are numerous people who want to join our club, Citizens of the USA, and if they do not like us as we are they can stay home. I went to a Catholic University, I am not Catholic and I disagree with much of their teaching, but I did not march around protesting and filing suit for them to change. Diversity has its very good points but honestly I am tired of those who want the tyranny of the minority.

    1. John Owens says:

      Well-reasoned comment, Bill. I feel very much the same.

    2. Thomas Goodrich says:

      Chaplain Bill, I am a bit confused, you say diversity has its very good points but you feel that forcing religious beliefs (Judaism or Christianity or any other belief system) on everyone else is just plain ok? What ever happened to plain old freedom of choice in this country?

      1. A Simple American says:

        That freedom comes when you deserve to have the freedom – why are you cowing down to someone who is not vested in your country – are you really so easily willing to lay down your values / your heritage / ignore the lives of your ancestors to satisfy a woman who wants to come here but only in her terms?

        Yeah… I want to be a part of your family, but because I don’t believe in anything – I don’t have to adhere to your family moral values because its not based on anything that I believe in…

        Again, just so confused in your philosophy — … where’s the pride for you , your children (if any), your family, you future ?

  25. Erik J Meyer says:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.

    “establishment”, I believe is the key word here. The word “God” can mean nearly anything from the perspective of the reader. The word “god” in the oath does not refer directly to any religious establishment. Therefore one could argue it can be in the oath, without it being unconstitutional. Though I see absolutely no reason to reference any deity to become a citizen of the USA…and if you were an agnostic or atheist then the words would hold no meaning. And of course feel free to practice any religion you wish.

  26. Harlan Gilbert says:

    Perhaps we should remove the word French from our language…and while we’re at it put them on the DO NOT COME TO THE U.S. list as well.

  27. Erik J Meyer says:

    Has everyone here taken the same oath? Or perhaps made an oath toward something they do not believe in? Due to our constitutional rights of liberty, and though many of us have our own personal relationships with our own perspectives of “God”, Why should anyone have to swear on oath to God to become a citizen of the USA?

  28. Don Tyndall says:

    The United States of America was founded and established with God’s guidance.
    If someone from this country wanted to become a citizen of another, would that person have the “right” to demand from that country that it remove from their oath, anything they deemed offensive? I think not.
    Become a citizen first. Then we’ll talk. But to do that you must speak the words. And if you don’t recite it correctly, are you legally a citizen?
    Think about it!
    God Bless America!

    1. Erik J Meyer says:

      Or from other perspectives, Gods Bless America. The question still stands. Why should one have to swear an oath that has to do with something they don’t believe in…and the reject it as soon as they are a citizen? It seems so silly. Feel free to believe in god..any god, or gods. But why swear an oath that one doesn’t believe
      in. What happens to the rest of the oath? Does this person the reject the rest of the words as well? Our government was founded by quite a few that wanted to escape such dogmatic rule.

  29. Rev. Ned says:

    “So help me God”, based on all the separation of church and state stuff out there should be dropped. If you disagree with this, READ the Constitution. That said, taxing churches (they ARE businesses) should not be seen as a violation of the “anti-establishment clause”. Their business is selling the hope of eternal life. If you think of the Catholic Church as a business with the Pope as CEO. A whole lot becomes clear.

  30. A Simple American says:

    Why has our country become so forgetful of where we have been – the struggles that this country has endured to become ‘free’ — God was a focal point of that whole movement … and if you want to make God your own god – then so be it … Its really sad how we have become a ‘priviledged people’ that everyone wants to change everything to satisfy everything for everybody…

    We have lost sight of our past / its all about the now / and have we truly thought about what our country will look like in the future if we move away from ‘God / Yahweh’? Lord of the Flies I say — we just move from one MOB issue to another MOB issue – without a standard foundation of love and hope in something ‘greater’ than ourselves….

    Please continue to pray for our country and continue to share HIS love with people who don’t know HIM… pray hearts will feel HIS love & care & concern & desire to embrace their life — through you.

  31. Bill Fox says:

    I keep my eyes open during prayers. If you hate God, don’t take the oath and don’t become a citizen. That’s the honest thing to do. Or, just don’t repeat those words in the oath. You are going to be miserable as a human being no matter what you do.

  32. Vivian Harris says:

    If you don’t like the way this country is doing things, don’t become a citizen and please leave.

  33. Erik J Meyer says:

    FREEDOM. Free. Liberty. Free from dogmatic rule. Free from those who may tell us what we have to swear an oath to. Freedom. Free from the yoke of tyranny in whatever form it presents itself. The freedom to believe whatever you want. But never. EVER. should we force our beliefs upon another. Free will. A choice. Your choice. Choose. Freedom for ALL. If you are faithful, or if you are not. None of us will ever know until we do or do not confront God, Gods, or oblivion. So again, why should we having thousands upon thousands of beliefs as a nation of free people tell anyone else that is trying to come to a nation where they want to be free and join in a society of free people that they must swear to something they don’t believe in? It is the opposite of Liberty. Is it not?

