Editor's note: This article was updated to cover the meeting between Pope Francis and Kim Davis, as well as the contrary statements from Davis's attorneys and the Vatican about the nature of the meeting.
Click HERE to read more updates on Kim's audience with the Pope.
Many same sex couples nationwide are finally enjoying the perks that come with being married after the Supreme Court struck down state bans against it as being unconstitutional. However, there have been some bumps on the road. Perhaps no story has been followed as closely as that of Kim Davis, the Kentucky county clerk that barred anyone in her office from issuing marriage licenses to same sex couples despite her being directly ordered to do so as part of her job. Davis was jailed after being held in contempt of court, and was released soon after. She is currently the darling of the far-right, being visited by presidential hopefuls Mike Huckabee and Ted Cruz and toted as a symbol of religious persecution.
Davis's attorneys have made a statement that she had a meeting with Pope Francis during his historic visit to the states to address Congress. As the news unfolds, it appears as though Davis and her legal team were dishonest and the events are rather controversial, as is Davis's story as a whole.
Why Hasn't She Been Fired?
Kim Davis stopped issuing marriage licenses to gay couples, which is one of the duties of her job. Normally, refusing to perform your job duties would be grounds to be let go, but elected officials like Davis cannot be fired. She can be impeached, but the chances of that happening are quite slim, especially given the political environment in that state.
The only way it seems that Davis can avoid additional jail time without agreeing to issue a marriage license is to resign from her position. She no longer is willing to issue marriage licenses to same sex or heterosexual couples because she doesn't want to be accused of discrimination, although she only infringes on her fellow staff members. It seems that the only type of win for Davis would be a stalemate, in which she does not have to violate her religious beliefs by issuing marriage licenses, but does not have to return in jail. At this point in time, it seems that the only way for that to happen would be for her to resign from her position as county clerk.
Davis was released soon after her attorney filed an appeal to get her out of jail. This is not the first appeal he has filed on her behalf. Back when she was originally ordered to issue marriage licenses, her attorney filed for an appeal, however it was denied. If this appeal is passed, then she will not have to stay in jail, but that does not mean that there will be a resolution to the case. Davis seems that she isn't going to budge anytime soon, and it is almost a certainty that the courts aren't going to let her defy the law. This is something that could continue for a long period of time.
Religious Freedom and Job Duties
Expression of religion and job duties usually do not go hand in hand unless you work at a church. Most of us have jobs where we cannot, in our official capacities, start expressing our beliefs. A customer service manager at Target can't answer questions about products by saying that Mormonism is the one true faith. You can't have a Jewish waiter refuse to serve patrons pork and also refuse to let them sit in another waiter's section. A Muslim woman is currently making headlines saying that she was suspended from her job as an airline attendant for refusing to serve alcohol.
In all these instances, people still have their religious freedom. They are not being barred from attending their places of worship, reading holy texts, or thinking a certain way. The issue arises when they believe that religious freedom is a pass to do whatever, even if it is at the expense of the freedoms of others, as was the case with Davis.
"Having Kim Davis in federal custody removes all doubt of the criminalization of Christianity in our country," said well known Christian Mike Huckabee while not in jail. The presidential hopeful has been putting Davis forward as a champion of his idea of religious freedom. Kim Davis isn't a champion of religious freedom, she is one of its biggest foes. She was not jailed for practicing her faith, she was jailed for forcing it on everyone in her county.
The Authenticity of Her Convictions**
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To claim your religious convictions are so strong that you are willing to break the law before violating them is quite bold, and could be rather admirable if there was reason to think there was any truth to it.
Was Davis refusing to issue marriage licenses to couples who were living together before they were married, or to those who drank a lot? How about barring convicted sex offenders from the necessary paperwork? Of course not. The Bible says that sin is sin so it's not the case that gay marriage is somehow any worse than these other issues. She had no problems dolling out licenses to any heterosexual adulterers that walked through her doors.
In fact, Kim "I'm living by my convictions" Davis has dragged the Biblical notions of marriage through the mud with her own veritable collection of past husbands. She divorced her 1st husband while pregnant with twins fathered by a man that would later become her 3rd husband but not before she convinced the 2nd husband to adopt them, and he is now raising them as her 4th husband. You almost need a flowchart to track her transgressions of the very same "God's Law" that informs her moral judgement of gay couples.
This sends a terrible message about her faith and our hearts go out to many that share her beliefs but refrain from forcing those beliefs on others. Her religion teaches that one should look within and be most concerned with one's own adherence to precepts of faith. Kim Davis has chosen to bastardize her beliefs by doing the exact opposite.
Audience with the Pope
Updated 10/7/2015
Davis's legal team broke the news that she was in audience to the Pope during his visit in late September. The visit seemed to confuse many people. Let's be clear, the Pope is not a fan of same-sex marriage, though it seemed uncharacteristic of him to lend such direct support to Davis. While the two agree that marriage should be between a man and a woman, Davis takes a negative tone in denying others their legal rights while Pope Francis is famous for taking a position of compassionate disagreement, saying "who am I to judge?"
The announcement was portrayed as though Pope Francis was well aware of who Davis was, and that he singled her out to bless her in her specific endeavor. For a while, it appeared like a nail in the coffin of the hopes of tolerant Catholics (who make up about 60% of total congregants in the church) and atheists that wanted a more socially conscious pontiff instead of more focus by the church on hellfire and brimstone.
In a rare move, the Vatican issued a statement on the meeting, seeming to realize that people were believing it to be a political statement on the part of the Pope that the pontiff did not actually make. A spokesperson stressed that the brief meeting between Davis and Pope Francis should not be considered a show of support for her position.
"Such brief greetings occur on all papal visits and are due to the Pope's characteristic kindness and availability. The only real audience granted by the Pope at the Nunciature was with one of his former students and his family," said Rev. Federico Lombardi.
The Pope did not enter into the details of the situation regarding Davis, which is exactly the opposite message that Davis herself fed to CNN, saying the Pope was "on track with what we're doing." What's more the New York Times reports that the Archbishop who arranged the Pope's meeting with Davis is "likely to be removed at the respectable opportunity" if blowback from the debacle continues.
Interestingly enough, the former student mentioned above that received the only private meeting with the Pope on his visit was Yayo Grassi and his partner, Iwan. The gay couple was greeted with hugs and blessings. Grassi told CNN, "obviously he is the pastor the Church, and he has to follow the Church's teachings, but as a human being he understands all kinds of situations, and he is open to all kinds of people, including those with different sexual characteristics."
Davis and her camp are now in the awkward position of either having to admit to lying and roping a religious figurehead into their personal drama, or call the Pope and the Vatican liars. Of course, they could just ignore the Vatican's clarification of the actual happenings of the meeting like Davis ignores the rule of law here in the states and her job duties while getting paid at work. It certainly would be of her character.
171 comments
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RLD II
I really am appalled to see the response made by Mary about homosexuals "homo's" as she called them. Comparing them to Isis. This is not only ridiculous it is moronic. This is the danger of the Internet and blogs you - get mean spirited and uneducated comments from those who say they live with Christ in their heart but teach and promote hate and bigotry - certainly not a Christian value. We don't have to agree with the way another person lives; providing their experiences are between consenting adults and are law abiding, but in our country we have the right to live our lives as we see fit and we should defend that right with everything we have in us. You, Mary, are certainly entitled to your opinions but I pity your limited thinking and feel sorry for you as you are missing so much by having such limited views on life and people.
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M
you know, i don't care, i am appalled at the anticked of the homos, and i think if they don't like it then they can stop being that way. i am not here in this live to appease stupid people who just want to have all their evil little ways coddled and have my rights walked all over by them. And they are insane to think that people should be coddling them. that is just wrong thinking and all of you who don't see that are just as wrong.
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Tom
you know, mary, I don't care. I am appalled at the antics of the bigots, and I think if they don't like it then they can stop being that way. I am not here in this life to appease stupid people who just want to have all their evil little ways coddled and have my equal rights as a gay citizen walked all over by them. And they are insane to think that people should be coddling them and their fragile religious beliefs. That is just wrong thinking and since you don't see that, mary, you are just wrong.
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Pastor Pete
Well said brother, unfortunately getting into an argument with one of these guys is like playing chess with a chicken, they just defecate all over the board and think they've won anyway. Thanks for the first proper laugh I've had so far, God bless
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James Pace
Last I checked the constitution gave us the right to practice any religion we choose but it also stressed a separation of church and state...
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Rev. Denise
Kim knew when she became a notary what the rules and regulations included. If she became a "christian" after the fact she should have stepped down from her position knowing that her beliefs would interfere with her oath of office.
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Rev. Donna
If Kim Davis were a person of God, she would treat others as she would want to be treated. Jesus said "All are welcome." Having a superiority attitude & thinking you have authority to dismiss another just because you hold a different belief is completely misguided. God made the gay people too. No group of people is superior to another & all are equally precious to God. I often wonder how people can call themselves 'christian' when they choose to judge & discriminate. It seems counter intuitive.
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M
you know what, if men can have harems and God approved because it was at least a heterosexual bonding, then she can have a harem of men, and if the constitutions has to be broken and hast to be rebuild to accommodate for the whiners who have a mental disease like the homosexuals who should go and become extinct like their life style affords them then she should have the right to as many husbands as she wishes, and more power to her. at least it is not a sick ness. like the mental illnesses of the homosexuals. and further more don't tell me about hate, because just because somebody disapproves of some behavior does not mean it is because of hate, if anybody hate it is the homosexuals. that is why they are homosexuals because they hate the opposite sex. they don't want to have anything to do with them so they twist things around in their heads to justify why they should not be with them. so then they couple with the same sex, that is disgusting. and so unnatural. it is a choice to be a homosexual and if they don't want to be discriminated against they should not be a homosexual then. it is quite frankly that simple. you don't want somebody to disapprove of something you are doing that you choose to do then stop doing it. how hard is that concept.
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Pastor Pete
Nonsense! You people cling to the Bible as a means to justify your own intolerance and ignorance, homosexuality is not an illness, wake up! May you Iive to see the dawn.
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Pastor Pete
And by the way, if gay people "hate the opposite sex", somebody should telly adoptive uncle who has been my mother's best friend for the last forty years or so, she was his best "man" at his wedding, and guess what? I officiated, which was the reason I became ordained, I love my uncle very much, when my Dad passed he was a rock for my Mum, and he displays all the characteristics I find admirable, he is loving, tolerant, kind, brave, honest, and I find it inconceivable that something as footling as what people choose to do in bed is an issue. The Lord is my shepherd, and headed beloved uncle gay, and all the other things he is. I a heterosexual grandfather by the way, and I worry souch that the world is turning away from love and tolerance.
