Rising ocean tides. Swarms of insects. Hellish, red, smoke-filled skies. These are either signs of the apocalypse, or symptoms of man-made climate change, depending on who you ask.
Many religions teach that earth is sacred and that part of humanity’s role here is to steward the protection of our planet.
Yet, a new study shows that the religiously affiliated are much less likely than other groups to believe that humanity is to blame for climate crises.
The responses tell an interesting story.
Waiting For Judgment Day
The Pew Research study found that some 92% of those who identify as highly religious (those that pray and regularly attend church service) believe that “God gave humans a duty to protect and care for the Earth.”
However, only 42% of that same group believe that climate change is a serious problem, and only 39% believe that humanity has some role in our rising global temperatures.
The researchers wondered: why is that? How can a group that believes God expects them to care for the environment believe that climate change isn’t actually a problem for our planet?
Pew reported a number of views, including:
- There are larger problems in the world
- The climate is not actually changing
- That God is in control of the climate
- Environmental regulations could stifle businesses or result in a loss of jobs
Other respondents reported that their local pastors simply aren’t talking about climate change from the pulpit.
Will God Save Us From Climate Change?
Some people of faith say scripture guides their belief that climate change isn’t that big of a deal.
For example, Answers in Genesis (AiG), the organization run by prominent evangelical creationist Ken Ham, cites Psalm 148:8 as proof that God has ultimate dominion over the weather:
Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word
Therefore, the climate is in God’s hands, they argue.
It’s perhaps the most prominent argument: the world won't end because humans pumped too many fossil fuels into the atmosphere – it will end, as is written in the Bible, on judgment day.
Saving Earth, One Hymn at a Time
While many Christians argue that climate alarmism is literally just hot air, there are some who say their faith is actually what compels them to fight climate change.
One such activist, an Oregon man named Peter Fargo, says that his Christian faith and the science of climate change don’t have to be at odds.
“The beauty and the glory of a mountain landscape of the communities that are nestled between mountains and valleys here in Eastern Oregon are just part of God’s creation,” he argues. “And we have a part to play in that.”
After the birth of his son in 2019, Fargo founded Climate Vigil, a faith-focused climate change action group. His hope: to get other Christians on board with fighting what he says is a climate crisis.
Unlike most climate change arguments, which focus strictly on scientific facts, Fargo’s approach is an intermingling of faith and science. He collaborated with musicians to create climate-related hymns, for example, and he wrote a book entitled “A Million Prayers to Solve our Climate Crisis.”
He points to Psalm 24:1 as evidence that he’s on the right track:
The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it
What is Humanity's Role?
Does humanity have a spiritual obligation to this place we call home? It’s all an interesting theological question.
As shown by the Pew study, many people of faith seem to believe that while we ought to look after the planet we live on, the threats of climate change are at best exaggerated.
Others point to the Bible as evidence that God's will is a far greater force than greenhouse gasses.
And yet, in that very same book, one man found completely different answers – evidence in scripture that he had a moral obligation to do his part in the fight against global warming.
What is your outlook?
202 comments
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Geoffrey C. Olive
No prayers have ever been proved to achieve what the religiously infected believe! When science or other human activities achieve something that religious believers pray for, they claim it is god’s action as if the doctors or other humans had nothing to do with it! Ignorance and stupidity at its worst!
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ServantOfJudgement
Dunno about that. I had a few long shot prayers answered, one was instant healing of a 3 month old hand injury. I was trying to brush my teeth with my injured hand when I prayed, the pain was crippling. Extreme heat in my hand and Pow, back on line! Couple other wild longshots got answered too. Believe if you please, don't believe, just as good. You can call me crazy, I don't mind, my hand will still work either way. Go God go!
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
So God helps you out, despite all odds - and you repay him by how you judge and treat His Creations?
For shame.
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Lionheart
I wonder if people referred to 1930’s to 1936 as Global Warming, which saw many heat records broken during those years? 🤔
Personally, I’m not convinced about Global Warming being man made. A Nobel Prize winner in Physics 2022, Dr. John Clauser, recently made a statement saying “I don’t believe there is a climate crisis” After speaking out against this manufactured crisis, he was denied his previously-approved speaking engagement at the International Monetary Fund. How surprising is that?😜
He’s not the only one that disagrees, Meteorologist, John Coleman, the founder of The Weather Channel, agrees that there is no significant man-made global warming.
I doubt any of the worlds man-made gods are going to interfere with any of the worlds man-made theories. 🤭
🦁❤️
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@ Lionheart You are confusing weather, daily temperatures with Climate Change as when the Earth’s climate was much different as when the dinosaurs lived or during the Ice Age. While the Earth can and has survived many climate changes it’s humans and many of the life forms that are alive right now that can not. Just as humans are sick when our temperatures rises just a few degrees, same is true for life on Earth.
As for the “professionals” who say claim climate change and man caused climate change is NOT occurring we know they are part of an industry that is causing doubt and confusion for financial, religious and political reason. Please take a look at the Harvard research about this by Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway. You will find this causing doubt and confusion industry was created and well funded by the tobacco industry 50 years ago. And several of the same scientists who say there is no climate change also said there is no evidence cigarette smoking causes lung cancer. And when on to say DDT is not a threat to our environment. And that there’s no such thing as acid rain. Here’s the link to their research. I’ll leave it up to you decide if people like John Coleman are part of the selling doubt and confusion or are using science and pressing the facts. The rebound scientist Fred Singer was a leader in the climate change doubt and confusion industry for 30 years. Shortly before his death he admitted the evidence for climate change is there and that Climate change is real. He added after in depth analysis of the data, man is the cause of Climate Change. His motivation for lying with financial and political. You will also find John Coleman did the same prior to his death. Should you want proof start with this link. https://www.merchantsofdoubt.org/
I think you are will educated and if you should research this I would be interested to see what your thoughts are about these scientists intentionally spreading doubt and confusion.
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Robert Rohr
This is my view too. Throughout history, the world has had natural heating and cooling cycles. I live in the southern Arizona desert and this July was the hottest on record - a hell on Earth. However, it was one of the coolest June's and coldest winters on record. We tend to forget the enormous environmental improvements we have made in the U.S. and Europe since the 1960s. This is somewhat negated by the rise of the environmentally irresponsible industrialization of China and India. However, that alone is not the cause. At the same time, natural cycles do not give cause to abandon efforts at environmental protection as stewards of the Earth, but the efforts need to be balanced between the negative economic impacts on individuals and environmental benefits.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I believe in human caused climate change because I don't get my 'science' from Fox News.
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
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Gary D Minnis
Like our government has been so truthful with us. Remember Covid? FFS.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I remember Fox News.
https://ysph.yale.edu/news-article/study-finds-large-gap-in-excess-deaths-along-partisan-lines-after-covid-19-vaccines-introduced/
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Daniel Gray
trying to use a discredited left wing source as your "proof" yet again I see.
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Michael Hunt
Since when was the Yale School of Public Health a "discredited left wing source"? You just claim that any source that doesn't agree with you is discredited because you can't refute an argument. It's okay to be wrong every now and then, you know. It's called learning!
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Daniel Gray
already posted links showing they were biased and discredited to Kenny.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You proved nothing DG, as usual.
You only think you do - but don't worry, everybody can see that.
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Daniel Gray
And how do you explain that every link I sent in is clearly active and yet your little keyboard could not seemingly open them? Does not say much about your ability to use a computer now does it Kenny? And you are right, everyone can see you dont know what you are talking about
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
No probably from Bill Freaking Gates. So be a genocidal maniacs and kill billions of people. Climate change occurs naturally.it happens every season. The world used to be a tropucal.planet, then turned cold, now it's warming up. Big deal. Man should quit playing with the weather before he really screws things up. It's all fake. If water levels are really rising why are the climate changevelitists buying beach front homes. You really need to do the research.
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Catherine
@Lionheart
I'm borrowing this from Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson who shared it elsewhere:
https://climate.nasa.gov/news/3072/direct-observations-confirm-that-humans-are-throwing-earths-energy-budget-off-balance/
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Brien
Again, it seems that humans have been granted some kind of power over the universe. We are just one species of animal on this planet, and to be honest, we're not even an impressive species. The arrogance of our species seems to come from the mythical believers book club. Peace ✌️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Look at the science. There are plenty of links here. Just look at them.
Have you ever heard of the logical fallacy, "Argument from Incredulity"? Google it. I see it all the time on this issue - and it just doesn't cut it.
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Catherine
@Brien,
Are you familiar with Plato's Allegory? If not, this is brief and partially explains how what @Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson is describing, comes about.
Like the scientific greats Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson mentioned, we can also learn to combine different perspectives and work well together to move forward in a good way. Then the helplessness that wants to take over when we're feeling less than strong, doesn't stand a chance. Our thinking becomes more clear.
Logical fallacies, I think, happen innocently more often than not. Usually when we've been persuaded to believe misinformation. Then we defend what we 'now know' as if our life depends upon it.
It is then we should remind ourselves that everything changes. And as much as life can sometimes feel like a merry-go-ground spinning too fast for enjoyment, we can find ways to slow it down.
When we say to ourself, "step back, question, mull over" what story we've been told - or are telling ourself - the emotional nausea settles down. Like getting our sea legs on a rocking boat.
There is lasting comfort and great personal growth in learning how to do that at will. To be able to call up an inner peace when needed takes not a lot of practice. It's more about intent assisted by a little boost of effort.
And, truth never needs defending, yes? I am comfortable saying truth will always find a light, even if that takes longer than we prefer. Do we choose to see a truth when it shines, is what we must be honest with ourself about.
All else is sand in the eyes and ears and heart.
I should apologize for what is likely to be soliloquy taking up space here, but it is nearly heartbreaking to hear young people voice such despair.
You'll be okay though, as long as you do what is good for you. And listen for the inner voice that will never harm you.
As far as discussion about this topic goes, it might be said we are all on a learning curve. Even experts have not agreed on solutions. Perhaps we are facing a definitional wicked problem. Still, historically some wicked problems have been unraveled.
What each of us can do while we're waiting in the wings, is practice self-enlightened interest. Improve our own little area of the world with what we are individually capable of doing.
Last, hopefully none of this sounds as if I think I have all the answers. That is definitely not a fact or a truth : . )
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Catherine
Haha... negelected to add the link.
https://youtu.be/QFi8JUIwu2s?t=5
Plato's Allegory of the Cave -- Narrated by Orson Welles
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Brien
Hmmm, you mean the same science that was bought by greed and created the most damaging cr@p ever thought of. The same science that studies whatever is paid for and never quite delivers answers. That science right? I don't let others think for me. If you think for yourself you tend to see things a different way. You may believe as you wish. I will never accept thos beliefs. Peace ✌️
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Catherine
Copernicus, Galileo, Hypatia, Tesla, Turing, Einstein, Carson, Faraday, Pauling, Kepler, and who knows how many dozens or hundreds(?) more... not to mention home and garage inventers, and philosophers who furthered and nurtured critical thinking.
There must be motivation behind scientific discoveries, be that money, politics, or people with the means to puruse passions. Yes? Greed and cr@p always? I think not.
To discount all science and scientists obtusely avoids discussion.
I don't want to say I hear the words of an impossible person or trolling. Perhaps that is so, nonetheless.
There's usually one in the bunch. Here there seems to be more.
Sussed and noted.
