An NHL player is facing backlash for refusing to participate in his team’s Pride Night, held to support the LGBTQ community.
Citing his Russian Orthodox faith, Philadelphia Flyers defenseman Ivan Provorov declined to wear a Pride-themed jersey or use a stick wrapped in rainbow Pride tape during pregame warmups.
Provorov did go on to play in the game, but faced intense criticism online for his decision to boycott the Pride event. Some are even calling for him to be suspended over the incident.
Not Feeling the Rainbow
Although some noticed Provorov’s absence during pregame warmups, it wasn’t until the postgame interview that things started heating up. Reporters asked Provorov why he hadn’t been present and here’s what he had to say:
The Flyers head coach John Tortorella defended his player, saying that was simply “being true to himself and his religion.” Responded to calls for a suspension of some sort, Tortorella added that it would be “unfair” to bench Provorov for his beliefs.
Critics Cry Foul
Almost immediately after the game, however, users on social media lambasted Provorov for his refusal to participate. Many described it as “homophobic” and “ignorant.”
Some argued that it was hypocritical to claim to “respect everyone” and then boycott Pride Night.
Still others insisted that Provorov shouldn’t have been allowed to play in the game:
Face-Off Over Inclusivity
This incident is only the latest in a series of issues surrounding LGBTQ causes in the NHL. These clashes have pitted the progressive views of the NHL league office against the more conservative views of its players and fans.
The NHL recently hosted a hockey tournament exclusively for transgender and nonbinary players, prompting backlash from some hockey fans. In response, the league made its stance clear:
The NHL has also faced allegations of hiring discrimination after it held a job fair event in Florida that appeared to discourage white people from attending.
"Participants must be 18 years of age or older, based in the U.S., and identify as female, Black, Asian/Pacific Islander, Hispanic/Latino, Indigenous, LGBTQIA+, and/or a person with a disability. Veterans are also welcome and encouraged to attend," the event’s description read. The event page was later amended to clarify that anyone could attend.
What do you make of all this? Should religious employees be allowed to skip company-sponsored Pride events?
How will the NHL balance its progressive values with a fanbase that may not be open to those same views?
197 comments
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Robert Edward Szekely
I am getting so tired of hearing the excuse of "my religion doesn't permit me to support gay people". That's bull, plain and simple. These are purported Christians hiding behind Jesus to justify their bigotry, and trying to rationalize their way out of it.
Either that, or they're really just plain stupid, thinking that God keeps creating gay people just so that these nimrods can keep saying "God says that you must keep them away from me because I follow Christ".
//END OF RANT//
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Daniel Gray
And I am getting so tired of hearing people like you whining because others dont accept your sexual habits. If they dont want to do it then they dont have to and there isnt anything you should be able to complain about. I mean get real, how can you complain they dont accept a gay person and then turn right around and be a hypocrite by not accepting the simple fact that they may not agree with you. If you want them to accept you then you must also accept the simple fact they may not agree with your lifestyle. Grow up
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Robert Edward Szekely
First off, I'm not gay. Second, LGBTQ+ people are not about "sexual habits" and more than the CISgender hetero majority are. Third, it's not whining to speak out against disingenuous hypocrisy and doublespeak masking bigotry behind religion.
Your argument is like saying that those who supported South African apartheid when it still existed were entitled to their opinion and therefore should have been exempt from criticism, because it was a sincerely held belief.
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Daniel Gray
then why are you whining like you are? How again can you refuse to accept people not wanting to believe this is anything but a lifestyle, and then turn right around and attack them for not accepting lbgtq people? Either you accept their decision or you dont. But you DO NOT get to then try and attack them for not accepting this lifestyle.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Clearly, you use the term "whining" far too loosely: speaking out for truth and reason is anything but whining. If you think people who are LQBTQI+ are a lifestyle, it makes it crystal clear that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. "Lifestyle" implies choice. Why would anyone "choose" to a member of persecuted minority? I can refuse to accept the beliefs of people that are based on ignorance and prejudice very easily. Furthermore, there is no rationale that justifies not accepting LGBTQI people, just because they differ from common cultural norms, which is truly the foundational point here.
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Daniel Gray
Clearly I use it correctly. and if you cant see the conflict of what you are saying, demanding that a person accept a choice and then refusing to allow them the same choice not to accept it, never mind that its against the law and a violation of the US Constitution. Or the contract he signed does not and never has said that he must wear a gay pride shirt/jersey...then there is no sense in speaking with you as by your own posts its your ideas or the highway. And if you dont think its a lifestyle choice, then try telling that to Barry Manilow or Elton John or Rebel Wilson Chrishell Stause Carl Nassib Colton Underwood Elliott Page Demi Lovato Sir Ian McKellen Caitlyn Jenner Wanda Sykes Ricky Martin Cynthia Nixon Ellen DeGeneres George Takei Cynthia Nixon Jodie Foster Anderson Cooper Don lemon Richard Chamberlain Meredith Baxter Jane Lynch Robin Roberts Dick Sargent Jim Nabors
ALL of which decided that they were gay. Nice try but you have just proved you dont know what you are talking about yet again
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Robert Edward Szekely
And when did all of these people TELL YOU they "chose to be" gay. "Coming out" is not "choosing to be gay", it means they stop being secretive about what they already were. If you actually got to know anyone who is LGBTQI+ (which from your arguments, it is clear you don't) you'd learn that sometimes for them, it is awakening--a recognition of something inside of them they've been denying for years, because SOCIETY TELLS THEM THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM FOR FEELING THAT WAY!
Imagine how you would feel if you were born with blue eyes, and society determined that blue-eyed people were intellectually inferior, and so should be denied both the right to vote and citizenship. You'd be asking yourself why you had to be born with blue-eyes, and would try to hide them with hoods and sunglasses, or colored contacts, wherever and whenever you could. Maybe, you'd think, "My eyes are really blue--they're hazel. I'm not inferior, am I? I should be able to vote and have the rights of a citizen (like all non-blue eyed people) shouldn't I?"
Stop acting like a bloody troglodyte. The shadows on the wall of the cave ARE NOT REALITY.
You make an assertion without evidence to support it. [BTW, it's "all of WHOM", not "all of WHICH", you luddite!]
Just because I don't support your argument and you respond with "you have just proved [correct grammar is "proven"] you dont [missing an apostrophe between the "n" and the "t", which is a contraction of "do not"] know what you are talking about yet again [missing period at end of sentence]." Doesn't make your assertion a fact.
You present subjective assertions as facts, but provide no support. I will not abide by your lies and your distortions of reality to support these delusions you keep repeating as though repetition will make them real. It will not.
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Daniel Gray
When ALL of them to a person have said in repeated interviews that they were tired of dating the opposite sex. I mean take manilow for instance and Elton John. BOTH of which were planning on getting married and Manilow already did and has kids that he produced from a normal way of doing it...ie male female relations. So I guess since this destroys your whine you are now going to call all of these people liars because they did exactly what I said they did? and admitted it?
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James Riggle-Johnson
None of those people "DECIDED" to be anything. They didn't become gay, they always were gay. The decided to come out and admit to their fans who they were.
You don't understand it at all Daniel.
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Daniel Gray
You are right, you dont understand at all. I suppose you are now going to call Rob Halford a liar as well? Or Pete Townshed? BOTH of which admitted in the musical magazine the rolling stones, that even though they both had been married and Rob was a grandfather and a great grandfather, they decided to play with the other team. but hey go ahead and believe what you wish but just remember the thunder you hear is people laughing AT you not with you
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Tom
Your ignorance is staggering, Daniel.
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Daniel Gray
yes Tom your ignorance is staggering.....show us where please that ANY contract says you must wear a gay pride pin or jersey.....I will wait and see how you make this crap up. And as for the people I mentioned that suddenly decided to claim they were gay, ok then if they were always gay as you claimed then exactly WHY did they wait so long to say it. I am sure you will have some excuse on why I eagerly await the nonsense you will try to push
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Tom
Sorry for not being clear. I wasn't commenting on the contract status since I haven't seen his contract. I was commenting solely on your incorrect and ignorant belief that those people you listed "decided that they were gay" at some point.
As for why they waited so long, Robert Edward Szekely has already answered that in a previous comment but I'll copy and paste the most relevant statement: "'Coming out' is not 'choosing to be gay', it means they stop being secretive about what they already were. If you actually got to know anyone who is LGBTQI+ (which from your arguments, it is clear you don't) you'd learn that sometimes for them, it is awakening--a recognition of something inside of them they've been denying for years, because SOCIETY TELLS THEM THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM FOR FEELING THAT WAY!"
In other words, they didn't come out as gay sooner because it was not acceptable to be gay in our society until quite recently and doing so would threaten your professional career and possibly your life if you were openly gay in the wrong part of the country.
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Daniel Gray
I guess you are more then a tad upset when the words out of their own mouth say you are ignorant in this subject.
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Robert Edward Szekely
whining /ˈ(h)wīniNG/ Learn to pronounce noun the making of a long, high-pitched cry or sound. "dogs may exhibit signs of anxiety, such as whining, chewing, and excessive barking" adjective making or characterized by a long, high-pitched cry or sound. "a whining voice"
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Daniel Gray
yes, just like the ones who are doing all the complaining and refuse to believe the words of the people mentioned that came directly from them.
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Mary Haviland
It is whining when you just want to get your way, and your way is degrading society. If your not winning then you would keep your ideas to yourself
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Robert Edward Szekely
If by "getting your way", you mean that I won't stand silently by and accept lies, propaganda and bigotry without challenge - then yes.
It is not whining.
It isn't about "getting my way", and it is not "degrading society". You do not speak for society, nor can any rational human being imagine that you would have any understanding of society as a whole, based on your words.
And by the same token, I can flip your own argument back on you as well: if you are not winning because you want to get YOUR way, then maybe you should keep your [hypocritical, bigoted, disingenuous, dogmatic] ideas TO YOURSELF.
Touché.
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Robert Edward Szekely
It has been argued generations past that men growing their hair long or women wearing pants would be the downfall of civil society.
Turns out that that predicted collapse into anarchy did not occur in either case. Hmmmm....could there possibly be a lesson to learn here, perhaps?
Those people were just as convinced as those arguing here today that showing symbolic solidarity with "Gay Pride" by wearing the rainbow colors will somehow "degrade society".
Is the sky falling again, Chicken Little?
Heaven forbid we demonstrate support of equal rights for our LGBTQIA+ brothers, sisters, sons and daughters, eh?
Did somebody hear whispers that the illuminati designed rainbow-motifed sweaters and jerseys to mysteriously transform heterosexuals into homosexuals?
Maybe there's a hidden failsafe built-in to rainbow shirts that turns humans into unicorns if you wear one when its against your religion?
That would explain it: Provorov was afraid of being turned into a unicorn!!
;)
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JaZe
Obviously the guy is not comfortable joining gay whatever, millions of people arent. Why should he be forced to? You call him biased then call for his punishment! Isnt that being biased?
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Robert Edward Szekely
His actions did not match his words. Provarov said "I respect everyone", and subsequently show disrespect to the effort by his team to show solidarity with gay pride by playing the game but not showing the rainbow colors on his stick or in his attire.
That isn't "joining gay whatever". And it isn't showing "respect", either.
When a gentile man attends a Jewish wedding ceremony, he's offered and expected to don the traditional Jewish head covering (the yarmulke/kippah) at least while in attendance at the ceremony, as a sign of respect for Jewish tradition.
If he does not feel comfortable wearing the yarmulke/kippah for this short period, he can also demonstrate respect by declining to attend the wedding ceremony.
However, should he attend the wedding ceremony and then decline to wear the yarmulke/kippah, then he is in fact showing DISRESPECT.