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B. D. Reagan
So, in a nutshell, the "Christians" are looking to something other than faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, frequently expressing the notion that reconciliation to God comes through some sort of behavioral characteristic or conformity to some rule set & end up practicing a sort of Jihadist Christian style in conversation with one another ... itself a direct disobedience of some advice new testament writers give about proper conduct — call it Chrislam. Others whose focus is more on the spirit or intent seem concerned with people harmed by this yet wish to express respect for individuals' disagreements, hoping, I suppose, that such agreement to tolerantly disagree leaves room for everyone to live freely & enjoy free verbal expression. Yet, leaning toward a Christian perspective, I think people should do whatever they think is right, seeking God's counsel in such things, accepting the fact that we all sin, that the law serves only to point out that fact. If she were obeying God's commandments, Kim would not be an adulteress (OT style), nor (NT style) would she be a hater, showing failure to act with love towards her family & what has become a harem of husbands. Doubtless her life would be made easier if they just shacked up; oh, did I say that? While she's off making every effort to restrict the freedoms of others to live & find God freely as He calls them, adding a special brand of misery to their lives I suspect her husbands understand & ignores her own family & responsibilities, one can only imagine that the underlying intent of her behavior is to add more men to her marrying material pond by removing the pond gay people fish. That way, she might hook one that can make her even richer than her right wing admirers — I know, that'd be a stretch! But seriously, if our deeds could save us, why would Jesus bother to do all that? So, considering the advice someone who heard Jesus shared, we should pray for our enemies. It probably wouldn't hurt to seek God for understanding so we can be better witnesses of Him in the world as well. Recall, it wasn't the rich or politically popular road He took, nor was it a consortium with rich, right wing Republicans he sought as if to milk them. So, if she finds (to paraphrase a minister I recently heard) she has no wolves in her life, now, perhaps she's not really a sheep? It may be true that some Christians feel bastardized, feel that God left them out because they don't experience this conflict within which always seems to result in growth & change (like me), but history suggests that with time I find out why, that I am being disciplined, just unaware of it. God disciplines those he loves; to one day feel that anything is just too OK is itself a scary thing, as if one doesn't matter anymore. Oh, well, just had to say something, hope someone finds some value in it!
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léa
Sorry to all who believe the bible is the perfect word of God; it was written and rewritten many times and has many contradictions. what i am certain of is that God love us ALL no matter what.
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Ted Prettyman
Everyone wants their "15 minutes of fame." Now Kim has hers. If she decides that the performance of her duties is in conflict with her faith, then she is free to change jobs.
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Dubya
I enjoyed reading all your posts.
I tithe to secular charities, build houses for humanity, work at the community center, big brother, soup lines, you name it, I did it. I'm kind and love all mankind; I just don't believe in a god. My psychologist says, "Some people just can't believe, don't worry about it." Is that ok? Can we understand that some people just can't believe in a spirit?
I joined Universal Life Church because I thought; this is free thinking and that the Universal Life Church would provide that for me. BIG MISTAKE! I understand all of your assertions but WOW! I feel like MY beliefs are wrong.
Why can't women be ordained in certain church's? Because of people like Kim Davis!
Here is what I believe; Paul and Jesus were great men. They started out a little aggressive and broke the law however, something enlightened them, be kind and charitable to all mankind.
Mary Magdalen was a whore for goodness sakes and ordained in her own right. A Great Woman! That's OK right?
There is no doubt in my mind Christianity would not be what it is today without Paul. However, he never met Jesus and he was a heterosexual male who hated women and the fact that he was molested as a child. He also hated the fact that the Kings had obsequies catamites. That's why he discriminates against Gays, Women, and anything else that was not to his liking. (Romans)
All of this was a long time ago people, move forward and be kind to everyone. No matter their beliefs.
Side Note: You are all much more brave on a site where you type than you would be in person. That's ok too.
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M
you do not know what you are talking about, Mary Magdaia was not a whore by choice, she was possessed, that possession and the men who provided the means for her to being a whore, and most likely the reason why, as the way men were back then they either raped her or tricked her as they did with the woman who they tried to have stoned, the truth is that men were and are whores too. more so them men, and if they can be ordained women can be too. men are the ones who demeaned Mary, Jesus had many women disciples such as Mary m and his own mother ans sisters. as well as Martha and many other women. further more Paul was a homosexual and he hated women that is why he demeaned them so much. but Jesus told him that if he wanted to enter into the kingdom of heaven he must forsake his desires and not practice his homosexuality. as you said he was molested and that molestation caused him to become homosexual, and that will continue the hatred of women and men, but in his case the continue hatred to women which will spurred more homosexuality. the more homosexuals practice their acts they more it encourages more homosexuality. The truth is, homosexuality is a mental illness and the homosexuals don't want to admit to it and refuse to accept it because of the nature of their mental illness, but us rational people, if there are many of us left are supposed to know better. Since when is it okay for any society to listen to mentally ill people to let them make decisions in the society. truth is we are not supposed to be, that's when.
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Pastor Pete
Mary, just to make myself abundantly clear, I don't believe in mysticism, walk in spirits, reincarnation, table rapping, homeopathy or the easter bunny. Sorry you find me ignorant, I think your problem is that actually I'm pretty well informed. Ignorant is your word for me. Fair enough. Here are mine for you. Gullible, undereducated, arrogant bigot. The God that you took from a printed book go with you, this conversation is over.
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M
That is more the abundantly clear, and that is where you miss the boat and why you are so ignorant. I it is more that apparent that since Jesus was an Essene that he incorporated metaphysics into his teachings and if you studied more then you have and you claim to be as educated as you say you want people to believe you are, that you are not if you have not studied the metaphysical studies, as well as the biblical antithetical sides of Jesus's teachings.
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M
that is too bad as you will never understand, i am not the uneducated person, here is just how educated i am now can you live with your ignorance. http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation/jesus/melchizedek.html
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Pastor Pete
Top stuff Wayne, well said
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Chaplain Mark Rice
Jesus taught me not to be hateful, prejudice, mean or uncaring. Love and tolerance was His teaching. It's probably not much different in any path truly seeking divine enlightenment. Again, judgement is the Father's job, It's not St. Paul's or your friendly neighborhood minister's or the local county clerk's responsibility to pass judgement and I for one am not about to tell the great I AM how to do His job. But then again, what do I know, I'm just a Chaplain.... I pray that His light will shine on all those with darkness in their heart's, regardless of their chosen path. Humanity has so, so far to go before they get there.
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M
Jesus never said anything about tolerance. But Even though Jesus did teach love, that is only it if is not taken advantaged of, as all you whinny cry babies out their want to have happen, Jesus had his path, we have ours and his path led him to extinction, and unless Christians want to become extinct too, we have to adapt from that path to a defensive path, as their is a war going on between good and evil and if good is ever going to win, we cant remain passive.
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Pastor Pete
So to be a real Christian, don't follow Christ? Because I refer you to the shortest verse in the Bible...
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M
of course Christians follow Christ, but Christ said that if you find something offensive that is on you, But Christ never said anything about tolerating sinners. He said to love others, but that is not nec. defined of as tolerating.you can love other with out loving what they do.
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Pastor Pete
Tolerance is one of the most important Christian virtues Mary, I'm amazed that you don't know that. And as far as being crybabies goes, once agIn I refer you to the shortest verse in the Bible
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Pastor Pete
Mary, please read this carefully. I am an English person living in England. I am a historian and archaeologist. Christianity arrived in this country in the year 597 with Saint Augustine, at the request of Pope Gregory to convert the English, who up to that time had been pagan. Your sources are wrong, anybody can write whatever they want, it is simply not true. I regularly visit Canterbury Cathedral, the birthplace of Christianity in England, have you ever been here? Do your own research dear lady, or eventually your have to go and hang out with the flat earth guys. Please think about it. Please
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M
I know this might come as a shock to you too, but if you studied that website you too would find that your colleague would have a difference of opinion from you, He has his sources also. I suggest you seek him out further and take it up with him, as far as my views, I also go by the the Rosicrucian AMORC and the Essene groups say and they also confirms that Jesus also lived ln the UK, there are also other sources which states that too. I know that based on what I have learned from the professor at that site, and the Rosicrucian's and a Buddhist Monk by the name of T. Lobsang Rompa, who had written many books, who saw the Christ's name on their roster as being in some of the monasteries and doing some studying at the monasteries, so you are not going to convince me unless you can get all my sources to change what they have to us, their students. Do I need to resend you that information. Here are some more sources. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/8380511.stm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erd2NIrzW4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kCWY3YdyCk http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ-great-britain.html
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Pastor Pete
Lo sang Rampa was revealed to be a fraud, need I go on? You have your beliefs Mary, and you are welcome to them, no matter how badly researched or thought out. Enough now, God bless
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M
Pastor Pete, Practice what you preach, this is supposed to be a country where people accept diversity and tolerance, right, that is what you all are trying to say, well, that acceptance works two ways, if you want others to practice diversity and tolerance, you have to be acceptable to others ideas like me and mine, also. So before you preach to me about diversity and tolerance, try asking your self you you are not showing that to me, i have the right to see things as i see them, as my truths are. and your guys rights ends where mine begin. so I sugest you stop being a hypocrite and being prejudice and intolerance toward people who have the
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Pastor Pete
Mary, forgive me, but I am tolerating your views, I am not at any point referring to your beliefs as such, this is a matter solely for you. However, you are taking factual inaccuracies for truth, you are using derogatory terms for gay people, and frankly I find the majority of your views indefensible. This is a forum for debate, I respect your point of view to the extent that I would die to defend your right to say whatever you like, but surely in this case you must be able to defend your views? I'm sorry you find me to be hypocritical, I am merely a searcher of the truth, God bless you Mary
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M
Pete, Lansang Rampa was never a fraud. You don't know what you are talking about.
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M
you don't know what you are talking about with regards to Lobsang Rompa, and my research is not invalid, or not not well researched, esp the stuff from the AMORC, they research really well everything, I think your stuff is not well researched, I gave you several links that all said the same thing, and from different places, so how is that not being well researched, you don't know what you are talking about.
