Muslims were outraged to see Muhammad defamed in such a public manner, and local Islamic leaders are now calling for the billboard to be removed.

A controversial billboard overlooking a busy highway in Indianapolis has drawn mounting criticism from the area's Muslim community. The message makes a sarcastic (and not so subtle) reference to the Prophet Muhammad, calling him the "The Perfect Man". Beneath this nickname, the billboard lists a number of controversial assertions about the prophet. The checklist includes damning claims that Muhammad "married a 6-year-old" and "beheaded 600 Jews in one day."

The creators of the billboard also included a slogan at the bottom that reads "Educate Truthophobes" an apparent play on the word "Islamophobia."

Muslim women praying in a mosque Reactions from the Muslim Community

Many Muslims were outraged to see Muhammad defamed in such a public manner.

Rima Shahid, a leader of the Muslim Alliance of Indiana, explains that the message was especially offensive because it was displayed right at the beginning of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

"At any point this would have been highly offensive, but we're in the holiest month of our faith, when we slow down and reconnect with our communities," Shahid said. "It perpetuates hate," she added. "It perpetuates misconceptions about Islam, and it makes our neighbors think we believe things that just aren't true."

However, not everyone was taken off guard by the sign. By now, many Muslims are used to seeing or hearing messages targeted at their religion. Farial Khatri, of the Islamic Society of North America, was not in the least surprised. "We've seen them in New York and several others cities on billboards as well as other transit ads".

Khatri acknowledges that the 1st Amendment can be a double-edged sword. "We do support free speech," she noted, even though doing so means enduring messages "rooted in bigotry."

Billboard Owner Speaks Out

As it turns out, the billboard is owned by a local businessman named Don Woodsmall. He defends the decision wholeheartedly, explaining: "I was convinced that each point listed on the billboard was historically and factually true. I would encourage others to do their own research to verify the veracity of each and every point."

Woodsmall also fired back at those who want the billboard taken down: "it is interesting to note the Muslim community knew exactly who it was referring to. The truth is a powerful weapon."

Fact Checking the Billboard

Controversy aside, what about the substance of the billboard? Are the assertions true? Let's break them down one by one:

1. "Married 6-year-old"

This is an often quoted and controversial claim about Muhammad. Historical texts (such as the Sahih Bukhari) show that Muhammad married a young girl named Aisha when she was just 6 years of age. The marriage was consummated when she was 9 and he was 53. While some Muslim scholars argue Aisha was a teenager before she married Muhammad, most sources of record say otherwise.

Shackles used for slavery 2. "Slave owner & dealer"

There is a wide consensus that Muhammad owned slaves. However, his reasons for doing so are disputed. One line of thinking holds that Muhammad would buy slaves in order to free them and set an example for others to follow. But many historians allege that the relationship was far from innocent, and that Muhammad even took female captives as sex-slaves.

3. "Rapist"

Our research didn't uncover any evidence to back up this specific claim. However, if claims #1 and #2 are legitimate, then chances are #3 could be as well.

4. "Beheaded 600 Jews in one day"

This claim is historically accurate. In 627 A.D., a Jewish tribe known as the Banu Qurayza betrayed Muhammad. In retaliation, Muhammad gave the order to kill all the men in the tribe. The exact numbers are unknown, but historians estimate that between 600-800 Jews were beheaded by Muhammad's forces in a single day.

5. "13 Wives, 11 at one time"

Islamic holy book the Qu'ran

There is significant historical consensus among scholars that Muhammad did indeed have 13 wives in total, and at one point was married to 11 different women.

6. "Tortured and killed nonbelievers"

We were unable to make a determination on this claim. Perhaps our readers can offer some insight. What we do know: the Qur'an contains over 100 verses that reference committing violence against non-Muslims. Muslim scholars say insist these quotes are taken out of context, but from a neutral perspective such language can certainly be interpreted as an endorsement for attacking those who go against Islam.

The Pursuit of Peace

Truthfulness aside, it's worth considering the efficacy of the billboard's message. Will it help to promote unity, understanding, and peace? Not likely. But critics of Islam point to the terrible acts of violence committed in the name of religion and say: "how can we have peace when this continues to happen?"

One last interesting note: the Muslim Alliance of Indiana is currently raising money to erect another billboard nearby the current one. They say it will be dedicated to spreading a message of peace and kindness.

**What do you think of the "Perfect Man" billboard? Do you find its message offensive?


  1. Joe Stutler's Avatar Joe Stutler

    Who wrote this drivel?

    1. Paul D Gilbert's Avatar Paul D Gilbert

      Are you saying this post is is innaccurate, irrelevant, or what?

      1. donald nelson (@dn3664)'s Avatar donald nelson (@dn3664)

        More love and less hate

        1. Dr. Michael Glick's Avatar Dr. Michael Glick

          This has been an interesting thread to follow. I must say that I do not understand why the Muslim community has not spoken out more forcefully against the radicals. It makes it look like they support them. There are multiple sites around the world where Muslims clash with non Muslims. While it appears to be true that historically religions can perpetrate crimes (the Inquisition) none are doing so today in the manner and to the extent of Islam. Of course there is intolerance in many places; but I admit that given the state of Islam today it is not unreasonable for ordinary people to be frightened of having more Muslims come to this country. There seems to be a sizeable part of that community that has ill will or worse toward Christians and Jews. Isreal has many Muslims among its citizens (and they enjoy many rights - though there is discrimination); but Muslim countries have all but expelled the Jews and most Christians. Egypt is 10 per cent Coptic Christians and they are hated by many of the Muslims and their churches attacked. There is a difference in today's religions: Islam seems to be the most intolerant.

          1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            I concur, Doc Glick. Good post.

          2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            It seems delusion and self-imposed ignorance knows no educational boundaries, "Dr". Glick. You say, "While it appears to be true that historically religions can perpetrate crimes (the Inquisition) none are doing so today in the manner and to the extent of Islam."

            Let's set aside the barbarity of Bronze Age nomads and the Dark Ages and stick with modern history. Here are two examples. Denial that they are factual is clear evidence of state indoctrination and delusion.

            Germany was one the most Christian nations on Earth in the 20th Century. Atheists and other "infidels" were not imported to commit atrocities like the Holocaust. They were perpetrated by Christians, fired up with nationalism and religious fervour ("the Jews killed Jesus") wearing Gott Mit Uns belt buckles. The worst of them avoided prosecution for their horrific crimes thanks to the "rat lines" and collusion of the Christian churches.

            Millions of innocent men, women and children have been, and are being, slaughtered in the GWOT, which was triggered by another false flag attack, accepted by a gullible, dumbed down population. The majority of those doing the killing are Christians from today's most Christian country. The ability to over ride basic human decency and conscience is often a combination of bigotry, racism and the cultural propensity for violence, all rampant in today's America.

            And... "There seems to be a sizeable part of that community that has ill will or worse toward Christians and Jews." I'm not sure where you live, Doc, but were it in any of the many countries have are being bombed and terrorized without mercy, I guarantee you would also have more than "ill will" against the aggressors. I'd like to post a few pictures of the dead children the GWOT has produced, but can't do it on this forum, so you can avoid them and carry on in good conscience. The GWOT is not WWII. All subsequent "wars" have been immoral and without honour, glory or victory. It's outright savagery carried out by cadres of dupes, blinded by the flags they're waving, on behalf of war profiteers and psychopaths who sit in plush boardroom laughing at how easy it is to control their minds and emotions of the masses. It's pitiful.

            If you're an M.D., here's an excerpt from the Hippocratic Oath .... "I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm."

            It's not surprising that Owens concurs. People promoting hatred and spewing bigoted ignorance to fuel it are the reason we all have to live in a savage world. I offer a daily apology to the 8 million+ species we share the earth with on behalf of my "highly evolved" species. Our just punishment is well underway.

            And, yes, I do know the definition of "bigot"... "a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who does not like other people who have different beliefs or a different way of life"

          3. Frank Yahoo's Avatar Frank Yahoo

            What was stated on the billboard is a FACT and true, so why is it an insult? People mock Jesus every day in the US and it wasn't a big deal. It was a big deal because Mohammad cannot be insulted. It is true that there is NO democracy in any nation around the world where majority are Muslims. Christians and Jews are always targeted and considered 2nd class citizens with 2nd class rights in all of these nations.

            1. Akkari Wassim's Avatar Akkari Wassim

              It's a fact according to who? the fact is your human God received kisses and hair massage from a prostitue. the fact is your human God ordered dashing babies on rocks. the fact is the rapist according to your human God can buy his victime and marry her. the fact is your book is full of porn! the fact is the young mother of your God got raped by a 93 years old Jews and that relationship resulted in your God birth.

          4. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            I disagree Dr. Glick that Islam seems to be the most intolerant. It is like I said before, the media will present whatever information is going to get the ratings and have people watch.

            I am not saying that there are not countries that have their own hatred towards Christians and Jews, but they receive the same kind of information. They also do not have a constitution that protect a persons right to their religious beliefs.

            Muslims in this country are afraid to speak out or drawn any more attention to themselves. I did read an article once, and I will try to find it again, that basically said that the people who hate the Muslim radicals the most are Muslims.

          5. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Joanne, you need to look at Muslim majority countries and enclaves. They definitely ARE the most intolerant. The only way they will remain tolerant in THIS country is if they stay a very small minority, and are FORCED to follow OUR laws and tolerate our customs. No one says they should become Christians or atheists or anything else, but they cannot be allowed to dictate to us how to dress, what music to play, where to walk our dog. It is kind to be charitable toward people who are different, but it is naïve to think they will automatically reciprocate that kindness, particularly when history shows they do not.

          6. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            I understand the premise John but as a Christian majority country we are just as intolerant of them. No one is telling us how to dress or what music to listen to yet we judge and treat them as outcast because of how they dress....

            You are correct that not all people we extend a hand to are going t accept it graciously but it has to start somewhere and with someone for there ever to be a change.

          7. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            I'm afraid you do NOT understand the premise Joanne. We are NOT just as intolerant as they are. We do NOT make them pay extra tribute for being Muslim. We do not single them out for rape or beatings. We do NOT forbid them to worship or speak to others about their religion. We do not behead, torture or burn them. Please inform yourself.

            As I said, it is nice to feel kindly toward those who are different, but we are to also be as wise as serpents (whatever that means). We are not to wish them harm, but it is OUR responsibility, not theirs, and not God's, to protect one another. If you have no concern for your own well-being, that is your privilege, but you must be concerned for your neighbors and kin at the same time. Islam is not a friend to Christianity, and the children of light should have no fellowship with children of darkness.

          8. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            John as you know, try not to just assume information so I do try to keep myself informed. Like I have said over and over we can simple assume the media explains it all or understand that the same kind of hate is spewed on all sides and they have been taught to view Christianity as the darkness....its a cycle of learned hatred, however heinous and malicious crimes ARE being carried out against Muslims here in the US and the incidents keep becoming increasingly evil and more often.

            What is naive is assuming that we have all the information or that somehow they have not been taught the same fear and hatred towards Christians as is being taught about them here.


        2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          Frank, I agree, no religious leader is same from the mockery of those who try to discredit anything that is not in a direct line with their own belief system. However, I fail t see the need for such a billboard if not to spread hate and fear. It is not written in way as to teach anything regarding the faith or religion, albeit maybe true, not a representation of the people its trying to ostracize.

          Break it down and if, as a Christian you lived in a country that already made it hard to follow your faith for fear of harm and you passed a billboard on the way home to your children that stated....

          -Conceived the illegitimate son of an unwed mother -preformed acts that, if true, should have him labeled a witch -Jewish, yet turned all his followers against other Jews -Had a relationship with a prostitute etc.....

          Again, this is now not to in any way speak ill of Jesus, but any "facts" can be turned and presented in a way that does not then speak the truth or meaning of the faith. I have said before it anyone can give me one example of how this could possibly be meant for anything ut the spread of fear and hate I would love to hear it. Whether these are true facts or not this is in no way an education billboard meant to inform for anything else.

      2. CW's Avatar CW

        No he is saying spreading a message of peace and kindness or even trying to pursue it with and group that even hate their own is stupid. Islam not a religious order, but a brain washing hate group. Would you call a Nazism religion? But all the same concepts and action are called for by Islam order in their religious book. Don't pussy foot around with this ideology. Hate groups that claim church status should not be allowed to flourish or be protected. people turned a blind eye to scientology, see where that led. We should be banning together to remove this evil called Islam. Rooted in bigotry, hell no, it is not racism to fight the followers of the Quran tooth and nail. Nor is it racist or Defamation of Muhammad by listing the truth. By the way in this article says it can't find record of rape, what do people call sex with a 9 year old. The law calls that rape in every state. In every mosque in american there are fliers calling for the deaths of all non believers. We turned a blind eye when they stayed in the middle east. But now they come here refuse to assimilate and try to enforce their religious laws on our country citizens. Either they blend and don't reject us or they can get out of the country and go back the war they started at their own country,

        1. Travis N Montgomery's Avatar Travis N Montgomery

          The same can be same of Christianity. Remember the crusaders, kkk, african slave trade all in the of religion the christian religion. Hate sloves nothing, tolerance, love and understanding. Try it ?

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            and that is the problem right there with homosexuality. if it only affected that group. that generation.. they could take responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences.. but the kids get brought into it .. saturday afteroon street parades.. and conversations at school.. what does your two mommies/daddies do. and introduction to an alternative sexuality before their time. some would call this predator behavior. priming the children.. seeking their approval ?? like wtf ?? i dont have problem with gay people. i have friends. but we arent talking my book club... we are talking god s book club. and he says no. my book club is ok. i dont have children present that they are influencing. its an adult book club.

            kkk. they influence their kids. if we did not know that to be the forst thing about a person though.. would it not be easier to offer grace sometimes we learn the "faults" first.. but really on that pretense. shoudl we just not stay away from all people ?? or just keeping seeking the wrong in them. first from our perspective.. and if that doenst work.. lets bring god into it.

          2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Add Deuteronomy 13 to your list, Travis.

          3. Rebecca Sandoval's Avatar Rebecca Sandoval

            Christians are not killing non-believers, nor do they have many wives or marry children, nor do they castrate little girls. Muslims have been killing Christians and Jews for 1400 years and are still at it! Christians are not trying to take over a country and trying to convert you and if not successful they kill you . Christians assimilate with the people in the country they live in. No way can you compare Christians to Muslims. Total opposites, one good (Christians)the other evil (Muslims).

          4. Karma's Avatar Karma

            You took the words right out of my mouth!

          5. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Keep spreading misinformation and fear if you like, Beca, but there will be escalating blowback and consequences. Both you and Karma need a mind enema.

            "Let us leave aside for the moment the fact that since 9/11 not a single American has been killed in a terrorist attack by a citizen from the countries on this list. The reality is that an American is at least twice as likely to be shot dead by a toddler than killed by a terrorist. In 2014 88 Americans were shot dead, on average, every day: 58 killed themselves while 30 were murdered. In that same year 18 Americans were killed by terrorist attacks in the US. Put more starkly: more Americans were killed by firearms roughly every five hours than were killed by terrorists in an entire year. It is unlikely that scrapping a rule requiring extended background checks for gun purchases by some social security recipients suffering from mental illness will improve the situation."

            "In 2002 I interviewed the late Maya Angelou about her views on the 9/11 terror attacks. “Living in a state of terror was new to many white people in America,” she told me. “But black people have been living in a state of terror in this country for more than 400 years.” Excerpts from the Feb. 8, 2017 article by Gary Younge appearing in the Guardian.

            Romans 12:19 “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

            Luke 6:31New International Version (NIV) "Do to others as you would have them do to you."

          6. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

            DUMP the IGNORAMUS tRUMP, GOD is GREAT so is AMERICA......

          7. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Beca, I will have to disagree....all through history Christians have been killing non-believers....

          8. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            If Christians plan to survive, they will sooner or later begin anew to kill non-believers, out of necessity.

          9. Minister Bill's Avatar Minister Bill

            Travis N Montgomery, before you falsely accuse Crusaders of being equal in evil to Islamists, you should study the history of what caused the crusades and the crusader knights to kill their Islamic enemies that had militarily invaded their country's and sought to occupy them,....and they did occupy them. Some of them like Spain were occupied for 300 years by the Moors (Islamists). Look it up and educate yourself on just exactly WHAT caused the Crusades. Don't be like Obama in his speech, wherein he denied historical fact, and said something to the effect of...."Christians shouldn't get on their high horse, Christians did a lot of bad things, REMEMBER THE CRUSADES". That is paraphrasing what Obama said, but is accurate to his accusation that the Crusaders were somehow evil. In making that remark, Obama completely ignored WHY the crusades and crusaders formed and drove the Islamists all the way back to their countries in the middle east. What Obama conveniently ignored is the the Crusades were a reaction by European Christians and knights who's country's had been militarily invaded by Islamists who had invaded large parts of Europe and via conquest and terror, ruled and occupied large sections of European countries, until after many many years and decades of putting up with that, the Christians formed armies (Crusaders) and struck back against the Islamists, eventually driving them all the way back to their middle eastern countries and then the Crusaders rightly occupied Jerusalem in an effort to ensure Islamist invasion never occurred in Christian Europe again. The problem is the Crusaders eventually stopped their occupation of Jerusalem and left Jerusalem.

            A Christian "Crusade" war against the Islamists was created when the Islamists invaded Europe and actually took over in various places in Europe, and then persecuted, murdered, raped, and did all manner of evil against Christians. Except for the northern part of Spain, the Islamists all but conquered and ruled Spain for 300 years, before El Cid and other Christian knights finally drove the invading and occupying Islamists out of Spain. But we still see that Islamist influence today in Moorish (Islamist) architecture (among other left over medieval middle eastern influences we still see in Spain today) and the forever ruined bloodline of pure Spaniards.

            Prior to the Islamist invasion of Spain, the Spanish people looked a lot like other Europeans. White skin and many Spaniards also had blonde hair and blue eyes. For the 300 years that Islamists occupied most of Spain, those Islamists raped and bred with the Spanish women, thus forever changing the bloodline, looks, complexion and skin color of what used to be predominately white, European Spainards. Today when we see the average Spaniard, most of the time we see a dark skinned (but usually not totally black) dark haired (only) brown eyes, race of people today. This is due to the Islamists forever destroying the pure Spanish bloodline in their 300 year occupation of Spain.

            I once knew a young woman who's family ancestry came from northern Spain that resisted the Moorish invasion and kept the Islamists out militarily. Her skin was as white and hair as blonde, with blue eyes, as any nordic or Germanic European. Unless she told you that her family came from northern Spain, you would think she had nordic/teutonic/Germanic ancestry. Today, for the most part, you only see people like her in Spain in the far northern part of Spain. Because except for northern Spain, her race and bloodline was tainted and for all practical purposes destroyed by Moorish/Islamist inbreeding with white Spanish women.

            Don't get me wrong, I'm not a racist advocating for an all white Spain, I'm just the messenger who has studied the causes for the Crusades and am reporting what has been historically documented.

            Travis N Montgomery, what you missed in your false premise that sought to align Crusaders as equally evil as Islamists, is that the Crusades and the Crusader knights were a reaction to Islamist military invasion and occupation of European Christian countries and they were simply reacting to the Islamist invasion of Europe and driving the Islamists out and all the way back to their own middle eastern countries. Did the crusaders have to be brutal and just as savage as the Islamist armies and warriors they fought in battle? Of course. They couldn't drive out a military invader dedicated to a book that isn't a religion at all, but is a manual for military conquest of the world and FORCED imposition of their dark cult of death upon all the European countries they partially or almost completely had conquered and occupied (as the case with Spain).....with flowers and love. You drive them out by at least TEMPORARILY being just as,...or more brutal than they and their islamist soldiers were, until they are driven out and defeated.

        2. Minister Bill's Avatar Minister Bill

          Exactly and rightly spot on CW.

      3. Dragon Priest's Avatar Dragon Priest

        Muslims get all offended when things about their "prophet" are known. I have read some of the Hadiths and some of the things about old mohamed makes those offenses seem normal. It should stay up as a way of people being educated. Some will even read the koran and see for themselves its all there and true. They bill him as the perfect man, it is so far off that its disgusting.

        1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

          Maybe there's just something twisted about Prophets in general, Paul. In case you don't have a Bible handy, here's a link to Numbers 31. Take a few minutes to read it and let us know if you find any of it offensive.


    2. mary's Avatar mary

      I have to support anyone's right to free speech, but this is so divisive. People must remember that things were so very different long ago. Girls were betrothed at incredibly young ages. Many men had multiple wives. People owned slaves. Just because it is wrong today does not mean it was wrong long ago.We need to leave the past in the past since nothing we do can change it and work on coming together as people of faith, whatever that faith may be.

      1. Sheila's Avatar Sheila

        This practice continues today, It has not ceased

      2. CW's Avatar CW

        A faith based off of hate of all non believers is not a faith, it is just hate.When the blind like you wake up it my be to late. It maybe be your being raped killed or forced to convert before you see. When a faith considers acts of terror a way into heaven and women lesser beings, it needs to be removed as the cancer it is not coddle and ignored. The faiths hate of all others will not end.

        1. Herlinda's Avatar Herlinda

          Thank you!

        2. MDA's Avatar MDA

          CW, I agree with you 100% and thank you! This group is not tolerant of other religions or anyone who is a non believer. As a group they want to impose Shira Law as the law in every land they conquer. People around this world need to wake up! How anyone can support a group that burns humans alive, throws homosexuals off buildings and beheads people is unbelievable but there are those that still call this a religion of peace. What a joke that is!

          1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            ...and yet, if I call someone a jerk, I'm spreading hate.

          2. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

            Mr. OWINS, I HAVE CALLED U a JERK MANY,MANY TIMES and U CALLED ME a HATER among other INSULTS it is WRITTEN so don't DENY DUMP the IGNORAMUS tRUMP, GOD is GREAT so is the US of A

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            i dont think the muslim/islam victims and their families and their neighbors are any more impressed with the behavior than we are and i do feel that they are greatful to be in a society that does not instigate such behaviors. (though we do have our own hiccups and are not free of violent interruptions). i also feel there are many muslim/islam who do not wish to become victims. we need to demonstrate compassion to those who are here now. open your arms. protect all people. offer a safe place.

          4. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            MDA I have to respectfully disagree with the notion that it is Muslims and Muslims alone who are guilty of these acts.

            In the US alone there were over 5000 hate crimes in 2016 with more than 56% of them targeting gay men. With 2016 being the year of the deadliest mass shooting in history and it was targeted in inside an Orlando Gay Nightclub.

            What about the Sandy Hook Elementary school shooting where 20 first grades were basically executed.

            And I can list multiple deplorable acts done in the name of Jesus Christ and Christianity. Timothy McVeigh and David Korech are perfect examples. These are the stories that they are (Islamic/Muslims) are hearing as examples of what Americans are like and what we stand for.

            Like I said evil has many faces and often hides behind their individual misuse of their holy doctrine. That is what we need to wake up and realize. The media shows us what will be the most easily sensationalize information to keep people engaged. It works both ways. Their media only shows what is wrong with American and they form their own fears and hate as many do here.

          5. inga's Avatar inga

            i said that some where already. if north america had a billboard of such nature..it would be MUCH larger.

