Think you’ve had a bad day recently? A Massachusetts lobster diver was swallowed by a humpback whale and fully submerged inside its body – and miraculously survived.
Michael Packard, a 56-year-old commercial lobster diver, was at work off the coast of Cape Cod when suddenly things went south. “I felt this huge shove and the next thing I knew it was completely black,” Packard recalls. “I could sense I was moving, and I could feel the whale squeezing with the muscles in his mouth.”
Initially believing he was in the mouth of a great white shark, Packard’s thoughts turned understandably grim. “I’m done, I’m dead,” he remembers thinking.
With his scuba gear allowing him to breathe, Packard began fighting to escape from inside the mouth of the whale. As he estimates, he spent about 30 to 40 seconds in the whale’s mouth before it surfaced and spat him out.
It’s a miracle he’s alive to share the story. A story that, many have pointed out, sounds awfully similar to another famous tale of a man stuck inside a whale.
The Bible tells of Jonah, a man who was swallowed by a whale and spent three days and three nights in its belly before escaping.
Christians have long debated how literally to take this story. After all, how could someone realistically get trapped in a whale and live to tell about it? Now, Michael Packard’s tale has some believers taking a victory lap and doling out some ‘told-you-so’s’.
Jonah and the Whale
The story of Jonah and the whale is told in the Book of Jonah in the Hebrew Bible. Written in the late 5th or early 4th century BCE, it features the prophet Jonah, whom God commands go to the city of Nineveh to prophecy against their wickedness.
Instead, Jonah catches a ship heading the opposite direction. When a massive storm devastates that ship, lots are cast and Jonah admits that he’s to blame for the storm, and is thrown overboard at his request.
Jonah is saved when he’s swallowed by a whale (or giant fish), where he spends three days and three nights in its belly praying to God. Eventually, the creature vomits up Jonah on dry land, and off he goes to Nineveh, humbled and thankful to God.
Many contemporary biblical scholars believe the story to be fictional and nonliteral, but naturalists in the 17th and 18th centuries believed the story true, and the specific species of whale that swallowed Jonah was the subject of much scholarly debate.
While whales are (obviously) large, many species have a very narrow throat that a human body wouldn’t fit through. This narrow throat ruled out seemingly obvious candidates like blue whales, whose throats only have a diameter of 4 to 8 inches. The most likely whale was determined to be a sperm whale, because they are one of the only whales with a large enough throat to swallow a human whole. Of course, even if one survived the swallowing, they’d be drowned or crushed in the whale’s stomach shortly thereafter.
Fact or Fiction
Despite the obvious biological... difficulties of a human surviving in the stomach of a whale for three days, many Christian pastors still preach the story as truth. And they’re using Michael Packard’s story as proof that the story of Jonah and the whale actually, literally happened.
Another pastor tweeted, “Jonah: 'See...I told you guys it is possible”
While Michael Packard’s story of getting swallowed by a whale and surviving is undoubtedly incredible, he’s actually not the first documented case of a Jonah-like ordeal. Several 18th and 19th century whalers were also unlucky enough to find themselves in the jaws of a sperm whale.
So, while getting swallowed by a whale is exceptionally rare, it is apparently possible.
What do you think? Do these miraculous tales of survival lend credence to a tale from scripture that's often dismissed?
91 comments
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Alexander Pope
I enjoy the blog keep it up thank you !!
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Daniel Gray
Nice try, but you also forgot to mention that in doing some background checks on him he freely admits that he is an atheist. So sorry but your "source" isnt valid
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Shango MasterExorcist, D.D.
Of course God can save an atheist! Especially to prove the Jonah story.
The question about Jonah is not which species of fish, but which brand of scuba diving equipment that Jonah used. In the recent miracle, the atheist spent a few minutes inside the Great Fish. Jonah spent 3 days inside the Great Fish, thereby proving that scuba diving equipment 2500 years ago had much larger oxygen tanks than are available now.
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Rabbi Francine MacHotka
Science always proves biblical events to be true. This is just another example of that happening.
The part of the story that’s missing is the forgiveness and love G-d had for the Ninevites contrasted with the judgemental attitude Jonah had toward them prior to being swallowed by the whale. In the end the people did repent and they were forgiven. G-d always gives people time to mend their ways before they receive judgment. Judgement always comes in G-d time and may not be in the same lifetime or not at all if a person repents. Repenting meaning that there is sincere remorse and change in action of some kind. I believe everyone is destined to know and do the right thing.
For those who don’t believe in G-d or the Tanahk, there are always new perspectives that can change a person’s beliefs. It’s only a matter of time. I believe everyone will know G-d at some point. When we enter into 7000, we will rest and we will all know G-d and know and do what’s right.
To see G-d it helps to acknowledge who you are in the grand scope of things. It helps to be humble and know you’re not so smart or so strong or intellectually capable of understanding how to hold the universe together & that the G-d who created all of that is too big to be seen with our eyes & too intelligent to be completely understood. We will always have to use faith like a child who isn’t able to care for him or herself and has to trust someone else to survive. This is our relationship to him because of our smallness in comparison.
