Is it possible to take "spirit week" a tad too literally?
A teacher in Mesa, Arizona is catching heat for his Satan costume during Mesa High School’s spirit week late last month.
The controversial costume – and the teacher's behavior in it – reportedly offended a number of Christian students, who say he crossed the line. The teacher is now on leave and under investigation by the school following the student complaints.
Now, there’s only one question: does Satan belong in the classroom?
Demonology 101
Donning plastic devil horns, a red shirt, and brandishing a pitchfork, the teacher allegedly said "hail Satan" to students as they entered his classroom.
According to local sophomore Nathaniel Hamlet, the teacher’s conduct received a mixed reaction in class.
"Some people thought it was funny, some people didn't like it, some people were like 'whatever,' they just blew it off," he explained.
Hamlet very much counts himself amongst those who didn’t like it.
As a Christian, Hamlet found the costume offensive, and he says that the instructor wouldn’t stop brandishing the pitchfork at him, despite his repeated insistence that the teacher stop. "I said, 'Don't do that to me' and I pushed [the pitchfork] away, maybe three or four times and he still said it and still did it.”
Hamlet's father argues that this is simply a fair application of rules that restrict religious symbols and expression in the classroom. “If you're gonna keep the Christian stuff out, then you got to keep the devil-worshiping stuff out, period,” he said.
Feeling the Heat
Speaking with a local news outlet, the teacher gave his side of the story.
"Participating in spirit weeks like this is a way for me to engage with my students and bring fun to my classroom," he explained. "It's truly not any more complicated than that."
The theme of that day’s spirit week was dynamic duos, he says, and the teacher in the next room over was dressed as an angel. Now on administrative leave and potentially at risk of being let go, the decision may come back to haunt the educator.
Devilish Details
While the Hamlet family seems insistent that the teacher should face consequences, not everyone sees it that way. Plenty of local parents say that the teacher stepped over a line, but they don’t want to see him fired.
Other critics sought to call out irony in Christians complaining about religious views being represented in schools, given recent examples of Christian beliefs pushing into the classroom.
For now, however, it’s unclear if school leadership will reincarnate the teacher’s career, or send it straight to hell.
What do you think of the teacher's behavior, and the reaction to it?
Is this – pardon the pun – a fireable offense?
163 comments
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Karen M Butler
First and foremost, when a child says "No" no means no. It was disrespectful to the child as a person. He acted as if the child had no rights, that the child's preferences didn't matter. Was it a fireable offense? Probably not. I do find the behavior inappropriate not necessarily the costume. The teacher could've used the costume to open up a conversation on a number of subjects. If the school policy is no religion in the classroom, then he should not have used this costume. The devil or Satan is a part of religions.
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Stephen Kondziolka
Should it make a difference if a person wears any fictional character on Halloween? The devil a witch, Superman or Batman? Was the teacher that wore the Angel costume suspended for wearing an outfit that is obviously based on religious beliefs?
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Wilberta M. Berry
Since the Bible teaches about the fallen angels which according to that book is what Satan is. I think it should never have been made into an issue.
The children got to see the angels who weren't fallen and an angel that was. Ignorance is a far greater threat to children than a teacher showing a different perspective of an angel.😄
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Rev Mark D
You all think this is a big deal, what if he dressed as Mohammad?
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Geoffrey C. Olive
What a mountain out of a molehill! The religious nuts complaining about teachers dressing up for a fun occasion are expecting the education system in schools to train their students to become morons! For those who have such nonsensical religious beliefs, this makes them look even more stupid than they already are! Wearing a Roman execution device - a crucifix - seems like a very similar expression to wearing fake horns and holding a pitchfork on Halloween, and what about dressing up as Santa Claus at xmas! Oh the hypocrisy!
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Rev Mark D
Yes Geoffrey, you know that's a good observation, I always feel uncomfortable every time on the tube I see some Hollywood type or some political type or some criminal type or some hypocrite religious type wearing a cross, or some moron teenager or 20 something or 30 something it doesn't even know what it means, because they're behaving opposite to any sense of knowing what it means. And virtually nobody understands the hypocrisy of wearing a cross as a piece of jewelry, adornment, sometimes a clearly expensive one intended to convey and display wealth (like for instance something Jesus's money changers would wear), while violating everything that cross was intended to represent... Much less appreciate the irony that it was actually a tool of crucifixion.
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His Holiness Doctor C.
The moral being, never get into a debate with a God-botherer. No sense of humour, no sense of irony and nauseatingly self-righteous. Thus endeth the lesson.
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Rev Mark D
Especially the godbotherers who don't bother with God.
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Rev Ned
If a teacher can be fired for showing students a picture of Michelangelo’s David sculpture, this does not surprise me. Heinlein wrote “ Stupid people shouldn’t breed.” Unfortunately for humanity, they do at a higher rate than intelligent people.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The fact that they breed is a large part of the existence of religion.
