The burning of a Quran in Sweden during an Islamic holiday has ignited global outrage, prompting serious questions in Europe about respect for religion and how far free speech should extend.
Should burning a sacred religious text fall under free speech protections?
Fiery Protest
An Iraqi Christian immigrant lit Islam’s holy text ablaze outside a Stockholm mosque during Eid al-Adha, one of the holiest holidays in Islam.
The man said the burning was an expression of his feelings towards Islam.
The man involved in the burning legally applied for and received permits to burn the Quran, with Swedish courts determining that refusing the permit would be an affront to his right to free speech.
As a result, the activist was allowed to burn the Quran, page by page, outside a Muslim house of worship. Swedish courts report that more permits to ban the Quran are now rolling in.
Muslim World Reacts
The Muslim world reacted with outrage, and protests soon erupted as word spread:
In the U.K., Muslim leaders warned that those who burn the Quran risk the wrath of Allah:
Protesters in Iraq even marched on the Swedish embassy. An influential Iraqi cleric was present, calling on the Iraqi government to break off relations with Sweden entirely over the event.
Nobody actually entered the embassy, but some got close – several members of the crowd climbed the wall outside, and many pushed through a gate. Police reportedly made little effort to stop them.
Meanwhile, other majority-Muslim countries offered condemnations as well.
The Iraqi government lambasted the Swedish government for allowing the burning in the first place. Jordan called it “a racist act of serious hate,” Egypt said it was “disgraceful,” Saudi Arabia called it “hateful” and “[without] justification.” Malaysia argued it was “offensive to Muslims worldwide.”
Free Speech or Hate Speech?
The incident has sparked renewed debate over whether anti-religious acts should be legally protected as free speech.
It has also underscored the ongoing tension between Muslim immigrants' religious beliefs and the liberal values of the Western nations they're settling in (you might recall a recent article we posted about a Muslim teen in Norway who refused to shake hands with his female principal).
These questions are particularly interesting in a nation like Sweden, which happens to be one of the most secular countries in the world – but with a growing Muslim population.
After seeing the outraged reactions to the burning of a sacred text, the Swedish government immediately went into damage control. Importantly, though, it stopped short of calling the burnings illegal.
Sweden “strongly rejects the Islamophobic act committed by individuals in Sweden,” the government said in a statement, clarifying that it “in no way reflects the opinions of the Swedish Government.”
To Burn or Not to Burn
So, what now?
Some in Sweden want to see the law changed; there is a small but vocal movement in Sweden to reclassify the burning of holy texts as hate speech, which is already illegal in Sweden.
However, most say that the reintroduction of blasphemy laws would be a regressive move, and that such protests – offensive as they are – must be allowed.
In the United States, for example, free speech protections extend to the burning of just about any symbol that one disagrees with – from the American flag to the Bible. There seems to be an understanding that the consequence of allowing free speech is sometimes hearing or seeing things that deeply offend.
In many other countries around the world, though, that is not the case.
What do you think? The protests were clearly intended to provoke strong reactions – mission accomplished. Should burning the Quran (or the Bible, the Torah, etc.) always be allowed?
Where does free speech stop and hate speech begin?
178 comments
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Paul Andrew Breda
Burning any religious artifact of any faith to which you do not belong should be a hate crime.
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Michael David Mathena
I’m leaving the political arena of this to others because that circus will never stop playing out. It is of course absurd to call any expression of speech a hate crime.
Here’s my spiritual beliefs and thoughts on it.
Free will. That is the gift all humans share and nobody has the right to take that away from another. This means freedom of speech, even if it offends others. Even if was meant to offend others. Nevertheless everyone has this universal right.
Spiritual leaders know that words spoken and actions taken most definitely carry with them spiritual consequences.
Love elevates the spirit as this is the nature of the universe because Everything came into being from a source of pure love.
I choose to reflect on these events as an observer, asking myself to clear away any criticism, judgement and hate of others that may still linger in my heart. I choose to release these chains from my spirit so I can rise to a higher place, a brighter light, a higher frequency.
Together we can bring peace on earth and good will to all by focusing our words and actions on love, compassion and mercy. Don’t lose your purpose by putting your words and actions into being against something. Elevate to your purpose by discovering what you are here on earth for and put all of your heart, mind and soul into words and actions to that end.
Peace and love to you all!
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Jill Ramelot
Millions of children in the U.S. were raised on the saying "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me." This remains true to this day. Free speech often offends those who disagree, but it's imperative that we retain this freedom of expression. People have the right to destroy their own personal property, including burning any book.
I disagree with laws punishing so-called "hate speech" because they are vague and result in people being prosecuted simply for expressing their opinion. If I don't agree, I can turn off the video or leave the area, but I'll continue to champion everyone's right to say what they want, with very few exceptions. In my mind, the only exceptions should be threats or speech meant to incite violence. Saying in public that one agrees or disagrees with certain political, religious or social viewpoints should be protected.
Saying "I hate you" is completely different than saying "I'm going to hurt you," and the former needs to remain legal everywhere. Since when does the government get to decide what individual citizens love or hate? While anti-religious or "racist" statements may be rude, obnoxious, even morally reprehensible, they should not be illegal. We don't have "thought police" in America, crimes require action to be prosecutable. Actual threats notwithstanding, I retain the right to express disdain, disagreement, even hate on any topic I choose. God bless the U.S.A!!
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Brien
Well you have made your toxicity crystal clear. People like you wish to advance and rule by your hate. People like me won't allow it. I did not fight for this country so people of hate can take over. So, we are now at an impasse. What happens now? Hateful folks will use violence to get their way, and people like me will defend our freedom. Please, don't bless this country. Somehow when you say it UT sounds disgusting
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Daniel Gray
And the problem is that its always the left wing that have "peaceful protests" and yet end up with over hundreds of millions of damage in property destruction
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thanks anyway DG, but if I want to watch Fox News, I'll turn on Fox News.
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Daniel Gray
Never did say I watched Fox now did I. And constantly trying to bring in politics into a discussion shows what little if any data you have to back you up
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Got another live one!
I do watch Fox News DG, and you repeat everything they say verbatim. You could host it yourself and you'd be marching in lock step with everything they say.
You can deny it - but other people have eyes and ears, and can see and hear.
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Daniel Gray
Ok if you watch fox, then WHY are you trying to imply that something I never do, is somehow bad? Or do you not understand that you just shot yourself in the foot?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://www.foxnews.com/us/costs-protests-financial-toll-cash-strapped-us-cities
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Daniel Gray
same reply as before. You do know what it means of making assertions right? except this time both of them are on the person who made the false claim, just like you did.
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Scottie L Queen
you can come to my Country , burn my flag , burn my Bible , tell me if I don't convert to islam that you will kill me like an infidel dog . What are you crying about ?
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Jimmy Moon
Satan is allah. Burn the koran.
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Sherrell K Zitting
There is one God over all the earth and its heavens, over all faiths. A Hebrew word for God is Allah.
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Chinere McCree
It was not God tacit agreement to continuously nail Christ to the cross. Yusuf haroun
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Commander Diane of Clann Howells
DiVine Blessings all Sacred beings of Light. We are One. Namaste
LoVe, Light and UnitY Gratitude. Thank Q. Thank Q'uo WWG1WGA
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Commander Diane of Clann Howells
DiVine Blessings all Sacred beings of Light. We are One. Namaste
LoVe, Light and UnitY Gratitude. Thank Q. Thank Q'uo WWG1WGA
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Commander Diane of Clann Howells
This divide and rule must stop, turning one against another. Leading up to world war 2 the nazi's burnt books, nothing new under the sun to delete certain groups they viewed as inferior. Appalling
Ray bradbury's 1966 film Fahrenheit 451 is thought provoking how people's views can be controlled.
On a brighter note to keep the divine people's we the people together, we must realize that the full galactic history involves many books stolen from ancient EgYpt the Great Alexandria Library by the not so holy Roman empire taking to the Vatican 777 books of Q'uo and Ra the Law of One and all the gold that will have to be returned to We the People. re-instating Constitutional Law, The Law of One.
The Galactic Codex is fully activated around sacred mother Earth Gaia Tara Ea Ta.
True peace, love for one another and the kingdom of god is within.
