Taking the oath of citizenship

All prospective U.S. citizens must take an oath as part of the process. Does the phrase “so help me God” belong in it?


Olga Paule Perrier-Bilbo is a French green-card holder on the verge of becoming a full-fledged U.S. citizen. All the paperwork is in order, and there’s just one thing left to do: take the oath of citizenship.

But therein lies the problem.

As an atheist, Perrier-Bilbo is uncomfortable with the phrase “so help me God,” which appears in the oath. Although she was given the choice to use a modified oath and avoid speaking the phrase, Perrier-Bilbo declined, insisting that she didn’t want to feel any “less American” than the millions of other people who have taken the oath.

Instead, she’s filed a federal lawsuit arguing that the inclusion of God in the citizenship oath violates the Constitution and demanding that the phrase be permanently removed.

Her lawyers claim that “the current oath violates the first 10 words of the Bill of Rights, and to participate in a ceremony which violates that key portion of the United States Constitution is not supporting of defending the constitution as the oath demands”.

What’s More American Than Sticking to Your Guns?

Unsurprisingly, news of the lawsuit irked a lot of people. A typical response looked something like this:

“Why should anyone listen to an immigrant complaining about a single optional line in an oath? But that aside, it takes a lot of nerve to take an offer of citizenship and turn it around into a lawsuit against the government. This is America, after all – she should be happy to be here!”

Others came to her defense, however. They point out that in her defiance, Perrier-Bilbo is actually exhibiting quintessential American behavior: a refusal to back down, and a stubborn commitment to the rights bestowed by the constitution. In that sense, they argue, the lawsuit might actually make her more American than your run-of-the-mill citizen.

This commitment to secular ideals highlights an ongoing debate in America over the relationship between religion and government.

Does God Belong in Government?

The lawsuit is far from the first of its kind. America has a long history of legal cases seeking to remove mentions of God or religion from functions of government.

In the early 1960s, mandatory bible readings were banned in public schools. Religious symbols, such as nativity scenes and statues of the Ten Commandments, have largely been outlawed on government property over the years. The words “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance, once obligatory, are now optional.

However, the courts have stopped short of completely cutting ties between government and religion. For example, legal efforts to permanently remove God from the Pledge of Allegiance have proven unsuccessful.

America the Faithful

The country appears to be moving toward a crossroads. The existing links between Christian religious identity and American cultural identity remain intact, but they are showing signs of fraying at the edges. Fewer and fewer people identify as Christian, and those who do are far less likely to attend church on a regular basis than their parents.

Is it only a matter of time before phrases like “under God” and “so help me God” are removed for good? More importantly: is that a goal we should strive for, or do such religious references still have value?

 

217 comments

  1. Barry says:

    In reference to “God” ,who’s or which god are they referring to ?
    It does not have to be a “Christan” good.
    Everyone assumes it is.

    1. Mike says:

      I agree, it is the God they believe in. It may have had a different reference but today it is whatever faith you belong to or maybe even the God within.

      1. Rev paul collins says:

        I agree these people who do not believe in God and taking the citizenship oath are making to much fuss about

        1. David Allen says:

          they are being forced to lie while taking an oath, it’s not reasonable

          1. John says:

            If God is meaningless to him so that part of the earth will be also made English. Why should he care?

      2. Thomas Goodrich says:

        Atheism has NO GOD, this is her complaint she is having to take an oath that she cannot in all HER faith feel right in swearing to even if others have no problem with it – it is still in the document being sworn to even if the option not to repeat the words.

        1. John Owens says:

          Who gives a shit? She’s not even a citizen.

          1. j says:

            Who gives a chit? Let me answer that for you… “I DO”.

          2. John Owens says:

            Well congratulations. That makes you a bleeding heart liberal who cares about stuff that is none of their business. Pat yourself on the back.

          3. j says:

            I tell ya, the inventory taking that goes on his these threads. Just because one “cares” It appears phaneron & ego rule ones perspectives. Especially since how one may care. Which side of the fence (if any) one may care to be on is left unstated.

          4. John Owens says:

            The fact that you, j, use the word “phaneron” just shows you are a freaking lib drone, repeating shit because you think it sounds intelligent or meaningful. I pity you.

    2. Janet Gilbert says:

      Do not give the oath of Heaven or in God, Jesus said Let your yes be yes and your no be no. So I believe what Jesus said. I no a lot of people will agree this point but it’s in the Bible.

      1. Toad Brown says:

        Then you violated your own vote belief by 42 words. Your answer should have been yes or may.

        The allegiance to swear or affirm to God does not favor any religion over another. Even an atheist establishes some god in their life be it themselves, money, or objects. Their life is defined by a belief in something. So there is a god in their life.

        So do what you may. But when this life is over we will find out who was wrong and who was right. Until then, my right, granted by the same constitution, should carry equal weight. And I believe there is a God and I relish in the opportunity to affirm or swear that allegiance.

        Were it not for the faith in God of our founding fathers (From the writings of Jefferson, he most assuredly believed in a God.) we would have no country. You take God out of this country and you destroy the very thread that wove it. So I will not be silent on this battlefield.

        1. Toad Brown says:

          Silly auto correct. Here’s the first paragraph s it should be.

          Then you violated your own core belief by 42 words. Your answer should have been yea or nay.

        2. Thomas Goodrich says:

          Toad, are you an atheist? Who gave you so much knowledge about their belief system? Just curious.

      2. arawngraalrd says:

        There should be an option of giving Affirmation, for this reason.
        It is for observant christians and jews, that we have the option of Affirmation; it is not for the lawyers or other atheists.

      3. Kevin Von Zell says:

        Rev. John Owens, It IS a nice change of pace to see you give someones else shit for a CHANGE other than your trolling of me… with your hench-lady alongside of you, riding side saddle on Jesus’ white, flying horsey.

        Rev. Dr. Kevin von, Zell, D.D., M.Div, B.Mus.

        PS Ah, sweet memories… of when thou pitiest ME…! Get thee behind me, John Owen is all Jesus has to say.

        1. John Owens says:

          You only call it trolling because you know I am correct.

    3. Arlene says:

      It is not just atheists who are uncomfortable with the phrase “under God” being in the pledge. I am a Christian, but for many years have not said the phrase “under God” when I recite the pledge, because I think that phrase has no place in what should be a secular statement. I favored the removal of Bible reading and prayer from schools, and I would favor the removal of “under God” from the pledge. Our national history, as well as the Constitution, are clear about the importance of the separation of church and state.

      1. J says:

        GOD = LOVE.. Should government express any forms of “LOVE”. YES. Should it be described, dictated or itemized out using a given name? NO. Non-egotistical love. is NOT a religion that has a set name.

        1. A Simple American says:

          Thank you J …

          Arlene – if you truly are a Christian – you would think the first thing you would want is help from your God to help HUMANITY — that is HIS calling – so I am very confused by your stance – I am not saying you are shoving your faith in people’s faces – that is a ‘heart’ issue – and each person has to come to grips with their faith (or lack of) … lets not confuse the issue regarding the method..

          So my question – where do you then place God in your life with secular friends – or do you only hangout with ‘Christians’ and just have a commune to where you can only talk about God and no one else — remember — Christ came for the unsaved — not for the saved…

          just something to think about….

    4. John says:

      A belief in God is not religion, therefore the first amendment does not apply. How are you worship God is religion and the government must stay out.

    5. Edwin Pitre says:

      Problably looking for some easy money. Should we erase “In God we trust” from the dollar bills?

      1. Thomas Goodrich says:

        Yes, it shouldn’t be on the dollar bill either. Jesus cast out the money trolls as I recall so why are we saying we trust God on a piece of paper that his “son” did not want in his temple? Does that make amends and hopefully Jesus will have a change of heart?

        1. matt scherer says:

          That is what the United States was built on! IN GOD WE TRUST. Our forefathers are more enlightened than we give them credit for!

          1. J says:

            GOD = LOVE (Toggle the word in all one reads). It may offer a clearer meaning to ones interpretation. IN LOVE WE TRUST… Government offers marriage / love type contracts. Shall we eliminate them also?

  2. Katie L Conner says:

    Some people believe in God or a Goddess. They should be allowed to say it if they wish. Don’t step on other people’s toes while expressing yours. She was given the right to not say it if she wished Her rights were not violated. It wouldn’t have made her any less American. I think this is just a hate baiter trying to take over where they should leave things alone.

  3. Clayton Beardmore says:

    I think Katie is right. This PC stuff has to stop!

    1. Thomas Goodrich says:

      Are Christians making Jesus and God PC items in this world – trying to force a belief system that is not everyone elses? If you believe that Jesus is the only way to “heaven” so be it but stop trying to be PC by changing everyone elses beliefs.

  4. Minister Beau says:

    If you listen to foreign diplomats and presidents, they always refer to the “United States of America” as Washington, D.C. This is because that’s where this corporation exists. Since our Government is simply a corporation, and becoming a citizen of this corporation means you consent to them having jurisdiction over you. It simply means she agrees to being their …..asset? Maybe GOD shouldn’t have a place in this For Profit Corporation! Just a thought!

    I personally think it should stay though, we need GOD more in our lives!

  5. Miranda Allison Young says:

    This is an extremely touchy situation. We will have people attacking it from both ends. I am a Christian. I go to church every Sunday. However, I will never force my beliefs onto anyone else. That would be wrong. Our country contains people from all religions. This is how it should be. To be fair to everyone, we need to keep a middle stance whenever religion and government meet. That will always create problems because no two people see things from the same point of view. We have to make agreements that cover everyone. It takes time and consideration. It requires us to be kind. It is something that we will always have to work out for the best solution for the most people. It is not easy and never will be, but we must continue to do our best.

  6. Alicia says:

    I find it amazing that this woman isn’t even a citizen at this time, but she is well versed in how to sue the government and waste the Court’s time an expense on something that can be solved simply, without going to Court.

    A lawsuit is unnecessary. They offered her a chance to use an alternate oath that omits the “offending” phrase, but that wasn’t good enough. She’s taking an oath of citizenship, just like every other new citizen, so how does this make her less “American” because she is using an alternate oath? She doesn’t want to be forced to take the oath mentioning a god she doesn’t believe in, however, she finds nothing wrong with forcing others, who DO believe in a god, to eliminate the phrase as well. This is hypocrisy at its best.

    I don’t recall anyone else having this issue. Most of the time, the oath of citizenship is given to many people at once. What is stopping her, or anyone else, to leave out the “dreaded” word “god” and replace it with something that she feels is appropriate for her? This is the same argument as “under god” in the Pledge. Being Pagan, I do not say that. I will either omit that phrase, or will say “under the gods”. The important part, IMO, is “One Nation…indivisible”.

    1. Mike says:

      “One Nation” where all can live, different colors, race or religion. The freedom to speak or worship your beliefs. The rights bestowed upon us as humans, but yet we are still in invisible chains.
      Have we as humans been a mistake, has the creator(s) regretted what we have become.
      I can’t imagine what will happen when we try to inhabit Mars or another planet. Will we just create another world filled with hate? What will be built first on Mars, a Church, Mosque, Temple? Will there be a war because one was built first and feels they are the ownersof the new world? When will it all end, when will we find what the creators intended or are we just a failed experiment.

    2. Thomas Goodrich says:

      Why does everyone associate “suing” with expectations of getting big $$$$$$$$? I don’t recall reading anything about suing for money – just suing for something that she feels is an INJUSTICE.

  7. Chuck says:

    Political correctness is a form of social engineering, or mass psychology. It is part of a much larger plan to transform the Earth into a One World Dictatorship (under Satan). Currently, we refer to this as “Globalism”.

    Some time ago there was a concerted effort by money powers that be to move the United States in a direction where we stopped investigating the threat of Communism. For those who don’t know, Communism was funded by the richest men in the world in order to create a centralized society that the 1% (through government) essentially control the world. Most of what funded the Communist Revolution came directly from Wall Street, and currently comes from the US Federal Reserve, which is in fact a private bank….yes, our income tax props up Communism and has for many years.

