An lgbt pride flag flying in front of a church
One theory suggests that evangelicals' rigid beliefs have effectively turned many LGBT people away from religion.

A new analysis of the Pew Research Center's 2014 Religious Landscape Study found that lesbian, gay, and bisexual Americans are less religious than their heterosexual counterparts.

A staggering 41% of LGB adults identified as atheist, agnostic or "nothing in particular," compared to just 22% of straight adults. The survey did not ask respondents to identify themselves along gender lines - hence the "T" being absent from these results.

When it came to religious service attendance - the study's standard measure of religious participation - about 19% of bisexuals and 16% of lesbian and gay Americans attended a house of worship regularly, compared with 36% of straight adults. LGB adults were much less likely to take the Bible as the word of God, with 38% of bisexuals and 33% of gays and lesbians saying this, eclipsed by the 61% of straight Americans who did. More prescient still, only about a third of LGB adults (34%) claimed religion was very important in their lives. More than half of straight Americans (54%) feel this way.

Pew Research LGB faith study

LGBT Acceptance Among Evangelicals

So why do LGBT people appear to be less pious than their heterosexual counterparts? The study doesn't make that clear, but one theory is that evangelical attitudes toward LGBT identities have effectively turned many LGBT people away from religion. Indeed, only a scant 36% of Evangelical Protestants believe homosexuality should even be accepted in society - let alone given equal rights. It's understandable that it would be hard to get excited about going to church knowing that over half of the country's largest religious denomination finds your identity unacceptable.

Unsurprisingly, another Pew survey found that many in the LGBT community are skeptical of religion in general. One-third of LGBT respondents noted a "conflict between their religious beliefs and their sexual orientation or gender identity." Another third even said that they've outright felt unwelcome in a house of worship.

Those same respondents also shared an overwhelming belief that religious groups are intentionally unfriendly to them. The institutions viewed most negatively in this regard? The Muslim faith, the Mormon Church, and the Catholic Church. The data shows that for those LGBT individuals who do believe in God, houses of worship are viewed less as places of sanctuary and more as torture chambers.

For those who do choose to attend, there are clear disincentives to expressing their true identities: religious leaders and political donors regularly demonize them, work to limit their social rights, and even call for their deaths.

In that sense, it's not terribly surprising that the LGBT community is shying away from religion. It's only natural that humans would prefer to congregate where they feel welcome. The question now becomes: will faith groups change their ways and become more accepting, or will they stick to their guns?

158 comments

  1. Rev Marti's Avatar Rev Marti

    In most organized religions the scriptures have been twisted to reflect inappropriate interpretations and vilified LGBT people. It has caused many to be verbally and physically assaulted because they are seen as inferior human beings. They have been driven out of God’s house by fear and intimidation, so ,of course they see no home or comfort in religious institutions. All who have done this will be held accountable by their Creator. Jesus would turn NONE away.

    1. BetteLee Henry's Avatar BetteLee Henry

      Amen! You said what I have been thinking for years. Thank you.

    2. Dr. Daniel R. Thomas. Ph.D. D.D's Avatar Dr. Daniel R. Thomas. Ph.D. D.D

      Jesus specified the conditions for rejection and they are "Lawlessness." You need to do your own studying on just what Jesus actually said.

      Matthew 7:21-23 NASBS "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. [22] Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' [23] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

      1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

        prohibitions against perverts are contained in the law.

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          I wonder what really constitutes to being “perverted”?

          I wonder how many “normal” (whatever that really means) heterosexual couples get involved in perverted behaviors.

          BDSM anyone? ?

          ?❤️

          1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            that's called fornication.

            1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

          2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Your references might be more applicable to the SM side of BDSM, but B (bondage) and D (discipline) might actually more in tune with your gods desires. ?

            ?❤️

          3. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Goodness Lion. Are you answering your own rhetoric with more rhetoric? You cheeky man!

      2. directortice's Avatar directortice

        So.... according to the law of the day.... being drunk was lawlessness and adultery was so lawless that it deserved the death penalty.... they were stoned to death.....

        No.... I don't buy your argument.... I didn't deserve Salvation but He offered it....

        John 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

        So how likely is it that I'm going to go through this day without sinning???? Am I lawless????

        Jesus said that to show that ALL of us need to Believe.... not just the ones that go to church or the ones who say the right things....He offered Salvation to EVERYONE....

        IMHO.... that quote about Lord Lord.... was about bigots who spew all the right verses but only watch the offering plate......

        My Lord offers Salvation to EVERYONE.... those who don't want it.... they are the ones who will be saying Lord Lord.... Jesus doesn't want anyone to be left out.... He just knows they will be.....

        What's that verse about the people who keep the Good News from certain people.... something about a millstone.... do you really think the millstone verse has no meaning?

        Matthew 18:6 "If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

        Just who do we think we are.... keeping people from church because they are sinning..... when you read that... do you hear how stupid it sounds..... keeping people away from Jesus because they are sinners....

        Shame on you.....

        1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

          If you think going to church is the objective of the New Testament then you've fallen for a religious lie about the Bible.

          1. directortice's Avatar directortice

            I myself believe that Jesus is the reason for the New Testament..... but there are a lot of people who won't allow people who are sinning to JOIN their churches.... or participate..... take the drunk for instance.... we've all heard the "good" people saying they don't want so-n-so in their church because they reek of demon alcohol..... we've all heard of the "good" people who will run someone away from church because they don't dress right.... I've been run out of churches because I show up alone.... a woman alone.... how dare I....

            So no... I don't think the New Testament is about the church.... I think spreading the good Word in the New Testament is the responsibility of the church.... And they are so perfect.... they won't let it out..... especially to a sinner..... pompous.... like the Pharisees.....

            Jesus couldn't have been the Messiah they said.... He was from Nazareth.....

            Church people seem to pick their sins....

          2. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            You are wrong about "So no… I don’t think the New Testament is about the church…. I think spreading the good Word in the New Testament is the responsibility of the church…". There is no directive in the New Testament for a "church" to take over "preaching the gospel". First....the word "gospel" doesn't mean "good word" or "good news". It describes that of a town criar running through the town yelling that the "king is coming" and if the townsfolk don't prepare the king will burn the town to the ground for their disrespect. Second...the apostles and Paul finished that work almost 2,000 years ago and finished it to completion. So, it wasn't "passed down" to a church. Third.....the gospel had to be preached by EYEwitnesses. Nobody today and no organization are eyewitnesses of Messiah and none have been "called" to preach nor have any been given the "breath of God's holiness" (holy ghost) to do so. So, your entire premise is based on false information. Those who pretend otherwise do so by attempting to usurp a dead work making them liars and they do so to gain monetary dividends from their followers making themselves not only liars but thieves.

          3. directortice's Avatar directortice

            I wasn't saying that... I think the church members run off people they (THEY) deem undesirable. That's what I'm saying. Flat out... There is always that holier than thou crowd... I know of one church that does not allow smokers... Not smoking... They don't allow people who smoke.

            So I think the church HAS been running off sinners of all kinds since the beginning...

            Not circumcised? Eat pork?

          4. Jai's Avatar Jai

            Hi Kimberly, I just want to say ..... Hi my friend...?

          5. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Jai....huggggggggg!!!!

          6. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Becky.....what's wrong with bacon???? Are you an Armstrongite?

      3. Dawn Pisturino's Avatar Dawn Pisturino

        Both the Old and New Testaments are clear on the prohibitions against LGBT behavior. LGBT have no right to change those prohibitions for their own convenience.

        1. Rev. John D. Partin's Avatar Rev. John D. Partin

          Dawn Pisturino, LGBT people definitely have the right and obligation to change entirely man-made "laws" and "teachings" which have only been passed off as "God's words" in order to "sanctify" and "justify" them and impose them on other people easier and control them, as were the verses against homosexuality in the Bible. It is certainly right for LGBT people to ignore and dispose of all such man-made verses in the Bible and focus, instead, only on love in the Bible and acceptance and love of other people as ourselves, since that is truly from God.

    3. BillK2's Avatar BillK2

      Well said.

      1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

        there is no ambiguity in the Bible concerning homosexuality.

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          And to mention another book of fictional stories, is there any ambiguity listed at Hogwarts? Just asking!

          I understand there are a lot of hidden meanings (parables for Kim) in Alice In Wonderland, not to mention the possible antics of the author Lewis Carroll.