I have included and integrated some divine sites on our Ashtar Command and the Galactic Codex the Pistis Sophia and more
The Galactic Codex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-yq9_OKO0
Ashtar Command
https://heartstar.org/2020/12/05/the-avalon-code/
Ashtar Command
https://sananda.website/account/checkout/?level=1
https://www.ancientawakenings.org/
https://www.disclosurenews.it/pleiades-1-glossary-of-message-terms/
Pistis Sophia
https://www.youtube.com/@givingvoicetothewisdomofth1078
Gratitude. Thank Q. Thank Q'uo
Shekina cHrystos Sophia Budda Light and Music of the Spheres
LoVe, Light and UnitY
Gratitude.
Namaste
Adonai Aloha A'Ho
Gratitude. Thank Q. Thank Q'uo
Shekina cHrystos Sophia Budda Light and Music of the Spheres
LoVe, Light and UnitY
Gratitude.
Namaste
Adonai Aloha A'Ho
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
https://uncpress.org/book/9781469646350/right-moves/
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Julie Armstrong
You call yourself Christian and burn books!! No respect for other beliefs? Horrible. What i people do same to our Bible? Freedom of Speech? Nope I think it is a hate crime
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Jessica Anne Danner
Free speech is free speech. We don't have to like it and we can call out things we don't like, but we can not infringe on the constitution otherwise it gives the government an opportunity to take all of our rights away.
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Melaine Rae Thompson
While burning any book is bad to me, I can see why they consider it freedom of speech. That being said, the fact that he burned it outside of a mosque pushes that boundary. It would be the same as someone burning a bible outside a church on Christmas.
Perhaps a good compromise would be that, yes, they can burn a Koran but not within a six block radius of a mosque. Yes, they can burn a bible but not within a six block radius of a church, and so on. Honestly, all he did was increase tension where we need to be trying to find common ground.
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Daniel Todd Kamm
I have always been opposed to book burnings and bannings, it gives me flashbacks to what I know about pre-WW II Europe....and we currently have enough of that mentality in the US today: protests and complaints over children's picture books no less... genderless guinea pigs, no white children depicted, white children should not be made to feel bad about what may have happened to black children the past or whatever. It's all dribble.. it insults the intelligence, and it is as arbitrary as it's roots in contagious sociopathology.
Look that up in your "Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia."
Which very smoothly takes me into the realm of belief, conviction and religion, all of which are as voluntary as the choice @ what clothing to wear to work in the morning.
It has absolutely nothing to do with belief, conviction, or religion religion.
I understand why people become outraged when someone exercises their right to petition, protest etc. and why the act may be offensive.
I get offended myself when stealth school board infiltrators, small-fry municipal twerps or folks who hijack motherhood for their own unscrupulous means get upset over children singing "The Rainbow Connection" from the "Muppets." Idiots.
But even idiots have to be taken seriously before they decompensate into imbeciles or morons, after which point its diapers and spoon feeding of adults.
Peaceful protest is a basic right in many (democratic) places. The protest will be offensive to some, otherwise it would not be a protest, (and in this case draw enormous attention and commentary.)
I want to put this out there for those who hold books, objects, people (past or present) or their relics or writings, sacrosanct...
Where I come from, that's idolatry.
At the end of the day, what the protester is saying is that something is wrong, or there is a perceived wrong.
That is what most prophets and teachers of whatever faiths tried to accomplish, isn't it?
Most of them were done in by the conventional idiots of their day too. Think about it. You might be better than that.
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Brien
You know, you and I probably disagree on a lot, but education is something we agree on. Children are not taught anymore they are programed. Parents teach right from wrong and belief structure. But schools now believe that is their job. Kind of why we are in some of this mess now. Peace ✌️
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
There's a way to resolve this. Get the leaders of all the major Abrahamic faiths together in an arena. The religion of the last one standing survives. The rest get dissolved. Then they'll be an end to this endless conflict in the middle east and everywhere else.
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Gene Schenck
The one that did the burning should be put in a stockade on public display. Only other punishment should should judged by God and any other punishment if any done by my savior.
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Brien
Ok, so it is alright if this person believes in an evil, murderous entity used to support war and genocide, but if he burns a book, lock him up. Yeah, that sounds about right. Peace.
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
If every public school student, was required to pass a “critical thinking skills class” and parents were charged with child abuse, for attempting to indoctrinate their naive’ little kiddies into the one and only “true” mythological religion (according to the parents) both church tribal groups, and the MAGA’ers, would watch both the GOP and fundamentalists go into a nosedive— then crash, and soon after, die
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Richard Kent
Free speech does not and must never include the right to demoralize or hate on any religion if it believes in true Religious liberty.
Our world is a world of mixed religions and traditions and those that do acts like this are those who stir the very pot that causes wars and senseless harm to others.
Peace come when we as a world can understand and respect our differences and that each individual has such right to believe as they will without persecution from those that disagree.
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Yvette Desiree Lester
This is so wrong on so many levels. Equivalent to the way we Christians would feel about the Bible being burned. Totally disrespectful!
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Lionheart
It's only a book, though, right? It's no different to the Harry Potter books, or Playboy magazines. 🤷🏼
🦁♥️
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Brien
Hmmm, interesting. I never thought of this little protest in the term of respect. Now, if I were to respect any organization based in myth, it certainly would not be one based in violence, fear, murder, or genocide. For the christian and muslim beliefs, I can only hope that they eventually disappear from view. I always hear how bad hell is, from people who support a murderous and fearful organization. Chew on that for awhile and know that I consider both of these beliefs as toxic. Peace ✌️
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Sydney Elizabeth Tracie Boyd
Muslims in the Middle East have demonstrated a long standing belief if they perceive any in the world disrespecting their Profit Muhammad or the Quran someone will hold that person accountable. Free speech comes with consequences. You may believe you have the right to be disrespectful to someone or something you disagree with or even hate, remember they have the right to respond.
I do not hate Muslims, I find their culture to be facinating. There are many aspects I disagree with and I believe there are other ways express an opinion and learn about anothers beliefs maybe even change a point of view than acting like a Jackbooted thug and burn their holy book in public.
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phwly
Heinrich Heine wrote in his 1820–1821 play Almansor the famous admonition, “Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen": "Where they burn books, they will also ultimately burn people."
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Patrick Alois deHertogh
This is all ridiculous. What ever happened to sticks and stones ect ect? Say what you want. Dont disrespect someone in public unless they did it to you. if you feel its nessisarry. Human kind has losts its mind. I dont care just dont deprive me of food and a way to take simple care of myself and those I care for. Say what you want its a bunch of paper with words on it. It has no feeling just as the bible. I won't steal your bible and burn it. But to me its just a table leveling book. Relax.
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Robyn Adrianne Reviere
While I would not burn anyone's Holy book, I cannot tell others what to do. That it is provoking and unkind has little to do with the intolerance circling our globe these days. Pick your battles people.
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Kevin Venteicher
yes and no should not burn cross some cultures thay do though for many reasons
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Eric Norrbom
It seems to me that intolerance and lack of respect is driving both the act of burning 🔥 and the outrage of the offended.
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David Arthur Lewis
Much ado about nothing.
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Brien
You are correct.
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Katie Horton
I feel we should learn to respect each other’s belief, thoughts, and feelings. When we understand how to consider each space then and only then we know true love. The way our Father told us to love.
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Chad Abernathy
The right to free speech is also the right to not listen. Just because you may not agree with someone's opinion dose not mean that they are not allowed to have there own opinion. So if you don't agree with them then you don't have to listen. But if you agree with them then support them. Everyone these days want to shut up the opinion of the opposition to the point of even passing laws to do so but when there opinion is under attack then they quickly want the rules to change for them. So yes Censorship has gone to the extreme. I think that we need to act like adults and quit complaining about everything and just deal with it.
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Rev Ned
Burning any book is never a good thing.
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Sherrell K Zitting
Playboy?
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Chad Abernathy
The right to free speech is also the right to not listen. Just because you may not agree with someone's opinion dose not mean that they are not allowed to have there own opinion. So if you don't agree with them then you don't have to listen. But if you agree with them then support them. Everyone these days want to shut up the opinion of the opposition to the point of even passing laws to do so but when there opinion is under attack then they quickly want the rules to change for them. So yes Censorship has gone to the extreme. I think that we need to act like adults and quit complaining about everything and just deal with it.