    Using Communism, these wealthy elites brought all of Russia & China (as well as the handful of smaller nations) directly under one solid control. Later, they changed the name to socialism, which they used to create the European Union and African Union. The ultimate goal is to turn the entire globe into a handful of Unions, that would make up One World Satanic Dictatorship.

    Religion, culture and family unit (nuclear family) are the enemies of this system. This is why Russia/China were wiped of their Christian/Buddhist freedoms, and their cultures were slowly strangled. Currently in Europe, Islamic immigration is being used to destroy national cultures and family (along with political correctness). America is being attacked now…………

    This is why we have had monuments taken down, language taken out, and the push to eliminate even more American culture/faith……..as well as the traditional family being under attack. Not to mention the use of immigration urged not to assimilate, just as in Europe. Because people with ties to their nation, faith and family are less controllable, and so all trace must be erased from their minds.

    THAT is where all this nonsense comes and stems from.

    1. R.J. says:

      The federal Gov can make Monsanto, big pharma & other select entities, (including copious government operations) immune from lawsuits? Whats the hold up on Saving the courts time buy putting GOD on the immunity list.

      1. R.J. says:

        One nation under what? GOD? GOD = LOVE.

    2. nick kazell says:

      the traditional family IS under attack. just the other month 2 queermos moved in a few houses down. ever since then it’s been physically impossible for me to touch or even look at my wife, i just want men all the time. my daughter asked me for help on her school work and i had to fight so hard no to push her into a woodchipper all because those communist queers. when will their attacks stop?!

      1. Thomas Goodrich says:

        Nick, I am hoping you are full of something that is a close pronunciation of your name – LOL – if not I’d suggest that you get psychotherapy as soon as possible, those poor guys a few doors down don’t need to live that close to a nut case!

        1. John Owens says:

          I think you figured Nick out, Thomas. He’s desperate for it.

  8. John says:

    She was given the option of the abbreviated Pledge. If she wants to become an American Citizen, she should be using the abbreviated version. If that doesn’t suit her, then she should just pack up and go back to her home country. I apologize if I offend anyone, but she is the one that wants to become a citizen, we didn’t choose her to become one. She has to follow other laws. If she objects to them, will she just sew her way through life? I think not. Either take the abbreviated oath or don’t become a citizen.

    1. Chuck says:

      Exactly John………the first thing a wanna be citizen does is cause a problem at their own swearing in???!!!………… Go HOME ingrate! And if youre an atheist, what do you care if youre mentioning something you don’t believe exists???

      1. fastracs says:

        I think he should not become a citizen of a God fearing Country. Let him meet his maker in Hell.

        1. Erik J Meyer says:

          isn’t his maker the same as ours and yours?

    2. Jessica says:

      I soooo agree with U !!!!!

    3. Tom says:

      Send her back to France.

    4. Thomas Goodrich says:

      Yup, just what Jesus always taught – “force my beliefs on everyone whether they want it or not”. I have tried to find that order in the book of fairy tales but can’t locate it anywhere.

    5. Rella says:

      I absolutely agree John. Each country has it’s own laws of the land that the people need to adhere too. If there weren’t laws, then the people would all be running amuck and there would be nothing but havoc.
      I believe we all have the right to live anywhere on this earth but if one chooses to live in another land from which they were born- then one needs to abide by the laws of that land and their traditions – otherwise stay put. I question why this person wants to be here in the first place. We all have different perspectives/views. Haven’t we learned anything from the Babylonian times??
      I don’t care if one believes in God or not, that is a personal choice as it’s a personal choice to want to become an American citizen- But don’t come here with the intent to want to change what our forefathers have created.
      The United States was built by foreigners whom came to this land and it’s those foreigners whom fought wars, any many died for the freedom of the people. Another reason why the constitution was created for “ALL” the people of this land. Times do change but the basics of the constitution are sound.
      It’s the People whom need to wake up and realize that you alwsys have the Frredom to Choose – for yourself – so don’ make another wrong for why you may feel the way you do – get over yourself already and just live your life in Harmony and Love, while you abide by laws of your land – and then, you may find the Peace that is within you.

  9. Robert French says:

    She was given an out and she refused. If she doesn’t like how things are done here, she can always move back to where she came from. What I don’t understand is why the wishes of a few out weighs the wishes of the majority. We see it everyday where someone, (atheists, gays, transgenders), claim that their rights are being violated, files a lawsuit and the liberal courts agree with them. Tell me, how can they have rights that supersedes the rights of another? In this case I’ll pray that this lost soul will turn from the darkness and embrace the Light, who is Jesus Christ.

  10. John Owens says:

    I think she should be deported. Last thing we need is another idiot trying to sue over some frivolous implied oppression. She should go back from whence she came. An oath is an oath, and I’d be willing to bet if she gets angry she curses in the name of some god, so she should have no problem whatsoever swearing by that same god. They gave her an opportunity but obviously that was not the real problem– she applied for the PURPOSE of suing to change OUR country.

    1. JOHN MAHER says:

      HEY BOOGER I FORGOT to MENTION that SOON ORANGUtRUMP DOTAR will be OUT, SO U WILL have the OPPERTUNITY to ATTEND YOUR MENTAL INCAPACITY CLINIC AGAIN, FREE of CHARGE,VILLAGE IDIOT !!!

    2. Jessica says:

      I soooo agree with U !!!!

    3. nick kazell says:

      “last thing we need is another idiot trying to sue over some frivolous implied oppression”. yeah the christian bakers and florists have taken all those slots. no room left for anyone else to be dumb

      1. John Owens says:

        …not to mention the gay bitches suing.

      2. John Owens says:

        Somebody over-moderating again.

    4. Thomas Goodrich says:

      My native American friends all feel that the White man should return to their father lands and return their country to the rightful owners – got your bag packed?

      1. John Owens says:

        I’m a native American, Thomas. I was born here, like my father, like his father, like his father. I’m as native as it gets. You mean “Earliest Immigrants”. They weren’t any more native than I am. They just immigrated here a lot earlier. They can pack THEIR bags and go back to Japan, Siberia, and Polynesia if they don’t like it here. I like it here, and I’m not trying to make it anymore like the Hell-holes people are coming here from.

        1. Chuck says:

          Well said John Owens!!…. I made a bunch of Native American friends while stationed out West….AWESOME people. And they agreed with what I’m about to say…

          Your average white American came here to ESCAPE the very same powers that are now destroying this country….because they followed us here. The real scum of the Earth……royals, banking elite, etc.

          And btw….. these people are responsible for wiping out Native Americans and slavery, but conveniently blame the other 99% of white Americans for their crimes.

          And this is also why there is an all out war on white Christians in this country….because they know who/what they are dealing with…..the same evil they ran away from by coming here. This evil now masks itself as “Progressive” loving socialism….its anything but!

          I would go as far as to say that European escapees and Natives would have mingled fine together had it not been for the forces of oppression that followed us here.

          1. John Owens says:

            Yep. I think Parson wants them to win.

  11. John Owens says:

    It’s funny, Maher, I get a notice that you said something, but not one letter of anything shows up here when I come to look. But, in response to your last comment, Trump won’t be out until 2024. Get used to it.

    1. Jessica says:

      I disagree with U on THAT !!!

      1. John Owens says:

        That’s okay, Jessica. We’ll get eight years of Trump, anyway.

  12. Mark says:

    Is this an example of the “Best and Brightest” immigrants Trump was talking about?

  13. RUTH says:

    What is happening with this beautiful country!? This lady should be denied citizenship at once, and sent back to France.
    Nobody forced her to come to this country, or to become a citizen.
    She was given a choice, she did not accept it, so she has the nerve to sue and spend our money!!
    If there is a path to accomodate the wording, she should take that. The mayority in this country believes in God, therefore the Oath should NOT be changed.

    1. Annette says:

      If the majority of people jump off a bridge I hope you follow them. The majority of the people believe in many forms of religion not Christianity. If the government said all citizens must be Methodist (or any one) religion and we are forbidden to worship any other or we would be imprisoned how exactly would that make you feel? That IS the direction the United States is headed.

      1. John Owens says:

        Your last statement here is insane. Stereotypical hyperbolic hysteria. No one oppressed that French woman. She’s just being stupid.

    2. Jessica says:

      I sooo Agree with U !!!!

    3. D. Miller says:

      Thank you, I so agree.

  14. James says:

    When things are knitpicked this closely only means one thing. People don’t have enough to do. Usually the lazy people seat around finding things to get emotional and offended over. I say “you aren’t that important!” get over yourself. Get a job that challenges your body and mind then be happy when you accomplish good things. No one comes out in the country to find me and tell me what to believe or that I offend them with my flags, pledges, songs, groups I associate with, etc. They need to mind their own business and such it up. Now move on!

  15. TABurley says:

    Seems to me that God is just an empty term to her. So why object, and deny to those what would otherwise add meaning to the oath? This seems to be the paradox that atheists face. What are they objecting to? I don’t object to people pursuing the Loch Ness Monster or Sasquatch.

  16. Annette says:

    Absolutely yes it should be removed. It should also be removed from the Pledge of Allegence too. We are “One nation indivisible”. Under god can be left out and it has just as much more to me if not more so to me. I agree it should be removed from all government. The United States was founded on freedom of religion. I am Wiccan. I believe in a higher power, I respect ALL religions. More and more it feels like we are loosing our rights to freedom of religion and as a Wiccan this frightens me

    1. John Owens says:

      “More and more it feels like we are loosing our rights to freedom of religion and as a Wiccan this frightens me?” Those pledges and oaths have not changed since before anyone on this blog was born and you are saying MORE AND MORE? Exactly how is it MORE AND MORE?

      1. william says:

        “In 1954, at President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s urging, the Congress legislated that “under God” be added, making the pledge read: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”

        Only 63 years ago. There’s surely more than a few people on this blog over that age.

      2. John Owens says:

        Thank you for making my point, William. How is it MORE AND MORE?

        1. william says:

          I did not make your point.

          You said those pledges have not changed since before anyone on this blog was born.

          I was showing that you are most likely wrong about that.

          That change was made as a reaction to the “Red Scare”.

          What will we do now that the ultra religious are in power and so many are scared of big bad Sharia Law for example? Only time will tell.

          Often times we don’t see these things happening until they’ve already happened.

          1. John Owens says:

            You did make my point. You said those pledges have been in place for 63 years, so the hysterical woman saying MORE AND MORE is absolutely just being a drama queen.

    2. Jessica says:

      I can see ur point but GOD must remain !!!! or we all shall fall !!!!

  17. rebadams7 says:

    We have already solve this problem by offering an alternative version of the oath for those who do not wish to say under God . But, let’s face it we believe the chain of our rights were :God , us and then to the government. That is how our country is set up – if you can’t accept that then perhaps you do not wish to not be a citizen . We’re not saying what that God is – with her at supreme bearing being a spark in the universe or whatever but basically we are saying from whence we came and then we take that which we have received and delve them onto the government . We do not pull our rights from the government, it is the reverse, we give some. The consent of the governed This is pc gobbledegook for publicity. Wonder who is funding this ridiculous lawsuit?

    1. John Owens says:

      Good question, reb

  18. rabbi jim says:

    Yes, I think that statement should be removed from all oaths. God should be mentioned only in regards to references to faith. Lets keep God pure. Also, the statement ‘ in God we trust ‘ should be removed from all currency, as well, for the same reason. Shalom and have a wonderful day!

    1. Jessica says:

      If GOD goes we all fall !!!!

      1. Thomas Goodrich says:

        GOD falls only if YOU loose YOUR FAITH – not if a few references to him/her are removed from all government (we the people) oaths, currency and buildings. We the people are all inclusive not discriminated against by “Christians and God fearing followers”. SO KEEP YOUR FAITH JESSICA and let the rest of us follow ours.

