California just unveiled a new monument outside the state Capitol building, replacing a previous statue torn down by protesters in 2020.
The statue of Junipero Serra, an 18th century Catholic priest and missionary, had long been a flash point for Native American activists.
They argued that the priest, who was canonized in 2015 by Pope Francis, was actually a brutal abuser who forced Catholic conversion on the indigenous population.
Now, a new statue has been erected in its place, this time honoring Native American heritage.
Out With the Old
The statue of Serra, created in 1967 by the artist Maurice Loriaux, was one of many statues toppled by racial justice protesters during the summer of 2020, in the wake of the police murder of George Floyd.
Related: We Should Also Tear Down Statues of Jesus, Activists Say
For many Native Americans, it was a long time coming. The statue was a rallying cry for Native American activists, who widely view the Spanish missionary as a cruel colonizer.
Renowned in his lifetime, Serra worked for decades establishing 8 of the 21 Catholic missions in California, and his work reached tens of thousands of Native Americans.
For centuries, history taught of a gentle Franciscan monk who left the comforts of home to humbly spread the gospel in the dangerous and untamable west. But critics say that Serra’s missions only brought disease, violence, and forced religious conversions to California’s Native American population.
Historical Moment, Historical Monument
Dedicated to the Northern California tribes once displaced by European colonizers, the new statue was unveiled on November 7th of this year to an audience of hundreds gathered in Sacramento’s Capitol Park.
The statue depicts William J. Franklin Sr., of the Miwok tribe. Franklin Sr. was a renowned member of Sacramento’s indigenous community, well-known for his commitment to keeping the cultural dances and oral traditions of California’s Miwok population alive.
“Mr. Franklin was a teacher of native culture and he understood that our stories, songs and culture need to be shared and taught to new generations,” explains James C. Ramos, California’s first Native American elected to the state Legislature.
“As Native Americans, we have been invisible, romanticized, minimized, or disparaged for centuries. That is not easily or quickly undone. But today I am proud to be Native American and proud to be a Californian.”
Thanksgiving Symbolism
Although the timing of this move being so close to Thanksgiving could be coincidence, it is nevertheless symbolic.
Americans have long viewed the history of the holiday through a rather rosy lens, and school textbooks often included depictions of the first Thanksgiving that featured peaceful pilgrims and Natives sitting down at the table of brotherly love.
We now know the truth was quite a bit more complicated.
Many Native Americans view the original Thanksgiving as anything but celebratory, considering it kicked off hundreds of years death, destruction, and displacement of their people.
Interestingly, there is also substantial evidence that the Thanksgiving traditions we celebrate today are "borrowed" from pagan and Native American faith customs.
402 years after the first Thanksgiving, some argue it is quite fitting that a Native American is now being honored in the place of a religious missionary from Europe.
What is your reaction?
105 comments
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Amber M. Castleman
Let this new statue remain forever
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Russel A. Kester
Another reason I'm glad I left that leftist-activist state. Statues of significant persons of the past should be left as is not torn down. Those who do are idiots. But California deserves these pathetic people as its budget is reflecting. The state should be tearing apart professors and teachers indoctrinating our children and youth with activist nonsense. Sad story.
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Steven Ferrell
Could they not have had both?
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Erik Facundo
We are all native to Asia and Africa, My ancestors we amongst the first 500 nations of hunters who followed the game into North America settled their families, built cities, and created art. They carved the cliffs of Choko canyon and Masa Verde built the pyramid of the sun and were the first stewards of the land. The Spanish and English colonists virtually erased that off the map and memories of the first people's of North America. This monument isn't the answer to what was done but it's the beginning of a dialogue that might lead to acknowledgment that American history as it is being taught is a mythology of exceptionalism that isn't historical facts. And what is being done to the first people's of this nation is also what makes it a lie when someone says America is great. When actually it is great for a chosen few.
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Rev Frankie PG
Freedom of Religion, is perfectly emblazoned in the U.S. Bill of Rights. Sadly, many barbaric events did happen because of the Spanish, Europeans, French and others that ruled these lands before the United States of America was ever declared. Thanksgiving is a time of giving thanks, not only to God but each other as well. It is a time of remembering those who came before us and especially those that gave sacrifices so that we may be the country we are today. I am a proud second generation descendent of the Chahtas People and grew up in California, having pride of what the colonizers, especially the Americans, did to form a more perfect union. I am filled with joy knowing that more native ancestral leaders are being recognized and praised today but I am also torn that so many pioneers are negated due to the cries of a few. A great portion of California was formed by religious leaders (Mormon, Christian, Catholic, etc.) and they should not be forgotten either. Today California leaders have led people into a hate of the United States of America falsely because they don't proclaim the truths of how the great strides the Americans have brought about condemning the practices of other countries. Thanksgiving is a day of pride for all, very rarely do we, especially as Americans stop to give thanks to each other and to those who got us to where we are.
