This past summer brought a wave of reckoning that swept across the country, as scores of statues and monuments celebrating the Confederacy were removed from the public eye. Under the banner of destroying memorials to slavery and hate, the crusade made headlines across the country. In total, at least 30 cities oversaw the removal of one or more statues.
The movement was driven by a general sentiment that in the modern era, it's no longer appropriate to honor historical figures who fought on the side of slavery no matter how influential or valiant they might have been. One by one, from Robert E. Lee to Stonewall Jackson to Jefferson Davis, the statues came down.
Glorifying the heroes of the Confederacy, it would seem, is on its way out.
But what about history's many other controversial figures? Should they get torn down, too? The removal of Confederate statues has sparked a larger debate over where the line should be drawn.
The Columbus Conundrum
Another major figure to be targeted is Christopher Columbus, the famous explorer who "discovered" the new world. In fact, New York City is currently grappling with a proposal to take down a statue of Columbus on the grounds that he is "a symbol of hate."
Although given credit for being the first European to arrive in America, a critical reading of history implicates Columbus and his soldiers in detestable acts of violence against the native peoples killing and enslaving many. Social activists say this is reason enough to take down his likeness from public places.
Defenders of Columbus insist that he was simply a product of his time, acting under 15th century moral standards. It's not fair to judge figures of the past by the standards of today, they argue. After all, who among the Founding Fathers is without sin against the native or slave populations? Are we to disown all of them, too?
**Tarnished Reputations
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From the moment the first Confederate monument came down, detractors warned that the movement would not stop at crusty Civil War figures. After tasting success, the angry mob will inevitably turn on more mainstream figures important people whose statues probably deserve to stand despite their flaws.
Sure enough, that seems to be what's happened. Columbus was the next figure to be targeted, but he would not be the last.
A statue of Thomas Jefferson escaped being torn down, but it was shrouded in black by student protesters who took issue with the fact that Jefferson was a slaveowner. Theodore Roosevelt has also drawn harsh criticism for embodying "patriarchy, white supremacy and colonialism." Protesters defaced a famous statue of him outside the Natural History Museum in New York.
Even Francis Scott Key, the man who wrote the "The Star-Spangled Banner," was unable to dodge the outrage. After an additional verse of the song was unearthed that indirectly mentions slavery, an internet campaign called for the national anthem to be changed to something without racist undertones.
Forgiveness in the Age of Outrage
Clearly, our ancestors were not without their flaws. Many harbored bigoted views, supported notions of racial supremacy, or ignored paths to peace and instead advocated for violence. Some even held slaves.
Thankfully, social progress has come a long way over the past few centuries. It's only natural to look back at antiquated norms and shake our heads. "What were they thinking?" we ask.
Well, here's a question: are these famous figures from our past just products of the age they lived in easy to blame now but not inherently evil or are their sins simply too great to overlook?
What do you think can the flaws of our ancestors be forgiven?
133 comments
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Christian
If the terrorists wish to destroy every monument and commit acts of arson and assault against police & the community, well ALL HAVE SINNED, and Faith in the God of LOVE calls all to forgiveness. Forgiving others does not mean you approve of their worngs, but you look past the flaws and see the Holy Light of the Creator in the lives of His creation. Criminal acts are domestic terrorism, be it destroying a statue or attacking living people. FORGIVENESS cures the human heart from the poison of mind twisting hatred that leads to violence and murder. Reject Hate crimes and embrace Love! :-)
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Timothy Carlstead
All of this racist crap is stupid I mean you are stupid if you think this racist. The monuments of the Confederates is a monument of history because that monument is to resemble what America was like way before blacks walked and worked with whites. I think this is a repeat of when Lincoln abolished slavery. The democrats yell racist and the Republicans yell equal. I support the Republican party because I agree with them on a lot of things. When I have my kids with my wife I want to show them the history of how far America has come from the time there was slavery, to segregation, and all the way to now when one race is walking with the other race. So I think they should leave the monuments alone and go on. So to those who disagree or are angry with me you can go cry and suck your thumb because I know what is right. Minister Timothy Carlstead
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Milton
The Democrats are removing statues of historical Democrats that supported slavery. Looks like they want to sweep their historical views under the rug. But at the same time somehow blame Republicans? Wasn't the first Republican president the one that freed the slaves? I think his name was Abraham Lincoln.
The civil war between the North and the South was not about slavery. The Democrats in the North owned slaves, and the Democrats in the South owned Slaves. It was the first Republican president (in the North) that ended slavery.
I will never understand how any black American can be Democrat. It is a slap to the face of their ancestors.
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John Owens
But black US citizens (I refuse to say African-Americans, unless they ACTUALLY immigrated from Africa) are mostly convinced that all the EVIL democrats switched to the Republican party, leaving only good, noble democrats in the Democratic party, contrary to all the evidence that says otherwise.
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Milton
Interesting. I haven't heard that hypothesis. I have heard that the Dems try to hide all the bad things their party has done and try to confuse everyone as to where the bad ideas come from.
For example: The Nazi party was the National Socialist party. The Dems try to say that the socialist part was the good intentions of the Nazi party, and the Nationalist part was the bad intentions. Well, who is all about Nationalism right now? The Republicans.
So you can see how it's a petty attempt throw blame of bad ideas on the opposite party. Sorry Dems, just own up to your history of bad ideas.
Most countries care about their nationality.. so why is Nationalism represented in a negative way?
I would even argue that the Nazi party stopped being Nationalistic when they tried to globalize and invade the surrounding countries.
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John Owens
I have some very good friends and close kin who are black Americans, and I have been told by more than one that all those bad Democrats are now Republicans, as if the Democratic Party somehow turned over a new leaf and became the wonderful, kind, loving party of brotherly love, which is how a LOT of Democrats see themselves, even as they are shouting epithets at non-Democrats (and drooling hatred for Donald Trump, even though he was a hero to them just a few years ago), looting, encouraging fornication and criminality and generally feeling superior without any justification for doing so.
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angel
brainwashing at it's finest. Perhaps they should stand up for their slave brother's and sister's from Mexico. That's why the are here. Slave labor and let the taxpayers flip the bill.
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Ron
Only a complete idiot would believe that you could erase history by destroying its symbols.
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Jeff
The deeper issue is not about slavery, none of the people involved in tearing down the statues were slaves...none of their parents were slaves...and few of their grandparents were slaves. This is now an issue of one group of people FORCING their will on other groups. If I do not like something because it offends me I do not have the right to tear it down, that is anarchy and will only lead to hate and more violence. The course of action that should be taken is through legal means, go to court and have it removed properly or have a vote to determine what is allowed for memorials. But randomly choosing to destroy property should never be a method peace loving people should choose. The last thought...who has the right to determine what is offensive? Are the people destroying statues the same ones that allow porn and sex toy stores? Are they the same ones that do not speak out against gangs and the killing fields that our cities have become? Are they the same ones that use illegal drugs? I think we have many more issues that should be offensive and are affecting our everyday lives.
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Tom B
Jeff...good thoughts and questions...we can add the thought that most people will not take actions like that alone; their "beliefs" are only strong enough to join a mob, where they are close to anonymous...peace...Tom
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Jeff
Tom, Really good comment on something that I didn't consider. I can only imagine the impact it would make if these same mobs tore down strip clubs or crack houses, or if they assembled and marched through the streets to promote their faith, whatever it is. We tolerate immorality to an excess but find fault with a statue that has never offended anyone living.
