A little over a year ago, we posed a simple question: would Jesus want gun control? Given the contentious nature of the issue, it's no wonder the question provoked a range of reactions. Some readers said yes, because he advocated for peace. Others pointed out that the Bible endorses self-defense, and insisted Jesus would support the Second Amendment.
After traumatic events, it's only natural to look to a higher power for answers. We feel lost, confused, and angry. We need guidance. So, what is the religious community saying in response to the recent mass shooting in Parkland, Florida?
It depends who you ask.
Faith Leaders Call for Gun Control
In the wake of the Parkland shooting, there has been a torrent of outrage and demands for stricter gun laws. However, many people were surprised to see famous evangelist Pat Robertson throw his weight behind gun control legislation.
"I've got no opposition whatsoever to shooting, but for heaven's sakes, I don't think that the general population needs to have automatic weapons," Robertson said. "We can ban those things without too much trouble. And they have what they call bump stocks that you hit and it goes automatic. We can stop that."
Meanwhile, a separate group of 15 evangelical leaders started a petition for gun safety. In an apparent attempt to distance themselves from those who simply call for "thoughts and prayers" after mass shootings, they wrote:
"We call on our fellow Christian believers, church leaders, and pastors across the country to declare that we will decisively respond to this problem with both prayer and action."
The petition argues there is a "biblical responsibility" to support common-sense gun legislation.
Church Hosting AR-15 Blessing Ceremony
On the other end of the spectrum, a Pennsylvania church is encouraging parishioners to bring their AR-15 rifles to be blessed in a special commitment ceremony. Although the event was planned prior to the massacre in Florida (in which the shooter used an AR-15), church leaders have announced they'll go forward with the ceremony anyway.
"Now more than ever, good people need to stand up and claim for themselves the tools that can be used to stop that kind of evil," church director Tim Elder told reporters. Elder believes that rifles such as the AR-15 symbolize the "rod of iron" that appears in the Bible's book of Revelation.
The church in question is just down the road from a local school a fact that makes many parents uncomfortable. However, there aren't any laws against bringing guns to church, so authorities have no plans to intervene.
"Granted By God"
Following this most recent mass shooting, one group that's taken a lot of heat is the National Rifle Association (NRA). The group's chief executive, Wayne LaPierre, went to great lengths to defend Americans' Second Amendment rights during a speaking event earlier today.
The right to bear arms is "not bestowed by man but granted by God to all Americans as our American birthright," LaPierre told the crowd. He got loud cheers from the audience.
However, the notion that God endorses America's gun culture didn't sit well with many people. Critics took to platforms like Twitter to ask where in the Bible does it say gun ownership is a right granted by God:
Others voiced their disagreement in a more humorous fashion:
Looking for Guidance
Jokes aside, how can religious teachings guide our thinking on the issue of gun control? Some say that we should strive for a peaceful society that's less obsessed with guns. That we shouldn't resort to using firearms to solve disputes or exact revenge. They point to a broad theme of benevolence toward others -- found across numerous religious texts -- as evidence that higher powers would likely disapprove of gun rights.
But gun advocates say that's a naive position; if we disarm the population, then we'll be unable to defend ourselves from bad guys who don't care about the laws. And like it or not, they argue, the Constitution provides Americans certain unalienable rights. Rights given by God. Gun ownership included.
What do you think?
[democracy id="5"]
204 comments
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Larry Copeland
Was it Jesus who told the Decyples to get Knives for self defense??
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John Owens
He told them to buy a sword.
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themiddleme
A sword isn't a gun. It will never be a gun and the most it will ever be is a sword. I'd feel safer allowing people to carry swords because at least you really can't conceal those, you have to get into close combat to use them, and you can't kill as many people as quickly with a sword.
"Ephesians 6:17 And take THE HELMET OF SALVATION, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."
Does this also not count at all?
52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all those who take up the sword shall perish by the sword.
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John Owens
Use your head for one moment. Did Jesus take up a wooden post with which to hurt others? And yet He was killed with a wooden post. Carrying a weapon is not living by that weapon. Goliath carried a spear and a sword, yet was felled by a stone, and beheaded by a sword. Armed robbers, mercenaries, pirates, revolutionaries, and to a lesser extent, soldiers and police live by the sword. The sword of the Spirit and a 9mm are not mutually exclusive. I have had a handgun since I was sixteen. I will be 61 in a couple months. Not dead yet.
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Rev. John D. Partin
John Owens, though I know that you won't answer this post (as you and I have no interest in your doing and keep up the good work!!), I will still say this for other people's benefit. "The sword of the spirit and a 9mm are not mutually exclusive". Yeah, right! Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition! That is an obviously self-contradictory statement to most reasonable people, but no more so than "the sword of the spirit and a 9mm are not mutually exclusive". "I have had a handgun since I was 16. I will be 61 in a couple months. Not dead yet". Then, you have just been very lucky, especially considering your personality and thinking, because many other people with handguns have been killed and so their guns didn't save them and your gun hasn't saved you. If you really believe in people's right to have any guns that they want, last time that I checked a rifle with a scope for shooting from a distance TRUMPS (pun intended!) a handgun for shooting at close range and you are still here because you haven't drawn the attention and anger of someone so armed!! "Carrying a weapon isn't living by that weapon". Even when that weapon allows the holder of it to go on living?!! What, according to you, is the difference between militias and vigantees or lynch mobs, when, as you say, the police can't protect us all the time and so the people have to take the law into their own hands?!! You said in another post that you were talking about true Christians, such as those found in Foxe's Book of Martyrs. Martyrs, of course, weren't shooting at people or the perpetrators of violence, but were the ones being shot at and the victims of violence and murder! Those were the true Christians, as you said. You said in another post that if Christians had practiced pacifism down through history, there wouldn't be any of them around today. Some people certainly survived until today, but they weren't Christians, according to your own definition of them as martyrs and "turn the other cheek" and "Put away your sword! Don't you know that I could summon legions of angels to defend me, but how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled?" people. They were compromised and compromising people, not genuine Christians. The Kingdom of God is Within You by Leo Tolstoy goes into much more depth about this! Of course, I neither expect nor want a reply from you to this post, but put it here only for others to respond to it in your place.
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Wuzhu
Jesus said turn the other cheek.
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Carl Elfstrom
Do y'all think Jesus was right about every single thing he said? He took human form, and to err is human. Besides that, there are many truths to everything depending on one's point of view. It is impossible to address every point of view at the same time with only one answer for everything. When Jesus said to turn the other cheek he was probably only referring to bedroom games.
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themiddleme
Jesus was human but also God so He was perfect. So no, He never erred. He was not a completely human person. He rose from the dead, which humans can't do.
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John Owens
That was for slaps, not gunshots.
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Marcel French
Like anything else in the world guns regardless of whether it's a sidearm or an assault rifle shotgun or any other type of rifle how it's used determines whether or not it's good or evil. You want to blame somebody for the evils of gun ownership well then you need to start realizing that those who do evil things are the only ones who are evil gun owners. Of course there's also the fact that as of the last few reported shootings none of those people actually owned the weapons they used they were rented or stolen. And as it's been pointed out before no amount of gun law regulation is going to stop criminals and other people who wish to do evil with weapons from obtaining them.
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Randall Worcester
Rented or stolen? Guess you don’t comprehend what you read or hear. Sandy Hook legal guns he had the right to use. San Bernardino legal guns purchased by shooter Parkland legal weapon purchased by shooter That being said, we can’t legislate away insanity or murderous rage. Forget all this bull about “it’s my right to own a weapon” yes it is. Something has to be done about all this senseless killing. A law? We have both a State/Federal law against murder and a moral law against murder also! Why have Americans started killing each other? “Oh they made me mad so I have to kill them”? Makes no sense! We have more than enough laws against what has happened but we need to end it somehow. How? No other country in the world has this kind of problem. Third world countries are at war with themselves and statistics show America has more gun deaths! Makes no sense
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Keith
I tell you why we have a problem now. The younger generation has no respect for others. People will agree and disagree on everything. Today, what they believe is the only thing that is right!!!! It started with no more spanking. Not allowed to yell at them. No more using red ink to fix correct their test. WHY? You will hurt their self esteem. Plus you got the media. Doesn’t matter which side but the shooter(s) get to much publicity. What about video games? Music? What going to happen when they start using their parents cars and running over people? The younger generation is a lot smarter with the technology they have today put lack REPECT for others. Guns, cars, or whatever, they will find something.
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Carl Elfstrom
In every generation the older generation has said that about the younger generation. Different people may have been killed for different reasons, but it has always been going on. Nothing is new in this world. Everything has happened before and will happen again. It might be best to accept life on its own terms and live the best we can. We might even try leading by example.
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Jim
I agree with Keith and also you are right Carl. It has been said before but in this day and age it is true. The Me generation or X gen or whatever they are calling themselves these days. Look around you. You hardly ever hear a young person say Mr. Or Mrs. Yes ma'am or no Ma'am. They will yell and an elderly person in public. I have a daughter that is 30 and thinks her way is the only way. When I get into conversations with younger folks they get mad if I don't agree with what they say. (which I rarely do). look at the songs of today how woman are talked about. The B word is in almost all the songs when talking about woman. There is no respect for the police, elders, authority of any kind. So while you are right Carl every generation has said that about the next Generation now it has come true.
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Jim D.
Randall, a slight correction: Sandy Hook: the shooter killed the legal owner of the gun, his mother, and then took the gun (obviously without permission, since he killed the one person who could give him permission). San Bernardino: the guns were purchased legally, and then modified in such a way to make them illegal in California. But you are right in one respect. There are enough laws to protect us. The problem is law enforcement does not enforce these laws. If they had done their jobs, the Parkland shooter would have been identified as a person prohibited from possessing firearms, and he would not have been able to purchase the gun. So do we really think passing more laws for law enforcement to ignore will save us? I think not.
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Clayton Beardmore
Amen!