  19. Brian H Davies JP. CMC. says:

    For goodness sake, if she is one hundred percent committed to becoming a citizen, then just do it, if not catch the next plane back to France. Why is it that immigrants want to change a country’s laws just to suit them, if America is where you want to live, research the laws of the land before applying for a Green Card. There is a very simple way to alter the phrasing that will appeal to all beliefs.
    In my God and Country I offer my trust!

    1. Jessica says:

      YESSSS !!!! GOD Must Stay !!!

  20. jack says:

    If you don’t believe in GOD and Country then they should stay out of America after all that is one of the main reasons for America being. For Religious rights and freedom to say and have freedom of speech and religion ….. If you are a non believer then either shut up or get out……

  21. Audie Mae Parker Durand says:

    At 79 years of age, I do remember the inclusion of the phrase “under God” to the pledge of allegiance. Some decades later Red Skelton made a statement showing the meaning of our pledge. Look it up for a realistic impression.
    As to this immigrants lawsuit:
    Dear child ( and others who profess to atheism), what did you try to leave behind? And where do you think you will be eternally?
    I am a believer that these are questions every person must ask eventually. The answers, though, have to come from some source other than one’s self. Lean not unto your own understanding!

  22. Amber Fry says:

    Honestly, this country was built upon the idea of a separation of church and state. That should be upheld. Keep religious convictions personal and private. Love and cherish them. But give government the freedom to be for all people, not just religious people.

    1. John Owens says:

      Actually, our government is for everyone, not just the religious. Just because this moronic French-woman is suing doesn’t mean anyone did anything wrong.

      1. Thomas Goodrich says:

        John, you seem to be very judgmental of others, it is sad when we have to resort to calling others derogatory names. God bless you.

        1. John Owens says:

          Thomas, it seems very judgmental of you to call me judgmental. The fact is, we all have opinions, and I am not ashamed of mine, as they are very well grounded in fact, observation, thought, and experience. I did not call the French woman a name. Moronic is an adjective, like French, like judgmental, and YES, she is doing something wrong. This is frivolous and she is a non-citizen and should have no right to sue at all regarding this oath.

  23. Carole Lynn Steiner says:

    HE is the one who should be removed!!!!! Send the bum back. He came here knowing this. If he wants change, go back and try to change FRance.

  24. Chaplain Bill says:

    For me as I look around the world there are numerous people who want to join our club, Citizens of the USA, and if they do not like us as we are they can stay home. I went to a Catholic University, I am not Catholic and I disagree with much of their teaching, but I did not march around protesting and filing suit for them to change. Diversity has its very good points but honestly I am tired of those who want the tyranny of the minority.

    1. John Owens says:

      Well-reasoned comment, Bill. I feel very much the same.

    2. Thomas Goodrich says:

      Chaplain Bill, I am a bit confused, you say diversity has its very good points but you feel that forcing religious beliefs (Judaism or Christianity or any other belief system) on everyone else is just plain ok? What ever happened to plain old freedom of choice in this country?

      1. A Simple American says:

        That freedom comes when you deserve to have the freedom – why are you cowing down to someone who is not vested in your country – are you really so easily willing to lay down your values / your heritage / ignore the lives of your ancestors to satisfy a woman who wants to come here but only in her terms?

        Yeah… I want to be a part of your family, but because I don’t believe in anything – I don’t have to adhere to your family moral values because its not based on anything that I believe in…

        Again, just so confused in your philosophy — … where’s the pride for you , your children (if any), your family, you future ?

  25. Erik J Meyer says:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”.

    “establishment”, I believe is the key word here. The word “God” can mean nearly anything from the perspective of the reader. The word “god” in the oath does not refer directly to any religious establishment. Therefore one could argue it can be in the oath, without it being unconstitutional. Though I see absolutely no reason to reference any deity to become a citizen of the USA…and if you were an agnostic or atheist then the words would hold no meaning. And of course feel free to practice any religion you wish.

  26. Harlan Gilbert says:

    Perhaps we should remove the word French from our language…and while we’re at it put them on the DO NOT COME TO THE U.S. list as well.

  27. Erik J Meyer says:

    Has everyone here taken the same oath? Or perhaps made an oath toward something they do not believe in? Due to our constitutional rights of liberty, and though many of us have our own personal relationships with our own perspectives of “God”, Why should anyone have to swear on oath to God to become a citizen of the USA?

  28. Don Tyndall says:

    The United States of America was founded and established with God’s guidance.
    If someone from this country wanted to become a citizen of another, would that person have the “right” to demand from that country that it remove from their oath, anything they deemed offensive? I think not.
    Become a citizen first. Then we’ll talk. But to do that you must speak the words. And if you don’t recite it correctly, are you legally a citizen?
    Think about it!
    God Bless America!

    1. Erik J Meyer says:

      Or from other perspectives, Gods Bless America. The question still stands. Why should one have to swear an oath that has to do with something they don’t believe in…and the reject it as soon as they are a citizen? It seems so silly. Feel free to believe in god..any god, or gods. But why swear an oath that one doesn’t believe
      in. What happens to the rest of the oath? Does this person the reject the rest of the words as well? Our government was founded by quite a few that wanted to escape such dogmatic rule.

  29. Rev. Ned says:

    “So help me God”, based on all the separation of church and state stuff out there should be dropped. If you disagree with this, READ the Constitution. That said, taxing churches (they ARE businesses) should not be seen as a violation of the “anti-establishment clause”. Their business is selling the hope of eternal life. If you think of the Catholic Church as a business with the Pope as CEO. A whole lot becomes clear.

  30. A Simple American says:

    Why has our country become so forgetful of where we have been – the struggles that this country has endured to become ‘free’ — God was a focal point of that whole movement … and if you want to make God your own god – then so be it … Its really sad how we have become a ‘priviledged people’ that everyone wants to change everything to satisfy everything for everybody…

    We have lost sight of our past / its all about the now / and have we truly thought about what our country will look like in the future if we move away from ‘God / Yahweh’? Lord of the Flies I say — we just move from one MOB issue to another MOB issue – without a standard foundation of love and hope in something ‘greater’ than ourselves….

    Please continue to pray for our country and continue to share HIS love with people who don’t know HIM… pray hearts will feel HIS love & care & concern & desire to embrace their life — through you.

  31. Bill Fox says:

    I keep my eyes open during prayers. If you hate God, don’t take the oath and don’t become a citizen. That’s the honest thing to do. Or, just don’t repeat those words in the oath. You are going to be miserable as a human being no matter what you do.

  32. Vivian Harris says:

    If you don’t like the way this country is doing things, don’t become a citizen and please leave.

  33. Erik J Meyer says:

    FREEDOM. Free. Liberty. Free from dogmatic rule. Free from those who may tell us what we have to swear an oath to. Freedom. Free from the yoke of tyranny in whatever form it presents itself. The freedom to believe whatever you want. But never. EVER. should we force our beliefs upon another. Free will. A choice. Your choice. Choose. Freedom for ALL. If you are faithful, or if you are not. None of us will ever know until we do or do not confront God, Gods, or oblivion. So again, why should we having thousands upon thousands of beliefs as a nation of free people tell anyone else that is trying to come to a nation where they want to be free and join in a society of free people that they must swear to something they don’t believe in? It is the opposite of Liberty. Is it not?

  34. A Simple American says:

    What does saying ‘So Help Me God’ interfere with your freedom? You are asking for a higher power to help you … what is so wrong about that ? and that is how this country was found and what the founders believed in, and guided our country to be the most amazing country in the world …

    if you don’t want to say or commit to say all that is required / do what is required / adhere to our values and our constitution – then don’t be a citizen – go back to wherever you came from … if you want to be an American Citizen – then do what is required of you to do —

    1. Erik J Meyer says:

      I am a citizen. I have not taken the same oath that is asked of those who are becoming a citizen. Have you? I would assume not because we aren’t required to do so. If you were asked to make an oath to a god, or other such entity that you did not believe in, would you make such an oath? In doing so, would it not be a lie? And if it is a lie, the rest of the oath swearing would become dubious. So why ask someone to swear an oath to something that they don’t believe in?

      We aren’t debating that they shouldn’t swear an oath to our American Nation….why. WHY should i force my belief upon you? I have friends, family, and colleagues of many different faiths. Most of which are American citizens. Some of which are defenders our our country. Some are officers of the law. None of them force their faith beliefs upon me. A discussion of course, can be had freely. To ask someone to swear an oath to something they don’t believe in is ridiculous. They don’t believe in it. Whether or not any of us do. Why would they? Why should they? FREEDOM. Freedom to not believe is just as important as freedom to believe. Free Will. We have the right as a free society to change what is asked/required to do and adhere to. Hence this discussion topic. In many countries we having this discussion might be having armed troops knocking on our doors…simply by opening up this web page. I prefer the freedom part. The part for others not to interfere with what I believe. If YOU and others wish to impart their beliefs upon others…well I say that my beloved country of liberty and freedom is not for YOU. Your country is one that puts faith before his neighbor. Faith before kindness, compassion, and love. This IS my country. It is the greatest because of freedom.

      1. A Simple American says:

        you didn’t have to because that is your God given right – that you ARE a citizen of this country … it sounds like you choose someone else’s freedom than your own country’s citizens.. you have an interesting perspective to defend someone else’s right rather the laws and guidelines of your own country … you seem to be missing the point of why things were done and they way they were done when this country was founded … way back then … look back at history and appreciate where we come from and why we did what we did – and why we continue to do what we do .. its what makes this country sooo amazing ..

        Sad that you can’t open your mind to where your ancestors had to go through yet you are so eager to talk about FREEDOM for whomever that has an issue with YOUR country… pretty sad …

        1. Erik J Meyer says:

          That is exactly my point. If Odin gave me the right to be a citizen of this country and I made every single person swear an oath to him how would you feel? Just fine I suppose? What if that god is Beelzebub that you all new citizens must sear upon. Fine there as well. Allah is fine too correct?…as is any other pantheon….yes? What if I don’t believe in those deities? What if I do not believe in a or The god?

          Our country also evolves continuously. It has, and will continue to do so. It becomes better, and stronger. Or do you perhaps suggest we should eliminate all the Amendments? Or maybe just the ones that suit your perspective.

          ANSWER PLEASE. Would you rather a liar become a citizen. Or a truthful person that takes an oath of loyalty to our country? Yes. Pretty SAD.

          1. A Simple American says:

            Answer – I want a person who wants to come to this amazing country – be a part of the culture / accept where we are – and do their best to improve their life and life of fellow citizens…

            Lets simplify – if someone wants to be a part of your family – you have certain values that make you who you are – and would you just let anyone in that wants to come and tell you how to change your life to make them feel better? The fact that you consider bringing them into your home with your family – should be a point of gratitude and appreciation. Only and only if there are things that would improve your life and help make things better in your household, would a conversation be had – only after they have proven themselves to be worthy to be heard…and that the motive is for the betterment of YOUR Family & Lives you are responsible for…

            And if you do allow people to come and cause chaos in your life – then i am very sorry for you ….

            Its pretty simple here – accept who we are … if not – you should probably re-evaluate why you have an issue with this – or accept it and know its a call to a ‘higher power’ to help you (accept it or don’t have to but its been asked)…

            EVERYONE needs help from a higher power (something bigger than yourself) …

          2. Thomas Goodrich says:

            Erik, not that this is any great consolation, but I’ve read all your posts on this issue and I’m with you 100%. I find it very hard that those claiming to be God fearing and just people; those claiming to be he followers of Christ, can not believe in the separation of church from our government at all levels.

            Praising the Lord or praying to God is all well and good for those that have “the faith” but it is not a mandated command that everyone have the same belief or faith – like wearing two caps – one for government and one for individual belief’s without pushing those personal beliefs on everyone. Government is established to keep an orderly society and religion, if you so believe, is your ticket to heaven or hell, nothing more, nothing less.

