A Virginia school board has had it with “sexually explicit” books in school libraries, voting 6-0 to conduct an audit to remove any such titles from school libraries across Spotsylvania County.
And some school board members want to take things a step further: They’d like to see the offending books burned.
Books Get Dewey Decimated
The Spotsylvania County School Board has already instructed staff to remove several offending books following a complaint from local parents Christina and Robert Burris, parents of a Riverbend High School student. They were initially upset by the amount of LGBTQ fiction that they found on their child’s school library app.
Then they discovered Adam Rapp’s book “33 Snowfish”, an award-winning book that includes adult themes such as sex, pedophilia, prostitution, and homosexual relationships. That was the final straw, apparently. The parents brought their concerns to the school board, saying that books with such explicit content simply do not belong in school libraries where teenagers can check them out.
The board acted quickly in response. They voted 6-0 to remove all “sexually explicit” books from the school library, and are now planning a full audit of the library collection – a step that would likely result in many more books being banned.
But for two school board members, even this response didn't go far enough.
Fahrenheit 2021
“I think we should throw those books in a fire,” said school board member Rabih Abuismail. "I guess we live in a world now that our public schools would rather have kids read about gay pornography than Christ."
“There are some bad, evil-related material that we have to be careful of and look at,” said another board member, Kirk Twigg. “I’d like to see the books before we burn them so we can identify within our community that we are eradicating this bad stuff.”
Criticism quickly mounted online, with some drawing comparisons to fascist regimes that engaged in book burning.
Others drew parallels to the dystopian novel "Fahrenheit 451" and wondered where the efforts will stop.
Many are concerned that a crusade to ban all "sexually explicit" titles would mean the removal – and potential burning – of some very popular books that happen to have challenging themes. A few that have already been banned in other school libraries include:
The Handmaid's Tale
The Kite Runner
I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings
LGBTQ Titles Targeted
It's worth noting that books with LGBTQ themes have been the most targeted for censorship in recent years. According to the American Library Association, Alex Gino’s novel “George” – featuring a transgender child – was the most challenged book in 2020. And in 2019, eight out of ten of the most challenged books had LGBTQ themes or content.
LGBTQ advocates say these books are crucial for gay teens, and that removing them from school shelves will only harm children, not protect them.
“Please, leave the queer books on the library shelves, where the queer teens can find them,” said author Maia Kobabe, whose graphic novel “Gender Queer” has been banned in libraries across the country. “As a queer teen, I desperately needed them. And the queer teens of today need them too."
What is your reaction?
143 comments
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Gerardo Salazar
It begins by burning a sexually explicit book, then one that contains uncomfortable historical facts and those by philosophers and thinkers that disagree with their beliefs and then, before we know, the self appointed vigilantes will target books written by Communist, Jewish, Liberals, etc. and specially those considered subversive to THEIR way of life. Welcome to 1930s Germany, USA version, let’s burn everything and lock those who disagree in concentration camps. Have fun.
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Chris
This is a public school system. Why is religion getting involved? If these people want their children to read about Jesus then do it at home or send them to a private religious institution.
Not letting children learn about who they share this planet with will only serve to maintain the division and hatred and bigotry their parents are instilling in them. It'll be a shock to their system if they wander into the big wide world away from their small minded shelters and meet the people represented in those book they burned.
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pjm
Exactly!
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Rev Mark D
Well you know you are not thinking clearly. If you ever actually read the Bible, in virtually every version published, you will see that Jesus was and taught just about the most tolerant and welcoming messages not anyone has ever preached, he put it into practice, and he made the messages pray explicit and clear. So maybe your problem is that you have already banned and burned a certain very important book, which had you looked into it, would teach exactly the messages you want taught, the messages you think are important, and did so repeatedly. They think Jesus Is God, so those messages of Jesus are really quite a thorat ATIV. It matters not what is written, but who is doing the teaching and interpreting to see the messages. Any idiot can get what they want out of the Bible oh, and that's the real problem, which is actually untouched by any measure concerning book banning. Also see my comment a little earlier or above and add that to this. Take a Xanax or something, this little book ban mean zero, and really it isn't a slippery slope, if we're on a slope it isn't because of these books or because of a local school library policy. Bigger problems cause this problem, you're really focusing on our tiny symptom that leads nowhere on its own.
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Chris
Rev Mark,
I've read the bible. In fact, I spent several years in religious schools specifically studying the bible. I'm not sure why you think I haven't since I didn't say anything negative about it.
I did go back and read your other comments as you suggested, and I don't disagree that such things are readily available to anyone who wants to find it. My point is that this is public school system and as such religion has no place in it. I know many parents who attempt to shield their children from the realities of the world, to the detriment of the child. If a parent wants their children to learn religious beliefs they need to do so at home or send their children to private institutions. It's not up to a public school to teach one specific religion.
Where you see this as one tiny symptom which means nothing, I see it as one symptom of a larger problem taking place across the country. School boards are deciding not to teach certain things which don't coincide with their religion. They're using non-factual texts in classrooms. And with the recent political climate of Evangelicals trying to push their religious beliefs into law for everyone, this is concerning.
I have no problem with the teachings of Jesus. I think he said many great things. I do have a problem with people who do bad things in his name, though. They claim to follow him and yet act in a decidedly opposite manner, and want to force this perversion of the teachings of Jesus into law.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Rev Mark D: When you say "The Bible", let us not forget that includes the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, and the Old Testament (as cited earlier in this thread) is full of those very things these short-sighted individuals are trying to ban.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Censorship is ignorance presented as protector of or defender against things ill-defined. A republic, such as the United States, is a free market of ideas, and our school system should reflect that. Furthermore, these are subjective judgements based on the biases of adults who think that destroying the medium which embodies the idea destroys the idea. These adults generally operate from a worldview which assumes that LGBTQI+ literature is evangelistic propaganda - because that it what these critics of independent and critical thought would have on the shelves if it were their choice. This kind of "torches and pitchforks" mentality has no place in a 21st century first world republic. This business of attempting to symbolically destroy ideas contrary to the mainstream borders on the fascistic. Those who even consider of have the audacity to propose it should be ashamed of daring to call themselves Americans in the same breath.
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Gary Richard Noce
Of course the books in question are not pornagraphic. These people are extremists. Oh Daniel Grey, you must be one of those trumptydumpty people spreading crazy and sick lies. My goodness you are hateful. Stop the hate, stop the lies !!! Robert, I can't agree with you more. Extremism has got to go.
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Daniel Gray
still calling names because you cant prove me wrong. You do know that this damages any point you are trying to make
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Gary
“Where They Have Burned Books, They Will End Up Burning People” - Heinrich Heine
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Tom
The problem is not with the school library... The problem is with the parents and guardians, who have projected their own fears and curiosity on their children, and, rather than take responsibility, they blame the school for making them face their child-rearing deficiencies...
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Weldon Joe Horton
Fascists can burn books, but not truth or ideas.
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Herbert Moore
Wonder how long it will take them to realize they can't burn the internet?
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Mark Hannon
I would like a list of every book they want to get rid of so I can make sure I have a hardcover of every single one. I tend to like banned books. One of my favorites was the series, "His Dark Materials".
I remember Literature classes with books written while sex and STD's had to be hidden in the text so they would be published. I wonder if the U.S. is headed toward this bleak view.
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Lionheart
I’m all for books of religion being correctly placed in the “Fiction” section in libraries and schools. It would help children to see what they truly are.
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
CHL, are you in favor of books by the Donald and other conservative like-"minded" people being correctly placed in the "Fiction" section in libraries and schools, to help children see what they truly are?!!