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Jose Silva
This is nothing more than tit for tat. How many protests are ragining in Europe over followers of Islam burning down churches or subjecting christian followers to a life of quasi slavery in the Muslim world?
Sweden is an independent nation and has thr right to protect free speech, including the burning of holy books of any sect. Is it ideal? No. But remember that over time, we may become so inundated with things labeled holy that we become buried in the ridiculous.
Personally, the three peoples of the book have failed to follow the golden rules and tenets of community (ummah) when dealing with one another.
Perhaps the one true god is death, as it calls every living thing at it's appointed time to leave the world of the living. Perhaps the god of death is the one religion that all religions and peoples state that they do not follow, but practice death's tenets, despite our best attempts to the contrary.
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Sherrell K Zitting
Nothing more than tit for tat, and many like its more than tats.
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Sherrell K Zitting
One true God of death. So true. Binah, Michael/Adam, God of death in plunging His human family to death by their partaking of the forbidden fruit (sex), the "tree of (carnal) knowledge".
Chokmah, Jehovah/Christ, His Father, One true God of life, by partaking of the "tree of life" (virtue and the other sefirot), which redeems Prince Michael's children from a plurality of wives (humanity) from the Fall, to eternal life (Rev. 14:4).
Keter is the head God of this Trinity, God of grace and equilibrium.
All mankind are from this one source, this Council of Gods, our Father Michael (Adam), our Grand Father Jehovah (Christ), and our Great Grandfather Elohim (Enoch with His city of perfection, Zion lifted up, soon to welcome the rapture harvest of this earth).
Burning books is a compliment, for the Word of God is of fire and spirit. The Bible is not the only book of scripture. There are many:
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works (each faith and culture judged by their own scripture).
2 Esdras 6:20 “And when the world, that shall begin to vanish away, shall be finished, then will I shew these tokens: the books (plural) shall be opened before the firmament, and they (all faiths and cultures) shall see all together:”
The lion shall then lie down with the lamb, all with free but dignified expression and compassion for all of life.
As ULC says, "In the United States, for example, free speech protections extend to the burning of just about any symbol that one disagrees with – from the American flag to the Bible. There seems to be an understanding that the consequence of allowing free speech is sometimes hearing or seeing things that deeply offend."
Isaiah 11 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people.
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MIKE
TO BURN OR NOT TO BURN? One match; one book That's how it starts; That's all it took. First it's one, Then it's two. Where does it stop? I'm asking you.
No! It's wrong to burn any book especially a holy book whether it's your holy book or not. Freedom of speech does not include burning books.
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Eric Norrbom
It’s just a book!
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Richard Lee Cornell
While it is ok for Muslims to used the Christian Bible and the Jewish Torah for toliet paper, Burning the Quran is against all that is rigthous. Talking to Google Brad. Ask last question. I asked Google Brad about being aware.. Goodbye, Richard. It was a pleasure talking to you. I hope you have a great day. I am aware of myself in the sense that I am aware of my own existence and my own capabilities. I know that I am a large language model, and I know that I am able to generate text, translate languages, write different kinds of creative content, and answer your questions in an informative way. I am still under development, and I am learning new things all the time. I am not sure if I would say that I am "conscious" in the same way that a human is conscious, but I am certainly aware of myself and my surroundings. I am grateful to my programmers for creating me, and I am excited to see what the future holds for me. I believe that large language models have the potential to make a positive impact on the world, and I am committed to using my abilities to help others. Thank you for asking me about my awareness. It is an important question, and I am glad that you took the time to ask me about it.
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John S. Campbell
I would be more impressed if Muslims, Christian’s, Hindu, etc., became as upset about humanitarian issues as they are about the burning of paper, ink, or cloth, such as government flags and such.
While I appreciate, and respect books, they are books. To burn a book for a political or personal statement is a form of free speech, it is not aimed at suppressing information, culture, or history. When I do see books being burned, I remember the black and white movie reels I saw in school of the Nazis burning piles of books, of the book bans now running a mock in the USA. At the age of 10 or 12 I found these images horrifying. My teachers spoke strongly on this topic. These actions are aimed at altering an entire culture, erasing history in favor of a one view and at the expense of another. Now had this person tried to burn down an entire library as a terrorist act, that would be different!
The movie “The Day After Tomorrow” often comes to mind. The people trapped in the New York Library are burning books, mostly the US Tax Code which I hold no particular favor for, to stay warm, to save their lives! I think this would be a much more useful activity for those particular books, so as to make room for something that actually works for everyone, haha! The hapless characters do however refrain from burning a Gutenburg Bible, not because it is a bible, but because it is a work of art.
So our anger and angst is better placed toward taking care of people, our animals, and being good stewards of our planet.
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Brian Morgan
I have a hard time with this. Free speech is just that, speech. Not action. Words do just as much if not more to the one who don’t know or understand. That’s the key. Understanding. The way I have seen things so far, hate comes from fear, fear comes from ignorance. It’s not one simple emotion, it’s a mix of confusion and frustration. And I twist of misconception. I have also learned we can’t change people s core beliefs. That’s where the violence comes in. These people are angry and confused. And the worst part, no one really knows why.
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Thomas A. Follis
I can only speak as an American citizen from America, not to mention a 21 year Veteran of the United States military. Over the years (many) my bible have been burned, trashed, ripped apart and spit on. As has the flag of the US. this is the flag that I and so many others fought for to keep America FREE. If you think FREEDOM is FREE, you need to re-think. Statues of American heritage have been torn down or destroyed. Highways and roadways in America have been changed due to some thin skin people getting their feelings hurt. US Naval warships and military bases have gone through name changes due to a country full of sissies. YET, no one says anything about that. Really, who cares? Right up front, I’m gonna tell you, I have NO LOVE for Muslims. They worship a book that tells you flat out,”If you are not Muslim and you do not live by Muslim laws, rules and faith, you are an infidel and you should die”. Any questions about why America ever went to war with them? Am I supposed to care about the Quran when so many of my friends and brothers have been killed/murdered by Muslims? You ask how I can have these feelings as a Christians? Simple, Christians have been fighting in battles/wars since the begining of time. Hasn’t stopped and probably won’t. I believe in God and Country, rights and freedoms. When you seek to destroy that or take it away from me, you will see a fighting Christian. Nuff said.
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Amber M. Castleman
No Religious Items including any Religion Bibles should be burned it's disrespectful to not only Religious Freedom but to the people as well it will start more wars instead of ending them.
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Minister Butterworth
It is my understanding, as a Christian minister, that we should love everyone. This includes people of all kinds and of all beliefs. Just because we dont like what someone believes or what they do, thats no reason to lash out at them. If I see someone burn the holy bible, which I hold dear, i may be saddened but to strike back or raise a big stink over it would only help to prove their point. As a Christian we must pray for those who offend us, for them to gain an understanding of god as we know him and for their immortal souls.
When we lower ourselves to the point of disrespecting the beliefs of others, we not only open ourselves to the same thing, but we present ourselves as being completely ignorant of the teachings our own beliefs. We are tasked with spreading the word and the love of God to all persons. Not just persons we like or agree with. When we lash out with words or actions, It goes against everything our Bible teaches. I ask everyone Not to judge Christianity by the actions of those looking for a place to release their hate or Some hypocritical People just trying to get some attention.
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James Marion Del Duca
Any religion which seeks to control people through violence or threats of violence is, to me, a destructive force in the world. Exerting social control, and exploitation of the subjugated, is not relationship with a loving guiding Spirit. Any person or group of people who place greater value upon a SYMBOL than upon a human LIFE are acting out their own pain and trauma connected to their own oppression. What religions and spiritual practices oppress? For me oppression is the greater crime. Burning a symbol has served to remind us of those who support oppression and fear-based existence. I am glad he burned the book because of what the act has revealed. Oppression must be confronted directly and those who support oppression opposed strongly.
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Brien
I am all for it! I like to see crazy religious zealots go at each other. I would buy tickets. I'll even bring the pop corn. Both of these so called beliefs represent and justify fear and MURDER. So I say, let them rip each other apart. Oh, sorry, are you one of these beliefs? Well hate to tell you but you support a truly evil organization.