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Dent L. Sweem
Code talkers did indeed save lives probably countless thousands. However one must never lose sight of who gave and sacrificed the most upon our alter of freedom. I'm not a racist but I am a Irish/American Nationalist. I can honestly say since the beginning of the War of Independence all the way through until this last my ancestors has been in the thick of each and every one of them. The Civil War my family fought even eachother! NEVER EVER TEAR DOWN STATUES! Just put more of them up! America has a place for everyone? This must also remain for EVERYONE! This Country is big enough for us all! Put up your own Statues! Fight your own Wars! Gain your own Glory! Make your own History! DO NOT TRY TO DEPRIVE OTHERS OF THEIRS!
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I wish, that when the gov't got all PC a couple years ago and started renaming all the military bases that were named after Confederate leaders, taht they had renamed them after Native Americans, particularly the Code talkers.
I'm not into the "destroy history to make certain people feel good" movement, but if anyone has earned it, the Code Talkers did. Those guys saved tens of thousands of Allied lives.
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Dent L. Sweem
Sick of Communists people that think they're owed something for being conquered in the first place. That sums up how alot of us feel! With such attitudes alot of us wonder if we can live in peace! If nothing else we should split the country up and watch who fails and who succeeds? Love to take this bet! I would say God bless but God hates Commies
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Catherine
@Dent L. Sweem
Guessing it hasn't occurred to you yet, that the U.S. never really got the foothold as an independent country that most U.S. citizens think happened. That foreign interests control the United States more than most born and raised here. Sound familiar?
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Dent L. Sweem
OMG talking that bank of England thing? Geez... Try that in court and let me know how that works our for you?
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Catherine
No, I'm not talking about 'that bank of England thing'.
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John Komorowski
Yep.
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Thomas Christopher Medina
Really? All this chatter for what? We're all aware of what humans are capable of. Unfortunately it isn't always honorable or just. Man has been wronging one another from the beginning of his existence. If you're a bible person you have Eve and Adam, or Cane and able. If you're not a bible person, there are numerous examples throughout history. Stop concerning yourselves with yesterday and try to make a difference today. By the way, none of our so called territories or nations ever belonged to anyone, that's just an idea that we were sold. If you can't take it with you, then it didn't belong to you in the first place.
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Rev Ned
Parkman wrote concisely that when it came to the indigenous Americans, the Spanish enslaved them, the British spurned them and the French embraced them.
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Susan Christine Giganti
Serra was eventually appointed as an Inquisitor because there were no Jesuits in his area. He accused women of witchcraft. His primary job was to convert the Native population so they would be a grateful , obedient workforce for the Spanish Empire. He treated the Native People who converted to the Catholic faith less crappy than the ones who did not convert. He allowed Spanish Soldiers to do the same. He did beat men, women, and children. He got canonized because he built a few missions/churches after walking miles and miles around California with a sore leg. The Native People hated him.
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James A. Ridings
To: Rev. MichaelRS, You have told it as it is. I agree with you wholeheartedly. No one should be allowed to destroy a work of art and an historical monument just because that person disagrees with what happened in times past. The brutality of the Indians/Native Americans to other tribes (and often to their own) was a part of history. Maybe, the statues of Native American "heroes" should be placed only on Native American property. OR, why not put up two statues for each group to appreciate? I urge you, Rev. MichaelRS to continue to educate the unlearned on what really happened in North America.
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Catherine
@James A. Ridings
Really? Why not cut to the chase then and replace all monuments and statues with those of leaders from other countries running this one?
A dictionary will clarify differences between conflict vs genocide.
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Billy Foppiano
BTW, there's another huge statue of Junipera Sera, near the S. Bay Area. Replace it with Harvey Milk.....or Geronimo.
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Billy Foppiano
Well, if the natives would have controlled their borders, you'd be someplace else. That'd be okay with me. You seem like a hateful person.
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Catherine
@Billy Foppiano
https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/public/gdcmassbookdig/cicerodeofficius00cice/cicerodeofficius00cice.pdf
Each time someone comments as you do, indigenous people win. They were not weak, stupid, nor ignorant of what is important about life.
They didn't comprehend 'protecting borders' because owning land or any part of nature was not part of their way of understanding life.
"Treatise de Officiis which may properly be termed the whole duty of man"
In essays and letters to his son, Cicero talks about "law of the land" as if there had once been a long established understanding that peoples anywhere could assume safety, shelter, food, and water wherever they traveled as long as the guest did not do something stupid like force their beliefs and practices over that of the host. At which point, they get what they deserve.