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REV PGH MA
You were good up until your example. Attending a wedding is a choice while having your workplace dictate your wear is not. Let's flip this a bit. What if an employer of a Hasidic Jew forced the man to wear a rainbow yarmulke to work? I don't think that would fly in the Hasidic community. Personally, I would and have worn a rainbow shirt in support of LGBTQ+ but I do not feel that an employer, which the NHL is, should force anyone to wear anything that violates religious beliefs unless it is for safety reasons. The Russian Orthodox Church is very anti LGBTQ+. The NHL cannot legally deny him employment as a hockey player based on his religion. Fans can choose not to buy merchandise with his name on it.
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Robert Edward Szekely
First off, do you know of any Hasidic Jews playing in the NHL? I think that would create more significant problems such as not being able to play games from Friday to Saturday nights, the special dietary rules of kashrut (kosher) where they can't eat pork (e.g., bacon, ham), where they can't mix dairy and meat) no cheesburgers), and they can't even use utensils that have been previously used to handle non-Kosher foods, even if they've been washed and sanitized.
Hasidic jews are pretty much a closed community like the Amish. They tend not to be employed by Gentiles (non-Jews), so they example provided is highly unlikely.
However, looking at from another perspective, a Jew (Chasidim or Orthodox) might choose to and enjoy wearing a rainbow kippah (yarmulke) in celebration of the Divine promise it represented to humankind as it appeared in the sky after the Biblical flood. If it also happens to represent support for what essentially constitutes "equal rights for gays", what's the harm? God would be the ultimate judge in that case, not man. Supporting equal rights for one's fellow human beings does not make the supporter gay just because those they support are gay.
If all humankind are God's children and God loves all of humankind, then gay people are loved by God because they are also part of humankind. So they why are other humans discriminating against their fellow humans in the name of God? If God loves, should we not love? And does love not include support? Does support not include support for equal rights in love and marriage? Otherwise, what is equality? Equality only for heterosexuals is not true equality, but discrimination against those who are not heterosexuals. The fact that gay people are different does not make them wrong, perverse or any less deserving of love, support and equal rights from their fellow human beings who love differently than they do. Life is change. Change is inevitable as long as we live. These arguments against the support of LGBTQIA+ rights (which is the true underlying thread) are based on past ignorance being perpetuated without any true rational reflection.
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Robert Edward Szekely
It sounds to me then that Russian Orthodox is a bad religion that needs to be abandoned, not respected. It's 2023, not 1623. We need to be better than that. No all beliefs are of equal value. Cannibals, for example?
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Robert Edward Szekely
No one asked the main to "join gay whatever", only show solidarity for their equal rights. And I for one, am not calling for punishment, only honesty. He's clearly a closet homophobe, but doesn't want to own it.
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Mary Haviland
I don't care what your tired if hearing. It is not bull. What is bull is that you perverts try to push your perversions over on other people and try to make everybody else agree with your perversion. We are not here to agree with y'all if you evil perverse people. You want to be perverted, do it in private and keep it to yourself and don't hurt it involve others into your perversions
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Maximillian Martin
You might want to think about what you said. The biggest perversion is abrahamic religions!! Nothing but lies and slavery!!!
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Robert Edward Szekely
What "perversions" do you refer to? Homosexuality exists in nature, and nature is God's creation. Are you saying it is a perversion to merely acknowledge the existence and rights of those who have been created different by God? Has it never occurred to you it may be a test by God of your ability to love those different than yourself? What is the perversion here is to shun others of God's children claiming that it was God that told you so. If you purport that you are a Christian, it is not among Christ's teachings--you're citing Levitical and Deuteronomical prohibitions which applied to the priestly classes and the nations of Israel (Jews and descendants of Aaron and Cohen) telling them what THEY should not do to remain pure. It was Christ's edict to "love thine neighbor as thyself". Hypocrite! It is you and those like you who have perverted the teachings of the God you profess to worship to justify your unloving bigotry towards differences of nature (not choice) that you would rather not accept. Have the courage at least to come out and own your bigotry, instead of hiding behind God as justification.
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Pastor Jody S.
Sigh! Well, here we go again.
Another individual hiding behind faith in order to hate.The simple fact is that people that do this kind of thing make God into a hateful monster that punishes individuals that they do not want to even attempt to understand.
God is Love. He does not hate that which He has made. That is biblical - hate is not, and we are specifically told, several times in the Gospels, not to judge others.Judgement was given, by the Father, to the Son. Our job is simple - Love others as we love ourselves.
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Lionheart
But isn’t your god a hateful monster, Jody? Look at all the people he killed during his genocide of the flood, if it really happened, which most doubt. That would have included young children, babies, and pregnant mothers. Then there are the children of the first born that he killed. Then there is his condoning of slavery, and also of stoning people to death. Doesn’t sound like a god of love to me. Fortunately, there is no demonstrable evidence that he is real anyway. 🤷🏼
🦁❤️
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REV PGH MA
So you attack hate with hate. You make atheists and agnostics look bad.
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Lionheart
Sorry if you hate facts taken from that story book, PGH. I'm also sorry if you are one of those that's been indoctrinated to the point that you think it's ok thinking that it all really happened, and that it's ok if it did.
The only thing I hate is the indoctrination of such rubbish to children, in an attempt to convince them that it's all true. That's mental abuse.
🦁♥️
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Mark Hannon
Brings back memories of all the people I had to avoid while I participated for a short time in an evangelical church. I remember we weren't supposed to buy tickets from Shriners raising money because of the pagan Masonic stuff. Of course, my father was a Shriner and of the Scottish order of Masons. I have all his books, papers and FEZ and I'm quite proud of them.
It was a good day dumping that group.
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flugo
Finally, Provorov, an athlete with backbone!
A backbone to live his Christian convictions. A backbone to take a stand against the abnormal, perverted, amoral, abominable LGBTQxyz lifestyle of these 'rainbow rogues'. A backbone to side with the holy God of the universe, instead of with the wicked god of this world.
What a fine example of manhood he demonstrates to the sports youth of the day! Good on him!
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Robert Edward Szekely
That isn't backbone, it's disingenuous hypocrisy. It's doublespeak, calling "bigotry", "religion". A turd is still a turd, even if I call it rose. And it won't smell as sweet as a rose, either.
Let's not forget the wars the Catholic Church waged in centuries past against "deviant" Christian sects in efforts to eliminate the "evils" of heresy. Just because something is claimed to be done in the name of "religion" does exempt it from challenge or scrutiny, or automatically make it right or justified.
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Dorothy Anne Howard
Leave the guy alone! His decision to not be in the pride event is between him and his God. But..I don’t know of any God/higher power that tells us to speak down on others the way some are doing in these posts..if you believe then you know you’ll have a judgement day , if you don’t that’s ok too. Live and let live. No need for prejudice. As being gay is not contagious! Why argue?
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Robert Edward Szekely
By playing in the game, but not supporting the "Pride Event" (by wearing the rainbow colors or wrapping his stick in them) he sent the message that he was not a member of the team.
Since he didn't simply choose not to play in the game, instead making a spectacle of himself that night by breaking ranks with his team and thus showing disunity, he was a hypocrite by Jesus' own definition.
Nobody seems to be willing to acknowledge that he just could have chosen to have silently bowed out of playing that night. That still would have fulfilled the purported religious convictions he claimed.
No, what he did was disingenuous. He did not fully commit to what he claimed to believe in. If he had been sincere, he would not have played that night, and we wouldn't be having this debate.
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Pastor H. F. Beere
First of being lgbtq+ is a choice just as the choice to be straight. I DO NOT JUDGE PEOPLE for being lgbtq+ just as I don’t judge because of someones skin color but when it’s forced upon someone like this hockey player it’s against his religion. We all have our beliefs and if the LGBTQ+ community wants to be respected it should not be forced upon people. Respect is a two way street. You want people to respect your beliefs then respect theirs also when it comes to their religion. I because of my religion have some different opinions then other ministers of ULC. But the first part of our groups name is universal which means we have ministers of all beliefs maybe even some we don’t know of. But my point is simple let people believe in what they believe! should they discriminate because their belief is different ABSOLUTELY NOT! We as a society need to go make to the golden rule “do unto others as you would want them to do unto you!”
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Robert Edward Szekely
"Being LQBTQ+" is not a choice any more than being black or latinx or indigenous american.
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Clay Serenbetz
There are a surprising number of people judging how their God created human beings different from themselves. You lump people into little categories irrespective of the accuracy of such terms. You throw around these derogatory terms to justify your hate, but you just assume such words are accurate. It makes your hate look ignorant, which is not pretty.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Pastor H. F. Beere How is being lgbtq+ a choice? You do realize that 1 out of every 175 births results in a person not being slight to major sex difference either physical or mentally. Just as people or not one of two heights, sex is a spectrum between male female or neither.
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Colleen McAllister
There are people who choose the LGBTQ lifestyle. They are a minority. The vast majority were born that way.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Colleen McAllister There people who choose the LGBTQ lifestyle, weren't they born to make that choice?
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Robert Edward Szekely
And what of those people born intersex (hermaphroditic). Their sex is determined without their consent shortly after birth, before their gender identity has asserted itself. That is a decision made without the consent of the individual whom it effects, and is not always the right choice.
Choice - an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.
Do we--as the heteronormative majority--necessarily choose whom we happen to fall in love with (This does not include shotgun weddings)?
Then why do we assume that the LGBTQI+ minority do?
For all the arguments I've seen here against, I doubt anyone making these arguments has ever discussed with an actual queer (LGBTQI+) individual what causes that person to find members of their own sex attractive to them; when they became aware that they were not (strictly) hetero; or when they become aware that their gender-identity did not align with their physical sex.
All of these arguments condemning LGBTQI+ persons show a significant and distinct lack of compassion and empathy to other human beings simply because they are different.
Shame on you! Shame on you all - you atavistic primates!
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Robert Edward Szekely Well state. But I would like to make one correction. From the time of conception all humans are female. It's not until 10 weeks have passed that we drift away from being female.
For those of you who do not know what it is like to be a women with balls and a penis your entire life I would like to encourage you to watch two TED talks from women who thought all women had balls and a penis until they were in their late teens.
https://www.ted.com/talks/molly_webster_the_weird_history_of_the_sex_chromosomes
https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_the_way_we_think_about_biological_sex_is_wrong?language=en
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Robert Edward Szekely
What exactly constitutes this "LGBTQ lifestyle" that everyone keeps referring to, anyway?
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Colleen McAllister
I disagree with the beliefs of Ivan Provorov but he has the right to follow those beliefs. If he felt that participation in the pregame program violated those beliefs then he did the right thing. It would be quite different if Ivan had worn or displayed signage calling LGBTQ people sinners or condemning them, but he did not. I say leave him alone. No punishment is needed.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Those "beliefs" are not "sincerely held religious" beliefs, but bigotry masquerading as religion. And bigotry should neither be respected or tolerated. Ever. We once justified slavery based on the Bible. That didn't make it any less morally wrong.
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Colleen McAllister
Robert who gave you the right to say anyone else's beliefs are not sincerely held? You are being quite prejudicial yourself.
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Robert Edward Szekely
What about Nazis who "sincerely believed" that Jews were inferior? What about the days of Jim Crow when people "sincerely believed" that Negroes were inferior? Prejudice and bigotry hiding behind religion or politics or anything else are never worthy of respect, and must, in the name of truth, be exposed for what they are: insidious lies.
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Lady Celynia
The past is the past and we have learned from it. Today, you are reading quite a lot into a few lines of text. Unless you know this person quite well, you cannot say what he believes. For all you know he is deeply saddened by his convictions but feels he has no choice except to be true to himself.
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Robert Edward Szekely
We have not learned our lessons from the past if we still tolerate prejudice when it hides behind the veil of religion.