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Rev Mark D
If only among all the things the vengeful angry God had said, he had also said "The stupid shall not enter heaven,"... Then people would strive to be not stupid. Couldn't God have at least taken a moment to say something like that?
The sentence was once reported to have been said by God in the book Heavenly Discourse, but on reflection I think that author might just have been satirizing.
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JaZe
Amazing that no one dressed up as God.
bahumbug and whatever
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Maybe someone did but no one was able to find him/her.
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Patti Anne Lisenbee
Yet another teacher was dressed as an ANGEL - has she been put on leave and being investigated? No? What hypocrisy!
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Arneteria Benford
Let that man have fun and give him his job back.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
Going by the little info given in this article I fail to see where "religion" is an issue at all and if Hamlet is to be believed then the teacher's actions are out of line. When I was in public schools the teachers would slap our hands with a ruler. From Hamlet's comments the teacher was doing similar with the pitch fork. That's inappropriate behavior having nothing to do with religion. As to the religion in public schools I am a veteran and minister and pointed out before. The first amendment states "Congress shall make not law" in this matters. The teacher's dress up is a personal issue and school administration has no authority on the subject unless it violates an existing dress code, then the teacher dressed as and angel must be addressed also. Public Schools and government business close for Christmas and Easter which are religious holidays, the same people whining about some guy in devil costume lies to children Satan Clause (dead Catholic cardinal) still alive, and a rabbit (fertility god) lays colored eggs.
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
I just looked up the original coverage and got more information on this subject; this stands out,
"The sophomore then told his dad Chris Hamlet, a former Mesa Public School board candidate, about the situation. Chris said he then reported it to the Mesa High School principal."
More digging you'll find it's all political over lost elections to public office. Nothing about "religion".
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Rev Mark D
Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the school board candidate who lost. Wah wah wah!
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Amber Fry
If it wasn't about religion then why would anyone bother being upset by it and reporting it? Is the devil not the personification of people being tempted away from religion in the first place?
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Maybe it was the only thing Hamlet could find to complain about.
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Rev Mark D
Dixon, excellent points!
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Richard W Shannon
Satan is a human invention. The red guy with horns representation is not more than a couple of hundred years old and based on Pan and Dionysis. These so-called "Christians" haven't studied history or religions or Mythology and are so misinformed as to be laughable.
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Edward Thomas Kavanagh
I didn’t see in the story here that the Angel teacher was under investigation. But if you are a Christian then you have to believe in the devil. And I believe that the devil should be talked about. Why not? He is supposedly all evil. So children should be taught how not to be evil. By teachers and my parents. I repeat and by parents. However I do believe that schools need to get back to basics. Math, reading, science etc.
On a personal note I went to a catholic school for 12 years. We dressed up as the devil on occasion for Halloween. No nuns or teachers ever complained. No parents ever complained. I think it’s time that we all grow up and stop being babies over trivial stuff. Yes. This Devil costume is trivial
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Rodolfo Francisco Rodriguez
Porque? porque tenemos que introducir costumbres y paganismo satánico en las escuelas, todos sabemos de la maldad que conlleva eso y a subienda que a Dios no le agrada. Hemos sacado la biblia y a Dios de las escuelas de las instituciones, de las universidades y en millones de hogares y así estamos hoy con alumnos desquiciados con un arma matando a 20 compañeros hogares destruidos droga maldad y así mismo no nos damos cuenta que nos falta traer a Dios la educación .Juramos por los santos evangelios ser presidente o juez pero en las escuelas esta prohibido. No educamos como a Dios le agrada, la biblia es clara mire Proverbios 22:6 Instruye al niño en su camino, Y aun cuando fuere viejo no se apartará de él. Es por esto que el mundo esta torcido, es tiempo de empezar a hacer lo correcto o nos aniquilaremos a nosotros mismos. Traer a Dios a las escuelas seria traer buenas costumbres, esperanza con valores y forjados para el servicio. Así como se forjo esta gran nacìon con sus valores y principios. he dicho: Si no le agrada puede eliminar, pero No podrá decir mañana que alguien no se los advirtió.
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Valerie Sapienza
If you don't want your child exposed to any "non-Christian" scenarios send them to private school or homeschool them. As to firing the teacher....no, I think that is kind of extreme. He should be held accountable for continuing to joke around when asked not to. No is No....he should have respected that. That was his only mistake. I don't believe wearing a satan costume and saying "hail satan" is teaching satanism. I believe that was just done to stay in character. Besides....I was taught that the "devil" was a fallen angel....not a red guy with horns and a tail carrying a pitch fork.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
It seems that xtians have conveniently forgotten that their god also created Satan along with the nonsensical belief that it also created the universe!
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Steven Ferrell
This teacher should face disciplinary action. If one dressed as Jesus and stood saying Praise God, there would be such an uproar and most likely the teacher lose their job. Same should apply here.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Like the one dressed an an angel?
