The LA Dodgers recently announced their plans to honor the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, a community organization of queer and transgender folks known for dressing as colorful nuns, at an upcoming Pride Night.
However, after outrage from some Catholic fans who said the group makes a mockery of their faith, the team backtracked and canceled the group's invitation.
Now the Dodgers find themselves backed into a Bud Light-esque corner, as LGBTQ– rights groups accuse the team of reneging on its progressive promises – while religious fans skewer management for offering the invite in the first place.
To understand what led to this moment, it's worth examining the group at the center of the backlash.
Who are the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?
With names like Sister Shalita Corndog, Sister Selma Soul, and Sister Lourdes Mae Shepherd, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence aren't exactly a Vatican-approved nunnery.
The Sisters are rather an activist and community service group originally formed in 1979 under the belief that “all people have a right to express their unique joy and beauty.” The group has chapters in different cities, including Los Angeles.
They are known for mixing drag and religious imagery to protest for hot-button causes, including abortion rights.
The Sisters' style could best be described as Catholic camp; members of the group often dress in Catholic-themed drag, and even canonize allies as saints, including actresses Kathy Griffin and Rosie O’Donnell, as well as California Governor Gavin Newsom.
But the group does a lot more than dress up in drag -- they organize charities, take part in parades, and are active in local politics. “Since our first appearance in San Francisco on Easter Sunday, 1979, the Sisters have devoted ourselves to community service, ministry and outreach to those on the edges, and to promoting human rights, respect for diversity and spiritual enlightenment,” reads a statement on their website.
Being honored by a professional baseball team was a culminating moment, an acknowledgement of the group's years of good works in the community... or so they thought.
The Backlash Begins
Almost as soon as they were announced as honorees for the Dodgers Pride Night, the firestorm started.
Catholics organized to flood the Dodgers’ phone lines, and politicians and religious advocates expressed outrage on Twitter. Cautioning the team, critics drew parallels to other businesses like Bud Light and Sports Illustrated that have found themselves mired in controversy after celebrating transgender people – and insinuated the same thing could happen to the Dodgers.
Shortly thereafter, the invitation was rescinded. Members were shocked.
In a statement, the LA chapter of the Sisters said that they're disappointed in the Dodgers' decision to "un-ally themselves with us in our ongoing service to the public," arguing that the Dodgers caved “to pressure from persons outside of the State of California and outside of our community.”
Satire or Bigotry?
The Sisters' use of Catholic imagery has clearly drawn the ire of many people of faith, with some critics going as far as to label them an "anti-Catholic hate group."
"The ‘Sister’s’ evil and disturbing behavior makes a mockery of Catholic religious across the nation,” said Brian Burch, president of the group CatholicVote.
Bill Donahue of the Catholic League took things a step further, arguing that the Dodgers – who famously drafted Jackie Robinson in 1947 – have forever tainted their legacy as civil rights trailblazers.
“These homosexual bigots are known for simulating sodomy while dressed as nuns,” he wrote. "The Dodgers choice to honor a blatantly perverted, sexual and disgusting anti-Catholic hate-group signals an alarming and dangerous normalization of anti-Catholic bigotry that should not be tolerated."
But supporters of the Sisters would hardly describe them that way. Defenders of the group point out that it has raised millions for LGBTQ+ charities over the years and made a meaningful impact in the community through its good works.
As for the charge of mockery? The Sisters' website explains that they seek to “use humor and irreverent wit to expose the forces of bigotry, complacency and guilt that chain the human spirit.”
What do you think? Were the Dodgers right to rescind the group’s invitation, or should they have stuck to their guns on this one?
And when it comes to satirizing religion and making a mockery of it, where’s the line?
Update: 5/22/23 – Dodgers Reverse Course Again
Following fierce criticism from the LGBTQ community over its decision to rescind the invitation to the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, the Dodgers announced they would be re-inviting the Sisters to participate in the team's Pride festivities:
THEY ARE NOT A HATE GROUP!
Except that they hate catholics. There is that. Yep, when you slam and mock a religion for 5 decades, you're a hate group. Anger lasts moments. Hate lasts long long time.
Hate? That's a bit of a stretch. They don't advocate violence against them. Disagreeing and making fun is not hate. If it were then pretty much any religion would be a hate group as many of the leaders spend an awful lot of time preaching not making fun but serious segregation and sometimes violence against other religious groups.
This group seems to just make fun and laugh a lot. They don't promote violent acts. They point out and laugh at them.
If I made fun of transvestites/transgender/lgbtqia2+map, which I wouldn't, I would be called a hater. Everybody knows this to be true. In fact, every single soul that merely disagrees with that lifestyle is called a hateful person.
Religion, any religion, is sacred to their respective believers. Mocking a specific religion=mocking believers=hate of that religion=hate for those believers.
Um real quick. Minor attracted person isn’t part of the LGBTQIA+ community. We do not accept them. Besides. Straight white Christian men are the ones who are MAP. Not the gays. Religion has done more hating and killing than any minority ever has, SOJ. You’re a fool trying to push another lie.
There's hating and there's parody. There are Jew Jokes. There are Catholic Jokes. There are Polish (in the US) Jokes. There are Gay Jokes. On and on. Where does parody end and hate begin? Everybody draws the line someplace else.
I belong to a Krewe that makes fun of everything and everyone and we don't hate anyone. Just look up "Krewe du Vieux" and you'll know what I mean.
Satire isn't hate. If you or some group that you belong to has put yourself out there publicly, you are fair game to be made fun of and satirized. That is just the way it goes.
If you happen to think I'm a hater, or I'm going to hell, or god feels this way or that way, well, then to quote the great Larry Flynt, "Opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got one"
They and their members mock, ostracize, discriminate and even brutalize LGBTQA+ folks now, including transfolks as you mention there, including people who naturally have features that make them look more masculine or feminine than society perceives.
They label what is Natural, as Unnatural, and it 's their Antiscience Lies that they won't let go of, that are Unnatural, which is why those right wing churches are all full of rape apologists, rapists, and pedophiles.
The go around casting their Own sins on Victims and Innocents, instead of taking responsibility for the suffering They cause, and inflict More of it!
I was Trained as a Sex Slave as a Child by some of these people, and know plenty of other people from support groups and advocacy, that have survived the same or similar. I still suffer from cPTSD problems at 50 years old because of it.