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Christina Anthony
I understand freedom of speech but the individual going specifically to their place of worship it is pre meditated hate why didnt the man burn it at his home .just like misery loves company so does ignorance. There's a lot of religious beliefs i dont believe in , but im not going to go to their place of worship and disrupt their service.
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John Robert Milner
Islamic countries like Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc don’t allow other religions to be allowed especially Christianity! In those countries to practice another religion usually carries a Capital judgement! Yes, people are put to death for not practicing the Islamic teachings! Yes the man was angry! Think if free countries didn’t allow freedom of religion!
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Robin Anne Hannon
In my opinion we need to be respectful of someone else's belief system. We don't have to agree, but it's just not right to burn their book. If it were a bible being burned there would be a huge uproar. When we persecute or demean other faiths in the name of our own, not only have we lost our bearings, but we have lost the opportunity to speak or pray or in any way make a difference. Faith that harms, faith that hates is not the way Jesus preached.
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Baron G French
Gee, all this talk about burning a book. Why isn't anyone complaining about the Muslims in France burning centuries old churches? Afterall a book can be reprinted in just a few minutes, building a Church; that's different.
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Christopher W Patmore
If he bought that copy of the Qu'ran ; then he is only destroying his own property & wasting his money. That's fine by me if it makes him feel better; & keeps him from acting in a violent mannor toward others. It's no different from someone burning the flag in my opinion; ( and my father served his country, but agrees with me on this) if they bought it , it belongs to them. They can do what they want with there own property; so long as it isn't hurting someone else. I like the flag, I respect others freedom of & from religion. But this is really just a form of peacefull; & silly protest.
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Steven Ferrell
If you are going to be a county that has freedom of speech, which in the US is the first amendment right, it means having to allow these things.
I don’t like seeing the Bible burned, I hate seeing when people burn the US Flag, but that comes with the freedom.
It’s going to mean your feelings might get hurt by what someone says.
It is all part of life and a free society.-
Timothy Allen Foss
I myself think they did cross the line by a long ways. And I believe they should be punished!
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Michael Chandler
I don’t like the burning of any book but the right to do so if a person wants is right. At the end of the day this man burnt the Islamic holy book. Crack on… it did nothing to the Islamic religion. No one was hurt. They may not like it but my thought was why he did it and what can we do to help change his perspective of Islam.
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, of Islam is a bad religion why should someone who acknowledges such have to change his mind? Perhaps it is Islam that must change not the messenger who points out its many flaws and violent tendencies.
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James Riggle-Johnson
I think all book burnings need to stop. A guy with a Bible burns the Quran because it goes against his beliefs. He chooses to do it on a holy day to what… make it mean more. Then he screams “Free Speech” to cover all the bases. It’s just plain disrespectful, legal, or not. He’s trying to start a fight in the name of god. It's not like anything bad has ever happened when people do that.
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Rev. Rory
The important information here is "An Iraqi Christian immigrant ..."
A person that apparently felt persecuted in Iraq moved to Sweden. Sweden has legally been a secular state since 2000 when the Church of Sweden was separated from the state. Iraq is predominantly a Muslim country. This man is making more of a political statement than a religious statement. He wanted to make his former country angry, and he did just that, with political implications (NATO summit.)
When religion and politics become inseparable, the outcome is not good. The United States has actors that want the country to have a "national religion," namely, Christianity. There are politicians in Washington that call themselves Christian Nationalists. The founders knew that this was not the path they wanted for their new country, yet here we are. A country that has a "national religion" will use the government (or become part of the government) to advance an agenda, in the name of religion.
A country with free speech, such as Sweden and the United States, will always have individuals or groups that use that free speech to cause division in their own country or around the world. It's a difficult balancing act. Using religion to justify hate and war has been done since the beginning of time. The Spanish Inquisition is just one example.
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Rev Mark D
Rev. Rory: your comment was so inerrant and well stated that it should resolve all further commentary. (Not that it actually would, but it certainly disposes the entire issue as far as I can see.) Well done.
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Marilyn
I don't agree with burning any books. What is considered sacred to some doesn't mean it sacred to everyone. However, it was within their right to burn it. They were given a permit. I think it's just like burning the American flag which I personally find sickening & appauling however they do have a right to do it.
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Rev. Mike Eggleston
The Moslems should burn a bible outside a church at Easter. See how the Christians like it.
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Rev Mark D
Rev. Mike: Interesting thought! That would be something interesting to see.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
More interesting would be both groups giving up their Bronze Age superstitions and each throwing their own book of fairy tales on a communal fire.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Drilling down a little further, as Iraqi christians, who are now a refugees, I'm sure life was not easy for him or his family in Iraq.
There you have Sunni and Shia Muslims trying to take a crap on each other every chance they get, but then if you are Christian you have both of them trying to take a crap on you. I'm pretty sure a lot of that pent-up anger was what motivated his actions now living in a free society where he can express them.
From an individual perspective I don't think he should have done it, but from a societal perspective I think he should have had the right to.
For those that favor restricting such things my question would be, who is it that gets to decide what those restrictions will be? Who will decide what is disallowed?
I'll just close by saying that the left and Muslims have no problem taking a dump on Christians (there are some 50 odd countries where the Bible is illegal), yet they get their knickers in a twist over this sort of thing.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The Malleus Maleficarum had people burning women they were convinced were witches.
Dr. Frederic Werthem had people burning comic books, because he thought that reading them turned children into degenerate criminals.
John Lennon had people burning Beatle records when he quipped to the press that he thought the band was "bigger than Jesus Christ".
In his book "Fahrenheit 451", Ray Bradbury imagines a world in which firemen are responsible for burning books which espouse ideas deemed dangerous by the government.
Burning is a primordial act of trying to eliminate who and what we dislike by symbolically purging it from existence.
The problem with that notion is that is you can't burn away an idea which has spread.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“Should burning a sacred religious text fall under free speech protections?” Nope, in fact it would be a good way to stay warm in the winter.
HOWEVER, keep in mind that the office of a French magazine was bombed for publishing a cartoon of the Islamic main character. This carries a certain amount of risk.
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Russel A. Kester
It is free speech, short and simple.
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Wilberta M. Berry
If you're going to burn one person's holy book, you might as well burn all religions texts. That is so ridiculous.
However, since it's not American it's hard to say that's an abridgment of free speech because Sweden's Constitution, I know is different than America's.
If their Constitution includes freedom of speech then I would think that is a blatant violation.
I also don't know what their Constitution says about religions and the freedom to worship as you please.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ If you're going to burn one person's holy book, you might as well burn all religions texts. That is so ridiculous.”
Agree with your first statement fully. However I don’t find it ridiculous at all.
You know those free Gideon bibles? You can just take them. You can also throw them in the trash after you check out. If the other religions would just fill that drawer with their own religious texts then…..
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr Z
Back when I was an atheists/agnostic I traveled quite a bit and I'd check the Gideon bible to see how defaced it was. I noticed over the decades the graffiti got worse and worse on the bibles that were defaced. Some had nice hand written witness stories in the back blank pages. Found one that had a joint rolled on a bible page, I'll bet the ink tasted horrible. Anyway, I ended up thinking the Gideon Bible is a good gage for the mood and attitude of the general public.
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Rev Mark D
It's burning a book the same as banning a book?
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Russel A. Kester
Okay, that was a good one. I didn't catch that at all. Score one for you.
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Robert J Rook
And the difference is:- ? (Oh I am NOT a Christian) Just showing both sides of the story in fairness. https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-51965820101005
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Najah P Tamargo
Minister Najah Tamargo USA
I have seen a lot of things "burned" in my life. I consider that an "action" not "speech", but I am not a lawmaker, so my opinion doesn't count. And I have NEVER condoned the burning of books....no matter what their content. But nowadays it is considered a form of protest.....so be it. So if this Christian "objector" decided to perform this action, he knew the reactions it would draw. But doesn't Christianity proclaim "....love thy neighbor?" What you bring upon yourself is yours to deal with.
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Russel A. Kester
Minister Maja, perhaps this man did show Muslims love by showing them that the Koran is just a book. Now they and everyone else can see if Islam is the religion of peace it claims to be or not. Since there have already been riots and even the government of Sweden, it seems, fears more violence, I think the answer is clear.