          6. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Joanne, could you qualify those hate crimes in 2016? I'd like to know what goes into that statistic. Would that be like, calling them names? Could it include shoving someone because they propositioned you? Maybe egging their automobile. How does one determine motive? If I hit you with a pipe because I want your shoes, how is that less hate than if I hit you with a pipe because you represent some group that has wronged me or my people? I'm just curious. I know they weren't all killed, so, it kinda seems you are comparing radishes to oranges. I know the statistics don't even include hate crimes committed against WASPs for being white.

          7. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            John Owens I actually have the 2014 and not 2016 as I had said. I mistype but her is the FBI hate crime statistics for 2014 https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/latest-hate-crime-statistics-available

          8. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            I looked that up, Joanne. I am not faulting you for it, but that was practically useless, since it did not explain anything about what was considered a hate crime.

        3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

          Are you referring to this, CW?

          Deuteronomy 13 6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

          1. Norma Battes's Avatar Norma Battes

            Brother John: Not that your post will help defuse the angst between beliefs, however I see your point - glass houses and tossing stones. Hailing from the 60's flower child era, I follow the live-and-let-live mantra. ...waiting on CW

          2. Most Reverend's Avatar Most Reverend

            Christ fulfilled the law, so we don't stone people in the name of Christianity and God. Keep in mind, there are religions and people who still do. You do however cast these people out of your life for they who work against you don't belong being close to you.

          3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            It may not defuse, but may expose and weaken extreme views that are both hypocritical and hyperbolic (and sometimes outright false), Norma. This applies to MDA and others as well.

            As Islam, Christianity and Judaism all have the same foundation, denigrating one while glorifying another fabricates divisiveness, fear and hatred.

            Fuelling these primal emotions in the masses has been used politically to enslave the minds of "believers", justifying and encouraging the slaughter of innocent people on behalf of the slavemasters, for century after century. Sadly, there are many "believers" of all stripes who consciously choose to cling to Bronze Age thinking and beliefs rather than helping our species shed the barbarism and ignorance that continues to foul and destroy the world we all inhabit. Based on our on-going cruelty, brutality and ignorance, Homo sapiens are a plague upon the earth and a threat to all life upon it. Only our overblown hubris makes us the "epitome of creation".

            While many Christians conveniently avoid the monstrous accounts of their chosen god and multitude of commands and laws in the OT, they're happy to assume that all Muslims follow every word in the Quran. All great examples of the destructive power of religious beliefs and one of the reasons atheism/secularism is on the rise. It's never too late for mankind to start using their brains, but time is running short.

        4. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          People of all faiths, which can be seen throughout these blogs, believe and have no problem letting those who do not believe as They do that they will not find their way into heaven. They post threats and hate. Evil and radicals are a part of any belief system and can be easily proven. Most religions teach that they are the one true way into the kingdom of God, so ot os hard to know which religion you are referring to. There are good people of all faiths as well and they should not live in fear because we close our eyes to the problems within our own faiths and try to those first.

          1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -- Blaise Pascal

            "Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence." -- Anonymous

            "Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?" -- James Madison

            "I would believe any religion that could prove it had existed since the beginning of the world. But when I see Socrates, Plato, Moses, and Mohammed I do not think there is such a one. All religions owe their origin to man." -- Napoleon Bonaparte

            "Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence." -- Richard Dawkins

            "Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish." -- Anonymous

      3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Some excellent points, Mary. Myths in ancient texts become "reality" to those who "believe". Those beliefs have been used to control and enslave people for century after century. Thankfully, enlightened people have turned away from much of the ancient, and often barbaric, practices of the past, otherwise you would have no voice in this church.

        1 Corinthians:34-35. New International Version (NIV) 34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

        1. inga's Avatar inga

          thats what im saying !! or rather.. thats what i was saying in the gender equality article. its not my fault. if you want to be part of THIS particular book club, the book club has rules. not my rules.. god's rules. its *his book club.

          one cant re write the book or the rules to suit THEIR ideals. in this case, they need make their own club. as this club, it CLEARLY states on women.

          i say people are arrogant, assuming they can over ride gods word. they can bluff some of the people some of the time. but god can read hearts. and he has given us the instructions/bible to choose to practice now as demonstration of if we qualify. or decide if we are going to challenge his word. . or walk away. we have a choice.

          its best to choose wisely.

          1. Dragon Priest's Avatar Dragon Priest

            You make some wild assumptions. That koran was changed very early on to be the evil it is today. You also assume that it was God's word. The Creator does not hate believers or unbelievers. He will never want others to murder his creation over a faulty human created belief system. So that makes it not God's word much like the Bible it was changed to support an agenda of control and power.

          2. inga's Avatar inga

            if youcan not pick anyone or anything to fault. thats your choice. the basics are the same and real. its your choice to believe if god has standards or not, and we dont really need a book for that. even us, decide who we have to dinner or keep company with. dont assume god is going to waste time arguing or entertaining those who are just being a$$holes. you wouldnt.. and yeah. i can assume he wont either. we have the choice to be good people .. or not. both have consequences.. unlike this site .. lol. claims. cause and effect. action and reaction. you can challenge the BIG guy if you like. its your choice. trying to change my mind.. wont further your quest with god. lol. those who dont belive in god. their choice. but no heaven for you, since you dont believe. you dont get it both ways. athiest, perfectly understandable. catholic oh yeah. i get that too. i am neither. but i agree with peoples choices. and respect the consequences of their/our choices. good luck.

        2. inga's Avatar inga

          i agree. women are not "equal" by any means. we are complimentary.

          1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            complementary. The "i" changes the meaning to one who gives compliments, rather than one who completes. Just saying.

          2. inga's Avatar inga

            english lesson of the day. i did not know that. fortunately ii chose the correct spelling. i am a separate individual.

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            curiously. in the other room.. "anti mu".. how many north americans do you think still assume god and/or jesus and or moses.. to be a white guy.. lol. compl*ements of the church portraits and hollywood actors portrayals.

          4. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Inga...spiritually, there is no difference between men and women...these are just constructs to work with karma...Tom

          5. inga's Avatar inga

            you could be right.

          6. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Male and female are only relevant while we are in human form

          7. inga's Avatar inga

            jesus is the "son" of god. there is difference there. else god would have not have a "son" .

          8. inga's Avatar inga

            but i disagree with this competition between men and women or black and white.. or..

            there is no competition. (for some of us. for others there is. we all have our places and roles to play.

            thats the thing. realizing that people have different positions. some ARE in competition. its good to identify yourself.

            there is no blanket solution. but we MUST realize or learn to recognize the differences as well as the similarities. and not assume one answer.

            one answer is a very narrow minded approach. sorry if that offends.. but some thought should be given to if it does, rather than just instantly retaliating. it speaks such volumes and is a reflection of..

        3. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

          Joanne...right...the concepts of male and female are only constructs/ego...Tom

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            bi sexual too ?? arggg

          2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Again it has been awhile since I read the Bible but years of CCD classes kind of embedded much in my mind and I clearly remember that it states we are all Gods children. So yes Jesus is the son of God but then so aren't you Tom and wouldn't that make me the daughter of God. Therefore to assume that only one belief system is correct and only this small section of people in this huge world are "heaven worthy" then I see that as saying if we are all God's children then he made a lot of mistakes. That is one claim I am not willing to make.

          3. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Joanne...there is no way for us to make judgments about God making mistakes...we are all equally part of God...everyone goes in and out of the peace (heaven)...one thing i suggest everyone consider is that there is no anthropomorphic God...that is simply an ego concept, as the ego acts against God...Tom

        4. Sanne D. Berg's Avatar Sanne D. Berg

          I am so glad to be an Atheist. I call out bullshit without living in a glass house.

      4. inga's Avatar inga

        we could start a petition to get multiple husbands.. ?? lol. but really. would you want more that one ?? i mean. really. lol. they are a breed unto their own.

      5. Dragon Priest's Avatar Dragon Priest

        Slavery is still practiced in islamic societies today. Know your history.

        1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

          SLAVERY is PRACTICED here in the UA of A, KNOW YOUR NEWS !!!

          1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

            THATS the US of A, sorry !!!

      6. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

        Thank you Mary. Sorry I did not see your response earlier, I must have missed it. Much like wanting to change the $20 bill and remove Jackson in part to the fact that he was a slave-owner.

        It seems inconceivable to is now but the reality is it was a different time and not to make like of how horrendous the idea of own slaves is to us now the reality Is that slaves built the white house and for many years worked for the president. This was sadly how things were at the time. They knew no better.

        Thankfully the world has change in many aspects such as that but fact is it was just a way of living.

        This billboard is not providing historical information as a way of providing information or a history lesson. It is simply written and laid out in a way to generate fear and spread hate.

        Americans are always disgusted when we see children in the middle East celebrating after something as horrific as 911. We then decide that they are just evil spawning evil. Well another example of being witness to a generation that has only heard horrible things about Americans and how Muslims are treated in our country and they are probably receiving information in this same way that instills fear of the unknown and they too decide that this information, because it may be true about and individual or individuals that it is an accurate representation of all Americans.

        It's a vicious circle Of misunderstanding and hate and it needs to end somewhere dont you think.

    3. Sheila's Avatar Sheila

      Many people died in order for us all to enjoy free speech, and it is the Law of the land. Hateful horrible things have been stated and done to every group in the Country. I would rather have the right of FREE speech and assembly. As Christ states render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar ( Law of the land) The law of the land can make a stand.

      1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        See my reply to Mary just above, Sheila. As an atheist, I find this ridiculous, but you may want to give it some serious consideration.

    4. Sheila's Avatar Sheila

      There are so many group that have entered our Country that do not understand how the Constitution and the Bill of Rights work, it appears they have entered this Country only to bring the suppressive Governments that they were trying to get away from ,with them. I refuse to let any one or any Group that has entered in recent history to try and destroy the freedoms that our forefathers created and that the men in my family died for, and I can clearly see that we all must make a stand against any all fractions that threaten those freedoms. Freedom of speech, and Freedom of the Press are to be protected.

      1. donald nelson (@dn3664)'s Avatar donald nelson (@dn3664)

        More love less hate

      2. Norma Battes's Avatar Norma Battes

        Sheila: And freedom of religion? Please don't hate on me. Just a reasonable and thought out response is desired.

        1. Most Reverend's Avatar Most Reverend

          Islam is not a religion, its a systemic way of life, of law and government. They do not and never will come here and assimilate. They do want to come here and implement Islam as the law of the Land and Sharia for all.

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            we had a forest fire in fort macMurray last year. it was pretty devastating and forced alot of people out of their homes fast. like NOW !! the people were displaced and many canadians helped them with food and shelter. they all thought they were going back. they wanted to..

            but after being away for a while.. 2/3 of those who had left, have no desire to go back.

            immigrants sometimes have all the good intentions.. much like the local residences.. but circumstances change. and we change with them.

            i have faith in us. talking about it.. well. sometimes we are "tougher" than we really are.. but when push comes to shove.. we will help them in their time of need,.. just as they would us in our time. be kind. have faith.

          2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            There's enough misinformation here already, Most Reverend. Did you even bother doing a simple search for "Islam" before posting? Try it and let us know what you learned. Then you may want to begin contacting all the sites that say (correctly) it's a religion to demand they correct their errors.

            BTW... your credibility rating just dropped noticeably, but will plummet unless you post an admission of error/ignorance.

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            he is sorry. can he have cake now. bahahah. sorry.

      3. inga's Avatar inga

        the press is paid to reposrt stories according to the channel they are being paid for. oh my . com'on people. do you even try ??!!

        1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          Exactly...media it meant to "entertain" first and report facts second. The most sensationalized information will get first call. It is not always the whole story and is often promoted as being the fault of a community rather than the individual.

    5. Rev paul's Avatar Rev paul

      Taking away a islamic bill board will not stop islam from spreading

      1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Good point Rev Paul.... I believe Islam is spreading faster than most, if not all, religions. What it will spread is bigotry, ignorance, fear and hatred..... just what our world needs..

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          It pains me greatly to say this, but your last statement is spot-on. I know that makes your day, that I agree with you about something. Now you can feel like a big-shot and deserve it.

        2. Norma Battes's Avatar Norma Battes

          Brother John: What is a self-proclaimed athiest like you doing on a religious site that promotes accepting all beliefs? Shucks, never mind. I just re-read your post. Religious or not, it is the faithless that seek death and destruction.

          1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            This is not a "religious site", Norma. Atheist, Agnostics and others are welcome and are not religious.

            "The Universal Life Church was founded on the basic belief that we are all children of the same universe and, derived from that basic belief, has established two core tenets by which it expects its ministers to conduct themselves:

            Do only that which is right.

            Every individual is free to practice their religion in the manner of their choosing, as mandated by the First Amendment, so long as that expression does not impinge upon the rights or freedoms of others and is in accordance with the government’s laws. We have made it our mission to actualize these tenets in the world by empowering millions of ministers, whether they come to us from a Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jewish, Catholic, Shinto, Agnostic, Atheist, Pagan, Wiccan, or Druid tradition, to speak their own truth to power."

            You say, "Religious or not, it is the faithless that seek death and destruction."

            You've got to be kidding! It's principally Christians vs Muslims today as we can plainly read in forums like this one. We atheists watch in horror as the two fanatical, deluded groups battle over which interpretations of ancient myths are true.

            There's a caveat to "accepting all beliefs" in the ULC's mission in case you missed it. Most rational people would agree that forcefully occupying countries other than your own and raining down destruction and terror on it's inhabitants qualifies as impinging upon the rights and freedoms of others.

            Fill in the blank and sing along...

            Onward xxxxxxxxx soldiers, marching off to war, With the cross of Jesus going on before.

            Looks like the first one has too many letters to be "atheist". Hmm.. maybe it's "atheistic soldiers" but it's strange that they'd be following Jesus, especially to yet another war.

            "Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." -- Frater Ravus

            "'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'" -- Douglas Adams

          2. Norma Battes's Avatar Norma Battes

            Brother John: Universal Life Church Monastery is not a religious website? Dernnit, "The ULC is open to people of all faiths,...." Who woulda guessed?

            Also from the ULC homepage, "Our fundamental tasks are to promote freedom of religion...." "The ULC is open to people..., ...offering everyone the religious freedom..., ... and [to] practice your beliefs." Here, I will take the liberty to assume ULC defines "beliefs" as religion, and I will allow you your atheism as a belief and acceptable. However, I do believe ULC to be a religious site with intentions to promote tolerance and acceptance of diversity. Best of luck to you.

          3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Norma said, "Here, I will take the liberty to assume ULC defines “beliefs” as religion, and I will allow you your atheism as a belief and acceptable."

            Thanks for your allowance but it's invalid.

            You may be correct about the ULC's definition, but atheism is not a belief.

            Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.

            "Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

            Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.” Source: American Atheists

            There are also countless "beliefs" people have that aren't anything to do with religion.

            Racists believe their's is the superior race. Nationalists believe their's is the best country..........et al

            No comment about Christians vs Muslims causing much of the death and destruction in the world today as opposed to "the faithless"?

            Or this? Most rational people would agree that forcefully occupying countries other than your own and raining down destruction and terror on it’s inhabitants qualifies as impinging upon the rights and freedoms of others.

          4. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


          5. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Universalist Churches beyond this website welcome all people regardless of religion, belief system and/or any other thing that separates us from each other. It allows the congregation to learn from each other and teaches coexistence and a life without prejudice.

            The Universalist Church that I belong to and sometimes lead services at offer different services every Sunday as well as groups and club meeting during the week. Some of the services have included. Effective and Respectful Communication, The Healing Power of Music and sometimes just information sessions on different beliefs and is followed up each week with a meet and greet after where's everyone gets the chance to have idle chit chat or further the discussion started during the service.

            There is also a Buddhist Book Club and Humanist and Atheist Covent group each week.

            So whatever the description is regarding this website Universalists are all welcoming and has no definition of believer or. Nonbelievers it is simple a place where Love is its own religion and respect for all people is what it is working for.

          6. inga's Avatar inga

            which is why i apologized . and pointed out that i apologized repeatedly that what you heard.. on the monkey thing. was not what was said. out of respect for you. again. what you heard.. was not what was spoken. but i still apologized and drew repeat attention to out of respect for you. and you retaliated with suggesting it was insincere.. again.. dismissing the apology.. your choice.. and then.. that there are less bahaha. well yeah !! WITH YOU.. LOL. of course !!

            your messed !!

            you speak one thing and tel another ?!! lol. you are not someone i wish to play with.. lol

          7. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Inga I will rephrase, maybe this can all be cleared up once and for all. I was not refusing to accept an apology. I truly never saw one and have still tried to search and can not find the post you are referring to.

            So I will then apologize to you because my comments were based on my own post and believing that you meant since I said I.wasnt owed an apology meant I was refusing one. My fault, I did not realize you were referring to previous post that I failed to comment on that was in fact an apology. I would not refuse to acknowledge any kind of comment like that and would not have refused or disregarded it for any reason. As I said I still can't find it but there are almost 900 comments and I could probably look for days and miss half of what is going on. So I will reply to your response regarding that post. I appreciate the gesture and accept your apology and understand that we may view things differently and it was your attempt to lighten the conversation. I will also like to say that as I have tried to go through the posts again I had missed a lot of post you made with valid points regarding the topic at hand. Like I have said each time I scroll back through I find new post that were posted even as far back as a week ago so I was wrong when I stayed and believed you had not offered any valid input. It was in error and not intentional but I can see I was wrong and I apologize for that.

      2. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


      3. inga's Avatar inga

        yes it will . take away the cues.. people arent that bright .. you give them far to much credibility . tell them there iis a sale at walmart and they will kill each other in the aisle. see black friday. put a sale on at target. they will forget all about muslims and islam

      4. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

        You are right, but it will stop misguided individuals from judgement based on this billboard alone.

        Most people will not venture beyond this billboard for any other understanding and that's where the problem lies.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          Again, respectfully, I think you grossly underestimate everyone who does not belong to whatever class of intellect to which you think you belong. That is elitist, Joanne. There is no elite, not really. There are a few people who are CONSIDERED elite in particular fields, but there is no elite class of human, who is so much more enlightened than everyone else.

          This sign was put there for people like those here on this blog, who THINK they are so enlightened that they willfully ignore the evil of this murderous pedophile's followers. That's why it was put up. Did you ever watch Saturday Night Live when Dana Carvey was playing Church Lady? You come across as thinking like her, as if you are superior.

          I know you do not think of yourself this way. I can tell you do not, because you are too patient and kind, and YET, you don't give anyone else credit for having any discernment at all. Most people DO. If they didn't, we would all be killing one another, and YOU would not have a chance at survival. Of course, Tom wouldn't either. He'd be in a cauldron with some onions and greens, and be part of some hungry cannibal's illusion of a good meal.

          1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Fair enough...we will have to agree to disagree on this point. I am sorry if it appears that I consider myself superior to anyone. It must be in my writing because I often feel like I may be drive people, especially my poor husband, crazy with my constant questions, trying to gather as much information as I can. I do and will speak on topic I understand or believe strongly in however my intent was never superiority. I am emotion driven by nature and there are some matters I know I am intolerable of and perhaps within these conversations that is where I gave this impression.

            However, you are correct that some people may view it for what it is and move on, but even on these discussion boards and in this post alone, have come across people who have commented that the truth hurts and we need to warn people of the dangers. It are these kind of thoughts that I find scary and can make a sign such as this dangerous to innocent people.

            I guess I should also mention that I have been a true crime/survivor fanatic from a young age.i find the psychology factor as it pertains to like of individuals like Charles Manson and Jeffrey Dahmer or the stories of those who suffered abuse and the phenomenon that makes these kind of people lack that certain something that would make the average person incapable of even considering such acts. I always considered it my way of keeping a heightened awareness of the things going on around me without a clouded view through rose colored glasses. Sadly, there are far more "normal" people who have the potential to do and think evil things. Now I am not saying I live in fear and everyone is bad and trust no one; i am simply saying that news is filled daily with stories that we can comprehend because it seems like no one could do something like that but it is reality.

            The only other way I can show my reason for believing this way would be to consider how many times have you heard a news report of read an article where they make sure to mention....so and so suffers from bi polar disorder and was not taking his medication at the time of this crime. Regretfully I fell under the group of people who thought of bi-polar as a scary thing that when not treated would turn people into killers. So much so that on a first date that was set up by a fiend this guy I was out with, for some reason felt compelled to open up to me, and told me he was diagnosed bi-polar but he was weening off the medication because he didnt like how it made him feel. I am ashamed to say I was actually frightened. It wasnt until I had a friend (and through the years a few people) who was diagnosed bi-polar. Well he was definitely suffering but I would have never considered him dangerous but he needs to be on medication. Well that was my ignorance about exactly what being bi-polar really is. Regardless of a person being bi-polar or not and whether they are taking medication or not, it does not suddenly turn them into a serial rapist or murderer. that was simply a way to sensationalize the news story and perhaps a way for the accused to look for some kind of deal based on "insanity"...who know...but it is used as part of news stories a lot.

            It is sometimes intentionally unwilling to see past what one wants to believe but often it is unintentionally assuming you have the whole story and the big picture. We are only human after all and what we know and believe depends on where we get our information. Therefore I just fail to see the purpose of a billboard like this unless it is meant to provide the "scary" details in hopes that it will just be considered the whole story of all Muslims/Islamic people.

          2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            I do not doubt your kindness one moment. I just see that we understand humans differently, and we can both be correct at different times in different places, I guess.

          3. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            John thank you for your kind words and I can understand where that could be. I guess a better of understanding of where the billboard was place and the demographics surrounding it. I would like to believe I am just far to jaded in these situations and that you are correct. But you make a good point that a simple locations and events surrounding its erection could make a complete difference.

    6. Paul Pignal's Avatar Paul Pignal

      First question....how do Muslims know this billboard is referring to Mohamed? His name is not on it anywhere so one must presume and assume that most Muslims already know these facts and simply don't want them to become public knowledge. Just as with any individual on a journey to truth and freedom from the false self one must look with brutal honesty at themselves. Religious groups must do the same or they will certainly go to great lengths to defend their "group think". This is evident in all former and present large scale religious indoctrination from ancient pagan cults to Judaism, to Christianity, to Islam and so forth. They always end up being a political entity with global domination as the end game. Go ahead and check the history. All of it historically has always led to major conflicts over distorted interpretations of "holy" literature which has been politicized in order to allow killing in the name of God. We in the "christian" west have been killing for God ever since 330 ad when the empire of the day made us legal and formed the very first "christian" army. Islam is using the exact same formula that the Romans used...politicize God then use Him to accomplish "your" will. Islam like Judaism, Christianity and almost every other religion in the history of mankind has been hijacked by people who are addicted to power and domination through tribal fear and the false creation of a god in their own twisted image.

      Minister Paul

      1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

        The website mentioned at the bottom of the billboard lets you know.

      2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        A couple of additions to your well written post, Paul.

        Religious "believers" are not on a "journey to truth". They believe they know it already and their minds are firmly closed and locked. “Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.” ― Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary

        "Group think" is necessary to maintain beliefs without foundation or evidence.

        Bang on that religion has been used to control the masses century after century and place a select few in authority.

    7. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

      JOE STUTLER, QUESTION is WHO WROTE the BIBLE, DUMP the tRUMP, GOD is GREAT and so is the US of A

    8. leekayetj's Avatar leekayetj

      You have eyes Yet you don't see

      1. inga's Avatar inga

        what does that mean. i mean i know what that means.. but what is your angle please.

    9. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


    10. Sam's Avatar Sam

      billboard writer has a point, but fails to mention that the same sort of thing can be said about any religion... from caste systems to subservient wives, they all do or did violate human rights . The only god that is truly sinless is the one in everyone's heart; every religion is just a feeble attempt to explain the knowledge in everyone that there are things greater than our understanding at work in us and our universe.