He can only be felt intuitively, experienced with answered prayer and prophecy. The Tanahk says G-d is a spirit that is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. That means he must be the energy that fills everything and creates everything. That isn’t anything we can see. It helps to cultivate a spiritual sense.
To receive answered prayer the Tanahk says we should believe G-d exists and that he rewards those who diligently seek him.
To believe he exists we can use science to see the delicate balance of our atmosphere that’s too detailed as is all of life to be just coincidental. We don’t think and reason and learn by coincidence.
Some answers as to why people die would be that our purpose for that life has been completed and that can happen at any age.
As to suffering as hard as it may be to hear and I don’t suggest I am right at all or that this is the sole purpose of suffering I believe there are many reasons but consider that you can not know good without knowing evil because there’s no basis to compare without the other and you can not build character by making right choices without the ability to make mistakes. You can’t know your size relative to others without trees or hills or mountains... planets, stars, celestial beings. We need to see perspective to know our place physically and spiritually.
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Lionheart
No Francine, science does not always prove biblical events to be true. There is still no evidence yet that Moses was real, or any of those events in Exodus, and many elsewhere in the Bible. In fact, archaeological evidence is struggling to find many of the places listed in the Bible let alone the events of those times. Even the alleged "creation" in Genesis does't fit with any known science.
We all now know through genetic science there was no Adam and Eve. The "church" also believed in the geocentric system of the earth being the center of the universe until Galileo upset the religious apple cart and proved them all wrong, which didn't go down well with the church, so he was imprisoned for the rest of his life.
Spoiler alert; the earth revolves around the sun, and the sun is not the center of the universe.
The moral of the story is: Don't prove religionists wrong.....it damages their ego, and they hate it.
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Daniel Gray
Um sorry yet again Lion, just last night on the weather channel they showed next to south korea a straight that is the most dangerous one in the world, and yet once a year the winds blow just right and a dry land bridge appears between an island 15 miles off the coast of South Korea and South Korea itself.
Discovered in Israel, the Tel Dan Stele has been dated to the ninth century BC and mentions the “House of David,” shattering the long-held view of many skeptics that David was a mythical person.
The Mesha Stele describes Moab’s subjection under Omri, the king of Israel. It also references the personal name of the God of the Bible (Yahweh), and very likely contains a reference to the “House of David”.
The Pilate stone provides archaeological evidence for the existence of the man who sentenced Jesus to death on the Cross. Skeptics frequently denied his existence until the discovery of this stone, which identifies Pontius Pilate as the Prefect of Judea
The Amarna letters discovered in Egypt clearly show that Israel Were in fact slaves in Egypt and then later on the Merneptah Stele Dated to c. 1219 B.C.E., the Merneptah Stele is the earliest extrabiblical record of a people group called Israel. Set up by Pharaoh Merneptah to commemorate his military victories, the stele proclaims, “Ashkelon is carried off, and Gezer is captured. Yeno’am is made into nonexistence; Israel is wasted, its seed is not.” Common sense tells us that if there are records of Israel being slaves in Egypt and then later we have a stone carving that clearly shows an Egyptian king conquering Israel, then that means they had to leave Egypt to have made the country of Israel for the Egyptian to conquer.
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Lionheart
Please don't apologize Daniel.
We all know there have been archaeological findings of a few places associated with what are commonly called the holy lands, and even a few people. That is to be expected isn't it? Please show me where they have found any evidence of Moses? Adam and Eve?
It's interesting Daniel that you should talk of common sense, don't you just love the part in the Bible when Jesus is all alone in the garden of Gethsemane sweating drops of blood talking to God (himself) and someone who wasn't there is actually writing about it? Can you believe Daniel that people actually believe this stuff? Oh....but wait....you do....right, unless you are of the Jewish faith.
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Daniel Gray
Not apologizing for anything, I am showing that the Bible does in fact have factual sites and references in it, unlike what many atheists claim that it does not.
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Lionheart
I’m not contesting that there are a few factual sites that are referenced in the bible Daniel. That should be a given….right, being as they were possibly written in some of those locations? What we don’t know is if the stories written about in that book are in fact true, especially as there are some stories of different accounts, which is to be expected being as the stories, especially in the NT, had been handed down for a few decades before being written by people who possibly hadn’t met the people they were writing about.
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Daniel Gray
A few Lion? Archaeologists use the Bible as a template for their searches of ancient cities and peoples. every city mentioned in the bible and where it was has been found. maybe you should reconsider your position?
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Rabbi Francine MacHotka
Hi Lionheart,
My mistake, I meant to say that “science always proves the Tanahk to be true in the end”. There are for sure things left to be proven but as I watch scientific discoveries, I see it all the time.