  34. A Simple American says:

    What does saying ‘So Help Me God’ interfere with your freedom? You are asking for a higher power to help you … what is so wrong about that ? and that is how this country was found and what the founders believed in, and guided our country to be the most amazing country in the world …

    if you don’t want to say or commit to say all that is required / do what is required / adhere to our values and our constitution – then don’t be a citizen – go back to wherever you came from … if you want to be an American Citizen – then do what is required of you to do —

    1. Erik J Meyer says:

      I am a citizen. I have not taken the same oath that is asked of those who are becoming a citizen. Have you? I would assume not because we aren’t required to do so. If you were asked to make an oath to a god, or other such entity that you did not believe in, would you make such an oath? In doing so, would it not be a lie? And if it is a lie, the rest of the oath swearing would become dubious. So why ask someone to swear an oath to something that they don’t believe in?

      We aren’t debating that they shouldn’t swear an oath to our American Nation….why. WHY should i force my belief upon you? I have friends, family, and colleagues of many different faiths. Most of which are American citizens. Some of which are defenders our our country. Some are officers of the law. None of them force their faith beliefs upon me. A discussion of course, can be had freely. To ask someone to swear an oath to something they don’t believe in is ridiculous. They don’t believe in it. Whether or not any of us do. Why would they? Why should they? FREEDOM. Freedom to not believe is just as important as freedom to believe. Free Will. We have the right as a free society to change what is asked/required to do and adhere to. Hence this discussion topic. In many countries we having this discussion might be having armed troops knocking on our doors…simply by opening up this web page. I prefer the freedom part. The part for others not to interfere with what I believe. If YOU and others wish to impart their beliefs upon others…well I say that my beloved country of liberty and freedom is not for YOU. Your country is one that puts faith before his neighbor. Faith before kindness, compassion, and love. This IS my country. It is the greatest because of freedom.

      1. A Simple American says:

        you didn’t have to because that is your God given right – that you ARE a citizen of this country … it sounds like you choose someone else’s freedom than your own country’s citizens.. you have an interesting perspective to defend someone else’s right rather the laws and guidelines of your own country … you seem to be missing the point of why things were done and they way they were done when this country was founded … way back then … look back at history and appreciate where we come from and why we did what we did – and why we continue to do what we do .. its what makes this country sooo amazing ..

        Sad that you can’t open your mind to where your ancestors had to go through yet you are so eager to talk about FREEDOM for whomever that has an issue with YOUR country… pretty sad …

        1. Erik J Meyer says:

          That is exactly my point. If Odin gave me the right to be a citizen of this country and I made every single person swear an oath to him how would you feel? Just fine I suppose? What if that god is Beelzebub that you all new citizens must sear upon. Fine there as well. Allah is fine too correct?…as is any other pantheon….yes? What if I don’t believe in those deities? What if I do not believe in a or The god?

          Our country also evolves continuously. It has, and will continue to do so. It becomes better, and stronger. Or do you perhaps suggest we should eliminate all the Amendments? Or maybe just the ones that suit your perspective.

          ANSWER PLEASE. Would you rather a liar become a citizen. Or a truthful person that takes an oath of loyalty to our country? Yes. Pretty SAD.

          1. A Simple American says:

            Answer – I want a person who wants to come to this amazing country – be a part of the culture / accept where we are – and do their best to improve their life and life of fellow citizens…

            Lets simplify – if someone wants to be a part of your family – you have certain values that make you who you are – and would you just let anyone in that wants to come and tell you how to change your life to make them feel better? The fact that you consider bringing them into your home with your family – should be a point of gratitude and appreciation. Only and only if there are things that would improve your life and help make things better in your household, would a conversation be had – only after they have proven themselves to be worthy to be heard…and that the motive is for the betterment of YOUR Family & Lives you are responsible for…

            And if you do allow people to come and cause chaos in your life – then i am very sorry for you ….

            Its pretty simple here – accept who we are … if not – you should probably re-evaluate why you have an issue with this – or accept it and know its a call to a ‘higher power’ to help you (accept it or don’t have to but its been asked)…

            EVERYONE needs help from a higher power (something bigger than yourself) …

          2. Thomas Goodrich says:

            Erik, not that this is any great consolation, but I’ve read all your posts on this issue and I’m with you 100%. I find it very hard that those claiming to be God fearing and just people; those claiming to be he followers of Christ, can not believe in the separation of church from our government at all levels.