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Pastor Pete
T Lobsang Rampa was the pen name of Cyril Hoskin, a plumber from Devon, who claimed to be possessed by the soul of a Tibetan monk. As I said, we will never agree, peace now sister, you go your way, I will go mine. God bless
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M
peter, i am familiar with the situation, he was not possessed, he was a walk in, he was t Lobsang Rompa form birth, he was in the war, tortured to badly that his body was not viable any longer and he still did not fulfill his mission so the guy who would had killed himself got an absolved from the karma to let Lobsang have his body and he left, that is not a possession. a possession is where the old soul is still in the body and another being and not usually takes over also. not the same,this guy, Cyril's body had by modified by the cosmic to match the old body of Lobsang's like same scars, ect. now a possession would not do that, Lobsang was not a pen name it was the soul's identity. and that is the one who had all those experiences both before and after the walk in. that does not make him a fraud he did not claim to be somebody else, you just dont understand the life of mysticism. maybe if you did you would not be saying such ignorant things.
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William Sheldon
I'm a little surprised by the ferocity of this discussion. Read the sermon of seven virtues. This is not an exclusively Christian Church. Kim Davis is one more reminder of intolerance and politicians who exploit it for personal gain and sadly we will see a lot of her in the upcoming election. That's political gamesmanship and not our message. Promote good will and spiritual practices. This comment board exposes the lack of understanding of this church by many, but I'm only responsible for my own actions and beliefs. If this s an example f what I have joined, it may be time for me to exit. Look at all the religions represented on our letter head and documents. Single religion zealous judgements are simply out of place here. No one owns exclusive access to God and no one sane has the can claim possession of God's view.
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Dubya
Thank you William! I was a little confused myself as I read down the list of posts.
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Daryl Porn
Amen William
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Vincent Bernhard
Ms. Davis' position comes from a place of hatred and not a sacred place. If you want to speak of Biblical law, it is perfectly clear that Ms. Davis is an adulteress. The need for separation of church and state is only highlighted by Ms. Davis' regrettable actions. We must pray for her and for those who misinterpret scripture, and do so from a place of hatred.
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M
Rev, Bernhard, I have to call BS on you as it is not true that people who have a difference of opinion towards another automatically means it is because of hate. in fact it has been my expectance that if anybody operates out of hate it is the homosexual community. As since being homosexual is a choice, they choose to be homosexuals because they do not like and infact hate the way that the opposite sex treated their sex which you can hear even by talking to them. it has been my experience that heterosexuals that disapprove of homosexuals is because of their disapproval and their blatant disrespect for moral laws that the homosexuals have displayed and their rejection of the bible and God's laws which most of them out right refuse to want to accept, many even hate God because they know that God will disapprove and they don't like that, so instead of them wanting to change their disgusting was, they want to force us and God to accept them, which is wrong. God and God's laws are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, and it always will be. they have a mental condition and continuing to caudal them does not help them evolve, and does society no good as it brings down societies moral structures.
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Dr. David
She needs to demonstrate her faith and her oath of office by resigning.
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Arthur Cook
It has already been said that she was part of a group of invited people who all met ,as a group, with the Pope. She did not get a Private Meeting.
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M
If the pope turns around after he got back to Rome and denied that he met with her then he is a liar.
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A druid
The fact remains that in her Oath of Office she pledged to perform her duties faithfully "...so help me God." In not doing so she broke faith with God himself, directly. Just sayin'.
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M
the rules changed on her, you do not change the rules in the middle of a war for example and decide that you are not going to take prisoners of war half ways through the war and they will all be murdered and if you don't go along with it then you will also be held accountable that is just not right, and she should not have to suffer for doing the right thing, just because a few stupid humans don't want to do what is right according to God's rules, They are the ones that count after all. The supreme Court Judges are not going to be exulted in God's eyes, and they sure would not be able to vouch for anybody to be exalted on their behalf for "doing their Job, when the laws are wrong and changed".
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Diane
Most of the people that I work with friends and family members would be fired for insubordination for not preforming required job duties. If she is so committed to her beliefs then she should resign from her job and let it be known why she has to resign.
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Pasto Wes
Bravo to Kim for her strong beliefs - Thumbs down to her for not doing her job - if she can't do ir according to the law then she should resign.
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M
It is not right to change the laws midstream on people like for example tell them before they start working a job, that they wont have to worry about working on their Sabbath, and then turn around down the road and tell them that they have to know work on their Sabbath, that is not right to expect that from people, or to have a C.O. go in to combat saying they wont have to fight, in the war and kill anybody, then later when they get shipped over seas tell them they have to or they will be locked up in the brig. The job was not the same as when she started or accepted it, and she should not be penalized for it's change, esp. since the law was not based on our constitution like our religious freedoms are. Atheists have the same rights in this country as Christian do but Atheists want to do things that they want special rights for, that is not right. In fact most Christians don't have the rights they want because of the Atheist, and it is not right that they should take away our rights to have Christmases and Halloween celebrations, without them being taken away from us, we can't say the pledge to the flag, or say the national atham, anymore for God sakes I mean, just what rights do Christians who want to do these things have over the rights of the Atheist are trying to take these things away, then the hypocrites want to turn around an take advantages of the holiday sales opportunities. How hypocritical is that, don't tell me about rights, the rights of the Atheists end where ours begin, and they are treding on our rights, no body is forcing them to go to Christmas parties, or to go to church, so stop whinnying and leave Christians alone, if they don't like something like Christmas then just go hibernate until New Years. If they don't like something, if they want to live in sin go do it, and leave the rest of us alone, it doesn't stop them from doing what they want except getting married, but unless you are saying all Atheists are homosexuals then I would say to you if they want something like that then they need to conform to what everybody else that has those things have and do if they want it too. That is just as retarded of an idea as the hoods have who lived in the last place I lived where they thought if somebody had something that the rest in the neighborhood did not have and it appeared to be in great quantities because somebody was going to open up a business, well they thought that gave them a right to steal it from the person who had so much, but it doesn't, if somebody has something you want you don't steal if from them like the homosexuals are doing, you go out and conform or earn . No body is forcing homosexuals to be homos after all, if they want to have the right to get married, then change there mind frame and their perspectives and live as a heterosexual and then they can get married and have a family.
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Minister Rob
Why would a Christian have more rights in this country than an atheist, agnostic, Taoist, Wiccan, Druid, Buddhist, Hindu, Creationist, etc.? Many people follow something other than the Christian bible. Many people follow something other than an Abrahamic religion. They may even be religious. They may not be. Davis violated the rights of people like this. Is this what her alleged Jesus taught? If she wants to offer guidance to people that she feels are screwing up, couldn't she do that on her own time, and/or in a different position?
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Kathy
What was said between Pope Francis and Ms. Davis is not important, She is just another person needing her 15 minutes of fame. I really don't care to acknowledge her in any way. I am more concerned with the real issues in the world, like starving children in the united states, I am interested in the depression/economic problems that we are facing in this country, I am concern that our children are under educated.
Whether Ms. Davis accepts homosexuality, who cares? I am a minister, who is a lesbian, who is also married to a woman! I love my wife of ten years. We support one another, we both work, we both pray, we both are accepted by God and Jesus Christ. So if she does not want to hand out a piece of paper, oh well, she does not stop us, she does not control us, she does not decide my fate in any way. If people were really true to their bibles, then they would have figured out by now that we are all connected and related, Further more they would also understand that only God will judge us, not those on earth. If you can keep those two things in mind, then ignorant people don't stand a chance.
This world has more serious issues than Ms. Davis. I just wish we could focus on the real issues of life and stop making the rights of humans and issue. Everyone, every human on earth should have the chance to the same freedoms and rights as anyone. We all deserve to be happy during our short stay on earth.
God Bless.
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Allen Alexander
I think she should either do her job or resign. But to the matter of her meeting with Pope Francis, I believe he was lied to by the cardinal of New York! from what I've read, Pope Francis was unclear of who she was and he had many 'ten minute meetings' and she was just one of many.
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Brenda
First, my understanding is the meeting was set up by a Cardinal who doesn't like this Pope. The Pope met with many people and he did not seek Mrs. Davis out. AS for Mrs. Davis, defender of "straight" marriage, who has been married more than once, she has violated her sworn oath and duty to uphold the Constitution. The Supreme Court has ruled that marriage rights are right that our homosexual brethren have a Constitutional right to share in. This is exactly why we have and need to continue to maintain separation of Church and State.
If Mrs. Davis cannot do the job she swore to do, she should be removed from office. If the Pope spoke to her I would wager he reminded her of the teachings mentioned before, "Grant unto Caesar (government) what is his and grant unto God what is his". That is pretty clear cut, in my humble opinion.-
Daryl Porn
What does grant to Caesar have anything to do with this subject
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Brother Tim
Sorry Mike you have to believe that way, we still love you and god loves you even if you do not love yourself.
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ritacanada
Feelings of Love are always welcoming….Our licensing of each state and in every state are different…Religions are also so many and always running against each other…so the issues are always different depending on who your speaking with! If a law goes into effect and you do not agree with it….you need to resign from it. If you are not capable of doing your job as the law reads you need to speak with your supervisor and express this…so you both can resolve the issue before it becomes a problem for the whole. Follow your heart…even though you may loose your position to the whole of where you are…. You may need to move on and bow out gracefully! My personal knowledge has been….and always will be….marriage is a contract between two people….connecting them in unity together for life. In this country it is very easy to get a divorce….which used to be shunned upon and not allowed by any religion….why is this now common practice?
Does the Bible tell you so? I bet all Christianity, now tells you this is ok!!!!
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Robert T Butler
It boils down to a simple truth a verse given to us in the Bible Leviticus to be straight up about it if you read through we are plainly TOLD a man shall not lay with a man as he would his wife and vise versa the biggest problem with the whole country is a lot of folks spend to much time watching ball games, playing video games and bar hopping. Remember : BIBLE Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. Politically corrected ness has nothing to do with it nor does changing times . Let's admit it flat out Bible based, moral right and wrong is the whole thing. When you stop and think about it a minute is that not actually the truth?
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Robert M. Stepuch
One should read "Mark Chapter 12, Verse 14 thru 17"
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Rick
i trust you dont eat shellfish or cut your hair, dont wear mixed fabric clothes or partake in any other biblically equivolent abomination because Leviticus tells us straight up not to do any of that crap either
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Dark Gray
"we are plainly TOLD a man shall not lay with a man as he would his wife and vise versa"
No, I don't believe the "vice versa" is ever mentioned. Can you point out to me where in the Bible that lesbianism is specifically condemned?
