"You can't take Christ out of Christmas," as the saying goes.
Well, apparently, you can. And one Virginia school plans to do just that. Officials at Robious Middle School have banned all songs containing mentions of Jesus from the annual Christmas concert.
According to the school's choir director, the move was made in the spirit of sensitivity toward a more diverse student body. "We had a few students who weren't comfortable singing a piece I have done many times in the past, but it is of a sacred nature and does mention Jesus," the choir director wrote in an email exchange with concerned parent David Allen.
Allen countered that the changes to the winter concert program - while perhaps pro-diversity on their face seemed to be more aimed at knocking Christianity than anything else.
"It just seems like ... everywhere you look everyone's afraid of stepping on someone's toes or everything is being so sensitive," Allen later told reporters. "They were unable to [sing this song] because the word Jesus was in there and apparently someone assumed it was of a sacred nature. I'm trying to rationalize how you can encourage diversity and yet be exclusionary in one specific area," he remarked.
"War on Christmas" Continues
Unsurprisingly, the incident has provoked outrage in conservative religious circles, which are quick to respond to incidents involving anti-Christmas sentiment (whether perceived or real).
First Liberty Institute, an organization that focuses on issues of religious freedom, released a statement challenging the validity of the school's decision.
"Federal courts have upheld the constitutionality of public school holiday programs that include the use of religious music, art, or drama," a representative for the group wrote, "so long as the material is presented in an objective manner 'as a traditional part of the cultural and religious heritage of the particular holiday.'"
It's not the first time the so-called War on Christmas has made public schools its battleground. In December 2016, a Texas judge ordered a school to restore a "Charlie Brown Christmas" display after administrators had taken it down because it featured a Bible verse. Many complained about the decision, but the school ultimately relented and put the display back up.
Peace Treaty in Sight?
Whether there really is a concerted effort to put a damper on Christmas is up for debate. Does demanding that government-operated entities like public schools refrain from promoting one religion over others really constitute a "war" on our nation's most popular winter holiday? That interpretation seems a bit sensationalistic.
However, it seems clear now that each new story about Christian symbols or references being banned from the public square will only serve to reinforce the belief held by conservative religious groups that their faith is under attack. After all, wars can't be fought without ammunition.
With that in mind, some people argue that the best strategy for putting this debate to rest might be simply to let Christians celebrate Jesus in the public domain (within reason, of course). After all, he is a historical figure whose birth is marked by a major holiday on our calendar. Similar to the pledge of allegiance, if students are uncomfortable taking part, give them an option to sit out or participate in an alternative activity.
But others are enraged by this idea, viewing it as a massive concession to faith groups intent on spreading their religious messages within society especially to young people. The United States is not a Christian country, critics insist, and as a matter of principle Jesus should be kept out of the classroom.
Where do you stand?
If you don’t mind schools putting on concerts to honor other religious festivals (Islam, Judaism, Krishna, Hindu) why not? However, if the schools are state run, religious festivals might not comply with the separation of church and state.
Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter about church and state. It is not in the Constitution or Bill of Rights.
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws which respect an establishment of religion, prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the right to peaceably assemble, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights.
Lynn Gideon: Supreme Court of the United States rulings on the Separation of Church and State.
"Separation of church and state" is paraphrased from Thomas Jefferson and used by others in expressing an understanding of the intent and function of the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution which reads: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
The phrase "separation between church & state" is generally traced to a January 1, 1802, letter by Thomas Jefferson, addressed to the Danbury Baptist Association in Connecticut, and published in a Massachusetts newspaper. Jefferson wrote,
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties." .... Article Six of the United States Constitution also specifies that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
Jefferson's metaphor of a wall of separation has been cited repeatedly by the U.S. Supreme Court. In Reynolds v. United States (1879) the Court wrote that Jefferson's comments "may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the [First] Amendment." In Everson v. Board of Education (1947), Justice Hugo Black wrote: "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state."
In contrast to separationism, the Supreme Court in Zorach v. Clauson upheld accommodationism, holding that the nation's "institutions presuppose a Supreme Being" and that government recognition of God does not constitute the establishment of a state church as the Constitution's authors intended to prohibit. As such, the Court has not always interpreted the constitutional principle as absolute, and the proper extent of separation between government and religion in the U.S. remains an ongoing subject of impassioned debate.
The "Separation" principle and the Supreme Court Jefferson's concept of "separation of church and state" first became a part of Establishment Clause jurisprudence in Reynolds v. U.S., 98 U.S. 145 (1878). In that case, the court examined the history of religious liberty in the US, determining that while the constitution guarantees religious freedom, "The word 'religion' is not defined in the Constitution. We must go elsewhere, therefore, to ascertain its meaning, and nowhere more appropriately, we think, than to the history of the times in the midst of which the provision was adopted." The court found that the leaders in advocating and formulating the constitutional guarantee of religious liberty were James Madison and Thomas Jefferson. Quoting the "separation" paragraph from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, the court concluded that, "coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment thus secured."
The centrality of the "separation" concept to the Religion Clauses of the Constitution was made explicit in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947), a case dealing with a New Jersey law that allowed government funds to pay for transportation of students to both public and Catholic schools. This was the first case in which the court applied the Establishment Clause to the laws of a state, having interpreted the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment as applying the Bill of Rights to the states as well as the federal legislature. Citing Jefferson, the court concluded that "The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach."
While the decision (with four dissents) ultimately upheld the state law allowing the funding of transportation of students to religious schools, the majority opinion (by Justice Hugo Black) and the dissenting opinions (by Justice Wiley Blount Rutledge and Justice Robert H. Jackson) each explicitly stated that the Constitution has erected a "wall between church and state" or a "separation of Church from State": their disagreement was limited to whether this case of state funding of transportation to religious schools breached that wall. Rutledge, on behalf of the four dissenting justices, took the position that the majority had indeed permitted a violation of the wall of separation in this case: "Neither so high nor so impregnable today as yesterday is the wall raised between church and state by Virginia's great statute of religious freedom and the First Amendment, now made applicable to all the states by the Fourteenth." Writing separately, Justice Jackson argued that "[T]here are no good grounds upon which to support the present legislation. In fact, the undertones of the opinion, advocating complete and uncompromising separation of Church from State, seem utterly discordant with its conclusion yielding support to their commingling in educational matters."
In 1962, the Supreme Court addressed the issue of officially sponsored prayer or religious recitations in public schools. In Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962), the Court, by a vote of 6-1, determined it unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and require its recitation in public schools, even when the prayer is non-denominational and students may excuse themselves from participation. (The prayer required by the New York State Board of Regents prior to the Court's decision consisted of: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country. Amen.") As the Court stated:
The petitioners contend, among other things, that the state laws requiring or permitting use of the Regents' prayer must be struck down as a violation of the Establishment Clause because that prayer was composed by governmental officials as a part of a governmental program to further religious beliefs. For this reason, petitioners argue, the State's use of the Regents' prayer in its public school system breaches the constitutional wall of separation between Church and State. We agree with that contention, since we think that the constitutional prohibition against laws respecting an establishment of religion must at least mean that, in this country, it is no part of the business of government to compose official prayers for any group of the American people to recite as a part of a religious program carried on by government.
The court noted that it "is a matter of history that this very practice of establishing governmentally composed prayers for religious services was one of the reasons which caused many of our early colonists to leave England and seek religious freedom in America." The lone dissenter, Justice Potter Stewart, objected to the court's embrace of the "wall of separation" metaphor: "I think that the Court's task, in this as in all areas of constitutional adjudication, is not responsibly aided by the uncritical invocation of metaphors like the "wall of separation," a phrase nowhere to be found in the Constitution."
In Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97 (1968), the Supreme Court considered an Arkansas law that made it a crime "to teach the theory or doctrine that mankind ascended or descended from a lower order of animals," or "to adopt or use in any such institution a textbook that teaches" this theory in any school or university that received public funds. The court's opinion, written by Justice Abe Fortas, ruled that the Arkansas law violated "the constitutional prohibition of state laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. The overriding fact is that Arkansas' law selects from the body of knowledge a particular segment which it proscribes for the sole reason that it is deemed to conflict with a particular religious doctrine; that is, with a particular interpretation of the Book of Genesis by a particular religious group." The court held that the Establishment Clause prohibits the state from advancing any religion, and that "[T]he state has no legitimate interest in protecting any or all religions from views distasteful to them." 
In Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971), the court determined that a Pennsylvania state policy of reimbursing the salaries and related costs of teachers of secular subjects in private religious schools violated the Establishment Clause. The court's decision argued that the separation of church and state could never be absolute: "Our prior holdings do not call for total separation between church and state; total separation is not possible in an absolute sense. Some relationship between government and religious organizations is inevitable," the court wrote. "Judicial caveats against entanglement must recognize that the line of separation, far from being a 'wall', is a blurred, indistinct, and variable barrier depending on all the circumstances of a particular relationship."
Subsequent to this decision, the Supreme Court has applied a three-pronged test to determine whether government action comports with the Establishment Clause, known as the "Lemon Test". First, the law or policy must have been adopted with a neutral or non-religious purpose. Second, the principle or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion. Third, the statute or policy must not result in an "excessive entanglement" of government with religion. (The decision in Lemon v. Kurtzman hinged upon the conclusion that the government benefits were flowing disproportionately to Catholic schools, and that Catholic schools were an integral component of the Catholic Church's religious mission, thus the policy involved the state in an "excessive entanglement" with religion.) Failure to meet any of these criteria is a proof that the statute or policy in question violates the Establishment Clause.
In 2002, a three judge panel on the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals held that classroom recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in a California public school was unconstitutional, even when students were not compelled to recite it, due to the inclusion of the phrase "under God." In reaction to the case, Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow, both houses of Congress passed measures reaffirming their support for the pledge, and condemning the panel's ruling. The case was appealed to the Supreme Court, where the case was ultimately overturned in June 2004, solely on procedural grounds not related to the substantive constitutional issue. Rather, a five-justice majority held that Newdow, a non-custodial parent suing on behalf of his daughter, lacked standing to sue.
When the Louisiana state legislature passed a law requiring public school biology teachers to give Creationism and Evolution equal time in the classroom, the Supreme Court ruled that the law was unconstitutional because it was intended to advance a particular religion, and did not serve the secular purpose of improved scientific education. (See also: Creation and evolution in public education)
The display of the Ten Commandments as part of courthouse displays was considered in a group of cases decided in summer of 2005, including McCreary County v. ACLU of Kentucky and Van Orden v. Perry. While parties on both sides hoped for a reformulation or clarification of the Lemon test, the two rulings ended with narrow 5–4 and opposing decisions,[vague] with Justice Stephen Breyer the swing vote.
On December 20, 2005, the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit ruled in the case of ACLU v. Mercer County that the continued display of the Ten Commandments as part of a larger display on American legal traditions in a Kentucky courthouse was allowed, because the purpose of the display (educating the public on American legal traditions) was secular in nature. In ruling on the Mount Soledad cross controversy on May 3, 2006, however, a federal judge ruled that the cross on public property on Mount Soledad must be removed.
In what will be the case is Town of Greece v. Galloway, 12-696, the Supreme Court agreed to hear a case regarding whether prayers at town meetings, which are allowed, must allow various faiths to lead prayer, or whether the prayers can be predominately Christian. On May 5, 2014, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled 5-4 in favor of the Town of Greece by holding that the U.S. Constitution not only allows for prayer at government meetings, but also for sectarian prayers like predominately Christian prayers.
Wow, Barker. TL/DR
I agree completely, however as a teacher I saw almost all faiths and cultures being taught in grades 6-12 sociology and geography classes, except for Christian Faith and Judahism which were actively suppressed in classroom discussions. Yet reading archeological treateses and historical research treatises I have also found a great deal of evidence in ancient supporting documents for those faiths. Is it right to expose our nation's youth in such a polarized bigotes manner? According to this as extracted from the constitution and subsequent court proceedings, teaching those other religions and religious precepts in public schools is just as wrong as suppressing Christian and Judiaec speech and banning symbols. So the issue is not as cut and dry as one would think. Especially if public education is now supporting a forum for diversity, which it clearly does not.
Finally someone is smart enough to show what are founding fathers already knew was going to happen. Amen!
What really scares me is a famous scientist named, "Gregg Braden ", has found a message in our DNA that God left for us to find when we finally had the technology to decode it using the Arimic language that Jesus spoke. It's EXTRODENARY That the media only put this information in a nature magazine. This info should have been on the cover of Time magazine, but instead the media hid this info from the masses Mr. Braden wrote a book called the God code..if you don't believe God exists, read the truth for yourself you athiest pompous ass!!! Your creator left us a message incoded in our DNA. That's EXTRODENARY to say the least.
" That’s EXTRODENARY to say the least. " Wow, you can say that again. Well, actually you did.
The idea of a separation of church and state is stupid. If so why does the president place his hand on a Bible when sworn in? And why does it say " In God We Trust" on our money? Also why isn't any body pissed off at the fact that Neil Diamond and Streisand making money off of Christmas albums when they are both Jews?
The President placed his hand on the Bible like many do that profess to be Christian. This is their right, but not a requirement. An atheist can place his hand on a copy of the Constitution if he so wishes. He would not use the words “So help me God”. He can use the words “I do so affirm” A Muslim can use the Quran.
As for people making money out of Christmas that support other religions, why not? Every gift you buy for Christmas Mr Pelcarsky, the manufacturer, or retailer, will make a profit from your purchase. You’re delusional if you think that doesn’t happen.
It says 'In God we Trust' on our money because that was added in the 1950's as a reaction to communism. From Wikipedia: "In God We Trust" is the official motto of the United States of America, Nicaragua, and of the U.S. state of Florida. It was adopted as the nation's motto in 1956 as a replacement or alternative to the unofficial motto of E pluribus unum, which was adopted when the Great Seal of the United States was created and adopted in 1782.
Rape child molestation bestiality child marriage the enslavement of women and terrorist are openly supported and practiced in places how do not separate church from state
The idea of the separation of Church and state were not for the state (or country) to not show its belief in God, or a higher-power, but to keep the state (or country) from meddling in Church affairs. AS an example, police cannot enter a Church building while the Church is in session, the reason many Churches back in the day would remain in service as police tried entering buildings in Texas and other areas. Today, it's not as difficult or more of a concern, but still there are laws on the books where police other government officials need very good reason to disturb a religious service.
This does not mean that our government cannot have a Bible, or that government officials cannot attend Church.
I agree completely, and Happy New Year!
Also, State run institutions and its employees that are funded by the government by your taxes shouldn't be financing religious events. This is where the separation from church and state lies. If it wasn't this way, churches of all faiths could ask for funding of events, or building restoration.
If you are Christian would you be happy funding Islam, or Krishna, or Buddhist events, or buildings from your taxes? Likewise, if you are an atheist would you be happy funding Christian events, building, etc., from your taxes?
Religious institutions are tax free. This is where they should be getting their funding from to help them with their financial affairs.