My take on the creation is Einstein’s equation for the theory of relativity; E=MC squared. The verses say that G-d ( Energy ) was hovering over the surface of the deep at the time of creation. Based on the equation I mentioned, you only need energy to create matter. Kabbalah calls it Tzim Tzim, where the energy of G-d contracts to create a space for matter to fill. When or if G-d decided to withdraw his presence from any given matter it would cease to exist. This is G-d holding everything together with his presence, power and knowledge something that can’t be seen but understood scientifically. Many concepts in physics can only be understood by looking at small particles and their behavior and applying those principles to a larger scale we can’t see by using mathematical formulas.
Studying how earthquakes have rearranged land on earth, it’s not going to look how it used to be.
Adam and Eve have completely different perspectives in Judaism and Kabbalah than Christianity. It’s not possible to deny Judaism’s claims about these individuals without understanding what’s said of them. Many times I see people apply the teachings of Christianity to ALL religions and that’s an assumption that’s not true.
Mitochondrial DNA, that’s DNA from your mothers, can be traced back to a single mother. It’s done by following genetic mutations.
If I speak of the church or NT, I’m usually speaking hypothetically as I don’t follow the book.
Einstein was Jewish. He didn’t have any flat world beliefs and I haven’t seen anything like that in the Tanahk.
Lionheart, I don’t get offended if someone disagrees with me at all. My faith is strong and I only reply to correct misconceptions not that it means that much to me personally but that I care to help another to have a faith of their own if possible because I think it’s right and I care.
As I’ve said before, I believe in reincarnation. Kabbalah has a many dimensional view of the air around us and this was written down long before the theory of relativity meaning that we are all experiencing time differently depending on where we stand (modern gps). There are many concepts like that which are straight up physics in the process of being understood scientifically.
It has nothing to do with me being right or wrong. To assume all religionists come from the same point of view isn’t true at all.
A Christian would believe G-d holds them personally responsible for the souls of those around them so that they are obligated to speak especially given that people have only have one life and death/hell is imminent.
Some Muslims think all infidels should be converted or killed.
As a Jewish person believing in reincarnation, I think each person has more than one life and I’m not responsible for anyone’s soul like in Christianity and I can be patient with people knowing that there’s time for them and no “hell” like in Christianity that is someone’s destiny who doesn’t believe. Before someone tries to correct me on that and quoting hades verses, it is a time of remorse not a literal fire.
I mentioned just a few religions but each have vastly different perspectives that influence how they see another person’s faith or lack thereof.
I find some atheists to be super judgemental uniting all people under one umbrella which is the definition of predjudism with opinions based on a lack of facts, faulty logic and misunderstandings of something they’ve never really studied and top all of that with a heavy dose of arrogance.
Just sayin ......
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Lionheart
Actually Francine I have studied genetics and I can confirm that there is no evidence that mitochondrial DNA goes back to a single mother. There is evidence for genetic mutations within human DNA, as there is with all living organisms, hence the reason for evolution.
If you think differently on this perhaps you can provide the genetic peer review science associated with your statement.
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Rabbi Francine MacHotka
Hi Lionheart,
I can look for the reference.
It’s from one of the legitimate ancestry DNA programs. The mother is traceable due to mutations that follow from the original mother. So, the test is an mtdna meaning a mitochondrial DNA test meaning all the mothers going way back.
Perhaps what you studied were cases where there were no mutations.
It’s difficult to conceptualize the cumulative effect of procreating. I hear you on that.
In Judaism there are different interpretations and there is one school of thought that doesn’t believe there was only one Eve, by the way. I don’t have an opinion on that from a religious point of view but I did check into getting one of the mtdna tests.
I have a crooked finger my daughters inherited from me, I inherited from my mother who inherited it from her mother. It oddly enough has passed down as far as any of us can remember so I know for a fact that mutations from mothers can go a long way this prompted my study and was confirmed by the geneticists doing the testing that they can do this.
Any research into mtdna ancestry tests will show how it works.
Be well! Thanks for posting!
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Lionheart
Yes I’m familiar with mutations, and it’s my understanding that genetic mutations take place in all forms of DNA every 8,000 years, or so, and not just the mitochondria, and not just in homo-sapiens, even plant life, hence evolution.
I’m still not seeing any evidence of human mitochondria DNA going back to one single homo-sapien female and that would be due to the interbreeding of other known humanoid forms such as the Neanderthals, Denisovans et al. Thanks for your interest.
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Rabbi Francine MacHotka
Hi Lionheart,
I found a page that you can read which explains why mtdna is different from other nuclear dna.
Here’s the link; Http://hihg.med.miami.edu Non Mendelian Inheritance Mitochondrial Mutations
This is a start. I will look for references on mothers going back in time.
Thanks for your post!
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Lionheart
Thank you. I am aware of the difference between MTDNA and other forms of DNA. Plant based DNA is particularly interesting. None of it leads back to a mother Eve plant. Thank you for the reference though.
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Rabbi Francine MacHotka
Lionheart,
It sounds like you’re holding to your statement without reading the reference material you asked me to send.
If you can understand the difference then you can see how it’s possible to go back in time. If you did read the material they you have a surface understanding that’s not deep enough to fully comprehend the possibility.
I’ve had geneticists who do this for a living explain it.
It seems that confirmation bias clouds your opinions sometimes.