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Brenda Koehler
I wish they didn’t focus on climate change so much. If we focused on pollution instead, maybe there would be more buy in. Pollution such as lead, pesticides, and other items that affect our kids and our health. Studies should be done about the build up of lead in our soils from lead based gasoline and if there is a correlation to kids with autism…
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Catherine
That has been done without necessary effect. The worst of the worst are most protected because they have better paid lobbyists and lawmakers in their pockets.
What the rest of us can do, is rein in uncontrolled consumption.
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Brien
My friend 🦁❤️ does bring a valid point. You can try to pick the words apart but that doesn't diminish the viewpoint. I also laid this out in another post somewhere in here. This planet has gone thru cycles of change long before us, during our existence, and long after we are gone. Yes, we are polluting our own little footprint, and yes we should clean it up. But either way, the planet will continue with or without us. To think that we can control natural cycles on a planetary scale is simply foolish. We can't even predict the weather correctly. And EVERY time we mess with nature, the reaction is always bad. Sorry, but not even come to Jesus people can affect this. If prayer helps you live a good life, that's great. But prayer doesn't fix what is out of our control. The only thing we can do on a planetary scale is kill ourselves with big missiles. Guess what? Even if we do that, the world will still continue. Now, take a deep breath and think about it. Peace ✌️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
No, LH does not bring a valid point. He brings denial and wishful thinking.
You say "To think that we can control natural cycles on a planetary scale is simply foolish.", then you say "... EVERY time we mess with nature, the reaction is always bad." These are blatantly contradictory statements. Which is it? Are we impotent victims, or are we responsible le for what we do? Because the overwhelming EVIDENCE is that billions of people pumping billions of pollutants into the environment for centuries eventually causes calamity, just as you say.
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
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Brien
I am tired of explaining to closed minds. You did not read my post, and the snippet you pulled out is not contradictory. Look, you wish to clean the air, then come up with better alternatives. Guess what? Electric cars are just as bad for the environment as gas cars. They only difference is you can't see the pollution from electric cars. How do you think those batteries are made? How are they disposed of? Now, as far as the animals, of which WE ARE, every animal on this planet consumes. The consumption is a NATURAL cycle. We too consume, and as a part of the animal kingdom we are also part of the natural cycle. I am not telling you not to be better with your environment, I am telling you that neither you nor I have any control over the natural cycles that this living world goes thru. Whether it be an ice age, or a total meltdown, we hve no control over it. So you do whatever floats your boat. I am simply going to enjoy my time left on this world. Peace ✌️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thank you for your thoughtful reply Brien.
I think you are wise to enjoy the time you have left on this earth. I am going to do much the same - as the alternative is decidedly unpleasant.
But let me bring some things to your attention.
Evolution is no longer in the hands of nature. Have you seen what we've done to the wolves? Have you seen what we've done to all domesticated animals? I assure you without man things would be quite different. Have you ever heard of the Anthropocene Extinction? Google it. You should be aware.
Look outside your window right now. I can virtually guarantee you that NOTHING you see outside your window is untouched by the hand of man. Even if a forest, it is virtually guaranteed the original forest that was there was cut down centuries ago, and replanted by workers - by the hand of man.
Hills. Rivers. Valleys. Lakes. Forests. The hand of man has touched nearly EVERY square inch, at one time or another, on the face of the earth. The atmosphere is no different, and EXHAUSTIVE science shows it is not without consequence. Did you read about sea temperature off the coast of Florida recently? It was over 100 degrees F. Are you going to suppose that is "natural"?
Like it or not, for better or worse, we have decided we are in charge, and we have had our way with the earth for centuries - and now we want to say we aren't responsible for it????
That, in a word, is irresponsible.
What is the primary cause of this devastation? Fossil fuels. Who wants it made absolutely clear that they are not to blame? Fossil fuels.
As they love to say, in order to get you to think something - Don't let them tell you what to think.
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Brien
No, we have not decided anything. I don't remember being in that meeting. You are right. We have put our stinking, greedy hands into every part of our environment. Now, nature is snapping back. We have already done or damage as consumers. We needed to be smarter a long time ago before we wrecked our environment Now it is too late. The natural cycle has been escalated due to our short sighted greed. Now WE are going to have to re-adapt just to continue this species. We CANNOT stop what is to come. But instead of trying to adapt, others have decided that being humans means this species rules everything. We kill everything, we rule over NOTHING. All I see now is a bunch of sniveling zealots wondering if their magical being will flip a switch and fix everything. There is no denying that we screwed it up. Unfortunately, we are simply too stupid, too greedy, and far too ignorant to fix anything. Other species also consume and will end eventually. They will outlive us because they live far closer to nature than we do. That is just too simple to understand. Peace ✌️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I think I am not understanding entirely your point, but I will say this...
Re-adapting is a constant responsibility. So is consciousness. Asking the questions; What are we doing? How does it work? How do we make it better? Is this working? This constant questioning centers us in reality and directs us accordingly.
The working principle of Faith as it is commonly practiced is that one already knows everything. There is nothing else to know - and that is what moves one out of the PRESENT and out of REALITY.
So I agree - "magic" is no answer.
Peace. ✌️
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Brien
Faith, wishing to a magical being to put the answers in your head. My thoughts are simple. Man has used up his back yard. Other animals have not, we did it for them. Other animals are conscious, do they have to contemplate that? Nope. And no matter how much you over achieving holier than tho zealots deny reality, nature will still make sure that we won't be the last species on this world . And to the person that rightfully pointed out mans interference with genics, that is NOT a proud moment. Neither was the a-bomb. Here is a freaking clue, man needs to stop screwing with nature. That might buy us a few more years. Peace ✌️
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
The unpleasant alternative is you won't be here. Others will. The Great Reset is not what I would wish on anyone that is not part of the elite crowd. They will bring us into a very dark modern age. The haves enslave the have nots and kill off the rest.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The 'Haves' only 'have' because of the 'Have-nots'. It's called "exploitation", and it is the basis of our economy.
Kill off the have-nots, and they kill themselves.
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Catherine
All of what you said there is so completely poignant. Apathy. Resignation. Nothing can be done.
Horse biscuits!
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Brien
Nope, not this time. I will continue replying to this until the mods stop censuring me. My comment for you to go choke on your biscuits is a DIRECT response to what was said to me. Furthermore, the planets cycles will happen whether you like it or not. You want to do something? Convince people to stop screwing with nature. Because nature is screwing us right back. So, will the magical being fix this? Nope.
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Alan Meunier
1) If "God" has a "master plan" then prayers are fruitless and it is up to us.
2) If "God: exists he has given us the knowledge and the tools to combat climate change but not many are listening.
3) If "God" doesn't exist then it is all on us anyway.
Here in the "godless: Northeast the water has warmed to such a level this year that we now have skin eating and brain eating bacteria in the sound, lakes, and bays. It may be too late. I am a boater and I no longer dare swim in the ocean. That is where we are currently at. If you cannot see it then you are in denial.
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Rev. Kev
This article asks: Will God Save Us From Climate Change?
Short answer: No.
Time for folks to stop kicking the can down the road or hoping someone or something else will make it all better and shoulder some serious responsibility. Humans screwed things up. It's up to humans to do something now to mitigate all (or at least most possible) of the environmental harm we've been inflicting on the only planet we can currently live on.
That's what we need to do.
But most likely what we won't do.
Too many people in pure denial. Others are too busy raking in wads of money to do any serious damage control. Still others don't want to face the sort of sacrifices of our current luxury lifestyles required to make actual, useful changes. For all of our technological achievements, I have come to realize we humans are not a very bright lot. As future generations will sadly face.
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Bond Wright
100 million people died during the World War II and God didn't show up to help out.
Just saying......-
ServantOfJudgement
Bond, do you expect a giant shimmering hand or a Star Trek Force field to drop down somewhere? All aggressive nations in WW2 were destroyed fully. Germany had its entire country decimated and divine dedication in two. Japan's worship of their God emperor ended. If that's setting silent I'd hate to see it when God's on the muscle.
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Brien
What God? What make believe nonsense are you peddling?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
If God didn't act then why did the Democratic nations defeat the non-democratic nations. Who got the nuclear bomb first? And now who wishes to destroy democratic republics? A sinister worldwide communism. Gid will intervene. I don't think he'll take pity on the Antichrist disguised as communism.
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Catherine
A woman was sitting on the roof of her house during a flood. She prays to God asking for his help. Soon, men in a boat come by and ask to help her. She says "no", she already prayed to God for help.
The house sinks deeper. Someone else comes by asking if she needs help. She says "no", she already prayed to God and she's waiting for him to help her.
It's getting dark. Her feet nearly touch the water rising around her roof. A neighbor comes paddling by and asks if she needs help. She says "no" because she prayed and God is going to help her.
After the water has rose so high she's actually in the water now, she cries to God asking why he hasn't answered her prayers. She hears God's voice say, "I sent you help three times."
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Rev. MichaelRS
Starting about the year 850 California had a drought that lasted over 200 years. After that it had several droughts that lasted over 50 years.
Today they moan and groan about a drought that last five or seven years since observable records were being kept starting around only about 1860.
27,000 years ago 2/3 of Britain was covered in ICE. In the centuries that followed the ice gave way until eventually the islands were more or less as we know them today.
What caused those droughts in California and what caused the ice to receive from Britain?
I'm really going to not get into that, but what I will tell you is what it was not and what it was not was man-made climate change. Unless you think the cooking and campfires from the few thousand people scattered around those two areas were causing it by their carbon emissions.
Nobody denies that there is climate change. The climate has always been changing. Sometimes slower sometimes faster.
We only think it is going much faster today because we have greater, more accurate resources to measure it and collect real-time data than they did over the last centuries or millennia. But that data is less than 200 years old and much of that, until about 100 or so years ago was still not very accurate.
And if a area got too hot or too cold or became uninhabitable because of rising or lowering sea levels, the tribe just moved until eventually, over the last few thousand years which is a drop in the bucket compared to the history of the Earth, they found areas that were more or less stable for habitation.
Anyway, God will neither save us nor condemn us through climate change. The climate will continue to change as it always has. We're just a more populous planet now with people wanting to live by the shores or in other areas that are most affected by climate change.
If we in the West meeting mostly Europe and the Americas stopped using every drop of fossil fuel from now going forward it would pretty much have zero effect on the rest of the planet because the planet is going to do what it is going to do and China and India and other developing countries pollute, for however much you think that affects the climate, far more than we in the west do
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ServantOfJudgement
Rev M
Good point on where we live. The great plains were mostly unpopulated by native Americans, same is true with costal regions in the southern states. Europeans came and just moved into these empty spaces, well not exactly empty, they had to share the land with hurricanes, tornados, wild fires, super cell storms and drought. Still, you've got a valid point.
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Robert Rohr
Yes, drought was a primary cause of the demise of the great Mississippian civilization and culture in the Midwest and Southeast. The land could no longer support large concentrations of population and the peoples had to disperse. Perhaps the Earth was not made to support large population concentrations over centuries (think about it - the megacities of the world are fairly new as is the influx of people to coastal areas) and those people who survive and thrive are those with the flexibility to change. The climate is changing. I have seen it just in my lifetime. Mankind needs to adjust to it, but environmental regulations, though important if reasonable, are not the answer.
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Rev. MichaelRS
Authoritarians never let a good crisis go to waste, whether it's real or invented or exaggerated.
Whatever tool they can use to monitor and control people's behavior they will use.