Don't forget about satanism! If you're going to put Christ and Christmas, you should put Satan in as wel
Especially because christ was not born in december but during rashana the festival of tents. ....thats between september and october .....christmas came from the celebration of winter solstice in an attempt to sway pagans into christianity but has now roared its ugly head and seperation of church and state was meant to keep any govt from taking our right to worship Yahweh the one true God.
this is not a matter of schools putting on ever thing in the wide world , it is about Christian birth of Christ not beliefs of worship of bugs or some pedophile leader. Just as people said back I the day give the freaks a inch and they take a mile. and that is exactly what has happened.
https://americasfoundingfathers.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/a-christian-nation/ Quotes From Our Founders George Washington – first President of the United States of America “What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” – George Washington “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.” – George Washington “It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.” – George Washington “Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable.” – George Washington We beseech [God] to pardon our national and other transgressions… – George Washington, Thanksgiving Proclamation 1789 “Oh, eternal and everlasting God, direct my thoughts, words and work. Wash away my sins in the immaculate blood of the Lamb and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit. Daily, frame me more and more in the likeness of Thy son, Jesus Christ, that living in Thy fear, and dying in Thy favor, I may in thy appointed time obtain the resurrection of the justified unto eternal life. Bless, O Lord, the whole race of mankind and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy son, Jesus Christ.” – George Washington, Prayer “True religion affords to government its surest support.” – George Washington Samuel Adams, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
“I … [rely] upon the merits of Jesus Christ for a pardon of all my sins.” – Samuel Adams “We have this day [Fourth of July] restored the Sovereign to whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in Heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let His Kingdom come.” – Samuel Adams “The name of the Lord (says the Scripture) is a strong tower; thither the righteous flee and are safe (Proverbs 18:10). Let us secure His favor and He will lead us through the journey of this life and at length receive us to a better.” – Samuel Adams United States Congressional Endorsement of the Bible and God
Congress printed a Bible for America and said: “The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.” – United States Congress 1782 “Congress passed this resolution: “The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.” – United States Congress 1782 “By Law the United States Congress adds to US coinage:” “In God We Trust”– United States Congress 1864
John Adams, President of the United States of America, First Vice President, Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Signer of the Bill of Rights, and Signer of First Amendment
“We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.” – John Adams and John Hancock “The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.” – John Adams
“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.” – John Adams
“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” – John Adams “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” – John Adams “I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.” – John Adams
“The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.” – John Adams
“[The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.” – John Adams “As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him.” – John Adams Abigail Adams, Wife of John Adams
“The Scriptures tell us righteousness exalteth a Nation.” – Abigail Adams Patrick Henry, Early America Leader There is a book [the Bible] worth all the other books ever printed.– Patrick Henry It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.– Patrick Henry John Jay, First Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court
Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers. – John Jay
The Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by its precepts. – John Jay John Hancock, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus. – John Adams and John Hancock
Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence
“The only foundation for . . . a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments.” – Benjamin Rush John Witherspoon, Continental Congress
“He is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down on profanity and immorality of every kind. Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy to his country.” – John Witherspoon John Dickinson, Signer Constitution of the USA, Continental Congress
“The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.” – John Dickinson Benjamin Franklin “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” – Benjamin Franklin Thomas Jefferson, President God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever. – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial The Christian religion is the best religion that has ever been given to man – Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial Daniel Webster, Early American Politician Education is useless without the Bible. – Daniel Webster Noah Webster, American Schoolmaster Education is useless without the Bible. The Bible was America’s basic text book in all fields. God’s Word, contained in the Bible, has furnished all necessary rules to direct our conduct. – Noah Webster In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people. – Noah Webster, Preface Noah Webster Dictionary, 1828 Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story
“I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law … There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.” – Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Harvard Speech, 1829 National Anthem of the United States of America, Francis Scott Key “And this be our motto, ‘In God is our trust’” – USA National Anthem, Third Verse Andrew Jackson, President of the United States of America
“[The Bible] is the rock on which our Republic rests.” – Andrew Jackson Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America
“In regards to this great Book [the Bible], I have but to say it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this Book. But for it we could not know right from wrong. All things most desirable for man’s welfare, here and hereafter, are found portrayed in it.” – Abraham Lincoln
“I am busily engaged in study of the Bible.” – Abraham Lincoln “I have been driven many times to my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had absolutely no other place to go.” – Abraham Lincoln “This nation under God” – Abraham Lincoln, Gettysberg Address and inscribed on Lincoln Memorial “And whereas it is the duty of nations as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God … and to recognize the sublime truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord.” – Abraham Lincoln “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” – Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln Memorial
“Whereas, the Senate of the United States, devoutly recognizing the Supreme Authority and just Government of Almighty God, in all the affairs of men and of nations, has, by a resolution, requested the President to designate and set apart a day for National prayer and humiliation…” – Abraham Lincoln United States Supreme Court
“This is a Christian nation” – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892 “Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of The Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian…This is a Christian nation” – United States Supreme Court Decision in Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 1892 Washington Monument
“Holiness to the Lord” (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20) – Washington Monument
“Search the Scriptures” (John 5:39) – Washington Monument “The memory of the just is blessed” (Proverbs 10:7) – Washington Monument “May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence” – Washington Monument “In God We Trust” – Washington Monument “Praise be to God” (engraved on the monument’s capstone in Latin as “Laus Deo”) – Washington Monument James Madison, A Primary Author of the Constitution of the United States of America
“We have staked the whole future of our new nation, not upon the power of government; far from it. We have staked the future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.” – James Madison “Religion [is] the basis and foundation of Government” – James Madison “Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ.” – James Madison Calvin Coolidge, President of the United States of America “The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country.” – Calvin Coolidge
Amen, not to mention the pledge of aligence as I did in school . One nation,, under God, indivisible, with life, liberty, and justice for all.
Yes, isn’t it wonderful that some of the founding fathers could use their freedom of expression and talk about their god, and realize the importance of allowing others to have no god at all, if they so wished, by not mentioning any god in the Constitution.
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
—John Adams U.S. Constitution (1787)
This one is easy, because the Constitution of the United States of America makes zero reference to a god or Christianity.
The only reference to religion, found in Article VI, is a negative one: “[N]o religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” And of course we have the First Amendment, which states that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” “...legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.” ― Thomas Jefferson, Letters of Thomas Jefferson Articles of Confederation (1777)
Throughout the entire document, in all 13 articles, the only reference to anything remotely relating to a god is a term used one time, “Great Governor of the World,” and even then only in the context of general introduction, like “Ladies and gentlemen, members of the court....” Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this document did indeed seek to create a type of government in the form of a confederation of independent states. The authors gave no power or authority to religion. And this document is our first glimpse into the separation of church and state, because just as the Articles of Confederation give no authority to religion in civil matters, so too does the document deny any authority of government in matters of faith. “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries.
[Letter objecting to the use of government land for churches, 1803]” ― James Madison “One good schoolmaster is of more use than a hundred priests.” ― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason “The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” ― John Adams “As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
[Adams submitted and signed the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797]” ― John Adams, Thoughts On Government Applicable To The Present State Of The American Colonies.: Philadelphia, Printed By John Dunlap, M,Dcc,Lxxxvi “Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law.” ― Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason “Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt. will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.
[Letter to Edward Livingston, 10 July 1822 - Writings 9:100--103]” ― James Madison, James Madison: Writings “Besides the danger of a direct mixture of religion and civil government, there is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by ecclesiastical corporations. The establishment of the chaplainship in Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights as well as of Constitutional principles. The danger of silent accumulations and encroachments by ecclesiastical bodies has not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S.” ― James Madison “Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of it's protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and infidel of every denomination.” ― Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography of Thomas Jefferson “The Religion then of every man must be left to the conviction and conscience of every man; and it is the right of every man to exercise it as these may dictate. This right is in its nature an unalienable right. It is unalienable, because the opinions of men, depending only on the evidence contemplated by their own minds cannot follow the dictates of other men: It is unalienable also, because what is here a right towards men, is a duty towards the Creator. It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him.” ― James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, on the Religious Rights of Man: Written in 1784-85 “[T]here remains [in some parts of the country] a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Govt. & Religion neither can be duly supported. Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.” ― James Madison, James Madison: Writings “There is no such source and cause of strife, quarrel, fights, malignant opposition, persecution, and war, and all evil in the state, as religion. Let it once enter into our civil affairs, our government soon would be destroyed. Let it once enter our common schools, they would be destroyed. Those who made our Constitution saw this, and used the most apt and comprehensive language in it to prevent such a catastrophe.