          All three books are fascinating books, with the Bible book being a bit more scary. Possibly the very first horror book of its day. It's funny how people like to quote chapter and verse from that book and not more pleasant ones that children love.

          ?♥️

          1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Its nice of you to compare the Bible with books written by a single author. You are correct. It was written by a single author who is far more real than you are.

          2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            I’m actually more real than your god. In fact, I can actually prove I’m real, which your god is really struggling doing, which makes me more omnipotent than your god.

            Perhaps I am more worthy of being worshipped than your imaginary god.

            ?❤️

          3. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            You didn't exist even 100 years ago and you won't exist 100 years from now. You've made the exact same mistake so-called "religious" leaders make.

        2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          And neither did your imaginary god exist in your head 100 years ago because you weren’t born then. When you pass on, so will your imaginary god. It appears that all your deistic illusions, and everyone else’s, will just fade away in time.

          ?❤️

          1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Will Truth fade away? Will Reality fade away? Of course not. We know that intuitively. Same for God who exists in a far more permanent Reality that we do.

          2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            The truth and reality that there is no god, will never fade away Kim, but your illusion will.

            ?♥️

          3. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Ah...then you do somehow and without any reasoning acknowledge the existence of Truth and Reality that is beyond your ability to prove or comprehend. And therein lies your conundrum darling.

          4. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Of course, I’ve recognized truth and reality ever since I realized there is no god.

            One day, you will recognize that truth too, when the veil of your illusions, and misguided thoughts, are lifted.

            Until then my friend, keep breathing.

            ?❤️

          5. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            no dear Lion...….you've tried to define truth and reality.

          6. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            I see your illusions are still preventing you from knowing what truth is. Try not to fight it Kim. The truth will set you free. I can assure you that it’s a wonderful feeling.

            ?❤️

          7. directortice's Avatar directortice

            I just started a Bible study on Ecclesiastes. Solomon wrote it.... it's about life without God. Wise king Solomon.... David's son.... had 700 wives and 300 concubines and only a handful of kids.... Solomon was the second son of Bathsheba... the first one "died" after David seduced/raped Bathsheba and had her husband killed to cover up the "affair"..... Solomon wasn't such a perfect guy and kin the book of Ecclesiastes he apparently is toying with the idea of "there is no God".

            https://forums.somd.com/forums/religion.30/

          8. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            I don't live by feelings Lion. I live by logic. You should try it.

          9. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Solomon wasn't saying there is no god...he was saying that man is not God.

          10. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Clearly, you don’t live by logic Kim or you would be able to back up your claims that your god is real. Even your god can’t do that. He doesn’t have the capacity, or ability to show he exists, and the reason is.........he doesn’t exist......and I think deep down....you know it Kim.

            Try truth and reason, mixed with logic. You’ll be far better off. It will lead to a greater understanding for you. ?❤️

          11. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            I've given you ample evidence that existence is the logical choice rather than non-existence without proof Lion. It doesn't appear you can comprehend that.

          12. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            On the contrary, no one can prove none existence, and you know that. As I’ve told you before, no one can prove the existence of nothing, nothing is nothing.

            it’s for you and your mythical God to try and prove its existence which of course you cannot do, and it appears it is you that lacks comprehension. You have shown no evidence whatsoever to convince anyone apart from yourself. That clearly is schizophrenia.

            ?❤️

          13. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Again...You're trying to disprove existence in spite of evidence to the contrary. The universally intuitive acknowledgement of God's existence is the only logical choice. Just as the same acknowledgement applies to Truth, Reality and infinity. Can you prove infinity has no beginning and no end? Of course not. Even though the concept is applied not only in mathematical set theory but in logic. Be careful dearest....unbelief equates to purposeful ignorance.

          14. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Again, your inability to see clearly gets you caught up in the God Of The Gaps theory. You have a false assumption that because of any universal unknowns you assume a god is the only logical choice as an explanation. Of course it isn't, any more than Fairies are the only logical choice surrounding all the unknowns. People used to exist, and possibly still do, that have thought like yourself when contemplating the heavens revolving around the earth. They too arrived at illogical thoughts that they presumed to be logical.

            Be careful dearie, illogic thoughts are the reasons behind illogical choices. hence the reason we have so many religions, and weirdos roaming this earth. Without real facts backed up and supported by peer reviews can get you to fall into the traps you appear to be falling into. Try and look beyond the end of your...... old book.

            Ignorance can indeed be bliss, and can be very hard to let go of, but is often short lived when confronted with intelligence and intellectual undrstanding, as I'm sure you are finding out. Your next response will obviously demonstrate this, if indeed you do respond. If you don't respond there is indeed hope for you.

            ?♥️

  1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

    No. People are accountable for what they do or don't do. Not others. There's far too much blame going around these days.

    1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      Exactly. Thank you.

    2. Dr Griffith's Avatar Dr Griffith

      Yes, people are accountable for what they do or don’t do. That is exactly what Rev Smith states that most organized religions have twisted the scriptures so they can vilify LGBT+ people and they will be held accountable to their creator. Thank you for agreeing with him.

      1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

        the Bible is quite unambiguous about denouncing homosexuality. On that there is no twisting of the passages.

        1. Linda's Avatar Linda

          Kimberly, that is untrue. The NT overrides the OT, and there is nothing in the NT that is against gay people. Nothing.

          1. Dr. Daniel R. Thomas. Ph.D. D.D's Avatar Dr. Daniel R. Thomas. Ph.D. D.D

            "Men who practice homosexuality." The Greek words malakos and arsenokoitēs refer specifically to male homosexuals (see esv footnote), but in Rom. 1:26–27 Paul also refers to female homosexuals, and to homosexual desires or “passions.” Both passages (as well as Lev. 18:22; 20:13; and 1 Tim. 1:10) refer to homosexuality in general.

            Do your own studying, your very soul depends upon It!

          2. Dr. Daniel R. Thomas. Ph.D. D.D's Avatar Dr. Daniel R. Thomas. Ph.D. D.D

            "Men who practice homosexuality." The Greek words malakos and arsenokoitēs refer specifically to male homosexuals (see esv footnote), but in Rom. 1:26–27 Paul also refers to female homosexuals, and to homosexual desires or “passions.” Both passages (as well as Lev. 18:22; 20:13; and 1 Tim. 1:10) refer to homosexuality in general.

      2. Linda's Avatar Linda

        Plus, Dr. Griffith, the churches around here are closing left and right. People are tired of the pious right looking at the spec in everyone else's eye and ignoring the log in their own. But alas, if we judge them, we are no better than they are... so God bless 'em.

        1. Rev. John D. Partin's Avatar Rev. John D. Partin

          Dr. Daniel R. Thomas, it doesn't matter what homophobes wrote in the Bible anymore than it matters what they are saying in the world today because neither of them speaks for God or thinks as God does about homosexuality. God is love and is about love and acceptance of all people, unlike these ungodly homophobes who are about discrimination and hate toward gay people because of their sexual preference!! They aren't following the way and truth of God!!!

      3. directortice's Avatar directortice

        I find it odd.... interesting.... worthy of further study.... when reading the Bible.... I find that Ham's Curse and the rainbow come from the same general space in time.... It all goes back to Noah..... Remember, Noah's cousin, Lot, was living there in Sodom before that event.... did Ham visit his dad's cousin Lot in Sodom??? Did Ham get a peek at something he shouldn't have seen.... did it affect him like porn???? How innocent is everyone now???? What exactly was Ham's curse???? I think it's an interesting conversation...... I'm not gay.... I do know that the church has been preaching some pretty hefty services on the matter.... and it has caused significant trouble for those who are seeking Christ.

        https://forums.somd.com/threads/psalm-105-hams-curse.343362/

    3. JAI (@JAI35552692)'s Avatar JAI (@JAI35552692)

      Aww! Kim, thanks for the big huggggg and a big huggggg to you!!! Wow! for GOD so LOVE PEOPLE and wouldn't you just like to give the LORD ABOVE a huggggg for if it's done to the least upon the earth is the same as doing to the LORD ABOVE and PEACE EVERYONE!!!!!!!! Bye!!!

    4. directortice's Avatar directortice

      And that's why I CAN love bacon Kimberly Pierre...... Back In Leviticus 11 God gave the people rules about eating meat.