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William Waugh
Yeah. You folks (most), just don't get it. Climate models and projection algorithms were not created by apes. They are highly, highly accurate. Does the planet get natural ups and downs? Yes. Does that let humans off the hook? No. Imagine. If you will, an earth sized terrarium on a superplanet that is maintained by the equivalent of a 12yr old. They never change the water and all the inhabitants just let thier carbon and carbon monoxide and methane pour back into the tank. Yeah its happening faster now. Has human population growth been out of control? Every human on the planet is a 98° furnace. And typically gives a pint or so of methane daily. And thats not counting the land beast industry required to feed them. Every manufacturing process produces heat. Yeah, god is going to save us. I think not.
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Anisahoni
What a silly question. If such a god existed, sh/e has done a terrible job so far. I used to believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and other mythological creatures.
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ServantOfJudgement
What's so terrible about the endless cosmos, the sight of a butterfly from a cocoon and the sound of a baby laughing?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
If anybody had any sense of science in here they would realize both poles were tropical at one time, now both are. It could just so be we are heading in that direction again . The world revolves in a cyclical process yearly and in millions of years. Truthfully , I recently read that the Ice Mass is actually increasing a few inches each year. What humanity really needs to do is stop trying to control what God created. Quit playing God. That's where humanity screws things up.
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Pastor Jim
Earth has been in a constant state of change since Earth was formed. If one is actually referring to a "climate emergency" they would be ignorant of the credible science that exists explaining otherwise. Carbon is an invisible gas that has nothing to do with controlling the ozone layer and even less to do with controlling climate control. The present state of political affairs regarding climate is a scam that has more to do with controlling the weak and mentally challenged who allow others to think and discern an effective interpretation of reality for themselves.
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David Arthur Lewis
Nope, sorry. Your Invisible-Man-in-the-Sky is not going to save you. You are not going to "Fly Away With Jesus" to Glory Land. Heaven and Hell are not places you go to after you die. They exist right here, right now. "The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand" not sometime in the future. Very few of us live in Heaven, though there are some; most humans reside in Hell. A Hell of our own making. Just ask any opioid addict.
Yes, we are responsible for the stewardship of our planet. We have failed in that responsibility. We have known for more than 50 years exactly what would happen if we continued burning fossil fuels, and now it is obvious even to the trumpiest of the Trumpites. Climate change is not a 'Chinese Hoax'. This is not part of a normal process. We fucked up, Bigly, and we are now going to pay the Piper.
So, if you're going to pray, include the 'mea culpa'.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Yoyr opinion. Not ours. So don't thrust it on others. Keep it to yourself.
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David Arthur Lewis
Howzabout practicing what you preach? This a place to discuss opinions on theology. Do you have an opinion? If so, let's hear it. But if you're only here to argue and troll people of faith, you should go back to "Un-Truth Anti-Social".
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Catherine
Did you not post your opinion above? Aren't these articles and responses designed to discuss by eliciting opinions?
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John M. Endress
My faith requires that I be a good steward. I’ll do what I can but I’ll need assistance from many of the over seven billion other people who occupy this planet. For the foreseeable future, we need to work together to survive, or we’ll become another example of a fruit fly experiment.
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Catherine
Scientists from a wide variety of backgrounds and having varied religious denominations managed to work together, as did Tesla being Serbian Eastern Orthodox and Einstein being a self-described agnostic.
https://bigthink.com/words-of-wisdom/tesla-4/
"Science and Religion are Compatible. Science and Dogma are Not."
Words of wisdom from Nikola Tesla: "There is no conflict between the ideal of religion and the ideal of science, but science is opposed to theological dogmas because science is founded on fact."
My hope is that more of us become less rigid and, like scientists, open to respectful, objective, purposeful discussion, that does not require involving personal beliefs.
I think discussing religious expectations specific to global climate change without being on the same page with basic physical understandings, makes informed discussion difficult.
First this, because I read some confusing posts about climate change and global warming:
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-difference-between-global-warming-and-climate-change
“Global warming” refers to the rise in global temperatures due mainly to the increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. “Climate change” refers to the increasing changes in the measures of climate over a long period of time – including precipitation, temperature, and wind patterns."
And this, which explains in lay terms one aspect of global climate change that most of should be able to relate to:
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/understanding-arctic-polar-vortex
"When the polar vortex is especially strong, for example, the polar jet steam tends to stay farther north and to exhibit a more zonal flow, with less meandering. At the surface, this stable stratospheric state is often associated with an even colder than usual Arctic, and milder-than-usual weather in the mid-latitudes."
https://gpm.nasa.gov/education/articles/whats-name-global-warming-vs-climate-change
@Brien - Re: "We are different in that we recognize our part of it and are trying to correct ourselves. But others of the animal kingdom do not."
Do non-human animals drive or fly vehicles? Frack? Build oil rigs in delicately balanced seas?
I get that animals don't pick up their poop and do something with it. What is expected I can't imagine. Humans gather poop and send it elsewhere, without consideration of what happens when our collective poop arrives at its destination, be that in a body of water or land.
Something of an example: In Charles City County, Virginia, there was (is?) an active dump in the 1990s. Being an unusually poor county (at the time), an authority approved allowing another country to transport waste from overseas and dump it in CCC. There were running jokes about that authority who later realized he could not sell his own home to leave CCC. And righteously angry residents who were similarly trapped unless they could afford to live elsewhere after abandoning their home (an additional cost).
Yet, Charles City County is magically not on the NPL.
People who have not yet learned about criteria that must be met for the EPA to determine a superfund site, then look up superfund sitemaps, will likely be shocked.
It doesn't help to be overwhelmed or depressed, both of which invite apathy and resignation.
What does help is each of us improving our space and place in the world. Developing habits to consume less. Doing more with what we already have. Focusing on multi-functionality. Choosing function over aesthetics more often than not.
If enough of us do not come to this or a similar conclusion, we might as well wear blinders and blissfully hope for the best.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
I would recommend anyone interested in this topic to read ANY geology text book or scientific literature written by geological scientists about the current Ice Age with its relatively short interglacial periods of relative warmer temperatures for which there is enormous amounts of evidence from tree rings to ice cores. We are currently in one of these periods! NB you will not find ANY references to a god, Jesus, holy ghost or supernatural beings! Believe what you like, religious fools, it doesn’t change scientific evidence!
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
A few others should be polled as to their inclination to assist humans. Spiderman, Batman, Superman, The Flash and Richie Rich spring to mind. Or everyone just tell Santa to keep the two front teeth and fix the climate.
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ServantOfJudgement
Get that storm chick from the X-Men, she could fix it all I bet. Wait a minute! She might be causing it all in the first place! I hate it when pretty girls go evil
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ServantOfJudgement
We fracture the ground we live on for oil. We build floating islands of plastic in the ocean. We strip mine Africa for toxic metals to save the climate. We burn chemical rail cars and fill the environment with filth and toxins. We dump excess chemicals into the water supply. We drench our crops with fungicides, pesticides and hydrocarbon fertilizers. We mandate the use of toxic compact fluorescent lights over incandescent lights. Our fields are salted with roundup and then we eat it. Our leaders each burn millions of pounds of jet fuel to discuss climate issues. Corporations have adopted consumerism as a philosophy. We wage senseless wars only to litter the battlefields with toxic metals and blood.
Why on earth would anyone think God would not let us reap what we sow when we seem content living in a pig sty? If anything, he'll use our behavior to judge us with, that's his style. We pollute the earth, we seem to want it that way, well, he'll let us have all we can stomach until we learn our lesson and pollute no more.
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Catherine
Pretty much. I think discussing the impact of humans on all our environments as if humans don't decide what gods or God(s) do about our actions, is pointless.
As little as I know for sure about most of life, I feel the ability of humans to justify actions and beliefs evolved into a willfully blind collective self-destruction.
Specific to what supports our existence, maybe the current and upcoming generation will adapt and move forward with mutual benefit as needs to happen.
There is always hope until there isn't.
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William Waugh
I thought that they were angels. Much to my surprise, we climbed aboard their starship and headed for the skies!!!
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
Would you say billions of people have no effect on all our environments?
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Daniel Gray
And you have yet to prove that NASA is wrong
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Here, most wise and merciful DG, is a link from NASA that you may not have seen:
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
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Daniel Gray
Take a look at who wrote it and you will see I am not disputing that the climate is warming, I am saying that EVERY FRICKING PLANET in the solar system is warming and mankind is only on one that we know of so stop with the smoke and mirrors and implications kenny and explain just how the other planets are warming as well instead of trying to blame it all on mankind.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
DG - the astounding thing here is that you truly do seem to believe that only what you understand can be true, and only the way you understand it. That's literally what you just said.
Here's another link for you to ignore:
https://www.opr.ca.gov/facts/list-of-scientific-organizations.html
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Daniel Gray
the astounding thing Kenny is you constantly try and use biased nonsense from the church of Global warming to prove your point and fail miserable each time you try
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
No DG, I don't fail.
I point to people who know much more of the subject than either you or I. You point to ancient opinion.
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Daniel Gray
yes Kenny you DOD fail as I gave you links proving that you know nothing about this and are just posting to see your opinion. You then destroyed yourself by claiming that none of the links worked. How sad for you as all of them were just rechecked and all of them are working links. So that means one of two things. Either you lied when you claimed that you checked the links *IE destroyed yourself by your own actions) or second, you placed all three links in the same search thus destroying yourself and proving that you dont know how to look at the links. So which is it Kenny as these are the only two options you have.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You disappoint me DG. That's just more typical conservative magical thinking.
"You are destroyed! Alla-Kazam!"
I have gone to the top of this comment thread, and nowhere do I say your links don't work - because you have posted no links in it. Perhaps you are referring to an unrelated comment thread?
You keep imagining a lot of things. It's old, DG, and it reeks of desperation.
Justy so you know.
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Daniel Gray
No kenny you disappoint yourself on how easy it is to destroy your claims and then you come back and whine about being shown how wrong you are.. clearly pathetic Kenny as I cant imagine anything when I provide links to back up what is said from reputable unbiased sources. You on the other hand.....well.
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Catherine
I do?
Do you have proof that the current billions of people have no effect on all our environments, compared to millions centuries ago?
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Brien
Yes, all people affect our environment. Can we control the natural planetary cycles that this world has always gone through? No, we can't. With or without us, this planet will continue. There never was a guarantee that we would continue. We will either adapt, or we won't. Peace ✌️
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Daniel Gray
And Catherine are you going to show proof that NASA's findings and the 300,000 ACTUAL Climatologists are all wrong because you think so?
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
Are you attempting to hold my side of discussion? Shame on you : . )
I asked questions and made no statement.
Even so, @Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson graciously posted a conclusive response for you.
My best understanding is a natural evolutionary process accelerated due to an increasing human population that is not effectively managing consumption and waste.
I wonder if humans had maintained a balanced coexistence with nature from the beginning of our existence, at what point would population increase have reached critical mass?
Whatever our speculations, there are serious problems to resolve. Or not, if too many of us are willing to plod like a herd of cows, chewing cud without any sense of urgency, toward self-destruction.
I hope though, that the end of the human race will not be due to stupidity. Douglas Adams’ “shoe economics” comes to mind.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
I don't get your reference to 'AMA'. Have you confused my questions with comments made by others?
Re: 'Kenny'. Are you referring to @Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson? That's the only 'Kenn' I found on this page. I hope you didn't intend to be rude by altering someone's name. And that is confusing when trying to follow responses.
Is your gripe with NASA and its sources at the website link @Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson provided? If so, there's not much that can be done about that.