  35. Ellen M. Santistevan says:

    The oaths you make between you and God should be private and have no place in our government — not in the pledge of allegiance, not on our currency, not in the oath of any office of public service.

    1. Erik J Meyer says:

      Thanks Ellen. Well put.

      1. Blanca Thompson says:

        Why are you living here?

        1. Erik J Meyer says:

          Do you have a problem with having a private relationship with God? Would you suggest which God or institution of God should be in our government?

          Catholic? Protestant? Eastern Orthodox Church? Anglican? Baptist? Mormonism? Methodists? Pentecosts? Messianic Jews? Judaism? Hasidic Judaism? Rabinic Judaism? Theravada? Mahayana? Sunni Islamism? Shia Islamism? Kharijite Islamism? Naturalism? Mexicayotl? Shamanism? Earth Lodge? Waashat? Asatruism? Laotian folk religion? Gardnerian? American Welsh? Church of the Subgenius? New Reformed Orthodox Order of the Golden Dawn? Celtic Polytheism? Satanism? Which of the above would YOU like making and upholding laws for you? And for all of us? (I know, there are many, many more.)

          Or maybe…just maybe we can keep any and all of these out of government. Perhaps we can govern our own affairs of our own individual beliefs(and pursuits) how we choose. We will all come to an end. And we will all see or not what is at that end.

          Or again, would you like the government to have control of the religion as well?

          I know I don’t want the government telling me who and what I can believe in. My relationship with the Almighty is between myself(maybe my family) and my God.

          1. A Simple American says:

            Hi Erik – I appreciate your point of view – did you ever hear me say that the god they were asking for help was MY GOD ? I believe I am worshipping the same god our finding fathers referenced back then … but in no way shape or form is this line asking for you to convert or call out to MY GOD — I believe its acknowledging a higher power…

            If I were to go to Iran – and they I wanted to be a citizen of Iran – I would consider what are they asking me to do / to be / to follow / to adhere to within their government and institutions in general .. and weigh the choice – can I adhere to the requirements of being called an citizen of Iran or not .. NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO DO THAT – THAT IS A PERSONAL CHOICE.. and if it doesn’t feel like I can do all that is required for me to be an Iranian, then I should probably NOT be a citizen of..

            This is the same situation – we have so few things we ask of people to learn / to do / to be / to contribute that its sad that you and others are so ‘hung up’ on this statement…

            And this has not changed since the beginning and it has brought us to a place where we all can be safe & proud of of, and have the freedom to agree to dis-agree — …

          2. John Owens says:

            The government has never tried to tell you who your God should be.

          3. Carl Elfstrom says:

            Whatever your belief in God or religion when you get to the end you’ll see a light. You better go through it without any reservations or you might find yourself stuck here as a ghost!

  36. Blanca Thompson says:

    Just stop for a moment and think why is it that you or/and your parents came to live here in the United States of America. The Oath has been there even before you were born. There is a way of life here in America and America is what it is because of that Oath, and now you are repealing what it is because you are not a believer?, just look around and see what is happening to those that do not believe in God and act lawless. Some might be millionaires, that is good, but money is not everything, just take a good look at the life of most of them, miserable life. On the other hand, I wonder why would someone leave their country, renounce to his/her citizenship and come to the United States and impose to live the same as he/she lived in the country they do not want anymore? If they didn’t resolve their own situation/problems over there why are they thinking that becoming a US Citizen is going to brighten their life. Stop and meditate on this and think about yourself only. Think about your inner self. Are you happy, no matter what?

  37. Kathy B says:

    Why can’t everyone just stop complaining about everything? I don’t know if people are sue happy, trying to get to be known for something, or what the problem is, but enough already. Say what you want, do what you want, live and let live!!!

  38. Thomas Goodrich says:

    Here is an excellent reference tool between the Bible (Gods word) and Government – not sure I find anything that even comes close to the word “God” being placed in any oath, pledge or mention on money or placed on the walls of a government building – seems to two should not be mixed. http://www.faithfacts.org/christ-and-the-culture/the-bible-and-government

  39. Chuck says:

    Our ancestors came here to declare a break away from the old world of Monarchy, and to declare a freedom of life and ability to worship God as we see fit. Monarchy morphed into socialism and followed us here to undermine our efforts.

    It now promotes BIG government (socialism/monarchy), perversion, infant murder, atheism, and abuse in all forms.

    If you have a disrespect for the founding motives of this country then DO NOT COME HERE!! This place is open to everyone, but it is not FOR everyone.

    Stay in your monarch/socialist nightmare called France. If this woman had ANY respect for the country taking her in, she would just sit there and keep quiet. And if you are atheist, what offense does a reference to God have to you anyway???

    Theres a reason most early Americans were Christians…..because Christ taught that Big Government and false religion were evils. Most of that message has been lost in modern Christians thanks to the “Church”, which is nothing more than Rome disguised. If Rome is what you want in your life, than STAY WHERE YOU CAME FROM!!!

  40. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Theres a reason most early Americans were Christians…

    And, it was so that they would not be put in stocks, in the towne square and be pelted with spoiled fruits and veg…! Remember this?

    http://jesusneverexisted.com

  41. Kevin Von Zell says:

    And. just Who were those heaving all of those spoiled fruits and veg @ their brother & sister Xtians…?

    Why. it was none other than Protestant, Puritanical (Satanical?) Christians…! jesusneverexisted.com

    ALL NEW AMERICANS, THE LAND OF THE FREE, HOME OF THE BRAVE (ENOUGH TO THROW FOOD…?!)

    And, later, to steal blacks, turn them into slavery-honouring believers & to WHIP their backs for any infraction of

    “American Law & Justice… I” mean, who would really WANT to emmigrate from socialism into such a Hateful Nation…?

    Surely not the TRUE natives, who were marched onto reservations, on their own land, and forced to build casinos. 😉

    1. Carl Elfstrom says:

      I especially liked that food fight on Animal House. That was really cool. I haven’t taken part in one yet, but may have tossed a few slices of pizza at CiCi’s when nobody was watching. And you know those tortillas they put on tables in Mexican restaurants. They make really good frisbees. Ole! Furthermore, the black people were’nt stolen from anyone. They didn’t belong to anyone of whom which they could have been stolen from before they became slaves.

  42. Carl Elfstrom says:

    I thought the Bill Of Rights only applied to American citizens. Before she takes that oath and becomes an American citizen she’s not an American citizen and doesn’t have the rights of an American citizen no matter how American she “Seems” to be. There’s no such thing as a seeming American. Either you are or you are’nt. And that should be enough for any judge to laugh her case out of court. An illegal alien suing our government because she doesn’t like the way something is worded? Give me a break! If she won’t take the oath, and doesn’t have a green card.), deport her! We already have plenty of American rebels ( who are citizens and belong here ), and more than plenty illegal aliens who will say or do practically anything to stay here. I bet most of them would’nt even accuse us of sexual harassment for at least forty years. Let’s put her on a small raft, with a paddle and a compass, and see how close she gets to her home country. I bet it won’t be long before she starts praying to God. And if she doesn’t make it blame it on me. They need more ministers in prison.

  43. Carl Elfstrom says:

    Didn’t I hear that G.O.D. means Good Orderly Direction. Who in their right minds could possibly be against that? Besides that, God is’nt a christian word, but is used by multiple religions and spiritual paths to represent the head hauncho who created everything. So why mention Christianity at all? It was only used as a general term to represent a persons higher power. That could be a light bulb, a worm, a piece of candy, a shoe, etc., whatever you believe is more powerful. than you. And who is so saintly that he won’t tell a lie to get what he wants? Damn sure not I. Anyone who was born in a particular country is a native of that country. Anyone who thinks otherwise is illiterate ( functional or otherwise ) like many of the so-called American Indians ( for lack of a better or more suitable name for them ), who walked here from China, probably before the last great flood. That is, the last time this planet shifted on its axis. [That was the demise of Atlantis and Lemuria.] Besides that, the Indians lost the war and don’t have a right to bitch about anything. They can stay on their reservations, and kiss our feet. Losers are second rate citizens in any country where they lost a war.

  44. Carl Elfstrom says:

    I’ve known some Indians too. Some were good and some were bad.I was friends with some of them too. Atleast one of each. One of them had a few scalps hanging from the walls in his teepee.That kind don’t seem to care for women much. I believe they call them burdaches.He’d always smile and wink when someone mentioned sodomy.Despite all of their differences they had two things in common. They all believed in gods, and they all smelled like buffolo shit, which is another good reason why they should stay on those reservations. I’ve heard they like to dry out and season buffolo chips. That’s why they smell that way. They’ll post practically anything on this good, religious, ministers blog, won’t they? Of course, all things done in his name. Amen!

  45. Kevin Von Zell says:

    I only used the word “stolen,” instead of “kidnapped,” because no ransom was asked for nor offered…!

    BTW, have you noticed just how terribly ignorant and hateful these so-called ministers are in actuality?

    TOTALLY SHOCKING & ILLUNINATING; Love Only, Always, Rev. Dr. Kevin von Zell,D.D., MDiv, B.Mus.

    PS Time for most to go back to seminary and learn about the basics of love for other human beings…?

    1. John Owens says:

      Oh, yeah. That’s all they teach at seminary, Kevin. Love. Right.

      1. kevin says:

        No, John, they also taught the 4 gospels cancel one another out with errors…

        JesusNeverExisted.com

        1. John Owens says:

          Not errors. The seminarians were Satan’s servants. The only so-called discrepancies in the gospels are not discrepancies at all. For instance, at Golgotha, one account says two thieves and one says two malefactors (Sicari). A detractor would say that is a discrepancy. It is not. The two accounts are not meant to be identical. They are complementary.

  46. Carl Elfstrom says:

    Kidnapping is also not an appropriate term here,Kevvy. The word “taken” would have sufficed. Like some other ministers on this blog you aren’t good about being corrected or given positive criticism. Some ministers preach but hate being preached to. That’s caused by emotional immaturity, which shows you probably don’t have a high aptitude for ministering to others, but think you do, simply because you have a lot to say,like to preach, are very opinionated, and believe everything you think, even when it is lacking in research. Another way of putting it Kevvy is to say that you are a loudmouth. And you are’nt a very good speller iether.[I only spelled buffalo wrong, in my last post.]So there, you meanie, top that!

  47. Carl Elfstrom says:

    Furthermore Reverend Doctor your excellency sir, love is an action word, and it takes two to tango.

    1. John Owens says:

      We can agree on that, Carl. Love IS an action. It isn’t just a feeling or figure of speech.

  48. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Yup, it taketh “Two to Tango,” like powerful Christian overlairds tangoing with defenseless blacks and Indians and free-thinking Pilgrims…

    Out of Whom they kicked the stuffing… repeatedly! “I AM proud to be an American, just not a “Christian-American”…!” No offense here intended;NO tango!

    Love Only, Always, Brother von Zell

  49. Kevin Von Zell says:

    BTW, Carl, we, as a country MAY be “out of control,” temporarily as we adjust to the fact that… http://jesusneverexisted.com

    Our overlordsl have used the “fairy-tales of old Jewish women” to try and keep their huddled masses under their own thumb…

    But, as is apparent from http://jesusneverexisted.com, their Bible-based shams of control are quickly losing them creedence.

    Would it not have been MUCH better to, at least try to come up with a believable epistomology and a scientific comsomology?

    Love, Your “Rev. Dr.”

    PS Then, folks would not even MIND saying our Pledge of Afflegience” or SWEARING (a Bible no-no!) to becoming citizens…

  50. Tom Jaynes says:

    May I propose that we look at this from another standpoint? Suppose an immigrant takes the Citizenship oath as written and swears to that oath saying, “So help me God.” Time passes and that new citizen has decided, for whatever the reason, to no longer believe in any God. The reasons for this new disbelief are their own and not subject to argument. Does this now invalidate the oath taken upon becoming a citizen, or any other oaths this citizen may have taken in the name of a God? With this in mind, I believe that oaths stating “so help me God” be rewritten to simply say, “I so affirm”. I, personally, will not think less of the individual’s commitment to the oaths being taken. Just a thought!