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Tom B
Jeff...thanks...i am glad you have joined the forum...you will find that many of the comments are critical of someone, instead of being constructive...people find it much easier to be critical of anyone but themselves...if everyone really looked inside, as to how they deal with themselves, we would have a lot more peace...Tom
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Father Fred
Those who seek to erase our country's statues and history are no better than ISIS leveling many historical locations and destroying religious history. It's ignorance fueled by a desire to elevate themselves above all. As a history major there are many things I find repugnant of our past, but if we sanitize history our next generation will not learn and probably repeat it. I also find it interesting that so much of the past transgressions need to be wiped clean, yet a weeks worth of news will find many more crimes of the near past which are largely ignored.
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John Maher
FATHER FRED, WHO is TRYING to ERASE HISTORY, YOU CAN'T, STATUES are only GOOD FOR PIDGEONS to CRAP on and DAWGS to PISS on, LIKE DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP and ROY feel the child MOORE do to YOU and OTHERS with YOUR MENTALITY
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Ron
Father Fred. As a history major, I am sure you are familiar with what Winston Churchill had to say about history being repeated. For those of you not familiar with it, look it up.
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E M Moriarty
It’s not about forgiveness or historical importance. It is about the black folk who must explain to their children why there are statues in positions of honor, that celebrate and respect the people who fought a war against the USA to defend the “state right” to own persons of color as slaves.
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DaveM
Ed, you are right, and I often wonder how the those who support the confederate cause would feel if black people had owned white slaves.
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John Owens
Just an incidental comment, there are black people now who own white slaves, as well as black ones. Not sure if anyone thinks that is relevant. Just saying.
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angel
And that just gives them the right to commit crimes? graffiti, property damage? Two wrongs don't make a right! I don't care how offended or how high your waiving the righteous banner.
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Tom B
Good people...respectfully, there is no such thing as selective forgiveness...do you think Jesus, Buddha, and similar persons would have standards/rules/restrictions regarding forgiveness?...peace...Tom
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David Mitchell
One of my kids raised an interesting point: What if 100 years from now, we feel about eating meat ("killing innocent sentient animals, etc.") the way we feel now about slavery? Will we be pulling down statues of people famous today because they were carnivores? Einstein? Mandela? Lincoln?
We are now on the slippery slope.
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Tom B
David...good point; especially since it came from one of your children...i see less and less of creative/spiritual thinking from children today...peace...Tom
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john
I wonder how we would have behaved in the 18th century. The Founding Fathers were born into a society that had embraced slavery for 100 years. They recognized the evil of slavery but what to do to escape the evil? During Jefferson’s lifetime there were 30 violent revolts from slaves and freed blacks: hence, Jefferson’s assessment that “we have the wolf by both ears. We can neither hold on nor let go.” Tough decisions at the time.
Our current pressing dilemma is environmental. We inherited a 100 year old carbon fuel economy. Lots of folks believe we are destroying the planet, but I don’t know anyone who has been willing to avoid using fossil fuels. One might consider that the level of evil from planetary destruction approaches that of slavery. The issues and times are different, but it seems as if at our core we are no more righteous than the antebellum slaveholders.
Upon reflection, we may be less righteous. There always were abolitionists, but not even Al Gore has freed his life of fossil fuels.
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John Owens
I really like this comment, John. It shows a lot of thought.
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John Maher
IF BUTTERFLY BOOGER OWINS likes it, SOMETHING MUST BE WRONG, RIGHT JOHN ??? DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP and ROY kiss the babies MOORE, LOCK THEM UP !!!
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kimm
Those of you who want to see the statues of the South gone, then I suggest that, if you have relatives in Arlington National, you should, by your own remarks, remove them ASAP. After all, that was property donated to the people of this country by Lee and his family. It was Lee's home. And you certainly don't want your relatives resting at the home of a Confederate now, do you?
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Mike L
The issue of removing statues venerating confederate war figures is not slavery; the issue is treason. The men portrayed in statues and other memorials were traitors to The United States whether they were christians, democrats, slave-owners, abolitionists, or any thing else. The memorials and statutes celebrate them for being traitors, so do not belong on public land or paid for or maintained with public funds. Removing shrines to treason is not destroying history; it is just ending the publicly funded worship of traitors by a select few who want to see it repeated.
As to Columbus? All those statues are up because he "discovered" the America's - which he did not do in any sense of the word. It's time to stop telling lies as facts.
Better, I think, to venerate people who performed acts that bettered society rather than those who tried to destroy it. Put up statues to Harriet Tubman, Dwight Eisenhower, or any number of Americans who served the country and made it a better place.
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Nevik Smithtree
Beware Northerners! after the Confederate statues are removed, next will be statues of YOUR Civil War ancestors because of the war atrocities YOUR ancestors committed against other Americans! burning of Atlanta, Sherman's march to the sea, siege of Vicksburg, plus many other examples are all war crimes!!
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Tom B
John...your statements about the "news" support the idea that to spend time on media and politics is a waste of time...just try to be a loving human being, and avoid wasting time on ego...peace...Tom
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John Owens
I agree to an extent, but I am commanded to watch for the signs that point to the end of the age. That doesn't necessarily mean to watch TV, or Facebook, but to pay some attention to what is going on. I try to show love by my actions. I just found out I have an unusual liver problem, but I refuse to let everyone who knows me be sad for me. I lean toward the Stoic philosophy of Lucilius Senecus (Seneca) in that aspect of life-- we should bear loss and pain with the same grace as we should bear progress and physical pleasure. I hope when I exhale my dying breath, that it comes out as a laugh. We'll find out one day. I want people to remember me as a lively, emotional, sparkling person, and not a lackluster boring one.
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Tom B
John...it seems to me that people will remember you as you ask...i respectfully suggest you meditate on why it is that your liver is affected by your life...there are always spiritual reasons...i wish you good health...peace...Tom
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John Owens
Yeah, the doc told me there are many herbal supplements that actually contain things that are bad for the liver, and he asked if I have been exposed to chemicals. So, I may have taken herbal supplements to help me in one aspect, and then killed my liver by doing so, or I may have touched something that was absorbed by my skin and done something to my liver.
I drink and cook with distilled water, very seldom drink liquor, and live by the dietary guidelines prescribed by Moses in Leviticus 11. I don't drink soda and seldom drink canned drinks. I may have sustained prolonged exposure to low-level radiation. I still don't have a diagnosis or a prognosis. I cannot find anything in my spirituality that would cause this. Not saying that I am a paragon of virtue compared to Christ. If I die tonight, I am worthy of death.
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John Maher
JOHN BOOGER BUTTERFLY OWINS, YOUR ALREADY DEAD, MENTALLY that IS !!! DUMP DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP and HIS A H BUDDY ROY touch a child MOORE
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John Owens
Epilogue: It is a congenital condition called Caroli's.
"Caroli disease (communicating cavernous ectasia, or congenital cystic dilatation of the intrahepatic biliary tree) is a rare inherited disorder characterized by cystic dilatation (or ectasia) of the bile ducts within the liver."
So, nothing I did caused it. Nothing I can do about it. The liver expert told me not to change anything.
