A new survey shows that a comfortable majority of Catholics support legal abortion – upending stereotypes and sparking renewed debate on the controversial issue.
The survey, conducted by Pew Research Center last year, unveiled some surprising statistics about what Catholics in the United States believe.
Despite the Catholic Church being one of the globe’s leading opponents to abortion, 61% of Catholics in the U.S. say that the procedure should be legal in most or all cases.
Interestingly, the results mirror the overall sentiment around abortion in the United States (62% of all U.S. adults support access to abortion).
U.S. Catholics Split From Vatican on Abortion
The Vatican's stance on the issue is quite clear. “Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion,” reads the Catechism, the summarized doctrine of belief of the Catholic Church. “Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.”
Despite the Church’s hard-line stance, nearly two-thirds of Catholics support abortion in some form. But the story is different if you look at people who go to church regularly.
Amongst Catholics who attend Mass weekly, support for abortion drops precipitously, with only 34% in favor.
Some critics have argued that pro-choice Catholics are largely "cultural Catholics" or "Catholics in name only," pointing to the prior statistic to make that point.
Nevertheless, it’s still a surprising statistic considering the Church’s belief that life begins at conception. Only 28% of U.S. Catholics agreeing that abortion should be illegal in most/all cases.
And with (often religiously motivated) anti-abortion laws fervently popping up around the country, the divide between pro-life and pro-choice advocates may only grow wider.
The Arizona Ruling
Earlier this month, the Arizona Supreme Court upheld a strict 160-year-old anti-abortion law that precedes Arizona’s statehood by nearly 50 years.
It moved to reinstate a long-dormant 1864 law, which permits abortion only when the woman’s life is at risk – and would not permit abortion even in the case of rape or incest.
The court ruled that the ancient law could take precedence over the state’s much more recent 15-week abortion ban.
Arizona now joins a number of states which have all but banned abortion in the wake of the Roe repeal.
Catholic Church leaders in Arizona, however, cheered the decision.
The Arizona Catholic Conference, which includes the Diocese of Gallup, the Diocese of Phoenix, and the Diocese of Tucson, released a statement praising the fact that “the Court ruled that Arizona’s pre-Roe law protecting unborn human life from the moment of conception, with a life of the mother exception, is still valid.”
A Very Mixed Reaction
Reaction to the ruling has been mixed across the faith spectrum. Pro-life advocates are celebrating a win that they say will save unborn lives, and pro-choice supporters say the ruling is “an attack on people with uteruses,” as one Arizona woman put it.
An Arizona nursing school graduate chimed in, arguing the ruling “will endanger a lot of people. Laws that were written in the 1800s are not going to reflect today's medical terminology."
Still, the ruling has its supporters. As another Arizona Catholic said, women with unwanted pregnancies “can always adopt a baby out."
The Pew survey did not include breakdowns by state, but it's safe to say that Arizona Catholics are feeling torn by the decision.
This is also not the only issue dividing Catholics lately. Earlier this month, the Vatican rankled many Catholics when it published a document that said "gender ideology" and transgender surgery were "grave threats to humanity."
What is your reaction? And do you see the Arizona ban as a win for the pro-life community, or is it misguided for the court to reinstate a total ban?
111 comments
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Matthew Mastrogiovanni
No one has the right to tell you what to do with your body. Don't like abortions, don't have one. Stop trying to control women! Petrify the patriarchy!
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Rev. Klaire ThD, MA
Matthew, couldn't agree more! One of the most poignant comments I've seen in reply to conservative, anti-abortion types goes like this "don't like abortion? Why not just ignore it in the same way you ignore school shootings!"
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Catherine Schaefer
Or the way most pro-lifers ignore child abuse once that baby starts to grow up.
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ServantOfJudgement
Who's heartbeat is it in the womb? It's not the mother's heartbeat so who's is it? Is it the father's heartbeat? The doctors? If it's none of those people's heartbeat then it's someone else's heartbeat.
I always thought it wasn't very nice when a person stopped someone's heart from beating. When someone tried to stop my heartbeat a while back it didn't feel like the guy was being very nice.
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Amber Fry
First, depends on when you are checking because a heart doesn't fully develop until months in and what is heard early on is a valve that will eventually become part of the heart. Until it's viable around 22-24 weeks there isn't a chance for a fetus to survive outside the womb at all anyway due to the organs not quite being developed enough to support life. Until that point it's only a potential for life as so much can go wrong, as we all have been hearing if we are all paying attention.
Second, as long as that umbilical cord is attached to the woman, it is part of her body and is entirely her choice if she wants it attached. Her body is what will go through changes, some unpleasant and some dangerous. Nobody has a right to tell her she has to go through those changes. Nobody gets to use her body for any reason unless she decides otherwise. Nobody else should have a say.
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Russel A. Kester
Amber, her body her choice applies before she gets pregnant not after. Nobody should have the right to take the life of a developing child without proper laws in place to protect it in all but the most extreme circumstances. The original mantra of the pro-abortion crowd was legal but rare. That is not the case today. Time to go back to the drawing board. Let the law decide when it is appropriate as a woman has other options a child does not.
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Danny D. Maynard
Dead frogs exhibit a beat like a heartbeat. I would more be worried about the brain development. Hearts an be transplanted!
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Russel A. Kester
Matthew, your comment seems much more to do with a feeling of hatred for some perceived patriarchy then it does with either the expectant mother or the baby. So it doesn't seem to be made in good faith.
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Danny D. Maynard
Russel, you sure misinterpreted that comment.
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Daniel Gray
Really? you get told what to do with your body EVERY DAY by the Government. You have to have shots to go to school, you have to in essence take a health test to get a drivers license, you have to get shots when you join the military, you are required to carry health insurance and so on and so forth. If you were true to your claims then you would refuse to do any of this. So go ahead and see how far that actually gets you in life.