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M
The vica verss doesn't matter, as if it is not acceptable for men, it is equally not acceptable for women.
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Daryl Porn
There has been many verses that states a man should not lay with a man or nether should two women. The verses has been given on this discussion many times. Wake up before you end up in hell.
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Dark Gray
Sooo . . . you can't, then?
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Scott M
And if we believe the bible is on par with Mother Goose, shall Jack sprat eat no fat? Shall we not ring around the posies because we may all fall down. Are we forced to believe a book written in the middle east? None of it written until many centuries after it actually happened. Translated numerous times by MEN, etc, etc... Are the christians ready to live by the Koran, many believe it is true. If you believe in the bible, great, don't apply it to me. Freedom of religion does not equal forced christanity.
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Laura Hansen
I believe Kim got to see the Pope because who ever is managing all her press got her in li Even! Nothing more! Ans she was told to be strong because the Pope would not say .... " Hey, Stupid, Kim you are a Moron!
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Laura Hansen
Hansen L.
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Tammy
She lied and its been proven. Why her preacher, church, congregation and community hasn't said or done anything is baffling. Im just sick of hearing about her. Since when does one persons beliefs matter more then everyone elses.
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Rune Moonstone
This is getting way more atention than it deserves. But it is just my opinion. There are so many issues with our society that need attention. Lets focus on those like the starving, the homeless in our own back yard. I challenge you all to focus on being kind to all, not just a choosen few. Blessed Be.
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Dark Gray
Hear hear! This is a post I completely agree with!
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Valerie Ward
First of all, it was not a one on one meeting as Ms Davis claims. There were many people in attendance who received the same 'stay strong' message. The woman is not a Catholic so other than for her own personal agenda, the gathering was meaningless. The woman is an elected official and has regulations to follow. If she is unable to do that for any reason, then she needs to resign her position. The woman has enjoyed her 15 minutes of fame, including a stay in jail (that might have been on her bucket list) and this all needs to just be gone. She certainly can practice her belief in whatever fashion suits her. It's just not OK to push that belief onto others. Life is always changing. If this is something that this woman is unable to adapt to, she simply needs to take a step or two back into her imposed box and life pass her by. Rev. Dr. Valerie Ward.
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Jack Flood
According to the Vatican spokesman, Kim Davis was in a line, she did not actually speak to the Pope. Therefore, any assertion that they conversed is simply a lie, nothing less.
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Paul Rooney
"Forgive them, for they no not what they do". This is a good way to keep from judging anyone, because it gives them the opportunity to grow and be enlightened in there own time and on there own path. This is also a way each of us can contribute to peace and getting along with each other, by understanding that we are all different and tolerant of each other. This is the first step of love...
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Michael Z Archangel
Too much Blah Blah Blah! "Do not the two meet on the road only by appointment?." The whole world is a stage. Everything is orchestrated to amuse and control the unaware masses.Also,if a blind person asks to be led by another blind person will they not BOTH fall into the same pit?. Call no man your Leader.Call no man your Teacher.Pray to Jehovah your God.He will send His holy spirit to teach you.God is not partial.Does not take bribes.And absolutely NEVER will He ever turn you away if you call too Him in sincerity and in spirit of Love and Truth.
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Thomas Mastromatto
Bullshit move on Pope`s part....Church and State....Gays should not be treated this way...Do your job or find a new one
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Ashamed to be a Kentucky Resident
She is a lier. She was in a room full of people and the Pope did not know who she was or what she had done. She needs to resign or be criminally charged for dereliction of duty. Of course the attorney general in Kentucky can't be bothered because he is being derelict in his duty because he is running for governor. I'm a Christian but firmly believe in the constitutional provisions of separation of church and state. If your job duties offend your Christian beliefs resign and shut up.
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Pamela
She is not fulfilling the responsibilities she accepted, she should be removed. There is a lot more pain and separation of our race because of her.
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williamone1234
the marriage rights, the gays were given , they justice's Over reached!! God, nowhere in Bible says anything about okaying marriage of same sex!! It is wrong!! It is flat out wrong. And, if that offends you , take it up with God! It is that simple!!
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Bev Lowden
Ive been very encouraged by this Pope and I can honestly say that I was very disappointed that he even met with her. I am a former educator and we governed by.... "We are not allowed to express our political views to our students." The law has changed and whether we/she likes it or not, she needs to follow the law or seek employment elsewhere.
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david, bickel
stepping down is the thing to do, but she has also changed legal documents and is liable to be punishment!
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Shen
For my part, I say leave the judgement of mankind to God. I am not qualified to pass judgement on my fellow man, I can only live my life and make my choices as guided my own heart and mind. From the Pope, to Kim Davis and all the way down to the lowest of the low, each shall be someday judged and found either worthy or wanting based upon how they conducted themselves in this world. I am at peace with that, and content to leave each person to choose and to make such choices as best they can for themselves and not for anyone else. Kim Davis is fully within her rights to not participate in a same sex wedding herself, but she does not have the right to dictate to anyone else what they shall do.
Be kind to each other, choose love, kindness and understanding and the rest will follow.
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Jay Bee Monroe
This was a very unfortunate postscript to a very moving, inspirational visit by the pope. The archbishop or Vatican ambassador who arranged the meeting between the pope and this Hater, is obviously a right wing bigot and essentially set the pope up. What a shame. The. Homilys in St. Patrick's and Philadelphia were from the heart, inclusive and life changing for this non-Catholic. I won't let this unfortunate incident mar that beauty.
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Anne Dular Lawson
She should resign. She is no martyr. That $80,000 annual salary is why she hasn't resigned. I feel she is nothing but a hypocrite, accepting tax payments from LGBT couples isn't repugnant to her or in violation of her religious beliefs. I am sick to death of having the state I reside in now being known for this!
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Ed
I commend Ms. Davis for holding fast to her beliefs.
I CANNOT, however, condone her ACTIONS. Certainly she has, and hopefully will continue to have, the right to worship as she chooses and to believe what she chooses to believe.
I refuse to recognize her law firm as Christians. They have shown nothing but hate and intolerance, and have not demonstrated one shred of Christian belief or love. They have led Ms. Davis along a rocky, destructive path that I truly believe she will grow to regret, over time.
While she is free to worship as she chooses and free to believe as she chooses, this does not give her the legal or moral authority to force her beliefs on others, including her deputies. By refusing to allow any of the deputies to issue marriage licenses "in her name" she is forcing them, and all the taxpaying public of Rowan County, to follow her religious beliefs or seek assistance elsewhere, possibly at significant personal expense. The taxpayers are already paying her and her office for certain functions and should not be required to go elsewhere for that. I understand that they are issuing licenses, but they have been illegally altered and the validity of these licenses can be questioned.
As with any job, if one cannot perform the duties for which one is being paid, for personal or religious reasons, then the honorable and moral response is clear. Resign and seek employment elsewhere.
For her and her lawyers to insist that this is about religious freedom, when it is clearly not, is ridiculous and self serving.For them, and others on the far right, to scream that Kim Davis is being persecuted for her religious beliefs is ludicrous. The more her lawyers want to refuse religious freedom to others in the name of their religious freedom, the louder they scream about being persecuted when they are the ones doing the persecution. This is not religious freedom. It is bigotry, clear and simple.
I believe that Kim's god loves her and wants her to do the right thing. I also believe that she is not listening to her god, but rather to something/someone else and hopefully she will find her way back to love and do the right thing eventually.
She must live her life the way she sees fit. And she should allow others that same grace and freedom.
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Larry J Eastin
She should be arrested and jailed for violating the civil rights of others.
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Scott M
I can respect anyone's religious beliefs, as long as they get shoved into my life. If she doesn't want to sign the licenses, just step aside, I could respect that. She forces her religious beliefs upon those who do not hold the same beliefs, including other clerks in the same office who do think same sex marriage is a gift from God. Why do others get to use their religion to moderate my life experiences and beliefs. Isn't this why we left England, because we wanted freedom to choose what religion we believe in and what we don't? The US hold religious freedom as a fundamental right as long as it's right-winged Christianity.
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REV. TOM SCHMIDLE
I THINK THIS WOMAN SHOULD BE KICKED OUT OF OFFICE. YES SHE HAS A RIGHT TO THINK WHAT SHE WANTS BUT NOT IN HER OFFICE TO STOP ANYONE FROM MARRYING. THANK YOU FOR THE CHANCE TO SPEEK OUT ABOUT THIS. REV. TOM
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Rev Close
She is doing it for the publicity. And the money which will flow from well wishers. She saw her chance and she took it. This has nothing to do with God's words. She has condemned herself just as all condemn themselves who seek to selectively hear, then twist and impose "God's " laws. May God have mercy upon kim, who i suspect, is guilty of nothing more than being weak in spririt that she be tempted down the blasphemous path towards righteous condemnation.
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Chaplain Mark Rice
Unfortunately, IMHO, theological dogma has become more a means of exerting control as to what to believe or how to live as opposed to living love to the love and tolerance that was shown by Jesus. I was at a community event recently and I told a street preacher that I was an ordained minister. His preaching partner asked me that if I were at the gates of heaven, what would I tell God as to why I should be allowed to enter. I told him, that I would tell the Father that I submit myself freely for His judgement as I am. I spent the next few minutes getting quoted to from the Bible as to what is and what isn't. I let him know that I am not in conflict with anyone who is earnestly seeking Gad in their life as they see fit simply because Jesus told us to love each other and to love God. What did I get... more hammering and I do mean hammering. I finally shrugged my shoulders and told him I respect what he is doing, as I do all my brothers and sisters. It stopped him cold, but I don't think he really got what I was trying to say. (We did part with a hug.) Keep it simple; love each other and love God. Sounds like there should be a lot of room for tolerance in that for other people as they are or choose to be. The nice part is I don't have to worry about or try to control others, just minister to those who seek what I have to offer. God Bless them all......
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Minister Rob
Why honor a psychologically, sexually, or physically abusive parent? Why honor/follow/worship an abusive God?
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Mike brouillard
To tell the truth is to show love.
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Minister Rob
What if the premise of religious texts, religions, etc., are all lies told to separate people from the Creator? What if they're all just lies used to abuse and manipulate people? How would you know?
