fetus and scales of justice, depiction of legal battle over abortion
Evangelicals scored a major win in the legal battle of abortion recently.

The U.S. Supreme Court recently declined to hear a case challenging a new abortion law in Texas – basically allowing the provisions to go into law, and prompting intense new debate over an already-fraught subject. 

The Texas law bans abortion after a heartbeat is detectable in the fetus, which typically occurs around six weeks (before most women know they’re pregnant). Other controversial features of the bill include no exceptions for rape and incest, and a provision allowing private citizens to sue any practice or private individual who helps a woman obtain an abortion. It is effectively the strictest anti-abortion law in the United States.

Pro-choice activists were up in arms over the new law and the Supreme Court’s narrow decision. On the other side, pro-life groups and evangelicals – among the loudest voices pushing for such restrictions – were ecstatic.

“God Bless Texas!”

“God bless Texas!” tweeted Franklin Graham when the law went into effect at midnight on September 1st. 

Senate Bill 8 was signed into law by Texas Governor Greg Abbott in May of this year, and has seen legal challenge after legal challenge. Abortion providers and pro-choice groups fought tooth and nail to have it overturned, to no success.

Finally, in late August, Planned Parenthood filed an emergency appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court just days before the bill was to take effect, requesting that the nation’s highest court block the law. In a 5-4 decision, they declined to hear the case, leading to the now near-total abortion ban in the Lone Star State. It’s estimated the new law will prevent up to 85% of abortions in Texas.

Pro-life advocates in Texas were excited at the news, to say the least. CEO of Texans for Life Coalition Kyleen Wright said it is an “unimagined joy” to watch “Roe crumbling in front of our very eyes.”

As that quote indicates, anti-abortion advocates see this as another stepping stone to overturning Roe v. Wade, the landmark 1973 Supreme Court decision that codified the legal right to an abortion. And with the green light from the Supreme Court, other states have already signaled their intention to craft similarly restrictive laws.

Is It Un-American?

One Christian who isn’t thrilled about the new law? President and devout Catholic Joe Biden, who lambasted it as wildly unconstitutional:

"This extreme Texas law blatantly violates the constitutional right established under Roe v. Wade and upheld as precedent for nearly half a century. My administration is deeply committed to the constitutional right established in Roe v. Wade nearly five decades ago and will protect and defend that right."

As a Catholic, Biden is personally opposed to abortion, but is in favor of reproductive rights and doesn’t feel he has “the 'right to impose [his] view on the rest of society.'"

“I respect those who believe life begins at the moment of conception and all. I respect that, don’t agree, but I respect that,” said Biden, but he argues that the highly restrictive Texas law is “almost un-American.”

It's a view that has caused a serious rift between the President and his Church, as many Catholic faith leaders have sought to deny Biden communion over this stance on abortion. Some have even successfully carried out the threat

What do you think? How should Christians view this new law?

212 comments

  1. Alexander Clarke's Avatar Alexander Clarke

    Right wing Christians are the American Taliban.

    1. Douglas Robert Spindler's Avatar Douglas Robert Spindler

      Well said. Both want control and dominance over women.

    2. Mary Catherine Kanz's Avatar Mary Catherine Kanz

      Exactly! And, yes, please secede from the Union. Please.

      1. Kathryn Darcy Smith's Avatar Kathryn Darcy Smith

        We would if we could! God Bless Texas!

    3. Robert A Stiff's Avatar Robert A Stiff

      Texas is the new US Caliphate.

    4. Rev Ned's Avatar Rev Ned

      Texan, Taliban. Both start with T. 🤔

  1. Maximillian Martin's Avatar Maximillian Martin

    More psychos telling people they don't even know what to do with their bodies!!! This has to stop!!!

    1. Robert Frizzell's Avatar Robert Frizzell

      Just curious, are you in favor of vaccine mandates?

      1. Nicole Carroll's Avatar Nicole Carroll

        We already have vaccine mandates. Polio, rubella, measles, mumps, etc. Why is this different?

        1. Amber Fry's Avatar Amber Fry

          True. most of which were used in an emergency classification before it was fully approved. Many of them were mandated long before we had a FDA to approve them but even those that came after, still given partial emergency approval just as this vaccine was. Now that the Pfizer formula is fully approve, and the medina is close to it, there shouldn't be an issue.

      2. Pink Clover's Avatar Pink Clover

        A woman being pregnant does not affect others. Not getting the vaccine can and does.

        THAT is the difference.

      3. Maximillian Martin's Avatar Maximillian Martin

        Not really. I think it's the choice of the individual. Just as an example, if they were to decide to mandate flu vaccines I would absolutely refuse it. I haven't had a flu shot in about 35 years and have had the flu 5 times or less in that time. Now with this current situation I still feel it should be a choice even though we don't know exactly how it will play out. Same thing with masks and quarantining people.

        1. Jean Bakula's Avatar Jean Bakula

          The people who aren't vaccinated are causing the break through cases of Covid. And the Southern states in the U.S. where the least are vaccinated have the most deaths, especially now of children. I guess somebody you know has to die of it before you will get it. Other vaccines are mandatory and have been. Do you want measles, mumps, rubella, polio, and all other diseases to come back too?

          We see how it's playing out. Again, mask less crowds spread the virus the most. I am glad for the mandates, if selfish people don't care who they kill. I bet you are pro life too, supporting a pro death platform.

          1. Lumina's Avatar Lumina

            I do not believe in the jab. And I do not believe in the flu shot. Its your business if you got the jab, everyone has a choice this is a fee country , not communist. The once that received the jab belong to Bill Gates he patented his vaccines, plus they kill people do your research. But you do not believe in Jesus either. God has said my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.

        2. Candice Beairs'Hodge's Avatar Candice Beairs'Hodge

          It is the same with the polio and measles shots we didn't know what it would do how I react but we got it anyway it's the same way what's the covid virus we don't know how it would act what it would do but we need to get it simply to build antibodies antibodies but something else is coming worse than this

  1. Robert Edward Szekely's Avatar Robert Edward Szekely

    Maybe it is time Texas seceded from the Union, after all.

    1. Kathryn Darcy Smith's Avatar Kathryn Darcy Smith

      We would if we could! GOD BLESS TEXAS!

      1. Katelynne Shouse's Avatar Katelynne Shouse

        Don't let the door hit ya where mother nature split ya on your way out. BYE!

        1. Beth's Avatar Beth

          If Texas does leave the Union, the US would have to remove everything that belongs to us - and if it cannot be removed, destroyed - as withdrawals from any foreign country are done. That includes the Space Center in Houston, and a bunch of Navy, Army, Air Force, and Coast Guard bases.

  1. Dan Anderson's Avatar Dan Anderson

    So when is Governor Abbott going to put a law into effect to demand all males get a vasectomy? Or will it be made illegal to obtain a vasectomy?

    1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

      Abbott is another one this proud Texan never never voted for.

  1. John Anderson's Avatar John Anderson

    The law won't STOP abortions in Texas, it will stop SAFE ones. It will return to the days before Roe v Wade, where an abortion clinic will use whatever is available to them (the old "coathanger" abortions) and charge an exorbitant fee to do so.

    1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

      I've always been proud to be a Texan. It's our state politicians who need to be aborted. Or atleast tarred, feathered, and dragged behind a pickup truck! Dont put it past disgruntled Texans.

    2. Sergiy Kozulya's Avatar Sergiy Kozulya

      first, even so-called "safe" abortions sometimes lead to death or infertility. Secondly, this road can lead far. Step 1-legalizing abortions. Step 2-Legalizing prostitution (This is their choice! Safe sex is useful for the psyche of men! Let's create a union of prostitutes! Regular medical examinations!). Step 3-Legalization of ALL drugs ( Low-quality drugs kill people! Let's stop AIDS!). Step 4 - Legalizing murder (the world is suffering from overpopulation! You have the right to release your anger before it destroys your psyche). Step 5 - ? Perhaps you will agree with me - we need to stop somewhere on this road. And illegal clinics are now easy to track. And women after illegal "dangerous" abortions will immediately give the address and names.

      1. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

        Murder is already legal, ever hear of war? I live in nevada so yeah am entirely pro legal prostitution, though I find it odd you think only women work the trade, and men are the only clients. Had a cousin that worked at the moonlight bunny ranch, and she said the vast majority of her clients were married couples and the husbands mainly watched.

        Oregon just decriminalized personal possession. States that have legalized pot have seen drastic reductions in resources wasted on locking up people for the "terrible crime" of getting themselves high.

        Abortions are legal, to make them illegal is to become a tool of evil. You are obviously evil so we all can see that fact in your posts.

        You also are clearly woefully ignorant of what anger does to a humans mind, nor do you have even close to an actual logical conclusion as killing is well documented to cause mental illness. Just as does the act of forcing a woman to carry a child to term.

        Just so you know more women die in the U.S. in childbirth annually then to botched abortions. So you basically invalidate yourself right out the gate. Which proves you are not just evil but woefully unfit to even step into the arena of reasoned human debate.

  1. Thom's Avatar Thom

    I will welcome my home, my couch, and assisted recovery to any women who choses to do what is her decision with her own body. No MAN or STATE has the right to tell an individual how to handle their medical decisions. We have crossed a very fine line with church and state that never should have been crossed!

    1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

      Do you have good, free food at your house, Thom? And what about free booze? If so, please state your address. I know a lot of women who would take you up on that, and I'll come with them, to assist.

  1. William Diaz's Avatar William Diaz

    If God hates abortion, why does He allow miscarriages?

    William

    1. Douglas Robert Spindler's Avatar Douglas Robert Spindler

      Texas prosecutors will need to go after God for killing fetuses with spontaneous abortions.

      1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

        That God is on the run, Douglas. So far us Texans haven't been able to catch him. But when we do, he knows he's got a good whipping coming to him.

    2. arawngraalrd's Avatar arawngraalrd

      If God or Nature is free to order a miscarriage, normally before Quickening, who should usurp that prerogative?

      1. William Diaz's Avatar William Diaz

        You used the word "If". which implies uncertainty. And you are juxtaposing "God and Nature" as if they are the same thing. Are they?

        William

    3. Dr. Bob Thomas's Avatar Dr. Bob Thomas

      A miscarriage is not an abortion. If abortion is murder, then yes it goes against God's commands.

      1. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

        But god is a fictional entity, and to suggest your beliefs are more then personal an act of an insualr minded enemy of the secular U.S. society that all in the ULC must stand with to be in good standing and keep our minister status. Not one minister her supports the idea that any god or its commandments should dictate how society or even one person other then yourself should behave. We even firmly stand against indoctrinating your children and would call you pushing your faith on them an evil worthy of your destruction.

      2. William Diaz's Avatar William Diaz

        The effects on the body and the emotional impact are identical. Only the reason behind them differs. One is a choice by an individual the other caused by God. Both terminate a fetus! Miscarriages are sometimes referred to as spontaneous abortions.

        William

      3. Amber Fry's Avatar Amber Fry

        Unfortunately until the fetus is viable outside the womb then it isn't alive anyway, in which case its more a potential for life. If it isn't alive yet then it isn't considered murder. This is why they leaned on science to decide 22 weeks was the tipping point. At 6 weeks there is no heart, its a valve that won't become a heart for months. Top that with most women don't even know they are pregnant yet at that time and they have completely removed both personal choices for life as well as blocking women from options in caring for her own body. You cannot insist on less government oversite in peoples life and then over legislate for the exact opposite. The GOP has sunk to a new low.

      4. Adam Clifford Clark's Avatar Adam Clifford Clark

        The same god that allows rape and forced incest ?

    4. Cindy L Edgar's Avatar Cindy L Edgar

      Miscarriages are different than abortions

      1. William Diaz's Avatar William Diaz

        The effects on the body and the emotional impact are identical. Only the reason behind them differs. One is a choice by an individual the other caused by God. Both terminate a fetus! Miscarriages are sometimes referred to as spontaneous abortions.

        William

    5. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

      William Diaz, by that "logic" that, because miscarriages happen, God must not hate them or even love them, since He "allows" them, it would have to be surmised that God doesn't have a problem with malaria, bubonic plague, Covid 19, the Aids epidemic, cancer, or any other diseases or medical conditions or with serial killings, genocide, wars, slavery, racism and discrimination because of it, and all other man-made evils in the world, too. God doesn't allow these things. Our corrupted nature and human nature allow these things, in defiance of what God wants. The difference between what nature does to us and what we do to ourselves and each other is that nature isn't conscious or intelligent and doesn't deliberately hurt or kill anyone, but only acts according to its laws. A tornado or earthquake or hurricane or volcano or other natural catastrophe doesn't try to kill anyone or large groups of people, but just does what it does blindly. A miscarriage in the also unthinking woman's body doesn't deliberately kill a child, but just is the result of its own natural functioning or malfunctioning. Abortion, however, is deliberate, and so not the same thing as a miscarriage and can't be excused by falsely equating it with a miscarriage. We can choose not to have abortions, while unthinking bodies and the rest of nature don't have any choice about what they do. God isn't going to overrule people's will and make them not get abortions or do whatever else to themselves and others that they want, anymore than He will overrule nature and stop it from doing what it does because that would be His deciding for us, instead of our deciding for ourselves not to do these things, and gravity, centrifugal force, and the rest of nature are blindly operating forces and work as they work because of corruption of the natural order and can't be stopped without disrupting the whole thing. But God will hold us all accountable for the wrong choices and evils that we have done to ourselves and each other, since there are consequences to our actions.

  1. Clay Serenbetz's Avatar Clay Serenbetz

    A bunch of men at the signed ceremony applauded when Abbot embarrassed himself by demonstrating his ignorance of women's reproductive health issues. First Abbott believes that you can arrest rapists before they commit a crime. He is unaware that most rapists are known to the victim. Also, he was unaware that women who have been raped will not know if they are pregnant or not within the six-week window allowed under the law. How any married man, with a daughter, be so clueless about a woman's reproductive health is stunning? How a Governor could sign a bill into law without knowledge of a woman's reproductive issues is grossly irresponsible and, in my view, criminal. His constituents need to remove Abbott from office and elect a responsible Governor who actually cares enough about an issue to educate themselves about the issue of which they support. Does this man have sex with his wife? Did he bother to consider his wife's body during her pregnancy. Does Abbott care about his daughter’s health. Apparently, he chooses to remain ignorant. I sympathize with his wife and daughter. Is Abbott senile and forgot his sex education? Oh, not all schools in Texas are required to offer sex education. Such education is not mandatory to graduate. Texas only teaches abstention in its sex education curriculum, which explains their high teen birth rate. This evidence proves that Texas fails to adequately educate its children. It's no wonder that they're living in the dark ages.

    1. Sharon Veronica Meixsell's Avatar Sharon Veronica Meixsell

      I understand Abbott had an accident and is paralyzed from the waist down. I wonder if that has figured into his decision.

      1. Clay Serenbetz's Avatar Clay Serenbetz

        His "accident" has absolutely nothing to do with his lack of judgment or his poor education or his political views. It may, however, affect his constituents' sympathy, which allows him to get away with murder.

  1. Katelynne Shouse's Avatar Katelynne Shouse

    If Texas won't leave of its own accord I say we kick it, and any other State that adopts these fascist and misogynistic laws, out on there butts......good riddance to bad rubbish

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Yes, along with all misogynistic religions, which I'm thinking might be most of them. I'm good with that!

      🦁♥️

    2. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

      It sounds like you're alright with all the laws of every other state, Katelynne. Are you sure you know what all of them are? I get every state has laws that some citizens dont agree with, so why not kick them all out of this nation. It might be better to accept that we can't always get what we want, but as law abiding, patriotic Americans, we go along with it anyway, and dont stir up any shit, that won't leàd to anything other than anxiety, and a headache.

      1. Katelynne Shouse's Avatar Katelynne Shouse

        You're absolutely correct I should not have singled Texas out when so many other States are just as misogynistic and anti-women. Therefore when reading my original post consider it to mean ALL STATES who act as Texas does should be kicked to the curb and left to fend for themselves. Thank you for pointing out my mistake!

    3. Kathryn Darcy Smith's Avatar Kathryn Darcy Smith

      We'd leave if we could! GOD BLESS TEXAS!

      1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

        Which god would that be then?

        🦁❤️

  1. Douglas Robert Spindler's Avatar Douglas Robert Spindler

    A man forcefully raping a women is less of a crime in Texas than a women getting an abortion.

  1. William Dusenberry's Avatar William Dusenberry

    The next time you interact with anyone who would force a nine year old rape victim, who became pregnant, because she was raped by her father’s brother (her uncle) even though her MD told her parents, she’d probably die — during the birthing process;

    Tell such a compulsory pregnancy person, that it’s ok if he supports such a policy to use against his granddaughter — but question him about why he wants everyone else to do so — even if they consider such a policy to be medieval barbarism, reminiscent of the Spanish Inquisition.

    ULC Bishop William Dusenberry, DD.

  1. Ruth Veale's Avatar Ruth Veale

    This is wrong on all levels. NOBODY has the right to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body, it doesn't belong to anyone but the woman and only she can decide what to do with it.

    It the woman doesn't to have children then it is her responsibility to take the necessary protection, it can't be left up to somebody else.

    Having said that, it is inhumane to expect a woman who has been raped by stranger or within the family or has been subjected to incest to be expected to carry a baby to term, this is beyond cruel and these should be exceptional cases.

    1. Amber Fry's Avatar Amber Fry

      In the very least add to that any pregnancy that isn't viable. There are a lot of invitro conditions where the fetus dies or will not survive at birth. Forcing a woman to carry that to term or until too sick to survive it is also wrong.

  1. Nicole Carroll's Avatar Nicole Carroll

    I don't understand why I see all these signs against the COVID vaccine stating clearly "MY BODY MY CHOICE!", but when it comes to abortion, it's a whole other mantra. I don't know too many people that are PRO abortion. I, and many others are not FOR abortion. I am FOR a woman's right to make her own very difficult choice. I'm PRO CHOICE! Get the difference?

    1. Amber Fry's Avatar Amber Fry

      Add to that a pregnancy isn't contagious. Covid is highly contagious and a serious concern for the public at large because we don't really know who can succumb and who can fight it off without a hitch. Being hypocritical about this doesn't help their cause. If they can control a single person's medical conditions that have no bearing on them then surely this highly contagious virus should be an even higher priority on their agendas since anyone can get it and pass it around.

  1. Herbert Moore's Avatar Herbert Moore

    I was hoping you might bring this to everyone's attention. It gives me an opportunity to invite the Wicca community to hex these Texas legislators - as some did Trump prior to 2020. Abortion issues aside - lopsided vigilante intimidation is wrong.

    1. Rev Mark D's Avatar Rev Mark D

      Herbie: Maybe you can answer, what exactly does Wicca religion have to do with abortion, either way? This is a new one on me.

      1. Amber Fry's Avatar Amber Fry

        I think you misunderstand. The call is for hexing legislators for getting involved. The GOP was 'supposed" to be about less government involvement in things and yet these yahoos keep pushing more legislation into controlling personal healthcare choices, who gets to vote, when and how, who gets educated and who doesn't... they need hexed back into some semblance of humanity and humility.

    2. arawngraalrd's Avatar arawngraalrd

      Throwing curses so casually is not something I'd encourage, but blessing Others to share in the Getting of Wisdom, is how I'd use The Rainbow Sword for Political Assassination.

  1. Rev Mark D's Avatar Rev Mark D

    Originally abortion was outlawed at the political action of doctors in the 19th Century, who were hacked off at losing business to midwives.

    1. Amber Fry's Avatar Amber Fry

      Partly. Either way it was made legal again because women were getting them anyway by backstreet butchers. Infection and death was often the result. So was infertility if they survived. It couldn't be regulated so it was made legal again to save lives and keep the procedures in check. It's about to happen again if this law takes hold. So much for pro life. Take the side of the potential over the actual living and the world suffers far more than it should have to.