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Amber Fry
Public health and safety comes before personal desires dude. Don't confuse that for something that has no bearing on everyone else's life and quite possibly death of an individual. Pregnancy of a woman doesn't affect everyone else in society. Letting a very deadly virus run wild does.
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Daniel Gray
Sorry DUDE, but that conflicts with the claim of my body my choice.
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TZTX
The my body my choice group, changed their beliefs during covid. They were against people who did not want the vaccine. However, Scriptually speaking, read 1 Corinthians6:19-20 19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body
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Matthew W Meister
Truly amazing that you think the "my body my choice" group were the only ones who changed their mind. The absolutists that think the government should make decisions for women's reproductive systems frequently used "my body my choice" as a justification for NOT getting a vaccination. Either both are hypocritical or neither is, but pick a lane. These people turned into the "my body my choice, her body still my choice" crowd.
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Rev Ned
The patriarchy is petrified. That’s why they want to take us into new dark ages.
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Lionheart
Even their God supports abortion, even post birth deaths. Didn't he kill babies, infants, toddlers, children, and also pregnant mothers by drowning them, and also children of the first born due to his anger management issue with Pharaoh? What a monster of a deity, and people want to worship it on their knees.....for ever, when they leave this life. Indoctrination/brain washing doesn't get much worse than this. But hey! He's a god of love.....right?
Thank goodness all we have are mythical tales, or did that psychopathic deity really do that?🤔
🦁♥️
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ServantOfJudgement
Thank God someone is willing to put evil down proper. If only it could happen today, I wouldn't worry about my daughter getting kidnapped, drugged and sold as a sex slave then murdered and chopped up like all those icky pre flood chumps would do to each other.
I can respect a man that's willing to slap the horse a murderer is setting on awaiting judgement. Someone has to.
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Danny D. Maynard
You sure missed the point of that comment. It was: God is an evil, cruel and murderous deity, one to be avoided at all costs! He is not any better that the worst Egyptian deity, then and now!
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ServantOfJudgement
It's not murder when the law executes a murderer Danny nor is it evil.
It's good to protect the innocent by putting down guaranteed murderers and rapists. Nowadays we let the out of jail so they can rape and murder again.
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Daniel Gray
And since you seem to want to claim that this is an imaginary deity Lion, then your statements here are just as imaginary. So why should we believe you now?
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Lionheart
I’m not asking anywhere for you to believe me. I merely point out the idiocy of expecting Christian adherents to believe the god they worship, depicted in those writings, as a loving god. If he really existed, as many, like to believe, he is clearly a monster of a deity, but obviously you think differently, and that’s okay.
People can believe whatever they wish to believe. From my perspective, all gods are mythical. From your perspective, your God is real, and that’s totally okay.
🤣❤️
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TZTX
Blocked understanding
Ephesians 4:18 describes unbelievers as having two characteristics, including blocked understanding, which means their ability to understand what is right is blocked from the light of God. The passage also describes unbelievers as having a hard heart, which means they are alienated from the life of God because of their ignorance and hard heart.
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Lionheart
The book of Ephesians, was attributed to a human being called, Paul, but many scholars believe that he did not write it. However, whoever wrote it is entitled to his/her subjective opinion, as I am mine, and you are yours. It of course does not mean his opinion is true.
The author obviously believes in a deity of some sort, which could also be classed as ignorance, and an alienation of logic and reason, and that's okay. Many on earth do!
Thank you for your comment.
🦁♥️
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Daniel Gray
And yet you constantly imply that he does not exist. Would it be simpler Lion to just say "if this is your belief" and leave it at that?
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Merlin
Patriarchal organization. Women are considered servants to be told what to do.
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ServantOfJudgement
I'll let my Catholic nephew know that, I don't think he and his wife are in on that secret.
He'll be delighted to hear the news I'm sure.
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Danny D. Maynard
Those voting women surely will not agree with Merlin or you!
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Michael Hunt
Oh trust me, they already know.
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Alexander Arends
How can you call yourself a Catholic when you don't accept the doctrines of the church?
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Russel A. Kester
Alexander, one need not agree with every doctrine to be a Catholic just as one doesn't need to agree with everything in a political party's platform to still belong to that party. Catholics, as well as all religious persons I hope, are called upon to follow their conscious. I've heard there are versus in the OT which advocate abortion under some circumstances. Though I haven't yet been able to find them or what circumstances might apply. I am aware that at the time the NT was being written, it common for women of the wealthy class to either find way to abort her child or upon birth to put into a rubbish heap to die. Many of the unwanted bits were the result of orgies and she didn't want the negative consequences of having such children. The early church found all of these practices to reprehensible and sinful. I think I must agree. But such doctrinal stances for the time could not include our medical advanced.to know if a child will suffer terribly at birth and die or if the mother is certain to die. These are truly difficult circumstances where a couple would want the best advice from doctors, their religious leaders, and ethicists..
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Russel A. Kester
White Owl, "Yes, it's possible for a Catholic to act in opposition to the teachings of the church in good faith. The Catholic Catechism states that conscience takes priority over church teaching, and that a person's conscience is their most secret core and sanctuary." https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/conscience-takes-priority-over-church-teaching-says-catholic-catechism-1.3518377
The above quote agrees with what I'm currently reading in a very conservative book on Roman Catholic theology.
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White Owl
What you refer to is the a fore mentioned (T)traditions of the Catholic Church. What your referenced web page is actually quoting is the church letter Dignitatis Humanae, not the Catholic Catechism.
The part of the Catholic Catechism that deals with the subject matter of ones conscience and the guidance it gives to a person is relative to the various (T)traditions of the Catholic Church, not the doctrines. This is what I referenced above in my original post where Catholics have leeway in their personal interpretation of these traditions. This is where the guidance of conscience plays in for them.
