In case you haven't been paying attention, there is a war brewing in Europe. Not a war in the traditional sense, but a war of cultures. As more and more people from Muslim countries are arriving in Europe, there is growing discontent among Europeans who view Muslim culture and values as distinct threats to their traditional way of life. While there has always existed cultural tension between these groups (you may remember France's infamous Muslim head-scarf ban instituted back in 2004), the huge influx of Muslim immigrants over the past few years has intensified the situation.
Deeper Than Terrorism
When looking for the inherent cause of the hostility, it would be easy to point to the numerous acts of Islamic terrorism carried out across Europe (and around the world) over the years. Terrorist attacks have undoubtedly helped to shape the view of Islam as a violent and backwards religion with few redeeming qualities. However, the extremists who committed these attacks represent only a small minority of Muslims. So why have anti-immigrant political groups gained so much popularity recently? A closer analysis shows that the tension between Muslim immigrants and European residents runs much deeper than simple violence.
Switzerland Incident
In order to better understand the culture war simmering in Europe, let's look to a recent incident in Switzerland. Earlier this year, two Muslim boys refused to shake the hand of their female teacher. No big deal, right? Well, it turns out that shaking hands with your teacher is an essential part of Swiss educational culture in fact, it's a mandatory daily ritual. However, Islam does not permit physical contact with a person of the opposite sex. When news of the event was publicized, it resulted in national outrage. The school, which initially said the boys didn't have to do the handshake, was forced to backpedal and appeal to a regional authority for a ruling. The final decision: any student who refused to follow the tradition of shaking hands with their teacher would be fined $5,000.
How could the simple act of refusing to shake a teacher's hand provoke such an extreme reaction?
The simple answer is that what happened in Switzerland is symbolic of a larger issue: the values and customs of Islam are fundamentally at odds with existing European culture. Swiss tradition dictates that all students must shake the hand of their teacher. Refusing to do so, especially on religious grounds, was not just disrespectful it was seen as an attack on Swiss culture as a whole. You could argue that the authorities overreacted, but it's important to understand things from their perspective. While Europe has a reputation for generally being tolerant and open-minded, this is just one of many indications that the situation may be reaching a breaking point.
Growing Unrest
All over Europe, natural-born citizens are becoming increasingly wary of what some characterize as "Muslim infiltration". They worry about a breakdown of the European social fabric as Muslim immigrants get away with more and more under the guise of "religious rights". It may seem like an overreaction, but the popularity of this opinion is growing anti-immigration protests have sprung up in almost every major European country. To further put things in perspective, when Austria held its presidential election last week, an anti-immigrant candidate from the fascist party (think Donald Trump but more extreme) lost by a mere 1% of the vote.
Islamophobia or Real Concern?
Part of this backlash seems to stem from the fact that very few European political leaders
are willing to talk about the consequences of immigration. For better or for worse, we live in a politically correct world and people who express concern about Muslim immigration in Europe are frequently labeled Islamophobic. While it may be true that some members of the anti-immigration crowd are simply bigoted, the concerns voiced by this group as a whole do seem genuine after all, wanting to preserving one's customs and culture is a natural instinct. Some people argue that the cultural differences are just too extreme, and that Europeans and Muslims will never be able to peacefully coexist. Sadly, they may have a point. Even in decent economic times, relations are unstable. One shudders to imagine what might happen if Europe's economy started failing.
This is obviously a complex issue. Migrants are coming to Europe to escape hostile political and economic conditions back home, but they're bringing with them a religion that in many ways is incompatible with European culture. Eventually, something has got to give. What do you think? Should Europe continue to accept Muslim immigrants? Is Islamophobia the problem here, or could it be Islam itself?
167 comments
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Marty
I'm afraid my response may piss off some people, but these comments are fact, not fear. Muslim people's sick society says it's okay for them to marry off and defile girls as young as nine years of age. They feel it's okay to molest children and mutilate their women. They have no desire to submit, even a little bit to fit in a society they are not from. So I ask, why should I have to tolerate a child molesting wife beater? They are going to someone else's land. They should conform to the area, not force everyone to follow Islam. I follow Christ, not a "moon goddess". Which is what Allah means.
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Dreamsinger
Allah is a male god, and the head of a monotheistic religion. As for "moon goddess", which is based on non-Abrahamic pantheons, are you referring to any of these lovely ladies? http://www.goddess-guide.com/moon-goddess.html
In regards to your concern that Muslims approve of child brides and enjoy child molestation:
Ted Nugent: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-womack/ted-nugents-jailbait-problem_b_4840060.html
Phil Robertson: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/01/duck-dynasty-phil-robertson-child-brides
Rush Limbaugh (which has reports going back at least as far back as 2006): http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/4/20/858893/-
Former Speaker of the House, Dennis Hastert: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/04/27/ex-speaker-dennis-hastert-faces-sentencing-chicago/83584440/
Jerry Sandusky: http://gawker.com/jerry-sanduskys-adopted-son-reveals-horrifying-sexual-a-1607115179
All of these gentlemen are (or, in Sandusky's case, were) familiar and famous in America. They make albums, they host broadcast shows, they ran our government and coached our sports teams. One thing they're not: And they use the Bible as their reason for being the evil they warn of.
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Dreamsinger
One thing they're not: Muslim.
Apologies. I need to grab some lunch. Be good or be good at it, folks!
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Brother John
Your response didn't piss me off at all, Marty. I'm not even sickened by comments like this anymore. Probably more saddened at this point. Self-imposed ignorance is pathetic in this day and age. I did want to add a few hundred names to Dreamsinger's list. Keep in mind that these are the few who've been reported, from a single church, in a single country. Most of them are also ordained, not just "Christians". This means your comparison would have to be with Mullahs, Murshids and Ayatollahs. Why don't you focus your righteous moral indignation on your own corrupt, immoral Christian churches and quit with the bigoted ignorance?
http://bishop-accountability.org/priestdb/PriestDBbylastName-A.html
You said, "So I ask, why should I have to tolerate a child molesting wife beater?" You don't, nor should you as a moral human being. Nor do you have to tolerate the sexual and other abuses in many of the Christian churches, or believe in the God of the Bible, accurately described as "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
In case you didn't realize it, you're on a forum that includes Atheists, Pagans, Druids and others who do not share your beliefs, some of whom will challenge proselytizing and misinformation or myths presented as facts.
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Dreamsinger
And when I originally signed on to become a Reverend, I didn't want to. I didn't want to be in this role at all, mostly because of the bad reputation that clergy have (rightly) earned. I didn't want to be a Reverend, because I didn't want it to be the only means to have a say in our country, Restrepo. To be considered "American". To be considered "human" and worth being treated as such.
After having directly seen so much, in two different countries, it was probably the hardest choice I had to make. I made it because I figured if it was the only way I could effectively be heard, be taken seriously, be able to push for helping others who still have no voice (or the means to have one), then I'd make the choice and pray to the Morrigan that I knew what I was doing.
Just having been a member for a very brief time has shown me that I've underestimated the situation a wee bit. I don't understand the reasons you may have for becoming an ordained minister yourself, and they're not reasons that I am required to know; if you feel like sharing them, by all means please help us understand what your decision was based on.
Because I've been in psych wards where patients have shown more empathy and kindness, than a lot of the people in the ULC, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and even in Paganism. Yes, we have our own family squabbles, but we don't take our problems out on your religions. Do we like the violence and horror that we've received from Christianity, simply because they don't understand why we can't be what we're not? No.
We're not perfect, Restrepo. We still put our pants on, one leg at a time, just like you. But we can't be what we're not, just like you can't be what you're not. And you're not evil. But you're refusing to be what you were born as.
A loving, empathetic soul who learns from every life it's sent to. That's a choice, we all have to make that choice every day, every moment of the day. I know it's hard to keep making that choice every time, knowing that it doesn't change anything. Knowing it only makes things worse.
In Christianity, Jesus was always very calm, patient, kind, generous, sat with the sick and the sinner, always choosing to walk the harder path, the Way of the Peaceful Warrior, even though he knew the Romans, the Pharisees, the Judeans, they hated him for being able to see through their hatred and still forgive them. The only time he ever flew off the handle was the incident with the moneychangers in the temple.
You've heard me refer to Jesus as a "Buddha". Buddha was big on "violence is not the way to enlightenment, do not fight with anger." And he was also quick to point out, "But sometimes, you MUST fight." There's a lot of Buddhist philosophy in Jesus' teachings.
Jesus took the hard road. And I am no Jesus, although I make the same commitment each day. I am not a Christian, Restrepo, but yes even as a Wicce I still follow his teachings. But we can't fight for peace when your anger fights for war.
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Brother John
For reasons I've yet to fully understand, many Christians (particularly the fundamentalist evangelicals) place great emphasis on the O/T which is infused with ("God's commands and laws") for Jews, not Christians. There were no Christians until after the creation of the Jesus myth. Although the NT, in particular the Gospels, upon which the CHRISTian faith is built, are riddled with contradictions and errors, written anonymously years/decades after the events they chronicle with no original manuscripts to verify what was originally written, at least they portray a deity that is compassionate, forgiving and merciful.
Just a head's up for zealots…. leave the OT out of your proselytizing and you'll have more luck in your recruiting.
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Brother John
I want to thank Marty, mary, and all the other deluded "Christian" evangelicals and fundamentalists regularly posting here for encouraging me to explore venues that host more intelligent, moral and rational discussions than what often appears here. Although most of the articles are well written and thought provoking, many of the comments are shamefully ignorant and bigoted. I'll be maintaining my ordination, but would be embarrassed to recommend this forum to anyone seeking enlightenment, truth and intelligent, adult discussions knowing what they'd find amongst the comments.
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Dreamsinger
Sounds good to me, Brother John.
Let the dead bury the dead, the living still need tending to. You're welcome to keep in touch with me, if you wish. I could use a good mentor.
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Brother John
I'm in the Atheist blogs on http://www.patheos.com/Blogs. There are a number of Pagan blogs that might interest you, Dreamsinger. I see many of the most ignorant commenters seem to have vacated, but am sure they're still lurking around somewhere.
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Brother John
I just posted a reply to your post Lyn, but it's not appearing "in moderation", but may surface in a few days. In case it doesn't, thank you for your post. It was well written and informative. I hope to read more from you in the future.
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Lyn
I would love to pick apart some of the views I have read. Others were terribly, wonderfully insightful. I'm going to add my two cents because it is a view I haven't read here. In 1984, before I turned 30, I tried to join all four branches of the military's. I had one request that was inviolable....They teach me Arabic. All four branches said they only offered Spanish. I was appalled. This was the era after a terrorist attack killed many of our soldiers in Lebanon. There was a theme in the air that said this area of the world was going to be our problem for a very long time.