      Leviticus 11:6 “Some animals chew the cud, but they don’t have split hooves. Don’t eat these animals. Camels, rock badgers, and rabbits are like that, so they are unclean for you. 7 Other animals have hooves that are split into two parts, but they don’t chew the cud. Don’t eat these animals. Pigs are like that, so they are unclean for you. 8 Don’t eat the meat from these animals. Don’t EVEN TOUCH their dead bodies! They are unclean for you.

      DEUTERONOMY 14:3 Do not eat any detestable thing. 4 These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep.[a] 6 You may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud. 7 However, of those that chew the cud or that have a divided hoof you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the hyrax. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a divided hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. 8 The pig is also unclean; although it has a divided hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are NOT to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.

      So.... when the churches started up in the New Testament.... everyone was invited to attend..... but big fights broke out over the eating pigs issue.... see Gentiles could eat pig.... they could have all the bacon they wanted.... but the Jews couldn't.... it was "against the law". The discussion made it all the way to Paul and he discussed it with the Corinthians.

      1 Corinthians 8:9 Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if someone with a weak conscience sees you, with all your knowledge, eating in an idol’s temple, won’t that person be emboldened to eat what is sacrificed to idols? 11 So this weak brother or sister, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12 When you sin against them in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.

      So.... IMHO..... barring those who are LGBT or Q from church..... will cause YOU to sin against Christ.

      :coffee:

  1. Howard's Avatar Howard

    Did anyone take time to see what the Bible says on this issue?

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Who cares what a book says that was written by uneducated idiots that believed they were receiving direct word from a deity? If people want to believe that then they have to deal with their belief structure. For those that don’t, get on with life as best you can, just like those that have different beliefs. The end result will be the same.

      ?❤️

      1. Howard's Avatar Howard

        If you won't go away, please be courteous to those of us that do follow the truth. I don't criticize you for your unbelief, please don't criticize my belief.

        1. Rev. John D. Partin's Avatar Rev. John D. Partin

          Howard Pippin, the "truth", according to you and other like-"minded" people, and the actual truth are two entirely different things! "Christians" aren't courteous or uncritical towards other people and their beliefs, usually or non-superficially, and so why do you deserve courtesy or no criticism in return?

      2. directortice's Avatar directortice

        https://forums.somd.com/threads/psalm-105-hams-curse.343362/

    2. Bill Fox's Avatar Bill Fox

      Deuteronomy 30:19 19This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live Deuteronomy 30:15 15See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    Respectfully...anything that reduces the population of organized religions is essentially positive...just know God, and live a loving, compassionate forgiving life...Peace...Tom B

    1. Mrs Pierce's Avatar Mrs Pierce

      It’s the militant homosexuals that are causing the problems. Heterosexuals don’t use the government to sue homosexuals to FORCE them to accept a different lifestyle than their own. Homosexuals do. We don’t DEMAND, through unceasing social propaganda and government laws, that they “accept’ us. They do demand it of us. We don’t DEMAND that their children be indoctrinated into a lifestyle that’s against their beliefs. Homosexuals do. I don’t care if a person chooses to be a homosexual, by all means, enjoy. I’m just sick to death of being badgered and browbeat at EVERY turn to “accept” them. Be happy, but for pity’s sake, leave me alone!

      1. Dr Griffith's Avatar Dr Griffith

        Everything you state that "homosexuals" do is what Christians do, try to force their beliefs down others throats." Live your life how you want and be happy, but for pity's sake, leave me alone!

      2. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

        Goodness.....you said that better than me!

      3. The Rev. Brother Robert Barker's Avatar The Rev. Brother Robert Barker

        Mrs Pierce: I beg to differ. Heterosexuals have used government for millennia to try and force homosexuals to conform to heterosexual practices through "unceasing propaganda and government laws. Heterosexuals used school classes to indoctrinate homosexuals into their belief system. GLBT people were fired from their jobs for being suspected of being gay. Were heterosexuals fired for being of their sexual orientation. People do not choose to be homosexual just as heterosexuals did not choose to be heterosexual. Homosexuality and heterosexuality are sexual orientations NOT choices. One is born as one or the other. When did you decide to be heterosexual as you purport to be? Why would choose to be a homosexual when one knew to do so would be to be persecuted and ostracized by family, peers, and classmates or possibly prosecuted or even murdered by society? Use your head, Mrs. Piece for more than a hat rack. You, Mrs. Pierce need to be educated as what it was and still is be a gay, lesbian, or transgender person in a homophobic, bigoted, prejudiced society. You have no idea since you have lived your sheltered heterosexual life. "We have information that you are a homosexual. What do you have to say in your defense?" That's the question investigators asked countless U.S. government workers in a forty-year campaign to remove gay men and lesbians from the federal workforce. Careers were destroyed and lives were ruined. (From PBS promotion of the program The Lavender Scare broadcast on PBS on 18 June 19.) See it here: https://www.thelavenderscare.com/?fbclid=IwAR21BTMOM5UEjEEO_1DbST7ltaCd1_4vg71rBld1MTFjEh2ObD_cgF7IbnY

      4. Philip Arrington's Avatar Philip Arrington

        That's funny I'm homosexual and I feel the same way about straight people badgering me and bullying me I just want to be left alone as well

        1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

          No you don't. You want people to tell you how wonderful you are. big difference.

          1. Carrie's Avatar Carrie

            Kim, you seem to be a small minded hate monger. There now, how does that make you feel? Telling others what to think and feel is a sin by any standard. You must not know the mind of your God. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

          2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Girls, girls, stop it. Just try and be civil with each other. Let’s all have a hug ? and sit down, and have a drink of tea. I’ll bring some cake.

            Your Jesus friend wants you to be happy and loving.

            ?❤️

          3. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Carrie dear...shelve your telekinetic claws please. I attacked no one.
            Lion...what kind of cake????

          4. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            I bet you’ve never had a Simnel cake, or a Battenberg cake. I’m very partial to marzipan.

            ?❤️

          5. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Lion....that'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo!

            Buffybot

          6. Rev. John D. Partin's Avatar Rev. John D. Partin

            Kimberly, you "think" that gay people "just want to be told how wonderful they are" because, in your sick view, their wanting to be accepted as they are and left alone by homophobes is "the same as their wanting to be told how wonderful they are". By that criterion, you must also want to be told by everyone how "wonderful" you are if you want to be accepted or left alone by other people.

          7. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            John....There are no "homophobic people". Fear of gays is non-existent. A phobia against gays is a contrived accusation. It is homos and other freaks who fear their perversions will come into light and be seen for what they are. The most horrific sex practices imaginable. So bad in fact that there are diseases unique to these practices. Things that are never spoken of and therein lies the fear.

      5. Linda's Avatar Linda

        Mrs. Pierce, gay people are just asking for equal rights, tolerance, and the right to pursue happiness. They aren't hurting anyone and want equal rights... that's all.

        1. Carrie's Avatar Carrie

          No claws,. just an example of what I seem to see going on. The attacks here are getting more and more bitter. Christians are not the only ones who read and comment. We are supposed to be exchanging ideas, not condemning one another. Sorry Lionheart, I'm diabetic and can't eat cake but I do love a good cup of tea.

          1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Carry...you are so sweet! A bit naive but sweet. The movie doesn't do you justice. Lion...you should be ashamed of yourself trying to force sugar on a diabetic.

          2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            My apologies Carrie, I was just trying to sweeten the pot by bringing cake ?

            That’s tea for you two, and a tradition British pint of cask real ale for me.

            Just imagine the fun conversation we would have.

            ?❤️

          3. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            yes indeed. when we get together, I'll bring the MAGA hats. The red matches my purple hair, extra-large mumu dress and flip flops. Naturally, we'll need to carry our concealed carry pistols. Just a nip o the hard stuff in my tea if you don't mind Lion dear. Carrie, no fires please. Then, we can have a real conversation. The coffee/tea kiosks here in Seattle have topless Tuesdays so a Tuesday would be good.

  1. Mark Hannon's Avatar Mark Hannon

    I've had so much negative attention from evangelicals that I don't believe in conforming to any organized, Christian religion. I am a born again that was fortunate to have many good Bible teachers and have spent years reading and studying the Bible. I just don't consider it the inerrant Word of God. That being said I am still the organist for the local ELCA church in my township. I have not joined. It's been the third church for me in the last 20 years. I did have 19 great years at an Independent Baptist church in a city before these last. And I wished I had a brochure to hand out to every evangelical that thought they were the first to ever bring up every Bible verse that condemns homosexuality. Honestly, come up with something new.