Sister Mercy Lynx
~still waiting on a legal name change...
servant of Judgement, are you god?
Come on, the Catholic church is in almost every horror movie involving Satan or demonic possession because they have so many rituals along with the obvious clothing choices. They should be more concerned with their really negative associations.
Servant of judgment... God's justice is mercy, which is something the Roman "Catholic" church lacks.
They still support Genocide via the Doctrine of Discovery that they can pull out to abuse again, at any time, rather than denounce and renounce it.
With that kind of looming threat over entire communities of marginalized people, how is anyone supposed to be safe?>
I am a nun, I studied to be a Jesuit most of my life. I've been trying to explain to people in that church, that I was born and baptisted into, that they've been teaching Christ all wrong.
The Bible was assembled with Empire building in mind, and spread the Opposite of Christianity, with force and violence, via torture, rape, and genocide.
I am a transwoman, and a Eunuch, following Christ according to Matthew 19:12, "Heretic" for following Christ out of the Roman churches,
Born this way, like many people are, having characteristics both male and female.
People act like "transgenderism" is a new thing, when almost every culture has known about it. Judaism recognizes multiple genders, as do many others, and all people try to do is lie and cover up history, and silence people with oppression, as the Nazis did as well,
instead of allowing the truth to set people free.
The Roman Catholic Church only tries to get LGBTQA+ people to conform in silence like everyone else, collecting tithes from the poor, and leaving people in endless misery, like most right wing churches, offering "reparative therapy" which is just abuse traumatizing them into conformity.
They've been a "hate group" for almost 2000 years. They at least have a half decent pope at the moment, but who knows what they'll get next.
Sister Mercy Lynx
Minister Najah Tamargo USA
Not to be disrespectful....but it doesn't take much to get a Catholic's panties in a bunch!!! I am SOOOO over the whole "drag" issue. I have been to drag shows and found them hysterical. Would I take a child....NO. That is the PARENTS responsibility. I don't believe that any government, corporation, sports team or anybody has the right to try and control these issues. The Sisters sound like they are kind and giving people, as well as entertainers. Leave them alone and just let them do their thing! Don't most religious preach to "love everybody"? Not seeing any of that love here!
That's sort of the point of groups like that. It's meant to be silly entertainment. Sometimes there is also some real talent in the mix as well. I think it's up to each person to decide for their family what they want to let their kids do and see. Trying to legislate that is a very dangerous thing.
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence started wearing the Habits when the Catholic church began condemning homosexuals during the AIDS crisis, telling people it was God’s punishment. Catholic hospitals would refuse to help gay patients. So, the Sisters came up with the idea of dressing as nuns and started helping AIDS patients. The Sisters have done more for people dying of AIDS than the Catholic church ever did.
The Sisters continue to do charitable work for many different causes in the LGBTQ community. They have raised millions to help Gay youth who have been abandoned by their parents, and people living with AIDS/HIV. All this while the Catholic church has done nothing for the LGBTQ community. I personally think the other honorees should pull out of the LA Dodgers Pride Night.
As for molesting children, being gay is not the cause any more than being straight is the cause. Child molestation is about control. They are sick individuals that (as the Catholics like to say) will BURN in hell. I personally think they should be castrated.
We do not mock nuns, we are nuns. We do satirize and mock hypocrisy, both in and out of institutions. . Minor historical correction. The San Francisco Sisters first appeared Easter weekend 1979. The name and statement of purpose was about 8 months later. Still well before grids/ hiv/ aids exploded in the US. One of the SF group's 1st fundraisers was to support recent immigrants from Central and South America. . But each independent Order quickly pivoted to fighting the disease- and the stigma associated with it. Both the Sydney Australia and Toronto Canada Order (in which I took my vows) were founded in 1981.
Sister Flirtatious Romanovsky of Middlesex, TOPI.
My apologies. I stand corrected. I knew your order was formed in 1979, but I got everything wrong. I knew what you were doing when the AIDS crisis started because I was living here in the City at that time. I remember that the Sisters and the Lesbian community stepped up when others were letting us down.
I was a scared 20-year-old when all that began and one of my strongest memories is how the Sisters helped. Thank you, Sister Flirtatious Romanovsky. You will and your order will always hold a place in my heart.
A lot of Americans, maybe a majority, aren’t happy unless they have something to complain about. Also, a lot of Americans are scared s****less about things they don’t understand. IMHO, our kids are much safer with a trans person reading stories to them in a public library, than a Catholic priest preaching to them in a Catholic Church.
So, apparently the LA Dodgers make more money from transphobic catholics than from the Gay community. No surprise. It's all about the bottom line.
Catholics are having one heck of a time right now keeping members just like other relations. Did anyone see the 60 Minutes piece on the Mormons with their secret stash of $200 Billion Dollars they "stole under false pretenses from church members"?
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence have been around for years and are just adorable. Don't they have more nuns right now that the Catholic church does?
You know all this does it make people hate the church, religion and Catholics even more. Who want's to be part of a religion that's mean to people?
We are not.mean to people. Period
Mr. Eash. You just said to ship off these folk to “Muslem Countries” so they can be be beheaded. That is the very essence of mean. Not to mention downright cowardly of you.
@Keith Allen Steele Eash Have you ever tried to look at your religion through the eyes of an outsider? Can you see how you claim is just not true? Christians and Catholics are some of meanest intolerant people ever. An as Robert James Ruhnke has pointed out, liars. Can you see how young people looking the hatred and lies Christians and Catholics spread want nothing to do with religion? Heck you men and women do not want to be priests or nuns anymore. And with the Catholics bullying the MLB into not letting the nuns come to a game, young people see this as just more hatred being spread by Catholics. Looks like the MLB received so many protest messages from non-Catholics they quickly reversed their decision. Sure sends a strong message to everyone of how evil Catholics really are.