So what I did instead, was find an Arabic speaker, bought language books and studied Arabic on my own. One of the first words I learned was "sharia." Anyone care to guess what it means? No? It means street, or path, or the way. And, BTW, it is pronounced "SHAR-e-a not Sha-REE-a. So, Sharia Law is about following the path toward paradise. It is also used by Christians on different bibles and in common speech. The WAY to God. The path to Heaven.
I remember right after 9-11 news casters and interviewees stumbling their way through pronunciations of Arabic nouns, names, and locales. It was almost embarrassing. So now we want to kill people, deprive the worthy entrance to our country and expunge any effect they have here now. This all sounds too familiar. I was not old enough to witness WWII, but I surely understood it by the time I reached my majority. The Jews were held in this same low esteem. Ironic isn't it that these two factions have deadly earnest hatred for each other? And now we accept Israel as a fact------------somehow I think it's a matter of they have a place to go when we no longer want them-----anti-Semitism is not dead. BUT!!! We have a new enemy. Muslims. Really? The average person in Europe and America know NOTHING about Arab, Muslim culture. Why ot engage the vast majority of Muslims in an equal exchange of information about one another, sound out our fears and embrace the help they give to defeat religious Muslim extremists? Seriously. I don't see masses of Europeans joining ISIS. Yeah, it appeals to young men and some young women, but what bad idea hasn't had its followers? Think Jim Jones to start....Charles Manson....That lunatic who though a comet was going to drive by a pick up all his followers, so they all committed suicide. WTF!!!
We are one world and we need to live together in a peaceful state. The more that is encouraged, the less theses tragically deluded people will flourish. Thank you.
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Dreamsinger
Halle-Bopp? Oh, now THOSE guys knew how to party!
Even Orthodox Judaism considers the territory of Israel to be an abomination; rabbis teach that to the Torah, "Israel" is about one's sense of faith and not place of birth. It's not anti-Semitic to question what's going on, and speak out in support of things like BDS -- it's called "anti-Zionism" and it's a protest against the leadership. Big difference, and crucial.
Hasbara and I had a chat last year on a G+ thread, and they weren't happy that I wouldn't waver on speaking against state-sponsored genocide for profit. It was a rather educational experience, especially after they hacked my very unfinished publishing services website. Our words really are powerful, folks.
Our words can change the very world itself, so choose your words kindly. Consider the value and ability to harm or heal in each one you speak, and know that what you speak is the magic we all weave. Speak wisely, speak kindly, speak firmly, speak loudly... but always speak what you mean and own what you speak.
What is said cannot be unsaid. And if you speak in truth, you will never walk in fear.
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Gregg
No one has a problem with Muslims. Muslims have a problem with everyone else. It's in the Al-Qur'an, read it. It was written at a different time and is now archaic, barbaric, and irrelevant. It was written over 600 years after Christ's New Testament of love for one another. It gives real meaning to the quote from II Corinthians, "the letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life".
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Dreamsinger
So something that's over 600 years older than the "archaic, barbaric, and irrelevant" Qu'ran is perfectly modern, civilized, and relevant, simply because it's from your religion?
Gregg, I appreciate your judgment skills, but have you noticed that the Gospels are the ONLY part of the Bible that isn't entirely about incest, war, rape, exclusion, submission, slavery, xenophobia, gender-shaming, race-baiting, and God ordering infanticide so He can get His rocks off? Jesus is the only main character who was so chillax, he would party with prostitutes, liars, thieves, lepers, tax collectors, adulterers, soldiers, the poor, the sick, and the elderly.
He was even perfectly okay with having dinner with the guy who sold him out. And no other part of the Bible, YOUR Bible, has anything or anyone showing that much kindness and reflection on others' humanity. Nowhere.
In fact, if the Qu'ran is "irrelevant" because it's 600 years older than the Bible, what does that make Israel and the Torah, which is 3700 years older than the Bible, hmmm? Please. Tell me. I really want to know how "barbaric and irrelevant" Judaism is, in comparison to Islam.
Enlighten this Pagan. In fact, let me be perfectly clear on what, exactly, I am, sir: I'm a Solitary Wicce (Wise Folk, of the Old Ways), which is a lot meaner, greyer, and fights a lot dirtier than the Wiccans. And we're older than your Buddha of the Nazareth.
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Brother John
Can you provide more detail, or what you consider excellent sources, about your beliefs, Dreamsinger? IE: Solitary Wicce/Pagan/Wise Folk.
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Dreamsinger
Technically, being male I'm a "Wicca" not a "Wicce", but there's a big difference between Old Ways Wicca and 1950's Gardnerian Wicca so I use Wicce to reduce confusion.
http://www.paganlibrary.com/reference/derivation_of_witch.php
http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=Remembrance&mode=Archived&message=181
About my Goddess, the Morrigan:
http://www.druidry.org/library/gods-goddesses/morrigan
http://www.goddess-guide.com/goddess-morrigan.html
Celtic Traditional Legends of the Morrigan:
http://goddessschool.com/projects/AvalonRaine/TheMorrigan.html
On a side note, until I survived what happened in Mexico, I thought I served Quan Yin, the Chinese Goddess of Charity. About a month after I got back to the States, I started referring to the Morrigan as if I'd always served her instead. That was about the time the forced indoctrination from captivity started breaking.
After conferring with a few Wicce friends, it was determined that I'd earned the right to serve her. It was a little bit of a curve ball, considering the Morrigan's everything Quan Yin isn't. Kwan Yin, the male persona, yeah, but even M. Night Shamalayan didn't see that plot twist coming.
On what a Solitary is:
http://bluemoonwicca.org/solitary.html
On what an Old Soul is:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/27/old-soul-struggles_n_7444210.html
http://themindunleashed.org/2015/05/otherworldly-10-signs-your-child-is-an-old-soul.html
On what an Empath is:
http://themindunleashed.org/2013/10/30-traits-of-empath.html
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Brother John
Thanks Dreamsinger… I love to read and learn.
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Dreamsinger
Just keep in mind that my problem isn't so much with you, or your religion, as the folks who defiled both.
THAT, Gregg, is the most important lesson of all: your religion does not define your humanity, your conscience does!
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Restrepo
Well, unless you're a murdering Muslim. Then your humanity is ABSOLUTELY defined by your religion.
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Brother John
Bravo to both comments, Dreamsinger!! This world is ripe for a meaner, greyer, dirtier fight against self-imposed ignorance, bigotry and religious dogma.
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mega
Well said, brother john ?
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Brother John
Actually Gregg, there are tens of millions of Christian Americans that have a problem with Muslims. Your country have been bombing the crap out of them for the past 14 years. Haven't you been keeping up with the news? There are even people posting here that are anti-Muslim. It sounds like you've taken the time to read the Q'uran (although I'd guess not in Arabic). Did you have a read through the Old Testament as well and notice any archaic barbarity?
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Jack Mabry
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. If you're not willing to adapt the customs of the country you're planning to move to, then don't move to that country. The same would apply if you intended to move to an Islamic country.
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mega
Simple solution - include a disclaimer in the migration documents explaining that there are some compromises needed to be made upon migration. If one is not willing to agree then the migration gets rejected. Im sure if you got faced with a decision between possible death by war zone or shake a female's hand most would choose to compromise. So its in the hands of our "capable" leaders i suppose. Maybe we should be targetting them for their stupidity instead.
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Restrepo
"There’s a friend of mine out in Bandung, Indonesia, named Cahya. She’s also Muslim."
Well obviously she's not the problem! She's in Indonesia, not invading Europe! (the 'I know a Muslim somewhere in the world, so all Muslims must be fine' argument won't work on me.)
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Dreamsinger
Fair enough. But she's still Muslim, and since there's never been any specific demographic of Muslims that are considered "terrorists" or "invading" Europe that means that, to you at least, she's part of the problem. After all, she could very easily hop onto a commercial flight and "invade" Europe for a cappuccino at a Parisian cafe, gaze in awe at the Sistine Chapel's ceilings, or watch Catalan dancers do the tango at a show.
Just as easily as she could've hopped on a commercial flight here, to America, to start a new business and be a valuable member of our society. At least, until she realized that it was more dangerous here than in Syria, and decided to stay the hell away from the crazy Americans.
So in your efforts to fight the bad Muslims (and if only you knew... nah, you're not ready yet), you scared off the Muslims who could help us keep them out.
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Restrepo
"At least, until she realized that it was more dangerous here than in Syria, and decided to stay the hell away from the crazy Americans"
Well there it is folks, Dreamsinger (tunalick) has lost his mind. He thinks Syria is a safer place than USA. You live in a fantasy world.
The majority of Muslims coming to Europe are ECONOMIC migrants -- meaning they have no work, no skills, nothing to contribute to society. They are INVADING to leech off the idiotic liberal leaders who MINDLESSLY give government money out. On top of that, they bring their sick ideology with them. (can't shake hands with a woman, but its okay to rape her if she insults ISLAM).
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Dreamsinger
Well, you DID kinda bomb them into the Stone Age, it's not like they had much to begin with. You go where the jobs are, right?
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Restrepo
No excuse for bringing a stone-age attitude toward women with you to civilized countries. Despicable.
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Dreamsinger
Beat an animal long enough, Restrepo, and it's gonna fight back the first chance it gets.
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Brother John
I'm not sure what "Stone Age" attitudes you mean, Restrepo, but how about these more advanced passages from a Bronze Age "holy book"
"In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children. ... Thy husband ... shall rule over thee." God punishes Eve, and all women after her, with the pains of childbirth and subjection to men. Genesis 3:16
Lamech is the first of a long line of biblical men with more than one wife. It seems that God approves of such marriages. Genesis 4:19, 23
How to sell your daughter -- and what to do if she fails to please her new master. Exodus 21:7-8
There are many more, but let's leave the OT craziness alone and check out the "new convenant" to see if women are more respected.
If a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her her head must be shaved. 1 Corinthians 11:5-6
Female fundamentalists heed the next command. This is the Universal Life CHURCH
Women are commanded by Paul to be silent in church and to be obedient to men. He further says that "if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in church." 1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." 1 Timothy 2:11-12
Wives are to use "chaste conversation, coupled with fear." They are not to braid their hair, wear gold, or put on any "apparel." They are to do these things in imitation of the "holy" women of the Old testament who were "in subjection to their won husbands: even as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him Lord." 1 Peter 3:2-6
Only 144,000 celibate men will be saved. (Those who were not "defiled with women.") Revelation 14:1-4
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Brother John
Thank you Dreamslinger. With 1% of the U.S. population now Muslim, it's no wonder bigoted, racist Americans are in a frenzy to stop the "onslaught". Here's an excellent article entitled "The Truth about Muslims in America" that we should all read. Ignorance is inexcusable with information literally at our fingertips.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/us/muslims-in-america-shattering-misperception/
Although it remains a very controversial (and for most avoided) topic, the truth about 9/11 (the trigger for the GWOT and the rampant Islamaphobia) still remains hidden from view and out of sight/mind for many. How would we feel if it weren't "muslims" that carried the 9/11 attacks? What if it were just another false flag event designed to unleash the widespread profits of global war and the looting of sovereign resources? I'm nearly 70 now and find 9/11 the most shocking event of my lifetime especially when including the apathy, denial and self-imposed ignorance regarding the event itself and it's on-going aftermath.