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Carl Elfstrom
I try to avoid young people Jim so I don't know much about what they're doing and saying. I live in a middle age apartment building and hope to have most of the same neighbors when it's an old folks home. And although I love most genres of music, except for a little Emenem on rare occasions I almost never hear any rap, and when I do I quickly change the station ( usually to 107 The Eagle ( Houston's classic rock station), so I almost never hear a derogative word about a woman in a song. Although there have always been, and will always be all kinds of evil and foul-mouthed people in this world we seldom ever have to be around or experience who or what we don't want to be around or experience, unless we work in law enforcement, social services, security, or the military. I hav'nt done security work since 1987, and hav'nt volunteered in a soup kitchen since 1992, and won't return to either, for I too greatly value my sanity. Now I spend most of my time as a middle aged homebody couch potato mostly going back and forth between my CNN, Amazon, and ULC apps on this android phone, and otherwise, except for a few phone calls, spend most of my time alone in solitude. I'll let the rest of y'all deal with the crazies of this world, if y'all want to or have to. I've long since been burned out on all that crap, so I avoid it like the plague. Next to this my favorite social activity is grocery shopping. And thank God I don't have to do that everyday.
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Steve E.
Another thing to point out is that none of the shootings were carried out by a NRA member. Some were however stopped by NRA members.
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The Rev. Dr. Marion Ceruti
This is correct. The NRA does not welcome criminals into membership. It is the oldest civil rights organization in the USA. If we did not have it, we probably could not exercise any gun rights. The NRA has been on the forefront of gun-safety education and marksmanship programs.
In fact, Gun Owners of America and the National Association for Gun Rights are organizations whose philosophy is even better than that of the NRA - no compromise with the gun grabbers. A small amount of poison is still poison. We need to resist any and all attempts to regulate guns and gun ownership in the USA. Criminals continue to terrorize communities because too many of the law-abiding citizens are unarmed.
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themiddleme
What does the NRA think about people who are gun obsessive, though? There are gun owners and then there are GUN OWNERS. You know the difference. Some have a gun and know how to use it in the event of an attack, but others are just plain enamored of the thing and the power it represents. They're less respectful and more proud and just get plum excited to go on at length about their guns and how many they have, and they just want to show off and boost their own egos. Those people think others admire them and are in awe of them and their power. It's strange to me. A gun is a tool, that's all. But so many use it as an extension of their masculinity and in place of it in some cases.
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John Owens
Do you actually KNOW any of these fantasy gun-owners of whom you speak? Sounds like a prejudice that exists mostly in your mind.
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Rev. John D. Partin
John Owens, you wouldn't accept the possibility of gun obsession or know it if it came right up to you and shot you in the foot and would make excuses for it and "justify" it even then!! Anyway, here is more evidence online of gun obsession and more pearls cast in front of swine just for you: https://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2014/03/being-fanatical-gun-nut-psychiatric-disorder https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a1b2d98e4b0bf1467a487af https://m.huffpost.com.cm.huffpost.com.ca/ward-anderson/americas-obsession-with-guns-is-a-real-mental-illness_a_23231167/ https://m.huffpost.cm.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_815153 Well, that's enough for now, especially for someone who won't read or actually consider these articles, anyway. I don't have all day to post them or you have all day to not read them!!
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Sam
I hate to say it folks, but there is too much crazy going on in the name of GOD.
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Dan Atatakai
Sam - I agree. This is what is meant in the 10 Commandments of "using the name of the Lord in vain." It has nothing about swearing when you stub your toe while walking barefoot in the dark.
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Carl Elfstrom
Gaddammit, I think he's fucking right !
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John Owens
atatkaidanjp, I agree with you about that. Most people do not even KNOW the Deity's name, and among those who do, there is disagreement as to its accurate pronunciation, but your sentiment is correct. A prophet in the scripture once cursed (in the Deity's name) a group of adolescents who were making fun of him, and a she-bear came out and mauled 42 of them. Some people think Anti-Christ is someone who claims to be Christ, but what Christ said was, "Many shall come in My name, saying that I (Jesus) am the Christ, and shall deceive many." Parenthetical note is mine. It just depends how one reads the verse, like, "Honestly I say unto you today, you shall be with me in Paradise," or, "Honestly I say unto, today you shall be with me in Paradise." It is a question of emphasis, which the original Greek Koine did not reveal, as it had no punctuation.
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themiddleme
People will say anything to keep the things they want. They'll even say God is ok with it. Back in the day, the English used to believe that if you were born poor, it's because God wanted you to be poor. If you were born rich, yay for you, God wanted that for you and the poor could not rise from their station in life because it was ordained by God. Some religious folks have used God to say that black people are cursed or that women don't have souls and so on. People use God in whatever way is beneficial to them. I do take offense at introducing God into this gun thing. Self defense does not necessarily mean using a gun. A sword also is not a gun. The combat is completely different, anyway.
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James
Jesus spoke of war, God spoke of war, and being meek is to fellow Christians that are attacking you. Not heathens, not other religions, and crazies. However, how many gun shows, or gun shops get shot up? Yeah, only gun free zones. That's where cowards go to kill innocent defenseless people. No one ever tried to bite a wolf. For good reason too. Feeble minds must not try philosophy. Especially if it isn't needed.
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themiddleme
God did say to put others ahead of yourself, though. Also told us not to judge. Yet here you are deciding who is feeble minded and who is not, who is "crazy" and who is not. Jesus taught humility yet you seem so proud and angry, even. So ready to decide for God who is worthy and who isn't.
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John Owens
The person who would take what is mine, or the life of someone dear to me, IS less worthy, less noble, less deserving of this life than I, because I do not seek to take anything from anyone else. As to eternal life, that is above my pay scale and everyone else's.
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drrgrivera
THAT IS NOT THE ROOT OF THE MATTER. WE HAVE THE GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO CREATE AND INVENT FOR THE PROTECTION OF LIFE OF ALL WHO RESPECT LIFE AND WHEN IT MEANS USING A GUN ON A LOWLIFE SCUM.........USE IT ON THEM! IDIOTS, MORONS, AND THE IGNORANT... WHO THINK GUNS ARE THE CAUSE CONTROLLING IDIOTS OF EVERY AGE, TO SHOOT PEOPLE....ARE THE BIGGER IDIOTS YOU WILL FIND DISARMING THE PEOPLE................ MAKING THEM TWICE OVER THE VICTIMS.
POSSESSING FIRE ARMS IS FOR ANY HUMAN BEING WHO KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE... AN IDIOT WITH NO RESPECT FOR EVEN THEIR OWN LIFE....HAS NOT EVEN A DERANGED CLUE ABOUT.
THESE SAME IDIOTS HAVE US CONVINCED THE LAW GIVES US OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHTS, WHEN IT IS PEOPLE DOING THEIR MOST DYSFUNCTIONAL BEST TO PROVE THIS- ROB EVERY ONE OF PROTECTION.
JUST YOU WAIT AND SEE. WE WILL HAVE TO DEFEND OURSELVES AND KILL WITH PENS AND PENCILS,..REMAINING IDIOTS WHO WERE STILL SHOOTING PEOPLE ON EVERY LEVEL. BY THEN ALL CRYING FOR THE DISARMING OF PEOPLE....WILL HAVE ALL BEEN KILLED OFF.
WE WERE NOT BORN WITH A GUN. WE WERE BORN WITH LEARNING ABILITY TO CREATE AND INVENT FOR THE DEFENSE OF LIFE, HOWEVER SHORT, OUR YEARS.
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Carl Elfstrom
When the law quits defending my right to defend myself and others I'll break that law. But that's our secret. Don't let the government know I said that.
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themiddleme
First off, it's hard to read when you use all caps. And that's a lot of ellipses. Aside from that, Jesus taught us humility and not to judge. Yet you're screaming and calling people idiots and scum and morons and so forth. If you believe in Jesus, being killed should not be a problem because you will go to Heaven and be in Paradise. Jesus said if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. He even admonished Peter for defending Him, He who had more right than any to be defended. He submit Himself to death and humiliation for us, but you seem to think yourself mightier than He. You insist that your life is worth more, and decide whose lives are not valuable at all. This is not Christian.
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Guairdean
Christ said in Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." and in Luke 11:21 Christ said "When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace". We have a God given right to self defence and to be safe in our dwellings. When the press stops giving these sniveling cowards fame, much of that safety will return.
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themiddleme
I'm fine with you owning a sword for self defense. Since that is what The Lord specified, that's what you should have. When He comes back maybe you can inquire on the gun thing because literally that isn't in the Bible.
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John Owens
Did Jesus in any place say, 'Thou shalt not own a gun for any reason?"
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John Owens
If a gun literally isn't in the Bible, why are we discussing the Bible and guns?
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Guairdean
Computers aren't literally in the Bible, either. When will you be disposing of yours? The same can be said of electricity and all of the appliances that rely on it. The Roman Gladius was the highest tech personal weapon of its time, and the most efficient killing device until the invention of the machine gun. Christ was advocating arming with a weapon that was equivalent to the best defensive weapon available. As has been said: "ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side."
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Jim
I don't really understand why when talking about this or any other subject some people feel the need to resort to name calling. Idiots morons etc. Just because folks have a different opinion about something does not make them a moron. I would argue that not listening to someone else in a careful manor make you the moron. I feel we have the right to bear arms as the 2nd amendment states and we do not have to be in a militia as stated by one comment. I also find it interesting that we place so much of the blame on Guns when we abort thousands of lives a year in this country. Much more than are taken by nuts with guns. Could it be that our country's core values is the root cause of these problems. We kill unborn children and consider it a right of choice. 50% of married folk end up in divorce. We still have a big problem with children born out of wedlock. With the technology of today we do not hold people responsible for their actions. I think this is the root problem. Spare the rod spoil the child. family core values no longer are part of American culture.
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John Maher
A PERSON KNOWING HOW , WHERE and WHEN to HUNT WILL NEVER NEED MORE than a FOUR SHOT CLIP, ANYTHING MORE is FEAR and IGNORANCE U N L E S S you are HUNTING HUMAN BEINGs,
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John Maher
ALL MILITARY TYPE ARMS SHOULD NOT BE ON ANY STREET, if NEEDED CALL in the MILITARY, ANY SHOTGUN is GREAT HOME PROTECTION BUTT if you FEEL the NEED for an AR-15 WELL a FOR SHOT CLIP BY LAW, OUT LAW the BIG CLIPS on the STREET, YOU CAN OWN it, BUTT ???