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Mike brouillard
The truth in this world will be hated and his name is Jesus Amen
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Minister Rob
So...The Koran is not truth? The Talmud is not truth? The Veda? Wicca? Atheism? Agnosticism? Universalism? Pure deism? All lies? Could not an omnipotent God make them ALL true? Many Christians call people of any differing beliefs "liars". This is JUDGEMENT. Shame on you judgmental Christians! Christians can't even agree with each other. Why are there so many different bibles and Christian factions? Because it's manmade. It's open to editing and interpretation. Read "1984". Step outside of the religion that you have been forcefed. Even the literary figure of Jesus disagreed with the Letter, as opposed to the Spirit of the law. Open your eyes. Open your minds. If there is a Creator, be thankful, but do not believe the words of men simply because they are forcefed to you. Question the words and actions of fellow humans. They may just be trying to control you.
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Minister Rob
Organized religion is psychological abuse. The bible and many other religious texts are designed for people in power to cherry pick and manipulate others.
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Chaplain Mark Rice
I see them more as being conducted like a business. They tend to have a target group of acceptable members. To belong you must swear an allegiance to the church. Seems like like I remember stories about this carpenter fella that offered himself to all people, unconditionally. That's the kind of person I can follow.
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Minister Rob
"Stories". Yup. They could be exactly that... Stories composed by people like Titus Flavius...Stories composed and revised through the years, like something out of "1984". These are stories that can be used by people in power to control others...to keep the masses divided, disorganized, and ignorant.
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Mike brouillard
It's not about religion it's about relationship with the only way to heaven Jesus. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. No one else in going to heaven this is the truth. Everything else is emotional belief ism and will leave you in hell tricked by your own understanding and satanic whispers.... Ole Screwtape has trapped your mind. Repent and believe and you will be set free from the wrath to come and it will be very soon the signs of the times are here. There is only one way to heaven Jesus.
Turn or burn all other faiths are going to hell! So please turn to Jesus and ask him to open your eyes. But your will must be to seek Him.
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Chaplain Mark Rice
To accept Jesus is to accept the two commandments He gave us... to love each other and to Love God. Rule #1 for doing that is leaving judgement in God's hands. I have no idea what will happen to anyone else on their judgement day and I don't live my life preparing for judgement day, I live it appreciating the great gifts God has given me and doing my best to express the Love that Jesus gave me. That is the truth that has set me free.... Really....
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Minister Rob
Who told you that Jesus is the only way? People. Who told you that the bible was the truth? People. Why do you believe that the bible is any more truthful than the Koran, Talmud, Veda, etc.? Because people have told you so? Because the bible has told you so? That is brainwashing. Threatening people with eternal hellfire because they think/believe differently from you? That is abusive manipulation. Any god who would send any of their children to eternal hell fire is abusive. Do you all want to worship/follow an abusive god? The bible and several other religious texts were designed to enable cherrypicking, crazymaking, and manipulation. The question arises...Is this for good or bad?
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Chaplain Mark Rice
This is why I'm not in conflict with any other faith. There are many truths out there. Anyone who hates in the name of a religion just isn't getting it. Thanks for sharing that....
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M
Thomas Jefferson was the one who drafted the Constitution and all the other wanted him to put in the father, the son and the holy ghost as the instigators of our freedom for the drafting of the Constitution, it was Jefferson that pushed for the use of God.https://blogsensebybarb.wordpress.com/2012/02/24/you-think-thomas-jefferson-embraced-the-koran-think-again/ Thomas Jefferson understood the same thing Ronald Reagan understood … that the best position for negotiation is from a position of strength. He quickly realized that though he was pledged to “religious freedom,” the brand of Islam involved in this slave trade taught him Islam was not just a religion but a political system as well. The fact that President Obama continues to dismantle and understaff our military, and fail to give them a specific and clear “winnable” objective demonstrates either his lack of resolve OR his resolve to our destruction. http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/257151/thomas-jefferson-radical-islams-war-west-david-l-hunter
http://rednecknewswire.com/2015/10/thomas-jeffersons-response-to-muslims-in-1801-is-exactly-what-we-need-now/# Thomas Jefferson – the Father of the Declaration of Independence, and John Adams are both recognized as influential framers of the Constitution of the United States: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were both undertaking diplomatic missions in Europe during the creation of the final version of the Constitution of the United States; as a result, neither the signature of Thomas Jefferson – nor that of John Adams appear amongst the names of the Constitutional signees
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Chaplain Mark Rice
Our founding fathers were wise to separate church and state. This is part of today's guarantee for all of us to establish our ministries as God see for us to do. Kin Davis took an oath to God uphold and protect the constitution of the United States. Marriage is a state issue and should be regulated by each individual state. However, civil rights are a constitutional issue as ruled by the Supreme Court. Nobody is asking Kim to marry, get married to, or directly participate with a gay wedding. The additional issue is she is imposing her religious beliefs on the clerks that work for her. Abiding one's faith is one thing. Forcing others to adhere to it is another. If she wants a religiously based faith job, then she needs to seek employment in a church. I know that I as an American Veteran will protect and defend and I have no conflict of conscious doing that.
For a spiritual point of view, I do my best to adhere to the concept that passing judgement based on doctrine or scripture is God's job when it comes time to do that. In the mean time, I will do my best to avoid telling Him how to do His job or how He plans to do it. Jesus taught us to love each other and to love the Father. Imagine what would happen if the hearts, minds, and souls of humanity started doing that. I'm not a liberal by any means, but civil rights is a big part of that love Jesus talked about. Even though there has to be a separation of church and state, I believe the constitution to be established on some pretty sound religious concepts.
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Tom
Well said!
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Minister james Samuel. Perkins
Can people live with that chance of life that been for years. When I was born When I seen the gays they been doing this for years and life never change .there still decimintion in this world of life. People hate people and people still hate other nationally so, what is there to really say. Kkk doing they thing black revolutional doing they thing every country doing they thing if life is becoming. the big boss in the big seats say what hose hose even the presendent can't stop them from voteing off what he want to go. Lol
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Bev Lowden
Enjoyed your post!
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Jubilee K.
Very well said! Thank you 100% for your comment Chaplain. Peace and blessings
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SistaSan
Chaplain Rice, I was in total agreement with you -- until the last sentence! Unless you consider racism and sexism "pretty sound religious concepts", you might want to seriously reconsider that sentence. The U.S. Constitution, in its unamended form, grants the right to own property and/or vote, exclusively, to white males!
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M
When then founding fathers stated that we should have a separation of church and state it was not so that there could be a different religious institution on every street corner. most of them were in fact christens and this country was founded with Christian values in mind. the idea for the not mixing church with state came in because they did not want this country to do like many countries still do and like what is happening over in Russia, and that is a government ran church. It was never put in to defile the Christian based religious established view points that this country was founded on. that is why they left so much Christian land marks sort of speak in our documents.
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Pastor Pete
Ben Franklin and Thomas Paine were both atheists...
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M
not only that, but Ben Franklin was not an atheist, he was a free mason and a Rosicrucian AMORC, they believe in Jesus the Christ. you do not know what you are talking about.
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Pastor Pete
Wrong! Check your sources, Ben and Tom were both atheist, check what they had to say, that's why there is separation of Church and State, so no one has to follow a state religion.
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Tom
Ms. Davis was in jail on contempt of court charges. She was jailed for violating a court order, not because of her religious beliefs. In fact, the judge made a point of saying that Ms. Davis is entitled to believe whatever her religion says. He went further in saying that this does not give her the right to impose those beliefs on others. The simple fact of her case is that she is elected, took an oath to uphold the law, is paid by taxpayer money and refused to perform according to the implied contract of her position and her oath. If her religious beliefs cause her to disagree with any law or court ruling, she has no choice but to resign her position and seek employment elsewhere in hopes that the new employment will not offend her religious sensibilities...sensibilities that she is entitled to possess. Considering her current performance in a job, as a prospective employer, I might be reluctant to hire her. As a business owner, I would hate to be in the position of having to write every employees job description based on their personally held religious beliefs. Can you even imagine what that would bring upon our society?
Her past history of marriages and divorces, while repugnant to some and disingenuous to others, really do not concern me. This behavior is something she will answer to before a much higher authority. As I understand the facts, she did not have her religious epiphany until after the marital merry-go-round. I will not judge her.
As to her performance on the job, as a taxpayer, I am astonished at her lack of personal honor by not resigning. While employers should make reasonable accommodation in the work place for religious beliefs, the county where she works is under no obligation to rewrite her job description to accommodate the laws she chooses to obey.
Just to address the question of what law is on the books making same-sex marriage legal, I would remind us that the Supreme Court ruling on June 26th simply said that bans on same-sex marriage are unconstitutional. This, in effect, legalized the act. The same can be said for the Hobby Lobby case, and I did not hear any outrage about judicial activism from the religionists on that one. We all tend to love the Court when it rules in favor of our thought and dislike like the Court when it rules against us. Such is a democratic society. You win some, you lose some, and some get rained out. The sun will still come up tomorrow.
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kimm
Looking at this lady in her entire situation, personal and public life, I really think she has more issues than just not wanting to issue licenses. Her personal life alone reveals a very troubled, maybe even screwed up person.
But what really bothers me in all of this, are those making it into a religious issue. This was an issue of a person not doing her job. Period! She got to where she wasn't issuing marriage licenses to anyone.
If her job requirements bother her that much, then she needs to gracefully step down and get a job at a place where she can follow her beliefs, right or wrong, to the letter.
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Martha Panelli
Tom, you said it well. Thank you.
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Carlos Quito
Tom, your comment is the most rational and balanced reply of the comments I have seen here. Well done
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Don Iarussi MFA
I think she is a hero! A strong Democrat, which is unusual. I hope she now leaves the Democrat Party!. The fact that lesbians who work in position of authority who refused to marry heterosexual couples shows the arrogance of the state run liberal media in the USA. Also, the face that gay bakers do not have to bake wedding cakes for heterosexual couples. I will support a conservative agenda that protects religious rights. One that protects the 2nd amendment. One that does nor want to destroy the faith based values of the USA, the greatest nation in the world....California in my opinion is a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah and has been hit with fire, drought, misery. Is it punishment for it's evil values? Why not? There is no relationship between refusing to marry a same sex couple and hatred. As a former liberal and Democrat. I have clearly seen most hatred and intolerance coming from the left , not from Christians or Jews. If you want to point a finger at religious intolerance, look no further than the beheading of women in the Mid East by Islam. The burning of homosexual and lesbians while still alive. Women being forced to wear masks to cover their face and be servants to men. But, the left does not dare talk about that. they are too afraid of what might happen to them. They focus on their hatred and intolerance for Judaeo Christian values and their disdain for the unborn in our nation.... Go Bless the USA!
