Should women who have an abortion be put to death? That’s the question Tennessee lawmakers are considering thanks to a bill making headlines across the country.
A proposed amendment for Tennessee House Bill 570/Senate Bill 738 would allow the state to charge women who have an abortion with homicide, with punishments ranging from life imprisonment to the death penalty.
The bill specifies that any harm done to an “unborn child” is tantamount to injuries upon a person “born alive,” meaning that terminating a pregnancy is murder. The bill makes no exceptions in cases of rape or incest, though it does not apply to cases of “spontaneous miscarriage,” nor would it apply retroactively to abortions prior to the bill’s passage.
If enacted, the legislation would make Tennessee the most punitive state in the nation when it comes to abortion law.
Pro-life Christians are cheering on the bill, arguing it finally treats abortion as the horrendous crime they allege it is. Meanwhile, pro-choice activists say that the bill is a dangerous overreach by religious politicians seeking to subjugate women.
Is Abortion Murder?
“Murder is murder. I know that’s hard for people to hear, and I don’t mean to be hard with it, I promise,” is what bill co-sponsor Rep. Monty Fritts said when asked about his endorsement of legislation which would result in the arrest and possible execution of hundreds if not thousands of Tennessee women.
“[Abortion should be a] capital crime because we have failed to identify that tiny little, jelly-bean-sized baby as a human being. If we kill a human being, we have to say it is murder."
The bill has drawn broad support from anti-abortion evangelicals, including the Foundation to Abolish Abortion, who states their mission is "to exalt and vindicate the image of God by promoting sound public policy that provides all preborn human beings the equal protection of the laws.”
In a press release, they added that “under this legislation, murdering anyone would be made illegal for everyone, ensuring that all humans made in the image of God are equally protected in accordance with the Tennessee Constitution, the United States Constitution, and the Law of God.”
Southern Baptist Convention President Clint Pressley similarly threw his support behind the bill, stating it will “provide preborn children with equal protection of the laws.”
Pro-Choice Advocates Respond
“There’s nothing pro-life about this bill,” said the Center for Reproductive Right’s Israel Cook. “Pregnant people are already suffering under Tennessee’s extreme abortion ban.
And now, state lawmakers want to sentence pregnant people to death for pregnancy outcomes and getting abortions,” Cook explained. “People deserve respect and compassion, not this cruel, heartless treatment for getting essential health care.”
And some Democratic lawmakers pushed back on the bill, denouncing it as a dangerous and terrifying government overreach. As State Rep. Aftyn Behn put things, "we should be very scared. That is a very, very scary step the state is about to take.”
What Happens Next?
The bill’s fate is currently up in the air, but even many pro-life advocates aren’t on board with long prison sentences for getting an abortion – let alone execution.
And yet, supporters argue the bill is about consistency and equal protection under the law. Because they view an unborn child as a life, they demand that the same legal consequences should exist for ending it as they do for any other life.
No matter where you stand on the issue, this would be an unprecedented expansion of state power over women’s bodies and even their lives. With stakes this high, the consequences of how lawmakers respond could reshape the conversation around abortion for years to come.
What is your response? A fair application of law, or religious extremism run amok?
131 comments
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Janice L Service
TN attempt to impose this law is another male bastion strike at subjugation of women. No consideration should be given to laws that can result in gender based prosecution.
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Merlin
Such hypocrisy. Christianity did not hesitate to kill when served their purpose.
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Minister Rob
Nor did any other "religion"
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Jessica Forbes
They need make a limit on how many children you can have while below the poverty level no more then 3. And then held responsible for doing something even tubes tied to not allow that. You can charge them or fine them or whatever then if not responsible. There wouldn't be a darn thing wrong with criminalizing births you can't afford or don't want. Make it there responsibility before a baby's made. Any that choose to go forth can't adopt if can't pay off go to jail. Might as well. Yes I really feel that way. Many parents can't have babies. Many want them. And we don't owe them supporting children other people can and they keep making.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
This could sound like control. Control seems to be the main issue in all of this, no? Imagine a way to create change without engaging in control. Control is very often our attempt to deal with a fear. What if we weren't afraid, what might this world look like?? Be well.
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Lawyer John
This bill is not only unjust but unchristian. Jesus did not condone murder.
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Rev. Fr. Craig Goral D.D.
What about the males who got the person pregnant? For example incest when an 8 year old gets pregnant? The guy is protected but the little girl is not?
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Jannetje Eleanore Van Went
1 - Women aren't usually the only person who wants the abortion, (when they go to the clinic to have an abortion they fill out a form, an unsolicited review of these forms in the US showed 75% of the reasons why they were at the clinic showed the reason the woman was having the abortion was because the father didn't want her to keep it, the father wouldn't help support it or pay for the hospital costs, and the mother could not afford it, or have it on their own) So another solution to murdering the mother, is free prenatal care, free birthing fees and free custody law hearings for women. Even better if you paid women to have and raise the people who build the industries, world and become the leaders, women could care for them on their own and men would stay with the family, families would be stronger and parent's would stay together longer. When your government makes abortions more affordable than birth, raising children and child care, is this not targeting women with a set up, then finding a reason to kill them for a choice they can't afford to make. Why aren't men punished when they are also included in the abortion process, this isn't even talked about or considered making it a clear attack on women, its control and oppression (no one is killing leaders who are at war, people are being eliminated in war too, but the men making those life choices are not punished by death- yet...war over if they were) #2 - If murder is the true reason for this judgement and not just an oppressive attack on women and their rights to the birthing process God gave them...Then when the person who put the mother to death over a judgement, murders her for having an abortion, then why is the person who murdered her not put to death for her murder...literally they committed 2 murders the mother and the unborn baby....these and more question unravel the truth here, this is an obvious attack on women's rights, and an oppressive action to control women's rights and minimize the position of the most powerful women in the USA...what's the fear men in Tennessee, on this House Bill 570/Senate Bill 738, Do women out number men in your state? I am not sure how many people are into the old world biblical word, but there is a text that says this process resembles the system of the damned...where there will be a chain of killing when killing those who kill for killing will kill us all, once you take this action all those who kill the person who killed will also need to be killed for killing...this chain never ends. Damned if we do, damned if we don't...you pay at the hand of your God for moral misjudgment after life, why are people acting for Gods in the USA...God Complex? Do the US senators not trust their Gods will prevail?