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John R Liming
Leviticus 18:22 Amplified Bible 22 You shall not lie [intimately] with a male as one lies with a female; it is repulsive.
In other versions of the Bible the word, "Repulsive" is replaced with "An Abomination" (In the eyes of God.)
If Pastors are pushing LGBTQ, then they should be defrocked.
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Brien
Your fiction, your belief. By what right do you tell me what to believe or who to accept. You have added even more evidence of hate based belief.
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Larry G McKinney
So many pearls to clutch, so little time...
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John R Liming
It is rightly offensive to Christian students for the teacher to dress as a devil and use the term, "Hail Satan" but it comes down to school policies as to whether this is a fireable offense or not. If there is a concern, then the school administration should write a policy about the matter and enforce it. If I were a parent, I might consider such an action as this teacher took in this case to be an attempt to indoctrinate my kids and that might turn out to be a case for litigation in a court of law.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Equally, it is rightly offensive to non-Christian students for the orther teacher to dress as an angel...
If I were a parent, I might consider such an action as that other teacher took to be an attempt to indoctrinate my children and that might turn out to be a case for litigation in a court of law.
Sauce for the goose...
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Rev Mark D
Holy Jesus why do we put so much energy into going out of our way to be stupid?
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Daniel Gray
ask yourself that question since you seem to be doing it on a daily basis
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Rev Mark D
Well thank you Daniel, that was clever and helpful.
Here's one for YOU to think about:
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
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Daniel Gray
And here is one for YOU to think about since this fits you pretty well.
"I should keep my mouth shut and let people think I am a fool and an idiot, then to constantly open it and let the words show that I am."
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Michael Hunt
Projecting again I see, Daniel...
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Daniel Gray
And how can it be projecting when what I said in reply was the truth about you?
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Michael Hunt
"When someone unconsciously attributes their thoughts, feelings, or behaviors to another person, they are projecting." https://www.verywellhealth.com/projecting-7481323
Hope that helps you!
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Daniel Gray
No but it should help Dr Z
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Michael Hunt
What does Dr. Z have to do with this?
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Daniel Gray
I see you have not read his posts that make no sense to anyone but him
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
His posts make a lot more sense than yours.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
And I get free rent in his head. Not a very spacious location, nothing at all interesting. But free.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but no, I only respond to you when your stupidity is more then I can stand
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Daniel Gray
Only to low intelligent people. So where does that leave you.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Should be ‘only to people with low intelligence.’
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Rev Mark D
Hey daniel, I could do this all day: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged." Matthew 7:1
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Daniel Gray
Then why are you hear as you seem to do this with every post.
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Rev Mark D
Daniel, Jesus is listening to our conversation, noticing that every time I quote his words to you, instead of taking it to heart and saying yes, you deflect like a politician on to something else and therefore avoid and evade. Do you think He does not know, do you think he is unaware of you and your little evasions and argument tricks? Fooling Jesus, are you? Keep picking at me and when I give you words that he spoke relevant to you and your behavior, he intended it for you too remember. Don't think your little tricks fool Him, because if you do, then you have just put yourself on display for all including your Lord. Didn't Jesus also say, how will you criticize the sliver and his eye until you acknowledge the beam in your own? And every time you poke at me, but avoiding his words on point that I read to you, it's actually Him you are snubbing. Careful.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Jesus was a fictional character.
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Rev Mark D
Z: Shhhh... Don't tell that to the Christians, The fragile enough as it is.
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Daniel Gray
And you are a fictional character in a sane persons mind.
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Rev Mark D
"Jesus was affectionate character."
Z: Shhhh... Don't tell that to the Christians, They're fragile enough as it is.
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Daniel Gray
Not hardly, It You who I am proving wrong.
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Michael Hunt
here*
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Daniel Gray
Ahhh since you cant refute what I say you resort to grade school tactics. Good to know
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Rev Mark D
It's not spirit week, it's f***ed in the head week. How stupid can so-called Christians get?
Somebody please get them a copy of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure to watch, stat. And of course, as one of the themes (aside from the main one, which is "make learning fun," which includes when teaching teenagers being a little bit lame because that works too) of the movie states, "Be excellent to each other."
Dumba**es. Authoritarian concrete-thinking rockheads.
And to think I once almost took a teaching job in Mesa.
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Daniel Gray
Awwww, whats wrong? mad because they are going by your misinterpretation of the fake separation of church and state.
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Michael Hunt
What does that even have to do with his comment? Are you okay? You seem to be having a hard time keeping up with the threads here.
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Daniel Gray
Mad because its you that cant seem to keep up with the conversation and projecting again I see.
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Michael Hunt
What does Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure have to do with the separation of church and state?
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Daniel Gray
How about you tell us since YOU are the one that brought it up.
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Michael Hunt
Rev Mark D was the one who brought it up: "Somebody please get them a copy of Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure to watch, stat. And of course, as one of the themes (aside from the main one, which is "make learning fun," which includes when teaching teenagers being a little bit lame because that works too) of the movie states, "Be excellent to each other."