            Praising the Lord or praying to God is all well and good for those that have “the faith” but it is not a mandated command that everyone have the same belief or faith – like wearing two caps – one for government and one for individual belief’s without pushing those personal beliefs on everyone. Government is established to keep an orderly society and religion, if you so believe, is your ticket to heaven or hell, nothing more, nothing less.

  35. Ellen M. Santistevan says:

    The oaths you make between you and God should be private and have no place in our government — not in the pledge of allegiance, not on our currency, not in the oath of any office of public service.

    1. Erik J Meyer says:

      Thanks Ellen. Well put.

      1. Blanca Thompson says:

        Why are you living here?

        1. Erik J Meyer says:

          Do you have a problem with having a private relationship with God? Would you suggest which God or institution of God should be in our government?

          Catholic? Protestant? Eastern Orthodox Church? Anglican? Baptist? Mormonism? Methodists? Pentecosts? Messianic Jews? Judaism? Hasidic Judaism? Rabinic Judaism? Theravada? Mahayana? Sunni Islamism? Shia Islamism? Kharijite Islamism? Naturalism? Mexicayotl? Shamanism? Earth Lodge? Waashat? Asatruism? Laotian folk religion? Gardnerian? American Welsh? Church of the Subgenius? New Reformed Orthodox Order of the Golden Dawn? Celtic Polytheism? Satanism? Which of the above would YOU like making and upholding laws for you? And for all of us? (I know, there are many, many more.)

          Or maybe…just maybe we can keep any and all of these out of government. Perhaps we can govern our own affairs of our own individual beliefs(and pursuits) how we choose. We will all come to an end. And we will all see or not what is at that end.

          Or again, would you like the government to have control of the religion as well?

          I know I don’t want the government telling me who and what I can believe in. My relationship with the Almighty is between myself(maybe my family) and my God.

          1. A Simple American says:

            Hi Erik – I appreciate your point of view – did you ever hear me say that the god they were asking for help was MY GOD ? I believe I am worshipping the same god our finding fathers referenced back then … but in no way shape or form is this line asking for you to convert or call out to MY GOD — I believe its acknowledging a higher power…

            If I were to go to Iran – and they I wanted to be a citizen of Iran – I would consider what are they asking me to do / to be / to follow / to adhere to within their government and institutions in general .. and weigh the choice – can I adhere to the requirements of being called an citizen of Iran or not .. NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO DO THAT – THAT IS A PERSONAL CHOICE.. and if it doesn’t feel like I can do all that is required for me to be an Iranian, then I should probably NOT be a citizen of..

            This is the same situation – we have so few things we ask of people to learn / to do / to be / to contribute that its sad that you and others are so ‘hung up’ on this statement…

            And this has not changed since the beginning and it has brought us to a place where we all can be safe & proud of of, and have the freedom to agree to dis-agree — …

          2. John Owens says:

            The government has never tried to tell you who your God should be.

          3. Carl Elfstrom says:

            Whatever your belief in God or religion when you get to the end you’ll see a light. You better go through it without any reservations or you might find yourself stuck here as a ghost!

  36. Blanca Thompson says:

    Just stop for a moment and think why is it that you or/and your parents came to live here in the United States of America. The Oath has been there even before you were born. There is a way of life here in America and America is what it is because of that Oath, and now you are repealing what it is because you are not a believer?, just look around and see what is happening to those that do not believe in God and act lawless. Some might be millionaires, that is good, but money is not everything, just take a good look at the life of most of them, miserable life. On the other hand, I wonder why would someone leave their country, renounce to his/her citizenship and come to the United States and impose to live the same as he/she lived in the country they do not want anymore? If they didn’t resolve their own situation/problems over there why are they thinking that becoming a US Citizen is going to brighten their life. Stop and meditate on this and think about yourself only. Think about your inner self. Are you happy, no matter what?

  37. Kathy B says:

    Why can’t everyone just stop complaining about everything? I don’t know if people are sue happy, trying to get to be known for something, or what the problem is, but enough already. Say what you want, do what you want, live and let live!!!

  38. Thomas Goodrich says:

    Here is an excellent reference tool between the Bible (Gods word) and Government – not sure I find anything that even comes close to the word “God” being placed in any oath, pledge or mention on money or placed on the walls of a government building – seems to two should not be mixed. http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government

  39. Chuck says:

    Our ancestors came here to declare a break away from the old world of Monarchy, and to declare a freedom of life and ability to worship God as we see fit. Monarchy morphed into socialism and followed us here to undermine our efforts.

    It now promotes BIG government (socialism/monarchy), perversion, infant murder, atheism, and abuse in all forms.

    If you have a disrespect for the founding motives of this country then DO NOT COME HERE!! This place is open to everyone, but it is not FOR everyone.