Which lands or peoples is ambiguous. The point is, at one time people preferred to coexist and valued life more than than they didn't.
What indigenous people in America did not do, was respond poorly to bad behavior. As much as many still suffer for leaders holding out as long as they could against bad behavior, I think they still win in terms most of us do not want to comprehend.
Crack ignorant jokes and make ignorant comments as much as you please. None of that will ever make a worthwhile difference to anyone.
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Wilberta M. Berry
Yes very good trade.
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Patricia A Smith
It is understood that we must learn the true meaning of a holiday . That thanksgiving is not what the colonists made it out to be . I feel must study. We also need to ask for more information before just jumping into a holiday just because it is on the Calendar. So many people celebrate Christmas a day set aside to acknowledge Christ birthday, but even something as simple as saying, merry Christmas they take Christ out and replace him with an x we must do better .
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Catherine
@Patricia A Smith
Holidays glamorize and encourage unnecessary consumption. And we are 'given' a day off now and then because those who decide wages and work hours, know we work too much for too little for them, without time to do enough for ourselves.
Daily celebrations of personal achievements feel more important than a handful of meaningless commercialized holidays.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
I think the real problem here is not what individual societies did or didn’t do, but that is what ALL HUMANS do and will continue to do ad infinitum! Just look at all the current conflicts going on in the world today and see that humans are the root of all evils! Religion is is up there with all the other worldly evils!
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Lionheart
There may well have been a genocide committed by Junipero Serra, or some others in the name of religion, of which if there was it would have been typical of their god who was also a master of genocide by drowning most everyone on earth. Thank goodness we have no real evidence of that fictional event.
🦁♥️
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Catherine
Meant to add that relevance to the article and discussion of the previous two posts address the genocide and ignorance of real history most Americans are taught. Coincidentally Thanksgiving is this week.
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Catherine
https://theoatmeal.com/comics/columbus_day
Relative to attempted genocide of indigenous peoples in America, here Mark Inman's dark not-quite-humor presents a more realistic history of what Christopher Columbus really achieved. I recommend reading the entirety before deciding to share this information with children.
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Catherine
'Searching For Thanksgiving - The First Thanksgiving in America' at
[b] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qSgzTBrO2Y [/b]
shares research and investigation of the establishment of America's Thanksgiving holiday. Sources:
02:03 1879 AMERICAN CYCLOPAEDIA 15:36 1899 CENTURY DICTIONARY OF NAMES 19:40 1929 BRITANNICA - Thanksgiving 21:34 1620 - 1647 Of Plymouth PLANTATION Reprint 33:04 1929 BRITANNICA - John Winthrop 37:40 MORBUS LIBRO CENTESIMO POST MORTEM 38:51 1677 Indian Wars In New England by William Hubbard / Reprint 47:25 1878 A History Of The United States - William Bryant 51:40 1900 The History Of Our Country - Edward Ellis 56:14 1897 History Of The United States - John C. Ridpath 1:05:36 Indians Trading For Corn? 1:09:50 Conclusion 1:10:48 Dessert
Spoiler alert: The Thanksgiving holiday in America was established by a Dutch immigrant assbiter to celebrate a final massacre of remaining natives they had been attempting to route from that area. So, though conquests are generally nasty events no matter who wins, the point here is our Thanksgiving holiday celebrates the burning alive and clubbing heads of babies, children, women, and elderly in their homes because that's mostly who were left.
I asked a friend why they celebrate Thanksgiving, when they knew the real history. Ha. Thanksgiving was theirs first! And conveniently a day is provided to celebrate their harvest day. I like that.
I could not find a scholarly source for the symbolic meaning of a turkey, however this is most similar to what was explained to me:
https://www.spirit-animals.com/turkey-symbolism/
"Turkey Meaning and Messages
In this case, Turkey symbolism is a good omen. Thus it indicates that great gifts are on their way to you. However, you must also understand that this bird, like the Octopus, is always a symbol of sacrifice for renewal. In other words, this spirit animal reminds you that you have to let go of something for new things to arrive. Therefore the Turkey meaning tells you that generosity will open the doors to growth and rebirth.