  1. Cheryl Anne Hamm's Avatar Cheryl Anne Hamm

    Separation of church and state is under attack. God gave us free will to make our own decisions for which we will have to answer, not to man but to God. Morality cannot be legislated. Its ironic that the church claiming to follow the teachings of the Christian God that wants to take control of every aspect of our lives.

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Yes, and what does the mythical Christian god know about morality, obviously nothing, judging from his poor decisions of genocide and infanticide.

      🦁♥️

  1. Sharon Veronica Meixsell's Avatar Sharon Veronica Meixsell

    All I have to say is this: the only man that should even perhaps have any say in this would be the man that got the woman pregnant. I am sick to death that all you men talk about something you don't even know about. Let's just make the woman that was violently raped at knife or gun point and have her carry her baby to term. Oh, that won't hurt her...therapy will make it right. Surely, it was God's will that she was raped and got pregnant and it is God's will she has to have the baby. And so while she goes to therapy if she can get it for free...she will hate her child most likely because the child will be the physical end result of the perhaps one of the most painful in her life. And who cares about her age or her financial status...she will just have to have that baby. And maybe the rapist has some sort of genetic marker for something such as Down's syndrome or MS or something else. So now the baby will have massive health issues possibly even be born without a certain limb. And the woman now has to care for a child who has special needs. Maybe the rapist was a drug addict as well and so now her baby when it is born will have to be in the ICU. Don't tell me this stuff doesn't exist. I wasn't on drugs and neither was my boyfriend. However, I have medical conditions that require heavy medications which can harm the development of the child. My doctor told me I was lucky that my son was born with all of his limbs. However, he did end up on the Autism Spectrum. It was tough . I was 19 and I was married. When I got pregnant the second time he said it was my choice but the doctor reminded me again about the extremely high likelihood my child will have extreme health issues. I didn't know I was pregnant til after 6 weeks. And I got the abortion. And while I was sad...I realize I didn't have the energy or the financial means to raise 2 kids with extreme health issues. I made the best decision possible for me and my potential baby. Cause I do not believe a baby exists at conception. Once again though..everywhere and on this site unless you are a doctor, a spouse, etc that is a man you do not know what you are talking about.

    1. Joy 's Avatar Joy

      Thank you for sharing with us. You are so very correct. Most do not understand, even some women don't even understand. I commend you on making the right choice for you and your family.

      1. Robert A Stiff's Avatar Robert A Stiff

        Halleluiah! Men need to butt out of any legislation that pertains exclusively to women.

    2. Jean Bakula's Avatar Jean Bakula

      And people who insist this draconian law is good, only care about the fetus while it's in the womb. They never support any programs to help Mothers. Many women have boyfriends who bolt the minute she finds she's pregnant, often from birth control that failed. I'm sorry you had such a hard time, but would have done the same.

    3. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

      Sharon Veronica Meixsell (and all others here who share your view about abortion), the child isn't responsible for how it was conceived, whether through rape, incest, unprotected sex, etc. and shouldn't have to die because women don't want any reminder of their violation around them. That is what adoptions are for, so that if some women can't afford to raise the child or just don't want it around because of how it was conceived, they can give it to someone who can afford to raise it and doesn't care how it was conceived, but only cares about their wanting a child and loving it!! You and all these other people who say "Get rid of it because it was conceived through rape or incest!" wouldn't want anyone to have gotten rid of you if you had been conceived through those things, and allowing unborn children to be born, despite how they were conceived, is just doing unto others as you would have others do unto you!! This doesn't only concern men who have fathered children, but all of us, because it is a societal and moral issue and much bigger than only the fathers of these children. Women wanting to get rid of any reminders of their violation (in this case, unborn children) are like Ella May Ewell in To Kill A Mockingbird, who Atticus Finch said wanted to get rid of Tom Robinson and put Tom Robinson behind her because he was a daily reminder of her "sin" of kissing a black man and so falsely accused him of "raping" her. But neither Tom Robinson nor any black or other man falsely accused of "rape" or an innocent unborn child should be gotten rid of because women don't want any reminders of their real or imagined violations around them, instead of being left alone to go on living!! That's putting women's rights and convenience above other people's right to even live!! You don't know if this child conceived through rape or incest or born with Downs Syndrome or deaf or with some other birth defect or born in poverty might not contribute something valuable to the world and make it a better place, as did Charles Chaplin, Beethoven, and many others, and so should be given their chance to live and make that contribution!

  1. Nicolas Zart's Avatar Nicolas Zart

    I always find it fascinating that these Earthly laws are usually heralded by men. If men could get pregnant and even raped, would they still feel the same?

    1. Sharon Veronica Meixsell's Avatar Sharon Veronica Meixsell

      Thank you for posting this. I certainly wouldn't mind if you posted this again and in capital letters. This really needs to be said over and over. Maybe these men need to wear those electronic labor simulators to even experience the pain of childbirth. Men that have tried these have had their eyes opened and found a new respect for women.

      I find it sad that men that are ministers (here on this site) feel the need to comment with such ignorant and inhumane views. A minister should not hold nasty comments such as a woman needs to keep it to her self, get a coat hanger and someone to help and go sit over a toliet. And the fact that they all suggest that it is okay for the rape and incest victim to be forced to have the baby...

      Now, they are looking at banning the morning after (abortion) pill...Where will it end??

  1. P. Keith Benefiel's Avatar P. Keith Benefiel

    Ex Senator from Wyoming, Alan Simpson was right. Men should have no vote on the subject. I believe that restricting a woman's right to make decisions about her own body violates Amendments 1,4,8,9,10 and 13 of the Constitution. Free universal birth control for all would be a help. Cheers

  1. Dr. Bob Thomas's Avatar Dr. Bob Thomas

    I read: Psalm 139:13-16 NASBS For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb. [14] I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well. [15] My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth; [16] Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.

    This tells me that at conception, it is not just a collection of cells that have come together. It is a life, and it is in the process of being created. To me, this tells me that The Lord is involved with every moment of my life starting at conception and continuing to my final judgement.

    Hebrews 9:27 NASBS And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

    I am very concerned with the incredibly large number of abortions done in this country every year.

    I am confused when a person is charged with two counts of murder if a pregnant woman is killed along with her unborn child. In this instance, the court sees two deaths. The pregnant woman, and the unborn child. However, that same court sees no murder if only the unborn child dies. That makes no sense to me.

    The large number of abortions does not come close to the number of reported rapes that lead to conception. The same is true with incest. Even when the two are combined, still that count is well beneath the number of abortions that take place.

    I understand the position of the woman who was raped. Either by a stranger or a family member. I cannot condone murder to be justified by it.

    For me, this law is a step in the right direction.

    The next step, I think, should then be to take the funding for the abortion clinics and put it toward helping to pay for the birth of the unwanted child, and counseling for the mother, as well as care for that child as it grows. Direct it towards social programs that help to pay for education, healthcare, childcare, and whatever else is necessary to help both the mother and the child have the best possible life that they can. Jesus told us that we will always have the poor with us. We are also commanded to love each other as we love God. So let's finally show that. From the start to the finish. And perhaps, just maybe, the rapes, the incest, the unwanted births will decrease. Add to all that prayer and perhaps they will vanish completely. It would certainly be worth trying. We have to do a better job of caring for each other. We have nothing to loose and everything to gain. Let it start here.

    1. Thom's Avatar Thom

      Then Dr. Bob I ask you, are you ready to adopt every single child of which is born due to this law and take financial responsibility for them. Because your political party refuses to fund the Government agencies where these children tend to end up. So I ask, are you prepared to adopt many?

      1. Dr. Bob Thomas's Avatar Dr. Bob Thomas

        No, not every single one. I will do my share. Let's go together and we both can do this. I do not mind adopting another child. I will make room at my table.

        1. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

          Greetings Dr. Thomas,

          I do understand your confusion and if I may, murder is defined as “the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another”. Irrespective of the number of abortions, it has been decided that “women” have the right to choose whether or not they want to remain pregnant. Although you may feel that abortion is murder, abortion is legal; therefore, the procedure is not unlawful. In other words, a person has the legal right to do what some consider morally wrong (Leif, 2021).

          If you and your significant other do not believe that abortion is right for you, please refrain from getting one. I am also concerned that the states that infringe on these rights seem to have no moral integrity when that child becomes an adult that commits a crime and is put to death. If we were to apply your reasoning, then this would also constitute “murder”. You have your opinion that you wish to be respected, then we must also respect other’s choices as well. People have the right to act as immorally as the law allows; it is not suitable for us to force them to do otherwise, provided their choice does not harm others. Please, before claiming that abortion harms a child, a zygote, fetus, or embryo is yet to be a child, and a person’s autonomy or rights should not be contingent on their physical status.

          I appreciate the goodwill you have expressed and something to consider; if God has made the world as you claim, then it must be already perfect the way it is currently. I respect your opinion; however, the new Texas law is a complete subjugation of a women’s right to choose what is best for her, so it is the wrong direction.

          Take care,

          Leif, W. (2021, February 18). Rights. Retrieved from Stanford encyclopedia of philosophy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/rights/

          1. Nicole Carroll's Avatar Nicole Carroll

            Thank you Minister. Perfectly said.

          2. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

            Greetings Minister Wilson, The purely human law does, for the moment, say that abortion is legal, until Roe v. Wade is overturned by the Supreme Court. But if we are only going by what human laws and courts say is legal and that matters more than what is morally right, which you and your ilk say doesn't matter at all, the Holocaust of the Jews and other "inferior" and "subhuman" races was in accord with Nazi racial laws in Germany. The killing of priests and nuns and Marie Antoinette and all others whom they wanted to behead was in perfect accord with the laws and will of the French Revolution masters. Lynchings of and violence and discrimination against black people were in accord with the laws (or what the lawmen turned a blind eye to) and social customs of the South! The crimes of the Soviet Union and other Communist dictatorships were and still are in accord with their merely human laws! The list goes on and on! Human laws come and go and their correctness is determined by their conformity to the law of God, as it actually is and not interpreted and distorted by human beings again, as during the Inquisition, Crusades, "holy" wars, and witch burnings. The actual law of God is eternal! So, you might want to consider all of these other examples of human laws before you say that "human law is all that matters".The Nazis and others have defined already grown human beings and young children out of membership in the human race by calling them "vermin, enemies of the revolution", etc. So, of course, that can be done even easier to unborn children, who can't speak for or defend themselves at all, by calling them "zygotes, fetuses, tissue", etc. But their being called or considered "non-human" no more makes that true about them than it did or does about Jews, black people, Mexicans, Asians, Italians or any other objects of prejudice. The difference between grown people's being sentenced to capital punishment for the crime of murder and the abortion of unborn children is that the unborn haven't killed anyone, but only, God forbid!!, dared to inconvenience some people by their existence, since their convenience and comfort are the only things that these people care about!! People don't have the right to act as immorally as the law allows, provided their behavior doesn't harm other people, since they never believe that they are harming other people, as all the above examples show, and it is left up to other people to come in and forceably show them that they don't have the right to do that to other people, as during the Civil War, W.W. II, etc. Abortion doesn't only concern the woman's body alone because a body inside her body isn't just her body. The world isn't perfect the way that it is or in accord with the will of God, as is evidenced by all of this wrong thinking and actions in the world, which aren't the will of God (except a "God" that you make up after your own image to suit yourself!). Why do I need to explain all of this to a supposed fellow "Minister"? The new Texas law is a complete defense of the right of the unborn to be born, instead of only considering the woman's right to do whatever she wants with "her own body", at the cost of the life of the other body inside her!!!, and so is the right direction!! Take care and stay well.

            1. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

              Greetings Mr. Partin,

              I appreciate the time and energy that you have put forth in your response. Generally, when people resort to whataboutisms or a Tu Quoque fallacy, it suggests that they do not have a good argument about the merits of their claim. This, however, is not always the case, provided that the circumstances are sufficiently similar (Aikin, 2008).

              You seem to be proposing that because of the horrendous treatment of people throughout history, women, in particular, should be forced to carry their pregnancy to term. Yet, you fail to recognize the inherent hypocrisy of that logic through most of your assertions.

              You acknowledge that a woman has a right to terminate a pregnancy because of Roe vs. Wade, yet you applaud unscrupulous legal efforts by some states to undermine those rights because you personally disagree with them.

              You seem to acknowledge that the world is not perfect by your own standards, and God should not be held responsible for creating or allowing atrocities to exist. However, this plainly suggests that God is either feckless or powerless to make a better world, or it just does not care.

              Moreover, you also believe that women do not have the right to consider these less than ideal conditions for choosing whether to remain pregnant and thereby be forced to bring children into an imperfect world against their free will and ability to decide for themselves.

              You are okay with the prospect of forcing women to have children, but you never once mentioned if those children would receive the love and compassion necessary to lead a healthy and productive life. Ironically, children that have not been loved are supported throughout their lives are more likely to hurt others and possibly be put to death for their crimes (Corman, Noonan, Reichman, & Soicher, 2011; Corsini & Wedding, 2014). Therefore, to oppose abortion but support the death penalty is logically incoherent.

              Abortion concerns the woman because she must be the one to consent to be pregnant and emotionally invested in the care and welfare of that child. You sir, cannot catch a pregnancy like a cold. So if she chooses to terminate her pregnancy or become a parent, only one of those choices could actually affect you personally.

              Unlike the current Covid-19 pandemic, which is highly transmissible and apparently quite deadly for hundreds of thousands of Americans, but based on your reasoning, I would probably bet that you are opposed to masks or vaccine mandates claiming it is their body and their choice.

              Moreover, these circumstances are not sufficiently similar. They lack intellectual integrity, which is most noticeable when you claim that human laws are not as important as God’s laws as you wait for the Supreme Court to make an ideological and politically motivated decision to strip women of their right to choose. If the Texas law was legitimately a defense for the unborn, why would the state rely on deputized citizens to enforce constitutional laws?

              Peace be with you,

              Minister Wilson

              References Aikin, S. F. (2008). Tu quoque arguments and the significance of hypocrisy. Informal Logic, 28(2), 155–169. https://doi.org/10.22329/il.v28i2.543 Corman, H., Noonan, K., Reichman, N. E., & Soicher, O. S. (2011). Life Shocks and Crime: A Test of the” Turning Point” Hypothesis. Demography 48.3, 1177-1202. Corsini, R. J., & Wedding, D. (2014). Current Psychotherapies 10th Edition. Belmont, CA: Cengage Learning.

              1. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Greetings again Minister Wilson. You fail to recognize the inherent hypocrisy and illogic of people whose very existence depended on their mothers' not aborting them saying that other people's mothers should abort them and doing unto those unborn children what was not done to you! That isn't doing unto others as you would have others do unto you. That may not be your pseudo-sophisticated and pseudo-intellectual version of "religion" or "morality", but it is just basic logic, common sense, and moral teaching. Unaborted people can't consistently or reasonably state that other people should be aborted. It's a self-contradictory position for you or anyone to take. Life doesn't begin only at birth because without this period of preparation before birth, if it is cut short, birth can't happen, and so everyone, including you, have to respect that preparatory stage of life in others, the same as it was respected for you You believe that only human laws should matter in this case of a woman's rights over her body, while condemning, as I do, other unjust human laws throughout history, but once you have opened that door of only human laws' deciding our actions or mattering, you can't, then, pick and choose which laws you will have because you like them and which you won't have because you don't like them, since the door has been opened for all of them indiscriminately. When Pandora's box is opened, everything is coming out! There are people who want with all their hearts to have these children that other people are rejecting and no shortage of homes and loving parents for those children. So, give those unwanted children to those parents. We even do that much for puppies and kittens and give them to other people when we can't take care of them ourselves, and don't abort them in their mothers' wombs. Why don't unborn children deserve as much as, if not far more than, we do for puppies and kittens? Abortion, clearly, doesn't only concern the woman's body because a body inside her body isn't her body. If she should be able to do whatever she wants with that other body inside her just because it is dependent on her for life, then, consistently and following this "logic", she should be able to do whatever she wants with born children outside of her body, since they are also dependent on her for life, and kill them, too, if she wants and they are a burden or inconvenience for her. As did Susan Smith, I believe, in Texas, who drowned her children in a lake by driving her truck into it with them inside and blamed a black man for the crime. Or other mothers who have killed born children. That is the Pandora's box that we open by saying that women's rights over their bodies or those who are dependent on them supercede those persons' rights or all other rights. The definition of freedom in all other cases is that you have the right to do whatever you wish until you impose upon another person or interfere with their rights. Abortion definitely exceeds the limits of that definition, since it imposes upon the right of the unborn to life and interferes with that right, which is the most basic right of all and that upon which all other rights are founded. The world's not being perfect is our doing by our doing whatever is "right" in our own eyes and ignoring God and what He wants, since God is love, as the Scripture says. That isn't God's fault, since He isn't going to force people to do right and stop doing what is wrong, and make that decision for us and contradict free will. The death penalty for those who have murdered other people is just giving them back what they gave to other people, but abortion is murdering innocent unborn children, and so there is no reasonable comparison between the two. Yet, even capital punishment for murderers should be reconsidered in a consistently pro-life society. Why would the State of Texas rely on deputies or deputized citizens to enforce constitutional laws? Why are law enforcement required to enforce any laws? Because they won't be enforced without them! That's why!

              2. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Greetings once again, Mr. Partin,

                I can tell that you are struggling with some of the concepts that I presented. The “Golden Rule” or do unto others as you would have them do to you.

                This is a form of ethical reductionism that appears as a commonsense rationale because it requires a nonrealistic view of the world you already conceded to be as imperfect (Puka, 2021). Generally, people think that love of others should entail the sacrifice of self-interest, so the practicality of the Golden Rule is merely lip-service for those not practicing it.

                For example, let us suppose for a moment that you (John) are a young pregnant woman. And for reasons that remain intimate and personal to yourself, you do not desire to start a family. Now, would it be okay with you if the state or government forced you to carry that pregnancy?

                Please explain how you as a woman (john) would feel about your place in such a society. Do you have rights over your bodily autonomy? What class of citizens are you? Are you being punished for being a woman and having sex? So if you are going to invoke the Golden Rule, please make sure you apply that rule to yourself first.

                Peace be with you, (Less emotion, more thinking)

                Take care, Minister Wilson

                References

                Puka, B. (2021, October 12). The Golden Rule. Retrieved from Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy: https://iep.utm.edu/goldrule/

              3. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Minister" Wilson. I'm not at all struggling with the concepts that you presented, but actually understand them far better than you do! You yourself advocate the Golden Rule when you say that we should put ourselves in pregnant women's positions, who don't want to give birth, and ask what would we want done for us in their positions. That sounds incredibly close to "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you" or will pass for it until it actually comes along! So, are you also practicing a form of "ethical reductionism" by asking that question and making the assumption that we should just go along with you on that or is the Golden Rule part of your thinking process, too, and just fairness and common sense to everyone, including you? It certainly sounds like the latter! The world is imperfect because of people's not practicing the Golden Rule of doing unto others as they would have others do unto them and loving their neighbors as themselves.The solution to that isn't to give up practicing the Golden Rule and loving our neighbors as ourselves altogether as "unrealistic", but to practice them even more! That isn't emotional thinking, but obviously reasonable thinking, since it is the only solution for the world's hatefulness, as even you really know, though you don't admit it! Racists should do unto others as they would have others do unto them, as should muggers, serial killers, wife and child beaters and abusers, and all other criminals, and not lynch or discriminate against black people or hate all white people or do these other things that they wouldn't want done to them. Besides, abortion isn't the only option for a woman's getting rid of a pregnancy that she doesn't want, since there is also embryonic transplant and taking the fetus from a woman who doesn't want it and putting it into a woman who does want it. When even heart transplants and kidney transplants and other organ transplants can happen, fetus transplants can also happen (and have already happened). That way, the unborn child doesn't have to die just because it was conceived in a woman who wants to kill it and she gets to be rid of it from her womb and a woman who will love and care for the child gets to have it! Problem solved for everyone! When an embryonic transplant isn't possible, she should just put up with the pregnancy and give the child up for adoption the second that it is born and think about someone other than herself, for a change.