I think that explains why Bill and Ted was brought up. I'm still confused as to what this has to do with separation of church and state...
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Rev Mark D
The relevance was instead of being Excellent, people are using church and state as weapons against each other. That's not being excellent. That's being third graders who need a spanking.
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Daniel Gray
It has been released that the teacher, Jesse Ruiz (the one who dressed like a devil) is under investigation for possible assault in doing this. Seems that he had more then one student that told him to stop and he refused to do so. Sadly for him that violates Arizona's Assault law which is a class 1 misdemeanor. If he would have stopped after he was told to, then a simple warning not to do this again would have sufficed along with a letter of reprimand in his personnel file. Since he didnt he is now on Administrative leave and the school board will decide what to do with him which depending on how many students complained, could lead up to him not having his contract renewed or terminated effective immediately after the investigation is over. The person in the next room that dressed as an Angel is also under investigation and depending on if they stopped when told to, could very well face the exact same punishment if they didnt.
At least the Mesa High School is being straight down the middle on this which is highly surprising as most of the time you read about issues like this, they school tries to cover for the Teacher.
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Michael Hunt
I've tried finding information about the investigation into the Angel but I can't find anything. Do you have a link? I'm really interested in reading more.
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Daniel Gray
Seems the mods dont like it when I give the name and the address of the school and the phone number, sorry.
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Michael Hunt
Knowing the name and number of the school doesn't tell me if a teacher is under investigation or not. Is there not a news article or press release or some sort of announcement that the other teacher is under investigation? I would be surprised if the school themselves would provide just anyone with details of an ongoing investigation.
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Daniel Gray
It would if you had the info I posted so you could check for yourself
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Michael Hunt
Are you suggesting I call the school and ask them if the teacher is under investigation?
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
As ULC minister, with the only provable God, I take offense by those who deny the existence of all Gods, including Gods which are capable of being proved; and I expect (anticipate) the help of my fellow ULC ministers in this regard. Because God (at least, the God of the Secular Humanist Pantheists) is nature, which makes nature the same as God, so it’s easy to conclude that because God, nature, and matter — always were, and ergo, always will be, that there’s enough room in the cosmos for some supernatural stuff, which is the glue, that holds superstitions medieval religious mythologies together, so that one of our political parties can be reasonably certain, to count on the ignorance is bliss voter to support a populist demagogue, who also happens to be the greatest iconoclast of perhaps all time.
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Brien
Ok, I'm going to hate myself for this, after trying to comb thru your off topic rant, prove that nature is a deity. Prove the existence of an intellectual spirit in nature that wishes your devotion, worship, and recognition as the " supreme being". Your personal belief is yours, it is no less fictional than any other. You keep yours, I will keep mine, and neither belong in class. However, I would not fire you for a stupid halloween costume, it would be your conduct as a teacher that would warrant discussion. Peace ✌️
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William Waugh
My dear fellow ministers. We talk openly and plainly about different religious views. That opportunity is priceless. MOST countries (and mad red hat 'ers) would execute you on the spot. What we feel as a gentle wind change is experienced by religious enthusiasts as being caught by a major storm. ....and their teeth and nails are real!
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Nicholas J Page
We have had this issue before Satanism does not represent any spiritual world.Or if he does where's the proof or actual pictures.
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Theresa C. Marquess
Good response, Donald! I totally agree with you. The 'woke' business has got to stop. The school allowed a 'spirit week' and that is what they got. Halloween has always been a fun time for kids and grownups as well. Costumes are not meant to be anything but a fun way for people to be something other than what they perceived themselves to be.
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Donald J Rothschild Jr
As usual only Christian teachings are only allowed in public schools. Anything else is deemed offensive or satanic. Christians must get over themselves. They are not the only religion out there and, contrary to their thinking, this country was NOT built on Christian beliefs. It was built on freedom of and freedom from religion.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Has the teacher who dressed as an angel also been suspended or "on leave" and under investigation? As Hamlet's father argued, it would be "a fair application of rules that restrict religious symbols and expression in the classroom". Or does that only apply to non-Christian religions?
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Daniel Gray
yes he is
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Rev Mark D
Speaking of that, Satan was an angel. In fact it was an Archangel, one of God's highest and most loved. Pressing a Satan is dressing as an angel.
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Alice Faye Martin
People are just to faced. You want God and I agree he should be. Yet you get mad when someone dresses like the devil and you want to vilify him. How predictable 🙄. To me its just to many people making all the wrong decisions. 😕.
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Alun Lloyd Palmer
The image of Satan as having horns arguably arose as an attempt by the Christian church to dissuade former or actual pagans from worshipping Herne, although that doesn't explain the colour red, which is not associated with Herne..
It is clear the teacher didn't wear a Satan costume as something he intended seriously, but a certain segment of Christians are easily offended.
I am an atheist ULC minister. My wife is pagan.