    1. REV. JOnathan Lee Mead's Avatar REV. JOnathan Lee Mead

      As a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ We stand on His word. Jesus said, Heaven and Hell shall pass away but my word will stand forever. I believe that Gods word does teach us to love one another, be forgiven one to another. It also teaches that God hates sin, no matter what sin it may be. He provided a way for our sins to be forgiven through His Only Begotten Son JESUS CHRIST.

      1. Mark Hannon's Avatar Mark Hannon

        I see your point and I once had a similar faith. For your sake I hope you can always hold this as true for you because it is a happy way of life.

  1. Carrie's Avatar Carrie

    It is only in the most recent "translations" that the condemnation appears. Many of the parts that are quoted now are twisted and skewed toward intolerance and hatred. A prime example I have found over and over is about the Sodomites. They were never condemned for sexual perversion! According to the original Ezekiel-16:49..."Sodom's sins were pride, gluttony, and laziness while the poor and needy suffered outside her door." It sounds like the sin of the evangelicals, closing their hearts, minds, and love from those who wander, lost and alone. I left many years ago because I never found a place where women were more than chattle. I have been involved in my faith for nearly 50 years. All inclusive and all who wish to follow, do.

    Brightest Blessings.

  1. Jeff McClain's Avatar Jeff McClain

    Is one sin greater than another, I think not in the eyes of God. Jesus walked among men for 30 years, he loved and taught us all. I wonder how many men or women Jesus touched with his blessing that were Gay during his reign as a man? I would say since there have been Gay and Lesbian spoken of in the Old Testament that he walked and taught among a few. So let's find the 2 scriptures that explain how Jesus felt about, 1. Whosoever, believeth in me shall have everlasting life. 2. Let he without sin cast the first stone. Or maybe it is in the ten commandments Huh! Wake up people, we are not to judge anyone for anything for God warns of this, we are to open our hearts and love each other, love has nothing to do with sexual orientation, or sex at all for that matter.

  1. Hank Stanco's Avatar Hank Stanco

    Of course the LGBTQA community is less accepting of the existence of a God. Deny the existence of God and the deny the existence of sin, it’s not rocket science.

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      But then again, it doesn’t matter who doesn’t accept the existence of any god, or deny the existence of any god, and deny the existence of sin, because no god appears to be able to prove its existence. That shouldn’t be a problem for any god....right?

      Message to god: Just show up god and prove to us you exist, It’s not rocket science.

      Come on god, wave your magic wand and show up!

      We’re till waiting god!

      Yawn!

      Oh well, surprise surprise, a no show. It’s what we expected anyway.

      ?❤️

      1. Linda Capps's Avatar Linda Capps

        If you love God only because he proves Himself to you, then what you have is not faith. Faith is believing when everyone around you says it ain't so, its seeing the divine and the proof in a world that shouldn't even be here. It's hearing about the big bang theory but they can explain WHY there are so many trees and plants that provide for our daily sustenance & animals by the millions that are so radically different from each other, but the human race (besides language & skin color, sexual orientation etc.) are all the same inside.

        It is the proof in a billion different examples that shows you God, that shows you God made a place for US & His creation. That gave us the opportunity to join with Him in caring for it AND each other.

        Yes bad things happen, BUT really great things happen too, and it is through HIS gift of "Free Will" that we are able to choose how we live our lives, how we treat others, what we do with our lives, how we care for HIS creation.

        Take an anatomy physiology course, when you learn of the building of a body (not just humans) you will see the hand of God, lovingly crafting/knitting us into existence. That the cells that are making our bodies that this cell knows to be a kidney & that cell knows to be an eye & that other cell know to become hair or fingernails the list goes on & on.

        The fury of a volcano & the beauty of a rainbow are all God calling out to us to say I AM HERE!!! I LOVE YOU!!! Go out into the world, make beauty, give love, cry with those who cry & laugh with those who laugh...give of yourselves & when you do, you become MORE not less.

        THAT is the God I serve & believe in & LOVE. And HE LOVES EACH & EVERY ONE OF US, BLACK, WHITE, BROWN, MIXED, MAN, WOMAN, LGBTQ, ASEXUAL, CHILD, ADULT, THE ELDERLY.

        I know if is easier to scoff, to humpf, to refuse to see, but it is a lonely, cold & bitter way to live. (believe me I did for 25+ years until one day my eyes were opened, my heart was warmed & joy flooded my soul.

        I pray the same for you.

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          As Mark Twain said: “Faith is believing what you know ain’t so”

          My request for your god to prove himself by showing up, which shouldn’t be too difficult...right, has obviously fallen on deaf ears. We all know why don’t we? You’ve been conned BIG TIME. He doesn’t exist!

          Oh...hang on...I think I hear something. Could this finally be him? . . . Nope, it was the postman. Oh well, at least I know the postman is real. He shows up most every day. All hail to the postman. He lives! He lives!

          ?❤️

      2. Linda's Avatar Linda

        Lionheart, there is actually some compelling theories in quantum mechanics for the proof of "God" Some scientists were atheist and through their research have change their beliefs toward a divine source. One of them uses the double slit experiment, where we've discovered there is a wave of possibilities that collapses on one event. This collapse on one event is caused by the observer. But we were formed by evolution, a collapsing of possibilities to eventually form us... and who was the original observer then? An underlying consciousness that many scientist are calling the divine source. There are other models suggesting a divine source too. Check out Dr. Amit Goswami, Greg Braden, and Dr. Bruce Lipton... only a few of them.

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          Theories indeed.

          It would just be a lot easier if your god, or any god, just showed up to put all out minds at ease. This would stop a lot of hatred, and change all religions to just one. But I guess both you and I know that’s not going to happen....right? And the obvious reason is......he/she/it doesn’t exist.

          Oh well! Surprise surprise! There’s nothing new there.

          ?❤️

          1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Lion dear...…….aren't you aware of the Higg's boson? Research the controversial field of force characteristic of the Higg's boson. It is a force of will. And that will originates from God. If God were to remove his will from the creation, it would instantly dissipate like smoke from an extinguished candle. The more science learns about the fundamental principles of matter, the more evidence there is that matter cannot exist without an outside influence.

          2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Yes I am aware of Higgs bosun, but isn’t it weird that mankind is now having to use “theories” such as Higgs bosun, and Quantum science in a vain attempt to prove the existence of a god.

            If people were having to use such science to prove I existed, and were fighting over me, I would save them all that ridiculous effort and just show up. Job done!

            ?❤️

          3. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Lion honey....I'm not trying to prove God exists. That isn't possible by extrapolation of the physical Cosmos. I'm just saying that the more science discovers, the less your belief in non-existence becomes scientific.

          4. Linda's Avatar Linda

            Lionheart, do things exist that are not concrete? Some things exist only by evidence, then giving it a name and definition. Love exists but it can't walk in a room. Energy exists but it can't be seen. Consciousness exists, but no one can find its source... or explain it other than "awareness."

            Some claim these are aspects of God. Just because we can't make any of them walk into a room doesn't mean they don't exist. Some scientists suggest there is a "benevolent underlying consciousness with force."

            Is "God" emerging through us? Carl Sagan suggests we are all part of the universe trying to know itself. He was a scientist.

        2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          There are indeed things that exist that we currently have no understanding of. That has always been the way until science resolves the unknown. Unknowns don’t point to god, or fairies.

          Carl Sagan was indeed a scientist and was a recognized agnostic, but it’s my understanding he hated labels.

          ?❤️

        3. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

          First off the so called god particle is just as wrong a label ever put on something. All that has done is give us a slightly better glimpse into the nature of what we call reality and prove the Unified Particle field was more then just a theory.

          Quantum physics does suggest however that light acting as a partcile is caused by being observed, the how and why of that is certainly up for debate, and sure if someone wants to put a new idea of god there go for it,but that is a a new form of faith with a new god and has no place for an archaic belief system from thousands of years ago.

          Everyone of those doctors you mention is considered a laughing stock and pariah in the greater scientific community, they are part of the christian apologetics camp and are unworthy of one second of thought or a moment of respect.

          Let me guess you are a supporter of the so called Discovery Institute as well.