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Scott Guerin
I believe being gay isnt a choice. Being part of an organization LGBTQ+ is a choice. Getting a sex change or excuse me " Gender Reassignment" surgery is definitely a choice. A person can't be openly accepting of the community unless they are showing their support. If they dont demonstrate they are accepting or promote the community, they are a bigot and should be punished. Sad,...very sad people. My gay friends don't look down on me just because I won't let them dress me up as a queen or wear the colors. You just can't do anything anymore without being criticized from one side or another. Look at what we have all become.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Saying that 'getting gender reassignment surgery is a choice' isn't necessarily true, any more than saying that 'suicide is a choice.'
Showing support of the LGBTQIA+ is being openly accepting of them as equal human beings with equal human rights. You don't have to dress up as a drag queen to support the community.
The Rainbow Flag is deeper than simply a symbol representing "Gay Rights". It represents the whole diversity of humanity in all creeds, colors, philosophies, sexual orientations and gender identities: as in all being equally being entitled to the same human and legal rights and equitable treatment.
Wearing a Rainbow Flag icon means inclusively supporting the vast diversity of humanity equally in all respects: both outlier minorities (such as the LGBTQIA+ community) and the preferred majority (the hetero-normative culture).
This symbol is about fundamental human rights and equal treatment. It's about unified humanity without segregating certain groups into categories of "other than us", but rather viewing people holistically as "We" - both gay/queer and CIS-hetero: not "us" and "them".
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Robert Edward Szekely
Showing solidarity for LGBTQIA+ rights has nothing to do with supporting any organization.
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
When did Jesus say, Love your neighbor like yourself ... except for gays? The hypocrisy that is Christianity needs to stop!
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Mary Haviland
When Jesus said to your your neighbor as your self, if dis not refer to sexually, as sexually is not necessary live. Sex is an action that can and is done rather there is love or not. People keep mixing up sexuality with love. And that wasn't the kind of live Jesus was talking about. Neither he nor his father was talking about carnal stuff. That's why he wasn't talking about sexuality and that is why being him and trans us a perversion
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Robert Edward Szekely
Hey, Jesus! You think you can weigh in on this one here?
Although we know there can be love without sex (agape) and sex without love (eros), where and when did you say that transgender (FKA transsexual) people were a perversion, and as such, are exempt from being loved as a brother or sister in God, and therefore, should be ostracized, persecuted, and treated with loathing and derision?
There are a lot of people trying to put words in Your Mouth down here.....
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Colleen McAllister
Matthew not all Christians are like that. I grew up with many gays around me. Never were any of them treated any differently because of their sexual preferences. I grew up in a Christian home where the Bible was God's word. Period. I was also taught that this world is not perfect therefore we need to tolerate others beliefs while witnessing of our own faith by our actions.
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William Moses
I think we can all agree that no one is born feeling one way or the other about this issue. They have to be taught. And I thought we all agreed that the misinterpretation of the translations of the Bible are the root cause of why they have been taught that homosexuality is a sin. So if that is the case, his failure to respect, and even support, gay rights is rooted in misinformation. If he is an intelligent, reasonable person, he should be willing to undo that misunderstanding and turn his reluctance into acceptance.
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Margarita R
Hi. Generally, I avoid these discussions as people tend to have strong opinions and tend to use opinion as fact. I just wanted to clarify the US as a Christian nation issue and add some color to the LGBTQ discussion.
Regardless of what you wish to believe, the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796, establishes that the US was not founded as a Christian nation. Here is Article 11 which stipulates this point:
Article 11 One of the most important parts of the Treaty of Tripoli has very little to do with the treaty's outcome. Article 11 of the treaty states:
''As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Columbus never set foot on the US, so his objectives have no basis on the future US as the colonies were established independently of Columbus and by another country. The original founders were escaping religious persecution, which is why our Constitution guarantees that the government will not establish a national religion.
As for the LGBTQ discussion, being LGBTQ is not a choice. It is not a sexual preference. It is a sexual orientation you are born with. People are just born this way. It is not a perversion. It is not a psychological or mental condition. It isn't something that can be changed. It is who they are. Just like being heterosexual is who I am. I was born this way.
Having gay family, I can attest that they were born this way and they knew it since they can remember. They are not perverse in any way, shape or form.
Being LGBTQ is not a societal construct and should not be treated as such. They are just like everyone else.
Respectfully, Margarita
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
If the event is a contractual obligation then he can be fined. If not, well, there’s your proof he’s a religiously delusional prick. Doesn’t matter to me as I don’t watch hockey and don’t know the guy.
Now, if I were the owner of the team and had a way of totally destroying his career, maybe….
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Daniel Gray
No he cant be fined. Just like the ones who refuse to stand for the national anthem cant be fined. Nice try but a major load of BS from you trying to justify why he should be punished for his views.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@Gray… Can you READ??? Do you have even a remote understanding of the conditional grammar structures? I said….
IF the event is a contractual obligation THEN he CAN be fined.
Perhaps your job description is exceedingly simple, just show up on time and remember to say “Would you like fries with that?” but some professions entail a variety of commitments. My son-in-law is a professional athlete and although we managed to play a round of golf during his time back home while on winter break, a second round wasn’t possible because of job-related obligations, and such did not involve playing in a game.
However my opinion that he is a religiously delusional prick is not dependent of the conditions of his contract.
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Mary Haviland
The contract is for 0laying in the NHL, not promoting a perversion and trying to force players who were in a contract to play in which had nothing to do with playing is and should not be legit, and esp if those conditions were not in the original contract. That player is there to play hockey, not promote perversions. That is the only thing that should be in the contract.
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Robert James Ruhnke
Oh can it, Mary. Nothing perverted about being LGBTQ+. Your obsession blinds you to your own sins. It’s not like they’re promoting bondage or orgies for crying out loud. Though you seem in dire need of some kind of good time. Loosen up your jack boot and live a little.
As for you, Mr. Gray. Too easy. Again. Hes not being punished for his views. He broke contract. There should be consequences. You wanna be persecuted so badly. Just so you can react badly. It’s gross. You think being a victim constitutes getting revenge for whatever reason. Do please take your own advice and grow up.
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Daniel Gray
yea way too easy. He did NOT break his contract as NOTHING in his contract said that he had to do this. Nice try but you failed yet again. And if you think his contract says he has to, then please show ANY contract that says you have to wear a gay pride shirt/jersey. I wont hold my breath waiting as you CANT.
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Dr. Zerpersande, NSC
@Havahand If you’re honest you’ll admit that you have no idea what is in the contract. And I am absolutely certain that the NHL, NBA, NFL or any other professional sporting association gives an airborne rodent's anal sphincter muscle requests if you think their contracts are legit, much less send said contracts to you to sign off on the contents.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The point of the matter here is not whether or not there was a contractual obligation. The point is that he was being hypocritical in his claim that his religion justified his bigotry against LGBTQI+ people. Try to mask that as you will, that is the underlying truth that people here are trying to rationalize away by using words like "whining", "perverted", "ignorant" and "evil" as epithets - when it fact, it is those hurling these terms at others like random explosives in the hope of disorienting and sidelining reason who are truly the ones to be judged by them.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
As people look at the religious actions of this sports star they see he’s using hate towards his fellow man instead of love and want nothing to do with religion or God.
Wonder if this player is really Gay. And he’s trying to combat being gay with religion and hate. Wouldn’t be the first time….
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Troels Qvist
Migth be he is on the other team, I have always found statements like that a bit peculiar, some migth say queer
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Robert Edward Szekely
Expression of a faith that supports denying equal rights to fellow human beings is underserving of respect and should not be sheltered from criticism, simply because of its status as a recognized "religious belief". Millions of people have been savagely murdered throughout history in the name of recognized "religious beliefs". Gay and transgender people are still being brutally assaulted and murdered around the world as a write this, SIMPLY BECAUSE OF WHO THEY ARE, AND NOT BECAUSE THEY CONSTITUTE AN ACTUAL THREAT TO ANYONE, OR BECAUSE THEY HAVE HARMED ANYONE. No, Provarov does not earn a free pass because he played the "religion" card.
We live in a rational, not a superstitious world. When someone's beliefs are leveraged to justify the marginalization of a segment of the population just because that segment does not conform to those beliefs, those beliefs have become anachronistic to our modern world. I say that position of Russian Orthodoxy then has justly earned the right to be loudly, firmly and publicly rebuked, just like Taliban and Iranian interpretations of Islam.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Using the metaphor "might be on the other team" implies that you consider this person an adversary, someone that you need to fight with, not accept. That doesn't exactly strike me as a position of inclusion. Too much of this discussion hinges on the "us" vs "them" construct, i.e., "not-gay" vs. "gay" as being in opposition to one another, instead of "we" being in harmony as human beings, and then using "belief" (not fact) as a shield to justify bigotry, with those self-professed "believers" claiming, 'really, it's not me, it's God! He says I can't support them because they're gay and I'm not and gay is bad." What, are we all grade schoolers here? Do people who go to Sunday School get a partial lobotomy of their frontal lobe as part of catechism now so that reason doesn't get in the way of religion?
No, I will not respect bigotry masquerading as religion. Nor should anyone else.
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Robert Gagnon
No one should be forced to represent any groups sexual preference. Who ever came up with such an obscene idea should have their head checked. I bet the puck wasn't rainbow, since hitting it would represent abuse? Are rainbow footballs coming next year? Keep forcing yourselves on on people made uncomfortable by your life style and reap the result from your callousness.
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Robert Edward Szekely
And why should anyone be "made uncomfortable" by a gay person?
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Robert Edward Szekely
@Robert Gagnon: Describing LQBTQIA+ persons are a group who have a "sexual preference" to be attracted to members of their own sex, or a "sexual preference" to feel like they're trapped in the body of the wrong physical sex is entirely mistaken and incorrect. The term "preference" implies choice. There is no more an element of "choice" or "preference" in sexual orientation or gender identity than there is in whether or not one is born with blue or brown eyes, red or blond hair, tall or short, or high or low intelligence, etc. The very term "sexual preference" is an obsolete term based on past ignorance. We (all should) know better (by) now (unless we're troglodytes....)
Also, to call a symbolic act of showing solidarity in supporting equal rights for a long-oppressed minority "obscene" is in in fact, in itself, "obscene".
Do you also think that the Emancipation Proclamation was "obscene"....?
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David Arthur Lewis
Who Would Jesus Hate?
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Catherine Christina Deslippe
One man, one's feelings should be respected. Courage to stand alone, as I have seen so many that hid for many years in my life. LGBTQ has come a very long way. Why focus on one individual as the rest of the team supported? We have to be open to everyone's opinions; what we don't have to do is to take away what the event was about, and only we can make a difference. As the bible says, love their neighbour as thy self.
I have seen hate towards gays in my life, terrible beatings and my mom always opened the door to everyone. I wouldn't say I like labels, as we are all the same. The world would be better if we allowed everyone to be who they are, not focusing on one person and looking at all the others who were there to support "Pride. {I feel that this is what the media does for a story instead of focusing on what the event was all about}
We are all equal, no matter our colour, sexuality or views on life. Love one another as God so loved the world.
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Lionheart
Thank you, Catherine, for your reply, but……I have to ask the question…did your god so love the world, if one believes the myth that he almost destroyed it…..and….is there any demonstrable evidence that any of the 3000 or so gods, that mankind has created, been proved to be real, or have ever existed?
🦁❤️
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Mary Haviland
The answer to your answer is yes. There is at archeological evidence that the demigods existed. And they did love the world and he knew how what he intended for the world and humans when he created them. He knows what are myths and he knows what are true because he and his ways are the truth. And just because the 3000k demigids did things that went against his ideas doesn't make them right, that is why they were called fallen angels or that Satan was found to have inequity. You know meaning not equal to they and you know that thing that congress want to pass to try to infer that perverts are equal when they arent, they call the equity bills. Equity is not the same as equality. It is the same as Inequity. They knows better than any if you about what is perverse and what isn't. And yhwy is the say. Not the perverse demigods
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Robert Edward Szekely
So who are these 3 million (3000K) demigods of which you speak? Where is this archaeological evidence of which you speak?