Doctrines (or Dogma) is not a matter of debate or conscience for a true Catholic. They are hard fast rules of their Church and faith, with no room for debate.
Abortion in the Catholic Church is a Doctrinal matter and therefore not subject to debate or personal choice for a person who claims to be a Catholic.
Hopefully this clarifies this for you.
Peace R.A.K. White Owl
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Russel A. Kester
White Owl, from Article 6: Moral Conscience, page 490, paragraph 1779, "It is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself in order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience." As found in the the Second Edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, revised in accordance with the official latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II.
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White Owl
Very good Mr. Kester, that is exactly the area of the Catechism that I referenced above ...
"The part of the Catholic Catechism that deals with the subject matter of ones conscience and the guidance it gives to a person is relative to the various (T)traditions of the Catholic Church, not the doctrines. This is what I referenced above in my original post where Catholics have leeway in their personal interpretation of these traditions. This is where the guidance of conscience plays in for them."
It has no bearing whatsoever on Church Doctrine which is immutable.
Thank you for referencing my point.
Again, peace R.A.K.
White Owl
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Russel A. Kester
White Owl, the issue I have with your thinking is that whereas we find positive statements for following our conscience in matters of our faith, there is no positive statement saying that we must believe every article of doctrine. If you know of one, please do reference it so that I may find it and underline it . So far, I come up empty. No such statement, no such requirement.
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White Owl
First a question, are you a Roman Catholic?
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White Owl
My apology I posted prematurely.
If your answer to my question is "No", you are not a Roman Catholic therefore you have no issue, their doctrines and traditions do not apply to you. If your answer is "Yes" then I refer you this link which I believe will help you in this matter.
https://www.catholic.com/audio/caf/does-conscience-trump-doctrine
I hope this helps.
Peace Russel A. Kester,
White Owl
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White Owl
Actually, by definition, one must accept 100% of the Catholic Church's doctrine in order to be an actual Catholic; otherwise they are actually one of the over 50,000+ christian denominations that exist.
There are many who claim to be Catholic but reject portions of the Church's doctrines, they are not actually Catholic even though they claim to be and act as if they are, including going to mass and partaking in the Catholic Church's sacraments. These people are often referred to as cafeteria Catholics, meaning people who pick and choose what they want to follow like a person in a cafeteria line choosing lunch items. They are not valid Catholics.
Do not confuse those people with Catholics who disagree with non-doctrinal traditions of the Catholic church, which are more of guidelines than hard line must follow rules within the Catholic Church. And just to complicate matters a little bit more, inside the Catholic Church are both Traditions and traditions. the Uppercase Traditions are more hard fast rules than the lowercase traditions. These people are still Catholics if they only have issues in the traditions areas.
In short, to be a Catholic all their "doctrines" must be accepted or one is not a Catholic, no matter what one calls their self.
I can call myself a Democrat, a Republican, a Jew, a Muslim, a Catholic, a Lutheran, an Agnostic, a martian, an earthling, the smartest person in the universe and the dumbest person in the universe but that doesn't make me any of them and certainly I cannot be all of them even if I say I am.
Catholics have their rules for what makes a Catholic; it's their group, their rules, if you don't like it you don't get to be in their group.. In which case go make your own group, oh wait, that would be the 50,000+ other christian churches.
Peace be with you all, White Owl
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Danny D. Maynard
Who gets to decide what you, me or they are? The rules you describe for being a true and steadfast Catholic sure do sound like being a Cafeteria Christian.
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White Owl
They get to decide. It is their organization, they made it, they make their rules for their members, just like any other club, group or organization, religious or not.
Peace D.D.M., White Owl
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ServantOfJudgement
I'd say there are billions of christian denominations White Owl. Since Christianity is actually a personal relationship with the creator, we can surmise that each unique person has a unique denomination.
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White Owl
I would agree that your point has merit, yet also there are organized faiths that supposedly represent people of like beliefs. My numerical reference was only to these organized faiths that have registered with the governmental agencies in their area.
I agree that those who are not a member of these faiths are still in their own right are a unique denomination, if they see themselves that way, governmental recognition or not.
Peace SoJ, White Owl
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Patricia Ann Gross
White Owl, I would guess, that according to your definition of a "true" Catholic and humans being human, that there is not a single true Catholic on this earth, except, perhaps, the Pope (who gets to make the rules) that believes 100% of the Catholic Doctrine, as all are fallable and have been given choice by their creator. Most people who are not spoon fed their religion (such as in cultist types of organizations), have an evolving faith and at times will question the doctrines of their belief system or denomination. I know I have, and it makes my relationship with my Creator much better to go through periods of deconstruction and discernment. It doesn't make me any less of a Christian either, although I have been accused of that more than once. Belief and doctrine are not binary "all or nothing" concepts. There is a continuum of acceptance.
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White Owl
Ms. Gross,
Thank you for your input.
First by "my definition" of a true Catholic "one must accept 100% of the Catholic Church's doctrine in order to be an actual Catholic". I say nothing about being able to follow the Doctrine without fail.The failing nature of humanity is exactly why Catholics and other Christians accept Jesus as their Lord and savior, because only he could cover the cost of all of imperfect humanities sins that they have, do and will commit. Just because one sins by failing to follow their Doctrine it doesn't disqualify them or get them kicked out of the Catholic Church, In fact this is exactly what their sacrament of Reconciliation is about. Even the pope is recognized as being a mortal human being who sins and fails in his efforts to do otherwise. Their point, as well as Jesus' point, is that humans will sin but that doesn't have to exclude them from grace. A sinner can pick their self back up, repent and ask for Jesus' forgiveness and then try to do their best to sin no more. The key there being true repentance and follow thru of attempting to never repeat the sin again.