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John D. Partin
Are you also for all of the Donald's books being correctly placed in the "Fiction" section in libraries and schools, to help children see what they truly are?!!
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Lionheart
I’m all for placing all books written by modern day politicians from all political sides John in the fictional category. Thank you for asking.
🦁❤️
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John D. Partin
As George Orwell (your former countryman) wrote in Animal Farm: "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others". Likewise, even if all books written by modern politicians might deserve to be in the fictional category, some deserve to be there far more than others do and the books written by Trumpelstiltskin definitely deserve to be there far more than anyone else's books do! This also raises the question why, if you now admit that the Donald's books should be in the Fiction section of libraries, you have been such a fanatical supporter of his all through his alleged "presidency" and still prefer him today, unless you are a supporter of fictions and lies?! Why are you cynical about Christianity and its "lies", but totally gullible about the Donald's and conservative lies, instead of cynical across the board about all lies?
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Lionheart
It seems to me John, that President Trump, and President Biden all have their failings, as do most politicians. I tend to vote for the party rather than the individual. Both have their failings though, and for me, the Democrat party has more failings than the Republican Party.
As an example, I'm not in favor of the current open border policies, and I think that long term it's going to bite us in the proverbial butt. I'm all for helping those who are genuinely struggling in a humanitarian way coming from genuine war-torn countries, but for me, too many are jumping on the band wagon trying to get here from neighboring countries because we have a better standard of living. I'm also not in favor of shutting down our oil pipelines, which as you can see, is causing the obvious issues at the gas pumps. I am also not in favor of trading with China.
Those who criticized President Trump during his term of office saying they'd do a far better job of containing Covid (Biden), and who criticized him for the number of Covid deaths during his term of office, have now been surpassed by the Biden administration, ie more deaths, and Covid still surges on. The left wing media is noticeably very quiet about it, but wouldn't be if President Trump was still in office.
Of the Democrats, I actually quite like Tulsi Gabbard. To me, she seems to talk a lot of sense. It's okay to disagree John, and no doubt you will. That's the beauty of freedom and liberty, and the 1st Amendment....right? Thank you for responding, asking for clarity.
🦁♥️
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Ruth Veale
Whether we like it or not, the LGBTQ is here to stay and there's nothing we can do. I really don't see how burning book is going to stop this.
People are who they are, my daughter is a Lesbian, I don't love her any less and a accept her as she's my daughter and I love her. I'm here for her if she wants.
If you burn books, people will be more and more inquisitive, just don't make it a big deal and just go about your daily business.
The world would be a very boring place if people were same.
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
I disagree. We can stop the contagion and return the LGB to the status of an important small minority. We can also reverse the trans contagion phenomenon that is killing children. It is our responsibility as moral leaders to do so.
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Tom
What transgender persons are killing children? This is some wild bigoted nonsense you're spreading. "Contagion"? What? Being non-heterosexual isn't a disease, it's biologically programed in a person's genes from birth.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Kevin Joseph Kervick: People who are LGBTQI+ (you omitted transgender, queer, intersex and others) are not suffering from any sort of infectious disease, as that is what "contagion" actually means. You should consult the current version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM) used by mental health professionals and see. I also think it might be beneficial to this discussion if you could elaborate on what exactly you mean when you refer to "moral leadership", as I'm not even certain you're entirely clear on what the concept of 'morality' itself constitutes: as it has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity, BTW.
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Walter Riggs
This de-escalated quickly: https://fredericksburg.com/news/local/education/spotsylvania-school-board-rescinds-explicit-book-ban/article_2c767e3e-a3ea-540a-b748-fab654fa9286.html
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CB Cuff
If said books are already in the library, someone at sometime approved them. Possibly they'd like to burn all the science, medical, history, and 'romance' books that contain information they don't understand or takes sides with. Ahhh to be 'Born Again', with half a brain.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
Please. The Catholic church promotes clergy on child pedophilia, that's why they want to block other forms of sex. Catholicism & the Republican Party need to go.
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
But there is an important attempt by militant Catholics to expunge the church of its homosexuality and predator problem. Check out the group called Militant Catholic for more information. They are an inspiring group trying to fix the problem.
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Daniel Gray
Oh really? then why have the most people who have been convicted for attempts to have sex with teens and prostitutes, according to the FBI Crime Report of 2020 clearly show that its the DEMOCRATS who do this by over 75% And you cant dispute this as these are the reports that come from every County State and local police agency in the US. In fact just recently you had a man and a woman who ran a childerns group BOTH being charged with sexual assault on children under the age of 18 and by a simple search you can see they were both Registered Democrats. Do a simple Google Search and out of the over 39 million sites saying this pops up, less then 5 million come back to GOP/Republicans, the rest are clearly Democrats and you can find that out by a simple search of the local voting records.
You need to keep your opinions to yourself child.
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Gary Richard Noce
Of course the books in question are not pornagraphic. These people are extremists. Oh Daniel Grey, you must be one of those trumptydumpty people spreading crazy and sick lies. My goodness you are hateful. Stop the hate, stop the lies !!!
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Daniel Gray
take your own advice child. I stated fact no skin off my nose if the best you can do is to lie and make up some myth so as to sooth your feelings after being proved wrong.
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Lyndy Borden
Please cite your sources properly. The FBI Crime report doesn't deal with political affiliation. Once again, you're wrong.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but they do. All you have to do is take the name as they already tell you the address, and then do a simple search on the voters rolls which are public knowledge and you will come to the same conclusion as I posted here. Sorry to bust your bubble child.
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Tom
The FBI's Crime Data Explorer, which shows the data from the crime report, does not provide any personal information about the persons committing the crimes. If you would provide a link to the information you claim exists you could end this whole debate but since you won't (probably because you can't) you don't have a leg to stand on.
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Tom
That's a really interesting and concerning statistic. Where did you find that data broken out by political preference? I haven't found a website yet that lists that info but I'd be very interested in reading the report you found if you can provide me a link.
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Daniel Gray
FBI Crime Report and the US Library of Congress as well as the AP and UPI archives.
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Tom
I haven't found anything on those websites where you could break it down by party preference. Do you have a link to the web page you found that information on?
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Daniel Gray
simple use of google will set you right
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Alan Meunier
So, basically, you cannot provide the requesterd information (because it does not exist). Did it come from Fox "news"? OAN? Breitbart? In my 60 years on earth I have seem many more GOP congressmen get arrested for sex crimes than any other demographic. I am a data scientist and know for a fact the data from the FBI does not include party affiliation.
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Daniel Gray
I can and did. Whats wrong? mad because every time you post utter horse droppings and it gets proved to be false, then you get upset and try and claim it came from Fox? What part of the FBI Crime report did you seemingly not understand?
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Tom
What part of the FBI Crime Report breaks this down by political party preference? I've used every Google search trick I know to find the information you claim exists but I still haven't found it.
Maybe I'm terrible at using a Google search to find the correct information and that's why I can't find anything. This is why I have asked multiple times if you could provide me with a link to where you found this information. Just telling us to use Google doesn't provide us with information and I'm very interested in learning more about this data if it does indeed exist.
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Daniel Gray
So basically I did provide information. So are you admitting that you cant use a search engine?
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Tom
Telling someone to use Google isn't providing information. This is even more true since when I use Google to try and find the information you claim exists nothing comes up that supports your claim.
You could easily provide us a link to the info you found (if it does actually exist) but so far you've declined to do so. Maybe you are better at using a Google search than I am, which is why I'm politely asking you to help me locate the data you are referencing.