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Minister Rob
Jannetje Eleanore Van Went, please use regular font! I didn't even read 1/3 of it because of how obnoxious it is!
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Mark S Laudenslayer
You have got to be kidding.. font (like many other "differences") is immaterial.
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Minister Rob
maybe to you! To me, it's the same as writing in ALL CAPS!! So to you Kind Sir, I say God Bless your Soul!
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Leslie A. Hulberg Née Tomasura
I believe that this is one of the hardest decisions a couple or a woman has to make.
Remember, not all abortion are because you don’t want to have a child. Many of them are medically necessary to save the life of the person carrying the child and/or to be able to have children in the future. This is a personal decision and not something a governing body should be involved in. There are too many factors involved in the reasons why for it to be anything even discussed between anyone outside of doctors and their patients.
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Evone L Payton Banks (Minister/Rev non denominational)
I'm going to keep this short and sweet. To force any woman is rape. To force based on a Holy book that teaches against such things is worse. May God have mercy on this law. It is naturally and spiritually wrong. It will cause more damage than good. I cannot wholly put trust in any man let alone men that would support a law that may lead to depression or worse.
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Interesting article I politely disagree & do not support those two bills from Tennessee. Perhaps we need to revamp government & Women's rights. A new President could bring back prochoice & roe vs wade. We have not had a women president yet. Abortions can be legalizes again & the right to choose a the women's. What this younger generation had to deal with because or the antibortion laws is an outrage. Highschoolers getting pregnant & having babies in the bathroom born dead. Bring back planned parenthood & the safety of abortions legally & covered thru insurances. Modernize women s health for the greater good. blest be amen.
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Miriam Gates
Well if a woman is pregnant and is killed, or is hurt and the child dies whoever is guilty will be charged with fetacide and sentenced with the death of the child. Basically if the abortion didn’t happen, a child is born. Abortion is used like birth control or hiding sexual abuse etc. if you will look in a mirror and think, I was glad I was born. Or maybe you may wished you had been aborted?
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David Buck
I am pretty right-leaning, but this is way beyond the pale. Have we been transported back to the 1940s? Sorry but this is ridiculous.
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Luis I Vazquez
Abortion is murder, it's in the Bible
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Rev. Kev
And yet.....there are no verses in the bible that say that without some heavy-duty negotiating with the scriptures to make that happen.
Let's not forget that Bible has stories of God-ordered killings of entire cities. Which included unaliving the pregnant women (only the young virgins had any value and were split among the warriors). In Jewish culture, a baby was not (sometimes still is not) even recognized as a living soul until after it was born and drew its first breath.
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Janice L Service
Adultery is punishable by death. A man who marries a divorced woman is committing adultery. A woman who marries a divorced man is committing adultery. It's all in the bible. But we don't pass laws allowing us to kill people based on "It's in the bible.".
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Lion on the Beach
Responsibility. Discipline. Accountability. 3 things a female needs to take into action before she even puts herself in line at the abortion clinic. This is not about controlling females.
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Janice L Service
How can you say it's not about controlling females? If the law is passed she would not be allowed to consider the "3 things" you name. Nor would she be allowed to put herself in line.
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Jack Anthony Wilson
This is not justice. Most women don’t take abortion lightly. Many see it as the only choice left. For those that say it is a criminal act, I say, “Will you step up and raise these children?” I know you are quick to cast the first stone but that only makes you a hypocrite.
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Travis A. Lee
So many laws against Abortion. Yet None really made to Protect the CHILD. The one that comes FROM the Fetus. Sad commentary on the U.S. and other Countries who rule by "Religion" instead of Human Compassion.
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Cameron Lewis
It is simple keep religion and law out of the uterus ...PERIOD.
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Ronald A Sherwood
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
I've never liked the idea of abortion, but this type of fanatisicm - religious or otherwise - has got to stop. If your beliefs allow you to steal, kill or destroy, you are serving the wrong master.
Let the wheat and the tares grow together, and let God separate them at the end of days.
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Rodolfo Perez Jr
So many people want to control other people…Stop! Abortions are not murder. Let people lead their own lives within the common sense laws that protect us all. Tolerance and love are the highest virtues. Live by example and not by bullying people and do not flash your “false piousness” like a badge. Kindness and understanding shall light the way.
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Minister Rob
"Tolerance and love are the highest virtues." What about for the Un-Born HUMANS?!?!?! No tolerance and love for them?!?!?!
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Rev. Kev
What about the already born HUMANS?
The question isn't who is a human. It's who has the status of personhood and who has the faculties to choose the baes tcourse for all involved. Especially in cases on medical issues that arise during the course of the pregnancy.
Pregnancies can be a very hazardous business. They don't all go smooth and free of complications. Look up all the diseases and fatalities that can occur during a pregnancy.
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Rev. Kev
typo error: choose the best course for all involved.
Of course, this entire debate is only relevant to a limited set of people who adhere to a certain religious belief. They are perfectly free to follow their beliefs. But I think everyone else should have no such obligation forced upon them through legislation.
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James Adams
In a world where abortion is debated loudly in politics and culture, the Church must remember our posture.
Jesus made it clear in Matthew 22:37–40: Love God with all your heart. Love your neighbor as yourself.
That means we stand on conviction, but we walk in compassion.
If we believe life is sacred, then our words must also give life. If we believe in truth, then we must carry it with grace. Scripture reminds us in Romans 12:17 not to repay evil for evil.
So we pray for the mother. We pray for the child. We disciple the believer. We love the unbeliever.
Truth without love becomes harshness. Love without truth becomes compromise. But truth wrapped in love reflects Christ.
Let the Church be known for both.