      1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Albeit a skewed point, Sam. The actions of organized religions have been far from feeble and their attempt (that have been successful) is to enslave the minds of the masses with fear and submission as well as to amass immense wealth. The RCC is a fine example.

        1. inga's Avatar inga

          there is always a pessimist way of looking at things and an optimistic way of looking at things.. and a realistic approach.. etc. but collectively people are trying. not everything works for every body any more that it does for you. the grass is not greener on the other side. but people are trying. and collectively. we ARE better off than we have been at any other point in history. so WHEN ARE the rest of the people going to start getting greatful and appreciative. and helpful etc. well. some arent. and thats not my fault. nor religions, nor trumps... lol. arggg. this IS YOUR CHOICE !! YOU CHOSE YOUR LIFE. stop blaming. the rest of us are moving on with good intentions and keeping the progress going. will there be more mistakes.. more errors. oh yeah. can we wave a magic wand and fix all problems in a day.. hell no. but we can try bit by bit to make the world a better place. trying and failing and trying again.. is better than not trying and pointing fingers.. in my opinion.

          1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            I agree and have dubbed it the Rosa Parks effect. She did not set out to be the face of the civil rights movement she just simply did not think she should have to give up her seat. Keeping in mind she was seated in the "colored" section already but the white section became full. So she didn't even try to be unlawful just felt she should not have to give up her seat. She was not concerned with anyone else who did give up their seats. She did not ridicule them or demean them for not following her lead. She simply Did what she felt was right for her. Inadvertantly this personal stand for her rights became a pivotal moment in the civil rights movement.

            One person can not change the world by simply telling them what to do....however if you take a look around yourself and live a life of love peace and remove judgement perhaps someone will take notice and decide to do the same in their life and that is the only true way to make a difference

            Just live a life of acceptance and compassion and be willing to work together to help each other because that is the only thing you can actually control and if everyone spent as much time on working on the only tiny part of the world that they can change and improve as they do pointing out why everyone else is responsible for the lack of peace in our hearts....we would see a much quicker change than one could even image.

          2. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Joanne...absolutely...in the end, all we can really do in this world is be loving and caring, and model that kind of "life"...Tom

    11. moominmutti's Avatar moominmutti

      Goodness knows...Perhaps these people should ask how many 'good Christians' have owned slaves, committed rape and murder, tortured and killed non-believers (including Jews), how many American Mormon men had multiple wives at one time...oh, and there are several States in America where child marriage is, inexplicably, still legal! (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_marriage_in_the_United_States)

  1. Francisco's Avatar Francisco

    Typical American hater! Uneducated, uncultured, under-schooled, caucasian, low wage earner, ignorant, and more than likely a Trump supporter. Good help them!

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      Wow, If anyone has a narrow view. It is you Ms. Rosaly. You make this assertion based on what, a billboard? I would think that one this is a clever (Intelligent), two, rather impressive, and three, expensive form of advertising. So, did you make the connection between the billboard's assertion that this was the Islamic Prophet Mohamed from the six items listed? Or did you have to read the article, like me?

      1. eric k's Avatar eric k

        I am with you on this Joseph, witty advertisement and I had no clue who the riddle board was talking about till reading the article, by the way what the heck did this prophet Mohammad believe in, Islam? The guy sounds like a scary dude

        1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

          Hi Eric, he is the father of Islam. He was the original promoter of hate in Islam, he also is quite a confusing philosopher. His tenants are very contradictory. Like you can not be gay but their are virgin boys waiting for the gay man who lives and dies for Islam in paradise. 72 of them just like for the straight male gets 72 virgin girls, which is the minimum award. So you are promised sex if you join Muhammad. They are the Houri, Promised virgins, the route of the word Hore in English. Think about that.

          Another is that Muslims are to love and respect Jews and Christians because they are both People of the Book, therefore Muslims. Yet Mohamed beheaded 600 Jews, and the Quaran has passages describing how to torture and kill Christians and Jews. Why is this okay? Because you make them full Muslims in the after life. Islam promotes death, Because in Death all are made a pure Muslim. A pure people to the god. You are cleansed when you die.

          Come on how is this a good idea? Oh wait, salvation comes threw death. Yeah true. But by the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Lord and Son of God Most High. By God himself and no one else. You cannot achieve salvation accept by a gift of God. God brings you to life, Islam to death.

          1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            You know, this is an example of how really stupid Islam is: Of what use is a virgin to a Muslim anyway, except to deflower them? After he deflowers them, are they replaced? If not, they are no longer virgins. If that is the case, in a Muslim paradise, a man who wants to get it on twice a day with a virgin has 32 days' worth of virgins. How many times can you nail a virgin before she is no longer fun to rape? What does he do for the rest of eternity?

            Now, from whence come the virgins, and why do they have to serve this particular pig? Did they do something evil in order to be sentenced to this? What is their place in this paradise? Did they do something GOOD in order to be there?

            Did you know that a Muslim thinks if you bury his remains with pig blood and pig parts that he cannot enter paradise?

            What happens to Muslim women? Do their clitori grow back in paradise? What is their reward for being good subservient oppressed slaves? There is a lot of stupidity in the Islamic system. Also a lot of inbreeding and insanity.

          2. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


          3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            You've made some disingenuous comments about one of the world's most popular religions, Joseph. As you well know, the Bible contains much barbarity and slaughter (as well as a plethora of contradictions) attributed directly to it's version of God, or indirectly through "the Prophet" Moses, who also, like Muhammed, claimed to be in direct contact with their God. While you seem to have some significant knowledge, some of your posts are more proselytizing rather than informative.

          4. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            I think it's cute how leftists like to use big words they really don't understand over and over. It's like code to the rest of the leftists, saying, "Look at me! I'm one of you!"

            Disingenuous? I guess that sounds nice to a lefty, but the way you are using it is not correct at all. I notice you did not deny any of the things said about Islam or Mohammed, but instead criticized Yahweh. THAT's disingenuous. "Well, what about so-and so?" THAT's disingenuous. OH, and then you used proselytizing. Good one. So many proselytizers here. Surprised you didn't put misogynistic in there, but I guess since we were talking about ISLAM on this post, you wouldn't want to use it here.

            Mr. Maher, did you ask your doctor about your thyroid? I really hope you get better. I was hoping your Tourette's would improve. Maybe cannabis oil?

          5. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Oh, yes, and "plethora". Just FYI, those contradictions you mention exist in your understanding, not the word of Yahweh.

          6. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Disingenuous = not truly honest or sincere

            Actually I did post contrary information about Muhammed on June 15 and you already replied to it today.

            I find it pathetic that people like yourself feel compelled to put others in made up categories. You seem smitten with "lefty" which I'll gladly accept as I'm left handed. No apologies for having a vocabulary beyond the Grade 7 level.

          7. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Bra John, You just showed that you used the word incorrectly. You are the categorizer. That is what lefties DO, and yes, THAT IS YOUR CATEGORY, and your vocabulary is not above 7th grade, at least not as exhibited here. TRYING to use big words is what children do when they learn one that sounds "cool" to them. I could use fancy words like that in the third and fourth grade but by sixth grade I found them pretentious, as are all affectations. But, HEY, LIVE IT UP, Bra!

          8. Tony Doles's Avatar Tony Doles

            I wonder how many of you actually have read the Quran or hadiths of Islam? What about the bible? Have you studied that? How about the Talmud or Torah of the Jewish faith? The Torah and Talmud of the Jewish faith allows rape of any child as long as they're goyim (non Jew or "cattle") male or female. Every nobleman in the bible owned slaves. The Jews had Jesus Christ murdered!! Whole cities were slaughtered by christians during the inquisition and crusades of "non-believers". Islam is a religion that is no different than the others. You criticize one, you criticize ALL.....

          9. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Great comment, Tony. Haven't seen you posting here in the past. Welcome!! You'll find a number of "Christians" posting here with beliefs influenced by bigotry and it's constant companion, ignorance. While they're quite adept at showering us with scripture, few will have read the Quran. That will, however, not deter them from denigrating one of the world's most widespread religions, it's founder and it's adherents while ignoring the similarities with their own as you've pointed out.

            Had the birth lottery placed these zealots in Pakistan, Iran or Morocco, they'd be praising Allah and demonizing Christians. Ignorance knows no boundaries. Fervent belief trumps reason, logic and reality.

            "When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion." -- Robert M. Pirsig

          10. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            ...or progressive...

    2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      Pancho, to whom are you referring as a hater? Why would it be hate to publish factual statements about a historical figure? Why do YOU think you are more educated and earn more and are more enlightened than this person to whom you refer. How ignorant could this person be if they have the disposable income and done the research to put up this sign?

      1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


      2. Ken's Avatar Ken

        John Owens, Please listen to Brother John. He's right and you're wrong. You are promoting the same hate as the bible does. No religion is without its faults. Christianity is no different.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          You're full of already digested beans, Ken. The Bra John is promoting hate, and therefore, since you agree with him, so are you. Just because he belongs to the same club as you does not make him right. I have not promoted hate one iota. That is you guys. You are as bad as Mr. Maher there. Your points of view are bigoted and retarded.

        2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

          Thanks Ken, but I doubt you'll have any impact on John Owens. He was called out in the past for using "disabled tweaker" and "retarded" as slurs against a member who disagreed with him. Although he apologized at the time and vowed to be more civil, I see that he still finds it acceptable to use "retarded" to describe your points of view. This is supposed to be a spiritually oriented forum for adult discussion and there is much we can learn from one another. There's no reason to accept or promote ignorance, bigotry and hatred in this world, and certainly not on this forum. We're quite capable of moderating this forum ourselves by simply exposing it when it appears. I encourage you and others who are trying to have meaningful discussions to do so.

          Bigotry is defined as "stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own." John (and others), as opposed to yourself, is often a fine example.

          I'm not going to waste my time debunking Owen's preposterous claim that he has "not promoted hate one iota". As opposed to a face to face conversation, one cannot deny what was said as it's here for all to read.

          1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Perhaps we define hate speech differently. Saying you are completely wrong and arrogant is not hate. It is an observation that you might find useful to improve yourself, if you were not so arrogant. Retarded means, SLOW. Underdeveloped. Behind. Poco ritardo is a note on sheet music to instruct the musician.

            As to this reference, "He was called out in the past for using “disabled tweaker” and “retarded” as slurs against a member who disagreed with him. Although he apologized at the time and vowed to be more civil, I see that he still finds it acceptable to use “retarded” to describe your points of view.", I realized that Bra John and his ilk, who think they should be able to say anything they like and I, I should be Christ-like about everything. In other words, to prove I am good and kind, I should allow them to act like hyenas and verbally strip the meat from my bones without protest or insult. (I see Bra John has nothing better to do than to go back over and over the blogs)

            That is the tactic of the left. They say they want you to DIE, but accuse you of hate-speech if you call them stupid or lazy or deranged. Knowing this, I made a conscious decision to not allow impotent small-minded people to silence me.

            That is what is happening with the Muslims. They can say they want to take over, rape our women, kill us, take our country, install Sharia law, but if we say anything about them, even if it is truthful, it is called hate-speech.

            Now, Bra John says KMA and calls me bigoted and promoting ignorance and hatred, but THAT'S NOT NAME-CALLING. THAT'S NOT HATE. That's just mature, reasonable, educated observation. Well, I think it's pretty obvious he's full of digested stuff.

          2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            You can take me off your "lefty list", Jack, as I don't meet your bizarre requirements. I've never, in my entire life, said, or even thought, I want some to DIE.

            Most people would assume "lefty, liberal, tree huggers" to be pacifists and right-wing conservatives more likely to be warmongers. But there are obviously exceptions.

          3. Norma Battes's Avatar Norma Battes

            (To Brother John erroneously posted elsewhere.)

            ” Brother John June 21, 2017 at 2:23 pm Good point Rev Paul…. I believe Islam is spreading faster than most, if not all, religions. What it will spread is bigotry, ignorance, fear and hatred….. just what our world needs..” (Would this post be considered hate speech against Islamic belief?)

            ” Brother John June 21, 2017 at 1:10 pm There’s no reason to accept or promote ignorance, bigotry and hatred in this world, and certainly not on this forum. ”

            Does this contradict your post above?

            “Brother John June 21, 2017 at 1:10 pm This is supposed to be a spiritually oriented forum for adult discussion and there is much we can learn from one another. ”

            Semantics notwithstanding, does this post contradict your post below?

            ” Brother John June 22, 2017 at 1:22 pm This is not a “religious site”, Norma. Atheist, Agnostics and others are welcome and are not religious. ”

            My Brother, I wish you well on what appears to be this arduous journey you have chosen. I pray you accept the many joys along your path that when your time is still you will find your efforts worthwhile. Vaya con Dios

          4. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            I know what you mean about getting disconnected during a discussion, Norma. I think I can piece together what your asking...

            No contradiction. The billboard is indeed promoting ignorance rather than knowledge and understanding.

            Spiritual has no implied connection to a specific religion. Semantics are important to effective communication. Here's an excellent comparison of the two....


        3. Dr. Michael Glick's Avatar Dr. Michael Glick

          While it is true (from my point of view) that

        4. Norma Battes's Avatar Norma Battes

          " Brother John June 21, 2017 at 2:23 pm Good point Rev Paul…. I believe Islam is spreading faster than most, if not all, religions. What it will spread is bigotry, ignorance, fear and hatred….. just what our world needs.." (Would this post be considered hate speech against Islamic belief?)

          " Brother John June 21, 2017 at 1:10 pm There’s no reason to accept or promote ignorance, bigotry and hatred in this world, and certainly not on this forum. "

          Does this contradict your post above?

          "Brother John June 21, 2017 at 1:10 pm This is supposed to be a spiritually oriented forum for adult discussion and there is much we can learn from one another. "

          Semantics notwithstanding, does this post contradict your post below?

          " Brother John June 22, 2017 at 1:22 pm This is not a “religious site”, Norma. Atheist, Agnostics and others are welcome and are not religious. "

          My Brother, I wish you well on what appears to be this arduous journey you have chosen. I pray you accept the many joys along your path that when your time is still you will find your efforts worthwhile. Vaya con Dios

          1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Just a head's up, Norma. If your post is tagged for moderation (in red) it may take a few days to appear, especially if it's after 5 pm or on the weekend. I've re-posted and have had both appear like yours. Our moderators are probably all volunteers performing a thankless task.


      3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        The name is Francisco, not "Pancho", John Owens. You've been called out in the past for your ignorant comments, but can't seem to control yourself. As I have little respect for your misguided, bigoted opinions, I find many of your comments pathetically amusing, but others many find them personally offensive. Carry on with your nastiness if you like, but I, for one, will not be giving you a pass in the future. Understand that in many cases, you're simply making a fool of yourself. I wish Moses would appear and teach you a lesson you'd never forget.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          You are comically pathetic, after condemning Moses and his God, you take his name as if you are standing in his place.

          Pancho is one of the most popular nicknames for Francisco, as Jack or Johnny are for John. If you were one half as smart as you think you are, you would know that.

          As for your respect, who gives a rat's culito what a gruñon respects? The chaff is nothing to the wheat. You are the misguided one, the bigoted one, the pathetically amusing one, the nasty one, the one who makes a fool of himself, the one who cannot shut his receptacle, because you are maladjusted, maleducated, bitter, sad, spiteful, a despiser of good things, and a lover of evil. You can end this back-and-forth anytime you get ready. All you have to do is stop being a jerk. You can do that by clamming up, or talking like a human instead of a sphincter.

          1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Hahahaha!! You forgot "retarded", but did toss in some big boy words.

          2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Just FYI, retarded is not a name, but a condition, like maladjusted and maleducated. I see you'd rather continue the banter. I'm a little busy but I'll be back.

          3. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            ...and you overlooked the little Spanish lesson I gave you there.

          4. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            OK Jack.

          5. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Ahora aprendes, Juancito! Ya sabes.

          6. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


          7. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Mr. Maher, I'm so sorry you suffer from tourettes, but feel free to report me as a bully (that's what sissies do, tell on the bullies) anytime you feel like it. Be warned, though, if you call attention to my notes, you may well call attention to your own. I don't do fake F bombs and such like you do, so, it's just something to consider. I think I've treated your ravings with much more respect than you have my grammatically correct ones. Just keep trying to make cogent thoughts, and sooner or later, you'll have one.

          8. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            And, Mr. Maher, I'm not QUICK to call names, but I don't have to take any crap off anyone else either, and you just keep trying to goad me, even when I am not speaking with you. You just jump in and throw feeble insults. My Christian parents taught me to be kind to people like you, but you DO make it difficult. I'm still trying, though.

          9. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


          10. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Please take your medicine, Mr. Maher.

          11. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            John Maher...... although you may have a reason for it, using the PsYCHO kILLr FoNT for every post encourages me to simply scroll on by. If you'd actually like to have us take you seriously, try typing normally like most of us do... You'll find it's actually easier as you won't be constantly reaching for the caps lock.

          12. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Woah, John Owens....I have read your replies and respected your insight however "sissies tell on bullies" in really hope that was one of those jokes I just don't understand do to the off set humor.

            Bullies are cowards who will seek out individuals who they believe are weaker than them and are often compensating for something lacking within themselves.

            My family motto is we dont hit first but we hot last because I have a zero tolerance for bullies and being the mother of a child who was bullied, until it became physical and the so called bully got the beating of his life from I would have assume by your statement, my "sissie" son.

            Forget worrying about what Muslims may or may mot be doing check the news regarding the epidemic of bullying and cyber bullying and how ot harms out children and sadly some of them are not strong enough or confident enough to stand up for themselves and reach out for help to make it stop and in the process maybe keep that bully from doing any more harm to other children. O understand this is an adult forum and you are speaking to another adult and feel that everyone should not be free to own their feelings regarding anyone's post but it's comments like only sissies tell on bullies that make me ashamed for people as a whole that you will argue about the harm Muslims are going to cause yet you jus demonstrated one of the biggest problems facing or countries children right now. It sickens me that it came from a grown man....

          13. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Joan, you took the sissies and bullies think COMPLETELY out of context. That was Maher and me. Maher called me and somebody else (I honestly don't even remember who) sissie-boys. That's were that came from. There are too many posts on here for you to check all of that, but if you read it in context and order, you might even find it funny. I can't believe what a tirade you went off on. When you realize how foolish and judgmental you were, I hope you learn something.

            I appreciate you lecturing me on bullies. I am 5'-5" and will be 60 this year. I went to public school on two continents, (well, one was an island) and I am a biker in what is probably the oldest bonafide MC in the world, and very probably the biggest. I probably know more about bullies than you ever dreamed of. I've dealt with them all my life. My son is also small. I taught him how to deal with bullies, not to be a bully. I am not the bully on this blog. There are at least two. Your acrimony is uncalled-for and a little bit show-boat. Please get off your high horse.

          14. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            John, if it is regards to a previous post and I didnt get some kind of connection then I apologize. I took it at face value and simple read what was written.

            However I will not be able to apologize for my "tirade" regarding a statement depicting the victims of bullies being sissies if they tell. If you made the connect that I did not see posts that preceded it and you claim yourself to be a victim of bullies then I am compelled to question why you expect any other kind of reaction to that statement as it stands alone.

            I included my own experience regarding my son being bullied and a parent I cant understand where I appear "show Boaty" and why you would feel that me being upset by a statement like that is unnecessary.

            Again, you let me know there were post that went along with it that would explain it away and I would then realize the meaning behind the words as something else, so my reaction was of a concerned parent and the reality of bullying epidemic that is hurting our kids. If the safety of my child and the emotion I feel when a statement is made (yet out of context I understand but I did not realize that, but you did when you berated me for it) that contributes to very thing that almost every parent is concerned about each time then send their child off to school, is considered being on my high horse, well I ask that you find me something even bigger to climb on because I will always react the same way where the people I love are involved.

            Again, I apologize I did not see the full context of the conversation because you are right, posts get out of order and with so many they can be missed; but simply letting me know that would have been responded to with the same apology so the need to question my motives or need to show boat seems unwarranted and the one part that is really unnecessary.

          15. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Joanne, I can see that you are a nice woman. I thought you were a little over-the-top in your scolding of me over the exchange with Maher. Because it's a blog, everybody sees stuff, but they only see certain stuff, and then react. I reacted to your reaction, but I still think you are a nice woman, and not an unreasonable one. You and I can converse with civility. You can't do that with everyone. Some of them treat you like an ignoramus, and then call you a meanie when you get your hackles up. That's what was going on before. If I don't talk to certain people and they don't talk to me, everything seems more civil here, but some want to control all the conversation. THEY are the bullies here. Not I.

          16. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            I can respect and understand that. sometimes I find myself on the defensive with the wrong people unsure of the intent of their responses. It's my own character flaw i guess and I try to keep it straight but miss the mark sometimes.

            As I originally started my overprotective mother rant, I had said how I always read your comments and respect your insight which may have been part of it...it kind of caught me off guard as I guess I just wasn't expecting it in one of your comments. it seemed out of place....and now I know why. no ill feelings and I look forward to sharing and exchanging of information with you.

    3. Sheila's Avatar Sheila

      Your speech is full of hate. The billboard owner got the reaction. He was looking for.

      1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

        SHEILA, PLEASE, WHOs SPEECH is FULL of HATE ??? DUMP the IGNORAMUS tRUMP, GOD is GREAT so is the US of A...................

        1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

          or just carrying on using it...

    4. Sheila's Avatar Sheila

      Rosaly The first 10 amendments to the Constitution make up the Bills of Rights, you should probably read them. It will help you a lot.

      1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        ...and thank you, Sheila.

    5. Mark's Avatar Mark

      I agree with her statement. Oh and I have a PhD, 2 Doctorate degrees and have studied Islam for 30 years. Nothing that sign says is inaccurate. Try reading history.

    6. Doug Barron's Avatar Doug Barron

      Francisco: what kind of hater are you? One who hates voters for the President currently in office; duly elected? One who hates a fellow who works for a wage every day, and raises a family? One who hates those who care about the values that created the nation we live in? One who hates the person who could not afford to earn a four year degree after finishing high school, because they had to get a job in order to support their family and pay bills? One who hates another that has a different view than you, so you label them as "ignorant"? One who hates another you consider "uncultured"? "Good help them"? I am too ignorant and uncultured to discern the meaning and intent of this phrase. Though I am confident that if I were as erudite as you aparrently are, I might understand your phraseology. Good help you also!

      1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        LOL! Funny, Doug.

    7. CW's Avatar CW

      Uneducated, uncultured, under-schooled, Caucasian, low wage earner, ignorant. Are you kidding me? So you racist as well as stupid and an American hater.

    8. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      Its hard to defend the idea that the billboard is meant to spread fear and hate when your comment simple mirrors the billboards message but targeted at those that you are angry with.

      1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        DISCLAIMER: Joanne, this paragraph is in no way a rebuttal or counterpoint to your comment here. It was just a convenient place for me to address you.

        You know, Joanne, it just occurred to me: If the Manson family suddenly developed a large following, should the people be warned about Charles Manson's and the original family's beginnings? I think the Muslim faith is more similar to them than any of the other religions-- Bahai, Shintoism, Taoism, Judaism, the many many branches of Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, any others I missed. I'm just spit-balling here. The sign mostly stirs conversation. I hope most of it is reasonably intelligent, but that is a subjective assessment anyway.