    1. Linda says:

      Tom, shouldn’t whatever has the most heartfelt impact personally, at the moment of their pledge be what is important? If later in life, invoking God transitioned to committing the highest level of honor within themselves to help guide them, the fundamental focus remains in using their believed highest source to lead them. The USA respects their right to change where they believe that highest guidance comes, but their pledge to use “their” highest level of moral direction remains. IMO, their oath is still valid.

      1. Tom Jaynes says:

        Thanks for your input.

  51. Carl Elfstrom says:

    I’m glad the ministry deleted my last post. I can take a hint. I realize upon reflection that I’m sometimes overly sensitive and carried away with what I’m saying. [This is not a place to get personal and lecture my fellow ministers.] Keep up the good work! I’ve ministered enough on this article, so it’s time to move on to the next. God bless and Blessed Be!

  52. Linda says:

    Please enlighten me as to why our government would even CONSIDER this lawsuit. It seems clear cut to me. Simply say, “Look lady, we have one version for you, to respect your belief in no god. Equally so, you must respect the right of others to be able to believe in their God/Gods/Goddess. If you think the US is to withhold equal rights from others just because you want only your beliefs to be the only rights of our land, then another country is better for you, because this is just a small aspect to the diversity of equal rights for ALL you will encounter here. Our pledge asks for your highest level of honor to help you be a good citizen, and those that believe in a higher power beyond themselves to help them, they can because we respect it as the most meaningful way for them, as yours is to you.” End of story. Now that would save everyone a lot of money we need for other things.

    1. John Owens says:

      I’m with you. I hope that is more or less what the judge says, Linda

  53. nappytee says:

    CC – We are the United States of America – in this case United {meaning if you do not agree, stay where you are}. We already have enough of others peoples stuff to pray off. Put your hand down, don’t take the oath and go home. Apparently, this :USA is not your home.

  54. kevin says:

    Dear John,

    Have you seen a parallel Bible?

    Simply rife with inconsistency

    Love Only, Always, Pastor von Zell.

    1. John Owens says:

      Yes, I have seen many different Bibles. My personal favorite (which I loaned to a Mexican friend and never got back) was 1611 King James English on one side and Reina Valera 1960? Spanish on the other. I also had the four-translation New Testament. However, what you are speaking of is an invention of people opposed to Christ and to the Bible, who exaggerate differences in Gospel accounts because they think in order to criticize rather than practicing critical thinking. Tell me an inconsistency between two gospel accounts with chapter and verse and I will show you what they are doing wrong.

    2. John Owens says:

      Never heard back on this one, kevin.

      1. Kevin Von Zell says:

        Now, come on, John (euphemisme pour la Toilette,) You REALLY think that any “pasteur” that uses the palabra “MERDE” in his posts, really DESERVES any sort of FEIGNED “awe and respect” for thy colllection of CLOWN literature of B.M.? Ich will nicht mit Dich untereden. Du weist nichts und es macht mir NICHTS, Amen?

        Remember, your Super-Hero… http://jesusneverexisted.com

        1. John Owens says:

          They do not contradict. Sometimes they dovetail, and sometimes they relate similar, though different scenes or dialogues. The perceived contradictions are from misinterpretation or outright hostile spin. Wenn du nicht mit mir reden willst, dann hör auf. Amen?

          1. Linda says:

            John, I think you’re right that most times it is just a different way to say the same thing.

            Even so, scholars agree that apparent minor inconsistencies give credibility to the Bible. Minor variances of the same incidence show they are from different sources; therefore witnessed by more than one person.

            If you ask witnesses of a crime what happened, they all have minor inconsistencies. If everyone has the exact same story, red flags go up. It was probably rehearsed and adds suspicions of dishonesty.

            The Bible’s core message is the same, is self evident, and speaks for itself. The devil is in the details. 🙂

          2. Kevin Von Zell says:

            Dear John (Letter,)

            John, I have a very sincere proposal for you…!

            Just recently I watched AMERICA’S MOST HATED WOMAN, THE MADALYN MURRAY- O’HAIR STORY…

            One very telling scence revealed the DEAL that was proposes to her by a well-known APOLOGIST…

            Anyway, after one PUBLIC debate her leaned over to Madelyn and wh!ispered that YOU AND I COULD MAKE A GREAT DEAL OF MONEY DOING THIS!!!

            So, they set up a “schema” wherein they set up similat public forum debates and CHARGE TICKET PRICES. Well, even with a modest price setup, we could make money TOGETHER…

            See My Point? Rev. Dr. Kevin von Zell, D.D.,M.Div,, B.Mus.

            Although we are CURRENTLY only bit players, on the world scene, I think we are developing a bit & schtick that could SELL tickets, if we flogged it through a promoter.

            What Think Ye? I would take half the gate, and you the other half, with 10% to our manager. Why not take this SHOW to the road? I am QUITE sincere, as I stated….!

            Event though I am not a true atheist, I am a Jebus-atheist and this could generate a lot of hate for my Goliath character with our publice, with you aiming a rock at my understanding as the migthy shepherd boy, the future King David, (why happens to be my direct-ancestor.) We might even be able to work this into s script for our “SHOW!”

            As the Beatles were, in Deutschland, to MACH SCHAU, we could “make a show” out of this until we’re @ “THE TOPPERMOST OF THE POPPERMOST” of public debaters…!

            How else are we to showcare YOUR BRILLIANCE than to get you out of THIS “Cavern Club” and onto a WORLD STAGE, wherein thou belongest…?! I mean these words!!!

            BTW, if you ARE interested in taking our jousting skills into the ARENA, please, write me back @ kevinvonzell@gmail.com

            Otherwise, as stated, this is only a DEAR JOHN LETTER, as stated in my preamble.

          3. John Owens says:

            Yes, Linda. Here is an example: there were at least two different occasions where Jesus performed a miracle by feeding thousands with only a little food. People with no discernment are easily led to believe it is the same story told by different people describing the same event, but if you read the details, they were very different occasions, in different locations.

            On Golgotha (or Calvary [from Calavera- Latin for skull]), one account says there were two thieves being hung on posts (the Catholics say crucified, but the Greek scriptures say nothing whatsoever about a cross. They say a stake or pole or post “stau”) with Jesus. Another says two “malefactors”, actually sicarii militant assassins, I believe. Malefactor and thief were two very different things, either way. The traditional portrayal of three crosses (we already established they weren’t crosses at all) is why people think there is a discrepancy. The Bible does NOT say that only three people were hung on poles. There could have been twenty, but only FIVE were mentioned. Two thieves, two malefactors, and Jesus.

            Too often, the faithful AND the unbelievers fail to use their powers of deductive reasoning WHILE they read the scriptures.

  55. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Dear John,

    “Study to show thyself approved…”

    Passion Disparencies Amongst Four “Gospels”:

    http://www.westmont.edu/~fisk/Articles/Passion-Gospels%20Compared.pdf

    Submitted for Your “Disapproval,”

    Rev. Dr. Kevin von Zell, D.D. M.Div, B.Mus

    1. John Owens says:

      Exactly as I said, Kevin. The accounts, though different, do NOT contradict. They dovetail. I am surprised you cannot see that. One gives a detail another leaves out. One fills in a gap. The scholar who wrote this is thoroughly misguided.

  56. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Really… Hence… http://jesusneverexisted.com

    Love Only, Always, Your, Rev. Dr. von Zell

    1. Linda says:

      Kevin, when personal accounts differ ever so slightly, it makes me think that it is from honest sources and most of it is probably true. If you ask different people to give an eyewitness account of a car accident or crime, there are always minor inconsistencies in each person’s honest recall of the event. An identical story could easily indicate a collaboration to fabricate a lie or just to mutually agree on one story.

      Although there are no primary resources claiming Jesus existed, Josephus was a well respected historian that writes as if truly convinced that Jesus was in fact a real man. There are other similar historical accounts. More currently, finding what appears to be the actual tomb of Jesus with DNA evidence and statistics clearly indicating it is more likely to be that of Jesus than not, gives a lot of credibility to the Biblical accounts. Watch the documentary The Tomb of Jesus, probably on youtube.

      For sure his name was NOT Jesus because the letter J wasn’t invented until the 15th century, when it became a variation of the letter I. There was once a Buddhist document that was a “primary resource,” which claimed Isas went there and talked about how Mosa led his people out of Egypt. This more recent revelation, probably within the last century, was probably proof Jesus actually existed, but that page went missing soon after its identification and before it could be scientifically verified. It was probably stolen by an extremist “Christian” because many were appalled that anyone would dare suggest Jesus had such close ties to Buddhism. A book, The Lost Years of Jesus also offers weight to the claim Jesus was in India is probably true.

      Plus, if Jesus didn’t really exist, you would have to wonder why the teachings in the most famous book in the world ever, were allocated to a fictitious character. Who would give away the credit of such profound teachings to someone else unless it was truly the teachings of Jesus? Remember many thought Imhotep was a myth but was later proven to be a real person.

      Even so, I have to concede to parallel stories of Jesus to that of the Egyptian god Horace and Mary to Horace’s mother Isis. The Horace story makes one wonder if a part of this highly regarded figure was superimposed onto Jesus as the Jesus story took divine center stage as it spread through different cultures. We’ve seen this happen from the true story of St. Nicholas being transformed into Santa Claus as the endearing story went through different cultures, to be including Kris Kringle, Christmas trees, Rudolf the Reindeer, and Coca Cola commercialization. I think this was done way more extensively than the story of Jesus because Jesus accounts go as far back as 70 AD in written records and St. Nicholas, born in the 300s AD didn’t start mutating until around the 1800s. It would be easy to see the mutation process and there is no evidence of such about Jesus after Constantine managed to capture the story and it has basically remained unchanged except for translation errors, which there are resources to identify them easily now.

      Even so, the profound words of the Bible speak for themselves, are self evident truths, and to argue over these much less important aspects you bring up only proves “the devil is in the details,” because that is only smoke and mirrors that takes away from what its true importance really is, the self evident Divine Message itself. The evidence of that is right in front of our face, right now.

      1. Kevin Von Zell says:

        Dear Linda,

        Bless you, Sister… Just keep up your studies & search further…

        I was exactly at the SAME POINT in my understanding ’til later.

        I once even believed in the Santa Claus character, ’til I grew up…

        1st Corinthians 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

        Love ONLY, Always, Rev. Dr. Kevin von Zell, D.D., MDiv, B.Mus.

        1. j says:

          Never “loose” ones inner child.

        2. Linda says:

          Kevin, you seem to have missed the point. I do think Jesus was a real person, and Santa Claus is directly derived from a real person, St. Nicholas. I’ll be happy to site sources once you show you are willing to reciprocate the respect.

          I already know about the Zoroastrians, Mythracism, the correlation to astrological events, and the tremendous influence of the Egyptian faith… after all, Moses is accredited with the first five books of the Bible and he was raised in Egypt by the Bible’s own account.

          I know there are no known primary resources where Jesus had an eyewitness account,, and that much of the Old Testament has yet to be corroborated by archeological evidence.

          Yet there is the ancient piece of copper scroll referencing the House of David AND more so, David Rohl’s theory solving a mystery to a pyramid, which would directly confirm historical accounts in the Old Testament. BTW, at the time of Rohl’s discovery he was not a Bible believer and fought to be excluded from Biblical groups. He referenced only the Bible’s historical sequence, which validated his pyramid theory further. Rohl was emphatic about being recognized only on scientific merits.

          Also finding the lost tomb of Jesus gives huge support to the scientific credence of Jesus’ actual existence. The DNA and statistical significance involving that theory are overwhelmingly convincing.