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Tami Tabone
This is just another way to control women. So if you are going say mudlrder is murder, you have to agree with no death penalty and ICE shooting people is murder. But it seems like many who claim to be religious, only follow it for their oen agenda. If you have never been raped and pregnant, been a victim of incest, a pregnant child, or you are not a woman, you got nothing to say. In addition, not everyone is Christian. Not everyone believes a fetus is a baby. It is overstepping to take religion into politics. Politics represent everyone, but religion does not.
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Gayle Ventimiglia
I can’t believe we are still debating healthcare for women. Abortion is not murder and no one has the right to tell a woman what she should do with her body. THE GOP and these religious white nationalists only want to control, dehumanize and punish those who don’t follow their beliefs. Jesus loves and accepts all as we are. Why does MAN (white men) feel the need to control and feel powerful. They are cowards, bullies and need to face Jesus.
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Walter Abington
The Bible claims life begins with the first breath of life. A fetus is not a baby. Fascists are always wanting full control over you. They want to impose their version of an evil law to the point of death. Absolutely not to support any kind of religious law. Just say No! No vote for politicians who support this crap.
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William Mark Foster
WHEN will Pro-life Lawmakers READ their Bibles ? The Bible ALLOWS for abortion, as the unborn is the property of the man, and for the life of the woman. NUMEROUS times the Bible says, “life BEGINS at BIRTH”! “..and breathed into his nostrils and Life entered into ..” “Breathed the breath of life into him.” “Life is in the blood.” READ your Bibles as these are why abortion was a non-issue to Jesus as He KEPT the Law and the Commandments.
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Wayne L Christensen
No and we were given free choice. This choice was to learn our way back to God, not be dictated to, for the benefits of others. God knows everything, including those who willfully suggest the killing of another to satisfy their twisted ideas of what God wants of each of his children. We cannot know the motivations for each persons decision. We do not know if the child is sick; woman raped. We need to teach about God's love, and begin to do evil because we think something is evil, without knowledge. And pretending only your beliefs are the only right, then you do not know or understand God.
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William Mark Foster
The “free will” you mention was to choose between sinning (breaking the Law) or not to sin (by keeping the Law). You go off topic and completely scorn the Laws of Moses and the practices of Jesus. “Personal opinions, beliefs, and considerations” are not in the Biblical equation. It’s very safe to say, you have never read your Bible. Your attack on both Moses and Jesus leave Bible readers no other choice than to dismiss you as “not knowing Him.” I hope I read your comment correctly as this is not an opinion page.
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Wayne L Christensen
Thank you for your words.
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Tom Herman
Funny how these religious zealots forget there is a separation of church and state. Also, their views on pro-life. They are hypocrites and a cancer in society.
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Patricia Law
when will woman become a equal human being will ability to choose her own fate inside of an extension of a man with total power over her!!
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Roy S. Thorpe
These legislators got elected by a group who's IQ are below the national level! Fact! The dumbing down of America is happening! Fact! As long as this goes on, the illiterate masses will control the nation's destiny! Learning used to be the thing! Now its internet and video games! 40% of college entrants can not put a cognitive sentence together or understand it!Fact! Duh!
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Robin Ann Macquarrie
Every man that supports this extreme legislation should be required to have a vasectomy. That would prevent so many unwanted pregnancies.
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DAG of Hamburg
They actually should be castrated just to be sure.
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Rev. Kev
This is a case of politicians pandering to believers who are all about dogma over data. It literally has nothing to do with being "pro-life" as much as being blindly anti-abortion with no thought about all the lives involved. Especially from a political party (primarily) that has taken away things like food assistance and medical help from adults (including pregnant women) and children. So...sure. Let's add on literally being anti-life to people who most often are taking an action based on necessity or medical advice. Who cares about the actual, human conditions when there's uninformed beliefs to feel all self-righteous about (or get those single issue voters to the ballot boxes)?
No one should be forced to abide by the religious beliefs of others under threat of law. If a person's religious beliefs prohibit them from seeking an abortion, I support their right to not get one. If a person has no such personal prohibition, I equally support their right to have one in a safe environment performed by a medical professional. Free country (supposedly). Different people. Different cultures. Different or no religions.
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Donna Christ
So this country want to kill women ,oh how wonderful.Im pro- choice
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Robert M Carter
So pro-life they'll kill you???
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Jodie C. Lenser
The pro-life movement has never been 'pro-life', simply anti-choice. This is a further measure to control women, using religion as the justification. Murdering women who end their pregnancies--- 'pro-lifers' at their finest.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Jodie,
Agreed, and the pro-choice movemet has never been pro-abortion, simply pro-body autonomy for women.
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Steven Ferrell
What is interesting is that a woman can be on her way to murder her child and in that case it is not considered a human being.
Yet if someone hits her car on her way there which causes her to lose the child, that person can be charged with killing the baby and also be sued for killing the same baby the mother was on the way to murder, because now all of a sudden it is a human.-
Rev. Kev
That's less about being an apparent paradox and more about laws on the books in some states put there by politicians to raise the very point you brought up here and establish an arbitrary, legislated concept of personhood for a fetus. Which can backfire. Because it was never thought out. Just another way to pander to voters for a political end.
Meh.
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Wayne L Christensen
In your first scenario. The child is an extension of the woman and not a child. It is a fetus, and has no life of its own. If born it no longer is a part of the woman but a child who needs good, water, and shelter. How this child depends on the love, kindness, nurturing it can receive from those who are also alive. We cannot no know the motivations to terminate a fetus and deprive it if life, and it should not be made by those who are not a part of the decision making, whether it is a team or the woman's decision.
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John R Liming
We need to protect the separation of church and state because even Jesus said that His Kingdom is not of THIS WORLD (The earthly world) so while abortion is really the destruction of a human being that God created and intended to come into this world, I believe it can be only described as murder... and the Bible specifically prohibits murder as far as I can tell. But I cannot answer the question about whether a so-called "Medically Necessary Abortion" is a reasonable concept. I believe that comes under the auspices of faith but I do not believe that it should be something legislated by governments. This is just my personal opinion. It is far too complex a problem for something like me, a layman preacher, to try to answer.
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PKBW
I am not for abortion but for that state it might help out on the inbreeding.