Although it's been 14 years and counting, it's never too late to uncover truth, particularly when the lack of it is resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
http://www.911truth.org
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Restrepo
Oh no, not another "9/11 truther". You simply can't accept that Islam is a VIOLENT religion which seeks to DESTROY westerners.
Please remember that this article isn't about Muslims in America, it's Muslims in EUROPE that are causing the problems. But, that's not to say the problem won't arrive here next, especially if our friends overseas don't do something to stop it!.
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Dreamsinger
And what is wrong with learning the truth, Restrepo? Isn't the truth supposed to set you free?
Or are you afraid you may be seen as misled by the sweet words of vipers?
Muslims did attack America.
And Dubai should have been leveled for it, not Afghanistan or Iraq. 19 of the 21 that day were Saudi. Why Mossad was taping the hit job from across the Hudson is something you'd have to ask Tel Aviv.
Or, you can simply sit there, whine and pule, and wonder why you can't fix things.
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Brother John
Oh no, not another brainwashed propaganda believer too lazy or afraid to seek the truth. Apparently you neglected to remember this is about Europe with your ignorant blanket statement that "Islam is a VIOLENT religion which seeks to DESTROY westerners" (not just Europe).
It's stunning that so much apathy and denial exists regarding 9/11 when information is so readily available, including the testimony of eyewitnesses and thousands of professional engineers, architects, military and police officials and more.
You obviously been able to avoid this, but in case you simply didn't know it exists here are a couple of excellent, well researched and credible sources. Do yourself and all of us a favour and spend a couple of hours reading through it instead of spouting misinformation and nonsense.
http://www.911truth.org/#
http://www.collective-evolution.com/2013/01/18/24-hard-facts-about-911-that-cannot-be-debunked/
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Dreamsinger
I'm not stunned at all, Brother John. You're not going to get through the indoctrination until the Stockholm Syndrome is deprogrammed.
That's what you're seeing, in how Restrepo's behaving. He's not mentally ill but he's not the only one suffering from it.
It's affecting too many Americans, 9/11 was just the final breaking technique: a sudden, unspeakably horrific violent event. There's several good lists on the steps used to break captives and handle them afterwards.
You're not going to win with a direct attack of what actually happened. And the handling's been going for almost 15 years.
I don't know what to suggest. I had to rely on Vietnam-era POW deprogramming techniques to do it myself, after Mexico. This is way out of my capabilities.
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Brother John
As a VietNam veteran, I have lived with the lingering effects of PTSD for many decades (without the "help" of psychiatric voo doo). This is often categorized as "depression". From a personal standpoint, my depression is rooted in not believing the all pervasive "we're the good guys/freedom/democracy" propaganda and choking down the bitter pills of reality as much, or more than, the horror I experienced. It's hard to shake it entirely when so many people remain apathetic, racist, bigoted and bathed in self-imposed ignorance.
As with most veterans, I'm sickened by the flag waving and war mongering of arm chair warriors sitting in their warm, safe and comfy homes encouraging others to "protect their freedoms" and send their young off to die or be wounded physically and mentally. Suicide is right up there with death on the battlefield because there is no honour, glory or victory in today's wars.
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Dreamsinger
I don't envy you, Brother John. And what I went through in Tepic was a cakewalk compared to you guys. Mad respect, sir.
Civvie, with two WW2 Army grandparents.
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Brother John
There's a wonderful life changing upside though, Dreamsinger.
1967/68 - Tour in VietNam to witness the brutality, racism and ugliness of my country in action
1969 - Flags and "Love It or Leave It' bumper stickers everywhere I looked. Went to Woodstock and the contrast was an epiphany.
1970 - Took the advice of the bumper stickers and immigrated to Canada with a friend who was avoiding the draft and have been here ever since. I remain eternally thankful that I was allowed to immigrate to a safer, saner country and this greatly colours my feelings about immigrants and the "refugee crisis".
Just a note about the parallels between then and now. The justification for the VietNam War was the "Gulf of Tonkin incident". Another false flag concocted by those who profit from on-going wars. More than twice the number of bombs dropped on Europe and Asia in all of WW2 were rained down on the small, relatively defenceless countries of VietNam, Laos and Cambodia, none of which posed any threat to the U.S. In addition to conventional bombs, 12 millions gallons of Agent Orange was sprayed on villages and their occupants. This by the same country that screams about the use of chemical weapons by "despotic dictators" as justification for more invasions, bombing, death and destruction. This was terrorism on a massive scale.
Nearly 60,000 young Americans died, including two friends of mine. Hundreds of thousands were wounded both physically and mentally. Hundreds of thousands (estimates vary) of innocent civilians were killed and displaced. After all of this horror to "stop the spread of communism" the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam has Hanoi as it's capital and the U.S. eventually withdrew, in what I consider to be, disgrace and defeat.
To see this same scenario continue, decade after decade, including the mindless support from non-participants that allows it, disgusts me beyond description. For those who say that was "water under the bridge" or aren't familiar with this ugly truth about illegal wars of aggression, I've included a few links in the hope that there's a chance for history to not repeat itself over and over again. Sorry for the mini-rant, but innocent human beings are being killed and abused as I write this.
The "enemies" are always given disparaging labels to dehumanize them and insulate our troops from the fact they're killing other human beings…. In WW2 there were Krauts and Japs, in VietNam it was g**ks and s*opes, and some even more offensive terms are being used in the current wars.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=181506Excellent synopsis of the VietNam War. Should be required reading for all warmongers https://libcom.org/history/1957-1975-the-vietnam-war
Agent Orange may not be in the current arsenal http://www.agentorangerecord.com/home/
But Depleted Uranium Munitions are…. Once again how disgustingly hypocritical to denounce any country of using chemical weapons http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9322.htm
Question: Which is the only country to have used nuclear weapons (of mass destruction) against a civilian population?
Is there a point to my diatribe? Yep. Wake up and face ugly truths about reality. Don't waste time or energy on ridiculous issues like transgender bathrooms, "elections", whose god is real and Muslims taking over the world. Eliminate bigotry and self-imposed ignorance from our lives. Accurate, unbiased information is easily available through the internet (accurate and unbiased because advertisers aren't filtering the information). Purge and protect your minds from the incessant propaganda that's being churned out 24/7. You could start with the truth about 9/11, climate change and the potential extinction level event of the on-going global catastrophe of Fukushima. Spend an hour researching geo-engineering. Do something to help stop the spread of lies, hatred, racism and war by publicly denouncing them. How? If you're a member of a church, speak directly to your congregation. Write letters to the editor. Use your ordination to access "religious/spiritual" columns in newspapers and forums like this one. Discourage everyone you know, particularly family and friends, from participating in or encouraging mindless, on-going wars that generate obscene profits for the shareholders of defence contractors, oil/resource companies, and others.
Once again, sorry for the outburst, but I am sick of the apathy, ignorance and complicity that's allowing evil and darkness to blanket the earth and it's inhabitants. It's especially disturbing when it appears in a forum that's supposed to be spiritual.
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Dreamsinger
Mexico was a positive life-changing experience, though. Like I said, I'm still trying to mentally process everything, after 2-1/2 years.
Something about being completely "lights-out" gone, just a hair from death, and then coming back... in some ways it's liberating and in so many other ways it completely changes your whole sense of priorities.
Frustratingly so, Brother John. And I apologize if my own inner darkness occasionally peeks out of the cupboard and goes "Pbbbbt!" at Restrepo.
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Dreamsinger
No worries, Brother John, all good on my end. If you bottle it up, it'll eat you like acid.
Officially, the United States is the only country that's even attacked another country with nuclear weapons.
Unofficially, there is another. Yemen was hit with two neutron bombs last summer, by Israeli planes marked as Saudi.
And there's some strange evidence suggesting that suitcase-sized nuclear devices (1 kT yield or so) were used to controlled-demo the Towers.
Asbestos is very slightly radioactive by nature, but doesn't cause the rapid types of cancers and illnesses a nuclear fallout can.
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Brother John
Hmmm. I read that two of the buildings came down because of airplane strikes and the third one because of a minor office fire. I was some stroke of luck for Larry Silverstein and his associates that those asbestos laden, under occupied, loser investments collapsed like they did, wasn't it (too bad about all the deaths though)? Smart business move to increase the insurance and include terrorist attacks on the policies. I guess shrewd investments like that are why he's filthy rich.
http://realitieswatch.com/larry-silverstein-bought-wtc-months-911-got-4-55-billion-insurance-buildings/
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Dreamsinger
The planes hit too high to completely collapse the WTC towers. And while the jet fuel also wasn't enough to completely melt the steel beams, according to welders it would be enough to soften them up a bit for the kiloton-yield suitcase demolition nukes.
Asbestos is normally radioactive, but very, very slight and doesn't cause the types of cancers that exploded in the area. Neither does dust by itself. There were also reports of Cherenkov radiation at the site, starting sundown on September 11th. As for the excessive-lasting high-temperature signature of the slag and concrete, nanothermite doesn't burn several weeks like that.
I don't know who would put nuclear shaped demolition charges in our buildings (there's a lot of countries who have motive), but it wasn't the Muslims. That's a big no-no to the Qu'ran.
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Dreamsinger
Judging from how Saddam ran things for us in Iraq, from shortly after Iran overthrew our Shah in Tehran until we framed him for what the Saudis did in 2001, you tell me.
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Restrepo
“There’s a friend of mine out in Bandung, Indonesia, named Cahya. She’s also Muslim.”
Well obviously she’s not the problem! She’s in Indonesia, not invading Europe! (the ‘I know a Muslim somewhere in the world, so all Muslims must be fine’ argument won’t work on me.)
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Thomas Adams
Mostly constitutional monarchies actually, just like Great Britain. Except for Iran. They're more like the USA. The international community likes to pretend their not, because: How could the majority vote for a brand of Islam that's anti-West? But they do, because MUSLIMS DON'T LIKE US. For good cause of course, but for all those talking about guests in your home...if someone has a gun pointed at your head and you respond by saying "isn't that nice, would you like to come in for tea?" How much respect for your property can you reasonably expect?
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Dreamsinger
Saudi Arabia is one of our allies.
They are Muslim. Wahabbi, to be exact.
So why do we give bin Laden's family a pass?
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Restrepo
Oil, probably. Goes to show that Muslims can't be trusted, even if they are "allies".