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Glen
the areas with high infant mortality, the poorest health, the weakest and most dependent state economies, the lowest educated populations, highest consumption of pornography, not to mention repeated hurricanes and tornadoes are the southern red states. So by your logic, God must reeeaaaaalllllly be angry with how those conservatives are living their lives.
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Mike brouillard
Amen Jesus is Lord. Therefore God gave them over to a reprobate mind forsaking natural relationships for unnatural relationships. Romans 1 this is Gods wrath on a sinful nation ripe for destruction by fire we murder and sell baby's Gods fire is coming accept Jesus now while he may be found. There is only one way to heaven and that's Jesus all others are going to hell...
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E M Moriarty
"All others are going to hell..."! What ever happened to peace, love and understanding?
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Dr. Griffith
I am amazed that over and over these haters of others different than them quote the Bible, but never a quote from the Gospels. The word of Jesus Christ. The quote the Old Testament, the time before Christ, and no Christians, and Books that write about the teachings of Christ. Where are the quotes from Christ about these abominations. Christ did speak to other wrongs, like divorce, but that is okay in the eyes of these so called Christians. They have made a different Christ so they can make the statements they do. They have made Christianity a religion of hate and intolerance, the complete opposite of the teachings of Christ from the Bible. They even make Christ a Christian when he was a Jew.
Real Christians are the women of Charleston who had the Faith to love and forgive. They went before the killer and told them they forgave him. That is a Christian.
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Vickie
People need to try and live by the Spirit of God and the Spirit is not about hate of anyone. We live in a fallen world and we are a fallen people that is why we do the things we do. I do remember in the Bible it says in Psalm 1, Blessed is the man who walketh not in the Council of the ungodly, Nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful, but his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he meditates day and night. and he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth fruit in his season, his leaf also shall not wither, and whatsoever He doeth shall prosper. the ungodly are not so but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous, for the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous, but the way of the ungodly shall perish. Each individual has to stand before God and God will decide who is righteous and who is not. The key thing to remember is that it's not by our righteousness that we are forgiven (saved) but by His righteousness. The Lord woke me up at 3 a.m. one morning and showed me a program called " in the life" and it was about gay people. I asked Lord why are you showing me this, he spoke to me very clearly and he said these people are all going to hell not because they're gay but because they don't know me. I was shocked, I then understood that people don't go to hell because of their sins, they go to hell because they don't know Him. The forgiver of sins. So don't judge other people pray for them instead.
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Dark Gray
"There is only one way to heaven and that’s Jesus all others are going to hell…"
One principle I've learned in life is: "Where there's a will, there's a won't."
People are ornery. No matter how reasonable you think your plan is, there's always someone who doesn't like it. You'd think God would have learned that by now . . .
:-)
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Pastor Pete
You should check out the debate on religious tolerance old boy, we are a church of many faiths and the Christians are by far the least tolerant, most judgemental people on here. Shame on you, and by the way, how are you coping with the other unworkable laws in your book?
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Jailyn
strong democrats are unusual? How do you think gay marriage was legalized at the state levels for most of the states before the supreme court ruling? Strong democrats. How do you think the civil rights movement succeeded? Strong democrats. I think what you mean to say is "a democrat with totally republican views, which is unusual." And yeah, everyone hopes she leaves the party she has never agreed with and shows her true colors in the republican party. Everyone wins! Also, please show me instances where gay bakers won't make cakes for straights.
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Dark Gray
News update: Kim Davis has been released from jail because the judge decided that, since her office has begun issuing marriage licenses in her absence, she is no longer in contempt. And at least one of her deputies has declared that he will continue to issue marriage licenses even if Ms. Davis orders him to stop.
As this little firestorm plays itself out, I'm trying to bear in mind a certain principle I've learned over the years:
With God, the ends do not justify the means. Rather, the ends *are* the means.One teaches lessons of love and tolerance by being loving and tolerant, not by attacking those whom we believe represent the forces of hatred and intolerance. And one teach righteousness by being righteous, not by attacking those whom we believe are unrighteous. By attacking others, we teach only attack.
God loves Ms. Davis and the gays she tried to prevent from marrying equally. Can I ask that everyone tries to keep all this in mind as our discussion here unfolds?
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Chaplain Mark Rice
I believe in that faith is a relationship between the individual and the God. I am not in conflict with what anyone believes to be their religious or spiritual truth. I respect it when anyone practices what they believe God wants them to do. However, her forcing her staff to follow her beliefs, she is crossing the line. I'm glad she had at least one clerk stand for what is right and I'm glad she has decided not to interfere with he or she that decides to follow a law based on constitutional civil rights.
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Dark Gray
To play devil's advocate . . .
Suppose that you were a county clerk, and suppose that something abhorrent to you became the law of the land. Suppose, for example, you became responsible for issuing certain permits to anyone who paid a fee and filled out the proper form. Suppose (to choose an outrageous example) that these permits would allow the person to lynch a black person of their choosing.
What would you do? Assuming you wouldn't issue the permits yourself, would you allow them to be issued in your name? Or would you force your staff to follow your beliefs?
Understand, I'm not arguing with you, Mark, nor am I defending Ms. Davis' actions. I'm glad the situation has worked out the way it has. I've been pro-gay marriage before it was cool to be pro-gay marriage. And, of course, gay marriage does not equate to killing blacks, not by any stretch of the imagination.
I'm just trying a little thought experiment to see inside the mind of another of God's children. It's an interesting thing to think about once in a while.
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David R Rodriguez
I would quit my job
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Rick Pascal
It's simple Dark Gray, you quit your job if you can't follow the law.
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Jailyn
I would quit. Thanks for your example because it makes it painfully obvious that kim should just quit instead of taking our tax dollars and not working.
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Marty Jackson
I would quit the job and not continue to accept pay for not doing the job I was hired to do. I do not believe that is acting out of integrity. By living in America, we agree to abide by the law of the land. If we disagree with the law then we have the right to work to change it. But we do not have the right to force others to do our will , especially when it breaks the law. We also do not have the right to deny others their rights by claiming our own.
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Michael
Thank you at least some people understand how it all works(jailyn,marty).and I am also a christian stand behind your convictions all you want when your not at a public office.
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M
you would not think that way if you wanted or needed the work and the pay check, esp. since the person trying to do this grotesque thing is mentally ill anyway, since when do we change our lives for the mentally ill. when this country does, as it has been, it is getting close to collapsing as is our society is now. it is immoral and it and things like it are bringing down our society just like this whole immigration deal bringing in illegal criminal's and the muslin's, all these people are caudled and immature and mentally ill and should not be allowed to be caudle.
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Diane Baum
There are many who will say she has done the "right thing," and others who will condemn her. But I remember what Jesus said, "those who are without sin, cast the first stone." Is she sticking to her convictions? Personally I feel that when she knew the Supreme Court legalized gay marriage and if it was such an impediment for her, then she should have graciously stepped down. Jesus also admonished us to "render what is Caesar's...and to God what is God's." And again, He told us that His Kingdom is not of this world. So...feeling as she does, she really needs to step down. She can show her devotion in other ways, by not being judgmental, by being a peaceful person, by not pushing her beliefs down onto another. Love and accept others right where they are....so that by your fruits they may recognize you.
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Minister Rob
Yup. Whether you're Christian or not, this seems a sensible path. Render unto Caesar, or resign. Attack the issue from another angle maybe. We all live in glass houses. We're all perfectly imperfect. We're human.
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Chuck Hutchison (@thechaz2011)
Love the sinner! Hate the sin! Sodomy is an abomination in the eyes of God. God's plan for marriage is between a man and woman. God's love/mercy is always there. Jesus Christ invites us to accept him as our Lord and saviour. Confess our sin amend our life accord to his plan. Amazing Grace!
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Jailyn
most sodomites are straight people, by far. Sodomy is any sexual act other than the most basic required for procreation. The award for most anal sex: straight people Award for most oral sex: straight people Award for coitus with birth control: straight people!
Married straight people love sodomy!
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CeAnne
Jailyn for the win!
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Rev paul
I agree with you Chuck wholeheartedly
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minister kyle
i think that will be thrown out there but god once said for those who taste the fruits of victory shall be justified and nobody shall not raise any thing that will show peace and not voilonce
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Daryl Porn
I am sorry Diane the Bible is clear in the last chapters in the Bible Rev 22:14-15. Where he mentions sexually immoral.. Gen 1:28 where God talks about creation of man and women to fill the earth and subdue it. Be fruitful and multiply. Supreme Court was totally wrong on this ruleing. You say she should not push her belief down on to other peoples again the Bible say in Timothy 4: 1-5. Preach the word beready in season nd out of season. Convince,rebuke,exhort,with all long suffering and teaching .
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ryno
Genesis 32:22 That night Jacob got up and took his two wives, his two female servants and his eleven sons and crossed the ford of the Jabbok. why don't you follow this from the bible..... where are your female slave? where r your two wives??? why do we selectively choose quotes?
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Diane Baum
St Francis exhorts: "preach the Gospel. Use words if necessary." We need to lead by our example. Yes..the Supreme Court does not speak for me...or for you and this is what is sad....but again...if I knew that a job now expected me to do something that goes against my convictions, I would step down. Again we go back to Jesus' day, when the Roman empire was in full charge. Jesus knew this and admonished his disciples that "it is not yet my time." For Him to have been crucified before He could finish what God began would have been the greatest setback. Jesus, being God AND man, could have brought forth all sorts of calamities against the Romans....just as God did against Pharaoh in Moses' day. But this time, humanity won out--- for awhile! Divinity won our redemption...but again...would the meaning of why Jesus did what He did have had the impact it has on us 2000 years later if Jesus had ousted Rome from Jerusalem? He had the power to do so but chose not to. He lead by example....
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Brother Chris
Daryl, I hear your argument and see your point, however, look in a dictionary for the definitions of convince, rebuke and exhort. Some words synonymous with those words are; persuade, disapproval, criticism, encourage, urge. None of those words have synonyms like force, refuse, etc.. I am a retired police officer and during my 24+ years as a public servant, I was always expected to be impartial, regardless of the issue, regardless of my personal feelings. Many times I had been sent to abortion clinics to keep the peace between demonstrators on both sides of the abortion issue and never once did I so much as express my personal belief on the issue. Had I done so and refused to perform my duties based on my personal beliefs, I would most certainly been disciplined by my department and ordered to perform my duties......period. I am sure most would agree a police officer who refuses to perform his appointed duties as a public servant and who is paid by the taxpayers of his/her jurisdiction, should simply not be a police officer. Further, a police officer who refuses to perform his duty would be insubordinate to his superiors and guilty of dereliction of duty......which in my state could lead to a criminal charge of official misconduct. So tell me, what is the difference between my example and what the elected public servant from Kentucky is doing? I wholeheartedly believe Ms Davis has a right to her religious beliefs, however, by definition of her job responsibilities, she does not have the authority to not perform her duties.