          How about the Steve list? A list of thousands of respected scientists with the first name steve who all are on record saying there is zero reason to think for one moment that our universe was created by some divine being.

          Everytime one of you christain whakos tries to pull a few pseudo scientists who have lost their mind and drunk the cool aid it takes about a second to find a massive majority of the best in the field ready to denounce them.

      3. Jai's Avatar Jai

        Lionheart,message to god: Is this how you would address your message to GOD THE CREATOR

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          Like I’ve said before, if a creator really existed I’d punch him on the nose for all his brutality. Then I’d sit him down and tell him where he went wrong.

          ?❤️

          1. Jai's Avatar Jai

            Really! Ungrateful disrespectful human beings living their life in every ugly wrong way and unnatural and brutality to others until the whole human race devours itself and become extinct but maybe just maybe the CREATOR will find upon the earth that little young boy & girl that hasn't been corrupted and start anew.

          2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Yes, that’s a good idea, like a little Adam & Eve. Having said that, I think you’ll find that not everyone on earth are living their life in brutality. Some of us are very nice people. ?

            ?❤️

          3. Carrie's Avatar Carrie

            I refuse to judge others on the way they live, think and feel. I also refuse to respect anyone who sinks to name calling. If the Christians believe in the rapture, I say sooner the better! Please keep in mind, though, that there are those of us who think life here ain't so bad. Try not to destroy us as you make way for the devil you don't know. Simple question...what if it is all backward? You might just be following the wrong deity...just sayin'! This isn't pointed at you Lionheart, I still would like a cup of tea. I, for one, am not ungrateful, disrespectful or even human, for that matter. I am not Christian, don't believe in brutality, (I think the way they are treating the children in the concentration camps is disrespectful brutality at its finest). A friend of mine once opined that this planet is the insane asylum of the galaxy. The reason we see ufos is because they are here to drop off another crazy, pick up someone they deem as cured, or to observe how insanity tends to breed more. He deserves a punch in the snot locker!

          4. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Grace is a delay in judgement.....Not a pardon. Best keep that in mind.

            Luke 12:45

          5. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            That’s an interesting thought Carrie. I guess I’m not fully cured yet as no UFO has come to collect me. Oh well, I guess I’m still going to be stuck down here with the religious crazies.

            Tea is coming up. ☕️

            ?❤️

          6. Carrie's Avatar Carrie

            My mom always told me that Grace was a dirty old lady........lol....

      4. directortice's Avatar directortice

        Aren't you quite the uppity stupid human.... lol..... So if you are right and there is no god.... it's no skin off your nose.... but if you are wrong... and you call in a God that created the Universes right down to the skin cell on your nose.... then you're bringing judgement on the rest of us... and that's not something I'm ready for.

        Fifty years ago this weekend.... I came home from work early and caught my husband in bed with another man..... I didn't have a clue....

        The Bible has something called the Jubilee Year.... that's when all debts are forgiven..... if someone had a mortgage on your land.... they had to give the land back to you during the Jubilee Year.....

        Since this is my Jubilee Year..... I get to tell my story.... YES the church has caused significant problems over this..... gay, straight or confused.... we are all stupid humans, created by God.

        Yes... Ham's curse is not particularly clear..... Yes... there is a lot of talk about homosexuality in five books passed down through Moses.... because the idea was to procreate.... and now.... what have you got to say about abortion???? Isn't that as dangerous to stupid humankind procreation as homosexuality????

        I know a lot about this issue.... more than I ever wanted to..... My granddaughter was not raised in an "environment" that would support or reject homosexuality..... but she is gay.... it's not a disease.... as the church would have us believe..... it's not something chosen.... as the church would have us believe..... it's part of her....

        Jesus sat down with drunks and harlots..... Back in the day... I doubt many homosexuals "came out".... Jesus probably had dinner with a few....

        When Jesus was on the Cross..... did anyone hear Him say.... "Father forgive them.... all except the gays, lesbians and confused?" No.... Jesus got up on the Cross for ALL of us.... Churches have done so much harm....

        The church should only, IMHO, be interested in one thing.... Bringing the Good News to stupid humans everywhere.... Jesus has been here.... He conquered death..... He wants to forgive you for ALL.... it doesn't matter if your buddy next door thinks you should be executed for the color of the mole on your face or the kind of car you drive..... what matters is... Jesus, the Son of God, sacrificed Himself for EVERYONE....

        Jesus was tempted too.... He knows what it's like to be hated. He wants to be the Messiah for Everyone!

        The church should be ashamed....

        1. Jai's Avatar Jai

          Directortice, I see you are a person human being with good wisdom understanding hey the CREATOR at will can and does give audience with someone and may or not have the sense to know it and some would act hostile toward and get passed by that chance which very important people long to get even clergy so greetings to you. I would like to share a story with you about five years ago a woman left her husband not for another man but for another woman and it so much messed with this man's emotions that he stepped out in front of a fast moving train which devastated this man's family and the man's wife seemed to could care less of this tragedy as she does her thing with another woman as so many young girls alike and women are doing and could care less what anyone thinks and bold about it. So yeah! Calling the CREATOR out in a hostile way is pretty bold.... or stupid...humans like you say but thanks to you MERCY is still given to all who seek it from the CREATOR who is long suffering with his children of disobedience upon the earth but the day will come when the earth will burn as it is written.

          1. directortice's Avatar directortice

            I am sorry this happened to that man..... it's a shock..... It's not his fault.... I hope he forgives himself for whatever he thinks he might have done to bring this on.....

            Fifty years ago..... Man popped through the atmosphere and plopped on the moon..... what does that teach us about the tower of Babel?

            Things have certainly changed since Noah and Ham had their conversation. Things have definitely changed since Noah's excursion on the arc.

            I find it interesting....

            God controls time and space.... so God knows how it all works out.... God knew that Ham would get cursed by Noah before the restart on earth could even get going.....

            God wiped all humanity except Noah and his immediate family.

            God could have certainly wiped out Ham as well... to wipe out Ham... all God had to do was make him miss the boat! Simple.... And it is, after all, according to the evangelicals, the curse of Ham we are talking about here.....

            God chose to save Ham..... why?

            Was it so we could have this conversation?

            Was it so that we could encourage EVERYONE.... even the ones we shun... to come to Christ?

            I believed porn was the cause for a long time... and now I know that porn was only a symptom.

            Please... don't get me started on abortion....

            Becky

            Check out https://forums.somd.com/forums/religion.30/

    2. Tom F's Avatar Tom F

      Spot on Brother. Thank You.

      1. Rev. John D. Partin's Avatar Rev. John D. Partin

        Linda, I recently made the argument to John Owens here that just because a scientific or genetic cause couldn't be found for homosexuality, that doesn't mean that some people couldn't be born as homosexuals for a spiritual and transcendent reason (due to reincarnation, perhaps), and, the same as you, that everything that is real isn't able to be put under a microscope and scientifically verified. So, I'm with you that far, but why does even this basic force in the universe that people call "God" need "virgin birth, resurrection, ascension, transubstantiation, sacrificial death on the cross for the sins of the world", and all of the other things that people have pinned on to this idea and weighed it down with? Even atheists might be able to believe in "God" as just love, as the New Testament says that he is, if they can believe in love, but they can't go along with all of the rest of it. Why should they? As George Carlin said (before he turned totally atheistic): "People have taken the idea of God and run off the GD end of the Earth with it!". Please explain to me, if you can, why these other things are necessary for pinning on to "God".

        1. Linda's Avatar Linda

          Hi John! Debating with John Owens... I've found him to have substantial insights into the Bible. I've learned from him, many times from the opposing side.

          Why does it matter that no one finds a cause for homosexuality? Prove why most all mammals have a sub-population exhibiting gay tendencies. Prove why I prefer intimacy with men and never consider females. Was I born that way? It feels like it. Why can't I be me if I am hurting no one? Why put me under a microscope?

          John, those ideas you think are "weighing" down the Christian faith are, IMO, absolutely amazing and its contributions make it the greatest story ever told. IMO, it doesn't matter if any of it really happened... it is the message, it's self evident, and it is awesome.

          The crucifixion exemplifies many profound principles and liberating concepts, like understanding what grace is. The message is to life more abundantly. Those who have an ear will hear. Seek and you shall find. Its message is obscure because the pious right were looking to do away with these teachings because they liberate people from their oppression.