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William Waugh
Buddhism (I think) comes closest to reality. The universe itself is god. When you have read up on, holographics, fractals, subatomic physics and other such stuff you come to believe the world religions are fairy tales written not long after learning to write. ....not an atheist, just dont pal around with folks that think a ball cap is a cool group symbol. An example of the mental capacities of humans around the time of the creation of the various religous texts. I know you'll find examples to prove me wrong but my examples are bigger and better. .........remember that?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Current Buddhism has many sects and those sects generally include gods or things close to gods. But from what I have read of the original teachings the Buddha said contemplating certain things, such as ‘if the soul exists, doesn’t exist or both exists and doesn’t exist’, along with the same idea about the universe, life after death, etc, all those things are a total waste of time. So original Buddhism was at least agnostic if not actually atheistic.
So as far as Buddhism goes, rather than the universe being god, the universe just is. And although I’m an atheist every scientific (non faith based) explanation agrees with that point.
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Rev Mark D
And even Buddhists have been genocidal, it is in the history, because of the different schisms by having numerous sex where always there is the opportunity to lead to division and conflict and then righteous destruction.
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Angelic Realms
The teacher is a m0r0ns like all of them these days. Debauchery. Laziness. Perversions. Along with grades being "racist". Such garbage. Bust the teachers union and put in people that are deviants and weirdos.
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Richard W Shannon
"Judge Ye not lest Ye be judged." "Judgement is MINE sayeth the Lord. "
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Michael Sciulli
This wrong what teacher done in classroom it is pure evil must trust lord god he has plan pray for this person keep faith and said agin read bible and book Revelation god bless
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Danny D. Maynard
The Book of Revelation is a fantastic SciFi book. The last two chapters describe the spaceship in which Jesus is supposed to return. It is eerily like the Borg Cubes!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You have brown eyes, don’t you?
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John Komorowski
Lmao.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Ahh, someone got it!
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Rev Mark D
Oh yes.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
What he did was no worse than the teacher who dressed as an angel. I notice you don't condemn that teacher's action. as "pure evil".
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Tareq Asfour
When are schools going to shut out all the culture and start teaching properly math, English, sciences etc, I don’t know what American kids are learning anymore in school but sorry to say they are coming out dumb because of the same garbage being taught, which is culture leave the staff at home and start teaching our kids properly
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Danny D. Maynard
Blame your state education department or the local school districts for the topics that must be taught in your schools!
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ServantOfJudgement
Non academic issues have become our priority in schools now Tareq. Not all schools do this though. The school my children attend puts the basics of education as their priority. The kids come out knowing what they should know. Also, our public school is filled with kids who believe in Jesus, it shows on their grade cards for sure.
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Rev Mark D
Yes derek, absolutely right.. it simply is impossible to teach all 356 separate cultures value systems respect honor sensitivity reactivity all that indoctrination and all that us/ them which goes with everyone, setting up oppositionality and adversity at the same time one is teaching understanding and acceptance and then of course there are the ones that are left out that now have a reason to b**** and whine and moan and complain and Sue and create all manner of uproar and discord and destroy the whole society for what, for power for noise for attention for something to do. The focus needs to be on schooling of skills, basic knowledge, learning, and how to learn, and enough socialization so that we learn what we need to about going along to get along because without that society does not survive, look around the world, look here too, for many many examples of how we fail to do that and how people die and suffer and the world suffers. Because you can't just teach one culture when there's 250 cultures and at the edges and borders there is going to be opposition. There just isn't enough time and opportunity so one must pick and choose... So becoming a competent individual is more than enough, more than enough.
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Bridget Kielas-Fecyk
This is NOT a "Fireable offense" it was simply a halloween costume. People need to stop getting their knickers in a twist. Freedom of religion means ALL religions, not just one religion.
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Daniel Gray
This WAS a fireable action. If he would have just wore the costume and said nothing, then I would agree that it was a halloween stunt. BUT in saying that when he started in with the "Hail Satan" garbage, then he overstepped the line
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Rev. Miche'al Yosef Dixon
Obviously you Never heard the term "Sarcasm".
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Daniel Gray
I have and I would recognize it IF I saw it. But sadly for you, you didnt use it.
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Paul Johnson
Where do you find the reference for what you just posted? It will be to late when you have to make a dicision based on no knowledge. Can we use the book of Job as a possible reference if so. Then we all need to get ready when we stand before the all knowing, all caring, and all loving God with egg on our face and realize that we really can't even start to have a right to ask, are act any differet than what Job did when found himself in God's presence. Are do we think that we are smarter than God? Just a thought.
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Brien
Yes, but your thoughts are based on a fictional belief that itself is supportive of fear and hate. If the teacher did as was stated, then a reprimand is in order, not for wearing a costume but for actions and language inappropriate for a classroom. Religious posturing simply does not belong in public school, so any reference from ANY religion to cast judgement also does not belong. When you remove the organized hate you will see that most problems have simple and clear solutions. Until then, I guess the insanity will continue.