Alternatively, Turkey symbolism also reminds you that nothing is an endless resource. Therefore, you must honor and nurture the abundant supplies on offer. Furthermore, you must be sure that you cultivate and care for those renewable resources that benefit your life. Regardless of your circumstances, now is the time to listen to your higher vision. After all, this is the best way to achieve your goals, whether they are spiritual, physical, mental, or emotional."
https://content.ucpress.edu/pages/10373/10373.ch05.pdf
A THANKSGIVING PRAYER FROM THE IROQUOIS (SENECA) PEOPLE
Gwa! Gwa! Now the time has come! Hear us, Lord of the Sky! We are here to speak the truth, For you do not hear lies. We are your children, Lord of the Sky. Now begins the Gayant gogwus. This sacred fire and sacred tobacco And through this smoke We offer our prayers. We are your children, Lord of the Sky. Now in the beginning of all things You provided that we inherit your creation. You said: I shall make the earth On which the people shall live. And they shall look to the earth as their mother. And they shall say, “It is she who supports us.” You said that we should always be thankful For our earth and for each other. So it is that we are gathered here. We are your children, Lord of the Sky. Now again the smoke rises And again we offer prayers You said that food should be placed beside us And it should be ours in exchange for our labor. You thought that ours should be a world Where green grass of many kinds should grow You said that some should be medicines And that one should be Ona’o The sacred food, our sister corn You gave to her two clinging sisters Beautiful Oa’geta, our sister beans And bountiful Nyo’sowane, our sister squash The three sacred sisters, they who sustain us. This is what you thought, Lord of the Sky. Thus did you think to provide for us And you ordered that when the warm season comes That we should see the return of life And remember you, and be thankful, And gather here by the sacred fire. So now again the smoke arises We the people offer our prayers We speak to you the rising smoke We are thankful, Lord of the Sky.
TRANSLATED BY CHUCK LARSEN (SENECA), FOR THE CENTER FOR WORLD INDIGENOUS STUDIES AND THE FOURTH WORLD DOCUMENTATION PROJECT, 2002
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Rev. MichaelRS
I posted this ij reply to a couple of comments on my OP, but here I'm posting it for everybody to see. My position on the subject is simply this....
If the link does not work please go to YouTube and search...
"Bill Maher presentism"
The correct video that comes up will be, "New rule - A unified theory of wokeness".
Some people really need to dismount from their high horse.
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Robert James Ruhnke
You and Bill Maher first.
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Michael Hunt
I'm glad to see the history of Native Americans being honored over the history of colonizers who brought genocide to the original inhabitants of our land. Honor the man who dedicated his life to keeping culture and traditions alive over the man who sought to see that culture eliminated.
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ServantOfJudgement
They're actually native to Asia, not the Americas unless you buy into the bible.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Who cares? The N A were here first regardless. Nothing excuses the greediness of later whites who wanted their lands for their own selfish reasons.
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Mark Gilgen
Comment removed by user.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Not the Bible. You're confusing it with the LDS Booknof Mormon and their claim that Native Americans were part of the two lost tribes of Jews.
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ServantOfJudgement
Don't know that Keith. Yet another long shot by the Mormons. Im referring to God giving the nations of the earth the lands they come from. With Israel he put it on paper, the rest of us had to sort it out the hard way and still are but we all have a place on earth.
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Erik Facundo
Comment removed by user.
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Colleen McAllister
Tear down or erect all the statues you want. You can't truly undo history. Our ancient ancestors were as vicious and hateful as any of us are today. It is human nature
Instead of trying to erase or rewrite history we need to learn from it. Father Serra did some horrible things. He also did some good things. Instead of emphasizing the bad-or the good - we need to show the balance. The bad often outweighs the good but that doesn't mean that the good wasn't there. We need to embrace our full history.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Colleen McAllister What exactly did Father Serra do that was good? If you know your California history you know Father Serra brought disease, slavery, tortured Native Americans, forced the Christian religion upon the Native Americans, stole land and food from the Native Americans.
How was any of this good? The Native Americans had been living here for 10,000 years.
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ServantOfJudgement
Actually Douglas it turns out the native Americans made quite the load catching their native neighbors and selling them as slaves untill the supply ran out anyway. They were so good at it because they had done that sor of things long before they met pale skins.
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Michael Hunt
And what does that have to do with the history of Father Serra? Does the fact that Native American tribes practiced slavery excuse the near genocide of their people brought on by colonizers? You just seem to want to minimize the atrocities perpetuated by colonizers while painting the indigenous population as violent savages.
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
"the supply ran out anyway?"
If that were so, how did Christopher Columbus and Bartolomé de las Casas and others manage to murder 100s of thousands?
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ServantOfJudgement
I don't think those two specifically were on the rampage though I know there were plenty. Cortez put the murderous Aztec down, thank God. They ate quite a few million souls during their evil reign, literally. I thought bartolome was a good guy but could be wrong.
The Creek nation pretty much picked their indigenous slaves to sell from Florida until they were too scarce to pay for the cost of capture. The Creek Nation's story is fascinating yet tragic one.