I imagine a lot of people don't want to recognize their lifestyle hurts the environment. However, it doesn't take science or research to demonstrate that billions of people must have more impact on earth than millions.
If only history prior to 100 years ago is considered, how many wars have there been because people needed more resources and space? I'm not talking about a relative handful of rich people beating each other up for power and wealth. I'm talking about many more peoples who spread out across the world looking for better living options.
More specific to the topic of global climate change, what the public is told can reasonably assumed to be incomplete. Partly because there's a 'need to know'. Partly because most of us would not grasp certain terminology, complexities, or work that supports what is known so far.
What is known so far is a separate point, as this article discusses:
https://gpm.nasa.gov/education/articles/whats-name-global-warming-vs-climate-change
While I understand needing to know, I think anyone pretending to know more than what has been presented by experts in their field of knowledge, is... a pretender?
I think expecting the average individual to discuss global climate change as if they are experts, is an unreasonable waste of time. I think the subject blog article is intended to evoke discussion about our opinions - what we think we know, and possibly to assess who and how many are paying how much attention.
I think expectations of definitive answers or explanations indicates misunderstanding of what science is: discovering and unraveling the unknown, and figuring out how. That takes time. And comparatively, few things are definitively known such that no more can be known, yes?
Along the way, mistakes or incomplete understandings invite misinformation that need untangling when that can be done.
I think enough is not yet understood about what might be effective with minimizing human impact, AND coping with inevitable global climate change.
What I am sure of, because I've personally witnessed considerable damages, is tailings ponds, fracking, inadequate waste management, oil spills, etcetera, created need for superfund sites that litter ground and waterways all over the earth. There are maps for each, should you want to find those.
How to measure that damage and overall impact on more than a personal level, is beyond most individuals. So, to state unequivocally that humans have no impact on global climate change, will be less than accurate. Likewise, saying humans are entirely responsible - and I have not found any scientist in any field that will state that absolutely when pressed - is also incorrect.
If you respond again with non sequiturs and ignore what I have asked or said, there will be no further response. I enjoy discussion, not so much being shot at with willful ignorance.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry Cathrine, but look at Kennys link. There is only ONE group in there that are climatologists. And using your logic you are now saying that the AMA is an expert on this myth? PUH-LEAZE.
So the only shame is on you as you STILL have not explained how the earth froze solid six times in its history and yet came back (and that is a VALID climate change) or how the earth became so cold that it snowed on july 4th down in the Rio Grand valley in 1813 or how NASA has proved that the more sunspots, the more active the sun is and the more heat it puts out and the opposite is true the less sunspots the less active and the less heat. And you do know that this according to NASA will be one of the most active decades for sunspots since they started measuring them, and that includes solar eruptions and flairs just like the one that hit the earth a few weeks ago that showed the Northern lights as far south as St Louis.
Still waiting for you to prove its man who is doing this and so far you have not.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
There is and never will be proving anything scientific to you DG, because you only believe fairy tales in your old book.
I suggest you stay out of discussions having anything to do with science entirely, because you always have ZERO to add, like you just did.
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Daniel Gray
Ok Kenny lets shut you down with your nonsense once and for all. Show me WHERE in the Bible it says ANYTHING about global warming as you try and imply.
I wont hold my breath as you have been proved wrong on each and every time you have tried to make such claims and used biased links instead of independent ones.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
The bible is your authority, not the world's.
That's the disconnect.
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Daniel Gray
yet again kenny, show where in the Bible it says anything about global warming. Stop trying to weasel you way out of this.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You aren't getting it DG.
Nobody cares what the bible says about global warming - and you're right, it says nothing about global warming - because the bible is NOT the infallible reference you imagine it is.
What exactly are you trying to prove here? You keep coming back with insults, vitriol, condescension, scorn, arrogance - and then you expect people to take you seriously.
Pro-tip - if you want people to listen to you, don't be an ogre.
Do you have anything that can actually be taken seriously to say, other than appeals to bronze age fairy tales? If so, put it below, and I'll answer it.
Just remember - you asked for it.
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Daniel Gray
again I have repeatedly asked you to show where in the bible it mentions global warming and you have refused to do so and yet you claim its there. Does not say much about your sources or claims now does it?
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Read my reply again.
Correction - just read it - you obviously neglected to the first time.
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Daniel Gray
I have over and over and you continue to imply that global warming is in the bible or are you going to try and deny this is you now?
Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson Aug 07, 2023 at 08:40 am There is and never will be proving anything scientific to you DG, because you only believe fairy tales in your old book.
SO you have just shoved your foot down your own throat. No wonder people dont listen to you, or at least the ones with sense dont
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Canadian Yankee
Are we talking about the God that supposedly drown the entire planet because some small evills were being done in the mediterainian area? Just imagine what that god will do to those who destroy his master piece for a few pieces of silver. I think he said the next time would be by fire, and we are on the way there now.
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David Buck
Yes, the climate is changing, it has been changing for millenia and will continue to do so whether we are here or not. I think it is ridiculous to think that we can have any real shot at stopping climate change, so we should be spending our time and resources in mitigation strategies. Also, here in New Zealand we are responsible for about 1/10th of 1 percent (or 0.01% if you prefer) of global emissions. If the entire country disappeared overnight, it would make no measurable difference in the rate of climate change. I think we are idiots to radically alter our manner of farming, and lifestyle to try and reduce that further when China and India are building hundreds of coal-fired power plants. They go forward, while we bankrupt ourselves and destroy our economies, sacrificed on the altar of the new religion of Climate Change. How stupid are we?
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Billy Heckstall
TAKE IS CHEAP It has always been a known fact, that prayer and faith, without action produces nothing!!! If God works through people? Then either God isn’t speaking, or people aren’t listening. I’ve often hear people talk about, what happened? Things use to be this way, or that. But, what they seems to always overlook, or forget. The truth is, it’s their turn to get active in this thing called life. The only thing that seems to have happened on this planet, is that the negative acting minority is dominating over the inactive majority. What this means is God’s people have gone to sleep. What’s needed is a revival of, and a renovation of, what it means to be sons and daughters of God. Singing in the choir, praying in church and shouting praises to the Father is not how Jesus handled these issues. Why. They might provide some momentary peace to an individual’s life or circumstances. That will rarely move a mountain without a bulldozer. Stop pretending you’re one of his disciples and fellow your Lord’s examples. Jesus! When he saw a wrong! Took action! Stop singing, stop praying in silence, and put songs, dance and prayer into Action!!! Physical presence, monetary funds, protesting and voting is God in action and a powerful example of Jesus disciples living his example. So… SAVE THE PLANET!!! BE JESUS IN ACTION!!! CARPE DIEM Means…NOW!!! God bless…
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Daniel Ginther
Anyone who believes that this is man-made is ignorant.....The sun heats the earth with more and less radioactive light at any given time. Any and all real scientists should be examining and researching on how we can better adapt to our current situation whatever that may be, mam made global warming is pseudoscience.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
This web site is a wealth of information.
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
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Daniel Gray
and even more people who say that Global warming is fake
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1112950/
and proof that the 97% claim of scientists confirming global warming is man made is nothing but bunk
https://www.forbes.com/sites/uhenergy/2016/12/14/fact-checking-the-97-consensus-on-anthropogenic-climate-change/?sh=2cb218dd1157
Even the world wildlife Fund says that the earths climate has change repeatedly over its history
The MYTH of scientific evidence proves manmade climate change https://www.wsj.com/articles/joseph-bast-and-roy-spencer-the-myth-of-the-climate-change-97-1401145980
https://apnews.com/article/fighting-climate-doom-d47f2ea47bc428656b7be1f48771b75d
And just remember that the pope of the church of global warming, one Al Gore; has repeatedly stated that there would be no polar ice caps by 2020 (and even NASA has said that there are larger deposits of ice now then before.) or that the polar bears would have went extinct (and yet the Canadian and Alaskan studies prove that not only are there more polar bears now then ever before, but there are so many that they are moving south and actually mating with Grizzlys creating a whole new species of bear
yet again you are proved wrong.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
People generally assume that science is self-evident and readily believable. People generally assume that they "know what real science looks like", and simply given the 'facts' will naturally arrive at the correct scientific conclusion. This is why it took modern humans 150,000 years to stop living in caves.
In reality, propaganda has some enormous advantages over science, primarily being that science has to convince people of something, based on evidence. Propaganda, on the other hand, doesn't have to convince anybody of anything. Propaganda only has to sell doubt. Propagandists know this. Propagandists do this most successfully by carefully selecting a few facts and then spinning them into the alternate reality they want people to live in (who, in the context of science, are most likely uneducated. In other words - easy pickings.).
Now I know I am never going to convince you of anything DG. I know there is no denting your forgone conclusions - your distrust of certain institutions. I have stated this before. I am only replying here because other people are reading this, and they too are most likely not scientists. You have posted what you have because you are presenting what you feel is strong evidence for your views. My reply, for the other readers, is to read your links again, keeping in mind what I have said above, and then to explore my link below with the same criteria. Don't just approach each as an information source - notice the differences in source, approach, delivery, and content of each link. Ask yourself not just WHAT you are reading, but also WHO wants you to believe what they are presenting, and WHY. I could do this, giving explanation and context for each link and each point - but people are either going to see it, or they aren't. At some point, people need to see for themselves.
Propagandists are selling lies, and they know this. The substance of science is evidence and facts. The substance of propaganda is trust and distrust. Trust is the con-man's stock-in-trade. Once the discussion is about trust, then it is no longer about the facts - once the discussion is about trust, then the best con-man wins - and that is how propaganda works.
https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/
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Daniel Gray
Only problem being kenny is you use bias claims made by deacons of the church of Global warming to promote your claims when the facts are clearly in evidence that you are wrong and are just ashamed that you were proved wrong yet again as it usually happens
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Daniel Gray
I guess Kenny you seemingly forgot what happens when you "ASSUME" anything. and all of this falls back directly on you.
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
No bias in your Forbes source? Pot meet kettle.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Not to mention the piece is an obvious propaganda hit job - but you can't tell some people anything they don't want to hear.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry you two, the links I mention actually have climatologists in them unlike any of the stuff you Kenny or you catherine post, Try again
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Blatantly WRONG DG.
So sorry, but that is an outright and absolute LIE.
Who do you think you are fooling???
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Daniel Gray
Clearly factual and correct Kenny and you would not be trying this hard to disprove them since they destroy you and your claims.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"...you would not be trying this hard to disprove them since they destroy you and your claims."
So if it was wrong, nobody would try to disprove it???
This explains why you think the article is "factual and correct".
And there are a lot of facts in the article - which the author uses to spin a LIE. It is blatant propaganda. It gives the impression that the case against man-made climate change is weak, which it is not - but of course to see why that is, you'd have to understand science.
But I get it - scientists have advanced educations from ivy league schools, Nobel prizes, fancy labs, supercomputers, satellites, multi-million dollar research grants, centuries of research data and a world community with which to check and improve each other's work, but you have your Forbes propaganda piece. And YouTube. And talk radio. And Fox News. What else are you to think? Clearly your hands are tied.
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Gene Schenck
You created this mess peoples I am not you janitor or maid or servant of any kind ask my father for help and I think you will get the same results kiss my @#@. Jesus
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Brien
Wow, just how ignorant are you? You spit out all kinds of useless info, then complain that we need to do something, then display all kinds of science that does nothing to fix anything. Do I agree with LH? Yes because LH thinks for himself. Even if we disagree on something, we can work it out because of things like common sense and mutual respect. You should try it, you might like it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Okay. I hear you.