        1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          You make a very good point. Charles Manson convinced his followers that he was a direct decent of Jesus Christ and that the need for the Tate/ laBianca murders were to instill a fear in people as they tried to frame the crimes on African Americans hoping to begin a race war uprising where the whites would regain full control and he would be the supreme messiah in control of all people. He is a rather fascinating and intriguing individual. He manipulated well educated people, many from loving and caring homes and basically brainwashed them to believing ever word he said.

          He is still the only person that sat on death row without actually committing any murder himself. He still gains more and new followers even now. Thats a brain I would like to get into.

          I do believe that there is a possibility that such a "family" could be formed to the same end based within the Muslim community. but I believe the same possibility exists within most religions where the radicals choose to recruit others to fulfill their own needs. It is a scary notion and you are correct, I believe, in the concern that these kind of people exist and can somehow manage to pull off these kind of heinous crimes. But the threat exists across the board, in my opinion, and can be formed in the name of any deity they choose to claim sent them to spread their word.

          1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Yes. Right now, the biggest threats to peace are radicalized Islamists and the baby-faced dictator of North Korea. When they are neutralized or killed, there will be others. Nature abhors a vacuum, they say. There are localized threats everywhere, and they should each be addressed by the locals. If people govern themselves, they don't need government. That is what true anarchy should be-- not a lack of order or chaos, but order in which no committee or ruler is in charge. Where people govern themselves.

  1. mega's Avatar mega

    LOL OMU. Im sure other religions have dirt like that that has been covered up over the years. Never been happier to be on neutral grounds. Hope you fanatics have fun with this one ;)

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      Oh My Universe? that made me giggle. Mega, are you so turned away from God that you can't or won't use his name in vain? Is God so removed from your life that you actually had to think about how to express you self this way and remove Him from even your explicates? Listen, God is calling, through his Word, inviting, offering you forgiveness, comfort and Joy.

      You want to discuss this, just let me know. you can PM me in the minister network forum. same name no E.

      1. mega's Avatar mega

        Hehe glad you got a giggle out of that, joseph. Would love to have a chat sometime. I'll PM ya some time when a get a free moment.

        1. Minister Bill's Avatar Minister Bill

          Love it. (OMU) Perfect. Mega, you nailed it. Now, many folks "sear by god". Great, which one? Born again Christian? (HUH?). You die to have 72 wives? Sounds like hell to me. etc. Which God do you refer to? Maybe Wotan? the one Wednesday is named after? LMBO!

          1. hedenhardwareshopp's Avatar hedenhardwareshopp

            William, I worship Othinn and all his kin. But let me say that the rants about Islam are old and wore out, and yes I knew who the billboard spoke of without reading the article. Keep the billboard to educate the unknowing, but let's have an open minded exchange here.

    2. X Wing KC (@joyhargraves)'s Avatar X Wing KC (@joyhargraves)

      I am going to have to start using that phrase!! Good one!!! And I would love to chat with you one day, mega. I think we would both find much common ground and be great sounding boards for stuff that "bugs" us!

  1. Lee's Avatar Lee

    I don't see the value in a billboard like this. What is the goal of the author/designer/????? It blooms poison fruit. Why? Seems like the world has an abundance of poisonous fruit. Why cultivate more?

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      Lee I think it is to get Muslims but more likely to let the non-muslims know what kind of leader Muhammad was. I went to the website truthophobes.com and it is all about keeping Islam out of Australia. It is trying to tell the truth about what Islam would do to Australia if it were to be Islamified.

    2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      Lee I am not sure how many people here have actually read the Quran and taken the time to understand the true meaning in its pages and not accept the extremists interpretation of it. Interestingly enough, most holy doctrine, when read as it was meant to be read and not picked apart word for word looking for some hidden meaning, are actually all very similar in their message. I believe this is because all of these men, human men, we sent as messengers from a greater divine. Their message was present where it needed to be and in a way suitable for the time it was passed on. For anyone who has never read it but instead chooses to close their minds to the possibility that all faiths have radicals and extremists that most wish did not choose to desecrate the teachings that they know so well (of their own faith). All faiths have those and punishing an entire faith based on the tiny bit you have been fed to know about them is the same as all Christians being considered pedophiles and rapists due to a few heinous, evil men who dared call themselves messengers of Jesus Christ or as cult followers even since David Koresh identified himself as a true Christian man. If this came down to a Christian vs Islamic comparison, before presenting the challenge for me to find more Christian radicals than you could find Islamic Radicals....remember I am also a true crime junkie so it wouldn't really be fair to not warn you of that......

      But just to not a few important key elements of the True Islamic faith and not the one that is presented to us in the US only when it is to make a mockery of a persons faith because we need to believe that there is a reason behind everything instead of the fact that their is evil behind all bad things and unfortunately these people try to find solace and maybe even amnesty by claiming religious following.....

      True Islamic People reject all forms of terrorism - “Do not go about committing iniquity in the earth and causing disorder” (29:37); “They seek to create disorder, and Allah loves not those who create disorder” (5:65) The Holy Quran recognizes the sanctity of all human life: “Whosoever killed a person … it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind” (5:33). The Holy Prophet Muhammad said rejected all types of terrorism in the name of Islam, even while Muslims faced twelve years of vehement persecution in Mecca.

      Jihad means to struggle and strive in good works to attain nearness to God. True Islam teaches that violent jihad has no place in today's world.

      True Islam recognizes the practical equity and spiritual equality of men and women. The Holy Quran declares, “But whoso does good works, whether male or female, and is a believer, such shall enter heaven…” (4:125)

      True Islam teaches that every human being has the right to freedom of speech and freedom of religion without the threat of coercion or punishment. Holy Quran, clearly declares, “There is no compulsion in religion” (2:257).

      True Islam requires a Muslim’s loyalty and obedience to their respective country of residence and laws. The Holy Quran states, “O ye who believe, obey Allah and obey the Prophet and obey those in authority from among you” (4:60). The Holy Prophet Muhammad declared, “You should listen to and obey your ruler, even if you [despise him]”

      True Islam categorically rejects the doctrine of abrogation and lying (taqiyya). under no circumstance are Muslims ever allowed to compel their faith on others. No contradiction or abrogation exists. Extremist will often try to exploit the Quranic verses regarding peace and argue they actually carry a different meaning.

      True Islam recognizes that no one religion holds a monopoly over salvation. The Holy Quran clearly supports this belief as it declares, “Surely, those who believe and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians—whichever party from among these truly believes in God and the Last Day and does good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, and no fear shall come upon them, nor shall they grieve” (2:63).

      True Islam recognizes that the Messiah may only use logical reasoning and powerful arguments, never violence, to illustrate the true teachings of Islam.

      If you would like more examples I will find more. I want to note I do not practice within the Islamic faith so I am not even trying to defend my own spiritual beliefs here. I am simply pointing out that as Americans especially, we need to stop just taking what the media throws at us and call it truth. We need to stop forgetting that no faith is exempt from having those radicals that commit heinous crimes and do it in the name of their faith. If we could just realize and remember after 9/11, watching the children in Iran/Iraq dancing around, laughing and smiling as the twin towers fell and remember....they only know about us what their media and government wants them to know and they pass this fear and hate on to their children. Billboards like this make us no better than those same Tv broadcasts as they were counting the number of people who lost their lives in those attacks.

      1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Thanks for your thoughtful post, Joanne. It's principally religious bigotry that fans the flames of discord and hatred on all sides and creates splinter groups of extremists. I'll guess that most of the "Christians" posting here have never read the entire Bible, let alone the Quran, but feel compelled to proselytize on a regular basis and denigrate all religions other than their own. It seems many who choose to believe creation myths also believe the "official" stories about 9/11.

        Hundreds of thousands of innocent people have been (and are being) slaughtered and trillions (with a T) of borrowed $$$$ squandered as a result of the most outrageous false flag in history. This event was the trigger for the immensely profitable "Global War on Terror" and the widespread hatred of Islam and Muslims in the U.S.

        I encourage everyone to seek the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it may be, by investing a few hours to understand what really happened (and didn't happen) rather than to accept what "the media and government" wants us to believe. It's our choice to be skeptically rational about this monumental event, or enjoy the comfort of labelling it as just another "conspiracy theory". Below is an excerpt from the first linked site. There are many others.

        "Before reviewing the military air defense response on 9/11, it is important to remember objectively what the 'official story' asks the public to believe. According to their narrative, on the morning of September 11, four enormous, fuel-laden, lumbering jumbo jets were hijacked by 19 Arab men with box-cutters and zero in-air flight experience. These slow, unmaneuverable planes were then flown for 1 hour and 45 minutes through the most restricted airspace in the world without eliciting a single military intercept. The most sophisticated military in the world, able to strike dime-sized targets from hundreds of miles away with laser-guided missiles, precision radar equipment, and state of the art aircraft capable of flying well over 1,300 mph, could not locate, engage, nor intercept four wandering jumbo jets. A military that has a budget larger than the combined military assets of every other country in the world could not scramble, intercept and engage any of the radically wayward planes. Even Flight 77, which was allowed to fly unimpeded and crash into the Pentagon one full hour after two jets had been flown into the Twin Towers in NYC, failed to elicit the response and intercept from any military jets. Nor, indeed, did flight 93. A plane that crashed in a Pennsylvania field 1 hour and 45 minutes after the first plane was confirmed hijacked."

        "This official narrative leaves the public with one of two conclusions. Either the U.S. military is a wholly inept force incapable of defending the country from even the most rudimentarily hostile elements, rendering it the greatest illusion and farce the world has ever seen. Or on the morning of September 11, forces within its own ranks purposely blocked, hamstrung, and prevented the military apparatus from carrying out its most basic defensive responsibilities. In light of what we know the military can and has done in Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., in light of the plan they surely have in place to defend the skies from a potential massive enemy air-attack with striking power infinitely more powerful than that of four unarmed civilian jumbo jets, the first hypothesis is out. Which leaves behind the only logical scenario. That rogue elements from within the military and government leadership itself either stood down the military apparatus to let the events of September 11 occur on purpose. Or the same rogue elements planned, facilitated, and helped carry out the attacks themselves. Either one would be high treason and mass murder. And there is overwhelming evidence to back up both."


        http://www.911truth.org Another excellent resource

        1. calumetkid's Avatar calumetkid

          Brother John: You avoid the truth here. What happened happened. Four commercial jets did crash into the towers, Pentagon, and a field. If detected efforts were made to figure out what was going on. But too late. The desire to crash land a plane intentionally to kill thousands of innocents was not even remotely in the minds of almost everyone on earth except Islamists. A few fiction writers did suggest such a scenario in times just before 9-11. But remember, they were fiction writers. I have heard that one FBI agent did suggest such a scenario to his bosses but no one would believe or further investigate the idea after he reported that Muslims were learning how to fly jets but had no interest in hw to land them. If that's true then the FBI and the National Security agencies did fail the American people. The US Military is not prepared to shoot down American Commercial Jets soon after takeoff. They are prepared to shoot down foreign planes suspected of imminent harm to America. There is nothing "rudimentary" about the most outrageous act of terrorism ever committed in the recorded history of the human race. It is the total and exact opposite.

          So, we are left with the "official version" of the event. Millions witnessed it on TV and thousands witnessed it live and on the scene. No other version can convert all those people to entertain "conspiracy" theories. They are just theories. But facts are facts. Muslim Arabs did train to fly commercial jets. They were all associated and members of the terrorist group. Box cutters are useful tools and duped inspectors into believing tools can't be weapons. The story is now, not only plausible but factual.

          1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            I encourage you to invest a few hours reading through the two sites I linked with an open mind. Truth can be very disturbing and our minds have an overwhelming urge to protect our sense of well being.

          2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            This is true, however Timothy McVeigh killed 169 people, 19 being children at a day care center...he was not Islamic......or Adam Lanza who massacred 5-6 year old children at the Sandy Hook Elementary School....not Islamic....Seung-Hui Cho who killed 32 people at the Virginia Tech shootings....not Islamic....Jeffery Dahmer, Son of Sam, the Zodiac killer...none of these men were Islamic.

            Evil comes from all walks of life and is based on the individual(s) that carry out such evil. Look around, there is no religion that is free from radicals who hide behind a "religion" that they have warped in order to fulfill their warped sense of what it right.

            I read an article once and it said that the people who actually have the most resentment towards Muslims are Muslims. These heinous acts are not a representation of an entire religion yet the misinterpretation of the written word that they use to cover up the true evil within them and allows them to find a way to explain their actions away.

          3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            I understand why Americans do not want to know the truth about 9/11, calumetkid. But you're not left with the "official version". There is a mountain of evidence clearly indicating that the three, not just two, buildings fell through controlled demolition, plus the lack of evidence of any planes at the Pentagon or Shanksville. Much of this is included in the two links I'd posted.

            Search YouTube for "9/11 eyewitness accounts". There are many.

            Everyone I know here in Canada believes this was another false flag attack that was not only allowed to slide without those involved being prosecuted, but more importantly, has resulted in the deaths of millions of innocent people that had nothing to do with it.

            This may be the event that finally bankrupts the U.S. both financially and morally. Sadly, the likely solution will be another world war, planned and instigated by the same psychopaths who've been allowed to rule the planet. They'll be no one to blame but those who sat idly occupying their minds with things that make them happy.

            "He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it." Martin Luther King, Jr.

          4. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Although there are many 9/11 documentaries available, this is one of the best.The opening does an excellent job of explaining why uncovering the truth should be important to a nation that's cherished freedom and liberty in the past.


        2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          Here again, Bra John uses a big word he doesn't understand. "Proselytize." What a child.

          1. Nebraska Jones's Avatar Nebraska Jones

            You're attacking the man's vocabulary over and over, while giving scant attention to his arguments. That makes someone look petty and juvenile, and it isn't John.

          2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Nebraska, just because Bra happens to think like you, you ignore his rudeness and snidery. I pick at his vocabulary because he comes across as smug and snotty. If he would check his rudeness and know-it-all sophomore attitude, I could talk with him, but he thinks being ruder and snottier makes him right. He is not interested in what is right but in winning textual exchanges. This is the same kind of person who criticizes Trump for doing that. I just want him to dig himself. But, Hey, take up for him. I can never be as petty as he is if I tried, and if you choose to think so, that is your prerogative.

          3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Uh oh Nebraska, you're on John's "lefty list" now. Are you new to this forum? Haven't seen posts from you in the past. If so, welcome and be prepared for some extreme comments from some of the hardcore "believers" who frequent this open forum.

            Thanks for your support, but John's attacks have little effect on me other than mild amusement. I encourage you not to become frustrated by any of the nonsense that goes on here, and call B.S. when you see it.

            Carry on bravely

          4. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Y'all get each other's phone numbers and you can flirt without the rest of us seeing it.

          5. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Ready for another foot burger already, Jack Owens? I thought the Moses/Zipporah platter would satisfy your craving for embarrassment. Like most members, I'm not here to flirt. You, on the other hand, have been using this forum as a chat line to connect with Inga and it looks like it could get naughty. Remember, we can all read what you two are saying, including your wife.

            Inga to John - "i will watch your waistline too.. while i work on my “more to love” look. lol."

            Do you think your Harley would make it up to Fort McMurray? It sure looks like she's given you an invitation and there's probably more than a free tank of gas involved.

          6. inga's Avatar inga

            silly rabbit. brother john. are you jealous ?? lol. or just have no sense of humor.

          7. inga's Avatar inga

            its the internet.. innocent. for all we know.. you are the girl and i am the guy.. lol

            oh yeah. hmmm.

            does cute happiness scare anyone ?? if john.. you are interested in john. please says so. i dont want to step on anyones toes. lol. i suppose i should have asked ahead. my apologies. you werent act like a couple.

          8. inga's Avatar inga

            and oh.. i am not in fort MAC. that was a reference story apparently taken out of context. that happens when people assume.

            thanks for suggesting i am offering more than a tank of gas though.. lol. i havent even got that far in the conversation.. lol

            seems your impression of me s based on your assumptions. and your assumptions may not always be correct.. just saying.

        3. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

          Brother John...well said about the government and the military...the scariest part, on a temporal level, is that Jeremy Glick may have prevented a Washington D.C. disaster that our government/military may have sanctioned...the bottom line to all, though, is still to live our lives in love and caring, as nothing is "real" except the ultimate peace...religions fighting; nations fighting, etc is all like ego exercising on a large scale...ultimately not very important, unless we lose ourselves in this world of illusion, and lose our way to love and caring...Tom

          1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Thanks Tom. I understand your point, but sadly, due principally to what many people choose to believe is "reality", our planet is on the verge of massive destruction that will make the present look idyllic in contrast. Complacency, apathy and a massive sense of entitlement have allowed psycho/sociopaths to attain positions of power and authority.

            As evidenced by some of the beliefs voiced on this "spiritually oriented" forum, and more importantly, on a global scale, events are unfolding that may very well be the "end times", potentially for the survival of mankind, but certainly for life as we've known it.

            The "pursuit of happiness" creates protective shields in our minds that deflect anything that might disturb it. Early in my life I chose to seek truth, no matter where it led me. I remain stunned and saddened by what my species has done to the other 8+ million species we share the planet with, including our own. To imagine that Homo sapiens are the epitome of creation is a testament to our overblown hubris.

          2. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Brother John...whatever we choose to "destroy", even if it appears to be everything, is still only an illusion, and we will still be part of God...and everything we think is past, present and future is all the same, and all in existence always...Tom

    3. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      They are illustrating just how poison Islam is, from its very inception. The billboard illustrates what a bloodthirsty pervert Mohammed was, and by Islam referring to him as the perfect man, it shows how really stupid Islam is. It does not bear good fruit, never has, yet somehow a certain group of people in this country have decided to LIE through their teeth and teach how wonderful it can be, and how it played an important role in the building of the United States (prime example: BHO). A lot of people are worried about offending the Islamists but they are worried about offending the wrong people. Islamists are perpetually offended when they live in a country that is not dominated by Islam, so to try to appease them is futile. They will never be appeased until everything is Islamic.

      Instead, people should worry about offending working class citizens who are NOT Muslim. They are the ones who make this country operate. They produce the food and other products and get them to market and build the roads and houses and pay taxes. Worry about offending THOSE people if you have any sense. I wouldn't go out of my own way to offend a Muslim, because my CHRISTIAN parents taught me to treat people the way I would like to be treated. Sometimes, that means telling me I am mistaken.

      This sign is not mean or hurtful. The TRUTH is mean and hurtful to the Muslims, because they do not like to think about the glaring contradictions in their philosophy.

      1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Are you the John Owens that thinks the Prophet Moses is the "gold standard" of prophets? We could ask the descendants of the Midianites about the true meaning of bloodthirsty, but Mr. Gold Standard had them all slaughtered at God's command (except for the virgins kept as booty which most sane people would consider perverted). See Number 31 for the gruesome details.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          Bro John, you might do well to take a warning from all of that, while you blaspheme. If you had any wisdom at all, that is. All prophets that followed walked in his shadow. Jesus pointed HIS followers to Moses. So did Paul. Even Mohammed referred to Moses as the greatest prophet.

          The Midianites were filthy, corrupt, inbred, much like many Muslim tribes today, but they were also idolaters. The only idol the Muslims have are their traditions, which neither follow Mohammed, nor Moses, nor the Quran.

          For what, exactly, do you claim to stand, Bro John? I haven't seen anything but bile from you here. Are you striving desperately to find relevance in your bitterness?

          1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Curiously, Moses chose to marry a Midianite named Zipporah, John. I guess he liked women that were "filthy, corrupt and inbred" assuming your characterization is even remotely accurate.

          2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Yahweh didn't have them killed because they were dark-skinned. Curiously, scripture does not tell us that Moses's sons, while Levites, ever became big-shots among the Israelites.

          3. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Oh, and be careful reading that stuff. A light might shine into the darkness of your soul.

          4. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Who said anything about "dark skinned", John? Kind of awkward to recall that Moses chose to marry a Midianite after your scathing depiction of them, isn't it? LMFAO!!

          5. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            That would have been Moses's sister, the one who was watching him in his little basket in the reeds when Pharoah's daughter found him, Miriam, but don't read it-- El Shaddai might hold you responsible for things you read. If you are going to continue to be so childish, arrogant, and hard-headed (all ancient Israelitish traits, by the way), it would be better for you to remain totally ignorant.

          6. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            You're the one who denigrates the Midianites. Moses probably would have kicked your ass (or worse) had you called his wife "filthy, corrupt and inbred". I'll bet gross disrespect for a great Prophet qualifies as blasphemy, so heed your own warning. LMFAO even harder now...

          7. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            I take it back-- read all you like. Nothing is ever going to touch you. You are immune from penalty for acting like a petty, impotent jerk. Surely the law of God could never apply to you. It seems that you believe if you can act snottier than another person, it somehow means you are correct. It doesn't. It just means you are snotty. And petty. And socially crippled.

  1. Audra's Avatar Audra

    Who cares. This is free speech. This is a waste of an article in this email. Is this email newsletter going to be about what people freely speech upon with every religion. This is disgraceful. I see billboards of every ther religions and signs. Leave that for social apps.

    1. D. Howe's Avatar D. Howe

      There IS a difference, Audra, between free speech and healthy discourse. I can understand the logic of pointing out the info on the billboard, sometimes the truth needs to get out there. BUT, putting this info on a HUGE billboard, (as always IMHO) was probably undertaken as a "Gotcha" to the Islamic community. Just sayin'

    2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      Audra if you cant see that this go way past any kind of free speech that was meant to be awarded by adding that Amendment then our country is in far more danger than I had feared. You are comparing religious billboards placed by the believers of that religion to a billboard placed to instill fear in everyone who passes it and directs them to target their anger and fear at a particular group based on nothing more than their religion. So if you followed a certain religion, you would have no problem driving home and entering you neighborhood where you lived with your children to find this billboard right out front for everyone to see. It is only disgraceful and everyone's right to freedom of speech because it does not put your family or children in danger.

      I am not even going to question if this is a real individual they are speaking of or multiple cases they threw together for impact, or if has any truth in it at all regarding any individual, but truth of the matter is....this is not an accurate representation of the Islamic Religion. No I am not Islamic but I have read and understand the Quran. It is putting innocent people in danger for the acts of a few who happened to identify themselves as Islamic and therefore it must be what all Islamic people are like.

      You choose to want to believe whatever the media tells you.....turn on your nightly news....disregarding of course the major traumatic events that were done and claimed to be done based on the words of Quran (which again is not a true interpretation of its meaning)...and I do not see many Islamic people on the news in my area killing, raping and molesting. I would be willing to bet you can say the same. So if this si true why should Islamic families living near and around thins kind of propagandize be in fear of their lives and the lives of their families....because as a whole, we are too lazy and ignorant to take the time and actually see what the religion is all about and maybe look around at the people we share our faith with and some of the heinous crimes they have committed and you tell me that this is an innocent sign exercising our right to free speech. Its an embarrassment that we have all just come to rely on what we are told rather than find out for ourselves and even worse, we spend so much time finding faults in everyone else; especially if they do not believe the same as we do, that we can sit back an act like there would be no reason to believe we may be the heinous ones if media was the only way to learn of ones religion and culture. Educate yourself and fix what you need to have done first and maybe if everyone focused on that we would find a lot happier healthier people who could accept eachother based on our morals, values and respect for each other and let the other things be our own personal business.

      1. Norma Battes's Avatar Norma Battes

        I only started reading your posts and I'm loving it. You go girl! (No disrespect.) 21 more to go.