[Weiss v. District Board, March 18, 1890]” ― Supreme Court of Wisconsin “It does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are 20 gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” ― Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia & Confession of Nat Turner “But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. If it be said, his testimony in a court of justice cannot be relied on, reject it then, and be the stigma on him. Constraint may make him worse by making him a hypocrite, but it will never make him a truer man. It may fix him obstinately in his errors, but will not cure them. Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.” ― Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia “Encourage free schools and resolve that not one dollar of money appropriated to their support no matter how raised, shall be appropriated to the support of any sectarian school...Leave the matter of religion to the family circle, the church & the private school support[ed] entirely by private contribution. Keep the church and state forever separate.” ― Ulysses S. Grant
renie: Your so-called quotes from founders are fake: "Fake Quotations: Washington and Governing without God" Posted by sbh on Friday, 3 July 2009
Did George Washington say: "It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible." in his farewell speech of 1796?
No. Not then or any other known time. This particular version is relatively modern. The statement appears to go back (through several permutations) to a claim made by an 1835 biographer on unknown authority. Supposedly George Washington said to a gentleman skeptical of the existence of a Supreme Being: "It is impossible to account for the creation of the universe without the agency of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to govern the universe without the aid of a Supreme Being. It is impossible to reason without arriving at a Supreme Being. Religion is as necessary to reason, as reason is to religion. The one cannot exist without the other. A reasoning being would lose his reason in attempting to account for the great phenomena of nature, had he not a Supreme Being to refer to; and well has it been said, that if there had been no God, mankind would have been obliged to imagine one."
You will note of course that the sense here is quite different from the sense of the derivative version. When the version quoted above is dragged out, it is with the intention of showing that Washington believed that God and the Bible were an essential part of governing a nation. In the 1835 version Washington is explaining that it is impossible for the universe to run without God keeping it going, so to speak. But the thing is, if there is a genuine version, this one is it.
Is this version likely to be authentic? Not particularly. These are not Washington’s words, but somebody’s recollection of Washington’s words written down after an unknown period of time. No authority is given, and the words are at least second hand, and maybe even further down the transmission chain. But this is as good as it gets.
Read more here: https://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/fake-quotations-washington-and-governing-without-god/
Also read about fake quotes of Adams and the indissoluble bond here: https://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/fake-quotations-adams-and-the-indissoluble-bond/
Read more about fake quotes of Jefferson and the sacred volume here: https://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/05/questionable-quotes-jefferson-and-the-sacred-volume/
renie: The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense founded on the Christian religion by Jim Walker Originated: 11 Apr. 1997 Additions: 26 Dec. 2004
Many Religious Right activists have attempted to rewrite history by asserting that the United States government derived from Christian foundations, that our Founding Fathers originally aimed for a Christian nation. This idea simply does not hold to the historical evidence.
Of course many Americans did practice Christianity, but so also did many believe in deistic philosophy. Indeed, most of our influential Founding Fathers, although they respected the rights of other religionists, held to deism and Freemasonry tenets rather than to Christianity....
The U.S. Constitution The United States Constitution serves as the law of the land for America and indicates the intent of our Founding Fathers. The Constitution forms a secular document, and nowhere does it appeal to God, Christianity, Jesus, or any supreme being. (For those who think the date of the Constitution contradicts the last sentence, see note 1 at the end.) The U.S. government derives from people (not God), as it clearly states in the preamble: "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union...." The omission of God in the Constitution did not come out of forgetfulness, but rather out of the Founding Fathers purposeful intentions to keep government separate from religion.
Although the Constitution does not include the phrase "Separation of Church & State," neither does it say "Freedom of religion." However, the Constitution implies both in the 1st Amendment. As to our freedoms, the 1st Amendment provides exclusionary wording:
Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. [bold caps, mine]
Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State." Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." There existed little controversy about this interpretation from our Founding Fathers.
If religionists better understood the concept of separation of Church & State, they would realize that the wall of separation actually protects their religion. Our secular government allows the free expression of religion and non-religion. Today, religions flourish in America; we have more churches than Seven-Elevens....
The Declaration of Independence Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)
However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states....
The Treaty of Tripoli Unlike most governments of the past, the American Founding Fathers set up a government divorced from any religion. Their establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves of its origin; they knew this as a ubiquitous unspoken given. However, as the United States delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of the U.S. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the U.S. goverenment to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." [bold text, mine]....
Common Law According to the Constitution's 7th Amendment: "In suits at common law. . . the right of trial by jury shall be preserved; and no fact, tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any court of the United States than according to the rules of the common law."
Here, many Christians believe that common law came from Christian foundations and therefore the Constitution derives from it. They use various quotes from Supreme Court Justices proclaiming that Christianity came as part of the laws of England, and therefore from its common law heritage.
But one of our principle Founding Fathers, Thomas Jefferson, elaborated about the history of common law in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814:
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."
". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
In the same letter, Jefferson examined how the error spread about Christianity and common law. Jefferson realized that a misinterpretation had occurred with a Latin term by Prisot, "ancien scripture", in reference to common law history. The term meant "ancient scripture" but people had incorrectly interpreted it to mean "Holy Scripture," thus spreading the myth that common law came from the Bible. Jefferson writes:
"And Blackstone repeats, in the words of Sir Matthew Hale, that 'Christianity is part of the laws of England,' citing Ventris and Strange ubi surpa. 4. Blackst. 59. Lord Mansfield qualifies it a little by saying that 'The essential principles of revealed religion are part of the common law." In the case of the Chamberlain of London v. Evans, 1767. But he cites no authority, and leaves us at our peril to find out what, in the opinion of the judge, and according to the measure of his foot or his faith, are those essential principles of revealed religion obligatory on us as a part of the common law." Thus we find this string of authorities, when examined to the beginning, all hanging on the same hook, a perverted expression of Priscot's, or on one another, or nobody." The Encyclopedia Britannica, also describes the Saxon origin and adds: "The nature of the new common law was at first much influenced by the principles of Roman law, but later it developed more and more along independent lines." Also prominent among the characteristics that derived out of common law include the institution of the jury, and the right to speedy trial....
Read entire article here: https://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm
America is a predominantly Christian country, if you live in America and you are not Christian then you need to come to accept that Americans will celebrate Christmas their way, if you do it differently then you should be allowed to do so but there should be no requirement for Americans to change to suit others.
So, to your way of thinking anyone who is not Christian is not American? I was born here, and raised Christian though I am not Christian now, making me just as much and American as you, with all of the same rights under the law. If I must hide my religious beliefs, at home or my place of worship, then sir, so must you. It isn't a matter of wanting Christians to change their beliefs, it's more that those who aren't Christian are asking for it not to be forced on us.
Would you want your children to sing Jewish songs in your school's "Christmas" play? (As I was asked to do in 4th grade). Or would you feel that it was against your faith for your children to be forced to do so?
"What is good for the goose is good for the gander", reverend.
vTabz Jones: Well said! I agree totally!
Tabz Jones: Well said. I agree totally.
He said, "America is a predominantly Christian country" which is 100% true. That does not mean that every person in America or born in America is Christian.
"If you live in America and you are not Christian then you need to come to accept that Americans will celebrate Christmas their way" - again 100% true.
If you are not a Christian, he is NOT saying you are not American.
He said "America is a predominantly Christian country." Right now, a poll shows that 75% of adults are Christians. That is predominance. For those who do not know math, that means that 25% of American adults are NOT Christians! That's 75%>25%. 75% is greater than 25%. That is 75% of Christians makes America a predominantly Christian country! The 25% is a minority. Whether you believe in Christ, God,Heaven, or Hell, or NOT, does NOT mean you aren't American, it just means you aren't Christian, and you are part of the 25% non-Christian Americans!