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Tom B
John (12/18; 7:37 am)...I am saying that Murdoch controls a large part of American media (i do not know the percentage), and the media he controls emulates the National Enquirer...when I was growing up in New York, in the fifties and sixties, the Post, which was founded by Alexander Hamilton, featured real news, and columns by eminent writers, who presented both liberal and conservative points of view...now, the only reason to buy it is for the sports (I am a New York Rangers fan)...my family had the New York Times delivered, and my grandfather had all 7 New York newspapers delivered to him (now there are 3, including the Post)...sadly, technology is teaching children that life is a series of sound and video bites, and you can do anything on a computer or cell phone almost instantly...between this and the world economics of the rich, the world is in the worst status in my lifetime...in any event, i hope you have a good day...peace...Tom
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John Owens
I'm afraid nobody knows what real news is anymore, Tom. If I see any, I cannot be sure it isn't slanted, biased, or outright falsehood. One certainly cannot believe the mainstream media, and that leaves, what? The fringe. The right-wing commentators, like Rush, Beck, Mark Levin, Michael Savage (who doesn't consider himself all that right-wing), Larry Elder, etc. The conspiracy theorists. Of course, we know they are at least somewhat correct (the conspiracy theorists), because if they weren't, we could trust and believe the MSM, but we reject them and refuse to accept them anyway, because they have been labeled conspiracy theorists, and we don't want to be lumped in with them. We have to watch the news and learn to read between the lines. Hear what they are NOT telling us. Critically analyze their BS to determine what is real and what is not. Understand that saying something over and over without substantiating it does NOT make it true. See when NPR is actually trying to sabotage one candidate in favor of another, or advocate for different political platforms (all left-leaning). It can be done, and it isn't that difficult, but most people are too lazy (mentally) to DISCERN anything anymore. They'd rather take a side that they HAVE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE is the educated point of view, and just stop thinking for themselves, which, even if it were correct, they would be willingly ignorant for taking that point of view. Most are afraid to analyze their own viewpoints, because the thing most of us fear more than anything is change. If they discover their cult leaders are lying or wrong, to whom will they go next?
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Mary Therese Lemanek
This is the kind of conversation that would best be had face to face. Maybe there are a lot of non-white residents of Trump tower but they are not representative of the average non-white citizens. Although non-whites may have greater opportunity, they still lag significantly behind Caucasian. There is great disparity in the education available and far fewer people of color have the inherited wealth or "legacy" pull that white Americans have. The criminal justice system is significantly biased against Black Americans, particularly if you are male. These are all truths, like it or not.
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John Owens
Government cannot ever fix the disparities between ethnic groups, since government does not create those disparities. We seldom hear discussions about how much of the income disparities between ethnic groups is actually a result of their own cultures or sub-cultures. You can never make two people equal, much less whole ethnic groups. We need more two-parent families with parents who take an active interest in their children's mental and emotional development and well-being, in ALL ethnic groups. We need parents who set good examples for their children, male and female, are financially responsible, and try to save up an inheritance for their grandchildren. There are certain ethnic groups who immigrate here, and within one or two generations, have moved well ahead of the national average, financially and in education, without becoming criminals. That should tell anyone who is interested that sometimes our own culture limits us, and WE are the only ones who can change THAT. As for inherited wealth, taking the inheritance from one person does not split it among others. It just takes what is rightfully theirs and the government consumes it. I will leave something (not as much as I would like) for my grandchildren, and no one will take it. There are ways to see to that.
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angel
HAHAHAHAHAHA! Wealth? please? I don't have any wealth, I'm lucky to live paycheck to paycheck WITHOUT welfare!!
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Mary Therese Lemanek
Racial suppression is a fact and it happens day in and day out in every State of the Union. If you do not recognize Administration support for it, nothing anyone here can say will alter your beliefs.
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Chuck
Cite an example please. Also cite an example of Trump practicing racism. As a friend of mine put it quite well........ more black people work/live in Trump Tower than live within a 10 mile radius of Michael Moore's house (and many other loud mouth Liberals).
Non-Whites actually have far more opportunity now than whites, thanks to racist law/policy.
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John Owens
Right you are there, Chuck. Just because a lot of loud-mouths keep accusing the administration of something doesn't make it true at ALL. Give us examples or admit you are just blowing smoke, please, Mary.
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Tom B
Chuck/John...it is important to listen to different points of view, without characterizing them with pejorative rhetoric...you can easily find just as many "loud-mouths" in each point of view...so what?...meaningful communication only comes about.without attacks...Tom
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John Owens
Tom, you are correct, but I would like to point out that I have not attacked anyone on this page, thought I have been somewhat gently attacked. I did say loud-mouths, because that is who the press likes to give air-time. 1000 people can meet and NOT riot or make trouble, and the press will pay no attention whatsoever, but let 5 people gather with placards and chanting, and the press is all over it. Then, overnight, there is a "movement" afoot, thus granting the press MUCH more power than it rightfully deserves.
I think it is so strange that people can insult and attack me, and no one says a thing to them, but then, people like you try to IMPROVE upon ME. Why do you suppose that is? Is it because you think I am superior to my detractors? I don't think that.
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Tom B
John...re: your 2:06 comment (maybe i will locate my comments better this way)...i feel you think about what you write, and try to generate conversation, or i would not write to you...i try to avoid arguments, as i feel they are totally based on ego...discussions, to me, are to see if there are different points of view to consider...i was simply suggesting that the characterization "loud mouths" does not engender discussion...i definitely believe that the media, largely controlled by Rupert Murdoch, has largely degenerated into a facsimile of the National Enquirer...this is true of both print and tv, and it is another nail in the coffin of democracy...i feel a large part of the blame is on the technology that concentrates on violent games for children, as well as a lack of serious thought...technology was supposed to be a tool, not a cultural guide...sad...Tom
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John Owens
Just one thing-- are you saying Murdoch controls MOST of the media? Or just the media that he controls is a facsimile of the National Enquirer?
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Chuck
I wasn't attacking anyone....just raising the flag on BS
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John Owens
...and I'm WITH Chuck on this.
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Josand Agencies
Forgiveness is the only option rather than judging the dead people, but anything that can remind us of their actions should be faced out for us to forget.
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Rev Ned
I think you meant "fazed out". Do you you think Thomas Jefferson's memory needs to be eradicated? After all, he not only owned slaves, but sexually abused them.
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John Owens
I guess you saw a video of that.
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John Wilson
I think you make some good points. If you read all you submitted and then compare that to the rise of Hitler you might think you have a drawn a simile. However, it is not public education that is the problem....it's basically the Republican party that has a model based on the success of Hitler. You may want to verify your interpretation and intent of the comments from others that you have submitted. Without context these mean nothing.
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Chuck
The Nazis were a socialist model, as were the Communists. My family lived through Nazism in Germany, and they have absolutely NOTHING to do with Republicanism........ The Nazi model reflects our current Liberal model that grows less and less tolerant of anything outside of what they believe, destruction of history, manipulation of language, as well as what can and cannot be discussed.
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Milton
IMPORTANT:
Chuck is correct, John. Nazi literally translates to National Socialist party. The word national is just a prefix to key word - Socialist.
National Conservatism is not an evil concept. Conservatives by nature want to defend the well being of everyone in their country, regardless of genetic background. Nationalism is simply pride for your country.
Anyone that claims the Nazi party and the Republican party are similar is either ill-informed, misinformed, or informed but malicious to the Republican party.
The reason why mis-educated individuals concluded there was a connection is because they thought that the Muslim ban was racist. This is imperially false. Islam is a set of ideas - not a race. You can have any genetic background and be a Muslim, or a Christian, or Mormon, etc.
If I were to tell you that recently in the streets of a city there was a large gathering of people that were chanting "Kill the Jews!", what group would you say I am referring to, and what country would you say this happened in? Well, it was in Sweden and they were Muslim refugees. There's your modern day Nazi right there.
If you truly care about world peace, you would condemn radical Muslims, the Islamic State, and anyone that supports them.
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Lee Boutell
Chuck, the Nazis were fascists, the exact opposite of communists. The communists were Hitler's worst nightmare, why do you think he ruined his chances for world domination when he foolishly attacked the Soviet Union instead of finishing off Great Britain. Look at the actual definitions of fascism (Mussolini and Hitler) and communism. Fascism is far right wing, communism is far left wing.
I fear you have an agenda in search of facts, but you fail to find accurate facts.
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Chuck
Wrong again Lee...... the same people that founded/bankrolled Communism did the same for the Nazis. They are not opposites, they are two forms of cancer (socialism). Communisms goal was to create the Soviet Union which they did, and the Nazis job was to create the European Union ....Socialisms ultimate goal is the destruction of all nations, and creating a handful of world unions.