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Brother John
What a bizarre twisted conclusion, Restrepo. Your logic is both fascinating and disturbing.
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Rebecca Hood
The issue as I see it is this. If you choose to move to another country, for whatever reason, you need to respect their laws, customs and traditions and if you can't, you don't need to move there. Other countries are not supposed to change to suit you. I can guarantee you that if you or I moved to a Muslim country, they would not change anything for us.
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Dreamsinger
The difference is that Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Lebanon, Jordan, and Turkey are theocratic nations; the United States of America is a secular representative democratic republic.
I'd also like to point out that we have not yet assimilated into the customs and cultures of the First Nations that were here long before Columbus ever showed up. And we've been very horrid guests.
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Brother John
You're missing an important point, Becky. The bulk of the refugees didn't "choose to move to another country". They're refugees fleeing the chaos, death and destruction that's being rained down on their countries, cities, families and friends by or through Western nations. I understand that living a life of entitlement and privilege makes it difficult to imagine what would cause people to flee to a country with an unwelcoming, bigoted population with different customs and traditions. Here's a thought…. do a Google image search for "war in syria" (or Iraq, Libya, Yemen or others). Don't just read about it…. they say a picture's worth a thousand words. While you're scrolling through the death and destruction ask yourself, "why don't they just stay where there?" or "why don't they go back home".
The ironic part is that some of the countries who are freaking about the influx of refugees are the very same countries that are creating them with their "Global War on Terror". Try a little empathy and compassion. You know…. that walk a mile in their shoes exercise. What would you do if your country looked like those in the pictures with foreign troops in your streets and chaos all around you? Not only would you flee, but you would also be angry, desperate, frightened and more.
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Dreamsinger
Food for thought here, folks.
Islam gave us our current numerical symbols, they gave us algebra, they gave us medicine and some of the star charts we still use today. They also gave us hookahs and belly dancers.
And we're showing our gratitude by committing genocide. While I realize a lot of people hated taking algebra in high school, that's a bit much, isn't it?
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Restrepo
Here's some food for thought tuna. The Muslims are INVADING Europe, our partners in the western CIVILIZED world. WHat do you plan to do when they come to America next? Islam is a disease without a cure (cancer). Genocide? like how muslims kill westerners with terrorism? it goes BOTH ways!!!!
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Dreamsinger
"The Muslims are INVADING Europe"...
...you mean like your family "INVADING" the United States, when they came here? You mean like the Irish and Italians "INVADING" the United States, when they came here (and I eventually was born)? You mean like Steve Jobs' family "INVADING" the United States from Syria?
A "civilized" world is only a very thin veneer of manners, customs, and platitudes that consistently fails to hide the brutal reality of human nature. Rome was a "civilized" world for 500 years. England is still a "civilized" empire, 400 years after officially founding an empire that had no problem "INVADING", terrorizing, and slaughtering untold millions around the world under the authority of God and King.
The Western "civilized" world started the Crusades in 1095, as a means to keep the knights too busy fighting to start focusing on taking down the kings that used them as nothing more than militarized royal guards. Until that point, for at least 400 years Islam left the Western "civilized" world alone.
You talk about "it goes both ways", but only on your terms. And you don't even know what your own terms are.
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Restrepo
What does the past have to do with anything? We live NOW. Europe is being overrun like in that walking dead show except with MUSLIMS. easy to say no big deal when you're not living at ground ZERO.
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Dreamsinger
"easy to say no big deal when you’re not living at ground ZERO."
I actually am living at ground zero. Fox News does a really good job of making us look like the good guys, so that we don't have to think about why we're not.
"What does the past have to do with anything? We live NOW."
That's an excellent question. Bad habits are hard to get rid of, especially when you don't learn from history. Back in the 1930s, Hitler created an "Other" by proclaiming the European Ashkenazi Jews as "human filth, a blight upon the German race that must be wiped out because they will never assimilate with the Aryan ideals."
Heh. Funny part is, Hitler wasn't even German. He was born in Austria.
Anyway, a lot of the rich businessmen in America -- Henry Ford, Dale Carnegie, Prescott Bush (father of President George H.W. Bush, and grandfather of President George W. Bush), and a few others -- laundered their company profits and supplied weapons to the Nazi Empire while Hitler had people rounded up and sent to concentration camps.
Anyone who wasn't blond-haired and blue-eyed, considered "pure Aryan", or disagreed with what the Furher and Goebbels were saying, they were sent to horrific deaths. And our government knew darn well what they were doing and who they were doing it for. We didn't care, Restrepo, because we got paid good money for turning a blind eye as we handed the monsters in western "civilized" Europe all the guns they needed to prevent Israel from happening.
That's why the past matters.
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Brother John
I'm going to thoroughly enjoy having another educated voice of reason on this forum, tunalick. I just wanted to add a little to your comments about Hitler, everyone's favourite epitome of evil. Not only was Hitler Austrian, he was also Christian (Catholic) and much of the ethnic cleansing that occurred was biblically justified. The structure of the SS and other groups was based on the Jesuit Order (Heinrich Himmler was himself a Jesuit priest).
Although it's much more palatable to blame the "Nazis" for the Holocaust and other atrocities, the unpleasant reality is it was carried out by Christian Germans from one of the world's most Christian countries at the time. It was also done with the collusion of the churches who were either complicit or silent while the slaughter was underway and who assisted many of their Christian brethren war criminals to escape prosecution at the end of the war.
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Dreamsinger
An honor and privilege, Brother John. Thank you. -- Dreamsinger (was Tunalick)
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Dreamsinger
And as for what I plan to do when the Muslims come to America next...
...do what I always do, hit the convenience store for some beer and snacks. They're already here, bro, you must not get out much.
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Restrepo
"I actually am living at ground zero. Fox News does a really good job of making us look like the good guys, so that we don’t have to think about why we’re not."
what you say makes Zero sense!! You live in Europe? If you did, you definitely wouldn't be so delusional. You would recognize the DANGER of Islam. What is wrong with this world when Austrian fascists make more sense than my fellow Americans...
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Dreamsinger
Considering I'm from Miami (Florida) you tell me.
Here's the thing, Restrepo. There's a friend of mine out in Bandung, Indonesia, named Cahya. We've known each other since early 2009. She's a retired professional singer, has two amazing kids (one competes in international anime karaoke competitions, the other's finishing up high school), and runs a real estate business. She's also Muslim, knows the religion I follow, and believes that as long as I continue helping others and being a halfway decent person, then all's good.
Know what we talk about most?
We swap family food recipes.
My god, such horrific acts of jihad. ;)
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Minister Noah
"Muslims are invading Europe" or is it more like "refugees who's houses have been destroyed are seeking solace from their warzone of a country"? And is it really as bad as when the USA and the UK entered an illegal war in Iraq to get oil, causing the mass genocide of millions of people, creating a domino effect that has increased Islamic extremism resulting in the problem we have now? No, it isn't. Why do you say Islam is a disease without a cure?
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Restrepo
"mass genocide of millions of people"
Might want to check your math there, Noah. Iraq debacle aside, that is a gross exaggeration.
Islam is a disease without a cure because there is no room for compromise in the beliefs. Either you're with them or against them. People are killed for even showing sympathy with Western values. There may be some extremist Christian groups out there, but nothing that can rival the scope and depth of Islamic hate as a whole.
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Minister Noah
That is a disgustingly harsh and untrue generalisation of Muslims. Just because there is a disproportionate number of extreme Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East doesn't mean that every single person of the Islamic faith is a sexist, racist terrorist who hates Western values and will stop at nothing to destroy them, something you seemingly fail to grasp
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Dreamsinger
Islam never wiped out 1/3 of Europe by mistaking cats for demons. It takes a lot to hate cats. They're cute, they're cuddly, and they completely independent. And the Black Death was a horrible karma for a bunch of Christian extremists who clearly didn't like pets.
Islam never tortured and executed over 400,000 known victims under the charge of witchcraft or being a Witch, in Salem back in the early 1690's. There's likely a lot more that weren't documented, because the usual charges of "uppity women", eccentric people, mental illness, epilepsy, or being a non-conformist was a bit of a stretch in some cases.
Out of those 400,000 that were killed, 2/3's were Christians who weren't witches. The remaining 1/3 were mostly just Pagans, very few were Strega, Roma, or Wicce. It takes a lot of hate to blindly hunt down people who don't agree with your way of life, even if they're just minding their own business and have done no harm to you.
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Brother John
I did do some math checking as you suggested, Restrepo and found this list of killing done by, or at the command of, the Christian God. Although some believe that this God and Allah are one in the same, and others deny that either of them exist, those who believe this to be the one and only God would look pretty foolish claiming he/she/it is loving, kind and merciful.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.ca/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
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Brother John
What tunalick????? Some of the commenters here insist that "Islams" and "Mooslums" are barbarian Satan worshippers who behead Christians and eat babies. But one said the there was a "Golden Age of Islam" at the same time that ignorant, superstitious Christians were burning witches and heretics while the Sun revolved around the Earth. I'm confused. Who should I believe?
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Dreamsinger
Trusting my intuition in those kinds of situations always seems to work pretty well for me. When I don't listen to my gut feelings, things go badly.
But that's just me, and I'm not always the best for advice. You already know the answer, it's just waiting for you to calm the storm inside and listen.
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Dreamsinger
By the way, this is Tunalick. I changed my handle when someone took the time to politely ask me to.
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kat2wolf
I believe there are certain cultures that cannot co-exist. If you do move to another country though, you must expect to live according to their laws and not your own.
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Dreamsinger
If Catholics and Protestants can share a pizza in New York, and cats and dogs can take naps together in the afternoon sun, then co-existence is possible for anyone.
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Restrepo
Great news! Let's have coffee with ISIS this weekend?
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Dreamsinger
Works for me. I easily pass as a Christian.
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Dreamsinger
Seriously, I have no problem with your dare. For one thing, bodies can be killed but souls can't. And while I've never felt it necessary to carry a gun, knife, or weapon anywhere I go, I've always been armed to the teeth since I was conceived.
You've got the same weapon I do. You're just afraid of what it can do. But that's alright, the more you use your brain to learn stuff, the more effective it becomes in winning fights you never have to start.
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Restrepo
What are you saying... You'd like to get yourself killed? Have you SEEN what ISIS does to Christians and Westerners? I will not post here, but videos of executions and beheadings are all over the internet..
You have many ideas, Dreamsinger. But like most liberals, that's all they are. Nice ideas. Muslims pose a real threat to the civilized world. Sooner or later you will realize how wrong you were.
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Dreamsinger
Restrepo, I survived 193 days of captivity in a third-world country that's basically run by people capable of making the Devil wet his pants. The folks who tortured me, starved me, and broke my mind and body almost ended up killing me; they weren't from that country.