Please elucidate for me the ways in which LH 'thinking for himself' is helping.
I'm sure you will have no trouble bringing numerous citations as proof.
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Brien
How are you helping? Hiding behind websites, rationalizing that if this group of science nerds says so, it must be true. Science is held for the highest bidder. If you got the money, you too can have science. Since you cannot think for yourself, or even see for yourself I can see no conversation in our future. Proof that LH helps? I will always have a discussion and share ideas with LH. Peace ✌️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I get it. You don't believe in science - even stating it on the internet, one of the crowning scientific achievements of the 20th century.
And they say irony is dead.
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Catherine
Snap and burn. I think, @Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson, trolls are clearly identifying themselves. At least our discussion efforts were not entirely unproductive : . )
Off topic, though trolls wrecked this discussion so that matters little... regarding the internets and if you are unfamiliar with 'Where Wizards Stay Up Late', you might find that is an interesting read.
It provides a backdrop for the beginnings of the internets - history I've not seen mentioned anywhere, which quietly asks 'why is that?'. It is so well written that despite the dry subject matter, it is equally entertaining and enlightening. I wish it had been less brief.
A more current adjunct is: 'Tor Talk Q&A' youtube video with Jacob Appelbaum and Roger Dingledine. Rather lengthy at 4 hours, though very informative. The gist is about how nothing connected to the internets is secure. And with certain - now common - technologies, not even when disconnected from the internets. For a variety of reasons, some of which are discussed at length.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VUyuFH9CbI
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ServantOfJudgement
Continued...
I think the great thinkers of the world either spiritual or not must have a decent filter if only to check their own work at the minimum. I'd think they'd have to also feel comfortable with using the work of others by critiquing it first. I also feel they see the world through a specific lense with side blinders or better said, they eliminate/avoid as many distractions as possible. In this they miss the life we experience in ordter to pursue their passion.
For my part in this world I've always been interested in the various sciences used to explain the workings of the world but not content with reading alone. I must do it if it's possible for me to do it.
I'm an electrical engineer and also a mechanical engineer. I specialize in automation. I program the equipment that builds our day to day niceties. Dish washers, mufflers, water faucets, compact discs, typing paper, toilet paper, sweet potato pies, door trim, vehicle dashboards, gears, refrigerators, and so on. I can and do design systems from scratch and build it myself or manage a team to do the same. I was trained by an old tool and die maker to use milling machines, lathes and everything you would need to build a robotic system from scratch.
I'm a professor that teaches electrical theory and computer programming at a local college. They're night classes that don't pay very much but I love meeting people so it's worth the effort. Students seem to love my style and my classrooms are always full.
I'm an amateur mycologist. I can grow any mushroom from spores or clone them from the field. The exception is the most glorious morel mushroom, at least for now. I'm working on that one. I've got 4 genetic samples in my fridge where the mycelium is starting to run through some damp cardboard. Wish me luck!
I'm an amateur botanist. I enjoy growing carnivorous and other interesting plants from around the world. I love teaching kids about these strange plants and they're thrilled to learn, as kids always are. I have a modest vegetable garden where I keep and maintain heirloom seeds from year to year. I also experiment with my own hybrids and have developed bean, zucchini and cucumber seeds that are reliably tolerant to northern Ohio winters. When nutritious plants seed themselves, over winter and become weeds next spring, you know you nailed it.
I've written a program to simulate the lighting and ground temperature of any latitude on the planet for any time of the day and year. I can also make time pass at any rate I please. I'll be able to grow anything I want from anywhere in the world in a future greenhouse. My goal is an automated greenhouse capable growing vegetables that ripen in their naturally preserved state, like dried beans. One day I'll get there.I raise my own livestock. My chickens are self replicating now. I have a nice system that I can protect a brooding hen from predators and other chickens. When I need more birds I pick a broody hen and let her do her thing. They are true free range and have as good a life as I can provide.
I'm a goat herder. You can laugh, most people do. I know it's a big favorite of many here. I chuckle every time someone here insults the authors of the bible. I'm like 'What the heck bro, I'm a goat herder'. I've created my own hybrid goat from three breeds. Took about 10 years. They are great milk producers, fairly meaty and are resistant to parasites and disease often found in warm humid climates like Ohio summers. They free range in the summer and I only need to feed them during winter months. They know my voice and call for me if they get into trouble. You can learn a lot about people by watching goats. I don't hunt, I feel no joy from killing animals. When I cull my own for the dinner table I do it with a heavy heart every time. I don't like it.I'm a licensed Ham radio operator. I feel it's important to be able to communicate with others across the globe. With the troubled times we're all facing this is becoming more and more important.
I'm a musician, song writer and poet. I've got a band that loves to rock. My music is pink floydish I'm told. Could be I guess, it's just fun to me. I played with a bass player from Japan a couple weeks ago. He was here in the states with his American wife visiting. Isn't it nice we've got a back-up language we all can speak and understand when all other channels fail?
Next page.....
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ServantOfJudgement
I think lastly I'm a bee keeper and have a small vineyard. I can get about 15-30 gallon of wine depending on the season. I make a mighty clean wine, no stems and I clean the grapes good. Our industrial farming methods make it hard to keep bees, I deal with colony collapse too often from pesticides. We use the honey for allergy medicine for the missus and kids and sweetener. Extra goes in for wine. I do like the idea of having 130,000 females working for me with very little pushback. They say bee stings are good against arthritis. Might be true, so far, so good.
I hope these things demonstrate that I'm an analytical person that employs scientific principles and practices them on a daily basis. My knowledge is deeper than book smart and I take it right to where the rubber meets the road, I live by it. Any opposition or favor to a theory or believe I have comes from a lifetime of data sifting where in the end I've made my conclusion. I can be wrong for sure. I also know I can be right for sure, as we all can be. I know getting me to change my conclusion can be a real chore, as I said, I don't like circling back. The longer it takes me to reach a conclusion the harder it is to get me to move from it. I think that's true for most people. Still, we all can change our minds if we really want truth, no matter how painful it might be.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Very interesting SOJ. You've been truly blessed, and you've worked hard, and you put a lot of effort and thought into everything you do. Very impressive. I have no problem with that. How could I? It is all to be envied, to be sure.
Our disagreements, however, circle back around to the same disagreements I have with numerous people on this blog, and that is what I've come to call the conservative mentality. Religious conservative, secular conservative, libertarian conservative, whatever shade of conservative you have, it makes no difference to the core mentality - and that is that certain people, for whatever reason, insist on putting the universe in a box. Their box.
Everybody has opinions, don't get me wrong. I have opinions too, my way of looking at things, derived no doubt through a process very similar to how you arrived at yours. The exact SUBSTANCE of our individual opinions isn't even the actual issue. The difference is that the conservative mentality passionately believes that what they think actually defines the universe - that their outlook is the "One True Reality", to which all other people are subject. They have put the universe, and everyone in it, into their box.
Now if you ask a conservative straight out if their views define the universe, they will deny it. This is the depth of their lack of self-awareness, because if you talk further with them, you will find they have VERY definite views of all aspects of people and existence, views which are unshakeable and apply to you too - your socioeconomic status, your sexuality, how you dress, how you talk, where you're from, if you are GASP! a sinner. Ask them if they want to control people they will deny it, then will brag about their assault rifle collection and vote to end abortion, to take rights from the LGBTQ+, and a host of restrictions on 'others'.
This is what they tell me. The conservative mentality is convinced it holds and owns reality, and anybody of a different opinion is just deluding themselves - and that's what makes them such a pain in the rear.
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ServantOfJudgement
Ok. I get it. I see what you've said about conservatives and I've seen it before we met. I have felt since then that truth is probably somewhere between the two usually. I see some of your points as valid and the conservative points invalid and visa versa. There are times that both sides are 100% correct even though they're opposite on the spectrum. The southern border is an excellent example of this. Both sides are correct. There are times both sides are 100% incorrect also.
Your words made it through the gauntlet. I'm going to pay closer attention to how I interact with opposing opinions. I appreciate your honest critique.
Stay safe.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I appreciate the maturity and equanimity of your reply.
Your reply, however, also brings up one more thing.
You might recall that in the past I recommended the book 'Right Moves' by Jason Stahl. I feel a partial quote from his 'Conclusion' chapter is topical here.
"As a way of debating policy, the marketplace of ideas model is now thoroughly entrenched. For all Americans, elite and otherwise, the idea that policy debates should center around questions of expertise, empiricism, and "workability" seems quaint. Instead, to the extent that Americans are concerned with policy and policy debates, they are concerned primarily with the question of the subjectivity of the participants involved - their biases and whether such biases are "balanced" in the debate."
In other words, arguments in the current political climate are far less concerned with the factuality of debate, and MUCH more concerned with "balanced" representation. Your reply alludes to as much.
If you want to know why he makes this statement, you will have to read the book. It is extensively researched and cited. The book can be found inexpensively, if you look around.
Given your own description of your background, I am led to believe that as a person given the responsibility of actually making things WORK, you have a profound appreciation for and understanding of the factuality of things. In engineering, you HAVE TO, or they don't work.
IMO, politics is no different - but as the above quote alludes to, the current thinking is that conservative and liberal views MUST both be equally considered simply because they are the prevailing views, regardless of the empiricism of either.
I humbly ask that you consider these thoughts.
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Alexander Arends
We are the stewards of the earth. Not sure about climate change but if we were to control it, it would be replaced by some other disaster or epidemic., natural or manmade. We should also recognize that if climate change is a serious issue the entire world has to be in agreement and work together in order to make an impact.
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Sherrell K Zitting
God is the doer of all things, climate or no, the politics and all of its issues, social issues, the pandemic, the economy, international relations, global religions, and all that is good or evil (Is: 45:7).
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Nicholas J Page
Climate change has been going on for decades here in Britain I can remember knee high deep snow Huge floods Heatwaves etc and I have been saying it's all man made how else can anyone explain.All the pollution that goes up must come down.In 1987 we had a hurricane which knocked out power uprooted trees and so on first time a hurricane for us and I had to make a short dash to a barn to get our coal frightening really.So if that's not global warming what is.Another thing people are dying across the world 🌍 whose to say the earth will carry on when mankind has gone.
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Catherine
@Rev. MichaelRS
The U.S. is second only to China in overall energy consumption, and places first worldwide in water consumption.
Some say that's because we have enough to waste. However, the U.S. is also one of the largest importers of water which kind of sounds like we really don't have water to waste.
As for climate change, is it really possible that a natural evolutionary process is not exacerbated by billions of people compared to millions long ago?
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Austin B Beamer
No matter how one of Faith wants to change the climate or other circumstances concerning the plight of today's world... Man's inability to heed the Word of Instruction from Gods Holy Word, and his sinful wickedness will ultimately determine the climate. And bring forth painful consequences to his lack of Knowledge. Creation will obey its Creator. And if Creation is told to operate according to Man's Righteousness or lack of.... Look Out Man!
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Geoffrey C. Olive
To all believers of any religion: Definition of faith = Belief WITHOUT evidence or proof.
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ServantOfJudgement
Geoffrey
That applies to all things such as self created life, self created universe and raising taxes helping the poor.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
SOJ - you forget that the preponderance of actual scientific evidence DOES support self-created life, a self created universe, and it's conservatives who believe lowering corporate taxes helps the poor.
Which do you want to discuss in detail?
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Give God some credit. He created this world, he'll end it his way. We aren't going to blow ourselves up by creating a nuclear Holocaust. We can do that without the blast. No. In most faiths he created it and he'll end it. Alpha & Omega, beginning and end.