Should we infer then that you do not use American currency since it says, "In God We Trust"? American money is definitely from the State and not from the Church. By the way, included within that "separation" is the right to practice (including singing a song).
Robert Messmer: Yes, you may sing a religious song; in your place of worship, in your home, even in a school or courthouse as long as you don't disrupt others going about their business or learning, but you may not use the public school to promote your religious singing because that violates the religious rights of others or those of no religion that don't wish to sing your song. And just what god does American currency refer to? Maybe money itself is the god, the god of money. That inscription has only been on American currency since 1954.
You Sir hit the nail on the head!!
The all seeing eye on the US treasurery notes is an Illuminati sign of the world bankers that tells us that they stole all the gold from united states and replaced the the currency with public slave backed US notes. And yes that eye sign is of their God Satan. Look at the signs that all the celebrities and politicians do right under your noses. Time to Wake up and Jesus Christ is the only way to save yourself. This is going to be a Spiritual war in every sense of the word.
Its Happy Holiday for me because this holiday belongs to ALL not just Christians. Being a survivor from Christianity I'm just tired of their whinning. Its not their holiday..They took it. Its dose not belong just to them.
If Christian's want their music then they sould welcome others and their holiday celebration. Just maybe they will learn something....But I really doubt it..You know we are just ungodly.
I agree. I said before I would like to see a UNIVERSAL holiday were everyone no matter what your faith can enjoy TOGETHER. And even if you don't follow any faith st all. A day for the world to come together as one. There is just too much HATE in the world. It's time we try peace and love for one an other PASTOR DAVE PRISON MINISTRY SERVICES BRIDGEPORT, CONNECTICUT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA prisonministry.net/btipms
Lea and Pastor Dave: Well said. I agree totally.
It is not their holiday I agree, most of their “Christmas” traditions come from Pagan roots. Being a Pagan priest myself, and an egalitarian, I also believe that all should honour the divine in however they see fit (so long it harm none), and welcome others to practice the holiday in whatever means make them feel closer to their Gos(s).
Is not the tenet of Christianity to embrace ALL peoples, regardless of creed, color, nationality, ethnicity, etc., etc.? Then how can others, not Christian, then refuse to reciprocate? In a civil society, even when there is only a perceived separation of church and state rather than an actual separation there must be respect for people's beliefs, whether you are in that group or not. I think schools would be far better of, and so would the rest of us in time, if there is some sort of classes in knowledge of other religions and cultures, rather than suppression of one religion only!
Christmas as always been and always will be about the birth of Jesus the savior of the world. People are taking the holiday and making it a political battle ground. Instead of what it is a celebration of great importance. I know a lot of people of different beliefs who look forward to the holiday season to be able to spend time with family and friends. Enjoying the peace and comfort of the season. Quit trying to shove beliefs down other people throats because you think yours is right and the rest of the world ideas are wrong and that is all this is.
Y'all better tell her Christmas is a pagan holiday based on pagan myths, cuz I'll hurt her feelings.
Yup. It's a pagan holiday. It was and is celebrated as Yule/the Winter Solstice. In ancient days it was a celebration of new light coming to the world and was adopted by the Christians to appease the pagan population. I thought this was common knowledge. Anyway, if the school is calling it a Christmas Concert then it should have Christian stuff in it, including Jesus. If it is called a Holiday Concert the they can mix it up with various other holidays that fall around the same time.
Cindy...Your additude is the problem and people like you. You need to educate yourself and stop being so selfish.
Actually, Christmas is a Christian celebration. Yule is a Pagan celebration, Hanukkah is a Jewish festival, etc,.
My family celebrates Yule, the winter solstice on which we exchange gifts and eat a festive meal together. It's a Pagan tradition that the Christians co-opted.
Easy, Jerry, relax. No need to be hurtful just cuz they don't understand the origin of the season. Some folks would like to just keep it simple and believe what they believe. As long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me or anyone else(like the followers of Islam do) its all good. I've always thought that the reason there are so many religions is cuz there are so many different points of view and paths to follow. If one chooses to do so.
Those who wrote the Gospels as well as the early Church didn't think it was important enough to record Jesus' date of birth. The closest we have is in Luke "When Shepherds watched their flocks by night..." (paraphrased), which they do during lambing season - March-April in Palestine.
Cindy, nobody is trying. To shove their beliefs down your throat, I’m so sorry you are so burdened with such ignorant animosity, and hope you learn to see all faiths as expressions of divine worship. PAX
In education there is supposed to be no preferring of one religion over another, and it seems that a primarily xian centered songfest would seem to promote Christianity. Secular music would be preferential. The Xmas season was pagan in origin, it was called Yule in Europe, let’s not forget that.. Xian’s absorbed the winter feast date and used it to celebrate Jesus birth, to further include pagans in their religion. If u sing “ deck the halls!”, you are singing a pagan song, Yule log and all! Let’s just all have fun and appreciate each other!
If you don't think Jesus should be included in Christmas, then go to work like a normal day. Americans are such yankers
If your not Christian its still your holiday..And you get the day off also.
American's are such "yankers"?? wow, how Christ-like. so little judgement and hate! I happen to be British Charles, and I am not impressed with how you represent us. what's that saying? its one of my favourites actually, Do unto others? or even a better one- Judge not lest ye be judged? Spot on mate, Cheers!
Charles I am retired from a company that operates 24/7/365 on Christmas day,those who work do so by volunteering and seniority. Some are church going Christian that work on Christmas for the money. As a Union work placed contract reads the pay for holidays and overtime.
Been there done that.
Bill Oreilly from Fox "news" invented the "war on Christmas" to rouse his conservative base. Just a little background is all-telling.
Be inclusive, ya boneheads; it's much more pleasant, kind and nice.You know; Like Santa Claus wants you to be.
Oh, I forgot: The Athiests can enjoy the rest of the days, okay?
If you want to get technical, the pagans had it first. With that said, MANY religions AND Beliefs celebrate this holiday season according to their own beliefs! So let people celebrate for God's sake! The main reason people are against Christians is because they are trying to dominate the entire holiday and make it SOLELY about THEIR RELIGION and people are fed up with it! These other religions have been around AND celebrating this holiday longer then Christianity has been around! For Christian's it about Christ, For Jews, it's about an oil lamp (I believe) for Pagan's, it's about the returning of the sun....For MANY, it's mostly about santa clause and presents! As the rommie said in Buffy The Vampire Slayer "It's share time Buffy!!"
Those Christians who want to sing and/or hear sacred Christmas music can do so in their churches or their own homes. Public schools, who serve all people of every religion, or none (as more and more people describe themselves) is not the place for Christian celebrations. Put your nativity scenes on your church owned land or private property as well. Nobody is stopping you and I'll defend your right to do so, even though I don't share your faith. And if Christians want to keep Christ in their Christmas then let them feed the hungry, visit the sick or imprisoned, help the widow and orphan in their need, etc.
WE have the 1st amendment that says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;.." The U.S. Supreme Court has said that this means the there is a wall of separation between the church (religion) and the state and that it applies to the states as well. No government, federal, state, county, township or any public government, including tax funded public schools shall use pubic taxes to promote any religion. That is the principle that keeps us all safe from having any religion use the government to promote their particular brand of dogma upon the public.
Rev. Robert Baker...Yes..its the law but its not working. The Christian religion is just being bullys again and whinning " there's a war on Christmas". I don't like getting into politics but..I'm not happy with both sides ..the Dems and Republican..Their both extreme.
Lea: Extreme conservative Republicans want to do away with the 1st amendment that states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..” and make their brand of fundi-evangelical Christianity the official religion of the nation. Democrats, who are not extremists as you allege but offer no proof, are fighting to protect and make work this amendment which protects both religion and those who want no religion in their lives - the freedom to believe or to not believe.