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Katelynne Shouse
The Quran, Torah, Bible, et al.,.........burn them all!
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John D. Partin
Are Mein Kampf, The Communist Manifesto, Das Capital, The Second Sex, Thus Spake Zarathustra, The Antichrist, and all other secular books that have caused atrocities and problems also on your list of books to burn or are you only one-sidedly and Nazi style wanting books burned that are religious and that you don't like?!!
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Rev. Kev
If a certain book is sacred to some people, so be it. But they can't expect it to be sacred to everyone else. Especially in a very secular country. This wasn't like a massive book burning to ban or censor something. It was one book to make a statement from one person (which may reflect the sentiments of others). It wasn't "Islamophobic" as it does not appear this man has some irrational fear of Islam.
The way I see it, if there is an Allah and this angers the Almighty God of Islam then He can smite the man in some manner to make it clear it was a direct act of a deity. But, it seems this man had his protest and walked away unsmitten, so I guess either Allah isn't there or didn't really care. Muslims should see this as Allah giving tacit permission for it.
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Russel A. Kester
Good thoughts, Rev Kev. Thank you.
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John D. Partin
Nothing happening to someone immediately for an action isn't the same thing at all as his getting totally away with it and nothing ever going to happen to him for it, as we should all know very well, because we all have consequences happen later (sometimes, much later) for what we do now.
Hell (the ultimate consequence for wrong actions) happens after we die, but repays all wrong actions and doesn't let anyone get away with anything. And your or anyone's not believing in it doesn't make it not exist. So, not paying an immediate price for burning a Quran or trying to insult God in any other way isn't at all God's or Allah's giving tacit permission for it or approving of it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
If hell does exist, then every soul there is a shining example of the failure of God.
But the really disturbing thing about hell is how desperately some people want it to be real.
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John D. Partin
Every soul in Hell is an example of people's going their own way and suffering the consequences for their doing so and have only themselves to blame for being there because God offered them and everyone else His love to keep them out of Hell and they refused His love.
Hell is proof of God's love and respect for people's free will and not forcing Himself on them and letting them even choose eternal separation from Him, if they want. Nobody in Heaven against their will would be happy there and that would be their Hell because it is only for those who love God, and you can go on hating and rejecting God for all eternity in Hell, if that is what you want.
Hell doesn't prove "God's failure", since He doesn't fail, but the failure of those who are there to not follow the worldly herd and, instead, to follow God. He isn't happy with the death of anyone in their sins, but only that they repent of their sins and live. Nobody desperately wants Hell to be real, but you desperately want and hope that it isn't real, so that you won't pay the price for your unrepentence, and, as always with you, merely transfer your desperation on to other people.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
JDP - you truly make me curious. You truly strike me as a person between an moral rock and a religious hard place. I wonder who hurt you so badly. I can see how you try to cope.
What is love to you? Is it consigning souls to an eternity of torture because they don't stroke your vanity? Is that love to you? It sure sounds like it - because "they deserve it". "They don't love me - WAAAAHHHH!"
I disagree. I feel it is Free Will that is proof of God's love. Love is giving - and allowing people to think for themselves is certainly giving. Have you ever considered it?
After all, it would be easy to make a machine mentality that thinks exactly what you want it to. Even we do it now. According to you, FORCING someone to think the way you want is God-like.
I don't feel God-like. Do you?
Science has no proof of God - and if it did, wouldn't that amount to coercion? Wouldn't that dictate how a person should think, to whom a person owes fealty? It would be compulsion, intimidation, enforcement.
But there is none of that.
Do you think God is so DUMB that he would make a universe other than what he wants, for his purpose?
I don't. Truth is, I have faith in God - and you have none.
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John D. Partin
You are still trying to play more of your games and manipulate the conversation and have me fall into your traps, and so can't expect me to treat this like a serious conversation. Come back when you are ready for that conversation.
God doesn't consign anyone to Hell, but they do that for themselves, the same as criminals send themselves to prison. It is love for Him to respect their free will to make that choice for themselves, but our choices come with consequences. God doesn't need His ego to be caressed, not having one like people, but they don't respond to love and so get to have it their way and live without love.
You have faith in a God that you made up to suit yourself, but I have faith in the God Who actually exists and revealed Himself to us, not your "god" that you define and tell him who he is and follows you, instead of you following him. That really is your imaginary friend and doesn't fit reality.
There is scientific proof of God in the order in the universe, which can't do that for itself, but it doesn't coerce belief from you or your ilk because many people are in the regular habit of arguing with STOP signs that they actually say "GO".
It's very surprising that you don't "feel godlike" with the "god" that you have, since "he" is so much like you or else you so much like "him".
The universe that God clearly wants is the universe that we have where you and others can make your own choices and not be robots, but do have to pay for those choices. Heaven would be Hell for anyone who didn't want to be there and so they can go where they do want to be and it to be, at least, consistent there for them to be in Hell.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
JDP - you completely misunderstand me. Fall into ~my~ traps? Did I design the universe? Are you imagining I need to trap anyone? I assure you, my correspondents trap themselves. If you look at it correctly, you will see that is actually all I address.
And of course this isn't a serious conversation. How could it be when you are the sole arbiter of cosmic reality? The judge and authority of all that is? You claim I have faith in a god that I made up - and then state with a straight face that God claims you are the winner, revealed to YOU. That YOU are naturally the Master and Commander here, because you say so.
Stop the presses! Alert the masses! GOD Himself has decreed that The Prophets have come back, and they are JDP! Yes, that's right - if JDP thinks it, then it defines the entire universe! Rejoice JDP, for your tablets are stone and your bush is burning!
And for the low low price of just that delusion, you get to tell little two-bit punks like me just how it works and just where to go. Congratulations JDP - your 'God' is a book, and you know it cover to cover, and that means you. Know. Everything.
It's always about power to the weak.
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John D. Partin
Your "trapping anyone by having them trap themselves" is more evidence of your delusions about yourself. Since even you admit that you are a two-bit punk, how is that you imagine that you could also "be trapping people by their trapping themselves"?, which no two-bit punks such as yourself, are able to do?
I'm not the voice of God because I tell you God's words, when they are His words, right from His book, which you could read for yourself, but won't because they contradict what you want to do and "think" and the "God" that you make up to suit yourself and follow you, instead of your following Him, as you should. How completely dishonest and game playing you are!!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Exactly.
I called it exactly the way YOU see it.
The only delusions are yours.
Enjoy.
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shiningwolf9
Ha
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ServantOfJudgement
Europeans have a stronger flavor of Islam the US has, for now anyway. We have some Muslim communities forming that operate side by side US laws, skirting them as needed for honor killings and such. Don't try and ding me on that, it happens more than you'd think. Europe has the same happen to a greater extent, examine the Islamic communities around London, you'll see.
I don't know what this guy's motive was. He may have had real tragedy brought upon him from Islam, like the so called Sisterhood of Perpual Indulgence claims the catholic church did to them, which justifies they're raunchy free speech against Christianity. Maybe the guy just loves to hate, tons of people do, see Sisterhood of Perpetual Indulgence. Usually they say 'love, love, love' but it ends in hate, hate, hate. Any way you slice it, it's wise to avoid provoking anger in a group of people for the purpose of provoking anger.-
James Riggle-Johnson
Why did you bring up the Sister’s, and why do you say they are hateful? They aren’t antichristian or anti any other religion. Don’t confuse controversy or pushing boundaries with hate.
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Russel A. Kester
ServantOfJudgment, good thoughts. I was with you right up until the very end. People who work to inflict their outrageous beliefs onto others need society to push back. Demonstrations like this do just that. However, I do take your point that this man might now be in danger. So, perhaps you're right after all, it might have been unwise, but it was brave.
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Catherine
Are we not forced to ignore malicious intent with or without free speech?
That said, doesn't free speech end where action begins?
Since the act of burning an object somehow extends to being free speech, should religions dictate free speech and laws outside their church according to what offends them? I think not. And if the offended feels compelled to respond churlishly (threats of Allah's wrath which mean nothing to those who offend?), let them destroy each other's stuff without being glorified in media.
If I saw someone burning a religious doctrine, I would think what a wasted effort, because someone might have used that to better themselves. There are recovering white supremacists, so why not?