BTW, If you are trying to reference the God of the Old Testament, the tetragrammaton is transliterated from Aramaic as YHVH, not "yhwy". It is the Hebrew word for God, consisting of the four Hebrew letters yod, he, vav, and he, transliterated consonantally usually as YHVH, now pronounced as Adonai or Elohim in substitution for the original pronunciation which has been forbidden.
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Lionheart
As Robert has excellently commented, Mary, where is the archaeological evidence that any god is real, even yours.
There are of course written stories of gods, just like there are written stories of fairies, and Spider-Man. 🤷🏼
🦁❤️
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Robert Edward Szekely
It is true that the US Constitution, Bill of Rights and First Amendment do allow one to be a disingenuous hypocrite. I am not offended. I simply am trying to make clear that one should not hide behind their religion to mask their bigotry, but rather, stand up and own it.
And if that same person does not see gay and queer people as his equal brothers and sisters in the vast tapestry of humanity and chooses not to support them, then have the courage to commit to it fully.
Don't play the game but break ranks with your team in solidarity. Just sit out the game - completely. Ivan Provorov played the game, but refused to wear the rainbow colors. Everyone else on his team did both.
He could have chosen to: (1) "Take one for the team", and ¨worn the colors" or wrapped his stick in them as every other member of his team did, to demonstrate unit cohesiveness, or; (2) As chose not to wear the colors, sit out the game entirely.
I do not suggest that he should have been fined or fired or have any other disciplinary action taken against him.
Why--I ask--was Option 2 as identified above--not a viable choice for him, if it he truly felt it a personal moral quandary? From my point of view, if I make a decision based on a personal belief, I would tend to keep it private--I would not choose to parade my dissent out in front of the world for everyone to see: if it was TRULY a PERSONAL MORAL BATTLE.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Spiderman ISN'T REAL?? Next someone's going to say the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus are just children's stories!! ;)
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Lionheart
Oh no! Please don’t say Santa 🎅isn’t real. 😱
Is the Tooth Fairy real? I know for sure that I’ve read it somewhere that it is real.
🦁❤️
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Robert Edward Szekely
It's not what the man did, so much as the justification he provided as to why he choose not to participate. I don't think that he should have been fined, but if he couldn't support his team, maybe he should have gracefully chosen not to play the game, instead of expressing disunity?
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Mary Haviland
The guy wasn't the problem the problem is the perverts that wants to force their perverted was in everybody else. We who are not perverted need to stand up for ourselves and if that means to go against the grain. Then that is what we need to do. And with all you perverts out there trying to force your will over in everybody else, he had not other choice but to create a disunity. Maybe you perverts are the ones who are creating the disunity by insisting on spreading your poison into the play arenas. Keep you perversions out of the games and to yourselves and you wouldn't have to worry about it. People, spectators don't want to see your perversions. We will have disunity when you perverts are having disunity toward the non perverted people.
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Robert Edward Szekely
How refreshing to finally encounter a more balanced argument! ;)
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Mary Haviland
No I think what, normality should always be supported. Not the perverted. It doesn't matter how far the perverts have come, they need to keep their ideas to themselves. We as a country should not support perversion. We are a Christian country and it goes against they. If it goes against whey, it affects the country badly because wlyhey will no longer favor us and that means we should bot be supportive if it. If you knew that devil worshipers were trying to normalize child sex, torturing and eating, would you think that should be supported, too? No. They shouldn't be, they are trying to do just that. There is no difference between the kinds of perversions. And your asking that we support that same concept and call it normal and good,, even when it is evil and bad. There is no difference. We should not support or show unity for one form of perversion then another, it is all wrong and it's all wrong in the eyes of whwy. And it is clear, if we as a country goes against ywhy, he turns his back in us and doesn't grant us our blessed status. Rather you want to accept that or not doesn't change the way thing are. Maybe you need to get the book of the truth if the gifs. Because you have been influence by the returning if the demigods, aka the fallen gods. But yhwy.
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Robert Edward Szekely
First off, the United States of America is most certainly NOT a Christian Nation: • It cannot be forgotten that the Preamble starts, "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union...." It does not read, "We the humble followers of Jesus, in order to form a more Christian nation...¨ • If the United States were in fact a Christian nation, there would be direct and explicit references to the Holy Trinity and Jesus in the Declaration and the Constitution. d accepting those of different faiths), strengthen the human community. • Religions which teach coercion, dominion, conquest, religious nationalism, and that "all should live by the teachings of their faith", regressively crush human spirit and freedom under the bootheel of dogmatic ignorance. • The original rubric of the United States of America was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many, One) to 'Under God We Trust" in the 1950s, in response to fear of encroachment of "atheistic Communism" in the US. The problem with Communism was not atheism, as the worship of God was replaced with mandatory worship of The State in its stead. • The U.S. Constitution does not mention God, the first clause of the First Amendment forbids Congress from adopting any laws tending to the “establishment of religion,” and 19th century efforts to adopt an amendment specifically acknowledging God failed. The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli that sought to secure America from attacks by the so-called Barbary pirates who were Muslim made a point to say that the United States "is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."
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Mary Haviland
No first off the United States of America is most certainly is a Christian nation. Our founders were christians, the constitution was based in christian concepts. When the pilgrim's landed here, they were christian and they wanted to call this land new Jerusalem. When Christopher Columbus came here it was with the idea of funding the scattered Israelites and restoring YHWYs kingdom. He said so in his logs. That he was driven here by a higher source for a higher purpose as I have said. Just because your ignorant, doesn't make you or your ideas right.
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Robert Frizzell
Using a murderer and slaver like Columbus to support your argument? Really?
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Robert Edward Szekely
Study actual history of the Framers of the Constitution. A nation with a majority of Christians does not constitute a Christian nation. Where does that leave all the Americans of non-Christian faiths but implicitly as second-class citizens?
That is why there is a separation of church and state.
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Mary Haviland
Yes it does. And with the framers using the ten commandments and the Bible and prayers with the communication returned to the by YHWY does denote this country being a christian nation. Your insistence if it not making it so, doesn't make it not so.
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Mary Haviland
A country that was founded on a Cristian constitution by Christians who listened to YHWY, who was guilded here by YHWY to form a new country for His people, that to me means the country was a Christian nation. And that sibgiw itbit, if you don't like it, move to Russian or China or the middle east and see how they like your ideas.
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Robert Edward Szekely
"And that sibgiw itbit"?? Did you have a seizure while typing that?
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Mary Haviland
I did study the history of the framers, that's how I know they were majority Christians. Even the pilgrim's who came here before the country was actually started brought with them the Geneva bibles. Maybe you need to do some actual studying if the framers and founders if out country. Go read Christopher Columbus's ship logs. Go find the diary's written by the pilgrims in James town. They were all christians. You go do your studying you can also to to first harvest ministries and look up professors toto's conservative college classes, where he lays it all out for you. look for his videos america 101 and other such videos related to the founding of the country. He has all the proof there as well. Go there, you might actually learn something.
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Christine
Proof Mary has no clue what she's talking about: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.... During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." ~ James Madison "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." ~ John Adams "The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." ~ George Washington "Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." ~ Thomas Jefferson "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries." ~ James Madison "The way to see by Faith is to shut the Eye of Reason." ~ Benjamin Franklin "In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." ~ Benjamin Franklin "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." ~ Thomas Paine "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." ~ Susan B. Anthony "Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst." ~ Thomas Paine
Unlike Mary, I have given examples that are verifiable instead of just waxing poetic on my own sentiments on what I THINK the founders attitudes towards Christianity were. I will give you one things as being accurate in your comment though, Mary. Christopher Columbus. That genocidal rapist that tortured friendly natives for sport was definitely a Christian. Here is a quote from a true man of your god: "While I was in the boat, I captured a very beautiful Carib woman, whom the said Lord Admiral gave to me. When I had taken her to my cabin she was naked—as was their custom. I was filled with a desire to take my pleasure with her and attempted to satisfy my desire. She was unwilling, and so treated me with her nails that I wished I had never begun. But—to cut a long story short—I then took a piece of rope and whipped her soundly, and she let forth such incredible screams that you would not have believed your ears. Eventually we came to such terms, I assure you, that you would have thought that she had been brought up in a school for whores."
But by all means, Mary, keep up your "study" and be an apologist for rapists, thieves, and murderers in the name of christ.
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Mary
First of all America was never lost to be found there were people LVING here BEFORE your Nazi's got here.
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Mary
You are ignorant and delusuional Mary Haviland.
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Robert Edward Szekely
"If you knew that devil worshipers were trying to normalize child sex, torturing and eating, would you think that should be supported, too?"
Where is the evidence for this outlandish claim? I know a few Satanists, and they're much more rational than the person responsible for making the quoted statement above. And actually, they're non-theistic Satanists - using the romantic image of Satan as rebellion against a tyrannical God (read the Old Testament if you don't believe me, esp. the Book of Joshua). Maybe before judging what she doesn't know, she should do her homework:
The Church of Satan - https://www.churchofsatan.com (Established by Anton LaVey in the 1960s) The Satanic Temple - https://thesatanictemple.com (Established by Lucien Greaves in 2012)
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Mary Haviland
The evidence is by reashurging the the history of the history of the kazaruian mafia and satanic people. And yes they are still around, they are the Rothschild, the Rockefeller, the richest if the elitists who have been trying to control the world. They are responsible for starting communism, out satanic fiat money systems around the world, the murder if jfk and many of the other false flag event which are used to. Until the people of the world. Rather you choose to accept that you are being controlled by them or not. It still happens. Infact they prefer you stay ignorant, then they can continue to control you. And I tried to copy and paste things I've found into this site to share it with you, and it doesn't accept the pasting, so you will have to research this yourself. But start with the kazerian mafia.
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Robert Edward Szekely
I have been able to copy and past plenty of information to post here, so I reject the argument as either untruthful or ignorant that you could not do the same.
Also, the burden of proof is on the party making the argument. If you can not provide the evidence to support your point, you have not provided a valid argument.
These latest statements clearly indicate that you appear to be suffering from paranoid delusions and schizoaffective episodes. In other words, not merely irrationality, but actual insanity.
What you do not understand you blame on conspiracies. I'd be tempted to offer a tinfoil hat, but this latest "argument" provided is almost pitiable.
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Mary Haviland
I haven't. So maybe you have a computer that does that. Goody for you. But I can't.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Even though you BELIEVE it's a sin, you BELIEVE God will be the final judge of your choices made on Earth.
Let us stop stating beliefs (subjective) and stating them as though they were facts (objective).
And Provorov was not prevented in any way from exercising his first amendment right. He stated his position. However, when you are a public figure, and you make a statement in the media, you have by that act opened yourself up to criticism. If you don't want to be criticized for your actions or beliefs, don't put them forth in a public forum.
The fact that you have a right to express yourself freely and believe as you will, does not mean that you have a right to be protected from criticism. Open debate is the heart of the democratic process. If you say something that others find disagreeable, expect to be challenged, and be ready to defend your position with rational arguments and justifiable evidence. Simply hurling epithets back at others (instead of arguing to the point or points in question) just makes the person(s) engaging in such action(s) look foolish. Epithets or words which could serve as epithets could include words such as: "perverted", "evil", "sin", "radical", "fascist", "satanic", "mafia"....and the list goes on.
We have people on here repeating falsehoods with vitriol because they WANT what they say to be true, even though every reasonable person around plainly sees they aren't.
And just because someone disagrees with you, does not make them a radical. And no one used the word "racist" during this discussion. The word was "bigot". Although related, they're not synonymous. You can be bigoted against people for reasons other than "race" (which is an artificial construct, truth be told--humans are of a single race, biologically and genetically), viz. LGBTQIA+ persons are not a separate "race" from everyone else.