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Rev. Carol M Anaski-Figurski
Yes Satan belongs in the classroom. Satan only exists because of Christianity. Satan is in the bible. You show know the ways of the evil & how to handle an encounter.
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Daniel Gray
Ok then using your logic, Christianity and Islam and Judaism and all other religions should be allowed in the classroom.....right?
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Rev Mark D
As history yes of course. But not as something to proselytize.
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Daniel Gray
Says who? Even the 1st Amendment does not stop this.
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Michael Hunt
Go ahead and try proselytizing to a public school class then, Daniel. You'll get your behind kicked out of there faster than you can say "Jesus Christ!" Public school is for education, not religious indoctrination.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but no. There is no separation of church and state in the 1st Amendment and nowhere in article 3 does it give the SCOTUS to authority or right to do this as that would take a constitutional amendment to allow this since they cant just claim they can.
Oh and sorry about your bad luck but you CAN use school property for religious meetings and prayer. It just cannot be allowed if the teacher or a school official leads it. Or did you seemingly ignore the Football coach Joe Kennedy, who got job back after Supreme Court ruled he could pray on the field https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/years-fighting-praying-football-coach-got-job-back-now-s-unsure-wants-rcna103036
Or this one? In June 2022, the U.S. Supreme Court held in Carson v. Makin that Maine violated the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment by excluding religious schools from a private-school-choice program—colloquially known as “town tuitioning”—for students in school districts without public high schools.
Or this one which comes directly from the ACLU? "it is constitutional for public schools to teach children about religion" or this one from the same people "“Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to prohibit individual or group prayer in public schools or other public institutions"
Or this one where even the US Supreme Court ruled that you can have bibles in a public school in their Abington School District vs Schempp, a 1963 decision.
So since the law and the Constitution does allow you to mention Jesus Christ in a school and they cant do anything about it, you just cant come in an act like a preacher or minister or priest.
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Michael Hunt
Okay I wasn't contesting any of the points you brought up. I said you can't proselytize to a public school class, which even you agree someone can't do: "you just cant come in an act like a preacher or minister or priest."
I never said you can't teach religion, I never said religious schools should be banned from the private school choice program, I never said schools can't be used for religious meetings or prayer. I said you can't preach to your public school students in their class.
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Rev Mark D
I think you got everybody there, Daniel.
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Colleen McAllister
Another big deal out of nothing. Satan does not look like that anyway. The teacher did overstep when he wouldn't stop poking at the one student though.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Exactly what does Satan look like? Can you give a link to a recent pic so I will know when my soul is in danger?
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
I agree. Taunting the student like that was wrong but I wonder how much of it the student brought on himself to get attention and give himself something to complain about.
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Ellen B. Wentzel
There is just too much judgment on this site. Come on! Stupid subjects not worth reading about.
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Colleen McAllister
Then don't read those things.
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Rev Mark D
I agree. I only read what I like. If I don't like it, I don't read it. (Ummm, wait a second...)
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Good one. What to do? Magic 8 Ball? That has demons innit. Hey! Pray about every article before reading it. Wait for a really clear answer.
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Danny D. Maynard
You chose what to read or not! How dare you!
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Alexander Arends
Agreed
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Brien
First off, we are not talking about separate beliefs. Satan is a part of the Christian belief. So if the Christian students are offended then they are offended by their own belief. Second, the teacher should have recognised and de-escalated the situation. Simple things can get so blown out of proportion. And yes, religion does not belong in public school. Another thing the teachers should have thought about. Reprimand yes, fire no.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The teacher clearly underestimated how cowed by superstition and religious indoctrination some of his students were. It seems they actually believed the guy in the red shirt and plastic horns endangered their souls.
It could cost him his job. This is what sane people have to deal with.
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Rev Mark D
Kenneth you got that right. I had 5-year-olds wearing devil outfits for trick or treat the other night. Do you think I called the police on their parents?
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Daniel Gray
No thats what INsane people have to deal with. If they know their actions could lead to problems or termination and they still do it, then they only have themselves to blame.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Oh, somebody’s widdle fweelings are hurt,
Having taught chem, physics and biology for a few years there were many topics that would result in the religious students feeling the need to counter science with hokum. I didn’t pull punches. Unlike on this forum where my view of religious individuals as willfully ignorant and religiously delusional are freely expressed as a teacher my responses dealt with the facts and theories that gave them the urge to challenge science. These kids were just parroting what their sheepish, cognitively challenged parents and relatives taught them. And their views hadn’t quite hardened yet. All they had was a rudimentary ability to use God Putty and a few little choice thrusts. And there was more than a single occasion where as the students left the classroom tears were flowing. Don’t ask questions you don’t want the answers to.