Hitler started doing his own thing though, realized he was being used, and attacked Russia. That's when the banksters that funded Communism/Nazism put all their efforts to stopping Hitler and destroying Germany. They got their European Union years later though through "Socialism" anyway.
The Nazi resistance were all German Conservatives..... same way the future Nazi resistance in America will be all Conservatives.
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Milton
Sorry Lee, but that just is not true.
Fascism occurs when a group in power is forcibly suppressing opposition and control. In the United States, if you are Republican, you are attacked for having an opposing opinion to the norm. Currently the norm (mainstream) is Leftist ideology. Leftist want to suppress freedom of speech, and control group thinking over individual thinking.
Before Hitler rose to power, The Jewish community were very successful in business and networking in Germany and the surrounding countries. Hitler saw this as a problem so he rallied all of the lower class non-Jewish people (group thinking) and spoke heavily about income inequality (sounds familiar?). He convinced everyone that was "not privileged" to go after the "privileged" Jewish people.
Today we have same thing happening. The difference is these new group thinkers are carrying out the fascism are not additional advocating for an Aryan white blue-eyed blond haired race. Last part, you may not see the Leftists as being in power, but what is power? It's the ability to influence massive numbers of people to fulfill an agenda. Today's agenda is to feel like the victim, group together, and go after the most "privileged" class.
If these Leftist get what they want, they will be the next fascist political party in power (minus the Aryan race part).
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Chuck
Well put
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Lee Boutell
Gilbert, here is the definition of Fascism: "a political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."
This is what is currently in power in the USA--a dictatorial leader that uses race and nation to forcibly suppress any opposition.
You say that American leftists are in power right now? What universe do you live in?
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John Owens
I haven't seen any forcible suppression of opposition in this country. On the contrary, I see the present administration bending over backward to NOT prosecute treasonous acts by members of the opposition. Also, to what racial suppression do you refer? If you are talking about police, they are not members of the administration. If you are not talking about police, then, about whom are you speaking? Leftists certainly control NPR and most of the media, and most schools. If the administration did, the left might soon cease to exist, within a generation or so.
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Milton
Lee, yes that is the definition of Fascism, but you fail to show supporting evidence of how that represents the current president. If anything, that definition sounds a lot like the Leftist mainstream ideology.
You are cherry picking my argument by only addressing a couple sentences out of my entire claim. If you want to present a strong counter argument, you need to address it in it's entirety.
We do not have a dictatorial leader, that is empirically false. We have a democratic republic. He was elected into office by the people of the nation.
I did say that American leftists are in power right now, and have been for many years. Majority of the mainstream media, the FBI, and Hollywood praised and supported President Obama and Hillary Clinton. Is President Trump getting the same praise?
You made three claims in one sentence. Trump is a dictatorial leader, he's racist, and he is suppressing opposition. Please support your claims.
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Lee Boutell
Gilbert, a book could be written with evidence of the current President's authoritarian, dictatorial, fascist actions, including: advocating violence against opponents & protesters, calling the media enemies of the state, defending torture and war crimes against supposed enemies, inability to handle criticism, expressing admiration for dictators like Putin & Kim Jong Un, quoting Mussolini in his tweets, stirring up resentment against immigrants and outsiders, purging those in government who express opposition, delegitimizing our court system and judges, contempt for those perceived as weak, disdain for human & civil rights, military involvement in civilian government, labeling supporters as "patriots" and opponents as "traitors". I could go on.
Here's one partial list, along with the supporting articles and direct quotes from the President: https://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughTrumpSpam/comments/4teoxl/a_final_response_to_the_tell_me_why_trump_is_a/
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Milton
Lee,
Sure a book could be written on all the bad things Trump has either actually done or a bunch of fake news about him. A book could also be written about all of the horrible things Hillary has done too. This is just becomes a lesser of two evils argument.
I clicked on your link and scanned the websites referenced for the talking points. Majority of those sites are politically bias against the Republican party (cnn, vox, washington post, ny times, salon, nbc news, time). The only one on that list I know for sure is extremely honest is the one Daily Wire link from 2016. But regardless, I am not saying Trump is anywhere near perfect, but that is not evidence of a dictatorship. I personally would have rather had Ted Cruz or Rand Paul for president.
Can I ask you an honest question - What do you want out of a presidency?
I want lower taxes for all, more money in your pocket on your paycheck, more incentives for start up businesses, a free market, better boarder protection from people that want to enter this country to harm you and your family, higher GDP, better trade relationships with countries that have common economic values, ... I could go on.
It has been proven that when countries adopt capitalism, there is economic progression. The top 6 countries on the GDP rank all have incorporated some capitalism in their economy and have been doing much better.
When the opposite is done and they double down on socialism, there is economic regression. A perfect example of failed socialism is the city of Detroit. The city is in ruins due to failed government programs. The tax is too high and the results are too low. More government control means the cost goes up and the quality goes down. When you have a free market, it creates competition which drives the cost down and the quality up.
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John Owens
If it was discovered that Trump's pee was the fountain of youth, and his flatulence could heal all manner of respiratory diseases, and his breath could clean the pollution out of the atmosphere, the Left would still hate him, because their masters have told them they should, because he beat Hillary in spite of her treachery. No reasoning whatsoever.
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Lee Boutell
Gilbert, thank you for your thoughtful response, it is refreshing for this discussion forum. In response to your honest question, I also want those same things out of a presidency. We agree on the expectations but we apparently differ with the methods.
As a small business person for most of my adult life (i.e. a capitalist) I value independence, freedom, economic opportunity and hard work. I also value highly our COMMONWEALTH, that is, our communities, our parks, our natural environment, the air, water, soil, our libraries, public schools and institutions, our roads, bridges, you get the idea. If we wish to have a decent society we need to protect and invest in these important parts of our lives. Turning our backs on all of these things is a recipe for failure and to revert back to 3rd world status.
The far right policies of our current leadership value and prioritize only the needs of corporations (NOT small businesses), the CEO's and the ultra-wealthy of this country, like the Koch brothers, Adelson ,Mercer, and a few other mega donors to the GOP: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/a-guide-to-the-billionaires-bankrolling-the-gop-candidates/391233/
Sure, they might throw a temporary bone to some of the middle class, but all we have seen from the current President and Congress at every turn is the reversal of any investment in our commonwealth and instead the transfer of wealth into the pockets of those very donors and the wealthy, the very people who need it the least. In every facet of our society we are moving backwards due to this immense transfer of wealth that has been happening for decades and is now in a horrific and mean spirited stage of.
Those huge donors do not need more billions of dollars stashed away in off shore accounts. They need to pay their fair share, at least the same tax burdens as their secretaries and nannies, but they are not. Their extreme unwillingness to pay their fair share is destroying our commonwealth and our society. Look at our crumbling infrastructure, schools and the destruction of our environment.
Capitalism can be the very best system, if it is regulated and taxed, as it is in much of Europe, in Japan, and other progressive countries. When the USA have had the highest taxes we have had the best society and the most successful middle class--the 50's, 60's, and after raising taxes in the 90's.
We are going in the wrong direction. We are moving in the direction of national decay and economic stagnation. I like many of the campaign promises of the current President--re-building infrastructure, creating jobs, improving the schools, strengthening health care and others. But it seems those were meant only to win the election, and he has made no moves in those directions whatsoever. We have been duped by the super rich, and they are robbing us blind, and laughing all the way to their piles of stashed cash, while the country is falling away from relevance, is rattling sabers, and is being feared or laughed at by the rest of the world.
I could go on.