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Joseph Grieco
Here's a reminder - go through the Bible from cover to cover. In the entirety of the Old and New Testaments, the only place where abortion is mentioned is in the Books of Moses where instructions are given on how to safely abort an unwanted fetus. "But what about Jeremiah? But what about Samuel?" Those are cases of predestination where G_D has designated them HIS prophets. And, like most people listed in the OT, there is no historical record of either. Neither "Jeremiah" nor "Samuel 1 and 2" were written before the period of the Babylonian captivity, well after the death of both. What if their mothers had suffered a miscarriage? Under Tennessee Law, the mother would be investigated for murder. If it was found they was incapable of ensuring proper medical care, they would be charged with murder - even if the reason for no medical care was because of Tennessee's refusal to certify the mothers for Medicaid.
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Gordon Tittsworth
I love that we are getting more strict! We are dressing up infanticide and slaughtering unborn babies with words like "right to choose". In reality, unborn babies are being dismembered and discarded and people are saying that we are taking way their rights when we are opposed to this brutal and barbaric act. I cannot understand this!
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Joseph Grieco
So, a fetus which has no chance of survival outside the womb without extreme medical intervention, and the continued carrying of said fetus would result in the death of the mother is ok according to you, right?
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DAG of Hamburg
If you can't understand it then get busy adopting babies that are birthed with severe deformities and complications- it's God's wish that you do this.
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Rev. Kev
Just curious how that matches up with the infanticide and slaughtering unborn babies ordered by God in the Bible?
Or is it not really the unalivings that matter as much who is claimed to be orchestrating it? Is it totally cool as long as someone has a note from God?
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Joseph Grieco
Prior to 1980, there was no "Abortion Issue". Yes, there were some minor protests here and there after Roe was declared "Law of the Land". But you know who didn't think it was an issue? Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Baker, Oral Roberts and Billy Graham. Yep, none of the leading Evangelical Christians had a problem. You know who did? The Knights of Columbus and most of the Roman Catholic Bishops. As far as the GOP knew, there was no problem. It wasn't until Ronald Reagan formed the unholy alliance with the Evangelical Christian Community that this suddenly became an issue. This current Supreme Court has decided that in additions to corporations being people, that Stare Decisis no longer governs them. Roe was the first to fall, allowing a rag-tag set of laws governing availability of abortion. Too many of them rely on what they call the "Fetal Heartbeat" rule. If a fetus has a heartbeat, it cannot be aborted. Fetal Heartbeat is detectible at 6 weeks. At that time, a fetus is around 1/4 inch long. Consider that at 22 weeks, a fetus only has a 5% survival rate outside of the womb (and that's in a NICU). Tennessee, under control of people with no scientific or medical background, but who claim to be well versed in the Bible, want to make it not only illegal to obtain an abortion, but carry the same penalties as someone who brings a gun into a school and starts shooting. Texas is now illegally obtaining information from EZPass and companies that run Speeding and Red Light cameras to find out if Texas women have been travelling out of state to obtain abortions, in order to sue the providers. That's because the Airlines, Amtrak, and Greyhound refuse to release that information. Someone needs to remind Texas that under federal law, someone performing a medical procedure that's legal in their state cannot be charged under Texas law if that procedure takes place outside of Texas. The GOP in charge of Congress claims they want to make a national anti-abortion bill, or even an Amendment covering the same. With the exception of the 18th, every Amendment to the US Constitution has been to grant or confirm "Rights", not to take them away. Nothing has been presented in any congressional committee. Even the GOP is not united on this. Obergefell is already in their sights for either overturning or federal law. The only reason Loving isn't is too many high-profile Republicans (including Clarence Thomas) are already involved in Mixed Race marriages. So, something about overturning Loving and Thomas being arrested when he goes home to Virginia (the state and his wife) would be poetic justice.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Prior to Roe v. Wade, the "abortion issue" was women getting them done illegally, in back-alley centers and less than sterile conditions resulting often in serious infections, loss of fertility, and sometimes death. Since this is in Tennesee and there is a provision that a woman who goes out of state to get an abortion can be charged under the same law, how do you suppose they will get that information. A doctor cannot disclose HIPAA compliant information without a proper subpoena, so who is going to notify authorities that someone who was pregnant isn't anymore? Most women will go out of state before ever seeing a doctor with a positive home test. The state she gets the abortion in will not notify Tennessee authorities that they did the procedure (violation of HIPAA).
As for Obergfell and Loving, Obergfell has already been refused disussion in the Kim Davis case, and as long as Thomas is on the bench, you won't hear a challenge to Loving. Both cases are based on the same precident as Roe.
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Joseph Knopick
Yes, it is justifiable.
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William Mark Foster
Your opinion is anathema to both Moses and Jesus. It’s obvious you serve the god of this world, NOT our Father in Heaven.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
And it’s obvious religious delusions have you by the short hairs.
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Graeme Harvey
Everybody who votes for it should be made to take the unwanted children.
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Reverend Paula Copp
Then it should be death for men to masturbate because each sperm could have created a preborn child. How ridiculous are we going to get here? Men can impregnate someone every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Women can have one baby (not mentioning multiple birth pregnancies) a year. Seems like the men should be as responsible as the women. This is just another example of men trying to control women…
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Bond Wright
Men must be held responsible for their ejaculation. There needs to be mandatory education about ejaculation for teenage boys. Ejaculation restriction must become a national urgency. Ejaculating without mandatory responsibility must carry legal penalties. Males must be held responsible for all the misery they have and will cause. Wake up people. This issue needs a giant spotlight put on it. When, and if, the day ever arrives when males take responsibility for their ejaculation, that is the day there will be no need for abortions. Males who already do take responsibility for their ejaculation, never cause unwanted pregnancies and therefore, create no need for terminations and do not add into the continued suffering of humanity.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
Good point. Now tell me about the application. Is this not all about 'control'? How do we control 'men'? How do we control women who only seek connection with a man? In the end do we not try and control everything we fear?