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Daniel Gray
So you are admitting that even with the name and the city and state they live in that you refuse to use a simple google search of the voting records to prove exactly what I said was fact. And now you expect people to believe what you claim?
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Tom
Where in the FBI Crime Report does it provide you with the name and city of each person who commits a crime? As far as I can tell, it doesn't.
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Daniel Gray
Ok since you need to be educated. The FBI crime report is made up of the arrest reports of ALL the police departments from local to county to state to federal. They include the name of the person and what they were charged with. Now its not that bloody difficult to take the name of the police department and do a simple google search for where they are located and then use the name of the person in that location to get all personal information on them as police records unless sealed are public records meaning they are open to anyone. Then you just do a simple search on that citys or countys board of elections and it will tell you what political party they belong to.
Not that hard at all.
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Robert Gagnon
In 1970 I was ten, as was my neighbor John who as an alter boy. He told me what a priest was doing to him. He sad he'd told his parents and they beat him for saying such a disgusting thing about a priest. Saw the same ignorance with a friend of my daughters parents many years ago. Christians would rather tolerate the abuse of their children than be ostracized for calling out their leaders. It is normally those who complain the loudest that are the most guilty. I don;t believe sexually provocative (titillating) books should be in a school library. But informative books should be available for those seeking answers.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but I find this very hard to believe.
And if a parent wants these books (straight or homosexual) in their personal library in their home they are more then welcome to purchase them. But they have absolutely NO right nor authority to introduce them to anyone elses children without their permission. To do so even in a school library, is and can be charged with distributing pornography and they can lose their license and spend time in prison.
So again what you do with your children is up to you, but you have absolutely no authority to try and have gay or straight sexual books placed in a public or school library for under aged children to be able to get their hands on.
You want these books, then buy them yourself
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Gerardo Salazar
Promotes? Please, by telling lies you do not earn extra points. An example: “ THE TENNESSEAN | 4:06 pm CST February 18, 2020 The Southern Baptist Convention's Executive Committee expelled a Texas church Tuesday for employing a pastor who is a registered sex offender.”.
Who is protecting pedophiles?
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Robert James Ruhnke
The Catholic Church literally shuffles around predatory priests instead of throwing them in jail yearly. Our goddamn society lets rapists go free daily. The southern baptist church firing one registered sex offender was done as a means to protect the other sexual predators there who are unregistered. An that’s a lot of them.
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Gerardo Salazar
Not only among diverse clergy; you’ll find them all around us disguised as doctors, musicians, teachers and even family members. I’m an ardent advocate of life in prison/death for these asocial monsters.
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Charles Jude Platt
Welcome to "Nazi" America.
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John P Maher
JUST ANOTHER CRIME STARTED BY THE G O Pigs, ALL BOOKS ARE GREAT INPUT, UNLESS YOUR STUPID, WHO WROTE THE BIBLE ?
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David Arthur Lewis
If they really really want to ban sexually explicit books, they should start with the Bible. David and Bathsheba, jus' sayyin'.
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David Arthur Lewis
The really cool thing about this is... Every one of those books is available for free on the Internet. But Not-See's must have someone/something to hate. It gives their small lives purpose and meaning.
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Cheryl Anne Hamm
Not only have we not learned from the past we are now head down, mind closed, barreling back to darker ages. GOD granted us free will to live our lives and decide for ourselves if we want to believe or not, yet so many from religious organizations seek to tread upon the free will of those who have different ideologies. Don't see too many self-appointed "Gods ambassadors" doing actual God's work.
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John Anderson
TL;DWTR: GROW UP, PEOPLE. People will still do these things, but they will do them under less than ideal conditions.
If you want to stop these books getting out there, STOP DRAWING ATTENTION TO THEM. Burning a book only destroys that particular copy, there's another million or so out there. You CANNOT stop an idea, nor can it be successfully banned after being expressed. The only thing a parent can do is make sure that your kids are mature enough to understand. I think it is very strange how these people get so up in arms over something that Yeshua never comments on (the only references to homosexuality in any form in the New Testament are from the words of Saul of Tarsis, in the epistles), and yet claim to be standing up for the faith put forward by him. As a library tech myself, it's far more dangerous to burn a book than to simply let it rot unused on the shelf, because drawing attention to it will mean that it is signed out more, by people wondering what all the fuss is about. When "Erotica" by Madonna came out, the wait list was often over a year. Why? Because people were curious to see why everyone was so up in arms about it. The book itself was of questionable quality, but the hype made it sell millions of copies. Not everyone is the same, and that's a good thing. Getting information out to those who need it to realize that they are still members of society (and therefore cutting down on suicide rates) is better than forcing them into closets again. The Handmaid's Tale is over 30 years old, but it got added to these lists again because people saw things in it that they connected (in their OWN minds) with things that were happening in the real world. It was written well before these occurrences. Repealing Roe v Wade won't stop abortions, it will only stop safe ones. People will continue to do what they want or need to do, forcing it behind closed doors will only make it so that safeguards are removed.
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Robert Edward Szekely
John Anderson: side comment - you stated that "the only references to homosexuality in any form in the New testament are from the words of Saul of Tarsis [sic], in the epistles". Could you please identify which ones, as the only reference I've found is in the Old Testament in Leviticus 18:12, which is directed at Levite priests. I tool believe that quotes in the Bible are often pulled out of context and weaponized, so I am curious which Pauline quotes could be included in that regarding LGBTQI people, so that I may deconstruct and refute them.
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Dan Anderson
In 1972/73, the Placentia Unified School District in Placentia, California, banned "Jonathan Livingston Seagull" because it HINTED of an abstract form of reincarnation. It amazes me how terrified some people get when something which is slightly to one side of their belief system will trigger them off to where they get hostile.
Why?
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Kevin Charles Stoneburner
It starts with burning written works, and ends with burning the writers themselves.
I’ve never understood the mindset of “Forbidden Knowledge”, or “I’m the parent, and I said so.”
Let them explore their intellectual pursuits. Invite argument. If your position is so weak it cannot withstand debate with a child, perhaps it’s time to rethink your position.
We are training young humans to become adults, thereby making ourselves obsolete. That’s the plan. Do not punish or prevent them from “Thinking without permission.” It’s something that needs practice, or they’ll grow into adults that act without thinking.
(Sorry, I’ll yield the pulpit now.)
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Kathryn Darcy Smith
I googled for some images of the book "Genderqueer". It had comic-like illustrations of a boy sucking off another boy... yeah... kind of a trigger there. Probably should leave that out of the school. If the school board says it's not pornography, then what is? I'm a member of the LGBTQ++++ community and I find it inappropriate for the age demographic for which it is available.
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Tom
By definition, pornography is "printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings"
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Edwin Merle Waltz
I don’t believe in book burning but agree they don’t need to be around for kids School to learn three R’s. Not about being gay
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Edwin Merle Waltz
I don’t believe in book burning but agree they don’t need to be around for kids School to learn three R’s. Not about being gay
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Edwin Merle Waltz
I don’t believe in book burning but agree they don’t need to be around for kids School to learn three R’s. Not about being gay
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Edwin Merle Waltz
I don’t believe in book burning but agree they don’t need to be around for kids School to learn three R’s. Not about being gay
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David Arthur Lewis
Edwin, how many times are you going to post the same message?