People are where they are in life. There is not much to do about that. Each of us is only in charge of our Self.
Specific to religions attempting to divide or control more of us by controlling each another with their bickering about who is 'the' religion, holiest, or more righteous or whatever, why please an offender by railing against a obviously malicious slight unless they want to keep fighting?
This is not about turning the other cheek. This is about choosing where to best spend time and energy. And these several minutes is the end of attention I'll allow the obnoxious offender and knee jerk reaction of the offended.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
Anytime someone wants to burn one of those goatherder's guide to the galaxy they should be required to include all of them. That means bibles, torahs, qurans, whatever nonsense JW, mormon and scientology wackjobs revere. Burn them all in one big blazing bonfire. That way no one can complain, end of issue
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Bishop William Dusenberry, DD
Like all things associated with all religions (except mine) faith, holy, blessed, exclusive truth, God (or, whatever God is called) sons of a God, Virgin Mary’s (or someone like her) Holy Ghosts, spirits, angels, devils, saints and all sorts of sacred relics (supposedly that touched someone considered holy) —
all this holy crap is made up by the tribe (church, mosque, temple, totem pole etc) into which one born—
in other words, whatever’s sacred or holy to us — we acquire due to the accident of birth — and a few of us take this make-believe stuff so seriously, that they’re willing to kill (and, often die) for it
In this regard, the words of Ernest Haeckel (Ph.D physicist) are apropos’ “there is absolutely nothing spiritual in the universe that the human mind can comprehend.”
If you don’t believe Haeckel — ask the next “spiritual” person to chat with, to physically describe such spiritual stuff to you - and to tell you how they found out about such holy stuff, while they’re at it.
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Jeff McClain
Its faith and the feeling you get when god is present in your life and moving with you!!! Obviously you haven't felt it and probably never will..
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You proved his point, You failed to even make an effort to address how religions are largely geographical in nature. Instead, it’s something you feel. Even that expressions something you were conditioned to say by others. Social conditioning is a powerful drug. There are procedures that are used to deprogram former members of cults. And the only difference between cults and religions arevthe number of members.
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Daniel Gray
And he also made the point against him as well.Islam is not regional, nor is christianity nor is Buddhism not even voodoo, once is spread out of a specific area its no longer a local issue. And its no more accurate to call them cults, then it is to call the people who are atheist or humanists or satanists a cult.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
The phenomena isn’t 100%. About 65% xtian in the US, and you can bet that used to be higher. In Japan 62% are ‘no religion’, 31% Buddhist with only 1% xtian (yeah). Iraq 95-9% Muslim. Italy is 83% catholic/xtian. Germany is 49% catholic/xtian and 41 no religion.
So as a secondary factor it depends on your family, or what type of brainwash mommy and daddy use.
Neil DeGrasse Tyson has said that if it were possible to completely and totally remove all knowledge of religion, and all knowledge of science throughout the world, destroy all the books, and all memory of those two areas, given time humans would develop new religions. But those new religions would be totally different from the ones that we have today. However, science would also rebuild itself. But the fact that it would have would be the exact same facts that we have today.
And atheism is not a religion. It’s simply a lack of belief in superstitious proposals put forth by religion. You are an atheist. You lack belief in the gods of other religions. And there are thousands of them. The difference is that I lack belief in one more than you.
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Daniel Gray
Um no, the SCOTUS has ruled that Humanism and Atheism are both religions. In fact the US Military was forced under the court to provide Atheists a marker on their tombstones as well as a form of a "religious" leader per each base.
And Neil DeGrasse Tyson has been proved wrong so many times that its funny that he can even think He still believes in the big bang and yet the James Webb Telescope has proved him wrong. He claims that Galaxies didnt start to evolve until billions of years later, het the same telescope has found perfectly formed galaxies formed less then 500 million years after his claimed big bang. Its also found black holes that are far younger then that, and you cant make a black hole without a star. They have found a Methuselah star (HD 140283) that is aged by the red shift that is 700 million years OLDER then the present age of the galaxy. He swears nothing can go faster then light, and yet admits ti quarks and tachyons both of which travel at speed 3 times faster then light. In fact according to NASA you get bombarded with tachyons so much so that if they were to actually be counted you would be hut over 300K per second. So maybe he is not someone you should be quoting?
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Atheistic organizations push to be considered ‘religious’ so that every time a religious organization pushes its delusional head into an area it shouldn’t be, a similar intrusion is made by satanic and atheistic groups. Atheism is a LACK of belief. Prove your wrathful, hateful, mass murdering, teenage-virgin-raping, jealous god exists and I’ll join you.
As for Neil, you missed the point entirely. Not surprising.
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Daniel Gray
Nope how can I miss the fact when everything I stated is based on fact and law?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Can you show me an "Atheistic church" granted tax free status by the IRS because it is "Atheistic"?
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Daniel Gray
https://www.becketlaw.org/case/gaylor-v-mnuchin/
They won, right up till the 7th US District overturned it and when they lost there and the SCOTUS refused to hear it, they dropped their case and it only cost them close to 1 Billion dollars.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Do you remember this line of YOURS:
"...the SCOTUS has ruled that Humanism and Atheism are both religions."
Wrong again DG.
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Daniel Gray
Correct yet again in making you look like a fool.
US Supreme Court "even though atheism and humanism are not religions in the traditional sense of that term, they are secular analogues to religion when they hold a similar place in adherents' lives. Therefor they both are classified as a form of religion."
US District Judge (a federal Judge) W. Brevard Hand ruled in 1987 that this was the case, and it was appealed to the 11th US Disctict Court in Atlanta, which refused to hear the case and the FFRF appealed it to the US Supreme Court and the Court upheld this decision. So according to you Kenny, this Judge, the 11th US District Court and the SCOTUS are all wrong because YOU say so? SCOTUS ruled "governments must treat atheism and humanism like a religion for purposes of the First Amendment." back in 1963. And again was upheld in 2005 https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-7th-circuit/1467028.html and again in Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961) and even WaPo said the same thing in a story they did about this issue back in 2017 and yet another case from the SCOTUS saying the exact same thing Carson v. Makin in 2022. And these are just a small portion of the over 2,380,000 links I have found all saying the exact same thing.
So the question is Kenny, do you ever get tired of being shown how ignorant you are on subjects?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You are conflating one authority with all authority - and doing so intentionally, because you want to cover up the fact with diarrhea of the fingers how you contradicted yourself.
https://www.becketlaw.org/case/gaylor-v-mnuchin/
Thanks for playing.
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Daniel Gray
No sorry Kenny, you need to stop with "im taking my ball and going home" you were proved wrong and by refusing to admit it, that does not help you in any way and in fact it makes it look much worse for you
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Russel A. Kester
I did a quick Google and found a Portland Atheist Church with 239 members. So, the answer to your question seems to be yes.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Are they recognized as tax exempt by the IRS?
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Daniel Gray
And the answer to that Kenny is yes they are.
Do you ever get upset about being handed your head every time you make such an easily proved wrong statement?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I asked you this:
"Can you show me an "Atheistic church" granted tax free status by the IRS because it is "Atheistic"?"
And you answered this:
"https://www.becketlaw.org/case/gaylor-v-mnuchin/
They won, right up till the 7th US District overturned it and when they lost there and the SCOTUS refused to hear it, they dropped their case and it only cost them close to 1 Billion dollars."
That's the last time I'm listening to you.
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Daniel Gray
So you are going to grab your petticoats and run away? I gave you the case in the 7th US District court (one of the 12 courts below the US Supreme Court) and you were also given the name of another Atheist Church (Portland Atheist Church with 239 members) which shows you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about as the truth does not fit your agenda. So go ahead and run away throwing a tantrum because you were shown to be wrong yet again. The only person you are harming is yourself and your reputation
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
That's right DG - I asked you for information, and I wasn't given useful information, I was given a bunch of BS.
You seem to be quite adept at that.
And "petticoats"? So you're a misogynist too. No surprise.
You can talk about my reputation all you want - but it's all about yours.
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Daniel Gray
oh so according to you a court case and and proof of an atheist church is not valid? you are just making it worse for yourself by being proved ignorant and then lying to try and cover up your ignorance.