The problem is non-Christians celebrating Christmas!! It is a Holy Day for the masses who are celebrating the birth of Christ - hence “Christ”+”mass.”
If you’re not a Christian - stay out of the Holy Day.
They may choose to popularize, take our money, over-commercialize, big-business silliness to spoil children using Santa and his little elves using some other name.
Shouldn’t even be allowed to have Santa, as he is St Nicholas, a giving Christian remembered for his kindness to poor children.
Yes, the secular may have as many fun sprinkled “Happy family:friends days as they wish - but let us never confuse the two.
The school taking Jesus out of Christmas is sort of like taking the ice cream out of an ice cream sundae... it cannot be done.
They should call their pageant Winter Solctice Day, or some such thing...
Have fun, buy your gifts, enjoy family and friends - it’s fabulous, but it is NOT Christmas!
Oh no no no, I don't even know where to start. Ok Christmas is not your saviors birthday, all the historical evidence we can cobble together says early spring not midwinter, the early Christian church played dirty when it came to "spreading the word of god" it offered kings and lords power if they converted and a loss of allies and war if they did not, then it went out to the people and said "hey we are not the bad guys, you can keep your feast days, you just have to stop calling them after your gods and start calling them after ours and if you do we will make your lords give you the whole day off now too.
Next Santa, sorry but he's not yours either. Santa in one of his earliest myths is actually Odin who left treats and gits for children who put out food and water for him and his 8 legged horse.
Taking Jesus out of Christmas is not taking the ice cream out of a Sunday its more like taking the nuts off the top if you cant eat nuts.
And by the way no one is telling you that you can't live and believe the way you want to go to your holiday mass, do your good works, honor you god however you choose. I will fight tooth and nail to defend your right to worship your God however you want in your home and your church. But by that same point I will not let you force my children to worship your gods in schools.
No child should be foced to look at religions at school spiritual belief is a deeply personal and should only be taught at home.
Christmas was illegal in this country until 1836 as it was considered a Pagan holiday. As was mentioned above, if you want a more accurate date to celebrate the birth of Jesus, it would be in the mid-spring, not in the beginning of winter. There are so many faiths that have celebrations in December that it was easy to hide another. The early followers did that to avoid persecution. There is indeed a separation of church and faith, and thus it should remain for us all. I am not a Christian but, the rest of my family is and I enjoy watching the children open gifts, as well as family time and great food. If the day is sacred to you, keep it that way deep in your heart and spirit. If you are strong enough, you don't need to attack others who don't feel as you do. My faith is my own. If you are so insecure that you feel your holiday is being attacked, perhaps it is time to re-examine your own faith. My mother was the most Christian person I ever knew...she was open and embracing of all, and never complained that her faith was undermined by others. That's because it couldn't be undermined. Be like her. Keep your faith in your spirit and feel secure. Bright Blessings in this season of Joy, and may Peace be found in your heart.
Birthdays generally weren't even celebrated in breakaway branch of Judaism that became Christianity. When they did celebrate Christ's birth, they generally did so in April and May (the lambing season). Pope Julius I, in the fourth century commanded a committee of bishops to establish the date of the nativity of Jesus. December 25 (the day of Sol Invictus, the invincible sun) was decided upon. Not coincidentally, that is the day when the pagan world celebrated the birth of their Sun Gods -- Egyptian Osiris, Greek Apollo and Bacchus, Chaldean Adonis, Persian Mithra -- when the Zodiacal sign of Virgo (the sun is born of a virgin) rose on the horizon. Thus the ancient festival of the Winter Solstice, the pagan festival of the birth of the Sun, came to be adopted by the Christian Church as the nativity of Jesus, and was called Christmas. Dec 25 is the first day after the solstice you can actually notice the sun begin rising a bit "closer", and probably the origin of all the 'god birthdays'.
I like your comment! I believe that those before us used the sky to tell the stories that we now know as Mary and Joseph and Jesus. I have trouble believing that all these things happened. living ln Whales and turing water into wine and lots of other things. They are from the IMAGINATION of those who read the clouds and stars and other heavenly bodies. Just saying..
I am a pretty easy going person, live and let live, but I'll be perfectly honest, I don't want to hear songs about Mohammad and Alah. At a public school concert everyone, parents, teachers and kids, are a captive audience. Don't take advantage of the situation to push your religious crusade.
Exactly. I don't want to hear songs about Mohammad or Allah or Jesus!
I didn’t know there was a tax on anything pubic! I’m not sure how this relates, but it’s very interesting!
My comment is related to Rev Barker stating “...shall us pubic taxes...”
Lionheart: Tax money, collected from the public (you, me, everyone else) are not to be used to promote or fund any particular religion, Christian or otherwise. To do so is to violate the 1st Amendment that clearly states: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;.." A public school uses tax money to pay staff, pay overhead, etc and if it is promoting a Christmas pageant and/or choir concert with Christian sacred music it is using its public funds to do so and therefore violating the separation of church and state.
Yes, thank you. I was making a light hearted comment on his erroneous word reference of "pubic" taxes.
Fanatic atheistic LUNACY. I do NOT tell atheistics how or what to believe and they have no right to do so to me. HOW STUPID IS IT TO TRY TO TAKE JESUS CHRIST NAME OUT OF CHRISTMAS??????? No one's attempting to force you to believe or to observe holidays you find offensive. YOU on the other hand have NO right to try to "steal" Christmas and take Jesus CHRIST name out of it. That's insanity of a Trumpfian magnitude.
Katie Kelley: I am not an atheist, although I have problem with those people who are for they have freedom to not believe, but I am not a Christian in the vein of fundi-conservative so-called orthodox either. No one is taking Christ out of Christmas. You are free to say "Merry Christmas" send greeting cards that say "Merry Christmas", put up a nativity on your own property, sing Christmas carols if you wish, listen to Christmas hymns and carols, have a Christmas party, etc. However, you have no right to expect the state or any arm of the state, such as a public school to promote your beliefs about the Jesus and or celebrate his birth. The state and public schools are supported by the taxes of all people and shall not be used to promote your your peculiar beliefs or anyone else's peculiar religious beliefs, not even mine. Rather than trying to claim that there is a war on Christmas, which there is not for that is a fake story if I ever heard one, try living living up to Jesus's teachings to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, give care to the sick, help the orphan and widow in their need. That is to keep Christ in your Christmas, rather than trying to force others to believe as you do by using the power of the state. Happy Holidays, however you may celebrate them. Try love rather than hate for those different than you.
Correction to my post above: "...I have NO problem with those people who are for they have freedom to not believe..."
Correction to my post above: ...I have NO problem with those people who are for they have freedom to not believe...
Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter about church and state. It is not in the Constitution or Bill of Rights.
The First Amendment (Amendment I) to the United States Constitution prevents the government from making laws which respect an establishment of religion, prohibit the free exercise of religion, or abridge the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, the right to peaceably assemble, or the right to petition the government for redress of grievances. It was adopted on December 15, 1791, as one of the ten amendments that constitute the Bill of Rights.
Read more at https://www.themonastery.org/blog/2018/12/virginia-school-bans-jesus-from-christmas-concert/#d98lMR0zvcIjoIqz.99
The USA has always been known as a Christian nation. This is the way we have been since before the Constitution was written and we are still that Christian Nation. Except for the statement that Barrack Obama proclaimed when he was president and said "we are no longer a Christian nation" he was wrong then as well as his statement was wrong until we are no longer a nation. Yes our country has numerous other religions that have settled here under the guise of joining our country; they came to the USA to find a better world to live in. Christianity has left its imprint on the way we have always been the nation of hope, security, prosperity and love that is missing in non-Christian nations. Why are people trying to change our country's success?
We are not, and never will be a "Christian Nation". The founding fathers never wanted us to be. Get your head out of your butt and study. Christmas was outlawed until 1836. It isn't a Christian Holiday. If Jesus had been born on December 25, he would have been buried with every other celebration. If he was born at all, it was in April or May. What a douch.