I didn't know how to converse sufficiently in Spanish (and still don't). I'm still trying to make sense of the NDE I had. And I still managed to humiliate the Federales during my 8 days of being in their custody, after they sided with my captors in a slight underestimation of what a badly-injured person is capable of remembering.
So given all of what I just told you... I think you just aren't a coffee type of person.
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Dreamsinger
In other words, I've had worse coffee dates.
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Brother John
I have seen what they do to the invading foreigners who have rained down death and destruction upon them year after year, Restrepo. Have you seen what the Western invaders have done? Here's a sample. I wonder why the people of Iraq, Syria, Yemen, etc. etc. are so angry.
I'll post so everyone can see the reality of the GWOT. Scroll down the page and have a good look…. BTW, where do you live?
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqwarpix.html#IRAQWARPIX
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Dreamsinger
Restrepo,
I'd like to add to Brother John's response that it was President George W. Bush who ordered the inbound military coffins not to be photographed and/or displayed on American broadcast or publishing media. The reason was because the photos we saw were causing the country to start asking questions, and to question the reason we were sending our young men and women over there in the first place.
If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to hide. We sent our best and brightest to their deaths, telling them that the lies were honorable. Telling them that the lies made their efforts honorable. That the cause was honorable.
And we honored our fallen soldiers by hiding the brutal reality that was exposing those lies. Lies, I might add, told by a relapsed cocaine-and-alcohol addict who was in the midst of a delusion of grandeur, believing he would bring the End Times if he exterminated the Islamic religion.
President Bush was an addict, Restrepo, and he had relapsed by the time he first set foot in the White House in 2001. Ask a prison drug recovery counselor to watch five minutes' of his behaviors and mannerisms from video recordings, and ask that counselor what the assessment would be.
My folks weren't always the kindest, and being adopted it was harder to handle growing up when one parent was a violent painkiller addict. But one thing they taught me (in more than one way) was you cannot trust an addict in a leadership role. Things go bad really quickly when you do.
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Restrepo
"President Bush was an addict, Restrepo, and he had relapsed by the time he first set foot in the White House in 2001."
Dreamsinger, are you so out of touch as to think Bush was one the calling the shots? That is was his little sick fantasy to invade the M.E.? It was clearly Cheney and co. running the show.
But either way, it's irrelevant. This post is about Muslim immigrants invading Europe, and bringing with them screwed up ideas of right/wrong (treatment of women, Sharia law, terrorist sympathizing, etc.) AND being allowed to act however they please because anyone who says otherwise is labeled Islamophobic. PC culture will not prevail. Eventually politicians will have to call a spade a spade.
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Dreamsinger
How certain are you that you are completely right, and do not feel it necessary to question what you believe or the folks who told you what to believe, Restrepo?
The politicans don't need to call the spade a spade, they've been burying you alive while you thank them for their kindness.
But I do understand why you praise the men who harm you.
This may come as a bit of a shock, but that day in Tepic when I finally went lights-out from the physical and medical trauma of being tortured over the course of 6-plus-months taught me that there are many lives, and many masters.
Souls go through many lessons in those lives, and they go through them to learn whatever is needed to be taught. Maybe it's God, maybe it's Allah, maybe it's Mr. Bean, I dunno, but Management requires that we learn the lesson or we keep going back through the same life's experiences until we figure it out. After that, we move on to the next lesson.
I have no idea what the cirriculum is or may be, I'm in school just like you, Restrepo. And I don't know what the next lesson is, or the past one, I'll figure it out when I get there.
You, Brother John, me, we all met because Management needed a group lesson project. Like it or not, we're learning from each other.
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Steve
So let me get this clear... Islam won't let them to touch a woman but it is perfectly OK to rape them when ever and who ever they feel like????? Because that's what going on on a daily basis, not singled out incidents it I a trend with them... So I'm asking you who support this behavior and all of this, wonder what would you say if it was you wife or daughter was raped???? Would you be still so supportive???? Hi ahead and try and after get back to me with you answer!!!
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Dreamsinger
"If citizens are just a little more fearful, a little less likely to freely associate, a little less likely to dissent – the aggregate chilling effect can close what was once an open society."
Source: ACLU -- https://www.aclu.org/blog/you-may-have-nothing-hide-you-still-have-something-fear
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Brother John
Thanks for that, Dreamsinger…. it's a keeper… Here's one back at you
"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
Hermann Goering (1893-1946) Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and, as Hitler's designated successor, the second man in the Third Reich. [Göring] Date: April 18, 1946 Source: Nuremberg Diary (Farrar, Straus & Co 1947), by Gustave Gilbert (an Allied appointed psychologist), who visited daily with Goering and his cronies in their cells, afterwards making notes and ultimately writing the book about these conversations.
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Dreamsinger
Goering and Goebbels developed it, McCarthy and LBJ fine-tuned it, Rove and Rumsfield perfected it. The names change, but the song always remains the same, Brother John.
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Dreamsinger
I had a very interesting conversation this morning on G+ with a Muslim, Brother John. He explained the Qu'ran directly from the original Arabic, and I was blown away by how unbelievably wrong "civilized" western countries are about what Islam says and believes.
For example, do you remember how Israeli PM Netanyahu and former President George W Bush were always screaming about how Iran, al Qaeda, and the Taliban were about to attack both countries with nuclear weapons? It turns out that attacking anyone with atomic-based bombs (which include nuclear and thermonuclear) are forbidden by the Qu'ran under "taghut" law.
And if a Muslim goes against the Qu'ran by doing what is forbidden, then they get sent to Hell and punished by Allah.
That's why, after 25 years of constantly being threatened with imminent nuclear destruction if we don't wipe out Islam, IT'S NEVER HAPPENED. They can't do it, Restrepo. They're forbidden. So you have to ask yourself why ISIS hasn't nuked anyone, if they're not following the Qu'ran. Why hasn't any Muslim, in any "civilized" western country, suicide-bombed with a nuke yet?
Why the only people who have the nukes and the desire and the intent to violate taghut AREN'T Muslim? America's been wanting to "turn Tehran into a glass parking lot." Israel's been wanting to "turn Tehran into glass". Europe wants to make the entire region glow at night.
Don't you think that with all the nukes lying around, Restrepo, the Muslims would've at least tried once in the past 15 years?
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William Waugh
I wonder if other threads elsewhere have zero'ed in on what I see as plain in the comments. The handshake routine in school is clearly a devotional to the existing power structure. ..........but, as a guest, it should not be an issue. Refusal, on religious grounds, appears to be youthful budding jihadism.
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Dreamsinger
So is Howie Mandel a jihadist? He refuses to shake the hands of women and men... though it's because of health concerns, but he wouldn't shake the teacher's hand either.
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William Waugh
Within the context of this conversation, the guest is a young muslim with religious intent. All I'm saying is that a child that requires psychological medication; for example AD/HD, should have the pill swallowed before ever reaching a full waking state.
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Dreamsinger
Considering the American Psychological Association has branded Christianity as a "mental illness", the irony is not lost on me.
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Brother John
Drugging children means they will never reach a "full waking state", William. Here's some data regarding how widespread this insanity has spread. Notice the numbers of age 0-5 years old as well as the totals.
https://www.cchrint.org/psychiatric-drugs/children-on-psychiatric-drugs/
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Dreamsinger
The Soviet Union used to silence political dissidents, highly-intelligent people, and freethinking citizens who were going to be more trouble dead than alive, by diagnosing them as mentally ill (schizophrenia was a very popular choice for the KGB) and force-drugged them with medications.
If the prisoners happened to survive, they were no longer considered a viable threat by the Communists because... well, who'd believe a schizo? I realize that you may think it's a joke, William, but it's not. Especially since we use the same tactics in the disinformation protocols in America, and the stuff that's used to shut people up is a lot more effective in creating the symptoms indicative of mental illness.
I realize I may sound a little off-kilter, and I might just be a bit wibbly-wobbly, but it's from decades of enduring what you just suggested that Muslim kid should face, William. The detox process wasn't fun. The recovery process less so.
Thank god karma's not my job. That's all I'll say about your idea.
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Dreamsinger
Brother John, I know an Aspie who manages the Scientology church up in Queens. Their position against psych meds is the only thing I've been able to agree with him about since he joined them in 2002.
Their text, "Dianetics", was excruciating to read. I can see why Hubbard never made it as a sci-fi writer.
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Brother John
I have a very dear friend who lost years of fully functioning life thanks to psychiatrists and their prescriptions. His sincere advice to me was no matter how severe symptoms may be, never, ever allow anyone you love seek help from a psychiatrist. I agree that this is likely the only good advice and counsel one might receive from Scientology.
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Duessler of Faith
War is upon us.
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Dreamsinger
War was demanded. Be careful what you wish for...
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Calvin Pacheco
If any of you would read the Quran you would find that there is no such thing as a peaceful Muslim and assimilation is not allowed in the religion. They cannot become part of another societies culture ir be oeaceful because there religion forbids it. Stop depending on facebook and web posts. Read the Quran find the truth for yourself
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Dreamsinger
I seem to recall a lot of "kill the non-believers" in the Bible as well. Mostly Old Testament, where you also readily quote why gays are evil.
The difference is that in the Qu'ran the hadiths relate to the situation, whereas in the Bible the verses relate to completely different Books.
I'm familiar with the hadith you're referring to. That's why I'm politely saying that you can't cherrypick a religious text to suit your ignorance.
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Brother John
It's nearly impossible to portray Christianity as a moral system, or it's God as kind, loving and merciful without doing some heavy duty cherry picking in the ancient orchard of the OT. It's a common occurrence and anything from disturbing to amusing for "non-believers".
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Dreamsinger
It's only amusing for us until they show up unannounced at our doors, with pitchforks in their hands and blood in their eyes.
And it disturbs us more when we see this happen, again and again, millennia after millenia, fully knowing that indoctrination takes advantage of the brain's greatest weakness -- it's the only organ in the human body that cannot tell when it's injured or compromised.
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Brother John
Here in Canada, neither Jehovah's Witness' or Mormon's are allowed to carry pitchforks door to door
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Dreamsinger
Here in America, Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons wouldn't know what a pitchfork was, let alone how farmers use it.
I blame the Industrial Revolution, it took all the fun out of everything. heheh...
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Mike
Although the Christianity and Islam share some interesting and unfortunate parallels, there is one fundamental point that makes all the difference and goes a long way in explaining why these two religions, although based upon the same myths or stories, are vastly different.
I read a book some time ago, "Islamic Imperialism: A History" by Efraim Karsh in which the author says that "Christianity won over an existing empire in an extremely slow and painful process and its universalism was originally conceived in purely spiritual terms that made a clear distinction between God and Caesar." He goes on to say, "The birth of Islam, by contrast, was inextricably linked with the creation of a world empire and its universalism was inherently imperialist. It did not distinguish between temporal and religious powers..."