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Milton
A thriving economy best occurs when governments lower taxes and allow all businesses to handle their money in the best way they know possible. When the tax is lowered, that means more flexibility for companies to spend money on investments, research, technology, innovation, and raises for their employees. They don't just hang on to it and let it sit in a bank off shore. No smart business owner would let it's capital become static. They would use it as a tool to better their lives, and the lives of others.
When you increase the tax on businesses, you incentives corporations to become crony capitalist. Higher taxes forces the big corps to find ways to bend the rules. Higher taxes = crony capitalism.
Do you really believe the government is the best entity for safety net and maintenance programs? They are terrible! It would be way better to have companies that could do all the stuff the government does. Allow them compete with each other so they are forced to lower their prices and forced to raise the quality of their services.
You shouldn't be forced to give money to a monopolized entity called the government so they can provide low quality services at a high cost. The government has no incentive to maximize quality and minimize cost cause they have no competitors.
The government's only role should be to provide protection and security for every individual in its country. That's all. Limited government is good for every citizen's ability to pursue a quality and prosperous life.
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Chuck
Heres a fantastic example for you, since I can see it from my office window……The Statue of Liberty.
Most are not aware, but the Statue of Liberty is not what most people think it is. It was given to us as a “gift” by the French Jacobins (French version of the Satanic Free Masons). It is a statue of the Whore of Babylon, Satan’s concubine, which goes back to the days of Babylon and who is worshipped by Satanists worldwide. Her other names include Isis, Diana, Columbia, Ishtar, Semiramis, Zuul, etc. Her torch and rays of light coming from her head represent “The Bearer of Light”, or Mother of Lucifer. The tablets in her hand represent the new rules that will apply to eventual world Satanism, and the chains on her ankle represent mankind being trapped in this world by Satan (Lord of this World).New York is full of this symbolism, as is Washington DC…..btw, “DC” is District of Columbia..yes, district of the whore of Babylon. Her statue is also on top of the Capital Dome.
Anyway, it took some more educated New Yorkers and Americans a little while to realize this, but it was too late……there it was in New York Harbor. What she symbolizes is the evil of the old world chasing us here to the New World (no escape).
Now…………… with all that said, wouldn’t you think I would be all for tearing down the Statue of Liberty??? Guess what, Im not! Why? Because it means something else to us now, and also for those aware of what she actually represents, it is a warning we see every day that evil exists and follows us everywhere. It is a lesson to be learned. It is history.
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Elan
It is now believed that the model for the Statue of Liberty was not the artist's mother, but, in fact, his brother... https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/statue-of-liberty-man_us_5779a460e4b0a629c1aa711a
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John Owens
I just hope we can forget BHO if he ever sits down and butts out and shuts up.
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Lee Boutell
It's all about appropriate use of public spaces. Statues are powerful symbols (the Statue of Liberty), and represent what we value in common. If they are highly offensive to a large percentage of people they should be removed from spaces that belong to ALL of us, and placed where they are not IN OUR FACES, offending people. It's that simple. It's not about erasing history, it's about publicly glorifying it and honoring it. Statues are symbols of what we value, what we honor, and what we literally look up to. They should represent our COMMON VALUES, not divisive ones. Those statues belong in museums or in private spaces, not in the public square.
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Chuck
And here in lies the problem..... at least two generations have been socially engineered (brainwashed) in our ever worsening public schools, taken over by Bolshevik thinking "progressives", to believe that all things must be done away with if it offends anyone at all. Its not in your face, its in a public space as designated by the people who lived through it, so that we can all remember the lessons involved. If the criteria for taking down monuments was that it offended some group of people, we would have no monuments at all in the world.
Public Indoctrination (quote, "education") has also convinced at least 2 generations that they are the majority of thought in this country, and that all things MUST reflect some Commonality (a Communist ideal). The fact is that Snowflakes are the minority, but make the most noise and whining, so that the majority of us are losing our historical markers (and our Country).
Our "education system is a joke and Communist leaning for a reason. It was designed to be by its founders (also the founders of Communism) to ever so slowly destroy one generation worse than the prior so that nobody notices due to its slow crawl, until batshit crazy un-American ideals become the norm. Its what these dirtbags call incrementalism, or as the TV calls it "progressivism".
Destroying history leaves uneducated blank slates for these bastards to mold into whatever they want.....THATS why they are doing it!
Heres a quote for ya........... sums up what has happened to our education system. Once number 1 in the world, now somewhere around 23 or 24
“In our dream we have limitless resources, and the people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hand. The present educational conventions fade from our minds; and, unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive rural folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or of science. We are not to raise up among them authors, orators, poets, or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians. Nor will we cherish even the humbler ambition to raise up from among them lawyers, doctors, preachers, statesmen, of whom we now have ample supply. The goal is simple. We will organize children and teach them in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way."
- John D. Rockefeller, Founding of the General Education Board (1906)
Translation.....destroy values, the family, logic, independent thinking....& just create mindless slaves. Which sums up millennials basically perfectly.
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katy wall
Chuck I think you could easily shorten all of your comments in the following way and they will be more understandable:
"blah blah blah communists blah blah blah nazis blah blah blah libtards blah blah blah socialism"
Glad to help.
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Lee Boutell
Chuck, that quote is actually from Frederick T. Gates, speaking for the Rockefeller Foundation in 1913. What you are omitting is the 1914 response of the National Education Association when they stated: “We view with alarm the activity of the Carnegie and Rockefeller Foundations—agencies not in any way responsible to the people—in their efforts to control the policies of our State educational institutions, to fashion after their conception and to standardize our courses of study, and to surround the institutions with conditions which menace true academic freedom and defeat the primary purpose of democracy as heretofore preserved inviolate in our common schools, normal schools, and universities.”
Chuck, you are railing against public education when the very forces you quoted and fear are the privately funded foundations who serve their own interests rather than the public. Re-check your facts and look again.
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Chuck
They started this purge using Confederates, so people might accept it.....then they moved to others in American history. If these retards have their way, they would tear down all of Washington DC and replace it with "Tolerant Whacky Miniature Golf". Losers who know nothing of history have no problem destroying it. They are using reasons that constitute roughly 1% of someones doings and character to tear down their monuments, and glazing over the rest. Uneducated morons.
And isn't it interesting............. the one Confederate monument they refused to tear down was Albert Pike in Washington DC. Guess why....... because he was one of the head Satanists that created the modern day Democratic Party. That's right, Democrats come from slave owning, devil worshipping, Queen loving traitors. Known back the as the Dixiecrats.
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Lee Boutell
The reason Pike's statue has not been removed is because he is honored for his public work as a citizen and not as a soldier. Here's a quote from the statue dedication in 1901:
"Although Albert Pike was a soldier in the Civil War, this statue will commemorate him rather as a victor in the honorable rivalries of peace. It is well that you thus add to the comparatively small number of statues in the city of Washington which honor the victories of peace rather than of war."