Thanks for posting.
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Lionheart
I did take a look at your reference Francine but it didn’t reference anything about an MtDNA Eve. This article might help you understand a bit more about this topic, a topic that initially caused a lot of thoughts by the average theist layman to genetics, thinking there was at last a real MtDNA Eve.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/no-mitochondrial-eve-not-first-female-species-180959593/
Could it be that confirmation bias is in fact clouding your opinion? Just suggesting!
Peace ✌🏼
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Rabbi Francine MacHotka
Lionheart,
I read your reference. As I suspected a few posts ago, you’ve been referring to mtdna that doesn’t include the mutations or that is specific to mother to daughter and the article spoke to all types of species so it wasn’t what I referred to earlier.
Have another look at my reference and see what I’m saying about how mutations make a difference. A mutation acts like a genetic marker that flags a mother that can be traced way back. Without the mutation, there’s no marker. My article was about mother to daughter specifically and it’s different from mother to son and I didn’t see that in your article as your mentioned mother to son and animals equally and there’s a big difference.
Again, I have gotten my knowledge from state of the art geneticists who do this for a living not just a science writer so looking beyond all this.
Interesting that the title of your article contradicts the body of information says that mitochondrial Eve doesn’t exclude the possibility of there being other Eves but it doesn’t disprove that possibility either because where are these other Eves are we to guess they just vanished to prove a point?
Thanks for posting!
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Lionheart
Your other vanishing Eve’s reference is common among all species, not just human species. As genes mutate, some mutate to become corrupt and so not self sustainable, and so they die off. That is the process of evolution right there.
I too have fellow colleagues who are geneticists who all claim there is no genetic Eve. This all stemmed from Bryan Sykes incredible book The Seven Daughters Of Eve. Since that first printing there has been much more research in MtDNA and those seven genetic tribes have now increased in magnitude, going much further back than his suggestion of a mythical Eve, but it’s a fun book to read.
You might like this website. http://www.onezoom.org/life.html/@biota=93302?img=best_any&anim=flight#x-123,y1093,w1.9887
You can zoom in to any branch and leaf and keep going until you find the human family.
Have fun with it.
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Brien
Yes, I am judgemental and why not? Every organized brainwashed belief has been judging everybody since the beginning. Does not feel good, does it? Your belief says it is the one true faith, so does every other faith. That creates division. Division creates hate, hate breeds destruction. This is happening TODAY, right now as we speak. So, I feel no guilt what so ever judging these organized beliefs as nothing more than cradles for hate. You seem like someone that will at least look at the history of destruction done in the name of one myth or another. I put this to you then, if the mythical being is real, which ever mythical being, then that being needs to be held responsible for crimes against humanity. You simply cannot have it both ways. Peace
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Rabbi Francine MacHotka
Hi Brien,
Thanks for posting!
I don’t judge Brien. I believe everyone is a child of G-d and will keep reincarnating until they become who they’re meant to be whoever that would be with no one being left out. That means I have no divisive opinions whatsoever because I believe no one is left out.
I don’t believe there’s one true faith either. How could I if I believe everyone has a purpose. Judaism believes everyone will reincarnate. Some believe that within the Noahide laws a person doesn’t have to believe in G-d but to do the right thing and that’s enough. Even if it weren’t they can have another life to try again.
I don’t hate anyone. I believe most people are following Noahide laws and they don’t know it just by obeying the laws of their country & again if not they’re going to eventually be what they’re meant to be.
We will all of us be ok so there’s no judgment by me whatsoever.
To theorize for a minute. I am a part of the US being an American citizen. Our government has done some horrible crimes against its own citizens and against other nations. I don’t agree with any of that at all and I write letters to complain and voice my outrage because I care. In the end, I’m still an American but what the government does is not my fault it’s beyond my control as only one person. I can choose to study other countries until I find one that more closely resembles what I stand for but none will be perfect so ... that much said, I don’t have to agree with the past to be part of an organized religion. Maybe I’m not going to agree with or believe what I read happened or believe what someone said G-d told them to do he really said. I believe G-d does communicate through intuition and that communication can be misunderstood and influence how books were written.
I don’t think G-d wanted to make perfect little robots that always make the right choices because to do wrong had to be an option in order to reward someone for making the right choice. That much said if someone does do wrong they can’t blame G-d because they had a choice because they were made to be free. We can’t become something without having choices. We aren’t free to love without choices. With the freedom to love is also a freedom to hate. What would love be if there wasn’t a choice. That’s what makes love special.
If G-d where to be held accountable it would be because he didn’t make us robots but instead made us free.
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Robert John Knight
He was never actually swallowed by the whale. A whales throat is about the size of a human fist, so it is physically impossible for a whale to swallow a human being. Science always wins.
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Rabbi Francine MacHotka
Not so fast there...
A Sperm Whale can swallow a human whole.
A Killer Whale can swallow a polar bear (they usually weigh significantly more than a human) and they eat other whales, too.
Whales don’t like humans so yes they will spit them out or vomit them out as was the case with Jonah.