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
Before Bartolomé de las Casas did a 180, he was as murderous as Columbus.
Much of real history has been lost. Hard to say whether Cortez righteously murdered the Aztecs. Like other genocides, I'm going to suppose gold, greed, religious differences, and dehumanization were involved.
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Robert James Ruhnke
You don’t learn history from statues. You learn history from reading books. For example, natives have been here longer than 10’000 years. They’re finding older remains every day. Let all colonizer hero statues be torn down. They have no place here.
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ServantOfJudgement
Back east they found 5k old European bones. The natives aren't native, no human is native to the Americas. If the American Indian is native to North America, so am I.
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
That is SO not the point.
And if you look into history of indigenous peoples who lived along the Mississippi, or further back to the 'Folsom man' in New Mexico, you will understand why.
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ServantOfJudgement
Just saying Europe was here way way way before we thought, it's reasonable they were here even sooner.
How many thousands of years do you need to have been on a land to be considered native? I was born here, does that make me native to America? If someone told me to go home I'd go to Ohio, my native land.
EVERYONE is missing the grand point.
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Catherine
I think the grand point is genocide is never acceptable, no matter the era.
Indigenous Missippians were well established around 14,000 years ago. They remained in that area quite awhile.
Monk's Mound in Illinois is pre-Columbian.
And Wikipedia is generally loaded with misinformation about indigenous peoples. Unfortunately that spreads like a greek fire.
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Maximillian Martin
What a delusional liar!!!
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Christine
Servent-o-judgement if he was reacting to his own comments:
YoU mENtiOn "eUropeANS" aNd "aSIans" in YOur coMMEntS oN ThiS bLog. ThERE arE No suCh tHIngS. No hUmANs ArE nAtIVe tO EuroPE Or ASia, wE ARe aLL fROm AfrICa. If THosE foLKs ArE "eURopEan" or "AsiAn", sO Am I.
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Robert James Ruhnke
By back east, do you mean Actual Europe? Cause that’s where they found the remains. Or were you trying to use Kenniwick man from the west coast because he had red hair? There have been many remains that go back 10000+ years. Some with features allegedly akin to Eurasian trait. They already did an analysis on them. An they’re not European. A decade ago some white supremacists tried using that foolish idea and failed.
The truth is we are all of earth. It’s just Muslims, Christians, and even some Jews for the last 5000 years want to divide and brainwash us into their cults of worships.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/a-5000-year-old-human-bone-was-found-in-the-river-thames-180979777/
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Pastor Jim
Finally, someone who knows and recognizes history for what it is. I live in the Chihuahua Desert and what was once the Comancheria, where the Comanche systematically conquered and enslaved the Jumano throughout the 15 & 1600s. The Native Americans practiced slavery long before the Europeans introduced it here.
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Does that excuse the crimes of the white people? When everyone passes they review the life they just led to judge themselves. Any crimes or offenses they knowingly commited are put at their feet no matter the race they were or who they harmed or abused. Why not be expected to deal with their own crimes here too?
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Mark Gilgen
Why does it ALWAYS come down to theWHITE PEOPLE BAD people from all over did the same thing through-out the WORLDS history. The First registered slave owner in the USA was a black man. The slaves were captured soldiers from other tribes that would then be sold to "white man" so trying to change it will not work, start looking from with in.
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Michael Hunt
I'll just leave this here for you to take a read through so you can understand why your comment is deceptive. https://www.aaihs.org/the-curious-history-of-anthony-johnson-from-captive-african-to-right-wing-talking-point/
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Daniel Gray
No but it shows just how misguided and biased your claim is.
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Catherine
@Pastor Jim
There are massive definitional differences between conflict and genocide.
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William Waugh
I've read enough history to know that european settlers to america considered native americans to be an inferior form of human. They observed the lifestyles and knowledges of these peoples and concluded their society was barely above that of apes.
The settlers, armed with biblical and civilisation history at least as old as the romans and egyptions concluded that these peoples could not possibly extrude proper value from these lands and their superior vision essentially afforded them divine jurisprudence. Did they ever develope their own written language? Europe and the middle east have had written language for several millennia.
Go west young man, go west!
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Lori-Ann Neeb
Again, their arrogance is no excuse for their crimes. What the Europeans brought over was the church and vatican's thousands of years of abuses and tortured history of their own to manipulate and control any group that didn't or wouldn't tow the catholic line. If you are going to try to remember true history, then include all of it.
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Catherine
@William Waugh
"european settlers to america considered native americans to be an inferior form of human"
If you read more, you'll discover histories going back many centuries in which dehumanization is used to claim what another wants.