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Wendy
The AR 15 was a civilian gun before it was used by the military. It was adapted for military use by making it capable of being fully automatic. AR 15s sold to civilians are not fully automatic. Ever. So they aren't military style.
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Carl Elfstrom
Just because AR-15s were first designed for civilian use doesn't make them good for civilians.
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Carl Elfstrom
John Mayer, you took the words right out of my mouth. My sentiments exactly. However, it's not a good idea to fire a shotgun in your house. Those BBs spread out and can destroy stuff in your home. A .357 magnum with hollow point bullets is a better choice for home protection, if you're at least a pretty good marksman. If not, use wadcutters.
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Wendy
Depends on what you're hunting. A .22 is good for small game, and you definitely need more than 4 rounds in your magazine. An AR 15 is basically a .22, and the magazine means you don't have to carry a separate ammo pouch. If you're hunting deer with a .22 you'll need multiple hits unless you get very lucky with a head shot on the first try.
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Carl Elfstrom
You could just have a BB gun, and pump it twenty times, to get the same effect as a twenty two. But even a cross bow with a 150 pound draw weight will stop a deer. And I sure do love that venison sausage, straight from the butcher. All we have to eat in Galveston are seagulls. Do you know how many seagulls it takes to make a meal? A whole lot, and they don't taste very good either.
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themiddleme
And here we go with the gun lovers going on and on and on about their clips and magazines and frou frou wanting to be admired and adored.
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John Owens
It is a good thing gun lovers don't hate you as much as you appear to hate gun lovers. You'd be in grave danger if they did.
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Carl Elfstrom
All King David needed was a sling shot.
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Guairdean
David's slingshot was the equivalent of a modern day firearm. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4541318/Roman-sling-bullets-deadly-44-Magnum.html Goliath's mistake was bringing a knife to a gunfight.
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themiddleme
Since we still have slingshots, it was just a slingshot. It wasn't equivalent to anything but a slingshot. He also lopped off Goliath's head afterward.
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Dan Atatakai
Carl - Nice fable, however, this is reality.
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Carl Elfstrom
It may have more to do with what fires first, the gun or the sling shot.
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themiddleme
If you're saying that the Bible is a fable then you also have to agree that gun ownership is NOT a God-given right. Which is what the topic is about here.
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Rev. John D. Partin
To whom it may concern, Democrats and Liberals don't hate gun owners, being quite often gun owners themselves, and don't hate themselves, but do have a big problem with gun hoarders and gun nuts and gun obessive people, since they aggravate and egg on crazy killers more, who aggravate them, which further aggravates killers, etc. in a vicious circle!!
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Rev. John D. Partin
Correction: gun obsessive people.
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Guairdean
Democrats and liberals don't hate gun owners, they fear them. They see the right to own firearms as a threat to their right to rule. They see themselves as born to rule the rest of us. They pass laws limiting our freedoms in order to save us from ourselves. They do all of these things for our own good. They have to make sure we can't stand up and say "NO" to our betters. Labels such as "gun hoarders" and "gun nuts" are applied to show that we're defective in some way and our behavior must be corrected. Sadly, many who can't, or won't, think for themselves simply parrot what they're told without ever truly understanding the true meaning. Gun owners don't "egg on" killers. That's done quite effectively by the media. Every time there's a mass shooting, the media makes the shooter a celebrity. The demented cowards that commit these heinous acts crave fame, and the media is happy to oblige. If gun ownership encouraged mass killers, hunting season would be a slaughterhouse. Yet, oddly enough, there have been no reports of mass murders at a hunting camp. The cowards that want fame only seem to select easy targets. If you want to stop the attacks, take away the incentive. Tell the media they can only mention the victims, never the name, face, or any identifying data about the coward.
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Guairdean
It's best to remember that "Spare the rod spoil the child" isn't in the Bible. It's in a 17 century poem about a sadomasochistic relationship by Samuel Butler titled "Hudibras". Probably not the reference you were hoping for.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Guairdean, what part of "Democrats and Liberals also being gun owners" didn't you understand? Because they couldn't be gun owners themselves and also "see the right to own firearms as a threat to their right to rule" (and they don't rule), since that would be a contradiction in terms. We don't advocate or have rights for ourselves that we want to deny to everyone else, except in right-wing and neo-Nazi (the same thing, actually) feverish imagination and conspiracy "thinking". We don't rule because, if we did, we wouldn't have to be fighting all of the time with you neo-Nazis and conservatives in order to get anything done. That would be another contradiction in terms! Gun ownership and use for self-defense is fine and its legitimate purpose FOR THE TEN THOUSANDTH TIME!!! We aren't against that at all, but only against excessive and obsessive gun accumulation and adoration AFTER that basic requirement for self-defense has been met with a handgun and/or rifle or shotgun, and then you're just piling up guns in your houses to admire them and obsess over them!! When people pile up newspapers or clothes or books or boxes of items in their homes to the point that there is barely any room to move around in or live, like the old lady with 16 cats and cat shit all over her house, such as are shown in the TV series Hoarders, we don't hesitate to call those people hoarders. Well, I'm not going to refrain from calling people with guns strewn all over their houses or filling up an entire room or rooms or an entire wall hoarders, too, out of consideration for their feelings, because that is what they are!! Owning guns is one thing, but being owned by them is another!! They are supposed to be our servants, not we their servants and their hypnotizing us and making us always going out after more and more and more guns, as you must know that some gun nuts do (or else you don't know that many gun owners or as much about them as you think that you do, if you haven't seen that, yet!). We remain masters over guns, instead of their mastering us, by restricting their number to only what is really necessary for self-defense. Right-wing conspiracy gun nuts imagine that they will be able to take on the government and hold it off or defeat it in a battle or war, if they just pile up enough weapons in their homes. Look at the Branch Davidian compound or Ruby Ridge or The Order run by Robert Mathews if you want to see if these gun nuts can actually fight and win against the government!! I call them nuts because that is what they are: NUTS!!! That is just a statement of fact, not an insult!! Obsessive people!! Crazy killers go after people when there is no real threat against them, except in their minds, and so how would they not go after people, such as these gun nuts, who are themselves obsessive and excessive, who could be an actual threat to them? That there haven't been any mass shootings during hunting season might only be due to even crazy people's having still some sense of reality and sports left to them or else they just haven't got around to them, yet. Every man in the Old West had a gun and yet some of them were still shot and killed by other men with guns, who were faster and better shots than they were. So, their guns didn't save them. All modern wars have had people with guns going out to kill other people with guns. So much for people with guns "only going after people without guns". Crazy killers might even prefer going after people with guns over people without guns in order to see if they are faster on the draw and better shots than them and because they are more of a challenge. As for TV news coverage of mass shootings, like it or not, that is their job to inform the public about these things (and, hopefully, inspire more demand for keeping these weapons out of the hands of crazy people!). I seriously doubt that their not covering these atrocties would have any effect on other crazy people already heading toward those crimes, though they should focus more on the victims of these cowards, as you say.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Correction: these atrocities, not "atrocties".
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Guairdean
That's an amazingly long and rambling rant. I'm curious to know if you've sought counseling for your paranoia. You equate anyone that disagrees with you as a neo-Nazi, and ramble on about people with guns piled floor to ceiling. Have you ever seen, or even heard, of someone with a house piled high with guns? I've heard of one, and he was a licensed dealer that made a mistake and triggered a lot of paranoid, but unfounded, fear. Your delusion (and probably too many Hollywood westerns) has led you to believe that there were shootouts on every corner in the old west, and that there are still shootouts in the streets today. In reality, there was only one "showdown at high noon" in the old west and, apart from a couple of notorious towns, most people in the old west never saw an act of violence in their entire lives. Also contrary to your rantings, the rate of deaths by firearms has been falling steadily in modern times. You claim to have mastered the firearms you own, but you are mistaken. They have mastered you. They haunt your paranoid mind. Are you sure you're safe, or do you fear they'll sneak out at night and hurt you.
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Rev. John D. Partin
You are a pea-brain and very immature and so anything longer than "And" in a sentence is "an amazingly long and rambling rant to you" and overtaxes your puny mental powers of "understanding". So, I'm not wasting any more time on something like you and you can back to watching SpongeBob on TV and leave the adults here to our conversation. I could quote examples of gun hoarding and other statistics to you, but it would just be more pearls cast in front of pigs and water poured over the rock of your head and not sinking in!! Like all conservatives, you accuse others of what you are guilty of and judge others by yourself. I don't think that all people who disagree with me are Nazis, such as Buddhists and Hindus, but only you subtle and defacto Nazis called conservatives.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Gaudy Anne (guairdean), you are certainly a very IDIOTIC!!! little girl and project your own paranoia on to other people and imagine your own guns roaming around at night by themselves and your having to go out and chase them down the street!! You even put a fake picture of you as a guy beside your "name", to try to appear "manly" and "butch" to other people, but you're not fooling anyone and we all know that you are really a girl and listen to songs like "Pistol Packin' Mama" over and over again, while you play with your guns and shove them up your own butt!! Watch out, though, because many young girls, such as yourself, have shot their own asses off doing that!!! As I already told you, I could send you reports about people's stockpiling guns in their homes and other reports that contradict your views, but it would just be casting more pearls in front of pigs (or piglets, in your case) because you're too stupid to understand them and would think that they are recipes and put on your French maid's outfit and high heels for prancing around your kitchen and start cooking with them!!! As I told Marion G. Ceruti and John Owens, too, don't try to trade shots with me!! You're outgunned!! Write back when you want more of this!!!
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Guairdean
Reverend John, I'll let your rants speak for themselves. Your hate consumes you, I pray that you find peace and enlightenment.
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William Thompson
Let’s see, we see Saul looking on as St. Stephen, the churches original deacon, gets beat to death with rocks. This coming from the New Testament would lead one to believe Jesus was around. Yet, he did not pop in and impose “rock control”. Therefore, his position was mute at best even though he did not condone murder.