Wow. Maybe Bow Wow Wow. Many many years ago, when I was a fledgling, I got to know a lot of people, including several person's of our city's home-styled versions of the sisters... when they first emerged at an early 80's Pride Parade that attracted less than a hundred people, the LGBTQ+-and $% community rebelled against them in an uproar that could only have been resolved by the Vatican.... Enough to get me going. I discovered the Radical Fairy/Faerie Movement. Not long after, having mailed several bricks wrapped in self return envelopes to Jerry Falwell and similar types and other acts of rebellion, an incredulous figure emerged: Sister Delicia Dominatrix. A wimple made from a cheap Woolworth bra, a big hat, a Guns and Roses veil, secured with a big cheap brooch; a slinky black gown sliced up the sides and black nylons with silk screened serpents with cheap white gems for eyes donated by a college friend. A Spandex belt with a huge buckle shaped like an enormous spermatozoa, and finally...black leather shoes with lots of silver studs... sensibly, low heels (because my ankles could never take it). And a nice leather whip. Eventually, the poor sister made her way to the local St Vincent De Paul thrift store on a hanger... and on to her eternal reward. Probably someone's Halloween, if the get-up made it past the door. Look, the Sisters and others may, like President Bush, cause a certain amount of "shock and awe." But that's the point, and they raise a lot of money for good causes and people in distress, while in distressed outfits that are no different than any other circus clown. That's where it's at. Street Theater and folks that are committed to raising awareness and finds to do what they do.
I sometimes miss all of that now that I'm old (er) and can no longer deal with even sensible shoes or tight underwear. Kudos to those who carry on and best wishes for their educational and fund-raising efforts for their good causes.
Offended? That's the point. Give them a dollar.
Talk about Much Ado About Nothing ! ! ! On May 22, the Dodgers reversed course once again. They apologized to the Sisters and re-invited them to the Pride Night celebration. As John Cleese once said, "They wait for the thrill of being offended." (And, wow!, were some offended.) And Ricky Gervais said, "Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right." I would add, "Know what you're talking about before opening your pie hole."
The conservative solution to anything they don't agree with these days is to DEMAND everybody live their lives to please conservatives. Conservatives DEMAND that everybody dress, look, act, and think like conservatives. Conservatives DEMAND that everybody OBEY THEIR DEMANDS - and I could keep on listing them - like their DEMAND that all women of child-bearing age ONLY have sex in order to produce progeny, and conservatives DEMAND that ALL pregnancies produce a baby.
It truly seems modern conservatives are whiny, selfish, demanding, childish tyrants that ONLY CARE ABOUT THEMSELVES. And yes, they think they've come up with a lot of great reasons for their demands - but they are NOT. They are just self-serving delusions.
Actually conservatives are just like everybody else, they just don't like anybody knowing about it. They don't like being caught they don't like being outed they don't like being seen to do all the things they say they hate. The only real difference is that they are where fascists come from.
I think most of you sound like nasty little children. Why not put this energy into making this world better?
Wasn’t it your god that killed little children due to his anger management issues with Pharoah? 🤔
No. Pharoah issued an order to slay all Israelite male children, which Moses escaped from. Later, God merely gave Pharoah a Lion's share of his own judgment. No pun intended. God is righteous like that. Egypt wanted dead babies, that's what they got. They worshiped frogs, bugs, etc. That's exactly what they got. Today in Thailand where they worship the monkey, God, in his fashion has given them the monkey. Sure, sure, the monkeys are a plague now, but they got their monkeys. God is active, righteous, reliable, real and on the move.
Do you have any demonstrable evidence that the god you refer to, or any god, is real? If you do, you will be the first person to do so, and, you’ll be eligible for a Nobel Prize.
As for Moses, there is still no evidence he really existed, apart from anecdotal stories written about the character in a book.
Lion, You reference the Bible more than I do!
Even if I gave irrefutable proof, you would still choose to keep your stance, as the Bible says you will.
True about Moses thus far. This has been said many many times concerning the people and events in the Bible. It's said until whatever specific denial is uncovered by archeologists. An old favorite was Sodom and Gomorrah until discovered back in the 70s. Now they even know they wer destroyed the way the Bible says.
When they prove the Israelites left Egypt and lived in the desert you'll have to pick a new one like the Sodom and Gomorrah crowd did.....
Not true, as a free-thinker, I'm good with believing irrefutable proof with anything that uses logic, reason, and critical thought.
If you are referring the large meteor that is supposed to have possibly destroyed a huge area of 200 square miles, that could have also included the place known as Sodom and Gomorarah, the only reference in your book is: “And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.” - Genesis 19:28
No reference to a meteor, just fire, that would also have decimated other townships within the 200 square miles. They didn't know what meteors were. Meteors are common occurrences, just take a look at our own Moon. Nothing sinister going on there, but the moon has had far more of its fare share throughout its evolutionary history. I bet those that saw a meteor exploding in the earths atmosphere, and not knowing what a meteor was, would easily have interpreted that as an arm of their god, much like people thought thunder and lightening was anger from the gods. That's what ignorance can do to a people.
There are more than 40 huge craters on earth, that have had far more impact than the one we think helped to destroy S and G, which only had a fire. I bet those that witnessed those craters being created would have believed their god did it. Why would anyone have thought any different if they didn't have the knowledge that we have now.
Servant of Judgement, thank you for demonstrating the insanity of your gods awful death cult. May it be washed away and cleansed from this earth. An may humanity be free of its evil.
Is hate something that exists in the one being called the “hater,” or defined by the one claiming to be the “hated?” A quick dictionary search shows that hate is something within the “hater.”
I think we more often than not confuse being offended, or someone or some group we find offensive, with hate. But I disagree completely with the notion that anyone has the RIGHT not to be offended, or that anyone has an OBLIGATION to not offend.That is what people seem to be calling HATE, here and elsewhere.
I have read these forums weekly for years, and it is really depressing. I know the ordination we have all received is basically the same as a diploma from a diploma mill, but one would hope people getting an ordination from any source would be just a little more thoughtful and a little more kind to each other.
If we want to be free, to have freedom of speech, of expression, freedom of association, and FREEDOM OF RELIGION, then that means we have to allow others to offend us from time to time.
MLB withdrew an invite to a hate group, what's the problem?
you misread it, they are being attacked BY a hate group, the cataholics. you know, the ones that like to diddle liddle bois.
Interesting. Homosexual priests are members of the LGBTQIA+MAP community. They sre. While molesting a boy is wrong to the heterosexual community it appears to be acceptable in the lgbtqia+map community. School teachers, coaches, neighbors, boyscout leaders, faith leaders, realatives, on and on and on, all are guilty of molestation. Sexual depravity knows nothing of borders, religions, universities, corporations, or any other cultural construct. Mankind has fallen into total and absolute depravity and mankind is cheering it on.