As for "could not possibly extrude proper value from these lands", that is highly debatable. Indigenous peoples in the Americas understood how to live with the land.
And this, "superior vision essentially afforded them divine jurisprudence" is also highly debatable. A genuinely superior vision would have peace, not division and manipulations centered on natural and material ownership.
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Rev. MichaelRS
So instead of giving the middle finger to millions of Christians in general and Catholics in particular they couldn't have made a King Solomon like decision and put up two statues, replacing the one that was vandalized by the leftist criminals AND giving the natives this one?
By the way, the story of the American Indians is a prime example of why you need both the WILL and the ABILITY to control your borders. If you lack either one your territory is likely to be overrun as ours is being now.
And speaking of romanticization, let's dispel the myth that all of the Americans Indians were simply peaceful nature spirit worshiping hunter-gatherers prior to the arrival of the evil Europeans.
Sure there were some like that, but no small number of them Award with each other just did just like the European tribes did. Only in Europe instead of "tribes" they called them countries. And the only reason the scale smaller than that of the European was simply due to the American Indians having smaller populations and less advanced weapons.
Or do you really think the Iroquois Confederation was created by the Iroquois sending out diplomats to lobby the various surrounding tribes politically convincing them to hold a referendum to join.
Well let me tell you that was not the case many of the tribes were conquered. How are they conquered? Through very brutal warfare with captured enemy tortured and killed for amusement and or enslaved.
And then moving out west a little later in time you have the Comanche and the Apache that absolutely hated each other and had no problem viciously killing each other.
Those are just two examples. So let's debuse ourselves of the notion that all violence and evil arrived in North America with the European.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Rev. MichaelRS Revisionist white history. Remember it was the Europeans who were the first illegal immigrants. It was the Europeans who stole food and land from the Native Americans. And it was the US Government that had a program to exterminate all of the Native Americans.
So Rev. MichaelRS Why aren’t you telling the full story?
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Rev. MichaelRS
You are trying to revise WORLD history. Which is full of people's (sometimes the same race sometimes different) conquering each other, enslavement and all around bad treatment. The white Europeans were no particular standouts in that regard.
But please explain to me what I said that was revigenous. What was factually incorrect?
I'm going to post a link below, sometimes they work sometimes they don't, but if you want to know my position on the subject if the link does not work, search on YouTube...
"Bill Maher presentism"
The correct video will be "A unified theory of wokeness."
The American Indians of the time were simply the victim of historical circumstance, being a backward people (the vast majority at of the development of the Neolithic period) and a scant population compared to the Europeans, then Americans, who would eventually be far more numerous and were more technologically advanced from the beginning.
That's why I have to laugh every time I see somebody starting a meeting or some or some other gathering with a "land acknowledgment".
If ever there was a Marxist protocol to help sow racial, class and societal discontent and division that's a prime example.
I mean what's the point, except to have white people feel guilty so they will vote to allow American Indians to have casinos.
Look the simple fact is that North America was conquered by another "tribe". The American tribe. And they did so using the methods of the time with the parallel consciousness. Not something that we would do today, but there you have it.
So basically, at this point, the only two choices are to accept the current reality while looking forward as full participating members of the new society or continue to look into a past that cannot be changed and moaning about it.
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Christine
Yeah, everybody conquered and treated other groups badly. But the euro folks managed to do it to lots of places all over the entire darn planet so that sure does make them super de duper mega standouts but that was a nice attempt to gloss over this crazy important fact. I bet typing that made you feel better for a day or so, which is nice. Everybody needs a lil something and hey, you made me laugh.
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William Robert Wall
You do yourself a disservice by limiting conquering to White Europeans. Islam extended it's reach all over the world by what, shrewd diplomacy?
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Catherine
@Rev. MichaelRS
https://www.neefusa.org/guide-indigenous-land-acknowledgment
"Acknowledgment of traditional land is a public statement of the name of the traditional Native inhabitants of a place."
This not a pointless practice, even legal purposes and public access rights set aside. Neither is it moaning about the past. It's about maintaining a hard fought for shred of sovereignty that NON-indigenous people cannot claim because we worhip and facilitate our abusers.
Would you do less given the same circumstances?
People who comment as you do make civility a chore. What does willful ignorance masquerading as fact accomplish?
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Rev. MichaelRS
I'm just saying it's usually not the conquered people that get to put up the monuments.
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Catherine
@Rev. MichaelRS
That much is true, though that is not the message conveyed above.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. MichaelRS Not sure where you learned American History but it’s sure been filtered and you are missing many key facts. Ever hear of “Go west young man”, “Manifest Destiny” or slavery?