              4. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Greetings Mr. Partin,

                You know that nothing is ever found if it is not searched for first. Throughout this entire discussion, you have attempted ad hominem attacks;

                Your response, “But if we are only going by what human laws and courts say is legal and that matters more than what is morally right, which you and your ilk say doesn’t matter at all, the Holocaust of the Jews and other “inferior” and “subhuman” races was in accord with Nazi racial laws in Germany”.

                You created straw men arguments;

                Your response, The actual law of God is eternal! So, you might want to consider all of these other examples of human laws before you say that “human law is all that matters”. (Yet, I have not once stated that human law is all that matters)...

                And you have failed to address relevant questions about your reasoning, for example;

                Question by me...If the Texas law was legitimately a defense for the unborn, why would the state rely on deputized citizens to enforce constitutional laws?

                Your response, Why are law enforcement required to enforce any laws? Because they won’t be enforced without them! That’s why! In each case, you seem to struggle with the broader concepts as articulated. And this is why I am concerned that you then go on to claim that;

                You are not at all struggling with the concepts that I presented, and actually understand them far better than (I) do...I would disagree. John, you brought up the Golden Rule when you asserted that; I “...fail to recognize the inherent hypocrisy and illogic of people whose very existence depended on their mothers’ not aborting them saying that other people’s mothers should abort them and doing unto those unborn children what was not done to you! That isn’t doing unto others as you would have others do unto you. That may not be your pseudo-sophisticated and pseudo-intellectual version of “religion” or “morality”, but it is just basic logic, common sense, and moral teaching”.

                Now, once again, you are arguing against a straw man by pretending that the Golden Rule was something I brought up initially rather than addressing your lack of willingness to apply it to yourself and your general mischaracterization of its usage as a motivating factor for changing behavior.

                John this is your Comment; You yourself advocate the Golden Rule when you say that we should put ourselves in pregnant women’s positions, who don’t want to give birth, and ask what would we want done for us in their positions.

                For complete clarification, I want you (John Partin) to put yourself in a woman’s shoes...not others just you...

                And I would like you to explain how you as a woman (john) would feel about your place in such a society. Do you have rights over your bodily autonomy? What class of citizens are you? Are you being punished for being a woman and having sex? (try to be honest)

                Your continued deflection indicates that you have not even considered the Golden Rule yourself, so why should anyone else be motivated to act any differently than you?

                Therefore, a basis for opposition to abortion is not established by simply claiming because God said so...No, one has to believe as you do, and why should they have to?

                Moreover, your reasoning can be used to condemn God as well. Is your depiction of God not influential enough to change or alter human behavior, is it not powerful enough to stop crime, or maybe it just does not care, or as you put it, it is too much of an inconvenience for God to do something about abortion except through menial, puny, human laws, that are nefariously designed to create a second class of submissive female citizens.

                So you have so much to say about what a woman should do; I was simply wondering if you were a woman, what rationale would you have for following John D. Partin’s moral beliefs over your own, why would you?

                The best argument you have stated so far is “cus”...

                Therefore, if you respond, please answer the questions I have asked you without biblical quotes, personal attacks, straw men, or ideological spin. Not all women want an abortion; some do because of reasons ranging from a sexual assault or the mother’s life, but it is her choice, not your choice.

                I hope you find the answers you are looking for; abortion is not at all similar to the situations you have described, or else God should be considered a murderer as well for allowing miscarriages since it is too inconvenient for it to stop that from occuring naturally.

                See, Mr. Partin, I am not trying to change your mind, I am attempting to help you understand the other side, if that is what you truly seek.

                Take care,

                Minister Wilson

              5. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Minister" Wilson, a woman's rights over her own body, even when there is no other body inside her to consider, aren't absolute, since suicide, which really does only concern the woman and her body alone, except for the pain and grief that she will cause to those who love her by that act, is illegal and if she doesn't succeed in killing herself, she will, at the least, be put into a psychiatric facility for treatment and overcoming of her suicidal tendencies and desires. Drug use and addiction by the woman also only concerns what she does to her own body, but is also dependent on her obtaining illegal substances and will put her in prison if she is arrested for that practice. Cult membership for a woman also only concerns what she does to herself, but concerned family and friends will still intervene and have her deprogrammed out of love for her and fear for her mental health. Being a traitor to her country and committing espionage for an enemy government is the woman's choice for her life and over her own physical body, too, but will also land her in prison or even get her executed, if she is arrested for it, since that also concerns the security of the larger society. So, women's rights over their own bodies aren't absolute or unconditional, and when they are restricted in all these other cases that do, initially, anyway, only concern them and their own bodies, why shouldn't they be restricted even more so, logically and consistently, in a matter that involves another body inside her? This is just common sense and rationality about the matter.

              6. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Greetings Mr. Partin,

                So, you have chosen an ideological spin...

                Suicide, drug usage, cult membership, or espionage have nothing to do with a person’s right to autonomy. I appreciate your perspective because it reveals a lot more about how you think. It appears that in your mind, women are, for the most part, second-class citizens that should not have absolute autonomy over their body or any control over their choices for what would be best for them.

                Each of your examples, John, could be applied to any person irrespective of their sex.

                You fail to consider the mental health aspects encompassing suicide, which is also related to drug dependence (Corsini & Wedding, 2014). Cult membership is based on the in-group and outgroup dynamics, which can be seen today in many religious and political supporters.

                Therefore, if we were to apply your common sense and rational manner, John, no one has absolute rights over their own body or agency over their own choices, and that would include any unborn humans...

                You seem to think that writing the words common sense and rationality somehow makes everything you’re saying make sense. As I stated before, whataboutisms must provide circumstances that are sufficiently similar (Aikin, 2008). You have not come close to accomplishing this.

                Thus, it leads us back to the beginning. So, using your logic, you do not have absolute rights over your own body and do not have any agency over your own choices also, so what gives John Partin the right to speak on this subject now, especially when you are naturally immune from ever being pregnant?

                Take care,

                Minister Wilson

                References

                Aikin, S. F. (2008). Tu quoque arguments and the significance of hypocrisy. Informal Logic, 28(2), 155–169. https://doi.org/10.22329/il.v28i2.543

                Corsini, R. J., & Wedding, D. (2014). Current Psychotherapies 10th Edition. Belmont, CA: Cengage Learning.

              7. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Minister" Wilson (if "Wilson" is even actually your last name and you aren't being dishonest about that, too, as you are about being a minister!). Suicide, drug usage, cult membership, and espionage are, most definitely, personal choices of some women and their autonomy over themselves, the same as some women's choice to have abortions, and don't stop being personal choices and autonomy of these women over themselves just because some men can make those same choices of committing suicide, using drugs, joining cults or committing acts of espionage. That's like saying that because some men like certain movies, going to restaurants, reading books, traveling or doing any other activity that women can't also choose these same activities for themselves, too, and be exercising their personal autonomy as well as men do. Women's exercising their personal autonomy in all of these other cases, the same as men do, and not only in choosing to have abortions, in no way makes them second class citizens or not have autonomy over themselves, unless men doing these same things, except for having abortions or getting pregnant, are also second class citizens or being denied their personal autonomy. But just as there are social ramifications and consequences for the larger society to suicide, drug abuse, cult membership, and espionage, and these things don't really concern only those people who are doing them, so there are social ramifications and consequences for the larger society in some women's abortions of their unborn children and those don't only concern the women themselves. 63 million unborn children exterminated since Roe v. Wade is definitely a very large social consequence of their "purely private matter between women and their doctors" and affects the whole of society, when even 1/10th of that number in exterminated Jews and even less than that of other exterminated people in "ethnic cleansings" in Bosnia and Africa have been of importance to all of society, not just the people doing the exterminating or those getting exterminated!! Why would these other Holocausts be of such concern to the world, while a far greater Holocaust than all the rest of them put together, of unborn children, is dismissed and ignored and said to be "no big deal or anything for society to be concerned about" and "just a matter between women and their doctors", except that this society has, the same as the Nazis did, defined these victims of genocide out of "actually being human" and so "it doesn't matter what happens to them"?!!! Why aren't you and all other people who profess to "care about human rights" and are appalled by these other Holocausts equally appalled by this Holocaust of the unborn and fighting to stop it, instead of only pro-life people's being appalled by it and fighting to stop it, except that you have deadened your consciences about this matter and don't have any human sympathy or compassion any more?!!! My not just now and throughout my posts to you "providing circumstances that are sufficiently similar or even coming close to accomplishing that", according to you, anyway, and my not actually doing so are two entirely different things, since you are hardly a realistic or credible judge in these matters, considering your own very bizarre statements. Just my writing the words "common sense" and "rationality" don't make my statements common sense or rational, since they prove themselves to be such just fine all by themselves, and I'm merely noticing and admitting that that is what they are doing, while you choose to deny the obvious and reality and exercise your personal autonomy, in that way!! I do have autonomy and agency over my own person, with consequences for that, unlike you who "think" that there are no consequences to your actions, and that is why I'm speaking out against this Holocaust on the unborn, which you choose to ignore and be indifferent to!! Take much better care of your soul and heart than that!!

              8. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Mr. Partin

                For goodness sake...

                Your writings are simply silly and have nothing to do with the Texas law issue, and your ramblings do not have anything to do with the legal right to have an abortion.

                Please answer the questions.

                If the Texas law was legitimately a defense for the unborn, why would the state rely on deputized citizens to enforce constitutional laws?

                Please explain how you as a woman (John) would feel about your place in such a society being forced to carry a human baby to term?

                Would you have rights over your bodily autonomy?

                What class of citizen would you be?

                Are you being punished for being a woman and having sex?

                Thus, it leads us back to the beginning. So, using your logic, you do not have absolute rights over your own body and do not have any agency over your own choices also, so what gives John Partin the right to speak on this subject now, especially when you are naturally immune from ever being pregnant?

                You do not seem capable to answer these simple questions; therefore, it is no wonder the issue and concepts elude you.

                There is no unborn Holocaust, John. And if so, then your God has killed, allowed, or is entirely powerless to stop billions of human embryos, zygotes, and fetuses from suffering “murderous” miscarriages.

                I will no longer respond to intellectual dribble, and you have had several attempts to make your case, so either make your point or kindly move on...

                Take care,

                Minister Wilson

              9. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Minister Wilson", 63 million unborn children's being exterminated since Roe v. Wade most definitely has a great deal to do with and is the central point and consequence of the abortion issue, as can be clearly seen by everyone else here and even actually by you, though you refuse to admit it because that would undermine your "case" for "pro-choice" (which is a misnomer because always choosing abortion isn't giving the other option of life a chance, as actual choice requires). 63 million unborn children's being exterminated most definitely makes that a Holocaust, since it is more than 10 times the amount of Jews who were exterminated by the Nazis, and so if it weren't a Holocaust, neither would the Holocaust of the Jews be a Holocaust, but they both are Holocausts!! The reason why you deny that the extermination of 63 million unborn children (and growing every day!!!) is a Holocaust is because, again, that undermines your "case" for "pro-choice", the same as Nazis today and their apologists deny that there was a Holocaust of the Jews, since that also undermines their idiotology (I mean, ideology) and puts it in a bad light!! Any mass extermination of living persons, before birth or after birth, is a Holocaust!! That is just obviously true, as even you actually know, and unborn children don't stop being human beings just because you deny that they are such, in order to make room for your "legitimization" of their extermination!! Once again, for the tenth time, actually, God doesn't murder the unborn in miscarriages because it is unthinking women's bodies, the same as the rest of unthinking nature, that kill those babies, since nature is corrupted and God isn't going to force nature, anymore than force human beings, to do what is right and avoid what is wrong and make that decision for them. So, once again, there is no reasonable comparison between miscarriages and abortions, since abortions are conscious choices of women against their babies' lives. Your dismissal of my writings to you as "silly" and "having nothing to do with the Texas law or abortion" and "dribble", in order to avoid answering my questions and points against you, doesn't actually make them "silly", "dribble", or "irrelevant", since your own writings prove that you aren't really a good judge of any of that!! I have answered your questions already, though you were and are incapable of understanding my answers to you, but will try again now. Women aren't being punished for having sex, but only being asked to have it responsibly and not take their irresponsibility out on their unborn children and murder them because of that. Women aren't being denied their autonomy over their own bodies because bodies inside their bodies aren't their bodies and those bodies inside them need and deserve autonomy over themselves, too, but can't speak up for or defend themselves, which is left up to we adult human beings to do for them. The state of Texas requires deputized citizens to enforce its law for protection of the unborn because they need all the protection that they can get, since there are you and so many others out to kill them, and regular law enforcement needs their assistance, having enough duties of their own already. Why were freedom riders required for enforcing and monitoring black people's right to vote in the South during the Civil Rights protests and era? Because, in that case, the regular law enforcement weren't going to do anything about enforcing it, and it's some of that here now, too Women aren't being made second class citizens by being made responsible for their own actions and not murdering unborn children, unless they can only be "first class citizens" by being irresponsible and murdering their unborn children. I have answered your stupid questions, which you still won't be able to understand or accept as answers, but that is your problem, not anything wrong with my answers to you!! I won't respond to your "intellectual" DRIBBLE!! and EVASIVENESS!! any more!! When you ever have something truly intelligent and responsive to say (for a change!!), and can answer my questions and points about your amorality and dead conscience in my post below, especially, and this and all my other posts to you, reply again or else don't waste my time!!

              10. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Minister Wilson", why do you only have any concern at all for some women's "right" to murder their unborn children (and the semantics and euphemisms of what you call it don't matter, but only the act itself!), but absolutely no concern, compassion, sympathy or mercy for those 63 million exterminated unborn children since Roe v. Wade? Doesn't that appear, even to you with your deadened conscience, to be very disproportionately unbalanced and lopsided, when these children have thousands of times more at stake in this matter and have been subjected to far more cruelty and barbarity than have any of these women that you favor over them?!! Has it occurred at all to you that your same kind of deadened conscience and amorality are what allowed the Nazis to murder 6 million Jews and all the other people that they murdered without any qualms or disturbance to them at all, and what allowed white slavemasters to buy and sell other human beings and humiliate and torture and kill them if they displeased them, and allowed slave traders to capture and sell millions of these human beings, and allowed white racists to lynch black people and burn down their homes and churches and discriminate against them for four hundred years?!! And has allowed all the other examples of man's inhumanity to man or does your deadened conscience keep you from understanding, seeing, and admitting to all of that?!! You and all the other people here who share your view about abortion and indifference to the unborn children's deaths and misery?!! How, then, are all of you people any different than all of these other amoral and conscienceless people who have committed or condoned all of these other atrocities in history?!! What more will it ever take to get through to you the immorality and the deadened conscience state of your position and attitude than was ever said or done to these other people, and it still didn't get through to them?!! What will it ever take to wake you up?!! If even seeds for growing vegetables on farms or flowers were put into the ground, and then immediately dug up again and not given the chance to start growing, what sense would that make and how would we ever have the vegetables or flowers from those seeds? But that is the practice when it comes to seeds of men planted in women's wombs and not allowing them to grow and be born, and makes no more sense than digging up seeds for vegetables and flowers just planted and not allowing them to grow!! Why shouldn't unborn children be given even more consideration than we give to vegetable or flower seeds and be allowed to be born? We wouldn't care if seeds in the ground were planted by rapists or incestuous men, since that has nothing to do with the seeds themselves, and it has nothing to do with the seeds in women's wombs, either!! Fortunately, for our having vegetables in the stores to buy and eat and flowers to buy and put in vases, the seeds for them aren't put into some women's wombs, if they could grow them safely inside them, or we would very quickly have a major shortage of these vegetables and flowers, due to these women's aborting them, too, because of their discomfort and inconvenience. Aborting the unborn for those or other health reasons makes no more sense!!

              11. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Greetings Mr. Partin,

                The “pro-life” movement is a farce and far more synonymous with an anti-abortion group than anything else; it is not some force for good due to its hypocritical nature and reductionist moral values.

                For example, this “pro-life” idea represents a distorted group of ideas that usually see no hypocrisy in supporting the death penalty or wanting to reduce the social safety net. This distorted mindset also wants to impose religious restrictions on gay parents for adoption (the very thing you claim to support); they oppose masks and vaccine mandates and are generally anti-immigration. Pro-live advocates typically enjoy whitewashing history for the sake of not making their kids “feel bad,” and they always tend to advocate for some form of religious edict through government intervention regarding isolated human behavior (e.g., sodomy, gay marriage, or just simply kneeling during the national anthem).

                Some people choose to get an abortion, some people think about abortion and choose adoption, some people cannot afford more children or are not psychologically ready to have a child, and some people have health-related concerns such as severe complications from preeclampsia. These are the characteristics of “actual choice”, so once again, your thinking reflects abortion-related circumstances in terms of black or white without any nuance or situation mindfulness for other people, only fetuses.

                Your comment about;

                Why shouldn’t unborn children be given even more consideration than we give to vegetable or flower seeds and be allowed to be born? We wouldn’t care if seeds in the ground were planted by rapists or incestuous men, since that has nothing to do with the seeds themselves, and it has nothing to do with the seeds in women’s wombs, either!!

                Women are not “flower pots”, John for men to go around and just plant seeds into. Again, your reductionist pattern of thinking in terms of black or white is remarkably inept and devoid of human compassion. This is most likely because you, John, are immune from having something forcefully implanted in you.

                And please, stop referring to abortion rights in terms of the Holocaust. This reveals a genuine ignorance about the harm done to convolute a serious issue that affects women based on religious dogma and idealistic zealotry.

                Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by removal or expulsion of an embryo or fetus. An abortion that occurs without intervention is known as a miscarriage or “spontaneous abortion” and occurs in approximately 30 to 40 percent of pregnancies.

                So, please provide some references for your claim of 63 million. Because that number seems way off since abortions have been occurring for as long as women could get pregnant.

                And John, if God is responsible for “designing” a woman’s body, and you consider abortion murder, then God is a murderer using your rationality. If a woman or man has a functioning brain, John, and a brain requires a body John, there is no such thing as an unthinking body.

                At this point, I am going to yield because to have a serious conversation about abortion rights regarding the Texas law, a person has to be able to understand situational nuisances and basic forms of logic. Unfortunately, you have shown that these concepts are above your current level of thinking and comprehension.

                Perhaps, one day keep working at it, less Nazi’s and more consideration for born human women, not to mention the realistic prospects of scarcity.

                Here is a mental exercise for you;

                If you knew that your mother would die in your birth, would you still want to be born? (Try to be honest with yourself)...