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Brother Chris
Jo-Ann.....Ms Davis was jailed for contempt of court. She holds an elected position, so she cannot simply be fired. As an elected County Clerk, she would have taken an oath (to put it succinctly) to do her job. She refused to do that portion of her job, so she was ordered to do so by a judge. When she refused to abide by the judge's order, the judge found her to be in contempt of court. Under the law, a judge can jail you for contempt for a reasonable, predetermined amount of time, or until the contempt has been removed. In this instance, the judge had her released because he was convinced the other County Clerk employees would properly issue all marriage license as determined by case law (the Supreme Court), thereby removing the contempt. If she continues to refuse to issue the marriage licenses, she can again be jailed for contempt. In order for her to be removed from her elected position, dependent upon Kentucky law, she would have to be recalled or impeached, etc..
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JO-ANN
THANKYOU......that makes sense...and, very problematic for her ....again, thank you for explaining that to me. She does have quite a decision to make....Her career as she knew it has changed....wow...can you imagine the next time an election is held for her postion.....CHRISTIANS NEED NOT APPLY
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Diane Baum
exactly....again...if your personal beliefs will contradict the job you are being paid to do, then you should step down. There is nothing that says you cannot speak out...by all means, speak out! Speak out because in this great country, we have that right! We have the right to do pretty much anything! However, in a paid position, you must do what is expected. If that will offend your beliefs, step aside. Kim was arrested NOT because she stood up for her beliefs, but because she refused to perform the duties of her work.
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JO-ANN
I have never heard about anyone being arrested for not performing the duties of their work......she should of been fired or demoted ....I still can't quite understand why she was arrested....that being said...I totally agree with you....her beliefs do not allow her to do her job any longer....because...IT IS NOW THE LAW THAT SHE ISSUES MARRIAGE LICENSES... We lost that one....I hope we as Christians CAN WIN A FEW...THAT WOULD BE SO NICE!!!
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Daryl Porn
Brother Chris I see your point also but in your examples you had to keep peace in your job and I do understand your oath that you and she took. You did not have to do anything in your job that came between your faith and your job. With her giving out marage licences to gays she is not only going against her faith but she is contributing to something she is totally against as a Christian.
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Brother Chris
I understand what you are saying Daryl, however I never disclosed what my religious beliefs are...... because as a public official, MY religious beliefs are irrelevant as it pertains to my job. Being my own "devil's advocate", in fairness to Ms Davis, the "rules" were changed after she had already been elected to her position. Had the Supreme Court decision come before her election, perhaps Ms Davis would have dropped out of the race because of her religious beliefs. By virtue of the Supreme Court decision, Ms Davis has been put in a very difficult position and as a Christian, I am sympathetic to her moral dilemma. Unfortunately, Ms Davis's situation has turned into a political circus which has forced her into the spotlight. I am sure this too weighs on her as she considers how she will proceed. So I will pray for Ms Davis to resolve the matter according to her conscience and religious beliefs and I will also pray for God to give her strength as she continues being pushed into the spotlight. I respect Ms Davis's beliefs and her constitutional rights and in a perfect world, she would never have been put to such a personal test as this. Admittedly, I do not know everything and I am unqualified to advise anyone on how they should live their life. I have never been a judgmental person, therefore I pass no judgement on Ms Davis or the US Supreme Court. I will leave that for the Almighty to decide.
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Lynne
she has the right to challenge the law
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Dubya
For 28 years I served my country and swore to support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic. I defended Kim Davis's right to choose to violate the constitution as well. Kim Davis is a domestic enemy who chooses not to "Do what is right." Gays who want to marry are trying to exercise their rights and live their American dream. How can you deny them that right? "Do what is right."
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Daryl Porn
What is right Your duty to your oath or your duty to God
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Dubya
The oath starts with "I do solemnly swear" and ends with "So help me God." Therefore, I can say without a doubt my duty to my oath.
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Cassandra Morrison (@sh634113)
Jesus is very clear about this: "All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." John 6:37
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M
that means those who do not reject God, Jesus ad their ways and teaching, they can be lead to them, but they can not be let into the kingdom if not of the nature to follow all of Gods rules.
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RLD II
Our nation was founded in the principal of separation of church and state. That was for good reason any person could practice his or her religion and beliefs without persecution. People in public office; elected or not, must follow their job description or find another job. Those who have read the bible should also study the meaning of those words in the bible back in the days they were written - they would find a whole new way of interpreting the good book! God bless all of us and I hope we find ways to come together.
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M
no our nation was written by Christians with christian point of view, that is why many women who were homos were not being moral and they knew she was a heretic and a hypocrite, not being a christian, and they burned her at the stake or dunked her until she drowned. the only thing that the separation of church and state meant was that the country would not force a state religion such as what is in old Russia and people would not have the right to be catholic or Protestants or baptists or many other Christians, as many o the founder believed in God and that is why they incorporated it into so much our our nations symbols. Most of our first inhabitants came from Europe and the uk and they were Christians and or Catholics. that is why Britain says they are defiantly Christians and have been since the days of Jesus himself.
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Pastor Pete
Just to put you straight Mary, Christianity came to England in 597 with Saint Augustine
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M
to pastor pete, you are wrong, just to set you straight, Christianity came to England with Jesus. they were the first christian country. go here for the proof. http://www.truthbeknown.com/christ-great-britain.html
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Reverend Mother Susan
Well said! Thank you, Diane!
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M
not well said, he does not know what he is talking about or he would know that Jesus himself was in Englandhttp://www.truthbeknown.com/christ-great-britain.html.
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Pastor Pete
Nonsense! There is not one shred of evidence to support this, sorry, you ate totally wrong. I've been to Glastonbury many times, I am an English person, you are wrong.
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M
you are wrong, I spoke with Masons, they have records of their members and Mr Benjamin Franklin was in fact a member. And I know members of the Rosicrucians,AMORC and they too have records of Mr Benjamin Franklin being a member. Do you know any members from the Masons or from AMORC?
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M
no shred of proof, what do you call this, you did not do your research very well because there is proof here.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin. For other uses of "Benjamin Franklin", "Ben Franklin", and "Franklin", see Benjamin Freemason Franklin (disambiguation) and Franklin (disambiguation). Benjamin Franklin BenFranklin Duplessis.jpg 6th President of Pennsylvania In office October 18, 1785 – November 5, 1788 Vice President Charles Biddle Thomas Mifflin Preceded by John Dickinson Succeeded by Thomas Mifflin United States Minister to Sweden In office September 28, 1782 – April 3, 1783 Appointed by Congress of the Confederation Preceded by Position established Succeeded by Jonathan Russell United States Minister to France Freemason In office September 14, 1778 – May 17, 1785 Serving with Arthur Lee, Silas Deane, John Adams Appointed by Continental Congress Preceded by Position established Succeeded by Thomas Jefferson 1st United States Postmaster General In office July 26, 1775 – November 7, 1776 Preceded by Position established Succeeded by Richard Bache Speaker of the Pennsylvania Assembly In office May 1764 – October 1764 Preceded by Isaac Norris Succeeded by Isaac Norris Personal details Born January 17, 1706 Boston, Massachusetts Bay, British America Died April 17, 1790 (aged 84) Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, U.S. Political party Independent Spouse(s) Deborah Read Children William FVirtue, religion, and personal beliefs
A bust of Franklin by Jean-Antoine Houdon
Voltaire blessing Franklin's grandson, in the name of God and Liberty, by Pedro Américo
Benjamin Franklin by Hiram Powers Like the other advocates of republicanism, Franklin emphasized that the new republic could survive only if the people were virtuous. All his life he explored the role of civic and personal virtue, as expressed in Poor Richard's aphorisms. Franklin felt that organized religion was necessary to keep men good to their fellow men, but rarely attended religious services himself.[124] When Franklin met Voltaire in Paris and asked this great apostle of the Enlightenment to bless his grandson, Voltaire said in English, "God and Liberty," and added, "this is the only appropriate benediction for the grandson of Monsieur Franklin."[125]
Franklin's parents were both pious Puritans.[126] The family attended the Old South Church, the most liberal Puritan congregation in Boston, where Benjamin Franklin was baptized in 1706.[127] Franklin's father, a poor chandler, owned a copy of a book, Bonifacius: Essays to Do Good, by the Puritan preacher and family friend Cotton Mather, which Franklin often cited as a key influence on his life.[128] Franklin's first pen name, Silence Dogood, paid homage both to the book and to a widely known sermon by Mather. The book preached the importance of forming voluntary associations to benefit society. Franklin learned about forming do-good associations from Cotton Mather, but his organizational skills made him the most influential force in making voluntarism an enduring part of the American ethos.[129]
Franklin formulated a presentation of his beliefs and published it in 1728.[130] It did not mention many of the Puritan ideas as regards belief in salvation, the divinity of Jesus, and indeed most religious dogma. He clarified himself as a deist in his 1771 autobiography,[131] although he still considered himself a Christian.[132] He retained a strong faith in a God as the wellspring of morality and goodness in man, and as a Providential actor in history responsible for American independence.[133]
It was Ben Franklin who, at a critical impasse during the Constitutional Convention in June 1787, attempted to introduce the practice of daily common prayer with these words:
... In the beginning of the contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the Divine Protection. – Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. ... And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need His assistance. I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth – that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings that "except the Lord build they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: ... I therefore beg leave to move – that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that service.[134]
However, the motion met with resistance and was never brought to a vote.[135]
Franklin was an enthusiastic supporter of the evangelical minister George Whitefield during the First Great Awakening. Franklin did not subscribe to Whitefield's theology, but he admired Whitefield for exhorting people to worship God through good works. Franklin published all of Whitefield's sermons and journals, thereby earning a lot of money and boosting the Great Awakening.[136]
When he stopped attending church, Franklin wrote in his autobiography:
... Sunday being my studying day, I never was without some religious principles. I never doubted, for instance, the existence of the Deity; that He made the world, and governed it by His providence; that the most acceptable service of God was the doing good to man; that our souls are immortal; and that all crime will be punished, and virtue rewarded, either here or hereafter.[137][138]
Franklin retained a lifelong commitment to the Puritan virtues and political values he had grown up with, and through his civic work and publishing, he succeeded in passing these values into the American culture permanently. He had a "passion for virtue".[139] These Puritan values included his devotion to egalitarianism, education, industry, thrift, honesty, temperance, charity and community spirit.[140]
The classical authors read in the Enlightenment period taught an abstract ideal of republican government based on hierarchical social orders of king, aristocracy and commoners. It was widely believed that English liberties relied on their balance of power, but also hierarchal deference to the privileged class.[141] "Puritanism ... and the epidemic evangelism of the mid-eighteenth century, had created challenges to the traditional notions of social stratification"[142] by preaching that the Bible taught all men are equal, that the true value of a man lies in his moral behavior, not his class, and that all men can be saved.[142] Franklin, steeped in Puritanism and an enthusiastic supporter of the evangelical movement, rejected the salvation dogma, but embraced the radical notion of egalitarian democracy.