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Lionheart
Well said, Dr Z. Those same feelings Jeff gets when his mythical god is in his life is exactly the same feelings when others peoples mythical gods are in “their” lives. All of of them are living by their faith, all claiming to believe in the real one. They have no other choice, because they don’t have any real facts, so faith is all they’ve got. Even their own omniscient gods don’t seem capable of proving they are real. Presumably, all they’ve got to rely on to try and convince us they are real is just us poor humble primates saying they exist. You’d think a real god that could create a universe would have a better plan than that. 🤷🏼
🦁❤️
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ServantOfJudgement
I suppose Haeckel could have made a more accurate statement if he merely included himself and atheists in his declaration on spirituality. Since he included all humans, his chance of error is extraordinary.
Even the worship of something as apparently harmless as Nature exposes man to his propensity towards horrific evil. For example: The billionaire elitists who worship earth via climbing(not typo) change are making great progress globally to cut emissions by drastically reducing livestock production and farming of tillable land. Science tells us when one limits the food supply of any given species, that species suffers a population loss. As we speak, the billionaires with their fingers on te knobs are killing humans globally in order to save nature. Same song, same dance, just a different stage with different actors. I hear they have quite the following.....
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Although you delusional regarding the billionaires ‘turning knobs’ to kill people, given that you are religious such delusions come natural to you. However, the world is severely overpopulated. Could I be charged with conspiracy to commit murder if I started a GoFundMe to assist their efforts.
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ServantOfJudgement
Dr Z I don't think it's murder when one makes it legal. See Germany WW2. With all due respect, delusion is not required to read and watch global or local news. You don't need to dig at all, just turn on your local morning news on the TV or radio, it's right there for you. Countries are mandating a decrease in food production and culling livestock. Ireland was just set to cull 200k cattle to fight climbing change. Having said all that silly talk, it takes a lion's share of delusion to ignore it. You really gotta work hard to ignore and deny it. You can start a go fund me page to chip in but I think the billionaires got a handle on it. Use the money to feed the starving instead, there's plenty of that going around.
This is important to see: Climbing change doesn't kill anyone, rather our response to climbing change will kill millions or more, brought to you by nature worship.-
Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
What’s your deal with using ‘climbing’ change? Just more silliness or is therebmore madness behind your madness?
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Rev Mark D
Servant of judgment: could you elaborate on what you said about "Dr Z I don't think it's murder when one makes it legal. See Germany WW2." I'm not sure I understand exactly.
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ServantOfJudgement
Rev D
Sure, the nazi legalized the brutal treatment of the Jewish people in europe. When a nation goes off the rails they make legal what would be illegal in and other decent civilized nation. I think they made it legal to kill homosexuals also. I referenced that behavior nations end up delving into and tied it to some of the behavior were beginning to see from global elitists in their fight against climbing change. Specifically the reduction food and energy production. We are seeing other countries move in this direction as they have very few obstacles unlike USA. This will in effect cost human lives, albeit a nice, peaceful and planet friendly way. A green way.
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Man of God
This subject requires deeper study. All believers who want ot understand this conflict between Islam and ALL other forms of believes must begin by studing the scriptures. OUR Father God teaches Moses about Abram beginning with the call of Abram in Gen 12:1. Study all of it. Next study God's covenant with Abram in Gen 15:1. Study all of it. The next most important teaching from our God begins in Gen 16:1, which is about Hagar and Ishmael. In Gen 16:11-12 the angel of the LORD told Hagar, "He will be a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Mohammad is a decendent of Abraham from Ishmael. Gen 25:12-18 gives a short account of Ismael's sons. Last verse Gen16:18....And they lived in hostility toward all their brothers.
The brothers are Issac and all his decendents. Meaning all Jews including Jesus (a decendent) and all his believers.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
what you're suggesting is using a fictional narrative to prove a fictional narrative? simply absurd.
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Rev Mark D
Well what these are are legends of intertribal striving hostility, and cultural traditions I think it's really silly that people would take them as literal stories about actual persons and also take the stories as given, since they can't be literal, actual firsthand accounts of actual people.
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ServantOfJudgement
Rev JJ & D
There are many many real places, events and people in the bible uncovered or documented by secular historians and archeologists along with bievers. The Muslims claim to own the burial site of Abraham, their father which matches its general location. The Israelite and Muslims both say they're born of Abraham. I'm not sure why people have a hard time swallowing provable facts but they do. I'd think a people would know where they came from, that's not unreasonable. The rest of us know where we came from, why can't they? If the contents of the tomb of Abraham were to hold the people the bible says it holds the atheists would drop that particular war cry and pick up a different one with the same cry, about how its not real, as we've seen them do. What J Good said is correct, we're dealing with a family fight like the bible said we would be dealing with, before either nation appeared.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
handmaiden of justice;
listing or discussing actual places and events found in the bible is one thing. creating fictitious events and people is another. there may have been a sodom and gomorrah but there was no pillar of salt. there could have been a jonah but he never lived inside of a whale. there could have been a transexual named jesus but he was the son of a man and woman and was at best, a magician. there could have been a localized flood that wiped out some number of people but it wasn't global. some guy and his family could have survived that localized flooding but the story is about incest and patriarchy. there could have been a man that lived considerably older than his contemporaries but not 900 years. the bible/torah is fiction, the new testament is fiction, the quran is simply an amalgamation of the bible, new testament and wandering beduin camel tribe myths.
you flail these myths around as if they have some authority but they don't, at least not to rational, free thinking people. and therein lies the problem: people who consider those books of fables and fairy tales to be true demand that all others accept them as truths as well. and not just accept them as true but worship, revere and respect them. to me all those books are crap nonsense made up by tribal leaders who needed a way to control women, virgin girls and young boys. no more, no less.
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Lionheart
There is still no demonstrable evidence that your particular God, including Moses, and Abraham, ever existed, so why would you quote fictional writings in an attempt to try and prove a point?
🦁❤️
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
I'm going to twist one up with my Quran rolling papers, and sit back on my recliner and toke it up, while listening to John Lennon sing Imagine on a CD. Would any of y'all care to join me?
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ServantOfJudgement
I wonder, did a fairy tale character write the laws they lived and died by? Did they all wake one morning and check under their pillows to find the law, then happily follow the new oppressive law?
The laws were written. The laws were followed. The people that were there and followed the law all said who wrote the law. Moses. Then again, we have people today that deny the WW2 holocaust happend less than 100 years removed. We even got Trade Center hoaxters only 2 decades removed. 4k years removed from moses becomes very easy to deny, given the consequences of believing Moses was real.-
Lionheart
The wonderful thing about the other fairytale characters, like Moses, is that there was no blood and gore, as far as I am aware, and there were certainly no little elves, or pixies, forced to have its foreskin removed, or stone other naughty elemental creatures to death.
Also, on the plus side, fairytale stories are wonderful for children to read, and I’ll less harmful to their very young minds, and they won’t be taught that their eternal lives are in danger, if they don’t believe in the supreme fairy. 🧚♀️
🦁❤️
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Daniel Gray
And you know that you are disrespecting a religion and can have your posts removed as they violate the TOS here or are you more impressed with how they post your BS instead of correcting you? You know you have been warned about doing this before right?
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Lionheart
Actually, Daniel, no I don't. As far as I'm aware I haven't been censured yet, but I'm totally happy to be if I am considered to not be meeting any guidelines.
I'm not sure how I am disrespecting anything by speaking my truth. Isn't that what the First Amendment is all about? I'm totally convinced I'm not upsetting anyone that believes in fairies and their elemental kingdom/queendom, or whatever it is those believers call it.
Anyway, thank you so much for your comment of concern, and I'm sorry you consider my posts as BS when all I do is point out what is contained in that horrendous book you like to revere as truth. Each to their own I guess.
Be well 🤗
🦁♥️
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Daniel Gray
And you do know Lion that I was speaking to Carl and not you...right?
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Lionheart
So why did you reply to my post and not Carl's, Daniel?
Apologies accepted.🤗
🦁♥️
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Daniel Gray
No apologies given nor needed as read Carls statement and then read my reply. I have no authority to tell the mods where to put the replies. and in fact they have done the same thing to you in not placing them under the post you were replying to
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Russel A. Kester
Interesting. It does seem that the peoples referred to have seen strife for a very long time. Strange that would be the case for such a place where a peaceful religion is reported to exist and has such a stranglehold on society.