                Take care and peace be with you and yours,

                Minister Wilson

              12. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Mr, Wilson, since "Minister" doesn't fit you at all and just anyone who wants to call himself or herself a "minister" and be called such hasn't earned that title just by wanting that, but has to actually demonstrate, in more than their own or flunkies' eyes, ministerial behavior and thinking. Pro-choice is inconsistent with an actual minister. For you or anyone to say that the pro-life movement is a farce just because people in it don't all agree is insane and ridiculous, since no group anywhere is without differing opinions and agendas within it! By your standard, the pro-choice movement would also be hypocritical and about reductionist values, since it isn't a monolith or everyone in lockstep there, either. As long as our central focus is about saving the lives of unborn children, no matter what other things some people in our movement want to promote, the pro-life movement isn't hypocritical or about reductionist values, anymore than you are! That's just being human, not hypocritical. You can play all the semantic games about what abortion is and it's "not being a Holocaust" that you want, just as the Nazis played those same games during their Holocaust of the Jews by calling the concentration camps "districts of Jewish relocation", while you call abortion clinics "health centers" and abortion "women's reproductive health and rights". But those are only games that you are playing with yourselves, since the babies are still just as dead after those atrocities, no matter what you call them!! It doesn't stop being a Holocaust just because you are a Holocaust denier of that Holocaust on the unborn, just as Nazis are Holocaust deniers of their Holocaust of the Jews!! You can very easily prove to yourself if bodies do any thinking on their own, apart from the brains inside their heads, by going to your local morgue and seeing if there are any bodies of deceased people walking around there when their brains have died. Unless you are living in a horror movie, there are no dead bodies thinking for themselves and moving around on their own. So, they are unthinking, while the brain is alive, too, since only the brain does any thinking, though we could never tell that from you and your pro-choice ilk!! Your not figuring out for yourself that only the brain thinks, while the body is unthinking, is more evidence of your not understanding basic forms of logic. You also need to learn how to spell "nuances", which isn't spelled "nuisances", even if you have more experience, being stuck with yourself all the time, with nuisances than anything else!! Once again, God isn't responsible for what unthinking bodies or unthinking nature does, since they are corrupt and not following His will, and isn't going to stop them from doing wrong or force them to do right, anymore than He will for people, since that would be His deciding for them, instead of them deciding for themselves. You yourself only think in black and white, as you accuse me of doing, when you say that a woman's only options, if giving birth might result in her death, is either die herself or kill the child. But I have already told you about the third option of embryonic transplants, which would allow both the mother and the child to live. No child should have to die because it was conceived in a woman who wants to kill it, when it can be transferred to a woman who will love it and care for it. How can you condemn. me or anyone else for "black and white or either/or thinking" when you are doing that yourself?!! This also answers your question to me about what I would say to my mother if she told me that her giving birth would kill her, and I say this to all women in that situation: get your baby embryonically transplanted into another woman of the same blood type. Problem solved!!! And nobody has to die for it and such transplants have already been done. You are the one who isn't capable of a serious conversation here, as your not understanding that bodies don't think on their own and other obvious and logical things here prove!! Unborn babies are also human beings, the same as born human beings are. They shouldn't have to pay with their lives because of how they were conceived (through rape, incest, etc.), since that isn't their fault and shouldn't be taken out on them!! Perhaps, one day keep working on it, admitting to more of your Nazi attitude toward the unborn and more balanced thinking, which includes the unborn and not just born people!! Here's hoping that you will get there!!

      2. Woodrow's Avatar Woodrow

        Thom, then you are ready to kill every single child. So I ask, are you prepared to kill every child and use their DNA to make more vaccines and drugs.

    2. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

      First of all there are already far too many humans on this planet. We are fast approaching 9 billion. Unless you actually yearn for a future in which the entire human race is packed together the way they are in Tokyo, you may want to rethink your view on uncontrolled proliferation of our species.

      Second of all, the fact you are too lacking in folds in the brain to understand why a woman has autonomy of her body, and that unless she deems it so, a fetus actually qualifies as a parasite. You seem to suggest you have an insular view of faith traditions, that means you can not be a minister in good standing here, we are a secular based ministry and as such any suggestion that your personal faith and beliefs should hold sway over others identifies you as someone who is actual evil.

      Understand this now and never forget it, if you think forcing a victim of rape to carry the product of that rape to term is an act of actual evil. In The U.S. we hold personal liberty as sacred above all faith systems. You seek to enslave women and as such are an enemy of every true citizen of the U.S. and deserve the same fate as any who threaten the liberty of even one citizen of this nation.

    3. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      How does anyone know what Jesus truly said being as all we have is here-say, written decades after the said event, by someone that we have very little evidence ever existed?

      Might it really have been Brian that said anything? Perhaps Monty Python was right after all.

      Let’s also not follow the mythical Christian god if we are looking for good examples on how not to save babies lives.

      🦁❤️

      1. Chaplain Shawn's Avatar Chaplain Shawn

        Greetings Blessed One Dr. Lionheart, SBS (Supreme Biblical Scholar)

        The reply works for you and Dr. Terikson who also holds a SBS. You both present yourselves as knowledgeable authorities on theism. However, the late Dr. Paul Kurtz wholeheartedly disagrees with you both. What is Secular Humanism? written by Kurtz in 2007 or 2008 states that Secular Humanists do not believe in God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit, angels, the metaphysical, and the paranormal. God is incomprehensible and unintelligible. So why does Lionheart and Terikson mention religion at all? Why does Terikson posit ULC is a secular based ministry when in reality anything secular holds there is no God or gods? I see many contradictions in the worldview of Secular Humanism. Seems you do not want theism as it is, but it is ok to have a secular ministry, hilarious. ULC is secular because they will take $29.95 or whatever price so you can pay for an unqualified ordination with credentials and parking pass discounts, and other VIP benefits. What a joke, and what a sham. The secular keep redefining themselves, contradict the founding SBS Dr. Kurtz, and now want to appear to be a ministry, wow. Your ministry has no biblical basis and would result in many lives lost all over the world when the caliphate is implemented. Consider this, Biden and Pentagon ranking officials have stated they may cooperate with the Taliban in the future. Perhaps, both of your trolling and snarky asides are lacking substance. The secular hold fast to education and science to explain things. Not everyone shares your views. Maybe Atheism, secular humanism, and etc. need to replaced with commonsense.

        Terikson, SBS referring to a fetus as a parasite, really? Your view on human life is reprehensible. As long as young people in their prime exist on the planet, babies will be born. It is a fact of your secular world. I also believe women have the right to do with their body as they please. When you allow that to occur you separate those in the way of Cain, the worldly, from those in the light of the Spirit. Remember if a fetus is a parasite, then all humans, babies on up, started as a parasite including you, Lionheart, and everyone of us. Maybe the human race needs to become extinct for the pests and cockroaches we are. If you can say we are parasites Terikson, SBS; then I can say we are cockroaches. Lol! Have a nice day cockeroaches! Extinction is nigh!

        Not Respectfully,

        Sean the Apologist (Your friendly neighborhood apologist, MA Apologetics)

        1. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

          Oh man it is hilarious you call yourself an apologist. Real followers of the Christ like Ray Comfort or C.S. Lewis both of whom are world renowned for their abilities in the arena of Christian Apologetics. Both have also in their various writings pointed out that you can not argue from an unprovable position, that means even a real apologist does not argue from the position that their beliefs in something intangible may not be used as if they are substantial or have actual validity.

          You also clearly are ignorant of what the word parasite means. A parasite can be anything that drains from another life form and is unwanted. unlike a symbiosis which is what a fetus that wanted becomes. As then the positive emotional experience of impending motherhood is something being given for the price of the resources the fetus takes from the body. It is like you cant understand that something is defined by what it does. A fetus that is unwanted and is causing stress as well taking resources from the body is not the same thing. Just as a human who as you have done self dehumanizes by failing to conduct oneself based on the ancient art of debate by failing to accept that your belief is only important to you, and you try to push what amounts to your beliefs upon other, an act of evil that would warrant your destruction in any sane and civil society.

        2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          Thank you Sean. I don’t see how the late “Dr. Paul Kurtz disagrees with me” if he’s dead, unless of course he is somehow paranormally conferring with you. Please let us know.

          You might be right that secularists don’t believe in any gods, angels, fairies, gnomes, elves, unicorns, tooth fairies, Santa Clause etc., and this is mainly due to the overwhelming lack of any evidence, unless of course you can demonstrably provide any. It would in fact be very nice if you could, especially the god myth. I’m really hoping that a god is real because I seriously want to meet it and poke it in its eye, and stamp on its sandalled feet if I ever see it for its major lack in morals for humanity.

          Thank you for your epistle. I am in fact respectful of everyone, apart from Traitor Joe, leaving people and equipment behind in Afghanistan, and failing to save lives of our Military. Has he checked his watch lately?

          Respectfully 🦁❤️

          Respectfully

    4. Clay Serenbetz's Avatar Clay Serenbetz

      You should know that the Texas law does not have an exception for rape or incest. In quoting Psalms are you arguing that your God condones rape and incest? Texas is notorious for valuing every life, but once born, Gov. Greg Abbott tells us that “no freedom is more precious than life itself.” Under Abbott, Texas has the highest percentage of people with no health insurance and ranks high in the number of teen births. Don’t look for any help from the the Texas government, unless you are a company asking for tax abatements. If Texas cared about human life, then the legislature would have beefed up its social programs concurrent with this law. The failure to do so belies their feigned interest inprotecting life. Texas ranks poorly in the percentage of residents in poverty … If Abbott really cared about every one of us, wouldn’t he do everything possible to improve these numbers?

    5. Douglas Robert Spindler's Avatar Douglas Robert Spindler

      Dr. Bob the Bible also says, "There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.:" Ezekiel 23:20.

      God says women should be allowed to enjoy sex.

      1. flugo's Avatar flugo

        'do spin': Give me the specific Biblical reference that justifies your last paragraph.

        1. Douglas Robert Spindler's Avatar Douglas Robert Spindler

          The husband should fulfill his wife’s sexual needs.

          ~ 1 Corinthians 7:3

          1. flugo's Avatar flugo

            'do spin': Sorry! Not a hint of 'enjoyment' in your reference.

            1. Douglas Robert Spindler's Avatar Douglas Robert Spindler

              Appears you do not know or understand what the sexual needs of a women are. Do you know even know how to pleasure a women? Matthew 5:28 Try taking your head out of your bible and read a book on women's anatomy and sexual desires. Ephesians 4:14–16; Romans 12:1–2 Some of the best sex I have had is with Christian women. This is because Christian men try to control and repress the sexual needs of women. It's a lot of fun to release all of that sexual tension women have, Ezekiel 23:20. Sad you are missing out on it.

              1. flugo's Avatar flugo

                'do spin': Sorry. Again, you fail miserably to reply to my above request. I didn't ask for your experiences, your opinions, your inane blather. I just want the specific Biblical references as requested.

              2. Douglas Robert Spindler's Avatar Douglas Robert Spindler

                flugo Dude I've cited the Bible versus.

      2. Dr. Bob Thomas's Avatar Dr. Bob Thomas

        Ezekiel 20 speaks of two nations as if they were two women. This chapter describes the spiritual infidelity of Israel and Judah, pictured as two sisters, to convey the gravity of sin in Judah. “One mother” refers to the united kingdom, while “two women” refers to the divided kingdom. Oholah, meaning “Her own tabernacle,” as she had her separate dwelling-place apart from the temple, represents Samaria. In the northern kingdom, Jeroboam had set up worship, which God rejected. Oholibah, “My tabernacle is in her,” represents Jerusalem, where God did establish worship. Context is important.

        As to 1 Corinthians 7:3, here again you ignore the context. There is a great danger of sexual sin when single (cf. Mt 19:12). Marriage is God’s only provision for sexual fulfillment. Marriage should not be reduced simply to that, however. Paul has a much higher view and articulates it in Eph 5:22, 23. He is, here, stressing the issue of sexual sin for people who are single.

        1. Douglas Robert Spindler's Avatar Douglas Robert Spindler

          Dr. Bob Thomas, It all depends on how you read and interpret the words of the Bible. How do you know they are two sisters? How do you know they were women? I have yet to find in the Bible or for that matter any pastor who can tell me what the characteristics or a man and a women are. What do you call a person who has developed breasts, overlies and testicles? Is that a man or a women? Young people today realize the Bible is so out of touch with reality they are turning away from religion. With 1 out of every 200 births resulting in a sexual abnormality one would think God and the Bible would talk about gender differences, but it doesn't. In young people's minds this just proves the Bible was written by men which were not inspired by God.

          Dr. Bob what's your definition of a women?

  1. Daniel Gray's Avatar Daniel Gray

    Makes no difference if you like the law or not, the law is the law and has been ruled so by SCOTUS when the five of them said that Planned parenthood could not appeal or sue as they are not able to show they have been "harmed" in any way, and as such under the legal and constitutional decision, they have absolutely NO legal standing, meaning they cant sue no matter what. It would take someone who can PROVE that they have been harmed by this law, and if they could prove that then they already would have had someone front and center.

    Now if this ticks you off, then what are you going to do in the next term of SCOTUS when they rule on the Mississippi law that bans abortions after the 15th week.

    1. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

      Well the Church of Satan is already one step ahead, they have it in their legally protected faith doctrine that the right to abortion is a sacred thing for women, and as such under texas law that protects ones faith based rights above all else, it just means anyone in need has to go to an actual satanic abortion ceremony. Which is so awesome now I wish I was a woman able to get preggers just so I could go attend an actual satanic abortion.

      Hail SATAN! throws the horns

      1. Maximillian Martin's Avatar Maximillian Martin

        You need to learn the difference between the Church Of Satan and The Satanic Temple. The Satanic Temple is the one involved in the legal battle against Texas, not the Church Of Satan.

      2. Daniel Gray's Avatar Daniel Gray

        Sorry Turkey, but NO court in the world is going to allow a religion to claim that abortion is part of their church when they never had or claimed it before. so this is going to be laughed out of court and dismissed with prejudice when a judge with any brains sits down to hear it.

  1. David Arthur Lewis's Avatar David Arthur Lewis

    Have you accepted Donald Trump as your personal Lord and Savior?

    1. Sharon Veronica Meixsell's Avatar Sharon Veronica Meixsell

      If you support Donald Trump..you support racism, narcissim, ignorance, facism...and a person that is less than human..less than an ameoba. Trump is the slime on the bottom of your shoe. He revels in cheating people out of their money, of making the most nastiest petty comments around. He threatens and bullies. He revels in conning his people to do his bidding for him so his tiny hands look "clean". He pushes and tells people to do things and when things come crashing down he is no where to be seen. The man is not compassionate, not remorseful, could never be self aware. He is the most selfish thing around.

      A person who has integrity and lives by good values would never be able to vote for someone like Trump. NEVER!

      1. Takaya Kovani Sweeney's Avatar Takaya Kovani Sweeney

        Well said.

    2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Damn! If it's choice between Donald, or Traitor Joe, I have to go with Donald. 🤷🏻‍♂️

      🦁♥️

      1. David Arthur Lewis's Avatar David Arthur Lewis

        Yeah, I figured you were one of his minions. So how's the weather in Moscow?

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          It’s not too bad. Thanks for asking comrade. I’m glad we are making Joe see sense in insisting for mandates whether the people like it or not. The sooner people start towing the line and doing as they’re told by Joe the better 🤪

          Ready for Donald back yet?

          🦁❤️

          1. David Arthur Lewis's Avatar David Arthur Lewis

            No, sorry. Your Personal Lord and Savior Donald J (for Jesus) Trump, the Father of Lies and Grabber of Genitalia, can go back to his home in Hell. And, by the way, Trumpty Dumpty got his shots.

            1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

              I’d rather have Donald making the nation profitable than your sniffer of young human beings that needs a teleprompter to read his script, prepared by others, taking us into massive debt.

              🦁❤️

              1. Takaya Kovani Sweeney's Avatar Takaya Kovani Sweeney

                I’d rather go into debt to help the working and middle class than to continue transferring our tax dollars into the hands of the pentagon, the greedy rich and corporations.

                I don’t care who’s president.

              2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

                I hear you Takaya. In many ways I feel the same way. We now even have a bar room girl as a representative who couldn't even afford a rusty Yugo car a couple of years ago, now driving a Tesla, and cavorting, like a bar room girl, wearing a white dress with "Tax The Rich" on it. I don't understand how the Hollywood crowd, and politicians, don't realize they are the rich. Perhaps they are now the untouchables.🤷🏻‍♂️

                🦁♥️

      2. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

        Cowardly Lionheart, "Woe unto those that call evil good and good evil, that put darkness for light and light for darkness, that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter" (Isaiah 5:20). It's no wonder that you condemn the Bible, since it exposes and refutes nearly all of your "thinking"!! You never even admitted that Trumpelstiltskin lost the election! That's how Trumpotized and brainwashed you are by that guy!! Nobody who can look at your guy's actions and words in the White House and not see that he was and is a traitor to this country knows the difference between a traitor and a non-traitor or is qualified to call Joe Biden or anyone else a "traitor"!!

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          I don’t vote for the man of a party John, I vote for the policies and how the nation is doing under those policies.

          The way we pulled out if Afghanistan, with the loss of life, leaving citizens behind, and leaving armaments behind, was absolutely appalling. This current administration of dealing with illegal immigration is also in my opinion absolutely appalling. Gasoline prices are now ridiculous. CNN lambasted Trump for the loss of life with Covid. Now we have hit the 700,000 mark, and NO comment whatsoever by CNN, or anyone in current government.

          If anyone was cowardly John, it was Biden running away from the Taliban leaving our folks behind. Presumably you disagree.

          For god so loved the world he drowned everyone, which would have included babies, children, and pregnant women, (well almost everyone, apart from that drunkard and his family). Your god left them to die by drowning John, much like Biden left citizens behind. Your god is a coward and a pathetic misogynistic bully John. I guess you’ll still support him, as well as Biden. Has Biden looked at his watch lately?

          🦁❤️

          1. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

            Since there are still people who idolize Adolf Hitler and believe that he was the greatest leader and statesman in human history, and overlook, excuse or just plain deny that he did anything wrong, and believe that we would all just be much better off if he were able to come back and take over again or another racist dictator just like him took over the country and the world, how much easier is it to say or even self-deludedly believe all of that about the Hitler wannabe Trumpelstiltskin, who isn't even a pimple on Adolf's behind?!! If Hitler can be and is idolized and excused by some people, there isn't anything or anyone that can't be idolized and excused by some people!! You conservatives' position is that your guy or party can do nothing wrong, no matter how much actual wrong they do, and that Joe Biden and Democrats, generally, can do nothing right, no matter what or how many right things that they do!! That is your and Fox "News" version of "Fair and Balanced"! You single out and immediately pounce on Biden's not doing everything perfectly and any mistakes of his whatsoever, while giving Trumpelstiltskin a pass on everything!!! Did your guy even try to pull us out of Afghanistan? No, because he would have screwed it up far worse than what you are saying that Biden did, except according to you and all other hypnotized and brainwashed Trumpophiles, who never see or admit that the Donald ever does anything wrong!! Everyone except you hypnotized and brainwashed drones of Trumpelstiltskin know that he is the worst "President" in U.S. history, which you would also know, if you could ever awaken from his mind control over you!! As for God's "drowning babies, children, and pregnant women" or "being a misogynistic, pathetic, and cowardly bully", just because some Bible writers wrote him that way, do you believe everything that you read in the National Enquirer or other tabloids or even hear on Fox "News" or other conservative "news" outlets about movie stars or other celebrities?!! If you do, I have a bridge and some prime Florida real estate that I would like very much to interest you in, since anybody who would buy all that would buy anything!! What if some lies were written about you in the tabloids or said on "news" programs? Should we believe all of those things about you, too, following your own standard of believing lies written in the Bible about God because you want to believe them? That isn't doing into others as you would have others do unto you. A lot of the Bible is written as though it were the National Enquirer and Bible writers felt free to say anything that they wanted about God and make him the mouthpiece for their own hatred, misogyny, racism, etc. God isn't going to stop people from doing that, anymore than He stops people from committing any other sins, since that would be His deciding for them not to do that, instead of their deciding that for themselves. But people don't define God or say what He does or doesn't do, in the Bible or outside of it!! Biden doesn't need to look at his watch. Trumpelstiltskin needs to look at his watch and to his lawyers, to see how much time he has left before he goes to prison for his crimes!!! I'll leave you and Dorothy and the Scarecrow and the Tin Man and Toto, too, to continue going down the Yellow Brick Road toward Oz, Cowardly Lion, without a heart for immigrants, gay people, protestors, black people, Biden, Democrats, and many other people!!

            1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

              Thank you John for your myopic perspective, and that’s okay, we have got used to it with Biden these last 9 months. It was Trump that set the guidelines to pulling out of Afghanistan by May, but no one in their right mind expected Biden to approve retreating leaving everyone behind to fend for themselves, and also leaving prized military equipment behind.

              Biden’s popularity on his business decisions for this beautiful country of ours, or what was a beautiful country, is now down at 38%, what does that tell you John, or are you still wearing rose colored glasses with the name of Biden engraved on them?

              Yes I agree the Bible is greatly flawed…..throughout, but as far as I’m aware the page numbers seem to be correct.

              Trump won’t go to jail any more than Hunter Biden will. It’s the way it is for those where the law is different for those with money and in government. Look at Hillary and her lost emails, and Obama who very possibly wasn’t an American citizen by birthright. You and I would be in jail for such crimes.