Killer whales like to play with their food as they’re on the top of the food chain for the most part so swallowing and spitting/throwing their prey out is common for them just like bumping to stun their prey is also part of what they do. This man said he felt bumped so my guess is the Killer Whale not the Sperm Whale.
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TheStranger
This guy may have been accidentally caught in the whale's mouth as it was sweeping the water for food with its mouth open, but there's no physical way that he was "swallowed" by the whale. A humpback whale's throat is the size of a human fist. So, all you bible thumpers are once again left with your fairy tales. Read about it here: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/most-whales-cant-really-swallow-a-human-heres-why
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Robert John Knight
Thank you Claudia. I was beginning to think I was the only one who knew the whale never actually swallowed this guy. He was only in the whales mouth.
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Christopher Edward Smith
Whether the story of Jonah is true or fiction is not where my spirit is interested… I’m more joyed to know that the story true or false, represents the results of faith and a deliberate action. Packard survived because he made a decision to Live in that moment. He undoubtedly did it, with everything around him looking like a time to “fear”. I’m quite sure he was in fear but He & Gods will for him to live, overrode that. He did not give up once he realized where he was, he imagined himself being freed and freed he was!!! Today’s Mantra: “No matter what it looks like, I will NOT image Me dying, I WILL always imagine Me living” _ “So a Man thinketh” Continued 🧬 Love and Light 🌖☀️💫✨
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John Casillo
Regarding whale "story".......seems like the God of the bible really gets "pissed off" when he is not obeyed....almost child like tantrums...wondering if true...the universe may be no more than a number of child planet spinning toys....Rev. john
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Nevertheless Lisa, stranger things have happened...in the twilight zone. And, "Fairytales, can come true. They can happen to you, if you're young at heart". [Which could mean, as naive as children.]
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Reverend Lisa Smith
When I heard this story on the news. I thought WOW! This man actually survived this. Most people would have died just from the shock. I don't know if this was a miracle, or just a freak accident.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
There's one thing for sure. Jonah couldn't have had an air tank, without which he couldn't have survived longer than he could hold his breath. However, there could have been a crackpot named Jonah who dreamed in his sleep that he was in a whale for three days and nights, and when he woke up he believed it really happened. If it happened to me I'd surely have had a large knife, and would have been stabbing the beast. However, I'm much more likely to stay home, and watch Johnny Weissmuller battle rubber crocodiles, on old Tarzan movies. The largest body of water I'll ever get in anymore (since father Time took his toll on my legs and gut) is a bathtub. And I'm not likely to have even a rubber whale in my bath water. I'd be afraid of it scaring away my rubber ducky.
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Robert Wilson
Carl my rubber ducky left a long time ago. No whale no ducky no mirrors. Carl we have little in common.
Rev Robert Wilson. God bless your ducky
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Douglas Robert Spindler
This is a whale of a story.
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Kevan B Copelin
Was it about a whale swallowing Jonah, or Jonah’s transformation after such an experience, real or imagined?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
The goofballs who wrote the bible didn't do a good job of clarifying that, Kevan. They probably didn't care, as long as the story sold.
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Woodrow
what is your clarification of it?
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Lionheart
I’m glad that the ULC likens this story to a “tale from scripture”, which of course all those stories are in that old book that people like to follow believing them all to be true.
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Daniel Gray
Just remember Lion, that the same people who said this could not be true are the same people who are getting smacked upside their heads when the animals they claim are extinct suddenly pop up to say hello
The point being is that they have to take what they say on faith, just like what the people who believe it are doing....taking it on faith.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Watch out for Godzilla, Daniel. He might be right behind you. He heard you talking about him, at that Blue Oyster Cult concert, and he's really pissed!
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Daniel Gray
thats your worry Carl.
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Woodrow
It's okay Daniel, Lion only believes science.
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Lionheart
Of course I believe in science, along with logic and reason, and factual evidence. I'm totally happy to believe in what others are only relying on faith as long as they have demonstrable evidence to back up their belief with testable facts/evidence, but then it wouldn't be faith would it?
Those of us who have been vaccinated are relying on science too. Those of us who cross the road when that little green man glows green are also relying on science, and not faith, or we run the risk of being mowed down by a vehicle. Most everyone relies on science in one way or another to get them safely through life, even Woodrow does, unless it comes to those unproven fictional stories in that old book.
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Chaplain Shawn
Greetings Lionheart,
You claim to adhere to logic and reason. So, I will appeal to logic and reason. Logic teaches us that if faith is all that is relied upon, then there is a false dichotomy, which is a fallacy. If theism only promotes faith above anything else or considers faith only without any other alternatives (like reason), then all of theism collapses. The same occurs when only logic and reason is promoted.