Franklin's commitment to teach these values was itself something he gained from his Puritan upbringing, with its stress on "inculcating virtue and character in themselves and their communities."[143] These Puritan values and the desire to pass them on, were one of Franklin's quintessentially American characteristics, and helped shape the character of the nation. Franklin's writings on virtue were derided by some European authors, such as Jackob Fugger in his critical work Portrait of American Culture. Max Weber considered Franklin's ethical writings a culmination of the Protestant ethic, which ethic created the social conditions necessary for the birth of capitalism.[144]
One of Franklin's notable characteristics was his respect, tolerance and promotion of all churches. Referring to his experience in Philadelphia, he wrote in his autobiography, "new Places of worship were continually wanted, and generally erected by voluntary Contribution, my Mite for such purpose, whatever might be the Sect, was never refused."[137] "He helped create a new type of nation that would draw strength from its religious pluralism."[145] The evangelical revivalists who were active mid-century, such as Franklin's friend and preacher, George Whitefield, were the greatest advocates of religious freedom, "claiming liberty of conscience to be an 'inalienable right of every rational creature.'"[146] Whitefield's supporters in Philadelphia, including Franklin, erected "a large, new hall, that ... could provide a pulpit to anyone of any belief."[147] Franklin's rejection of dogma and doctrine and his stress on the God of ethics and morality and civic virtue made him the "prophet of tolerance."[145] Franklin composed "A Parable Against Persecution", an apocryphal 51st chapter of Genesis in which God teaches Abraham the duty of tolerance.[148] While he was living in London in 1774, he was present at the birth of British Unitarianism, attending the inaugural session of the Essex Street Chapel, at which Theophilus Lindsey drew together the first avowedly Unitarian congregation in England; this was somewhat politically risky, and pushed religious tolerance to new boundaries, as a denial of the doctrine of the Trinity was illegal until the 1813 Act.[149]
Although Franklin's parents had intended for him to have a career in the Church,[8] Franklin as a young man adopted the Enlightenment religious belief in deism, that God's truths can be found entirely through nature and reason.[150] "I soon became a thorough Deist."[151] As a young man he rejected Christian dogma in a 1725 pamphlet A Dissertation on Liberty and Necessity, Pleasure and Pain,[152] which he later saw as an embarrassment,[153] while simultaneously asserting that God is "all wise, all good, all powerful."[153] He defended his rejection of religious dogma with these words: "I think opinions should be judged by their influences and effects; and if a man holds none that tend to make him less virtuous or more vicious, it may be concluded that he holds none that are dangerous, which I hope is the case with me." After the disillusioning experience of seeing the decay in his own moral standards, and those of two friends in London whom he had converted to Deism, Franklin turned back to a belief in the importance of organized religion, on the pragmatic grounds that without God and organized churches, man will not be good.[154] Moreover, because of his proposal that prayers be said in the Constitutional Convention of 1787, many have contended that in his later life Franklin became a pious Christian.[155][156]
At one point, he wrote to Thomas Paine, criticizing his manuscript, The Age of Reason:
For without the Belief of a Providence that takes Cognizance of, guards and guides and may favour particular Persons, there is no Motive to Worship a Deity, to fear its Displeasure, or to pray for its Protection ... think how great a Proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienc'd and inconsiderate Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great Point for its Security; And perhaps you are indebted to her originally that is to your Religious Education, for the Habits of Virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it.[157]
Dr Richard Price, the radical minister of Newington Green Unitarian Church, holding a letter from Franklin According to David Morgan,[158] Franklin was a proponent of religion in general. He prayed to "Powerful Goodness" and referred to God as "the infinite". John Adams noted that Franklin was a mirror in which people saw their own religion: "The Catholics thought him almost a Catholic. The Church of England claimed him as one of them. The Presbyterians thought him half a Presbyterian, and the Friends believed him a wet Quaker." Whatever else Franklin was, concludes Morgan, "he was a true champion of generic religion." In a letter to Richard Price, Franklin stated that he believed that religion should support itself without help from the government, claiming, "When a Religion is good, I conceive that it will support itself; and, when it cannot support itself, and God does not take care to support, so that its Professors are oblig'd to call for the help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."[159]
In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale University, who had asked him his views on religion:
As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as it probably has, of making his doctrines more respected and better observed; especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any particular marks of his displeasure.[10]
On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed a three-member committee composed of Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams to design the Great Seal of the United States. Franklin's proposal (which was not adopted) featured the motto: "Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God" and a scene from the Book of Exodus, with Moses, the Israelites, the pillar of fire, and George III depicted as pharaoh. The design that was produced was never acted upon by Congress, and the Great Seal's design was not finalized until a third committee was appointed in 1782.[160][161]rancis Sarah Signature
Benjamin Franklin (January 17, 1706 [O.S. January 6, 1705][1] – April 17, 1790) was one of the Founding Fathers of the United States. A renowned polymath, Franklin was a leading author, printer, political theorist, politician, freemason, postmaster, scientist, inventor, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat. As a scientist, he was a major figure in the American Enlightenment and the history of physics for his discoveries and theories regarding electricity. As an inventor, he is known for the lightning rod, bifocals, and the Franklin stove, among other inventions.[2] He facilitated many civic organizations, including Philadelphia's fire department and a university.[3] In 1731, Franklin was initiated into the local Masonic Lodge. He became Grand Master in 1734, indicating his rapid rise to prominence in Pennsylvania.[25][26] That same year, he edited and published the first Masonic book in the Americas, a reprint of James Anderson's Constitutions of the Free-Masons. Franklin remained a Freemason for the rest of his life.[27][28] -
Pastor Pete
Actually I do Mary, and I respectfully advise to read what Ben said, not what is said about him. So how about Jesus in England, any evidence there?
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M
Pasture Pete, you are only taking that view point because you want me to accept your point of view and even though my points are defensible and i am giving you some really good legit info. to back it up, you still do not want to choose to accept it, you want others to accept your view, but we know better and we know that your views are biased. as far as me using derogatory terms, that is only because they are acceptably and because i dont believe in calling poison sumac a rose. I feel that if somebody chooses to engage an a very distasteful activity such as smoking, and being a homosexual then they have no right to complain if others objects to wanting to have that exposure around them, or in their society where it will rub off onto their offspring. If they don't like it, then don't do that activity, I dont believe in coddling any body who does not deserve any kind of coddling. and believe me they don't and since they are doing disrespectful things they also do not deserve my respect. I believe that respect is only given when it is earned. And society accepting them does not to them any good for their spiritual development, just like coddling run a ways, or drug addict or anything else like that.
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M
Homos are no different mentally then isis, they want to do bad things, and they want to justify it away,as an excuse. just like Isis does. we have to stop excusing these people, they are destroying our societies. .
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Arthur Cook
Let's step back and look at this from another point. If I apply for a job that has functions ,that I cannot physically do, I cannot then say I will not do those functions. Same holds true if I injure myself later and can not do them. I am now not qualified for the job and need to step down ,or, be replaced. Consider Religion in the same context. If I go into the job with a belief that will not allow me to do all of the functions,or, change my beliefs after taking the job, I am not not qualified to do the job. This whole question come down to simple logic .
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Minister Richard
Kim Davis has confused her right to practice her religion with her fiduciary responsibility as an elected official to follow the laws of the United States of America. She does not have a right to pick and choose what laws she will follow and which ones she will disregard. Contrary to the opinion of some politicians who seized on the opportunity to turn this situation into a religious freedom issue, Kim Davis is an autonomous individual who can decide to follow her conscience and step down from her elected job. She refuses to the "right thing" which is to perform her job duties as elected. I wonder if Jesus would see her actions as authentic or hypocritical? Would she refuse to record a title or mortgage for a same-sex couple? This would be a violation of her duties as well. Because she is an elected official she must be voted out of office if the public disagrees with her actions.
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M
you need to understand that the bible should never be taken literally, the deal about those who cast the first stone was only said because people were trying to set Christ up to see if he would waver about his laws and allow some body to let some woman be murdered at which case that would make him look bad too, so they were trying to set him up in a loose loose situation, but he know that and even though he know what the situation really was, which was that the woman wasn't just a whore, but that she was also used and set up by the evil men in that community. that being the case Christ could not do much but what he did, which was to turn the table around in both their favors, because he has repeatedly said that as servants of God we have to tell people what is acceptable behavior and what isn't in order to be allowed to enter into heaven, so therefore judging is acceptable and encouraged.
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Michael
Not while you are doing your elected job why is this so hard for people to understand
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RLD II
I say forgive her and forget her. This country was founded on seperation of church and state and therefore; as she is an employee of the state she needs to follow the laws of that state and certainly of the Supreme Court. She should have been released from duties as she chose the career path she is on (rather she "inherited" it from her mother - as I know although she was elected I know how small towns work) and that includes following the laws and chain of command. She is not in the position of interpreting the law or using religion to go against the law. That would be like saying a member of the armed services would refuse to go into battle as murder is against his/her religion - it wouldn't happen because he/she is bound to follow the laws of the United States and that of the command and not there religious beliefs. We should celebrate any couple in love who wants to be bound in holy matrimony - may the LBGTQ community have a better track record then their hetero counterparts! The world and its attitudes are changing; thank GOD, and there will be those who are left behind. I fear she is among those who will be left to her misinformed and misdirected "morals" and be a part of those that continuously misinterpreted the Bible and its passages. The Governor and the Supreme Court should have interceded but it is all to fresh for that at this time.
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Hear hear!