          There was said to have been a primary resource indicating Jesus went to the far east, but it was later stolen before it could be scientifically validated. See the book the Lost Years of Jesus too.

          I understand that some stories in the Bible are more likely fables, such as Noah’s Ark and the temple of Babel, but they are probably based on actual occurrences and mostly misunderstood by those that tell it in modern times. The moral of these stories are profound and have significant relevance to this day.

          So far Kevin, you’ve offered nothing to refute these claims supporting that Jesus and many historical Biblical events seem to be true. If you were to present logical and / or substantiated resources for your contrary beliefs, we could have a wonderfully meaningful discussion.

          Perhaps you fear you are the one that must question your current understanding of what really happened… and maybe it’s scary to win back your faith in a new perspective because it hurt so much when you lost it last time. You claim to have put remarkable efforts into learning what you feel has misled you now and I can only imagine the deep grief you must have felt.

          If you flutter in and flutter out with nothing to offer and too fearful to engage in a thought provoking exchange, then you are more likely just a troll or someone who is just lost and too afraid to find their way home.

          1. John Owens says:

            Part of the Santa story is also tied to Nimrod, Linda. The evergreen tree, the gifts, the slipping in unseen during the night, all that goes back to Babylon, but back then it was tied to Dec 21, the winter solstice (rebirth of the SUN). The Romans observed a form of it (Saturnalia) and as the mixed Jewish/Gentile sect called Christians caught on, the pagans changed the name and the exact date of it and brought many of the same pagan rituals in and called Jesus’ birthday, knowing that it was not.

          2. Linda says:

            John, St. Nicholas was well known for his habit of gift giving. More about the historical figure here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

            I know there is pagan influence, so that doesn’t surprise me. I think its inclusion into the Christian culture is part of our ministry towards reconciliation given to us by Jesus.

            Today pagans are wonderfully close to nature, stay in the rhythm of nature by celebrating the solstices, equinoxes, times to plant / harvest, full moon, waning moon, and I believe hold the landmark to our way back to the Garden of Eden, only it will be better when we get there again.

          3. John Owens says:

            Two of God Almighty’s Holy Days are on full moons– the first day of Unleavened Bread (Passover is the evening beginning that), and the first day of the Feast of Tabernacles. The new moons mark the beginning of the new months.

      2. Kevin Von Zell says:

        Exactly, Dear Linda,

        The evidence of that is right in front of our face, right now.

        And, it is found @: http://jesusneverexisted.com Amen-Ra?

        Just TRY reading EVERY page of Ken Humphreys’ website &

        watch ALL of Ken’s clever videos, as I have, & not agree w/ ‘im…!

        Truly Life Transformative & Freeing from Yehoshua, Kevin von Z.

        PS And, who would not wish to be free from HIS hell-preaching?

        PPS “Gospel,” (Good News…?!) of Matthew 10:34  Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

        Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/11/should-so-help-me-god-be-removed-from-u-s-citizenship-oath/#zmvgh603i1H8pvbw.99

        1. Linda says:

          Kevin, do you know the character of Amen? He is the invisible God, of mercy, kindness, love, protector of the downtrodden, the creator, and God of the gods…. so your point?

          C’mon! I’m not reading every page of any website or watching your videos either. Make a claim and if I question it, site your sources. I’ll do likewise.

          Matthew saying Jesus didn’t come to give peace but to take away peace so we could have real peace is an amazing concept. They were not as articulate as us back then but it is still clear what is being said. Jesus came to take away complacency, which can be noted as a kind of peace but is quite different, so that we can have real peace. If we just say of others oppression, that’s not my problem, then we truly do not have real peace.

          Anything else?

          1. Kevin Von Zell says:

            Jebus Sez: Luk_22:36  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

            Luke 22:38  And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

            Please, Linda, APOLOGIZE yer socks off…!

            Have fun trying to twist these words of Holy Writ into anything worth SWEARING ALLEGIENCE to in order to be American…!

            Oh, wait… that IS the Jebus the US followed into 2 W.W.s and into ‘Nam & into the Gulf?

          2. Linda says:

            Wow Kevin, losing your faith must have really damaged you emotionally and obviously made you angry. You just spend your time lashing out at those that support their faiths, what caused your deep emotional stress when you lost yours.

            How does trolling this site truly help you feel better or become a better person? Your frame of mind does nothing to win people into atheism, and may scare them away from it by seeing the consequences of it here in you.

            I have nothing for which to apologize, Kevin. Just because you post a verse about purses, provisions, and swords? We could have had a discussion of the deeper meanings behind them but deep down you are too afraid to entertain a position you feel could hurt you again.

            You probably feel betrayed, but that’s not true. Your path could have been an evolutionary one but you inadvertently allowed someone to steal the life out of these messages. That is sad and I’m sorry that happened to you.

            You truly need emotional help, and I say that sincerely and respectfully. If you fail to get a handle on this broken state, with or without Jesus, it will only get worse and have devastating consequences in your life. Talk to your friends that have no connection to those sites you posted and no connection to the Bible either. Please find some mental stability and genuine friends so you can resolve your anger and start to have peace in your life. Take care Kevin.

          3. John Owens says:

            Classic case of manifestation of cognitive dissonance.

      3. j says:

        Jesus, I believe existed. The point here is mostly Solipsism & Egocentric predicament in how we interprets these writings. Understanding phaneron & knowing only humans are flawed. Entropy at its best (or is that… at its worst)? Some atheists detect these vasts amounts of contradiction & become such.

        1. Linda says:

          J, IMO, the Bible can be interpreted in a way everyone gets the same gist, but the meaning is obscured. Hence, for those who have an ear, let them hear. We all have ears, so the meaning is deeper. The Mystery School investigation process is also transforming, which is my favorite, but there are other ways. What is phaneron?

          The verses sited about bringing a sword, IMO, it is a two edged sword symbolizing it cuts both ways, usually to “rebuke” the extremists on both ends – the condescending pious and the greedy barbarians. Taking away peace so we can have real peace and turning daughter against mother and so on is, IMO, talking about complacency. When something isn’t right, we stand up for the person instead of saying it isn’t our problem, or to do nothing to be nice to our family member, the offender. If Mr. Hatfield says to his son not to marry Mr. McCoy’s daughter because of an ongoing feud the fathers have. his son would say he is going to marry her anyway – if the complacency is gone… turning the son against his father.

          They weren’t as articulate back then and looking up word’s meanings in the lexicons via Strong numbers, all the way back to its prime root meaning, it becomes more clear. Some words can have 20+ meanings! Cross referencing helps too. IMO, most popular Biblical renditions today miss the true meaning… like the forbidden fruit, the Temple of Babel, and the 7 Seals. I’m sure the same thing happens in the Koran, and for someone to just superficially pick a verse here or there and think they KNOW what it is saying is an irresponsible assumption, especially if the person then uses it to create hate. Imagine how they will feel when they find out they were wrong.

        2. J says:

          We read many words of how every one claims the writings, the word, the bible are all being twisted, con-screwed, misunderstood, etc. Of all the ppl who claim they (their ego) has the correct meaning. I say this.. Who is to make the claim of who is or not correct? Egotistical phaneron here. Maybe you ALL are correct. Maybe you ALL are incorrect.

      4. Kevin Von Zell says:

        In fact, my very same proposal goes out from the offices of “Kevin von Zell Jesus-Atheists United,” for YOU to join our big arena stage show, of CHRISTIAN DEBATE where we sell tickets, TO AN EAGER PUBLIC, out of whom we derive a gate-price to witness our rivalry, a la MADELYN MURRAY O’HAIR STORY. Please, refer to my pitch made recently to Rev. John Owens, whom I’d bill as “King David, The Mighty Shepherd Boy” and YOU could represent another female counterpart, from the Holy Bible, as your stage persona; maybe “The Madalene”…?! I am quite sincere in this proposal, sharing the gate-price 33-33-33 or 50/50 if it’s just YOU!

        Please, “mach schau mit mir” @ kevinvonzell@gmail.com or this is simply a Dear John Letter, to you, dearie.

  57. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Dear John,

    I want to thank you for making my work possible, this day… Thanks to John Owens…

    1. I proved the fallibility of our Holy Bible to any unbiased readers, here on this forum…

    2. Helping me, through my Hegelian Dlalectic, to entirely derail these sorry comments!

    3. You have, also provided me a forum for my major point, that you carefully side step…

    http://JESUSNEVEREXISTED.COM

    Thanks; Love Only, Always Br. Kevin

    1. John Owens says:

      You must really be John Maher writing under a pseudonym.

      1. Linda says:

        John, I’m glad you made that call, not that I know who John Mayer is. I may be wrong, but after reading some of his other posts, I am suspicious he is just a troll. He posts things but avoids interrelating with any significance and just seems to try to incite as many people as he can, any way he can. Just hasn’t seemed so genuine from what I’ve read.

        1. John Owens says:

          Maher writes like this: dUMP THE tRUMP!!

        2. Kevin Von Zell says:

          Dear John & Linda,

          Little children, I AM alive and full of love for you both…

          I merely write back to “childish criticism” of Myself…!

          &, defend a main point of this forum: I, Jesus am Dead.

          And, to make swearing, to believe in My reality, is a sin.

          READ & LEARN THE TRUTH ABOUT ME, “JESUS…”

          And, I quote: Hebrews 8:4  For IF HE WERE ON EARTH, he should NOT BE A PRIEST, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

          There, from your OWN Book, are the words of THE biblical TROLL, of Hebrews, who absolutely RUINED my “faith” that Jehoshua ever came down to earth, to be a priest, high or not, for our “sins…” as if that were even biblically possible…! Remember, I once believed.

          And, studied @ Western Evangelical Seminary & Western Conservative Baptist Seminary, Greek & Systematic Theology, just to show myself approved.

          Love ONLY, Always, Kevin

          1. John Owens says:

            You understand nothing of what you read, Kevin, because the eyes of your mind have been blinded by Lucifer, and thinking yourself enlightened, you walk in darkness and wish for others to do the same. The Devil must have used the seminary as a medium to enter your brain, and take from you the ability to reason.

          2. Linda says:

            Kevin, I just noticed where I think you have misunderstood what Hebrew is saying, taking your word it said that. Jesus didn’t offer gifts according to the law, because the letter of the law takes away life, it condemns, it is written on stone, but instead he gives a gift to understand there are exceptions to the law. The law is for man, not man for the law.

            Jesus came to write the laws on our hearts, to have compassion through grace. Grace understands we all know not what we do, we are ignorant, we just do the best we can and no one can do better than their best. How can someone be condemned for doing their best? Yet we still hold them accountable or they will not change. Grace changes the condemning perspective of sin to one as just a mistake made in ignorance, yet we still have accountability or we would not change. (I like what the Buddhists say, that we are not punished for our sins but by our sins.) That is how saving us from our sins is possible.

      2. Kevin Von Zell says:

        THAT I, THE GREAT BILL MAHER, EVOKED UNDER THE MIS-MONIKER OF JOHN MAHER, BY YOU, AS DEIGNING TO TAKE AWAY FROM MY BRILLIANT TIME AS A COMEDIAN AND PROFESSIONAL COMMENTATER, TO SPEAK TO YOU AS A “COMMON-TATER,” IS THE REAL JOKE OF THIS FORUM. SPUD MAN OF IDAHO, USA.

        SIGNED ELECTRONICALLY, MR. BILL MAHER, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH MY CLEVER ALIAS, REV. DR. KEVIN VON ZELL, D.D., M.DIV. BMUS, NO SHIT SHERLOCK?

        WHAT SIGNIFICANCE DOES THY CHASTISING A FELLOW HAVE TO DO W/THE USA?

        ARE YOU SIMPLY EXERCISING THY AMENDMENT RIGHTS OR DEFENDING YHWH?