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Daniel Gray
In a public library put off in a section reserved for 18 and over, I would say absolutely not and to leave them alone. But in a SCHOOL library? What mental moron would ever think it was a good idea to allow pornography in a public or private school library with kids under the age of 18? I hope anyone who thinks this is a good idea knows its a federal felony to pander obscene materials to children. It violates 18 U.S.C. § 1465; 18 U.S.C. § 1466 and can land you in a federal prison for at least 10 to 20 years and be fined upwords of 250,000 PER instance (book/magazine/movie/etc) PER DAY! And it makes no difference if its straight pornography or homosexual pornography, federal law says it CANNOT be allowed to let children under the age of 18 see such stuff.
Now what you allow your own children to see while at home is your business, but once you wander into the public arena, then you are in deep trouble and they have absolutely no legal leg to stand on as there are laws like this in every state as well as the federal laws. So if you think its ok to let children see pornography in a public school or even in a private school (colleges/universities do not count) then just go ahead and put in NAMBA or Homosexual or penthouse/etc in a school library and see what happens to you.
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Tom
I think most people are objecting to what these groups are considering as "pornography". Do these books actually contain pornographic material or do they simply detail relationships that are deemed to be "immoral" by these parents? If they are labeling books such as "I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings" as "pornographic" then that would be a problem since there is no pornography in that book. Writing stories about a homosexual relationship or transgender persons might be viewed unfavorably by some groups but it wouldn't be pornography.
By definition, pornography is "printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings" so discussing a sexual relationship wouldn't immediately be pornography unless it is written for erotic purposes.
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Gary Richard Noce
Of course the books in question are not pornagraphic. These people are extremists.
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Daniel Gray
Poor little lost soul. mad when proved wrong and you have to start calling names now?
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Daniel Gray
Didnt read the story did you? here is a quote from it "adult themes such as sex, pedophilia, prostitution, and homosexual relationships." Now if they can put you in prison for sexting, then you can be put in prison for this.
Or are you saying that you would be ok with a school allowing your 10 year old child access to books such as these?
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Tom
I did read the story which I why I know that this was a parent of a high school student, not a 10 year old child, having access to this book. I would probably be uncomfortable with my fifth grade student reading this book but I wouldn't have the same reservations about my high school student reading this as long as I was comfortable with their level of maturity.
A book that discusses "adult themes such as sex, pedophilia, prostitution, and homosexual relationships" is not pornography unless the content is written for erotic purposes. I have not read the book myself (and I'm assuming neither have you) so I can't speak specifically about the content of "33 Snowfish" but from what I've gathered, it doesn't present these adult themes as erotic but as sad and horrific experiences that the subjects of the novel are trying to deal with.
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Daniel Gray
Seemingly you didnt as you forgot to mention the AGE of the student. as well as this being a freshman and well under the age of 18 which makes pandering porn to them a state and federal felony.
Try again
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Tom
Where in this article does it say the student was a freshman?
What about these books makes them pornography? Simply because they discuss adult topics doesn't make them porn.
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Daniel Gray
it clearly states that in the local news. And it clearly states that this child was taken there without the parents permission
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Tom, I think it meant the student was new meat.
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Lyndy Borden
They want to burn books by Margaret Atwood (A Handmaid's Tale) and Maya Angelou (I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings). I'm guessing you haven't read them because, you don't seem like the type of person who can read, but these books have nothing to do with pedophilia, and don't have much in the way of sexual themes, these are books that are fine for the average high schooler to read.
If all you Christian snowflakes want is for your kids to read the bible and only the bible, your kids are going to get dumber (and if you look at the education levels in the states, you'll see that's already happeneing).
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Daniel Gray
No sorry, these books should be left alone. And if you want porn available to your children then you do it on YOUR time, not in a public setting. Thats why you wont go to a public library and see Penthouse or Hustler or adult movies available to borrow or read or rent. And thats why you are seeing books with adult themes graphically stating straight or bisexual or homosexual sex being removed. Again if you want to allow these books for your children, then do so. But you have NO authority to force a school or a public library to make them available just to sooth your feelings.
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Reverend Gary
It was better "in the beginning" when everyone was naked and hid nothing, but there was only one. "Adam" was all alone in the "garden of eden."
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Rev Mark D
Well I don't think I ever learned a whole lot from books after I switched to the now universally available internet and phone apps and phone services, on which all kinds of sex is available and extremely explicit, from A to Z, and because they are multi-sensory and visually available, Plus not only social medium but social groups is where the kids learn perhaps 99% of what they learn when it comes to this topic...thereby always far more effective teaching media than some non-school-library book...as anybody even passing familiar with and competent with child development, teaching and learning, and developmental and clinical psychology, and knows much of anything about kids anyway, I can certainly attest.
When the flooding sea or river has broken down a large part of the dike, you don't accomplish the reverse by taping over a finger or or a thimble's worth of wall. So BFD.
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Rev Mark D
Has it occurred to any of these people that just about any book around is now available as an e-book? Or that one tiny little chip can hold several hundred books at a time? Some chips are even 8 Ball to store over a thousand bucks oh, and we're talkin chips that are less than half a natural fingernail in size. Some software rather handily available even allows you to go in and highlight the good parts.
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
We learned this month that 37% of young adults now identify as LGBTQ, which is an absurd notion, given that the best research has the actual number around 3%. This strongly suggests social contagion at work. We also learned this month that educators in LGBTQ clubs are literally "stalking" youngsters' social media footprints for opportunities to recruit them. Put these two stories together and you see something dastardly at work. Kids lives are being destroyed by unnecessarily dragging them through this sexual morass. I believe this is child abuse for diversity, equity, and inclusion cash. The more kids they can convert the more status and cash they get.
We are also seeing growing calls for acceptance of "minor attraction" and we also know from research that gay men often say their first sexual experiences were with gay adult men. Celebrities like Milo Yiannapolis have blown the cover on this dark open secret. The Catholic Church is a haven for homosexual men hitting on boys. 87% of the sexual abuse victims over the years were adolescent boys abused by a gay priest.
Is it possible these gay-themed sex books are grooming impressionable and insecure kids into a lifestyle they would otherwise not enter? I think so.
Our society is too sexualized. Any effort to remove sexually-explicit material is a good thing. Ministers should be on the side of chastity and innocence. "Burning" the books was hyperbole and meant to make a statement that these materials are harmful. I wholeheartedly support these parents trying to protect their kids.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Kevin - what is the source for those statistics you've cited?
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Daniel Gray
he wont tell you as he cant, they are made up. Even the last US Census showed only .5% of the population claim to be LGBTQ, and if he does reply he will give you some source that has not had their paper peer reviewed meaning its just their opinion and not based on fact
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Tom
The US Census doesn't ask respondents about their sexual preferences so, no, the last census does not show that. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045219
A Gallup poll published in February 2021 estimates that 5.6% of Americans identify as LGBT. https://news.gallup.com/poll/329708/lgbt-identification-rises-latest-estimate.aspx
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Daniel Gray
How amusing, it clearly says that this myth is an ESTIMATE and NOT FACT. According to the US Census, less then 1% identify as LGBTQ.
Keep on with your myths child.
Oh and here is one more thing to prove you dont know what you are talking about
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/11/census-bureau-survey-explores-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity.html
Census Bureau Survey Explores Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity
Guess you are wrong yet again and the Census DOES keep track of LGBTQ people as well as straight ones as well.
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Tom
The decennial US Census does not ask for sexual orientation and gender identity.