As for questioning ones faith/church, I couldn't agree more. I have a saying I use often, "If your faith can't handle questions then maybe you should question your faith." Catholics follow a similar concept when dealing with a large portion of their faith. This is the (T)traditions I refer to in some of the above post including the discussion on conscience in the Catholic Catechism. (Keep in mind this post you've responded to was once higher up in this thread and occurred ahead of all my other comments under Alexander Arends' post.) I would guess that your own periods of question, deconstruction and discernment have probably made you a better Christian not less of one.
Your statement of "Belief and doctrine are not binary "all or nothing" concepts." I only half agree with. Belief is highly fluid and an ever living and growing part of each individuals existence. Doctrine, however, is a more tangible rule set that typically has been thought through, debated and ratified by a group as their set rules. Like a government law, not easily changed. In the case of Catholics their Doctrines are 'set in stone' and not likely to see change in a lifetime if ever. Therefore as pertaining to this thread about Catholic Doctrine/Dogma specifically as it relates to those who claim to be Catholic, it is an all or nothing concept for them.
Lastly, I put "my definition" in quotes above because it is not my definition of a Catholic, but my original post states that "by definition" meaning that part of the definition of being a true Catholic involves following their rules but in no way is that the entirety of the definition of a Catholic.
Peace to you Patricia Ann Gross,
White Owl
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Mountainsage
This is an intensely personal issue; one that should be decided between the woman and her doctor and the baby’s father if he’s interested. One must walk in the shoes of the other person. Personally, I would never want to have to do this but a woman’s body is her own and not the governments’ or any political party.
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Russel A. Kester
The decision can certainly be seen as a win for pro-life advocates. But they might have only won a battle and not the war. Strategically, winning people's hearts through debate might have had better long term results than seeking to codify their beliefs in law. At heart, this is a war of ideologies between a feminism that preaches selfish self-interest and personal convenience above selfless love of family and acknowledging the sanctity of life. We see such a form of feminism leading to a precipitous decline in birth rates that are unsustainable and families in crisis. Traditional Judeo-Christian values offer a way to return to sanity, humility, and love.
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Danny D. Maynard
You sure do mischaracterize the need for abortions as healthcare. And the need to tell others to live as Christians is the epitome of religious arrogance. Christianity is not a majority religion. And it seems to be dwindling. I wonder why ... not! There was no need to wonder why!
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Patricia Ann Gross
After the post WWII "baby boom," the earth's overpopulation became a big issue, so I don't get your "decline in the birthrates are unsustainable" remark. This is not about "selfish self-interests" or "personal convenience," unless being treated as a whole human being with a brain and ability can be characterized that way. Personal autonomy within the patriarchal societies has always looked down on women as property (which is why a father "gives away" a daughter according to wedding tradition). Acknowledging the sanctity of life and selfless love of family includes the man acknowledging the woman as a human being with the ability of being more than a "baby factory." As one who has never faced having to make the choice, I can't condemn those who have, but those I know who have all went through serious anxiety leading up to the decision. It is not a matter of convenience for most, it is a matter of health for the mother. Personally, I can't say I am in favor of it as a method of birth control, as for most it is not. Not allowing them for rape, incest, or when the mother's life is in danger is inhumane.
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Russel A. Kester
Patricia, the baby-boom after WWII wasn't a reason for worldwide overpopulation concerns. Population growth in other countries was. When a population fails to have enough children to replace itself the resulting decline leads to economic and other societal pressures which leads to societal collapse. This is aggravated when the reason for the decline isn't due to a carefully crafted government program but from unanticipated declines from females not having children in favor of having advanced degrees and careers in some mistaken belief that those things will give them a sense of power and fulfillment. They don't. Your response sees some mythical patriarchy determined to make woman subservient child bearing victims. That entire perspective is very warped. But the common thread running through it is that it was all about a woman, her wants, and her needs. That's the selfish and self-centered aspect. When the family was mentioned, it was in terms of how men needed to change. Again from the woman's perspective. Your statement that the abortions you know of were done for the health of the mother lacked any specifics. One source reads the "Surgeon General of the United States Dr. C. Everett Koop said 'The fact of the matter is that abortion as a necessity to save the life of the mother is so rare as to be nonexistent.'” https://www.hli.org/resources/what-percentage-of-abortions-are-medically-necessary/ So the idea that they were medically necessary is specious given medicine has only improved since Dr. Koop's statement. If these procedures are not done for bonafide medical reasons then they are done for reasons of convenience. And these convenient abortions have led to birth rates below those capable of sustaining the population. The reasons for these abortions of convenience are dictated by an unhealthy form of feminism. Resulting in a society in crisis from decline in birth rates and, when children are born, they are being raised by persons other than their mothers to the detriment of the child. As is the absence of a father because the parents could not cohabitate peacefully. Societies need women to bear children and children need loving, caring mothers who are there for them. I look forward to a form of feminism that will be about the whole family and not just about the woman.
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Chris
If a religion doesn't agree with something, they don't have to do it. They do not have the right to tell anyone else what they can or cannot do. That's why we in the US have the First Amendment prohibiting a national religion or the support of one over any others. Since most religions teach free will, telling followers what they can and cannot do seems counter-intuitive.
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Danny D. Maynard
That is a nice and succinct but complete definition of the problems we now face. Those "Do-gooders" are a real problem, obviously because "their intentions" do not match properly with "their actions".
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Amber Fry
Actually no, the problem is people pushing their beliefs on everyone else instead of living by their own beliefs and letting others do as they need for their own health and well being.
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Rebecca L Tice
When all those good women get into the privacy of the voting booth... they will still be women.