Many use Jesus to get us to see things their way. If you are pro “rock control” your Jesus would automatically want “rock control” in place right now. On the other hand if you are in favor of “anti-rock control” your interpretations of the Bible would be used to make your case.
The Bible sets out the Ten Commandments one of which is “Thou shall not kill”. No where does the Bible promote “rock control”.
Therefore, gun control is not the answer to the question we are posed with today. If we all follow the Ten Commandments there would be no call for any controls. Each of us would take responsibility and control our own thoughts, anger and actions.
So legally speaking we have a Constitution that guarantees “the right to bear and possess arms”. The gun itself was not illegal. It was that actions of the perpetrator that were illegal and as such unnecessarily took 17 lives.
Our Christian response should be of compassion and prayer. Our legal response should be of extreme indifference towards the perpetrator. Our laws should demand the death penalty.
My mother used to discover that money was missing from her wallet. To find out which of her 5 kids took it she would start beating me, the oldest, and work her way to the 4th, my brother, before he confessed. I asked her to start at the youngest and work her way up. She did and the stealing stopped.
My point here is that we were all getting punished for one man’s sins. I believe if Jesus was here today he would say “been there, done that”...not your job!
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Carl Elfstrom
Isn't St. Stephen a song by the Grateful Dead ? Are you sure you aren't confusing that with something you read in the bible ?
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William Thompson
I’m addition to being a minister with this church I am a Stephen’s minister at my church. St. Stephen was the original deacon at the original church early on.
Before Saul converted and became Paul he witnessed the death of St. Stephen. The rest is history.
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Carl Elfstrom
It's also a good song by The Grateful Dead.
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Carl Elfstrom
And you don't want to know my opinion of St. Paul ( or Paula as she was known in some circles ). Wasn't she the first closet queen mentioned in the New Testament, and now the idol of many young men who become closeted pedophile priests?
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Carl Elfstrom
We don't have deacons in our coven.
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Carl Elfstrom
The Bible doesn't mention a lot of things Jesus must have said during his lifetime, or much about what anyone contained in it ever said. That doesn't mean they didn't say a lot more. It just means they didn't have very good or thorough writers in those days. [ I could have done a lot better.]
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themiddleme
We're all punished for our own sins. We all die, and death is the wages of sin.
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John Owens
That is absolutely true.
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Guairdean
Since we all die, wouldn't it be true that death is the wages of life?
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Rev. John D. Partin
Guairdean, who was showing hate toward whom first? It was you showing hate toward me, even if you won't admit it!! Why shouldn't you be shown hate in return for your hate, in accordance with Scripture: "Whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap". Give hate to me and I'll give it right back to you! I never said that I'm a Christian minister. Your hate consumes you about guns and towards me and many other things and, as usual with conservatives, you merely project that on to other people!! That speaks volumes about you!! Keep your prayers for enlightenment and peace for yourself, since you need them much more than I do!!!
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Rev. John D. Partin
Besides, Guairdean, have you read John Owens' or Marion G, Ceruti's or other conservatives' or your own rants (if you were ever honest about it, which you won't be!!) here in the blog, as seen by everyone other than yourselves?!! The only time that you and other conservatives ever think that anything is a "rant" is when it is being said by a liberal, but you never admit to actually ranting yourselves, which is another one of your double standards!! "First remove the beam from your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye" and "Let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone".
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Hoggdogg
Amean jim we do kill more babys than guns everyone wants too blame the gun. How come we dont go and protest on how someone drink budwiser or liquor and kill some one or march about plan parent hood our great groverment took god out of the schools its sad this happen you can put the strongest law on guns it wont help they will find a way too get them gods peace
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The Doctor
The gun debate is not nearly as complex as some gun lovers want to make it out to be. Gun control works, many countries show ample success doing so.
The problem here is that certain types of men need a gun to feel capable. To feel equal. When I go to a grocery store the only men I see using the right to open carry are men so obese they use the little electric carts meant for elderly folks. Or old ptsd ridden disabled war vets who are one step from committing a hate crime against imagined terrorists.
To paraphrase a line. Guns make cowards and liars of every one. They make killing too easy, too impersonal. When you dont have to feel the flesh of your foe be penetrated, the hot splash of their blood upon your face, see the spark of life fade and the look upon their face as they know they die then it is not a fight for your life its a murder.
Our civilian and police are too heavily armed. We hesitate to define paramilitary groups like MS 13 as other then gangs because then our nation would have to recognize actual terrorism and how long its been active and how deeply rooted it has become. It would shatter the illusion of U.S.A. being all powerful and perfect.
Because that is the heart of the hypocrisy of the nationalist. THey want to espouse how great their ideal is, they want to say that is why people come here because its the BEST! Yet then complain about dangers imagined and ignore the real ones, so they can cling to their tin penis substitutes and little blue pills.
When the excuse is laws wont stop bad people is made its simply saying we need no laws at all because good people will be good anyways.
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Jim
While for the most part I have no idea what point you were trying to make. The comment about disabled war vets was uncalled for. This shows me you have no idea what you are talking about T'Keren. The so called countries that have gun control pretty much control everything in the country, including the people. I also have news for you. People are still trying to come to this country for the freedoms we have. Our forefathers were visionaries way beyond what man has done in history. The problem is we have let it get out of control with the PC. We need to go back to what our founders wanted and try again.
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Carl Elfstrom
Those of you who aren't satisfied with this country should leave. We don't need you. We have plenty of replacements. Many people will be glad to take your place, even if it kills them.
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themiddleme
All who want to kill should have to do so mano a mano. Close combat is best, not this sit in a tree and shoot at everything willy nilly and not even spilling my coffee frou frou. That takes no effort.
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John Owens
Tell that to a mugger or home invader. You are living in a fantasy world.
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Rev. John D. Partin
This person here (as does every other conservative gun nut!) evidently believes that all stopping of home invaders or muggers has to be lethal and not usually or ever just warding the person off or incapacitating him through the use of pepper spray or stun guns or other non-lethal means (and then the person escorted by police to jail or just running away). If that is correct, then these other methods of self-defense need to be eliminated altogether and just firearms used all of the time for self-defense. Yeah, right, these gun nuts aren't obsessed at all with firearms as the answer to all security problems, are they? (which is why they will always choose firearms over every other method of self-defense!!)!!
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Carl Elfstrom
T'Karen, we need laws so we can punish bad people for not living in accordance with what our government thinks is the right way for us to behave. By far most of them seem right to me. It really doesn't have a whole lot to do with being good or bad, except for when it has to do with crimes of violence, but has more to do with having high morals and ethics, or doing the right thing just because it's the right thing to do.
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John Owens
I think it is both amazingly stupid that if a person uses a truck to kill and injure a lot of people we blame the person driving the truck, and not the manufacturer of the truck, but if a person uses a firearm to do the same thing we blame the firearms. Then we have clamoring for "common-sense" control of firearms by people who think because of when the 2nd Amendment was written, it means we can only have and carry muskets (although they do NOT want us carrying muskets around), but the First Amendment means we can use computers and telephones and television, when all they had then were quills and primitive printing presses. If a policeman shoots an unarmed black man, we blame the policeman, but if a basket-case who grew up in social programs kills people, we want to blame the NRA and the gun-maker. When the Tsarnaev brothers set off the bomb in Boston, we didn't blame the company that made the pressure-cooker, or the people who sold it. I just think we are being played, here.
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katy wall
Cars and pressure cookers are not inherently designed for creating death. Guns are.
If you want to compare guns to cars how about we require classes, licensing, insurance, and semi regular renewals to be able to legally own and operate a gun just like we do cars. You can have all the guns you want as long as you prove you are capable of using them, mentally stable enough to go through the process, and able to take responsibility when something bad happens using your gun.
I already know you'll say that criminals will just have black market guns. Well, the black market is partially fueled by the different gun laws we have state to state. Many of the guns used for violence in Chicago are bought legally in IN and brought over state lines to be re-sold illegally.
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Kirk
If they are purchased with the intent to sell them to someone who cannot legally own a gun, then they are purchased illegally.
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Carl Elfstrom
Criminals aren't criminals until they are criminals. There's always a first time. They might have bought those guns before they became criminals.
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John Owens
William, you are saying that since gun control doesn't work, we need MORE gun control. You are refusing to see that guns are not the issue. Bad behavior is the issue, and most killers come from broken homes, PERIOD. Even in the ghetto, broken homes. Trying to replace families with Head Start and fathers with welfare is a large part of the problem.
I don't know what the answer is, because I know people will not admit that liberalism is contributing to insanity and cultural degradation. I mean, if you don't get that, look at New York, Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, L.A., New Orleans. All of your highest crime areas are controlled, have BEEN controlled for quite some time, by Democrats, pushing for so-called "progressivism." If that bullshit worked, those Democrat enclaves WOULDN'T HAVE CRIME. What you are saying, is that the whole country should be a huge Democrat enclave! You KNOW that cannot POSSIBLY work, because they cannot provide for themselves, and the terrible murder and robbery rates of those enclaves would be multiplied by the size of the country's population.
Those guns you are talking about being bought LEGALLY in Indiana (which I very seriously doubt. Do you have evidence?) are being bought and carried into Chicago ILLEGALLY by DEMOCRATS.
It's very simple. Just tell all the DEMOCRATS to stop buying guns. THEY are committing the crimes. Let the Police protect them.
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Jim D.
Actually, william, only about 20 percent of the guns used in crimes in Chicago come from Indiana. 40 percent are from Illinois, and the rest come from Mississippi and Wisconsin. Just an FYI.
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Rev. Troy Mason
John, if you put aside your ego and your ignorance for a second, you will plainly see that a gun used to kill someone is far, far different than a truck... Your examples make no sense. You are only arguing your side of each issue, to make it seem like the most favorable outcome is the one you want. You are the only person playing games here, with yourself.
I am glad that most of the country does not think like you. Your archaic, violent ways are going the way of the dinosaur, I am happy to see. I wish you well in your Golden Years.