        1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          Thank you...and no disrespect taken at all. It has been years since I was called a girl lol. I may be able to publish a small book with just my comments but I appreciate the feedback. Thank you again

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            agreed i used to teach english as a second language for women at the local college. there were msulims there, japanese, chinese, philipines., venuzuela.. all sorts of wonderful people from different countires and cultures. they were beautiful people !!(and ironically, i spell worse now then then. bahahah))

  1. Paul D Gilbert's Avatar Paul D Gilbert

    All religions are imperfect as are their leaders and followers. Like all organizations, religions need criticism to improve. I don't think a billboard is the best way to influence people but, as Audra said, this is free speech.

    1. mega's Avatar mega

      Well said, paul

    2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Thanks for your contribution, Paul. As we can all see, criticism is often not well received....

      “Scriptures, n. The sacred books of our holy religion, as distinguished from the false and profane writings on which all other faiths are based.” ― Ambrose Bierce, The Unabridged Devil's Dictionary

  1. Minister Greg Harden's Avatar Minister Greg Harden

    Since most of the claims have been proven by their own faith and writings,they can't deny these facts. But the Billboard is just plain stupidity and hatred and the owners of said Billboard should not have allowed this to be placed. It's just someone's way to promote hatred and violence in the world and bring attention to their own cause and beliefs. The person or company that owns this Billboard should have been smart enough to realize what was going to happen once this was done. Reread the Bible folks. May God bless us. Thanks.....

    1. Jim V's Avatar Jim V

      I agree with every word of this post. C'mon people - it's not a matter of whether they could erect such a message, but rather, if they SHOULD. What is there to gain by widening the chasm that is already almost uncrossable? The vast, VAST majority of Muslims today would condemn every single one of the things posted on that billboard. This is a person that lived 1500 years ago. I'm no religious scholar, but I feel confident in saying that there are many things in many religions that were acceptable 1500 years ago that would be condemned today. Sure - there are extremists who want to cause harm and death to good people - but you can find those people in every religion, every race, every creed, every country in the world.

      Why, why, why do we have to constantly paint the masses with a broad brush that only applies to the very, very few? There are bad people everywhere - but we can't keep lumping everyone together based on the actions of a few.

      1. Sheila's Avatar Sheila

        Reminds me of a story, that all of us have heard or read. A frog was placed in a pot of cold water and over time the heat was Gradually increase the frog did not notice and died. There is a true threat, and all is not innocent, I truly wish it was not so.

    2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      I agree with your advice about spreading hatred and violence, but encourage you to research whether what's on the billboard is accurate. BTW, I'm an atheist and am not defending Islam or Muhammed. Participating in this forum confirms that accepting beliefs as reality and truth is the path to delusion.


  1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

    I agree with Mr. Harden, that most of these claims have been shown to be historically true. I also agree with each of you that the billboard is protected under the Bill of Rights as freedom of expression and as well just public dispensation of information.

    What I do not see is the promotion of hatred that so many of you thus far assume. The ones that view it this way are the Muslim community their-selves. All the billboard says are facts. Also how many people currently and historically could fit any if not most of these implications? Seriously.

    I had to read into the article to actually realize that this billboard advertisement was referencing Mohamed. I knew of these statements about him but looking at the list, I would not have known who this "Perfect Man" was. I actually thought it may have been promoting some Strange or Evil behavior. Truth be told.

    Here is the thing, just based on my assertions about this billboard, the fact that the Islamic community is outrage that someone put in public the shortcomings of their great and noble prophet indicates that well, Mohamed is all those things and more. That he was a corrupt and debauched man. Also, they are overly sensitive. "How dare you imply our prophet is fallible?!!" It sounds somewhat like Islamist attitude toward Denmark and the french Newspaper "Charlie". So, are they going to organize a bombing of the Billboard company offices? Will they find the people who wrote and payed for the ad and behead them? I pray not.

    If they do then it is obvious that Shariah Law is incompatible with Constitutional Law.


    1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      Truth is not politically correct. It does not discriminate against nor show respect for anyone. It just IS. Some people call truth HATE, but only because they hate truth.

      1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


  1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick


    Consider this.

  1. Memirsbrunnr@RobV (@Memirsbrunnr)'s Avatar Memirsbrunnr@RobV (@Memirsbrunnr)

    If you get offended by factual truth there is not something wrong with the facts but with you.. You can't handle the truth. I think that the misleading message of islam is the religion of peace is obviously false, that title belongs to Jainism where the more extreme and fanatic you are in your beliefs and dedication the more peaceful you become. ( contrast that to fanatic islam, which goes you say something awe don't like? Off with your head), and the weakened down version; islam is A religion of peace which is still highly debatable as arguably, islam is the most violent religion at the moment. All the claims on the board are arguably correct. Stating facts is NOT hatespeech, the correct approach for muslims is, to actually work on showing in ACTIONS they are a religion of peace.. They never do, it's always the good old They are not real muslims (not a true scotsman fallacy) or we are the real victims.. People in London get blown up or driven over and the main response from the muslim community is.. Oh no how will this reflect on us poor muslims.. As long as you religious keep on terrorising your neighbourhoods like they do here in Europe by spitting and calling girls a whore for wearing short skirts, and walking on their pavement, and don't act proactively in acting like grown up educated people. It is perfectly OK to confront the average muslim, with their bigotry hate selfishness and unwillingness to behave as grown up members of society, that work instead of demanding and then pulling welfare as they excluded themselves from working by wearing extreme Islamic garb, so they know no one will hire them and then they can blame society for acting racist.. At the time I could not get a job for wearing punk clothes, so I grew up and acted as an adult changed my ways and got teh job I wanted. Freedom of religion is NO excuse for a state/society payed life long welfare check.. Lets safe that for people who really can't work, not just those that use religion as a tool to parasitize on society because they make themselves wilfully unemployable.

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      Thank you Rob. You have many valid points. I can read your valid emotion and frustration in your posting. I can agree with you. We have some of the same here in the US. I too like you once wore punk clothes. Usually on the weekends, (Not a real punk, just did what needed to be done for what I needed to then do.) However, it should be noted that in the US a person has the right to wear religious clothing, except for when said clothes will or could be the cause of harm to self or others like when working around chems or fire no loose clothing like that of Hajibs or long skirts. Beards and long hair must be tied back and covered in a net in food service or medical. It is just that. Plus if you are concerned of having backlash from coworkers which is also against the law, you have the protected right not to disclose even by clothing, your religious or ethnic life. The opposite is true to, you are also so protected if you do. If you cannot conform to the safety standards you cannot work their no matter who you are.

  1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

    I can't see that it mentions Muhammad by name. If people know of whom it speaks, they should not be angry about it. If it was speaking of one of my prophets or ancestors, I would not be angry. I would be ashamed, as should those who are offended. I do not think this billboard promotes hate. I think it exposes the roots of the hate that will and should exist between those who claim to follow the teachings of Muhammad and everyone else. It is "lifting up the serpent", which refers to exposing the works of evil. There is absolutely no justification for anyone to see Muhammad as anything other than a bloodthirsty, self-indulgent, violent, petty, evil man. No person anything like him could have a following today, except among the Muslims. No one else would want anything to do with him. I think the billboard is hilarious. If the followers of this man are offended by truth, they certainly should be following someone else. Saddam Hussein was a pig, but more virtuous than Muhammad.

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      My point exactly John.

      1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

        HEY are YOU TWO G U Y s, SISSY BOYs, JOHN + JOSEPH *****

        1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

          Moderators I would like to report harassment!

          1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

            MODERATORs CK* WHO FIRST WROTE the WORDs [ SISSY BOY ] Thank YOU !!!

          2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Poor Mr. Maher. We must overlook the obvious deficiencies in his medication and give him the attention he so desperately wants. Hi, Mr. Maher. How are you today?

          3. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

            Thank U Mr. OWINS, I am in DIRE NEED of ATTENTION BUTT NOT BY U or UR SISSY BOYs, for WHAT it's WORTH DUMP the tRUMP

          4. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Dear Mr. Maher, I truly hope you don't speak the way you type. If you do, please know that I would not look down on you for that. I might not seek out your company, but I would not look down on you. I'm guessing you type strangely so that people will notice and read your comments. You don't really have to do that though. I believe they will read them, anyway. I will, just because I want to understand you. I'm just saying.

          5. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Thanks to encouragement by yourself and others, Jack***, Mr. Maher, Inga and others continue to shower us with their random, sometimes delusional thoughts. Why not just scroll by and encourage their exit?

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    In this world everyone is entitled to his/her opinion...when it is analyzed, objections to the opinions of others simply demonstrates a lack of faith in one's own beliefs

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      Good point Tom.

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

        Joseph...thank you...we waste too much time believing there is a point to trying to judge...Tom

        1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

          GOOD POINT, JUST WHAT is the POINT, WHO are YOU or WHO are WE to JUDGE ??? JUDGE this, DUMPthe tRUMP !!! HE WILL NOW BE JUDGED N O T by GOD but BY HUMAN DECENCYthat WHICH HE DUMP the tRUMP has N O N E !!!

    2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      Well said Tom....my parents always taught me that a need to make others feel inadequate and judge them for the sake of ridicule, it is usually just a small glimpse into a mind that is plagued with a lack of self esteem and lack of knowledge and want to feel a sense of authority among confusion.

      .....A blind man will either admit he can not see or blame the wall for getting it his way......

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

        Nicely put, Joanne...it always comes back to ego...Tom

    3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      People are certainly entitled to their own opinions, Tom, but not when they're promoted as facts without evidence or valid citations.

      "Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion." EDWARD ABBEY, A Voice Crying in the Wilderness

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

        Brother John...just exactly would you censure what you call unsupported opinions?...especially since what you call "facts" are simply 99.9% derived from this illusory existence...and even if you accept the fact that people can have opinions, how would you control those opinions...1984?...Tom

        1. inga's Avatar inga

          tom .. you keep saying about this illusion.. have you ever been diagnosed with d-illusional thinking ?? do you have or understand ?? reality ?? or is all of t he world an illusion, in your opinion of course.. so you dont have to get attached ?!?!

          1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            I think I got it....and if so then it somewhat reflects my own belief and understanding which is why it seems to only be this one part that I seem to have a disconnect but I believe it the word illusion that had me stumped....so if you dont mind I am going to explain as briefly as I can an explanation of my idea of the hear and now and karma collectively and much like I was stuck because of a single word I will try to make it broad so that it will just be enough to be considered to be me having a better understanding of what you have been expressing......

          2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            So i guess I will start with my belief that "heaven" and "hell" are not places that you are assigned to upon death based on your present life. If the description of hell as stated in the Bible is to be believed then it is easy to get the sense that the "hell" or so called punishment place we are assigned to is simply the world we live in through our many lives while we search for a heightened sense of awareness and enlightenment that will one day lead us to or final destination or level of existence that is often referred to as heaven.....So starting from out time in human form, we pass away and our soul is then reunited with its "soul mates" after a period of "schooling" for lack of a better word where we take review of the previous life and essentially what lessons we take away from it.

            Since we travel through each life with the same set of souls albeit in different roles.....I could be you mother in this life and a coworker in the next, as a whole our lives are basically drawn out for us in advance. Ever have that dream where it is almost insignificant but a time later, some refer to it as deja vu, but i can actually remember when I dreamt the exact scenario I am experience. Could be as minor as driving on a street and know the car in front of you and what is happening in the next 10 seconds as it happens. I use this as my way of understand that our life has already been planned out for us before we get here, and our subconscious mind while in a sleeping state sometimes place a little fast forward by accident.

            Or lives journeys are chosen for a number of reasons. The majority of our experiences are assigned based on the Karma we created in the previous life and as a lesson in some way. It can also be accepted as a sort of sacrifice of the ideal life to either protect other souls in your group or like a get out of jail free card per say to bump up your Karma credits. This is the ideal that I ask you not to get hung up on the working but the idea behind it because I am finding it hard to find the right words t describe it to you without it being viewed as me considering it a punishment. Much like the innocent child taken much to soon. The sacrifice may need to taken in order for another member of the group to fulfill his/her karmic balance and I would like to think is indicative to that soul having reached its full amount of enlightenment and that this is the last sacrifices that will allow them to stay on the other side with no need to return to "hell. No more lessons per say.

            Therefore our need to judge others or change others is really an arbitrary matter because regardless of our involvement or not, if they are not meant to receive or gain that "lesson" in this trip around then it is pointless. Therefore, regardless of how much money we obtain or the house we live in etc, they are just "illusions" meant to satisfy our needs or thoughts of what we need while we are in human form but whether those things are present or not, our life journey and all aspects of it, good and bad, will play out either way because once again we had a full understanding and knowledge of exactly what experiences and path we were going to travel before we returned to this state of being but will not acquire a full realization or understanding of it again until we once again return to the spiritual plane of existence and everything becomes known to us once again.

            Phew...so after much pondering and reviewing your explanations in your posts....without being to critical regarding the words I chose to try and explain it in a logical manner so you can get just an understanding of what I am expressing so the same confusion doesnt happen like when I got hung up on the simple use of the word illusion which made it hard for me to gather a full understanding.

          3. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Ok i submitted however it is quite lengthy so hopefully doesnt get stuck in moderation for too long

          4. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            JUST AN FYI: The common perceptions of heaven and hell are taught nowhere in the Bible, but pre-existed the western world's knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures and what is erroneously referred to as the New Testament (the word "testament" in the scriptures is a faulty translation of a word meaning "Covenant." It does not mean a book or a collection of writings.) The famous play by Dante, in the section called "Infierno", was a SATIRE of those beliefs, many of which continue to this day, particularly in the Romanesque established churches.

            The ACTUAL Hebrew scriptures teach that when a human dies, they die like any other creature, and death is an absence of life, without thought, memory, dream, ambition, etcetera. There are plenty of scriptures regarding resurrections (yes, plural), at a time yet to arrive. These are found throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. I am not advising people to read them or believe them, just informing that most of the teaching today regarding death and the hereafter do not come from the Bible, even within churches which claim to teach it.

          5. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Joanne...you are describing "life" as it really is; including the interaction of souls and karma...and it is all basically foredained...thank you for taking the time to understand...i would do the same for you...Tom

        2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

          I posted an answer, but it was an illusion and has dissolved into light and stardust.

          1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            The concept of Karma is widely recognized within the Eastern philosophies. Although I have not quite grasped Tom's explanation and reasoning of his beliefs or is no less valid than every one elses beliefs.

            I have discussed it with my husband and tried to get a better grasp on it so I can more directly connect with him rearing this.

            When you consider most beliefs they can seem ludicrous at face value...A Virgin Mother, a commitment to complete inner peace and acceptance in ALL areas or the idea that a man can have many wives. If they were not as commonly known these too may cause use to laugh at the mere thought.

            I will say that whether we understand completely or not he is strong and steadfast in what he comments. He has not wavered from exactly the person he stated he was on post 1. So he deserves at least the respect that comes with that. At least I know I have a high regard for Tom and his ability to practice what he preaches all the way through.

          2. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Joanne...thank you...Brother John...respectfully, please try to meditate on whether when your reaction is to be facetious, is it because you have been challenged, and you are not really committed to the belief in which you are challenged?...all i ask is that you consider...Tom

        3. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          Tom, I knew that we believed in so much of the same "phenomenon" I guess i would call it for failure of a better word so I knew there had to be something i just was getting, but I wanted to...once I realized it...i understood i not only may have understood but it was so adjacent to my own beliefs that I almost felt foolish that it took me so long. Thank you for being patient as I worked it out and challenging my to look past the words to the understanding. Thats a hard yet important trait to possess so I am always thankful when something forces me to practice.


          1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Thank you, Joanne...i am happy to discuss what we know about existence, as opposed to arguing about temporal hate, attacks and a large lack of loving and caring...have a great day...Tom

  1. Gallet Christ Sampu's Avatar Gallet Christ Sampu

    Yes Tom, but the truth is how it is written in Q' ran""How many a community that dealt unjustly have We shattered, and raised up after them another folk! And when they felt Our might , behold them fleeing from it!(But it was said to them:) Flee not , but return to that (existence) which emasculated you and yo your dwelling, that you may be questioned. They Cried: Alas for us! Lo! We were wrongdoers. And this their crying ceased not till We made them as reaped corn, extinct.

    Brothers and sisters , so ''To Him belong whoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those who are near Him are not too pound to worship Him nor do they weary; they glorify(Him) night and day; they flag not.

    So let do the same all of us and the blessing will spray upon all of us!!!

    May God bless all of you!

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    Gallet...i agree it is not in good taste...but unless something violates what early America called the Alien and Sedition Acts, it is free speech that should not be censored...and quoting some form of scriptures in English, when there is no official translation of the Q'ran, is irrelevant...if you want to state something relevant, state that we should all do to others as we would have them do to us...that is the only commandment necessary; loving others is the only point to life...whatever else goes on, is karmic balance...Tom

    1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      I am all about free speech and I understand your point Tom but lets assume you live in a neighborhood and are raising them in the Christian faith. You come home to find a billboard that reads, "Do you know your Neighbors" (again making things up as an example) They will gather with your families and children and for cults around the teachings in the Bible....The will marry your teenage daughter....They will practice "spiritual weddings" and bed the God-chosen children of all ages...When they find themselves ready to be sent to jail, they will convince you that it is time to kill all of Gods loyal followers.

      These are the acts of David Koresh, "loyal christian leader" he claims. This is not a accurate description of the Christians that I know and therefore they may be facts but does not represent the people of the faith and if this is a community of mostly non-Christian families it is simply placed to spread hate. It puts people in danger for only the sake of spreading hate.

      I find it sad that as a human race we havent evolved past destroying others for things we dont understand and on to a place where each person ill be treated as an individual and not stereotyped for any reason, based on the acts of some.

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

        Joanne...everyone should be treated with love and caring...religions, in my belief, are rigid and not helpful...they set up rules, which are just another way of being judgments...we are all part of God, and we should treat each other that way...obviously some people appear difficult, but that does not have to change our approach to "life"...Tom

        1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          I have the similar view of the word "religion". I have a problem with the idea that a room full of people can actually believe all the same things. Thats why I believe being spiritual and religious are two separate notions. I post a blog on an affiliated site comparing Bling Faith and Learned Compliance and was not surprised it didnt get as much feedback as some of my others. Its a hard mirror to look in sometimes.

          1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Hi Joanne...i enjoy your writing, and agree with most of it...i certainly agree that being religious in no way defines being spiritual...also, there is a difference between "believing" and "knowing"...we seek to "know" the peace that is there beyond all ego and physical existence...let me know the web-sites to which you refer...have a good day...Tom

          2. Ken's Avatar Ken

            I like that term "Bling faith". They wear it like a cheap trophy.

        2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

          This one's for you, Tom and Joanne. Who's says atheists can't be funny and enlightened at the same time?


          1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

            RIGHT ON BROTHER JOHN !!! DUMP the IGNORAMUS tRUMP,GOD is GREAT so is the UA of A

          2. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Brother John...i certainly agree atheists can be funny...but i need to know your definition of "atheist", in order to comment on "enlightened"...Tom

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            but tom.. people dont need to tell that ??!! one is supposed to keep all comments strictly om the billboard. (sarcasm) or are you starting to see the relevance of who these children of god really are now. awesome. the coffee is perking. people are starting to smell it !!

          4. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            I find this accurate and clear, Tom. The most common misconception is that atheists do not believe in gods. This is incorrect.

            "Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

            Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”" Source: American Atheists

          5. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            I think the problem is an understanding that Atheism and Agnostic are 2 different things

          6. inga's Avatar inga

            when i grow up i want to be king !!

          7. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Just noticed the mistake in my reply to you, Tom. Should have been "the most common misconception is that atheists deny the existence of a "god".

          8. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            Inga commenting on the billboard and any aspect of the meaning or reason for the billboard IS the topic to be discussed here. So its not my way or Toms way or any other individuals way...its the premise and purpose for a blog discussion following a news article. Hows that higher than though IQ treating you now (now that was the "practicing" Buddhist kind of response I was mentioning before. Not temporary insanity, yet inability to remain tolerant when confronted with such a question with an obvious answer....oh but doesnt suit you, yet I am the one who insists others think like me.)

          9. inga's Avatar inga

            i dont have a problem taking on your angry comments joanne. or your delusions that you represent that room ??lol

  1. biblical scholar's Avatar biblical scholar

    Liberals need to stop OBSTRUCTING President Trumps travel ban before Obama and the rest enact shariah law!

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      How is President Emeritus Obama supposed to enact Shariah Law?

      1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher

        for the MOLEMAN and Joseph Er Knopick, YOUR PRESIDENT DUMP the tRUMP would LOVE to INVITE YOU BUDDIES to the W H, EVER BEEN to HOLLAND GUYs ???

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          I'm sure the Dutch would welcome you with open arms, Mr. Maher. Your name sounds Dutch or Walloon. You might consider moving there.

  1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

    Sadly, all of the statements on that Billboard are absolutely true, and reflect historical FACTS I've personally studied!

    I knew immediately it was referring to "The Prophet Mohammed".

    But least it's "Christian" Cantor become all too self-righteous, please re-read the horrors of your own "Holy Book" (The Bible), and all of the sorted deeds committed on disparit Tribes by your own brethren... "In God's name"!

    It took Religious Wars and a huge and very PUBLIC schism, and later the horrors of the Inquisition, for Christians to finally Protest (where "Protestant" comes from), then divide, and then (mostly) civilize Christianty!

    Sadly however, even today, too many so called "christians" would still embrace the "christian" version of Shariah Law if they could; even today!

    This is why we must never surrender our Separation of Church and State!!

    ...Least Islam (as evidenced by the Actions and Rhetoric of far too many), and Christians (those who believe the Bible is "The Unerring Word of God"), and so many other Religous Zealots, take over all Religious discourse, and even civilized Society itself. We must reign in and check what these insane "Believers" would perpetrate on Humanity, if given the chance, and the opportunity to become even more self-righteous and controlling; and by our complacency!

    Religious "Freedom" ends when it would inflict itself on Society or on any group or individual.

    Christians targeting Islamic horrors and excesses, seem to have forgotten their own "Legacy"! The Bible says, "God (and Seriously?), commanded Moses to slay all of the Canaanite Men (among so many other WARRING TRIBES they fought "Holy Wars" against, and utterly destroyed "In the name of God"), and seize all of their land and possessions (always Follow the Money to the Atrocities), but keep the young girls and any woman who have not yet known a man for yourselves (as sex slaves; because Jews could not marry any non-Jews, and "The God of Abraham states clearly how to treat your Human Slaves), and give the first (read best) 10% of all captured treasure (where Tything comes from), of all the (stolen) Spoils of War to the Priests".

    Perhap Islam is ready for their own Schism, for a Michael Cerularius, or Martin Luther, to Protest (or at least for SOMEONE to speak out more forcefully in PUBLIC), and against the excesses of their Religion and the stated attrocties of their own "Holy Book" the Koran, (meaning to openly acknowledge the hidious nature of what was actually written and said in and about that book from "Antiquity" forward), and then create the same more Civilized, yet revisionist religion that Christianity has (mostly) become; that IGNORE​S what their "Holy Book" ACTUALLY SAYS (in antiquity), while embracing all the "good stuff": Or then abandon it all together, OR... Cop to what it actually says as, "True for the past, for the present, and for the future" (as the Islamic Extremists so effortlessly do, and as many of their Christian counterparts say of the christian Bible and its Commandments), and let the carnage continue...

    "In God's name"!