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Geoffrey C. Olive
No! If you believe that you’ll believe any nonsense made up by other ignorant humans! Also, why do you refer to your god as “he”? What use is male sex anatomy without a female to a solo god that can create anything? That idea seems to be a creation of human male dominance over everything and females in particular! Religionists need to think carefully about the logic of their nonsense before expecting intelligent human beings to believe it! Better to be agnostic and say we don’t know than make up an illogical and nonsensical sky daddy! Why not just say “It”!
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
Why question what I believe and expect me to buy your ignorance . I don't believe that there is no universal truth or that the truth is whatever one wishes to make it. I believe mine and you can worship any corn cob you choose. My God is masculine and is expressed in that sense theologically in Judaism and Christianity. I believe that God is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient. He and I say He because that is His pronoun. He created Humanity in His Image. Male & female He created them. You can go on believing what you choose and I'll believe what I think is truly revealed. At least, I have enough respect to respect your corn cob. And I don't think it's better to be agnostic. I believe in faith.
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Catherine
Isn't it men who wrote words, many times translated, that say God made men in his image? Off topic, though I am interested in your opinion.
Regarding your comment: "I have enough respect to respect your corn cob." If someone said that to you about your faith (corn cob?), would you feel respected?
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Catherine
@Geoffrey C. Olive
Regarding your comments above, to a certain degree even children can discern what does or does not make sense between biblical writings and the physical world.
During a Sunday school class, a teacher asked each of us to explain our understanding of what she had just taught us about the immaculate conception. 'Immaculate' and 'conception' are big words for age 6-7. "How did Jesus come to us?", was all I understood about what she had been explaining.
So, I told her what my Grandmother told me about the birds and the bees. Boom. In the hallway, sitting by the door until Sunday school was over.
That is when I began questioning everything adults said. My Grandmother had 11 children and I had 40+ cousins. I knew my Grandmother knew how babies arrive in this world and the Sunday school teacher didn't.
Later, that thinking extended outward to wondering how anyone can disagree with what is so phyiscally obvious to everyone about babies.
Faith, I learned from caring for a horse that had been terribly abused. He taught me faith and patience, and much else, like no other life lesson could.
Now, if the Sunday school teacher had been able to relate to 6-7 year olds on their level, she might have been more successful. But no. The tendency is to push adult subject matter, expecting adult comprehension, on young children without sufficient life experience to grasp the nebulous and vague, further expecting children to learn by rote and regurgitate whatever garbage is stuffed between their ears.
And that is another conversation.
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Ealdormon Piparskeggr Robinson
An article I read today about an undersea volcanic eruption in the Pacific, which both NASA and the European Space Agency conclude will add to warming of the atmosphere. The climate will change, so long as the planet has an atmosphere. Is Man part of the cause, I think yes, as we are fouling our nest with trash and other pollution.
https://www.newsbreak.com/@joe-herring-1723008/3107191904075-nasa-unprecedented-underwater-volcanic-eruption-likely-responsible-for-current-heat-waves
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
So true. Also, I read the temperature on the earth will cause greater eruptions if mankind tries to cool the temperature through creating more cloud cover blocking out the sun. The temperature needs to stay at a certain temperature to balance the planet. Better to leave nature alone.
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Catherine
@Keith Allen Steele Eash
"Better to leave nature alone." If humans left nature alone:
1) Humans would be extinct through (self-imposed?) starvation. Obviously, if we weren't here that wouldn't matter. Since we are here, how do we thrive while leaving nature alone? How do humans exist without effecting change in nature?
2) If humans coexisted with nature long enough to thrive, would the human population have grown into billions, or naturally maintained a symbiotic balance?
3) If leaving nature alone seems an obvious solution to solve current human consumption and waste problems, why is anyone saying otherwise?
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James Riggle-Johnson
Short answer… I don’t think so. God is probably looking at us and thinking “WTF is wrong with them? I can’t wait to see how they fix this. I’m gettin some popcorn.” God isn’t going to fix the climate. The earth will correct itself even if it means destroying most of humanity to do it. It’s been here for 4.5 billion years, and the last 100 that has caused damage is a drop in the bucket. God helps those who help themselves.
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Daniel Gray
The short answer? no. This is cyclical (and yes I know some are going to say its man made but if that were the case then explain how the earth froze solid 6 times in its history according to ice cores and geological evidence and tree rings on petrified wood, or why even NASA is saying that all the planets are heating up and mankind is only on one that we know of) And even NASA has proved that when there are more sunspots there is more heat from the sun thus causing it to be hotter, the less sunspots the less heat causing it to be cooler https://www.weather.gov/fsd/sunspots
And even the so called Climate Change scientists (and less then 10% of these are actual climatologists) dont believe that climate change is man made https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1112950/ https://royalexaminer.com/the-hoax-of-climate-change/ https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/putting-the-con-in-consensus-not-only-is-there-no-97-per-cent-consensus-among-climate-scientists-many-misunderstand-core-issues
So all in all this is cyclical and all we can do is ride it out
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Daniel Ginther
Yep, even the long answer is no. The sun heats the earth more and less with radioactive light at any given time. Adapt and learn to live within it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You posted a dead link.
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Daniel Gray
nope the link is active, you just dont want to look as it destroys you
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I tried it again.
I remain undestroyed.
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Daniel Gray
no you ARE destroyed as you have been proved a liar
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1112950/ active link
https://royalexaminer.com/the-hoax-of-climate-change/ active link
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/putting-the-con-in-consensus-not-only-is-there-no-97-per-cent-consensus-among-climate-scientists-many-misunderstand-core-issues active link
So since all of them are active and you claim they are not that proves you never bothered to check and lied through your teeth claiming you did. And that destroys you as this proves that you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
You do know anyone can LOOK and SEE the links you just posted are DIFFERENT from the one you claim isn't dead, right?
Wow.
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Daniel Gray
Yes Kenny they can look and see that the links are the EXACT SAME ONES I posted earlier. Nice try to claim otherwise to show that you actually lied and never went to the three links OR you tried to open all of them at the same time.
So which is it kenny? you either didnt go to any of them like you claimed or you tried to open all at the same time which shows you have no idea what you are doing or talking about.
And just remember Kenny, you did this to yourself.
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Brien
Ok, just adding a bit more to think about. I believe that most agree the planet is changing. Where we part ways is assigning cause. I really hope to relieve some of the stress between us. First of all, pieces of what all of you offer are true. Let me try to string it together. Our planet is a living organism. Since life began on this world the planet has gone through cycles. Some of the natural cycles were benign, some were destructive. These cycles include universal cycles that we can't control. But all of these living cycles occurred beyond our control. Now, for the elephant in the room. ALL of the animals on this planet, (us included), have caused, and currently are doing damage to this world. All animals, everywhere. We are different in that we recognize our part of it and are trying to correct ourselves. But others of the animal kingdom do not. So, with or without our input, the planet cycle continues. We can't even predict the weather correctly, how are we going to predict the next cycle? Look, we all want clean air and blue skies. But we are at the mercy of nature, that every living thing participates in. We like to think that we are so much in control. The reality is we are a small ripple in this cycle. We don't know how long this cycle will last. We have NO CLUE how to control it. The best thing to do with our lives is to live well. We will either adapt to the changes, or we won't. But trying to assign blame does no good. Peace ✌️
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Catherine
Scientists from a wide variety of backgrounds and having varied religious denominations managed to work together, as did Tesla being Serbian Eastern Orthodox and Einstein being a self-described agnostic.
https://bigthink.com/words-of-wisdom/tesla-4/
"Science and Religion are Compatible. Science and Dogma are Not."
Words of wisdom from Nikola Tesla: "There is no conflict between the ideal of religion and the ideal of science, but science is opposed to theological dogmas because science is founded on fact."
My hope is that more of us become less rigid and, like scientists, open to respectful, objective, purposeful discussion, that does not require involving personal beliefs.
I think discussing religious expectations specific to global climate change without being on the same page with basic physical understandings, makes informed discussion difficult.
First this, because I read some confusing posts about climate change and global warming:
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/what-difference-between-global-warming-and-climate-change
“Global warming” refers to the rise in global temperatures due mainly to the increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. “Climate change” refers to the increasing changes in the measures of climate over a long period of time – including precipitation, temperature, and wind patterns."
And this, which explains in lay terms one aspect of global climate change that most of should be able to relate to:
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climate/understanding-arctic-polar-vortex
"When the polar vortex is especially strong, for example, the polar jet steam tends to stay farther north and to exhibit a more zonal flow, with less meandering. At the surface, this stable stratospheric state is often associated with an even colder than usual Arctic, and milder-than-usual weather in the mid-latitudes."
https://gpm.nasa.gov/education/articles/whats-name-global-warming-vs-climate-change
@Brien - Re: "We are different in that we recognize our part of it and are trying to correct ourselves. But others of the animal kingdom do not."
Do non-human animals drive or fly vehicles? Frack? Build oil rigs in delicately balanced seas?
I get that animals don't pick up their poop and do something with it. What is expected I can't imagine. Humans gather poop and send it elsewhere, without consideration of what happens when our collective poop arrives at its destination, be that in a body of water or land.
Something of an example: In Charles City County, Virginia, there was (is?) an active dump in the 1990s. Being an unusually poor county (at the time), an authority approved allowing another country to transport waste from overseas and dump it in CCC. There were running jokes about that authority who later realized he could not sell his own home to leave CCC. And righteously angry residents who were similarly trapped unless they could afford to live elsewhere after abandoning their home (an additional cost).
Yet, Charles City County is magically not on the NPL.
People who have not yet learned about criteria that must be met for the EPA to determine a superfund site, then look up superfund sitemaps, will likely be shocked.
It doesn't help to be overwhelmed or depressed, both of which invite apathy and resignation.
What does help is each of us improving our space and place in the world. Developing habits to consume less. Doing more with what we already have. Focusing on multi-functionality. Choosing function over aesthetics more often than not.
If enough of us do not come to this or a similar conclusion, we might as well wear blinders and blissfully hope for the best.
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Brien
For someone with so much to say, you have a very narrow view point. Animals, ALL animals including the human animal are consumers. The consumptions are different, but the results are the same. A species consumes too much, runs out of material, then dies off in it's environment. Sorry, but that is the simple explanation. I am sorry it does not agree with whatever voodoo beliefs you may follow. You may believe whatever makes you feel better. I for one will NEVER mix science and religion. If I see a doctor, I am reallying on the doctors science, not their belief. If they cannot seperate one from the other, I find another doctor. Organized religious beliefs are faith in the make believe. No matter how much YOU may believe, to me it is nonsense. Now that is MY belief. I am not asking you to believe it. Just like I do not believe in yours. Peace ✌️
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Catherine
@Brien
What is my narrow viewpoint?
Are you suggesting humans simply do nothing about our consumption habits, because humans are animals and can do nothing about our habits?
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Brien
I am sorry, this is a quick addendum. I left out the whole god thing. Since it is my belief that the notion of a magical supreme being is nothing more than a man made construct, I do not believe that man is smart enough to attempt any kind of control over a natural cycle on a planetary scale. Question asked and answered. Peace ✌️
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Catherine
@Brien
I subscribe to no faith, and wondering if you have confused someone else's comments with mine. Neither have I suggested humans control natural cycles.