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John Owens
Unrev. Troy, what the Hell do you mean, archaic and violent? How the Hell do you come up with that shit? Did I hit you with an expression? Did I smack you around with common sense and truth? What is archaic and violent? Do you even know what you are saying? I don't think so. You accuse me of "only arguing my side of each issue". Whose side are YOU arguing? Someone else's? If so, let THEM argue it. Who on Earth argues SOMEONE ELSE'S side of an issue?
That little leftist liberal snipe about me dying out, just shows what passes for compassion among you illegitimate pinkos. It also shows you are unable to think for yourself because all of you talk the same.
If this society has tremendous upheavals, WHICH YOU UTOPIAN SOCIALISTS ARE TRYING TO BRING ABOUT, I think my chances of outliving YOU are pretty good, because I have skills and knowledge and background and preparation for that, and you probably have NOTHING. Either way, I have every reasonable expectation of being around at least another twenty years unless I crash my motorcycle. Hopefully by then, you will have grown a brain, IF you survive.
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Rev. John D. Partin
Does this person really think that running over people with a truck and shooting people with guns should be treated the same way? Trucks don't go from room to room in a building or run up and down stairs to different floors looking for people to kill, as people armed with handguns or automatic or semiautomatic weapons do. Conversely, mass shooters don't very often do their business out in the street, but prefer the safety, for themselves (for a while, anyway), of being inside of buildings: schools, churches, theatres, malls. post offices, etc., where they are harder to shoot, unless, of course, they see a truck that they could carjack or hotwire and start running people over!! Also, most runnings over of people occur accidentally by hit and run drivers or sincerely remorseful people who wait for the police, whereas most shootings of other people occur intentionally. Between somebody's being able to, possibly, run you over with a truck, if you really can't jump out of his way in time, or somebody's definitely killing you with bullets from a gun (which are faster and more accurate than any truck or other vehicle), which would most sensible people and even these gun nuts want to take a chance with?!! As for the gun rights advocates objection to gun control laws that the criminals won't follow them and will always get guns, anyway, by that same token and "logic", criminals don't follow any other laws BECAUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS!!! and so if we shouldn't have gun control laws that criminals won't follow, we shouldn't have any other laws that criminals won't follow, either. Except that the consequences of criminals not following gun laws are far worse than their not following all other laws, since victims of robbery, assault and battery, extortion, blackmail, and even molestation and rape (as terrible and disgusting as those crimes are!!) are usually still alive afterwards, but aren't still alive after crazy killers have put two bullets in their heads!! Where there is life, there is still hope, but where there is no life, there is no more hope!! Gun control laws will deter, at least, some criminals and those on the verge of becoming criminals, which is the best that we can hope for with them, because NO!!! laws deter hardcore criminals from doing anything!! Then, they are for the police to deal with, the same as all other criminals are. After every mass shooting, all that we ever hear from the NRA and gun rights nuts are "DON'T TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS!!!". 20 children and teachers killed at Sandy Hook Elementary School!! "TO HELL WITH THAT!! DON'T TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS!!". 11 people shot in a synagogue in Squirrel Hill outside of Pittsburgh, PA!! "WHAT PART OF 'DON'T TAKE AWAY OUR GUNS' DIDN'T YOU UNDERSTAND?!!". And so on and so on, no matter how atrocious the crime is against innocent people!! These gun nuts only care about themselves and their rights and keep mindlessly parroting the same slogans over and over again, no matter what!!! They are just totally self-absorbed and self-centered and unfeeling people!!!! Nobody, again, is talking about taking away anyone's ability to defend himself or herself or right to do so, but only about keeping these weapons out of the hands of crazy people and getting them psychiatric help (not just one or the other, but a two-pronged approach) and yet the NRA and gun nuts refuse to even support that because, according to them, "their rights would be taken away if they can't have any guns that they want and all of them that they want" and keeping guns out of the hands of crazy people hits too close to home for them and is "infringing on their rights"!! Yet, they don't want people to consider them "obsessed with guns", even though they, quite obviously, are. If not, they will pass for it until the real thing comes along!!!
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Thomas Angelos
I have posted about this in the ULC's Ministers Fourm where we find the Captains watching over the others were working. Do we need weapons in the hand of those in our schools to protect our children? I have heard of some schools that allow trained employees carry a fire arm to help protect students
http://ulcministers.org/forums/topic/235/note-on-a-car
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Thomas Angelos
Nehemiah 4:16-18
From that day on, half of my servants carried on the work while half of them held the spears, the shields, the bows and the breastplates; and the captains were behind the whole house of Judah. Those who were rebuilding the wall and those who carried burdens took their load with one hand doing the work and the other holding a weapon. As for the builders, each wore his sword girded at his side as he built, while the trumpeter stood near me.
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Carl Elfstrom
Thomas Angelos, that sounds like a bad place to live. I bet it didn't happen in this country, at least not within our lifetimes. We're much too civil for that now.
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John Owens
Which is why bad things don't happen here. We are too civil.
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Carl Elfstrom
I wouldn't have trusted most of my teachers with guns. Some of them weren't wrapped too tight. And I used to make them so mad, at nothing worse than throwing acorns at their glass Christmas tree ornaments, that some of them could have shot me.
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John Owens
Most teachers are Democrats, so, NO, most of them should not be armed. Democrats are more likely to be taking pills, and more likely to snap. Do the research if you don't believe me.
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Carl Elfstrom
I'm sure you're telling the truth, John. My stepfather is a retired special education teacher. Although he's not a pill head he's been sober since 1983, and for plenty of good reasons. I don't know about his political association, but he has a stress prone personality type, and taught school in prisons.
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Dan Atatakai
John - I do not believe you, however I am open to your offering any empirical evidence or reliable sources which back your claims. If you cannot come up with any, however, I have no choice but to think you are nothing but a political bigot.
I do hope I am wrong.
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John Owens
atatakaidanjp, Here is a tiny bit of empirical evidence for you: Name the cities with the highest murder rates in the United States. EVERY ONE of them has a Democratic administration, and HAS HAD a Democratic administration for most of the last 100 years. Is that political bigotry?
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John Owens
Never responded, I see. Too much empirical evidence.
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Jim D.
John, you are correct that most teachers vote Democrat because the Democrat party is more supportive of unions. Republicans... not so much.
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John Owens
And we all know that unions are precursors to Communism, which is Totalitarianism.
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themiddleme
Why aren't we just arming the children? There is no age regulation on gun ownership according to the Second Amendment. Arm and train the children. They're the ones who are being targeted the most, so they should be allowed the defense. It can't be just a teacher. Arm everyone. That's the only way it will work. It's like. shoot them all and let God sort them out -- only it would be hand everyone a gun and let Darwin's chips fall where they may. All it takes is a good kindergartner with a gun to stop a bad kindergartner with a gun.
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Kirk
The Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 2261-2267 basically say it is required to defend your own life and the lives of others against an unjust aggressor, even to the point of using deadly force. They also justify the death penalty as a last resort to protect the innocent. The so called common sense gun laws I’ve read about, don’t make sense. They all benefit criminals that ignore the current laws and they would also ignore any future laws too. That’s why they are criminals, they ignore laws.
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Carl Elfstrom
Well Kirk, I'm glad I'm not Roman Catholic anymore. Can I see a show of hands of all of y'all who are with me. If it was up to me we'd torch the Vatican and crucify the pope!
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themiddleme
The Catechism only applies to the ROman Catholic Church and not Christians in general, but does it specify guns and also what kind of guns or weapons?
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Rev. Brien
Ok, here we go again. Let's deal with the "GOD" issue first. Now please, take a deep breath here as I realize this is going to mess with your reality and possibly blow the top off of your brain pan...ready? GOD does NOT involve himself, (or herself if you are so inclined), with things. Not anything. GOD involves his, (or hers), attention to your HEART AND SOUL. Understand? If not, I cannot explain it to you any other way. No grey area here. I can see you trying to disagree, just stop. Your point of GOD owning things is invalid at best and insulting to ALL faiths. Now that we have dealt with educating a bit about GOD, let's talk GUNS. Just for all of you I did an experiment. I took my firearm, in this case a 38cal revolver special just to see what kind of soul it had. I first laid it on the floor with a box of ammo. I then opened my front door. I told my pistol to load itself and shoot up the neighborhood. It did..............nothing. Just laid there like some kind of paper weight. I yelled at it. I insulted it. Still, nothing. It was not until I picked it up and put it away that it moved at all. I then did the same experiment with a hammer, just to see if the results would be different. Same results, it seems that the hammer refused to jump up off the floor too. Once again, it did not move until I moved it. The results seem to be very telling here. It takes HUMAN interaction for any tool to do anything. Guns are things. Hammers are things. Cars are things. Pipe bombs are things. It takes a HUMAN to get any of those things to do ANYTHING at all. Hmmm, so what is the common denominator here? HUMANS. People, like you and me and the rest of us. We always want to have dumbass arguments about things instead of dealing with the real problems of the mental health break down. Tools are NOT evil. People, humans, are the ONLY species that can claim that distinction. You can either chose to help solve the real problem, or you can simply be part of the problem. Your choice. Chose wisely.
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Carl Elfstrom
I had a next door neighbor whose cat would sometimes catch a mouse, play with it for a while, kill it, and leave it laying there. If that's not murder I don't know what is. I had a cat who would get pissed off at me and take a shit next to her litter box, on the floor. Humans are not the only bad actors in this world. It seems like The All would concern itself with all aspects of its mental creations, but nobody and nothing knows what goes on in the mind of The All, except for The All, although a lot of people seem to think they do.
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themiddleme
Do you think God is impressed with your guns and gun blather? We don't own anything in this world, anyway.
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John Owens
God is not the one trying to infringe on our constitutional rights.
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Carl Elfstrom
The ten commandments seem like common sense to me, and Moses spent plenty of time in those mountains to carve them all by himself. He only told the people a little white lie.
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Carl Elfstrom
And a little white lie is not nearly as bad as justifying the death penalty. I bet if the pope found himself nailed to a cross he' d very quickly change his mind about it.
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themiddleme
The Bible says that The Lord hates liars and lying is an abomination. That's pretty clear.