        BECAUSE, AS WE BOTH KNOW, GOD DOESN’T HAVE THE STRENGTH TO DO IT…?!

        “GAWD” HAS ABOUT AS MUCH POWER TO CONSIGN ME TO YOUR HELL AS THEE.

        Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/11/should-so-help-me-god-be-removed-from-u-s-citizenship-oath/#CcKmh3R2d4tV6sWY.99

  58. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Dear Linda,
    You are the FIRST pastor to care about my spiritual welfare enough to try to correct me and my possible errors of thinking… and, for that I am truly grateful. Thank you, Sister…!
    Please, DO NOT read this reply to your caring reply, as being in any way stated in a snarky, trolling manner. Please, try to read just my own personal insights into what you carefully shared with me.

    But, I feel that my “faith,” in unsubstantiated elements of the Christian belief system is not prepared to accept things like: Moses was a REAL person, as he was not, unless he was a pharoanic look-alike chosen by the Jewish writers to stand in for their personal Redeemer.
    Also, the Talpiot Tomb is not a real good argument for the resurrection of Jesus, as our God, is it? The alleged tomb of Jesus totally blows the tomb of our blessed St. Issa proposition out of the water, too, doesn’t it?

    I, too, still believe in St. Nicholas as being a great “pattern for Christ-creation;” but wasn’t St. Nick the one who slapped Bishop Arius, at the Council of Nicea, for his “Arian” viewpoint that Jesus, was LESS of a Son of God than we Christians make Him out to be…? I think I am right about this… John_14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Linda, I can appreciate your “faith” that the Jewish people are all they’re cracked up to be, but when I read, and learned, that Jewish archeology had completely FAILED to prove any kind of Exodus from Egypt-land, I became rather skeptical about ANYTHING regarding them as a people, including the allegations of any copper scrolls attesting to my direct ancestor, King David of Israel. The mere fact that his place, located just outside of the Church of England Hotel & Chapel, where I stayed in the Old City of Jerusalem, was never really connected with my “grandpa” David, didn’t help my “faith” in him any, either. But, I did pray at each, and every, gate of the Old City, on the Eve of 1/1/2002 ,for the souls lost in New York City… because of an alleged Israeli conspiracy to defame Arabs. That certainly worked out, well to their advantage in the coming months and years of war waged by our peoples’ armies against their citizenry, didn’t it, Sister Linda?

    Linda, you didn’t mention where they scraped up the DNA off of empty bone boxes @ Talpiot, either. Were those discredited boxes filled with mummies, or with dust, I think! The “statistical evidence” that you so longingly, and lovingly are clinging to, points out that there WERE so many Josephs, Marys, and Yeshus in the area, back in olden days, that it’s NOT real…!

    Linda, I USED to actually revere THE GOSPEL OF ISSA as being more credible than any of our synoptics, or even our Gnostic Gospel of John, but I no longer cling to that possibility. Maybe, just maybe, you could get me fired up about my “Near-Eastern St. Issa,” again, if you tried real hard… So, please, I invite you to do this, as I would really LIKE to think there was a real Joe, Mary, & Son, Inc. …being as both THAT Jewish Jeshu and I share a common ancestor, known to the world today as St. Mary’s mother, “St. Anne.” It really BENEFITS me to believe these characters are all REAL, so it might not take an avalache of proof to sway me over, in position!!!

    So, I invite you to write me DIRECTLY to my inner-santum email address: kevinvonzell@gmail.com… If you really are willing to try and win back one “for the team” of Real Christians…! I have invested WAY too much time, effort, money and study to LOSE Him, meaning my old best-buddy and Divine Boss, Yeshu.

    This would only seem fair to those who are using THIS forum for a legitimate discussion, concerning the topic at hand, which involves slamming most atheist immigrants and collecting all Native Americans into one pile, as stinking like buffalo pooh… Carl, that’s you.

    ELFSTROM QUOTE @ WHICH I RECOILED: “They all believed in gods, and they all smelled like buffolo shit, which is another good reason why they should stay on those reservations. I’ve heard they like to dry out and season buffolo chips. That’s why they smell that way. They’ll post practically anything on this good, religious, ministers blog, won’t they? Of course, all things done in his name. Amen!”

    Post Reply: Why doesn’t ANYONE pick on Carl for dissing our hosts, the “indians,” like I am? Just Love, Kevin

    That move only signals a group TACIT APPROVAL, for which i am not wiling to SHAME you…:-)

    Love ONLY, Always, (To my new Sister, Linda, for Her Faith in Me!) Pastor Kevin von Zell

    Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/11/should-so-help-me-god-be-removed-from-u-s-citizenship-oath/#o4VX6tLEZeyXmtjT.99

    1. Linda says:

      Okay Kevin, let’s first get our priorities established. If you believe in Moses being a real person, or anyone else for that matter, is not even close to the most important issue. One needs to look at the message, and the teachings are self evident Truths that speak for themselves. Let’s discuss the message.

      Having this discussion here brings so many other perspectives that add to understanding the whole picture. I never claimed to know EVERYTHING. John has corrected me on claims I’ve made and I thank him for that.

      I really don’t have any need to win anyone back for the team, that was done about 2000 years ago. The good thing is, it’s not my job. Knowing you are already saved from condemnation no matter what you do is liberating for you to know, yet it is already done.

      If you watch the documentary on the Tomb of Jesus, it is well done professionally, not religious at all, short, and presented by a Jewish man so there is probably no bias, and I think he was involved in the discovery.

      There was an ossuary, box containing bones, that was sold as belonging to James, the brother of Jesus. The guy that sold it was going to trial for selling a fake artifact. Later, when they found the ossuary attributed to Jesus, they compared the DNA attributed to Jesus to that supposedly belonging to his brother James, and it showed a familial relationship.

      Yes, there are tons of people with the name Jesus and Mary but these are not independent instances but a collection of many names marking their burial in one family tomb, which makes the probability of all these names being from one family, in one tomb to 600,000 to 1 it belongs to the Biblical Jesus.

      It happened quite by accident too. A developer was building a condominium when he stumbled on a massive grave site. He had to stop so they could quickly retrieve the relics and info. One person that did that job was casually talking to another person, who informed them that their new research showed Mary Magdalene’s real name was Mariamne. When the person went back to work categorizing the artifacts of the tombs, they noticed one tomb had only names attributed to the family of Jesus and didn’t recognize the correlation before because of the name Mariamne!

      Kevin, that’s the statistics and that’s the DNA. Even so, as I’ve said, it is the message itself that holds the highest esteem, IMO.

      1. Kevin Von Zell says:

        2 ABUSE ME W/YER APOLOGETIC ATTEMPTS TO RE-“CHRISTEN” ME, PLEASE USE:

        KEVINVONZELL@GMAIL.COM

        I said that I would no longer abuse this forum with pettiness about Christian doctrine and your attempts to “minister” to my ignorance through APOLOGETIC attempts, but here I go:

        Linda, all U need do is glance over the brief synopses of each link on this page to reveal…

        MOSES HAS NO BASIS IN REAL HISTORY. SEE, I AM NOT ALONE IN OPINION, AMEN.

        https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-2698861478625135:3033704849&ie=UTF-8&q=moses%20not%20historical#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=moses%20not%20historical&gsc.page=1

        In fact, as our world wakes up, and smells BACON, they give up on any old Kosher Krist…

        http://jesusneverexisted.com

        Now, as far as Carl giving the sniff test to all those poopy injuns, of his, I don’t buy yer acct.

        The fact that Carl was left unchallenged in his rather rude assertions, means YOU agree…!

        Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/11/should-so-help-me-god-be-removed-from-u-s-citizenship-oath/#juO4lb9X2l8VDdu6.99

    2. John Owens says:

      Kevin, to doubt the authenticity of Moses is like doubting that there was an Egypt long ago. It is patently ridiculous to doubt that Moses was a historic figure. If you chose to doubt there was an Adam, or Noah, that might be slightly more excusable, but to doubt Moses is to CHOOSE to be ignorant.

      By the way, I think Carl was being sarcastic and making fun of those who speak ill of the Early Americans. Maybe others do, too, and that is why they aren’t picking on him.

      1. Kevin Von Zell says:

        2 ABUSE ME W/YER APOLOGETIC ATTEMPTS TO RE-“CHRISTEN” ME, PLEASE USE:

        KEVINVONZELL@GMAIL.COM

        I said that I would no longer abuse this forum with pettiness about Christian doctrine and your attempts to “minister” to my ignorance through APOLOGETIC attempts, but here I go:

        Linda, all U need do is glance over the brief synopses of each link on this page to reveal…

        MOSES HAS NO BASIS IN REAL HISTORY. SEE, I AM NOT ALONE IN OPINION, AMEN.

        https://cse.google.com/cse?cx=partner-pub-2698861478625135:3033704849&ie=UTF-8&q=moses%20not%20historical#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=moses%20not%20historical&gsc.page=1

        In fact, as our world wakes up, and smells BACON, they give up on any old Kosher Krist…

        http://jesusneverexisted.com

        Now, as far as Carl giving the sniff test to all those poopy injuns, of his, I don’t buy yer acct.

        The fact that Carl was left unchallenged in his rather rude assertions, means YOU agree…!

        Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/11/should-so-help-me-god-be-removed-from-u-s-citizenship-oath/#juO4lb9X2l8VDdu6.99

        1. John Owens says:

          Yep. He’s John Maher using a pseudonym. Still better than most of his junk, though.

          1. Kevin Von Zell says:

            I am going to look up JOHN MAHER, John… Because, neither I, nor Sr. Linda…

            Have ever heard of him, nor do we know him… So, as a defamation, it remains mute.

            I have always been, and remain Kevin…

            So, give up your cognitive dissonance…

            And, your apparent attempt at mud-slinging.

  59. Jean E Klingensmith says:

    Yeah I think it should stay bc most people have a god.

  60. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Open invitation to John, Linda & Carlo,

    I do not need you to practice your Christian Apogeticisms on me…

    I actually trained in Apologetics @ Western Conservative Baptist.

    And, actually taught my own course, in said subject, in a church…!

    This was, in an S.S. format, @ 1st Evangelical Church of Salem…

    If you are interested in the stated topic of this forum, our even ours…

    You might do best to stick with “sharing your truth with the world”…

    Not With Me; I Have Been Innoculated With the Cancer of Christ Yeshu,

    Rev. Kevin von Zell, Pastor… and Pro. Trained Evangelical Apologist…

    ANY FURTHER INQUERIES: kevinvonzell@gmail.com

  61. Kevin Von Zell says:

    I KNOW that I have been “saved” by an imaginary “hell” and that make me VERY HAPPY…

    I am a quite-well-adjusted semi-“retired” ordained Evangelical minister, who learned that…

    A direct ancestor, J.C.-supporting Emperor Constantine asked mother, Empress Helena…

    to find relics and sites that he could use to increase his power of rule over the masses…

    ONLY TO SET A BASILICA ON THE SITE OF “CRUCIFIXION” VS. “GARDEN TOMB” 🙁

    That ruling-system is well-in-place, in the USA, as we ask people to SWEAR to our God…

    Who happens to be CALLED, by US citizens, “Jesus Christ” when they “swear an oath…”

    Now, I personally have no aversion to “swearing an oath,” although our Bible warns thus:

    “Ma’at” 5:34  But I say unto you, Swear NOT at all; neither by heaven = GOD’S HOME…?!

    PROVISO AGAINST FURTHER RETRIBUTIONAL, APOLOGETIC FORWARD ATTACKS:

    Your Jesus’ Warning to All of Ye… Apologists, who defame a former minister of the gospel.

    Mat 23:24  Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 

    Mat 23:25  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of EXTORTION and EXCESS.

    &, THE OLD T., STOLEN, BY “CHRISTIANS,” WARNS YE, ALSO WITH THESE WORDS:

    1st Samuel 26:9b …who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD’S anointed, and be guiltless?