So theists can create a false dichotomy by only promoting faith. The atheist creates a false dichotomy by promoting only reason. Since ULC is seeking to elicit intelligent conversation, it is on all of us to educate ourselves when discussing other worldviews. If not, as one person said; trolling occurs. Arguments from ignorance or arguments from emotional appeal are also informal fallacies. The general rule of thumb in philosophy is that if you make a claim against theism or atheism, then you need to substantiate that claim with appropriate and sufficient evidence. If you say it is because I say so, then your Stone Cold Steve Austin claim has no credibility. You need facts, not opinion. It is on these grounds atheism waivers. There are lots of unknowns, and athiesm will only philosophize so far. However, in vitro pregnancy was unheard of in the first century. Now, no one argues against the virgin birth. The parting of the Red Sea was performed in a lab on a small scale, and the right atmospheric conditions parted the waters. So, yes the Bible is an old book, but the historical accounts of war, rulers, kings, and empires are accurate and reliable. If we want to read a book concerning why humanity should be exterminated like the cockroaches/pests that we are; then you need to read the Bible. Man brought their own rape, murder, killing of pregnant women, killing of children, and misogyny themselves. Humanity never needed a God or gods to loudly and proudly showcase their evil. The history of the entire 20th century is proof of that. When God was dead, humans did some wicked things: Amin, Pol Pot, MK-Ultra and projects like it, Hitler, etc. Yes, sir Mister Lionheart, you need to hold humanity accountable for their historic evil before you point fingers to a higher power. However, you only prove that God exists because of your hatred of Him. The fact you acknowledge God through disbelief only supports that even you conceive of His existence. Therefore as a concept in your mind, you acknowledge His existence. Peace! If you disagree, then why would you want to be ordained through ULC? If it was for chaplaincy, then you and a few others are not realizing that chaplains minister to all worldviews. So, would you say to a Muslim who lost their family, sucks to be you and believe in Allah? Food for thought!
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Lionheart
As I have mentioned in a previous comment, atheists don’t say gods, fairies, elves, goblins, Sasquatch, etc., don’t exist, they say, until there is sufficient evidence to prove they do exist we have to assume they don’t. I’m assuming here that you too don’t think fairies, elves, goblins et all don’t exist….right? Thor? I realize neither of us have any evidence for their existence so, in your eyes, are we wrong thinking there’s a good possibility they don’t? Perhaps you think they do? 🤷🏼
As further “food” for thought my friend, is the Flying Spaghetti Monster real? 🤪
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Daniel Gray
I cant say for sure one way or another but as soon as you start to claim that something does not exist, then it will come back and prove you otherwise.
As for your Bigfoot reference, sorry but they DO exist. As I have said before I am a member of the Wolf Clan of the Cherokee Nation and there are stories about this creature going back over 2000 years BEFORE Europe knew North America existed. Just like scientists claimed the celocanth was extinct right up until there was a whole pack of them alive and healthy. Or these so called experts claiming that the megladon was extinct right up until the saw one swimming of South Africa that was bigger then the 55 foot sailboat it was beside.
The whole point Lion is that you cannot claim something does not exist unless you have absolute rock solid proof of same.
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Lionheart
I hope you are right Daniel. I really would like to see a fairy. From what I've seen in books they appear to be quite cute.
Yes, I am familiar with the "stories" about Bigfoot. I've read some stories recently about aliens from out of space taking people away. It's all possible I guess, but until there is more evidence, I guess they have to be locked away with all the other stories for the time being.
I'm not claiming your assumptions are wrong, or saying he is not real. Having said that, I hope you are wrong with your claim the biblical genocidal god is real, because from what I've read, he's a real bully. Fortunately, so far, he still appears to be a mythical figure unless you, or even your god, can prove the reality of his existence.
How's this for a deal, perhaps you can tell him to come and see me so that I can punch him on his nose for killing little children, and condoning slavery. Please tell him I can't wait all day, I'm getting older and I've asked others to do the same thing many months ago, but he doesn't seem able to do it. It's hardly surprising is it Daniel, and I think we all know why. If he can't do it for at least the last 2,000 years, he's not going to hurry now for anyone. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, he's perhaps very tired. He's got to be getting on in years now....right?
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Brien
And you cannot claim that something does excist unless you have rock solid evidence. Peace
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Daniel Gray
And the same goes for you brian, you cannot claim a deity does not exist unless you have rock solid proof that the deity does not exist, and you dont. Thats why its called FAITH. Locate a dictionary and look the word up
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Daniel Gray
You mean like the ones that developed adverse reactions to the vaccine? or the young people and children that are developing heart problems because of the vaccine?
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Lionheart
Yes, that’s correct Daniel. For the most part, medical science helped the majority of people. It would be nice if it helped everyone, wouldn’t it?
On the other hand you can rely 100% on your mythical god to see if he cares, which was all most people started doing before the availability of vaccines, which rapidly started to prove he/it couldn’t care less.
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Daniel Gray
you have yet to prove the deity I believe in is mythical. Thats just your opinion. And you know what they say about opinions...everyone has one and most of them stink
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Lionheart
You misunderstand Daniel, I’m saying your god is mythical because no one, not even you, or even your god, can has so far proved it exists, but hey, I’m happy to say it does exist if you can prove it. I will even be happy to say fairies exist if someone can demonstrate they do, so until then we have to assume that without demonstrable evidence fairies, elves, gods, gnomes etc don’t.