The link you provided gets its information from a separate survey (the U.S. Census Bureau’s Household Pulse Survey) which started asking about sexual orientation and gender identity in July of this year, 2021.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/08/household-pulse-survey-updates-sex-question-now-asks-sexual-orientation-and-gender-identity.html
Additionally the link you provided has data at the end of the article that was obtained from this survey which lists responses to the question "Which of the following best represents how you think of yourself?" Of respondents, 3.3% answered that question with "Gay or Lesbian" and 4.4% answered "Bisexual."
In other words, the survey you provided suggests that at least 7.7% identify as Lesbian, Gay, or Bisexual and not the less than 1% you have claimed.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but you wish. The US census that was taken just last year clear shows that the LGBTQ crowd is less then 1% of the population May I suggest you actually learn to read.
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Tom
Your ad hominem attacks aren't helping your argument, Daniel.
The first time the Census Bureau asked any sort of question on a census or survey regarding sexual orientation was in July 2021. That survey, the data of which you provided a link for, does not list the LGBTQ community as being less than 1% of the population.
It specifically states that 3.3% of those who participated responded "Gay or Lesbian" and 4.4% "Bisexual."
I'm not "wishing" that this is true, I'm simply providing the data I found from the link that you posted.
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Daniel Gray
the only "ad hominem attacks" are clearly yours. You asked and I told you how to do it and yet instead of you doing it all you have done is a poor desperate attempt at grasping at straws to try and change the subject when you cant prove me wrong.
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Ryan S Romanek
I don't agree with burning books, however I do agree with banning the books from my sons curriculum. I am sending my son to a Christian school next year due to New Jerseys incessant push to educate my children the way they want them to think like a mindless drone for the states benefit not ours. When has it been ok for anyone to teach your children about these subjects and WE THE PEOPLE continue to let these fools influence our lives.
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Krystina S.
It seems as though YOU, Ryan, are wanting to educate your children the way you want a specific religious group to think... perhaps like a mindless drone for the benefit of that religious group... Due to illness, my children briefly attended a hybrid Christian home/test at school. When the text said that the KKK was formed by the righteous southerners trying to protect their vulnerable wives and daughters from the ravages of the carpetbaggers... we removed them immediately. The head of the school, a minister and close friend, had not known about these historic "whoppers," and shortly thereafter he resigned and the "school" closed. SOOOOOO. LGBTQ+ are okay. The KKK as the Saviors is not okay. You appear to be confused about reality. See your comment as to WHO wants an "incessant push to educate [my] children they way they want them to think like a mindless drone for .... benefit not ours." I'll pick the actual university-trained educators who teach for ALL the children, not those of "special parents."
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Gary Richard Noce
This sounds a lot like Nazi Germany !!!
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Allen Haas
I believe that parents have a responsibility to guide their children to make responsible choices. Burn books? Well, no but if it is done as a private action rather than a government sanctioned action then my objection is personal as well. School boards are not appointed by God to decide what's suitable. They are elected officials entrusted by parents with a certain degree of in loco parentis authority over children - authority brings with it responsibility. There are images and books which are simply not suitable for children. Graphic depictions of violence for example. Isolating on a few books begs the question. If parents want their children to have access to books addressing graphic subject matter they are free to purchase those books and put them on the shelves in their home. I wonder how many actually do that. As citizens we have a right to object to the things on which public funds are spent.
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Krystina S.
As one individual, most of us do not have the "right" to object to the things on which public funds are spent. Actually. I don't get to tell the Federal, state, or local governments what I do or do not wish my taxes to be spent on. I don't individually get to object to (and have removed) items from sponsored school lunches. Or whether high school students must pass certain standards to graduate, or if a "phys ed" credit is required- or even offered. Nobody will do anything if I object to "certain" people sullying the public pool. Or stop the approved millage from being taken out. Or stop drones from killing civilians. Or if the public school offers AP classes, or high school/college biology classes using cats, foetal pigs, toads for anatomy. Or the public schools talking about prehistory before 4000 ad.
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Clint Knight
I find the comments here neither tollarant or inclusive! Protecting a child from morally unacceptable literature is the job of the parents and to explain why to that child.
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Lyndy Borden
Which books are they burning?
The Handmaid's Tale, Kite Runner, these aren't inappropriate books, I read them in hs and elementary school. If you're too much of a snowflake to handle the content of these books, don't let your kids read it, burning these (critically acclaimed) books is a stupid action, and you're depriving kids who actually care about school more than your dumbass bible.
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Lionheart
I agree, but sadly, it’s surprising how many parents seem to be clueless as to what is acceptable for children and what isn’t. Children are so gullible, and religious parents have great influence on young immature minds that can cause trauma later in life trying to escape the bonds religion has on them. Many don’t even see the Bible as being sexually explicit portraying low moral standards. Just a quick read of the Songs Of Solomon is a classic example. And then there’s the misogynistic verses that denigrate the worth of females. It actually surprises me that females embrace the Abrahamic religions and worship that god. 🤷🏼
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John D. Partin
For you, of all people, to call children or anyone else "gullible" and say that they have "immature minds" that others can cause "trauma... trying to escape the bonds" others have put on them, considering your own submission to and enthrallment by Trumpelstiltskin's and conservative lies and indoctrination, is really laughable!! You don't see the Donald as having very low moral standards, as everyone else quite clearly sees about him. He is misogynistic, as his name calling and treatment of women and numerous adulterous affairs with women prove!! So, why are you talking about the Bible's immorality or anyone else's brainwashing, when you don't even recognize and admit the immorality in your own guy right in front of your face and your own brainwashing?! Some immorality in the Bible or human thoughts put into God's mouth or actions don't negate "Love your neighbor as yourself", "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you", and other gold in the Bible, since that is the real Word of God! The Donald has shown us who he really is and a few half-hearted and for mere politics' and appearance's sake "good" things that he has done don't disguise that true Donald from us, anymore than Hitler's bringing Germany out of the Depression or having the Autobahn built disguise the truth about him from us!!
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Lionheart
I've already answered your concerns John in the post further above, if they get posted it. If we had to vote for people, and not their governmental policies for the nation, I doubt any politician would come out favorably. We can all point to flaws of character, and President Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, AOC, the Squad, et al, all have them, as well as President Trump. Thank you for your concern though and allowing me to clarify my reasoning. It's okay to not agree. Isn't it wonderful we are in a country where we can do so. Some countries are not so lucky, most of them are left wing socialist countries where many people are trying to get out of. Hopefully, when those refugees get to vote here in the US, they will remember what they left behind and previous voting practices, and will never vote left wing again, but who knows? 🤷🏼
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John D. Partin
Why are you only now, after you have been pressured and questioned into doing it, admitting that Trumpelstiltskin has personal flaws and made many mistakes and deliberate acts of meanness and indifference to people, but weren't doing so while he was in office, and, instead, were going along with him and making excuses for the wrong things that he did or just plain ignoring them and refusing to even see them or admit that they were done at all?! It was (and still is for other Trumpophiles) all of your going along with him and approving of everything that he did, while condemning just as indiscriminately and unthinkingly everything that Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, AOC, and other Democrats did and do that make many people believe that you are all very lopsided, unfair, and unrealistic in your thinking about the Donald and Democrats. An admission that you have to be pressured or questioned into making is immediately suspect and doesn't sound very sincere at all, but like something that you will drop and revert back to your former position once the pressure and questions are gone. I'm very happy about your apparent "enlightenment" about your guy, though it does sound like the Klan and Nazis trying to put a public relations statement out about themselves and say that "we aren't racists, but only for white people" and just more of that kind of PR, but, as I asked, why did it take pressure and questions to get you there, instead of your being there right from the start, as other people were about the Donald? People who are fleeing from criminal gangs and seeking asylum in this country aren't "just jumping on the bandwagon of trying to get to this country because we have a better standard of living here", but genuinely need help, which, if you really care about unfortunate people, as you claim above, you will be in favor of giving to your less fortunate brothers and sisters! Everyone can't come here from England and other well off countries, comparatively, and go through the regular admission process, anymore than emergency room victims of heart attacks and gunshot wounds can go through regular hospital admission procedures, since many people need special consideration, and you can't just say "I've got mine and am here, and to Hell with these less fortunate people", in essence, if not blatantly! The good or baby that you throw out with the bathwater in the Bible tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves and do unto others as we would have others do unto us and care for the stranger in our midst. Why would people even from left wing countries never vote left wing again when it is the right wing and Trumpelstiltskin and conservatives, such as yourself, who didn't want them to get in here and argued against their doing so and tried to block them from coming into this country? And you think that they should be grateful to all of you for that and vote exclusively right wing from now on because of your "great concern for them"?! On what planet?! Because that isn't happening here!! What has "left wing" got to do with it?