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Robert Edward Szekely
If you can't cut and paste into this forum, that's not a computer problem--it's operator error.
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Mary
Debunked by the FBI endless times there are no Santanic rituals as you speak about. What do YOU do in bed Mary Haviland pervert?! I think your doing it wrong.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The Satanic Panic of the 1990s had no more truth to it than the Salem Witch trials of the 17th century. In both cases, frightened, ignorant people had to find scapegoats for their problems, and saner voices DID NOT PREVAIL.
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Robert Edward Szekely
What constitutes "normality"? Who are these "perverts" purportedly "taking over"?
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Robert Edward Szekely
@Catherine Christina Deslippe: although you make some excellent points, my concerns is this.
If we tolerate intolerance, or if we give disrespect a pass, by doing so, aren't we then (passively) condoning (and perhaps even encouraging) those actions?
As I have mentioned elsewhere (speaking of freedom of choice) couldn't Provorov have CHOSEN to not participate in the game at all and CHOSEN not to have made a public statement to the media?
It wouldn't have required him to change, challenge or strain the beliefs he PUBLICLY professed he felt bound by.
I see reflected in Provorov's choice of actions Jesus' comment regarding not publicly praying like the hypocrites where everyone can see. Why did he feel the need to make it a public spectacle, instead of just essentially "recusing" himself from that particular game because of a purported moral conflict?
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Mary Haviland
When you go against the original creation, and when your thinking goes against that if the original creation then your perverted, and when your idea change back and forth. Or is encouraged by others or because of actions if others, it mental illness, being trans or homo is not something you are born with, it is not genetic or inherited, it is something that is environmentally caused. That makes it a perversion and it makes it a mental illness.
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Robert Edward Szekely
"Original creation" is a myth. The Book of Genesis can't decide if God made Adam and Eve at the same time from the dust of the Earth, or if He made Adam first, and then put Adam to sleep and made Eve after from Adam's rib so that Adam wouldn't be alone.
The Bible contradicts itself from the git-go, and it doesn't stop there. How can any rational person put faith in that as truth?
Plus, anybody who reads the Bible literally is reading it wrong. It's neither a textbook nor a history book. It's a book of hidden wisdom.
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Mary Haviland
To the person who messaged me, trans and homo is a perversion. It goes against how they created us and it goes against his ideas. And it is the ideas if the devil who always perverts everything that they does. It is a mental illness because many who had had these ideas have jumped back and forth between being homo it bit or being bi, ECT. That is not normal. Not only that but your ideas that but your insurance to normalize it only induces it more because it is a learned behavior. And eap with children, they will sick up any and all ideas esp if it comes from people they have been taught to look up to. It is no normal for kids to believe they can go from one sex to another, it is not normal for kids to believe they are animals, and non if it should be encouraged. We are humans and we should be proud to be humans above all other mortal life forms. We were made by the creator to be the sex we were born as and we should be proud of that and not deviate from it, to do so says they is imperfect, which we know he isn't, and to think otherwise also slaps ywhy in the face and is disrespectful to him and what he cheated. You are being rebellious to they and it is disrespectful. That is why it is a perversion. You are not doing yourselves any favors by not being who they created you to be. You need to be who yhwy created you to be or your not learning what they wants you to learn. There are reasons why things don't go your way. Some are that by going against thwy, you create the disharmony you think you want, or they put it into youso you would turn to they and doing so creates the harmony you seek. Going against harmony if they will never give you harmony and pushing that into the rest if society only creates disharmony for the whole nation.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Human beings are little more than evolved primates. And not by much, considering that we continue to kill each other over differing ideologies, which completely flies in the face of our ability for rational thought.
The problem is that we too readily let our emotions take the lead (amygdala), instead of our reason (cerebrum).
We continue to let primitive survival instincts that we have outgrown rule us, which have now become a liability to the human race.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The argument claiming that LBGTQI+ are a perversion demonstrates a complete ignorance of science, and is based on prejudice and dogma. There are actually sea-creatures in nature which can physically change their sex if a suitable mate is not available to ensure that eggs can be fertilized and nurtured. Perhaps we should go back to burning witches? These arguments are medieval.
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Mary Haviland
Science, like the science that said to take a gene changing bioweapon to cure you from a disease that 97% of the population could surviver from anyway, and the bioweapon killed more people then the disease did. You mean that kind of science. Man doesn't hold anything over in science over the creator. YHWY us the ultimate scientists. And man's science is always changing. Just like global warming then it became global ice age, bit it's climate change which is really bioengineering. So don't tell me about science. You don't know anything about ignorant man's ever changing science.
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Robert Edward Szekely
It is now obvious you've never taken a biology class in school. mRNA vaccines DO NOT rewrite DNA. What they do is provide a simulated model of the virus unique spike protein to help safely train the immune system so that it can recognize and fight off the actual virus when once it encounters it. Also, the purpose of a bioweapon is to kill, not cure. It's right there in the word bio-"...weapon".
There is NO evidence that 97% of the population could survive COVID-19 with no vaccination. Actual figures clearly contradict that statement. You may want to go back and double-check how many people have actually died from it.
Science changes as new data becomes available. That is called learning (and growing). It is something that mature, rational and intelligent people do.
Medicine is as much an art as it is a science. When a new innoculation is developed against a disease, there will always be a minority of outliers who will suffer adverse effects. Does that mean that a vaccine that will save 1,000,000 lives should not be used because 100 people will have a bad reaction to it? It is no less tragic for those 100 people, or for their friends, or for their families, but we have to put these things into perspective: where (and how) is the greater good served?
Again, the Old Testament God is identified by the transliterated phonetic tetragrammaton YHVH, not YHWY, and spoken as "Adonai".
The universe is billions of years old, not thousands, and was created not by a supernatural God, but by a phenomenon called the "Big Bang".
The "Creator" (God) is an unproven myth, which remains subject to debate.
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Mary Haviland
I have had a lot of biology classes fyi
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Robert Edward Szekely
@Mary Haviland - if, as you say, you have "had a lot of biology classes", it is painfully evident from your postings that you learned less than nothing from any of them.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Regarding climate change: in the 1970s, scientists were predicting another Ice Age. Subsequently, they found the error in their data and realized that Global Warming was the true climate change issue.
Science, unlike dogma, corrects itself when it identifies its mistakes.
It's just like someone admitting when they're wrong, instead of trying to hide their mistake.
You never learn anything if all you ever do is keep hiding your mistakes and keep repeating them.
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Mary Haviland
There is no climate change it is all a hoax. It and there are bag NGOs who have been engineering the weather to convince you stupid people that it's realm. If you know where to look you can see peoples showing lasers to effect vulcano, make forest fires. I've even seen videos where people are in a helicopter with a flame thrower and shooting it down alone the side of the roadways. To start forest fires. And if you know where to look you can find videos showing power bombs being fired off and exploded into hurricanes to make them have more energy. Look humans have been seeding the clouds for decades to make rain, don't you think they wouldn't use similar ideas to creat other weather issues? To think other wise is crazy. If. Course the deep state will do that. They want to control us and people like you must want to be controlled and are willing doops. But don't say it climate change to those of us who knows better.
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Tom
You don't know better, you're just deep down the conspiracy well and I pray that you one day get out.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Don't believe everything you see on the Internet.
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Robert Edward Szekely
"You don't know anything about ignorant man's ever changing science."
That sentence literally makes no sense whatsoever. Please stop.
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Lionheart
Your inability to grasp science, Mary, is not a valid argument against it.
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Mary Haviland
If science is science then why is it that not only has there been changes in science but when there is changes, they can't be made know, they can't Rick the boat. Even in like archeology, when giant skeletons are found usually the remains are picked up by natural history museum and are never seen again, or when Egyptians of the earliest dynasties mummies are found, they have found that they were red headed or something other then blacks, the archeologists have to keep it quiet. They can't go against the norms. They can't rock the boat or they are canceled. There are a lot of carbon dated items that has dated items for being millions of years old and are extinct, then they find living specimens. Oh they aren't that old or extinct after all, how convenient. And yet they still can't explain big foot. They insist in evolution even without proof. And science is perfect even the covid rests would say that vivid was in everything. They killed zoo animals because they tested for COVID-19. No not all science is perfect. Only the science fromYHWY.
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Lionheart
I’m sorry you don’t understand what science is, Mary. Carbon-14 dating isn’t used to determine objects millions of years old, as you postulated. Its accuracy is only good for no more than about 50,000 years. Other scientific techniques are used for items older than 50K years.
Don’t forget that the Christian church held to the notion that everything, Sun, Moon, and Stars, revolved around the earth. In their eyes the earth was the center of the universe (geocentricism). That was until Galileo came along (astronomer & physicist) and proved the church to be wrong. He was tried by the church for his heresy and placed under house arrest for the rest of his life.
The evidence (proof) of evolution, Mary, is so overwhelming that there is now no doubt at all as to how everything evolved. You can find that out for yourself if you care to study genetics, and paleo-archaeology. If you have to look up the word “paleo-archaeology” you might find this to be one of the reasons why you are struggling to understand what is being discussed here, in an intellectual way.
As for Big Foot. No one has yet proved it is real. The same goes for fairies, elves, gnomes, the Loch Ness Monster, and even the YHWY God that you believe in.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The arguments stating that LGBTQI+ people are "evil" and "perverted" are propaganda and outright lies. The argument from Divine Fiat that 'homosexuality is unnatural ' has been disproven by science: Groupers are mostly monandric protogynous hermaphrodites, i.e., they mature only as females and can change sex after sexual maturity.[16][17]
From
Same-sex sexual behavior is well documented in non-human animals, far beyond the penguin examples above. And, as with the penguin examples, it can be difficult for humans to detect same-sex couples in animals, especially when it is difficult to tell males and females apart. For example, the Laysan albatross is another “sexually monomorphic” (i.e., males and females look alike) bird species in which same-sex pair-bonds—in this case, in females—are common.
And, until recently, biologists didn’t realize that same-sex partnerships were so common—in one location, 31% of the pairs studied were female-female. Upon further investigation, it became evident that these female-only birds were successfully hatching eggs and raising chicks. Similarly, same-sex sexual behavior, of either a long-term or transient nature, has been documented in examples such as (but by no means limited to): • Mammals such as gorillas, chimpanzees, bats, dolphins, bison, and humans • Birds such as penguins, albatross, zebra finches, and acorn woodpeckers • Reptiles such as garter snakes • Amphibians such as the American toad • Fish such as guppies and cichlids • And many, many types of invertebrates such as squid, snails, fruit flies, and roundworms.
From
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Robert Edward Szekely
Let us for a moment entertain the claim that an omnipotent and omniscient God condemns homosexuality (and I'm not saying that this true, but let's imagine it for a moment for the purposes of a thought experiment). If it were so, what business is it to any of us as individuals, and what harm does it cause us? If we claim that God has said this is 'wrong', then should it not be His and only His place to judge, and not ours?
I will conclude this post here with the statement that religious fanatics have dehumanized LGBTQI+ persons and turned them into some sort of boogeyman, that if accepted into the larger cultural fabric, will somehow cause the downfall of society. This ignores the reality that they've always been among us, just hiding in the shadows. They're just tired of hiding who they are, and being treated like they're some sort of contagious disease--which harkens back to how Jews in Nazi Germany were treated, I might add.
Embracing their differences, and vilifying our LGBTQI+ brothers and sisters will cause NO HARM WHATSOEVER to any of us as individuals, or to our society as a whole. Lightning will not come down from the heavens to strike anyone dead if we drop the lies, slander and bigotry behind this disingenuous pulpit-pounding saying "God said so!" Really? When was the last time you talked to Him? Can you provide us objective evidence of this? And don't quote the Bible. Cherry-picking verses to suit one's agenda is a time-worn and well-known deceit.