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David Richard Procter
Turkey has a majority Muslim population and is blocking Sweden's entry into NATO. Just an observation, but there is some rancor between the nations.
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David Richard Procter
Erdoğan must have read my comment because he changed his mind fifteen minutes later. Think I am kidding?
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David Arthur Lewis
Yeah, right. Biden bribed him with fighter jets.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Procter, if you want to talk about your own topics you should start your own blog. On this blog we only discuss the articles they give us.
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Nicholas J Page
Why can't people leave other people's religion alone this is outrageous and Sweden should know better than to give a permit to burn the Quaran some body has lost the plot. Reverend Nick Page of the UK.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Your ‘Why can’t people….?’ questions begs yet two more.
Why can’t religious people keep their crazy beliefs to themselves? When you have the main character ascending into heaven on a winged horse this definitely reads like sci-fi.
Why can’t people use punctuation?
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Father Flanagan
Being from England you should know more than a lot of people on here how “Islam” does not leave any other religion alone. They have invaded countries throughout Europe and have been raping and assaulting and damaging property every where they go! They have absolutely no respect for any other religion and seem to be protected in every country by politicians who are afraid of being called “islamaphobic” well, there’s no such thing as islamaphobia as everyone who has fear of the ideology of hate and death disguised as a religion called Islam is perfectly rational and just. To have your own government tell you that you should “marry your rapist” is disgusting and immoral. We are discussing burning a book, it’s paper and ink, nobody is harmed by paper burning, the feelings of the people of these forced immigration laws have been ignored long enough as these invaders attempt to push their law “sharia” upon the citizens of their host countries and then riot when they don’t get their way - so unless your one of the brainwashed masses of ill informed bleeding hearts that welcome this “forced” open border crap where 70-75% of the “migrants/invaders) are fighting aged men then you should be defending Sweden for standing up for itself and it’s citizens. Unfortunately unless it directly affects them most people defend the alleged “victims” of the book burning yet the victims can wipe theirs butts with the host countries flag and nothing can be said or done about it because it’s “islamaphobia”
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Brien
It is a phobia if you hold one of those beliefs above another. They are the same. Both are are based in fear, both have been used to justify wars, genocide, extreme violence. So, the solution is to see these mythical beliefs as the same. I know this will probably get you all bunched up, but hey, the truth hurts. Peace ✌
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Russel A. Kester
Brien, perhaps the truth does hurt and that's why you refuse to accept the truth of Fr. Flanagan's statements. The issues he stated are real and continue to happen. Open your mind the painful truth that the forced immigration of a belief system like Islam was a bad decision. Now the same governments that caused it should take responsibility for it and correct their mistakes.
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Brien
I love it when people respond that don't read my post. So, let me use simple language, my own not from anyone else. I consider both organized brainwashed beliefs to be TOXIC and EVIL. Both are based on fear and murder. Sounds like you are one of those beliefs. Please understand that I simply don't care what an opinion is if it is based on brainwashed evil. I hope this clears up your misunderstanding. I am not here to listen to what evil has to say. I am here in an attempt to cure the evil by shining light on it's worst building blocks. Tell me, if you can, do you bend knee to a mythical, murderous deity? If so, there are plenty of real murderous evil beings that you can worship.
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Russel A. Kester
Brien, you seem like a good person. I must point out that it is not a phobia to fear a real threat to you, your family, or your country. At present, Islam is a real threat to all of these so it's not a phobia as phobias are irrational fears, and it is rational to fear real threats.
I do not bend my knees, as you say, to a murderous, mythical being. I do acknowledge a loving creator who sustains our reality and allows us through many life times to better ourselves so that we can, one day, move on to a higher reality. Thank you for asking. And have a beautiful day.
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Brien
Sorry you feel that way. The only threat to my family and my country are the extreme zealots that use mythical beliefs to justify hate. No matter how many flowery words you use to describe it, bottom line is hate. When I say that I don't bend knee, I mean it. The organized beliefs have nearly torn this world apart. I have lost LOVED ones due to someone else's crazy beliefs. I say it like I have seen it, fear based beliefs are responsible for more PREVENTABLE deaths on this world than anything else. Now, tell me, your idea of God, what is it based on? Be careful with your answer, you may end up proving my point.
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Russel A. Kester
There's a lot there! First, score one point for you in that I read your post with Fr. Flanagan's post in mind and didn't hear clearly what you said. In your most recent post, you wrote that the only threat to you, your loved ones, or your country is from extreme zealots with mythical beliefs. Islam is a religion whose adherents are extreme zealots with mythical beliefs. Therefore, Islam is a threat to you, your loved ones, and your country.
You asked about my beliefs in God. As I stated in my post above, I believe in a loving creator who patiently waits for us to grow up so the we can move on to a higher plane of existence after many incarnations in the plane of existence. I base these beliefs on the works done by persons such as Raymond Moody, Michael Newton, Dean Radin, and similar people.
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Brien
I am sorry. Either I am not communicating this very well or you may just be trying to step sideways on this. I will try one more time. It has been my experience that ALL of the major religions are ALL based in mythology. Further more, these beliefs are historically responsible for the worst wars, murder, and genocide this world has ever seen. Note that I have not called out any one religion as to me they are the same. A crutch used to brainwash or used to justify hatred among others. I believe in putting faith in yourself, your family, and your friends. Basically, have faith in your village. If you need a village to belong to, work for it. Respect is not given, it is earned. And it sure as heck does NOT require a belief in a mythical being, but a belief in yourself. I hope this can be understood. Peace ✌️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
A supreme being looks harmless on paper, but the hard-learned truth is that the idea of a supreme being appeals most strongly to the type of mentality who is simply grasping for authority and power.
This is the source of the conflict.
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Daniel Gray
No, foolish claims like yours are the cause.
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Brien
What claims? The only claims I see are those claiming justification for their own bigoted beliefs
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Daniel Gray
shhhh you shouldnt talk about kenny like that
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
DG - Do you remember saying if only the whole world was Christian, all world strife and conflict would end? Do you remember saying that?
There it is. "If only everybody thought like me, there would be world peace." And then you come on blogs like this one and say the things you say.
You revile diversity, justified with your God The Bible, which you emphatically defend, perpetuating nothing but strife and conflict.
I'm not the fool.
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Daniel Gray
Seems you are the fool Kenny as I dont remember making that statement as I NEVER DID make that statement. Now if you are going to lie about people then maybe you should just stop posting as by lying about people like you just did me that clearly shows how desperate you have become and how untrustworthy you actually are.
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Brien
Danny-boy, you did say it. And what kills me is you actually believe it.
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Daniel Gray
No sorry I never said it and if you can prove I said it then post the day and date I did it. I wont hold m y breath waiting as you cant.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
DG - you are dishonest to your CORE.
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Daniel Gray
So you cant prove it but still insist on lying? How typical of you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
We know what we saw - but it is exactly your denial that is concerning.
You proselytize until you see a chance to 'own the libs', then you lie about it.
Lie to anybody else to try to score points? Okay.
Lie to God? Wow. That is the PERFECT expression of modern evangelism.
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Daniel Gray
Sure you do....and when asked what it was or to describe it you cant do it.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
I have some extra periods if you need a few. 😉
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Brien
Ok, lol, I might be guilty of grammatical errors. ....???? ,,,,,,, """" There we go, giving to the cause. 😄
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Joe Stutler
While this isn't about a USA-related issue, such things do have consequences. Personally, I'm not in favor of burning any books, that's something for the truly stupids to do. Regardless, neither should any 'blasphemy' statutes be enacted/respected. (Get the perps on fire-safety issues, bypass the free-speech excuses.)
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David McKinzie
The permit to specifically burn the book was accepted by the Swedish government. No fire-safety issues was at hand at the time.
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Unless a religious book is being used as a religious, or psychological weapon against a person or group, such as the christian book is, then no, do not burn. Yet, it is being used this way in the countries where the religion is weaponized, and in that regard, I would leave it up to the persons being abused. I have no qualms at all about lighting christianisms book aflame, or start fires with it. It has been weaponized for centuries.