— H. B. F. McFarland, Evening Star, October 23, 1901
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Chuck
LOLOLOL..... is that what his followers wrote on it? what a surprise!!! Go do some research on who he really was. And anyway, I don't care.....he offends me.... he must be torn down!!! (by your logic)
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biblical scholar
Your logic is pointless, Lee. Chuck has never heard a conspiracy theory he didn't like (unless it's about daddy Trump)
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Chuck
No conspiracy...... he spoke proudly of being a Satanist in his own book "Morals & Dogma", which is almost the bible of Satanic Freemasonry worldwide. He also was a founder of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn in the South, which became the founding of the Dixiecrats (current Democrats) and the KKK. Here are some memorable quotes from his own book........what a great guy (lol)
"Lucifer, the Light-Bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!iv"
"The devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry. For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythological and horned form of the God Pan; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.v"
"The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is Yahweh (GOD) reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but a negation of God...the Kabala imagined Him to be a "most occult light."vi "
"That which we must say to a crowd is—We worship a God, but it is the God that one adores without superstition. To you, Sovereign Grand Inspectors General, we say this, that you may repeat it to the Brethren of the 32nd, 31st, and 30th degrees—The Masonic Religion should be, by all of us initates of the high degrees, maintained in the purity of the Luciferian Doctrine. If Lucifer were not God, would Adonay whose deeds prove his cruelty, perdify and hatred of man, barbarism and repulsion for science, would Adonay and his priests, calumniate him? Yes, Lucifer is God, and unfortunately Adonay is also god. For the eternal law is that there is no light without shade, no beauty without ugliness, no white without black, for the absolute can only exist as two gods: darkness being necessary to the statue, and the brake to the locomotive. Thus, the doctrine of Satanism is a heresy; and the true and pure philosophical religion is the belief in Lucifer, the equal of Adonay; but Lucifer, God of Light and God of Good, is struggling for humanity against Adonay, the God of Darkness and Evil.vii"
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Chuck
You know how people always ask...."how did people allow the Nazis or the Communists to take power??"....these people need to look in the mirror, because its THEM!.
All evil regimes in history tried to erase history in the form of monuments, books, etc. The Libtards in this country amaze me that they seriously do not realize they are being groomed and are acting as useful idiots for a planned next regime within the United States. But, as they say, the more trust in government one has, the less knowledge of history one has. And to give that some historical reference..... Fascism (Nazis), Communism, and Socialism are all one in the same. In the current United States, they are calling it "Democratic Socialism"....... the Nazis called it "National Socialism"....the Communists called it "State Socialism". Its all cancer.
If we tore down all memory of imperfect people, we would tear down everything.....because nobody is perfect. Tearing down American historical figures is nothing more than the evil powers that be using the useful idiots to help them erase what America was getting away from in forming this country....back then they called it Monarchy. Monarchy has been re-packaged into "Socialism". That's right.....the powers that be (International Royalty intertwined with International Banking) have successfully repackaged the same old sh@t to look like new sh@t. The youngest and most freedom oriented way of life is still Constitutional Americana, and they are trying to destroy it....using the low hanging intelligence fruit of this country to help them do it....Liberals.
And BTW....... Current "Liberals" are a fraud. They've changed the meaning of the word Liberal. Original Classical Jeffersonian Liberalism refers to the liberties of the people being expanded, and government being as small as possible. The "Liberals" of today would be seen as Crown Loyalists against America in the time of the Founding Fathers.
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rabbi jim
It is a real shame and pity that the American people love to tear down, degrade, and disgrace. Why can't people just leave well enough alone and focus on improving theirs and other peoples lives.
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John Owens
People love BS, Jim.
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John Maher
NO JOHN BOOGIE BUTTERFLY OWINS, the FOLLOWERS of DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP and ROY date the child MOORE LOVE VERBAL DIARRHEA and SUCK it up LIKE YOU BUTTERFLY
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John Owens
Okay. Lone Haranguer strikes again. Whoo-hoo!
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John Owens
It's all bullshit. People just clamoring for one thing or another. Crying about stuff they know little or nothing about. Mindless distractions. This country is now all about the three Ps-- Propaganda, Protesting, Pandering. All bullshit. Government bigwigs all going to the same clubs and restaurants and parties and the people out here arguing over bullshit, like dogs in a pen fighting over a chew-toy.
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katy wall
A direct quote from Robert E. Lee.
“I think it wiser, not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”
Nobody is crying about stuff they know little about. Those of us that have actually studied history understand how right Lee was and still is.
You want an example of Protesting, Propaganda, and Pandering? How about the fact that most of these statues went up around the same time as civil rights for blacks were being enacted. What possible reason could that have been for?
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John Owens
William, I daresay nobody else on here has ever read that quote from Robert E. Lee. Maybe a few have, but most haven't. He was a truly great man, but you sort of prove my point. Most of the people crying for statue removal are functionally illiterate and know little about anything but are being manipulated by others to clamor for this or that. Most have not studied history. If they had, they would not have socialist leanings.
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Mary Therese Lemanek
Too many people are easily manipulated by rallying cries and a bumper sticker understanding of complex situations. People lack the ability or the willingness to ponder long, well researched journalism and as a result tend to rely on "news" that is less than accurate, prefering drama over truth
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John Owens
Yes, Ma'am. They love getting all lathered up over something today that they had never considered yesterday, and will likely forget tomorrow.
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katy wall
Most of the people clamoring to keep these statues live in states with the highest illiteracy rates. Not sure how your argument holds up.
These are the same people that claim the South was not fighting to preserve slavery despite the fact that you can read that exact reasoning in the writings of many of the leaders of the Confederacy and their Constitution.
Are you sure you're not functionally illiterate yourself John?
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John Owens
William, I daresay my literacy is AT LEAST on a par with yours, although there is no accurate way to measure such things. I find it fascinating and somewhat incongruous that you try to insult me like you just did, when I did nothing of the sort to you. What is funny, is that while your observation about illiteracy in the certain states may be true, the ones clamoring to eliminate the statues are the more illiterate ones, since they are so easily manipulated by speeches containing emotionally-loaded terminology. I didn't realize you are a hater. Sorry for even acknowledging your comments.
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biblical scholar
Speaking of functionally illiterate, how about addressing William's points instead of deflecting, John. Many of the statues that have been removed were erected to intimidate black people during the civil rights era. Lee himself was against memorialization of the civil war.
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John Owens
Ramona, I just pointed out that few knew of that quote. Why do you accuse me of deflecting? I didn't deflect or try to deflect anything. I wasn't looking for an argument in the first place, because I work for a living. I was just pointing out that the people clamoring for statue removal were not even thinking of it a year ago, and will have forgotten about it a year from now, and be clamoring about something else. They are led around by the nose from one emotional issue to another. It's just a little insane. I don't give a rat's arse about statues, in fact, I think them to be pagan in origin and prohibited by the Torah. I think we should mark graves, property boundaries, and perhaps historic spots where important events occurred. Anything beyond that is a violation of the commandment against graven images. The same people (perhaps including you) who are so anti-whatever right now will be anti-something-else a few months from now. That is all I am saying. I don't see why you or anyone finds that observation so objectionable, when it is, if not perfectly obvious to you, at least totally possible, whether you like it or not.
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Tom B
John...as to your 1:05 pm comments (sometimes it is hard to align)...i agree that the public loves the "cause for a day" mentality...if people want to try to make a difference, they should work directly on our local, State and federal representatives...giving vent does not accomplish much..and as I have said before, there seems to be a confusion between culture and history.....your quote from Robert E. Lee is informative...he was torn between taking the helm of the Union or Confederate armies; he finally felt constrained to accept the Confederate, because he was a Virginian...and his post-war 5 years as the head of a good college did not result in any black marks on his character...Tom
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John Owens
Just a small correction, Tom. It was William who shared that Robert E. Lee quote.
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Tom B
John...thank you...sometimes my computer seems to make it difficult to know to whom i am responding...it seems to me it would be better if the ULC had a Reply box after each comment...Tom
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barbara
The greatest distraction ever! There is slavery child slavery mining for computer chip materials and diamonds yet no one seems to care. They just continue to look at historical figures while buying the products produced by slaves. Where is the outcry or the boycott? Yes we need computer instruments but we cant demonize others for their choice of comfort over humanity if we only address things we are okay without.
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John Owens
Yes, Barbara. There are really important, tragic, monstrous things occurring, and so many yahoos just want to protest the stupidest things, as if they are some kind of crusaders, when they are just useful idiots to someone else.