    This refers to my ordination, as being my “anointing;” it refers to you children, as GUILTY…

    I TOLD YOU BOTH, MY ACCUSERS, THAT I AM A PRO-TRAINED APOLOGIST. AMEN.

    FOR FURTHER “APOLOGETIC FUN,” AT MY EXPENSE: KEVINVONZELL@GMAIL.COM

  62. Kevin Von Zell says:

    John Owens
    November 22, 2017 at 6:47 am
    “You understand nothing of what you read, Kevin, because the eyes of your mind have been blinded by Lucifer, and thinking yourself enlightened, you walk in darkness and wish for others to do the same. The Devil must have used the seminary as a medium to enter your brain, and take from you the ability to reason.”

    REV. OWENS, PLEASE, ACTUALLY READ YOUR “BOOK”… & UNDERSTAND IT:

    Revelation 2:28  And I will give him the morning star. (This, in Greek, or Latin, IS “Lucifer.”)

    Revelation 22:16  I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (= LUCIFER, is His, your non-extant Lord’s, greek Name…)

    A fit apologist knows this, John. Why didn’t you when you held me in accusation…?! Why?

    Love ONLY, Always, Kevin von Zell

    PS ANSWER: Because, like ALL apologists, you are FORCED to twist, manipulate Bible.

    FOR MORE APOLOGETIC ABUSE & TWISTING, WRITE: kevinvonzell@gmail.com …!

    Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/11/should-so-help-me-god-be-removed-from-u-s-citizenship-oath/#oXSdxCUG6QUXJGkr.99

    1. John Owens says:

      You know not what you say, Kevin. You are chasing your own tail, and I daresay you have chased it right up your own backside. I pit you in your vain pride, thinking you know so much, when you know so little. The god of this world has blinded you. May God have mercy on you in the Day of Judgment.

      1. Kevin Von Zell says:

        To totally IGNORE the stated purpose of this forum shows who the actual “troll” is here folks… John Owens just uses this site to berate me needlessly — even after DAYS of silence on my part… Hell knows no fury like a man scorned? My guess is that Owens is actually “Bill Maher,” a tag that he tried unsucessfully to pin on me, as being some sort of creation of Owen’s own mind, whom he called “John Maher.” Do you research, Brother Owens before trying to call me Lucifer’s spawn, or John Maher, or whatever means U next use 2 strike @ me from thy pit of hell… LUCIFER’S THE GOD OF THIS WORLD AND JESUS CHRIST IS THE MONIKER HE USETH. AMEN-RA? THAT IS YOUR GOD “AMEN,” THE NAME YOU CALL UPON AT THE END OF EVERY PRAYER IN WHICH YOU SAY “IN YOUR NAME WE PRAY, AMEN!” SO THERE J.O.!:)

        1. John Owens says:

          You are a bitter, small-minded man, and again, I pity you for your vain conceit. May God show you your error, since you obviously will not listen to any reasoning that does not validate your mindset, Mr. Maher.

          1. Kevin Von Zell says:

            BTW, John Owens,

            Just how knowest thou I am not Humphreys who carefully researched & posted a website?

            CALLED JESUS NEVER EXISTED: http://jesusneverexisted.com by Kevn Humphreys…!

            Your beef seem to be, REALLY, with Humphreys. He has a means of communique on site…

            So, why not level your invective against our True Antichrist, the Leader of our Movement?

            Nip Us In The Bud, (Butt) Your Assiness, the Character Assassin of Dr. Zeller-Maher, J.O.?

            Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2017/11/should-so-help-me-god-be-removed-from-u-s-citizenship-oath/#99lCkWBEWcjsJ0o2.99

  63. James 'Jimbo" Jones says:

    Simply pass a law stating that one must be an American citizen to file a “lawsuit” against anyone/anything in America. NEXT?

    1. j says:

      Simply pass a law? This will permit a safe haven for all the drugs companies poisoning other countries & will more to the USA for immunity.

      1. Chuck says:

        I do support the idea that an American citizen can only be sued by another American citizen….. corporations are another story.

        I work in an insurance defense law firm…… the amount of illegals making bogus claims for a payday is UNBELIEVABLE. Suing Americans just hoping for a check….costing us all tax money through Courts, as well as jacking up all our insurance through fraud.

        And because this is Libtard New York…… Libtard judges let it continue even after it is discovered the illegal is using a stolen SSN number.

        1. j says:

          Simple VS loop holes? Unless there is willful abuse (trafficking of immigrant women, etc). I can see a point to LIMITING who can sue & for what when a non-resident is a plaintiff. If A crime is involved during or related to said suit, I would be for heavy restriction / limitation on illegals having free reign in various “systems”.

          1. John Owens says:

            Sounds fairly reasonable.

          2. Chuck says:

            As explained to me by a Judge…..”In legal reality, no crime can be done against a person with no legal record of being where said crime occurred”

            Now, human trafficking and such need to be hunted down, but even there, no lawsuits should exist unless State vs. Trafficker. The trafficked can sue in the country they were abducted from.

  64. Minister Timothy Calrstead says:

    The immigrant should get his facts straight. Look now a-days there are many
    “gods” <—- ( I am talking about their god not my GOD). See with every religion there is a "god" like buddah, allah, and what ever they believe. Soto them there is another "god" which is theirs. That guy is like every other person we respect their beliefs but they don't want to respect ours. Look everyone has their belief and what ever god they worship they can decide they are taking an oath in their "god".

  65. j says:

    As far as I have been taught & understand my studies of many religions…. . There is only 1 God… God = LOVE.. God IS love.. There is only one love… There are copious ways to express, assigned icons to love / god. But still love is love. (non-egotistical love = God). The verbiage should resonate & be understood as toggled in all readings.

    1. Minister Timothy Calrstead says:

      J- look I am a Christian Minister and I know there is no other God but you have to say that or else they get upset and argue I know there is only one but when you tell them that they get upset. Again I know there is one God and he is the father of JESUS CHRIST! Also I was taught that false gods are the lowercase g and the one and only TRUE GOD is uppercase. That is why I put other people’s god in quotation marks and in lower case.

      1. Kevin Von Zell says:

        Dear Rev. Tim,

        But, according to the Holy Bible, Jesus is not a man, neither is He the “son of man,” and, therefore YHWH’s true, living Son, is He…?!

        MY “PROOF TEXT” FOR THIS ASSERTION OF THE TRUTH:
        Numbers 23:19a  God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent…

        PLEASE, SEE: http;//jesusneverexisted.com

        Love ONLY, Always, Rev. Dr. Kevin von Zell, D.D., MDiv, B.Mus.

        PS MY QUESTION: So, why ask foreigners to swear by Him…?!

        1. J says:

          All the quotes of scripture ppl post that I read in here as “examples” for their points. I read much of it 180^ different than the pointers intend. 23:19 is a parodox to me.

    2. Kevin Von Zell says:

      No Greater Love Than This, Hath Thy God…?! Love Only, Always, Dr. Kevin

      HOLY BIBLE: Psalm 137:9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes …

      biblehub.com/psalms/137-9.htm

      Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

      … little ones you will dash in pieces, and their women with child you will rip up.” …

      2nd Kings 8:12  And Hazael said, Why weepeth my lord? And he answered, Because I know the evil that thou wilt do unto the children of Israel: their strong holds wilt thou set on fire, and their young men wilt thou slay with the sword, and wilt dash their children, and rip up their women with child.

      Hosea 13:16  Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

      QUESTION: ISN’T THAT A LOT OF RIPPING & DASHING FOR LOVE GOD?

  66. Kevin Von Zell says:

    BTW, John Owens,

    Just how knowest thou I am not Humphreys who carefully researched & posted a website?

    CALLED JESUS NEVER EXISTED: http://jesusneverexisted.com by Kevn Humphreys…!

    Your beef seem to be, REALLY, with Humphreys. He has a means of communique on site…

    So, why not level your invective against our True Antichrist, the Leader of our Movement?

    Nip Us In The Bud, (Butt) Your Assiness, the Character Assassin of Dr. Zeller-Maher, J.O.?

    1. John Owens says:

      Such infantile lunatic raving. A mind truly IS a terrible thing to waste, but alas, that boat has sailed far away over the horizon in your case.

      1. Kevin Von Zell says:

        Rev. John Owens,

        You aren’t even a REAL pastor, but a pEster… mas un POSEUR!

        http://jesusneverexisted,com Hay-Zeus Nunca Existo…!

        Why don’t you pick on someone more your own size, pequeno?!

        Solo Amor, Siempre, Rev. Dr. Kevin von Zell, D.D., M.Div., B.Mus.

        1. John Owens says:

          Du wirst wahnsinniger, nehme ich wahr.

        2. John Owens says:

          O, y déjeme enseñarlo apuntar la ñ corréctamente: toque ALT con 164 en las teclas numéricas.
          En su propio computadora, en procesora de palabras, busque “carácteres especiales.” Allí puede encontrar todas maneras de letras de otros idiomas. Recuerde que muchas palabras que acaban con -ma como programa, diagrama, idioma, y muchas otras, llegaron al Latín por el Griego, e aunque acaban con -a, todavía son masculinos, así el artículo u otro adjetivo también tiene que ser masculino.

  67. Joseph says:

    It’s pure nonsense, can the person tell us what else he or she avoids that has any trace of God mentioned. Which train, vehicle, hotel, loo, supermarket just to mention a few does he use. That is hypocrisy of highest order.

  68. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Dear Brother John, AKA “King David,”

    Okay, I AM impressed with your command of three languages, but not impressed with your “command” of apologetics. Still, you ARE great enough to take our little “GOD & pony” show to the small screens of YouTube and into church platforms, where we all debate…

    At Full Throttle to His “Glory,” Rev. Dr. Kevin von Zell, D.D., M.Div., B.Mus. Kin

    PS I really mean it. I have fallen in love with both you AND Linda, for your caring attitudes towards me and your unflagging FAITH…!!!

    It seemeth high time that we take our Show out of this Cavern Club and into a public-paying arena. This profiteth NOTHING. We=$$$

    So, I wish to make this appeal to both you, Brother John, AKA King David, and Sister Linda AKA “The Magdalene” to take me up on it!

    Please, direct ALL further correspondence to kevinvonzell@gmail.com, as this channel of communique closes as of this 1 time offer!

    ACT NOW! JOIN ME LIVE ON STAGE, OR THROUGH TAPED DEBATE ON OUR YOUTUBE CHANNEL(S!) WHIP OUT YOUR FONE!

    BTW, I am still working on my “character,” if I wish to assume one: maybe one of the BIble villains, or maybe even Anti-Christ Himself!

  69. Kevin Von Zell says:

    Okay, I take it back, Rev. John Owens, HERE you sound more like a literate scholar, and less like a THUG,as when you mention SHIT.

    You are a GREAT apologist and this really demands, cries out from the earth, that you take up a larger mantle upon yourlself as the

    “FIGHTING APOLOGIST, DEFEFENDER OF THE FAITH,” Love ONLY, Always, Rev. Kevin von Zell

    PS Please, pray on it, and consider taking me up on my FINAL OFFER to continue our battle in the PUBLIC ARENA. Kill AntiChrist…!!!

    I would play the ANTICHRIST, on stage,, and you would take up the broad-two-edged-sword of the Holy Bible with which to SLAY me.

    Get it? It would be much like professional wrestling, much of it scripted, where you could (almost always) win over the wicked von Zell!

    And, your victories would be applauded by a loving, cheering audience of PAYING witnesses to the carnality of our BRUTAL BATTLE!

    Canst thou not see it NOW, with your name and our photos in every newspaper across our fair land? Maybe even TV appearances?!

    THE ABOVE STATEMENTS CONSTITUTE A GENUINE, BONA-FIDE OFFER OF EMPLOYMENT W/ “VON ZELL ANTICHRIST, INC..”

    cc LINDA, the Magdalene

Leave a Comment