@ServantOfJudgement You stated, "Mankind has fallen into total and absolute depravity and mankind is cheering it on."
What do you mean mankind has fallen into.... You should mankind has ALWAYS been in total and absolute depravity. Have you not read a Bible? It's Good that's been allowing this to happen ever since he had a son. Get your facts straight.
You think God is helping society engage in behavior that God puts nations down for? This is all old news, been happening before Jesus was born. Zero change except we're evolved today, right? We're sophisticated nowadays. We've got psychology and geneticists on our side. We've got panels and committes to approve and validate our depravity. No, I don't think so. We're just as barbaric as we've always been. We're just as corrupt and errogant as all those nations God destroyed. I'm not wanting to anger anyone, I'm just stating the black and white facts easily read in God's Bible. When nations do what we're doing, God puts them down with zero exceptions, so says the bible.
@ServantOfJudgement I'd like to see where in the Bible it says when Nations are doing what we are doing God puts them down with zero exceptions. Why is it God allowed so many Nations in the history of the world to thrive when they were doing what we were doing. By chance was the behavior of Nazi Germany similar to what we are doing today?
Douglas It's all through the latter parts of the old testament. In one case that stuck out to me, God gave signs that he was actively judging a nation: Kings that are grown men which act like children(Trump) Kings that are too senile to be effective (biden) Leaders that are very young, too young to be wise(pick some from either side) Rampant homelessness Human feces all over public places(west coast but many cities) Heavy reliance on drugs legal or illegal Children sold into prostitution(human traffic+only fans+more) Men portrayed as women. Much more. Sound familiar?
As far as the National Socialists in ww2 Germany, yes they were practicing eugenics full force. Expirimenting medically on children and unwilling adults. They were killing homosexuals and any other human that didnt fit their mantra. They of course had gone on the warpath needlessly and murdered millions. They were more like ancient Babylon at their end with war, science and the German Man being their primary gods. I dont know their social structure leading up to the SS reign without researching it, which i might now for reference. Their ending was similar to Babylon's end but not nearly as severe. They both ended in rubble and plundered, like God said.
The thriving Aztec sacrificed and partially ate an estimated 15-40 million men women and children before God put them down with the evil Cortez.
Nations may thrive for a time, that is to say, they may thrive until God's warnings are ignored too long for God to allow them to continue any longer.
Regardless of ones belief on God, to those that can see, our states and nation are in an extremely precarious position that has historically ended in destruction to this day.
Let's either wish or pray we avoid it. Maybe we can change the future by working together.
@ServantOfJudgement You say it's in the Bible, but not where. You just say it's in there. Do you mean Ezekiel 23:20?
When you say Nations survive for a time what you describing is evolution and natural selection just as Darwin and many others described. But not how nature works but how societies evolve. Has nothing to do with God.
You might to do a bit of research on the Hitler and the Nazi party. In Hitler's book Mein Kampf First Chapter Doing God's work and executing God's work destroying the Jewish People. Hitler oath every Nazi took made Hitler into a minor God. Oath begins, "I swear in the name of almighty God my locality to the Fuhrer. Belt buckle of every Nazi soldier "Got mit uns" God with us or God on our side. First treaty made by the Nazi's was with the Vatican and the pope. The pope had to swear allegiance to Hitler and the Nazi party was given political control of Germany in exchange for the Catholic church having control of German education The Catholic Church celebrated the birthday of the Fuhrer until the end of WWII.
God so loved Hitler and protected Hitler from over 100 assimilation attempts.
I like so many people have found prayers and believing in God or Gods doesn't get things done It's people taking action that results in change. The actions Christians are taking is harmful to society which is why society is rebelling against God and religion. God and religion hurt and harm people.
Douglas, Thanks for the brief education regarding Hitler. Much appreciated. I seem to remember reading Hitler claimed to be a Christian. I definitely knew Germany was laundering plundered Jewish gold through the Vatican as well. A rekoning involving the Vatican is in order. Truly a satanic alliance was formed during WW2. When a leader says he's doing God's work I get pretty nervous unless he's saving people or kittens.
I appreciate your words regarding why people feel the way they do about God and Christianity, I'm glad you shared your thoughts. I see these things myself as I'm truly on a quest for the truth of why we're here and what circumstances were caught up in. I try to see objectively.
I can only say, one calling himself a Christian(or anything else)ultimately means nothing, you'd have to judge their statements against their actions to make a determination. Hitler was not a Christian, obviously. President trump claims to be a christian yet says he's never sinned. Not sure what he thinks adultry is but Jesus calls it sinful. It appears that Trump is not a Christian but for show.
Much more I'd like to say but it's getting long.
@ServantOfJudgement Nice that we can have an interesting conversation. Why are we here? Random chance.
I was raised Christian and hated every moment of it once I became a teenager. Science to me became my religion and it is incredibly interesting. As I aged I started looking into the history of religion and science. And as I learned more about religion it becomes obvious it’s all a scam. Have you ever heard of Joseph Campbell? His videos are on YouTube. He spent 60 years of his life comparing the worlds religions. It’s incredibly interesting. But what he found is all of the stories in the Bible are just the retelling of stories in other much older religions. Virgin birth, miracles, God almighty, sacrificed son, resurrection/rebirth, flood, etc. All of the stories are just recycled stories.
As for Hitler…. Unclear if or how religious he was. But he did have some religious upbringing. From what I read, after each of the assassination attempts on his life he believed God/providence saved his life. This just reinforced that he was doing what God wanted him and the Germans to do.
The definition of a Christian, is a simple one. One just has to say they are one. As there is no agreed definition as to what it means to be a Christian.
If one researches the history of the Christian religion over the centuries one finds it’s filled with deception and lies. Martin Luther 500 years ago exposed all of the fraud in the Catholic church on his journeys to the Vatican and his 95 theses. The history of Christianity is very interesting. At the beginning there was ONE God and one book that was the word of God. Today there are over 50,000 different Christian religions. How did that come about if there was only one God and one book?
They are not a hate group. Their entire purpose is to do charitable work for the LGBTQ community.
Oh so when the MLB says they wont tolerate the lefts attack on religion, the left gets upset?So making fun of Nuns is somehow ok with you?