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Rev. MichaelRS
@DRS - So what's your point? What key facts am I missing?
Yes people of European ancestry conquered what is now United States of America.
Americans took it from the Indians as well as Europeans. The country started we took it away from the British with the Spanish, French and Mexicans. Some we bought but most we conquered or forced the sale.
As for slavery in America that was not started by what is now America and before the Civil War they were taking steps to eliminate it. That, as you may recall, was a major cause of the Civil War.
Anyway I learned my history through personal interest as a school boy and adult and study at couple of community collegs, before finally getting my BA in America history from a Cal State University in Southern California. So I kind of have a rough idea what I'm talking about
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Russel A. Kester
Michael, when it comes to American history my hat is off to you. You know your stuff.
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Daniel Gray
So why are you not doing the same to the African history of this country and other where AFRICANS themselves sold their people into slavery and they are still doing it today! or is it that you intentionally have a hatred for White people and believe all the revisionist BS you were taught in school.
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Michael Hunt
What does African history have to do with the way indigenous people in North America were treated? You seem to be grasping for basic whataboutisms to try and downplay the actions of White colonizers which is surprising to hear coming from the Cherokee. You're trying to revise history by saying that the actions of our ancestors weren't really that bad compared to other people but just because other people were doing bad things doesn't excuse the European colonizers from the atrocities they committed.
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Daniel Gray
Because even the native Americans had slaves and mistreated people. So why bother to sugar coat it now?
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Daniel Gray For someone who claims to be a Native American, (if you are which is doubtful), you should know the difference between Native Americans who were FORCED into slavery and FORCED to be Christian. African-Americans were transported here and there was NEVER a Government sanctioned program to exterminate them. You do get the difference. In the eyes of the Europeans, African-Americans had value as slaves where as Native Americans we savages and had no value at all and needed to be eradicated.
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Daniel Gray
Do your history. Africans were sold by their own people into slavery. The historical records of the Viona Davis (the woman king) movie clearly show that her tribe were slavers. So actually there is no difference as Native Americans also owned slaves and forced them to convert to their religion and their language. And that is why I cant understand why they are complaining about this since they did the same thing.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Daniel Gray Again you don’t know your history. Native Americans and their land did not get sold into slavery, the land was stolen and the natives were forced. Europeans looked at Native Americans as a natural resource to be exploited and exterminated. They held NO value. African slaves had value which is why they were bought and sold.
Try learning about Manifest Destiny. God gave America to the Europeans to exploit and make as much money off of as possible. And it’s still going on today.
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Daniel Gray
I did and try learning about how Africans sold their own people into slavery and then get back with me
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
“ They argued that the priest, who was canonized in 2015 by Pope Francis, was actually a brutal abuser who forced Catholic conversion on the indigenous population.”
Did you not read the article or did you just kind of sweep this under the rug of your conscious thought? The Catholic church has set up its own little version of Whackamole with priests that sexually abuse kids, you think it’s above forced conversion? Do you wish for the return of the Spanish Inquisition?
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Christopher W Patmore
Amen. As a Native American I found it a bit hatefull.
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Daniel Gray
And as a Cherokee, I find the whole thing quite stupid.
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Marion Wolfe
*pretend Cherokee
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Daniel Gray
Sorry but no, while you may be a pretender I am listed on the rolls at the BIA. Can you say the same thing?
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Marion Wolfe
Sure you are, hon
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Daniel Gray
This coming from a person who claims Native American but has yet to say what nation or tribe they are from and how they can prove it.
So yea your opinion is about as useful as passing gas in a high wind.
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Marion Wolfe
Losing track of the lies you spread? Feel free to copy and paste the comment where I claimed to be Native American.
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Daniel Gray
And its just ONE persons opinion. Unless you have actual proof he did this then put up TWO statues by replacing the one that was torn down.
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Michael Hunt
It's actually the opinion of the Native American activists, not one person's opinion. Also George Tinker, an Osage/Cherokee and professor at Iliff School of Theology in Denver, Colorado, cites evidence that Serra required the converted Indians to labor to support the missions. Tinker writes that while Serra's intentions in evangelizing were honest and genuine, overwhelming evidence suggests that the "native peoples resisted the Spanish intrusion from the beginning" https://books.google.com/books?id=8uL6knHvq_kC
It sure looks like historians have proof to back up the opinions of the activists.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
Thanks, Michael. But I’ll wager won’t Gray won’t buy the book and read it. I was once interested in consequences of the Manifest Destiny malarky and read a couple of books on the atrocities perpetrated against Native Americans. It didn’t mention Serra but
And Greh… Is the idea of putting up two statues just one person’s (note the possessive form) idea or have you put together an entire movement?