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Daniel Gray
I dont misunderstand at all. YOu say there is no diety and I say there is and BOTH of us have to take it on faith that we are right as the ONLY ones who can say for sure are not coming back from the dead and telling us. So your belief that there is no deity is just as much a faith based statement as my saying there is, is.
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Lionheart
You do misunderstand Daniel because I don’t say there is no deity, or no fairies, or no unicorns. What I do say is that until there is good demonstrable evidence for gods, fairies, and unicorns we have to assume they don’t exist. Do you believe in fairies and unicorns, and if so, why?
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Daniel Gray
I dont misunderstand anything. If you are going to claim there isnt a deity then prove it. For example I can scientifically prove the big bang never happened. For instance anyone with any sense cannot say that the whole universe was compressed to the size of a head of a pin. And newtons law clearly states that anything at rest will stay at rest, as will anything in motion will stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside source. Now since the whole universe was supposed to be condensed, then what was it that caused it to explode? It should not have happened as everything in the universe was condensed so there should have been nothing to cause it to explode. I have already made this argument to other atheists and watched their heads spin as they tried to figure a way out of this problem.
Same thing here. You dont believe and I do and since neither one of us has any solid proof, we both are acting on faith.
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Lionheart
You still don't see it do you? I am NOT claiming there isn't a deity. I am NOT claiming Fairies don't exists. I an NOT claiming unicorns don't exist. What I am saying Daniel is that those who claim there IS a deity, fairies, unicorns, gnomes, elves et al show us the evidence.
Regarding your statement on the universe, no one knows what caused it to "explode"..... if that is what happened. Could it have been a fairy? 🤪
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Daniel Gray
you know what happens when you "assume" dont you?
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Brien
Yes, as opposed to those who only believe in fiction 😉
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Daniel Gray
you have yet to prove its fiction....
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Brien
The burden is not upon me to prove fiction, the burden is upon you to prove fact. Since you cannot prove faith as fact, my assertion of fiction stands...peace
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Daniel Gray
Yes it is. You claimed it was fiction, so now you have to prove it.
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Brien
If you are claiming that snake oil myths created to brainwash people as fact, then it is YOU that needs to show facts. I am not asking for a book full, I am just asking for 1 (one) verifiable FACT about any if the "Gods" that are used to instill fear and brainwash people. I have asked this all of my life and the only responses that I have received come straight out of the fictional books that are almost always referred to as "God's " word, or whatever deity label you use. Look, I can tell you a basic fact about these barbaric beliefs......they are responsible for some of the most HORRIFIC acts against humanity spanning more than a thousand years. So, your turn. Name 1 verifiable fact to convince me that is not snake oil brainwashing. Peace ✌☮
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Daniel Gray
just saying it Brian does not mean it isnt true. Since you claimed it wasnt true then I challenge you to prove it!
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Brien
Dan, all you are doing now is trolling for a response. The acts against humanity done in the name of a fictional god span at least a thousand years of verifiable proof, up to this very day. Yet not one single verifiable fact can be produced to prove that these "beliefs" are anything more than brainwashing. An easy way to avoid responsibility for actions committed, say that it is "god's" will. Now, as far as this person being scooped up by this giant, yes, it is possible. It may have confused all the bubbles for the tiny critters it normally eats, the diver was just in the center of it. Please, do not respond unless you are doing so with a fact to prove whatever mythical being you are trying to protect. Peace ☮️
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Daniel Gray
No brian, you made a claim and I am challenging you to back it up with proof. Whats wrong cant do it or just afraid to admit that this is YOUR OPINION and you cant base it on fact. I cant base my beliefs on fact either thats why its called faith, but I have never come along and said what you believe in if anything is wrong. Only you and others who cant back up their statement do that.
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Brien
Sorry but I've already given you more time than I give most crazy brainwashed people. I will not discuss anything with you as all you do is deflect and troll. If you truly believe that your deity is real, then your deity is responsible for genocide and needs to be prosecuted. Done
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Daniel Gray
Just as I thought. YOU make a claim and then when challenged to prove it you run away like a scalded dog.
If you cant back up your claims then dont be stupid and make them as someone somewhere is going to challenge you on them. Or are you going to run away your whole life when challenged?
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Brien
You sir are just pitiful. You have admitted that you have no facts and yet you carry on as if you do. My 10 year old nephew can formulate a better debate. He will use facts to make his case. If you wish to "have faith" in the fictional, I put you that there are better fictional stories available. Peace ☮️
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Daniel Gray
No the pitiful one is you trying to spin and fail. I have seen posts of yours in other threads claiming that the belief in a christian God is a myth and giving no proof, and here you go again making claims and when checked on, you refuse to provide anything to back you up.
Or did you miss the little sentence I put in there saying that this was FAITH. Just like Buddists and Jews and Muslums and so on who believe in a deity and yet have no proof to prove the deity exists except their FAITH that the deity exists.