    CIVILIZATION as a whole, however, cannot allow any such INSANITY to continue: In the name of "God, Religious Freedom", or otherwise! We've gotten all to Politically Correct​ with all of this "RELIGIOUS INSANITY"!


    BOTH Christian and Muslim "Holy Books" are (LITERALLY) littered with Savagry, Slavery, Rape, Incest, and Genocide, and all manner of uncivilized behavior from antiquity! And carried forward by too many crazy "Believers"; because they were/are "Uncivilized", and like too many following Islam and Christianty today, are still TRIBAL in their beliefs and in their World View!

    We need to confront ALL of these Religious Zealots: Muslim, Christian, and Otherwise, and let them know the greater SOCIETY will not allow them to perpetrate their insanity on the World!

    We can no longer tolerate this!

    I myself, love ONLY Jesus, who was not trying to create ANY new Religion called "Christianty" (but only to reform the one he was already in), who said (against the Religious LAWS​ and Zealots of his time), "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!" ...And his "Greatest Commandment": "Love your neighbor as yourself. Love one another even as I have loved you!" I also embrace Lao-Tzu, who wrote The Book of TAO, which states, we are each on a PERSONAL spiritual journey (or path), and that WE are each responsible for our own actions, and that hate, war, murder, and all manner of tribalism and fear and interference with others personal path or growth (so long as they are not impeding others personal path or growth) are none of OUR business, and not a part of "The Way".

    These are​ good examples & principles, that I work hard to embrace and live daily, but "Religion" or "Spiritually" or non-Belief, should be a personal matter.

    Any enlightened being (Especially one proclaiming itself as "Creator") would never want it's Progeny to be slaves or sheep or retarded in their growth.

    It's about time we embrace LOVE!

    I believe in Religious FREEDOM, but that ends when anyone's God-Given Right to worship, or not, and as THEY see fit, as they themselves would decide (Free Association), would be taken away or otherwise compromised or controlled by any other person, or by a groups "BELEIFS", and no matter who they are, or what they proclaim themselves to be!

    I am a part of the ULC because: "We are all Children of the same Creation": I embrace the idea, the ideal, that we are all equal in the sight of God/Creation, and that we were created to share & learn & grow & prosper individually and together, and that each of us is on our own spiritual path toward enlightenment.

    Love, Light, and Freedom... Peace.


      BEAUTIFULLY expressed, THANK-YOU.

      1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

        Thank you. I am grateful for your comment!

        1. Ken's Avatar Ken

          Religion is a social construct.

    2. Jim V's Avatar Jim V

      ANYone who has read this article and is reading these comments - you HAVE to read this post. Sir - as a child of the 80s, i'm at my desk right now giving you the very coveted "slow clap". You have nailed the very essence of things in this one post. Thank you for your words.

      1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

        ...And THANK YOU for yours!

    3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Excellent post, MN!! Although I've not agreed with all of your posts, this one dispelled much of the hypocrisy we're reading from Christians demonizing Islam. There are many parallels between the Prophet Muhammed and the Prophet Moses, although Moses may have been involved in far more slaughter and carnage than Muhammed.

      As far as I'm concerned, adopting the ULC's motto does not mean that we meekly accept all beliefs. Quite to the contrary. Our obligation should be to loudly expose all who are leading others away from the path to truth and into the darkness of fanaticism, violence and hatred. I believe that the namesake of Christianity was a "rabble-rousing" Jew who loudly and publicly spoke the truth, no matter the consequences.

      I look forward to more enlightened posts from you.

    4. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      Beautiful.....Light and move to you Minister Norman

      1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

        Haha and I need to check before I post....That would be light and love....You dont need to move anywhere if you dont want to lol

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    Rob...neither you not i nor anyone else knows the "facts"...Islam, like all other religions and alleged "facts", is an illusion...do you think you are Jack Nicholson?...when we judge we are abdicating our heritage as loving, caring beings..."facts" are intellectual playthings, and accomplish nothing...Tom

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      The Golfer?

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

        Rob...no; the golfer is Mikkelson...i mean the Navy trial movie...Tom

        1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John


      2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens


    2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      Well put Tom,

      People forget that any kind of belief we have and how strong in our conviction that it is the true understanding of God, there is no way to inconclusively know for sure we are right. Not wile in human form at least. Thats why the anger and berating of others for what they believe seems fruitless to me. At least with out the hate and judgment of others to follow you into any afterlife I am pretty sure choosing to find peace in your heart by at least having faith and believing in a divine being will carry much more weight than simply which holy book we choose to read.

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

        Joanne...i agree with the tone of everything you are saying...i so suggest that we are a part of God, and we can get beyond belief to the knowledge of the eternal peace, by removing all of our ego blocks...and i do struggle with accepting it is difficult to feel certainty while we appear to be in physical form...my son always tells me i am just wasting time trying to reach a knowledge that is not reachable in our form...Tom

        1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          If we stop seeking further knowledge and understand of anything; then there really is no point to our existence. our subconscious holds all the information and knowledge we have attained during all our past lives as well as the information regarding the afterlife and what happens to our souls upon existing the human realm. Therefor I believe that the more we try to learn the true with emerge as we seek it. When you find a passage or a quote or a verse that somehow answers even the simplest of questions and you all of a sudden have found something you had been looking for, you know it it is true because your subconscious mind will recognize it and allow you to understand this truth,

          I hope this make some sense to anyone, it is a harder concept to explain in writing than I had expected.

          1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Joanne...all knowledge is an illusion, fueled by ego...the way to the peace of God is eliminating all egotism/intellectual constructs...not by more knowledge...i tried that; it absolutely does not work...this is somewhat characterized by the 12 steps statement of "let go, let God"...the concept of learning in order to understand is an ego construct, and not helpful...just love and care...Tom

          2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

            I disagree, I think the more we know and understand what others believe and seek out the true meaning in what each religion/spiritual philosophies are truly teaching it removes our ego of assuming that the tiny bit of knowledge we posses and choose to believe is the one and only true way and it makes us less tolerant of others.

  1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

    Hello Minister Norman,

    Well you certainly had quite a lot to express. Did you get it all off your chest? That was quite a burden you carry. You are very right about Jesus' greatest commandment, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." Oh no that is not what you said was his greatest commandment, You called the Second commandment "Love your neighbor as your-self" Then you said his new commandment, "Love one another as I have loved you, first"

    Matthew 22:34-40 ESV, 34 But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

    In Verse 37 He Quotes, Deuteronomy 6:5. You see the greatest purpose that any man has, is the Love and Honor God above all. And these other commandments are closely related.

    You cannot in anyway by your own will, do all these things. You will fail at least one if not all these commands. As it is also written, If you break any of the Law you break the whole Law. You see it is therefore impossible to keep any if not all these commands.

    Jesus is more than just a teacher. He is not just a prophet, as Muhammad so claims to be. He is more than a protester which he actually wasn't. He is the Word, the Word that spoke the whole creation into being. The one true power Word that works miracles, and raises the dead. He is the Word that breathes life into Adam. The Word that became flesh. (John 1-3) John 3:16, God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten (born) Son, that who ever believes in the Him, will not perish (Eternal Death) but have everlasting life (with God). This is done not because you love God, which you never ever have, not because you loved your neighbor, except most likely for self interest, and you have done more harm to yourself than actually loved yourself, It is by Grace, the Holy God of the universe has given by forgiving Grace, you an unholy slave, the right to be Prince and Heir to the throne of Heaven. Why, because he went to the cross, He became the Lamb that was slain. (Isaiah 54/ Revelations 5?? [not really sure exact chapters])

    The point is Norman I know you can put in your full effort but, with out the Grace of God, you'll just be spinning in the mud.

    (PM me in the ministers network forums and message boards if you want to have a private discussion, anyone is welcome even John Maher)

    1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

      Joseph E Knopick

      Well you've certainly had quite a lot (of self-serving, self-righteous dogmatic religiousity) to express!

      And as if you're the sole "Authority" for us all! You also seem to have appointed yourself "Moderator", and over practically Everyone's Posts... So while I've said my speel, you obviously haven't quite gotten the half of it "off your chest"!

      Man, that "Hairshirt" must be heavy!

      Joseph, I'm a Philosophical Taoist (not a Christian), but one who loves the (unembellished) Teachings of Jesus (among others), and who otherwise has little use for fear-based Religous Beliefs and Dogma. So please, go "Tract" the gullible.

      I was once as you are, affraid of an ANGRY-JEALOUS-VENGEFUL-GOD, but then I realized that whatever created me, gave me a brain, and after reading the enlightened Book of Tao, I was truly "Born Again!"

      Sorry Joseph, you'll need to "Spin in the Mud" all by yourself!

      1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          I thought you said it had been a long time since Jesus had spoken to you.

          1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


          2. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

            @ John Maher, Even as you are involved with this and reading, typing and being quite rude? So which Jesus are you speaking with now?

          3. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


          4. John Owens's Avatar John Owens


    2. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


    3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      It's hypocritical for you, of all people, to chastise Minister Norman for the length of his post, Joseph ("Well you certainly had a lot to express"). Scroll down to your June 18 4:33 am post for a comparison. You may want to activate your auto scroller to avoid finger cramps.

      1. Minister Norman's Avatar Minister Norman

        Thanks Brother John,

        Very accurate, and extremely funny response! Still laughing!

  1. Loren's Avatar Loren

    So Mohammed was real. No historic record of Jesus. Anybody know about Buddha ?

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick


      1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick


    2. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      all three were real

    3. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


      1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

        They are all real, religious mentors sent to spread the word of God for the people of their time and in a relateable way to the people they were teaching....

        Buddha was not fat LOL that was a misinterpretation by Westerners and the big jolly representation of Buddha is actually a Hindu God of Luck (Rub the Buddha belly).

        However the true Buddha was quite thin and although the image of the happy chubby man seems to be the one that we keep clinging onto and I guess the image is merely the representation for a person to relate too and with my knowledge of Buddhism I would only imagine that the Buddha himself finds this depiction to be fun and humorous and would not be upset by this.

        The Buddhas birth name was Siddhartha Gautama, his father was the chief of the Shakya Clan, for all sakes and purposes making Siddhartha a prince, who shielded his son from the disease, famine and evils of the world outside the walls of their kingdom.

        Long story short he once saw realized he needed to see the outside world to where he quickly encountered an old man, sick man, and a corpse. He realized he could not live the way he was while this was happening outside the castle walls. He too was on his own spiritual journey that later brought him to full "enlightenment" which earned him the title of being the Buddha. Jesus and Mohammed are names of human men, Buddha was a human man but Buddha is actually a term or title that refers to a person who has attained full enlightenment. Much like the Pope....his name is not Pope (sorry could not think of any other example lol)

        So the teachings come from the Buddha, born Siddhartha, as what we know about Buddhism philosophies today. Buddhism was never supposed to be put into written text. Buddha believed that all information and knowledge regarding the ideas and meaning brought to our children (and well anyone really) should be taught in a setting where there is communication and questions and answer rather than relying on written rules telling people how to live. Of course that is not enough with some people so of course these stories also eventually found their way to print but not quite in the same way as most holy doctrine. If fact when told he needed to write down he "rules" of Buddhism for future generations when he is gone and since no seemed to not be an answer, the first written "rules" are rather comical lol.

        So after this probably way to much information explanation; there are records that prove his existence however they will not be a record for anyone named Buddha.

        In the end though, I still think faith has to be something that you just know is true and your heart and soul connect with these truths. The persons name or whatever means or metaphor used to help me understand and find my truths are just the vessels that hold our faith. So whether jolly and fat or thin and frail the message is the same.

      2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        LOL! That was a funny one, Mr. Maher!

      3. inga's Avatar inga

        more to love.. thats what we call it here in these parts. lol.

    4. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements.

      In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that "apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like," there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.[1]This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him "great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life."[2] He concludes his letter by asking, "Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?"[3] The answer to this question is, "Yes, such collateral proof is available," and we will be looking at some of it in this article.

      Evidence from Tacitus

      Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."[4] Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

      Nero fastened the guilt ... on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of ... Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome....[5]

      What can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

      But what are we to make of Tacitus' rather enigmatic statement that Christ's death briefly checked "a most mischievous superstition," which subsequently arose not only in Judaea, but also in Rome? One historian suggests that Tacitus is here "bearing indirect ... testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave."[6] While this interpretation is admittedly speculative, it does help explain the otherwise bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal.[7] How else might one explain that?

      Evidence from Pliny the Younger

      Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.[8] Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.[9]

      At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

      They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food – but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.[10]

      This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, "as to a god", as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth."[11] If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

      Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians "bound themselves by a solemn oath" not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny's reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the "love feast."[12] This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely "food of an ordinary and innocent kind". They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing "ritual cannibalism."[13] The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus' teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.

      Evidence from Josephus

      Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ."[14] F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."[15] And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that Josephus actually penned this passage.[16]

      As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:

      About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he ... wrought surprising feats.... He was the Christ. When Pilate ...condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared ... restored to life.... And the tribe of Christians ... has ... not disappeared.[17]

      Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.[18] But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.[19]

      For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!

      But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus' later reference to Jesus as "the so-called Christ," a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical record. It increasingly appears that the "biblical Jesus" and the "historical Jesus" are one and the same!

      Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud

      There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200.[20] The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:

      On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald ... cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."[21]

      Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus.[22] So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do.[23] If so, Roman involvement changed their plans! [24]

      The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?

      Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus cast out demons "by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."[25] But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus' miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching.[26] Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.

      Evidence from Lucian

      Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

      The Christians ... worship a man to this day – the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[27]

      Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."

      Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!


      Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

      I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative "life of Jesus!"

      1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

        They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

        Pliny the younger to Ceasar Trajan 112 AD

      2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Another epic post, Joseph!! Looks like you were up all night writing it (posted at 4:33 a.m.) You say, "Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says...."

        And.... "But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established....."

        As one of the self-appointed biblical scholars posting here, and based on the above statements, what's your response to Dr. Bart Ehrman, a well respected NT scholar who has devoted decades to studying extant Greek manuscripts? For clarification, do you have access to, and the ability to read these manuscripts yourself? Here is Dr. Ehrman's Curriculum Vitae as confirmation that he is speaking with authority and not just voicing unsubstantiated opinions as is often the case with fervent "believers".


        The Gospels are at the heart of Christianity and sets it apart from all other religions. Kindly focus on four sections in the lecture's timeline that contradict your stated opinions.

        8:59 The Resurrection.... Dr. Ehrman encourages us to simply read the accounts of the same event in the four gospels and compare them. Are they the same or are there discrepancies and contradictions? If there are obvious discrepancies, the accounts are unreliable and inaccurate.

        10:32 No eyewitness accounts and written decades after the events they chronicle by men who weren't the disciples of Jesus in Greek

        12:08 The Crucifixion and last words of Jesus

        17:10 Historical accuracy


        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          Pure goofiness. Four different accounts from four different people giving different details about the same events that do not contradict but dovetail. I hate when ignorant unbelievers try to tell us what to believe. Especially atheists.

          1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Straight from the apologist's handbook, John. Different accounts of the same event do not "dovetail", they contradict one another. Dr. Ehrman encouraged everyone to simply read about the same event in the four gospels and compare them. Why don't you try it yourself and let us know what you find.

            Before you get started, here's an example of what to look for....

            Lawyer: How many people were in the vehicle on the night in question?

            Witness 1: only one Witness 2: there were three Witness 3: two Witness 4: five. Two in the front and three in the backseat

            Lawyer: Your honour, there are no contradictions here. These accounts dovetail together perfectly

            What many "believers" hate is when atheists know more about their religion than they do, particularly when the facts don't match their beliefs. Carry on blissfully.

          2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Whatever excerpt to which you refer certainly isn't scripture. Maybe that was Ted Kennedy speaking about Chappaquiddick. Not sure. Still, you are taking your cues not from scripture but from critics of scripture. The gospel accounts do not contradict one another at all. Sometimes, they refer to SIMILAR events that happened in different places and times, and nay-sayers interpret those as contradictions. Sometimes, one disciple leaves out a detail that another does not. That is also called a contradiction, when it is not. One says, two thieves, another says, two malefactors. Not the same thing, but not a contradiction. In no place does the scripture say that only three men were crucified that day, so there could well have been two thieves, two malefactor, and Jesus, contrary to the Trinitarian idea that there were only three.

            I don't apologize to arrogant argumentative blowhards for scripture, but I beg God to forgive mankind's arrogance, although I have not yet reached a point to consider praying for certain ones.

          3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Those were examples of contradictions, not an excerpt, John. I agree that your examples are not contradictions. BTW, it's interesting that you call the extensive work of a well respected NT scholar who has spent decades studying extant Greek manuscripts "pure goofiness". Do you consider yourself to be more knowledgeable than Dr. Ehrman, who, by the way, spent many years as an evangelical Christian?

            Just so we're on the same page.... the Cambridge Dictionary defines a contradiction as "the fact of something being the complete opposite of something else or very different from something else, so that one of them must be wrong". My example with the four witnesses makes it clear that only one of them (or none of them) could be correct and the others wrong.

            Here's an example that involves the same event, not similar events. Some of the many biblical contradictions/discrepancies are insignificant, but this one involves the Resurrection, a key component of Christian beliefs. It's similar to the example I'd posted about witnesses being asked "how many were there"?

            Matthew 28:1: After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. Mary Magdalene and the other Mary

            Mark 16:1: When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. The two Marys, plus a third person, Salome

            Luke 24:10: When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. The two Marys, Joanna, and "the others."

            John 20:1: Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. Only Mary Magdalene

            These involve the supposed last words of Jesus....

            Matthew 27:46: Eli, Eli, lama sabachtani? that is to say, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Verse 50 says he cried out again before dying, but no mention is made of spoken words.)

            Luke 23:46: Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit.

            John 19:30: It is finished

            Again, same important event.... contradictory answers. If Christians would simply focus on the NT and the teaching of Jesus, and quit insisting that the Bible is inerrant and historically accurate, their beliefs would be more readily accepted.

            "Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." -- Frater Ravus

            "'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'" -- Douglas Adams

            If you're referring to me in your last paragraph (arrogant argumentative blowhards) you can KMA.


          4. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Regarding the accounts of Jesus' last words, and the women going to the tomb, besides making mountains out of molehills, you are assuming that if says Mary went to the tomb, that it MEANS ONLY Mary went to the tomb. The other accounts say she went also, but include other names. Now, these women were walking through a city, and chances are, their own neighborhoods. It is not inconceivable that they were joined by others. It says Salome went with the Maries to buy spices. You did not quote that she went to the tomb, so it SEEMS she went in one place and Joanna in another. (Luke 24:10) Also, most of us have more than one name, and our co-workers may call us by one, while our close kin may call us by another, so if two people telling the same story use a different name for the same person, that is not a contradiction.

            As for the dying words, the simplest explanation for the differences is that different people actually did hear different things, or remembered different things.

            Long story short, this "expert" you mention (you only mention him because his teachings back your point of view, and reinforce your vain opinion that you are right, not because you are actually studying to LEARN anything) is LOOKING for contradictions because he wants to appeal to people like you, who are easy.

            The fact is, none of these things affect the general narrative, that God became a human and showed us that a human CAN live without sin, then allowed Himself to become a sacrifice to save us from the second death, and THEN rose again to live forever and set up a Kingdom on Earth in which resurrected humans will live and peace will reign.

          5. Ken's Avatar Ken

            Mr. Owens, Your quote I don’t apologize to arrogant argumentative blowhards for scripture, but I beg God to forgive mankind’s arrogance, although I have not yet reached a point to consider praying for certain ones."

            You need to start praying, for yourself.

          6. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            I appreciate your concern, Ken, but you're still full of digested beans. I do pray for myself. I pray for my family, my co-workers, and I pray for our country, our leaders (I even used to pray for the Kenyan, and not that he would die, either, but that he would make one or two good decisions), and that God's Kingdom will come to this Earth.

            I guess you think that remark about arrogant blowhards was hate-speech? If so, you don't know what hate is. Hate is trying to or wanting to physically hurt people just because they are different. That's what hate is. Hate is wanting to take what belongs to them, because you think YOU deserve what they have.

            You think everything I say is awful, because I disagree with YOU. If that is any way to measure kindness or goodness, that would make you God. Kinda goofy, you have to admit.

          7. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


          8. inga's Avatar inga

            hey. how do you know i am not toying with him.. blink blink.

          9. John Owens's Avatar John Owens


          10. inga's Avatar inga

            i ll just be over here watching the 2014 live talks out of la with john cleese and eric idle. oh man this is hillarious. did you know cleese put a book out.. "so anyway: oh my, i want to read that one. thats now on my to list. they are doing excerts from it on stage. priceless.

          11. inga's Avatar inga

            i have the greatest job. the customers fuel me.. while i fuel them.. lol.

            this guy just came in. a younger one.. early 20s. we were talking on beer, being friday. yeah he says. but i lost my licence.. me: good for you.. you can drink more now. him: yeah. (in realization), i have a DD, (designated driver) me: yeah. its hardly a punishment !! think of it more as a .. graduation party !! you may never want your licence back. you may keep the chaufer and move on to bigger and better things. its the worlds way of throwing you a bone. alls you have to do is say thank you, and run with it.

    5. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

      Plini the Younger to Ceasar Trajan Circa AD 112

      1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


        1. inga's Avatar inga

          pst.. the email address is made public; . it says if you do your homework and find my address.. send me a post card, and i will send you one back. we can be pen pals. i like you too. dont worry. i like every body. . well. not everybody. that guy that buried the ... never mind. lets just say you cant like every body. but i like you too.

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    Loren...it does not matter if they were "real" or not...just be loving and caring...Tom

    1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

      Yeah, very good idea Tom.

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

        Thank you, Joseph

    2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      you never disappoint Tom....perfect description....

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

        Thank you, Joanne

  1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

    Below is a link that contradicts much of the disinformation presented on the billboard (and some of the posts it spawned). Ignorance about world religions in this age of easy access to information is self imposed. This is yet another example of Christian apologetics that justify and downplay the monstrous actions of their version of God and his hitman, the prophet Moses, while demonizing Allah, Muhammed and Islam. The interpretations of religious extremists of any stripe are not indicative of their chosen religion. "Knowledge and facts" coloured by bigotry and based on myths continues to fuel hatred, fear and ignorance. Of the 8+ million species on earth, none are as deluded and dangerous as Homo sapiens.


    1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      Bro John is one of those super-goofy lefties who wants to criticize Moses and God, and defend Mohammed, not because he is at all converted to Mohammedism, but to gain brownie-points with other lefties, not considering that the Islamists will enslave or behead him just to make a video. I cannot believe the willful ignorance here, comparing Yahwists to modern Muslims, even though the events of which he speaks took place 3,000 years ago, while Muslims are still doing these things today. He is truly the one fueling hatred, fear, and ignorance, and is a perfect example of deluded and dangerous Homo sapiens.

      1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Hmmmm.... now a "super-goofy" lefty. You crack me up. I'm using my accumulated brownie points to get a chain mesh neck protector later this week just in case you're right.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          As long as it is padded with leather, Bra. I think that is how the US Marines got one of their nicknames, Leathernecks, because of battling Moslem pirates, who loved to use scimitars, or something similar.

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    As the Beatles said in Strawberry Fields, "nothing is real"...Tom

    1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      And Eminem wants the"real" Slim Shady to please stand up lol....

      1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

        LOL if the unreal and the real were in the same room, would then they cancel each other out?

        1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

          We seem to have a conundrum here LOL

          1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

            T minus 10...9...8... hee hee!