          BTW, IMO, there's suggestions of reincarnation in the Bible. First in reading Ecclesiastes 1:5-11. Then signs of it everywhere. Reincarnation made some other confusing verses finally make sense. Like the disciple asking Jesus if the man was born blind because of his sins. How could he be "born" with sin... did he sin in the womb... or maybe a past life?

          1. Rev. John D. Partin's Avatar Rev. John D. Partin

            Hi Linda! Thank you for writing back so soon. Unlike you, I haven't gotten as much from "discussions" with John Owens as you have, but if he's helped you, so be it. If the dogmas and attachments to the idea of "God" are taken symbolically and it doesn't matter if they actually happened or not, I suppose that they could be beautiful and if they help people, more power to them. I believe that reincarnation makes a lot of sense and explains many things in life and it was originally believed by the Christians until an early church council ruled against it and declared it "heresy". John Owens was arguing against there being a "gay gene" and because that couldn't be verified scientifically, "nobody could possibly be born gay".You are right, of course, that people should just be accepted as they are and it shouldn't matter if the reason for their being as they are can be found.

  1. Nellie's Avatar Nellie

    God's word will always stand. Whatever he says he will bring it to pass. What did the bible say in Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you,Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. God is saying Heaven and Earth both will pass away before one word that he says pass away. Leviticus 18:22 - Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Meaning man shall not lie with man and women should not lie with women. Deuteronomy 22:5 -The women shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God. He said a woman shall not wear clothing trying to be a man and a man shall not wear clothing trying to be a woman. Exodus 20:14 - Thou shall not commit adultery. Matthew 19:18 - You must not commit adultery. Sin is sin in God eyes. No sin is greater than the other. The consequences of sin is different. In God's word, no matter what surgery you have, no matter what you change your name to, etc.... Your DNA will tell medical science what you are. He made us different for a reason. No matter how much we fight back and forth and say what we think. God's word is not changing. No matter the laws man change. God is not changing. You chose your life and pay the consequence in the endtime. Because it will be an endtime. God said it. Not one of His words will pass away. I only quoted the BIBLE. Nellie

    1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

      Ah yes Deuteronomy, the shiite that says if a man rapes a woman she ahs to wed him and serve him faithfully. You may as well get the shirt that says "rape apologist" and the hat that says "I kneel for my priest with an open mouth."

    2. REV. JOnathan Lee Mead's Avatar REV. JOnathan Lee Mead

      Amen.

    3. Howard's Avatar Howard

      Hi Nellie. It wouldn't hurt to mention the strong wording that Paul put into Romans and first Corinthians about those that would not inherit the kingdom of God. But if they want to throw out part of the Bible they will throw out all of it if it doesn't fit their ideas, and they think our mind is closed because we just accept the Bible at face value. So be careful when you argue with one considered to be a fool for you could be called one yourself. Howard

  1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

    Yes, your gods word will always stand:

    Exodus: 21:20-21. “And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.”

    Bottom line, your very immoral god is okay with people owning people, and they can be punished with a rod as long as they don’t die in the first two days after being beaten. So just make sure that anyone you own survives at least two days and you should be okay.

    Don’t blame me, I only quoted the BIBLE.

    ?❤️

    1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

      tsk Lion...don't you know the difference between servant and slave? And, you don't seem to grasp the concept that people didn't have cushy electric devises back in those days and needed manual labor. In that scenario, servitude was a matter of necessity. That law was enacted to prevent abuse of servants. Not to allow it.

      1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

        I do of course realize that culture was different, but that doesn’t excuse any deity enacting a law to forbid anyone beating any other person to death no matter how many days had passed. That law did not prevent abuse of servants Kim. They could still be beaten as long as they didn’t die within two days. What sort of sick deity would allow that?

        I of course know the answer to that question Kim, it was the same sick deity that instructed someone to stone a man to death for picking up sticks on the sabbath. It was the same sick deity that killed the first born infants due to his anger with Pharaoh.

        Thankfully, he doesn’t exist.

        ?❤️

        1. The Doctor's Avatar The Doctor

          And if it does exist I know of no other entity more deserving of the term The Ancient Enemy. A title they often try to direct away from their god towards the one that openly opposed it The Morning Star himself Lucifer.

        2. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

          Not so fast Lion dear. The man picking up sticks on the Sabbath was purposely disobedient to the law and when caught he compounded that by cussing out the lawgivers. Corporal punishment is not new and in that theocracy, corporal punishment of any of the 10 fundamental dictates was in place. Not because of the whims of a mad deity but because God chose a people to bring in Messiah and without the law there would be no Messiah and no resurrection to any form of life. As I've said before, no man has yet died. Simply because the body dies, consciousness disappears and men wait in their graves for the resurrection to judgment isn't death as defined by the Bible. So stick man has yet to "die". You underestimate God completely.

          And the passage says "smite" a servant. Not beat. Again, the OT law was to bring in the Messiah. For that reason, it was given to save mankind. Not allow men to ignore it. Consider that God sent his Son for that purpose only to be abused and killed. That Son's life (eternal life having EVER been that Son and NEVER "god") was of greater value than all mankind. Else the sacrifice of that Son would not have been sufficient to pay for all mankind's sin. Mankind is just fortunate that we are "under grace" which means that judgement is delayed ("grace" is NOT "unmerited pardon"). Else, we'd have been annihilated long ago and would have no hope of escaping death from which there is no return.

          Mark 14:65 And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands.

          1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Well....that’s a very interesting idea about the two deaths bit isn’t it. In the meantime, stick man could have been turned to a pillar of salt, or stone, which just might have been a little bit better than having his brain crushed by stones. However, let’s all pretend that the first death doesn’t really matter no matter how horrible and traumatic it might be. I’m sure your theory might just have been a little bit comforting for the victims if Jack the Ripper, if they’d known about it at the time. Not to mention those in the holocaust. However, it’s a very fun idea and if it gives anyone a shred of comfort, I say go with it.

            In the meantime I think I’ll pass on that idea and just go with the one and only body death bit. Thank you anyway.

            ?❤️

        3. REV. JOnathan Lee Mead's Avatar REV. JOnathan Lee Mead

          Wrong. He does exist. You will stand before him just like anyone who has ever lived and give an account for every single thing you have said and done. "Every knee shall bow and evert tongue confess that Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of Lords." I look forward to it. The Lord our God is mighty in battle. Psalm 144:1

          "Blessed be the Lord my God who trains my hands to battle and my fingers to fight."

          1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Wrong! You are totally deluded and have been deeply indoctrinated, but that’s okay if you really want to believe such farcical rubbish.

            Your mythical god is a crazy genocidal, infanticidal idiot. He needs punching on his nose for his utter cruelty to mankind. If he really existed I’d do it.

            ?❤️

  1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

    One group cannot honestly claim that any other group is responsible for their thought processes. That would be childish and dishonest. I is like saying, "They control our mind."

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Religion does control people’s minds.

      ?❤️

      1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

        Not so Lion dear. Men control the minds of others. Religion is just a tool. The Bible frees the mind. Psa 51:6

        1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

          Yes, the Bible was written by men. It’s philosophy, and tales, written by men under the pretext of Gods will. It binds the mind from allowing freedom of thought. Hence mans inhumanity to man in the name of the god of their religion.

          ?❤️

          1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            The Bible was indeed written by men over thousands of years and very consistently too in spite of one author being completely ignorant of another's writings. What you didn't say is that the Bible was not meant to be a "manual for living". It is a book of law written to condemn mankind and will be used at judgement day for that purpose. Religion uses the book in a vain attempt to be "god" and to rule mankind. It won't work in the end.

          2. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

            Thank goodness judgement day is all a myth. Unless of course you wish to believe otherwise, which I realize you do, and that’s okay if it helps you. You aren’t on your own with that belief if that also helps.