But it didn’t always end in tears. I took some time off from studying after my undergraduate degree. And I had a job as an interim biology teacher for a teacher that left mid-year. Rural school. They hadn’t studied evolution so….. One girl said she ‘wudn’t studying no devil’s teachings’ and promptly put her head on her desk. I said that was fine, but the material would be on the test and it would affect her grade. Except she started to listen to the devil’s teachings. Toward the end of the section she said she told her parents about the material and that she thought that it made a lot of sense.
So there’s hope.
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ServantOfJudgement
Hahahahaha! You browbeat children!? How sophisticated you must think you are, it takes a mental giant to belittle a child for sure. That's not something to brag about, kids get fooled by adults all day long. It's something to be shameful for unless it's done in fun with the child, not as a method of establishing superiority. The ladder is quite easy and poor form. As rancid as your language towards christians is here, I can only imagine what those students endured. Geez.
Chin up, when you and those like you delve into the various sciences, rest in the knowledge that you're obeying your creator Jesus The Christ. Keep following his commands and one day you may finally realize the foolishness of atheism.
There's always hope.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Browbeat? I simply responded to questions raised by the students. Again, don’t ask questions you don’t want answers to.
A physics class once had a gaggle of religiously delusional students that brought up evolution vs creation at unrelated times so I offered for them to bring in a guest to debate a physicist/evolutionist. Their speaker essentially fell back on ‘God of the gaps’ at every opportunity lobbed God Putty grenades. And the students later commented directly on this.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@Servant… “ It's something to be shameful for unless it's done in fun with the child, not as a method of establishing superiority.”
It has nothing to do with establishing superiority, just stating facts in response to questions and claims. I’m sure the same kids felt sad when they learned Santa wasn’t real. As you mentioned, they had been lied to by those closest to them and discovering the lie hurts. Probably hurts to realize those same people are willfully ignorant and full of male bovine fecal matter.
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ServantOfJudgement
Come now Z, you said yourself you didn't dnt hold back like you do on this site. Teachers automatically have a position of power over students. This is basic. Yes. Browbeat. You see my boy, a student must endure and agree with the teacher or suffer belittlement. Often teachers don't realize this, they developed quite the ego from teaching the unlearned. Even if you don't realize it, the students do. Does not a teacher NEED to be the superior one to maintain an orderly class filled with faithful learners?
Your nothing from nothing and life from nothing is every bit as outrageous as a creator with one exception, your up against odds and chances that dwarf any miracle found in the bible of not all combined.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The definition of browbeat involves intimidation and abusive language. I presented factual information that contradicted their beliefs. The girl in the biology clasd was not required to participate and I made no effort to encourage her to do so. I simply presented facts.
The students who asked the questions had a right to ask the questions they did. And I answered those questions. It was a science class. The scientific method rules, the not the blind acceptance of the writings of people that couldn’t explain where the sun went at night.
One of the most religious students I ever taught had a write a paper in his English class about his favorite teacher. Guess who that teacher was? He brought the paper to me. Two things stood out. One, he said his faith was ‘tested’ and yet he maintained them. Two, he commented that the material was presented in a fun manner and everyone was laughing and having fun, And one day in class he suddenly thought ‘Whoa, I’m really learning.’ I’ve often wondered how he reconciled his beliefs with science. But I didn’t ask because it wasn’t any of my business, and he performed well in my class.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Is there no limit to your arrogance SoJ?
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John Komorowski
BOOM!
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ServantOfJudgement
Mike, If you're talking about my itchiness towards Z, that's not arrogance that's cause and effect. If you're talking about me telling Z he's obeying a God he doesn't believe in(and doing a good job of it), that's extreme confidence. It can be difficult to tell the difference between arrogance and extreme confidence to the untrained eye.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Yeah, but when a person claims to have extreme confidence in the existence for things that they cannot provide proof for then it’s not even arrogance but simpky immature silliness.
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John Komorowski
No hope for you SoJ, you are to far down that rabbit hole you went into. Like a lot of things, drugs, hoarding smoking (anything) religion is a CRUTCH, something for folks to help them get through their life as they cannot stand on their own two feet , but need a CRUTCH to lean on. Been through it and I'm standing, but without the gobbledygook. And before you ask: Yeah, I served 65-69 and 73-75. Know what the elephant looks like?
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ServantOfJudgement
John,
Thanks so much for your service. It's men and women like you that's kept this country safe and great for so long. Is not our flag the most beautiful and meaningful of all flags? I served 88-94.
I hope your right about my rabbit hole. I get worried sometimes that my belief in Jesus is just a phase that I'll turn away from. We're all on our own path. Mine is a search for answers. You're right though, alcohol, drugs, evolution, witchcraft, paganism, enthogenic plants, they're all dead ends for truth. Enthogenic plants do offer benefits of insight and self assessment but not ultimate truth. I've gone through all of it and enend up with a Bible in my hands. So far I'm not able to prove it wrong. It's a most unusual book, it knows humanity with shocking accuracy. I think it's converting me live.
Thanks again for your service.