Could the 'root' problem merely be responsibility as you suggest? Rape and incest pregnancies are such a small % of pregnancies but they are the 'poster children' for abortion. We forget that people have passion. If people don't practice SELF control then "life happens". Perhaps our children need to be taught responsibility, good choice making and.. consequences.
Note: Interesting google searches: "Which race has the most births outside of marriage? Google- "Non-Hispanic, Black women have the highest rate of births outside of marriage in the United States, with roughly 69% to 72% (WOW!) of births occurring to unmarried mothers. This rate is significantly higher than other racial and ethnic groups, followed by American Indians (~59%) and Hispanics (~41-54%)". Also the number of births outside of marriage has increased from 10% to 40% since 1970. Which race has the most abortions? The same non-hispanic black women. Additionally, the highest % of abortions are attributed to... "financial reasons". Oh and which ethnic communities do you find the greatest % of abortion facilities??? Google- "Research indicates that a high proportion of abortion facilities are located in or near Black and Hispanic/Latino neighborhoods". Seems the math all adds up leading to an area needing the most help?
Could there be "more to the story"?
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Minister Rob
Now this is something I can get behind!! No GLOVE no love!!!!
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Rev Ned
MAGAts want the babies born. After that they’re on their own. Christofascists just want them born and couldn’t care less if they’re fed or not.
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ServantOfJudgement
If the the baby spoke perfect English, how many words do you think it would use to ask us not to kill it?
At least 3 right?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
If? If a frog had wings it wouldn’t whomp its ass every time it jumped.
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ServantOfJudgement
Ahhh, Z, frogs don't get wings but babies do speak. Please try to stay grounded and turn to the science God gave us way back in Genesis.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“If the the baby spoke perfect English….’
1- Are you implying that fetuses speak?
2- If/Would is the unreal conditional form. It’s much like “If I gave you $10M what would you do?” My not having $10M makes this an unreal situation. Note: Giving it to you if I did would not be ‘a happening situation’ so the answer is ‘No’.)
The past tense of the verb in the conditional portion of the question is the identifying characteristic of the unreal conditional.
2 - Examining the quoted segment of your response I have an unreal conditional question.
If you took the time to proofread your comments before posting them, would it make your comments seem more intelligent?
Answer - Not really. Making comments that reference the Abrahamic deity created man man smacks of the first female taking dietary advice from a talking snake, so finding mistakes in your typing won’t help at all.
3 - The fact that you used the unreal conditional might be a subliminal action on your part that says you know actually know that unborn babies don’t speak. Which means that deep inside you know that you are speaking out of your anal sphincter muscle.
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Minister Rob
LOL! "Dr." Z has to put his response to show you how smart he is. I believe it's because his ego might just get hurt very easily! Anyone can put a Dr. in front of their name! It doesn't make you any smarter!
God Bless your Soul!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yes, anyone can insert that prefix if they so wish. There are even two types. And quite a few preachers/pastors/reverends use one type, though I consider a doctorate in religion to be about as credible/impressive as having a PhD in astrology.
You can believe whatever you want. But given that your worldview centers around a belief system cobbled together by a bunch of ignorant, Bronze Age, nomadic, desert goat herders that couldn’t even explain where the sun went at night, many people are sure to snigger behind your back when you expound upon your various beliefs and opinions.
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William Mark Foster
Babies can speak whatever language it hears and learns. Fetuses cannot read as they are not yet born to be babies. Have you not read “Life begins at first breath” in your Bible ? Your argument is gibberish.
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ServantOfJudgement
Dearest William, I didn't bring up the Bible, you did. This doesn't need to be about the bible, it's about human life regardless of beliefs.
Since you brought it up though....What you air quoted doesn't exist in the document.
I have read this of John the Baptist while in his mother womb though:
Luke 1:41
"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.”
Does that sound like young John was breathing air when he knew Jesus was in the room in Mary's womb and jumped?
The Bible says consciousness exists in the womb. This is undefeatable.
Science agrees with the Bible.
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William Mark Foster
Your incessant misuse of the word “babies” and refusal of biblical teachings, demonstrates your argument is with YHWH, not me.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The bible isn’t an authority on anything. It does often make self-evident statements.
And ‘Science agrees with the bible?’ It often refutes the bible. Or at least what bible thumpers claim.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Additionally WM Foster claimed the bible states that ‘Life begins at first breath’. Specifically he’s referencing a passage in Genesis that says god breathed into his mudpie and it came to life. ‘Looks, mommy! Looks what Jehovah makes.’
It is a lot like the growth of the fetus, just grabbing molecules from the mother’s blood and adding them to its own accumulation of Lego pieces.
And when babies are born it’s the first breath the doctors look for. Gots to gets that baby a breathing!! No breath, no life.
Point is, Foster was making a point that the bible says life begins with the first breath. You either simply lacked the focus to see that or you tried to avoid that conversation because it didn’t fit in with your claim that a baby talks in womb.
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William Mark Foster
Pagans, as you identify, don’t qualify as learned individuals, nor are capable of biblical discussion.
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr Z
I definitely caught the Adam reference but it doesn't apply. Adam came from no womb. Only babies come from a womb. We're talking about babies in the womb.
I'll agree that you don't have to accept anything the Bible says. That's a fair stance. However, if we talk about what the bible claims, as Mr Foster is, I'm in a good position to correct anyone that does the same. I'm able to specify precisely where the bible discusses this very matter.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Being an ‘expert’ on the bible carries as much weight as being an ‘expert’ on the story of Spiderman. Actually I’d respect the Spiderman expert quite a bit simply because it is highly unlikely that said expert thinks Spiderman is real.
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Minister Rob
So, here's what I got off of the net;
The primary biblical reference often cited to argue that "life begins at first breath" is Genesis 2:7, which states God breathed the "breath of life" into Adam, after which he became a living creature. However, scholars debate whether this unique creation event applies to all human life or if other verses indicate life begins at conception. Key Perspectives and Scriptures:
The "First Breath" Argument (Genesis 2:7): Some interpret this verse—where Adam becomes a living being only after receiving breath—as defining the start of human life, as mentioned in a discussion on Reddit. Arguments for Conception/Pre-birth Life: Other scriptures suggest life exists before birth, such as Psalm 139:13 ("You knit me together in my mother's womb") and Jeremiah 1:5 ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you"). Furthermore, Stand to Reason notes that the Bible recognizes unborn life, such as in Luke 1:41–44, where the unborn John the Baptist reacts to Jesus. Context of "Breath": Critics of the "first breath" view argue that Genesis 2:7 describes the unique, initial creation of Adam, not the natural, ongoing process of human development.