The law in Arizona was actually a territorial law devised by men... voted on by men... over the objection of women who were subjected to those men.
Women alone in a voting booth... with the power to take back the say over their own bodies.... may surprise everyone... they may protect the woman more than the future workforce.
Because the vote is "private".... they can "act" horrified when the vote goes against the rules devised by their men. They can say "it's a good thing I voted the way I did".
Yes... stopping abortions saves babies... but it can kill a woman.
Women are different than men... they are of dirt... we are of bone. We can give birth... they can only spill seed.
Women will vote and then we will all be surprised.
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Russel A. Kester
Rebecca, you imply that Arizona women in 1864 objected to abortion. I'm not convinced that's true. While there might have been some advocates of abortion, the country was still quite religious with strong anti-abortion sentiments. Arizona would not have been an exception. It's more likely that the majority of women in Arizona in 1864 would have supported anti-abortion laws.
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Rebecca L Tice
Russel.... We'll never know how the women in Arizona felt about the law in 1864 because women weren't "given" the right to vote until 1912.
The law was written by men... and passed by men... and women had no say.
I know there were a lot of "religious" reasons for this law back in the days it was passed. There are a lot of Latterday Saints in Arizona. There were a lot of Catholics who still listened to the Pope back in those days. But women had no vote. Women had no say.
What does it say about us "Christian Humans" when we consider.... a woman would rather kill herself than have a baby. That's a really rough statement to abide by and say it is "more likely".
Men don't have a clue. Oh and I'm still pro-life... I adopted my granddaughter rather than allow my daughter to have an abortion.
Joshua 24:15 "As for me and my house... we will serve the Lord".
No... you can't tell me, Russell, that women were "more likely" to vote for or against... because they weren't "given" the right to vote.
Some women would rather die than bring a child into this world... that's what this SHOULD be about.
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Russel A. Kester
Rebecca, it is because women did not have the right to vote in 1864 that we have been speaking hypothetically. Given the chance to vote it is most likely they would have voted in accordance with their beliefs at the time which were much more religious and conservative; therefore, they would in all likelihood have voted for that law. Your posts assume a fight by women against a patriarchy without foundation. Given the religious sentiment of the times, women followed the Christian Scriptures and believed that men were head of the house and women were to be submissive and obedient to their husbands. The feminist movement didn't really start until about 1848 which doesn't allow enough time for the resistance you assume.
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Amber Fry
The fact remains that none of the people back then are alive now. We have to set laws according to the people today and what they need. Women today, the majority of society today want the right to choose according to their own needs. Nobody but she and her doctor should be deciding that.
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Daniel Gray
No we dont, what you are trying to say is that we need to set the laws according to YOUR beliefs. and when we start doing that all it creates is confusion.
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ServantOfJudgement
It's weird how we use words like "The Patriot Act" to violate the constitution and spy on Americans. American Rescue Plan that burdens Americans that didn't need rescuing. Reproductive Rights to not reproduce. It seems we play on words to instill the opposite belief of what we mean. My body my choice so we can cut someone's else's body up. My body my choice however doesn't apply when it comes to vaccines that don't vaccinate. Then you're apparently walking around with the governments body, the corporations body and society's body, definitely not your body.
It's encouraging to see the things Jesus foretold of happening before my eyes even if it's heartbreaking. When a civilization reaches our position, they either get destroyed or they do an about face and get their ducks in a row. You can literally follow our path in the many examples of destroyed nations in the bible. You can hold our current condition to the destroy nations condition side by side, easily and reliably predict what will happen.
The abortion table has become come an altar, a shrine. You can watch news station after news station say the same thing again and again every time a state issues abortion as a constitutional right.
"Abortion rights were enshrined in the constitution with yesterday's vote"
Ask a Canaanite what happens when you do that sort of thing, if you can find one.
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Rolando Couce
Well they are not real Catholics. I guess people forgot about that shalt not kill we have a lot of baby killers here
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Russel A. Kester
Amber, yes, they are killing babies. Your definition is created to support a particular view by naming only those fetuses that can survive outside the womb as babies. From conception to birth that is a human being. Changes in physical features or survivability does not change it's status as a human being. A fetus (the latin term for a baby) might not be able to survive on its own but neither can a baby forage for its own food after birth. Both need to be fed and cared for by others. Your definition and argument are not convincing.
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Amber Fry
Only they are not killing babies. They are removing cells that will become babies if allowed to continue to grow. Babies can survive outside the womb. When an abortion happens, what is removed cannot survive outside the womb. Most abortions happen around the 13-15 week mark where it still looks like a shrimp or a wad of chewing gum. Late term abortions rarely happen but when they do it's because there is no chance for it to survive anyway and it staying there threatens the life and fertility of the woman carrying it. People really need to look deeper into fetal development and medical procedures around pregnancy.
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
another page in the cristo-fascist agenda's manifesto:
there is no god but the one I believe in my god is the one true god you shall worship my god in the manner that I do you shall obey my god and the rule of my god there is no god but my god we are committed to making all people bow down to our one, true god my god obey me
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Rev. Dr. Father JJ
another page in the cristo-fascist agenda's manifesto:
there is no god but the one I believe in
my god is the one true god
you shall worship my god in the manner that I do
you shall obey my god and the rule of my god
there is no god but my god
we are committed to making all people bow down to our one, true god
my god
obey
me
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PT Barnum
Finally the Pope takes a secular stance. I agree that he should oppose abortion except for those where the life of the mother is at risk, the baby has known congenital defects or life threatening complications, rape and incest. Unfortunately abortion has become a necessary evil but to many women and man are routinely shirking their responsibilities when engaging in sexual activities by taking precautions to prevent unwanted pregnancy because abortion has become so trivialized as a alternative method for birth control. Risk of pregnancy should be in the forefront of anyone’s mind when engaging in sex and understanding that an unwanted pregnancy may result in the death of a human being should always be considered. I fail to understand how any woman would want to take the risk of killing an unborn child for unprotected sexual pleasure. I despise abortion but recognize that it has become ingrained in American women’s minds as being an acceptable option instead of respecting their gift of creating a life, just like theirs began, and disregarding their precious gift for convenience. I think there has to be a middle ground, possibly 16 weeks (far too long to wait) for abortion access. However there should be counseling provided that includes other options and education on prevention and ethics and also an option for medical sterilization for women or men that simply do not care. I know that may sound harsh but killing the unborn is far worse.