Sorry for the long quote, but it seems to me to sum up the problem in a nutshell.
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videoscenes
It is simple to throw around the term "coexist". Muslims cannot and will not coexist. They are commanded to kill the infidel. WE are the infidels. It is a battle that has existed for centuries! Our societies passive, and politically correct movement has, in part, thrown fuel on the fire. It is not about tolerance....it IS about survival now. In short, if you don't like the country you migrated to....then go back to your own!
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Dreamsinger
There are 1.4 billion Muslims. There are 330 million Americans.
If it were about survival, survival would have been a moot point for us a long time ago.
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Restrepo
Tell that to 9/11 victims and their families. Or those of the Paris attacks. Or Belgium bombings. Just to name a few. It IS about survival.
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Brother John
Mission accomplished with you and many others, Restrepo. But there are still too many who realize that much of the "news" is propaganda so more false flag attacks will be necessary. Thank you for your cooperation and obedience, Citizen Restrepo. Carry on with the spread of misinformation and delusion and know that your cooperation is appreciated. Destroy the links below to ensure the truth remains hidden from your fellow citizens.
https://wikispooks.com/wiki/False_flag
http://www.globalresearch.ca/53-admitted-false-flag-attacks/5432931
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mega
An imam once said that islam is a religion of evolution and evolves with changes in the world. So its time for change guys. New country, new rules...within reason of course. Besides...throughout my travels ive found the religions rules have varied from country to country anyway. So...shake that poor teachers hand. Just avoid those impure thought while you do it ?
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mega
Complicated indeed. its double hard for me some days....i had to convert to get married, but to be honest i cant commit to any one religion, hence why i joined ULC.(sorry to muslims reading this...i am aware its considered wrong to convert just for marriage). Having said that though i remember talking to my imam and in his exact words, he told me that "islam is the religion of evolution and evolves with the times". So why cant we make a few adjustments? Infact nothing has changed since the beggining. Ive also been told that if there is no food and you're starving it is acceptable to eat pork to survive. If this is true then why cant we just accept our new living arrangements, evolve and get along like we should be getting along?
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Dreamsinger
Allah is love. And as long as you love your wife, as you swore in the covenant (between you, your wife, and Allah), then it's not to be ashamed of or considered wrong. "God" goes by many names: Allah, God, Yahweh, Jehovah, the Morrigan, Hecate, Zeus, Odin, Baldur, Kwan Yin, Ra... the names don't matter, only the ideals.
May Fortune favor your Paths in the days ahead.
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Brother John
Welcome tunalick! I've haven't seen your posts until recently. I've been on and off this forum for a couple of years and can guarantee that you will soon ignite comments from a few of the "Christians" who will object to statements like this one about the many "Gods". A few of them (and one in particular) are beyond delusional, but you may find sparring with them enjoyable for awhile.
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Dreamsinger
Thanks, Brother John. I just joined the team a few weeks ago, and today was the first time I'd realized where my ULC email was going.
And trust me, I've done a lot worse than ruffle a few feathers. Doesn't bother me one bit.
Illegitimi non carborandum... "Don't let the buggers get you down."
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Mike
"Certainly a portion of the anti-immigration crowd are simply ignorant, or their judgment is clouded by racist views." And just what portion would that be? On the other hand, they could be well aware of the issues and are not shy in speaking out (i.e., "politically incorrect"). Personally, I don't have enough faith in the goodwill of mankind to believe that Islam and the West can coexist peacefully once the size of the populations within any national boundaries have reached an undefined critical mass. The best predictor of the future is the past. Times change but people don't.
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mega
Scary but true. And sad how a possible negative outcome would be in the name of an entity that might not even exist ?
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Restrepo
Finally a voice of reason. SO what happens when they (muslims) refuse to leave? Europe is for Europeans, what to do with all the illegal immigrants who bring their sick religion there? Cant let them stay!
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Brother John
While there's still time, Restrepo, you'd better start campaigning to have the plaque removed from the Statue of Liberty to save America from Europe's fate. She's openly claiming to be the "Mother of Exiles" and giving a "world-wide welcome" to the "wretched refuse" and the "homeless tempest-tossed" of the world. I wonder how many of the Americans posting are there because of relatively recent immigrant ancestors? Are you American? If so, how many generations ago did your family immigrate from another country? How about you other immigration deniers? Virtually all of us have immigrant ancestors in our past. What would our lives be like had they been denied?
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame, With conquering limbs astride from land to land; Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame. "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
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Dreamsinger
My birth parents are of Irish and Italian descent, no idea how many generations both families were in America before I was born. And my hometown is also the hometown of the Cuban Exile Community, thanks to Castro overthrowing our puppet in Havana, a real hardcase named Bautista.
My adoptive mom's side is from two farming brothers who fled Europe to avoid being drafted into the Franco-Prussian War. They're Nordic/Swedish descent. Not sure where my adoptive dad's side came from, "Moore" is pretty a common surname but they were definitely European. Likely Britannic region.
My fiancee's Irish-German. One of my neighbors is a Bulgarian who competed in the 1996 and 2000 Olympics. Another's a feisty little Sicilian old lady who makes excellent coffee. We also have two Latin couples at the far end of the condo complex.
My best friend's family fled Hungary when Hitler came for a social call, traveled through Sydney and ended up in Brooklyn before coming to Florida. His widow's born in Canada but her folks were from Catalonia, Spain.
My art mentor from high school's African-American, but he accidentally served in Iraq and got stopgapped twice. He's doing better, but needless to say he's not pleased with the curveball of 9/11 after signing up in 1997 to get his life straightened out.
We're all immigrants here, Restrepo, unless we're of First Nation descent. Then again, we all came from Africa so I guess we don't even have that to go by. And I'm proud to be a "Heinz 57" human, as my Hungarian Taoist Jew buddy once described himself.
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Brother John
I agree, Mike. Religion (you compared a religion to a geographic area… should have been Islam vs Christianity) is the source, justification and motivator of most of the world's conflict. It's even more ridiculous when the three major religions all have the same God, with different twists in their respective mythologies.
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Dreamsinger
Ya know, Brother John you brought up a good point.
All three Abrahamic religions waging war with each other to prove their version of God is superior, it's kinda like three kids trying to kill each other to prove which one's Mommy's favorite.
Until someone can prove that there's only one way to eat a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, you cannot prove to me that there's only one way to worship.
We're made by a god. Let's start acting like it.
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Mike
Actually, I was comparing a religion (Islam) to a culture (the West) comprised of various beliefs, religions, (or lack thereof), and political ideologies. Granted that Islam is not a monolithic religion, but is every bit as complex and fractured as Christianity. However, Islam in any of its forms (as far as I know) may not be capable of integrating itself into a culture which is founded on tolerance and modernity.
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Dreamsinger
Mike and Brother John:
As of 2015, the current total number of followers is as listed by the interfaith organization Religious Tolerance:
Christianity: 2,039 million people, or 32% of the world's population and dropping. Islam: 1,570 million people, or 22% of the world's population and growing. The third-largest population is Hinduism: 950 million people, or 13% and stable in growth.
Judaism, the third and original Abrahamic-family religion, comes in at #11 with 14.5 million, or less than 1% of the world. That's even less than the Atheists (150 million, or 2%) and the Chinese folk traditionalists (390 million, or 6%).
Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm
One thing in the analysis struck me as poignant, and it touches on your argument (and the general argument by "civilized" Westerners who are afraid to meet new people)
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According to David Barrett et al, editors of the "World Christian Encyclopedia: A comparative survey of churches and religions - AD 30 to 2200," there are 19 major world religions which are subdivided into a total of 270 large religious groups, and many smaller ones. 34,000 separate Christian groups have been identified in the world. "Over half of them are independent churches that are not interested in linking with the big denominations."
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Independent churches include Westboro Baptist and denominations that recruit skinheads, violent racists, terrorists like McVeigh and Dylann Roof, and opportunists like Phil "Duck Dynasty" Robertson's and Josh Duggar's families.
I'm not saying that Islam doesn't have any problems going on in its house, but I'm suggesting that Christianity might want to clean up its own before going after anyone else about theirs. Even the Bible says that sectarianism is a carnal sin, and there are 34,000 examples of proof as to why.
Trust me, if Islam wanted anyone wiped off the face of the planet, they'd've done it a long time ago. But you're never going to get cooperation out of someone when you've got a gun pointed to their head, and telling them that even if they give you what you want you'll still pull the trigger.
And nothing is going to change unless you change what you do. It's your gun, it's in your hand, it's your call to either pull that trigger or stand down. I'd recommend standing down, sitting down, shutting up, and talking this out.
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Brother John
Consider that we're thought of as simple minded pawns by the mere handful of families and and organizations who have controlled the world's money supply and shaped world events for century after century, handing their control and power down from generation to generation. Also consider that this is not a "conspiracy theory". Many "world leaders", including the current Pope, both Bush presidents, Winston Churchill and others have openly spoken about the New World Order. They eagerly await the coming of a one world government, currency and religion.
The roadblocks of the NWO include national pride and sovereignty, cultural tradition and sovereign currency. The core of those working to crush these roadblocks has always been Ordo ab Chao or Problem - Reaction - Solution, which is described here.
http://ethics.wikia.com/wiki/Problem_Reaction_Solution
While our collective attention is focused on carefully crafted problems and events such as ISIS, Transgender bathrooms, the U.S. Presidential (s)election, climate change, racial tensions, etc, the wheels of change are turning faster. War, violence and chaos continues to erupt at an increasing pace around the world. So many "PROBLEMS".
The REACTION to the "problems" are plain to see. You can see them in some of the comments here and in other threads as well. Different groups are being pitted against one another with the age old Divide and Conquer methods. Blacks against Whites… Christians against Muslims…. Wealthy against Poor...I've posted links to several articles and encourage everyone to take the time to read them. Unless enough of the world's population awakens to the powerful mind control of propaganda that's being rained down on us, the SOLUTIONS will be beyond our imaginations.
Mass Migration to Europe http://freedom-articles.toolsforfreedom.com/mass-migration-to-europe-in-line-with-nwo/
NWO Agents and Satan Worshippers http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/09/11/nwo-agents-and-satan-worshipers-plotted-to-destroy-europe-through-massive-refugees/
Agenda Behind the Refugee Crisis https://jamesperloff.com/2015/10/03/the-agenda-behind-the-refugee-crisis/
The United Nations http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_un04.htm
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William Waugh
I, for one, do not get the angst over a one world government. Just not one operated by religion. Scientist's agree, warp drive and "transporters" are fantasy, but everything else from "Star Trek" visionaries has been improved upon! ......I guess maybe I might get it. This planet is way too 'Star Wars" to embrace "Star Trek".
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Dreamsinger
Warp drive has been successfully achieved in a research lab setting. It was very, very slight, but the sensors picked it up last year.