              Yes I have a heart for immigrants being as I am one. I followed the law and applied for immigrant status, along with my family. It took a few years involving going to the American embassy in London a few times to show I had a healthy bank account, so that I wouldn’t be a drain on US economy. My academic qualifications were verified to show I could help improve US science if accepted, which I did by accepting a science position to help with the redesign of the Solid Rocket booster for the Space Shuttle program to get the Space program back in flight after the Challenger disaster in 1986. My health was verified for my whole family to show that I wouldn’t be bringing any diseases into the country. My criminal background for my whole family was checked and verified. This is how it should be done John, if not, we are headed for a whole load of trouble……as obviously we are, judging by criminal activity of rape, and even murder, by some unverified illegal immigrants. Is this what you really want John for this once beautiful country?

              🦁❤️

              1. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Cowardly Lion without a Heart, as usual with you conservatives, you define "myopia", as you do every other word, to suit yourselves and always only wrongly apply it to other people, instead of rightly to yourselves where it actually fits!! We have really gotten used to that during the 4 years of your guy's unrightful occupancy of the White House! The proof, if any more proof were needed, that you don't really know the difference between myopia and clearsightedness is that you were able to support that corrupt and self-centered fraud Trumpelstiltskin for 4 years and never wake up to the truth about him, despite his telling you right to your faces that he could kill somebody right out on the street and you idiots would still support him, showing all reasonable people (which leaves you out!!) how deservedly low an opinion he has about all of you, not to mention all of his other admissions about himself and actions that he committed right in front of you!! When people look in an encyclopedia under "myopia", they see a picture of Trumpophiles gathered together or, at least, would in any actually up-to-date, realistic, and honest encyclopedia!! For you or any other conservatives to call anyone else "myopic" is a case of the whole pot factory's calling a single kettle "black" and is further proof that you don't know what in the Hell you are talking about or your behinds from holes in the ground!! People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!! "First remove the beam from your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye". You aren't able to rightfully judge Biden as "myopic" over the last 9 months, considering your own actual myopia and wearing rose colored hallucinatory glasses for 4 years while looking at your guy!! If your guy set the guidelines for pulling out of Afghanistan by May, why did he wait until then and not implement them himself and get us out of Afghanistan sooner? It's because even he knew that he would have screwed it up even worse than what you are saying that Biden did and have left even more military hardware and weapons over there and have people saying even worse things about him!! So, he just shirked off his responsibility and left it to his successor, so that he would take the blame for any problems or mistakes. Nobody could have pulled us out of Afghanistan as quickly as we pulled out and needed to pull out after all these years, instead of continuing to put it off, without leaving large amounts of hardware and weapons behind. Certainly, not Trumpelstiltskin, as he knew very well!! He wasn't even a successful businessman and failed at everything and was left his money by his father, and screwed that up, too!! If he couldn't handle business, why would anyone (other than you, his hypnotized and brainwashed drones!!) think that he could run the country? Nobody did! His own staff and cabinet considered him an idiot, and they certainly were closer to him than you are and knew him much better than you do. His own niece Mary Trump and sister call him unfit to have held office, and they also know him much better than you do. What does your guy's unpopularity with everyone other than brainwashed Trumpophiles tell you about him or would tell you, except for your rose-colored hallucinatory glasses? The reality is that he wanted desperately to stay in the White House because, as President, he couldn't be prosecuted for his crimes, which is what he is facing now outside of the presidency, and will be sentenced for, if New York State has their way with him and anything to say about it! More proof of your blinders and myopia is that Obama produced his birth certificate many times and you, along with all other brainwashed people, still keep harping on that birther nonsense and delusion! You don't have a heart for immigrants, unless they are exactly the same as you and in your same economic and social condition, and not for people who are fleeing from gangs and terrorism and need help and asylum immediately, without going through the usual immigration process. That's like saying that there shouldn't be emergency rooms in hospitals, where people need immediate medical care, but, instead, gunshot victims or heart attack victims should just wait in the waiting room with everyone else and go through the usual admission procedure---and die while waiting!! These people at the border also needed immediate help and couldn't go through the normal admission process. So, special consideration has to be given to them, more than for you and other usual immigrants. That is how our country is supposed to work, as the sign on the Statue of Liberty says: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free"! Or else tear down the Statue of Liberty and toss it into New York harbor, since it is a lie, if not actually put into practice!! This is all for you right now!!

              2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

                I’m curious as to what else you are deluded about John. Do you also believe in a god?

                🦁❤️

              3. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Cowardly Heartless Lion, I just mentioned all the things that you and all other conservatives are deluded about and, as usual, you take the focus off yourself and answering those indictments against you by trying to switch the attention to someone else! More proof of your cowardice!! Some things attributed to God might be (and probably are!) delusions on religious people's parts, but the existence of the Universe isn't a delusion! Nor is the fact that unintelligent matter and nature can't synchronize, coordinate, calibrate, and maintain it in functioning. That requires intelligence, and of a higher level than any human being has! The evidence for this "imaginary God" is all around you all the time and isn't responsible for your choosing to ignore it or "explain it all away" in your feeble and unsatisfactory manner! You do so because admitting that there is a God would put moral obligations and restrictions on you and you don't want any of that restriction of your "freedom" and "self-determination" and "sovereignty over the world"! Why are you so quick to see through some religious delusions, but so slow to (or just never do at all!) see through your guy's or conservatives' delusions or brainwashing of you and your ilk? You are as bad about all that as you claim that religious people are about their delusions and brainwashing because you are personally invested in your delusions and brainwashing, just as they are in theirs, and can't free yourself or be freed from any of that without denying your own sense of identity, the same as they can't.

              4. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

                I guess you are one of the 38% John that is happy with Biden’s performance so far, and that’s ok, it actually says a lot about you that I’ve suspected all along. One day he might take questions from the press, that’s if he’s allowed to by whoever is pulling the strings backstage. To be honest I’ll be glad to see the back of him…..oh but wait, we do……at all of his press briefings as he quickly scurries away. Is he capable of speaking to the press without a teleprompter? Do you think he’ll see out his full presidency?

                Do you think the 38% rating will get any lower? There’s still over 3 years left. How’s your gas prices doing where you are? Any empty shelves in stores in your area yet? How’s the looting doing that’s closing down stores like Walgreens, and others in some areas? Let’s not talk about the cargo ships that need to be off-loaded, troop deaths in Afghanistan . Wow….are we really only 8 months into his presidency? You really did vote for him…..right? I’m sure you gave it lots of thought before you did.

                When I read your replies back to me, it’s ok, because I realize you voted for Joe, and I know you meant well. It’s possibly a struggle for you right now, but please know we’re here for you. If it helps you to reply back to me, please do so. Writing down your thoughts can really help. Get it out!

                Anyway, for the time being, this might also just help you, all together now “Let’s go Brandon”

                🦁❤️

              5. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Cowardly Heartless Lyin'!! I have tried twice to get my posts published here by ULC, but they must have felt that I was being too condescending and patronizing toward you, in response to your condescension and patronizing attitude toward me at the end of your post here and really throughout it (evidently, alright for you to do toward me, but not alright to do to you in return). But I really don't want or need to stoop to your level of condescension and patronizing as a means of evading answering questions and points in a post. Go ahead and get that out, if it helps you, and you reply back to me. I understand that you can't help being as you are. Have you considered your guy's very low approval ratings during his "presidency", as stated online by USA Today, Gallup News, and NBC News? The only people who were satisfied by Trumpelstiltskin's performance in office were all of his hypnotized and brainwashed drones, such as yourself, who never thought and still don't think (and I could actually leave it at that!!) that he ever did or does anything wrong. Think about that, as far as you are able to do so, before you start talking about anything that you "think" that Joe Biden has done wrong. Your guy never actually answered any questions at all and was too busy arguing with and insulting reporters to have time to do that, and left press conferences early in order to avoid answering reporters' questions, because why would he have to be responsive or responsible to the American people, right? He spent his time watching TV and tweeting in the Executive mansion and playing golf and vacationing at Mar a Lago because that is what he was "elected" to do, right? Again, think as hard as you are able to about all of that before you make any comments about Joe Biden's performance at press conferences, since he, at least, stays to the end for them and is never going to satisfy you conservatives, anyway, no matter how well he did, because you will always find something to complain about, in order to get Trumpelstiltskin or another Republican back in the White House in 2024. You couldn't even seriously try to do that, if you gave Joe Biden a fair chance and didn't pounce on him over everything!! I understand all of that when I read your posts to me and know that you can't help being as you are, and "thought" that you were doing the right thing by voting for your guy, and that you meant well, anyway. You "thought" that you "gave it a lot of thought" when you voted for him. We understand. You are probably having a lot of struggle with and doubts over your choice of him now after his being impeached twice and all of his other admissions about himself, and clearing protesters out of a park just so that he could have a photo op in front of a church whose pastor didn't want him there, and other actions that he committed while in office. This might possibly help you with your dilemma, if you say "Right on, Mary Trump!! You go, girl!!!".

              6. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

                I’m glad you got that out of your system John, it’s so important to be able to do that to move forward, otherwise negative thoughts can take a person over and cause animosity.

                I’m sure Biden is attempting to do the best he can, bless him. Let’s hope he manages to survive his tenure in good mental health. I know it’s not looking very likely right now, but we can but hope. I realize his Build Back Better slogan is not looking very good right now, but he has 3 years, hopefully, to try and get everything back on track. Let’s hope he can get it all sorted out eventually before we go into a depression, that’s the last thing we all need…right? On the bright side, there’s a rumor here in California that gas prices won’t reach $6 a gallon. I realize it’s close, but we’re all hoping for the best and trying to think positively.

                🦁❤️

  1. Ingrid Magnusson's Avatar Ingrid Magnusson

    Women still have six weeks to abort. The abortion pill is available. It’s not rocket science. Any woman who has had sex and doesn’t want the responsibility has a month and a half to deal with it. So why would they want to wait until the baby is formed to kill it? That’s what annoys me. Why wait until it’s a formed human being to kill it when they have six whole weeks to fix their ‘problem’. It’s just laziness.

    1. Sharon Veronica Meixsell's Avatar Sharon Veronica Meixsell

      Apparently, since the Texas law passed the Republicans are looking at making the morning after pill illegal. Just imagine that ...back to coat hangers or finding the money to go to a different state.... It is not laziness. I didn't know I was pregnant til after 6 weeks. However, I have a medical condition. I have epilepsy. I have 1 child already...he is on the Autism Spectrum. Apparently my medications are extremely harmful to the development of a child. The doctor said if you get pregnant again...your child could be born without all his/her limbs and possibly have other significant health issues. And so when I realized I was pregnant after 6 weeks I got an abortion. Because I didn't have the money or the energy to take care of another special needs child. And before you go off thinking I wasn't using protection...I was. Except that I can't take the pill and condoms are not 100% effective.

    2. Nicole Carroll's Avatar Nicole Carroll

      You are a woman? Do you get your period? If the answer is yes to both questions, please re-educate yourself on the cylcle of a woman. If you get your period every 4- 5 weeks, and you are late, BAM, your 6 week window has passed. In addition, why do people always assume women are just having sex left and right, getting pregnant and aborting. There are soooo many medical reasons why.

    3. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

      The fact you refer to it as killing a baby invalidates you entirely. Until you alt reich zealots can argue from the position of reality, and not you emotional based authoritarian mythology you do not have a valid position and have in fact self dehumanized by the traditions of human debate going back before the time of your false god.

      The fact you you show such ignorance about a womans body and biology, and ignore the entire issue of personal autonomy further outs you as someone who has no place among civil society.

  1. Ronaldo's Avatar Ronaldo

    The matter of abortion, and when the fetus becomes a separate life, should not be a political or a religious matter. This is a medical issue, and we should be demanding that our medical community, using all the resources at their disposal, actually make that determination. While God told Jeremiah that He knew him before he was formed in the womb, God was talking to a prophet, and we have no indication in Scripture that the same rule applies to those who were not chosen as prophets. Some say it's a woman's body, and she has every right to do whatever she wants to with it, but that should not apply if the fetus is a separate life, as it is not the woman's body any longer. Some state supreme courts have ruled that a woman can, and has been, convicted of child abuse because she did drugs while pregnant. If she can be convicted of child abuse, then the court is tacitly recognizing the fetus as a child.

  1. James Thomas Mackay's Avatar James Thomas Mackay

    I'm overjoyed that Gov. Abbott and the legislators in TX had the "guts" to pass this law. It's been long overdue. Roe v. Wade was erroneously passed in the first place. How can a law "permit" human destruction? No one in their right mind can deny that their so-called fetus is actually a human embryo? Over 63 million children have been murdered since 1973. It's time to accept the fact that only God has the right to take a life (except in warfare). Thank you Lord and I look forward to other States exploring a similar law. Jim in Silver Spring, MD.

    1. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

      To even suggest your god is real is an act that would allow another of a differing faith in the U.S. to invoke stand their ground against you as anyone espousing insular rhetoric is expressing an attitude a sane and civil minded citizen in the U.S. may take your life for as you are clearly a threat to the life and liberty of actual humans.

      Never forget if you can not accept your idea of god is personal and has no authority over any but yourself, you have no standing in these forums. Only secular ministers of the ULC in good standing have any validity here.

  1. arawngraalrd's Avatar arawngraalrd

    Abortion Law, pro and con, has always been about protecting the Medical Monopoly. Texas now has a state law, where states have a duty to legislate, and those who don't like it can go back to California.

  1. Cindy L Edgar's Avatar Cindy L Edgar

    I think it's about time they banned abortions the only one that should have abortions are the women who have been raped or it's a life-and-death situation besides. No nobody should have been allowed to oops I got pregnant and I'm going to go have an abortion no those aren't right if you lay down and have sex with somebody and you got pregnant well that's your fault and the other person's fault nobody else's and that little life should not have to suffer because you made a mistake

    1. Joy 's Avatar Joy

      So how about educating young boys to be gentlemen, showing them women are not property? How about educating young men about birth control? How about teaching men and boys that it is not OK to hit a woman, or force them into sex? How about teaching real sex ed in schools for both boys and girls, instead of teaching this puritanical purity virgin sex stuff? How about we stop shaming women for enjoying sex?

      Why does everything single thing get put on the shoulders of the woman? Your are not looking at the big picture.

      "If you lay down and have sex with somebody and you got pregnant...." what about the man in the situation? I don't know if you realize this but it takes two to make a baby. And we continue to shame and blame the woman if she gets pregnant? When do the men get held accountable?

      Oh, that's right. They can't in an Abbot State because they want the "Handmaid's Tale". They want control plain and simple. That is the real heart of the issue. Not abortion. It's about control. And you are playing right into the scenario. It's not going to stop at abortion. It never does.

    2. Clay Serenbetz's Avatar Clay Serenbetz

      You forgot that the Texas law has no exceptions for rape and limits medically necessary Abortions.

  1. Sergiy Kozulya's Avatar Sergiy Kozulya

    A good law. 6 weeks is enough time to make a decision. A normal woman will worry a week after a delay in menstruation. The tests allow her to determine pregnancy at a period of about 2 weeks.

    1. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

      You are insane and frankly obvious ignorant of how the body of a woman works. Periods are far from clockwork especially in women going through puberty( which fyi actually goes on in humans until we are in are mid 20s) It is well known among the medical community that 6 weeks is entirely too little a time by any reasonable standard. And again any law against abortion is inherently evil. Wanting to push your moral ideal based on a faith tradition begun by incestuous child raping goat herders thousands of years ago who literally made it up stealing the names of 2 gods from the major civilizations of the area and smashing them together and saying they are the true chosen people of this true god makes you beyond evil. Like Hitler and Stalin are genuine humanitarians compared to people like you.

      1. Sergiy Kozulya's Avatar Sergiy Kozulya

        Before accusing someone of insanity, check yourself with a psychiatrist.

        1. Ilmenheru Terikson's Avatar Ilmenheru Terikson

          Thank you for further self dehumanizing. Until you learn how to write a coherent statement and construct an actual argument you do not have any substance and are just another invalid non human.

    2. Beth's Avatar Beth

      The 6 weeks is counted from the first day of the woman's last monthly period. Since average is around 28 days, she's already 4 weeks pregnant by the time she's even an hour late. Periods being late by a day or two - or even a week or more is common. Then she has to call for an appointment, arrange for time off work, around school work, or other things in her life. By the time she gets the appointment, it's too late.

      IOW, she's counted as pregnant even before she had sex!

    3. arawngraalrd's Avatar arawngraalrd

      Quickening begins about six weeks after Conception, and a woman will have missed two periods. It would help if Panned Parenthood would stop telling Children that Condoms and Oral Contraceptives are 100% effective.

      1. Sergiy Kozulya's Avatar Sergiy Kozulya

        100% efficiency is provided only by irreversible operations. Therefore, we have to live with what we have. And buy test systems if the cycle is broken....

  1. Lord Morgan's Avatar Lord Morgan

    The enemy of my enemy is my enemy, The friend of my friends of my friend and Lord, are my friends.

    I am Valyrian/Valhalla, I am in this War, with Lore and Gore. Its an Evolutionary Tale of Lore.

    1. David Arthur Lewis's Avatar David Arthur Lewis

      Off your meds again, Morgan?

    2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Your post is one of the weirdest things I have ever read here. Whatever it means, thank you for making me smile.

      Be well

      🦁❤️

    3. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

      Please tell us Morgan, in your current delusion, do you think you're a member of the British House Of Lords? Tally ho, and away we go!

  1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

    Why do women who want abortions have to tell anyone about it? Why can't they do it in private? I've heard all it takes is a wire clothes hanger, an assistant, and a working toilet. Legal or not, nobody else has to know about it, unless they're co-dependant self-defeatists.

    1. Sharon Veronica Meixsell's Avatar Sharon Veronica Meixsell

      I hope this comment was sarcastic and not a real serious comment. Because if it is WTF?? You are a cruel person...not even a person. You would want your wife, daughter, sister, or aunt have to do this??? You would tell them to shut up and get a coat hanger and shove it in her to do the abortion??? Would you tell them carry the baby that is the end result of a rapist who raped any of them at knife or gunpoint?? Wouldn't you want them to get the best possible care. You views are disgusting and I am offended and I am sure others here are. I do not believe you are fit to be a minister. Someone like you advising women during an emotional time in their lives...

    2. Sharon Veronica Meixsell's Avatar Sharon Veronica Meixsell

      WTF??? Are you being sarcastic? Because if this is a serious comment I am extremely offended and so would many people even men. So, I am just supposed to be treated like an animal. Grab a clothes and dig that thing up my vagina to my womb??? Yes, I agree with you don't need to tell everyone about it, however, sometimes people need support and need to talk with someone. So, do you have a wife, sister, daughter, aunt, grandmother etc? Would you like to see them raped and then tell them just shut up and get a coat hanger and take care of it??? If this is a real true comment then you are not a true minister. No one who is a minister should ever take this approach. In fact, I would go so far as to say you are not a human being. This is beyond cruel. You need help.

  1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

    Morgan, I see uggest you contact your psychiatrist. You sound like it might be a good time for a medication change.

    1. Robert A Stiff's Avatar Robert A Stiff

      Carl Bernard Elfstrom: anyone ever tell you that your like the classic school yard bully...calling names, mocking and disparaging any and everyone who might offer an opinion that doesn't match your self-entitled rants? You're such a cliché.

  1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

    Ehrman, everywhere you go life is also full of foolishness. You better try reading between the lines, and quit being so damn gullible!

  1. William Dusenberry's Avatar William Dusenberry

    Every ULC’er, should try using the word “nature” in place of “God” any time they even consider using the word “God.”

    Thomas Jefferson (a Pantheist, as was Albert Einstein) used “Nature’s God” In his Declaration of Independence, and saying “Nature’s taking care of you” — anytime someone sneezes, is a great conversation starter.

    I used to say “thanks for not sneezing on me” but my wife says that doing so is impolite.

    “In Nature we Trust” — what other choice do we have?” Should be our national motto.