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Jennifer Gallozzi
Spot on ! Who would believe a crisis led by the likes of Carey( no science degree),Gates no degree and Notably Moderna a newer Co. Got its first vax out by Emergency use status.. shoots junk in the atmosphere to combat warming.. ,Soros off thinks HE'S God .manipulating currencies and buying elections worldwide, funding riots , burning down of cities ..The authoritarian Scwab and the WEF.. DID I forget Teen Greta.. Who would follow This team of evil? BTW studies show our carbon footprint is less than prehistoric, pre human days. Look up video of No Science degree Carey getting schooled at climate change judiciary hearing.... God's in charge....clean up your own stuff.
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Veronica Deevers
This will explain everything https://justthinking.me/ep-124-a-biblical-theology-of-climate-change/
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John R Liming
2 Peter, Chapter 3, Verse 10 -- "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
If God says it, then believe it.
The people of the world do not have to be worrying about what can be done about climate change ...climate change is only the beginning of sorrows for a corrupted world. What is needed is NOT fixes for climate change but a great world-wide revival and return to God.
Nothing else will do and nothing else will work.
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Daniel Ginther
Straight from Gods mouth, nothing more to be said !
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Nicholas John Stricker
Funny how the elite make excuses about why they want you to comply about global warming while they fly polluting planes to "end" this problem.....our planet has always had temperature fluctuations.....China and India need to clean up their pollution which effects our planet.....better management of our resources would help immensely....
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Deborah Lynn Strafuss
You know, this Earth we live on is a precious gift. It is full of healing herbs and plants, tied together and interconnected in magnificent and mysterious ways we are still learning about today, a jewel in space and a very unique and unusual place as far as we have yet encountered in our search for other livable planets. Our layer of atmosphere is but a hairline thin blue line when seen from space - yet it is the reason we are protected loved and alive on a planet thriving with life.
Whether you agree with global warming or feel we are going to hell in a handbasket and "God" will make it all right - here - just imagine you have a lovely home, beautifully decorated, and you go away and leave it in the hands of your children for a few years while you travel - having raised them and taught them you now trust them with this responsibility. When you return, you find your home a wreck. It has not been cared for, it has been misused and neglected and is in a very sorry, unlivable state. As a matter of fact, you will have to raze the interior completely, repair structural and mechanical damage, re-roof and redecorate. Are you happy? How will you treat your children - forgive them with no repercussion or consequences? Let them care for your home again? How could your children have prevented this terrible state of loss between them and their parents? Very simply, by taking care of what they were given to watch over. There is a parable about that in the bible - a very powerful one. We were definitely not charged to go out and plunder the earth because it's okay, god will make it all better....
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Lester Stanley Petrie
Remember what the old country parson said. "It's fine to pray, but someone (we) has to swing the hammer ". We need to take heed!
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Tobias Martin Ruiz
According to Genesis 2, man was FORMED, not created, and on the seventh day which God commanded that no work be done on. That being said it's obvious since God himself rested on the seventh day, that man was a formation which required no effort or it would be considered work. Everything else that lives, INCLUDING the planet (earth) itself is a creation of God. Who are we to say it's okay to destroy God's creations?
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Henrietta L Johnson
We as Beleivers and Occupants of this earth, have a responsibility to care for it as if it personally belongs to us. Would you allow the House you live in to fall apart with you in it or do you get the necessary repairs done to maintain it? Whether you believe in GOD or not, you still have to live on this Earth until you die.
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Warren Calvin Wall
I have to say that a great many people are equating climate change with the environmental damage being done. Climate change is a natural cycle. We are still exiting a global glaciation period. Of course the planet is warming. The amount of garbage and poisonous chemicals that we are dumping on the planet is what is damaging our environment. The amount of crap going into the oceans are obscene. The amount of chemicals dumped on the land and poisoning our water supplies is obscene. Industrial farming methods are obscene. We don't research on reducing carbon dioxide emissions. We need research, a LOT of research, on waste disposal! Recycling obviously isn't working. Recycling has simply become a cash cow scam. Almost 90% of the materials submitted for recycling is dumped instead of being recycled. We have technology to do damn near anything we want except taking out the garbage.
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Susan A MacDonald
I am Native American and I believe it's both nature and a manmade crisis. If we do take care of this earth, it's elements and the inhabitants just who will? We cannot simply stand back and do nothing to help, to repair damage and to try and save this world for the future of those who come after us...we should honor what we have been given and take care of it...
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P. Keith Benefiel
You can"believe in " climate change or not, but you WILL have to live through it.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
But that's just it. Most people here will not live through it - or at least the most horrific effects.
They "believe" it's just a 'natural fluctuation' that has nothing to do with people and won't be a big deal anyway.
This is how they can look their grandchildren in the eyes and brag about every way they've denied climate change and obstructed doing anything productive about it.
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Lionheart
You’ve been reading too much from CNN. I bet you think Biden and Harris are doing a spectacular job of controlling the border 🤭
🦁❤️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Guess what the real distraction is LH.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/28/trump-right-wing-distraction/
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Lionheart
Try convincing those living along the southern border states that are having to deal with Biden's open border policies. I think you'll find the Hunter vs Trump media stories are way down the list of what is a real distraction.
🦁♥️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Thanks anyway LH, but if I want to watch Fox News, I'll turn on Fox News.
So sad to see from a person who prides himself on rationality and pragmatism.
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Lionheart
No problem, Kenneth. Obviously you think the borders are being safely taken care of, and presumably you are under the impression our illegal immigrant problem is no worse under Biden’s administration, right? What news media do you listen to?
Do you seriously see your thought structure as rational and pragmatic? Just asking for someone I know that was raped by an illegal immigrant.
🦁❤️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Save it LH. If your bubble is impenetrable, that's fine, but don't pretend it's the universe, like the religious do.
https://www.npr.org/2018/05/02/607652253/studies-say-illegal-immigration-does-not-increase-violent-crime
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Lionheart
In my book, Kenneth, one violent crime by an illegal immigrant is one crime too many, and should never have happened, so that article is absolutely preposterous in its analogy, but then again...thats NPR....right?
Say no more, I now know where you are getting your thought structure from.
🦁♥️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Just as exactly as stated in the article cited.
So you agree with it - or you don't? You can't have it both ways - or can you?
And as far as where I'm getting my "thought structure" from - we can discuss that some day - when you are less inclined to desperately seek points to win your "thought structure" argument.
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Lionheart
Did you read what I said? One violent crime by an illegal immigrant is one crime too many, and should never have happened. The same goes for 1000 violent crimes by illegal immigrants, especially if they involved death of US citizens.
Do you seriously have a problem with my logic and reason?
🦁❤️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
I heard you, and that is specious prattle.
You are treading seriously close to making a straw man fallacy. Everyone condemns crime - but the thing is whenever a conservative talks about personal responsibility, it's always someone else's.
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Catherine
@Lionheart
Our borders are not the problem or the topic.
Is it ratioal to think the actions of one person represents all others?
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Brien
Let me know if you get thru. I will have a drink in your honor. peace ✌️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Another right-wing media consumer I see.
Well Brien, what the right-wing media won't tell you is that conservatives have 3 ways of solving problems:
1) Kill it.
2) Pretend it's not there.
3) if 1 or 2 don't work, then blame someone else for the failure of 1 and 2.
Despite the constant racist rhetoric on Fox News and other propaganda outlets, it's still illegal to blatantly kill immigrants and asylum seekers, so #1 is out (though conservative gun policies are having a lot of success killing Americans).
With that, Trump decided to try #2, by doing everything he could to be brutal and unseeing towards the actual problems.
https://reason.com/2021/01/20/trumps-immigration-policy-was-brutal-and-inhumane-will-biden-fix-it/
As we all know, Republicans in congress, Judges, and even the Supreme Court have done everything they can to block Biden's solutions.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/title-42-end-biden-border-congress-inaction-immigration-reform-rcna82948
Did I get through to you? It's okay - you can have that drink anyway.
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Lionheart
Biden has solutions? Please get back with me when they have plugged the gaps in the wall, and the illegal immigrant invasion, along with the Fentanyl trade, has been resolved, or at least brought down to the post Biden/Harris era.
All drinks are on me, Brien and Kenneth 🥃🍷🍺🍸
🦁♥️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Good point! HOW are we to ever know what Biden's solutions are when Republicans in Congress zealously block them at every opportunity???
Unless we look - but of course that would be pretty drastic. Who would ever think of that? That's just straight crazy talk.
rolleyes
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Lionheart
Republicans have always insisted on building a wall, and never blocked it. Where are you getting your left-wing propaganda from?
Drinks are still on me. 🤗
🦁❤️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Yes, building a wall - that'll solve everything. All those children, families, asylum seekers from central America - let them suffer and die.
It's not your problem, is it. If you just ignore these people, they will just disappear! Because that's what homeless, desperate, starving people always do. It's just POOF! and they're gone! It's MAGIC!
Except they don't. Republicans always like to ignore whoever they don't want to deal with - ex-cons, the homeless, the mentally ill, the disenfranchised, the dispossessed - they ignore them, and then are clueless when crime becomes everyone's problem.
Yes, drink up LH! The world is a hellscape, but there's a party at your house, and that's all conservatives give a lick about.
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Lionheart
There’s a process for all those who are genuinely fleeing war torn countries feeling for their lives.
That process is being hampered by the hundreds of thousands we let in, and keep sending back, due to the poor policies of this administration letting them in. Those are the ones that should never have been let in, in the first place. I’m sorry you don’t see this logic, Kenneth.
Too much drink? 🤔
🦁❤️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Pull your head out of the right-wing propaganda echo chamber.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2023/08/13/fareed-take-us-immigration-border-crisis-biden-gps-vpx.cnn
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Lionheart
When members here make statements like you just made it becomes very clear that they are losing their ability to think in an intelligent and intellectual way.
Fareed plainly made very similar statements to myself. The immigration system is broken, and has been for a long time. Biden clearly is unable to fix it, and in fact, it has got much worse during his administration, which sadly, hasn't ended yet.
Obama tried fixing it, but to no avail. Trump tried by building a wall to keep illegal immigrants out, but didn't have time to finish it, which Biden refused to finish. Go figure! This administration will ultimately have allowed more illegal immigrants into this country than any other administration in US history.
Most, if not all, are playing the game of saying they are asylum seekers, which clearly isn't the case, evidenced by the hundreds of thousands this administration keeps flying back to their own countries of origin.......when they can find them.
By them storming the border, and gaining entry illegally, it clearly doesn't help those who are genuinely seeking help as "real asylum seekers". I do hope you can see that, Kenneth. Not only that, but they are also causing those who are also wishing to enter this country legally, from being able to do so, by following due process, due to the terrible burden illegals are placing on our Homeland Security System that we have in place.
I'm so sorry you struggle with seeing this logic due to your lack of understanding as a result of your myopic prejudicial views.
I don't intend to feed your lack of understanding any further, as there is clearly no way of getting though to you, so this will be my last post to you on this topic. I genuinely wish you well in trying to apply logic, reason, and critical thought to help you make intelligent decisions about life, without being vitriolic due to having a lack of understanding, knowledge, and intellect. 🤗
🦁♥️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"I genuinely wish you well in trying to apply logic, reason, and critical thought to help you make intelligent decisions about life, without being vitriolic due to having a lack of understanding, knowledge, and intellect. 🤗"
And they say irony is dead.
The Fox News faithful kneel daily at the altar of right-wing propaganda and just like you leave frothing at the mouth over "Biden's incompetence!" - just as designed.