        2. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

          Joseph...there is no real and unreal, just as there is no cause and effect, since there is no time...everything that ever existed, exists now and will exist is the same...time is one of our intellectual pursuits that enables our egos to "function"...there are no "real" paradoxes; only ego ones...Tom

          1. Joseph E Knopick's Avatar Joseph E Knopick

            I am not sure that I should ask but What is your religious/spiritual stance Tom? are you Gnostic? Theophonist? or a TimeLord?

          2. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Joseph...i am glad to see you know Timelords...i always loved science -fiction...i assume you like Dr. Who and its spin-off...in answer to your question, i am not of a label, whether religion or otherwise...i believe we are in this illusion of "life" to resolve karmic balance in our souls, but i do not know why...i feel there is no such thing as time, but it appears real; especially since we seem to reincarnate so much...i believe we have fellow-traveler souls, and we have different relationships with them in different "lifetimes"...i try to realize that in this perceived existence i can not understand everything...sometimes it works...ultimately, i have realized that the only real meaning comes from love and caring...thanks for asking...Tom

          3. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Well said, Tom. It's been said that Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once. Time is the basis for our three dimensional "reality". Always moving forward towards "the Future" with Now instantly becoming the Past, when, in fact, Now is all that exists.

            Here's Dr. Carl Sagan explaining dimensions and the existence of a fourth, and likely many more dimensions that we simply cannot comprehend in our 3 dimensional construct. Around halfway mark, he illustrates this when the two dimensional entity cannot explain "up" to his fellow Flatlanders as it's beyond their comprehension.

            This parallels all of the deities humans have invented to explain the unexplainable.


          4. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin


            You are first person I have met in a long time that understand and shares my understanding of "soul mates"...It makes sense now why I con always relate so loosely with your comments.

            To anyone who my want to discredit such a crazy notion,; ever dream of someone and when you talk about the dream later you find yourself saying it was you but not really you. I knew in the dream but it didnt look like you. Our we were at my house, well it didnt look like my house but I knew it was? In a dream like state sometimes you subconscious that contain all the memories of past lives gets confused and mixes the lives up a bit. Thats why we recognize the person in the dream and only realize upon an awakened state that they didnt appear to be the same person.

            No way to prove that, understandable, but how do explain a 4 year old getting up on a piano bench and suddenly playing like a master......perhaps a past life knowledge that was not quite stored properly?

            Just wanted to cut off the "thats ridiculous" comments with an explanation before.

  1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John


    Not that facts matter for "true believers", but here's a link that contradicts some of what's on the billboard. A similar billboard could be erected to highlight some of the horrors commanded by the Christian version of God, along with his hitman, the Prophet Moses.


  1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

    Why have my comments been in moderation for so long? I am conused. In a different pist I had 3 that never even showed up weeks late....

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      I've had two submitted last week and not yet posted, Joanne. Is there a reason to moderate? Why not post everything and moderate if there's a complaint sent regarding an offensive post (which would involve defining "offensive"). There are a few people posting here who seem a little unhinged, but I simply choose to scroll past most times. Most of the blogs I frequent are not moderated.

      1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B


      2. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

        I sent a message to ask what the problem is. Its hard to have an educated discussion that makes sense when a comment meant for one reply posts weeks later.

      3. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

        I got a reply and the woman who answered said that often on the weekends there is no one to check the replies so they made take a little bit to go through but it should never be more than 3 days. Since mine had been in moderation for quite some time longer she was going to file a technical ticket or something like that to have it looked into. I thought I would share so anyone else who finds the same problem happening, should it be longer than 3 day (and she assured this would only occur on a holiday weekend possibly) should also reach out so they know if it keeps happening

      4. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        I'd received a note back from the Moderators that will help with our overall patience (and compassion) for their thankless task....

        "We are happy with the current moderation system, as too often the 'report' button is used as a 'disagree' button rather than to suggest the topic is inflammatory or off-topic. That said, I'll bring it up with the moderation team. Any changes to the current moderation system will be noted on the website. Regarding the approval time, please understand that we are a small team but we do the best we can to approve posts as quickly as possible. Your patience is much appreciated."

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    Joanne...from what i have read of your posts, it seems to me that nothing you say should be in "moderation"...unless posts are attacks directed at someone, they should not be censored...and types of language should be subject to the same standard...as i have said before, "moderation" is censorship, and should not be a subject to be judged by anyone, except as i have said above...and even that should not really be a restriction, as this is all illusory anyway...but in this illusion i feel that if we can not be loving and caring, at least be civil...Tom

    1. Joanne Martin's Avatar Joanne Martin

      Thank you Tom, I try not t offend anyone and use this is a place to share information; some a little more constructive than others but I am not noticing that some of my responses are missing all together. One post simply pointed out the misconceptions as I know them regarding hat the media chooses to tell us. I pointed out that Jews crucified Jesus, Priest that took oaths to Jesus have been proven assailants and sex offenders as well as David Koresh being a self proclaimed christian. So to not see the hypocrisy in the idea that we dont have all the facts regarding Islamics and Muslims is the same as saying these people represent all the people of their faith. All facts and I tried to tred lightly for empathetic reasons and it is just gone. Never left moderation and now is gone. I have 2 comments still in moderation now and I will see what happens but it is just baffling to me. I may not have presented information that some want to hear or understand but I was never disrespectful of anyones feelings. So I will keep watch. Thank you again Tom for your kind words.

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    Joanne...you are welcome...from your writing, i feel you are a compassionate person, and i have no problem supporting your right to have your comments published, and not censored...i find it difficult to believe that whoever is the "moderator" finds somethings you say are problematic...there are things expressed on this blog that are overly and unnecessarily aggressive, nasty and absolutely not empathetic...i simply ignore them, as i feel that i try to make all interactions considerate, not psychically violent...i hope you have a good night...Tom

  1. rbstms@aol.com's Avatar rbstms@aol.com

    I didn't have the time to read all the comments but when I searched for the word outraged, it only appeared twice in reference to the Billboard. In addition to being outraged at the Billboard, IMHO Muslims should be outraged by the terrorists that hide behind their religion. The younger generation needs to break away from the brainwashing and look at how ridiculous it is to kill and hate. We all die, why rush it? Turns out the Beatles were right, "All you need is love." It worked for Jesus, Neo, and Luke Skywalker. People need to live and let live with focus on innovation and discovery in space exploration (or other fun things that better society) rather than destruction.

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      I essentially agree with you, rbstms, but people should be equally, or more outraged at the attacks Western nations have unleashed upon a multitude of countries (at least 14 and counting) and their innocent civilian populations that posed no threat to them. Now, because of the understandable anger and vengeance that's created, more killing and hating has been the result.

      This is all necessary for the compliance of western populations to agree to have trillions of $$ spent on their military's as well as killing and being killed. It's the business of war.

  1. Wayne Leclaire's Avatar Wayne Leclaire

    Truth Hurts

  1. Don's Avatar Don

    Sometimes the truth hurts. If they don't like it let them go back to where they came from or do not read it. That is if they can read English

  1. calumetkid's Avatar calumetkid

    Is the statement on the billboard true? If so there is no phobia involved. There is no bigotry involved. Truth stands alone without fear or favor. It prevails in all circumstances. Falsehoods have to be altered, modified, or otherwise changed to address criticism. Truth just sits there and prevails.

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Don't ask here, calumetkid... you have access to the internet. I posted a link to information somewhere on this thread.

  1. Anner's Avatar Anner

    Any religious zealots cannot claim to be committed to "the truth" and "Facts"...You folks deal with "Faith"...There are many religions, and anybody who claims to have a lock on the truth is in error......Why not focus on your OWN spirituality, which is diminished when you try to take down others....

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Bravo, Anner! "Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions." -- Frater Ravus

  1. Mark's Avatar Mark

    "The number of anti-Muslim hate groups in America tripled last year, according to a report released Wednesday by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a watchdog organization that tracks political extremists. Between the beginning and end of 2016, the number of anti-Muslim groups increased from 34 to 101—by far the largest spike since SPLC began tracking the category in 2010."

    Notably, the steady rise in these hate groups began around the launch in mid 2015 of Donald Trump’s presidential campaign. Though the Syrian refugee crisis and terrorist attacks from Paris to Orlando may have fueled some increase in Islamphobia, Trump’s repeated invocation of the threat of “radical Islamic terrorism” and move as president to ban immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries has clearly fanned the flames.

    “The rise in anti-Muslim groups in the last year I think demonstrates just how much the presidential campaign influenced the radical right in the US,” says Ryan Lenz, a senior writer for the SPLC’s Intelligence Project. “We have not seen this level of anti-Muslim rhetoric in quite some time, and Trump has done the lion’s share of infusing the anti-Muslim movement in the US with energy, which had been waning for years.”

    Read more at:


    1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      I don't suppose you might even consider that the rise in anti-Muslim sentiment ( I won't say Hate-groups, because that is communist speech) has anything to do with Muslim anti-American and anti-Christian and anti-western and anti-Jewish speech and behavior? It's a rhetorical question but I still wonder how you will answer. I think people really over-estimate Mr. Trump's influence over the minds of others.

      1. Mark's Avatar Mark


        Definition of coincidence - the act or condition of coinciding.

        No I don't believe it's a coincidence.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          Okay, but do you attribute the sentiment to Trump having inspired it, or Trump's success to having tapped into the sentiment? I just can't believe Trump is able to manipulate people's minds to the degree that the article seems to be suggesting. I CAN believe they keep hearing people say, accept the Muslims, and trying to cover for terrorist attacks as long as possible, and trying to prevent people from criticizing Islam or terrorism, and are feeling some cognitive dissonance regarding what they see on the news and what they are told to think.

      2. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          Maher, I can't even fathom how you think Trump is using mind control. That's some kind of paranoid fantasy on your part. I get my news mostly from NPR and don't look at twitter. Tell me this though, who is controlling the minds of the morons who keep telling us to accept all the fighting age Muslims even as they live on the dole and refuse to assimilate or even work most of the time, move in groups and rape women as their religious duty? Who is controlling their minds? I mean, Obama, and John Kerry, and Nancy Pelosi, and Angela Merkel, and all who keep telling us that to prove we are Christian, we must tolerate this scourge to society. Who controls them?

          1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


  1. Ronald Dumont's Avatar Ronald Dumont

    Islam is a Cult of Death and Enslavement! Islam has been within in a self proclaimed Civil war for over 1400 years, we are just a nuisance to be killed in cold blood and enslaved by this very small demented delusional Male Dominated cult of anti-feminist child abusers pedophile cold blooded murderers!

    1. inga's Avatar inga

      shhh. tom says we are all children of good. now go sit in your time out chair til you can talk nicely.

  1. Raymond Arth's Avatar Raymond Arth

    The fact is that these practices continue today. Islamic groups take slaves, torture and behead unbelievers, kidnap young girls as sex slaves, and so on. Genital mutilation and honor killings demonstrate a deep seated religious and cultural misogyny. Many Muslims are peaceful and God fearing people. But the Muslim community has more than its share of violent sociopaths using religion to justify their despicable behaviour. Until Muslims confront this, the problem will persist. Calling them out to address it seems reasonable. Non-Muslims can't address these matters for them.

  1. eric k's Avatar eric k

    Been on this board a long time and this has been a very angry thread, I just feel if you believe something no matter what it is it should be dealt with more civilly

    I have learned a lot after doing some research about This so called prophet Mohammad. My personal conclusion is this is definitely a religion that has no room for any other, and in the end they would kill all of us if we don't convert to the Islamic faith. It is written in their Kuran. The world needs to take off its blinders this is not a religion of peace it promotes hate of everyone that is not like them.

    Its rather a simple thing convert to Islam or be killed by a Moslem.Sooner or later the world will see the Muslims for what they believe and be forced to take action against them. I think we all have a reason to be afraid of whats in the future

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Hey Eric (and others), were you wearing blinders that prevented you from reading from Deuteronomy (chapter 13) during your research? Check it out in your own bible to confirm, but here it is....

      12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.

      This applies not just to the infidels in the town, but all of it's inhabitants and even their their livestock. For the finale, the entire contents of the town are to be piled up and burned. This is reminiscent of the Nazis, but they were focused mostly on books.

      BTW, Islam's holy book is normally spelled Koran or Quran. There are a number of cities, principally in Iran, called Kuran. Carry on with your research.

  1. Bill Fox's Avatar Bill Fox

    I intently studied five translations of the Qur'an after 09/11/2001 attacks of Pentagon and World Trade Center. From a non-Muslim point of view, what is posted on the sign is not the intent of what is taught in the Qur'an. The Constitution Amendment 1, specifically does not allow the government(s) to make laws to sensor religion or religious speech. I still have infinite capacity to ignore billboards.

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Thank you for your input, Bill. I'm certain that many of the "Christians" posting here haven't thoroughly read the Bible, let alone the Qur'an, but that has little effect on their willingness to voice their uninformed opinion.

  1. eric k's Avatar eric k

    What other religions currently condone murder of none believers other than Islam?

    1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      For real. Islamists are angry all the time anyway, and who can blame them? Most of their countries are crap-holes, because they are run by Muslims and full of Muslims. Their traditional clothing style is ancient. They can't enjoy wine or liquor. Their women can't enjoy sex. They can't dance, or listen to good music, or even go shopping. They look at people who are blessed with plenty of food, water, and fun, and who are not all physically ugly, and it is no wonder they want to kill us. Misery loves company.

      1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Muslims around the world would be laughing at you, John/Jack if they'd read your nonsense. There are many Muslim countries that are now "crap holes" thanks to years of occupation and non-stop destruction by uninvited Western forces. It's people with beliefs like yours that have created much of the anger and vengeance that has fuelled their extremism. Stick with your ignorance if you like, but don't be whining about the blowback that it creates.

        There are times when you actually sound reasonable and intelligent, but then you follow it up with more ignorance and bigotry. Perhaps you should follow some of the advice you've dished out to Mr. Maher.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          Geez, Bro John. You're gonna take advantage of my respect to star again to talk this way? OK. I see how it is.

          IF THEY WEREN'T CRAP-HOLES, WHY ARE THEY LEAVING? Is Pakistan occupied by westerners? Is Somalia occupied by westerners? How about Yemen? Liberia? Libya and Syria had no westerners for 40 or 50 years until just very recently. Oh, and then there's Iran. Hasn't been a noticeable western presence there since the Shah. Iraq? Was a black hole to westerners throughout the reign of Saddam Hussein.

          Why are you singing their song of western oppression? Saudi Arabia has a FEW westerners but pretty much maintain their barbaric ways. Yes, we invaded Afghanistan after 911. We did. They sorta made us do that, by harboring Al Qaeda.

          Bangladesh, Morocco, Egypt, where's the terrible western scourge there? I really don't see what you are talking about. We didn't fuel their extremism. We failed to extinguish it. Big difference there. My ignorance? You want to blame THEIR murder on MY ignorance? How ignorant is that? Maybe you should examine your own bigotry, which admittedly is different from mine. If I am bigoted, it is in FAVOR OF MY OWN PEOPLE. You are bigoted in favor of those who would kill us all and take our land and homes and it has nothing to do with anything we have done to them. And don't think because you moved to the Great White North they won't take yours-- they'll get yours long before they get mine.

          It is not the west's fault that Hamas and Abu Saraf and the others take shelter in schools and hospitals when they launch their attacks, or strap bombs on their own children. Our own men of war would never do such a thing, but our enemies will, AND YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT. You really should know that. How can you pretend NOT to know that?

        2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

          I didn't ask anyone for respect, John, including yourself. I was hoping (in vain, it appears) that you had an epiphany of sorts (as in the past). It's obvious that you are just another deluded warmonger who swallows all the propaganda you're fed without questioning it's validity. I seriously believe you may be bi-polar as well.

          I've posted a link to an article by Glen Greenwald, a well respected, Pulitzer Prize winner journalist (his bio is also linked). Information like this is easy to find, but also easy to avoid if you choose.

          It's should be obvious to everyone why people flee terror and destruction, but obviously there are exceptions. There's simply too much misinformation and ignorance in your reply to fully respond. I'll assume you'll choose to ignore the article and carry on in a haze of delusion, so will include a few excerpts as well.

          "When Obama began bombing targets inside Syria in September, I noted that it was the seventh predominantly Muslim country that had been bombed by the U.S. during his presidency (that did not count Obama’s bombing of the Muslim minority in the Philippines). I also previously noted that this new bombing campaign meant that Obama had become the fourth consecutive U.S. President to order bombs dropped on Iraq. Standing alone, those are both amazingly revealing facts. American violence is so ongoing and continuous that we barely notice it any more. Just this week, a U.S. drone launched a missile that killed 10 people in Yemen, and the dead were promptly labeled “suspected militants” (which actually just means they are “military-age males”); those killings received almost no discussion."

          "To get a full scope of American violence in the world, it is worth asking a broader question: how many countries in the Islamic world has the U.S. bombed or occupied since 1980? That answer was provided in a recent Washington Post op-ed by the military historian and former U.S. Army Col. Andrew Bacevich:

          As America’s efforts to “degrade and ultimately destroy” Islamic State militants extent into Syria, Iraq War III has seamlessly morphed into Greater Middle East Battlefield XIV. That is, Syria has become at least the 14th country in the Islamic world that U.S. forces have invaded or occupied or bombed, and in which American soldiers have killed or been killed. And that’s just since 1980.

          Let’s tick them off: Iran (1980, 1987-1988), Libya (1981, 1986, 1989, 2011), Lebanon (1983), Kuwait (1991), Iraq (1991-2011, 2014-), Somalia (1992-1993, 2007-), Bosnia (1995), Saudi Arabia (1991, 1996), Afghanistan (1998, 2001-), Sudan (1998), Kosovo (1999), Yemen (2000, 2002-), Pakistan (2004-) and now Syria. Whew." There's more in the article.....

          I'll just touch on a couple of your other ill-informed comments.

          Afghanistan - a poor, under developed country... America's longest war to date. 16 years and counting with no "victory" in sight. #1 source of the world's heroin (as profitable as war and oil)

          Saudi Arabia - one of the world's most repressive regimes. Beheads more people than ISIS. The homeland of Islam and host to two of the most holy Muslim sites. World's #1 purchaser of weapons, mostly from the #1 manufacturer and exporter, the U.S. Funds and arms a number of terrorist organizations. Long time ally of the U.S. and the muscle that's enforced the petrodollar for decades. Why are you not spending some of your time and energy loudly demanding that your government stops openly doing business with this despotic Muslim kingdom?

          Saddam - ally of the U.S. until he started promoting an alternative to the petrodollar. Ditto for Ghadafi/Libya

          Here's your mock respect back, John. I don't want it. You should have felt some embarrassment for the ignorance you've displayed to date, but it's seems there's an unlimited supply.



          1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Bro John,

            I submit to you that it is not ignorance for me to bristle at insults. You, yourself seem to be bipolar at times. When someone acts like an arrogant know-it-all and throws insults at me, YES, I throw it back. That is not ignorant. Ignorant is thinking you know more than everyone else and that your opinion is superior to everyone else's. You change sides a lot. That doesn't make you right. Now, because of your prior military service, I will not insult you. I feel no embarrassment and have shown no more ignorance than I have been shown, as in this last post of yours, and the ones you are still posting as I respond to this one. Maybe you are taking instructions from Mr. Maher.

            As for our involvement overseas, if talk of disengaging, people start crying about "isolationists" and "isolationism". If you want to be "citizens of the world" and have a "global community", then you have to accept interference from the larger nations. You speak as if we alone affect the rest of the world. Tell me, how many of the people at that Ariana Grande concert were warmongers? How many on the bridge? How many of the people ISIS is decapitating and stoning and burning? You are using their excuses to excuse them. That is all B.S.

            It is not ignorant for someone to disagree with you and think you are full of misinformation. It COULD be mistaken, but that remains to be proven. It seems like you are starting all over with your assininity. I see them popping on my screen. That's what I was calling the bipolar stuff.

            If you're going to continue to be sophomoric, I'll just ignore you and let everyone else see your behavior.

          2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            You're not just bristling about insults, Jack***. In this case, you're bristling because the information I posted, much of it provided by a renowned, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, contradicts the hateful ignorance you posted for all to read.

            Go back up to your June 21 post (just under Eric's) and thoroughly read what you posted (I have the feeling that you simply fire off some of your replies without first carefully re-reading them). Was any of it disrespectful or hateful? Did the well researched information by Mr. Greenwald contradict any of what you posted? If so, are you able to demonstrate that your are right and he is wrong? How about the information about Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia? Accurate or not?

            You've accused more than one of us of being "sophomoric" in the past.

            "conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature"

            Who more closely matches this description?

            Keep in mind that you began this exchange (June 23 12:56). What you posted has been challenged. The balls in your court, John Owens. Can you muster an intelligent response, or will you continue to hit into the net?

            FYI.... I'm not here to "attack" anyone. I find it personally offensive to see misinformation (including ancient myths) posted as fact, along with hateful, divisive rhetoric, particularly on a "spiritually oriented" site such as this. The simple addition of "that is my belief or opinion" to a statement indicates one is open to correction. But facts are facts, and truth is truth. Denial has no effect on either. It simply opens another door to the dark world of delusion and misunderstanding. I prefer to keep those doors locked, even though the delusion may be more appealing than the truth.

          3. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


        3. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


  1. Jack Mabry's Avatar Jack Mabry

    The right to freedom of speech is our most sacred right. No religion should have the power to shut that down.

    1. inga's Avatar inga

      thats how some women feel apparently.. lol. bahahah.

  1. Rev. M. Dash's Avatar Rev. M. Dash

    To me, the billboard is objective and explosive. I think the person posting it should be challenged in court to prove these are facts citing the Islamic texts--not hearsay information. Hearsay information is litigious. Also the person should have to prove how different these practices were from other "religions" at that time. Some mormons in Utah believe in having multiple wives and marrying very young girls, in this "civilized" society. Everyone was killing at that time for "ethnic cleansing" as they do today--although they don't call it that. When black Ethiopian Jews wanted to migrate to Israel, this century, they were barred. Those that were there that went for female care were sterilized without their consent. There are millions of black Jews in the world that Israel refuses to acknowledge. I point this out to say if we want to look for the worst in humanity, there is enough to go around. So if one wishes to expose dirty laundry, just make sure you gather up all the clotheslines! I don't believe it helps in looking back, otherwise you stay back, you regress. Look forward so we progress.

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      P Miki.... thanks for your insightful, intelligent post.

  1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

    Miki is taking up for the Muslims and pretending no one really knows about Mohammed. The Muslims think they know. Isn't their opinion good enough?

  1. Minister Greg Harden's Avatar Minister Greg Harden

    Stop already. This has been discussed enough. No more. All you re doing is arguing about it. So shut up already. Thank you....

    1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      But Greg, blogs are NOT for open exchange, iron sharpening iron, intellectual growth, that sort of thing, although they are purported to be for that.

      Their actual purposes are: A) so people of like minds can meet, and then discover they have nothing about which to talk, since they agree, and B) people of dissimilar minds can argue, and C) the rest of the people who read can laugh at the drama or feel superior and above it all.

      These are the major categories. Of course, there are subcategories, also, but people love to dispute and watch others do so. Some take sides, and some don't.

      1. inga's Avatar inga

        dont forget me.. im here for the cake.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          I have your cake

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            i love you.

          2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            I get that from all the women who like real men.

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            WAIT !! you didnt EAT my cake ?? did you ??!!

          4. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            No. I'm watching my waistline.