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PT Barnum
In the Pope’s stance on transgender issues. I think people need to start understanding and separating Transgenderism from mainstream LGBQT issues. Transgender can be extremely difficult for individuals especially when it involves body dysmorphia and deep psychological issues associated with gender identity disorder or confusion. The medical data that is available for pre and post gender surgery appears to show no difference in suicide rates between those that do not have gender reassignment surgery and those that do. The data clearly shows that young individuals, particularly children routinely change their minds while growing and represent a significant risk to them by introducing medical interventions supporting gender reassignment therapy too early. LGBQ are part of the mainstream and just as accepted as anyone else in society. I wish we publicly celebrated our reverence and faith as freely as we celebrate sexual freedom. I wish the celebration of sexual freedom would finally be realized as being mainstream and unnecessary instead of devoting months or whatever to it.
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He Who Breathes
So - They are not really Catholic then.
Unless of course, it is a flexible religion, where the basic rules can be readily changed...
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Danny D. Maynard
Time, place and actors will always change the rules and regulations needed for society to exist.
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ServantOfJudgement
King George Bush 2nd said something like 'We have to abandon the free market principle to save the free market' or some such drivel.
During the childs presidency democrats hated war and loved personal privacy. During the walking corpses presidency they love war and hate personal privacy. The reverse can be said about Republicans.
Danny, you couldn't be more right.
The question is, who's society will finally exist. My guess is the war loving personal privacy hating society.
Were screwed.
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Danny D. Maynard
Privacy went out the window with telephone. Police radio had it effects too. The Internet has made it even less private. I am not sure who the Controllers of War are, but they should be put in front of a firing squad and shot (in the legs) ... well, just imprison them for life with parole ... AND no interface with any non-prison personnel, the screws or any lawyers. They can eat and sleep in small cells for the remainder of their lives. War is a crime! "Netanyahoo" is a criminal. Hamas leaders are criminals and Iran leaders are criminals too.
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Gilbert Bruce Crabtree
I love the part where you say "shot in the legs". War has almost always been a big business windfall for corporations, with no real interest in the men and women being sacrificed to gain wealth and political influence for the few.
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Michael Sciulli
The book revelation tells things going happen you have free will chose the right path trust in Jesus.godbless from ministermike
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Nicholas J Page
Its a womans body if she gets pregnant why have an abortion in the first place unless the child is seriously disabled and the woman couldnt cope but then again why not use protection if the baby is not wanted?
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Tecla Caryl Loup
Using protection is a little difficult in cases of rape, don't you think?
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White Owl
Only 5% of rapes end in pregnancy. Source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8765248/.
And those that end in abortions account for 1% of all abortions. Source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/05/24/rape-and-incest-account-few-abortions-so-why-all-attention/1211175001/
It's the other 99% that most Pro Lifers are mostly concerned with.
Peace be with you TCL, White Owl
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Patricia Ann Gross
Protection is not 100% effective, and most women are not told that taking antibiotics reduce the effectiveness of birth control pills. I know of people who got pregnant because they had an infection that required antibiotics. They were only told after the pregnancy test came back posititve.
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Rev. Michael Gerraghty II
The very god of the bible is infanticidal, What a hypocritical religion...
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Joseph S Worley
I am pro those who can not care a developing clump of cells that may or may not become a child and deal with all the various life threatening changes that take place during said process should have no say in the medical choices of those who can. Basically I am against the masculine telling the feminine what they can and can not do with their own bodies.
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Mark Furnari
Would we expect a different perspective from the Catholic Church? As a human raised in the Catholic Church, I exited at the age of 19 when I realized that an ancient cabal of men had usurped the early messages of generosity, kindness and respect for positions of power. This was formalized when the Holy Roman Empire established Christianity as a state religion. When the Catholic Church admits its mistakes of the Council of Nicea, the largest being the removal of women priests from the clergy, it will take a giant leap forward. Until that time, it is a cult of men, deeply off track from history and a modern concept of spirituality.
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Robert T. Greuling
Let God decide who lives and when someone is to die.
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Steven Ferrell
I personally feel abortion is murder. Putting that aside I bet many did not know that in many states a woman can be on her way to kill her baby and that if someone runs a red light let’s say, hits her car which causes her to lose the baby, that person can then be charged with murder of the unborn child that the woman was on her way to murder anyway.
So it’s not a life if the woman wants to kill the baby, but it is a life if someone else causes the death of that baby and they can go to prison and have to pay the mother for that life being taken.
So is it a life, or is it not? It can’t be both.
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LJ Schalm
Can't have it both ways. The Church needs to support education and contraceptives to avoid unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. In the USA, there are few reasons that unwanted pregnancies should occur occur between two consenting adults. And, with regards to abortions, there are situations which justify abortions. Catholics who are pro-life can support strict laws against abortions in those non-justifiable situations (rape, incest, fetal damage, risk to mother's life, etc.) They should also be strong supporters of education and use of contraceptives to avoid unwanted pregnancies which lead to abortions. As a Catholic who has educated myself into the stance Pope Paul the VI took on use of contraception, it's important to note that a majority Bishops and Cardinals that surrounded him during the decision making process did not agree with his conclusion.