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John D. Partin
The problem isn't only with Trumpelstiltskin, but also with Republican and conservative ideology and their governmental policies, which are primarily for the rich and well-to-do. That is why they are against the rich and well-to-do bearing their fair share of the tax burden and fight against it in Congress. They are against immigrants who need special consideration because of fleeing from criminal gangs getting into this country through asylum and fight and don't cooperate with that in Congress, either, because they are catering to xenophobic prejudices of their right-wing constituents, such as yourself, and because these poor people aren't paying customers, such as yourself and others from well off countries, who get in here through the regular process. The Donald is just the extreme and latest example of Republican and conservative corruption, as General Dyer was in India in the Amritsar massacre, but that corruption was here before he came on the scene, with Nixon and Watergate, and will be here long after he is gone! The Democratic Party has some corruption, of course, in their ranks, too, as all human organizations do, but it isn't very often the same kind of wealth centered/poor and middle income opposed corruption of the Republican Party and Conservatism, which is the Marie Antoinette and "Let them eat cake" indifferent to the poor and middle class variety of corruption!!
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Stephen E. Goll
What Idiots!
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John Ball
Parents should have the right to choose what is in their children's school library. We may not like what they excluede, but it is their school. The real issue is much bigger, of course, becaue school is a process of indoctrination.
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Cara Eve Lair
And what if there is one parent that disagrees with the others? Do you think that parent should be overruled or should that parent have equal say?
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Krystina S.
Parents should NOT have the right to choose what is in their children's school library. We live in a vast world of ideas and experiences, and a parent (or even multiple parents) generally do NOT have the skills or understanding of the range of abilities/interests/needs of the students to make such a decision. But I guess they are the same parents who would force ALL students to "pray," perhaps in the "right way" --such as NOT with a prayer rug or candle or at a specific time of day or AFTER meals or... Perhaps the bullies of these parents wouldn't like science or history to be taught that they didn't personally approve of? (oh, sorry, biology of prehistory and evolution? The idea that black people were enslaved, that it was WRONG for white people to do so, and that had something to do with the way that our Constitution and legislation and judicial systems were created and have evolved....HM.) Yeah, NO. I want my school district to teach the unvarnished truth and to offer materials for every type and interest.
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Robert Edward Szekely
John Ball: Are you trying to raise children to live in a dictatorship? We may only consider parental preferences restricting school library selections in cases of private schools which are 100% funded by tuition provided by the parents for students in attendance.
ANY school receiving even a single cent of taxpayer money has no place censoring content available in its library. This does not prevent cross-categorization by both subject and in some cases, identifying some content as being more age-appropriate for certain groups over others. This does not mean, however, making it disappear from the shelves, or even trying to mask its presence or availability within the library, for that matter.
When we filter out unpopular ideas, it ceases to be teaching and instead becomes propaganda. Citizens of a republic must be well-informed in a variety of ideas in order for a republic to function effectively. Some of these ideas will be controversial and some will always conflict with social mores of the day: it is for this very reason that they MUST remain available for consideration and dialogue.
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Marathuzula
Seems dangerous to have a public school board chaired by someone who invokes a religious sentimentality. I think the only criteria we need is: Knowledge is Power. I don't know what kids should be reading. I don't know if kids should be reading 'x', but if a kid is trying to find 'x' I know it should be in the library for them to learn about. Talking about Trans issues and book burning is 100% a throw back to Weimar Germany a hundred years ago. Institut Fur Sexualwissenschaft was definitely a target of early Nazism.
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Dennis McGaughey
It would be nice if we could remove all this sin but we live in a sinful world.we have to keep praying & seeking God our eyes on him .yes they need to get rid of that crap
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Lionheart
There is no empirical evidence Dennis that talking to imaginary beings does anything, but if you want to, please go ahead.
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John D. Partin
You are correct that praying to truly imaginary beings doesn't bring anything, and so you can pray to Harry Potter or any other fictional character all day long, every day, and for your whole life, and nothing that you are praying for will ever happen through your prayers to them. But that shows that God isn't an imaginary being because prayers said to Him directly or through the Saints to Him have produced results: people's recovering from medical conditions or diseases when the doctors had given up all hope, the Communists' leaving Austria at the end of W.W.II through people's praying the Rosary when the Communists had no reason or intention to leave on their own, homes and people being delivered from demonic spirits and poltergeists (who could prove their existence even to you skeptics if you witnessed and experienced them!!) through prayers being said when those spirits had no intention of ever leaving, either, and on and on of many other examples of answered prayers. You and your ilk think that "prayers don't work" because God won't jump through your hoops and do tricks for you, like trained seals or dogs or dancing bears, and because you say any prayers at all frivolously and without any faith. So, when God fails to respond to your "prayers" or jump through your hoops, you say "There is no God" and "Prayers don't work", which you wouldn't, consistently, say about a human being who didn't jump through your hoops or their actions all the time. "The fool has said in his heart 'There is no God'". Also, people pray for things that wouldn't be any good for them or, even if good some other time, not good then, which God couldn't give them anymore than parents could let their children live on just cake and ice cream or play out in the middle of the street and get hit by cars, and have no rules for them. You talk about myths about gods and say that they "disprove" the gods or God, but myths about God and "God's being a myth" are two different things, since there are also myths and lies about you and all other people, and all of you make up myths and lies about other people, too, but those myths and lies don't make any of you non-existent, and they don't do that for God or gods (spirits), either. That is clear thinking about that matter and doing unto God as we would have others do unto us!!
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Lionheart
Try making your case to the family's of the Holocaust, the Tsunami of 2004, and families of children dying of cancer in Hospital.
Found carved on a wall in a building in Auschwitz: "If there is a God, he will have to beg for my forgiveness" 😢
If your god was real John, he wouldn't need you, or anyone else, to argue his existence.