Making fun and full on attacks are two very different things.The group doesn't promote violence, just fun. The mark of honest religious convictions is to be able to live your own belief and not care what others say or if they make fun. Getting upset about that is the problem, not that some people will make fun. Save it for an actual hands on incident.
not when you are classified as a hate group
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence do not fit the definition of a hate group. Their charter does not list antipathy towards people of one or more other different races, religions, ethnicities/nationalities/national origins, genders, and/or sexual identities.
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence is a charity, protest, and street performance organization that uses drag and religious imagery to call attention to sexual intolerance and satirizes issues of gender and morality.
There's nothing about their actions or mission that calls for hating Catholics or Christians or straight-folk. They are Americans exercising their 1st Amendment right to assemble and protest non-violently.
nope sorry, but they are considered a hate group as all they do is make fun if nuns.
Lol not they’re not, Gray. Nuns have a higher constitution and sense of humor than you do. They mostly don’t care. You’re the one crying about it.
sorry but they are, Or are you saying the FBI which has them listed in the same category as BLM, is somehow wrong because YOU say so?
BLM isn’t a terrorist organization or hate group. They have been poorly labeled as Black Identity Extremist group.
After a really quick search. The only ones calling them a hate group are Catholics. Not the government. Stop lying Gray. You’re really bad at it.
Also. They got invited back to the game. Sooooo. Shut up on topic you don’t know anything about maybe?
so you try and use a left wing source to prove your left wing lies? How typical
It leans left. I understand for you that means far left considering how right/fascist you lean.
I even like checking my sources. Sources with an AllSides Media Bias Rating of Lean Left display media bias in ways that moderately align with liberal, progressive, or left-wing thought and/or policy agendas. A Lean Left bias is a moderately liberal rating on the political spectrum.
Yet you yourself still don’t provide any proof of your word. As per usual. How self righteous and typical of you.
Dunno, if I were catholic I'd be mighty offended at the hate being hurled at me. Charter schmarter, who cares about that? What are they doing? They are mocking catholics for decades.
They started wearing the outfits when the Catholic church began condemning homosexuals during the AIDS crisis, telling people it was God’s punishment. Catholic hospitals would refuse to help gay patients. So, the Sisters came up with the idea of dressing as nuns and started helping AIDS patients. The Sisters have done more for people dying of AIDS than the Catholic church ever did.
If it's okay for Catholics to publicly defame members of the LGBQT+ community, then it should be okay for members of the LGBQT+ community to mock Catholics with camp and satire.
What are they doing? The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence promote safer sex, raise money for HIV/AIDS and breast cancer research, support Haight Ashbury Free Clinics, supported the legalization of medical marijuana, and are involved in a number of other community support projects.
so what? you think cathohllics are special? where do stand on priests rapping little boys, or nuns? I suppose you're 'behind' that because you see it as doing god's work, right? cathoholics, chis chins, muzzys, chews, anyone who sets themselves up as better than those around them, use their religious beliefs to bully and threaten others, that insist that everyone believe as they do...they get nothing from me but disdain, disrespect and derogatory comments.
where are the complaints from you self-righteous slobs when some claim that LGBTQ are molesting children? I haven't seen any of you take offense at that. Or that democrats and liberals are grooming children to molest them? where's your outrage at those stupid accusations? none, but by the same token you all get offended if some religion, some religious organization or person is identified as a hate group or hater even though that is exactly what they promote. there are a few in this thread too.
@rev jj When a male regardless of if he's a priest, teacher, coach, firefighter, police officer, military enlisted, mayor, senator, president, or common man molests a boy, that male is a member of the lgbtq2qia+map community. How do I feel about priests molesting boys? Same way I feel about all men molesting boys, it's not exclusive to catholics. Sure, they cover it up like schools, police, colleges, politicians, businesses and most others do. They all cover it up. They should be punished severely and be locked up forever. Forever. I'm not catholic. These drag queens are mocking a people and you know it. Everyone knows it. They say they mock them. It's hateful and everyone knows it.
You need to stop including "Minor Attracted Persons" with LGBTQIA+. No one from that community condones pedophilia. Suggesting as much is to slander and de-legitimize that community.
False. It's about power using sexuality as the tool. It does not make either the victim or the assailant gay or part of that community.
Satire and mockery is still not hate or violent. It's pointing out and poking fun at the hate and violence perpetuate by those they are mocking through satire. If a person cannot see that then I'd personally be concerned about just how that person might either be tempted to do the same or are already guilty of it.
SoJ child molestation is almost always, almost exclusively straight males. the cataholic church is the worst by far for molesting, allowing molestation and covering up for decades and decades. then there's the boy scouts, another 'catoholic' organization that covers up married, straight, parent men molesting boys. as for the drag queens, at least they're honest about who they are, as for mocking people, so what. it's not against the law. mock away. do you think I take you serious? you're a joke and I mock you. relision, as you are showing here, is hateful. plain and simple and easily read in your goatherder's guide to the universe plainly shows. it starts with your hateful god.
Rev. Straight men don't have sex with males. Straight women don't have sex with women. Any man that molests a boy is a member of the LGBTQIA2+map community. Don't lose sight of that fact.
When an organization covers up sexual abuse, severe, visible, quick and lasting punishment should be the appropriate response. I feel we're in agreement with at least that.
SoJ gay men have sex with other gay men, not children. straight men, married, with kids, professional, are the ones that have sex with children. it has nothing to do with gay or homosexual, it is something that they want as individuals. by claiming it's LGBT you're just using that as an excuse to hate and condemn gays and heads up, that is NOT your job, that belongs to that misogynistic, pathological, sociopath god that makes you kneel before him and worship him.
The Roman Catholic Church should correct itself and be ashamed of the ways they have historically treated all kinds of marginalized people.
Well, to the dodgers it's all about the money and so they have fiduciary duty to shareholders, which they (actually all capitalists) hold sacred over even things like pollution and financial crimes and other sorts of thievery, but that's another conversation...
Meanwhile because yes they do make explicit fun of Catholics and use that to successfully further whatever activities they imagine they're doing, well that's the equivalent of black face and you can't very well approve of black face if you would forgive somebody essentially doing the same thing about Catholics.
It looks like satire to me. Making a little fun is one thing. Unless they are caught breaking things and hurting people I really don't see a problem with them. They seem like a fun loving group, not a hate group by any stretch.