  1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

    William, this isn't a goddam A.A. meeting! You're completely off the subject. We're not going to talk about money! This article is about abortions. Did you forget? Snap back to reality, man!

    1. Sharon Veronica Meixsell's Avatar Sharon Veronica Meixsell

      Money is about abortion. Because making a woman have to have a child means she needs to have the money to raise it. And if she was pregnant because of rape or incest and is extremely young she will not have the means. Also, some health insurers will cover a percentage of an abortion. The rest is paid for by the patient having the abortion. So yes, money does come into the discussion.

  1. Carl Bernard Elfstrom's Avatar Carl Bernard Elfstrom

    So, if you didn't compare yourself with others Ehrman, what did you compare yourself with, a toad perhaps. Considering some of your redundant babblings in the Desiderata, that you've convinced the ULC holds the answers to all my perceived problems, I wouldn't be surprised.

  1. Cathi Fleet Robinson's Avatar Cathi Fleet Robinson

    Many of these pro birth comments are outrageous and misinformed. Pro life is definitely not pro life. Religious interpretations are varied. Science teaches us factually. To be pro life is really to be pro choice- no wiggle room to think otherwise. Abortion is much needed healthcare and our personal agreement or disagreement is meaningless in a decision that each person makes in their healthcare. We must advocate against this restrictive Texas law as well as any other state that follows. Research extensively the facts prior to legalized and safe abortion procedures were available. It’s ludicrous to speak in favor of this Texas law without understanding the very real consequences- pro life is not the same as pro birth and it is dangerously and irresponsibly to think otherwise.

  1. George Oliver Hutson's Avatar George Oliver Hutson

    I wonder what is the opinion of Universal "Life" church. Do the people who run the ministry believe that abortion is the woman's right? I know far too many women who have chosen abortion because a baby would inconvenience them. Abortion was just another form of birth control. The problem is they should have thought about the repercussions of their actions before giving in to lust. I believe life begins at conception...what say you Universal Life Church?

    1. Joy 's Avatar Joy

      Oh so it's the woman's fault for getting pregnant? What about the man? When will we hold these "lustful and sinful" men accountable?

    2. Jean Bakula's Avatar Jean Bakula

      The men rarely spend a whole day with their children in all the kid's lives in families that conservative. It's "Women's Work." She never has time to go to school, get a career, have a life. And why aren't there more kinds of birth control for men? Why don't you take responsibility for a change? There's little research on it because men don't want to be bothered.

  1. James Philip Reader's Avatar James Philip Reader

    So, not going to enter the fray over abortion - I'm pro-choice and the issue is unresolvable since neither side is going to change their opinions. I will however take issue with sentiments paraphrased as "maybe it's time for Texas to secede" and "please secede". Those expressing such sentiments underwhelm me with their sympathy and amuse me with their apparent privilege. I was born into a yeller-dawg-Democrat family in Texas over 61 years ago. I and my circle have been progressive Texas Dems since long before it was fashionable. As with many states, Texas cities are blue islands in a sea of rural red counties. While my wife and I might have the resources to up and move out of Texas, this state is full of people trapped here by circumstance. Such 'secession' sentiments write those people off. They are, apparently, unimportant to those believing it would make everyone else more comfortable if Texas went its own way.

    1. Katelynne Shouse's Avatar Katelynne Shouse

      Perhaps the US government could assist those without the means to relocate to do so.....and in their place an equal amount of jackass's could take their spots in Texas. Not an ideal solution I grant you but something is going to have to be tried before the next Civil War starts. And honestly it's merely a match tip strike away from exploding in every single person's face!

  1. Richard Lee Cornell's Avatar Richard Lee Cornell

    As I heard from a friend who sells all sorts of street drugs, that this anti-abortion law in Texas is a windfall for those who take drugs. The Mexican Drug Cartel used to put a bounty on the heads of the Republican lawmakers in Texas for putting up a wall on the border between Mexico and the US. What was a $1,000 a head have jump to 10 grand a head. Matching the States, 10 grand, put on doctors heads. Texas with its lax gun laws might find that drug users are willing to kill a few lawmakers for that kind of money. Planned Parenthood has call the bluff of the Texas lawmakers by telling their clients about the welfare programs that are in Texas. That the State will give her vast sums of wealth for having a unwanted child. A welfare mom can easily pull in $30,000/year for having a unwanted child.

  1. Reverend Gary's Avatar Reverend Gary

    All is well we each will realize the truth as we remember who we really are, what we really are. There is no judgement, ever for anything. Search within yourself to remember.

  1. Norma Battes's Avatar Norma Battes

    Give it back to the ones it was stole from. Pronto!

  1. Kenneth John Bickley's Avatar Kenneth John Bickley

    Come on folks, use your ingenuity. Texas was creative in creating a law which appears to successfully eliminate abortions by creating legislation which does not use State action to ban it so there is no State action infringing the Constitution. Therefore the Supreme Court could not deal with it. So, 1) hop onto your hosses and skedaddle to Texas and find a woman who is going to get an abortion. Report her Uber driver, doctor or whatever using the legislative procedure, collect you $10,000 or whatever the bounty is, and use the $ to assist other women to leave Texas for their abortion or for whatever you wish to use the $ for. Then, secondly, urge your own State to use the same legislative trick/tool to ban guns, or whatever you wish to ban and your State too would avoid Supreme Court intervention.

    Not sure what the vaccine has to do with the abortion debate, but look at it this way. If the non/anti-vaxers are Republicans, just think of how few Republican/Trumpites will still be around in 2024!

  1. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

    "Minister" Wilson. As usual with your ilk, you claim that anything is a "straw man" or "ad hominem attack" as a cover for your not wanting to or being able to respond to it and answer it sufficiently and reasonably, which, again, isn't determined solely by what you consider "sufficient" or "reasonable" to suit and "justify" yourself, but has to have some large degree of correlation with other people's definition of and view of it, and not just be in accord with your view and definition. Putting your title of "Minister" in quotation marks isn't an ad hominem attack, but is merely questioning your title's legitimacy, which isn't the same as attacking you personally, the same as I put our former "president's" title in quotation marks, since he didn't live up to his responsibilities as "president", and the same as I put any other title of someone in quotation marks who doesn't fulfill their responsibilities in their office. You can't just say and think whatever you want and still qualify as a minister or be any different than non-ministers who do that!! Do you accept absolutely everyone at face value in what they claim about themselves or claim as their title or do you demand that there be a very large correlation between what they claim and their actual performance in the position? If you make that same demand that I do, do you think that you are making ad hominem attacks on someone or merely pointing out obvious discrepancies? Any so-called "minister" who doesn't care about the rights of the unborn, but only about women's rights, at the cost of unborn children's lives, disqualifies himself or herself from being an actual minister, since it is our job (I'm a minister, too) to defend the defenseless and speak up for those who can't speak up for themselves! "Whatsoever you have done to the least of these, my brethren (and who could be the least of our brethren more than defenseless children, who are counting on their mothers to nurture and care for and love them, and not tear them apart in the womb and kill them!!), you have done unto me". "If any man hurt one of these little ones who have put their trust in me, it were better that a millstone should be tied around his neck and he should be drowned in the depths of the sea". You said that you didn't want Scripture in my reply to you, but I can't exclude it when it helps me to answer you. Why, again, as a supposed "minister", would you have a problem with reading Scripture? A minister can't think the same way as people who care nothing about God or Scripture or even believe that there is a God and still honestly and reasonably qualify as a minister, but only be making it up and defining the term to suit himself. Abortion is different than miscarriage because miscarriages are just the acts of blind unthinking women's bodies, the same as all the rest of nature, which is corrupted, and so God isn't a murderer, since He doesn't allow them; it is corrupted nature that allows them. But abortion is a woman's conscious choice and so there is no honest or reasonable comparison between that and miscarriage. "I want you (John Partin) to put yourself in a woman's shoes...not others just you...And I would like you to explain how you as a woman (john) would feel about your place in such a society. Do you have rights over your bodily autonomy? What class of citizens are you? Are you being punished for being a woman and having sex? (try to be honest)" is just a long drawn out and indirect way of saying "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". You try to be honest about that, for a change! That isn't punishing women for having sex, but only demanding that they have it responsibly and not kill children in the womb because they weren't responsible. God isn't going to force people to do right or keep them from doing wrong, since that would be His making that decision for them and violating their free will, and would prove nothing about the people themselves, whom he wants to make that decision for themselves and not be robots. So, we can only, as God's hands and mouths and legs here on Earth enact these "menial, puny human laws" to try, to the best of our ability, to defend these unborn children.That isn't about making women "second class citizens", as though they could only be "first class citizens" by being able to do whatever in the Hell that they want to themselves or any bodies inside them, but is only about defending the defenseless, who can't defend themselves, and their right to be born! Women's rights over their bodies aren't absolute or unconditional, even when they actually only involve the women themselves and not any other bodies inside, as I mentioned in my post below in the cases of suicide, drug abuse and addiction, cult membership, and treason against their country, to name a few.

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      I’ve read your posts to Minister Wilson and I can see that you do in fact seem to revel in your ad hominem attacks on others that don’t share your views. You might want to try thinking deeply about your belief structure and how it’s affecting how you interact with others. Try thinking positively about what others are saying to you to get a better perspective. The choice is of course yours, but it’s definitely worth considering, if only for peace of mind.

      🦁❤️

      1. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

        If all that it ever took, Cowardly Heartless Lyin', was for you or Mr. Wilson (if "Wilson" isn't his pseudonym and handle in here, too!) to call anything an "ad hominem attack" for it to actually be such, there wouldn't be anything that wasn't an ad hominem attack, but, fortunately, it takes a great deal more than just your and his words and hurt feelings and outrage at being told the truth about yourselves to actually make that an ad hominem attack!! Other people are telling people the truth about themselves all the time and aren't ad hominem attacking them! Jesus called the scribes and Pharisees "vipers and hypocrites" and "whited sepulchres" and was just calling a spade a spade and telling them the truth about themselves, not ad hominem attacking them!! You, of all people, telling me or anyone else, to examine our belief structures, which you never do at all unhypnotizedly and un-brainwashedly with yours!!!, Is just so hypocritical and self-centered and the whole pot factory's calling a single kettle "black"!!! Examine your belief structure, honestly and fairly, for a change, before telling me or anyone else to do it, and get a better perspective and peace of mind for yourself!!!

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          I’m so sorry you are having difficulty letting things go John. Try thinking positively about things, I’m sure you’ll find life gets much easier. I’m sure we’re all here hoping for the best for you. Hang in there! 🤗

          🦁❤️

          1. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

            I'm still so very sorry that you, Cowardly Heartless Lyin', are having so much difficulty letting go of your animosity and cynicism toward President Joe Biden and coming out from under your hypnotism and enslavement to Trumpelstiltskin and that you are incapable of seeing that both of those conditions are the truth about you, which is the first step toward your recovery and you will never have any chance of recovering without taking that first step!! Your blindness about these and many other matters also keep you from seeing the hypocrisy, pretentiousness, and foolishness of your telling me or anyone else to "let go of things" when you aren't even doing that yourself!!! I would tell to try to "think positively", but you really aren't capable of doing that or anything even close to that, and so it would be pointless and wasted advice!! Life would get much easier for you if you could do all that, but there is really not much chance or hope of your ever doing so!! You are far too entrenched in your "thinking" and habits for that to ever happen!! We have pretty much given up on you and your ever coming out of any of that and consider you a lost cause and hopeless case!! Hang on by a thread or by your fingertips or by the skin of your teeth or by something over there, but just do that!!!!

            1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

              Thank you John, I’m glad you have taken my suggestion of getting it all out there, I’m confident it’s really helping you, I’ve heard it’s very good therapy so please keep on doing it. Try writing longer posts if you can. Don’t worry about Biden so much, hopefully his disability can be taken care of, just concentrate on yourself. Warmest wishes 🤗

              🦁❤️

              1. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                I'm glad that you (whoever you might actually be, Cowardly Heartless Lyin'!) have finally decided to take your own advice about getting your own true feelings out there and know that that would be excellent therapy for you, too, and not just for other people, and not keep being evasive about answering my and other people's points and questions to you in our posts to you through phony "superiority" and condescension, patronizing, and talking down to people, and can't wait to see you start doing that in your posts here. You aren't there, yet, as your post here shows, but I'm confident that it will do you a lot of good, if you can ever manage to actually do it. You should try writing longer posts, if they can actually be filled with genuine responses to people, and not just more of your usual non-responsiveness, such as in your post here. You can write as short of your usual posts as you like, since they do neither you nor anyone else any good! It would certainly help you in writing actual responses to people's posts to start worrying about your choice for "President" far more and far less about our beloved and wonderful actual President Joe Biden, who has no problems at all, compared to your guy. Such obsession as you and your ilk have about and against President Biden and for your guy are, quite clearly, not conducive to all of your mental health! So, do try to see a therapist about all of that as soon as you can and stick with it, until you have overcome that difficulty, which will probably take the rest of your life! We all know that it won't be easy, if even possible, for you to break your lifelong habits of evasiveness, considering your conservative indoctrination and upbringing before that, but we are all pulling for you here and wishing you the best with being able to overcome all of that! Very warmest wishes, which we are all certain will be assured and take care of themselves on your present course, and might even have a chance in a different way, if you, by some miracle, are able to overcome all of that difficulty of yours. Good luck with all that!

              2. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Hello Mr. Partin,

                I read what you wrote to Lionheart. If you do not understand the meaning of an ad hominem attack, please allow me to enlighten you. An ad hominem attack is usually directed at the person rather than their position regarding a particular topic.

                Moreover, it expresses a fundamental weakness of the attacker’s argument since the discussion usually becomes sidelined or misdirected by principles associated with a negative type of counter-transference.

                Ask yourself, what relevance does comments like; “your ilk”, questioning a person’s last name “Wilson,” or a “cowardly lying (pun intended)” have in the furtherance of your discussion.

                It seems then that you turn this counter-transference sentiment around and argue that we have somehow breached social protocol through some sort of snobby conservative attitude. I do not think that Lionheart or I are supporters of the former president, but what difference would it make regarding abortion rights and the new Texas law?

                President Biden might personally object to abortion but still seems to acknowledge that reproductive rights remain a women’s choice ultimately. Therefore, I do not think a trip through Nazi Germany or Slavery and Jim Crow strengthens your argument opposing those rights. Especially when you will not even acknowledge God’s role and where its responsibility would truly rest from an all-powerful and all-knowing entity since the expulsion of a fetus or embryo happens without intervention as well. So, should we also hold women legally responsible for miscarriages, and how could anyone differentiate that absent an investigation.

                This is a slippery slope because abortions happen whether they are legal are not. Realistically, the planet only has a certain amount of resources, and without infinite resources, these types of decisions are better left to the person responsible for the care of the human child, in my humble opinion.

                I realize that this might not make sense to you; however, I will repeat it: John women are not flower pots for men to go around and plant seeds into. Any semblance of courteous or compassion would require you to consider that you are not even a woman, so why should your opinion supersede a woman’s decision? Based on what?

                The fact that you have routinely used ad hominem attacks clearly shows a genuine inability to see the entire picture, only your own myopic point of view, which reveals a clear sense of animosity and hostility for others that do not happen to share it.

                Please, let it go...

                Peace be with you, John

                Minister Wilson

              3. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Mister Wilson", "I do not think that Lionheart or I are supporters of the former President...". Have you ever read any of his posts at all or even his post to which I replied above because even a very cursory and skimming reading of his posts will reveal to any honest person who reads them his extreme support of our former "President", to the point that he never admits that that guy ever did or said anything wrong, even when the proof that he did is put right in front of his face and comes right out of his guy's own mouth?!! The same as all other fanatical believers in anything or anyone do! This also proves that you didn't actually research his statements before coming out with your statement that "Lionheart isn't a supporter of our former President". If you ask him yourself, and he tells you the truth, he will tell you that he is a Trumpophile. What relevance do his mindset, beliefs, and personality have to his statements or pro-choice? Because he, the same as you, bases his conclusions on faulty ideas and ill or non-researched beliefs, due to his mindset and personality. That is their relevance to this matter. It isn't ad hominem attacking to say that a liar and faulty "thinker"'s conclusions are also lies and faulty, since that just follows from what he is!! Pro-choice, as I told you already, is the inconsistent, hypocritical, and illogical position of people, such as yourself, who weren't aborted in the womb saying that other people should be aborted in the womb!! Faulty and illogical people, in your way, such as yourself, can't produce logical and consistent statements. It's impossible!! That's the relevance. You say that you don't believe in the Golden Rule, but that is just your being dishonest and unthoughtful with yourself because everyone who isn't insane believes in the Golden Rule, since you want other people not to mug or attack or attempt to kill you or lie to you or do anything else to you that they wouldn't want done to themselves, which is the Golden Rule. So, you do believe in the Golden Rule, the same as we all do, no matter how much you say that you don't, and it is a very realistic and reasonable rule required for the existence of our society!! Trumpelstiltskin cares only about himself and any other people or subjects only to the extent that they have any bearing upon his life at all, and so doesn't actually care about pro-life, but pretends to for appearances' sake to his constituents, to keep them supporting him and "Lionheart" follows his Master's lead, since he also only cares about himself and those who are like or near him, and nobody else!! He isn't a Lionheart actually or he would stand up for the truth and think for himself, and not just cowardly follow Republican and conservative propaganda!! My name for him stands!! I'll reply to more of your post later.

              4. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Mr. Wilson", Jesus' calling the scribes and Pharisees whited sepulchres and a brood of vipers because their behavior and thinking had made them such weren't irrelevant to their behavior and thinking or ad hominem attacking of them and not talking about the issue of their hypocrisy and ungodliness, due to focusing only on those people. Jesus' statements about them were totally relevant to the issue of their hypocrisy and ungodliness. Their behavior and thinking made them ever more whited sepulchres and a brood of vipers all the time and their being whited sepulchres and a brood of vipers made them practice such behavior and thinking more and more, in a vicious circle!! So, they were intimately connected and relevant to each other. Likewise, my calling "Lionheart" his actual name of Cowardly Heartless Lyin' because his behavior and thinking make him such and his being a cowardly heartless lying dog make him practice that behavior and thinking more and more in a vicious circle isn't an ad hominem attack or irrelevant to the discussion of his behavior and thinking or the issues. As for you, you aren't an actual minister because you don't meet the requirements for being an actual minister, which are teaching and practicing love for all people, including the unborn, standing up for the defenseless, again especially the unborn, and outspokenly believing in the Golden Rule, instead of only de factoedly believing in it, and so you are just making up the term "minister" for yourself to suit yourself. Members of every other profession have to actually know how to practice their professions or else they don't actually qualify as members of those professions, and it is no different for ministers, since otherwise the term "minister" is meaningless!! President Joe Biden does know that abortions are wrong, but he isn't only the leader of Catholics in this country and has to follow the laws of this country, until Roe v. Wade is overturned. There is enough room for all of us in the world and whatever thinning of the population needs to be done can be done quite well by wars, famine, pestilences, diseases, terrorism, and natural disasters, without abortions being necessary to that process at all. As I told Cowardly Heartless Lyin', your calling anyone else "myopic" is ridiculous, since any realistic encyclopedia would, under the heading of Myopia, have a picture of Trumpophiles and also pro-choice people. Women don't live all by themselves in the world, in which case there wouldn't be any pregnancies at all, and so their actions affect the rest of society, and society's decisions overrule women's decisions. More later.