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Mike Wizard
It's a human right to protect oneself from harm by whatever means necessary that does harm to only those trying to harm us so of course guns should be a right. Gods don't have any problem killing people with various means at their disposal. If gods exists they certainly don't have any problem mass murdering everyone. Don't know if the question is worded correctly "God Given" all rights are taken by humans including right to life aka protect oneself from death.
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Jim D.
Personally, Mike, I prefer saying we have the right to protect ourselves given by the very nature of our existence. If someone wants to infer God or Creator out of that, fine with me.
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John Owens
If you accept that all humans are endowed by their Creator(s) with certain inalienable rights, and among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, then you must accept that the right to keep and bear arms is a natural extension of these. Now, governments are instituted among humans to secure these rights, but when they fail to do this, the rights of the individual to self-preservation and liberty dictate that the humans must necessarily be well-armed enough to adequately and effectively defend themselves, their freedom, and their property. There is no other point of view worth being considered.
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themiddleme
Then perhaps we should be strongly punishing BAD gun owners. The ones who have allowed psychos to access their guns and use them against innocents. Those gun owners should not get to walk away scot free. Well in a lot of cases they're killed, but why is there no backlash over those people allowing their guns to be taken from them so easily?
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John Owens
I would not be opposed to that, themiddleme. I also think we should harshly punish judges and parole boards who release dangerous criminals early. Negligence should always be punished harshly. Stupidity is the least punished crime in this country.
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Father Fred
Someone help me here. How are guns connected to religion? Passage please?
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Carl Elfstrom
Read chapter two verses one through thirteen of the first book of Carl.
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Carl Elfstrom
I don't care if God wants me to defend myself or not. I'm going to do it any way.
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Guairdean
The Bible speaks of various weapons. All of those mentioned were the common weapons of the time. There were no predictions of gun powder, lasers, or disintegrator rays. Just the common weapons, like firearms are today.
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Carl Elfstrom
God doesn't need to tell us about guns, we learned about them all by ourselves.
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Jim D.
They're not, Father. I'm sure some will refer to swords and iron rods, which are in the Bible. But guns and religion have nothing to do with each other, other than guns being the tools of religious zealots who use them to kill "infidels."
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Guairdean
Those guns can also be used by "infidels" to stop the zealots. "If someone comes to kill you, rise up and kill him first" -- Talmud
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John Owens
So, Jim, you're saying you'd be okay with everyone carrying swords. Is that right?
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Carl Elfstrom
Religion has its proper place like everything else, but there's a whole lot more to life than going to church and reading religious books. Religious books won't teach you how to cook, and even priests have to come up for air sometimes.
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angel
If Jesus had a gun, he wouldn't have knocked over tables in the synogage, he would have blown their heads off! So, if Jesus felt the need to stand up to the wicked by using force, I have no doubt he would support people using force to stand up and protect themselves... Think about it!
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Paula Shea
He also said not to resist violence and turn the other check. He said being a follower would be very hard and few would do it because of that, but to do as he did. He not only didn't resist violence, but allowed himself to be taken, beaten, and killed without resisting at all, so being a follower just sucks.
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Rick Williams
Very sad how people can quote some words Jesus said to his apostles as instructions to them and only them and NOT to the masses and apply those words as the gospel to all. Maybe it would be a good idea if most so called biblical scholars would actually take the time to learn what the ancient manuscripts actually say instead of repeating what the enemy of the Kingdom of God has twisted them to say and do.
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themiddleme
So basically you can take words like "life in abundance" to mean having every lovely material thing and enjoying it beyond measure, but if Jesus also said take the narrow road we're not supposed to actually DO that. Interesting.
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themiddleme
I bet you will find some Scripture that you will take to mean you can play with yourself all day, watch porn as much as you want, have 3 houses and 5 cars and turn your nose up at the poor who "don't deserve" help. I bet the Bible verses you choose to follow all somehow mysterious benefit you and allow things you like and enjoy.
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themiddleme
Jesus, being God, could have blown them into oblivion with weapons and powers we've never even imagined. He's GOD. He's All Mighty. He wouldn't need a silly gun. He could speak them into nothingness. The point being, He didn't.
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Josi
I think all our deities are rather shamed that we seem to be so fearful and afraid to compromise and unable to even speak rationally on this issue. The whole conversation is framed in fear. It drips from the lips of all who engage in it in vehement defense of or argument against. Until we are able to grow our spines back and face down what it is we are so afraid of, there will be no progress over this issue. And, I don't think anyone is willing to do that. Everyone is too busy being right and defending their righteousness.
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Burfeind
Does God love knives, hatchets, cars, opioids, crossbows, poisons, wars, etc? It’s the personal relationship that matters and conduct that flows from that relationship, or doesn’t.
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Howard Levinson
I am a gun owner, hunter, retired law enforcement and long time NRA member. The answer to gun control is there is no answer that will solve a multifactorial problem. Banning bump stocks, banning scary looking AR type rifles will have no impact on someone who is bat shit crazy. If you are hell bent on killing, you can buy anything you want somewhere illegally. There are those that think the hi capacity magazines for assault rifles should be banned. Perhaps they are unaware that many semi-automatic handguns have hi capacity magazines and can be just as deadly and easily used in a mass killing as a rifle. Then, they would call for a ban of semi-automatic pistols. Once again, most of the killings in the streets of our large cities are accomplished with those type guns which are not purchased legally. One cannot legislate morality or statutorily stop evil. If they succeed in raising purchase age of rifles to 21, that punishes those youngsters who joined the military and learned the proper use of weapons, should they want to buy a weapon at age 20. So, in my humble opinion, the only reasonable answer at this point is to make schools safer. Despite what you may think about killing people, as the NRA has said, the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good guy with a gun. There may be some teachers who could be trusted to be armed, but carrying a weapon all the time, training regularly and being able to shoot in high stress situations are skills that don't come easily. Logistically making schools safe will be a costly and difficult project. While the 'experts' continue to pontificate, there could very well be another shooting. Right now, the schools should become more efficient in identifying children at risk and take some kind of definitive action. They should be less afraid of hurting the feelings of parents and students by calling out a kid as unhinged. Perhaps then the emotionally disturbed kids can be dealt with before they become killers.
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Jim
Amen Howard. I to am a gun owner I have a number of guns from 9mm to shotguns. I'm retired military and I agree that if you can fight for your country you should be able to own a Gun. Same with having a beer but the legal age to drink is 21. The fear of most gun owners is that if we start allowing the government to put restriction on certain types of guns then when something else happens they will try and ban that weapon. For example lets say we ban the AR-15. The next school shooting is with a 9 MM with 15 round clips, so now the call will be to ban these weapons as well. Once the Government get into taking things away you will not get them back. Case in point taxes. Prior to WWI there were no income taxes, what was suppose to be a temporary situation became forever. There are taxes on land line phone that as of 1992 (last time I called the phone company about it) was a tax to fund WWII that was still being charged. When the West Virginia turnpike was being built the people of WV were told that the toll would go away once the TP was paid for. Well its Been about 35 years since it was completed and the government of WV is still charging a toll. Bottom line is that once the government gets control of something they will not let go. We forget that the government was founded by the people of this country and what we have done is start putting people in office that are full time politicians. It was supposed to be representatives from the local community from each state in the house. Everyone things that congressmen are corrupt except for there's. We need to bulldoze DC and start over. The Gun issue can have a solution that should please everyone for now, How about raise the age limit to 21 with the exception of active military. Maybe that will ease the tension for folks on the left. It will not solve the Gun issue one bit but its a bone that can be thrown into the mix.
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The Doctor
oh jim jimjim jeree you are woefully inaccurate and incomplete on your understanding of history. You also reek of the typical PTSD so many soldiers suffer from and very much meets the requirement of mental illness that should see you stripped of the right to own any weapon.
You clearly suffer from paranoid delusions and should be seeing a therapist weekly. Please go to your local VA and seek help.
Do you even understand that saying things like we need to bulldoze DC to the ground fits the definition of treason? A crime that warrants execution? The freedom of speech does not protect one encouraging acts of civil disobedience.
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Jim
If my understanding of history is wrong, How So. I am probably mentally ill, mainly to think that people like you actually have a brain. That you may actually understand logic. Hell that you may actually understand anything. as for the paranoid delusions I think my friend it is you who suffer from that. I have no fears of anyone coming into my home or doing any harm to me. I walk the streets with no sense of danger be it in my town or NYC. I'm sure you already see a therapist on a weekly basis that is why you recommend them. But hey to each their own. I'll pray for ya anyway.
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Anita Younger Mackey
It is Such a shame that people use the word of GOD to get other's to do the things that they want you to do. That is to me Bible Malpractice!! People have gotten away from the True word of GOD!! The Ten Commandments have not changed only man!! We need to get back too the True word of GOD!!
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Bill Fox
Rights are not discussed in the Bible. We can choose to obey or disobey God's Law. We will be blessed or cursed accordingly. Read Deuteronomy 28.
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espinja
I believe it's a natural right. A gazelle has evolved horns, a porcupine evolved quills, and humans evolved to walk upright, and develop both methods and technologies for self defense. If we didn't have a natural right, we wouldn't have naturally developed a propensity for survival. It's the reason we're here.
But enough about what I think. This came out just this week. I'd say it makes a pretty good case for both the natural and biblical right:
https://www.nationalreview.com/blog/corner/biblical-and-natural-right-self-defense-david-french/
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Steve E.
If all 18 to 20 year olds are too irresponsible to be gun owners, maybe they should also raise the voting age since so many of them voted fo Hillary. When you start compromising one right you start to compromise them all.
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Joe
Jesus was a teacher who was against ignorance and deceit. Gun control advocates constantly demonstrate how ignorant they are. They have no knowledge of types of guns, there intended purposes and people that use them. Proposed gun laws are always deceitful. They are sold with a sound byte like keeping terrorist from getting guns but always restrict legitimate use. A background check laws that was recently rejected in Maine contained language that would have made it illegal for a father to take his son hunting. So called assault rifle bans are a lie since assault rifles have never been available to the public. The NRA is not an independent entity it is the voice of millions of honest Americans. Would Jesus be for gun control? NO!