So if you dress up as a Catholic nun to mock Catholics, it ok....but if you dress up as a person of color, it's racist, if you dress up as a Native American it is cultural appropriation, if you dress up as a Mariachi group you're a bigot. Seems it is not ok to dress up as anyone except Catholics
This is a false equivalency. Catholics choose to practice their religion can can stop at anytime. Persons of color can't stop being a person of color.
I appreciate that the Dodgers reversed their decision.
Let’s compare the number of Drag Queens who molest children vs the “religious” leaders who actually do molest them. Yup 0 to many thousands.
problem here is the supposed chis chins here whining about this are the first ones to demand to be treated differently...read, better than all others. religion is nothing more than organized hypocrisy and the need to think you're better than everyone else, that you've been appointed by you batshit crazy doG
Honoring them for what? Being part of the human world. Congrats... we all have to live here. Be special on your own time. We are all special on our own time. Nobody needs special treatment.
These creeps are a hate group and attack a religion they know nothing about. If you cant see that then the problem lies with you and not with the Nuns they so love to despise.
Pfffft. You wouldn’t know a hate group if one burned a cross in your yard. Oh wait. That’s you burning the cross. One minute you rag on the Catholic Church. The next you’ll defend it, if it’s means throwing queer folk under the bus. The only creep here, as always, is you Gray.
Sorry Ruhnke, but the only people that believe your BS is you. YOU are the one denying that they are a hate Group when the FBI clearly says different as well as the FBI Crime Report of 2022
Please post a link to the FBI statement or FBI Crime Report of 2022 that indicates the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence have been lableled a hate group by the FBI.
wow, such a masachist. It seems you really do like being proved wrong each time you try and make a claim. https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/fbi-releases-2021-and-first-quarter-2022-statistics-from-the-national-use-of-force-data-collection
Bologna, gray. The actual hate group is Catholic Church, by behavior at least and many many times through history. Just check out Christopher hitchens list of the 92 things the pope has finally, belatedly, apologized for going all the way to some other things that didn't apologize for like it's official support for apartheid and Nazism even as late as 1964.
Really D? I guess you missed the story where these same creeps stole money that they were supposed to be gathering for charity, or so they claimed. And THEY are the ones that are disparaging the Nuns, I mean you dont see Catholic Priests or nuns acting this way against LBGTQ people or running around acting like they are transgendered nor anything like what these creeps do.
Oh but I get it, not agreeing with them is destroying your latest flavor of the month ideal.
You might grab a Chicago newspaper or have a look at CNN's headline roll tape, just today the Illinois attorney general released a report concerning what the fathers have been doing in Illinois alone. Hey since I'm not a Catholic, it's no skin off my nose how many children the fathers pork.
Not just the catholic preists. Its police officers, day care workers, coaches, teachers, lots of teachers, all religions, fire fighters, office workers, bank executives, railroad workers, ymca volunteers, peace corps, UN officials, senators, amusement park workers, Hollywood producers, Disney executives, boyscout leaders, warlords, human rights activists, actors, drag queens, military personnel, married couples, presidents and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.
Anywhere there is mankind, there is sexual abuse of our children.
And the question that the people who support this group refuse to answer is..."Its not that they shouldnt be embarrassed in doing it, its why should they do some crap like this in public in the first place?" Because if they didnt do this, there is no way they could keep their face in the papers. I seem to remember reading in the papers about how upset they got when Harvey Milk was killed, even though he was facing charges of raping young men (and this came directly from a gay newspaper in California https://www.thepinknews.com/2014/04/26/afa-harvey-milk-stamp-is-honouring-a-known-sexual-predator-and-paedophile/ The child he raped was a 16 year old young man named Jack Galen McKinley). or the Gay guy that went into the gay nightclub and opened fire? The people defending these creeps are the same ones that would go on and on and on about how bad it was for something like this to happen, and yet think nothing about the actions of this terrorist group and thieves who steal money that does not belong to them and was supposed to go to a charity
And why should I listen to a chicago newspaper who is so anti religion that its not funny. I prefer to listen to the authorities in this https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/fbi-releases-2021-and-first-quarter-2022-statistics-from-the-national-use-of-force-data-collection
Sorry, correction to last post : "Street Theater and folks that are committed to raising awareness and funds (not finds) to do what they do."
Sorry. I'll go away and polish my wand now. tk
I know the perfect solution. Send them to Muslem countries. They'll all be beheaded very quickly. Case closed. Problem solved.
Wow. Advocating for executions of groups of people you dislike. That's a new, fascist low for you, Keith.
Why are there no groups like the SPI dressing up in burkas to mock Islam in present times? I'll tell you why.
Because Christians, when they get angry over such things, will simply TELL you are sinful and going to hell.
On the other hand there is no shortage of Muslims who will not only tell you what a sinful creature you are, they will then personally do what they can to facilitate your trip to the underworld through such means as urban base jumping without a parachute.
Why sports teams are getting involved in this kind of social crap I don't know. Simply play the game to entertain the fans and leave everything else alone.
The fact of the matter is the vast majority of American society IS tolerant of people living their own lives. But that's not good enough for these activists.
Not only do they insist that you tolerate it, they want you to actively support their their position and if you're not marching in a pride parade, well then, you're just a bigot.
It has become ridiculous and the only thing the activists are doing are making the previously tolerant people less tolerant and causing them to form a hard line against this sort of thing
Why sports teams are getting involved in this kind of social crap I don't know.
Well that's easily answered it's all about money, groups with social opinions, very very large ones, now vote with their dollars. It matters to a commercial organization with shareholders who are owed every ounce of intensity serving their financial interest from their fiduciary executives. If it matters to the bottom line they have to get involved in some manner.
In theory that's basically true, but some of these groups, particularly various activist groups, only appear "large" because they make a lot of noise.
In this case I'm sure the Dodgers weighed it and determine the group with the actual numbers was not with the disinvited group.
Anheuser-Busch/Bud Light found that out the hard way.
The Dodgers re-invited the Sisters.
Brother Michael, thank you for differentiating the difference between the Islamic faith and Christianity. By following Christ teaching to walk away shake the dust off of our feet as a testimony against them is sufficient for our Lord and savior Jesus the Christ. It is our practice to show the love of God and allowing His judgement to be fulfilled by His own hand not ours,
D you have to be gay or trans to join the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence? Sounds like fun!