              5. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Mr. Wilson", you said at the end of your post here "please, let it go", but, as with all pro-choicers' expectations and demands, you expect this letting go to be a totally one-sided affair, wherein pro-lifers and others who disagree with you have to be the ones who should be letting go, while you don't let go of anything!! For the sake of the unborn, we can't let go of our opposition to you and fight to save them from destruction, as long as you aren't letting go of your opposition to them and fight to destroy them!! If all of you let go of all that and consider the unborn and not just women who want to kill them, we will have nothing more (in that area, anyway) to oppose you on and can let go of that, but until you let go, we can't let go, either!! The unborn only have us to defend and speak up for them, since they can't do that for themselves. Are you really so conscienceless and immoral as to believe that the unborn shouldn't have any voices speaking up for them at all and only your voices speaking out against them and their right to live?!! Hardened criminals have lawyers who speak up for them at their trials, even when they are obviously guilty of their crimes, and so why shouldn't innocent unborn children, who have committed no crime, have anyone to speak up for them and defend them from being killed?!! Where is the justice and balance in your point of view and in what you think should be the case?!! Mothers don't have to die because giving birth would kill them, as I have told you repeatedly, since embryonic transplants make that unnecessary, and so saving these mothers' lives isn't a sensible reason to abort their babies. Where mothers won't die from carrying their babies to term, but can't afford to raise them, they can just give them up for adoption the second that they are born and not be bothered by these children's care. Unborn children aren't responsible for how they were conceived (through rape, incest, etc.) and so it is wrong to take that out on them and kill them, which none of us would want done to us if we were conceived through those things, instead of being allowed to live and given to someone else. Anyway, we look at it, your position is totally unfair, unreasonable, cruel, and heartless (to the women, too, who have remorse for the rest of their lives over killing their unborn children, no matter what they tell you, and often have problems and complications from the abortion procedure!). So, you aren't even thinking about these women who abort their babies as much as you claim that you are!! As I told you before, you are the one who is guilty of black and white and either/or thinking, which you accuse me of doing, since you say that it comes down to the woman's life or the baby's life or her having to raise it or its having no home other than foster care at all, when I have shown you that that is a false dichotomy and erroneous choice, because of embryonic transplants and adoption. There is no shortage of people who would love to have children that their mothers don't want or can't keep. So, let those people have those children!! That's just common sense and far more reasonable than destroying them!! Some of them might invent a cure for cancer or some other benefit to society, if only bringing more joy and love into the world, which we deny ourselves by killing them. I'm certainly angry, as you should be, too, at people who would deny us those benefits and only self-centeredly and narrowly care about themselves and what they want for the moment, and not about these unborn children and the greater good of our world. That's the same as Jesus' being angry with the self-centered and hard hearted scribes and Pharisees (the pro-choicers of his time!) and calling them whited sepulchres and a brood of vipers!!!

              6. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Mr. Partin,

                Letting it go...implies that we must agree to disagree because your arguments are not convincing. Religion, especially Christianity, claims that no one is blameless, even the unborn, which are supposedly born with original sin, right?

                Have you ever met an unborn person?

                No, but I bet there are plenty of women that you know. And yet again, you continuously ignore God in your thinking. Is God not powerful and omnipotent enough to stop natural abortions? Not every fertilized egg results in a pregnancy, you know. If every fertilized egg did result in pregnancy, only then would you have a valid argument.

                But you ignore these very facts because,

                1. It clearly shows the ineptitude of God...

                2. You believe that your position is morally correct and somehow supersedes the rights of a living woman’s personal decisions. Which, in your mind, should be tantamount to that of a flowerpot, for men to simply go around planting seeds into, with or without consent.

                Women die giving birth, so who will pay for these embryonic transplants, and under what provisions.

                How about you take all your pent-up aggression and anger and make a charity, which will collect money to pay for these procedures.

                How about you advocate on behalf of gay couples that would like to adopt children.

                How about you lobby for laws that “force” every adult American to give blood and organ tissue samples for children that might need them. It’s all about pro-life, right?

                Furthermore, a woman may develop a unique psychological connection with the nurturing embryo; just giving it up might not be as easy as you think. If something was forcefully implanted into your body—pick whichever hole you deem appropriate—without consent, but you were then forced by the state to leave it there until it hatches, I think your perspective would be very different. And this illustrates a genuine arrogance and actual lack of consideration for women based on this particular myopic point of view.

                Forcing pregnancy to term from rape or incest would be akin to someone breaking into your house, slipping and falling, and then suing you because they have a right to safety and security. It might happen, but it is not right, in my opinion.

                Therefore, your sense of righteous indignation may be based on ignorance and moral reductionism because it fails to regard people, in the here and now, and diminishes their rights to bodily autonomy.

                You are not Jesus, John. But it makes sense that the same pro-life sycophants typically oppose increasing social services, oppose tax increases, want to teach children that Blacks simply immigrated to America, and support bank bailouts.

                So, enough, your arguments are weak, single-minded, and unconvincing, and you must unconsciously realize this to some degree, from your incessant back and forth, you have certainly developed a real cathexis.

                Thus, I am having some difficulty understanding why you cannot see how many other things must not be considered for your position to be truthful, well-reasoned, or acceptable.

                Peace be with you,

                Minister Wilson

              7. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Mr. Wilson", your saying that my "arguments are weak, single-minded, and unconvincing" and that I "have certainly developed a real cathexis" is no different than the rest of the world's blindness toward and refusal to accept the truth of God. Have you ever at all wondered (or do you just not care!) why the Nazis couldn't see that their Holocaust of 6 million Jews and millions of other people was wrong or why white racists couldn't see that their lynchings and beatings and burnings of black people and their homes or churches and discrimination against them were wrong or why serial killers and rapists can't see that they are wrong to do what they do? Or have you ever tried to reason with any of these people to get them to see that they are wrong, only to have them tell you, too, that your arguments against them were "weak, single-minded, and unconvincing", that you had "developed a real cathexis" or whatever other evasions that they could come up with, the same as you? It's because none of the people living in darkness can understand the light or ever agree with it through their own thinking!! There is no argument or point so actually strong that it won't be dismissed as "weak" if it contradicts what people want to believe and how they want to live. This might give you some perspective about yourself and your pro-choice and other views and help you to step back and look at yourself and your views, if anything were ever able to actually do that, which is impossible for you and all these other people!! "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness, instead of light, because their deeds were evil"---John 3:19. "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned"---1 Corinthians 2:14. None of them or you pro-choicers living in darkness will ever be convinced of any truth just through my or other people's talking to you because your minds are darkened and consciences deadened through living in this dark world, but only through the Light of God shining into your hearts and minds and driving out the darkness!! Until then, it's just going to be "weakness, single-mindedness, unconvincing, cathexis, etc." to you, but we still do what we can and tell you the truth, which is all that we can do for you people!! You may need a Saul on the road to Damascus experience yourself and to be knocked off your high horse of pseudo-intellectual and pseudo-sophisticated pretenses and blinded by the Light of God to finally get your proper sight and thinking and heart restored to you or there for the first time!! It is your blindness that keeps you tripping, as blind people do, over the obstacles in your path of some pro-lifers opposing increasing social services and your other complaints and blaming all of that on the pro-life movement as a whole, when we aren't, logically or fairly, responsible for all that!! You have too much to respond to in one post, but I'll reply more later. "You blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel"---Matthew 23:24 (the "gnat" of the unborn children's being living beings and the "camel" of 63 million abortions since Roe v. Wade's not, according to you, being another Holocaust!!).

              8. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Mr. Wilson", I don't just agree to disagree with Nazis, Klansmen, Communists, Fascists, male chauvinists, pro-abortion (excuse me, "pro-choice") people, and many others because all views aren't equal or one way of thinking as good as another, but some ways of thinking are wrong and don't deserve to be just gotten along with and those who hold them told "well, that is just your truth and I have my truth"! Truth can't be made up to suit everyone's whim because then there is no such thing as truth, and all these immoral and rotten philosophies and ways of living above would be perfectly fine and good, which they aren't!! There is a standard for truth, just as there are standards for measurement of distance and weight and all other important matters, and not just everyone's making up their own standards for all these things, which would result in confusion and madness!! How much more do we need a standard for the Truth than we do for these other things and not everyone's believing the truth is whatever they say it is, to suit themselves? You say that God's not stopping all "natural abortions" (a misnomer because abortion is killing a living fetus in the womb, not extraction of an already dead fetus from the womb through miscarriage or medical procedure) "proves that God is inept", but I have already told you many times that nature is corrupted because of the Fall of man and so God isn't responsible for what this corrupted nature does, anymore than He is responsible for the corruption of nature through other actions of man since the original fall, such as global warming, which is the result of carbon emissions and pollution of the atmosphere produced by human beings. God isn't responsible for what we choose to do with our free will, that either help or hurt us. That doesn't make God inept, but many human beings inept, since God isn't going to force people to do right or stop them from doing wrong and interfere with their free will, since that would only be His making our decisions for us and not our doing that for ourselves. But there are consequences to our choices! Why don't God's will and thinking on life seem more important to you than just what every woman or man decides for herself or himself, which would bring us to anarchy, confusion, and madness, as I said before? Why do you think that God isn't real because He doesn't solve all of the problems in the world or jump through everybody's hoops and do tricks for them, like a dog or circus lion or a dancing bear, when you don't think that any human being isn't real just because he or she doesn't jump through hoops or do whatever else you tell them? Isn't God entitled to as much self-determination and respect, if not far more so, as we give to other people? Rape and incest should never happen, but when they do, why should unborn children pay with their lives for what was done to those women when they had nothing to do with it? Why does allowing unborn children to be born from those terrible assaults make women "flower pots", instead of bringing good out of evil or embryonically transplanting these children into other women's wombs? Why shouldn't we bring good out of evil, instead of committing more evil in retaliation for evil? Who will pay for embryonic transplants? The medical insurance or other means that are paying for abortions, and save lives rather than destroy lives. Babies are born as innocent as human beings ever get and deserve to live as much as far guiltier people do! More later!

              9. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Mr. Wilson", you throw out all kinds of complaints and objections here in order to muddy up the waters and in the belief that if you throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick, but I'll answer some of these distractions from the issues that you have put out as camouflage. It isn't thinking of oneself as Jesus to be morally outraged at abortion, unless you are also thinking of yourself as Jesus when you are outraged at anything! Are you also guilty of "moral reductionism" and "ignorance" when you are outraged by whatever it is that outrages you or are you, as usual, operating on a double standard? "Furthermore, a woman may develop a unique psychological connection with the nurturing embryo; just giving it up might not be as easy as you think". Oh, but murdering this embryo that the woman has developed "a unique psychological connection with" will be "easier" and "more humane" for her than just giving it up for adoption or transplanting it into another woman?!! In what universe?!! Because murdering or playing games about murdering isn't more humane or easier on women in this world than are adoption and transplantation!! Why shouldn't good be brought out of the evil of rape or incest, instead of more evil brought out of it, through killing innocent (of any personal wrongdoing) children in the womb, when good was even brought out of the far greater evil than rape or incest of the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis with the creation of the State of Israel?!! Israel may not have been born without that Holocaust's having taken place, which forced the necessity for a Jewish homeland upon the world's thinking! And even apart from such monstrous evils as the Holocaust and the crimes of the Soviet Union and other Communist and other dictatorships, don't we all in the rest of our everyday lives try to bring good out of the bad and evil things that happen to us and, as the saying goes, "When life hands you lemons, you make lemonade". Why would pregnancy through rape or incest be an exception to this general rule and practice of people to bring good out of bad or evil things that happen to them? That makes the rapists and incestuous men win twice: by hurting their women victims and also destroying the children produced by their rotten actions!! Embryonic transplants and adoptions take away these evil men's power over their victims and give the victims power over them!! Christ's death on the Cross shows us that good can overcome evil, despite all the corruption that evil spirits have brought into the Church since it's founding. But they won't be victorious in the end: the powers of Light and Truth will be victorious!! The whole pro-life movement isn't responsible for the actions of some people in it, as concerns opposing tax increases, bank bailouts, black people's "simply immigrating to America", etc., unless all pro-choicers are also to blame for the actions of any in your ranks! Gay couples should be allowed to adopt children, in my view, even if that disagrees with many in the pro-life movement, because it is better for children to have two men or two women raising them, if no straight couples are stepping up to do that, but a man and a woman as parents are still probably the best way of raising children. Even many gay people would say that that is the ideal, but anything is better than killing children because nobody is taking them. I haven't seen angels or God Himself, either, but know that they are there from their effects on the world. So, your statement that I haven't seen a fetus is ridiculous, since that doesn't make them not real!! Your other "points" are irrelevant and just distractions.

              10. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Greetings John,

                So, we are back on Nazis again...

                Yes, John, I think your arguments are weak and unconvincing based on your logic and unequivocal obfuscation of the facts, and this appears to have created a real cathexis for you. There is a difference, John, between ignorance and deliberately being ignorant.

                This is unconvincing logic...(example below)

                While I agree that atrocities exist, I do not think that any of the horrors you mentioned a similar to reproductive rights. As I have said before, I am not trying to convince you to change your mind, only to help you understand the problem with most of your arguments.

                Do you have the mind of God, John? Is your understanding like that of the Lord? It is always interesting when individuals make this claim because they usually have no way of disproving it.

                How would you provide evidence for God’s Light coming into the world, other than the star we are currently orbiting? Especially in light of all these atrocities.

                Biblical poetry and quixotic religious zealotry are not a sufficient means for contesting shrimp eating, mixing fabrics, killing gays, stoning unruly children, etc. You speak of free will yet ignore the bible’s complete endorsement of owning people as property.

                You claim that;

                "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned"---1 Corinthians 2:14. So, in your mind, you believe that you are not a “natural person” because you accept things originating from the Spirit of God...

                You also claim that;

                “God isn't responsible for what we choose to do with our free will, that either help or hurt us. That doesn't make God inept, but many human beings inept, since God isn't going to force people to do right or stop them from doing wrong and interfere with their free will, since that would only be His making our decisions for us and not our doing that for ourselves.”

                Thus, I have asked you on several occasions why a woman should choose your rationale over her own, John?

                So, you must believe that you understand God’s spirit better than God; therefore, people (women) should be forced to carry children against their free will simply because John says so? Because you seem to have no problem forcing women to bear children against their free will, therefore, you believe that you are better than God, John.

                This is ignorance...(example below)

                Embryonic transplants are for fertilized eggs, John, which have yet to be planted in the uterine walls, where the fertilized egg that has been left to grow for several days is “placed in the woman’s uterus” where it will hopefully implant, become a fetus, and result in the birth of a healthy child.

                Embryonic transplants are not taking a pregnancy from one woman and placing it into another... Again, your arrogance from a keen insight of “God’s Light” believes that these procedures should occur irrespective of the woman’s choice or consent, and that seems perfectly okay with you...due to your unnatural acceptance of God’s Spirit.

                The same God that you claim “isn't responsible for what we choose to do with our free will, that either help or hurt us”...

                Ya, this makes no sense John...

                And the fact that you see no contradiction here is problematic.

                Please, address these inconsistencies in your logic and knowledge if you can, without using Nazis...

                Take care,

                Minister Wilson

              11. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson", your "thinking" that "my arguments are weak and unconvincing" is still the result of your darkened and disordered state of soul, heart, and mind, and so is unrealistic, irrelevant, and unthinking. You were shown how other ungodly people would also dismiss your questioning and points about them as "weak, single-minded, unconvincing, cathexis", and all the same evasions that you give about my questioning and points about you, and you couldn't take a hint from all that and see its relevance to your own "thinking" and behavior to gain any perspective and self-knowledge about yourself at all!! That reveals a total lack of openness to understanding and learning the truth about yourself!! The other ungodly people are as incapable of understanding the truth about themselves as you are and it is as pointless to try to reason with them as it is with you and get all of you to see that you are wrongheaded and wrong hearted. "Inconsistencies" according to an actually inconsistent person, such as yourself, are the result of your own wrongheaded and wronghearted state of "thinking" and so just in your own mind, and will be until God shines His light into your heart and mind and drives out all that darkness!! The natural person is one who lives and "thinks" only according to ungodly and purely natural ways of "thinking" and living and does what is right in his own eyes, instead of in God's eyes. A godly person is also a human being and naturally a person, but one who doesn't just follow his own thinking and tries to follow God's truth. Your not knowing this or pretending that you don't in order to "justify" your "thinking" and my having to explain this to you are more proof (if any more proof were necessary) that you aren't actually a minister, but only making up the term "minister" for yourself to suit yourself. The difference between a natural person and a godly person is obvious to all right thinking people and to everyone to whom it can be obvious, and if it isn't obvious to you, there is an obvious reason for that: you aren't a spiritually minded and living person and can't tell the difference!! It is your job as a minister (or would be, if you were an actual minister) to lead people toward righteousness and not to be led by them by your nose into whatever unrighteousness that they want to lead you! You are supposed to be a Shepherd for people and not just another one of the sheep or, worse yet, a wolf in sheep's clothing, as you actually are!! It is God, not me, who says to women that they should honor the lives in their wombs and not kill them, which you would know if you were actually a minister of God, instead of the phony that you are, and not be saying that women should "obey John"!! The NY Times, Vox, Cleveland Clinic, and the article "Womb Transplant Babies" online say that embryonic transplants from one woman to another and/or uterus transplants are possible and being done, and there are many more such articles, but, of course, they should have consulted you first before issuing their statements, since you "know more about it than they do", in your own mind, anyway. If you were having a conversation just with yourself, which probably happens all the time, since you are the only person who agrees with you, you could say what would be allowed in the conversation and what is "relevant" or "irrelevant", but when you are in a conversation with another person, you don't get to control and manipulate the conversation and keep out of it what you say "doesn't belong in it". Your not seeing the relevance (or pretending that you don't) of Nazis to the discussion of this Holocaust of the unborn, even if you refuse to admit that it is a Holocaust because that would hurt your case for abortion, is your misunderstanding and problem, as usual, and not anything actually irrelevant with mentioning them. Your saying "Ya, this makes no sense, John" about a statement of God's Truth is still more evidence that you aren't an actual minister. You aren't a realistic judge of what is "ignorance", considering your own statements. There isn't much point in having any more "conversation" with someone as dishonest with himself and everyone else as you are, and so we can stop doing so and wasting my time, efforts, and energy, as far as I'm concerned, and whenever you want to stop. That would be great!!

              12. Minister Wilson's Avatar Minister Wilson

                Mr. Partin,

                So, we are back to ad hominem attacks, strawmen, deliberately mischaracterizing facts, intentional ignorance, and now you are appealing to purity or the “no true Scotsman” fallacy...

                Your continuous attacks on my character and incessant besmirching of my ministerial capacity do very little to strengthen your argument, John. If you are here to brow-beat or bully members into agreeing with you, you may want to go elsewhere since neither your rhetoric nor bloviating detours me or anyone else.

                Throughout all of our discussions, you have consistently referred to “embryonic transplants” as a viable alternative to abortion. So, when I finally pointed out that those procedures “...are not taking a pregnancy from one woman and placing it into another,”...

                Your response was;

                “The NY Times, Vox, Cleveland Clinic, and the article “Womb Transplant Babies” online say that embryonic transplants from one woman to another and/or uterus transplants are possible and being done, and there are many more such articles, but, of course, they should have consulted you first before issuing their statements, since you “know more about it than they do”, in your own mind, anyway.”

                So,

                (1). Embryonic transplants and Uterine transplants are not the same things.

                (2). “Uterine transplants have enabled more than a dozen women to give birth, usually with wombs “donated” from a living donor such as a friend or relative. In December, doctors in Brazil reported the world’s “first birth using a deceased donor’s womb”. These transplants were pioneered by a Swedish doctor who did the first successful one five years ago” (AP, 2019).

                I have never said that embryonic transplants OR uterine transplants cannot be done (strawman)...

                To be clear, I wrote that “embryonic transplants” are not taking a pregnancy from one woman and placing it into another...which, as you found out, was factually accurate.

                So, instead of conceding the point, you now say; “...embryonic transplants from one woman to another and/or uterus transplants are possible and being done...” attempting to infer that uterus (sic) uterine transplants are what you meant the whole time. (deliberately mischaracterizing facts or intentional ignorance, I will just let readers decide).

                Well, the problem with this new position is that it is even more bewildering than before.

                So, John, do you believe that a woman seeking an abortion after experiencing rape or incest should instead have their uterus removed to save an embryo?