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scott r day
" A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state,the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
As stated in the text the militia is for the state to control, regulate,utilize, and so on. Tthe comma after the word state is important because its' use is showing to posterity that the Founders understood a state (country) must be able to protect itself ( the first part of the sentence ), but the second part of the sentence is to remind posterity ie. the future people and government what caused us to rebel. Confiscating guns, quartering troops, requiring documents etc. were some of theese things. We fought initially with what we had been able to hide from George and his troops. Does anyone understand how confiscation works or even begins. The two main ways this is accomplished is either going house to house, or here's an idea, lets create a database of registration so we (the government ) will know where the guns are when we decide to take them away. The second amendment is not there for hunters as that was the way back then that alot of people got their meat for food, its'main reason for being is in the second half of the amendment and concluded with SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED , to remind the powers that be that the Declaration of Independence IS NOT AND WAS NOT a one time deal but is and always will be relevant to those under an oppressive government. To paraphrase and combine some of the founders thoughts THE TREE OF LIBERTY IS NOURISHED BY THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS and GOD FORBID THAT THIS COUNTRY SHOULD GO TO MANY GENERATIONS WITHOUT A REVOLUTION. I do not mean and am secure in my belief that the founders who felt this way meant there should be a bloody revolution every 20 years or so but if it is necessary we will be armed.
As an aside to this, if we are to be secure from others as well as our own government it might be well to think about parity of arms. By this I mean a handgun against a tank is not really a fair fight is it? Therefore if the government has tanks, why can't we, a bazooka? an aircraft? a nuke? I know this may make some uneasy or maybe even nuts, but it is food for thought only, but also, how quick might NOKO or Iran or even Russia come to the (LETS GET RID OF ALL NUKES ) table.
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Br. Karsten Johansson
A gun can only be used to protect worldly things. If you are on the right track, you shouldn't be so worried about your own death and afterlife that you'd prepare to kill someone else to avoid it.
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espinja
Do you feel the same about the lives of your children?
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Jim
Well said Scott. Bottom line is less government intervention in all that we do legally.
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Mr Arrauko
In a nutshell guns are gods, the moment someone beats it's their God given right they just expose their own ignorance, for a God loving country they are more intent to ignore the fact that the second ammendment goes in violation of the first commandment, so what is it? God's or guns? Let's break it down wfor everyone... God (a non provable entity) gave Americans (inhabitants of a land not yet discovered) the blessing to own a gun (a weapon not yet invented) to protect them from a situation that statistically won't happen ?
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scott r day
The first commandment is misconstued as thou shalt not kill but is ( using the propper translation ) thou shalt not murder. God is provable. One only has to know that one does not know what, who, when, or any other thing about God but what they have been told or learned so far. Americans, guns, and any situation that to us, has not, does not exist to us at this time does not mean it hasn't, doesn't or never will. I say this because in the things we have learned or been told about God is that he is, was and always will be therefore to God, he always knew about americans, guns, and anyother thing one would care to discuss. Finnally, the idea that a situation won't statistically happen belies the FACT that those situations DO occur, and therefore: God has given us all the rights of being his creation ie: Life LIberty and the Persuit of happiness in which persuit most would like to maintain their life and liberty. thus the right to keep and bear arms, although written as an amendment to the constitution, is a right incorporated in the rights given by God as all Rights are. As an aside Rights are persnickity things as they start with oneself but end at ones nose ie: I can do what I want so long as I'm not forcing others to go along ( they can if they want to ). As soon as I force them to go along I have violated their rights, another ie: " You have to accept those who don't conform to soccial norms." this is only propper in the context of God saying Love thy neighbor but anyone else telling you that you MUST accept their belief is not their right to do so. The gun owners are not trying to make you own guns, but the gun control advocates are trying to either make you give up your guns or trying to take them and your right to own them away!
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The Doctor
The commandments are invalid, they are old testament which Jesus was very much against seeing that text as promoting violence and bloody sacrifice.
The 7 sins are more in line with what Jesus promoted. Now if you think you can take a life without wrath being in your heart you likely are mentally ill as only sociopaths are capable of killing while being completely disconnected from their emotions.
Or maybe your one of those that delude themselves that killing someone of another faith is an act of mercy and love by sending them to be judged by their god.
Either way its also important to note that murder is defined in ancient times as the act of taking the life of someone unable to shield themselves from the attack. This meant murder was just as much cowardly if you struck one down from behind, or while they lacked a shield to parry the blow of blade.
I think we all agree deflecting bullets is not really a practical thing unless we all possess super soldier serum and a virbrainium shield.
Even if both parties have guns no matter who shoots first and who wins, by the ancient definition of murder either will be guilty and committing a sin in the eyes of both old and new testament.
But keep in mind the Old testament and its rules specifically empowered the Hebrew people and permitted them to slaughter unarmed and helpless men women and children that where not worshipping their blood thirsty diety.
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John Owens
Sorry, T. I have to correct you here. Jesus said not to think He came to destroy the Law or the Commandments. Until Heaven and Earth pass away (which has not occurred), not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law.
The idea that He taught contrary to the Law is a Protestant invention. Neither He, nor Paul did that. If they had, it would have qualified them as false prophets. Just pointing that out.
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Jim
OK you got to help me understand this one. How does the second amendment violate the first amendment. As for god being a "non provable entity" you probably have never looked death in the face and come back. When this country was founded guns had been around a long time my friend. As for a situation that statistically wont happen we have had a bunch of wars that I'm aware of and there is a burglary every other minute or so, I would say that statistically there may be more need for a gun than you think.
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Rev Ned
This is a good question. Does the 2nd A. violate the 1st? I will look into it in the morning.
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The Doctor
Keep in mind that no true christian accepts any form of violence as acceptable. Only false christians preach violence as a reasonable response as the earliest forms of the new testament clearly outline any act of violence even that of self defense as sinful.
This lines of with Karmic field theory that states that killing is always negative karma even for eating or self defense. Killing is always wrong. Those who kill harm their own souls to do so. Thankfully I can buy my meat from the store and let those who slaughter the animals suffer that harm much as a samurai's lord let the samurai taint their own soul in service.
Enjoy that shitty next life you experience killers. Your blood soaked hands earned it. I would not kill my enemies personally. Id just maim them and leave them needing a bag to shiite in for the rest of their wretched lives.
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Anon Y. Mouss
The Karmic field theory can be disproven in two ways: 1. morality is relative, thus subatomic particles can't enforce it. 2. the theory of Karma is based off of the Old Testament theory that if something bad happens to you, it's God's punishment for something you did. That is not true, especially when humans do the bad thing.
you ever read paragraph 2265 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? it strongly promotes self-defense, as the 5th commandment(many peopel call it the first, someone called it the first AMENDMENT) translates into "thou shall not murder", not "thou shall not kill". these days, it is impossible for pretty much anyone to shield themselves from the attack. my definition of murder: to kill someone who has note done anything severely wrong(such as murder) or is trying to do so.
if a guy tries to shoot up a concert, is it better for him to be killed by an armed member of the audience by the time 5 people died, or for the murderer to kill over 50 people and flee before the cops can arrest him, only to start an expensive manhunt that does not find him? clearly the first one is better.
God decides when you go, not crazy murderers. that is why 1. it is right to defend yourself, 2. even if it means to kill the assailant, but 3. try to give him a chance to turn back before you kill him. If God decides now is the time for you to die, either he will ensure the murderer kills you, or he will have you die of natural causes.
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Christian
Yes.
Creator[creates(in the Creator's Image)]
People[chose to(stay alive)]
People want to own AR-15s for the exact same reason people want to ban AR-15s : THEY WANT TO STAY ALIVE AND STOP THOSE WHO WOULD HARM THEM.
Nation - States have nukes, nerve gas, city destroying artillary, tanks, jets, and now, tank like and flying drone type killer robots. Soon to be powered by A.I.
This is true problem : Nation states must all disband their military and police forces and just live in peace and nonviolence.
Crime is illegal, so no one should commit crimes any longer.
This would be a better and more peaceful world.
Unfortunately, that is not the planet we live on.
And if it was, such totalitarianism would require extreme force, to enforce, total disarming of all human populations. Not even rocks or sharp pointy sticks.
It would have to be a nurf foam rubber world, with all people strapped down wearing big fluffy soft mittens.
The way to defeat violence is with social justice, meaningful membership and inclusion for all, useful work and strong social bonds and family.
People who have many loving connections rarely wish to harm their family or themselves by criminal acts.
So defending one's self and home becomes a point of contact question.
If attacked, you can run away. But if you can't run fast, you still die.
So if attacked you need to stop it. Mild force would be best: a taser. or pepper spray... But that does not always work. Brute force is the last choice, but still a choice.
If the attacker thinks this is going to kill them, they may decide not to attack.
But millions of murdered babies do not own AR-15s. Abortion kills millions and millions of people.
So a more thoughtful question is :
WHY is murder illegal ?
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James
Tazer? Run? Pepper-spray? This may be great for "the moment". But now, Someone walk that street, that path or alley the next day. The perpetrator will be more prepared to take down the next victim.
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James
Jesus get involved in gun ctrl? No matter what weapon is employed... Guns or $$$. Jesus tipped over the money changers / tax collectors tables. $$$ is not bad, neither are guns. Money not make ppl greedy & selfish. Guns not kill? PEOPLE do. Whatever the tool may be... The user is what makes the tool what it manifests.
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Lara Craft
A gun safe is really a defensive and secure stockpiling, guns, also, or shots for all firearms. you shouldn't be so stressed over your own passing and the great beyond that you'd get ready to murder another person to keep away from it.
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Larry Copeland
Did Jesus say something about getting a sword the weapon of the day? Today its the Gun for our weapon of the day?
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John Owens
Some lib artist posted a meme on Facebook, of Trump shooting himself in the foot with a revolver, WHICH WAS EJECTING SPENT BRASS!!! This just illustrates how ignorant libs are. They only know what they are told to know.
In this country, owning a gun is part of Our constitution
And Christ taught peace, not weapons of war.