    Stay in your monarch/socialist nightmare called France. If this woman had ANY respect for the country taking her in, she would just sit there and keep quiet. And if you are atheist, what offense does a reference to God have to you anyway???

    Theres a reason most early Americans were Christians…..because Christ taught that Big Government and false religion were evils. Most of that message has been lost in modern Christians thanks to the “Church”, which is nothing more than Rome disguised. If Rome is what you want in your life, than STAY WHERE YOU CAME FROM!!!

  40. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Theres a reason most early Americans were Christians…

    And, it was so that they would not be put in stocks, in the towne square and be pelted with spoiled fruits and veg…! Remember this?

    http://jesusneverexisted.com

  41. Kevin Von Zell says:

    And. just Who were those heaving all of those spoiled fruits and veg @ their brother & sister Xtians…?

    Why. it was none other than Protestant, Puritanical (Satanical?) Christians…! jesusneverexisted.com

    ALL NEW AMERICANS, THE LAND OF THE FREE, HOME OF THE BRAVE (ENOUGH TO THROW FOOD…?!)

    And, later, to steal blacks, turn them into slavery-honouring believers & to WHIP their backs for any infraction of

    “American Law & Justice… I” mean, who would really WANT to emmigrate from socialism into such a Hateful Nation…?

    Surely not the TRUE natives, who were marched onto reservations, on their own land, and forced to build casinos. 😉

    1. Carl Elfstrom says:

      I especially liked that food fight on Animal House. That was really cool. I haven’t taken part in one yet, but may have tossed a few slices of pizza at CiCi’s when nobody was watching. And you know those tortillas they put on tables in Mexican restaurants. They make really good frisbees. Ole! Furthermore, the black people were’nt stolen from anyone. They didn’t belong to anyone of whom which they could have been stolen from before they became slaves.

  42. Carl Elfstrom says:

    I thought the Bill Of Rights only applied to American citizens. Before she takes that oath and becomes an American citizen she’s not an American citizen and doesn’t have the rights of an American citizen no matter how American she “Seems” to be. There’s no such thing as a seeming American. Either you are or you are’nt. And that should be enough for any judge to laugh her case out of court. An illegal alien suing our government because she doesn’t like the way something is worded? Give me a break! If she won’t take the oath, and doesn’t have a green card.), deport her! We already have plenty of American rebels ( who are citizens and belong here ), and more than plenty illegal aliens who will say or do practically anything to stay here. I bet most of them would’nt even accuse us of sexual harassment for at least forty years. Let’s put her on a small raft, with a paddle and a compass, and see how close she gets to her home country. I bet it won’t be long before she starts praying to God. And if she doesn’t make it blame it on me. They need more ministers in prison.

  43. Carl Elfstrom says:

    Didn’t I hear that G.O.D. means Good Orderly Direction. Who in their right minds could possibly be against that? Besides that, God is’nt a christian word, but is used by multiple religions and spiritual paths to represent the head hauncho who created everything. So why mention Christianity at all? It was only used as a general term to represent a persons higher power. That could be a light bulb, a worm, a piece of candy, a shoe, etc., whatever you believe is more powerful. than you. And who is so saintly that he won’t tell a lie to get what he wants? Damn sure not I. Anyone who was born in a particular country is a native of that country. Anyone who thinks otherwise is illiterate ( functional or otherwise ) like many of the so-called American Indians ( for lack of a better or more suitable name for them ), who walked here from China, probably before the last great flood. That is, the last time this planet shifted on its axis. [That was the demise of Atlantis and Lemuria.] Besides that, the Indians lost the war and don’t have a right to bitch about anything. They can stay on their reservations, and kiss our feet. Losers are second rate citizens in any country where they lost a war.

  44. Carl Elfstrom says:

    I’ve known some Indians too. Some were good and some were bad.I was friends with some of them too. Atleast one of each. One of them had a few scalps hanging from the walls in his teepee.That kind don’t seem to care for women much. I believe they call them burdaches.He’d always smile and wink when someone mentioned sodomy.Despite all of their differences they had two things in common. They all believed in gods, and they all smelled like buffolo shit, which is another good reason why they should stay on those reservations. I’ve heard they like to dry out and season buffolo chips. That’s why they smell that way. They’ll post practically anything on this good, religious, ministers blog, won’t they? Of course, all things done in his name. Amen!

  45. Kevin Von Zell says:

    I only used the word “stolen,” instead of “kidnapped,” because no ransom was asked for nor offered…!

    BTW, have you noticed just how terribly ignorant and hateful these so-called ministers are in actuality?

    TOTALLY SHOCKING & ILLUNINATING; Love Only, Always, Rev. Dr. Kevin von Zell,D.D., MDiv, B.Mus.

    PS Time for most to go back to seminary and learn about the basics of love for other human beings…?

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