                Because uterine transplants remove the woman’s uterus. (See this part, John, “...usually with wombs “donated” from a living donor such as a friend or relative...”). This also suggests that the procedure requires free will and consent from the woman, John.

                Moreover, you claim that 63 million abortions have taken place since Roe vs. Wade, right. As of 2019, more than a dozen have successfully had this procedure, which was not even possible five years prior (AP, 2019).

                Last I checked (more than a dozen, since 2019) is a lot less than 63 million, right, John.

                So, according to you, a woman would just have to wait until they can start mass-producing uterine transplants, and any woman seeking an abortion would need to have her entire uterus removed so she could never get pregnant again. And what is even worse is that you believe that those women seeking an abortion should all be forced into giving up their wombs, simply because uterine transplants are “possible”... (that is just silly, John).

                Be honest, John (if you can), you lost this debate...

                As I said before, we can agree to disagree, but you continued to go on and on, so I am glad at least now you are ready to give up, stop, and simply let it go...

                Your solutions and alternatives refer to dark forces, light and dark, godly and ungodly and egregious procedures without the woman’s consent; just stop, John, it is becoming embarrassing for you.

                I will not broach this topic with you anymore because you are not being honest, your thinking is clouded by emotions, and you are not secure enough in your person to admit when you are wrong on any point that has been clearly laid out for you.

                Peace be with you, John,

                Minister Wilson

                References

                AP. (2019, July 9). In US 1st, baby is born from dead donor’s transplanted womb. Retrieved from Associated Press: https://apnews.com/article/north-america-oh-state-wire-health-us-news-brazil-c328217fa0ba43afa258067701ba3aee

              13. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson" if you want to erroneously believe that my or anyone else's saying that there are actual requirements for ministers beyond just what everyone decides for himself or herself is "the no true Scotsman fallacy", "ad hominem", "ad hoc", "ad luminem", "ad infinitum", "ad nauseam", "strawmen" or anything else that you want to mischaracterize it as, well, of course, that is just what you people always do, but that, quite obviously, doesn't make it true. The Bible itself says that there are requirements for ministers and just everyone with any thinking or behavior whatsoever doesn't actually qualify as a minister, and it isn't indulging in "the no true Scotsman fallacy" or any other of your evasions when it does so, but merely stating the obvious truth and reasonable thinking on the matter. "And many false Prophets will arise and will deceive many" (Matthew 24:11). "For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" (2 Corinthians 11:13-14). "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven". And many other Scriptures, which I don't quote, so as to not turn this post into one long listing of Scripture verses, and not have any space left for my own statements. But it can't be wrong to make these distinctions or "bullying" or "browbeating" you or anyone else just to tell you these truths and distinctions which the Bible itself states. You are guilty of the Throw The Baby Out With The Bathwater Fallacy and because of some statements and actions in the Bible about shrimp eating, mixing fabrics, stoning of unruly children, and the Bible writers' (not God's!) endorsement of owning people as property, you dismiss the entire rest of the Bible as being the Word of God and worthy of anyone's belief! The Bible, the same as any other book actually written by human beings, no matter how divinely inspired, is going to have some human thoughts, laws, and customs in it, and it is the history of God's dealings with these people, and their history, too, but we shouldn't, on that account, dismiss all of it indiscriminately or only accept the parts that we like. You false ministers, as the Bible itself (not just John Partin) calls you, believe, in practice, in telling people what they want to hear, instead of what they need to hear, which are usually not the same thing, and going along with them in their wrong thinking and living, and being blind leaders of the blind!! And both of you falling into the ditch, as Jesus said!! "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate to themselves teachers to suit their own desires" (2 Timothy 4:3). "We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people's trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming" (Ephesians 4:14). Your saying that I "lost this debate" is merely what your ungodly kind have always been saying about the Truth of God, but the Truth of God is still here and victorious, despite all your claims of "defeating that Truth and winning the debate", since self-deceit is what you people do to yourselves!! "God is dead" said Friedrich Nietzsche, but God had the last and true word and said "Nietzsche is dead", and says that same thing over every grave of a God denier and hater!! Dark forces, light and dark, godly and ungodly aren't irrelevant considerations, as you and your ilk claim, but merely the Truth of God and reasonable thinking and common sense!! Your accusing me or anyone else of being "dishonest", considering your own statements and "thinking", is really the whole pot factory's calling a single kettle "black"!! No more room now, but more later.

              14. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson", rather than endlessly going back and forth on this point of your saying that the purely human law, which gives women the "right" to murder their unborn children, is all that matters, and my forever disagreeing with you about that, and your and other pro-choicers' blood thirstiness, desire for carnage, and indifference to the unborn making all of you not even be willing to consider any other options to that genocide or (God forbid!) someone's just putting up with a little inconvenience and discomfort and letting a person be born, so that they can be given to someone else, let's get to the central issue that God says that it is wrong!! Case closed for all people who care what God says about anything and don't deny that God even exists or has said anything about this at all!! We should no more be feeding unborn children into the mouth of our modern Moloch of the abortion industry than that should have been done to children 3,000 years ago in sacrifice to their Pagan God Moloch, to appease it!! Appeasing evil things or people never works, as we saw in relatively modern times with trying to appease Hitler and see now with trying to appease the abortion industry, because they always want more concessions and sacrifices!! Why do you claim to be "in favor of women's rights and health" while supporting the abortion industry, which doesn't care about women's rights or health or anything other than its own profits?!! The bottom line is that there are consequences to your actions of supporting the abortion industry and not defending the unborn from destruction. You pro-choicers have convinced yourselves that just because there are no consequences here for your advocacy of mass murder or not standing up for the unborn, there aren't ever going to be any consequences at all for that and you will get away scot free for all that. But you haven't died yet, where the bulk of the consequences for your actions will be felt by you and your ilk. God will not hold him guiltless who sheds innocent blood. This world isn't all that there is, but there is a life after this life, as paranormal phenomena can easily prove to you or any other skeptic (and has, when the spirits appear to them and stare them in their faces!). Some people have to learn the hard way and you pro-choicers are certainly among those people! Hell isn't a police state or threat to keep people in line, but merely the consequences of their own actions. We don't live in a consequence free universe! If people won't obey human laws because it's the right thing to do, how about because they will go to jail or prison if they don't? Likewise, if people won't obey God's laws because that's the right thing to do, how about because they will spend eternity in Hell if they don't? Hell doesn't care if you don't believe in it and, in fact, gets people more when they don't believe in it because they take no precautions against it. You won't be in doubt about it if you get there, as you will if you continue your present "thinking", and God asks you if you stood up for the unborn or said "Go ahead and kill them". No more space again, but more later.

              15. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson", God overrules the Supreme Court, even if you have deceived and blinded yourself to the point that you "think" that "the Supreme Court overrules God"!! The Lord of all the Universe versus one court in one country on this relative speck of dust in the vastness of the universe!! Even you, if you were thinking correctly, should be able to see and admit that God wins absolutely in that contest, and if you don't see that, that is one more proof that you don't come up to the standards and requirements of an actual minister, which put God and His will above the decisions of any merely human judiciary. It can't be right to have standards and requirements for ministry and all other professions, but "the no true Scotsman fallacy" and wrong to expect you and other people to live up to those standards and requirements, because, then, there is no point to having standards and requirements, which nobody has to live up to or they can merely interpret for themselves if they are doing so, instead of objectively evaluating if they are doing so. That would be insanity (and is for you and other people!) and you can't have it both ways!! God's getting in the way of what people want to do, think, and say is why so many people throughout history and today have rejected belief in God and said that "God is dead", from ancient Rome to the Renaissance to the French Revolution to Friedrich Nietzsche to the Soviet Union to Nazi Germany to billions of individuals in this world!! Human self-centeredness and egotism don't, in fact, overrule the will of God or make Him non-existent, even if they have blindly, as you have, convinced themselves and yourself that they do!! It is your job (or would be if you were an actual minister, instead of making up the term "minister" to suit yourself!) to lead people out of self-centered, self-justifying, and egotistical "thinking" into the Truth of God, and not be going along with them in that "thinking" and being one of their Pied Pipers of Hamlin, leading them down to destruction!! The proof of God's existence and concern for the world, for Cowardly Heartless Lyin' and other atheists in here, is the synchronization, calibration, coordination, and planning evident in the universe, which blind and unthinking nature is incapable of doing!! There is no shortage of this evidence for God's existence and concern for the world, but the problem is with the minds of those who are looking at this evidence, who have set their minds against any evidence for God's existence and blocked all of that out of their minds, as you have, and won't believe any evidence even when it is right in front of their faces, the same as they would reject the existence of spirits, despite their appearing to them and staring them in their faces!! That is their version of "open-mindedness" and "scientific thinking". None are so blind as those who will not see!!

              16. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson", you complain about the prohibitions of shrimp eating, mixing fabrics, the stoning of unruly children, and the Bible writers' "endorsement of owning people as property" (not God's ordering any of these things, but only what was ascribed to God) and say that "Biblical poetry and quixotic religious zealotry" (your term for Saul's experience on the road to Damascus) don't excuse any of these things because you have still failed to understand, since it would be inconvenient to your position for you to understand, that God isn't responsible for the negative things that people attribute to Him and isn't going to stop people from doing that, anymore than He stops people from doing any other evil things and make the decision not to do so for them and isn't actually defined by any of that!! You constantly misunderstand my and other people's statements and think that what we are telling you that God has revealed to us about Himself in His Word and teaching is our "understanding God's spirit better than God", but if you or anyone else tells us something about yourself or himself, we aren't said to "know you or him better than either of you do"! That is very inconsistent "thinking" on your part!! The atrocities in the world don't disprove God's light coming into and being in the world because, as I said about Nazi Germany and the Holocaust of the Jews, God brings good even out of that monstrous evil with the creation of the State of Israel and overcomes the evil!! He overcomes all other evils, in His time. Your not believing or knowing that is even more proof that you aren't actually a minister, but have only made up the term to suit yourself!! Saul's experience on the road to Damascus is another example of God's overcoming evil with good, as is every other conversion experience. As I have already told you in my earlier post, you won't ever be able to understand the truth of God or what I'm saying to you here until God shines His light into your heart, mind, and soul, and so there is no point in talking to you anymore until God does so to you, unless God would use my words to open your heart and mind. I pray that He will do so.

              17. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson", I'm very happy that you are, at least, finally being honest with yourself and admitting that you are incapable of responding intelligently to 4 posts of mine, one after another, and are admitting that I'm correct about your false "minister" claim, as defined by Scripture itself!! That is an excellent start for your reclamation or beginning of true minister status by the Spirit of Christ, and so continue along that path and you will, in God's good time, get there and be amazed at the transformation in yourself, as well as amazing everyone else who knows you!! That was Saul's conversion experience and has been the experience of all others, who have converted to the Truth!! You will be very happy with that decision and your new life!!

              18. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson" has shown me that I don't need to be trying to convince him of something that he already believes, which is the correctness of pro-life principles and thinking, but merely to bring him back again to who he really is and what he really believes, which is a pro-life person and pro-life, since that has been clouded and confused in all "pro-choicers" minds, due to indoctrination and peer pressure against it! Nobody actually believes in "pro-choice" and it doesn't actually exist, but that is merely a popular delusion and misunderstanding and the result of propaganda and brainwashing. Everyone actually believes in pro-life, since all people are instinctively and unavoidably revolted by the evidence of abortions put right in front of their faces, the same as they are by pictures of piles of bodies of Holocaust victims put right in front of them!! The harder they claim that they are "for abortions and pro-choice", the more that they actually prove that they are merely repeating their indoctrination and brainwashing, not their true thinking and beliefs. Everyone actually believes in the Golden Rule and knows its importance and necessity in this world, since we all want others to do to us only what they would want done to themselves and not do to us what they wouldn't want done to themselves, which is the Golden Rule. To the extent that people live according to that rule, life works, and to the extent that they don't, life stops working! Not aborting the unborn is merely doing unto them as we would want others to do unto us, and so, of course, nobody actually is in favor of "pro-choice" or abortions, since we all know that that violates the Golden Rule that we want the rest of the time. So, we just have to be patient and keep working with these poor confused and clouded thinking "pro-choicers" and bring them back to their pro-life beliefs and who they really are! That is our responsibility and obligation of love toward these and all other lost people! They will thank us later for our intervention and work with them!

              19. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Only someone who loves looking at pictures of aborted babies all the time or wants to be the abortion "doctor" for all of them would be an actual supporter of the REALITY!! of abortions and "pro-choice", which permits those abortions to happen, instead of merely the abstract and impersonal theory of abortions and "women's rights'. This person would be mentally sick, sadistic, and totally conscienceless and immoral, and would fit right in with all the other perverted people in the world!! All the rest of the sane and moral people of the world, who are repulsed by pictures of aborted fetuses, even if some of them claim to be "pro-choice" (due to their indoctrination and brainwashing for it), are actually pro-life. Their instinctive and undeniable repulsion at the sight of the aborted children tells the true story, no matter what they say!! Even if they could disguise their reaction from others or even from themselves, inwardly they would still know the truth of how they actually feel!! Pro-life is the only truly intelligent, sane, respectable, responsible, and moral position on the unborn, and what everyone, who isn't insane and depraved, actually believes, no matter how much or vehemently their indoctrination makes them deny it!!

              20. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Comment has been removed.

              21. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                I would greatly appreciate any honest and reasonable responses to the points and questions that I sent to "Wilson" in my 7 posts above to him, which he is unwilling or unable to give me. I'll be looking for to all such replies.

              22. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson" and other such like-"minded" people here believe that their not being open to being convinced by something is the same as its "not being convincing", as it is convincing to all of the rest of us, but that is, quite clearly, merely the result of their very low level of maturity. We have to make allowances for such people and pray for their recovery from their limitations.

              23. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                For all of you here who agree with "Wilson" that what you aren't open to being convinced about is the same as "something that isn't convincing", Truth isn't restricted by your games and limitations that you try to impose on it, but continues on its triumphant way, despite all of that, and you are only keeping yourselves from seeing and admitting the Truth and not at all stopping Truth from being Truth. We can only keep praying for you that you will recover from your spiritual and moral blindness and stop viewing life so narrowly and trying to put Truth in a stranglehold and contortion, placing yourselves, unrealistically, above God and reality!!

              24. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                "Wilson" and all who "think" as he does believe that their not being open to being convinced by something or fair-minded about it is the same as its "not being convincing", as it would be to all open-minded and fair-minded people, but it's obvious to the rest of us that they aren't the same thing at all. We just have to make allowances for such people and take into account their very low level of maturity, but they do need, seriously, to grow up!! All that we can do for such people is pray for them and wish them recovery from their problems as soon as possible --- for them.

              25. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

                Thank you for your warm wishes and your self therapeutic post. Good news for Biden, I think his approval rating is holding steady at 38%. Try not to worry so much that his rating had dropped in the fastest time ever for any new President, even Trump, hopefully it can't get any worse....can it? Stay tuned on that!

                🦁♥️

              26. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                My wishes for you (I'm tired of saying your name every time, since you know your actual name and what you are by now!!) are ever so much warmer than you could ever be able to stand or want, forever, and it just doesn't get any warmer or hotter 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥 than what I wish for you!!! And let's not wait until then, when it will be done perfectly and permanently, but give you some of that warmth and heat right now!! Yes, it was very therapeutic, as it always is, for me to send you those very very warm and burning hot wishes, and I'm certainly glad that you enjoy being told that you should definitely receive all that heat and are looking forward to it (a most unusual reaction for anyone's being told that they should be introduced to those blessings), but we will see whether you still feel that way when you receive them!!! In any case, I will continue to send you the very warmest and scaldingly and excruciatingly fiery wishes here and always!!! However, you haven't yet started on your own therapy of being honest about your own feelings and thoughts here and begin benefitting yourself in that way, too, and giving yourself part of those blessings that you should be getting for yourself!! So, do begin that self-therapy for yourself, too, as we all wish that you would do, since this therapy business is a two way street, not just a one way street. Good news for Trumpelstiltskin, in that he isn't still "President" for his ratings to drop any lower than they were before he got booted out of the White House, but the bad news is that his ratings since leaving the White House have continued to drop among all thinking people, which leaves you drones of his out of the picture!! I was rather looking forward to your guy's being kicked in the behind down the White House stairs on the news and out the front door and told to get the Hell out!!! (which would have been very excellent and helpful therapy for him, too, and for the country about him), but it is good therapy to get that out about him and feels very good!!! Your guy's ratings now can't get any worse...or can they?!! Again, don't be so obsessed against our dear President Joe Biden or for your guy, since that isn't at all conducive to your mental health. Write a longer post next time and start getting your own true feelings out and start working on yourself here or else keep your posts as they are and as short as possible!!

              27. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

                Looking at some of your other looooong reply postings to others on this blog, and not just to me, in disagreement with your thoughts, I see you seem to have some sort of "need" to do that. If it helps you in any way, I really do respectfully suggest you continue. Thank you for your input. It really is ok to think the way you, it's what this country is all about, freedom and liberty. 🤗

                🦁♥️

              28. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Looking at all of your very short and evasive posts to others on this blog, and not just to me, in disagreement with all of our thoughts, I see that you seem to have some sort of "need" to do that, mainly because you aren't capable of doing anything else!! If that helps you in any way, since it's not helping anyone else, please continue.We all understand that that's the best that you can do. It's okay to "think" the way that you do because it's the best that you can do. That IS!! what this country is all about, freedom and liberty, but just because it's your right to do it doesn't make it your obligation and responsibility to do it, which is a much higher duty than merely the practice of basic rights. Hopefully, even you will understand that, someday.

              29. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

                Your parrot replies are all you seem to have. No original thought. I look forward to your next one 🤪

                🦁❤️

              30. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

                Your replies are parrotings of all your other evasive replies and show no original thought at all!!

  1. Richard Lee Cornell's Avatar Richard Lee Cornell

    With a $10,000 bounty on the heads of Texas lawmakers by the Mexican Drug Cartel, it could also apply to those of the cloth. When women in England (1900's) were told they could not vote in any elections, they march. When the women were attack by the drunks from the pubs. They burn the pubs. When the local Christian churches told the women marches that they were process by the Devil the pastors became Eunuchs. Their churches were also burn. When those in power laugh at the women being beaten up, their homes were attack and damage. During a session of Parliament the Lords found out how serious the women were. The glass in the windows were shatter by women with stones and sling shots. That was in a country where owning a firearm was for only the rich folks. Not like in Texas where owning a firearm is a right and duty of anyone who loves freedom Even women who think that the Texas lawmakers are the Devil, have armed themselves.

  1. Candice Beairs'Hodge's Avatar Candice Beairs'Hodge

    Most of those so call Christian has one or more abortion in they like that no one know. Taxes is go to have woman young girls going out of state or sinking to get it done in state, but the law is not going to stop them if they are going to d I like I said they will just GO OUT OF STATE THEIR BODY THEIR CHOICE.

    1. John D. Partin's Avatar John D. Partin

      Candice Beairs'Hodge, I'll ask you, as I have asked other people here who say that abortion only involves a woman's body alone and so it only concerns them, would you have wanted your own mother to have only thought of herself and said "My body, my choice", and not to have given any thought to or concern about you at all, and just gone ahead and aborted you or would you want her to have cared about you and given you a chance to be born and live? Be honest about that! If you would want her to have given you a chance to be born, why shouldn't you and other pro-choice people follow suit and think that other unborn children should also be given the chance to be born and their mothers not just think about themselves and kill those children? Why don't you believe in doing unto others as you would have others do unto you? Because if you shouldn't care about that, that makes it "alright", by your example, for other people not to care about that, either, and do to you and other people what they wouldn't want done to themselves, including attacks, rape, murder, mugging, etc. That is the door that we are opening by saying that women shouldn't do for their unborn babies what they would have wanted their mothers to have done for them and let them live and "HER BODY, HER CHOICE"!! Think about it and tell me what you think.

  1. William J Allen's Avatar William J Allen

    Abortion should be limited to rape and incest or where the mother's life is in danger if she has a child but it is up to the woman to decide if she wants the child.

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