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Daniel Gray
Why should I? its nothing more then one persons opinion who was not around and cant say for sure this happened.
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Michael Hunt
Daniel, when you go to the doctor, and they give you a diagnosis, do you tell them that it's just their opinion so why should you listen to them?
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Daniel Gray
How about you take your own advice as they told you to stay off the magic box in the day room and yet here you are.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
You really are funny at times. Back in 2000 Pope John Paul gave a Prayer of Forgiveness at some kind of 2000 year jubilee. He was apologizing for the sins committed by the church. He included an apology for the church’s use of non-evangelical methods, for example the Inquisition and Crusades (a couple of big ‘oopsies’). He also apologized for injustice towards women (this apology goes out toward more than half the human race). And very important here, he apologized for for ed conversion of indigenous peoples, especially in South America. So here we have the church admitting to, and apologizing for, forced conversion. Does THIS count as more than one random person’s opinion that some disgusting crap was going on with priests and indigenous people? Discusding anythingvwith you is like having a discussion with a stop sign.
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Daniel Gray
yea right and you do know the prayer of forgiveness he gave was to the Native peoples of SOUTH America? Or are you now going to call the Vatican Archives liars because it does not fit with your fantasy?
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Lori-Ann Neeb
People are people everywhere so there were good and bad native americans. That does not excuse the abuse and crimes commited later by white people who wanted their land and any other still free land for their selfish reasons. You also conveniently forget previous crimes of the catholic church and vatican against other European countries for centuries before that. If you want a statue, put one up in front of one of your churches somewhere else. Let the Native Americans have theirs to commemorate someone dedicated to remembering their culture and customs.
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Rev. MichaelRS
I'm going to post a link for you that tells my position on the subject. If the link does not work simply go to YouTube and search...
"Bill Maher presentism"
The correct video will be "A unified theory of weakness"
When it comes to being historical jerks I'm not sure I can think of a society that is free of any blame...
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Totally agree with you. No one should deny their history. You may disagree with me but I think the Confederate statues should never have been removed either. Those men were still soldiers fighting for. Gat they thought was a noble cause. Liberty and the right to decide when to abolish slavery . Also, the Conderate flag never was their flag. It was a battle flag pure and simple. No culture should deny any part of their history. It's about as bad as Germany denyingbtheir Nazi history znd Russia denying its communist history. Remember them all for their atrocious history.
In anyone's history there are skeletons in the closet. The Catholic Church would have never canonized Juniperro Serra had their been any real substantial proof he had had a dark history of mistreatment of the Indians.-
Russel A. Kester
Good opinions, Keith. Thank you for that perspective.
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ServantOfJudgement
Absolutely. Anywhere you find mankind you'll find greed, rape, murder, theft, slaves and anything else people don't like.
They sure knew how to make stone hammers for head softening way before Europe showed.
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Daniel Gray
Exactly. As I have said before I am Cherokee, and no matter if the people in here like it or not, even the Native Americans had slaves that they took in battle or stole from neighboring tribes/nations. So I find it very hypocritical for them to complain about what they think happened to them when their own ancestors did it to others.
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Maximillian Martin
Prove it. Name the specific FEDERALLY recognized tribal group you belong to. From what I've seen before, you can't. Until you do, with more than just words, you're nothing but a wannabe!!!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Rev. MichaelRS Not sure where you learned American History but it’s sure been filtered and you are missing many key facts. Ever hear of “Go west young man”, “Manifest Destiny” or slavery?
Stop believing in revisionist Christian history and learn the truth.
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Daniel Gray
And I bet that you just cant understand that Cherokee IS a recognized Native American Nation...And like it or not I am listed as part of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians (EBCI) in North Carolina
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Daniel Gray You keep changing the story of your life it’s hard to believe anything you say. Now you claim to be Cherokee. And before you claimed to be molested and rapped. Hard to know when you are lying, making things up and if know if you ever tell the truth,
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Daniel Gray
Have never changed my story the whole time I have been here so nice try with your myth. I AM a member of the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians (EBCI) in North Carolina. And I have NEVER said I was molested or anything like that as I never was. So why do you sink to such a level that you have to make up lies? Does it somehow make it more palatable to you to intentionally lie like this?
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I agree with the concept of Having a Native Hero, I disagree with the way the first statue was Removed, Laws were broken during the Removal. I think that aspect of it, taints the Victory. There was a lot of History lost to the Hundreds of statues Damaged or Destroyed during the Protests. Lawlessness should Never be Rewarded My Wife, Children and Grandchildren are of Cherokee decent so I do have an Opinion. Thanks for reading