You are pathetic Brian, you make a statement and then get caught lying or not admitting that its YOUR opinion and then you run away leaving a yellow trail calling names over your shoulder. How old are you? 5?
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Brien
First, learn how to spell my name, second, I personally could care less what phony deity you believe in. I care when the fiction is used as fact. There is a couple of thousand years of verifiable acts against humanity in the name of one sick fantasy or another. You simply cannot blink that away. But if that is what gets you going so be it. To me, you will always be a worthless, brainwashed person who's opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. Peace ☮️
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Daniel Gray
Nope I give back the stupidity of the post and 99% of the time the people making stuff up like you have done just dont like it when they are made to look foolish.
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Brien
You have given nothing but your obvious deflect tactics. You already admitted you have no facts to back up any claim that the mythical being is anything more than brainwashing. I have offered over a thousand years of history that has recorded death and destruction in the name of one myth or another. I understand that you and those like you will never admit to any wrong doing that those organized brainwashed groups have done against humanity, the hate and divisions people that believe as you do have sewn into society, and the complete denial of all of it. Because you stick your head in the sand and refuse to see reality or even use facts to see the truth, does not make all that history vanish. It simply makes you look ignorant and foolish. Like I said before, I simply do not care what you believe in, I do not care about your brainwashed opinion either. The foolish beliefs in myths are finally losing grip on society. It will be a much better world without them. I usually sign off with peace, but you are not capable of that.
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Daniel Gray
well you have already proved you are a liar Brian as you said earlier that you were done, and yet here you are still trying to ague a point and make a claim that you CANT prove as fact according to you. And then you wonder why the rumbling you hear isnt thunder, but laughter at your ignorance and your spinning in trying to get out of a hole of your own making.
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Tom
Well here you go, Dan: https://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-bible-is-fiction-a-collection-of-evidence/
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Daniel Gray
yea right, you get one ignorant person making a claim and you want to use it as a source? Your Daniel Miessler is nothing more then a high paid IT person "Daniel Miessler is the Director of Advisory Services at IOActive and has 17 years of experience in information security." And we are supposed to take his claims as fact? Nice try but no dice.
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Woodrow
There should be no burden on anyone.
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CB Cuff
The first story, Jonah's, was, well, a story to add to the big Story Book. I suppose Mr. Packard's cell phone wouldn't have worked even if he had the time to send a Mayday. He's home safe, that's all that matters.
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Daniel Gray
first most cell phones are not saltwater proof. Second the skin and bone around the whales mouth would block the signal, and third how was he supposed to reach his cell phone when the whale was trying to swallow him and squeezing him to get him down the whales throat? And who has time to think about a cell phone when you are attempting to be eaten?
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
He could have stuck an antenna through the whale's spout, if he could find it. People ought to carry survival kits with them when they go diving. With the right stuff he could have really lived it up in that belly.
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Daniel Gray
guess you didnt read the story Carl, his arms were being squeezed to his sides. So hows he going to first find the blowhole and second I dont remember scuba divers carrying cell phone antennas.
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CB Cuff
The cell phone bit was a joke... you walked right into it.
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Daniel Gray
Yea I showed how silly he was for posting it.
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John Anderson
Also, cetaceans (whales, dolphins, and their relatives) are not like terrestrial mammals. Their respiratory system doesn't directly connect with their digestive one, which allows them to eat without drowning. He would not have been able to find the blowhole from the throat, without a knife, because there's no connection.
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Woodrow
i guess you have bad reception because you have it covered with clothes.skin and bone. by cell phones bone can be penetrated and skin. and clothes
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Daniel Gray
WOW and I guess you didnt read the story where he was being SQUEEZED meaning he couldnt move his arms or hands as they were being SQUEEZED at his sides. SO how are you supposed to use a cell phone when you are nowhere near a tower and you cant get to it even if you had one.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Perhaps he could have used telekinesis, and thought projeçtion. I believe I heard he was a Rosicrucian.
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Daniel Gray
really? and you are so sure of this that you can prove it? Or are you trying to be sarcastic and doing a very bad job of it.
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Carl Bernard Elfstrom
Haven't you ever heard of a cell phone headset, Daniel?
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Daniel Gray
and exactly how is he going to activate the headset as you still have to push a button and when your arms are squeezed to your sides you cant push anything with your hands.
Are you really that desperate to try and use this obvious false statement?
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Rev. Jonathan Peebles
It wasn't a miracle he just did not taste so good; I mean humans don't taste so good to whales as most animals do not like eating us unless there desperate. Even sharks think a person is a sea lion or something and do not like people regardless of there bad reputation but how does he confuse getting being eaten by a huge whale with a smaller shark and not ripped to shreds? Typical...
The Bible says that God prepaired a great fish for for this task (Jonah 1:17). It doesn't matter exactly what fish was used, what matters is what is said in Matthew 19:26 & Mark 10:27; "With God, all things are possible". This is why believers believe this story of Jonah is taught as true fact. If God wanted a whale to swallow Jonah and barf him up on the shores of Nineveh where he was supposed to be going in the first place to Evangelize, then the will of the Lord will be done.