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John D. Partin
Nazis who didn't care about what God wanted or said and so did any rotten things that they wanted to do in Auschwitz and other concentration camps and corrupted and purely natural laws in the Tsunami of 2004 and cancer in children and other diseases and natural catastrophes can't reasonably, fairly, consistently or logically be blamed on God!! That can only be done by people who accept no responsibility for their own actions and say unrealistically and unreasonably that there shouldn't be any consequences to their and others' doing whatever they want and violating God's teachings and will and who unthinkingly blame God for the actions of corrupted nature. That includes the writer on that wall in Auschwitz and all other like-"minded" people. God isn't going to appear and go around to everyone in the world and personally explain Himself and prove His existence to all of us because He wants faith in people about that and not to overwhelm people with proof of that, because He has already given us more than sufficient evidence of His existence for those who have eyes to see and can see God's existence in answers to prayer and miracles and in the synchronization, calibration, coordination, and maintenance of the entire universe, and because He has put us here on Earth to be that proof of God's existence to each other. Woe to those who have eyes to see, but refuse to see!!! God doesn't want any Holocausts or ethnic cleansings or mass murders or other large or small crimes of people against other people or natural disasters and diseases that kill thousands or millions of children and adults, but we have to listen to and obey God's laws and will to avoid all those human crimes or nature's corruption because of our fall, instead of unrealistically expecting to have our cake and eat it, too, and do things our way, while still not having any of these consequences of doing things our way, which isn't going to ever happen!!!
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Lionheart
You are living in a dream world John of deep indoctrination, but sadly, you can’t see it, and I doubt never will.
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John D. Partin
It is you who is living in a dream world of deep atheist indoctrination, and very sadly can't see that, where you "think" that an unthinking universe "just came up with itself" and where answers to prayers "happen without anyone making them happen"!! When evidence put right in front of you still doesn't get through to you or prove anything to you, that makes you a very sad and confused person, indeed, and so go on in your blindness and self-delusion, since you won't let yourself be freed from all that by opening your heart, mind, and eyes, until they are opened against your will after you die and you finally see the truth, when it's too late to do you any good, and you have to live with that forever!!
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Lionheart
🤣 Still no empirical evidence John that any God, Fairies, Elves, Zeus, Vishnu et al are real. That’s why faith is all you have to try and hang your hat on. You are no different than those that believe in other gods, or other metaphysical beings.
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John D. Partin
God isn't to blame for what Nazis, Communists, and all other people who don't listen to Him or do what He says do to other people or for what corrupted nature does to people in tsunamis, cancer, or any other natural disasters or diseases or medical conditions. Are you responsible for what people who don't listen to you or do what you tell them to do go ahead and do, anyway, and the crimes that they commit? Give God the same consideration and judge Him by the standard that you even apply to yourself and so don't blame or hate Him because of what people who don't listen to Him or do what He says or corrupted nature do!! We can't have the world that God wants of love and no Holocausts or natural disasters and diseases, while also ignoring and refusing to do what God wants and love each other and live by His laws and will. We can't have it both ways and have our cake and eat it, too: of only good things from God and no evil, while continuing to do evil and not do good, since that is a contradiction!. All people who blame and hate God for the evils that they themselves are bringing into the world, such as that writer on the wall in Auschwitz, aren't thinking clearly, logically or fairly about the matter. We testify to God's existence because it is obviously true and because we love Him for loving us and the good that He brings into the world, just as you and other people talk about people whom you love. God isn't going to appear and go around to everyone in the world and explain or prove His existence to them because He wants them to have faith in that and not to be overwhelmed, because He has already given us more than sufficient evidence of His existence in the synchronization, calibration, coordination, and maintenance of the universe and in miracles and answers to prayer, and because He wants us to be the evidence of His existence to each other by our love and goodness.
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Lionheart
There is no evidence whatsoever of his existence John, that’s why all you have is faith, which is the same thing all others have of other faiths around the world, all claiming to believe their mythical god(s) exists.
No amount of faith makes anything fact John. I’m sorry you can’t see that.
You are right though by saying god isn’t going to appear, and I think we all know why, don’t we John. It’s because he obviously doesn’t exist, just like fairies, elves, and gnomes aren’t going to appear to anyone. Obviously, if you still insist on believing he’s real, please go ahead, I would want to disappoint your delusion.
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John D. Partin
I have just given you the evidence that God does exist, which is His answering prayers and giving people what they ask for (other people's recovering from medical conditions when their doctors had given all hope, driving out of spirits from homes and people when they didn't intend to leave, driving out of invaders of a country through prayers when they didn't intend to leave, and other answers to prayers). Something that, according to you, "doesn't exist" can't do any of that, but He does and so He exists. That is called the scientific method of deduction from the evidence, in case you are confused about that! The synchronization, calibration, coordination, and maintenance of the universe prove that God exists, since blind unthinking nature isn't capable of doing any of that, either. More of the scientific method, not just faith. So much as a regulation toothpick doesn't happen until somebody makes it happen, but, according to you and all other self-deluded people, the entire universe, which is many hundreds of trillions or more times more complex than any toothpick "just happened and is maintained without any mind or intelligence behind it whatsoever"!! The odds are just incredibly and incalculably against that being true, though I hate to shatter your delusions about the matter! I have given you the reasons why God doesn't go around to everyone and explain Himself to them, which are that He wants us to have mindful faith, based on the evidence above, not blind faith, and not overwhelm us with the other world beyond this world, but only hints and indications to lead us to Him, so that we can still think about our lives here, and wants us to be the proof of His existence to each other by love and goodness to each other. That isn't "faith trying to make anything fact", but fact based faith! I'm sorry that you can't see that! When all people who ignore you and never come to see you stop actually existing, then you could claim that as "proof that they don't exist", but until then, what doesn't apply even to people or disprove their existence applies infinitely less to God and doesn't disprove His existence, either! When even smaller spirits exist, as you can prove to yourself very easily by going to haunted locations and experiencing them for yourself, then spirits exist and the Greatest Spirit exists just logically and from the evidence above. I'm very sorry that you aren't able to see or understand that.
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Christine
John, I'm not taking sides here as you'll see by my conclusion here, but you're not providing any evidence of the existence of god as opposed to a self-existing universe. Your premise here is that things only exists of someone creates them, like your toothpick example. That begs the questions then if god exists, what created it? I'm sure you might be tempted to help yourself to saying that god is a self existing thing. But that puts you in the exact same place logically speaking as your "opponent". You both are claiming that there are self-existing things. You are logically no better or worse off, so I'd maybe take more humility when speaking with someone who posits that the universe, just like you posit a god, just simply exists.
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John D. Partin
Christine, I appreciate your response to my discussion with the person above. The main problem, as I see it, with the universe's always existing, as opposed to God's always existing, is that with the universe, we are still talking about unthinking matter and even if it has always been around (as improbable as that is!), that doesn't enable unthinking matter to be able to synchronize, calibrate, coordinate, and maintain itself from the beginning of time and down to the present moment and into the future. Merely unthinking matter can't, by definition, do any of that! Between God and unthinking matter, God is the only One Who has the ability to synchronize, calibrate, coordinate, and maintain the universe from the beginning to now and into the future. If matter in itself had any such intelligence to be able to do all those things, then what it could do on the Cosmic scale, it could do even easier on the local and planetary scale, and we would be seeing it make buildings and natural formations and cars and other objects come together right in front of our eyes, not taking millions or billions of years through God's making them happen! What the universe can't do locally on the small scale, so that we can observe it, it certainly can't do on the much larger Cosmic scale, on the logical and realistic premise that if the small job is too much for you, you will never be able to do the big job! The universe doesn't think---PERIOD!, but is only thought upon by God. Matter is, by definition, contingent, meaning depending on a power beyond itself. If God weren't self-existent, but contingent, too, He would need someone to make Him, and so on retrocedently, ad infinitum and nauseam! For anything to exist, we have to conclude that a Power is responsible that is self-existent and can't not exist, which is God. If the universe were around 100 trillion years ago, how about before that and before that, infinitely back! No, it had to have a starting point, which some call the Big Bang, but it couldn't do even that for itself, either! Spirits in haunted locations prove that there is more than matter in this world and universe. So, if they exist, a greater Spirit than them must logically exist, from that evidence and the evidence above.