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John Wilson
The statues should be moved to a museum or place where history is kept. These men/women(?) are part of our past and as such deserve to be retained properly in a proper place....not on the public square. The argument, unfortunately, has regressed to slavery and the narrative was nurtured by POTUS, quite intentionally. The difference between confederates and some of the other historical figures (like George Washington, for example) is every soldier of the confederacy was charged with treason. Obviously for their treasonous activities. Fortunately, Andrew Johnson (check this) issued a blanket pardon. Nothing was to be gained by holding confederate soldiers for treason, anyway. And another note.....these statues were created and put up in late 19th and early 20th century and the reason is still obscure but I think it had to do with some sort of racism.
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Tom B
Chuck...i generally agree with your statements...while i totally believe in equal opportunity for all, tearing down statues will be no more effective in creating equality then was affirmative action...if the world is going to continue to equate history with current culture, there will be no more history...we might as well proceed to the "Clockwork Orange" society...what many people do not understand is that it is not what you tear down, it is what you build up...you can not legislate morality or ethics; just as you can not command love and compassion...this world is inherently composed of faulty human beings (or else we would not be here)...if you erase all those with faults, you erase all history..i do not feel this is a constructive idea...Tom
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Terry
Good or bad, these markers are history. Everyone should know history to help the next history lessons be of good generations. The majority of the destroyers have NO idea what they are destroying or why. Just like the protesters, if you don't know why or care stay out of the fary. Those who do not remember history or attempt to wipe it from their memories are doomed to repeat it...
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. "George Santayana"
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katy wall
Statues do not teach history. They teach you to revere a particular person.
If you want to learn history you should pick up a book and stop aggrandizing the people that fought for slavery.
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kimm
The Aggression wasn't about slavery. But again, people are not taught that. Instead, most just takes what has been spoon fed by the North, without reading about what went on in reality, and what it was really all about, which was states rights. The slaver issue was already taking care of itself. Slave owners were releasing slaves in their wills or even before and those who didn't, most had family members who releases them. But people are not told that part of history. Meanwhile, after the Aggression, some in the North were still holding their slaves. Oh...Bet you didn't know that there was slavery in the North too! Another thing you're not told.
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Mary Therese Lemanek
Symbols draw people together at a particular time and place, around a shared belief or memory The problem arises when the symbol has different meanings to different people and acts to divide rather than unite. Not all symbols are equal in their offensiveness although some like a white hood or a swastika can never be redeemed. It takes more effort to situate statues and monuments within a context that addresses a larger meaning and even then, there is no guarantee that people will be willing to accept a story other than the one that suits their needs. Removal may need to be done but only after a serious conversation about the totality of the person or event that it depicts and the acknowledgement that as a society we have grown in spite of and sometimes because of these less than sterling participants.
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Doc
Well said Mary. I don't think the statues should be torn down, just moved to a museum where if I don't want to see them I don't have to. Keep your reminders of when people were slaves and you owned people. It's OK, I just don't want to see them. FYI, the south LOST the war and I love the United States of America!!!!
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Chad
Things just aren’t that cut and dry. People need something to believe in. God isn’t safe anymore, patriotism (USA for me) isn’t safe anymore. People start searching within - not for some “inner peace”, but in narcissism and entitlement. How it got that way is another story, and a long one at that. But that’s undoubtedly true of our present generation (not referring to age, in reference to who is living in these times). I personally think there’s something admirable in humility and modesty. I believe those traits are incredibly valuable, too. Individualism is a good thing, but so is comradery and community. And the more we tear away the foundations of the community we now belong to, the more we become isolated and divided. Being appreciative of where you are and how you got there is noble, sensible, and actually, pretty necessary to your own destiny. If people don’t wake up and stop letting others influence them into feeling offended, victimized, entitled, we’re going to have some pretty gigantic problems in the near future.
How do you feel about your own father? What about your mother? The argumentative ones around us will always have something to say, but when being purely honest, most of us hold our parents in high regard. Spoiler: your parents are not perfect. They’ve made mistakes, been unfair, and even presently hold views that conflict with your own or the greater status quo. Should you then deny your connection? Reject them and their significance to your creation? I would hope not.
The same should go for our historic leaders. It’s true that they existed in different times and it’s also true that none of us were there to witness the certain truth about them. For anyone in that time to have been remotely virtuous based on standards being defined today is ludicrous! I mean, think about it for just a moment - that’s ridiculously ludicrous. If none of them never even held slaves, I’m sure we could conjure up the homophobia, misogyny, pedophilia (age of consent was way different back then, too!), omnivorousity (for the vegans) that was so horrifically prevalent then. Hell, it wouldn’t be at all hard to find! People used to have children for the sake of helping hands on the farm. Can you just imagine that?! How sad! I’m sure those kids never saw anything resembling coddling. Imagine how long people’s work days were, and how dangerous. We’d compare that kind of labor to slavery today - and someone would get sued.
It’s apples and oranges people. And that’s just one of many reasonable arguments against this trend. Yeah, slavery is bad. So is a lot of other stuff. Thank God slavery isn’t presently condoned in our society! And it’s been a little while now. My best advice is to take a deep breath and relax. Take life in. Appreciate something, anything. Life is way too short to not realize, admit, and appreciate occasionally that you’re living in the best of all times.
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Nicholas Fusco
He that is without sin, cast the first stone . I don’t agree with what is happening with the USA.
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Carl Elfstrom
It sounds like your disagreement might be that first stone. If you don't like what's going on here you are welcome to leave. There are more than plenty immigrants who would love to take your place.
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Robert
too many immigrants to be frank, and what is going on i this country is just plain ignorant and stupid, to try and erase the past, like Stalin did, is stupid and you can cut that any old way you want, but it is
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John Maher
YEAH Rev. ROB like KEEP on CRAPIN in the SAME OLD RABBIT HOLE INSTEAD of BUILDING an OUTHOUSE with a TOILET SEAT, DUMP DOTAR ORANGUtRUMP
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Elan
Don't forget, We're Allowed to disagree. We're allowed to not agree with what is happening in America today. It's part of being American. Free Speech. I may not and do not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it.
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Christina Marquardo
I DO BELIEVE
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hsw
“And I don’t believe in freedom of speech...”
Your words.
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Christina Marquardo
I was ordianed in March 15 2015 And I don't believe in freedom of speech and also believe that these statues tell us what went on before changed our thinking I will just say this to the people who are over seeing the tearing down the statues should know this it's not ok to vandelize or to remove pieces of our history And by do this everyone involved should be held repo for their actions just like everyone else has done in the past and now So can som please. Tell me why they are allowed to do this Without any fine or jail I think that people have a right to feel however they want to but they should look back in our hi and see what each one means Like the Confederation statues is a symbol of the south and the Northern statue is not being removed when they both have something to do with the war hetwee the north and south SO WHY ShOULDN'T THE SOUTH BE ABLE TO FLY THEIR FLAY .... WHEN THE NORTH CAN FLY THEIR'S ... As far as I can see is it comes down to one thing And it's SOUTH VS. NORTH It is 2017 and everyone who is living and breathing have the same rights to protest something but when it comes to the southern flag. I say FLY IT HIGH And those who believe that they should not then I say to you. DON'T fly our flag
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Carl Elfstrom
Don't forget,the south lost the war. It all boils down to one thing: Don't be a sore loser. Also, don't support a lost cause ( one that was lost long before any of us were born ). We no longer have the north and the south, but the United States Of America.And if you don't believe in freedom of speech, why don't you practice what you preach. If the confederate flag is your flag then you are a man without a country.
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katy wall
So you not only DONT BELIEVE in freedom of speech, and you still believe the north and south have their own flags? There is only one flag in the USA.
This is a perfect example of why books are where history is learned and not statues.