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Rev Mark D
Hope indeed.
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Chris
Maybe the "Hail Satan" was a bit much, but really, come on. Another teacher was dressed as an angel. Why no "religious angst" over that? Just one more case of some "Christian" claiming persecution for not getting their way. It's a public school. The teacher wasn't leading prayers or rituals or anything. That family needs to get over themselves.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
I would hope the teacher who dressed as an angel is also under inverstigation. I suspect Christian hypocrisy is at work here.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I doubt they are... I'm sure the Christian families think the angle costume is fine, but satan pushed them over the edge. If I were the "Devil" teacher, I would sue if the "Angle" teacher isn't being investigated.
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Daniel Gray
They are under investigation
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
That's good to hear.
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Daniel Gray
Oh really? Now since the person that was saying "Hail Satan" and bringing religion into the classroom is being disciplined very strongly since he refused to stop even after he was told to by the students.
The one who dressed like an angel got off with just a warning as since he didnt say anything it was considered a halloween costume and the board considered no harm done.
So one got off and the other may actually end up and lose his teaching position.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
I suppose expecting Christians to be subject to the same rules was a bit over optimistic of me. :(
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Daniel Gray
And since they are lets see how that compares to your whines
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
Obviously not.
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Daniel Gray
obviously so
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The ‘Hail Satan’ was harmless but I had the same feeling. Should have known that would cross the line even with baby delusuonals.
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James Mounts
A teacher who tries to make school interesting and entertaining so students might just pay attention? How dare he?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
A little common sense should be used by teachers. Definitely none used here.
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Rev. Donut
I did not see any other costumes in the class in that picture..
It was probably in fun. The teacher could have left out greeting each student with "Hail Satan" and not poked the plastic pitch ford at anyone and been ok.
As it stands there will probably be a reprimand and at best, a suspension.
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Rev Mark D
Actually yes, little common sense. It pretty much does sum it up.
But was his parents reaction, students reaction, and the school board's reaction overkill or was that realistic as well? I don't do this everyday for a living so really I don't know what to reference it against. The last time I was in such a situation was in the late '80s when I was getting a degree in education, but I never actually went into school districts after I got my degree, I went on to other things. So it would be interesting to have some actual reasoning to follow, based on long experience, but the school district isn't commenting.
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Daniel Gray
Since Satanism is classified by the US Government as a religion
946 F. Supp. 522 (1996)
Robert Francis CARPENTER, Plaintiff, v. Reginald WILKINSON, et al., Defendants.
No. 1:95 CV 0721.
United States District Court, N.D. Ohio, Eastern Division.
September 20, 1996.
And according to a major misreading of the 1st Amendment, this means that this teacher was trying to bring in a religion to the school. As such the very least that should be done to him is some time off without pay and a warning that this will not be tolerated unless he allows all religions to come in as the 1st Amendment clearly states. And if he refuse, then his contract is not renewed and he can find work elsewhere
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Michael Hunt
So should the teacher who dressed up as an Angel also be reprimanded or just the one who dressed up as Satan? It seems to me that if one is going to be reprimanded for bringing religion into the classroom, the other needs to be as well.
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Daniel Gray
If he is in there telling people to worship a specific Deity as this one was when he was saying hail Satan, then yes according to the error interpretation of the 1st amendment. You cant allow this and not allow other religions to have the same time. And want to guess who would be throwing a fit if this was allowed to happen? Just read some of the responses here.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ If he is in there telling people to worship a specific Deity…”
Try replacing your Satire/Sarcasm sensor. In the meantime just know that the statement ‘Hail Satan!’ Was not intended as a call to worship.
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Daniel Gray
Wrong yet again (do you ever get tired of being wrong?) Unless it’s in private or during an event of religious significance, both of those are somewhat peered at with unkind eyes. Religion (and Satanism IS a religion according to the US Government) is look on as private matter. Therefor a call of "Hail Satan" is just as much a religious statement as is the term "praise God" or "peace be unto him" or the term "blessed" before speaking a name like Buddha. or are you now going to call Websters collegiate Dictionary wrong as well as Lexisnexis (think google on steroids) just because you say so?
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Lionheart
Well, being as Satan is a human construct, much like Harry Potter, and…..God, I don’t see what the issue is.
I dressed up as God this year for Halloween. I was invisible, no one could see me, and I didn’t turn up for anyone in need. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Rev Mark D
Lion, it sure sounds like God to me. That was a heck of an impression.
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Katelynne Shouse
Ok by me!
I am a retired teacher and I’d say being dressed as a devil for Halloween at school would be a little risky but would go under the radar if left at that. However, role playing and saying things like, “Hail satan” and brandishing a pitch fork or whatever in a Christian student’s face at a public school was ill advised and frankly, dumb. In my career in teaching, and in other jobs too, administrations WILL use your actions that go against the grain to fire you if they are already hoping to fire you and are looking for a reason. Perhaps this guy had displayed poor judgement in the past.