The Bible does not provide a single, explicit verse defining the exact moment of biological life, leading to different interpretations among Christians.
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Sir Lionheart
Please get well.
🦁❤️
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Rev. BH
Could you clarify that, Ned? Sounds like they both want the same thing?
And what has either to do with legalizing the death penalty for abortion?
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Joseph Grieco
The same folks screaming for this law to be passed are the ones who are denying pre- and post-natal medical care to mothers and infants, who deny school lunch programs, who deny maternity leave, who want to remove funding from early childhood educational programs, etc. In other words, they want a permanent underclass.
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ServantOfJudgement
So kill the baby Mr Grieco? What did the baby do wrong to get the death penalty?
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Rev. BH
SOJ; what did the mother do wrong? Maybe get raped?
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ServantOfJudgement
Rev BH, I wouldn't want the spirit of a man who raped me inside my womb. I don't like to agree with that but I do.
Rape pregnancy can be terminated immediately. If not immediate then long before the quickening. Even agreeing with that breaks my heart.
Something tells me when rape become the legal excuse, rape cases will skyrocket.
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William Mark Foster
READ your Bible ! It is NOT a baby until it breathes upon birth. It is a possession of the man, NOT the woman ! You obviously are no one to use the word “judgement” in your alias as you lack learning, understanding, discernment, and wisdom. Arguing against both Mosheh and Yahshua is foolish.
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ServantOfJudgement
William Foster,
Could you identify the passage you quoted please?
I'm really interested in reading what someone rich in learning such as yourself quoted.
Servant of Judgement is the literal meaning of my name.
Your name Foster means to "Feed, nourish and raise a child". What a noble and righteous surname. Foster. I like it. What a shame now you're more than eager to cut babies from the womb.
I'll be waiting for that Bible verse you quoted. Please educate me.
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William Mark Foster
My full name means “Mighty Warrior, Large Hammer, Protector of Family”. As I am adopted by YHWH, my “family” are the 144,000 He has elected as Sons. I protect and nurture His Word from corruption.
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ServantOfJudgement
Good William, that's a pretty cool one.
You know then that John the Baptist was in the womb when he was aware Jesus was in in the room in his own mother's womb, Mary, who by the way has no physical description given.
That's life before breath. That's consciousness before birth. That's awareness in the womb.
You don't have to agree with it or even believe it but you can't say it doesn't say that. It's black and white.
As far as who's possession a baby is, my reasoning is it's the mother's and father's until the baby said to itself it's its own possession. If the Bible disagrees with me, it's probably right.
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William Mark Foster
The Bible does not say “he was aware.” The Bible does record “..when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Miriam, the babe leaped in her womb and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit..” and “..as soon as the sound of your greeting came into my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy..” The Holy Spirit, upon entering into Mariam (and the yet named babe in her womb) caused this reaction, as it did to me, like an enormous endorphin release, not from “Jesus being in the room” but by the impact one feels as the Comforter enters into you. The presence of the Comforter caused her to prophecy “in a loud voice” of her cousin’s womb bearing the Messiah. Nowhere does it say the fetus was sentient as it was yet born to take its first breath “and life entered into him.” Jesus, on the cross exclaimed, “Father, Father, why have you forsaken me ?” Jesus literally felt the Holy Spirit leave His body so he could then die (think about that) and then rise with victory over death for all of us. As to who own who or what. The Scriptures clearly records YHWH stating He owns our bodies which He created and the unborn fetus “is the property of the man.” YHWH does not call living beings “property” as He does a fetus. I know YHWH is right, while culture and traditions say contrary, that is why Jesus spoke of the way to life everlasting as “a narrow path and few there are that find it.” By the way, I started this thread by saying “lawmakers don’t read their bibles.” It’s simple to dismiss those who obviously have not read their bibles. It is very obvious ! But, you didn’t attack, but are stuck on the language of your peers, not the exacting language of scripture. Only seekers find, not those unwilling to unlearn the false traditions and customs preventing the Holy Spirit from entering them. A sign of the Holy Spirit’s presence in a person is if that person regularly gets sick, or goes for decades without any illness, as I have.
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ServantOfJudgement
William,
Leaping for joy demands intelligence and awareness of the one feeling joy.
John was filled with joy in the womb and knew he felt joy. That's awareness.
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
And what about religious freedom? There are religions that do not recognize a human being until they are born. Is Tennessee now claiming only Christianity is the only religion in the United States.
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ServantOfJudgement
Some religions don't recognize a full grown man as a human being.
Let's refer to science for these questions. What species is in the womb of a human being?
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Janice L Service
That's a thought. In the dim past I seem to remember something from anatomy class about how the fetus passes through the evolutionary species from fish on up.
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Nicholas J Page
It seems Tenneesssee is making the rules up as they go along. They have been on The Monastery on a regular basis.
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Robert Gagnon
The same people pushing this bill would do it on the sly if was an inconvenience for them. When I was a teen ager I listened to both arguments for and against abortion. One pro Lifer gets the mic and says how she had 11 abortions before realizing how wrong it is. She didn't want anyone else to make the same mistake. So the same right she had to make those decisions she wanted to take away from others. Let's not forget Sarah Palin stating she considered aborting Trig when she found out he had defects, she claimed she decided to have him after careful thought. Once again she had the option. If not for running for VP the outcome may well have been different. It's a matter of convenience for the rich and powerful to exclude themselves from rules they impose on everyone else.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
I would propose that at the root of the abortion issue is: Control. Women want to control their own bodies. Others want to control that portion that is not their body, the unborn. What if we all merely practiced SELF control? Men and women practicing self control when passiona flowed? Rapists utilizing self control. Etc, etc. But, since we all seem to have some form of self control issues how do we as a society deal with the self control issues if others? Consequences seems to be the go to for inspiring self control but if the consequences are not severe enough seems no one is willing to act differently. So where does this leave us? Trying to make laws to control people. Seems we can not force people to self control so what might you suggest to help people practice self control? Be well!