Just own your bigotry, and the underlying insecurity regarding your own sexuality that it masks. In other words, Grow Up!
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Troels Qvist
This is dumb, initially, icehockey is a sport not a world changing event If someone dont want to participate in an event, they should be free to do so. Gay men/women (there are with extremely few exeptions only two genders) wanting to play sports should do so in a sports club of their choice not a lgbtq+ club only (be normal for a while) the lgbtq+ community will find out that most people, dont care anyway. I personally as a straigth guy have no issues with sharing locker room's etc with gays etc. If somebody do that is there problem . Finally i think the lgbtq+ community should start to practice what they preach, perhaps people dont want to be inclusive, tolerant & open. I belive they have that rigth, ditch the victim mentality
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Robert Edward Szekely
Wow. My friend, I think you have really missed the mark, here... ;)
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Robin Call
So the world is going to bash and throw hate at this athlete because he does not want to go to an event that is not his cup of tea due to his religious beliefs…Wow….What hypocrisy….Just because a person doesn’t agree with another’s life style, sexuality, etc. doesn’t make them a bigot or a bad person; that makes us all different and human. Stop trying to force homosexuality onto others for validation and acceptance…Be who you are, accept who you are, and Love yourself…It shouldn’t matter what others think or believe.
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Robert Edward Szekely
He played the game, but he didn't show unity with his team. He should just have not played, and made no comment at all. I don't buy the argument about "religious beliefs" any more than the old argument about slavery being justified in the past by the Bible. We need to grow beyond that.
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Robert Edward Szekely
OK, Robin Call, let's see how it looks this way. Here are some past issues phrased the same way you framed "homosexuality":
"Stop trying to force equal rights for blacks onto others for validation and acceptance."
"Stop trying to force women's right to vote onto others for validation and acceptance."
"Stop trying to force interracial marriage onto others for validation and acceptance."
"Stop trying to force racially integrated education in public schools onto others for validation and acceptance."
"Stop trying to force gender integration (co-education) into institutions of higher learning onto others for validation and acceptance.¨
Now currently, we are past those issues, and they've been resolved. Looking back at it that way, though: don't they just sound stupid?
Take a moment to consider looking at your statement regarding "homosexuality" in the same light.
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Steven Ferrell
Do people really think trying to FORCE someone to go along with them and their lifestyle, will make people be all accepting of it? All that does is cause people to take a harder stand.
Respect for someone does NOT be going along 100% with them.
I have a close friend who is gay. He knows I personally don’t agree with the gay lifestyle and yet we are the dearest of friends.
We talk openly about this type of stuff and this is what he told me once.“Steve, I don’t need everyone to be supportive of me being gay. I know that is who I am and if someone does not support it 100%, that is fine. Those that need everyone else’s approval, only tells me they are comfortable being gay and need everyone else to affirm it for them.”
I think his words speak wisdom. I treat him and his partner with respect. My wife and I have been to his home a few times. When he and his partner were having some difficulty in their relationship, he came and talked with me asking my advice.
You can show respect without 100% going along with them or how they live their life.
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Steven Ferrell
Do people really think trying to FORCE someone to go along with them and their lifestyle, will make people be all accepting of it? All that does is cause people to take a harder stand.
Respect for someone does NOT be going along 100% with them.
I have a close friend who is gay. He knows I personally don’t agree with the gay lifestyle and yet we are the dearest of friends.
We talk openly about this type of stuff and this is what he told me once.“Steve, I don’t need everyone to be supportive of me being gay. I know that is who I am and if someone does not support it 100%, that is fine. Those that need everyone else’s approval, only tells me they are comfortable being gay and need everyone else to affirm it for them.”
I think his words speak wisdom. I treat him and his partner with respect. My wife and I have been to his home a few times. When he and his partner were having some difficulty in their relationship, he came and talked with me asking my advice.
You can show respect without 100% going along with them or how they live their life.
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Robert Edward Szekely
When I hear people refer to "gay" as a "lifestyle" I can tell that they're showing their ignorance. "Gay" isn't a "lifestyle" any more than "straight" (the heteronormative majority) is a "lifestyle".
I guess I'm having trouble understanding what people mean by "going along 100% with them"; "don't agree with the gay lifestyle" or "being supportive of being gay". You don't have to be gay to have gay friends - why is it so difficult to accept them for what they are, and support them for who and what they are. The only support they really want is equal rights in marriage, adoption, service etc., and to be free from persecution.
How is that supporting a "gay lifestyle"? Is flying a rainbow flag going to make you gay? Is it going to change other straight people into gay people? If you call someone a friend, how do you only partly support them as a person, vs. supporting them as a whole person, i.e., as everything that makes them who they are?
It would have been better for him to have remained silent, and just not played the game.
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Robert Edward Szekely
How exactly does asking for solidarity in supporting the newly recognized rights of a long-persecuted minority constitute forcing "someone to go along with them and their lifestyle"?
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Eric D Peck
Brilliant move by the NHL. This is the most attention I have paid to hockey in weeks. But for people who are upset about what one player did, why not focus on the dozens of players that participated? This kind of thing would have been unthinkable 30 years ago. Progress is being made.
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Amante Tadique
The usual left wing fascists demanding strict adherence to whatever they deem fit by everyone else, whether they agree of not. If he doesnt believe in it then why go to it or wear their colors? Many people fearing cancelation, loss of job and physical safety and online bullying just go along with whatever the mob decrees though. Anyone demanding this stuff knows where they can go....
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Rev Ned
If he didn’t want to participate, fine. His pay should be docked to compensate his non-participation.
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Donald R Girome
Freedom of speech and his religion allows him to make his choice. If you disagree with our Bill of Rights and Our constitution move to a different country.
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Tom
The First Amendment prevents the government from impinging on a person's right to practice their religion. It doesn't mean that a private organization, the NHL and Philadelphia Flyers, can't provide him with consequences for not participating in a team activity.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Words and choices do have consequences. If you say something in a public forum, don't be surprised when you get a public response. And don't be surprised if it isn't all (or necessarily) positive. If you don't want be critiqued by the public, keep it private.
It is best, however, if:
(1) We can keep the discourse civil (and somewhat rational);
(2) Although everyone is entitled to an opinion, not all opinions carry equal weight. Those who spontaneously spew a lot of bilious flotsam shouldn't be surprised when their contributions fail to be given much consideration and are repeatedly disregarded, dismissed or debunked other participants in the debate; and,
(3) Don't state beliefs as though they constitute facts. It's disingenuous. The more you do this the more rapidly you lose credibility. Facts are objective and don't change depending on your point of view. Beliefs are subjective and do change depending upon your perspective. Remember that no matter HOW DEARLY you may hold a belief, everyone else IS NOT YOU and so doesn't necessarily share that belief. This is where it helps to proverbially put yourself in the 'other person's shoes'. Try to imagine how your position might look from THEIR perspective. If you really CAN'T, it's probably best then to REMAIN QUIET - because that's a sign that you're CLOSED-MINDED and that you can't learn anything that doesn't agree with what you already believe.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Those of us who disagree with others are not obligated to "leave the country", as debate is the lifeblood of the Republic. It is clear many on here who claim to understand the "laws of this land' (i.e., the USA), have neither an understanding of civics, nor civility.
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Rev. Jim Sutton
Since when are the rights for a person to express an opinion or faith superceded, or trampled on, by the rights of others ? ? ? As far as I know, the First Amendment has not been revoked. If you don't agree or like, ignore and move on. Don't get stuck in a criticizing rut. The following quotes are for those criticizing the hockey player. "They wait for the thrill of being offended." John Cleese "Just because YOU'RE offended, doesn't mean you're right." Ricky Gervais
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Robert Edward Szekely
This isn't a matter of offense: it's a matter of hypocrisy, and disingenuous statements being made to try to mask unwillingness to support equal rights for those who don't conform to an expected cultural norm.
Jesus Christ, upon who title Christianity is based was about the unification of humanity, and not its division based on artificially-created man-made barriers.
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Robert Edward Szekely
It seems many here are missing the point, for whatever reason. This is not about people being forced to change their beliefs. It isn't about taking away their freedom of speech or freedom of choice.
And I'm not sure about the individual who has stated, "The usual left wing fascists demanding strict adherence to whatever they deem fit by everyone else..." even means by this sentence. Fascists are extreme right-wingers, BTW. Anarchists are extreme left-wingers.
Everyone seems to have either conveniently or chosen to overlook the point that Ivan Provorov chose to play the game, but boycotted displaying the rainbow symbolism of showing solidarity with gay pride, citing his Russian Orthodox faith.
What he demonstrated was not an exercise of moral fortitude, but an act of team decohesion and disunity.
If he truly felt so strongly that he could not symbolically support Gay Pride in this way, why did he feel the need to make a public spectacle of it? Was it not Jesus who told his apostles to not be like the hypocrites who pray in public where everyone can see them?
Why could he not have simply sat the game out altogether, if this was truly a private moral conflict? That is what I take issue with. His choice of actions, and his justification for them. They truly lack sincerity and actual conviction, but are to be implicitly immune from critique because they are claimed to be "for religious reasons".
A truly pious individual would have taken steps to make sure that this decision, and the reason for it remained private. He could have chosen not to have appeared that night and not played in the game, while someone could have made the announcement at the beginning of the evening that "Ivan Provorov will not be playing tonight" or "We are sorry to announce that Ivan Provorov will be unavailable to participate in this evening's game" and left it at that.
For the record, Russian Orthodoxy started off as the Eastern Catholic church which broke off from Rome in the formative years of the Holy Roman Empire. It didn't recognize the Vatican, had it's own pope, and canonized a seven-book Bible (Septuagint) vs the more common five-book Bible (Pentateuch) known in the West. It's a variant of Catholicism, not really some obscure, mysterious offshoot Christian sect with arcane beliefs and practices.
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Mary
Homophobia is a phobia please seek help and stop hurting and abusing people because you have issues. This is abuse and verbal/mental abuse if they have to read some of the bigoted comments on here.
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Douglas Robert Spindler
@Mary well said. The cure for phobia is education and learning from people who are different. Imagine being born with testicles, a penis and a vagina thinking that's normal. Then imagine going to the doctor learning God made you different. You not just a women but a man as well.
https://www.ted.com/talks/susannah_temko_what_it_means_to_be_intersex
https://www.ted.com/talks/emily_quinn_the_way_we_think_about_biological_sex_is_wrong
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Robert Edward Szekely
Yes, with "phobia" clearly defined as "irrational [unfounded] fear"
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Mary
Original? Almost all of nature, thousands of species are bi-sexual! Only ONE species has homophobic bigots so which one is original and natural? You go against reality and truth. Truth is original not your book of lies.
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Robert S Heikkinen
What you are missing is the peace Christ gives us as Mediator between God and humankind through His finished work on the cross. No matter your persuasion or your background, Christ died for our sins and we as ministers should be proclaiming His triumph over sin and death!
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Lionheart
Do you have and demonstrable evidence for your claims that your god is real, Robert? There’s even very little evidence, if any, that the Jesus fellow, (as written about in that book), was real, even though it’s possible someone like him did exist.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Even if a fictional character, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth" (AKA the Jefferson Bible) provide a good example of a moral exemplar.
We don't need to apotheosize the man, or even assert that Rabbi Yeshua bar Yosef was an actual, living man of antiquity and a a great teacher of wisdom, if we just accept the lessons put forth under the name of the character, whatever we choose to call him or see him as.
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Lionheart
I totally agree with you, Robert. There are also some wonderful words of morality, love, and wisdom assigned to the Dumbledore character in the Harry Potter books, as well as many other books written by some wonderful philosophers. Thank for your comment. 🤗
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Robert Edward Szekely
Not every minister is a dogmatic Christian, and not all of us agree on what Jesus' message was, how it is to be interpreted, or even if his apotheosis was a correct interpretation. Yes, some of us heretics in the eyes of Christianity proper (just as Thomas Jefferson was declared an infidel by his peers for denying Jesus' divinity while supporting Jesus' message during his time on Earth).