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. Luke 22:36
Thank you for this.
It states swords, not guns.
It would have been very strange if it had said guns since they didn't exist at the time. The sword was the high tech military armament of its time.
"Take the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God." - Ephesians 6:17.
Luke 22:36 is referring to a Bible, not a literal sword...
A pacifistic, loving Son of God would never, ever say 'take up a weapon' of any kind. This is the danger of taking solitary verses out of context.
It even gives it away in the "...likewise his scripture - and he that has no Sword [of the Spirit] ((which is The Word of God)), let him sell his garment and buy one...".
The Word of God is more important than clothing. I doubt a sword can ever be thought of as the same.
~TM
I've heard this argument before, and it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The Bible hadn't been published and the Torah wasn't a book that was carried around by the common person. It was held in reverence in a sanctuary. Wandering around with one under your arm would have been close to blasphemy and protecting it from the elements would have been nearly impossible. Jesus and his disciples were considered criminals and the authorities (religious and otherwise) were out to incriminate him, put him on trial, and convict him. They were also about to set out on a journey that would put them in danger from the criminal element. Christ advised his followers to be prepared to defend themselves, but that travelling as an army was unnecessary. Two swords should be enough of a show of force to prevent an attack. He knew that they couldn't withstand an assault from a Roman military force, but he knew that the common criminal would seek an easier target if some of the disciples were armed. Jesus command to be armed was meant to protect his people. I believe that message (like many of his other messages) is just as valid today as it was then.
Yeah. If all Christians had believed like Troy here, none would have survived until now.
John Owens, That statement does not make sense...
Buddhists are in fact practicing pacifists, yet they still exist.
Please think about your reasoning and answers before you post egotistical drivel that is only aimed at causing negativity and conflict. Please don't make me Report you at this website...
Unrev. Troy Mason, I'm sorry. I was speaking of True Christians, as in, Fox's Book of Martyrs. Still, Buddhists also go to war. Maybe you have heard of a conflict called WORLD WAR II? Perhaps you should take your microcephalus out of your comic book before you try to fence with your intellectual superiors.
The whole culture of Bushido and the Samurai was immersed in Buddhism.
Stan Ronin Smith, here are some clarifications and explanations of Luke 22:36. https://radicallychristian.com/luke-2236-re-examined-sell-your-cloak-to-buy-a-sword https://ca.thegospelcoalition.org/columns/ad-fontes/jesus-tell-disciples-buy-swords/
I don't comment much here, but on this I must and I will. Well it is true back in the days when the Holy Bible comes from they did not have firearms like we do today, but they did take up arms. The fall of Jericho, it says this. The Lord told Joshua how to capture the city of Jericho. Joshua called the priests and the people and gave them their orders. To the priests he said: "Take up the ark of the covenant and let seven priests carrying seven trumpets of rams' horns march before the ark of the Lord." And to the people he said: "Surround the city, and let those that are armed march before the ark of the lord."
Quoting from the bible is part of the problem Ohm. It is a book so open to interpretation it should never be used to provide answers related to laws / constitutions. Muslim and christian have many similarities, and look how they treat one another when it comes to 'problem solving'. One cannot take any scripture literally, as many do, and then end up doing some very bad / strange things.
He can hop off a cross and also bounce back from the dead.
For the rest of us, we don't know how to do that. Neat trick though.
Sure would save on hospital and burial costs. YOU ARE HEALED.
But since we are not so mighty, we must protect and defend our families from others that would harm them.
One life (at a time) is all we get as far as we know.
If you know how to raise the dead, please tell us.
Resurrection technology would negate the need to defend your life, as you could always just pop right back up.
Solve crimes quickly too: "Who killed you? um, it was Bob. But I feel much better now. Thanks !"
Even so, being immortal can not stop someone from kidnapping people and tourturing them endlessly, just for fun...
So back to question 1:
Someone really enjoys hurting people and stealing their stuff.
How do you convince criminals to stop committing the crimes they enjoy doing so much ?
That takes moral education that the individuals will believe in and follow.
...and Jesus said "I come with a sword"...
Barry - Providing you are a member of a "well regulated Militia", according to the Second Amendment.
10 U.S.C. § 311 Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard. (b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.
As a side note, the maximum age and gender specification are considered invalid. Age and gender discrimination are not legal. The rest still applies.
Regulated means trained, not legislated out of existence. It's hard to be trained when possession of the items required to be a militia are confiscated.
Well said, Guairdean.
The Constitution states we need a militia to maintain a free sate. It then states the right of "the People" to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. I Can think of no other meaning for "the people" than you and I. I believe as far as God is concerned we all have the right to defend ourselves and of course our families. Guns are just one part of the equalizing process of that defense. Finally, if you cannot realize the problem with only the government owning guns then you have slept during the last century. From Nazi's to Soviets and from Khmer to Castro history shows a defenseless people are soon slaughtered by their own government. In the last century governments made private gun ownership illegal then promptly murdered about 150 million civilians.
The tool is not the problem. The wrong people possessing the tool is. Taking guns away from people who did not do anything wrong is itself wrong. Every time there is a shooting the leftists among us want to take the firearms away from everybody who did not commit the crime. I own 32 firearms and have a CCP. Whys on earth would you think I'd give up my guns? The fastest way to have a revolution in this country is to try and confiscate 350 million guns from 120 million people. It's no joke folks, gun owners will not tolerate it.
The second amendment is the guarantee for the other nine in the bill of rights. If they can take away our gun rights they can take away all our rights. Don't you forget it.
Hoagie, The country's forefathers certainly had our best interest in mind when they created the second amendment. I believe in protecting our rights under the constitution.however I can't help but believe that they expected us to have at least an ounce of sense about it. Our President has been very vocal about his support of much stricter gun laws on several websites people should listen to along with his very well publicized support of abortion. Using the logic that more guns in the hands of 18 yr old kids is the same as saying the answer to the heroine problem is to protect the rights of kids to buy it. I am a lifelong Christian Republican and I can assure you sir that the God I pray to doesn't need The NRA or ANY politician to advance his agenda. Guns ownership among Christians has grown from a privilege to an obsession. When 75 percent of the congregation is packing heat(most of whom have never been on the receiving end of an assault rifle)and someone accidentally discharges a weapon only bad things can happen. Perhaps all of us older people should listen very closely to the kids from Florida who were shot at, 17 being killed. They are our future leaders. They want change and unlike our cowards in congress they don't fear the NRA. Law abiding people who properly purchased and registered their weapons have never faced any unlawful government gun confiscation issues. What I think is going on sir is that you are waving the Bible in one hand and the Constitution in the other and you don't know jack **** about either one! Have a good day sir.
"Law abiding people who properly purchased and registered their weapons have never faced any unlawful government gun confiscation issues."
This is not even remotely true. You can read an excellent article on the issue here. http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/kopel-catastrophic-consequences.htm
Guairdean, I read the article you referenced. Very informative. I'm bookmarking that one. Thank you.
Ageed
AND "well-regulated" does not, did not mean, "regulated" as in the big government, bureaucratic sense, but well-trained and well-armed.
"well-trained and well-armed"....So then you support mandatory weapons training classes prior to buying any firearm, correct?
John - How many firearms owners have gone through actual firearms training? How many of them have proven to any major agency to show they qualify to handle such weapons?
What agency would that be? There is no such agency. When I was a boy, all boys and many girls were trained by their fathers, uncles, scoutmasters, and some school-teachers. We believed in self and home defense at that time. To this day, MY family will invite friends and we will barbecue and do target practice or shoot skeet. For combat, we do paintball.
John - Such an agency could include a local police organization/agency, like local police, sheriff or even Highway Patrol/State police agency. Something to the equivalent of the Department of Motor Vehicles qualifies and tests drivers of automobile, an agency for qualifying and testing firearms owners and users.
I'm all for it, but that would mean people would have to stop screeching and wringing their hands about gun control. I control MY guns.
The only proof I have to provide is proof of identity, proof of state residence, and proof of no criminal or mental illness history. That's it, and that's all it should be. The moment you have to prove "proficiency," you are at the mercy of someone that may not like guns, may not like you, or may not like the color of your shirt... whatever. It's no different than trying to get a concealed carry license in a "may issue" state. If the local LEO doesn't like citizens with guns, nobody gets a license (except, of course, his family and friends). In a "shall issue" state, the local LEO has a specified amount of time to find a reason you are prohibited under the law. If he/she can't, you get your license.
NO! Why do we keep ignoring the fact that the Constitution said owning a gun was for a "well regulated militia" At that time, we had no standing armies. Now we have way too much in the way of standing armies and we certainly do not need to add a citizens militia.
I'm sure the Germans felt the same way before WW2, and the Russians did before the Bolshevik Revolution. A militia by definition is a local organization. If not, it is no longer a militia. We cannot depend on the Pentagon to rescue us in time of trouble, and as we have just seen in the Florida school shooting, we cannot depend on the police either. The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness means I have an absolute right to have at my disposal the wherewithal to defend my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
How does owning a gun protect you? If gun safety rules are followed, as they should be, the ammunition is locked in a separate safe and room from the gun, with a trigger lock, that is locked in a safe. I don't think that the person who is supposedly trying to hurt you will wait for you to open the first safe, then go into the other room, and open the second safe, remove the trigger lock, and load the weapon.
Those rules were made up by people that don't have to live in the real world. Locking up firearms and ammunition in separate rooms is fine on paper, but in the real world a loaded firearm in an easily unlocked (by the owner only) safe is best. A trigger lock is only useful if the weapon is accessible to the untrained. Pushing three buttons and turning a knob unlocks the safe where I keep my bedside gun. In an emergency, I can access it and defend my family. Rules about separate rooms and safes, and trigger locks on guns in safes were created by frightened children that don't understand the real world.
You must be from California.
Yeah. Only an idiot or a person with a house full of small children does all of that. A gun not ready to fire is a club.
The constitution is a good document in a democracy, but a democracy is not God's choice of government. He first wanted a theocracy. But the people refused and chose Saul as king, instead of choosing God as King. Therein lies the world's problems