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Colleen McAllister
I do not agree with abortion but it is not murder. I also believe it should not be used as birth control or to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy. These men - anyone needs to back off and let women decide for their own selves.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Colleen,
I totally agree with you. It is a medical procedure. Where I think the "legality" needle needs to be is at the point of viability, as late-term abortions (which almost never happen, by the way) are only to be done when the mother's life is at risk, and if it is necessary beyond the point of viability, anything medically possible to save the child should be done.
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Rev. BH
Insane.
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Elizabeth Jane Erbe Wilcox
Let’s be honest. The purpose of these bills is to control women. Nothing more, nothing less. Men like this are so obsessed with women they want to control. They secretly covet the woman’s ability to be pregnant and give birth.
There is absolutely nothing about these bills that is pro-life. They are FORCED-BIRTH.
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ServantOfJudgement
Elizabeth,
I'll be honest. I don't like to think about little innocent babies getting killed. When I imagine an abortion while I'm driving my eyes well up. Sometimes I imagine a little one that's mature enough to be born recoiling from the scalpel and I might weep. I try not to think about it but sometimes it just pops in there. My mom was fairly old when she was pregnant with me and the doctors tried to get to abort me because I had a slim chance of being normal. I have little ones of my own now and a grandson. It makes me sad to look at them and imagine they'd never be alive if I were killed.
I hope that explains where I'm coming from. I hope you can see I don't want to control anyone. I wish you could see my eyes welling up right now because I'm thinking of that little one right now recoiling from the scalpel somewhere in the world. He doesn't have very much time left.
And the tears roll down. He's gone. Oh God he's gone.
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Patricia Ann Gross
SOJ,
I get it. My sister adopted my neice and nephew from women whose "better choice" in many people's minds would have been to abort. One was a teenager still in high school and in foster care. The other was a thirty-something married woman whose BC failed, and her nor her husband ever wanted children, since he was a long-haul trucker, and their lifestyle wasn't conducive to children. At least they both had a choice, as did your mom. Both children were raised in a loving family when the "fertility gods" were against my sister getting pregnant. She also had other health issues that would have been severly complicated by pregnancy, so this was the best solution for all parties involved.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
So the birth-giver was down on this plan? So it was HER choice. Sounds cool.
But it doesn’t justify making such a law.
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Patricia Ann Gross
Dr. Z,
Agreed, A woman's body is hers and the choice is to come from her, the doctors and anyone else they [alone] want to bring into the decision process (baby's father, other family members, spiritual guide, etc.). I have counseled many women who face an unwanted pregnancy, and we only discuss her options, but the ulitimate decision I leave to her. I am not the one that has to live with consequences of any decision she makes. It is [especially] not up to me to provide for a child I cannot afford. Some chose abortion, some chose adoption and some chose to keep the baby. The totals were probably close to an even split, but each of them could live with their decisions, and that's what's important.
My remark was understanding SOJ's perspective based on his own history. It doesn' mean I agree with him on the entire issue. Personally, I have never been in the position where I had to make a choice, except when I was needing a D and C after a miscarriage that wouldn't spontaneously abort (a procedure denied in some places now, which can result in serious complications and damage to a woman's reproductive abilities and sometimes her life due to an infection.) This was a case where there was no doubt about the "death" of the fetus from the results of the sonogram and absence of a heartbeat at 12 weeks.
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Tom Thackrey
Thou shall not kill. Isn't this compounding the loss of one life, the fetus, with another?
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Patricia Ann Gross
Absolutely, anyone who is applauding this bill cannot call themself "pro-life."
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ServantOfJudgement
It's actually Thou shall not commit murder. There's a pretty big difference between killing and murder.
Most states will prosecute a person if they murdered a woman and her unborn baby of two murders.
That's why things aren't easy. Law likes consistently. Either a baby is a human or it isn't. There can not be a variable in that equation.
The death penalty should be reserved for the protection of citizens. Never a punishment. An action taken to guarantee the criminal is never given the opportunity to put the general public in danger.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
So are you for or against this stupidity?
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr Z
Absolutely no death penalty. Law must be applied equally to all people. If I can get charged for homicide by killing a baby in the womb then everyone can, even the mother. If the mother can't be then nobody should be. Pick one.
My personal stance is if a baby can be born, it should be born. No abortion after the quickening.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Point taken. But a woman’s body belongs to her alone. But how often have people been found guilty of taking the life of an unborn child? This is just a wild guess, but I would guess those charges are like many charges that police file. They just think of everything they can charge you with and hope something sticks. And having all of those charges allows DA to plea bargain.
Regardless, this proposed law is stupid.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
Yes a woman's body belongs to her alone. 1 heart beat = 1 human. The complication comes when you add an additional heart beat. Does the heart beat of the one human have greater value than the heart beat of another? This seems to continue to play out even after birth as man 'judges' others less than and therefore worthy of death. All murder, it seems, is this judgement of another's value playing out time and time again. If this is true, then when exactly were we given this right to determine which lives have value and which do not? Perhaps the great struggle is: Who is God? Us? We do seem to create gods in OUR own image. Be well!
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Patricia Ann Gross
There is a big difference, but both result in someone being killed. Do you suppose there is an exception for self-defence if the pregnancy could kill the mother (ectopic, for example)? From what I understand. I read in a news release about this that they could still prosecute under this statute if the mother got an abortion in a state where it was legal.
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ServantOfJudgement
When the mothers health is at risk there should not even be a discussion. Her life takes priority.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
"Her life takes priority". Not arguing this but what determines this "truth"? How does one determine which life has the greater value? Honest questions...
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
So does her decision.