Trump shut the door on immigration for 4 years, then said "Look what the Democrats did!", and the Fox News faithful all raged at how "suddenly" the system is so backed up!!! How could the Democrats let this happen???
It really angers conservatives - which makes it one of Fox News' greatest hits. Isn't it funny how Gov. Abbott can afford to fly immigrants to Washington, but can't afford to let them pick strawberries? How does that work?
The Republican leadership knows that angry voters vote, and that is why they will NEVER allow Biden or any Democrat to fix immigration. It's too valuable just as it is - it's too much fun hamstringing Congress then point at the President, and the rubes LOVE it! The Republican leadership wants you to know that illegal immigrants are coming for your children, that transexuals are coming for your children, that woke groomers are coming for your children - and that's why you need to vote Republican. And you do.
They tell you "Don't let them tell you what to think!" - and then they tell you what to think.
So you go on lecturing everybody about their lack of understanding, knowledge, and intellect as you are eagerly led by the nose by right-wing propaganda and dehumanize half of humanity. I see it's all the 'rage' these days.
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Steven Wayne Anderson
Total fires and acres consumed is actually dropping worldwide.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Site your source.
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Brien
Do you own a tv? The news shows the fires all the time. You get to see video pictures 😀. Do you think you can try it? Now, here is the hard part... try using a little common sense with it. Peace ✌️
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
"News from the fires"... So you are saying the 'proof' of declining fires is... all the news about fires...?
Makes perfect sense.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/23/world/wildfire-increase-climate-change-unep-report/index.html
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Catherine
Ed Murrow and Voice of America comes to mind. How government turned an effective, professional, and talented investigative journalist into its mouthpiece.
Isn't it odd that all these topics devolve into political discussions?
After studying voting records and, for a time, being involved with black box voting issues, I learned the left and the right use each other's platforms to work against most of the rest of us. Even the middle or independents, eventually side with on or the other to push what the highest paid lobbyists can make happen.
I've given up on left, right, and independent. I don't think any of the parties are what they propose to be. More a means to someone's grand plan. Pft.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
It is true that money and politics are inseparable. It's true that our system is highly flawed - but I think Jan. 6 said it all about who's side people are on.
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ServantOfJudgement
Probably because of climbing change, that usually causes every good and bad. The holes in my socks? Climbing Change. Need a haircut? Climbing Change. Bitter cucumbers? Yep, climbing change. Too many mosquitos? Climbing Change. Mosquito population down? Climbing Change. That mole on your back? Mmmhhmmm climbing change. It plugs into everything and all the kids are doing it. Climbing Change, it's what's for supper.
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
How does being flip further purpposeful discussion?
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ServantOfJudgement
Catherine Just having fun with it. So far according to climbing change experts, I should have died about 25 times so far, 2wice from giant 2 mile tall glaciers and the rest from various doomsday deadlines. The profits of doom want their carbon bucks. Bill Gates is carbon zero ya know. Yep, he can burn 25,000 lbs of jet fuel one way to a Climbing Change conference, par the carbon bucks and burn it again on his way home. John Kerry too. If it's not a sham, it's turned into one.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
All standard right-wing propaganda.
Here's something else for you to ignore:
https://www.opr.ca.gov/facts/list-of-scientific-organizations.html
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Catherine
@Daniel Gray
How is a list of scientific organizations any kind of propaganda? Are you trolling? Or have nothing valid to share?
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Daniel Gray
yea right, just as I thought even more LEFT wing propaganda. You do know that nobody can trust anything from the Gov office in California right? so one has to wonder why you even bothered to post such tripe.
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth,
It's not propaganda if I personally experience what I say. I personally read about our coming ice age in the late 70's. I personally became afraid for our future. I watched TV shows on it back then. I was really worried. It changed to global warming with the same doomsday predictions that came and went. Now it's climate change with the same doomsday predictions that come and go. I'm not repeating propaganda, I'm reporting my observations.
Please understand my angle here. Was the science right in 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's 10's or are they right in the 20's? I've gone down this road long enough to recognize we've got a lost tour guide on our hands. The story of the little boy crying wolf and the street preacher screaming the end is near both come to mind.
Bottom line is if we address the treatment of our planet in areas that can't be disputed and data can't be massaged we will make progress to a healthy earth. Stop dumping plastics in the ocean, find a way to eliminate land fills(there is a way), stop dealing with nations that pollute as a policy, eliminate consumerism... somehow, etc
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
When has "God" ever helped humanity? Psalm 94:1 O Lord, God of vengeance, O God of vengeance, shine forth! God is vain, jealous and vengeful. Not helpful or loving. Remember how he slept through WWII, when his "chosen" people were being murdered by the millions?
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ServantOfJudgement
What happened to the German Leader, military and civilian population? Did the war end nicely for them? I read they were obliterated in totality. God is jealous for us, vengeance is his. Vain? Hardly, don't confuse him for humans, were the ones that drink up vanity.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
Did that bring back the approximately 80 million dead from the war?
Your loving God sure has a strange justice.
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Catherine
An almighty, loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, etcetera, God. Such a God would be fine with me. It is humans who bastardize the most useful religious writings and turn God into a monster reflecting the worst human characteristics.
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ServantOfJudgement
Funny you put it that way Kenneth. That's exactly what God calls it. Judgement is Strange Work to God. I doubt you read that in the bible but maybe. Perhaps it's true what the Bible says, that we all know God's law in our hearts, most ignore it, some hate it. Innocent people always lose when they put maniacs in charge. Sorry but that's life. Look now towards Ukraine. Look who's in charge of all these countries itching to fight. You and I have put leaders in a position to destroy us. You and I. 80 million will look like chump change.
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Kenneth Lafe Eric Sanderson
SOJ - Honestly, I don't know what to say to you anymore.
You seem to read everything with a powerful perceptual filter. You remark on what rings a bell with you, such as the above about "God's law", but for the most part you just ignore the concrete, factual, innately definitive information I put before you. You seem to see the world with an unconditional "Do I already agree with this or not?" decision making process.
Let me ask you this SOJ: Do you think that's how Einstein looked at the world? Feinman? Dirac? Schrodinger? People of genius who made literal quantum leaps in our understanding of the universe - or do you see any value in that at all?
Because the truth is the reason we can even have this discussion is because of people like them - people who didn't pre-judge what is truth and how the universe works - people who LOOKED and SAW. People who through their genius have opened up the world to the world, transcending time and space in a very real way.
You seem really hung up on telling everybody else what God thinks - what everybody else should think. Why is that? Do you think you are saving the world? Because you're right, bad times are coming - but it's not for the reason you think. It's not because people won't listen to you. On the contrary, it's because too many people also think the universe is made up of their own private prejudices and fears, which they in turn borrowed from words written thousands of years ago.
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ServantOfJudgement
Kenneth,
I'm sorry that I'm frustrating, it's not my goal. This could be long, I'm hoping it'll be worth it. With the God talk, when others bring up God or the bible, I feel at liberty to speak about him. Most articles here are centered around God and Christianity. Almost all here regularly insult God, Jesus, the bible those who believe and specifically me when talking to me. I'm insulted with a variety of terms, names and phrases as a normal and in a gang fashion at times. I try to remain polite through this but never silent. I'm ok with someone not believing in God or not believing that God and Man wrote the bible. I'm not ok with someone saying the Bible says something it doesn't or not saying something it does. I will correct that every time I see it, especially in such a hostile environment. If this were a small engine repair forum or whatever, you'd hear zero God talk from me.
You're spot on, I do indeed have an extremely fine meshed information filter. I call it my firewall. I've been lead down many rabbit holes in my time by plenty of people that emitted extreme confidence in their information only to find out we've been going the wrong way the whole time. I'll entertain that sort of thing a few times but I've got a limit before nothing they say gets in through the door. It's not directly towards you specifically, it just runs in the background nowadays. I don't like circling back to the same place too often but I will if new data profoundly grabs my attention. With my career, I must be this way. I do listen to your words, I do think about what you say.
Before I continue, let me tell a story I think you'll enjoy. Back in the day I owned an automation company for a couple decades. I hired a sales guy that was/is gay, not because he was gay, I just thought he'd be easy to work with, which he was. We'd travel to different companies across the country together when he'd get a hit for a potential customer. I'm a clean cut but very rugged guy. Once or twice a year I'll camp in the woods for 4 days or so with 2 blankets a bottle of whiskey, easy food and a fire, no tent. Rain, shine or snow I live as if I'm homeless. Anyway, the two of us were sharing a hotel room in Chicago for a trade show. I give my missus a call to see how she was when kyle starts whacking me with a pillow. So I did what comes naturally for me. I gently set the phone down, Mrs SOJ is listening, she knows my sales guy is gay. I grab a pillow and defend myself against this gay guy whacking me with a pillow. And we fought and we fought, with the pillows. Mrs SOJ is listening. We finally declared a truce. Can you imagine the explaining and fancy footwork I had to put Mrs SOJ through to let her know I still dig chicks!? Lol, that's one of my favorite memories, I never shall forget Kyle for as long as I can still remember, he and our extremely violent but gentle gay pillow fight. He moved to California, I hope he's still ok.
Now back to the show..
Once this post is approved I'll finish my reply...
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Catherine
@ServantOfJudgement
Do you really think, believe, know... that it is us who puts aggressors in charge? A lot of us are not even paying attention. Another lot of us hopes someone else knows best and votes their way, even though voting is next to worthless now. Did you know our voting machines are made in another country? And the programming for those is done by yet another country. Have you followed money and investments by Vanguard and Blackrock?
Economic survival dictated by the uber wealthy, is what and who decides our presidents, their cabinets, and really most else. If you follow voting records and actions of congressional parties across decades, what becomes clear is next to none of them is working for 'us'.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/congress
And the few who attempt to, don't last. Cynthia McKinney is a prime example.
Did you know there are scientific studies about the commonalities between criminals and high profile business and political figures? What separates them, is a sociopathic knack for persuasion and not getting caught.
Now, it could be said that the rest of us who are less aggressive deserve what we get. Or, we can manage up through how we spend money and lifestyle changes.
I think the most aggressive among us would not so easily control this world if the rest of us looked out for ourselves instead of expecting someone else to do that. And that is where religious and social conditioning is so useful to divide us, lead us, and keep us dependent to keep us feeling so helpless there seems to be no other option.
The 'us you refer to could no doubt be more proactive. However, most of us are good people who have no interest in running the world. Collectively, I think most of us are tired, worn, and even traumatized from a long-imposed inappropriate and imbalanced consumerism lifestyle that only works for - again - the uber wealthy who are essentially infighting. We are their cannon fodder.
The only way to break that up is by managing up. Make them herd cats. Don't follow where they lead. Be our best selves and don't cave to their pressures. If enough of us did that alone, politicians, lawmakers, and the uber wealthy would have to try SO much harder to put us and keep us in uncomfortable boxes.
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Keith Allen Steele Eash
I will no longer comment since this group likes to censor free speech . Basically, anti Christian.
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ServantOfJudgement
Keith,
Reconsider. There is some censorship but it looks legit. I ran a several trial posts with various words and phrases to explore what exactly gets censored. It's fairly predictable. Sorry to put the moderators through my trials but nowadays it's good to know how to phrase good thoughts in a way they'll make it through.
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Minster Najah Tamargo USA
Indigenous peoples believe that WE ARE ALL stewards of the Earth. And I agree. This is a man-made situation, so it will take all of mankind to fix it. Prayers never hurt, but it will take more than that to rectify the situation.