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Robert Edward Szekely
@Robert S Heikkinen. Oh, my dear fellow! Please try to keep in mind that not all of us profess to be Christian ministers. Some of us who admire Christ's teachings would still be heretics in your eyes, as we may not worship Him as God, but still recommend following Him as a moral exemplar (as did Thomas Jefferson).
I am using the capitalization of "Him" out of respect for my fellow ministers of various Christian denominations who are not fanatic homophones or dogmatic automatons.
Let us remember that Babylonians also had a "Great Flood" myth, that the story of Christ owes its legacy to Osiris, that the birth of Christ was overlaid on the pagan festival of Sol Invictus (the Winter Solstice) and that the Resurrection overlays the Spring Equinox (Ostara) - all no doubt, to facilitate widespread pagan adoption of Roman Catholicism (the first major Christian denomination).
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Mary
Reading through the comments. Again Cherry picking what they want to believe. How many here are LEFT HANDED? Lets start with that since those people are demoniclly possesed according to your holy christian book. People DIED for being left handed and here we are in 2023 with MORE abusive and dysfunctional cherry picking. Do you care what straight people do in their bedrooms? Do you judge them!? You just pick on and bully gay people. If you can't attend something to support your brother/sister because they are gay and a human being then you should not be supporting LEFT HANDED people either. Maybe someone is wearing wool! Wool was forbidden to be woven with linen (Deuteronomy 2:11; compare Leviticus 19:19). Priests could not wear woolen garments (Ezekiel 44:17). Wool dyed scarlet with the qermes was used in the blood-covenant ceremony (Hebrews 9:19; compare Le 14; Numbers 19:6). How about thou shalt not lie!? Even about Santa as people lie to little children every single Christmas.Ohhh but that's OK right because that lying fits your agenda today. It's just a little lie so everything is fine and dandy. You cherry pick what to follow and what not to follow. Living Bibically read the book he did it and he lived it not you all that are on here. What about thou shalt not judge?? Judging someone simply because they are gay. Unless you are AMISH you are not following the your Bible. That bible is unnatural, dysfunctional and created by man. Truth does not lie HUMANS lie.
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Mary
Reading through the comments. Again Cherry picking what they want to believe and follow. How many here are LEFT HANDED? Lets start with that since those people are demoniclly possesed according to your holy christian book. People DIED for being left handed and here we are in 2023 with MORE abusive and dysfunctional cherry picking. Do you care what straight people do in their bedrooms? Do you judge them!? You just pick on and bully gay people. If you can't attend something to support your brother/sister because they are gay and a human being then you should not be supporting LEFT HANDED people either. Maybe someone is wearing wool! Wool was forbidden to be woven with linen (Deuteronomy 2:11; compare Leviticus 19:19). Priests could not wear woolen garments (Ezekiel 44:17). Wool dyed scarlet with the qermes was used in the blood-covenant ceremony (Hebrews 9:19; compare Le 14; Numbers 19:6). How about thou shalt not lie!? Even about Santa as people lie to little children every single Christmas.Ohhh but that's OK right because that lying fits your agenda today. It's just a little lie so everything is fine and dandy. You cherry pick what to follow and what not to follow. Living Bibically read the book he did it and he lived it not you all that are on here. What about thou shalt not judge?? Judging someone simply because they are gay. Unless you are AMISH you are not following the your Bible. That bible is unnatural, dysfunctional and created by man. Truth does not lie HUMANS lie.
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Mary Haviland
I don't see any reason why a or many players shouldn't have the right to boycott a team or any other employees that want you to do evil things. If you are not evil and probed to want to do evil things. You should not be forced to go against you more righteous standards. The evils of the rest of the teams ends where the righteous people's rights to be a part of righteousness begins. I absolutely applause that NHL athlete for standing up to his righeous standards.
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Robert Edward Szekely
You throw around the terms "perversion" and "evil" freely as epithets, apparently without any true knowledge of what either those terms mean. Both imply harm. Evil is egregious harm. Hitler and the Nazi Party in the commission of the Final Solution during the Holocaust, was evil. "Ethnic Cleansing" is evil. The "justice" practiced and the "sentences" handed out by the "Islamic Republic of Iran" are a perversion.
Gay people harm no one. There are no victims. There is no injustice masquerading as justice in them living their lives as as it makes them happy. And it's really none of our business who or how they love. Neither the State nor the Church has any business in the privacy of the bedrooms of consenting adults. Gay people just want to live and let live like any one else. Their is no "gay conversion conspiracy" - homosexuality is not evangelistic. It is neither a religion nor a philosophy. For those who would argue, "but it's a psychological disorder": we also learned that the solar system is not geocentric, but heliocentric. It just took us longer to recognize that homosexuality is a natural state.
Homosexuality also may have been a cultural concern millennia-past (and thus discouraged) because of high-mortality rates. Contrary to popular belief, that would not be a divine edict, but a cultural accretion masquerading as a divine edict.
In the future, please engage your brain, before putting your "mouth" into gear.
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Andre' Carl Bedard Winter
First of all you cannot change your sex. You can only castrate yourself. This is sodomy. Children are not old enough to make ridiculous and idiotic decisions. Parents are signing off on this. The Antichrist criminals who are pushing this garbage need to be eradicated. Good for the hockey player.
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Robert Edward Szekely
Apparently, some here have not heard of "sexual reassignment surgery". For all external purposes, you can surgically (and with hormones) change your sex. But a M-F transgender woman will be forever sterile--just as a CISGender woman who has had a hysterectomy will be subsequent to that particular surgery. F-M transgender men are also sterile, in the sense that they have no functioning testicles or live sperm.
So what? If nothing else, it positively contributes to managing overpopulation on the Earth. Gay and transgender couples can adopt otherwise unwanted children, and provide them a loving and supportive home. Rather than the alternative of those unwanted children staying in the abusive environment of a home with a heteronormative couple who never wanted them, or was mature enough to raise them.
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Colleen McAllister
Look up the definition of Sodomy. You are completely wrong and prejudiced.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The definition of sodomy is any sexual contact not between penis and vagina. It is tainted by the biblical definition as it has been twisted into English translation. Men having sex with men in those times and contexts was about dominance an denigration, not unlike heterosexual rape in the present day. So that means that consensual oral sex between a married heterosexual couple is also sodomy.
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Dale Louis Konyha
My outlook is simple, don't force your beliefs on me. Even though it's a sin, God will be the final judge of your choices you made on earth. I'm intolerant of the radicals who tell us we're wrong, racist. Yes, you have your 1st amendment right, you don't have the right to force it on me or other people.
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Mary
Sin according to who your god? Do you treat people who write with their LEFT HAND like this to? Not everyone follows your god which was created by man not by any god. God would be about truth and the truth is only ONE species on this planet has homophobic people all coming from religion based excuses. Maybe you are doing it wrong in bed maybe we should judge you? Do you ever think about that what you are oing wrong? According to Jewish people Christians usurped the I will not lay with man and manipulated it to fit their agenda and considering its UNNATURAL and dysfunctional your so-called sin I believe them not you. Relationships are built on way more things than sex everyone knows the honeymoon doesn't last forever but while your crawling into everyone elses bed lets crawl into yours!! Has your sperm dropped NOT to create a child? Maybe even a woman like Lilith being on top! Maybe you are doing it wrong. We should go through what you all do step by step.
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Robert Edward Szekely
And let us remember that true morality is not founded upon a fear of divine punishment. Marcus Aurelius was a pagan stoic who lived a much more virtuous life than seen reflected in many of the posts which appear to be referencing Abrahamic monotheism (incorrectly, it seems).
I am aware of no "YWHY" in any pantheon, Ms. Mary Haviland--current or in antiquity--mainstream or new religious movement (NRM)--what faith tradition are you attempting to cite in your inchoate rants?
...I suppose there's always Xenu.. ;)
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Robert Edward Szekely
@Dale Louis Konyha: Again with the epithet hurling "radicals", "racist". Just because we disagree, and I challenge your perspective doesn't make me a radical. Again, I've never used the word "racist", as it does not apply here. Although all racists are bigots, but not all bigots are racists.
Arguing for honesty in supporting equality for LGBTQ rights is not a matter of calling those who are trying to hide their bigotry behind religion racists.
You cannot use the excuse of religious freedom to justify homophobia. Attempting to do so is a true and accurate definition of perversion--a perversion of reason.
Saying on one hand that you "respect everyone", and subsequently acting in a manner that shows you do not support equal rights for everyone constitutes hypocrisy, plain and simple. I don't care how you try to twist or rationalize it away. That doesn't change the fact--any more than the assertion of flat earthers makes the earth suddenly cease being a globe.
Name-calling, and hurling epithets doesn't support a rational argument, either.
And nothing in this discussion supports the argument that Provorov's free practice of religion was somehow inhibited. Was he prevented from going to church? Was he arrested for his beliefs? No.
Let us not start going down the right of him being persecuted for his religion, as he is not oppressed underclass. Rather, it was the long-oppressed minority that the NHL was trying to recognize as entitled to equal rights as the favored CIS-hetero majority of other Americans by showing solidarity with them, as the LGBTQIA+ population has been a long-persecuted and ostracized underclass: as blacks and women have been in the past.
There is no inherent "gay lifestyle" or "gay agenda" being supported by displaying the rainbow colors. It is simply a symbol acknowledging integration the LGBTQIA+ population into the mainstream of American culture as full equals, socially and legally.
Anyone who says, "I refuse to wear the rainbow colors" is by such action stating in essence "I refuse to acknowledge LGBTQIA+ persons as my equals in American society, entitled to the same social courtesies, legal rights and protections as myself and other mainstream majority citizens".
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Robert Edward Szekely
"Even though YOU BELIEVE its a sin". Let's call a spade a spade, shall we?
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Robert Edward Szekely
@Dale Louis Konyha: supporting equal rights for all is neither radical, nor is it forcing one's beliefs on someone else. Please stop being so disingenuous. Again, all racists are bigots, but not all bigots are racists. LGBTQIA+ do not constitute a "race", therefore, prejudice against them cannot be termed "racism". It is bigotry. It is an unwarranted antipathy towards a group of people based solely on their being different, in this case, outside of an outmoded, and previously-accepted cultural norm, in which is previously acceptable to mock, abuse, assault and even kill such people falling into this class. Now bigots such as yourself are angry at being forced to accept them as your equals and wish they would JUST GO AWAY. Not going to happen, my friend. The closet is open, the lock is broken, and the key is forever lost. They're not EVER going back into hiding, so you'd better start getting used to the fact that gay/queer people are your friends, neighbors and co-workers, and are entitled to they same rights and freedoms as you are. They also have the right to express themselves genuinely, whether or not you might happen to find it acceptable.
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Susan Christine Giganti
There is nothing in a basic NHL contract or the rule book stating what a player should or should not do during a pre-game warm-up. So that’s likely why they didn’t pull him form the game. Given that the Eastern Orthodox and Russian Orthodox are very much against LGBTQ+ Provorov ‘s action should not be a surprise if he identifies as observant of his religion. I don’t like this stance of the Orthodox Church. I also will never believe that being gay is a sin. I believe when Jesus said, “love one another as I have loved you” there was a period at the end of the sentence and no exceptions were added. Love one another, just that.
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Robert Edward Szekely
"Antichrist criminals...need to be eradicated...castrate yourself...is sodomy..."
Wow, that certainly sounds like fascist rhetoric to me. Makes one wonder whether or not there just might be an "88" hiding out in there somewhere....?