            ?❤️

  1. VCDee's Avatar VCDee

    Gays have always had rights (in America). The Bill of Rights gives them to all. You have the right to PURSUE happiness. Not demand it...are not guaranteed it....but you may pursue it ---provided you do not harm another in the process. Those who love to rebuke the Bible by saying it was 'written by men' certainly love to quote from it when it suits them. If you do not follow the Bible, you do not follow God. You have made yourself into your own 'god'. God gave us all free will. We can choose to follow Him...or we can choose to disobey and wander off the path. As for sexual sin, let's put that into perspective. ADULTERY, BESTIALITY, PEDOPHILIA AND HOMOSEXUALITY are all abominations to the Lord. Therefore the husband who takes his Playboy in the bathroom with him is no different than the homosexual marching around in some parade or the 'parent' taking their child to a gay event. As for me, I want to have a T shirt made that says "HETEROSEXUAL PRIDE ---Without us none of you would exist". It was mentioned that churches that don't comply with gay everything are 'emptying out'. In my area, they're emptying out and filling a church that is true to the gospels. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Many churches have closed now...but the church I speak of is having to build a new building to accommodate the exodus that is flowing their way. They are over 3000 strong now. The gospels are there to change the sinner...not for the sinner to change the gospels to suit the sin.

    1. Dr Griffith's Avatar Dr Griffith

      Many Christians are trying to force their beliefs on others as you are doing. If I want to live my life different than you live yours that is my choice. I choose not to believe in God or the Bible and you do. Stop trying to force me to live that way that you do, it is stifling, hateful, and small-minded.

    2. Linda's Avatar Linda

      VCDee, the NT overrides the OT, and the NT says nothing is wrong with being gay. Nothing. Shouldn't people do a little studying into the scriptures before they use it to ruin people's lives? Hmmmm? Wouldn't that be a dark cloud hanging over someone's head on judgment day? Maybe it's like using God's name in vain? I'm glad I've avoided that particular one. phew! (I'm sure I have others though... not throwing any stones here.)

      1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

        I didn’t know that Linda. So the Ten Commandments were overridden by the NT? Interesting! Not that I believe that book anyway. I bet Kimberly will have something to say about this.

        ?❤️

        1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

          first...…………..Romans 1:27 is all about homosexuality...…. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet (appropriate).

          second...………...most of the NT is quoting from the OT.

          third...………….Mark 12:29 vs Deu 6:4 AND Mark 12:31 vs Lev 19:18 shows Jesus upholding the law. What was disannulled was the Levitical requirements including tithing in Heb 7.

          Religion teaches the law was "done away with". Jesus taught that the "spirit of the law" must be kept and in so teaching he made the letter of the law irrelevant rather than "done away with". Because in keeping the spirit (intent) of the law, breaking the letter of the law is not possible and thus is of none effect. For example, don't hate and you won't have to be concerned with the law against murder. What is of little surprise is that religion completely ignores Heb 7 and typically dictates that its followers must "tithe" to them. So, reach in them jeans and pull out them greens when the hat is passed.

          1. Linda's Avatar Linda

            Romans 1:27 is NOT talking about homosexuality. You have to read the whole chapter. It is talking about the pious religious right.

            When it says that the woman gave up her natural use of herself and man gave up the natural use of a woman and lusted after each other etc., etc. etc. that had NOTHING to do with homosexuality!

            If you look up "woman" in the lexicon, it says a "lactating woman." Romans 1:27 is about a woman giving up her nurturing side of herself and men giving up their nurturing side of their self, condemning others, thinking they are so righteous, and giving themselves over to reprobate minds, becoming whisperers, back biters, and war mongers. Well, that sounds like the pious religious right instead of gays!

            That's why the very first verse in chapter 2 says if we judge them, then we are no better than they are. Now, how could that apply to homosexuals... if I judge them, I'm doing the same thing they are? No, if I judge the religious right for judging, and not being nurturing to them, then I am no better than they are.

            Nothing about homosexuality. Personally, I think eunuchs were the gay guys in the NT. They had no desire for women, some were that way from birth and some became that way later on. That's why men had eunuchs taking care of their harem... no problem there.

            Jesus didn't do away with the laws. He fulfilled them, he showed how the laws serve man instead of making man serve the laws. Think! There are exceptions to the laws! They wanted to kill Jesus for healing someone on the sabbath. Jesus pointed out that to only honor the "letter of the law," the written word, without understanding first and foremost its intentions, its purpose, will bring death to us all.

            I think the OT focused on integrity and the NT focused on compassion. Faith, hope, and compassion... and the greatest of these is compassion. The NT transformed or renovated the OT... but didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

          2. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

            Linda...you're quite wrong about that. Rom 1 is speaking of the body and lust. Not about some abstract religious gook. Men don't lust after a lactating woman nor do they desire to suckle her breasts. Its all about sex dear. Don't you know that the word "fornication" is most often used in the New Testament? And, that word includes any type of sex that isn't within marriage between a man and a woman. Face reality.

            Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own BODIES between themselves:

            Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest (clear), which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

        2. Linda's Avatar Linda

          Lionheart, the OT was like the first will and testament, then the NT is like the second one. Someone's second will always overrides the first one.

          The NT never makes the Ten Commandments null and void at all, but it does express a deeper meaning that was being missed in the OT, IMO. Such as one commandment says not to work on the sabbath, but Jesus points out that if your oxen is in the ditch, get the poor thing out... even on the sabbath... that the laws were made for man, not man for the laws! Think! It is the intentions of the laws that are important, not the "letter" of the law or written words, which taken so staunchly and quite literally were killing us! Have some compassion.

  1. Robert Ryden's Avatar Robert Ryden

    Why would anybody be a member of an organization that considers them to be an abomination? Of course gays are leaving religion.

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Leaving a religion can of course be a good thing. Let’s hope more follow.

      ?❤️

  1. John's Avatar John

    Unconditional love is just what it says NO conditions. The more I love others the better.

  1. Hazel D Graep's Avatar Hazel D Graep

    First, why would anyone belong to a religion that tells them they're all going to hell? That would be emotional suicide.

    Second, it sounds like the research was done exclusively in Christian churches. Is there are plenty of LGBTQ pagans. And pagans are not atheist or agnostic, they are pagans and do have spiritual beliefs.

    Christianity is actually a very closed-minded religion in my opinion, as such not accepting LGBTQ people into its ranks without badgering them about hell.

  1. CRAIG's Avatar CRAIG

    You don't judge others and you live with tolerance. The minute people or religions start judging others, it's the moment they've gone off the path.

    This is a no-brainer. If you hung out with a person who continually berated you, told you how you were an outcast and needed to believe what he/she believed, what are the chances you'd continue to hang around that person? Same is true for Christianity in this case.

    Most religions like to hide behind the fact they are spreading God's word, but the fact is, it's God's word watered down by individual biases and personal beliefs, not the true words of God.

    God preaches tolerance. It's not our job to judge others because we can't see the bigger picture. God teaches love for all people. Why do you think Jesus hung out with the outcasts and the downtrodden? He was trying to show the "cool kids" there's no such thing and that we're all "cool kids."

    Embrace your fellow people, learn what they have to teach. I don't have all of the answers and neither does anyone else. It's because we don't see the bigger picture, so take the judgment out of religion and help your neighbors no matter their orientation or beliefs. We're all in this thing called life, and we're in it together. Let's make it better for everyone.

    1. Linda's Avatar Linda

      AWESOME!

  1. Adalberto Modes's Avatar Adalberto Modes

    Truth is Jesus Christ NEVER changes, and so doesn't His Word. What separate us from God is called sin. Homosexuality is not a BIG or SMALL sin. It is a sin as lying, stealing, adultery, fornication, blasphemy, gluttony, etc.... are also sins, and WILL bring you to the judgment day! it is pretty serious! I as a disciple of Christ must tell the biblical truth, and that is "JESUS CHRIST IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE" NO one will go to heaven without Him! He is a Holy God, and we MUST have His righteousness to be called sons and daughters of God. My question is: Have you been born again? Have your sins been washed away? Have you been forgiven of your sins? If you have any doubt about these questions, you need to review your Christianity.

  1. Bill Fox's Avatar Bill Fox

    Deuteronomy 30:19 19This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live Deuteronomy 30:15 15See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

  1. REV. JOnathan Lee Mead's Avatar REV. JOnathan Lee Mead

    God will bring to your remembrance, as you burn alive for all eternity the words you stated against Him. I have never seen anyone disrepect God the way you all have. Unless you repent of your wicked ways you will die and go to Hell. There you will be tormented day and night for all of eternity. Mark my words unless you reprent and believe on Jesus CHRIST for the remission of your sins YOU WILL BURN IN AN EVERLASTING FIRE KNOWN AS HELL.

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Oh stop it and grow up! Your blackmailing hell and damnation psychological games don’t phase me at all. There is no everlasting fire that you love to think there is. Your mythical god is an idiot and you’ve been thoroughly conned into believing it.