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Lionheart
John you still don’t realise that no one on earth has been able to prove any god exists. The first one to do so will be able to claim the Nobel prize for doing so. Are you planning on claiming that prize John?
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John D. Partin
Not prove it to you and other closed-minded people, who refuse to accept any evidence or logic that can ever be presented to all of you of God's existence, but that isn't the same at all as not proving it to open-minded people who will listen to evidence and logic about it and accept the truth! The first one to prove that this universe gave birth to itself (a logical impossibility) will also get that Nobel Prize, too, and get it first, if you are right. So, are you going to claim that prize, CHL?!
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Lionheart
You use the same illogical reasoning John as many others, and that is; If you don’t understand it, there must be a god involved. It’s called the god of the gaps theory, and that has been used for generations since man used the Sun as a god because they didn’t know where it went at night. Your illogical thought presupposes there is a god, or something mystical, that created it all, but the reality is, that no one knows John, not even you. You can postulate as much as you want, but there is still no evidence. Let me know sometime, when you get some actual demonstrable evidence to prove it to the world. I look forward to your peer-reviewed papers. Good luck!
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John D. Partin
It is you who is using illogical "reasoning" that a mindless universe is coming up with its own laws and interconnection of them for its operation, which even all the human geniuses in history put together couldn't come up with or be able to do!! That is your god of the gaps that you use to "explain" that and your desperate blind faith against a mind behind the universe!! You aren't against faith, but only against any other faith than your own. Your faith requires much more gullibility and credulity than anything that I could do. You can postulate your insane faith as much as you want, but the actual evidence contradicts you at every turn. Let me know when you get some actual demonstrable evidence that a mindless universe is coming up with intelligent laws for its operation, which is contradictory on the face of it and becomes increasingly more so the deeper that you look into it!! I'll be looking forward to your peer reviewed papers about that, if only to see how many people you have got to go along with all that foolishness!!
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Donald Michael Woodward
I know my God by knowing it is impossible for me to guess what is wanted of me or anyone else. I would never want to tell another how to live their life according to my God, they need to find their own. I live a life within the standards expected of me by society, not God. If a society wants to burn pagans, have at it. Just don't burn me for knowing my God.
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Lionheart
How do you know your god, if there is no demonstrable evidence it exists?
How can I know fairies if there is no demonstraral evidence that fairies exist?
Can you see how illogical your claim is?
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Leona Weisenbach
I have not seen the books they are talking about burning. But I do feel everything is age appropriate. Knowledge over fear....this also is how you veiw the world... reality. I'm not against teaching religion...all religions.... World religion.. How we teach sex education...It's more than an sex act...It's emotions....We need Children to be critical thinkers and not to be pushed into anyone's bullshit.
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Tim Yorty
If a public school library / school board is going to decide which books can and can't be allowed based on the beliefs of the school board members - isn't that a violation of the 1st amendment - at least on a local level?
If you don't want your kids to have access to sexually explicit material, then you better make sure they don't have a cell phone.
If you haven't raised your kids to believe and accept your own beliefs what does that mean besides that you don't trust them?
As a parent don't you realize you can raise your kids a certain way but when they reach the age of reason they have the God-given right to freedom of choice? And that's something you can't control - at least not forever.
The problem here lies with the adults trying to enforce their religious beliefs on everyone's kids in a public school when they should actually expend much more effort teaching their own kids about truly accepting Christ and living their lives in obedience to Him - then the kids would 1) have choice 2) have knowledge of what sin is and the power of Christ to overcome temptation. Then books in some library would have no influence on or attraction for them.
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
It is a homosexuality problem. Efforts are underway to purge the Bishop class. It will undoubtedly create a much smaller church.
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
“Tolerance and apathy are the virtues of a dying society.” Aristotle
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Tom
Except that isn't a quote made by Aristotle... https://sententiaeantiquae.com/2018/09/29/racists-use-this-fake-quote-from-aristotle/
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
Hello Tom: I did the research and this looks to be correct. Thank you for pointing it out.
Tolerance appears to exist on a continuum. Too much tolerance = chaos. Not enough = totalitarianism.
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Kevin Joseph Kervick
"One thing men are responsible for is bringing order to the world. They don’t always succeed, but it must be their duty to make the effort, and it’s not wise to distract them with histrionics when they attempt to do that, or shame them for trying. You are not excused from your duty in any case, American men. It’s not okay to pretend to be women to escape your duty. The women must not allow the men to hide among them and pretend to be them. They must insist that you be men.
One of your duties as men is to oppose false realities to preserve meaning, and you do that first by insisting on being upright yourself and speaking of things as they really are so that you can do with them what you must do. And this is the meaning of authority, which has been submerged in the flood we’re riding on, this flood of false realities drowning the meaning of everything.
I know this makes for a harsh Christmas. It is where we happen to be: the flood-tide of darkness. Do what you can with it, knowing that it marks some kind of turning. I promise you, the light is coming." Jim Kuntsler
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Robert Edward Szekely
Kevin Joseph Kervick:
Is this this Jim Kuntsler you're quoting?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Howard_Kunstler
His bio depicts him as something of a crackpot...
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John Peter Dugan
that would include the Bible .........................
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Donald Michael Woodward
The hubris of any religion to think to know what God wants of others is a sign of a civilization facing collapse. When a civilization begins to decay many religions will attempt to blame the pagans and heathens for failing to please their God and will cry out for something to be done. After the book burning s do not work, it may be time for human sacrifices. I suspect there are some Christians who may want this already.
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pjm
These busybodies are the bane of civilization's existence. Who the H-E--double-hockeysticks are they to presume to tell other parents what their children can or cannot read? It's so infuriating! They need to mind their own business. I have no doubt whatsoever that their own children are the worst brats in town, and are sneaking around behind their backs doing everything that they are forbidding. This is still America (isn't it?) where people are supposed to be able to make their own choices for their own families. As someone else pointed out, this is literally fascism. I mean, seriously -- are their lives so boring that they have to spend their time worrying about what others are doing? This is so un-American that it reeks.
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Howard Cuevas
The USA is not now, never has been, nor shall ever be a country that bans books. Period
Great, burning of books of explicit sexual content, the foremost book they would have to burn is the Bible.
See Genesis (19) : 33 36 , Genesis (35) : 22., Genesis (38) : 2. , Genesis (38) : 8 . 9. , Genesis (38) : 15 . 18. , 2 Samuel (13) : 11 . 14. ,2 Samuel (16) : 22. , Ezekiel (16) : 28. , : Ezekiel (23) : 3. , Ezekiel (23) : 5 . 8. , Hosea (4) : 12. , Hosea (6) : 10. , Hosea (9) : 1. , Genesis (9) : 21., 1 Samuel (19) : 24., 2 Samuel (6) : 20. ,: Isaiah (20) : 4. Isaiah (13) : 16. These are only just scratching the surface.
Perhaps these Virginian parents expended so much energy begetting their children that it resulted in a short circuit in their neurons?? Who are the brave or fools who will burn the Bible? What a wonderful world it would be if they burned the Bible , Tanakh(Torah) and the Koran. all at once.
To this day we bemoan the burning of the Alexandrian library, with much ancient writing and knowledge. I think we humans never learn from the past, and this is really the best we can expect from humanity! So let us burn, segregate, make war, and murder in the name of " we are better and you are different".
I will agree with you 💯 Because look how the world 🌎 governments use race as a tool to keep the people divided.