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thomas
If you don't believe in freedom of speech then shut the hell up
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Carl Elfstrom
I hàv'nt seen or heard of any statues of witches being burned while tied to stakes but we hav'nt forgot about that. History is recorded in something called history books. And have you ever heard of the History channel.We don't need constant reminders of past evils so we won't engage in such activities again. By far most of us have something called a healthy moral conscience which tells us what is right and what is wrong. And by far most of us seem to think slavery is wrong so why should we have to look at statues of people who no longer reflect our beliefs and values. All you have to do is Google confederate war heroes to learn all about them.Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, and a lot of fools supported him. Do you think we ought to put a statue of him next to Robert E. Lee?
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Carl Elfstrom
Well James, it sure is taking you a long time to think of an argument against that. Talk about critical thinking? I can't see how anything written before my comment can be considered as such.
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James
I don't follow these leads far. Yet, how about we the people destroy everything you and your family has because you great great grand father killed someone! Yeah, not very reasonable at all. Seeing that he was only defending his family from thieves. No one can understand the situation they lived in because it's impossible. They still did great things despite it all. That is what we celebrate. The good, not the bad. See civilization at last!
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kimm
You may want to read a little bit about Lee before demonizing him. He was a better man than some in the Union....And I'm a born and raised (gag) northerner. And read a bit about the North and the Union. Pretty nasty bunch, but we're not given that part of history. I grew up in a big underground railroad area, and the blacks, both free and escaped slaves, were not exactly welcomed with opened arms as you would believe. In fact, those operating the railroad had to be just as secret in the North as they did in the South.
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Steve
We also look over the fact that the Civil War started out as an economic war. The North put tariffs on England for imported goods then England put tariffs on cotton imported from the South. The South wanted no part of the North's economic war with England so they split away. The whole issue of slavery was only brought up later when the war was becoming so unpopular in the North. There were many Northern slave owners. The Civil War killed more of our citizens than all the other wars we've been in put together. Talk about the love of money being the root of all evil.
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Barry
They were all products of their time and environment.However,those that have Lies associated with them should be changed.Such as Columbus.Proven fact That he didn't discover America.This should be stated.But the other atrocities that he committed were normal back then.But brutal by today's Standards.
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Catherine
Those statues should remain as a reminder that the past should never be repeated. Those statues should not be of men standing proud but of men ashamed and sorry for their part of our past full of the attrocities that they took part in. Remake them and have those men with heads down and tears in their eyes.
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James
Can you be charged with a crime if you did the deed before it was against the law? Ever hear of the ends justify the means? History is the past. If we remove it, we will forget it. Then we will soon repeat the same issues. Why not be adults about it and use critical thinking instead of acting like a bunch of animals.
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katy wall
History is not being removed. We do not learn history from statues but instead from books.
If you only know your history based on who has a statue then you are definitely doomed to repeat all the mistakes of those you revere.
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tom
We don't learn history based on statues. What a nutty argument. Since it is the winners who write the history in books we don't learn all that much from books either. What this movement, destroying our history is really doing is they are trying to win, so they can rewrite history into some socialist, communist, Orwellian fantasy so they can erect statues of their heroes: Stalin, Lenin, Marx, Pol Pot, etc.
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Victoria
This article is flawed with a concern for enslavers rather than those enslaved. Ask the Jews to forgive Hitler.
Christopher Columbus is a very different matter. Gatekeepers of racism and racial terrorism should self-reflect and ask themselves why the ancestors of those brutalized by one of the most dehumanizing systems of slavery in human history should make forgiveness a priority over historical admission, remedy and respect. Thisvis an immoral argument typically reserved for people of African descent.
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Beth
I appreciate the thought you put into your reply but don’t understand your last sentence. Would you expound a bit more?
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Rev. RJ Levesque, Jr.
WELL SAID James!
Since you have two replies that to me are nonsense allow me to put it another way. YOU CANNOT LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES OR BETTER YOURSELF BY ERASING HISTORY!!! Not to mention history is full of things we, as humans, did years ago that we would not do today. For example doctors used to recommend air cages mounted on the outside of apartment windows for babies to sit in for fresh air. Which is NUTS by today's standards and very dangerous. Or lets talk about how we used to be recommended to use radioactive medication, cosmetics, and lotions because it was believed to be good for us? Crazy huh? Yes, it was but that doesn't mean we erase it from history and call them horrible humans for doing so. THIS IS CALLED LEARNING PEOPLE! You have to stumble a few times before you can run... This age of the offended is the most stupid and idiotic of times we have faced yet. Not to mention, nobody ever talks about how nearly every country and culture in the world practiced slavery at some time in history. ALSO, Americans didn't raid countries and enslave people they PURCHASED them from their OWN countrymen, because it was how things worked back then.
Now our views are different and we feel slavery to be a horrible thing, which it is. Not to mention anyone who condemns a person for one mistake yet fails to recognize all the other GOOD THINGS they did for our country is narrow minded and obtuse in their thinking and let's all hope you NEVER are in politics because we have enough of those dumb dumbs among us already!
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Rev. Rene
We admonish the Taliban when they blow up the great Buddha, and other monuments of much historical significance, but it's OK to destroy what amounts to the history of this your own USA!!! Does nobody think past today??? We may not approve of slavery in the past of this country, or the civil war leaders, but IT IS THE PAST HISTORY OF THIS YOUR USA!!! And sad to see nobody can see past the screamers who wants it gone NOW!!! This is the actual history of the USA, tearing down statues does not change it, remembering the past is important so we all can prevent repeating the same mistakes. Does any one think banning the Southern flag or statues will reduce the pride people in the South have in their own history???
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John D. Partin
Rev. Rene, the statue of the great Buddha isn't equivalent at all to a statue of Robert E. Lee or Andrew Jackson or Jefferson Davis or other Confederate traitors to this country, who wanted to split America up and continue the owning and selling and degradation of black human beings or mistreatment of Native Americans!! No groups are gathering around statues of Buddha and shouting racist slogans and incitements to violence, as they did at Charlottesville about the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee!!! If blowing up a statue of Buddha is "no different than pulling down a statue of Robert E. Lee", then destroying a statue or picture of Jesus Christ would be no different than destroying a statue of Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin!! If statues of traitors to this country should remain standing, then why not also have statues of Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Benedict Arnold, George Lincoln Rockwell and other American Nazi Party leaders, Ku Klux Klan leaders, white supremacists, and all the rest of the rotten people in our history?!! If all people's history, good or bad, should go right on being commemorated, why did we blow up the swastika on top of the Reichstag at the end of W.W.II, instead of letting the German people go on commemorating their heritage?! Why did we pull down the statues of Saddam Hussein in Baghdad at the end of the Iraq War, instead of letting the Iraqi people go on commemorating their heritage?! Why didn't we follow suit in our own country with pulling down the statues of our own rotten people after those events, sooner than we did?!! I find your views on this matter to be totally inconsistent and self-contradictory. Yes, the Confederacy and slavery were part of our history, but only part of our bad history and should be left behind and we should move ahead! We can learn from history books about all these things, in order to avoid repeating the same mistakes, without having statues around to honor these rotten people!! People in the South can be proud of themselves and the advances that they have made, not in these crimes and dishonors from the past---as exemplified in the Confederate flag, which must go!! Accentuate the positive, latch on to the affirmative, eliminate the negative, and don't mess with Mr. In-Between!! Remember our good history, not our bad history!!!
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Joshua David James
Amen & Amen
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If we do not remember history, we are doomed to repeat it. With this modern society, people are using "being offended" to commit crimes. If you don't like something or find it offended, then you fight it legally. Take it court, write your congress people, protest, whatever, but this committing "righteous crimes" is just wrong.