Doesn't any of you remember the pledge aligence in school.. It says, One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all . God is mention to us school back then. But all you politically correct idiots were so hurt by that they had to change it to appease the masses.. This is what weakened the United States...it doesn't matter if you believe in God or not,, he believes in you and Jesus Christ is the only way to the father.
"Under God" was added in 1954 during the height of the "commie" scare when McCarthy was attempting to subvert the government.
Thanks for the history lesson, but that's not the point. The fact that God left a message in our DNA is proof of his existence. It would be far worse for those who know the truth and shun God than those who did not.
Your cognitive programing knows no bounds Mr Post.
You cannot HAVE Christ-mass without Jesus. Damn those fools to hell with Satan and his evil demonic horrors. Preventing people from singing joyful songs is in and of itself utterly evil...unless the "songs" are porno or hate inspired.
“Damn those fools to hell.....”
That sounds like a very naughty thing to say coming from a Christian. It sounds like a few “Hail Mary’s” are going to be coming up in that confession box thing, and then straight out if the church into the pub.
Tell me, do you go to the pub first, then the church, and then back to the pub? I’ve often wondered how that works for you god fearing catholic’s. Just asking!
Your Cognitive programing knows no bounds.
May God have mercy on your soul
Thank you. Do you have any particular fictitious god in mind?
I hope he’s better than the Old Testament god. He was very unforgiving, with huge anger management issues. Thor wasn’t much better.
Isis was very cute. She loved Osiris to the point that she brought him back from the dead, so if there is one I hope it’s her.
cath O Lic CHRISTian, What a decidedly UN-Christian thing to say! I will never understand how a religion that claims to revere a man who spoke of universal love and acceptance has become so vehemently hateful. So many different (and much older) religions have celebrated the Winter Solstice for thousands of years. Long before Christianity, and the other Abrahamic traditions, were even born.
You'd do better to actually follow the teachings of your Christ, and develop a better sense of tolerance and charity, than to spew so much venom into the world.
Show me in the bible.where it says Dec 25 was the birth of Jesus....I'll WAIT
You will be waiting for a LOOOOOONG time ?
christmas is a messed up amalgam of paganism and capitalist driven marketing with a tiny bit of christian stuff mixed in... decorating trees was once seen as so sinful as to be an instant ticket to hell because it was a pagan tradition...
the santa clause figure is moslty coka colas invention borrowing form finish art of folklore figures (basically brownies)
the red clothing may have originated with redcaps (seen in the overlord anime... basically they have to drench their hats in blood on a regular basis to keep alive so they are deadly killers... Satan Claws anyone lol)
christians have provided some of the music... most of the rest they basically stole or borrowed whole sale...
Christianity is basically all about cultural misappropriation until all other cultures die away to history.
a bunch of bloody cultural vandals if you ask me!
Christmas, December 25, is not Jesus' birthday. Although it cannot be pinpointed, most scholars think it was in March or April (using the modern Gregorian calendar. No known calendar puts his BD on an equivalent of December 25 or even in the December equivalent. There are christian "scholars" who claim he was conceived in April so had to be born 9 months later, but that theory is debunked by their own bible in all 4 gospels.
As a federal holiday in the US, it is unconstitutional and should be replaced with something/some one important to the governance of the nation. Or simply removed from the calendar as an official holiday. That would not mean celebrations can't be held - only that the government would no longer try to force Americans to be christians.
And all the christians claiming Christmas is part of their worship - one of ya'll show me in your bible where it says you have to observe or even acknowledge it. Or just show me the term "christmas" in your bible.
It's a Pagen Holiday.Christians try to make it theirs. Let it Be...
If you mention one religion, you must allow mention of ALL religions (including Satanism, dear friends).
Why not keep religion for the churches, and learning for the schools?
Hello Fellow Brothers & Sisters
Christmas will always be Christmas - a celebration of Jesus Christ's birth - how people celebrate it is on them.. most will celebrate with Christ and others without. If you are going to exclude mention of one religion - then remove mention of ALL religion... in celebration / in teachings / in acknowledgements & in this hyper sensitive crazy world we live in...
Either include All - or exclude All...
BUT --- i you are going to teach about the religions of the world, then teach or share all religions - all the great things about each and every one...
However you celelbrate - may it be full of love life and laughter - from our home to yours - may you have a very Merry Christmas & have a Glorious New Year!!!
Let's get real people! It is not a matter of whether is is a church and state issue, the issue is that Christmas was illegal until 1867 because it was thought to be a pagan holiday. Which the truth is the traditions celebrated today as the Christian Christmas were fashioned from Pagan traditions to help convert the Pagans to Christianity because they refused to leave their old traditions behind upon joining the Christian Faith. This is a time when Christians choose to celebrate the birth of Jesus, however historic Jewish records show he was actually born in April. So everyone getting all bent out of shape about the downfall of Christmas as the Christian community knows it is foolish. Maybe you should be thinking with the mind of Christ instead of the the mind of Man. Honor him in your own ways and traditions. Jesus communed with the sinners, not judge them.
Can't we all just finally admit or realize that Christmas is a plagiarized holiday, and enjoy our milk and cookies?
That makes entirely too much sense. ?
*Gasp! How dare you bring logic into a religious conversation! LOL
PS. I like Snickerdoodles 0.o
I love dark chocolate peanut butter chip cookies
The “War on Christmas” simply does not exist. It is a phrase propagated by Bill O’Reilly to stir up Christian Fundamentalists. I grew up around this kind of propaganda and it is nothing but POISON that serves to divide people and cause hate and contention. Those who are screaming about “keeping Christ in Christmas” would do well to remember what James said true religion was...looking after the widow and the orphan, etc.. Perhaps they should also consider what Jesus said was most important (loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself). I do not begrudge anyone their religion, as mine is deeply important to me. However, I do not expect the public schools to instruct my children about Yule, Ostara, Beltane, Samhain, etc. Religious instruction ought to take place in homes and centers on worship. The public schools are not the place for that. If you want your child to sing Christian religious songs at school, perhaps send them to a Christian school.
members of the early christian church would disagree... mainly in that they where the one fighting against it... daring to decorate a tree once was considered a one way ticket to hell by the early christian church X3
wonder what Bill O'Reily would say about that lol.
I'm sorry... this is getting ridiculous. It's music, it's a music choir, it's Christmas (which begins with Christ). Students are too sensitive. Instead of talking about uncomfortable things... they just dismiss them. What are we raising our children to think? That you just have to silence every other opinion or different view. How will they be able to live in a world of diversity?
Why doesn't everyone just shut up? Live and let live. Everyone should do what they want and believe what they want and the others, whether they agree or not, should just shut the hell up and mind their own business.
No one is saying that people can't believe what they want, what they are saying is that it does not belong in state/federal funded school. There are plenty of non-denominational carols that can be sung and other holiday traditions that are indeed more secular and more populous friendly.
If you want to celebrate as your religion dictates, then do so as you would wish others to do, in your own home and places of worship. Schools and public events should include everyone, that is what they are for. Not to praise one religion over another.
It's not a war on Christmas. It's the war against Christ.
I’m not seeing how you can have a war against something that possibly never existed.
oldaabill: Jesus never declared himself as Christ (anointed one). He was declared by others, long after his death to be Christ. I challenge you to read a couple books that are undoubtedly outside your comfort zone. You might learn something. "When Jesus Became God: The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome" by Richard Rubenstein; and "Jesus Before Christianity" by Albert Nolan.