      Try and have a good fun filled happy day!

      ?❤️

    2. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

      There is no "everlasting fire" in the Bible. There is only an unquenchable fire and that originated from God. God is a consuming fire meaning a consuming fire shall come from the presence of God at the DAY of judgement. Not some ever burning firepit.

    3. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Thanks Kimberly, I’m feeling much better about Hell now, well.... a little better at least. Your version is better than Jonathan’s. He seems very consumed about it all. I’m sure he means well. I’m not sure what my wicked ways are as he seems to be filled with a lot of venom about people like me that doesn’t believe in his Jesus.

      I’ll try and put a good word in for him if I ever meet his god. That’s after I’ve punched his god on the nose for his poor behavior to us mere mortals. I’ll make it up to god though and buy him a drink afterwards.

      ?❤️

    4. Linda's Avatar Linda

      Wow, Rev. Jonathan... you might want to consider a break from your Biblical beliefs. Step back, take a look from another perspective. It seems it has taken you to a scary place my friend. Stop living in fear.

      I can understand you are just trying to save the lost, but that's already been done... it's not your job... relax my friend. Christ came to save EVERYONE and Christ never fails. It is Christ's job, not ours. Be patient... it's all in His timing... not ours.

      Enjoy the ride. You'll see Lionheart is a good person just as he is. That mindset, my friend, is a peaceful place to be.

  1. REV. JOnathan Lee Mead's Avatar REV. JOnathan Lee Mead

    You are ignorant and uneducated in Gods Holy word.

    Rev 20:14-15

    "And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    My name is in that book. Based on your beliefs you are not. Guess Gods word lets you know Where you will spend all of eternity. My words do not condemn you Gods does.

    Quit making comments on Gods word. You are not saved therefore His words are meaninless to you and all who oppose His words.

    1 Corinthians 2:14-16

    "But the natural man (you) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, Yet he himself(me) is judged of no man. (16) " For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? BUT WE (Christians) HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST"

    Quit quoting things from the Holy Scriptures, you are ignorant and vain and unholy, deceitful, a liar, you love men more than God. Repent of your wickedness and your idolatry Against MY HEAVENLY FATHER.

    1. Rev. John D. Partin's Avatar Rev. John D. Partin

      "Quit making comments on God's word...Quit quoting things from the Holy Scriptures". Then you quit putting the Bible in front of any other people's faces than your own who believe in all of that nonsense and other people won't be commenting on it or quoting from it to ridicule it because any books or words out in the public domain are for anyone to comment on as they see fit! Keep the Bible to yourselves and read only by yourselves and then you can be certain that nobody else will comment on it or quote from it!! It isn't only Lionheart who will be punching your phony god in his nose, but all of the other people whom he has allowed to be mistreated or mistreated himself, as well as kicking, scratching, eye gouging, head butting, karate chopping, judo throwing, body slamming, foot stomping, and all other methods of attacking god every time that they see him forever and having him always running from humongous masses of people out to get him!! Lionheart would be letting him off easy with a punch in the nose and then a drink, but many others won't be that charitable towards him!!

  1. REV. JOnathan Lee Mead's Avatar REV. JOnathan Lee Mead

    1 Corinthian's 6:9-10

    "Know ye not the UNRIGHTEOUS SHALL NOT INHEIRT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? BEnot deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind." (10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drukards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, SHALL INHEIRT THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

    Galatians 5:19-21

    " Now the works of the flesh are manifesr which are these: Adultrey, fornication uncleanness, lasciviousness, (20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, Variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, (21) Envyings, murders, drukenness, revellings. And such like: of which I tell you Before, as I have also told you in time past, THAT THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHEIRT THE KINGDOM OF GOD".

    Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away., but my words will never pass away". Jesus Christ

    Phillipians 2:14-16 "Do all things without murmurings and disputings. That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the World; holding forth the word of life."

    1. Linda's Avatar Linda

      Rev. Jonathan, you do know that the war between heaven and hell is in our mind and the side that wins is the side we feed the most? Heaven and hell is a "mindset."

      Jesus said the Kingdom of God is before you and you do not see it. Heaven is peace and love... is that your mindset? What is inside you will come out of you. Just think about it... and I only say this because I worry about you in a very sincere way. Underneath it all, I see you have a lot of good to offer. Fear is NOT the solution my friend.

  1. Mark Hannon's Avatar Mark Hannon

    Franklin Graham and Jim Baker are good reasons to dislike Christians and organized religion no matter what crap comes out of their mouth. Not to mention Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson and Jack Van Impe have hateful interpretations of scripture. Joel Osteen and other mega church megalomaniacs don't impress me, either.

    1. kimberly's Avatar kimberly

      I agree with you on that. However, doesn't justify rejecting God and the Bible. They represent themselves and they lie if they say otherwise.

    2. directortice's Avatar directortice

      I am so disappointed in Franklin.... His dad was real. His dad understood the meaning and importance of Salvation.... and He didn't try to get rich teaching it. Billy Graham was a good man... and Franklin just doesn't get it.

      Jimmy Baker and Joel Osteen, and the others were led astray by shiny little idols..... money made the world go around for them at their demise..... I hope they make it through that valley.....

      I have been posting a daily Bible Study for years..... and the site shows the number of hits.... I got quite stuck on the numbers.... at one point I was getting 8,000 hits some days...... normal is about 200..... and it scares me that I will get a big head.... like those big name guys..... https://forums.somd.com/forums/religion.30/

      I can indeed see how they got off the path..... I sincerely hope they get back on the path soon.....

  1. Mike's Avatar Mike

    Religion, never saved anybody. Only Jesus Christ. Gods word doesn’t change to suit the sinner. It convict the heart and soul. When Christ addressed the woman at the well, He did not accept her sin. He addressed it and told her to go and sin no more. It is a difficult subject matter and must be handled gently with love. People have a hard time thinking, this is a sin. It is, according to Gods word. So is heterosexual intercourse outside the boundaries of marriage. Both are sins according to Gods word. That doesn’t change. Playing church or filling pews doesn’t save you or make a church. You are save by Christ. The church is what we do for Christ. Helping the poor. Feeding the hungry. Living Christ’s love for others. Let God deal with the sin. Once someone knows they are in sin, quit pointing it out. That’s the Holy Spirits job. If they are in a position of Authority, then you take it to the elders and address it. As a church we are to love and support each other. If a man is cheating on his wife, we are to bring the sin to his attention. Offer support. Not condone his actions. Not try to change Gods word to make it acceptable. God loved David and made him King of Israel. When David stole another mans wife, He didn’t change His word for David. He sent Nathan, and Nathan told David a story of a rich man who stole a poor mans sheep. You know the story. I don’t have the answer of how to address each person but prayer is your first response. Pray for Gods wisdom and love to guide you. Rebuking someone is not easy. Sometimes it is necessary. God Bless. Prayers for everyone to receive Jesus!

    1. Lionheart's Avatar Lionheart

      Nah...I don’t think your Jesus guy could even “save” a goal if he played for a junior soccer team. It would be fun to watch him try though with his dress on.

      My thoughts and thoughts are with you Mike. Not too sure what that does, but who knows? People like to say things like that in the vein attempt it helps. We all know it doesn’t, but pretend it does...right?

      ?❤️

  1. Glenn's Avatar Glenn

    I was raised as an Episcopalian as a youth, but later in life I cannot recite the creeds that would declare my faith. Too much dogma and magic for me. I recognize that there probably was a man named Christ who walked the earth and spoke words of love, truth and morality. I do no think that Christ would have shamed or admonished LGBT individuals as long as they did not hurt anyone. And as for The Great Spirit, I think he/she/it has too many important things to do then to reject people in the community

  1. Reb TK's Avatar Reb TK

    Most of the true "Evangelical" individuals I have known have been very LGBTQ+++ supportive. Some have identified at LGBTQ+++ themselves. I'm not saying we haven't had our differences from time to time! I suggest that there is a difference between individuals who wish to inform and share with others their beliefs and philosophies and those who seek advantage, expound fear, hatred, guilt, etc. from the pulpits and the airways, raising money for themselves , and encouraging their followers to donate to pet political candidates and causes. If LGBTQ+++ peoples are leaving, its because they are going elsewhere. And wherever they go, the congregations will prosper, both spiritually and practically. The places they leave will be the poorer for it. Tk

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