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Richard Nolan Norman
I believe that many people calling themselves pro life have no problem with invoking the death penalty when it suits their particular brand of crime. Hypocrisy runs rampant in the Evangelical movement.
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John P Maher
IF ANY WOMAN HAS ANY TYPE of EXCUSE, WHATEVER, I T IS HER CHOICE, HER BODY,NOT EVEN ANY GODs !
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ServantOfJudgement
My babies were mine and my wife's when they were conceived. After they we're born they were still mine and my wife's. At one point we when to hear the heartbeat. The heartbeat I heard was not my wife's heartbeat or my heartbeat. It was my child's heartbeat.
That's a hard pill to swallow for some. Conjoined twins very rarely will have two hearts. Never any other time does any human ever have two hearts.
When in doubt we should turn to the science God gave us back in Genesis for answers. Science works even if you don't believe in God, you don't have to be a Christian to use science.
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Kathy Jean Potter
There is no black and white in life. None. Nothing is all bad. Nothing is all good. No two situations are ever exactly the same. The gray areas are the places where an individual’s heart communes with their God, where a husband and wife make personal decisions together, where, if you have never been in a position so life-threatening as to have abortion be a women/mother/sister/daughter ‘s only choices are their own lives or deaths, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE FOR THEM. You are not God. You do not get to judge or know peoples’ hearts. Since draconian abortion laws have been enacted, the infant death rate has risen, higher than some third world countries. The maternal death rate has risen similarly. Ectopic pregnancies happen. Miscarriages happen. Both can and have killed women, taking moms from children, wives from husbands, sisters and daughters and friends. This is “Pro-Life”?? It’s hypocrisy. Women need medical care and the freedom to choose their options. And as usual, women are punished by being controlled by laws that do not control men. What of the father who impregnates his nine year old daughter, who will die if forced to carry a baby to term? The daughter AND the baby will be dead and the incestuous father goes on with his life of freedom and possibly more child sex crimes?? What of the rapist? The domestic abuser? The deadbeat dads? None of this is pro-life and absolutely none of this is anyone’s right of decision making other than the pregnant person. Men, especially, are all PRO-LIFE on the surface, and pro-death underneath. Pro-lifers seem to disproportionately support the death and hate mention of gun control. They cite things in the Bible that are not there. Perhaps those judgy arrogant people should put there energy and support behind ways to give pregnant people the medical care and access to nutritious food, and to be pro-life once the baby is here. Pro-life is all or it is none. Pro-life is for women and men and children at every stage or it is not pro life. Grow up. Work on yourselves. Give your assistance to those who need it. Convict rapists. Convict pedophiles and child-molesters. Enforce child support laws. Work toward medical care being available for women and families. Hypocrites.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
Hello. Very good points and I appreciate your passion. I would first ask; If there is no black nor white how does one determine 'truth'? It seems if truth is 'adjustable' then it is not reliable therefor not true. Could...Should things start with black or white and yet might there be room to hear one's heart and make exceptions case by case? Could this concept be actually biblical? Seems having a starting point, a foundation of Truth, could relieve a lot of confusion? Maybe this is a good place to begin a "conversation"? What are your thoughts on 'Truth'?
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Patricia Ann Gross
Jeffery,
There is an old adage: The only absolute truth(s) in this world is (are) death and taxes. I have to say I absolutely agree.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
Let's take this concept a step further, IE: No ultimate truths. If truth is determined by... us, individually, then are you not 'canceling out' the 'truth' others believe about abortion. If you get to determine your truth and that truth is 'gospel' for the world, then why can't the pro-lifers have their version of truth? Without foundational truth we run into situations such as this. If there are no foundation truths then... we're both right and neither one should then be able to bad mouth another's 'truth'. No wonder this seems so messy. PS. Have you googled the % of abortions used to save a mothers life?It's only 0.3% to 3% based on different studies. The vast majority of abortions are for NON-medical reasons, with about 95% classified as elective. I found that interesting. Peace!
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Patricia Ann Gross
Jeffery,
Have you ever recounted a story about something you saw with your own eyes, yet someone saw it differently? This happens often within families, when one sibling remembers how something happened and another insists it happened differently. Everyone sees things through their own lens, so the question is, if we don't hold what is our "truth," who does?
Truth does not equal morality, and the question of "truth," we are discussing is when life begins, which is a moral question. Conception, heartbeat, viability, birth, first breath, age 12, 18 or 21? Different people (even the doctors) believe different "truths" about when life begins. For the abortion debate, the "truth" narrows to conception, heartbeat, viability, birth, or first breath. Age 12,18 or 21, indicates when those "lifes" are given the right to make decisions for themselves and live independently, (i.e., be responsible for their own life) and depending on what you talk about, the age is different. Because this topic is so divisive and has been for 50 years since the Roe v. Wade decision, it is doubtful there is a single decision that will make people of all the different itterations happy. Truthfully, I do not agree with any law that causes a woman to lose all of her rights, especially to body autonomy, simply because she is pregnant. I do get quite squeamish if it is beyond the point of viability, as at that point the "fetus" can survive outside the woman's body, so that is where I might draw a line, unless the mother's life is in danger (which is, most likely, 100 percent of all legal late-term abortions, due to the laws). Women who have miscarriages (and I speak from experience with this), have no rights to take bereavement leave, are not given a body to bury (unless it is a "stillbirth"), and are not treated as though they lost a child, but when a child was planned and wanted, there are real grief emotions by the mother, father, and siblings after a miscarriage. It is a great hypocracy to insist that a "fetus" is a life, but when the "fetus" dies through natural causes it is not a child, but it is when it is voluntarily aborted.
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Jeffery D. Sanders
"Servant of judgement". Interesting. Can you share how you came about choosing this "call sign"? Thanks.
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ServantOfJudgement
Yes Jeffrey, this is the meaning of my surname. I've been interested in the meaning of our(us people)names since my youth. For some reason it thrills me to learn this of myself and people around me.
Jeffery means God's Peace. That's a very cool one.
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Religious overreach and completely degrading women to just worthless human beings. We are not property we are human beings as well. This law basically allows a man to do anything to a woman and she can’t say a word or defend herself.