Not at all. Although the early Orders (San Francisco, Sydney and Toronto) started with only gay men, the international Orders now identify as "a 21st century order of queer nuns" - and it is up to each of us to define "queer" ... it's so much more than mere sexual orientation. . I know of many Sisters of various gender identities and orientation. Also, most Orders also have non-Sister members- variously Guards, Pups, Father and pretty much anything else you can think of. . The US Order vows are to "Promulgate Universal Joy and Expiate Stigmatic Guilt" - some info on the Vows I live under as a Sister in the Toronto Order of Perpetual Indulgence are posted at https://sisterflirt.ca/about-me/sister-flirts-vows/ . Flirt.
Not at all. Although the first few Orders started as groups of gay men, the international Orders now identity as "21st century Orders of queer nuns" . I know Sisters that fit pretty much every combination of gender identity and sexual orientation. And most Orders now have non-Sister members; often Guards, Pups, Ministers. Vows in San Francisco, the founding house, are to "promulgate Universal Joy and expiate Stigmatic Guilt". . Individual Houses (each one in the USA are independent registered non-profits that are licensed by the trademark council) are able to set their own structure, titles and responsibilities. . The vows I live under, as a Fully Professed Sister in the Toronto Order of Perpetual Indulgence may be found on my website https://sisterflirt.ca/about-me/sister-flirts-vows/ . Sister Flirt.
Not at all. . Although the first few Orders started as groups of gay men, the international Orders now identity as "21st century Orders of queer nuns" . I know Sisters that fit pretty much every combination of gender identity and sexual orientation. And most Orders now have non-Sister members; often Guards, Pups, Ministers. Vows in San Francisco, the founding house, are to "promulgate Universal Joy and expiate Stigmatic Guilt". . Individual Houses (each one in the USA are independent registered non-profits that are licensed by the trademark council) are able to set their own structure, titles and responsibilities. . The vows I live under, as a Fully Professed Sister in the Toronto Order of Perpetual Indulgence may be found on my website. . Sister Flirt.
...Although the first few Orders started as groups of gay men...
Do you mean holy orders, Catholic orders, Protestant orders?
Would like to know more, as an amateur historian would be interesting, maybe some historical references one can start learning about and digging into.
"the first few Orders" of Perpetual Indulgence. The 'mother house' in San Francisco celebrates Easter weekend 1979 as their founding. The Toronto Order, 8 gay men founders, first manifest at the June 1981 Pride protest march- performing an exorcism at one of the downtown police stations in light of the Feb'81 bathhouse raids. The Sydney House was co-founded by an Australian who had spent something like a year in the USA- and was a Novice in SF during that time. The Germany mother house was founded out of a spiritual/social group inspired by reports of the SF House. The SF House website www.thesisters.org has some history and links to Houses around the world. The book Queer Nuns: Religion, Activism, and Serious Parody by Professor Wilcox is both a Sistory and an analysis of our Mission and impact. Now all of the US Abbeys (legally separate entities licensed by the trademark holder) and most of the world-wide groups are 'queer nuns' open to all permutations of gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.
If you know something, the fact that others disbelieve or mock it is irrelevant...think about it...
Any public entity should be cautious appearing to endorse or condemn any controversial issue. Stay with your purpose.
It is every human beings purpose to be kind, loving, compassionate, and honest.
Unless you belong to Antifa, or any other anarchist groups.
Please let me know when these alphabet activists turn their attention to other regions and their followers to lampoon all in good natured fun. The Muslims and Hindus are always open to having their religious traditions lampooned.
Openly mocking any religion is not a feature of any good religion.
That is just wrong and scary takes away the santany of church and the safe feeling your supposed to receive knowing that your children will not be exposed to this horror. I will admit never was a church goer but when I did I know that they would never lower themselves and it was all about Bible study and God well being of humanity..
Not something that should never have occurred.. that's pure evil.. your taking away the security of the church.
Alright. Here we go. I will have to break my message into several parts to fit it in. Keep reading.
"Charitable work" they say? I'm sure it is quite possible to do charitable work without mocking others' faiths and feelings.
Also, what kind of charitable work do these "mocking nuns" do? To promote LGBTQP+ even further among small children? Sounds like disguised pedophilia. There are many examples of this: "drag queen story hours", or wide-spread pedophilia in early Soviet foster homes when Communists legalized LGBTQP+ in the early USSR 1918-1934, or deep connections between Communist-Marxist groups and LGBTQ groups in the USA and Europe, or long-standing affiliations between LGBTQ and NAMBLA ("man-boy-love-association"). Such sickness is unfortunately a very common thing from a "community" that took the word "love" and substituted its meaning with "free irresponsible wild sex" -- just like "liberation" in the language of Marxists actually means "slavery", as history shows. All of this is very dangerous for any society.
Do homosexual and lesbian people (especially couples) deserve full recognition by society? Yes, absolutely they do. When two people really love each other, live together, and are truly loyal to each other it should be called a "family". Even if they are of the same gender, they are a family. Love is love.
In contrast, when some group promotes sexual perversions and irresponsible sexual relations with multiple partners (so-called "free love" - read: "sex" - that has nothing to do with real love whatsoever) and mockingly and viciously attacks anyone who speaks from the positions of common sense and logic, such a group not only badly discredits itself, it even taints the very existence of normal monogamous homosexual people and couples.
Some people are naturally gay -- they have always existed in the world, and they always will. Homosexuality exists between animals. But in reality, the incidence of this sexual orientation is very small, and in normal circumstances it does not exceed 1%.
Mother Nature Herself limited homosexuality biologically - gay couples do not have children. It is a natural mechanism of the self-preservation of the species. If a high percentage of a species would be homosexual, then such a species would rapidly die out because of an acute drop in birth/repopulation rates (a fertility rate of 2.1 children per woman is a bare minimum for any society, group, or country, to simply keep the same population in future).
What does world data show about repopulation/fertility rates? The highest rates are recorded in the countries of Africa (from Kenya 3.23 to Niger 6.73) and the Middle East (from Kuwait 2.22 to Afghanistan 4.53), according to the CIA. The population of these countries and regions is rapidly growing. The lowest rates are recorded in Asia (from Taiwan 1.09 to Nepal 1.88 with only Vietnam reaching 2.04). Latin-American countries are all at or below the healthy repopulation rate. European countries and the USA demonstrate dangerously low repopulation rates (USA 1.84, UK 1.63, Canada and Ukraine 1.57, Spain 1.29), which means the populations of Europe and North America are shrinking, dying out and "aging". "An aging population" means there are more old retired people than young working people, and the social burden of the support of the first ones lands heavily on shoulders of the last ones, which is also very bad for the economy, defense, future.