Just like the Satanists =man wrote those books .The Bible is the word of God. And God said, "let no man take away or add any words from the Holy gospel. Unfortunately Constitain removed the book of Enoch which he will pay dear for. The book of Thomas, the dead sea scrolls, were hidden like Jesus told the apostles until the appointed time. Jesus knew man would change the Bible to suit thier needs to rule and control the masses. There is nothing hidden that will be not be uncovered, all secrets will be revealed. When you have read all the Bible's and all the other religions scriptures like I have, then talk to me. The book of Thomas was the most ENLIGHTENING book of the Bible. Not only does it tell you how to pray, but the way to do it. The book of Enoch is a more detailed version of Genesis and Revelation. If you truly a Godly person, watch Gregg Braden's videos on the book of Thomas and he found the message that God put in our DNA. .
Minister Post: Men, and men only, wrote all the books you cite above. These writings are merely the thoughts of men and what they believed at that time. Believe what you wish.
You might want to read this critique of Gregg Braden and his God Code.
What Happened to Gregg Braden? — A critique of his latest work: The God Code Mar 2004 An ex-computer programmer, Braden presents himself as a scientist and modern-day prophet at the cutting edge of research into our collective destiny and the science of prayer. Here is a review from a lecture promoting his latest book, The God Code.
This was the biggest load of pseudoscience I have heard for a long time, and it was delivered in a thoroughly patronizing manner (his target audience when preparing this material can only be imbecilic). I cannot understand this because none of this comes through in his previous work — although I have never heard him lecture before, I have read his previous books, some of which were fantastic and are recommended on this site. I have also listened to one radio interview, which was great.
Read the whole critique here: https://realitymaps.com/2004/03-godcode.html
I have watched Gregg Bradens lectures and other sciencetist that I have de-coded the part of the DNA that it's only function was a message from our creator that says, "This is Yahweh, now you know my secret and share it with my children in peace" . That's EXTRODENARY to me. God left this message for when we had the technology to find it. I know God exists. I have experienced many miracles from our creator. This changes everything about the lies of humanity being evolved from apes. God separated the waters as above and below. The people that don't believe in our creator doesn't matter. He knows them and the harvest of the elect will meet Jesus in the air and our bodies will be immortal and those not written in the book of life will be judged whether people believe in God or not.
CHRIST MASS, end of story
“Christ Mass” as you put it was created in the year 336AD by the first Christian Roman emperor Constantine; before that, it was, and almost all its traditions belonged to paganism. Educate yourself reverend. PAX
So, we can have Christmas without Christ? So then get together and make a new reason to celebrate MAS as this would not include Christ. The other members should be the same idiots that voted to allow girls into the BOY Scouts which still makes no sense, but that is neither here nor there. Hey adults.....ask the kids if they want to stop celebrating Christmas for whatever BS reasoning you want to give them, but make sure you let them know that they won't be getting presents either and school will not have a Christmas break....BOOHOO!!!! When exactly did this world as a whole become such a bunch of criers?? (Answer not required but feel free to chime in with some other type of BS. Before you do, remember this, I truly don't care what you think or feel and I look forward to each day that my words offend some self-righteous idiot.)
Thank you Sir for telling like it is. Have you noticed the attack on Christianity. As a whole..Bible scripture says that the hearts of many will grow cold. Jesus said, and you will be persacuted in my namesake. Many will go on deceiving and being deceived.. God bless you Sir and your family this Christ - Mas.
Minister Post: Bible thumpers like you and others on this thread have the idea that if you quote or threaten people with the bible that trumps everyone else. It doesn't because not everyone here considers the bible as the infallible, inerrant, literal and final word of god. It is not. You're the only ones who so believe, which you're entitled. But stop trying to stuff that BS don't the rest of our throats. We don't buy it and we are not frightened by threatening us with god's judgement. The bible in its various parts was written by many fallible humans over millennia and merely reflects human understandings of god at any one time.
Sadly Santa has taken over the December holidays. The Hallmark cards in the local Walmart racks does not display even one nativity scene/related card. How many kids younger than 12 can recite the Lords prayer from memory? How many like me see parents avoiding the baptizing of their newborn. We hear reports from Pakistan that Christians are being killed for their belief. Yet we are compelled to live in an "inclusive" society. It seems that day by day more and more Christianity is being destroyed. How soon before we take a stand, draw a line in the sand and say "No more"!
There are also reports from around the globe, especially in southern Africa, where women and some men are still being burned and stoned for being "witches"(anything that isn't fundamental Christian). Should Pagans do what you are suggesting and become militant against Christians? Should it all come down to the bloody Holy War that every religious nutcase in the world seems to long for? Fight it out until the World is laid bare?
What of the things your Christ taught? Compassion, tolerance, love for each other and the Earth? How does "drawing a line in the sand" accomplish any of that?
You religion is failing not because of anything that anyone outside of it is doing, but because of the constant fighting and hatred you show for each other and non-Christians alike. "A house divided cannot stand", and your house has been divided for a very long time.
Shalom, it is interesting that many of the pagans in here got it right, and the Church Christian's are clueless. Saturnalia a pagan practice where men died on December 25th, was renamed by Constantine's group to Christmas meaning, anointed - departure. Look it up in history books under Constantine / Christmas. The Catholic Church continue the practice of killing the anointed person, the Christ until the year 400 AD. It has not always been the birthday of HeZeus/Jesus, and Jesus is not the savior of the world, Yahweh is. Isaiah 49 last verse, to those that believe in the Bible. December 25 has always been the birthday of the Sun (following a couple days after the solstice.) I saw on Facebook, one school made all the young kids pray to God/Allah, that should not permitted, or the Pagan practice of Saturnalia/Christmas, or any other religion. Shalom, Allen
But Yahweh loosely translated means Jesus..
Yahweh is God's own name
So is Yahweh his Christian name :)
Does he have a surname :)
God has had many names through the different religions.
ok, think on this kings queens made folks pay a tax to support the own the people had little choice right. from one is many look at how people died for letting it be known they have different ideas yet paid for their oppression by religious taxes from whom ever was leader that's what old dead dude did not like paying to have a theocracy that's Rome not a place of free men all the religious arguments are between each religion that wants to rule the world. everyone who said have a everybody time one thing that unites is capitalism make them green backs the ones in control are the ones placed in your imagination by the ad shrinks. who cares who stole old myths and claimed them as theirs they made it up. hobbits are cool. one man creates a tale and people sell their ideas of his made up world. yule xmas that's chritmas no crist greek onited one it's all words dog backwards is god lived is devil evil is live. history is never written by the losers right!
Have two celebrations on the same day: Christmas for the religious, "Santa Day" or whatever for those that just want a commercial holiday. If someone sponsors a Christmas pageant or some such, Christ will be in attendance. If it's a Santa Festival, Christ will not be invited to attend. Something for everyone.
Political correctness has pushed Jesus away from his own birthday and it appears to be normal in many circles. We will celebrate Jesus on the 25th. in our own way.
Just as a suggestion, if Christians ever want to move away from their choosing of Dec 25th, you will find that October 10th is recognized as National Mental Awareness Day in the US. The month of May might be closer to your liking though as that month has been observed in the United States since 1949, as Mental Health Awareness Month reaching millions of people through the media, local events, and screenings.
Your reply just confirms that you are the sheep waiting for the slaughter. The way for many is wide and the way of the righteous is narrow. Wake Up before it's to late. Your MKUltra programing seems to be be working perfectly.
Which do you offend first. Which of the 7000 Christian denomination do offend first. Wonder if the music was played instead of any mention of words would it still offend people.
Why do people get so upset of some school children singing Christmas songs. It's just a play for the children to show the parents how grateful they are during this holiday season. Get over it people.!!!
Christmas is the birthday of Jesus. It’s a Christian holiday. Commercialism has grown it to so much more but it is stil a Christian Holiday. People of all faiths and beliefs (including Atheists) have jumped on to celebrating Christmas. They love the “Santa Fun” of all of it. That’s fine. But do not celebrate what is a Christian holiday then knock out the whole reason for it. Christ is the Heart Of Christmas. If you don’t want Christ in Christmas then don’t celebrate Christmas.
Secularism is for grownups.