Transporters are still at the sub-atomic level of capability, but there's some question as to whether string theory and supersymmetry had any factor in it.
Though it does beg the need to start considering the "Dr. McCoy Conundrum." We may soon find out if he had a valid worry.
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Marek
" Islam does not permit physical contact with a person of the opposite sex "- so shaking hands is forbidden - but but sexual harassment like in Berlin Dez. 31.2015 is ok ?! Funny Morality
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mega
Their excuse to that (sexual acts, alcoholism, drugs, etc) is "those people aren't real muslims".
Guess i dont know any real muslims then ?
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Brother John
Refugees haven't "moved to another country". They're not off on a vacation and most haven't moved only to find work. The unpleasant truth is that western nations (principally the U.S., Britain and it's allies) have attacked and decimated a number of countries including: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen and others under the premise of the Global War on Terror (which started as a knee-jerk response to 9/11). Most of the refugees are fleeing the carnage to survive and would have preferred to have stayed in their own countries and cultures without being invaded and bombed.
The lack of empathy and understanding some people display is as horrifying as the current killing for profit….. They say a picture's worth a thousand words…. While repeating the mindless chant "go back where you came from" use Google to search images (you can select "images" on the main screen) of "war in syria" (or iraq, libya, etc.) You can also scroll down the page linked below to the images to answer the questions "what's really going on in Iraq" and "Why don't they just stay there?"
http://mindprod.com/politics/iraqwarpix.html#IRAQWARPIX
I encourage everyone to do this and take a long, hard look. Too many of us remain safe and secure in our comfy homes disparaging people like these and supporting death and destruction without justification. It's beyond disgusting. At the same time we need to ask, "why are they so angry?" Imagine these photos include your own communities, family and friends. If foreign invaders were raining down death and destruction on your country and neighbourhood day after day, without any provocation on your part, would you want to escape to another country? Would you be angry and desperate?
If this doesn't awaken your humanity, compassion and understanding, you are as good as dead and rotting from the inside.
What can we do to stop the flood or refugees? How about doing everything we can to stop the illegal wars of aggression and mindless slaughter for profit that creates both refugees and radicals bent on vengeance. Christian churches should all be loudly and publicly decrying the current wars, but they are essentially silent. Yes, you'll be seen by some as "unpatriotic" and the churches may be concerned about their membership and preferential tax status. What would stop you from asking to address your congregation and writing letters to the editor for publication in your local newspaper? You might be concerned about what others would think about your "patriotism and support of the troops". You may be lectured about "defending the freedoms your forefathers fought for" or any number of other consequences. As ULC members, what should be included in "doing the right thing"?
It's time to clearly define our beliefs and put them into action. If we're Christian, we should be asking "what would Jesus do"? Would he support the Global War on Terror? Would he deny sanctuary to those fleeing the chaos and horror that our countrymen are creating? Would he promote bigotry and hatred, or love and compassion?
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Andrea
Bravo, very well said! I wholeheartedly agree. I do however, believe that even refugees should not expect to 'rearrange the furniture' in their new home nations and must respect the customs of the nations to which they have escaped. It seems sad to me that customs such as those in Austria and Canada must be accommodating and dismissed for a select few. What you do in the privacy of your own home is your own business. If I went to a country in the Middle East and was expected, according to their customs, to put on a head scarf when venturing out in public, I would do so out of respect for thier culture. I may find it difficult to not shake hands or hug members of the opposite sex just because of what I've been conditioned to expect, but I wouldn't be upset by my own period of adjustment. What is needed, and is so often lacking, is respect, compassion and a desire to really get to know and understand the other's point of view in these arguments.
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Brother John
I live in Canada Andrea, and wonder how you'd describe "Canadian culture". The father of our current Prime Minister described the difference between Canadian and American culture this way…(I paraphrase)… America is a melting pot that discourages the cultural differences of immigrants with the expectations they will become American. Canada is a cultural mosaic that embraces diversity and a variety of cultures. As said elsewhere in this forum, most of us have lived relatively privileged, safe and comfortable lives, free from the horrors of war and the abuse and disrespect of foreign invaders. Considering this, the fact that there's a significant difference between immigrants and refugees, that our countries have played a role in creating the refugee crisis, and that we're part of a spiritually oriented organization that promotes "doing the right thing" where's the compassion, empathy and love?
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Brother John
Kindly scroll up to view the images of "rearranging the furniture" I posted today in my reply to Tom Jaynes, Andrea. It's currently being moderated but should be up soon. Fully understanding the horror many refugees have suffered needs to be incorporated into our compassion for them, along with accepting some responsibility as citizens of the countries who are perpetrating the death and destruction. The photos I posted and the hundreds available to view are the result of Western aggression, not ISIS, AlQueda or any of the other boogeymen that have been created.
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Dreamsinger
Brother John, I appreciate knowing that, as a Pagan who was forced to become an ordained Reverend in order to have any say or rights in my own country, I'm not living a false ideal. Thank you.
Civil disobedience is not going to be enough, and violent disobedience is not the answer (but it may very well come to that, if the folks who are in charge of the War OF Terror continue). I'm doing the best I can to be the change I seek in this world, and I know I'm not the only one that's having a go at it. But I think the best example of how we can serve our callings as ULC members is this: http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fort-lauderdale-charges-90-year-old-two-pastors-feeding-homeless-n241971
Last I heard, they successfully sued the city to stop arresting them for doing community service.
And that's why I felt forced to become ordained. Unless you're wearing "the collar", you're wearing a collar. Stay awesome and always keep it classy.
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Brother John
Once again, welcome to the forum, tuna. My main purpose for being ordained was to gain access to the "Pastor's Point" column in our local newspaper. I've been able to post a number of articles that would not have been printed as a Letter to the Editor, although I've used that outlet as well. I've been trying to gain access to the churches as a guest speaker, without success, as a result of my often provocative articles and the perceived inadequacy of my ordination. I think anyone can post here, ULC ordination or not. I do find it amusing that a few of the fundamentalist Christian members become offended when they've chosen to participate willingly with Pagans, Druids, Atheists and other "non-believers". I haven't seen them on this thread so far though.
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Dreamsinger
Yeah, I've noticed that the Christian sects aren't real fond of someone doing motivational pep talk sermons. Which is just fine, because Jesus wasn't too fond of church buildings anyway.
He was very simple.
Very Buddhist, oddly enough. A lot of what he was said to do, and say, wasn't native to the Roman or Persian empires at the time. And they weren't things that the region would've understood or been much aware of.
The thing about the fundies is that I keep the "Pagan" part to myself when I'm in their territories. I don't dress, speak, or act in any way that would give me away. Salem isn't something we ever forgot.
It's interesting to see the people that the ULC draws for ordination. There's a lot who make the effort to serve the needs of the many. And there's a lot who haven't fully comprehended the magnitude of the job yet.
That's not a failure on anyone's part. Free Will is a double-edged sword. And as long as you got breath, you got time to learn.
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Minister Noah
Very well put, I fear that there are too many people who are misunderstanding this entire migrant crisis and are taking a very selfish stand on the matter, rather than the humanitarian option that I think Europe should adopt.
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Restrepo
Please Noah, Tell us how this humanitarian option would work?? Give government support to every immigrant who comes to Europe? Encourage them to tell their friends? Every single one of those European countries will go BROKE! Meanwhile their cultures will continue to deteriorate with the sickness of Islam
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Minister Noah
Restrepo, these poor people are fleeing a warzone. Wars have destroyed their homes, their towns, their countries. They have few places to go. Is it not our duty as human beings to ensure the best possible outcome for these people? Are you truly so lacking in any shred of human empathy that you would allow so many of these poor migrants to just dies. And the cultures in Europe would not deteriorate. If every single refugee who came from those regions was Muslim, and every single one of them came to Europe then the total population of Muslims in Europe would rise from 4% to 5%. OH NO!!! And even if the migrants did affect the culture of Europe, so what? Haven't we achieved the rich diversification of culture throughout our planet via mass immigration and movement of people?
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Restrepo
Easy for you to say, you don't live there! Why don't you ask someone from Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, etc.? I'm SURE they would feel differently. And not all are fleeing war zones, as much as these compassionate liberals like to tell themselves. Not even CLOSE. Most are coming for gov handouts since their economies back home are garbage.
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Dreamsinger
Easy for you to say, Restrepo.
You're not the one who was in Tepic, Mexico for several months, coming face-to-face with (and barely surviving) a "Desaparecido"'s adopted daughter and her Honduran handler.
I got back to the States a few months before the kids swarmed the southern border, fleeing several thousands of miles of war zones that we have some direct involvement. Those kids were waiting for the really bad winter weather to calm down so it'd be safer.
And our country showed a lot of empathy to those kids. Mostly by labeling them terrorists, drug dealers, infectious pests, rapists, and rounding them up with plans to execute them in the head.
It's easy for you to say, Restrepo. And I don't hate you for being weak.
I pity the weak.
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Brother John
Compare the expense of countries dealing with the influx of refugees compared to the military expenditures that are being spent/squandered by the same countries that are creating the very same refugees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures
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Rev. Hugo Lindum
None of us know what Jesus would do or say. We do however know the thoughts of His Holiness Tge Dalai Kama, who states that there are too many immigrants in Europe.
As for the refugees fleeing for their lives, true for some, but not for even the majority who do not come from war torn countries. (The West did not attack Syria by the way). Do you not find it strange that the refugees while "fleeing for their lives", want to flee to totally alien Christian cultures rather then fleeing to Muslim countries? Why do they want to go to those countries with a more generation welfare system? What is your solution to those who do not come from places at war?
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Brother John
A couple of things in reply to your post, Hugo. You can put your first sentence in past tense… no one knows what Jesus said or did as there are no eyewitness accounts of his life, nor are there any original manuscripts of the four Gospels which supposedly chronicle his life, death and resurrection.
What peaceful (non-war torn) countries are the majority fleeing from? Name them and site your source. Scroll down a bit on this link to find the 10 origin countries of migrants applying for asylum in the EU. How many are peaceful nations with no reason for flee?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34131911
The West most certainly attacked Syria by proxy. The U.S. (Obama and others) openly called for the removal of the duly elected Assad from office years ago (this is common knowledge and easy to confirm) The West has been training, supporting and arming "rebel forces" (arming principally through Libya, Saudia Arabia and Turkey). The premise was, once again, Assad's use of chemical weapons (ala Saddam). Much of the world finds this thinly veiled hypocrisy coming from a country that sprayed over 12 million gallons of Agent Orange on civilian populations in the S.E. Asia, contaminated much of the M/E with D/U munitions and used nuclear weapons on civilians.