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Rex Rowe Lippold
I have to agree with most of the comments on using Abortion as a Birth Control, you all talk about "It's not your body" but what about the unborn child that has been given NO Choice at all, We/You, need to start acting in a way that is pleasing unto our Father in Heaven, and He is not one that believes in taking the life of a child, in fact he says, "It would be better to tie a Mill Stone around your neck and be tossed into the deepest ocean then to harm one of my children of God".
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Takaya Kovani Sweeney
It’s about minding your own fg business.
People can’t do it.
Always wanting to dictate someone else’s life when their own shxt is in shambles.
Especially these child rapey azz priests…give me a fg break.
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Mitch
It's interesting that the loudest pro-life voices seem to be vastly Christian, even though they have apparent breaks in their own ranks per that Pew report. That tells me that the pro-life stance is theologically based, even though they seem to claim scientific basis. Therefore it should be separated from public law.
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Russel A. Kester
Mitch, your comment seems to indicate that one stance must be either theological or scientific. But once stance can be both. It's not an either or dilemma.
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Jeanette A Jacobs
If you don't want a baby, keep your legs shut or use a condom! It's as simple as that! There are plenty of families that pray to God everyday for a baby! Give it up for adoption
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Robert S. McKenzie
Abortion, Lying, Cheating , Stealing, Adultery, ETC, ETC. are decisions we all must make daily. Leave these up to the individual to commit, live with, or work out by themselves. the government and others should NEVER EVER, be involved in making these decisions the individual must live with their own actions and or suffer the consequences of. As an ordained minister, I believe this MUST be left up to the individual and their families to work out for themselves and if they need help in making their decisions then, and only then, would they turn to others to aid in their very difficult decisions. The government must stay out of this and has no business whatsoever even in the discussion! This seems like such a commons sense approach that It is very hard to understand why the government and or politicians don't get it!
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P. Keith Benefiel
Find the bible verse that contradicts Genesis 2:7
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Linda Norden
I agree with James. I do not agree with abortion as birth control, but I do believe in it being a choice.
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Deborah Lynn McIntosh
I have never had an abortion, but unless you are willing to adopt and support the babies, then keep your laws off women’s bodies. If you’re against abortion, simple, don’t get one.
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Wendy Sue Roithner
I have always been pro-choice. I even wrote the included paper on it years ago.
THE CHOICE IS YOURS
Wendy S. Butterworth, Bruce, Moon, Roithner November 20, 1995
Pro-lifers and pro-abortionists are trying to make personal decisions in the lives of people they know nothing about. Having an abortion should be a choice made by the individual that is pregnant, because their age may not be appropriate for raising a child, the circumstances of how they became pregnant, or the pregnancy itself may be a health risk to the mother, child, or both. The first reason that people should have a choice about being pregnant or not is because of the age of the person that is pregnant. If a girl in her teens finds herself pregnant, especially her young teens, child bearing and/or raising a child could affect her mentally as well as physically. A teen usually will have a hard time informing her parents or even a close friend of her condition. Without the proper medical supervision, the teen could be putting herself and the fetus in jeopardy. The teen may not be mature enough to raise a child, or even able to decide on her own if the child should be aborted or carried to full-term. Giving birth is a very traumatic experience, and even some adults have difficulty with it. It is not something that a person goes through and then it's over. There are after effects of giving birth that some people can not handle on their own. An adult who finds herself pregnant and already has children that are grown, may go through denial. They have a problem believing that they are pregnant, and subsequently will not see a doctor right away. They may not be prepared to be in the situation of raising more children, even adoption may not be the right choice. If an older adult finds herself pregnant and are unable to go back to the new mother stage, she has a very important decision to make. If the child isn't wanted and the mother is too confused to make a decision, chances are the adult will not take the proper steps in insuring the development of a healthy baby. In either situation, young or old, the person who is pregnant needs the support of family and friends. The supporters must realize that the final decision is not theirs to make. Family and friends can give advice and must accept the decision that is made from that advice. Pressuring the woman that is pregnant may cause her to make the wrong decision for her situation. A more important reason for allowing the woman that is pregnant a choice is the circumstances surrounding the pregnancy. How did the she become pregnant? If she was raped, or even manipulated into sex she may not wish to bring that child into the world. If the pregnancy is a result of rape, the rape itself is a lot to deal with. To expect a woman that has been raped to nurture the result of a rape could be asking too much. Being manipulated into sex is a sad, but a very real facet in life, and it is usually a situation that a teen will find herself in. A boyfriend may use his girlfriend's insecurities to get her to do things that she wouldn't normally do, and sex could be one of those things. A pregnancy could result from wanting to please or prove to a boyfriend that he is loved, or to try insuring that the relationship will last. The only problem is if the act causes pregnancy the boyfriend will usually back out of the relationship as soon as the pregnancy is confirmed, therefore, leaving the girl to handle the situation on her own. Most importantly, if the pregnancy is a health risk the choice could be a matter of life or death. There are numerous risks of pregnancy, any one of the risks could make death a possibility for the mother and child. Birth defects, detected during a pregnancy, may also raise questions of the quality of the life the baby could face. Some women have problems during pregnancy, that force them to be bedridden, they must decide if they can follow the doctor's instructions to the letter. Someone that already has children to care for may not be able to spend 9 months in bed. A sexually transmitted disease that can be passed on to the fetus during pregnancy, or the child during birth, may raise very important questions also. If a woman finds herself pregnant she needs to know that she has a choice, especially if she's too young, too old, been a victim of rape or manipulation, or she or the child's health are put at risk by the pregnancy. No one should be forced to go through such a traumatic experience. Pregnancy and child birth are only temporary situations, motherhood lasts a lifetime. When the woman decides, whether it is abortion, adoption, or motherhood, she should stick to her decision as long as nothing life threatening changes the situation. Making a choice is a right, and no one should take it lightly. The choice is yours!