;)
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Mary Haviland
There are just a few samples of proof that this country was indeed founded from Christianity. Rather you want it accept it or not, the founders were christians and we proudly display the 10 commandments in the halls of/ Congress for a reason. A government without God and Christianity1 in it is communism, Marxism. A23qlll1l111nd dead. RRR Ra
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Robert Edward Szekely
@Mary Haviland: you clearly haven't a clue what you are talking about, and yet you continue to blather on. All I can conclude is that you enjoy the attention, caring not a whit about it's quality.
"A23qlll1l111nd dead. RRR Ra" is not something that a coherent debater types. Do you mind explaining it?
Are you having seizures?
Is a cat walking on your keyboard?
Is that a flourish across the keys? You do realize that you're not playing a musical keyboard, right?
It comes across as nothing better than an inchoate rant....
Nobody takes those kind of rants seriously, you know....
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Robert Edward Szekely
A government without God and Christianity is secular and rational and thriving in the Netherlands.
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Diane Avis
Politics has no place in sports. Plain and simple. A person's beliefs is his own and he shouldn't be forced to take a stand but when he does, others should be respectful to allow it rather than attack him. Just like a person respects the opposing side to voice, act on his beliefs. (And I'm using the masculine pronoun in the general sense not specifically to this player.)
For those that are on the attack, you don't want others of the opposing view, to attack you then don't attack. Treat others as you would want to be treated as a person not a label
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Robert Edward Szekely
Provorov is a public figure.
Provorov made a public statement.
Provorov could have made a personal choice to sit out that game.
Wearing the rainbow jersey would have in no way constituted "supporting a gay lifestyle" (there is no such thing as "gay lifestyle") or "homosexuality". Rather, it's an issue of equal rights for a previously persecuted and ostracised underclass. And what exactly do people mean here when they argue that if Provorov were to have exhibited the rainbow colors, that would have constituted "supporting homosexuality" and then "violated his religious beliefs"?
I keep seeing those phrases bandied about in this thread, but I haven't seen anyone take the time to explain exactly what they mean by those phrases and what harm they would or could have caused.
What is "supporting homosexuality"?
If Ivan Provorov had worn the rainbow jersey when he played the game, how exactly would that activity have "violated his religious beliefs"?
Don't we all enjoy seeing rainbows after a rain storm? Sounds to me like God likes gays, after all. ;)
Does supporting "Black Lives Matter" make white folks black?
Does supporting persecuted Muslims in Iran turn Christians into Muslims?
Muslims don't believe Jesus is God, but a prophet. How can a Christian then support a Muslim?
Jews don't believe Jesus is God, either. At best, they see him as a religious teacher (Rabbi). Can a Christian support a Jew without violating their own religious beliefs?
The only "attack" here is on ignorance and disingenuousness, not religion.
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Robert Edward Szekely
If "politics has no place in sports" then why does religious rhetoric?
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Robert Edward Szekely
A debate is not an attack.
If politics has no place in sports, then why should religious rhetoric?
Provorov has less of an argument than the Colorado baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. Unlike in the latter case, there was no business transaction, no consideration given, no goods transferred or services provided.
It's plainly obvious that the bottom line is that what Ivan Provorov does in fact believe is that gays are not entitled to equal rights, while at the same time he didn't want to lose a payday for missing a game. If that wasn't the message he intended to send, well, he failed.
Not a damned thing to do with religion here. That's all just smoke and mirrors.
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Robert Edward Szekely
When we argue that "a person's beliefs are his own", then they shouldn't be surfacing a public forum as a statement to the media, but be kept private, shouldn't they?
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Phlan-Michelle Anne Phillipa Purss
I find it interesting how much of your history you don't understand. Also how a person who claims to be loving is so full of hate. Hate for you're fellow Clergy, filled with distain when your fellow countrymen try to correct you. You'll poberly write somthing hateful towards myself. You know I'm fine with it. However know how much hate you show me. I have 7 times the love for you. Also FYI I think that I know a little about YOU'RE HISTORY than you may. My school system teachers world history & not just the history of my country. Even though a number of your foundinding fathers were of a Religious Dispertion, they wrote your Contistion without it having a Religious Bias for what is happening in your own country today. It's quite sad & very disturbing to watch. Especially how the so called Eleiments Evangelical Christians to which is taking your country down a dangours path. You talk to people with Right Winged Dog Whitles metioning RUSSIA & CHINA yet the very comments being made by this group are making the very comments and are wanting the very things they fight against. History has way to many records of nations doing the same. Also history show that those same countries destroying themselves. So I ask do you want the same for your country or are you going to stay in your One Country Mindset. America is not a free country. You only have to look at how you treat the American Indians (Your own FRIST NATIONS PEOPLE), LGBTIQ+ Communities, African American Community and the TRANSGENDER COMMUNITIES to know it is not a free country. But a country of Opression and Hate. Unles your White, Christian & Right-Winged. No my country in no respects is a perfect country however is she is much freeier than America. Oh! To squash your confussion of my country I am an Australian. Also I've studied American Culture, History & Politics for 5 year's at University level, oh I done this as a hobby. I got board and wanted to do something one day. I these short courses for fun. I'm doing advaced enginerring at the moment. I wanted to study something.
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Robert Edward Szekely
The most vocal "Evangelical Christians" have little respect for those who differ from their positions, and yet claim "religious persecution" when challenged by other points of view, such as being told that America is not a Christian nation, even if the majority of the population does profess (when officially asked) to be of one purported Christian denomination or another.
As Mahatma Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, not so much your Christians". Decades later, this is statement is being proven, by those who are arguing, 'accept my belief, while I will not tolerate those outside of it'. What these arguments have to do with Christ's teaching remain a matter of debate (or we wouldn't still be here).
These numerous examples of self-righteous arrogance do not suit Christians, as Christ was humble and forgiving, and not as judgmental, as many of those who claim to speak in His name have demonstrated themselves to be here. These Christians are not Christlike at all.
And it is because of attitudes such as these, that the numbers of Americans who call themselves Christians continues to drop. Jesus Christ was a moral teacher and exemplar. His apotheosis was contrived by Roman Pagans to popularize Him and increase his following, as a tool of the State. That is history.
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Mary Haviland
To the person who told me not to believe anything I see on the internet. Do you mean like all of you guys. Fine I don't believe all of you guys. But I also don't need all of you or any of you to tell me what to believe on or off the internet. I am more then capable of discerning right from wrong. You need to understand however not everything in the internet is a lie. the internet is used for many different things. And some of that is to get the truths out there. And let me tell you. I sure wouldn't believe anything u see on the t.v. esp the news from the t.v. main stream medias out there. And according to you guys, if I took what you say as any kind of value. I shouldn't accept the bible. Well what do you want me to get info from. You? I don't think so. Remember you said not to take what's on the internet as true. That must include you, too. So either I believe some things in this world are true or nothing in this world is true. And if I don't believe anything in this world is true, then why is life worth living. Should I kill myself? Would that make all of you happy? If nothing is real, then neither is life and death. So it should be okay. Should I try it and see?
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Robert Edward Szekely
Some people really aren't able (or don't want to) see the point. It's not about accepting what the Bible says, or what any of us say ON FACE VALUE. Validate what we say. Check multiple sources. Verify the credibility of those sources. Try to find independent sources without (or with minimal) bias.
Critical thinking is the key. Google Scholar. Public libraries often provide access to academic databases. This is where you find truth and knowledge - but you have to dig for it. Ir your entire "information diet" is what you're spoonfeed by online information aggregation algorithms and 24/7/365 news channels, it's going to be all sensationalism and pablum, with no balanced view of what is actually going on in the world.
And I believe what I said was, "Don't believe EVERYTHING you see on the Internet." If you know how to properly assess and evaluate your sources, you can find some truth. Snopes.com is good for rumor debunking for one. The Associated Press and PBS are unbiased news sources, because they're not owned by a profit-driven media conglomerates. There is a difference between what you'll find in The New York Times vs The National Enquirer, for example. Sometimes, reading different news magazines (whether in print or online) with different perspectives can help balance your overall view such as Time, Newsweek and The Economist. Maybe add Wired for a technical perspective.
I think he made a good choice. He's not pro-gay and he belongs to a faith that is not pro-gay. But he also didn't want to be blantantly anti-gay or against their rights. So he decided to abstain. Such silence can actually be a form of respect for the ideologies of others, as opposed to initiating conflict.
I think it's wrong to try to force people into certain social or political positions they don't hold for the sake of optics. That's just dishonest. Then trying to threaten them for having a personal stance on something that literally has nothing to do with their actual profession.
The far right and far left both have the same bad practise of expecting people to either think just like they do or suffer consequences. Thinking for oneself is anathema. It's a version of thought policing.
The guy (like all others) has a right to his beliefs, social and political positions. In any other job, I wouldn't expect things like this to even come up, let alone be an issue where people threaten a job. It shouldn't. Because it's personal. Not business. Just let the guy do his actual job. As long as what he believes or does isn't actually harming others (at least off the ice), what's the problem?
Saying he's not "pro-gay" echoes the past sentiments of not being "pro-racial integration". It's dodgy and disingenuous. If gay people make him feel uncomfortable, he should just come out and say so, and not hide it behind the excuse of religion.
What do you mean exactly by a "faith that is not pro-gay"? There are a lot of Christians these days accepting of and embracing their gay brothers and sisters in fellowship instead of ostracizing them like lepers. So what faith exactly are we speaking of here?
Christianity, traditionally, does not support homosexuality. Sure, some have come around, but I wouldn't expect them all to come over. Islam, traditionally, doesn't support it. Nor Judaism. Just because they don't, traditionally, partake, as long as they are not hurting someone, it should not be a problem. Like wise, if you don't want to partake in Easter, Christmas, or anyone else's traditions/religion, your job should not be AND is not effected. People can walk around all day saying they hate Christmas etc...they are allowed. BUT if someone says politely, I'm not okay with homosexuality, their job is threatened, their lively hood is threatened, their life is threatened, they are cancelled. It's not equal. It's very unbalanced thinking, and not healthy. I don't jump at the chance to be in a gay-pride parade anymore than an atheist jumps at the chance to play Jesus in a pageant. Make it make sense. I am not against it...I don't care, I have my own worries! I am neither of these religions, just an objective observer trying to inflect some good sense. The fact that people get all boiled over someone disagreeing with them is a lack of maturity. Maturity is letting others be themselves, whether you believe them to be "right or wrong." It is not up to us to decide who is right or who is wrong. Just to be, and let be. -=80)
Where Christianity 'does not support homosexuality' is due to misreadings/misinterpretations of the Bible and associated political accretions of the era.
That would explain Sodom and Gomorrah
Sodom and Gomorrah was about inhospitality.
True abstinence would have been not to play at all. That wouldn't have impacted his beliefs, thoughts or job.
Couldn't he have just chosen to take that night off?
No muss, no fuss.
Why is everyone overlooking that point?
If I had to attend event that I did not support to keep my job, I'd take the unemployment. He was respectful and didn't make a public announcement in social media that disparaged PRIDE. He didn't go on a shooting rampage. He didn't say he was anti Gay nor does this make him Homophobic. He is religious to his interpretation of Greek Orthodoxy. I have a Catholic friend since we were teens who doesn't condone Gay marriage. It hurts me to know this about her, but she's religious to her interpretation of Catholism. We love each other but rarely see each other. And, who hasn't skipped a gathering for personal or political reasons? Live and Let Live. We, as Human Society need to back off and honor beliefs even when we don't like them.
His religious beliefs do not accept being gay. He is allowed to abide by his beliefs. Many people do not agree with these beliefs and that is their right as well. You cannot force people to accept things. I accept and embrace LGBTQ relationships and belief that people have the right to love who they want. The world is made of many different people who hold many different thoughts. As time goes on and there is more overall acceptance, there will be fewer people who accept religious tenants that try to prescribe certain types of relationships.
Nobody asked HIM to "be gay".