You asked why refugees are choosing to flee to Christian rather than Muslim countries… Although not stated here, you may believe that Europe is being "over run by Muslims" which is a common mantra today. Here are a few facts that you may find surprising from the Feb.3, 2016 Amnesty International report linked below.
Let's start with those that contradict the fear mongering misinformation that's so rampant today (i.e: EUROPE IS FINISHED!!!! WE'LL ALL BE UNDER SHARIA LAW SOON!!!! THEY'RE BEHEADING BABIES!!! THEY'RE NOT REFUGEES, THEY'RE COMING HERE'S FOR OUR WELFARE CHEQUES!!!!)
In total, 162,151 resettlement places have been offered globally since the start of the Syria crisis, which equates to a mere 3.6% of the total population of Syrian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt and Turkey. (Do you understand this? Only 3.6 % of the refugees are outside of these five already overburdened countries)
Gulf countries including Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Bahrain have offered zero resettlement places to Syrian refugees. (These are allies of the West and most, if not all, are complicit in the destruction of Syria and Yemen to name two)
More than 4.5 million refugees from Syria are in just five countries Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq and Egypt
Lebanon hosts approximately 1.1 million refugees from Syria which amounts to around one in five people in the country. (I'll assume this answers the question "why don't they take more")
According to the UN around 250,000 people have been killed and 13.5 million people are in urgent need of humanitarian assistance inside Syria
More than 50% of Syria’s population is currently displaced
One-in-every-two of those crossing the Mediterranean this year – half a million people – were Syrians escaping the conflict in their country
Funding shortages mean that the most vulnerable Syrian refugees in Lebanon receive just $21.60 per person month or around US$0.70 cent a day for food assistance, well below the UN’s poverty line of US$1.90 (I'd want to get to something better than this too)
Source: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/02/syrias-refugee-crisis-in-numbers/
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Rhonda
when in Rome do as they Romans do...keep traditions but if you are in another country you must learn the language and go by their laws and traditions. if you don't like it...move!!!
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Dreamsinger
Alright, but if my high school Latin teacher was any indication, I don't think Rome's gonna like my efforts to be like them.
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Tom
I was raised in a way that taught me never to go to another person's home and re-arrange their furniture. I have applied that throughout my life when visiting the homes, offices, churches and countries of other people. I am a guest and should behave accordingly. If I am uncomfortable in a setting or have some philosophical difference with the way things are done, I am free to exit the same way I entered. Under no circumstances do I determine what is appropriate in some one else's home. Could it be any simpler than that!
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Kathleen Baird
Very well described!
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Tom
Additionally, what I have said applies to us going to their homes in other countries in an attempt to rearrange their furniture. Quite wrong, indeed. But two wrongs do not make any of it right.
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Brother John
Thank you for that clarification, Tom. Take the time to view images of any of the current ME wars in Syria, Yemen, Libya and Iraq to see what "rearrange their furniture" means in reality. Here are just a couple as the links are large. We weren't invited to their countries nor are we welcomed as guests, for brutally obvious reasons.
https://s17-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.M0f501903072ba9ca13c145d7576bb287H0%26pid%3D15.1%26f%3D1&sp=49ef0ea482f025400086147e00038262
https://s17-us2.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.M5cf22774c11afb6be77614b2b3f9a82bo0%26pid%3D15.1%26f%3D1&sp=1617bdf9541bbc842a07a9b3e03d8582
We can even make our presence known without physically being there… https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.M8eac8586f62dea568cd4ddca52149000o0%26pid%3D15.1%26f%3D1&sp=bd8d5a7a498ac249ca9d679a1d7fa28a
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Winston
They aren't guests if they move there...
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James Pace
If you move to another country you should expect to, at least to a degree, acclimate to that country"s customs...if you like your traditional customs so much go back to where you came from...
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Kathleen Baird
James, if we went to their country, we would expect, and understand that we would be expected to, follow their rules and customs. Why do we have to change? I am still outraged that the courts ruled that Canada had to change the rules so that a Royal Canadian Mounted Police officer could choose to not wear the traditional hat if they chose to wear a turban for religious reasons. Why? Joining the RCMP is not mandatory. If you choose to join, you choose to wear the traditional uniform.
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Hugo
If I came to your country would you expect me to follow your laws? Would you expect me to start to impose my own legal system with it own courts imposing my laws? Would you tolerate me threatening death, and even actually killing those who I decide offends my religion? That is now the situation in Europe.
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Dreamsinger
There are Americans who take a paid tour vacation to Barcelona, and get furious because nobody in Spain speaks English to accommodate them. I kid you not, this is a huge headache for a lot of tour guides.
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Rick Jones
It does seem to be a clash of cultures here. Even if terrorism didn't exist, there probably would still be apprehensions. Only now one side must be careful of what they say and it seems the other side simply expects respect without consideration of culture or opposing thought. So, when one or the other is the majority, who is the most tolerant?
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Dreamsinger
The one with the guns, tanks, and military drones, apparently. If you happen to be the one those things are pointed at, well, you're not considered human.
Humanity's seen this played out before. You didn't learn. And now you're the ones wearing the armbands. However you still have time... but the time to make the choice of being representatives of peace is quickly coming to a close. Speak your piece, or forever hold your peace. But do something.
It's only a matter of time before the rights you take from others will be taken from you as well.
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Bobby Abilo
I'm sorry, but how is anyone supposed to respect the opinions of someone who, in a spiritually oriented forum, identifies themselves with the moniker, 'Tunalick2014'? That is distasteful and disgraceful. All that aside, Muslim culture IS at odds with Western culture and attempting to superimpose two vastly different ideologies on the same soil WILL result in calamity. It has zero to do with atrocities committed in the past; everyone knows what has been done in the past, which is primarily WHY this issue is to be looked upon with a certain measure of gravity and a somber attitude. Social Justice Warrior whining does nothing for anyone right now, so your attempt at intellectualism via sardonic rhetoric falls short of the mark. You'd be well-advised to reevaluate a few things in your own life (starting with that ridiculous user name) before you saunter up to the grownups table.
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Dreamsinger
Oh trust me, I could've been more distasteful and disgraceful when I came up with the WordPress account name 2 years ago. But that wouldn't've been my style.
But I'm glad I gave you something to smile about. Stay awesome and always keep it classy!
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Thomas Adams
Of course the basic view of Muslims worldwide is that their "rights" are the only ones that matter. Look at India and Pakistan. They were divided into two countries on a religious basis. India for Hindus. Pakistan for Muslims. If you're a non-muslim minority in Pakistan...you have no rights. If you live in a border area of India your land should be part of Pakistan. If you're a minority Muslim in India...your rights need to be respected. Anyone remember how that headscarf thing in France included insistence on the right of Muslims in some neighborhoods in Paris to rape women who weren't dressed in a manner they found appropriate? And you can't very well tell that someone's Muslim just by looking, so this standard would apply to non-muslims living in non-muslim countries. Does anyone remember the chain of Muslim intellectuals going on TV after 9/11 explaining how while Bin Laden used techniques that were disagreeable, his agenda was the only one a rational Muslim caring for the well-being of Saudis would have and that he was the only high profile individual actually doing something about the "problem"? Bottom line, Islam is in a cultural war with western culture that regularly becomes a shooting war and has been at least since the overthrow of the Shah. We started it. Exporting imagery and ideology that run contrary to their religious views is a basic attack on their identity and they're choice ultimately is to fight back or fade away. Just because the situation is our fault doesn't mean that we should roll over and die just because it suits them. Maybe make a refuge for these poor backwards souls in Saudi Arabia (after they well and truly run out of oil, of course) and they can be preserved as a curiousity without being given the chance to harm the rest of us.
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Dreamsinger
Try being a Pagan in the Bible Belt region of the United States. Then you might understand why I'm a bit disappointed that I have to become an ordained minister in order to have rights in America.
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Rev. Hugo Lindum
I'm very sorry but you have no idea about the situation of non Moslims in many Muslim countries. I've lived in a couple of them, and their lives are constant harassment and deaths are a daily event. I've visited the Bible Belt, and there's no comparison.
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Brother John
A couple of points in response to your post, Thomas. The Shah of Iran was a pompous Western puppet installed by the CIA/U.S./Britain to loot the country's resources. The backlash of this international piracy was fundamentalist Islam. 15 of the supposed 19 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudis, as was/is BinLaden. The "official" report on 9/11 and the "investigation" were both pathetic jokes. Those who question them are still branded as "conspiracy theorists" by the general population who prefer to avoid any ugly truths. There are thousands of architects, engineers, law enforcement and military officers and others who are certain the three (not two) buildings came down by controlled demolition, not plane impact/fire. As more than 14 years have passed, it looks as though the real perpetrators will not be identified or prosecuted for crimes against humanity, which would include the thousands killed on 9/11 plus the hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed and the millions displaced by the resulting, and on-going, GWOT. The all Muslim Saudis have been favoured Western allies for decades. Although directly responsible for much of the death and destruction that's created the "refugee crisis", they have not accepted a single refugee. They are one of, if not the, world's largest arms importer. Their ally, the U.S., is one of, if not the, largest arms exporter.
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Jessica Martini
Shaking hands is yucky
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Bob Anderson
What a deep, insightful response.
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Dreamsinger
And excellent advice, if you haven't yet experienced the joys of using a Porta-Potty at a concert or country fair.
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John Clark
More trouble is caused in the name of religion than any other reason. Strange as all religion are based on not harming your fellow man. Even the Quran state you will not enter the kingdom of heaven if you kill anyone There are extremists in all religions, we all need to learn to live together, to accept we are all different and to respect each other, on this small planet
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Brothers and sisters it is written ''Don't betrayed Refugees''.(Bible ; ISAIAH)
Let me mention this again and it is written in Divine Revelation Q 'ran: Whoever is wont to think(though envy) that God will not give him(Muhammad) victory in the world and the Hereafter( and is enraged at the though of his victory), let him stretch a rope up to the roof(of his dwelling), and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispels that at which he rages! Thus We reveal it as plain revelations, and verily God guides whom He wills.
Lo! Those who believe(this revelation), and those who are Jews, and the Sabaeans and the Christians and the Magians and the idolaters-Lo! God will decide between them on the Day of Resurrection. Lo! God is witness over all things.
Have you not seen that to God pays adoration whoever is in the heavens and whoever is in the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the hills, and the trees, and the beast, and many of people, while there are many to whom the punishment is justly due. He whom God scorns , there is none to give him honor. Lo! God does what He wills.
Brothers and sisters it written ''Don't betrayed Refugees''.
May God bless all of you
Even the Qu'ran believes in the Golden Rule. How can a sane person hate anyone else for being beholden to the same requirements on how to live?
If you're going to go around claiming that everyone else is persecuting you and trying to destroy for your beliefs, it might be a good idea to NOT be the one holding the sword, hmmm?
Thank you for a ray of rational happiness, Gallet. Stay awesome!