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Michelle Kitz
It seems to me that most who are "pro-life" are really just pro-birth. They only seem to care up until the child is born and then where are those people? I am a person who could have gotten pregnant but chose not to for many reasons that are quite personal. I think it is a personal decision of every person with a uterus as to whether they should have a baby or not. And, one of the basic tenets of this country is the separation of church and state. So the religious question shouldn't even be a consideration.
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Russel A. Kester
Michelle, the decision to get pregnant or not is one's own. Once pregnant it is not. Having a child should not be the sole decision of a woman. It should be a decision between a man and a woman together. If they agree to have a child then it is a tacit agreement that they will also raise the child together.
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Margarita R
Generally, I don't comment here. However, being that this is a woman's issue, I will give you my perspective as a woman. Abortion is a subject that should be discussed between a woman and her doctor. Period. If you don't have a uterus, your opinion is yours and no one else's. It doesn't matter what you think. Having grown up suffering with endometriosis every time I got my period, you do not get to dictate what I do with said uterus. The monthly labor pains grant me that right to decide. My decisions are between me and my God, if I believe in one. I lost my first pregnancy at 25.5 weeks. It was not viable even at that stage. Despite that, I was subjected to drug tests and other tests to determine if I had done something to cause me to give birth prematurely. They treated me as if I were a criminal. My daughter, who live for 4 days, was very much wanted and loved. The suffering I went through was monumental. When I was pregnant again, I told my Dr to let me know if there was a chance of this happening again. Had he told me the chances of it happening were high, I would have walked into the nearest clinic and gotten an abortion. No one, but me gets to decide what is right for me. I have 2 daughters and if they ever decide they want an abortion, I will be there to hold their hand. I do not get to judge them for their choices. Their body, their choice. My morality doesn't govern them. My religious beliefs don't get to govern them. Neither do yours.
Regards,
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Simon Cornelius Tempest
There is no reasonable discussion for this subject. All is argumentation . . abortion is murder.
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Charles Jude Platt
Being a permanently lapsed former Catholic, I find it disturbing that RC Church still practices middle ages philosophy on birth control. I believe many abortions are at the altar of the church.
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CJC
I don't have the right to tell anyone what to do with their body. Don't like tattoos, don't get one...
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Patrick Alois deHertogh
I'm 62 frankly I'm sick of hearing about this. Do as thou will is the whole of the law. This is situational what's your situation? And if you're religious then don't worry. You are not to judge. We will get exactly what we deserve. That in mind do what you believe best. This is just another distraction. Frankly I don't care. The human race is still trying to figure out which shoe goes on what foot. Give it a rest! Already.
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Russel A. Kester
Patrick, I think you forgot the first part of the Wiccan Rede, " 'an it harm none, do as thou wilt." It is a personal guide not appropriate for public situations where we must make decisions which require our best judgement. If abortion, for example, hurts someone, the growing baby, then it is wrong.
I cannot agree with the situational ethics you advocate. For example, making child sacrifices is wrong in all places at all times. That is a universal, objective statement independent of the situation. To disagree is the believe that child sacrifice is acceptable. If you don't find it acceptable, then you don't really follow situational ethics.
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Tim Williams
Absolutely believe that abortion is not just murder but take’s judgment out of Gods hands. The only time I can see a way is when absolutely will save the mother’s life. God knew you before you were born
Not being a person who can get pregnent, I try to stay out of this argument except to say there is a difference between being against abortion and being against using abortion as birth control.
I don't know who you been talking to but it's not used as birth control. Typically it is used when birth control fails or when the fetus just isn't viable.
Or when she was so high last night that she can't remember if she used protection, so she turns to the morning after pill. If you think this does not happen, then I know who you have been talking to..
I am a mother and a pro-lifer, but I certainly do agree with you, James. To use abortion for birth control is the murder of innocent victims.
James, nice phrasing on abortion in principal versus abortion as birth control. I think you hit on many people's concerns about the current practice and numbers of abortion today.
As someone who used to be able to get pregnant, who now has 2 grown children and had an abortion at 18 yrs. old I think pro-choice and pro-life are wrong terms. I think pro-need is more appropriate. I was living in a tent, swiping food from grocery stores that didn't have cameras. Planned parenthood was there for me.
Being irresponsible or making a mistake shouldn't be punishable. Abstinence hasn't worked since Adam and Eve hooked up. So that's out. Instead of closing the barn door after the horses got out, we should educate parents and teens on how to get reversible birth control options like IUD for women (99% success rate) and vasectomy for men (95%) success rate. Birth control pills are still a viable option with a 99% success rate as well, but missing a pill day lowers its effectiveness.
There is an easy, fail safe way to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Men: stop ejaculating into your partner. Period. ..unless you are prepared to take responsibility for the results.... This whole ENTITLEMENT that men have is pure and simple sexism. In fact, it is downright the ultimate in cruel selfishness. An outrage considering all the hellish horror that can be bestowed on the woman. It all boils down to this: Here's my (load)--you're problem! Too bad for you--but I got mine. Period. Men of responsibility and consciousness try to do something better. They take responsibility for their ejaculate. Better for himself, for her and for the planet since everything is connected to everything else. That is the mentally healthy egalitarian male. Period.
Good one James.
The Catholic Church doesn't permit birth control either. I agree that abortion is a poor substitute for birth control, but they are both forbidden by the church.
Of course. It’s bad for business. The fewer little minds being groomed in Sunday School, the fewer future adults filling the pews and coffers.