And what do LGBTQP+ groups contribute to Western societies in respect to our already shrinking, aging, dying populations? Ah, LGBTQP+ groups widely promote abortions.
There were 63,459,781 children killed by abortions in the USA alone (1973-2021 statistics).
Stop and think of this number. The USA has lost more than 63,000,000 people. Killed. Aborted. Erased from the future. 926,190 child deaths every year. With internal organs ripped out for profit. 2,537 child deaths each day. Mercilessly, coldbloodly, assassinated and sold. What do we hear? "School mass shootings"??? "There were 103 people killed in mass shootings in 2021, how horrible..." C'mon!! Why we don't hear about the abortions?? 105 children have been dying EVERY HOUR since 1973. A genocide.
(end of Part One)
Look at all those lies and oppression. How do you even sleep at night?>
Most of the pedophilia comes from right wing church cultures, where they still try to abuse their daughters into ignorant rape victims and slaves to marry off for the rest of their lives.
All the screeching blaming the LGBTQA+ community and others for Their sins, is just victim blaming, since they often abuse All children in those communities, keeping them locked in trauma induced conformity, too isolated from the rest of the world to know they're trapped in lies and abuse.
That is what you are enabling with your post here.
I know Dozens of people from recovery and support groups who have experienced similar systematic intentional abuse, even Child Sex Slave training, like myself, by these supposed "Christians" that hate and blame everyone else for what They do.
Sister Mercy Lynx
You are right about pedophilia in Christian churches, there are bad apples out there, and the Church often covers for them. But nobody here discards this (big) problem. Pedophiles (of any kind) must be held accountable for their crimes against children and humanity.
But the Church at least doesn't promote obvious sexual perversions. Christian churches do NOT have almost naked "males" (or "females") twerking their butts in a front of 3-14 year old little children, you simply cannot find such things in Christian churches.
Average Christians who follow their religion usually have high morals and good values on family, on relations between people, on abortions (as a medical necessity only), on children and their education, on human virtues, on patriotism. All that definitely benefits a healthy society.
And what do LGBTQP+ "communities" share with the society, apart from oftenly irresponsible sex (including dirty orgies), childless relations, all sorts of pervertions (including many unknown anywhere else in Nature), deep connections to organized pedophilia (NAMBLA and others), and in addition an actual hate toward normal (97%-99٪) straigth people? That's what is being shared. What for? For an "LGBTQP+ diversity"? A "diversity" of, excuse me, what exactly? Of different sorts of ... bold promisquous egoism??
Meanwhile, we don't have normal support groups for those poor people who were badly abused in straight relations, or especially during their childhood. Instead, such victims are getting influenced by LGBTQP+ "communities" into various sexual perversions. That is only pushing their traumas deeper inside instead of professionally and adequately healing of their old psychological (and sometimes already psychiatric) traumas and problems.
I knew such victims. They were groomed and molested early in life, and then groomed and molested by the LGBTQP+ "community" under the dusguise of some constant sick "celebration", and only after that, with a lot of help from doctors and friends and in (already) normal straight relations those poor victims were finally be able to find their inner peace and happiness.
So, when will we really start helping victims to heal?? If it is your goal, of course (which I sincerely doubt). Because only a normal human support of mentally stable people and good professionals will indeed save many lives and heal many souls that badly need that.
Lmfao. You don’t know that the Community is diverse and is comprised solely of same sex couples. Also. There are lots of Gay and Lesbian people having kids with straights an staying in the closet for various reasons. Also. People who love and live in poly relations aren’t perverse. Abortion isn’t murder. An it’s definitely not genocide. Truthfully speaking. If we didn’t have religions like Islam and Christianity constantly bullying people into submission, i think that 1% would be closer to 15% of our population. A really, we don’t need 10 billion people over crowding our planet. One more thing. The most common demographic for pedophiles is white, straight, and Christian. In Today’s LGBTQIA+ the P stands for Pansexual. Not pedophilia. The fact you’re using outdated and gross rhetoric undermines your so called acceptance. Shame on you.
Wrong. Abortions are genocide.
It was s succesful plan.
Nobody knows how many (tens of millions? hundreds of millions?) of Americans were never born because of the birth control measures.
Yes, such enormous casualties are called genocide.
Shame actually on you.
15%?! You got to be kidding. "15% of homosexuals" do not exist anywhere in Nature, leave alone other sorts of perversions. Did you ever see lions-transgenders? Crocodiles? Eagles-queers? Nope you did not, because even between monkeys (the closest species to humans) it does not exist. A natural level of homosexuality (a naturally occuring mutation between animal species) is below 1%, and in some cases even below 0,1%.
To be able to reach "15%" of LGBTQP+ within a society you would probably need to virtually ban all straight family relations, but I truly doubt such outcome, because even atrocious terrorists Marxists Vladimir Lenin (a homosexual himself) and "East-Side Jew" Leon Trotsky (Bronstein) could not achieve such numbers when they "cancelled classic marriages" and fully legalized LGBTQP+ in 1918-1932 in the USSR (first time in the world). So, your ideas are not new at all.
Are you a Marxist too? Then you likely also support Putin's "antifascism" and all Russian atrocities in poor Ukraine, right? That's very sad.
How did this get on to abortion? I don't remember that.
I was fuming as I read this... How can a religious group intimidate them? So, they lose a few sales to the Christians? They can afford it. Till I read the update at the end. The Sisters have been re-invited!! Yay!!
Here's how you get them off your back... You turn the cameras away from you and back on to conservatives, they hate that, boy do they hate that, because then you see the camera sees them doing everything everybody else does, and you watch them back away and stop trying to intimidate, just turn those media cameras away and back onto them. Then watch 'em run.
In no way am I a proponent of the Catholic church as long as they maintain Roman Catholic in their name and practice polytheism rather than monotheism. But I do not support this type of mockery at all. I can see their symbolic mockery as the Roman Catholic church wove paganism into Christianity under Augustus Caesar, but two wrongs do not make a right.