          5. inga's Avatar inga

            i will watch your waistline too.. while i work on my "more to love" look. lol.

      2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        Hey John (or is it Jackxxx?) You forgot D. Inane Chit Chat and Flirting... no, wait, that's for private chat lines.

        1. inga's Avatar inga

          my apologies. i did not see that in the rules. what is the IQ AND sexuality or fear of in this room.. lol

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            am i taking the attention away from you john.. my apolgies.. continue. please

          2. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

            Inga...allegorically you are on the right track...remember, Archie could have his cake, and eat it too...Tom

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            lol. which would be good if that was the saying.. but the saying is: you cant EAT your cake and have it too. another group of words that has been re-arranged to fit someones needs.

        2. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

          Inga...words have no inherent meaning, anyway...and who created the Tower of Babel; and why?...Tom

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            oh no.. i love you. k yeah you are right. well sort of.. in our house, i love you is generally greeted with : what do you want" .. well it used to be.. now its just NO ! so yeah. k i see what you are saying

      3. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          wHAT, mAHER, AND mISS OUT oN YOUR scintillating CONVERSATION? tHAT would bE unacceptable. hOW'S YOUR iNFLATABLE wOMAN tODAY?

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            my son has his 27 birthday coming up here next week. he is still single. do you think an inflatable doll would be good for a birthday present ?? or would that just a touch much. lol bahahha. we can call her: dolly . bahahah. lol

          2. inga's Avatar inga

            she could be the strong silent type. like the chur... k. wont go there.. lol

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            bet this site regrets free speech/no censorship now huh ??!! bahahah. cake ??

  1. franklin's Avatar franklin

    Welcome to America where free-speech is among our rights.

  1. Tom B's Avatar Tom B

    Joanne...thank you for your comments; especially regarding soul-mates (this has no basis in romanticism; it is a kind of karmic agreement made on a level beyond what we can perceive in this world...and i agree with you about dreams...what you said leads right into the point that dreams can be drawn from what we characterize as past, present and future, even though the reality is that they are all the same...as i have said, time is an ego-intellectual construct; not a spiritual reality...Tom

  1. MJ Elswick's Avatar MJ Elswick

    For the most part I find Muslims to be abominations. They have no respect for any other religion. They have no respect for life. I am tired of hearing about women and little girls being raped and murdered by these animals. Our Father tells us to forgive but we are also told the value of our children. If these people dislike our laws and culture so much then they should be sent back where they came from and leave law abiding, tax paying Christians alone.

    1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      I absolutely agree. I don't hate them. All things are clean for the purpose for which they are made. They just aren't made to live outside of their own man-made hell-holes.

    2. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      What a pathetic post, MJ. I just checked and the ULC does not encourage bigots and delusional fundamentalists, quite to the contrary (We are all children of the same universe). Read Deuteronomy 13 (it's posted somewhere above but I'm sure you have your own bible) and let us know if it's the same god as Allah, or something more malevolent and monstrous.

      If you're tired of hearing about the atrocities you cite, quit reading the fear porn that promotes them.

  1. Minister Greg Harden's Avatar Minister Greg Harden

    Enough already. Move on already

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    i think its great where a man can put up a billboard with his thoughts. and others can respond with their thoughts. what a great place; freedom to think and to response. the billboard reflects the user.. and the responses reflect the [varied] audience. isnt this great. really.

    i am sorry that some got offended. a sense of humor is essential to the survival of people. sigh. especially in ignorance. live love laugh.

    i seen a picture of a church "welcome sign" one day. it said.

    church parking only. violators will be baptized.

    bahahah. thats a good one huh.

    1. inga's Avatar inga

      can we have cake now ??

      1. inga's Avatar inga

        ive responded to a few comments. but there doesnt ever appear to be any cake here at ULC. i am not sure it is for me. i really like cake. i may have to take this boo club off line and do a pot luck or something. its not as much fun without food.

        1. inga's Avatar inga

          book club... boo*K club.. argg. not boo club.. lol.

          1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Freudian slip?

          2. inga's Avatar inga

            where is your post reply button.. ?? no no freudian slip. it was purely accidental. but i could keep the guy employed.. lol. bahaha. OOPS is my middle name,

          3. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            It will only break down so far, Inga, then it has to continue on the same line.

            Um, perhaps since you are such an effervescent personality, you might consider brightening "Brother John's" day or maybe even John Maher's?

          4. inga's Avatar inga

            ok. cake for every one named john. and everyone not named john too. shhh. wink.

  1. Minister Greg Harden's Avatar Minister Greg Harden

    This has been discussed to death. Let it go. Thank you all for all of your comments. Live and love. Thanks.

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      You don't want to take a break and engage with John and Inga, Greg? Me neither.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    do we get cake now ?? do we ? do we ??

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    john wants some cake please. lol.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    i seen another sign.. it said.. " IF YOU ARE ILLITERATE CALL 1800.. bahahah. too funny how is (s)he going to read the sign ??

  1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

    Yep. That's a hoot! I'm ROFL!

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    i had a mug once with a saying on it.. wanted. the perfect man.. (or the likes of). to do windows, laundry, dishes, etc.. and strong enough to fool around afterwards.. bahahah. hmmm

    1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

      I'd like to see your mug.

      1. inga's Avatar inga

        sure. i will put on the coffee.

  1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

    Hasta mañana, Gente.

    1. inga's Avatar inga

      no speak anglais.. lol. i say that when people come in my shop in canada too. then they go outside.. look at the sign and make sure they are in the right store ?? come back in.. point and laugh.. and say: YES YOU DO !! but wait. they are right. i do speak anglais. i no speak a spanol. so what are you hasta-ing ?? please.

      1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

        that means, "until tomorrow, people". I really must go, but I will be back. :)

        1. inga's Avatar inga

          OHHH gotcha.. we have a french thing going here.. bonne nuit

      2. inga's Avatar inga

        hey john.. (im discussing over my cake here.. i think candace from the gender equality article.. she says i dont turn her on. should i be offended by that, because really, as a straight woman. i am quite relieved. phew.

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          "It is easy to despise what one cannot have." (from Aesop's Fables, The Fox and the Grapes)

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            i did offer her cake too. sigh. and when she did not accept. I ATE IT. bahaha. adding to my "more to love" girlish figure.. wink

          2. inga's Avatar inga

            and it was good.

  1. Steve Carter's Avatar Steve Carter

    Brother John,

    I hope the chain mail neck brace isn't too uncomfortable, can you reveal your supplier ;-) I believe Neck protection against Islamic fighters by using high thick leather collars is what got the marines their LEATHERNECK nickname.

    Why are some people so totally infatuated with turning the other cheek that they are willing to have their heads cut off to prove what wonderful people they are.

    Kowtowing ( A Chinese phrase ) to Islam is the single most stupid thing any none Moslem could do. An individuals god may protect them in a civilized world but where Islam rules they will be dead long before their God pokes Allah in the eye with the holy pointed stick.

    Folks who preach diversity blindly believing it is the same as integration and equality, need to go take their places in a Miss Universe contest. Reality and the true requirements for world peace, are completely outside of their frame of reference.

    Every human has the absolute right to believe in their own god without fear or prejudice, and yes I would fight to protect that right. They also have an absolute right to protect themselves should they be in fear for their life from anyone. Islam however disagrees with both of these most fundamental human rights. The turn the other cheek indoctrinees need to get real or stop expecting the rest of us to protect them and pander to their fantasies and whining. We will all be a tad busy protecting our own necks.

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Hi Steve. Many war veterans like myself (Vietnam 67-68) find arm chair warriors sitting in their comfy, safe, well stocked homes spewing warmongering vitriol both cowardly and despicable. In addition to the 58,000+ young Americans who lost their lives in that senseless, illegal war, hundreds of thousands returned with life changing wounds, both physical and mental. There was no victory (Hanoi remains the capital of the Socialist Republic of Viet Nam), no glory and no honour. Many of my countrymen (at the time... I've lived in Canada since 1970) gleefully participated in the destruction of a beautiful country and the denigration of it's people. They were "gooks" and other derogatory terms. Now the enemy are "rag heads", "carpet riders" and "sand niggers". Things have changed, but not for the better. In addition to the chemical weapons used in copious amounts in Viet Nam (napalm, Agent Orange, et al) they've now added white phosphorous and D/U munitions. They've also made it less personal through the use of drones and missiles launched and controlled far from the battlefield.

      One thing hasn't changed though. No victory, no glory, no honour. They've been raining destruction down on Afghanistan (including the recent MOAB) for over 16 years and the only results have been; more deaths and PTSD, a potential pipeline route, billions of $$ for war contractors and protection for the bulk of world's heroin supply (just like the Golden Triangle back in the 60's).

      Here's a video of two courageous, honest veterans. Most will not want to honestly share their experiences except perhaps with others veterans. If you know any, give them a hug and forgive them for what they may have done. Have a fraction of the courage these men have for telling the truth and watch them until the end. It may not make you cry as it does me, but it should shed a new light on the GWOT.



      1. eric k's Avatar eric k

        Thanks for your service

        1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

          Ditto, Bro John.

          In deference to your presence in 'Nam, I take back any irritating, insensitive, argumentative thing I ever said to you. I was a kid when you were there. When I was old enough to go, that conflict was over. Of course, my father and his brothers, and my mother's brothers were all WW2 and Korean War veterans. One of my brothers was a bomber mechanic in Guam during Viet Nam.

          I recently visited the moving Memorial Wall with brothers from my MC. My Road Captain was Infantry, and another man who rode with us was USMC there. They met other men there at the wall and remembered the men whose names were on the wall to one another. The men who were there then, well, it was somber, almost a religious experience to watch them talk to one another. I stood at a respectful distance, and tried not to snivel.

          We, in our MC cuts and on our Harleys, were treated with respect and courtesy, which we reciprocated in spades. Bro John, I am truly glad your name was not on that wall.

          With reverence,

          John Owens

          1. John Maher's Avatar John Maher


          2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Mr. Maher, I'm assuming you think the jury is still out on you? I am showing respect for a veteran. You sir, appear to have no grace whatsoever. I pity you.

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            you tell him john. i like the part where you said to the guy " i am glad your name is not on that wall" yeah.

            (i can talk, becasue while women are supposed to be silent and go home and talk to their husbands.. i have no husband. so .. yeah. i can talk. or get stoned. either way.

          4. inga's Avatar inga

            theres a modern saying here. "the trump syndrome" we call it. if you dont like trump.. you will not like anything good he says either. the judgement will be clouded and pride will keep one from seeing the good in people simply because they do not like them. same as the police.. and any other public figure. or private for that matter .. lol.

            its a very all or nothing society which tends us to miss alot of vital key information.

          5. inga's Avatar inga

            ask your wife about that cake. i am getting fat. if i have someone to share it with.. they will be doing me a favor.. lol.

          6. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Alas, but she has disappeared. She had no desire to assimilate. I think she is in New York. She wanted to leave China but live like a Chinese among Chinese (much the way many immigrants do). If she had told me that ahead of time, she would still be in Fu Zhou and I would have saved a lot of money and consternation.

            If we allow them to make this country like theirs, to whence will people migrate in search of a better life?

          7. inga's Avatar inga

            ah to bad. i was starting to pt together a pot lock.. my cake.. her chinese food.. lol.

            ah well.more cake for me.. [watching the scale going up] bahaha. if you ever wonder how people get fat.. let this be the lesson for you. bahahah.

          8. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            Darnedest thing-- she could really, really cook. Microwave or Wok (she didn't call it that). But she could eat her food and stay really petite, yet if I ate it, it made me gain weight. Of course, I ate it. That's what I miss about her. Her cooking. She was talented in other ways-- a brilliant, shameless haggler, great homemaker.

            I am pretty good with campesino Mexican cooking-- chilaquiles, tacos de papas, tacos de hígados de pollo, a few different things. Nothing really exotic.

          9. inga's Avatar inga

            what do you think the serians would bring to a pot luck . 'cause i like trying new foods.

          10. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            My "service" doesn't deserve any thanks, Eric, but thanks anyway. I took part (although unwillingly) in an immoral and disgusting example of statism/nationalism/racism. When I returned home I was met by waving flags and "Love it or Leave it" bumperstickers. No one, including my family, asked if I was OK, although it should have been obvious I wasn't. I was, like all war veterans, a changed man. In 1969 I went to Woodstock, which was quite the contrast. In 1970 I immigrated to Canada and have lived here ever since along with my Canadian family.

            On the bright side, had I not been exposed to the rampant immorality, brutality and racism of my birth country, I wouldn't be here today. My first years in Canada were like living in an alternate Universe. I do retain some pity for those who are unable to break free of the indoctrination they're subjected to that begins in the public school system. I wonder if young, impressionable children are still required to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, with hands over hearts facing the flag? The indoctrination of children is straight out of the Nazi playbook (see "Bellamy salute").

            My sincere hope is that you, John and others take the time to watch the videos I linked and forward them to everyone you know and love. I ask you to post your honest responses to them here, for all to read, out of respect for the hundreds of thousands of lives that have been needlessly lost. Veterans should be angry, not proud. Due to the inevitable shaming and disparagement involved, only the very brave are willing to speak the truth. Support and encourage those who do.

            Do your best to help those whose minds are enslaved by indoctrination and misguided beliefs, whether it be from statism, religion, racism or otherwise, and help them break free from their mental bondage. The world is on the verge of exponential destruction and our time is running short.

          11. inga's Avatar inga

            i like tacos. blink blink

          12. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Thank you John. I hope that this exchange may have had an effect on your own beliefs and that, perhaps, you'll join me in an attempt to dispel ignorance, fear and bigotry, if even on a small, and seemingly, insignificant scale.

            Just a heads up. Unlike some who post here, I do not "shoot from the hip" or post while angry. I re-read what I've written before posting and do my best to insure what I've said is accurate. Spoken words can be forgotten, but things that are written remain on record for all to see.

            I'll guess you've made posts in the past that you'd like to retract or at least edit. I hope that this exchange marks a new chapter in our online relationship.

            I will continue to challenge those posting ignorant and misleading information that fuels the bigotry and hatred that often appears on this blog. I sincerely hope you'll do the same.

          13. inga's Avatar inga

            my bro dated a chinese gal for 10 days. during those ten days she made dumplings and all sorts of good stuff. i say he should have kept her !! my son was willing to date her... bahaha. she was beautiful and the dumplings were THAT good that the 30 year age difference was something my son was willing to over look. and me too. bahahah.

          14. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            If we can actually talk instead of sniping at one another, all of us may learn something. It may not change our philosophy, but at least hone our thought processes.

          15. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

            Sadly, you chose to post more nonsense shortly after your June 22 post. I actually believed you this time, but never again. Oh, and thanks again for your meaningless chit chat with Inga. It adds so much to our discussions.

          16. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

            You are a bi-polar freak and you no longer exist, except in your own dark fantasy.

          17. inga's Avatar inga

            your welcome. blink blink..

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    i think both the person who erected the billboard AND the muslims need our prayers. and so do i.. and so do you. and so do our neighbors. and so do our neighbors' neighbors. and so do our neighbors'neighbors' neighbors.

    to the muslim/islam community.. happy ramadan. peace be with you.

  1. Rev. Monica's Avatar Rev. Monica

    On whether or not to speak : Is it true? Is it kind? Is it helpful? Is it necessary?

  1. John's Avatar John

    Welcome to the Brother John/John Owens show. Boy, do they know how to use their first amendment privileges!

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Feel free to jump in anytime, John UK, if you have anything to contribute.

  1. John Owens's Avatar John Owens

    "Islamophobia is a cynical weapon to portray common sense as a mental illness" -- Pat Condell

    I thought that was so good I had to share it, because it pretty much applies to all the so-called phobias in modern parlance. I was once called xenophobic by a Canadian while sitting in front of my computer with my Chinese wife. He just heard the word somewhere and thought it sounded good, so he waited for a chance to use it. The word "racist" is used in much the same way. Usually the person using the word doesn't think for one minute that the one to whom they are referring is actually racist. They just think that by calling them that, they can get more concessions as the other tries to prove they are NOT racist. The tactic works, too, especially on white people, but is rapidly losing effectiveness through over-use.

    That is exactly what is going on with the talk of Islamophobia. You never hear anyone these days talk of Anglophobia, Christophobia, or Caucasiophobia, Occidentophobia, or Amerophobia, but we will, because people will use weapons similar to those used by their enemies.

    1. inga's Avatar inga

      now see having a chinese wife.. you would know that there is more eartly interpretations of heavens than just one.. lol. and that in china [some] people do have words/names for us white guys .. lol. and that retrospectively.. we have at one time or another, well earned those titles.. lol.

      ask your wife if she wants some cake.. lol

      1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

        No disrespect intended, Inga, but this is a forum for serious discussion, not idle chitchat. Carry on if you like, but some of it would be better off in a social chat room

        1. inga's Avatar inga

          why. you dont eat ?? eating is serious. ok. i will tie it back.. some people dont eat pork for religious purposes.. is that better ?? bahahah.

        2. inga's Avatar inga

          are you suggesting your information is more ?? important than mine.. dinner.... lol

        3. inga's Avatar inga

          just kidding.. but you will think of me at supper time.. bahaha. you cant live on posts alone.. lol.

          maybe if you all lightened up and ate more you wouldnt be so grumpy.. hehehe.

          1. inga's Avatar inga

            i mean really .. the guy who posted the billboard is offensive. and he should be taking it down or risk to suffer consequences that may result of his behavior. how much more needs to be said on the subject. ??

          2. inga's Avatar inga

            im kidding.. go ahead.. keep talking. ill be over here eating my steak with baked potato drizzled in melted butter, topped with sour cream, and smothered in fried onions and sauteed mushrooms. oh yeah baby.. dont mind me. you go ahead.. bahahah

          3. inga's Avatar inga

            you all make things to complicated and then assume thats the way it is. do you know what the muslims are doing right now. eating. bahahaha. at least in my time zone.

          4. inga's Avatar inga

            its really quiet.. i am afraid to ask.. but is everybody eating ?? bahahah

          5. inga's Avatar inga

            cream puff any one.. bahahah.

            we can do a food fight if you are missing the aggressiveness of the conversation... lol. bahahah.

          6. inga's Avatar inga

            i guess the proof is in the pudding. people are more peaceful when they are eating. lol. bahaha. muwhahaha.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    heres one to stir the pot.. lol. what if ?? .. white people of north america are just so threatened by ANY one from other countries in that we dont want to be exposed for what we have done to butcher the bible with re writes and exceptions etc .. even so far as portraying jesus and mary as early 20 years olds white people in pictures and in churches, that NOW most north americans believe.. ?? so its best we attack them before they find out.. lol. and ,.. for shits and giggles.. more stirring of the pot.. give you all something to do for the afternoon.. bahahah. of course mary was a virgin !! she was probably 5 years old, according to their cultural. and king david had a few wives.. just saying. lol

    have fun.

    1. inga's Avatar inga

      king david is supposed to be jesus' bloodline.. so i am thinking there was a healthy sex drive there.. or.. wait.. was it that david could not procreate and that he didnt want to accept that it was him.. and so blamed the wife and got another and another and another.. til queen sheba came to him with her herbs and spices.. mixed up a brew and after some.. &(&.. wow. she was pregnant and had his son. hmmm. maybe it is not ALL written in the (white) bible.

      and we are at risk of having to expose that. some are ready and ok with that. some arent. some see it as having lost the game, the control.. lol. others would see it as an AH HAAA moment where it further varifies the bible. not destroys its credibilty.

      they eyes shall be opened.. on some.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    abraham was thrown out of egypt because he nearly corrupted the egyptians with his jealousy of sarah. and thats in the WHITE version.. lol. after he tried to kill his son. " come with me son.. i have something to show you on the mountain.. muwhahaha." sounds like a true hero to me.. (sarcasm). moses was not white either.. like to north american pictures suggest.. this is not north american history. this is egyptian, and greek and roman,...

    i think [WE] are afraid of what will happen when the serians learn english and see what we did to their sacred book. or we should be !!

    point fingers.. we are hardly in a position. lol. except to keep the attention off ourselves.

    pray baby. PRAY.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    that broken telephone that has been re written a few times.. is a dangerous game. we can see it "our" many versions of the bible. one can only assume, other cultural religions have been "adjusted" too.

    the bigger question, or simpler one, is.. do we believe in the jewish alien named god.. ?? or not. lol. hmmm.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    keep an open mind. live love laugh. and WHERE THE HECK IS THE CAKE !! ITS REALLY HARD TO SOCIALS WITHOUT CAKE YOU KNOW !!

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    the "perfect man".. which we all know is non existant. any more than the "perfect woman", i will add from the womans perspective. but why is it so important to ignore the good one says or does because of the faults we have.

    oh wait. doesnt that discredit EVERYONE words .. here too. ?? because ii am pretty sure no one here is ?? perfect ?? mine self included. oops. yeah OOPS my middle name.

    do we not get it yet.. the concept of PRAYER. take it to god.. not the non perfect people for a solution ??

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    there is a story here, from a canadian author who went to the somaliland in the 50s. almost written like a diary. "the prophets camel bell". it was written very well in that it was her first time there, so little was taken for granted and the small things seemed extraordinary and worth documenting. one thing i learned. was i would never know that a young camel would have no problem going into and through the dessert, but try and get him to do it again.. lol. yeah. well until it was explained. see, we dont have a lot of camels here for me to learn that one. or why the somalians had enough faith in god that they need only put the meds in the pouches that hung about their necks.. they need not consume them. after all.. if god wills. thats faith. him.. different angles. its not all.. the white way. thank freaking god !!

    we should not assume ourselves to be "educated" on such limited amounts of information as this billboard. that would be a reflection of us.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    by the way. i have all the qualification of a ticket to hell. and i have accepted that. single white female. unwed mother. owner operator of a gas station general store up here in canada. completely tear a part able in a god book club. there is like 18 of the 10 yes 18.. lol. commandments broke right there,. lol.

    reality check people.

    read the book.. we are all f**** .. we dont need to point fingers at others as if that will help us. llol. nope see you in. H*LL !!

    1. inga's Avatar inga

      unless we get over our egos and start putting some effort in.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    i cant remember the name of t he book.. but the first line is: if there wasnt a god, there would be need to invent one. people need god. like we need the govt. and policing, etc. can you imagine what it would be without. ?? so the stories arent "perfect" or suiting every culture, every day. they served a purpose in their day.. and maybe will again another day, if not today.

    its all good.

  1. inga's Avatar inga

    posting between customer.s.. lol. but i really best get back to work. toodles all.

    1. Brother John's Avatar Brother John

      Holy Crap, Inga. You took "carry on" to the extreme. 19 posts in a row, many inane with little or nothing to do with this topic. Business must be really slow at your gas station.

      1. inga's Avatar inga

        lol.. no i type fast. bahaha. you must type slow ?? its all written in quite simple english. and you cant see the relevance ?? sorry about that.. lol. again. our posts reflect who we are. yours reflects you. yikes.

        1. inga's Avatar inga

          im getting your character down though john. you are a funny bird. good thing, with the freedom of speech, is the freedom to tune out too.. lol. blink blink. not sure why you are trying to make this about me and you ?? i guess so if you illiminate me, its still about you. but it is not about YOU . lol. not at all. anymore than it is about me.

          i am telling you. if you eat with people, you grow together. islam/muslim people as a whole, are NOT bad people.

          do they have a few funny birds in the pack.. oh yeah. so do we.

          good luck all. and to all a good..

      2. John Owens's Avatar John Owens